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View Full Version : Accusation of mod being unfairly selective, elitist and racist.



kvonb
January 20th, 2008, 08:41 AM
So why hasn't pricechild closed this thread down then?

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=647847

This is 4 pages of "foreign" language that has gone completely unchecked!

There could be any number of blasphemous, or even really naughty words being used!!!!!!

I can hear the answer already: Oh, but that's just a game!

Nah, that don't cut it buddy, pricechild's attack on the original OP's thread was selective and elitist, which means racist, pure and simple.

Racism starts as a game too.

PriceChild
January 20th, 2008, 01:23 PM
These posts have been copied from this thread (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=621469).

I think that calling me racist is totally unfounded, unacceptable, offensive and hurtful. I have given you the Forums CoC (guidelines/rules) and explained the reasoning behind it.

I would like to mention that mods are not all seeing. "But someone else did it!" is not a valid excuse. It might just mean that no-one's seen it. A lot of our activities on the forums are acting on the many post reports from other members.

matthew
January 20th, 2008, 04:08 PM
1) for the sake of staff and admins who want to see it, I moved the original posts (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=673029) to the jail.

2) the manner in which the OP chose to make his comments is unfortunate and unappreciated. They were made in a very demeaning and accusing tone and they singled out one specific staff person. That was uncalled for and not necessary.

3) Was the forums policy on English only being applied inconsistently? Maybe. Who cares? Furthermore, it is very simple to convert binary to text, and I am going to take a wild guess that the posts in the thread in question are all easily converted to English. If you would like to do so, you may report any post that contains a message that uses inappropriate language. I know many of the primary participants in that thread, and I know they would do the same thing, so I am quite sure you will not find one. Really, though, I think this has nothing to do with the real foundation for your comment(s), but since you have not yet been forthcoming in expressing the real problem, I have no clue what that might be.

I know that PriceChild is not a racist. The accusation is unfounded and rude. Whatever your problem is with him, you are using this as an excuse to cause trouble. Please stop.

If you have a real issue you would like to discuss, please feel free to bring it up.

kvonb
January 20th, 2008, 07:47 PM
These posts (as long as they remain unedited by the forum moderators or staff) are my reasons for accusing Mr pricechild of racist behaviour.

And after seeing the title he gave my "complaining" post,
Wah! PriceChild isn't doing things exactly as I want him to and so I'm going to whine found here:
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=673029

I will also add childish to that list of accusations.

Evidence

1. http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=621469

This thread was running along smoothly, no complaints, for 12 posts, then Mr pricechild drops in and announces that speaking in a non-english language is against forum rules, for seemingly no apparent reason.

2. http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=621469

This thread was then started to question that behaviour, and subsequently yielded the following replies by Mr pricechild:

a.
This forum is English speaking.

There are subforums for LoCo channels available on request.b.
There are many reasons for requesting only English on the main forums... one big one being "how do the mods know you're not attacking other users in a language they don't understand"c.

How do I know what you just said isn't defamatory, offensive etc. etc. etc. ?

The rule on languages is not there to prevent english speaking people being excluded, it is there so that the forum can be managed effectively. This is why subforums with moderators speaking the native language are permitted to use that language.
Then a day or so later I discovered this thread:

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=647847

which made me ask myself why Mr pricechild didn't have the same objections. seeing as it is written completely in a "foreign" language, and surely conforms to his objections stated in points 2a, 2b, and 2c above.

Now apart from the glaringly obvious bias shown there, given that both of those threads are NOT in the main forum, but in the Community Cafe, I am personally offended by the reply Mr pricechild gave at 2c. Namely the sentence
This is why subforums with moderators speaking the native language are permitted to use that languageIn my book, "permitted to use their own language" is an extremely racist comment.

I have no idea how the law works in your part of the world, but in Australia racism is not racism until someone who is offended by seemingly racist behaviour complains about it, and it is discussed between the parties and settled, or is reported to the authorities who will then sort it out legally.

That particular sentence, along with Mr pricechild's decision to "warn" against using a particular language, while ignoring other glaringly similar examples, is offensive to me, and I label that racist behaviour.

I believe Mr pricechild made a gross error in judgement singling out the original thread, furthermore I believe that judgement was based on a racist premise, and I wish to formally complain about it.

If Mr pricechild cannot prove that he acted without prejudice, I would like to suggest that he immediately apologise to me and the people in the original thread, both personally and publicly, and his position as an ubuntuforums administrator be reviewed.

If this complaint is not taken seriously and simply dismissed, I will be writing an official complaint to Canonical Ltd.

Yours faithfully,

Kevin F Behringer (kvonb)

KiwiNZ
January 20th, 2008, 08:16 PM
I will look into this.

Now calm down and cease the contiinued racist accusations at staff . You have made your point .

matthew
January 20th, 2008, 08:22 PM
These posts (as long as they remain unedited by the forum moderators or staff) are my reasons for accusing Mr pricechild of racist behaviour.

And after seeing the title he gave my "complaining" post, found here:
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=673029

I will also add childish to that list of accusations.That one was my fault. I was having an unprofessional (yes, rather childish) moment and made a poor choice. I have edited the thread title to "user complaint". I take full responsibility for my silliness and I apologize.


Evidence

1. http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=621469

This thread was running along smoothly, no complaints, for 12 posts, then Mr pricechild drops in and announces that speaking in a non-english language is against forum rules, for seemingly no apparent reason.I have read through the entire thread.


2. http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=621469

This thread was then started to question that behaviour, and subsequently yielded the following replies by Mr pricechild:

a. b. c.
Then a day or so later I discovered this thread:

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=647847

which made me ask myself why Mr pricechild didn't have the same objections. seeing as it is written completely in a "foreign" language, and surely conforms to his objections stated in points 2a, 2b, and 2c above.

Now apart from the glaringly obvious bias shown there, given that both of those threads are NOT in the main forum, but in the Community Cafe, I am personally offended by the reply Mr pricechild gave at 2c. Namely the sentence In my book, "permitted to use their own language" is an extremely racist comment.I disagree with your assessment. I read through the entire thread multiple times. PriceChild posted in a factual, calm manner. Saying someone is permitted to do something in a location where that permission has been granted is not racist in any way that I can see. I think you are reading into the phrase, perhaps due to a personal history (outside these forums?) of dealing with racist attitudes, a history that is likely real and painful. I can sympathize with that, but I don't believe there was any racist intent, nor do I believe the actions were racist.

The only "obvious bias" that I see here is one that is coded into the forums' rules, which require posts to be made in English, simply because that is the language of these forums, which are designed for worldwide communication across cultural and national borders. For better or for worse, English is the defacto language of the internet, and the main language of the main constituency of these forums.

We do, however, have several local community (LoCo) forums that use other languages. This is something we are thrilled to host and which have people involved in them with whom we are honored to be connected. These were not made as a concession by self-righteous, ethnocentric bigots, trying to keep the lowly masses content. The LoCo forums and teams are valuable parts of the Ubuntu community.

The reason we restrict non-English languages to those parts of the forums is because those locations are the only places where people using languages other than English are likely to find people with whom they can communicate. What PriceChild gave as a reason was not inaccurate, but it was incomplete. If you reread his statement, that fact is clearly implied. "There are many reasons for requesting only English on the main forums... one big one being..."


I have no idea how the law works in your part of the world, but in Australia racism is not racism until someone who is offended by seemingly racist behaviour complains about it, and it is discussed between the parties and settled, or is reported to the authorities who will then sort it out legally.

That particular sentence, along with Mr pricechild's decision to "warn" against using a particular language, while ignoring other glaringly similar examples, is offensive to me, and I label that racist behaviour.

I believe Mr pricechild made a gross error in judgement singling out the original thread, furthermore I believe that judgement was based on a racist premise, and I wish to formally complain about it.

If Mr pricechild cannot prove that he acted without prejudice, I would like to suggest that he immediately apologise to me and the people in the original thread, both personally and publicly, and his position as an ubuntuforums administrator be reviewed.

If this complaint is not taken seriously and simply dismissed, I will be writing an official complaint to Canonical Ltd.As I read your threat I have come to the conclusion that we are not likely to agree on this.

Please file your complaint with whomever you wish to file it.

In general, the next level above this location (the forums' Resolution Center) would be the Forum Council (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ForumCouncil), followed by the Ubuntu Community Council (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncil).

EDIT: Kiwi posted while I was composing this. You have my opinion. I will let him look into the matter as well and he can let us know if he sees things differently.

KiwiNZ
January 20th, 2008, 08:25 PM
question , Kvonb please explain how wrtitting in machine code is racists?

If it is ,then all programming must cease immediately?

kvonb
January 20th, 2008, 09:41 PM
question , Kvonb please explain how wrtitting in machine code is racists?

If it is ,then all programming must cease immediately?

That is not the point of my complaint.

The point is that it is also in a "non-english" language, and can not be understood by a "layman" without it being translated.

People are posting and communicating in a non-english language, coding is not communicating between members of an online forum, and in that particular thread the posters are not coding, they are communicating in a "foreign" language, something that pricechild has already pointed out is against forum policy.

So why does the binary post warrant being left alone, and the other one attacked?

The definition of "foreign language" in this case (provided by the forum rules) is "non-english", therefore binary code is by your own rules, a "foreign language".

kvonb
January 20th, 2008, 09:55 PM
Furthermore, I did not have the intent to threaten in my earlier post, I was simply trying to make my seriousness clear on the points I brought up.

It is very easy to simply dismiss these things rather than take them seriously, and that was not the path I wanted to go down.

matthew
January 20th, 2008, 10:04 PM
Furthermore, I did not have the intent to threaten in my earlier post, I was simply trying to make my seriousness clear on the points I brought up.

It is very easy to simply dismiss these things rather than take them seriously, and that was not the path I wanted to go down.I am glad to hear that threatening was not your intent.

I understand that you feel this issue deeply and that you are being serious in your complaint. I feel I have answered each point with equal seriousness.

Perhaps some of the other Admins will have time to comment soon.

kvonb
January 20th, 2008, 10:09 PM
.....Please file your complaint with whomever you wish to file it.

In general, the next level above this location (the forums' Resolution Center) would be the Forum Council (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ForumCouncil), followed by the Ubuntu Community Council (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncil).

That's fine, thankyou for that information.

I am not upto speed on all the rules and semantics of this site, I simply ask questions and try to help out other users when I can.

Now I know, I will respect and comply with those rules and order of doing things.

KiwiNZ
January 21st, 2008, 08:20 AM
I have looked at this .

Kvonb... Pricechild is not racist or elitest in his actions in the thread concerned. I have never witnessed anything from Pricechild that would be discribed as racist or elitest.

I have reopened the thread concerned .
The code of conduct clause 10 states

"Please try to write your posts in English unless you are participating in a Loco Forum, where you are permitted to use another language if it is in common use in that Loco Forum and understood by the Loco Forum staff. We have many users from many different countries that visit here and English is the common language of these forums. "

The code does not rule out the use of other languages. Also binary is code that is understood by many and transcends cultures .

kvonb
January 21st, 2008, 09:38 AM
So the consensus is this as I understand it:

1. Pricechild was simply enforcing the policy of the forum.

2. Special permission is required to speak a language other than English, unless there is a "special" room for doing so.

3. The definition of "non-english language" is completely at the discretion of the forum moderators.


OK, let me give you a quick scenario of why this "English only" policy (which is by association, also the policy of Canonical Ltd) is in my belief inherently racist:

I start a Linux users group (in Australia for arguments sake), and several hundred people turn up.

Most would be English speaking, but as Australia is a multi cultural society, several Vietnamese Australians turn up and are welcomed as part of this new "community".

These Vietnamese Australians start talking between themselves in Vietnamese.

I then approach these people and tell them "Sorry, you are not permitted to speak Vietnamese, unless I supply a person who I trust to supervise you, because for all I know you could be swearing and making fun of the English speakers here".

How long do you think my user group would last?

I can estimate that I would be closed down and facing charges of racism within a week.

This is unacceptable social behavior in most civilised societies, and I would expect nothing less form an online community, especially one that supposedly embraces diversity and "freedom".

It would seem that "freedom" in this case simply means "freedom to do as we tell you".


So with that in mind, I hereby publicly apologise to pricechild for labelling him a racist, as he was simply "doing his job".

A term some people will be familiar with from recent events in history.

Telling people which language they can or cannot speak, is in my opinion, both insulting and racist.

Furthermore, I wish to disassociate myself from ubuntuforums.org, Ubuntu Linux, and also Canonical Ltd, as I cannot bring myself to be associated with a group or organisation that promotes segregation and racism.

I request that you remove any and all material from the forum that I have contributed over the years, and henceforth remove my account forthwith.

KiwiNZ
January 21st, 2008, 09:48 AM
Okay you have an ability to see things in only one way .Did you not see this bit of the Code of Conduct ..."Please try to write your posts in English"

Again it says PLEASE TRY TO WRITE ENGLISH.....

But no more on that .

If you no longer wish to participate in these forums , that is your choice. Sad but I accept your choice, but please do not call the other members here racist when you do not back your accusations with eveidence. Also if you had read the Code of Conduct and forum FAQ you would have read that we do not delete accounts etc.

matthew
January 21st, 2008, 09:56 AM
So the consensus is this as I understand it:

1. Pricechild was simply enforcing the policy of the forum.He didn't even actively enforce it, he merely informed users in the thread as to what that policy is so as to prevent any problems in the future. No posts were edited or removed, and no official warnings or infractions were given.

EDIT: I was mistaken on part of this answer. Apparently some posts were edited and at least one infraction was given. Everything else I said applies. My apologies for the errors. I found out when I received this PM
btw I did edit posts and issue a couple of warnings after my suggestions in the thread went unheeded.


2. Special permission is required to speak a language other than English, unless there is a "special" room for doing so.That's a bit overstated and pointed, but the basic idea is that there are places in the forums where the use of languages other than English are not merely permitted, but actively encouraged. In other areas, we have requested that users please use English for the sake of communicating with as wide of an audience as possible, and to prevent as many misunderstandings as possible.


3. The definition of "non-english language" is completely at the discretion of the forum moderators.No.

The definition of non-English language is any tongue used to communicate that is not English.

That definition excludes codes and encryption forms, they are not languages, they are a means of obscuring language, but the language of communication itself still remains...your objection to the use of binary was rejected on that grounds...well, that and the facts that binary is really, really simple to change to ascii, and that every tested message in the binary thread was posted in English, using language that is appropriate and well within the guidelines of the Forums CoC.


OK, let me give you a quick scenario of why this "English only" policy (which is by association, also the policy of Canonical Ltd) is in my belief inherently racist:I read it. Your analogy is flawed. The people in your LUG would all be in the same room, able to read one another's body language, gestures and facial expressions. Furthermore, it seems appropriate to presume that they would not be attempting to give presentations (which is what the equivalent of publicly readable posts would be in your analogy) in a language of a minority. If you were invited to give a public speech or presentation, or to sit on a panel at a conference, or even ask that panel a question while attending a conference, you would reasonably be expected to do so in the language in which the conference was being held.

Forum (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=forum) (dictionary.com): 3.an assembly, meeting place, television program, etc., for the discussion of questions of public interest.

This is a much better analogy.


Furthermore, I wish to disassociate myself from ubuntuforums.org, Ubuntu Linux, and also Canonical Ltd, as I cannot bring myself to be associated with a group or organisation that promotes segregation and racism.

I request that you remove any and all material from the forum that I have contributed over the years, and henceforth remove my account forthwith.Regrettably, we are not able to fulfill your request. We do not remove accounts or posts. If you would like your personal account data removed from your account, I can do that for you.