What would make Ubuntu win the Desktop War? This.

[Redrazor39]

I know this is a long post but it is worth reading every word

Linux has a great philosophy. Ubuntu has a great philosophy and a philosophy upon the philosophy of Linux that makes using Ubuntu a philosophical experience beyond any other software of any kind. What does all this mean? Let me explain.

The Linux philosophy is basically freedom in your software. You have the freedom to get any software free of charge, and you have the freedom to change your software any way you want, distribute it how you want, and learn the “secrets” and submit any ideas you want. The Ubuntu philosophy (originally) is “I am what I am because of who we all are”, which means everyone should work together as a community of unity in which everyone does something for another. Those with experience help those in need of help, and those who have newly-gained knowledge use it to help others. Those who know how to work with the code do so and accept the ideas of others, whether they know how to use the code or not, and implement those ideas along with their own using their knowledge and experience with software. Ubuntu’s motto is “Linux for human beings”. When I first saw this, I thought it may offend other Linux users, but soon realized the real meaning behind it. Most distributions of Linux are more advanced-user-inclined, rather than an easy-to-use, simple OS for everyone. The latter is what Ubuntu must become.
Right now, Ubuntu is tribal, just as my avatar shows. It’s not quite the nice, smooth, simple OS that the logo portrays. It’s wild, sometimes hard to understand, and is only accepting of those who know exactly what to do. We all need to work together to even out the spikes on Ubuntu’s hard edges and turn it into what we all want it to be: the easy-to-use OS for everyone that works on almost any hardware, and best of all, is free of charge and free of restrictions. There are a few things we must do to take it to that next level. It can be mostly little things, but there are some major changes, too, that are simple enough that they CAN be done, but haven’t been done.

1. GUI is your friend. I’m not at all saying the terminal is bad. It’s a great way to get things done quickly and easily, but we need to make sure almost everything that can be done in the terminal can be done via GUI. Newbies and people not big on computers love to be able to just point and click their way through a computer without worry about all the stuff behind the scenes. Text-based things scare them. Even Bill Gates, after developing later versions of Windows, once said “MS-DOS is ugly and not user friendly.” The terminal is not nearly as bad, but still. It reminds people of the troubles they had with MS-DOS or forces them to remember text-based commands. Not fun. GRUB also needs to become GUI-based. Arrow keys are good, but some people get scared if there’s no pointer on the screen. We need to have this: Show an Ubuntu logo in color for loading Ubuntu, then below that, in black and white, have Ubuntu Recovery mode. Then, even lower, in a font like this, have the Ubuntu memtest option. On the other side, we should have pre-set logos for different OS’s. When it recognizes an OS such as Windows Vista, show the Windows Vista logo and the recovery option in a black-and-white Vista logo. In XP, show the XP logo and a black-and-white one for recovery. For Mac OS X, show the “X” logo and then a black-and-white one with only 80% opacity for recovery (if there is a recovery mode on Mac OS X partitions, I’m not really sure because I do not own a Macintosh Computer). Also, have the GRUB configuration program in a GUI and Drop-Down-Menu based system. If GRUB recognizes your other OS wrong, then just go into GRUB configuration and choose the real OS from the drop-down-menu. Think Vista power options configuration- that style.

2. Speed, Speed, and more Speed (no, not the drug). Ubuntu should be the fastest OS on the planet. It should start up in 30 seconds or less on decent hardware, and about a minute on old hardware. Application speeds are fine, but if that can be upped, make sure it gets upped. Mainly, if one is starting up a computer, you want it ready a minute ago. If you are shutting down, it’s not a huge thing, so the current speed is fine, but as long as you can close the laptop lid when the loading bar is going backwards, then it is ok. It should just continue to shut down as the laptop lid is closed until it is fully off. Remember, both those into computers and those not-so-familiar with them like when computers do what they want, and fast.

3. Hardware Support. We should be able to tell people that Ubuntu will run like a charm on almost any hardware and will be FULLY supported on any commercial hardware (at least from Sony, Dell, HP, Lenovo, Apple, and maybe Acer) 2 or more years old. This may sound like a big promise, but it seems possible. The first part is almost true right now, but with the second part, we really need to step it up a notch. Sony hardware has been a problem because Sony is not really supporting Linux, but that’s not fair to the people who spent their computer money on Sony hardware and LATER found out about Linux. All this means is less effort from company = more effort from us to write drivers, etc. Canonical is a company that can afford to buy test models and we can all work together to write and perfect drivers.

Those three are the most important steps to take. By doing this, Ubuntu will fly ahead as the best option in the OS decision. There is one thing that most Ubuntu users think that I just hate. It’s just wrong. It’s that people say “Linux is not for everybody. If Linux is not for you, go back to Windows.” This may apply to some distros. BUT IT SHOULD NOT APPLY TO UBUNTU BY ANY MEANS!!! It is this mentality that gets us nowhere and happy that our OS works at all. Right now, it’s true. But, we need to make sure that we can prove that 100% and completely false! AND SOON! We need to turn Ubuntu into the ultimate OS for everyone, for almost all hardware, for doing anything and everything.

Right now I see a lot of “Why Ubuntu is better than Windows”. Well, we need more “Why Ubuntu is better than Windows or Mac”. Ubuntu needs to blow macs out of the water while being free at the same time.

We need to win users like Microsoft and Apple want customers. With more support and more users, we have more ideas. More ideas = more motivation to learn = more people “in the know” of developing for Ubuntu = extremely fast improvement rate = a world of innovation = an OS so great that commercial companies just can’t keep up with unless they blatantly copy and paste Ubuntu’s code.

We need to do this. This must be done. How can Ubuntu succeed to push Linux and let people know? We are not forcing Linux, or anything, down people’s throats, but people need to learn. People are scared to try Linux. People don’t want to. We just show it to them, and the ones who like it come. Then, we and the others who have come help those in need. It works perfectly.

Dell will also get more sales, which will incline them to go farther with Ubuntu, which will make it easier for people who like Ubuntu and want to switch but don’t want to risk the install/hardware malfunctions can just go buy an Ubuntu laptop.
This way, Ubuntu will succeed and software will be what it should.

I’m leaving this up for editing and adding to because that’s pretty much the Ubuntu spirit and also, I’m not perfect and I probably didn’t cover everything. I encourage you to quote this, edit it in red, and repost until we get something perfect to show everyone and really make a difference.

[CaptainCabinet]

I've gotta hand it to you for typing up all this to post on a forum. More than I could do. :D
I'm sure with plenty of suggestions and contributions this article could get even better.

[zetetic]

I see the OP is contaminated with philosophy of the Windoze world...

Ubuntu should not try to win any "desktop war". It should only try to became better and better.

Also, the gui interface is the interface of the caveman: point, click and grunt.

So we already have too much gui interfaces.

[Redrazor39]

I see the OP is contaminated with philosophy of the Windoze world...

Ubuntu should not try to win any "desktop war". It should only try to became better and better.

Also, the gui interface is the interface of the caveman: point, click and grunt.

So we already have too much gui interfaces.

True, I have been using Windows pretty much all my life, but I disagree. What is the point of it becoming better if hardly anyone uses it, and HOW would it become better if there's nobody to make it better? With more people, we have more ideas, and more people to make it better.

Also, I see that you prefer text interfaces. Some people do not in the slightest understand text interfaces and are scared to use them. I think we should have both options. Text interface is already done. You type in the command, and out comes what you want (usually). Some people NEED something like Ubuntu, think developing countries and even people in developed countries that do not understand computers and need to use one nevertheless, or many other cases. It's not just all about you. There are lots of people who Ubuntu would really benefit, if we make changes like this.

[Redrazor39]

I've gotta hand it to you for typing up all this to post on a forum. More than I could do. :D
I'm sure with plenty of suggestions and contributions this article could get even better.

lol thanks. I had to get it out somewhere and this seemed to be a great place to do it. And also, it would be really cool if this became a wiki somewhere and Canonical and other Ubuntu devs checked up on it so they knew what people are really looking for.

[Victormd]

Good job! Can't think of anything to add right now but I'll be coming back soon enough..

[Redrazor39]

thnx :)

[Redrazor39]

I also have a friend who was very interested in Ubuntu. I told him it was fast, ran on almost any hardware, and was COMPLETELY free of charge (as well as all the software for it). There were also no viruses and hackers didn't really target it. He was shocked. He really wanted Ubuntu. Then, he asked me the question, "Can you run Windows Programs on it?" and I said, "No, but there is a thing called WINE that can run some, but it doesn't work too well." He was then turned away from Ubuntu and Linux.

Let's face it. WINE sucks. If it's not an emulator (which I don't even know what that means), then what the heck is it? And why can it only run a few programs, and often there are serious compatibility issues?

Why don't we have something like Parallels Desktop, so it'll be fine if or if it doesn't require a windows install CD, as long as you can run Windows Programs perfectly and without fully booting up Windows. This should apply to games, too, but that may be hard to get them to work fast and correctly.

Nevertheless, we should have something like this by now that actually works. I tried to install free studio manager with WINE and it kept giving me error messages, it looked like something from the 1800s, and half the time it would freeze up whenever I clicked something. This isn't how it should work.

[zetetic]

What's the point of running a free operating system if we use it to run "windoze" proprietary programs?

Everyone who wants to run "windoze" applications should just use windoze.

Please, don't try to contaminate a free operating system with proprietary applications. That would be the end of free software and all the advantages of Linux would dye shortly.

[Redrazor39]

No, you misunderstand. Some people NEED certain windows apps. By allowing them to use them while still having the speed, reliability, and all the other free software in Linux, then more people will be inclined to use it and then of those who newly use it, some will want to learn how to develop for it (I do, I plan to learn the basics over the summer, if possible) and Ubuntu will become "better and better", as you said it should.

[aysiu]

I've moved this to Recurring Discussions, as it is quite frequent that we get these "I have all these great idea about how to improve Ubuntu and win the desktop" threads.

Here are some examples for you:
Can, should, and will the console go away? (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=702739)
why is ubuntu not "sufficiently"user friendly??? (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=703581)
linux still is far behind... (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=688074)
Why Linux Will Probably Never Overtake Windows (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=632332)
Can Linux Ever Displace Windows? (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=651067)
what linux needs? (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=662676)
What is preventing linux mainstream adoption? (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=620304)
Command-line vs. graphical user interface (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=623518)
What's the single biggest barrier to Ubuntu and Linux adoption? (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=443565)
Another Linux Desktop Readiness Thread (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=624481)
I want Ubuntu to succeed, but... (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=625116)
Nice idea but.... (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=570417)
Linux really needs some standardization! (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=569105)
What Linux Needs! (Ubuntu) (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=568153)

If you believe you have a good suggestion for Ubuntu, then you can add it to the newly opened Ubuntu Brainstorm website:
http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/

If you just want a long, drawn-out discussion about winning the desktop, you can add to the Linux Desktop Readiness Thread (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=450676), which already has 9109 posts in it.

[zetetic]

If some people need to run some windoze programs on Linux then they should ask its manufacturers to compile them to Linux!

They are the clients! If the manufacturers don't port those programs to Linux, then they off course should stop using them!

It makes no sense at all people working for free just to give those manufactures the opportunity of earning more money with no effort or work at all!

What are you defending? Slavery??

If you defend slavery, why don't you give the example and become a slave? Why don't you start coding in order to permit manufacturers sell more licenses? I suspect they are willing to accept slave work, cause it costs them no money and with the benefit of selling licenses for the Linux "market".

Sorry, but I'm fed up with these kind of disrespectful and "not so smart" attitude.

[Redrazor39]

Seriously, WHAT major company with important programs will really go throught the effort to compile their programs for Linux? Especially when they are just asked to? They don't believe in the same philosophy we do.

I am only saying that there are people who need certain Windows apps for work, etc. Sometimes, the company they work for develops their own unique program for the sole purpose of their work in the company. What if someone needs that for home, too? Then what if they run Linux instead of Windows?

It's not like manufacturers will make a huge amount of money. It would be the same if people used Windows or if they use Linux with this way of running Windows apps. If there was an increase in those manufacturers sales, it would greatly benefit Linux users because it would only be people using Linux who need or really want a certain Windows app, that may even be free in the first place.

You seem to be revolting against companies that sell software rather than helping people who need something like Linux and what I am suggesting

And to aysiu, thanks for the link to the brainstorm thing. I'll be sure to bookmark that.

[roderick]

Some people just do not get it.

All this software is freely written for the most part by people who use it. If you have a problem with something not working, learn to code it yourself and stop complaining about how Wine sucks, or [insert other free software name here].

If you really and truly want to make it better, then contribute something to the community, whether it's a patch, a program to replace a windows equivalent or donate some money to a developer or purchase some linux software to aid a developer or company which supports linux.

As in all things in life, the old adage "you get what you paid for" is certainly true here. If you paid nothing, you really shouldn't expect it to work exactly like windows or mac. However, once you start contributing in some way, you are in a sense "paying" for something, and overtime, you will get a better system.

At least, that's my take on things.

Remember, Linux has only been around since the early 90's, and Microsoft has been around longer than that and still hasn't gotten the desktop 100% perfect. Given also that Linux as a desktop has really only recently been truly achievable, it is still quite young indeed. We should be celebrating that users can and do use it at their primary desktop. Stop complaining about what it doesn't do and instead be a part of the solution.

[saulgoode]

It's not like manufacturers will make a huge amount of money. It would be the same if people used Windows or if they use Linux with this way of running Windows apps. If there was an increase in those manufacturers sales, it would greatly benefit Linux users because it would only be people using Linux who need or really want a certain Windows app, that may even be free in the first place.

Why don't Microsoft developers work on making Linux programs run on Windows? Surely that would only benefit Windows users. But hmmm... there is no benefit to Microsoft developers. Likewise there is no benefit to Linux developers in working on enabling Windows programs to run on Linux.

I look forward to your contributions to Free Software in the future. You will then certainly be able to work for free on ways to increase the dividends paid to stockholders of Adobe, Microsoft, or whatever other company chooses not to support the system on which you develop your code. More likely, once you develop coding skills and start to appreciate all of the contributions other Free Software developers have made to make your job easier, you will decide to help them rather than some company that doesn't give a rodent's fundament about what you are doing.

[Redrazor39]

1) I don't know a single line of code, I plan to learn some basics over the summer, and I don't have access to many funds (I'm just a kid, in case you haven't noticed)
2) That's a very selfish view on what Linux is/should be. Linux, or at least Ubuntu, should be a community-driven and developed OS with community-developed software in which anyone can contribute to, whether they don't know a line of code, don't have any money, or don't have any ideas. They will most likely have one of the three and can contribute that.
3) You don't understand. A lot of people don't understand. Some people want to break away from the corporate marketing system and create an OS for themselves that they own themselves and don't care about anyone else because they are perfect and know everything about software or about anything that can be done with software. This should not be the goal. How often has a revolt with the sole purpose of revolting worked out? If you're not up to speed on your history then I'll tell you it hasn't worked. Tell me one survivable empire-- oh wait, they didn't want to make an empire or create a surviving civilization, they just wanted to get away from <insert other civilization here>.

People tell me the purpose of Ubuntu is not to make an OS for everyone and let everyone work together. The purpose is to make the best OS and make it better and better. Well tell me this, HOW IN THE WORLD WILL IT GET ANY BETTER IF THERE'S ONLY A FEW PEOPLE TO WORK ON IT?? WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THEY RUN OUT OF IDEAS AND CODE? What I'm suggesting is NOT a marketing mentality. The mentality is to TEACH people about Linux, and specifically, Ubuntu, and allow them to come in if they like the (true) philosophy behind it. Then, they can learn the code if they wish to, they can submit ideas to places, and they can have developers work with them to make those ideas a reality. In turn, they will be more inclined to learn what the developers can do and become devs themselves.

I keep having to repeat this, but some people just don't seem to understand. With more people who know about Linux (Ubuntu) = more people who want to use it = More users = more ideas + more people who want to learn the code = more developers + those ideas = a great OS anyone can use that is free, simple or complex as the user wants, and free of restrictions.

I know Linux hasn't been around as long, but look how many people CAN and SHOULD BE contributing to it and look at how many people are on the Windows division at Microsoft. Sure, those at Microsoft are paid workers, but the devs for Linux should not be so selfish. Look at the philosophies pasted all over the Ubuntu website. Not what I'm seeing from you and people like you, roderick.

Lastly, if what you say is correct, then how would contributing get me a better system any faster than what I suggest?

[roderick]

I know Linux hasn't been around as long, but look how many people CAN and SHOULD BE contributing to it and look at how many people are on the Windows division at Microsoft. Sure, those at Microsoft are paid workers, but the devs for Linux should not be so selfish. Look at the philosophies pasted all over the Ubuntu website. Not what I'm seeing from you and people like you, roderick.

Lastly, if what you say is correct, then how would contributing get me a better system any faster than what I suggest?

Do you think you know me? How about you read my blog and see that I actually contribute in different ways. I try and give back to the community. I know the limitations of Linux and the current software, but I do not let it stop me from helping people use it. I show them alternatives and when something breaks, I help them fix it rather than saying it sux :)

I have been using Linux since 93... I have been through all the ups and downs, developing code, submitting patches, and helping others.

How exactly are the devs selfish? What is it you think I should be doing? What is it you should be doing, as you are part of the mass of people using this OS now?

[Redrazor39]

Why don't Microsoft developers work on making Linux programs run on Windows? Surely that would only benefit Windows users. But hmmm... there is no benefit to Microsoft developers. Likewise there is no benefit to Linux developers in working on enabling Windows programs to run on Linux.

I look forward to your contributions to Free Software in the future. You will then certainly be able to work for free on ways to increase the dividends paid to stockholders of Adobe, Microsoft, or whatever other company chooses not to support the system on which you develop your code. More likely, once you develop coding skills and start to appreciate all of the contributions other Free Software developers have made to make your job easier, you will decide to help them rather than some company that doesn't give a rodent's fundament about what you are doing.

Just as you say, these companies don't give a rodent's fundament (whatever that is). This renders your Microsoft example null, void, and inapplicable.

Microsoft developers (aside from the above reason) don't do this because there is no/little benefit for Microsoft or the Windows user because a lot of essential/awesome Linux software already works for Windows because those devs already did that. Microsofts devs would then be wasting time, and time is money.

I do greatly appreciate what the Linux devs are doing so greatly I could not express it in a post, or even a thread. They have all done so much it is incredible. I am not saying their efforts have been futile and they are failures, not in the slightest. I am suggesting ways to improve this even more and make their lives even easier]. With more devs=less work for the other devs with even more production.

Thank you for that second paragraph. I look forward to learning Linux code and improving it and developing for it. I promise to submit anything good I make to the community, if I can make anything good lol.

I once read a new user guide to Linux. It said the Linux philosophy has sadly become "I'll create software for me that works for me and I'll let other people have it, but I don't give a darn if it works or not for them."

This should not be the philosophy in the slightest. People should develop for the end-user, because they are the end-users. Then, they should submit it to the community, explain it, and allow anyone to improve it and especially continue to improve it themselves if possible. Not everyone can code software, and not everyone has access to developing tools or a developer. What do they do, then?

The Linux (or at least Ubuntu) philosophy should be able to help others and the community, and let people do what they want, in that order of priority. It's human nature to try to benefit yourself, so that comes naturally, but if everyone just keeps those two things in mind, it will all come together so beautifully that Ubuntu will become the near-perfect OS everybody wants.

[Omnios]

K Ubuntu and Linux is supported by Little Tommy.

As for windows programs and games things may improve in the
future. Wine has been around for a while now but there are some new developments out there. The one that impressed me the most is a wine type binary thingy that takes windows dlls etc and changes them to ones that will run in linux. This could possibly be the biggest development for linux as it would greatly reduce the price of porting windows games and software to linux.

The biggest problem here is a mind set in that a lot of windows shall we say people feel that there is no linux market or the price of a port does not meet the damand for linux. Such developments may solve this. One problem is they will have to push these developments which is not a easy thing for Linux in the windows community.

[Redrazor39]

Do you think you know me? How about you read my blog and see that I actually contribute in different ways. I try and give back to the community. I know the limitations of Linux and the current software, but I do not let it stop me from helping people use it. I show them alternatives and when something breaks, I help them fix it rather than saying it sux :)

I have been using Linux since 93... I have been through all the ups and downs, developing code, submitting patches, and helping others.

How exactly are the devs selfish? What is it you think I should be doing? What is it you should be doing, as you are part of the mass of people using this OS now?

I did not say that you were selfish. Check what you quoted. Check what I said. I said from what I am seeing, which is your post and your post alone, and what you are saying, this seems a bit selfish. Look at your post. You basically said "Shut up and learn some code, n00b".

[Redrazor39]

K Ubuntu and Linux is supported by Little Tommy.

As for windows programs and games things may improve in the
future. Wine has been around for a while now but there are some new developments out there. The one that impressed me the most is a wine type binary thingy that takes windows dlls etc and changes them to ones that will run in linux. This could possibly be the biggest development for linux as it would greatly reduce the price of porting windows games and software to linux.

The biggest problem here is a mind set in that a lot of windows shall we say people feel that there is no linux market or the price of a port does not meet the damand for linux. Such developments may solve this. One problem is they will have to push these developments which is not a easy thing for Linux in the windows community.

That's pretty incredible and a great thing, but about the second paragraph, I agree.

Linux should become the miracle between Windows and Mac. Better than macs in terms of usability, quality of software, and of course the freedom aspect, while making it easy for windows users to switch and use necessary windows apps while enjoying the great Linux alternatives.

[zetetic]

"HOW IN THE WORLD WILL IT GET ANY BETTER IF THERE'S ONLY A FEW PEOPLE TO WORK ON IT??"

Well, Redrazor39, it's you who are not understanding.

Linux is already so much better then Windoze that it's simply not possible for windoze to achieve the quality of Linux.

For windoze to became as good as Linux it should completely change it's philosophy and has its code completely rewritten.

So it's not Linux who needs to change anything in its development model, principles and structure...

We only need to get better cause we must always try to improve things, even when what we already have is the best thing on earth.

[roderick]

You basically said "Shut up and learn some code, n00b".

That's certainly one way you could take it.

All I was aiming to point out was be a part of the solution rather than part of the problem.

The problem being people who complain rather than trying to be helpful. A lot more will get accomplished if everyone simply helped fix problems (not necessarily via coding - i.e. teaching is a valid option).

So, if you want to boil my statement down to something simple, it would be "let's all be positive and give something back".

[Redrazor39]

"HOW IN THE WORLD WILL IT GET ANY BETTER IF THERE'S ONLY A FEW PEOPLE TO WORK ON IT??"

Well, Redrazor39, it's you who are not understanding.

Linux is already so much better then Windoze that it's simply not possible for windoze to achieve the quality of Linux.

For windoze to became as good as Linux it should completely change it's philosophy and has its code completely rewritten.

So it's not Linux who needs to change anything in its development model, principles and structure...

We only need to get better cause we must always try to improve things, even when what we already have is the best thing on earth.

Maybe in the advanced users' perspective, yes. But in the newbie, no. What about all those people in developing countries who don't know a thing about computers but can't afford Windows or Mac computers? This is basically a HUGELY HELPFUL charity service and community service, really... well, almost it's own government around the world online.

And you just went back about 10 steps in this "debate", if you will. Look at what the philosophy is said to be, and look what it's become/becoming in some cases as I stated in earlier posts.

[Redrazor39]

That's certainly one way you could take it.

All I was aiming to point out was be a part of the solution rather than part of the problem.

The problem being people who complain rather than trying to be helpful. A lot more will get accomplished if everyone simply helped fix problems (not necessarily via coding - i.e. teaching is a valid option).

So, if you want to boil my statement down to something simple, it would be "let's all be positive and give something back".

That makes more sense, especially about the part where coding is not the only way to give back. Right now I'm trying to give by showing a solution to get ubuntu farther than it has ever been/will be with the older system/philosophy.

Simplicity is the best weapon.

[roderick]

That makes more sense, especially about the part where coding is not the only way to give back. Right now I'm trying to give by showing a solution to get ubuntu farther than it has ever been/will be with the older system/philosophy.

Simplicity is the best weapon.

Actions speak louder than words. So, If you would like, I can tutor you in coding, teaching, or whatever else I can offer. If you truly wish to be a part of the solution, I will help.

[Redrazor39]

true! I have been looking for a place or person where I can learn because I have some ideas, but no way to implement them! :(

I don't really have much time now, because of school and other stuff, but over the summer I'm pretty much free. I plan to learn as much as I can then.

Thank you for your offer! I will keep this remembered and with me so I know who to come to

[Omnios]

Linux has something to it that Windows will never have. When you buy windows and use it you are a windows user.

When you install Linux you become part of the linux community and if you are reading this you are part of this linux community.

[p_quarles]

This link (it was stickied until recently) has a lot of information on different ways to help out. Scroll to the bottom to find it. The stuff toward the top is more about criticisms and FAQs.
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=408434

[elgilicious]

This is a classic case of people not using something because no one else uses it. Only after more people are introduced to it will it catch on. It has to start at the top, furthermore. Once the execs make it company policy to use a free operating system, then people downstream will get the message.

[chips24]

im trying to convince my mom to switch to Ubuntu, she just started working at charter and im slowly luring her in to linux, like converting somone to christianity. wine is remarkably fast! it runs twice as fast os windows its self. im loven it! it just keeps gettin better and better! so i want my mom to join!

she has a infected WIN me and a crappy WIN XP

vista is the only good microsoft OS!

[NightwishFan]

I admit a while ago before I started Linux, my beliefs were based solely on propaganda. I never heard of Linux and I thought Macs were bad. If it would truly be for the benefit for Ubuntu to be rapidly adopted, the only way to go about it is to spread the word. Everyone would need to know that it isn't just Windows and Mac. They also would need to know Ubuntu is not just a joke playing around with Microsoft code. (Which some close to me think when I show them Ubuntu)

[chips24]

"HOW IN THE WORLD WILL IT GET ANY BETTER IF THERE'S ONLY A FEW PEOPLE TO WORK ON IT??"

Well, Redrazor39, it's you who are not understanding.

Linux is already so much better then Windoze that it's simply not possible for windoze to achieve the quality of Linux.

For windoze to became as good as Linux it should completely change it's philosophy and has its code completely rewritten.

So it's not Linux who needs to change anything in its development model, principles and structure...

We only need to get better cause we must always try to improve things, even when what we already have is the best thing on earth.

i have high standards for vista, its great!
every thing else in microsoft sucks.

[Redrazor39]

Yes, we all know vista rocks. But we need to get the word out for ubuntu and make it easier to switch, as well as fastest OS ever.

[NightwishFan]

I liked Vista at first. However what it calls "features" are just a facade. Microsoft also gets off acting like DRM enforcement is a good thing. Please to not accuse me of Windows bashing. It is more Microsoft bashing, I will accept that. An OS should not be made to restrict it's user is all I mean.

[DMK62]

Just my 2 cents worth here.

I do not think that linux distributions have the desire, aim, or motivation to dominate the computer OS market. For the most part it's a community driven effort and their focus is working on continually advancing the system and if they were to focus primarily on making the system easier for " Windows " users then advancement would grind to a halt or dramatically slow down. You can only simplify something to a certain point before it becomes unusable. Ubuntu does make a good effort at trying to simplify some things for new users. Heaven forbid the day that I do a file search on linux and I have a puppy show up in my search window.

The linux community is already involved in the third world countries as the laptops being distributed currently run linux. The children using them did not grow up with Windows or Macs and they are definitely not going to be saying... geez Gimp sucks and I wish Photoshop would run on this computer. It gives them the necessary tools to educate them in the use of computers and applications. A word processor for example ( be it ms word or open office ) is still a word processor. Canonical already has a version of Ubuntu named Edbuntu geared towards children.

Redrazor...

You will find your experience with linux and open source less frustrating and more fullfilling once you stop comparing linux to other os's. Windows and Macs both have their strengths and weaknesses and you learn to live with them. Try applying the same to linux and open source. If you end up running into problems with linux then spend some time if you can and learn as much about the problem as you can and assist others with that knowledge in any form you can. It's not just a community based os and software platform but a community that assists each other.

Roderick ...

Looking forward to reading your blog ( fellow Kubuntu user ). Don't overdo the shovelling out there in NL. Done way too much of that here in Quebec lol.

Dale

[BLTicklemonster]

You left off SIMPLE RELIABLE NETWORKING.

Heck it's fine just the way it is except for that.

[keykero]

Please, don't try to contaminate a free operating system with proprietary applications. That would be the end of free software and all the advantages of Linux would dye shortly.

Wow, what a dumb thing to say. There are many proprietary professional applications that run under Linux and have for years. Do some research before making dumb statements. I'll start your research off: Maya, Shake.

What Linux needs is MORE native, proprietary apps, and then more people might start to take it seriously.

[keykero]

GRUB also needs to become GUI-based.

After adding that whole map (hd0) (hd1) sequence and such and not having it work on reboot because I left the space out, I totally agree. Even when you know what you're doing from the command line or a text editor, having to spell your way through everything gets tedious.

[saulgoode]

Redrazor,

I've missed a lot of posts since page 2, but I wished to respond to your response to my post. I mean you no ill will and if we end up disagreeing on things, it will not be the first time in history that two people have disagreed. :)

1) I don't know a single line of code, I plan to learn some basics over the summer, and I don't have access to many funds (I'm just a kid, in case you haven't noticed)

The main reason I switched to GNU/Linux over a decade ago was because of the high cost of development tools and documentation for Microsoft Windows. Compilers for various languages cost hundreds of dollars and proper documentation of the Windows API was over a thousand -- and some documentation is NEVER made available. Even today, Microsoft does not reveal all of the details about how developers are supposed to write programs for Windows (last week their CEO, Steve Balmer, promised that it would be coming Real Soon Now).

I say this not to "trash" Microsoft, but merely to contrast it with learning to program on GNU/Linux (forgive me for calling it "GNU/Linux", I don't mind that much if the operating system is called "Linux" but 90% of the programming tools are GNU so it seems more appropriate to me when talking about programming on Linux). 100% of the documentation for GNU/Linux is not only available, but available for free (I learned more about DOS/Windows from Linux documentation than I could from Microsoft's). 100% of the programming tools for GNU/Linux is available for free -- and as you become more learned about programming, you will come to appreciate how advanced the tools available are.

2) That's a very selfish view on what Linux is/should be. Linux, or at least Ubuntu, should be a community-driven and developed OS with community-developed software in which anyone can contribute to, whether they don't know a line of code, don't have any money, or don't have any ideas. They will most likely have one of the three and can contribute that.

It is indeed a bit selfish to only work on things I wish to work on. But in your follow up post you sympathized with the Microsoft devs, noting that to them "time is money". If their time is so valuable, why should not also be the time of a Free Software developer?

3) You don't understand. A lot of people don't understand. Some people want to break away from the corporate marketing system and create an OS for themselves that they own themselves and don't care about anyone else because they are perfect and know everything about software or about anything that can be done with software. This should not be the goal.
I think you misunderstand. Free Software is not about "breaking away" from another system, it is about developing a system using a process which will produce the best result. It does not matter what share of the "market" Microsoft controls, or even that Microsoft exists at all. Free Software is about the science of computing, not the marketing of it.

People tell me the purpose of Ubuntu is not to make an OS for everyone and let everyone work together. The purpose is to make the best OS and make it better and better. Well tell me this, HOW IN THE WORLD WILL IT GET ANY BETTER IF THERE'S ONLY A FEW PEOPLE TO WORK ON IT?? WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THEY RUN OUT OF IDEAS AND CODE? What I'm suggesting is NOT a marketing mentality. The mentality is to TEACH people about Linux, and specifically, Ubuntu, and allow them to come in if they like the (true) philosophy behind it.
I think one has to accept (at least under the Ubuntu/GNU/FSF/Linux philosophy) that a "better" OS is one that is more Free. So let me ask you this, how in the world will it get any "better" if more people work on making non-Free software run on it?

I keep having to repeat this, but some people just don't seem to understand. With more people who know about Linux (Ubuntu) = more people who want to use it = More users = more ideas + more people who want to learn the code = more developers + those ideas = a great OS anyone can use that is free, simple or complex as the user wants, and free of restrictions.

The three decade's history of Free Software has shown that catering to the interests of proprietary companies hardly ever attracts more volunteer developers. There are a few exceptions with regard to some specific hardware devices (reverse engineering a video card or a printer driver) and more often for proprietary file formats (MPEG, PDF, etc). But WINE would probably not exist except that some Hollywood production outfits such as ILM and Dreamworks funded CodeWeavers' development so they could use Photoshop on their Linux workstations; and Novell's Mono project is still touting the same five applications they announced five years ago.

You can call it "selfish" if you like, but that does not alter the fact that people don't like to volunteer for projects that profit others doing the same work. Even Ubuntu has not seen a great increase in the number of developers since its Hoary Hedgehog days, despite seeing an astounding growth in userbase.

I know Linux hasn't been around as long, but look how many people CAN and SHOULD BE contributing to it and look at how many people are on the Windows division at Microsoft. Sure, those at Microsoft are paid workers, but the devs for Linux should not be so selfish. Look at the philosophies pasted all over the Ubuntu website. Not what I'm seeing from you and people like you, roderick.
I'm not sure to which philosophy you refer. Ubuntu proudly proclaims to be "committed to building an operating system of free software". I don't see how anything I have said (or Roderick, TMK) contradicts that philosophy.

Lastly, if what you say is correct, then how would contributing get me a better system any faster than what I suggest?
If I understand you correctly (and I apologize if I have it wrong), what you are suggesting is that by sacrificing our goals in the short term, we will attract more people to our cause which will enable us to reach our goals in the long term. I have to disagree with this approach. It sounds good but the problem is that the people you attract are not interested in reaching the original goal because you didn't emphasize it when attracting them.

I can't guarantee that I am right in this, nor do I view it in such completely black and white terms. But I am extremely reluctant to adopt the attitude of "the ends justifies the means"; not because the ends do not, but because the means rarely attain them.

But I would encourage you to express your opinions, discuss things with others, decide what you want to do (be selfish!) and then do it. Learn from others but go to your own school.

[Redrazor39]

Wow, I've probably learned more from this thread than anything else I've ever seen about Linux. Let me summarize what I probably should have said and wanted to say, whether it's a good idea or not:

I love the community idea of Linux/Ubuntu. It's just great!

I see your point on proprietary software. Now I realize your answer is much better. We can all work together (and when I get coding skills I'll help) on making alternative software that works with the same formats, is easier to use, and all around more reliable and faster.

The idea I was trying to get across is this: We need to spread the word. I am by no means saying that we should force Linux on people as Microsoft did with Windows by creating "universal" formats, no. I am saying we need to educate people about Linux, and those who are interested will come. For the others, if Linux is not for them, then so be it. They can continue with whatever works for them.

In the very first post, I was saying how Ubuntu could be made easier, not just for the windows and mac converts, but for all of us. YES we should keep the terminal and the traditional methods including text interfaces, YES we should keep the same coding and stuff, I'm just saying that for some people who need something like ubuntu, it would be great if the other option was in an easy, comprehensive, good-looking, and most importantly efficient GUI.

Speed is important because everyone loves it when things work as fast as they want them to. I don't think there are many people that enjoy loading waits.

Hardware support is a big thing because it's great if it's easier for people who want ubuntu to come without many problems with their hardware.

And you guys are doing a great job with software alternatives. I hope to see more to parallel other software (including freeware) on Windows and Mac. It's just the learning curve for a few things that need a little work, but otherwise it's great. I plan to join in with creating and working on this software when I learn how over the summer.

Ubuntu is awesome. Especially since it's all free. I'm just saying spread the word and make it better so more people who can help know, and of those people who can, some will help and Ubuntu will revolutionize the software world.

This is not "selling" for free. This is showing people another way so they know and allowing them to use it for free and eventually, if they want, help.

[BLTicklemonster]

As far as grub is concerned, it needs to automatically do everything in the background. Whatever drive is set at master gets precedent, and everything else falls into place, with fstab being filled in as it goes. Meaning: if I swap some drives, I ought to be able to just boot my computer and go, without ever having to touch anything.

That, and networking would make Ubuntu simple enough for most people.

[Redrazor39]

Networking worked like a charm for me, and I have a fairly new machine. I'm sorry to hear so many people are having troubles with this, better add it to the list (lol)

[SunnyRabbiera]

Here we go again....


1. GUI is your friend. I’m not at all saying the terminal is bad. It’s a great way to get things done quickly and easily, but we need to make sure almost everything that can be done in the terminal can be done via GUI. Newbies and people not big on computers love to be able to just point and click their way through a computer without worry about all the stuff behind the scenes. Text-based things scare them. Even Bill Gates, after developing later versions of Windows, once said “MS-DOS is ugly and not user friendly.” The terminal is not nearly as bad, but still. It reminds people of the troubles they had with MS-DOS or forces them to remember text-based commands. Not fun. GRUB also needs to become GUI-based. Arrow keys are good, but some people get scared if there’s no pointer on the screen. We need to have this: Show an Ubuntu logo in color for loading Ubuntu, then below that, in black and white, have Ubuntu Recovery mode. Then, even lower, in a font like this, have the Ubuntu memtest option. On the other side, we should have pre-set logos for different OS’s. When it recognizes an OS such as Windows Vista, show the Windows Vista logo and the recovery option in a black-and-white Vista logo. In XP, show the XP logo and a black-and-white one for recovery. For Mac OS X, show the “X” logo and then a black-and-white one with only 80% opacity for recovery (if there is a recovery mode on Mac OS X partitions, I’m not really sure because I do not own a Macintosh Computer). Also, have the GRUB configuration program in a GUI and Drop-Down-Menu based system. If GRUB recognizes your other OS wrong, then just go into GRUB configuration and choose the real OS from the drop-down-menu. Think Vista power options configuration- that style.
Well this part I mostly agree with, there should be more GUI tools for the common user.
For one yes grub needs an interface in ubuntu, after all every other linux distro I use has a gui option to choose what session you want so why not ubuntu...

2. Speed, Speed, and more Speed (no, not the drug). Ubuntu should be the fastest OS on the planet. It should start up in 30 seconds or less on decent hardware, and about a minute on old hardware. Application speeds are fine, but if that can be upped, make sure it gets upped. Mainly, if one is starting up a computer, you want it ready a minute ago. If you are shutting down, it’s not a huge thing, so the current speed is fine, but as long as you can close the laptop lid when the loading bar is going backwards, then it is ok. It should just continue to shut down as the laptop lid is closed until it is fully off. Remember, both those into computers and those not-so-familiar with them like when computers do what they want, and fast.
Actually I find Ubuntu pretty fast, of course there is faster and there are cases where I see ubuntu crawling at snail speeds, but it depends on the hardware.
Ubuntu is much faster then windows systems thats for sure.

3. Hardware Support. We should be able to tell people that Ubuntu will run like a charm on almost any hardware and will be FULLY supported on any commercial hardware (at least from Sony, Dell, HP, Lenovo, Apple, and maybe Acer) 2 or more years old. This may sound like a big promise, but it seems possible. The first part is almost true right now, but with the second part, we really need to step it up a notch. Sony hardware has been a problem because Sony is not really supporting Linux, but that’s not fair to the people who spent their computer money on Sony hardware and LATER found out about Linux. All this means is less effort from company = more effort from us to write drivers, etc. Canonical is a company that can afford to buy test models and we can all work together to write and perfect drivers.

Yeh but you are still asking for something we cannot deliver, not every company is going to co operate with us... the door must swing both ways.

[julian67]

I know this is a long post but it is worth reading every word

Linux has a great philosophy. Ubuntu has a great philosophy and a philosophy upon the philosophy of Linux that makes using Ubuntu a philosophical experience beyond any other software of any kind. What does all this mean? Let me explain.

The Linux philosophy is basically freedom in your software. You have the freedom to get any software free of charge,

No, that isn't true. There's no implicit correlation between monetary cost and freedom. If there's some free(dom) software you want but everyone who has a copy wants you to pay for a copy then you will have to pay, but then you are free to distribute at no cost if you like. I'm not sure there is a Linux philosophy but if you're interested in the ethical foundation of free software you could read more at the FSF (http://www.fsf.org/about/). The freedom you get with a free OS comes from the GPL. Fortunately Linux Torvalds changed the Linux kernel license to GPL early on. Linus Torvald's interest is more in technical excellence, it just happens that he can achieve that goal better with a free software license because then everyone benefits form each other's contributions so it works for everyone, the people who value freedom higher than technical excellence and the people who value technical excellence higher than freedom.

Ubuntu famously has bug #1, i.e. it wants to end the state of MS being the dominant player on the dekstop, but it's important to realise that popularity or even technical excellence are not the prime aims of everyone in free software. For many they are secondary aims, the primary is freedom. I think you need to get to know more about these subjects to really be able to comment expertly. Your post is fine imo but it's all stuff that's been said 1000s of times before and will be said 1000s of times again. Like my reply :-)

[Redrazor39]

ya, the door must swing both ways, but is it possible for a user to write drivers for his own hardware made by a commercial company?

Trust me, I'm a total n00b at Linux, and I consider myself that. I am just saying, from a n00b or casual user's point of view, this is how I see ubuntu and this is how I feel about it and this is what I think should be focused on and done.

[julian67]

ya, the door must swing both ways, but is it possible for a user to write drivers for his own hardware made by a commercial company?

Trust me, I'm a total n00b at Linux, and I consider myself that. I am just saying, from a n00b or casual user's point of view, this is how I see ubuntu and this is how I feel about it and this is what I think should be focused on and done.

There probably aren't many individuals who can write their own device drivers, and even those who can are often going to be stuck at the point they ask the vendor for hardware information and get not even a reply. So then there are people who are good at reverse engineering proprietary drivers simply to try to understand how the hardware works (not to copy the proprietary code). I think this is somewhere in the realm of black magic. Fortunately the free software community is not just made of individuals, but also includes companies like Intel, IBM, Novell and lately Dell (kind of) etc who do have the resources and inclination to write drivers for their own hardware and other people's and also have the market force to persuade hardware suppliers to supply specs to the community so the community can write the drivers. A good example is Novell, who are currently working on 3D accelerated open source drivers for ATI cards now that AMD has taken over ATI and is more free software friendly.

[Bokonon]

That, and networking would make Ubuntu simple enough for most people.

I am not so sure I see a big problem. Perhaps on different hardware, it doesn't work that well, but my system works better in Linux than windows. I seamlessly use both work and home setups via wired LAN on XP and Ubuntu, but my wireless connections go a lot smoother in Ubuntu. In XP, I have to manually switch the wireless application path via the Atheros utility. In Ubuntu I just enter my password for the keyring to unlock it and it works. I am sure I could automate that if I tried, but I am OK with entering it.

Both wireless networks use encryption and have a more stable connection in Ubuntu. I hardly ever drop out during a big download in Ubuntu (win XP is also good, but there are a couple of times I lost it). The only thing XP has is the "Ultra" G mode which advertises double the speed, but I seldom see it unless transferring large files. In that case, I almost always take the trouble to connect via wire anyway.

I wish you luck with your networking troubles, but for me, networking works very well in 7.10.

[smartboyathome]

The problem I can see with your GRUB suggestion is that it would lower loading time EXTREMELY since it would have to load XServer or XVesa at runtime. Instead I think GFXBoot with friendlier text (ie, Ubuntu instead of kernel-#, other oses if there are any, and everything extra in an "F2 Advanced options" type thing.

[Redrazor39]

ya, basically just make ubuntu more pretty. The stuff I suggested would be REALLY cool compared to other bootloaders, but I guess this is fine.

[zmjjmz]

About the GRUB thing..
Dreamlinux seems to have implemented nice looks to GRUB, as has MEPIS, and BeaFanatIX which is discontinued.
(Those are just the ones I've tried...)
It's kinda inexcusable that I have to look at a black on white screen with the GRUB menu in Ubuntu.
And the problem with WINE sucking is that they have to reverse engineer the entire Windows API.
Not so easy.
And having GUIs everywhere would be nice, and it would be great if the root GTK2 theme updated with the <user> GTK2 theme. (Unless there's some sort of security problems with that.)
Brainstorm is where this should go though :/

[akiratheoni]

I also have a friend who was very interested in Ubuntu. I told him it was fast, ran on almost any hardware, and was COMPLETELY free of charge (as well as all the software for it). There were also no viruses and hackers didn't really target it. He was shocked. He really wanted Ubuntu. Then, he asked me the question, "Can you run Windows Programs on it?" and I said, "No, but there is a thing called WINE that can run some, but it doesn't work too well." He was then turned away from Ubuntu and Linux.

Let's face it. WINE sucks. If it's not an emulator (which I don't even know what that means), then what the heck is it? And why can it only run a few programs, and often there are serious compatibility issues?

Why don't we have something like Parallels Desktop, so it'll be fine if or if it doesn't require a windows install CD, as long as you can run Windows Programs perfectly and without fully booting up Windows. This should apply to games, too, but that may be hard to get them to work fast and correctly.

Nevertheless, we should have something like this by now that actually works. I tried to install free studio manager with WINE and it kept giving me error messages, it looked like something from the 1800s, and half the time it would freeze up whenever I clicked something. This isn't how it should work.

I'm sorry but I just can't take this. Wine has been in development for years and they haven't released a version 1 yet. Why? Because Microsoft refuses to release their specs and API calls. So the Wine developers are working their asses off for something they don't have to do, just so you can run Windows programs on Linux. It's not perfect, I'll give you that, but at least give them credit. Keep in mind Wine just got compatibility with Photoshop CS2. They're trying, very hard. I just don't like how you say it 'sucks' when you haven't done anything to help them.

By the way, Wine is a compatibility layer, not an emulator. So that answers one of your questions.

You're thinking too ideologically here... this is the route Ubuntu is going to be taking with more GUI applications and better compatibility with hardware. It's already happening, just not at a rate you want it to be. What you are saying isn't in any way unique no matter how long or how well you defend your argument. It's already been said and guess what... it's being worked on. Things like this just don't happen over night. It's going to take awhile but it will happen eventually. You're like the radicals who pushed for the immediate abolition of slavery... thinking too far ahead. What happened? Yes, slavery was gone! But not immediately. Give it time.

I'm not against you -- I do want everything you want but I already know it's not going to happen immediately. But it is happening. So to compensate I simply buy Linux-compatible hardware, learn the CLI, and use Linux-compatible software.

[Victormd]

I'm sorry but I just can't take this. Wine has been in development for years and they haven't released a version 1 yet. Why? Because Microsoft refuses to release their specs and API calls. So the Wine developers are working their asses off for something they don't have to do, just so you can run Windows programs on Linux. It's not perfect, I'll give you that, but at least give them credit. Keep in mind Wine just got compatibility with Photoshop CS2.

I have tried to migrate totally to ubuntu but unfortunately there are programs that I need that do not have an open source brother or would take to long to learn (i.e. Mathcad among others) so I have to dual boot. I have tried endless times to use wine to install my apps but I think the only one I got to work was Photoshop... but hey, I like Gimp and use it a lot! Yes, WINE (Wine Is Not an Emulator) has it's flaws but it's a great initiative! Imagine if everyone who wanted to switch to ubuntu could install their needed windows programs! No more windows, and companys (both soft and hardware) would start to devote more time to linux-compatible products... right now this is an utopia but there are people trying to make this happen... and that's also why microsoft doesn't release any information... they know what they're up against and they're in it for the $$$!!!!

We can't have it all and nobody will ever be 100% satisfied with Ubuntu. However, I have noticed an increased interest in linux (myself included) and that makes me very happy! I know less than zero about programing for Ubuntu so can't help anyone there, at least for now, but this is giving me the opportunity to learn something new and being able to be a part of a community such as this is great. I think the same goes for most of you who have recently switched to Ubuntu and are trying to get everyone else to switch as well - that's just awesome!!!

[roderick]

Roderick ...

Looking forward to reading your blog ( fellow Kubuntu user ). Don't overdo the shovelling out there in NL. Done way too much of that here in Quebec lol.

Dale

Thanks.

My promoting is aimed at those dissatisfied with their current OS. If they complain about load times, viruses, spyware, blue screen crashes, etc, I point them to an alternative. I give them a free Live CD and tell them to try it without installing to see what it has.

For those not so adventurous, I suggest free alternative software to run on their existing OS, like Gimp, OpenOffice, etc. Let them get to understand free doesn't mean bad or poorly written, which is a common misconception. A lot of time, this will give them that extra incentive to eventually switch on their own.

I have friends who have converted seeing what I use and realizing that my system does not crash, never has viruses, and is more secure in general. Most of these people are non-technical in nature, and survive quite well (with a few tips from me when apt messes up periodically).

For me, if they figured out a way to make adept-manager report all problems and a solution via a GUI, it would make the experience better overall. If adept-manager has problem updating a package, you are sometimes forced to drop to CLI to resolve. It's not a huge deal for someone like me, but the average user has to dig through the forums and realize they need the "scary" CLI. :)

Just my 2 cents. Anyway, I have some common solutions to this problem posted on my blog ( http://roderick-greening.blogspot.com/2008/02/recover-from-adept-manager-failures_19.html).

I will try and post other things as I see them come up

Cheers,

Rod.

[Redrazor39]

Exactly. I'm just saying things would be easier for users afraid of the "scary" CLI.

I've only had a virus on a laptop once, so not really many problems with that.

I only wish that what I had previously thought were true. I had excessively high expectations for free and open source software. I thought it would be miles ahead and innovative, but it's more like that to a technical person and some things like unification that Apple has is really lacking.

Take OpenOffice.org for example. Great office suite with lots of nice built-in features, but the UI isn't efficient or innovative at all. It's almost a copy of Microsoft Office 2003

OpenOffice.org is a nice office suite for linux, but it's not the best out of all office suites. Microsoft Office 2007 blows it out of the water and even iWork shines in comparison. OpenOffice.org really needs to step it up a notch as far as GUI goes. That's all that needs fixing. Everything else about it is great, but they needs to add an option to have this “classic” , “familiar” and “inefficient” Microsoft Office 2003-esque interface or a brand new one that is as innovative, efficient, and aesthetically pleasing as the ones in iWork, Microsoft Office 2007, or even Google Docs. I seriously consider using Google docs over OpenOffice.org because the interface is much easier to use and it is much easier to find stuff, even though some features are lacking. It has a tabbed ribbon similar to Microsoft Office 2007 and a file menu similar to the office button in Microsoft Office 2007. I really think OpenOffice.org needs to step it up. If only I knew how to code well, I would do it myself and submit it to the Ubuntu and OpenOffice.org communities, but I know zero coding. Absolutely no code whatsoever. I would be happy to create artwork of a design or basic “blueprint” drawings to give an idea to the coder of what I think would be a good idea, but first I need someone or some people who would be willing to work (together) to code this and bouce ideas off of one another, including me (if I can help at all) and we can all work together. If I know what images or whatever to provide, I will try my best to provide them so the developer can incorporate it into the code. Then, after all is done, we can test it to make sure it does not have any major bugs, iron those out, and submit them to the community to find and fix any minor bugs and use for themselves. Then, after we reach version 1.0 with pretty much all of the bugs worked out, we can submit it to the company that created OpenOffice.org to incorporate it into their next release.

[saulgoode]

I really think OpenOffice.org needs to step it up. If only I knew how to code well, I would do it myself and submit it to the Ubuntu and OpenOffice.org communities, but I know zero coding. Absolutely no code whatsoever. I would be happy to create artwork of a design or basic “blueprint” drawings to give an idea to the coder of what I think would be a good idea, but first I need someone or some people who would be willing to work (together) to code this and bouce ideas off of one another, including me (if I can help at all) and we can all work together. If I know what images or whatever to provide, I will try my best to provide them so the developer can incorporate it into the code. Then, after all is done, we can test it to make sure it does not have any major bugs, iron those out, and submit them to the community to find and fix any minor bugs and use for themselves. Then, after we reach version 1.0 with pretty much all of the bugs worked out, we can submit it to the company that created OpenOffice.org to incorporate it into their next release.

Or... http://contributing.openoffice.org/index.html

[Redrazor39]

awesome! but where can I put this suggestion and offer to help if I can find someone to tell me what help they need?

[Ecclesia]

There was a comment about how we might get companies to start compiling their programs for Ubuntu/Linux. I think that the answer is to become organized - as in politically organized. Companies need to get the message that Linux users are a market segment and that we won't settle for simply running programs under WINE (which by the way is a fantastic piece of code, I can't believe how well many things run under it given its reverse engineering!)

I've looked for this online and can't find it... we need a clear list of companies that Linux users are going to support and those that we will not purchase from. Companies that release Linux native programs get added to the list. Companies that will not stonewall Linux support get put on the last of companies to avoid. Then we have a number of people signing a petition/agreement that they are actually going to make their buying decisions based on the list.

When companies start to see that we're organized in this way they'll start to change. Right now we're playing the accommodation game... that's great for end users right now, but at some point we probably need to get a bit more militant.

Anyone know of a list like this we can start publicizing/pushing?

[roderick]

I've looked for this online and can't find it... we need a clear list of companies that Linux users are going to support and those that we will not purchase from. Companies that release Linux native programs get added to the list. Companies that will not stonewall Linux support get put on the last of companies to avoid. Then we have a number of people signing a petition/agreement that they are actually going to make their buying decisions based on the list.

When companies start to see that we're organized in this way they'll start to change. Right now we're playing the accommodation game... that's great for end users right now, but at some point we probably need to get a bit more militant.

Anyone know of a list like this we can start publicizing/pushing?

I agree.

Personally, I support Acer, Intel, HP, and Dell.

Intel and HP have both done some phenomenal work in supporting Linux. The Intel Graphics Driver is developed in the open and in cooperation with the community and has dedicated Intel developers. HP has made printing easy under Linux, and have developed an awesome print manager/installer that just works.

Acer and Dell now support Linux as an OS option in some places around the world.

If we have a web site that could track which vendors, products, models/versions are Linux friendly and promote those to users, then this would start the ball rolling.

For example, Lexmark is a bad printing option for Linux users. They do not support Linux (but once did) and have no plans to do so in the future. There are no working drivers (except for some really old models), and therefore I recommend to everyone who asks, that they buy HP (even if they are not using Linux).

What vendors do not realize is that If 1 in 100 people use linux, and If in these 100 people, the Linux user has 9 friends, then that means they have influence over 10% of the market. Given that most Linux users are technical, they often will be the expert in their circle of friends and will get asked what hardware to buy. So, if we all recommend Linux friendly hardware, we can help influence this portion of the market to support Linux friendly vendors.

At least, thats my simple take.

[Ecclesia]

Roderick,

How would we get the ball rolling on this? New thread here? Start a Wiki? I don't have a lot of experience with this, but I'm thinking that this needs to be extremely visible and something that generates conversation in a large segment - Linux users and otherwise. Diggs, posts to Engadget, etc...

It would seem that we'd also need to have tiers on this list. Some companies actively support linux with proprietary drivers, while others make their platforms more open. I wonder where HP should actually be on this list... see this thread:

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=713405

HP tech support decided they were going to void the warranty when someone called and said they were using Linux. I've had other support problems with HP as well. If they are working on supporting their printers in Linux then I might buy a printer from them, but based on my experience I'd never buy an HP computer.

So this would be a complicated process. Many companies will support Linux in a very limited way. We need to know which companies really bend over backwards and which just throw a bone out every now and then.

[Redrazor39]

That reminds me, does dual booting void the Best Buy Product Replacement Plan warranty?

If so, can't I just destroy the Ubuntu Partitions and fixmbr with the recovery disc they burned?

[aysiu]

That reminds me, does dual booting void the Best Buy Product Replacement Plan warranty?

If so, can't I just destroy the Ubuntu Partitions and fixmbr with the recovery disc they burned?
Even if they don't void the warranty, some know-nothings from the Geek Squad will probably tell you it voids the warranty, so you'd definitely have to restore Windows, unless you want to take the issue to court.

And you don't even have to bother with fixmbr. Windows (and any Windows restore disc) will automatically overwrite Grub on the MBR.

[Redrazor39]

Yah, Geek Squad is NOT good at all. They really don't know anything.

So if I decide to take ubuntu off of this computer because I have some annoying hardware issues, I would delete the Ubuntu partitions via Vista disk management, then would I take the restore discs Geek Squad made for us and then do what?

How would I fix the booting so it boots as it did when sold?

[aysiu]

Yah, Geek Squad is NOT good at all. They really don't know anything.

So if I decide to take ubuntu off of this computer because I have some annoying hardware issues, I would delete the Ubuntu partitions via Vista disk management, then would I take the restore discs Geek Squad made for us and then do what?

How would I fix the booting so it boots as it did when sold?
Frankly, given what happened to Raelyn Campbell at Best Buy (http://www.vnunet.com/vnunet/news/2209716/lost-laptop-lands-best-54m), I wouldn't leave your hard drive with them at all. If it had to go in for repairs, I'd take the hard drive out and give them the rest of the computer to work with.

[abowen]

Exactly. I'm just saying things would be easier for users afraid of the "scary" CLI.

I've only had a virus on a laptop once, so not really many problems with that.

I only wish that what I had previously thought were true. I had excessively high expectations for free and open source software. I thought it would be miles ahead and innovative, but it's more like that to a technical person and some things like unification that Apple has is really lacking.

Take OpenOffice.org for example. Great office suite with lots of nice built-in features, but the UI isn't efficient or innovative at all. It's almost a copy of Microsoft Office 2003



Though this reply is a bit late, I missed the beginning of the conversation (and might very well be talking into dead air), I would like to suggest that what you are arguing for, at least as far a I can see, can be seen in relation to what Richard A. Lanham argues in his work The Economics of Attention. There is a distinct difference in looking at something and looking through it. When we look through things, that would be through a GUI, a movie, anything we do not realize is an artifice and take as the vehicle through which information is transferred, we run a serious risk of loosing the very notion that we are indeed dealing with an artifice. Yes, OO's UI may not be "efficient or innovative," but stop to consider what can be lost when we merely see through something. Systems must be held at a distance, they must be looked "at." Simply because you see the "flaws" in OO means that you are focusing more on what you are putting into the interface, as opposed to what the interface is, in true dialectical fashion, putting into you. OO is amazing simply because we can look at it, not just the UI, but at what we put into it as well. This makes us more conscious of what we create, formulate, and assimilate. If Michel Foucault is correct, and I would argue he is, then we emerge out of discourse--discourse creates us as we create it (I'm speaking here of subject production). Because we are created, an are creating, I (for one) would rather be aware of what it is I am constructing (as it is constructing me). Open Source software, at least in my opinion, is the only option for this very reason. Having the tools to create self in a multiplicity of ways cannot, should not be sacrificed for the ease of use.

[Ecclesia]

That's an interesting philosophy...

I think, however, that UI in Linux often looks like a clone of something else in order to economize the process of creating something that accomplishes a certain task. The people who create OO don't seem to be interested in innovating the office suite as much as creating something that accomplishes the same tasks and integrates into a market dominated by M$ products - this it does fairly well, and I now prefer using OO to MS Office.

There are many people who shy away from innovation, particularly if it might mean a little bit of work to become familiar with. I haven't used the new M$ Office, but I've heard people complain about how everything is different. Changing the UI might make it look better, but suddenly it's not as efficient because everything is in a different place, or done differently. Same thing would happen to OO if it had a different UI.

Personally, I'd like to see a new Linux based office software that's based on simply writing and then easily changing the formating to suit your tastes (like a more intuitive version of LaTex, with a writeroom/rubyroom UI at the onset). That would work great for me (and if I were a programmer I might start to make that happen) but can you imagine how others might respond? I'm sure it would generate flames such as "you call this a word processor?"

There's just so many people who don't get it, and see "innovation" as slick looking panels and graphics (in which case, seriously - like Compiz isn't impressive enough?)

If someone really loves the new M$ Office, it seems to me that they should either stick with windows, or better yet, tell Microsoft that they'd really appreciate a version that ran on *nix platforms. I might actually start buying their products again if they started doing that. But until they start playing nicely with others I have no reason to give them my money.

[roderick]

I can't believe how many people see innovation only as a visible item.

There are many features created in the OS we use and love, that most do not even see or realize because they are hidden behind a GUI.

The Linux kernel is a great example of innovation, and it continues to evolve. Look at the fact that Linux has only one real required system reboot - when installing a new kernel. Even then, you can continue to run the existing until such time as you choose to reload. There's also a userland program called kexec that negates this required reboot (probably not in major use yet). Compare that to MS and their required reboots.

So, please, when talking innovation and Linux, be aware of the total package, not just the GUI you use or the look of your favourite app. I'm sure OO has plenty of innovation in the back-end that users do not realize. It's hard to promote and document these things adequately when working for free (as the majority of developers do).

It would be interesting to see a project (or set of projects) that works on promoting the "innovative" aspects of Linux and Open Source projects by documenting, writing articles, etc. Get the word out as it were, so that people can see past the hand in front of their face.

[Ecclesia]

Roderick,

I was thinking many of these same things, but felt that my post was getting too long.

Ditto to just about everything you just said.

[uberlube]

what were at war?...why didn't anyone tell me? :lolflag:

[abowen]

I can't believe how many people see innovation only as a visible item.

This is certainly a problem. It takes time to acclimate people to new things, and, because we are visual creatures,most people don't care about what runs under the hood. Being able to work under the hood is a powerful form of knowledge with a high exchange value, working under the hood of OO or any other program, etc. certainly adds to ones cultural capital (at least in this system). However, we all start out new. Thank you for bringing up this point as it affords us the opportunity to discuss what "innovation" can be. Excellent job.

[Redrazor39]

Yes, you are completely right. I was looking at Linux too much for the end-user, but that's what I really wanted. I was hoping this would be a free alternative to macs. I see people all the time trying to make this an alternative to Windows, and that's completely wrong. They should innovate in ways under the hood, which is very important to developers, but also on the face because that's what casual users see.

Some people need/want something free and free of restrictions like linux but are casual users that want a lot of visual candy and ease of use via GUI that looks nice and attractive. It would be great if there were basically two modes, one is the pretty, inefficient GUI and the other is "classic" version that has the less pretty but more efficient methods in place.

[julian67]

Yes, you are completely right. I was looking at Linux too much for the end-user, but that's what I really wanted. I was hoping this would be a free alternative to macs. I see people all the time trying to make this an alternative to Windows, and that's completely wrong. They should innovate in ways under the hood, which is very important to developers, but also on the face because that's what casual users see.

Some people need/want something free and free of restrictions like linux but are casual users that want a lot of visual candy and ease of use via GUI that looks nice and attractive. It would be great if there were basically two modes, one is the pretty, inefficient GUI and the other is "classic" version that has the less pretty but more efficient methods in place.

This already exists and is nothing new. Use different desktop environments, they can be installed on the same computer and user chooses environment at log in or when starting X from shell. There is more to the free desktop than Gnome & KDE. You can also choose from Xfce, openbox, fluxbox, ratpoison and so on.

[akiratheoni]

Some people need/want something free and free of restrictions like linux but are casual users that want a lot of visual candy and ease of use via GUI that looks nice and attractive. It would be great if there were basically two modes, one is the pretty, inefficient GUI and the other is "classic" version that has the less pretty but more efficient methods in place.

Uh yeah, let's see:
GNOME
KDE
Xfce
Compiz-Fusion
Blackbox
Openbox
Fluxbox
Enlightenment
PekWM
AwesomeWM
Metacity
KWin
Ratpoison
Sawfish

Take your pick. They're all free. Let's compare to the choices that Windows XP gives you:
Luna
Classic

Uh... yeah. Compare the choices.
I appreciate your enthusiasm for trying to make Ubuntu better but before you make a statement like that please do more research.

[Redrazor39]

Actually, I'm learning more from this thread than any other lol

[Alien.col]

For me hardware support is the key, that is the main problem I see with Linux. If you fix that I think that Windows or OS have no chance, just because things are free. Another thing that has to progress is gaming, because that's the only type of software where Windows is miles ahead.

[billgoldberg]

I only read the 1st page (like i'm reading 8 pages).

So i'll just post some things that come to mind from that page:

- I think the grub is fine. If you can't figure out how to use grub to login to you pc then you shouldn't be using a pc.

- If people don't want to use linux/ubuntu because they can't use their windows programs, explain them that there are native linux programs that do the same. If they still can't do without utorrent, IE, itunes, ..; then they should stay with windows.

- I don't like wine. I actually find it a stupid project. If you really can't do without windows software, dual boot or run windows in a virtual box.

<rant>

I'm getting fed up with posts like this. Ubuntu should look/be more like windows so newcomers would feel at home and could still use the same programs.

Ubuntu should be (and is) like ubuntu. It runs linux programs.

If you can't deal with it, don't use it.

What are the so called programs people need but aren't there for linux? The only programs I can think up are specially written programs for a unique need, and most of those are only used at work.

All the programs normal and power users use have a ubuntu/linux counterpart.

There are dozens of video player, music players, image manipulation software, office programs, browsers, file managers, photo managing software, torrent clients, IM clients, bulk renamers, scanning software, dictionaries, virtualisation software, dvd rippers, dvd/cd burners, video manipulation software, download managers, p2p software, phone software, email clients, ...

People saying they "need" some piece of software that won't run on linux usually aren't aware that they could use other programs or are to lazy to learn to use the program.

</rant>

[Redrazor39]

no no no. I'm not in the slightest saying make ubuntu more like Windows. That's about ten steps backwards. What I am saying is to make it simple and easy to use in innovative ways, and most of all make it look nice. It's a proven fact that humans are both social creatures and that aesthetics (good looks) is a high priority for a lot of things.

Also, I plan to learn how to code over the summer so I can help accomplish another goal: make Linux/Ubuntu software (windows and mac counterparts) very easy to use, nearly bugless, and better than the commercial software on Windows and Mac. Use new solutions. New ways. New answers. And New UIs.

All in all, just some things to make Ubuntu better. I'm suggesting this, seeing what people think, and I plan to implement this when i get the time to learn how to develop myself.

Thank you for your posts.

[mdsmedia]

I only read the 1st page (like i'm reading 8 pages).

So i'll just post some things that come to mind from that page:

- I think the grub is fine. If you can't figure out how to use grub to login to you pc then you shouldn't be using a pc.

- If people don't want to use linux/ubuntu because they can't use their windows programs, explain them that there are native linux programs that do the same. If they still can't do without utorrent, IE, itunes, ..; then they should stay with windows.

- I don't like wine. I actually find it a stupid project. If you really can't do without windows software, dual boot or run windows in a virtual box.

<rant>

I'm getting fed up with posts like this. Ubuntu should look/be more like windows so newcomers would feel at home and could still use the same programs.

Ubuntu should be (and is) like ubuntu. It runs linux programs.

If you can't deal with it, don't use it.

What are the so called programs people need but aren't there for linux? The only programs I can think up are specially written programs for a unique need, and most of those are only used at work.

All the programs normal and power users use have a ubuntu/linux counterpart.

There are dozens of video player, music players, image manipulation software, office programs, browsers, file managers, photo managing software, torrent clients, IM clients, bulk renamers, scanning software, dictionaries, virtualisation software, dvd rippers, dvd/cd burners, video manipulation software, download managers, p2p software, phone software, email clients, ...

People saying they "need" some piece of software that won't run on linux usually aren't aware that they could use other programs or are to lazy to learn to use the program.

</rant>To a large degree I agree with what you say. The most frustrating thing with "comparing" Linux to Windows is that Windows users want SPECIFIC programs which have been developed to RUN ON WINDOWS.

Programs like AutoCad and Photoshop are brought up time and time again and used as reasons that Linux isn't ready for the desktop. OF COURSE those programs won't run on Linux!! They're WRITTEN for Windows. If they were written or ported for Linux that problem goes out the window.

Alternatives for MOST Windows programs exist. Saying Photoshop won't run on Linux is both a fallacy and irrelevant. Autocad is SO critical to the vast majority of users it's astonishing.

Photoshop WILL run through WINE but if you base your needs on Photoshop, try GIMP, Inkscape, etc...which, together, probably meet your needs.....I don't know....I can't afford Photoshop, as is the case for MOST Windows users who base their needs on it, and I don't NEED Photoshop.

As for AutoCad...if you need it...USE WINDOWS!!! The percentage userbase will hardly be dented!!

OpenOffice.org....I'll call it OOo....does most things that Office does. It doesn't look "as nice" or "as pretty" but Office doesn't save files as ODF either. Office won't open my ODT files. Office will not interoperate with OOo. But ALL the things that OOo won't do that Office does are always hilighted. OOo will open and save Office file formats. Office WON'T open or save OOo formats. OOo will export directly to PDF. I have to open an Office document in OOo to do the same.

Office has some nice features which are readily available in other OSS products. Directly comparing Office with OOo is a fallacy used by NBMers as is Photoshop. There ARE tools which will do the job, just not that specific tool.

[Redrazor39]

It's just that the quality of these Linux alternatives should be much higher. It should be prettier (that benefits everyone because then it makes it easier and more fun to work with those programs) and they should have more features besides things like being able to open an openoffice specific format. Think of iWork. Think of GarageBand and iMovie and iDVD and other Apple products. They seem to have the ball rolling with quality of products. We should work to do the same, but better and most importantly, in the Linux way!

[aysiu]

they should have more features besides things like being able to open an openoffice specific format. OpenOffice can work with more formats than MS Office can. It opens .doc, .xls, and .ppt in addition to the open formats. MS Office can't do open formats--only its own proprietary formats and .rtf.

[mdsmedia]

It's just that the quality of these Linux alternatives should be much higher. It should be prettier (that benefits everyone because then it makes it easier and more fun to work with those programs) and they should have more features besides things like being able to open an openoffice specific format. Think of iWork. Think of GarageBand and iMovie and iDVD and other Apple products. They seem to have the ball rolling with quality of products. We should work to do the same, but better and most importantly, in the Linux way!

As aysiu says, above, they do MORE than just open openoffice specific format. That's where they are GREATER than Office. They open Office file formats.

I don't know anything about OSX programs, but how many of them will open Windows file formats? How many of them work with anything other than their own file formats?

I don't think of OSX formats because I never used a Mac. Do you want a program that is unique in its abilities? Or do you want an OS which will cater as much as possible to what PEOPLE WANT? What do GarageBand, iMovie and iDVD do that other programs don't? I don't know, I'm just asking.

Have a look at Compiz/Fusion..... I haven't used it but from what I can tell it works better than the alternatives.

If you want to bring up SPECIFIC programs that you like in OSX or Windows, look at what Linux has that is specific, rather than saying that X program is better than its Linux counterpart. On the other hand, think about what Linux has, or OSS has, that compares with its alternative in Windows or OSX. Don't just say "OpenOffice.org is no match for Office". What about Latex or other OSS alternatives which, in addition to OOo, may be more than a match for Office.

You throw in programs like GarageBand, iMovie or iDVD. What do they do that is not available in Linux? Do they simply look better? Do they licence a format that's not available in Linux? I don't know...enlighten me.

For me, Linux provides much more than Windows does. I don't use or need things like GarageBand or iMovie or iDVD. So far, similar products for Windows have required purchase, and I've found similar products for free in the repositories. Once again, it's not about the money, but the freedom. I purchased a PIM program a couple of years ago because I wanted something to match Outlook. Now I use Kontact.....I couldn't find anything similar for Windows. I had a Windows based Astronomy program, for which i couldn't find a free alternative on Windows. Kstars does at least as good a job.

They're not perfect, but the alternative is less attractive.

[Ecclesia]

I used to teach computer music at a day camp. We used garage band because there wasn't anything else that was user friendly enough for the kids we worked with. It's true that there are programs that can be used to create music in Linux, and some have some very nice features, but it's true that they can't compare in how user friendly they are. I really wanted to use an open source solution and spent a lot of time trying to find one, but I couldn't find anything. This isn't just about whether it looks pretty or where buttons happen to be located, it's about how easily you get things done.

Same deal with imovie and Cinelerra. There are some great things about Cinelerra, but trying to get it configured and working well is not easy. I like kdenlive and would love to use that, except that it has some problem with rendering NTSC so I have a video that I've edited that only renders garbage :(

As far as I'm concerned, this is the one area where Apple really shines. They have figured out some of the things that end users would like to do with their machines and then they have made it easy and intuitive to do. Unfortunately in the process they lock everything down and use formats that aren't readily usable by others. They also tend to hide when they are using standard formats (this is true of the loops that come with garageband for instance).

I feel like there is progress right now in open source and some of this media content generation - it just hasn't happened yet. If I had the time, I would learn to code so that I could contribute in some way. Unfortunately, my full time job is more than full time and I'm not sure that I have the intense patience for coding anyway.

[Redrazor39]

Seriously, we need to make Ubuntu look better, especially as the default look. I am by no means saying lock it down or make it like commercial software as some people perceive, I'm saying we need to make it look and function just as well as commercial software with the Linux freedom (and free of charge ;) ).

People complain about the pro graphic artists being paid and working forever to get this right. It doesn't take THAT much effort, especially since we have a whole community to work with. Some people have mad GIMP skills but can't code for beans, and vice versa.

[YogiPaolo]

Ok, I'll enter the fray.

I'm a computer user. That means that I use computers for music, video, internet, learning, writing, publishing, entertainment and just plain fun. I also work with computers for a living. Specifically, I'm a Desktop Support Specialist (the title makes me laugh, but that's what they gave me) for a private school.

At home, I dual boot (rarely) windows XP pro and Ubuntu (99%). To me, these operating systems are tools to do a job. I respect the fact that there are "philosophies" behind them, but that does not change how I use these tools. When selecting a tool, my main question is "does it do the job".

In my work environment, I administer 500-600 users. I do that with active directory. The GUI is fast , efficient and relatively painless. It is simply not feasable given my workload to manage access and permissions with the command line. I know quite a few "old school" admins in their 50's who used UNIX from since its arrival in the enterprise. They waited for a GUI for half their careers and would not go back to CLI if you paid them.

For some things, a well-designed GUI is the best way to go, for others, a CLI works best.

Starting and stopping services in windows, I go to the cmd prompt. For changing access rights for groups of users, i go right to AD.

As for the users I support, many don't even know what an OS really is and if they do, they don't really care. They have jobs to do and I respect that. They need a reasonably reliable tool that will allow them to grade papers, monitor students, produce course materials and communicate with everyone. Regretfully, windows is the de-facto standard. I accept that.

In my personal life, Ubuntu/Linux rules the roost. At work, I accept the realities that present themselves.

We do use Linux for a listserv and network monitoring, but that's about it.

Given the state of the windows vista fiasco, we may be changing desktop environments very soon.....

I hope somebody reads my rambling, sometimes lambent, sometimes lucent post. I welcome the dialog!

Paolo

[Redrazor39]

Thank you for understanding, YogiPaolo. A CLI is best for some things, but a well-designed (and good-looking doesn't hurt ;) ) GUI is better and easier for a lot of other things, too. Computers are tools. Wouldn't you rather have a tool that has options of how YOU want to use it, but those options are all good? If we choose between a CLI and a crap GUI, well, some people want a GUI, and a good one at that. Some people are scared/don't understand/just don't like the CLI. To some people it feels like they're living 10 or 20 years ago. We should make the GUI awesome, but still allow a good CLI for those who really like CLIs.

Also, right now I'm working on fixing OpenOffice.org's UI. I don't see this as a full replacement, but when you get OOo, you get the "classic" interface, but there should be an option under Tools>Options or View>UI to choose other UIs, including the one I'm designing. I'm trying to go for something unique while being very efficient and easy to use, but still pretty.

[Redrazor39]

Roderick,

How would we get the ball rolling on this? New thread here? Start a Wiki? I don't have a lot of experience with this, but I'm thinking that this needs to be extremely visible and something that generates conversation in a large segment - Linux users and otherwise. Diggs, posts to Engadget, etc...

It would seem that we'd also need to have tiers on this list. Some companies actively support linux with proprietary drivers, while others make their platforms more open. I wonder where HP should actually be on this list... see this thread:

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=713405

HP tech support decided they were going to void the warranty when someone called and said they were using Linux. I've had other support problems with HP as well. If they are working on supporting their printers in Linux then I might buy a printer from them, but based on my experience I'd never buy an HP computer.

So this would be a complicated process. Many companies will support Linux in a very limited way. We need to know which companies really bend over backwards and which just throw a bone out every now and then.

As for start a wiki, go to www.wetpaint.com and start one. It's really easy and only 3 steps, and works well.

I have a wiki about making Ubuntu more user-friendly, easier, etc. at www.thenewbuntu.wetpaint.com, but it's not nearly done. I just started and I used a lot from this thread. Anyone can edit it.

[cardinals_fan]

1. GUI is your friend. I’m not at all saying the terminal is bad. It’s a great way to get things done quickly and easily, but we need to make sure almost everything that can be done in the terminal can be done via GUI. Newbies and people not big on computers love to be able to just point and click their way through a computer without worry about all the stuff behind the scenes. Text-based things scare them. Even Bill Gates, after developing later versions of Windows, once said “MS-DOS is ugly and not user friendly.” The terminal is not nearly as bad, but still. It reminds people of the troubles they had with MS-DOS or forces them to remember text-based commands. Not fun. GRUB also needs to become GUI-based. Arrow keys are good, but some people get scared if there’s no pointer on the screen. We need to have this: Show an Ubuntu logo in color for loading Ubuntu, then below that, in black and white, have Ubuntu Recovery mode. Then, even lower, in a font like this, have the Ubuntu memtest option. On the other side, we should have pre-set logos for different OS’s. When it recognizes an OS such as Windows Vista, show the Windows Vista logo and the recovery option in a black-and-white Vista logo. In XP, show the XP logo and a black-and-white one for recovery. For Mac OS X, show the “X” logo and then a black-and-white one with only 80% opacity for recovery (if there is a recovery mode on Mac OS X partitions, I’m not really sure because I do not own a Macintosh Computer). Also, have the GRUB configuration program in a GUI and Drop-Down-Menu based system. If GRUB recognizes your other OS wrong, then just go into GRUB configuration and choose the real OS from the drop-down-menu. Think Vista power options configuration- that style.
Personal computers are one of the most remarkable innovations in human history. Maybe it's worth taking a little time to learn how to use them properly, rather than regarding them as something alien and mystifying. The reason most people have so many issues with their software is because they do not take a week to gain some basic understanding of what goes on 'under the hood'.