Classic elitist attitude

[wolfen69]

i found this little nugget on the debian forums:

"Consider gdebi, synaptic, and equivalent unnecessary GUI tools to be training wheels from your Ubuntu "child's play" introduction to Linux. When you were a child, childish tools and attitudes were normal. You are now using Debian, a distro for grown-ups. It's time to put away childish things."
http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?p=139633#139633

what the hell is wrong with people? some of them act like ubuntu users have the plague.

[LaRoza]

i found this little nugget on the debian forums:

what the hell is wrong with people? some of them act like ubuntu users have the plague.

It depends on how one views the system. OpenSuSE is very full of GUI tools, and is slow. Ubuntu has less GUI reliance, but there are very good tools for it. Debian (as reflected in that post) has less than Ubuntu. Ubuntu users may be unhappy with OpenSuSE's tools, why shouldn't Debian users feel the same about Ubuntu?

Note: I typically use the CLI anway, and have had CLI only setups for efficiency. I use irssi, finch, vim, lynx, and mc a lot. I do not feel like belittling others who don't use console apps, as it is just a choice. Some can feel "protective" over their application preferences, as shown by the Debian user's statement. Human nature, ignore.

[tagra123]

I agree -- none of us have the plauge, debian is fine -- so is Fedora puppy and the endless list of distros out there. Might be jealousy. I recently read an article saying Ubunu = Linux. Google for that article it was pretty good.

It was basically saying for most new users that their first taste of linux will be Ubuntu and thus Ubuntu is Linux.

I decided back with Breezy in spite of those attitudes to give Linux a try again -- I use windows only for programming for windows users now and I use it isolated within a VM.

At that time the Ubuntu and Xandros installers were the only ones I could get to easily install. I like Ubuntu and stuck with it.

[zetetic]

I agree with the post.

Point and click is the caveman way of doing things.

[jdhore]

i found this little nugget on the debian forums:


http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?p=139633#139633

what the hell is wrong with people? some of them act like ubuntu users have the plague.

Perhaps, because 90% of Ubuntu users are using Ubuntu desktop where the OS holds your hand and wipes your a$$ for you...Basically, they were trying to say that the CLI is better and more efficient so you should learn it...Personally, i believe Debian has the right to be a bit elitist.

[Ripfox]

I agree with Wolfen (as usual) this is an unnecessary load of bullcrap no matter which way you slice it , it's just some jerk-wad being stuck-up and I for one think people like that suck. :) So, hey, there's MY opinion. :)

I'm ok really :lolflag:

[Ripfox]

Reply from THEIR site admin:

The best thing you can do is ignore Rick. He'll be all over anyone asking questions about the graphical package managers for some reason. You'll get used to it. And there are plenty here that does not subscribe to his view so you'll get the help you need despite Rick firing off a broadside every time

Even they think he's a jerk.

[jdhore]

Reply from THEIR site admin:



Even they think he's a jerk.

True...Rick is an a-hole moreso than any other of us...He even ripped on me once when i've contributed much more than he ever did....

[SunnyRabbiera]

I agree with the post.

Point and click is the caveman way of doing things.

yeh but for most point and click is better then typing code for 16 hours just to shut the computer down

[Ripfox]

yeh but for most point and click is better then typing code for 16 hours just to shut the computer down

:lolflag:

[factotum218]

I just see anything to be elitist about. It's only a computer.

[LaRoza]

I now have a complete CLI installation, so you are all noobs for using any GUI's.

[kinematic]

People should just ignore RickH. He's a self proclaimed Linux elitist and he thinks he's better than the rest. Fortunately there are very helpful people on the Debian forum who are more than willing to help.

[wolfen69]

i just think that people should use whatever their comfortable with. i myself dont mind using the command line, and actually prefer it for configuring most things. but to say the gui is a childish tool is foolish. most people work in a gui environment. linux should be used in any manner that makes sense and works. cli and gui are both great.

anyway, i guess i just have to let comments like that roll off my back and not worry about it. all that matters is that we enjoy our computing experience and help others along the way.

[Anubis]

Ubuntu users and the distro is mostly hated by our own linux compatriots. Its odd and repugnant, but I think its mostly jealousy. Jealous of your prettier and more popular sibling. Same parents same heritage, but we get invited to more social functions. And because we don't spend hours staring at code, we actually get to have another life.

You have to feel sorry for people like that really.

I don't know who's worse, Gentoo or Debian users when it comes to this false sense of superiority.

Obviously this is not a blanket assessment of all users in either group, in case thats lost on anyone?:-k

[Vorian Grey]

As much as I love debian, I can't say the same for the debian community as a whole. I've learned rather quickly that their main goals seem to be arguing over foolishness and putting others down. Yes, they are elitist, and no they have no right to be. I said it there and I'll say it here, they were bypassed as the Linux of choice by the masses because of their attitudes.

[Seisen]

I like Debian myself as a server compared to Ubuntu now on the other hand Ubuntu by far is a better desktop. So really they both have their strengths and weaknesses. I personally think the Ubuntu vs. Debian B.S. needs to stop and we all need to grow up.

IMHO I think people should learn the CLI, well at least the basics, just in case something goes wrong and you don't have access to a GUI. Me personally I started off being scared of the terminal much like most users probably are and now I actually like using it and have become very comfortable using it.

[K.Mandla]

i found this little nugget on the debian forums: ...
Attitudes like that always suggest a wee bit of jealousy to me.
I now have a complete CLI installation, so you are all noobs for using any GUI's.
Ha, I have wired my video card directly to my eyeballs. It is you who is the newb, sir. :twisted:

[fwojciec]

Ubuntu users and the distro is mostly hated by our own linux compatriots. Its odd and repugnant, but I think its mostly jealousy. Jealous of your prettier and more popular sibling. Same parents same heritage, but we get invited to more social functions. And because we don't spend hours staring at code, we actually get to have another life.

You have to feel sorry for people like that really.

Now who is elitist? Now who has a "false sense of superiority"? :P

[pelle.k]

Now who is elitist? Now who has a "false sense of superiority"? :P
You can feel sorry about people, without throwing it in their faces. In fact, it is nothing wrong with feeling sorry for people that *seem* misguided. I would call that "human". (pun intended).

I guess it depends on the tone.
I feel sorry for that guy (because he's a total ******* and i think he sucks!)
I feel sorry for that guy (because he's got bad people skills. poor man!)

[mikewhatever]

"Consider gdebi, synaptic, and equivalent unnecessary GUI tools to be training wheels from your Ubuntu "child's play" introduction to Linux. When you were a child, childish tools and attitudes were normal. You are now using Debian, a distro for grown-ups. It's time to put away childish things."


To me, it looks like the poster is simply being honest and freely speaks his mind. What's wrong with that? It's been old news for quite some time, that Debian is not for beginners, so why use it if one's not comfortable with its tools? I've not used Debian and tend to like GUIs, but agree with that poster anyway.

[pelle.k]

To me, it looks like the poster is simply being honest and freely speaks his mind. What's wrong with that? It's been old news for quite some time, that Debian is not for beginners, so why use it if one's not comfortable with its tools? I've not used Debian and tend to like GUIs, but agree with that poster anyway.

Well. It's just that there is nothing childish about GUI tools. It's as simple as that. They may be restricting, in some cases, but to accuse someone of wanting to use a tool that fits the context of what he/she trying to do, is having a childish attitude; *that* is childish if anything.
This holy war of whether GUI/CLI tools are "superior" to each other are also childish, at best. Use the most practical tool for the job, period. :)

[stream303]

Perhaps, because 90% of Ubuntu users are using Ubuntu desktop where the OS holds your hand and wipes your a$$ for you...Basically, they were trying to say that the CLI is better and more efficient so you should learn it...Personally, i believe Debian has the right to be a bit elitist.

Everything is relative. I found installing Etch on a G5 PPC a very easy experience, but if you compared it to an OpenBSD install, a Debian installer would be the one which "wipes your a***". Cracks me up.

Why is Debian wasting valuable developer time on a live installer when it has been proven time and again that cli is the only way to go? Why has the standard debian installer been "dumbed down" to the lowest common denominator as compared to say OpenBSD? Talk about lowering the floodgates with the standard debian installer!

Taking off my rhetorical-hat, this elite attitude about Debian is totally bogus. The smart ones are going to use it anyway, and I sincerely appreciate using your code.

I'll have to ask Theo what he thinks about Debian. :)

It's all relative .....

[mikewhatever]

Well. It's just that there is nothing childish about GUI tools. It's as simple as that. They may be restricting, in some cases, but to accuse someone of wanting to use a tool that fits the context of what he/she trying to do, is having a childish attitude; *that* is childish if anything.
This holy war of whether GUI/CLI tools are "superior" to each other are also childish, at best. Use the most practical tool for the job, period. :)

There is nothing childish about GUI to you, but that poster had a different opinion. Are different opinions OK with you?
I remember posting in a thread not long ago, where a new user expressed a wish, that Mozilla should provide step by step instructions on how to install Firefox 3 beta. I told that user he shouldn't need such instructions if he's testing beta software, which must have offended him a bit. He said he was a Windows expert and worked in IT.:confused:
Anyway, I've nothing against GUI at all, but it's quite obvious you can't make everything available for everyone. There are countless Debian based distros with lots of GUI tools. Can you kindly explain why should someone insist on using the hardest one and ask for gui? Makes no sense to me at all.
Lastly, certain individuals like to see wars all around. They'd tell you a war is raging between IE and Firefox, Windows and Linux, or Google and MS, while in reality, all of that is simple competition.

[wolfen69]

There is nothing childish about GUI to you, but that poster had a different opinion. Are different opinions OK with you?


having a different opinion is fine, but belittling a method/person/thing is not. if he had said "i believe the cli to be the most efficient way of doing things in debian, and you really should learn it". that would be one thing. but...childish tools? i think not.

[wolfen69]

Well. It's just that there is nothing childish about GUI tools. It's as simple as that. They may be restricting, in some cases, but to accuse someone of wanting to use a tool that fits the context of what he/she trying to do, is having a childish attitude; *that* is childish if anything.
This holy war of whether GUI/CLI tools are "superior" to each other are also childish, at best. Use the most practical tool for the job, period. :)

well said.

[jdhore]

I hate to be the devils advocate here (do i? not sure), but CLI tools are something you need to learn...what happens if X or GNOME breaks? If you don't know the CLI tools you start running around trying to figure out how to fix whatever you need to fix and needing ot do a bunch of googling and the like...If you know the tools, usually you'll just be like: "dammit" and then just do what you have to do and be done...

[Saint Angeles]

you guys can all use your CLI web browser to goto ubuntu forums (or debian forums)...

i'll stick to my crappy GUI firefox.

[Helios1276]

Ok, I'm new to Linux, I haven't the foggiest how to program, I get SOME binary jokes, I seem to need help here with every second thing I do, I wasn't the nerd in school , I was the burnout pothead, I came here (to Ubuntu/Linux) out of curiosity. I stayed here because the OS kicks *** and in no small part because the people who have dragged me to this slightly higher plane of understanding were so bloody patient and friendly with me! In the roughly two weeks since I installed , I've brought 3 friends into the fold , who are loving it also.My point? If I met that dipshit or any like him I wonder would I still be here..probably not. Just an opinion not an attack..I'm sure he is just lovely in person:|:|

P.s Excuse grammar, I've been writing an essay all night and I couldn't be bothered.

[wolfen69]

but CLI tools are something you need to learn...what happens if X or GNOME breaks?
(in windows) what happens if your registry breaks? what happens if you get a virus that leaves your computer fubar? what happens when you cant install that printer cause they havnt written drivers for it yet? (get your wallet out and call me) the bottom line is, people will figure out a way, one way or the other. one does not have to be "l33t" to use linux anymore. sure it helps, but i always tell my customers (yes, i have linux customers) to go to the forums and ask for help. they have no problem with that. some people just get carried away with this whole computer thing. all people just want their computer to work. that's why i recommend linux. i myself use the command line alot, but not everyone feels the same. i respect that.

getting back to the original point of this thread, do what you do, and have a good time.
(out of "breath")

[wolfen69]

I stayed here because the OS kicks *** and in no small part because the people who have dragged me to this slightly higher plane of understanding were so bloody patient and friendly with me! In the roughly two weeks since I installed , I've brought 3 friends into the fold , who are loving it also.

wow! you didnt waste any time. good to hear. it really does kick ***

[mikewhatever]

having a different opinion is fine, but belittling a method/person/thing is not. if he had said "i believe the cli to be the most efficient way of doing things in debian, and you really should learn it". that would be one thing. but...childish tools? i think not.

Well, now you've tried to tell how one should or should not speak/write. Did you like it when you were told just that?

[Ripfox]

Ok, I'm new to Linux, I haven't the foggiest how to program, I get SOME binary jokes, I seem to need help here with every second thing I do, I wasn't the nerd in school , I was the burnout pothead, I came here (to Ubuntu/Linux) out of curiosity. I stayed here because the OS kicks *** and in no small part because the people who have dragged me to this slightly higher plane of understanding were so bloody patient and friendly with me! In the roughly two weeks since I installed , I've brought 3 friends into the fold , who are loving it also.My point? If I met that dipshit or any like him I wonder would I still be here..probably not. Just an opinion not an attack..I'm sure he is just lovely in person:|:|

P.s Excuse grammar, I've been writing an essay all night and I couldn't be bothered.

Same here brother

[wolfen69]

.

[Ripfox]

Well, now you've tried to tell how one should or should not speak/write. Did you like it when you were told just that?

No he's simply pointing out the obvious which is that this guy is an intolerant *** :lolflag:

[warbread]

There is nothing childish about GUI to you, but that poster had a different opinion. Are different opinions OK with you?


Is it ok to have an opinion about someone else's opinion, or is that a faux pas?

[wolfen69]

it's ok.

[Vorian Grey]

I've noticed a lot of old school Linux users who learned to do things on the CLI have multiple problems with the GUI. CLI will always be there and it is a fantastic tool but that's all it is, a tool. GUI is a tool as well and some people feel more comfortable using it. GUI tools don't have the depth or power of CLI tools but some people doesn't need that. They just need a simple interface that works.

It always bothers me when people from either group put down the other. Linux is easier to use now that yesterday and it will get even easier and as it does more GUI tools will be available. You can either accept that or whine about it but you aren't going to change it. You don't have to use a single GUI tool if you don't want. But others do want to use them. So please repsect other people's tools.

And yes, that last line sounds funny. :)

[Seisen]

I've noticed a lot of old school Linux users who learned to do things on the CLI have multiple problems with the GUI. CLI will always be there and it is a fantastic tool but that's all it is, a tool. GUI is a tool as well and some people feel more comfortable using it. GUI tools don't have the depth or power of CLI tools but some people doesn't need that. They just need a simple interface that works.

It always bothers me when people from either group put down the other. Linux is easier to use now that yesterday and it will get even easier and as it does more GUI tools will be available. You can either accept that or whine about it but you aren't going to change it. You don't have to use a single GUI tool if you don't want. But others do want to use them. So please repsect other people's tools.

And yes, that last line sounds funny. :)

Well said Vorian Grey,

[dptxp]

It is stupid to do things the hard way if simple means exist. Everyone using Linux does not want to or has to learn Linux in a big way.

I prefer Gnome to KDE because it is easier to use. I do not even go for synaptic if add/remove serves my purpose (it uses synaptic though). Ultimately most have to run programs, they are not into Linux testing.

Maybe I should install and use Debian using 500 floppies in text mode. That will make me an expert in Linux.:mad:

[Erik Trybom]

I've tried both Debian and Ubuntu, and I'm currently running Debian Etch for stability reasons. And I'm of the opinion that with far less exceptions than people usually think, Ubuntu IS Debian.

Sure, the artwork is different. The release cycle is different. There's sudo instead of su, and the default apps aren't the same. But that's pretty much it. If you like to customize your system a bit, there are even less difference when you've installed all your preferred apps.

However, there is one area in which Ubuntu excels and that is the community. Especially the forums. Ubuntu's forum is one of the nicest I've ever been to. Everyone is helpful and there's a general positive spirit around. There is even a big tolerance considering choice of distro and so on. Debian's forums are much less forgiving. I remember one thread with topic "Debian turns 14 today!" that turned into a flamewar within the first few posts (because someone mentioned Ubuntu).

You shouldn't judge a whole community by one forum of course, and I'm sure the people who actually matter at Debian are nice. But there are other things Ubuntu does well that makes it stand out among distros. For one thing, they listen to the users and try to satisfy their needs. Brainstorm is just the tip of the iceberg here. There is also a nice bug report system that anyone can contribute to. There is a nice letter for every release, stating the goals and strategic plans for the next release. Coupled with publicly available alphas and betas, this whole procedure makes the ordinary user feel like it takes part in the development. Mark Shuttleworth is a public figure that you can relate to, in contrast to the democratic but anonymous Debian organization.

This is part of why Ubuntu is so popular. It isn't that the OS itself is that much better than Debian, it's that the organization works with a whole other kind of openness toward its users.

[Artificial Intelligence]

You'll find elitists in every distro/OS- there's always someone/somebody who picking on X,Y,Z distro/app/lib/whatever. It's human nature...
It reminds me about this:

http://www.imageviper.com/displayimage/116959/0/pcweenies_1104.jpg

[ubuntu-freak]

I've tried both Debian and Ubuntu, and I'm currently running Debian Etch for stability reasons. And I'm of the opinion that with far less exceptions than people usually think, Ubuntu IS Debian.

Sure, the artwork is different. The release cycle is different. There's sudo instead of su, and the default apps aren't the same. But that's pretty much it. If you like to customize your system a bit, there are even less difference when you've installed all your preferred apps.

However, there is one area in which Ubuntu excels and that is the community. Especially the forums. Ubuntu's forum is one of the nicest I've ever been to. Everyone is helpful and there's a general positive spirit around. There is even a big tolerance considering choice of distro and so on. Debian's forums are much less forgiving. I remember one thread with topic "Debian turns 14 today!" that turned into a flamewar within the first few posts (because someone mentioned Ubuntu).

You shouldn't judge a whole community by one forum of course, and I'm sure the people who actually matter at Debian are nice. But there are other things Ubuntu does well that makes it stand out among distros. For one thing, they listen to the users and try to satisfy their needs. Brainstorm is just the tip of the iceberg here. There is also a nice bug report system that anyone can contribute to. There is a nice letter for every release, stating the goals and strategic plans for the next release. Coupled with publicly available alphas and betas, this whole procedure makes the ordinary user feel like it takes part in the development. Mark Shuttleworth is a public figure that you can relate to, in contrast to the democratic but anonymous Debian organization.

This is part of why Ubuntu is so popular. It isn't that the OS itself is that much better than Debian, it's that the organization works with a whole other kind of openness toward its users.


Well said sir. So well said that I have nothing to add.

Nathan

[Shakey_Jake33]

Indeed, I can only echo what Erik Trybom said.

I am using Debian Testing. There are 3 reasons for this - newer packages updated faster, rolling release, and simply because I want to learn more about Linux.

Despite my preference to the Debian approach in these areas, I am still here in the Ubuntu forums. Why? Because the community just plan rocks here, everyone tries their absolute damn best to help you out, no matter how 'newbie' the question may be.

[Vorian Grey]

This is part of why Ubuntu is so popular. It isn't that the OS itself is that much better than Debian, it's that the organization works with a whole other kind of openness toward its users.
This is so true. In the short time I've been using Debian Testing I've grown to love it. In that same short time I've grown to dislike the Debian community as a whole. They see Debian as an intellectual OS and only those willing to read and learn need apply. I agree with that in part but c'mon, not everyone is interested in being a computer geek. And a sarcastic reply such as "well, you can always use Ubuntu if you need someone to hold your hand" is not helpful.

I truly believe that if Debian had a open and helpful community such as this one they would be the OS of the future.As it now stands, I think those OSes that are debian based but focus on community, such as this one, will always eclipse it. It's more about community now in the Linux world and those who miss that fact will always be the ones on the sidelines watching other OSes based on their code play in the big game. Those noobs do count.

[ubuntu-freak]

"well, you can always use Ubuntu if you need someone to hold your hand"


Next time someone says that, just point out to them that many developers are Ubuntu users - including some Debian devs.

Nathan

[cardinals_fan]

This sort of thing is really irritating. The whole reason why there are so many Linux distros is because people want different things. I've fallen in love with Slackware based distros (if you read contrary posts from me... let's just say that I have found the path of wisdom :) ). Does this make Debian based distros bad? No! They have awesome package management and many are really innovative. Likewise, I find Zenwalk much more usable than Ubuntu. It is faster and has less of what I consider bloated junk. Does this make Ubuntu bad? No! If you want things like PulseAudio and Compiz-by-default, than Ubuntu is a great distro. Let's try for a little coexistence.

[Vorian Grey]

And let's not forget the height of hypocrisy: Being critical of someone who wants to use a GUI tool as being childish while you are using a GUI Desktop. How can you criticize anyone for wanting to use Synaptic when you are using Gnome or KDE?

[Caraibes]

I am using Debian Testing. There are 3 reasons for this - newer packages updated faster, rolling release, and simply because I want to learn more about Linux.

Despite my preference to the Debian approach in these areas, I am still here in the Ubuntu forums. Why? Because the community just plan rocks here, everyone tries their absolute damn best to help you out, no matter how 'newbie' the question may be.
I agree 100% with that, as I also run Debian Testing (and Stable on other boxes...)
I don't enjoy elitists, but I enjoy learning.
Ubuntu does a lot for GNU/Linux in general, and I am glad to hang out in the forums, and keep an Ubuntu live-cd at hand, but it is Debian only for me (well, apart from that old Xubuntu Dapper laptop...)
Anyway, I enjoy the Ubuntu Community, cheers to all of you ;)

[p_quarles]

There are some unpleasantly elitist folks within the Debian community. There are also many in the Ubuntu community, they just don't tend to last in these forums.

That said, I do think that the Debian attitude -- which could be characterized as unfriendly toward some new users -- fills an important niche. Not every distribution needs to cater to new users, though it is obviously important that some do. The attitude that "Ubuntu is for n00bs" should earn nothing but disdain. At the same time, the attitude that Debian is for those willing to research the basics before asking for help is, I think, entirely legitimate. No distro can be all things to all people.

[notwen]

Not every distribution needs to cater to new users, though it is obviously important that some do.

If only everyone could comprehend this. =]

[thrice upon a time]

I don't even use a monitor. I just keep track of what "should" be on the screen in my head at all times.

Rick should put away his kiddie monitor with it's pretty colors. He's a grown up now. It's time to get rid of the coloring book :guitar:

[pelle.k]

Rick should put away his kiddie monitor with it's pretty colors. He's a grown up now. It's time to get rid of the coloring book :guitar:

:lolflag: :KS

[factotum218]

i found this little nugget on the debian forums:


http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?p=139633#139633

what the hell is wrong with people? some of them act like ubuntu users have the plague.

Oh believe me, that rickh character is legendary. I've gone back to the Debian Users Forums just to read his posts to get a laugh.

I never really understood how Debian was ever considered for experienced users only. The only complications I had ever found with Debian where the many different options for package management. Beyond that, I had always found it one of the more user friendly offerings available. Sure, the installation dialogue up through Potato seemed difficult for some, but it really is a very noob-friendly choice in my opinion.

[timzak]

It seems that nearly every time I post a question for help in the Debian forums, at least one of the regulars goes out of their way to belittle me for asking a stupid question or not knowing better on my own. And when I call them on it, they defend the regular. They completely fly against the old saying "The only stupid question is the one not asked."

[markbuntu]

I was using a cli 30 years ago. It was a black and white terminal hooked up to a mainframe. I really think it is time to take a step forward from this. Besides, I no longer have the time patience or inclination to learn a zillion new and different commands just to use my computer.

To me cli zealots are completely mssing the point. How many hours did it take them to learn all those commands?

Like the latin scholars at the university, they now have a vested interest in keeping out the vulgar guis less they become objects of ridicule themselves for wasting so much time studying dead and dying languages.

To me a few more clicks are far more efficient than taking the time to learn the intricacies of some obtuse command set that I will most likely forget before I ever need to use.

Anyway, I have my Linux Pocket Guide and a few other books close to hand. Nothing beats a good book when you boot up into a flashing command prompt.

[cardinals_fan]

I was using a cli 30 years ago. It was a black and white terminal hooked up to a mainframe. I really think it is time to take a step forward from this. Besides, I no longer have the time patience or inclination to learn a zillion new and different commands just to use my computer.

To me cli zealots are completely mssing the point. How many hours did it take them to learn all those commands?

Like the latin scholars at the university, they now have a vested interest in keeping out the vulgar guis less they become objects of ridicule themselves for wasting so much time studying dead and dying languages.

To me a few more clicks are far more efficient than taking the time to learn the intricacies of some obtuse command set that I will most likely forget before I ever need to use.

Anyway, I have my Linux Pocket Guide and a few other books close to hand. Nothing beats a good book when you boot up into a flashing command prompt.
I personally feel that the CLI is more effective, but you can't learn all those commands without instruction. I just wandered around until I figured them out, but people who act like someone is stupid for not knowing the CLI are just rude. It's more like the Latin scholars who belittle languages that are actually still alive, but then refuse to help someone who wants to learn Latin because they're too 'dumb' to know it already.

[basenvironment]

you all all have a opinion.....shouldnt rickh be allowed one also?

[chucky chuckaluck]

meh. if you're not using old file cards, you have no business pretending to be elitist. when we were little kids, my sister and i had a file card eating contest. i beat her 4 to 3.

[Warren Watts]

i just think that people should use whatever their comfortable with.
...
linux should be used in any manner that makes sense and works.
...
all that matters is that we enjoy our computing experience and help others along the way.

To me, those three lines pretty well sum it all up.

My home computer network consists of anywhere between four and six computers at any given time, with a variety of OS's, depending on the purpose of the computer. I have computers running Ubuntu, Arch, and even (gasp!) Win2K.

Each computer is set up for the the ease of use of it's intended user.

[p_quarles]

you all all have a opinion.....shouldnt rickh be allowed one also?
I think we're discussing the merits of different opinions, rather than whether or not people ought to be allowed to have them.

[basenvironment]

Strange....it seems rickh's opinon is up for discussion and bashing? Can I say how much of a jerk-wad you are and that you suck? Is that the discussion this thread provides?

[p_quarles]

Strange....it seems rickh's opinon is up for discussion and bashing? Can I say how much of a jerk-wad you are and that you suck? Is that the discussion this thread provides?
No, but you can disagree with my opinions.

[poebae]

To be fair, other users on the Debian forums gave helpful answers, and rich's attitude isn't necessarily representative of the whole userbase (though it may well be).

attitudes like yours arent needed. not everyone lives and breathes computers like you. (i do too, but that's beside the point) some people want it to just work. and there's nothing wrong with that. you talk about "childish tools", but you have a childish attitude. take off the tin foil hat , grow up already and get some fresh air for a change. the linux community doesnt need people like you. it needs people who are supportive no matter which distro is being used.

[basenvironment]

...only those willing to read and learn need apply.
no no no.... anyone asking for someone else to put in the effort needed to assist them with a issue must be willing to put in the effort needed to learn as well. Seems fair to me. People should want to learn otherwise they will always be dependant on others. A five year old asking me to tie their shoes is one thing....a fifteen year old that still asks is another. If the fifteen year old does not want to take the time to learn then why should I waste my time doing it for them?

I truly believe that if Debian had a open and helpful community such as this one they would be the OS of the future.

uh....what can I say....speechless....

[basenvironment]

No, but you can disagree with my opinions.
But others can say that about rickh (and others who hold the same opinion) and that is considered 'discussing the merits of different opinions'?

Uh, okay...

[basenvironment]

Heck even Vorian Grey admits Rickh is helpful...

http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?p=139636#139636
While rickh comes across as a bit harsh he is actually giving some good advice, at least I think so.

I guess here is another example of that classic elitist attitude:

http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?p=139745#139745
We are experienced users and we are hopefully qualified to make those decisions. A newcomer to Debian won't be qualified to make that decision and I think we should recommend they use Aptitude as the tool of choice but that there are other choices if they desire to use them as they gain experience.
Should we also recommend gnome or kde? xfce?
medit, gedit, nedit, kate?

Since I am more experienced than you can I make decisions for you?

Why would a user need to be 'qualified' to make a decision that only affects him?

How is he to become 'qualified' unless he starts making those decisions for himself?

I think everyone should offer their opinion and reasons and let the person decide for themselves.

Deciding things for users sounds like ubuntu-think to me... :shock:

Personally, I think wanting to decide things for new users, not giving new users the chance to make their own decisions, and so forth is the more elitist attitude. Seems to imply they are not l33t like experienced users, they cannot decide for themselves, they aren't smart enough to choose for themselves. Now that is elitist...

ps - Personally I think it is bad-form to discuss members of one forum on another forum. It is like talking trash behind someones back.

[p_quarles]

But others can say that about rickh (and others who hold the same opinion) and that is considered 'discussing the merits of different opinions'?

Uh, okay...
I don't really see that as an accurate summary of this thread.

It's more like this:
1) Guy at Debian forums goes around telling people they don't need GUI tools, even when that has nothing to do with the topic at hand or the question asked.
2) Someone here says "see! that's what's wrong with Debian! They're all stuck up!"
3) Other people say, "umm, no, that guy doesn't represent us all, thank you very much."

Along the way, there has been light discussion of the relative merits of learning CLI tools vs developing allegedly easier to use (for some people) GUI tools, and people have had different experiences and opinions thereon.

And now someone has a problem, and I'm not quite sure why . . .

[p_quarles]

ps - Personally I think it is bad-form to discuss members of one forum on another forum. It is like talking trash behind someones back.
Okay, that much I'll agree with. Thread closed.