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Wybiral
February 16th, 2008, 04:43 AM
not to sound like a smart***, but i think you answered your own question, assuming you've actually read the GPL...

btw, i just noticed the board doesn't censor smarta**, i censored it myself...

Did you know it's against forum policy to censor your own words! I got an infraction[1] for it once, I said "s**t",

Oh s**t, I said it again!

EDIT:

1. Ah, it wasn't an infraction, more of a warning followed by a series of inappropriate private messages by a (disgruntled) moderator. I'm still emotionally scarred a little (my innocent mind doesn't like being accused of such filth).

LaRoza
February 16th, 2008, 05:02 AM
Did you know it's against forum policy to censor your own words! I got an infraction for it once, I said "s**t",

Oh s**t, I said it again!

It is against the Ubuntu Forums Code of Conduct to circumvent the language filter.



3. Profanity: Remember that the forums are used by people of all age groups and of all tolerance levels regarding profanity usage. When in the support areas of the forum, please try to keep your language polite and courteous and refrain from the usage of profanities. In the Cafe and Backyard areas, mild profanity/swearing is allowed in the context of general speech. Explicit profanity/swearing is not allowed, and under no circumstances will we allow any profanity to be directed toward another person. Please see the Ubuntu Code of Conduct's requirements to "Be Considerate" and to "Be Respectful" and the descriptions given there for more exact specifications. A language filter is in place to catch any profanities that you may have accidentally used. Do not attempt to circumvent the language filter by using variations or slight misspellings of profanities.

Wybiral
February 16th, 2008, 08:05 AM
It is against the Ubuntu Forums Code of Conduct to circumvent the language filter.

Then we should probably start handing out infractions every time someone refers to Brain**** as BrainF*ck :p

LaRoza
February 16th, 2008, 08:31 AM
Then we should probably start handing out infractions every time someone refers to Brain**** as BrainF*ck :p

I already asked about that in fact. :-)

It is a real language, so it is allowed in talking about it.

(I usually don't hand out infractions for such words when they are not directed toward someone else. I just edit them to avoid reports)

Wybiral
February 16th, 2008, 09:12 AM
I already asked about that in fact. :-)

It is a real language, so it is allowed in talking about it.

(I usually don't hand out infractions for such words when they are not directed toward someone else. I just edit them to avoid reports)

Yes, you're allowed to talk about it, but you're not allowed to circumvent the language filter by spelling it with an asterisk (be VERY careful not to misspell your curse words so the mods don't think you're being sneaky). I'm not sure what's wrong with censoring yourself (what if we don't want to type the real word just so they can filter it for us), but we live by the rules around here L*Roza, so we must type Brain**** because it's the right thing to do.

LaRoza
February 16th, 2008, 09:24 AM
Yes, you're allowed to talk about it, but you're not allowed to circumvent the language filter by spelling it with an asterisk (be VERY careful not to misspell your curse words so the mods don't think you're being sneaky). I'm not sure what's wrong with censoring yourself (what if we don't want to type the real word just so they can filter it for us), but we live by the rules around here L*Roza, so we must type Brain**** because it's the right thing to do.

I am not sure what you mean.

There is a list of words that are used to determine what is blocked, and I have never seen that list. (I wouldn't be able to anyway, it is just full of ****)

The UF Code of Conduct states the policy, and that words can be starred out if they are posted. Trying to post versions of words with symbols or misspellings is against the policy for the same reason, and is often frowned upon because it shows an intentional effort to get past the automatic censor.

It is alright to mispell BF if you don't want to type it out. It is not bypassing the filter and is allowed because it is an actual language.

Wybiral
February 16th, 2008, 09:31 AM
I am not sure what you mean.

There is a list of words that are used to determine what is blocked, and I have never seen that list. (I wouldn't be able to anyway, it is just full of ****)

The UF Code of Conduct states the policy, and that words can be starred out if they are posted. Trying to post versions of words with symbols or misspellings is against the policy for the same reason, and is often frowned upon because it shows an intentional effort to get past the automatic censor.

It is alright to mispell BF if you don't want to type it out. It is not bypassing the filter and is allowed because it is an actual language.

How are we supposed to know it's an accepted word? What do we do when we don't feel like actually typing a word that we know to be filtered (our cat watches sometimes and she has a fragile mind, I usually don't like to type those words out). Are you saying that words can be starred, like "s**t"? Is that OK (as in, I won't receive disrespectful private messages for typing them)?

LaRoza
February 16th, 2008, 09:40 AM
How are we supposed to know it's an accepted word? What do we do when we don't feel like actually typing a word that we know to be filtered (our cat watches sometimes and she has a fragile mind, I usually don't like to type those words out). Are you saying that words can be starred, like "s**t"? Is that OK (as in, I won't receive disrespectful private messages for typing them)?

Use your best judgement, and if you see a word starred out, edit your post. Sometimes some words slip out, not from me of course, but I see others do it.

Well, that is an intentional effort to prevent it from being filtered, and isn't really good to do. I could see it causing trouble.

I don't know why anyone would send a disrespectful PM because of it. Most people just report it instead of trying to deal with it themselves. (It is also stated in the UF Code of Conduct that users shouldn't try to moderate, just report)

If someone sends a disrepectful PM to you, you can forward it to an admin to deal with.

K.Mandla
February 16th, 2008, 11:51 PM
This issue has been split away from a support thread.

In the future please do not use help requests as seeds for unrelated discussions. That is called thread hijacking and is not appreciated.

Wybiral
February 17th, 2008, 07:09 AM
This issue has been split away from a support thread.

In the future please do not use help requests as seeds for unrelated discussions. That is called thread hijacking and is not appreciated.

You apparently don't visit the Programming Talk forum very often :)

Wybiral
February 17th, 2008, 07:20 AM
I don't know why anyone would send a disrespectful PM because of it. Most people just report it instead of trying to deal with it themselves. (It is also stated in the UF Code of Conduct that users shouldn't try to moderate, just report)

What do you do when it is a moderator? ;)

LaRoza
February 17th, 2008, 08:00 AM
What do you do when it is a moderator? ;)

I didn't realize you were talking about an actual incident, I didn't see the edit. I will not discuss this further.

p_quarles
February 17th, 2008, 08:26 AM
You apparently don't visit the Programming Talk forum very often :)
The Code of Conduct applies to each and every page on this forum. Read it, abide by the rules, and you're good. ;)

LaRoza
February 17th, 2008, 08:28 AM
You apparently don't visit the Programming Talk forum very often :)

It turned into a discussion that belonged in the Forum Feedback and Help, and wasn't a typically off topic meandering of ours.

Wybiral
February 18th, 2008, 01:53 AM
It turned into a discussion that belonged in the Forum Feedback and Help, and wasn't a typically off topic meandering of ours.

I always though off-topic was off-topic, I didn't know there was a typical "meandering" :)

It's fine, I was just asking since I was there, and it was meant to be lighthearted and humorous anyway. I tried to use smilies like I was instructed :)

Wybiral
February 18th, 2008, 01:56 AM
The Code of Conduct applies to each and every page on this forum. Read it, abide by the rules, and you're good. ;)

So I should never go off-topic... Ever?

Btw, stop hijacking my thread, the topic here isn't "off-topicness", it's language filter etiquette ;)

frodon
February 18th, 2008, 10:58 AM
The principle of language filtering is rather common, we can't filter all the existing bad words as well as we can't prevent you to find a way to make any filtered word to be understood by using "*" characters in a way that the language filter can't handle.

The principle is just to make sure that users here are posting in a polite and respectful way. If you choose to write your post using bad words you take the risk to brake the ubuntuforums CoC and language filtering as nothing to do with this IMHO.

The language filter is just one of the a technical answers to this item, we're just asking you in a general way to voice your opinion in a polite and respectful way.

Please do not expect forum staff to never do mistakes as like others we do mistakes, if you feel you have been warned for using bad language and it is a mistake then post a polite request in the resolution center. If you browse the resolution center you will see that in many cases polite request are satisfied.

Our intend is not to prevent you having a pleasant forum experience.

LaRoza
February 18th, 2008, 11:29 AM
I always though off-topic was off-topic, I didn't know there was a typical "meandering" :)

It's fine, I was just asking since I was there, and it was meant to be lighthearted and humorous anyway. I tried to use smilies like I was instructed :)

It was not the typical conversation, it was an issue that I was not prepared to discuss.

I was tricked into taking part in a discussion on the behavior of another moderator that you disagreed with.

When you disagree with a staff's actions, post in the Resolution Center, don't try to draw a moderator that doesn't know of the situation into a discussion about it.

Wybiral
February 18th, 2008, 01:41 PM
The principle of language filtering is rather common, we can't filter all the existing bad words as well as we can't prevent you to find a way to make any filtered word to be understood by using "*" characters in a way that the language filter can't handle.

The principle is just to make sure that users here are posting in a polite and respectful way. If you choose to write your post using bad words you take the risk to brake the ubuntuforums CoC and language filtering as nothing to do with this IMHO.

The language filter is just one of the a technical answers to this item, we're just asking you in a general way to voice your opinion in a polite and respectful way.

Please do not expect forum staff to never do mistakes as like others we do mistakes, if you feel you have been warned for using bad language and it is a mistake then post a polite request in the resolution center. If you browse the resolution center you will see that in many cases polite request are satisfied.

Our intend is not to prevent you having a pleasant forum experience.

Thank you for being so reasonable. I understand why the rule exists , it's just that there are dozens of cases where this rule is ignored (such as BrainF*ck). I know that Brain**** ISN'T filtered, but if it were, is "BrainF*ck" breaking the rules? Something like "s**t", IMO doesn't appear like I'm trying to "circumvent" the language filter, I just didn't want to type the actual word.

I know it's our responsibility as casual forum members to memorize every line of the CoC, but I would personally feel more comfortable around here if the moderators were more lenient about things like this (because my memory isn't that great and I sometimes forget all of the little rules). Perhaps a PM saying "Hey, you probably didn't know, but we appreciate it if you let our language filter censor the words." would be a more friendlier approach. And some of you moderators are great, I've even been PM'd politely just like I said about things like this (one moderator even let me edit my own post, which I took as a rather kind gesture).

This particular moderator has had a problem with me for a while (even assaulting me outside the realm of the Ubuntu communities). So I have difficulty not taking it personal. This thread has been handled nicely, I appreciate it when you are able to talk about what I'm potentially doing wrong in a polite way. This thread, however, started because I jokingly informed a fellow forum-member about circumventing the language filter (I didn't just pull it out of nowhere) and I wasn't trying to bring back an old issue. A moderator continued with my off-topic-ness, so I assumed it was OK (as it usually is in the PT forum, especially when the OP is answered).

But since you're here, this is how our PMs started:



Do not attempt to circumvent the language filter by using variations or slight misspellings of profanities.Sorry, I didn't know if there was a language filter or not. I was censoring it myself (I wasn't trying to let it slip by or anything).Maybe if you don't think you should be saying something, you shouldn't be saying it.
I would appreciate it if moderators didn't try to assert their own etiquette for me (notice how I was trying to apologize and explain what happened).

Wybiral
February 18th, 2008, 01:47 PM
It was not the typical conversation, it was an issue that I was not prepared to discuss.

But you did...


I was tricked into taking part in a discussion on the behavior of another moderator that you disagreed with.

You were tricked???


When you disagree with a staff's actions, post in the Resolution Center, don't try to draw a moderator that doesn't know of the situation into a discussion about it.

I wasn't, I just posted a friendly (albeit off-topic) warning to a fellow forum member about circumventing the language filter. You responded, which seemed (to me) like it was fair game. If you had said "don't talk about this here" I would have backed off.

You're one of the good moderators LaRoza, I wasn't trying trick you or anything (and I'm not blaming you), it just didn't seem too off-topic in comparison to most of the crap on PT. As a moderator, you need to let me know (hopefully in a friendly fashion) when something is inappropriate.

LaRoza
February 18th, 2008, 01:59 PM
But you did...

You were tricked???

I wasn't, I just posted a friendly (albeit off-topic) warning to a fellow forum member about circumventing the language filter. You responded, which seemed (to me) like it was fair game. If you had said "don't talk about this here" I would have backed off.

You're one of the good moderators LaRoza, I wasn't trying trick you or anything (and I'm not blaming you), it just didn't seem too off-topic in comparison to most of the crap on PT. As a moderator, you need to let me know (hopefully in a friendly fashion) when something is inappropriate.

I thought it was a hypothetical situation or just clarifying the rules, not based on another incident. Had it just been an OT discussion on the forum policy, I would have had no problem with it.

I guess I was taken off guard by the fact it was based on something that happened.

frodon
February 18th, 2008, 02:08 PM
I know it's our responsibility as casual forum members to memorize every line of the CoC, but I would personally feel more comfortable around here if the moderators were more lenient about things like this (because my memory isn't that great and I sometimes forget all of the little rules). Perhaps a PM saying "Hey, you probably didn't know, but we appreciate it if you let our language filter censor the words." would be a more friendlier approach. And some of you moderators are great, I've even been PM'd politely just like I said about things like this (one moderator even let me edit my own post, which I took as a rather kind gesture).

This particular moderator has had a problem with me for a while (even assaulting me outside the realm of the Ubuntu communities). So I have difficulty not taking it personal. This thread has been handled nicely, I appreciate it when you are able to talk about what I'm potentially doing wrong in a polite way. This thread, however, started because I jokingly informed a fellow forum-member about circumventing the language filter (I didn't just pull it out of nowhere) and I wasn't trying to bring back an old issue. A moderator continued with my off-topic-ness, so I assumed it was OK (as it usually is in the PT forum, especially when the OP is answered).

It is sometimes hard using text based communication to get the implicit meaning of some sentences and we are sometimes like others tired or nervous so we may not understand the right way some sentences and it is where you can help us posting a polite request in the resolution center.

You shouldn't feel the warning issued as something not friendly, it is for us the standard tool used to warn users about a unexpected behaviour/content without issuing infraction. So it is used when the rule braking is either not intentional or minor, it is just a formal way to PM the user which have the advantage to send in the automatic PM the link to the problematic post and only requires only click for us (which save times too). So this should really not be felt as a punishment as it is really not the purpose of the warning feature, i'm sure other mods would confirm this.
I think there was a bit of misunderstanding on this point.

In a general way if you have the feeling that you are stalked or unjustly warned/infracted, the best way to deal with this feeling is to post a polite request in the resolution center so that admins can clear things and it gives us a chance to understand your feeling and maybe adjust our behaviour regarding your posting style.

As i said our intend is not to alter your forum experience so if you feel this it is more likely misunderstanding and the best is to clear this in resolution center. I know it can seem a bit bureaucratic but it often gives the chance to clear all the misunderstanding and turn the page for good.

LaRoza
February 18th, 2008, 02:12 PM
You shouldn't feel the warning issued as something not friendly, it is for us the standard tool used to warn users about a unexpected behaviour/content without issuing infraction. So it is used when the rule braking is either not intentional or minor, it is just a formal way to PM the user which have the advantage to send in the automatic PM the link to the problematic post and only requires only click for us (which save times too). So this should really not be felt as a punishment as it is really not the purpose of the warning feature, i'm sure other mods would confirm this.


Confirmed.

Wybiral
February 18th, 2008, 02:14 PM
I thought it was a hypothetical situation or just clarifying the rules, not based on another incident. Had it just been an OT discussion on the forum policy, I would have had no problem with it.

I guess I was taken off guard by the fact it was based on something that happened.

What we talked about was just hypothetical "where are my bounds" OT conversing. I wasn't asking you to discuss the actions of another moderator. I didn't mean to catch you off guard (and I definitely was not trying to trick you). I only mentioned that incident so the other poster would know that some of the moderators apparently take custom filtration very seriously.

LaRoza
February 18th, 2008, 02:23 PM
What we talked about was just hypothetical "where are my bounds" OT conversing. I wasn't asking you to discuss the actions of another moderator. I didn't mean to catch you off guard (and I definitely was not trying to trick you). I only mentioned that incident so the other poster would know that some of the moderators apparently take custom filtration very seriously.

Oh, Ok.

The thing about the self censorship is that it hides nothing, in fact, it actually makes it worse. Our sick human minds fill in the blanks:

Censorship (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltGmjMBrLjs)

Wybiral
February 18th, 2008, 02:26 PM
It is sometimes hard using text based communication to get the implicit meaning of some sentences and we are sometimes like others tired or nervous so we may not understand the right way some sentences and it is where you can help us posting a polite request in the resolution center.

You shouldn't feel the warning issued as something not friendly, it is for us the standard tool used to warn users about a unexpected behaviour/content without issuing infraction. So it is used when the rule braking is either not intentional or minor, it is just a formal way to PM the user which have the advantage to send in the automatic PM the link to the problematic post and only requires only click for us (which save times too). So this should really not be felt as a punishment as it is really not the purpose of the warning feature, i'm sure other mods would confirm this.
I think there was a bit of misunderstanding on this point.

In a general way if you have the feeling that you are stalked or unjustly warned/infracted, the best way to deal with this feeling is to post a polite request in the resolution center so that admins can clear things and it gives us a chance to understand your feeling and maybe adjust our behaviour regarding your posting style.

As i said our intend is not to alter your forum experience so if you feel this it is more likely misunderstanding and the best is to clear this in resolution center. I know it can seem a bit bureaucratic but it often gives the chance to clear all the misunderstanding and turn the page for good.

Oh, no. I understand that it was a warning. I get that and I was happy with that. But when I apologize and explain myself, I don't expect the moderator to lecture me on personal etiquette. I was extending a gesture of kindness and saying "ok, I didn't know, sorry about that" to explain myself (because I didn't want him/her to think I was trying to get away with circumventing the language filter). If it had been dropped at that, I wouldn't have felt wronged.

Yes, I agree that the resolution center for something like this seems bureaucratic at best, and he/she said the forwarded it to the admins... Considering nothing was done/responded to about it, I assumed nobody was going to look into it any further.

PriceChild
February 18th, 2008, 04:16 PM
Two things I want to talk about, the language filter (why it was implemented and the rule) and the infraction system.

1. The difference between why we will treat users typing "Brainf*ck" and "sh*t" differently is not the words being used, rather the intentions of the one using them.

"circumventing the language filter" to enter 'sh*t' is wrong in my opinion. The language filters were put there to prevent bad language on the boards, making people more comfortable here who have less tolerance for it. You are bypassing the filter intentionally to break what it was intended to prevent. I can not think of a single instance, where "naughty words" could not be replaced or omitted, and your opinion still be conveyed.

To enter brainf*ck is fine in my opinion. You are talking about something acceptable. Most importantly, there is no other way you could convey your thoughts.

In short, I'd suggest this rule of thumb:
If you believe you must obscure what you are saying in order to present it on these forums, then you should take a step back and spend a minute or two looking at why that is so, and whether you should still be saying it if there is an alternative.

2. The infraction system.
So simply put, moderators can give you "points" at any time, in any amount, to last for any duration. They do this at their own discretion, but usually after discussion with other staff. Accumulate 10 points, and you are placed on moderation until some expire and your total drops below 10. Accumulate 15 and you are banned until they drop below 15.
But what about first time minor offenses? "Circumventing the language filter" for the first time for example? Well that's what warnings are for. These add nothing to your total, but are sort of like a note that is left on your profile. This means that if you ignore the advice, next time a mod will see this note and give points rather than another warning.

Now here is the point I want to make:
I don't like the way "warnings" and "infractions" are named differently. I believe they should both be called warnings.
Think of it like this: until you amass 10 points, all that is happenning is that you are being warned. You should take heed of the advice, discuss it, debate it, whatever. These points are not a punishment. Just forget it, move on, there are much more important things to worry about! They'll expire soon anyway, and if not, hey its not like you're standing on the edge when you've got 8 or 9 points left.
If however, you manage to accumulate 10 points, then I hope you can understand it is not a coincidence, or you being unlucky. You are simply repeatedly breaking the Forums CoC... work on it.
Finally, permanent points are not given without very good reason. Most often because of spam, or attacks against other users.

Wybiral
February 18th, 2008, 04:38 PM
Two things I want to talk about, the language filter (why it was implemented and the rule) and the infraction system.

1. The difference between why we will treat users typing "Brainf*ck" and "sh*t" differently is not the words being used, rather the intentions of the one using them.

"circumventing the language filter" to enter 'sh*t' is wrong in my opinion. The language filters were put there to prevent bad language on the boards, making people more comfortable here who have less tolerance for it. You are bypassing the filter intentionally to break what it was intended to prevent. I can not think of a single instance, where "naughty words" could not be replaced or omitted, and your opinion still be conveyed.

To enter brainf*ck is fine in my opinion. You are talking about something acceptable. Most importantly, there is no other way you could convey your thoughts.

In short, I'd suggest this rule of thumb:
If you believe you must obscure what you are saying in order to present it on these forums, then you should take a step back and spend a minute or two looking at why that is so, and whether you should still be saying it if there is an alternative.

2. The infraction system.
So simply put, moderators can give you "points" at any time, in any amount, to last for any duration. They do this at their own discretion, but usually after discussion with other staff. Accumulate 10 points, and you are placed on moderation until some expire and your total drops below 10. Accumulate 15 and you are banned until they drop below 15.
But what about first time minor offenses? "Circumventing the language filter" for the first time for example? Well that's what warnings are for. These add nothing to your total, but are sort of like a note that is left on your profile. This means that if you ignore the advice, next time a mod will see this note and give points rather than another warning.

Now here is the point I want to make:
I don't like the way "warnings" and "infractions" are named differently. I believe they should both be called warnings.
Think of it like this: until you amass 10 points, all that is happenning is that you are being warned. You should take heed of the advice, discuss it, debate it, whatever. These points are not a punishment. Just forget it, move on, there are much more important things to worry about! They'll expire soon anyway, and if not, hey its not like you're standing on the edge when you've got 8 or 9 points left.
If however, you manage to accumulate 10 points, then I hope you can understand it is not a coincidence, or you being unlucky. You are simply repeatedly breaking the Forums CoC... work on it.
Finally, permanent points are not given without very good reason. Most often because of spam, or attacks against other users.

Hey Pricey. I said I understand the need for the rule. I get it. I was just asking politely what the difference between BrainF*ck and s**t (not sh*t, big difference IMO). Personally, I say "s**t" all the time, that's part of my grammar. I actually NEVER use the real word when typing. I wasn't trying to circumvent the filter, that's a word to me. Like people use "crap" or "fudge".

But it's fine. Read my response to the moderator, I apologized and tried to make it clear that it wasn't meant to be a sneaky way around the filter. I wanted to resolve the situation and go about things happily. The real problem I have is that this particular moderator then decided that it was within his/her duty to school me on personal etiquette in a very rude manor... In my private messages, after I attempted to be polite. A moderator? I don't appreciate that kind of behavior.

PriceChild
February 18th, 2008, 07:43 PM
Hey Pricey. I said I understand the need for the rule. I get it. I was just asking politely what the difference between BrainF*ck and s**t (not sh*t, big difference IMO).Could you read my explanation again, to see why they are not different in my eyes? I'm wondering why you suggest s**t be acceptable wheras sh*t isn't?

If we are agreed "sh*t" is not acceptable, Is there a word "s**t" can represent that is acceptable? If so why not use that word instead of obscuring it?

Wybiral
February 18th, 2008, 09:00 PM
Could you read my explanation again, to see why they are not different in my eyes? I'm wondering why you suggest s**t be acceptable wheras sh*t isn't?

If we are agreed "sh*t" is not acceptable, Is there a word "s**t" can represent that is acceptable? If so why not use that word instead of obscuring it?

Could you read my explanation again, to see that I said "that's fine" I understand. That wasn't my problem, my problem was that this moderator took it further than necessary after I apologized.

PriceChild
February 18th, 2008, 09:17 PM
I wasn't questioning that, I was questioning why you believe there to be a big difference between "sh*t" and "s**t".

Wybiral
February 18th, 2008, 09:50 PM
I wasn't questioning that, I was questioning why you believe there to be a big difference between "sh*t" and "s**t".

For the same reason that you think there's a big difference between s**t and ****. I guess I'm just not as good at hangman as you :p But it's OK, I'm writing a language called "s**t", so I'll be able to use it again soon :mrgreen: Just tell that moderator to be more polite when people try to explain themselves and apologize for something (it's very rude for someone to turn a kind gesture into a lecture about manors, in fact, I'd say it's even hypocritical).

matthew
February 18th, 2008, 10:06 PM
Okay guys. Let's take it down a bit.

I think Wybiral has a point that the PM could have been written in a more moderate, polite tone. Consider that point heard.

I think PriceChild has a reasonable question about what difference could exist between different versions of *'ing out letters to mask words.

I think both of you are over reacting (said with a calm, even tone that is reminiscent of a beloved grandfather gently and lovingly chastising a dear grandchild).

You are both right, and you are both dealing with it ineffectively. Let's move on. :)