http://www.betterdesktop.org

[duffman25]

Novell & openSuse have launched http://www.betterdesktop.org
It's intended to be a place for usability in the desktop. They have videos & other thigs, a great resource for the linux community developers.

[Kerberos]

I just finished starting my rant site (http://ihatelinux.co.uk/rant_ubuntu.php) too! Usability ahoy! :)

[YourSurrogateGod]

Is it just me or the thing looks alot like Gnome.

[poptones]

I just finished starting my rant site (http://ihatelinux.co.uk/rant_ubuntu.php) too! Usability ahoy! :)


How ironic - your "rant site" causes firefox to crash.

Here's one ot add: ff1.07 on hoary seems to be acting just like ff did on warty a year ago.

[Lovechild]

Is it just me or the thing looks alot like Gnome.

Well it's a project that tests using Novell Linux Desktop, based on GNOME and created by what was formerly Ximian - Novell also hired pretty much every single GNOME artist out there, Tigert, jimmac, Garret.. I mean they did their homework.

[tageiru]

That site fails the primary usability test for internet websites. Never let the contents depend upon proprietary technologies which only exists for a limited number of platforms.

[DJ_Max]

That site fails the primary usability test for internet websites. Never let the contents depend upon proprietary technologies which only exists for a limited number of platforms.
Wait, what test did it fail?

[Stormy Eyes]

That site fails the primary usability test for internet websites. Never let the contents depend upon proprietary technologies which only exists for a limited number of platforms.

What proprietary tech are you talking about? View Source shows that they're using HTML 4.01, CSS, JavaScript, and PHP.

[tageiru]

What proprietary tech are you talking about? View Source shows that they're using HTML 4.01, CSS, JavaScript, and PHP.
It uses flash to display the headlines. Epiphany barfed since I dont have flash installed leaving me with no headlines at all :(.

The flash file is pristina.swf.

[-Rick-]

I just finished starting my rant site (http://ihatelinux.co.uk/rant_ubuntu.php) too! Usability ahoy! :)
Although I agree with some points you put there on that site, I think you shouldn't generalize linux to ubuntu and ubuntu only...There are dozens of other live cd's and some of them(like knoppix) do what you want and more.

[poofyhairguy]

I just finished starting my rant site (http://ihatelinux.co.uk/rant_ubuntu.php) too! Usability ahoy! :)


Just so you know, many of the thing you rant about are problems with only Ubuntu. Many other live CD's load the harddisk to the desktop. Also "Linux for Human Beings" just means that the best work of Ubuntu will always be provided for free, not that Ubuntu claims its usuability level is suitable for all humans...

[Kerberos]

Just so you know, many of the thing you rant about are problems with only Ubuntu. Many other live CD's load the harddisk to the desktop. Also "Linux for Human Beings" just means that the best work of Ubuntu will always be provided for free, not that Ubuntu claims its usuability level is suitable for all humans...
They must have actually gone to a bit of effort to make the file browser that bad then. :)

Seriously though what distro _should_ I be looking at?

[Knome_fan]

They must have actually gone to a bit of effort to make the file browser that bad then. :)

Seriously though what distro _should_ I be looking at?
Suse.

Or try breezy, nearly all the "issues" you mention are addressed there. (bootsplash, hds are automounted, filebrowser in browser mode).

And please stop hijacking threads with your silly rant site that only serves as a flamebait.

[Kerberos]

And please stop hijacking threads with your silly rant site that only serves as a flamebait.
I think it was quite a relevant place to put it.

If you read the page in the original topic you'll see a few reports (which I've linked to a few of below).

Email Report (http://www.betterdesktop.org/welcome/reports/report-email-book.html) Date & Time (http://www.betterdesktop.org/welcome/reports/report-date-time.html)

This is the sort of thing that needs done. But to me the only way you can explain all the incredibly annoying and unnecessarily convoluted way of doing things as a by product of poor design and insufficient testing. Point this out and you get flamed to the ground. Its obvious usability is not important by a: how bad it is at the moment and b: how little concern people give massive usability problems.

Now I expect the admin to get his final word in on why I'm wrong and then lock the topic as usual, as your not allowed to discuss usability here :)

[Knome_fan]

Could some mod please move stuff related to Kerberos post to a different thread?

I think it's unfortunate that the discussion of something as exciting as betterdesktop.org should by hijacked by something else.

Thanks.

[Luke Redpath]

It uses flash to display the headlines. Epiphany barfed since I dont have flash installed leaving me with no headlines at all :(.

The flash file is pristina.swf.

Then something has gone wrong elsewhere, its not Flash's fault. This is a technique known as sIFR, and if you don't have Flash, it should revert to the normal CSS-styled HTML headings.

http://www.mikeindustries.com/sifr/

[Joeb]

I just finished starting my rant site (http://ihatelinux.co.uk/rant_ubuntu.php) too! Usability ahoy! :)

If I understand your site correctly, you are upset that Windows crashed and because you Microsoft doesn't really offer any kind of recovery CD you tried to use Ubuntu to recover your data. Is that correct?

Shouldn't your rant site be about Microsoft's failure to allow any kind of recovery? Shouldn't it be about the problem of taking a perfectly working hard drive with Windows XP on it and moving it another comptuer and having it totally choke?

Obviously you are linux literate as demonstrated by your use of the mount commands, etc. Why would you chose to use Ubuntu for your recovery CD when, there are better options out the problem you had, is a mystery, though.

In short, though, you've created a web site to complain about Ubuntu because a) your windows computer failed, b) it displays boot-up information instead of a pretty picture when it boots, c) it couldn't automatically detect your network because the cable wasn't plugged in and d) it didn't automatically mount your ntfs partition. Is that the gist of it?

Don't get me wrong, Ubuntu has much room for improvement, but your "rant" site sounds more like a list of pet peeves instead of constructive criticism. And for the record, where you defend XP on your site, I'm pretty sure that XP today is the same as XP from several years ago (with security patches, of course). And most of the Windows complaints aren't necessarily about the software but the practices of Microsoft, itself.

BTW, you never mentioned on your site whether you recovered your data or not. I would think that would be an important piece of information. If yes, then maybe you shouldn't be complaining.

[duffman25]

Could some mod please move stuff related to Kerberos post to a different thread?

I think it's unfortunate that the discussion of something as exciting as betterdesktop.org should by hijacked by something else.

Thanks.

Yes please

[Kerberos]

If I understand your site correctly, you are upset that Windows crashed and because you Microsoft doesn't really offer any kind of recovery CD you tried to use Ubuntu to recover your data. Is that correct?
Windows was fine. The laptop itself died (hardware failure). Windows sucks, but for entirely different reasons than Linux. Linux fails on usability, Windows fails on stability (and is turning into a corporate branding hellhole).
BTW, you never mentioned on your site whether you recovered your data or not. I would think that would be an important piece of information. If yes, then maybe you shouldn't be complaining.
I did recover it fine. I know I act like a troll sometimes but its really frustrating that the Linux community doesn't see usability as an important aspect of the whole package, despite trying to switch 'normal' people at every available step. The end user experiance should be the most important part of Linux rather than just an afterthought.

[GeneralZod]

I know I act like a troll sometimes but its really frustrating that the Linux community doesn't see usability as an important aspect of the whole package, despite trying to switch 'normal' people at every available step. The end user experiance should be the most important part of Linux rather than just an afterthought.

They do, it's just that adding "usability" is hard. It's not going to be something that can be accomplished in a 3-day coding marathon as soon as a developer decides to add it. Also, as always, developers don't read these forums so this is the least fruitful place to rant :)

Have patience; the developers are working on usability and other issues as quickly as they can, but it won't happen overnight.

[tageiru]

Then something has gone wrong elsewhere, its not Flash's fault. This is a technique known as sIFR, and if you don't have Flash, it should revert to the normal CSS-styled HTML headings.

http://www.mikeindustries.com/sifr/
Yes, after some research I came to the same conclusion. Epiphany, however, gave me no headlines.

In any case, it seems quite useless to add all that complexity just to show the user a more unreadable font then the Ubuntu standard.

[Lovechild]

Some of the most skilled people in the area is working on improving usability on GNOME (and thus Ubuntu.. in the areas where they don't **** UP and deviate from upstream). This is evident in that we have SUN who employees countless usability people, Novell, RedHat, projects like Betterdesktop which goes out and does real world studies.

If anyone feels a certain issue is being over looked, instead of creating a blog (the internet equaliant of tabloid newspapers), join the gnome usability mailing list and partake in the debate.

Usability is not about what one high and mighty guy says, it's about how best to handle a complex issue and there is no easy solution as all changes affect the interface. GNOME has improved tremendously over the years, and it will continue to do so for years to come - _your_ input is encouraged and appricated, but only considered relavant if centralised.

Now excuse me, I have some 200 Ogg Theora videos to download.

[Kerberos]

Have patience; the developers are working on usability and other issues as quickly as they can, but it won't happen overnight.
Spray on Usability (http://daringfireball.net/2004/04/spray_on_usability) is a really good article. To be honest I dont see usability in Linux moving fast enough that it will actually be up to the standard it needs to be to gain popular support for a very long time. Which explains my cynicism.

If you really think I'm wrong your free to argue with me on points. I'd like to see someone justify why not having a back button is a good thing personally. Theres a forum on my site for it too if anyone can be bothered so as not to make a 'mess' here.

[Stormy Eyes]

Windows was fine. The laptop itself died (hardware failure). Windows sucks, but for entirely different reasons than Linux. Linux fails on usability, Windows fails on stability (and is turning into a corporate branding hellhole).

As a computer user, I can deal with 'poor usability'. I cannot and will not tolerate poor stability.

[poptones]

Not having a "back" button? I'm guessing you must mean in Nautilus?

A "back" button in nautilus is useless because you never need it. You click to enter a folder, now to leave you either click another folder or go back to where you came - which can just as easily be done via "up" as "back." It's a silly annoyance and I'll admit to being a very experienced user who still sometimes finds himself hesitating a second to decide whether I want to go "back" (and not create another history entry) or go "up" and create another history entry.

See how stupid it is? If you know nothing you're going to b confused, and if you know a lot you're still going to have to devote "thought" to the simple act of going up one directory. In windows it was easy to fix this problem because *I* could decide what buttons appear - and the lack of this feature is one of the things I still despise most about nautilus and the gnome desktop in general.

I suspect it doesn't matter mush, as I have heard the next step beyond the reversion to "browser mode" will be to rip that bloated POS out of the ubuntu desktop altogether and replace it with something that doesn't take ten minutes to open a large directory.

I like gnome, but more and more I am realising what I like most about gnome is simply how it *looks* compared to KDe. The only part of gnome I hate worse than nautilus is that stupid file save dialog they came up with that always puts your stuff in the *first folder in the folder displayed at the top of the window instead of actually putting it in the folder disp0layed at the top of the window. if the usability team thinks that is "usable" Novell and Sun need to take away their crack pipes.

[mlomker]

To be honest I dont see usability in Linux moving fast enough that it will actually be up to the standard it needs to be to gain popular support for a very long time.

I personally agree with that and have stated before that linux is now, with Ubuntu, officially stable enough for geeks. I had someone correct me in another thread by stating that linux is actually useable by anyone but installation/maintenance is not. I think the same could be said about Windows in many respects--my relatives wouldn't keep calling me if that weren't the case.

I'd like to see someone justify why not having a back button is a good thing personally.

I'm not sure what application you are referring to. Firefox has one of those. ;)

On the general subject of linux usability: that's what Ubuntu has been working on since the distribution was founded and they're making splendid progress. Prior to Ubuntu/MEPIS/Xandros/Linspire the usability of Suse and Debian was laughable.

The important point of all of this is simple: Linux is free. Microsoft has billions of dollars to pay for usability testing. Anyone that wants to hire a team of programmers and improve linux is free to do so--that's what open source is all about. Complaining without helping is generally pointless. If you want to pitch in and help (http://www.ubuntu.com/community/participate) then there are mechanisms for that and every 'staff' moderator on this board is an unpaid volunteer.

The only reason that threads get locked is if the discussion devolves to personal attacks. Conversations like this are appropriate in the community chat forum up to a point.

[Kerberos]

I'm not sure what application you are referring to. Firefox has one of those. ;)
http://ihatelinux.co.uk/images/explorer.png
No back button. You have to use the drop down navigation in A to go back.

[mlomker]

You have to use the drop down navigation in A to go back.

Ah. You might have noticed that I run KDE. :D

Konquorer has a back button, indeed, its other mode is being a web browser.

[Stormy Eyes]

http://ihatelinux.co.uk/images/explorer.png
No back button. You have to use the drop down navigation in A to go back.

No, I don't. I can use SHIFT+UP to go back to the previous directory. If you want Windows Explorer, you know where to find it.

[mlomker]

If you want Windows Explorer, you know where to find it.

You could grab gnome-commander (http://www.nongnu.org/gcmd/) or any number of open-source file managers from Synaptic.

[Kerberos]

No, I don't. I can use SHIFT+UP to go back to the previous directory. If you want Windows Explorer, you know where to find it.
Which is what this discussion is about, usability. SHIFT+UP does not come in to it as its not discoverable at all and thus is a secondary navigation method. How are you meant to know that without wading through a manual first? You need an obvious, discoverable and easy way of doing common things. Ubuntu features no such way of going back a folder.

I bet if you asked a standard 'user' to browse to a pre-set list of locations on a hard drive in Ubuntu one of the main problems would be people getting confused by the lack of back button, requiring several more clicks every time to achieve a very simple goal (going back or up a level) if they managed to figure it out at all.

Or do you not like it simply because Microsoft have similar features and want to be 'different'?

[mlomker]

Ubuntu one of the main problems would be people getting confused by the lack of back button

Don't confuse Ubuntu with gnome. Gnome is just one of the many desktop managers that can run on linux systems and Ubuntu did not write it. They are actively working on making it easier to use and are giving their enhancements back to the gnome developers.

[Stormy Eyes]

You need an obvious, discoverable and easy way of doing common things. Ubuntu features no such way of going back a folder.

First off, don't ever tell me what I need. Such phrasing is rude.

Second: the fact that Nautilus does not have a 'back' button is not Ubuntu's problem, but GNOME's, and ought to be irrelevant once Breezy comes out. The Nautilus in GNOME 2.12 doesn't bother with a back button, but instead gives you a button for each directory upstream from the current directory.

I bet if you asked a standard 'user' to browse to a pre-set list of locations on a hard drive in Ubuntu one of the main problems would be people getting confused by the lack of back button, requiring several more clicks every time to achieve a very simple goal (going back or up a level) if they managed to figure it out at all.

Would you mind telling me what a "standard user" looks like, so I can avoid them outside of the office? From what I've seen at work, a "standard user" handles a mouse two-handed and thinks that Bill Gates worked with Al Gore to create the Internet.

I do not think that usability should be dictated by the lowest common denominator. Ever hear the saying, "Create a system that even a fool can use, and only a fool would want to use it"?

Or do you not like it simply because Microsoft have similar features and want to be 'different'?

I don't give a rip about Nautilus one way or the other; my file manager is a terminal.

[Kerberos]

First off, don't ever tell me what I need. Such phrasing is rude.
When I said 'you' I was placing you in a metaphorical group with the Ubuntu developers and other Linux advocates, rather than a personally directed comment. The 'need' part was to imply a prerequisite that is required for mass public adoption of Ubuntu (rather than the niche it currently occupied). There was nothing 'rude' about it I was just saying that its key functionality that needs to be present. There is no primary navigation method for going back a directory - that is the problem.

Don't confuse Ubuntu with gnome. Gnome is just one of the many desktop managers that can run on linux systems and Ubuntu did not write it. They are actively working on making it easier to use and are giving their enhancements back to the gnome developers.
It doesn't matter who wrote it. The fact there is no back button is utterly ridiculous and the fact that I am in an argument with people who actively think its a good thing that it isn't there is even more ridiculous.

[poptones]

No back button. You have to use the drop down navigation in A to go back.

That's because there is no "back." There is "parent" but "parent" is an entirely different window. If you want "back" and such you set nautilus to browser, not to spatial.

Nautilus spatial is a perfect example of a really good idea with an insanely poor exeution. Between gnome's vfs layer and nautilus there is so much crap that windows take forever to update when performing simple file operations like copy and paste (that is, if they get updated at all) and even opening a folder with several hundred objects takes a ridiculous amount of time. When I tried breezy this was so bad the desktop was completely unusable - I wasted the better part of two days trying out RC4 or whatever it was called, and after filing a bug report and then having it closed soon after as I was told it is *normal and expected* behavior for the desktop to thrash for ten minutes when opening a folder MSIE could render in 30 seconds, I'm very reluctant to give it a go again.

But really, it all needs to go. This crap about "spatial" vs "browsers" and file save dialogs and such is just splitting hairs over a rapidly balding client. For starters, ther shouldn't even BE a file save dialog - it should just "save" to a database under the proper keywords and phrases which can be set in a file properties dialog. Every click of "save" puts another copy of the file in the database, allowing one to build a complete document history.

There shouldn't be a "file open" dialog in apps, either - there should just be a "document finder" that opens whatever version of the document you choose in whatever application (or "mode") you want it to open.

I have a database with about 300,000 images and songs and it's insane the amount of time it takes just to plan how to structure all that data. But I can go to google and locate a cd jacket for just about any release in all of thirty seconds. Applications like spotlight (which I have not tried) and beagle (whcih I have) are just more band-aids on the problem - now we have to *search* for documents *and* screw with file paths and such. It's not simpler, it's actually *added* complexity to a problem that needn't exist at all.

We don't have to know where documents are located on the web, why should I (or grandma) have to screw around with file paths and such? I don't want to *browse* for documents, I want to *play* mp3s and *edit* text documents and images. Assembling slideshows of images is about the closest most folks need to get to "browsing" images, and even that is better done with something more interactive (and yes, I've tried f-stop and several others and most of those suck, too).

Saying linux is too far behind in usability isn't at all fair, though - because windows and macs suck just as badly, just in their own ways. All machines need tools to allow you to repair and maintain them, but you should not have to use those tools simply to *operate* them any more than you should have to start your car with a crescent wrench.

[Stormy Eyes]

It doesn't matter who wrote it.

I guess aim never matters when you're using a flamethrower.

The fact there is no back button is utterly ridiculous and the fact that I am in an argument with people who actively think its a good thing that it isn't there is even more ridiculous.

$DEITY forbid that people disagree with you, eh Kerberos? Frankly, I think that file managers should not have either a "back" or a "forward" button. An "up" button that does the equivalent of "cd .." is all that's necessary in a graphical file manager; a file manager is not a web browser, and therefore should not act like one or be designed like one.

[Kerberos]

I guess aim never matters when you're using a flamethrower.
*splash*

$DEITY forbid that people disagree with you, eh Kerberos? Frankly, I think that file managers should not have either a "back" or a "forward" button. An "up" button that does the equivalent of "cd .." is all that's necessary in a graphical file manager; a file manager is not a web browser, and therefore should not act like one or be designed like one.
OK. It doesn't have an 'up' button then.

[Wolki]

OK. It doesn't have an 'up' button then.

It has a two-click up button. While that is a little unfortunate, it allows you to go up /any/ number of directories with just two clicks.

You also have to consider that Nautilus' default behavior in ubuntu is different from Gnome's. Original Nautilus will keep the old folder open, so that you usually don't need an up or back button, you just close the window.

(Now some people may argue that the default behavior in Gnome is stupid. I don't agree, however that is a long discussion with countless arguments on each side, and I don't want to go into that right now. You're viewing "usability" far to limited, though, in my humble opinion. Some of your point may be valid still)

[Kerberos]

Between gnome's vfs layer and nautilus there is so much crap that windows take forever to update when performing simple file operations like copy and paste (that is, if they get updated at all) and even opening a folder with several hundred objects takes a ridiculous amount of time.
I actually had to use the command prompt to copy a lot of the stuff across as it was impossible to get into subdirectories of folders with large contents due to loading times (it took longer than the time it takes to make a coffee anyway). :(

[Knome_fan]

Wow! Just wanted to thank all those involved (me included) for really taking this thread off topic and discussing the missing back button in nautilus spatial with a stupid troll.

Not to mention that there are 659 other filemanger one could use, not to mention that to enable browser mode one has to only click once on a check box, not to mention that breezy is going to use browser mode anyway.

Well done, very endearing...

[aysiu]

I'd just like to know what Kerberos thinks is productive about this, having been told numerous times that developers do not even read these forums.

[Knome_fan]

I'd just like to know what Kerberos thinks is productive about this, having been told numerous times that developers do not even read these forums.

Ehm, he's a troll, he generates answers, he's productive.

[mlomker]

thread off topic and discussing the missing back button in nautilus spatial with a stupid troll.

I'm not clear why threads have to stay on topic in the community chat forum. It's also easy to start another one.

[aysiu]

Ehm, he's a troll, he generates answers, he's productive. Sorry. I forgot. If Kerberos really wanted to not troll and actually wanted to make some valid points, here would have been a much better post: "I can't say I'm a big fan of Ubuntu choosing to make spatial mode the default for Nautilus. I hope they fix this in Breezy. Are all Linux distributions like this?" To which, the responses would have been "Yes, they're fixing it for Breezy. No, not all Gnome distros choose spatial as the default, and many distros use KDE, in fact. And some people actually prefer spatial mode."

Instead, we get I just finished starting my rant site too! Usability ahoy!

[Stormy Eyes]

Well done, very endearing...

Always happy to oblige.

[Knome_fan]

Sorry. I forgot. If Kerberos really wanted to not troll and actually wanted to make some valid points, here would have been a much better post: "I can't say I'm a big fan of Ubuntu choosing to make spatial mode the default for Nautilus. I hope they fix this in Breezy. Are all Linux distributions like this?" To which, the responses would have been "Yes, they're fixing it for Breezy. No, not all Gnome distros choose spatial as the default, and many distros use KDE, in fact. And some people actually prefer spatial mode."


Exactly.

mlomaker, my problem is not that a thread goes off topic, my problem is that I don't like trolls and the best way to keep them at bay is to simply not feed them.

[Kerberos]

Wow! Just wanted to thank all those involved (me included) for really taking this thread off topic and discussing the missing back button in nautilus spatial with a stupid troll.
Because calling me a troll without contributing anything else multiple times in this thread makes you a crusader for the light? Also as you said they are including the aforementioned missing buttons in the next version making your arguments for their continued absence a bit pointless.

I do not want to take attention away from the site

http://www.betterdesktop.org/

Which is exactly what Linux needs - to sit a succession of 'normal' users down in front of a computer, tell them to do something, and watch what they do. If they mostly get stuck in the same place or make the same mistake then the system/program needs to be refined/changed so that they do not encounter that problem - as opposed to the common belief that the user just hasn't learned how to do it and just needs educated. Usability directly reduces the necessity for documentation and thus saves time (which to most people is worth more than money).

[Knome_fan]

Because calling me a troll without contributing anything else multiple times in this thread makes you a crusader for the light?

Oh, how about addressing all you stupid little points on your childish little website? That's not contribution, just because you chose to ignore it.

Amazing logic, I'm impressed.

[Wolki]

I actually had to use the command prompt to copy a lot of the stuff across as it was impossible to get into subdirectories of folders with large contents due to loading times (it took longer than the time it takes to make a coffee anyway). :(

Yes, nautilus speed sucks. And of course, this should be fixed. (btw, there's an interesting series about gnome optimization on planet Gnome, Federico Mena-Quintero is doing a lot of work on this)

Now, that's only part of the problem. The other part is that large directories *in itself* are inefficient for the user. Similar to how it takes Nautilus longer to display stuff, it takes the user loger to find the file he needs. And improved search, often claimed to fix this, does not really help since searching in itself is not that efficient.

Gnome is a DE that tends to force some things on it's users. They - of course - hate that, but that does not mean it is per se bad. Most people are horrible interface designers. This of course is expected, most people are horrible nuclear scientists, formula 1 pilots, or neurosurgeons; thats why we need all of these. If you give people too many choices they will make their own work a lot harder. (This does not forbid preferences to adjust behavior to workflow, but requires them to be limited and productive).
Sometimes this is incredibly annoying, sometimes (often?) gnome is wrong, and everything, but I still think its a good idea. There are projects built that follow the status quo more closely or allow for in-detail customization; everyone who does not like Gnome, or whose work is beyond the scope where the gnome way is efficient, is free to use them.
(/end rant, sorry ^^;;;)

[Stormy Eyes]

Which is exactly what Linux needs - to sit a succession of 'normal' users down in front of a computer, tell them to do something, and watch what they do.

Sure, and I can tell you exactly what will happen when you put J. Random User in front of a PC: the first thing he'll ask is, "Is this Windows?" I have an idea: instead of using tests tainted by the prevalence of Windows, why not use plain old logic? Design the program's GUI so that it fits its intended function; dependence on focus groups leads to a lowest common denominator approach. You talk about reducing the need for documentation; I hear "let's dumb it down".

If I want Fisher-Price, I know where to get it.

[macgyver2]

I'd just like to know what Kerberos thinks is productive about this, having been told numerous times that developers do not even read these forums.
What if someone came along, read the thread, said "hey, you know that's a good point", coded up a solution, and submitted it to the open-source project in question? I was always under the impression that when it comes to FOSS anyone is a potential developer.

Also, I've seen developers on ubuntuforums, so I think that a blanket "developers do not even read these forums" is not accurate.

[Kerberos]

Sure, and I can tell you exactly what will happen when you put J. Random User in front of a PC: the first thing he'll ask is, "Is this Windows?" I have an idea: instead of using tests tainted by the prevalence of Windows, why not use plain old logic? Design the program's GUI so that it fits its intended function; dependence on focus groups leads to a lowest common denominator approach. You talk about reducing the need for documentation; I hear "let's dumb it down".

If I want Fisher-Price, I know where to get it.
All I can say is I, personally, think that you are wrong and that the direct observation of users plays a critical part in developing software. Users do not understand what they are doing, but they usually know what they want to do.

Seriously read this link (http://betterdesktop.org/welcome/reports/report-email-book.html) and tell me that their recommendations are not valid? If Linux is to bring affordable computing to the masses its them it should be made for - not the techno elite.

I do not mean to cause offence, all I am saying is I do not agree with you.

[poofyhairguy]

What if someone came along, read the thread, said "hey, you know that's a good point", coded up a solution, and submitted it to the open-source project in question? I was always under the impression that when it comes to FOSS anyone is a potential developer.

Anyone can be a developer. Not everyone can add code or features that will be shipped with the final version. When we say, "developers do not read the forum" we mean "people who decide what Ubuntu final releases will be like do not look at the posts here talking about usability."


Also, I've seen developers on ubuntuforums, so I think that a blanket "developers do not even read these forums" is not accurate.

Only a few ever read here, and they stick to the development forum to help people with huge bugs that come down the pipe. I have never heard of an Ubuntu developer reading the rants here in community chat, and I don't think I ever will.

This thread is so off track it will now be closed. Have a nice day.