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pmasiar
March 16th, 2008, 07:12 PM
You should not start programming in C. There are better languages for beginners, Python being most often suggested. See sticky FAQ (including poll, and including info about books for C).

slavik
March 16th, 2008, 07:16 PM
K&R does not assume assume previous programming knowledge, it just tries to give you enough knowledge so you can write useful programs.


You should not start programming in C. There are better languages for beginners, Python being most often suggested. See sticky FAQ (including poll, and including info about books for C).

I'd recommend Perl over Python.

LaRoza
March 16th, 2008, 07:19 PM
K&R does not assume assume previous programming knowsledge, it just tries to give you enough knowledge so you can write useful programs.

I thought I wrote that, but I must not have submitted my post...

K&R is a concise book for a concise language. It can be used to learn C with no experience, however, its strengths will make it a bit hard to "get" with no experience.

Fbot1
March 16th, 2008, 08:35 PM
This is really starting to bother me, it was asked what resource not what language. But hey, talking about crappy python beats relevance any day!

If you don't want to spend money wikibooks has an okay book.
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/C_Programming

pmasiar
March 16th, 2008, 08:42 PM
But hey, talking about crappy python beats relevance any day!

I understand why bot like you prefer C. We humans prefer languages like Python, which makes communication between humans highest priority :-)

BTW this discussion (about best language for a beginner) was rehashed about zillion times, so if you want to start flames about it, I would recommend appropriate FAQ thread.

pmasiar
March 16th, 2008, 08:51 PM
K&R does not assume assume previous programming knowledge, it just tries to give you enough knowledge so you can write useful programs.

Someone who has book around could double-check this claim, IMHO it is wrong: "Big Blue C" is IIRC a book for experienced programmers who need to "dive into C" and not a book for total beginners without a clue what programming is - and it says in intro.

And we repeated this discussion many times - but some people will never learn, and never back up. Including me :-)


I'd recommend Perl over Python.

Well, it's you, and you are in minority - as the poll shows. You have right to tell your opinion, and I have duty to remind OP that your opinion is of a minuscule minority. Have a nice day!

CptPicard
March 16th, 2008, 09:33 PM
The book is not an introductory programming manual; it assumes some familiarity with basic programming concepts like variables, assignment statements, loops and functions. Nonetheless, a novice programmer should be able to read along and pick up the language, although access to a more knowledgeable colleague will help.


If you're a very academic n00b I'd say you can pick up programming from start through K&R, but that doesn't necessarily mean there aren't better ways to go about it...

Fbot1
March 16th, 2008, 09:38 PM
BTW this discussion (about best language for a beginner) was rehashed about zillion times, so if you want to start flames about it, I would recommend appropriate FAQ thread.
I'm just so sick of this kind of dialog:


A: Hey, how should I learn C++?
B: C++ is not some thing silly little programmers should play with.


I just think it should be kept on topic. If you want to tell them then pm them or start a new thread.

CptPicard
March 16th, 2008, 09:40 PM
If the specific question is "how should I learn C++", then sure, it's a straight up front question that deserves a straight answer. However, many people ask "I want to learn programming and thought to start with C++"... which does deserve a suggestion that there are better ways to get into programming...

Fbot1
March 16th, 2008, 09:43 PM
If the specific question is "how should I learn C++", then sure, it's a straight up front question that deserves a straight answer. However, many people ask "I want to learn programming and thought to start with C++"... which does deserve a suggestion that there are better ways to get into programming...

I agree but that's not the case here.

LaRoza
March 16th, 2008, 10:30 PM
I agree but that's not the case here.

You are the one causing the problem...

All that was posted was advice, and someone mentioned that if one is just starting out C may be what the OP is looking for.

LaRoza
March 16th, 2008, 10:32 PM
I'm just so sick of this kind of dialog:


A: Hey, how should I learn C++?
B: C++ is not some thing silly little programmers should play with.


I just think it should be kept on topic. If you want to tell them then pm them or start a new thread.

You started it!

A: I want to get started with C?
B: See the sticky
C: If you are just getting started, it is the general opinion of the forum that higher level languages will be easier.

Then you joined in...

pmasiar
March 16th, 2008, 10:33 PM
I agree but that's not the case here.

Let me see:


Is there a very simple tutorial out there for people looking to start programing in C?

I am looking for one that will walk me through everything, from getting my first Hello World application going to helping me set up my Ubuntu system with the proper libraries and compiler...

I see OP as a total beginner, who was misled to trying C as a first language to learn. Do you see expert, who can dive into C, to quickly pick difference between C and couple other languages s/he knows well, as K&R themselves expected from the book's audience?

CptPicard
March 16th, 2008, 11:07 PM
It depends on how far along the sentence you bind the verb "start". ;) I can see why OP can be read as "I want to (start programming in C)" instead of "I want to (start programming) in C"...

slavik
March 17th, 2008, 01:36 AM
You started it!

A: I want to get started with C?
B: See the sticky
C: If you are just getting started, it is the general opinion of the forum that higher level languages will be easier.

Then you joined in...
LaRoza, I agree with Fbot1. OP asked about resources relating to programming in C. Why should we start mentioning other languages here?

Pmasiar, not everyone who asks a question here is a beginner. Please don't assume that they are just beginning programming. Instead, ask them and then give your advice.

LaRoza
March 17th, 2008, 01:43 AM
LaRoza, I agree with Fbot1. OP asked about resources relating to programming in C. Why should we start mentioning other languages here?

Pmasiar, not everyone who asks a question here is a beginner. Please don't assume that they are just beginning programming. Instead, ask them and then give your advice.

This is being blown up. pmasiar stated:


You should not start programming in C. There are better languages for beginners, Python being most often suggested. See sticky FAQ (including poll, and including info about books for C).


The gist of it is that he thinks people starting to program shouldn't start with C (relevant to the OP), the result of the poll (factual), and the sticky (the real point of his post and addresses C)

This was the only mention of Python, and it doesn't state anything off topic and may be off use.

The rest of the posts focused on C, and K&R mostly. Then this came:



This is really starting to bother me, it was asked what resource not what language. But hey, talking about crappy python beats relevance any day!


Now this is really off. It violates the CoC, it is flamebait. If someone said "Don't learn C, learn Python (or anything else for that matter)", it would at least be somewhat relevant, but is isn't.

pmasiar did respond to the OP is an appropriate manner. He didn't even recommend Python, just pointed out that is is more often recommended over C for beginners, and there is a big possibilty the OP has no experience.

Perhaps of saying Python, we should have a generic term for a HLL with duck typing and is cross platform and widely used. But that is just silly.

bruce89
March 17th, 2008, 01:52 AM
If someone said "Don't learn C, learn Python (or anything else for that matter)", it would at least be somewhat relevant, but is isn't.

Doesn't sound relevant to me.

LaRoza
March 17th, 2008, 02:03 AM
Doesn't sound relevant to me.

I mean the response would be addressing a real issue, but the response created the issue.

mssever
March 17th, 2008, 02:18 AM
Someone call the fire department!

CptPicard
March 17th, 2008, 02:19 AM
All this stuff really isn't relevant.

Go out people and have a life for the rest of the day :)

LaRoza
March 17th, 2008, 02:23 AM
All this stuff really isn't relevant.

Go out people and have a life for the rest of the day :)

Or night, and yes, a small comment then someone flames that comment and now look what happened?

Remember the good old days with the blue and pink dots? Hopefully, the OP will study C and have a question on pointers...

mssever
March 17th, 2008, 02:36 AM
Remember the good old days with the blue and pink dots?
Blue and pink dots? Apparently I don't.

CptPicard
March 17th, 2008, 02:46 AM
Blue and pink dots? Apparently I don't.

We can only hope to return to that high level of conversation (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=704619).

LaRoza
March 17th, 2008, 02:58 AM
We can only hope to return to that high level of conversation (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=704619).

I just reread it, it is stil funny.

pmasiar
March 17th, 2008, 03:19 AM
Maybe we shold wait for OP, to see what is relevant to her? If "start" is bound to "programming", or all the way to "C", as CptPicard rightly noted.

And possibly we can wait without flamebaits (Fbot1, I am looking at you!). :-)

Fbot1
March 17th, 2008, 03:37 AM
pmasiar did respond to the OP is an appropriate manner.

How is suggesting that the OP not use C relevant to finding a C tutorial?


He didn't even recommend Python, just pointed out that is is more often recommended over C for beginners, and there is a big possibility the OP has no experience.

Did I even suggest that he recommended Python? I said "talking about" and I said it like that for a very obvious reason.

And possibly we can wait without flamebaits (Fbot1, I am looking at you!). :-)
I'm not even flame baiting.

LaRoza
March 17th, 2008, 03:40 AM
How is suggesting that the OP not use C relevant to finding a C tutorial?


Ok, the OP posted as if there was no prior programming experience (I certainly got that message as well).

pmasiar posted that IF there is no experience, C isn't usually the best language with which to start. Then he posted the resources for C, the sticky.

Maybe we should wait until the OP responds. You are making this much larger than it is...

LaRoza
March 17th, 2008, 03:42 AM
I'm not even flame baiting.

Yes you are:



This is really starting to bother me, it was asked what resource not what language. But hey, talking about crappy python beats relevance any day!

Fbot1
March 17th, 2008, 03:53 AM
Yes you are:

That's not flaming. It would be flaming if I said something like this: "Keep it on topic retard" but I didn't say anything like that.

LaRoza
March 17th, 2008, 03:54 AM
That's not flaming. It would be flaming if I said something like this: "Keep it on topic retard" but I didn't say anything like that.

Ok....

I think I will go watch Fawlty Towers...

pmasiar
March 17th, 2008, 04:56 AM
OK, would you like such non-flamabaiting suggestion:

"why anyone will start learning programming in crappy language like C when everyone knows high-level dynamically typed langugages are simpler for beginners?"

BTW I do not think that C is "crappy". I just think that, for beginners there are better languages to start learning programming. Of course, for some people it is too nuanced position, for those I will keep C in "crappy" column. :-)

LaRoza
March 17th, 2008, 05:00 AM
That's not flaming. It would be flaming if I said something like this: "Keep it on topic retard" but I didn't say anything like that.

This thread can't get better. Too bad I took part in this thread...

CptPicard
March 17th, 2008, 05:36 AM
This thread can't get better. Too bad I took part in this thread...

Just relax and enjoy the show... :popcorn: :KS

(Ok, everyone else is posting crap so..)

Fbot1
March 17th, 2008, 06:52 AM
OK, would you like such non-flamabaiting suggestion:

"why anyone will start learning programming in crappy language like C when everyone knows high-level dynamically typed langugages are simpler for beginners?"

BTW I do not think that C is "crappy". I just think that, for beginners there are better languages to start learning programming. Of course, for some people it is too nuanced position, for those I will keep C in "crappy" column. :-)

umm, that's nice, I guess, but I think you've missed my point.

LaRoza
March 17th, 2008, 06:54 AM
umm, that's nice I guess but I think you've missed my point.

He's not the only one.

Fbot1
March 17th, 2008, 06:57 AM
He's not the only one.

Yes, I know I've gone off topic but that's to reinforce my point.

pmasiar
March 17th, 2008, 01:01 PM
umm, that's nice, I guess, but I think you've missed my point.

Are you sure you had one? How it looked like? :-)

bapoumba
March 17th, 2008, 05:02 PM
Off topic stuff from here: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=4532748

Fbot1
March 17th, 2008, 05:34 PM
Are you sure you had one? How it looked like? :-)

I'm starting to think that all you're trying to do is save face.

bruce89
March 17th, 2008, 07:01 PM
BTW I do not think that C is "crappy". I just think that, for beginners there are better languages to start learning programming. Of course, for some people it is too nuanced position, for those I will keep C in "crappy" column. :-)

I don't see how one person's personal preference is now the best for beginners. For the record, Python hurts my head.

The real issue is the fact that if people ask for advice, people tend to say "You shouldn't use that anyway, use $CURRENT_FAD".

CptPicard
March 18th, 2008, 02:34 AM
I don't see how one person's personal preference is now the best for beginners. For the record, Python hurts my head.

Objectively you can say that certain language features make it better or worse for beginners. I would say Python, objectively, fits the bill of beginner-friendly language better than C..



The real issue is the fact that if people ask for advice, people tend to say "You shouldn't use that anyway, use $CURRENT_FAD".

You're missing pmasiar's point too :)

Fbot1
March 18th, 2008, 04:02 AM
Even of that was valid it wouldn't matter. There are better ways to express these things.

LaRoza
March 18th, 2008, 05:20 AM
Even of that was valid it wouldn't matter. There are better ways to express these things.

Yes there are, they lack the word "crappy" though. (Or are you talking about someone else other than yourself?)

I didn't know this thread was still active. Yay.

Since it is in the Recurring Discussions, it can't be hijacked (giving threads a purpose isn't against the CoC, and Recurring Discussions are pointless)

saulgoode
March 18th, 2008, 10:52 AM
I would say Python, objectively, fits the bill of beginner-friendly language better than C..
That is a subjective opinion.

Fbot1
March 18th, 2008, 08:00 PM
Yes there are, they lack the word "crappy" though.
What's so bad about calling it crappy? I think it's generally inadequate, particularly inappropriate, and frequently misrepresented which makes it really annoying. It really makes me wonder why you care so much about.


giving threads a purpose isn't against the CoC
It changes the topic which undermines the forum structuring.

bruce89
March 19th, 2008, 11:28 AM
That is a subjective opinion.

Different people might have different likes. I like the methodology of C, but perhaps others like a less rigid way of doing things.