In order to succeed, there must be criticism.

[SZF2001]

Which is not exactly a bad thing. If taken with a better perspective, if taken with an open mind, criticism could change huge key elements of the OS (or any OS with enough voice).

I'd love to use Ubuntu on a daily basis. Hell, I'd love to use any Linux distro I wanted to (I REALLY wanted to play around with openSuSE), but there is just one thing standing in my way - my Wifi card.

I know, I know, there are some companies that made open drivers, I know there are cards that work out of the box, I know this and that and blargh blargh what what. But I just can't afford to drop twenty to fifty (or even high) on a card, simply because I'm paying off so much crap as it is (not credit card debt, thank God) and I'm on a budget. So for now I have to work with what I have.

It's not practical to have an ethernet bridge. Well... It is, but it doesn't fix any wifi card problems, only masks your own. And this isn't really practical when it comes to me being in an airport or a hotel - I can't go to the guy with a modem and ask him to set up my part of the bridge on his end all the time.

Here's the good part - ndiswrapper has come a VERY long way and I support the team 100%. The program is great, and if I even do get around to some spare cash, I might just donate some to them. But they seem to be the only people willing to help out in this cause (besides the developers making open drivers).

That's just one problem I find with Linux in general - wifi is limited. I'm pretty sure more members have some gripes, but let's remember, this isn't a huge COMPLAIN COMPLAIN AAAAAAH thread, we are criticing and trying to help make the system stronger. And if it fuels the fires, once in a while even MS listens to their customers when they NEED a security patch or something. Just need a louder voice, that's all...

[jeffus_il]

In order to succeed, there must be criticism which of course comes in two delicious flavours, positive and negative, the positive criticizers are writing code, and if the are not able to, debugging, translating, and giving support on the forum ...


If you want MS to listen to you, you have to be very big and shout very loud, like the US Dept of Defense, the government who gives big juicy contracts ... Also no security update really serves Joe Doe, Most Joes sit behind a router with a firewall and don't keep the secrets of nuclear fusion in a text file on their hard disk. How come I can run Linux without a firewall and anti-virus for years? The trick about security updates is to make the customer feel like he's getting service, for free, GREAT hey?

[SZF2001]

In order to succeed, there must be criticism which of course comes in two delicious flavours, positive and negative, the positive criticizers are writing code, and if the are not able to, debugging, translating, and giving support on the forum ...

Well, what's wrong with negative criticism? If there is no balance of negative and positive, then there really wasn't criticism in the first place. Let's not try and make each other look like the bad guy here.

I'd write code and debug and do whatever I could if I knew how, believe me. But some of us just really can't, but want to support the system regardless.

[fwojciec]

Some criticism is just an expression of frustration -- that kind of criticism is called ranting, I suppose. It is also this kind of criticism that Linus T. had in mind, I think, when he said:
Those that can, do. Those that can't, complain.
I sympathize with your problem, but posts like yours -- let's not fool ourselves -- do nothing to remedy the issue at all.

[23meg]

but let's remember, this isn't a huge COMPLAIN COMPLAIN AAAAAAH thread, we are criticing and trying to help make the system stronger.

What exactly are you criticizing here? And who is your addressee?

[jeffus_il]

Well, what's wrong with negative criticism? If there is no balance of negative and positive, then there really wasn't criticism in the first place. Let's not try and make each other look like the bad guy here.

I'd write code and debug and do whatever I could if I knew how, believe me. But some of us just really can't, but want to support the system regardless.

You are only a bad guy if you feel a bad guy, it's up to you, you may be a good guy for all I know... I prefer positive contributions, if you feel you need to be negative and it's right for you, be my guest.

[saulgoode]

I'd write code and debug and do whatever I could if I knew how, believe me. But some of us just really can't, but want to support the system regardless.
If you could program, for example write code for WIFI drivers, would not you rather code (or maintain existing code) for cards where the companies provide proper documentation, perhaps even example software?

If you do come up with a few extra bucks, would it not be more pragmatic to spend that money supporting one of those Linux-friendly WIFI card companies by purchasing one of their products? Rather than donating to a project which benefits the Linux-unfriendly companies?

[p_quarles]

Moved to Recurring Discussions.

Let's face it: there is no shortage of criticism (of both kinds) about GNU/Linux. Most of the frequent criticisms, it should be added, have people already attempting to find solutions.

Off-topic: This is one reason I've been kind of disappointed with the voting results at Brainstorm. A lot of the top vote-getters are things like "better hardware support," as though there weren't already teams working hard on enabling this.

[SZF2001]

I sympathize with your problem, but posts like yours -- let's not fool ourselves -- do nothing to remedy the issue at all.

So I'm the only guy who doesn't have a working Wifi card? And let's not just think so straight forward - there are people who have issues with sound card, video cards, poker cards, all kinds of cards. ALSA can't fix everything, and OSS isn't exactly the greatest thing... Yet they've come a long way, haven't they? If no one says there is a problem in the first place, then there was never a problem to exist to begin with anyway.

Those that can, do. Those that can't, complain.

Yes, this is coming from the guy who knew what he was doing - or at least didn't at first, and now has a steady hand in knowing EXACTLY what needs to be done. Mr. Torvalds, I can't program, I can't write code, I can't be as smart as you in your field - so how am I to remedy this problem? Complain to companies? They don't listen to their consumers - that's the reason I jumped on the Open Source Ship in the first place. You can just do a search on "wifi" alone, in these forums, and you'll get a huge -HUGE- list of people with this similar problem - and not just my problem, because not everyone has the same crappy card as me. There is a demand, but it just seems like no one is either listening or they'd rather work with a crippled excuse to wrap Windows drivers to make something click. Nothing wrong with ndiswrapper, really, but it wouldn't be necessary if we had drivers in the first place.

What exactly are you criticizing here? And who is your addressee?

Linksys, Broadcam... Wireless card providers, developers, programmers, coders, etc. Anyone who can do anything about the situation. It can't just be me, right? There is demand but no one is willing to take a challenge...

[p_quarles]

If no one says there is a problem in the first place, then there was never a problem to exist to begin with anyway.
You can just do a search on "wifi" alone, in these forums, and you'll get a huge -HUGE- list of people with this similar problem - and not just my problem, because not everyone has the same crappy card as me..
Compare the two statements.

The problems are well-documented, and people complain all the time. There are also people working on these problems. What people are saying here is that adding to the list of those complaining isn't likely to add to the number of people working on solutions. We're talking about complicated software that needs to interact with complicated and undocumented hardware. It requires a great deal of knowledge and skill to even begin to tackle this kind of thing.

I don't think anyone is saying that it isn't a problem. I think people are saying, "Yes, we know it's a problem."

[23meg]

Linksys, Broadcam... Wireless card providers, developers, programmers, coders, etc. Anyone who can do anything about the situation. It can't just be me, right? There is demand but no one is willing to take a challenge...

The flaw in your position is your assumption that Linksys and Broadcom representatives, wireless card vendor managers and Linux kernel developers frequent this forum, and give an ear to what its members say.

They can't hear you here, simply because they're not here. This is a an off-topic forum in a user support website. If you want to address them and criticize them, write to them directly, or post to venues that they actually frequent, if you must.

If you're under the well intentioned but baseless impression that you're reinforcing "the system" by "criticizing" it with posts like this, I'd like to dispel that. Doing otherwise would be condoning the passing of this kind of thing as criticism in the long run.

[SZF2001]

The flaw in your position is your assumption that Linksys and Broadcom representatives, wireless card vendor managers and Linux kernel developers frequent this forum, and give an ear to what its members say.

They can't hear you here, simply because they're not here. This is a an off-topic forum in a user support website. If you want to address them and criticize them, write to them directly, or post to venues that they actually frequent, if you must.

If you're under the well intentioned but baseless impression that you're reinforcing "the system" by "criticizing" it with posts like this, I'd like to dispel that. Doing otherwise would be condoning the passing of this kind of thing as criticism in the long run.
Alright. Visit any other linux forum and it's a problem there too.

Oh hey, if you have a great amount of forum members posting on any given linux forum about a wireless problem... Wow. You realize, suddenly, that the Internet is huge.

What "system"? God dammit, you people, you honestly don't see it do you? You just don't want to critic your precious OS. All OS's have flaws - even the people who pay good money for their Solaris have problem, and that's damn good money too. I'm sure you'd all love to point out the flaws of Windows all day if you could, couldn't you?

It's this attitude I see in a large majority of Linux users that really worries me as this project goes along. The project being, of course, Linux in general.

[p_quarles]

You are (again) missing the point.

1) The problem with wireless that you identify exists
2) It is well-documented and the subject of frequent complaints
3) No one who has posted in this thread is denying this
4) There are people who spend a lot of time working on this very problem
5) Complaining some more doesn't make them work faster
6) Saying "it doesn't work" isn't constructive criticism, particularly when everyone already knows it doesn't work.

Consider this a constructive critique of your original post. There is a difference between the kind of critique that enables improvement, and the kind of critique which is simply venting about one's disappointments. I don't see anything wrong with the latter, and sometimes it can be good to vent. But please do not accuse people of putting on blinkers when we are merely pointing out that you are venting.

[jeffus_il]

Which is not exactly a bad thing. If taken with a better perspective, if taken with an open mind, criticism could change huge key elements of the OS (or any OS with enough voice).


You seem to have done a full circle and are in favour of "positive criticism"

[23meg]

God dammit, you people, you honestly don't see it do you? You just don't want to critic your precious OS. All OS's have flaws - even the people who pay good money for their Solaris have problem, and that's damn good money too. I'm sure you'd all love to point out the flaws of Windows all day if you could, couldn't you?


Let me put it in simpler terms:

1) I want criticism. I want it, because I agree with your basic obvious proposition that "In order to succeed, there must be criticism".

2) This isn't criticism, due to the reasons cited above.

3) If I want criticism, and you're putting this forward as criticism and saying "Hey, this thing I'm doing is needed in order to succeed", the logical thing for me to do would be to say "No, that's not criticism, that's venting in an off-topic forum", right? And that's what I'm doing. I'm saying this as someone who wants more criticism, not less.

[mdsmedia]

You are (again) missing the point.

1) The problem with wireless that you identify exists
2) It is well-documented and the subject of frequent complaints
3) No one who has posted in this thread is denying this
4) There are people who spend a lot of time working on this very problem
5) Complaining some more doesn't make them work faster
6) Saying "it doesn't work" isn't constructive criticism, particularly when everyone already knows it doesn't work.

Consider this a constructive critique of your original post. There is a difference between the kind of critique that enables improvement, and the kind of critique which is simply venting about one's disappointments. I don't see anything wrong with the latter, and sometimes it can be good to vent. But please do not accuse people of putting on blinkers when we are merely pointing out that you are venting.Here Here!!

I can see the frustration in the OP but I also agree that he's not seeing the point.

I'm a Linux noob. I don't know how the system works. But I do know that Linux in general and Ubuntu specifically have come ahead in leaps and bounds addressing hardware problems and other issues in the 2-odd years I've been using Linux.

As a previous poster said, why not support the hardware developers who are supporting Linux, by providing drivers for Linux, rather than supporting the software developers who are providing a method of supporting the hardware developers who DON'T support Linux. It's not Linux developers at fault here....it's hardware developers. NDISWRAPPER and WINE are wonderful projects and nothing against them, but use wrapper if u have to and use Wine if u have to, but given the oppurtunity, support those who support you.

[jeffus_il]

Here Here!!

I can see the frustration in the OP but I also agree that he's not seeing the point.

I'm a Linux noob. I don't know how the system works. But I do know that Linux in general and Ubuntu specifically have come ahead in leaps and bounds addressing hardware problems and other issues in the 2-odd years I've been using Linux.

As a previous poster said, why not support the hardware developers who are supporting Linux, by providing drivers for Linux, rather than supporting the software developers who are providing a method of supporting the hardware developers who DON'T support Linux. It's not Linux developers at fault here....it's hardware developers. NDISWRAPPER and WINE are wonderful projects and nothing against them, but use wrapper if u have to and use Wine if u have to, but given the oppurtunity, support those who support you.

No one is at fault, Historically I don't know if there is another non-commercial product that developed so well and so fast mainly based on voluntary contributions. The fact that people, even those for Windows and against Linux are prepared to make the comparison is a monumental achievement, specially taking into account the vast financial advantage that windows has, so taking this into account, the positive spirit of community and the will to give without remuneration, creates a wonderful atmosphere, the atmosphere that you feel on this forum, I don't think it's a question of exactly what is being done or even if it is being done on time, but rather a question of spirit and atmosphere on which the whole community is built, which gives momentum to the amazing progress and development.

[hyper_ch]

You can just do a search on "wifi" alone, in these forums, and you'll get a huge -HUGE- list of people with this similar problem - and not just my problem, because not everyone has the same crappy card as me.

Do you expect that on a support forum there are no complaints at all, that all people write "hey this and that works"?

Just curious, have you ever written in a M$ support forum only about the things that work and congratulated the programmers on that? I don't think so...

Being under the impression that in a support forum there shouldn't be any postings about things that don't work (properly) is kinda missing the point of a support forum.

[mdsmedia]

No one is at fault, Historically I don't know if there is another non-commercial product that developed so well and so fast mainly based on voluntary contributions. The fact that people, even those for Windows and against Linux are prepared to make the comparison is a monumental achievement, specially taking into account the vast financial advantage that windows has, so taking this into account, the positive spirit of community and the will to give without remuneration, creates a wonderful atmosphere, the atmosphere that you feel on this forum, I don't think it's a question of exactly what is being done or even if it is being done on time, but rather a question of spirit and atmosphere on which the whole community is built, which gives momentum to the amazing progress and development.When I said that the hardware developers were at fault, what I meant was that it is the hardware developers who develop drivers for Windows...not Linux. What I meant was that you can't blame Linux developers for hardware incompatibilities, when Windows developers don't write the drivers, the hardware developers do.

[jeffus_il]

The wireless drivers are developing fast, most wireless cards have a driver option, at least one, I have 5 computers with differing cards, all work, quite amazing considering that most drivers are written without cooperation of the hardware manufacturer, using difficult reverse engineering techniques. Remember that Uncle Bill, in Seattle sits at his little desk. The hardware manufacturers wait patiently in line for his stamp of approval (WHQL Certification) on their driver software.

[mdsmedia]

Agreed, and that is exactly my point.

Linux developers are doing a wonderful job of making more and more hardware compatible.

It's not a matter of Linux being incompatible with hardware, it's a matter of hardware being incompatible with Linux.

And Linux is making great strides to compatibility with more and more hardware, while hardware makes great strides for compatibility with Windows.

It's always going to be a difficult race for Linux, while on the other side of the fence hardware tries to keep up with Windows.