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stooshbunutu
February 5th, 2008, 03:24 PM
Hello all of you out there,

Where is a good, preferable, free place to start learning to program, I have a fairly good understanding of html but want to be able to do more. I suppose I would like to learn to program for ubuntu rather than windows but cross platform languages would be best.

Welcome any advice given

Cheerz :)

Lster
February 5th, 2008, 03:32 PM
These sticky threads may help:

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=667422

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=554070

Zugzwang
February 5th, 2008, 03:33 PM
It really depends on what you want to do: Simple programs / web services / games / etc.

Just wait a couple of minutes and Laroza will turn up and suggest to learn the language Python, which is cross-platform and will point you to his wiki containing tutorials on that.

Furthermore the so called "stickies" (the posts that are always at the beginning of the list in this forum) should help to answer most of your questions.

pmasiar
February 5th, 2008, 03:59 PM
Surprise: Instead of LaRoza, I turned up and point out my wiki :-) "Nobody expects inquisition!" :-)

(BTW above quote is from Monty Python (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monty_python) sketch. Inside Monty Python jokes are one of the benefits of naming a language after famous comedian group :-D )

LaRoza's wiki links to mine :-) It has tutorial and guides for beginners, and training tasks.

LaRoza
February 5th, 2008, 04:01 PM
I recommend learning Lisp, I am learning GNU Common Lisp at the moment.

http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html : Many famous hackers state that Lisp is the most powerful language and should be learned.

Lisp Quotes: http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html

I recommend using this tutorial: http://www.notam02.no/internt/cm-sys/cm-2.2/doc/clt.html

Of course, as the others stated, you might want to use the stickies for a more objective answer.

LaRoza
February 5th, 2008, 04:06 PM
Surprise: Instead of LaRoza, I turned up and point out my wiki :-) "Nobody expects inquisition!" :-)

(BTW above quote is from Monty Python (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monty_python) sketch. Inside Monty Python jokes are one of the benefits of naming a language after famous comedian group :-D )


There is only one thing to know about the inquisition, surprise is our primary weapon, along with fear...two things to know, surprise and fear are our primary weapons and also...

(Paraphrased)

It isn't an inside joke anymore, the whole forum has been awash with Monty Python references (my new avatar and title reflect that).

aks44
February 5th, 2008, 04:17 PM
There is only one thing to know about the inquisition, surprise is our primary weapon, along with fear...two things to know, surprise and fear are our primary weapons and also...

But I'm pretty sure even the Inquisition fears the almighty Knights who say... ;)

Shin_Gouki2501
February 5th, 2008, 04:18 PM
I'd like to point out my thoughts from here( regarding "best frist programming language":
In my opinion u cant simply say: language x,y,z ist a good starter language.
Its more like this: a programming language puts a layer ( or 2 ) of abstraction
between the hardware and what the user wants the software todo with the hardware.

Depening on how much the "new comer" wants to dive into information computing there are diffrent options.

Some Ideas:
1.For Basic Information Understand u might try:
While the Thread Starte.g. mentiones assembly as first language, he didn't mentioned potential reasons for that.
If u imagine a Computer its quite good to start with the " von neumann" architecture:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_Neumann_architecture
U may certainly discover the CPU and that it has registers.
Assembly Language puts (imo) a very comprehensive View on how Registers on a CPU work and ultimatly this enables information Processing on the Computer ( even today!)

2. so C .. C++ thing?
So some people think its essential to know about the coherences of programming source files, compiler and binary(binary execution). While that could be somehow interesting question is how MUCH it has todo with "programming"? Or is it more program execution related?!
Is it not more important to distinct between programming paradigms and why u do so?!

3. See some Fast results
Use some GUI components , Connect to some database that can be done easily using alomst all of the poll stated options. U May create very fast results but thats not about programming. In fact Programming is a lot, and even so much boring theory that a human beeing is almost unable to understand all final cosequences.
(see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_completeness and related if u want )
So its better to make some cut choices OR invest some time trying to understand the big picture a bit better.

4.Where u want to get?
Maybe u start to realize that programming is some kind of craft thing(using tools, pattern to solve common problems...). Now if u know what domain u are interested in u can start in most cases easily with a favored language for that domain. And based upon that u might explore the rest , if ur interested
My answer or question to "programming" starters is:
Where u want to get- Examples?

* Database programmer look into SQL , PHP, Java..
* Games developper? , OpenGL , directX ...

I thinks its best to first discuss the domain of interest before starting language debates.
IF u do want to code get some fundamental concepts of information computing to know.
Then decide ur domain of interest(GUI or server based).

LaRoza
February 5th, 2008, 04:24 PM
Where is a good, preferable, free place to start learning to program, I have a fairly good understanding of html but want to be able to do more. I suppose I would like to learn to program for ubuntu rather than windows but cross platform languages would be best.


For Linux, and Ubuntu specifically, C and Python are used. Both are cross platform also.

I recommend learning Python, C, then Lisp. The stickies have links to learning and reference resources.

This topic comes up many times, and viewing the other threads on it will shed light on the arguments involved for any of the languages.

ghostdog74
February 5th, 2008, 05:03 PM
Something is seriously wrong here. Why does everybody who ask these types of question missed the stickies? How about putting the stickies in big fonts? Or how about putting a pop up message telling newbies to read the stickies? or is it that these stickies are uninformative and doesn't serve their purpose?

Shin_Gouki2501
February 5th, 2008, 05:22 PM
because ( as i have stated in the other thread to laRozza )
The motivations to learn programming aas the styles of leraning programming are qutie unique as we are all individuals.
As much as u love the idea of writing 1 tutorial (aka stiky forums..) and 10000 people using it, that won't work.
Most people (wow see this case again!) are simply unsure how to start , so they ask and then get start.
If u read what i wrote above. What the newcomers actually COULD do before they ask questions here is that they could figure out their domain of interest.
Because for someone who wants to get startet with databases it doesn't make much sense to instruct him on C or Shell Script.
Get my point?

Ah and anotherthing.. why u always missout Java?! Laroza! ^^ U need to tell them if they wanna cross platform Java IS also a very nice alternative!
:)

pmasiar
February 5th, 2008, 05:59 PM
Something is seriously wrong here. Why does everybody who ask these types of question missed the stickies? How about putting the stickies in big fonts? Or how about putting a pop up message telling newbies to read the stickies? or is it that these stickies are uninformative and doesn't serve their purpose?

As we discussed elsewhere, i suggested to put "Did you read stickies?" right next to "new post". Maybe add link to "how to ask questions"

Maybe we can go one step further. We are programmers here, not the total green beginners, and we expect people to follow advice.

So I suggest:
1) create 5-10 stickies, and title itself would be the question being asked. If you glance over, you cannot miss it.
2) If poster asks question which obviously matches FAQ, answer it by pointing to stickies and award poster one infraction point. This point has no other meaning that this is a possible dyslectic who cannot read, or leech who does not care about wasting our time on re-answering FAQ.

It is too harsh? But what other incentive we have to make sure people read FAQs?

cprofitt
February 5th, 2008, 05:59 PM
I recommend learning Lisp, I am learning GNU Common Lisp at the moment.

http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html : Many famous hackers state that Lisp is the most powerful language and should be learned.

Lisp Quotes: http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html

I recommend using this tutorial: http://www.notam02.no/internt/cm-sys/cm-2.2/doc/clt.html

Of course, as the others stated, you might want to use the stickies for a more objective answer.

LISP over Python; heretic!!!

Hmm... have to look at Lisp after C. I am going to catch up to you LaRosa... I promise... after the kids are asleep and the wife stops having me do late night projects I will find the time to catch you!!! I will!! :)

aks44
February 5th, 2008, 06:12 PM
We are programmers here, not the total green beginners, and we expect people to follow advice.

I'd tend to disagree: when it comes to the kind of question this very thread addresses, we're actually dealing with total beginners, which explains why most of them don't have yet the discipline of searching the information by themselves.

pmasiar
February 5th, 2008, 07:26 PM
LISP over Python; heretic!!!

There is no heresy: LaRoza is part of inquisition, and as mod she is infallible after all! :-) Most of us know (it is past year 1984 :-) ) that
(1) those who control the present, control the past (and mods can edit past posts)
(2) those who control the past, control the future (think about consequences of (1) :-) )

LaRoza only correctly pointed out that suggesting your current language preference, without any background or consideration of OP skill level and goals is meaningless. Regardless, many people do just that.

cprofitt
February 5th, 2008, 07:30 PM
There is no heresy: LaRoza is part of inquisition, and as mod she is infallible after all! :-) Most of us know (it is past year 1984 :-) ) that
(1) those who control the present, control the past (and mods can edit past posts)
(2) those who control the past, control the future (think about consequences of (1) :-) )

LaRoza only correctly pointed out that suggesting your current language preference, without any background or consideration of OP skill level and goals is meaningless. Regardless, many people do just that.

Heretic!!!

Now I need to figure out how to prove that you are not a witch.

How do we do that?

<eyes the duck in the corner of the room>

pmasiar
February 5th, 2008, 07:34 PM
I'd tend to disagree: when it comes to the kind of question this very thread addresses, we're actually dealing with total beginners, which explains why most of them don't have yet the discipline of searching the information by themselves.

Even if advice is right next to the button they clicked?

Let me link to thread where we discussed this:

http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=4261337&postcount=12

Maybe lets continue discussion about improving FAQs there - more context :-)

pmasiar
February 5th, 2008, 07:41 PM
Now I need to figure out how to prove that you are not a witch.


Impossible. On Internet, nobody knows you are a dog (http://www.epatric.com/funstuff/dog/)

cprofitt
February 5th, 2008, 07:43 PM
Impossible. On Internet, nobody knows you are a dog (http://www.epatric.com/funstuff/dog/)

I think maybe if we try burning you and you burn... then you are witch... because witches are made of wood; right?

LaRoza
February 5th, 2008, 08:46 PM
I think maybe if we try burning you and you burn... then you are witch... because witches are made of wood; right?

You got it all wrong, you have to see compare the weight with a duck, because ducks float.

LaRoza
February 5th, 2008, 08:55 PM
Ah and anotherthing.. why u always missout Java?! Laroza! ^^ U need to tell them if they wanna cross platform Java IS also a very nice alternative!
:)

For beginners:



#! /usr/bin/python

print "Hello world"




class hw
{
public static void main (String[] args)
{
System.out.println ("Hello, world.");
}
}


Why do I recommend Python over Java for beginners? Speed of learning.

Shin_Gouki2501
February 5th, 2008, 09:07 PM
Groovy? (looks quite same as python)
Scala?

remember Java is a Platform not anymore the only language for that Platform!

cprofitt
February 5th, 2008, 09:18 PM
Groovy? (looks quite same as python)
Scala?

remember Java is a Platform not anymore the only language for that Platform!

Top code block is Python.

Bottom is Java.

Shin_Gouki2501
February 5th, 2008, 10:19 PM
ohh REALLLY O_O
im not blind ;)
and i said groovy example ( which runs on JVM) is about as short as the python example!
Kinda misunderstanding

LaRoza
February 5th, 2008, 10:24 PM
Groovy? (looks quite same as python)
Scala?

remember Java is a Platform not anymore the only language for that Platform!

Why? When one learns to program, they hardly care about the platform.

Why not Jython then?

Shin_Gouki2501
February 5th, 2008, 10:38 PM
yes
why not jython but u can admit then in the windows world the Java runtime is pretty commonly used.

LaRoza
February 5th, 2008, 10:42 PM
yes
why not jython but u can admit then in the windows world the Java runtime is pretty commonly used.

I don't use Windows.

Installing Python is easy, use the ActivePython version.

Python comes with HP and Compaq computers, all Macs, and most Linux distros. Java doesn't come with Windows, Linux (usually), and I don't know about Macs.

If you are going to be programming, you will have to install the Java JDK in almost every case. I know of no OS that comes with it. With Python, you only have to install the interpreter if you don't already have it.

stooshbunutu
February 6th, 2008, 11:35 AM
Sorry to be a toal "newbie" and not traul the stickies for an answer that will suit my need, if it may exist.

Having read the posts I think that python would be best for me and seems simpler. What program would you recomend using as I am running Gusty 7.10, bearing in mind I have to get all my programs via the packages.ubuntu site as the only internet connection in my house is on my dads WinXP computer.

Cheers for any help offered :)

CptPicard
February 6th, 2008, 01:16 PM
I believe the <blink> tag was invented for the express purpose of making noobs notice the stickies.

Now, finally I figured that one out.

LaRoza
February 6th, 2008, 01:21 PM
I believe the <blink> tag was invented for the express purpose of making noobs notice the stickies.

Now, finally I figured that one out.

Schrödinger's cat is <blink>not</blink> dead.

cprofitt
February 6th, 2008, 01:28 PM
ohh REALLLY O_O
im not blind ;)
and i said groovy example ( which runs on JVM) is about as short as the python example!
Kinda misunderstanding

Ah... with the odd assortment of languages out there I thought you might have been talking about another weird name language called Groovy. :-)

pmasiar
February 6th, 2008, 02:22 PM
Sorry to be a toal "newbie" and not traul the stickies for an answer that will suit my need, if it may exist.

Sorry if it sounds hards to you, but IMHO there is **NO** excuse for NOT reading stickies.

One of the most important for you is "How to ask questions", also in my sig.

Shin_Gouki2501
February 6th, 2008, 08:37 PM
I don't use Windows.

Installing Python is easy, use the ActivePython version.

Python comes with HP and Compaq computers, all Macs, and most Linux distros. Java doesn't come with Windows, Linux (usually), and I don't know about Macs.

If you are going to be programming, you will have to install the Java JDK in almost every case. I know of no OS that comes with it. With Python, you only have to install the interpreter if you don't already have it.

"almost every case"
:D

why are u pushing so hard? Once IcedTea is rdy
all and finally _all_ OSS gurus will finally start using java ,so it will ship with the distros.
Be ahead of ur time ;)

LaRoza
February 6th, 2008, 08:39 PM
"almost every case"
:D

why are u pushing so hard? Once IcedTea is rdy
all and finally _all_ OSS gurus will finally start using java ,so it will ship with the distros.
Be ahead of ur time ;)

What do you mean? I recommend Python as the way to get into programming, for speed of learning mostly and ease of use.

I don't recommend Python for everything and know many languages, including Java.

The JRE may ship, but I doubt any OS will ship with the JDK.

pmasiar
February 6th, 2008, 09:39 PM
why are u pushing so hard? Once IcedTea is rdy

maybe because Python is better programming language for beginner, regardless of legal situation of java SDK? And maybe because we discussed this to the death multiple times? Why not add discussion in context, as linked from stickies?

Shin_Gouki2501
February 7th, 2008, 07:02 PM
if u cared to read before i mentiones that , when i use the term "java" i'm talking about the java platform. so groovy is same easy as python!
And IF java is complete on OS then i really hope thigns get changed because its a great platform!

LaRoza
February 7th, 2008, 10:10 PM
if u cared to read before i mentiones that , when i use the term "java" i'm talking about the java platform. so groovy is same easy as python!
And IF java is complete on OS then i really hope thigns get changed because its a great platform!

Why is Java such a great platform?

pmasiar
February 7th, 2008, 10:35 PM
so groovy is same easy as python!

Google found me this quote from Groovy's author (http://www.pythonthreads.com/news/latest/there-s-no-compelling-reason-to-choose-groovy-over-jython..html) : "no compelling reason to choose Groovy if your teammates know Python well."

So can you substantiate your enthusiasm for Groovy? If Jython gives all the goodness of Python on JVM?

Shin_Gouki2501
February 8th, 2008, 05:32 PM
Why is Java such a great platform?

because its choice for future , with Java 7 , Java becomes "officially" a Multilanguage platform like the .NET CLR.
so yes Jython u can use it of course too!

LaRoza
February 8th, 2008, 05:45 PM
because its choice for future , with Java 7 , Java becomes "officially" a Multilanguage platform like the .NET CLR.
so yes Jython u can use it of course too!

That doesn't answer the question.

Why is Java such a great platform?

ghostdog74
February 8th, 2008, 05:53 PM
come on now, guys. give him a break. He advocates Java, so be it. In the end, its OP's call, not yours.
I think this Python hype had become too overly excessive.

pmasiar
February 8th, 2008, 05:54 PM
because its choice for future

It is hard to make predisctions, especially predictions abot the future. :-)

So far, java is one of the three platforms (Java, .NET, and "free platform": lets put all GNU/Linux/FOSS/BDS languages together). It is released under GPL, but for decade was developed separate (and often deliberatedly incompatible) with other platforms.

I strongly believe that "free platform" is not going away for many reasons, including economical and political (sovereign nations prefer to control own IT industry, and only free platform gives them that choice).

And after recent anouncements and course changes (static language for libraries, dynamic for apps, and making .NET friendly to dynamic languages), .NET seems to "get" what developers need better than Java.

pmasiar
February 8th, 2008, 06:03 PM
its OP's call, not yours.

Yes, but should I let stand something what I believe is wrong? Should not I be able to dispute opinions, and require facts to substantiate them?

I think this Python hype had become too overly excessive.

So it is OK to hype up Java but not Python?

Java gained it's current position partly by marketing hype paid by profits from sales of Sun's hardware (and yes, I know Java was interesting solution for some problems with MSFT back in 1997).

Python popularity is based mostly on word of mouth. Many people (including me) who prefer Java over Python know both languages (and more). Many people who hype Java seems to know no other language, or only C/C++. So why should I stay silent, when someone is voicing (IMNSHO wrong) opinion, based on IMNSHO ignorance (from my POV of decades of experience in IT)?

Edit:

Many people (including me) who prefer Java over Python know both languages
Huh? What a stupid typo, anyone who knows me knows it was just a typo. Of course I prefer Python over Java (but was writing Java code at time of writing that.

LaRoza
February 8th, 2008, 06:28 PM
come on now, guys. give him a break. He advocates Java, so be it. In the end, its OP's call, not yours.
I think this Python hype had become too overly excessive.

It has nothing to do with Python, a unsubstantiated statement was made, and I am asking for more information.



all and finally _all_ OSS gurus will finally start using java ,so it will ship with the distros.
Be ahead of ur time


* Why will _all_ OSS gurus finally start using Java (which is an old language, to begin with)

* Be ahead with the times with an older language?



if u cared to read before i mentiones that , when i use the term "java" i'm talking about the java platform. so groovy is same easy as python!
And IF java is complete on OS then i really hope thigns get changed because its a great platform!

* The "great platform" line.



because its choice for future , with Java 7 , Java becomes "officially" a Multilanguage platform like the .NET CLR.
so yes Jython u can use it of course too!


Is this the reason why it is a great platform? Why is it the choice of the future?

Even if these statements were correct, this is clearly an example of poor communication.

ghostdog74
February 8th, 2008, 06:31 PM
Yes, but should I let stand something what I believe is wrong? Should not I be able to dispute opinions, and require facts to substantiate them?

You are most entitled to your opinions, it doesn't matter to me.


So it is OK to hype up Java but not Python?

I am not saying you can't, if you read a bit more carefully, i just said its too excessive.
All i am saying is, just stop this and start solving real problems instead.

ghostdog74
February 8th, 2008, 06:42 PM
It has nothing to do with Python, a unsubstantiated statement was made, and I am asking for more information.

you mean you want him to substantiate why "Java is a great platform" , just like someone may ask you , why is Python a great beginner's language? What will happen if he gives you 10 good reasons why Java is a great platform? Will you let the matter "rest" ? :)

pmasiar
February 8th, 2008, 06:44 PM
You are most entitled to your opinions, it doesn't matter to me.

Seems it does matter if you want me to stop, but anyway...


All i am saying is, just stop this and start solving real problems instead.

Sure, I am trying to answer OP's question, where to start. :-) and arguing against suggestions which are IMHO wrong path to start. :-)

Do you volunteer do create some "clean FAQ"? Which one?

LaRoza
February 8th, 2008, 06:47 PM
you mean you want him to substantiate why "Java is a great platform" , just like someone may ask you , why is Python a great beginner's language? What will happen if he gives you 10 good reasons why Java is a great platform? Will you let the matter "rest" ? :)

Yes, I just want to know why Java is "a great platform" and is the future. It seems to me me that the poster knows Java and no other language as well.

I know several languages, including Java, but have found no reason to make such statements.

I usually give the recommendation to learn Python, C and Lisp.

Python: Clean syntax, Easy to understand/read/learn, Large Library, Very Portable

C: Learn more about how computers actually work, and learn how a higher level language works

Lisp: Learn another paradigm and how to think differently can only make one a better programmer.

(The languages could easily be Ruby, Assembly, then Haskell as well)

pmasiar
February 8th, 2008, 06:54 PM
you mean you want him to substantiate why "Java is a great platform" , just like someone may ask you , why is Python a great beginner's language?

We mentioned why Python and not Java in this and many other threads. Did you missed them? Start from stickies :-)

So that poster will unlikely add new reasons, if ever any.


What will happen if he gives you 10 good reasons why Java is a great platform?

I will read it in with interest, and try to understand if the reasons are relevant to my situation. So far no reasons tho. :-/

maybe next time, in such themes prone to flameward, mod might post something like "flamewars watch" and if someone posts unsubstiated claim and leaves (in fact, starting flamewars like this one), will get one infraction point?

ghostdog74
February 8th, 2008, 06:54 PM
Do you volunteer do create some "clean FAQ"? Which one?
Is there an appropriate thread or forum for this ? don't think its appropriate to discuss in this thread as i think we should close this thread.

pmasiar
February 8th, 2008, 06:58 PM
Yup, closing might be a good idea - and maybe reopen if there are any new claims supporting Java superiority.

Maybe someone who likes Java could write FAQ why Java is so great, and then add some criticizm which will inevitably emerge, and next time we can kill such wastefull flamewars by linking to that FAQ?

Shin_Gouki2501
February 9th, 2008, 11:13 AM
well those 3 platform things ( and again Laroza take java as language and not platform) i certainly disagree with that.
"free" ".NET" and "java"
Java IS actually already freed since the community decides and pushes many ( if not all?!) aspectes of the developement of the java platform.
The "future" is with mulilanguage support for one platfrom because u can use the language of UR choice for the occuring problems. And Java Platform has already such a rich component base its incredible!

This discusion however does not seem to run certainly somewhere.
I didn't want u to sign to be now all happy Java preachers.
But as a matter of fact u teach here MANY starters programming basics and in my opinion. So from teaching comes responsibility. If ur talking about OS and free software. u may say:
C lisp and python are great to learn, BUT u actually might try somethings on the Java platform. That would be fair enough i think.

That were my point from the beginning of the discusion. I'm sorry if it slipped away kinda.

CptPicard
February 9th, 2008, 12:35 PM
Many people (including me) who prefer Java over Python know both languages (and more).

Huh? Are you feeling ok? ;)

Anyway, sadly, I have to agree with the feelings that most Java-hypers are the ones who know nothing but Java and then just push it out of some emotional allegiance borne out of their own limited skillset.

That said, I write most of my own stuff on Java simply because it is the best crossplatform solution for my needs. It's identical on Linux (my platform) and Windows (client platform), has fairly easy threading abstractions, and most importantly, is actually quite fast compared to any alternatives. C# *might* be a really strong challenger, but as I never learned that language, I don't know.

As a language it's nothing to really write home about, but it gets the job done. It's got good tools, but mostly because you need good tools with a language like that... I still don't understand how some people bother to write Java and (often) the associated XML etc without decent a decent IDE...

pmasiar
February 9th, 2008, 07:47 PM
well those 3 platform things ( and again Laroza take java as language and not platform) i certainly disagree with that.
"free" ".NET" and "java"
Java IS actually already freed since the community decides and pushes many ( if not all?!) aspectes of the developement of the java platform.


You are mixing license with compatibility.

Even as Java is released under GPL, but it's design makes it completely incompatible with "free" platform: Java web apps need Tomcat and don't run on Apache, Java uses own libraries and tools for everything, and no "free platform" tools use java tools, ie Ant for build.

And Java development is tightly controlled by Sun, I am not sure if they ever accepted code patch from outside. Sun only recently joined Eclipse (and certainly Eclipse was founded by IBM and named so for a reason).

So Java is far from rosy picture "u" are trying to paint (it's quite possible that "ur" not aware of all that). But then, it does seems like "u" don't care about details too much. :-)

Java stands apart from "free platform" by it's own design decision, and change of license is nice, but does not reverse past design decisions.

pmasiar
February 9th, 2008, 07:53 PM
Many people (including me) who prefer Java over Python know both languages


Huh? Are you feeling ok? ;)


What a stupid typo, anyone who knows me knows it was just a typo. Of course I prefer Python over Java (but was writing Java code at time of writing that :-)

LaRoza
February 9th, 2008, 08:38 PM
C lisp and python are great to learn, BUT u actually might try somethings on the Java platform. That would be fair enough i think.

That were my point from the beginning of the discusion. I'm sorry if it slipped away kinda.

I know Java and and have used other languages on the Java platform, and I don't see anything great about it.

I don't know if you speak english natively, but it is best to spell out words. Write "you" instead of "u" and "are" instead of "r".

Not only will fluent english speakers find it easier to read, but those that are not fluent in english will benefit from standard (and correct) spelling.

From the Ubuntu Forums Code of Conduct:



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When writing a post, please space paragraphs with a blank line in between them for better readability.

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Shin_Gouki2501
February 9th, 2008, 09:05 PM
i like u and r, i'm lazy so i keep it cut
i'm gettign tired of this "flame" war i pointed my important point s( see above)
pmasiar
u heave heard of JCP?
Not few of great java features DID acutally came from community projects!
The Platform is opening up and thats a good thing, over and out from here ;)

LaRoza
February 9th, 2008, 09:26 PM
i like u and r, i'm lazy so i keep it cut
i'm gettign tired of this "flame" war i pointed my important point s( see above)
pmasiar
u heave heard of JCP?
Not few of great java features DID acutally came from community projects!
The Platform is opening up and thats a good thing, over and out from here ;)

Read the Ubuntu Forums Code of Conduct again, then rethink your position.

Shin_Gouki2501
February 9th, 2008, 10:17 PM
agreed i will try in future to avoid "u" and "r"
:O
happy?

LaRoza
February 9th, 2008, 10:37 PM
agreed i will try in future to avoid "u" and "r"
:O
happy?

I suggest you read this: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/hacker-howto.html#skills4

In case you don't trust the source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Raymond

Someone closer to us: http://kmandla.wordpress.com/2008/02/02/an-interview-with-tseliot/

It isn't me (and the rest of us) being grammar nazis, it is a very important part of programming to write clean code and proper English.

popch
February 9th, 2008, 10:49 PM
It isn't me (and the rest of us) being grammar nazis, it is a very important part of programming to write clean code and proper English.

Being of jewish descent, I would certainly not call myself anything 'Nazi'. Also, being Swiss, my native language is not English.

However, I am something of a speed reader. I read standard English rather faster than it is being spoken.

I read 'funny' English at half that speed or slower. Given any choice, I will cheerfully ignore anything which is designed to make me read slower or which is geared towards being harder to understand.

Therefore I thank you very much in supporting 'proper' language.

LaRoza
February 9th, 2008, 10:52 PM
Being of jewish descent, I would certainly not call myself anything 'Nazi'. Also, being Swiss, my native language is not English.

However, I am something of a speed reader. I read standard English rather faster than it is being spoken.

I read 'funny' English at half that speed or slower. Given any choice, I will cheerfully ignore anything which is designed to make me read slower or which is geared towards being harder to understand.

Therefore I thank you very much in supporting 'proper' language.

Sorry, in the USA (at least), "grammer nazi" is a phrase that refers to someone who corrects everyone when they make mistakes.

http://xkcd.com/326/

popch
February 9th, 2008, 11:00 PM
Sorry, in the USA (at least), "grammer nazi" is a phrase that refers to someone who corrects everyone when they make mistakes.

Sorry to have taken that off topic. No offense taken, and none meant. I do not object to Americans or Australians using that term, even though I would not use it, for reasons given.

BTW, during WW II the Swiss published a children's supplement to one of the then major daily newspapers. It Since that paper was called the 'National Newspaper', the children's supplement was called 'The Little Nazi', even during WW II. There's no subtlety involved in the titlle, its meaning being exactly what you would suspect. The 'National Newspaper' was then a left wing paper.

aks44
February 9th, 2008, 11:04 PM
being Swiss, my native language is not English.

However, I am something of a speed reader. I read standard English rather faster than it is being spoken.

I read 'funny' English at half that speed or slower. Given any choice, I will cheerfully ignore anything which is designed to make me read slower or which is geared towards being harder to understand.

Therefore I thank you very much in supporting 'proper' language.

I hardly could have explained better why so called "chat speak" makes my eyes bleed... ;)

Thanks.

cartisdm
February 10th, 2008, 07:55 AM
I might just be an idiot but what the heck is "u" and "r"? I couldn't even follow and it's late.....

LaRoza
February 10th, 2008, 08:07 AM
I might just be an idiot but what the heck is "u" and "r"? I couldn't even follow and it's late.....

r == "are"

u == "you"

It makes it hard to read, although some find it easier to sacrifice the "understanding' part of communication.

Balazs_noob
February 10th, 2008, 08:08 AM
you = u
are = r

i think native speakers use it because they
pronounce it similarly ...


oops to late

LaRoza
February 10th, 2008, 08:09 AM
you = u
are = r

i think native speakers use it because they
prounounce is similarly ...

Yes, that was another consideration I was thinking. Every languages says the letters differently.

cartisdm
February 10th, 2008, 08:15 AM
r == "are"

u == "you"

It makes it hard to read, although some find it easier to sacrifice the "understanding' part of communication.

Oh...wow...I knew that. Ok, I'm done...it's way too late

LaRoza
February 10th, 2008, 08:16 AM
Oh...wow...I knew that. Ok, I'm done...it's way too late

We are in the same time zone, it is early.

I am going to stay up tonight, and go to bed tomorrow night.

Shin_Gouki2501
February 10th, 2008, 11:31 AM
OMFG it was an accidential joke the "u" and "r" thing, people sure tend to talk alot about minor thigns whens it was acutally about programming in here ?!
;)

nvm -> back to topic

LaRoza
February 10th, 2008, 11:36 AM
OMFG it was an accidential joke the "u" and "r" thing, people sure tend to talk alot about minor thigns whens it was acutally about programming in here ?!
;)

nvm -> back to topic

Next stop, spelling.

Yes, readability of posts is important to programmers. Many members of this forum are not native english speakers, and will not know what you are saying. The only reason you use "u" and "r" that way is because English speakers pronounce them the same as the words. Other languages do not, and the meaning would be lost.

In Spanish, the word "y" means "and" is pronounced the same way English speakers say the letter "e". Spanish speakers prounce that character (e) the same way English speakers say "a". Use correct English when posting.