Looking for an idea/job/partner - programming->income?

[lnostdal]

Hello,
I've been a hobby programmer for many years now, and I've been thinking I could somehow make a living out of this hobby.

I can handle many types of programming related tasks:

* Web development (#1)
* Application development (cross platform, both Windows and Linux)
* Database development (PostgreSQL, MySQL)
* Interfacing with the PC (PC <--> sensors/temperature/pressure/etc., other devices)


..but I do not yet understand how I can leverage this knowledge enabling me to live of it.

I know I could do a job search and find a company that has customers with "pre-defined" needs -- but how did that company find these customers in the first place? What do people need? How did the company know that they would find these customers while developing their product(s) in their startup phase?

Maybe I should create a demo product or software of some sort to show (who?) what I am capable of. But what should that software be or do?

It would be very interesting if I could do this -- and maybe build on it later (to save time), and eventually have something fully functional (not just a demo or showcase) that people/customers would actually need.

..any thoughts? I guess I must admit that I'm pretty clueless when it comes to this stuff ... x)


#1: Following the AJAX hype I created an AJAX client to a game of Go ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_(board_game) ). It got some moderate interest from a handful of Go geeks.

[ruy_lopez]

You must like eating spam. Enable email for private messages under User CP pulldown, and then edit out your email address, before it's too late.

[lnostdal]

it's no problem actually :) i use usenet and my email address is all over the place already (so it's too late i'm afraid)

i don't like the idea of forcing people to register with this site to be able to get in touch with me

[Wybiral]

Gmail has the best spam protection around anyway.

lnostdal: if you figure it out, be sure to let me know :) I've been asking the same question (I can find odd-jobs here and there, but it would sure be nice to have a sturdy project or two that I could get paid for).

[ruy_lopez]

i don't like the idea of forcing people to register with this site to be able to get in touch with me

I understand.

Best of luck with the effort. My advice (which isn't usually very reliable) is pretend you are a customer. Or better still, pretend you are representing a customer (ie. representing customers is your job). Find out what companies offer. Since you don't know what your next customer will want, you'll need to know what services are on offer (in great detail).

That's my advice. Pretend you are a third-party representing a client. It should get most sales people to start salivating. You'll be developing a relationship with the technical department. That's what your clients want. So you ask to speak to the developers. You come from a tech background yourself (mention some technical jargon to bewilder sales person).

When you finally get to speak to a programmer, find out what they're working on at the moment, leverage your geek skills.

The only way to deal with people in suits is to lie (think of it as learning a new programming language, called BS).

[apetresc]

#1: Following the AJAX hype I created an AJAX client to a game of Go ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_(board_game) ). It got some moderate interest from a handful of Go geeks.
Oh, really? Which one? :D The only AJAX client I can think of that was produced lately is Eidogo. Was that you?

[pmasiar]

I assume you want online consulting contract jobs, not real employment as a staff programmer in some boring or even interesting company?

People pay for solving problems. One way of getting such job is to become expert in some package which solves some problem, like Satchmo e-shop, tinyERP etc. Find a good web graphic designer you will work with.

Another way to get interesting job in programming is to find if your local research university is looking for programmers - but not in IT, look at support for research scientists.

[pmasiar]

The only way to deal with people in suits is to lie (think of it as learning a new programming language, called BS).

So wrong. You cannot build relationship with anyone if you start with a lie.

[pedro_orange]

Find a hole in the market, or become an expert in a particular piece of software big companies use, like pmasiar said if you want to consult.

I know a few JDEdwards developers, they get paid silly amounts. One used to work in London Mon-Fri and go back to Sweden every weekend. As expenses. What a life.

If you can get training and certification in that area, it also makes you look like a better bet.
I went down the, 9-5 working for the same company route. 9 days out of 10 are very samey, writing small patches/fixes, helping out with support of our software.
But you stay working there cause that 1 day you get a great problem to solve, or you are discussing with workmates the best method to implement the latest project. Throwing ideas around, and then knocking up a prototype. Great agile development.

You've also got to remember, as a consultant you're treated as lowest of the low by any company. First sign of difficulties you'll probably be one of the first to go. Life's hard as a consultant, even if the money is good!

[ZylGadis]

Lars / Wybiral,

In a capitalist world you have to market your skills. The dirty phrase "sell yourself" comes to mind (how many people do not ever think of the implications when using it, even though slavery is abolished and prostitution is illegal...)
Marketing your skills means you have less time to develop them. What is more, the mindset of marketing is such that it ruins the mindset of good coding. That is a fact of life.
The solution I have found for myself: do not market. Do not work with stupid people of any sort. To me, my mind is more important than someone's money. True, you have to eat, but there are endless opportunities for paid jobs that do not require you to market. You only have to find your little corner of the world and keep it safe from encroaching idiots. I am in academia, and I like it so far. I have some time for my hobbies, and I have recently discovered that I like teaching (which is what I'm currently being paid for, and what I'll hopefully be paid for later, too).

Never confuse work with pleasure. The two do not mix.

[cprofitt]

lnostdal:

It depends on what 'type' of income you want to draw from it... and the 'nature' of the development projects you are willing to undertake.

If you want to sell and support a pre-built application that is far different that building custom applications per client.

I learned C# and ASP.net and started making money from it by developing custom applications for customers. This involves some skills that are not related to programming. Your customer is usually not able to accurately describe to you the requirements they have for custom software. It will be up to you to observe what they currently do and then translate that in to what the program can (or can not do) in making a 'design' and proposing it to them.

For websites I have created user-maintained sites that do not require any maintenance for me and are hosted by third-party hosting companies that the client picks (I provide them with a list of providers compatible with the languages/platforms I know).

I have sold two custom CRM applications and the key to being successful was working well with the customer.

Overall the first thing you need to do it either build an app that you think people would buy or find a person you know is willing to pay for a custom application.

Given you are using a FOSS OS I am not sure if making a pre-built app is something you would feel comfortable charging for... then again if you pre-build an app you can charge them for installation, configuration and other on-going work that would be needed.

[mb108]

I'd like to suggest going to expos/conventions. Meet people, talk with them, let them know you can code. I wouldn't have originally thought of this for getting programming work, but over the weekend I was at SCALE. I went to a talk about OpenAFS, and the speaker literally said:

"If you're a developer and learn OpenAFS, I can guarantee lots and lots of work. Regular, contract, whatever. Big companies use our system, they need features, and we're short on devs."

There weren't more than 2 coders in the room.


I guess I fall into the trap of thinking programming is different because it's "computer work", but it's just like anything else: It's all about who you know.

Also: do some open-source work. It will build your reputation and portfolio/resume, and possibly get you some letters of recommendation.

[pmasiar]

Networking with people is key to getting a job. Best jobs are not posted on boards, they are advertised informally: on dev blogs, at talks and meetings, or just customer realizes that s/he has some need.

If you still think it is a good idea to get job via recruiter, I would recommend to work for a IT recruiter for a month or two, even for minimal salary. You will see the process from inside.

[ruy_lopez]

So wrong. You cannot build relationship with anyone if you start with a lie.

woosh!

[lnostdal]

some interesting points .. i'll get back to this thread .. thanks guys =)

[themusicwave]

If you're really serious you could always go get a degree in computer science or software engineering.

The way the market is now you have to beat the head hunters off with a stick. At least that was my experience having graduated with my B.S. in Software Engineering 6 months ago.

I had tons of offers, it was a difficult 4 years and I learned sleep deprivation, but I would do it again for sure.

It is kind of a long road, but it will pay off for sure.

I guess it depends how serious you are.

[RIchard James13]

I think it is both what you know and who you know.

I got a job as a computer technician with a company started by my parents. But in that role I played a major part as the buck stops here person. If something somewhere broke I could usually fix it. I knew how to do that because I had studied (by myself) both Hardware and Software since I was a teenager. I remember one job where a pottery place had a PLC that ran their kiln. The person that had programmed it in the beginning had left no documentation as to what he had done. Then the PLC lost the program. I had to not only fix it but I had to complete the work of the previous programmer and write the actual documentation. You don't have to have that level of skill to get a job though.

Now I am doing a Diploma of IT and at the end of the course I would like a job as a programmer. Since I get good marks, I know how programming works and thanks to my years as a computer technician I understand how business IT works I am in a much better position to get that sort of job. But to actually get a job I have to ask a teacher, and she will find me a job. They aren't even listed in the newspaper, or on the web. She just knows people who need programmers that can do the job.

go to a conference and you might get a job
http://www.geekosophical.net/?p=177

[lnostdal]

... Then the PLC lost the program. I had to not only fix it but I had to complete the work of the previous programmer and write the actual documentation. You don't have to have that level of skill to get a job though.


oh, i do know how to program PLCs .. =)


.. and thanks to my years as a computer technician I understand how business IT works I am in a much better position to get that sort of job. But to actually get a job I have to ask a teacher, and she will find me a job. They aren't even listed in the newspaper, or on the web. She just knows people who need programmers that can do the job.


yes, i think this is the part i've been missing out on .. the business know-how, people, contacts and friends with the same interest as me .. i have no (real life) friends that have any interest in computers .. no family that understand computers or have any real interest in them


go to a conference and you might get a job
http://www.geekosophical.net/?p=177


yes, this seems like a good idea .. i wonder if there are any here in norway atm. .. i'll try to push myself into actually going to one of these conferences - i have actually thought about it before

[pmasiar]

i think this is the part i've been missing out on .. the business know-how, people, contacts and friends with the same interest as me .. i have no (real life) friends that have any interest in computers ..

Find local Linux/FOSS group, Pythoneers or something. Oslo is quite far, but there might be something in Larvik?

And of course you need some kind of education or certification.

[lnostdal]

Hi again,
I'll get straight to the point. It turns out I've found a client and I've been working with him for some time now with the back-end and the database, but I've realized that my skills as a visual artist/designer is not on par with my programming skills and I was wondering if there where someone "out there" who might help me with this?

I'd be very interested in getting in touch with someone who has both gfx, CSS and HTML skills(#1). Both for this and future projects actually.

You do not have to worry about any of the programming-stuff. No heavy JavaScript, no server-side scripting/PHP/whatever(#2), no database. I'll deal with all that, and I can promise you that this will not be a painful experience for you caused by a programmer that does not understand the problems of mixing logic and presentation or similar. I'm good at what I do, and I can twist and turn the output to almost anything you find most comfortable in a short amount of time.

Oh, and we will of course be working on Linux-servers(#3), only. =)

Note that I cannot with 100% certainty promise a job at this time(#4). If you're not a designer (still reading??) but you know someone who might be interested in this please direct them to this post. Or they can reach me directly via email/msn/jabber/gtalk: larsnostdal@gmail.com Email is usually the best way to get hold of me, at least initially.

Regardless of how this particular case turns out I'd still be very interested in having some artists/designers in my address book. It's currently filled with "coding-geeks" and could use some variation.


#1: i don't care about (edit: formal) education just as long as you're able to do what you're "built to do"

#2: for those interested - i'm using Common Lisp as programming language, Hunchentoot as HTTP server (with Lighttpd as proxy), PostgreSQL as database .. all great stuff, i'm having a total blast!

#3: ubuntu and debian .. oh, and sshfs is great for this stuff btw. .. if you do not know anything about sshfs i can show you, it is simple .. and it is very, very nice for both programmers and designers

#4: there is a chance my client is satisfied with the "design" i've done already, even though i am not satisfied with it personally =) .. don't let this put you off though .. i _really_ need to have someone who understands design "available"! (the client will have more jobs for me (us?) later)