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yatt
January 17th, 2008, 09:54 PM
This was posted on another forum I frequent sometime last night. I am not going to link the forum, as its own user base is enough to crash the server, it does not need a bunch of Ubuntu people going in to read the thread. Anyways, it is a statement that I tend to agree with. Before I go into detail, I am going to give some back story.

While the forum, is not even about computing, it typically has at least one computer related thread going at any particular time. The forum is actually about politics. However, there is enough of a technically inclined people, that you can post something to do with computers and get a discussion going. Help threads also pop up. This was one of them. The person was taking a class to learn how to use Adobe Photoshop. However, he experienced a noticeable lag when making a large change to the image. His computer was reasonable enough itself, so it was not like he needed more ram or a better graphics card. It was definitely a software issue.

Not even ten posts into the thread, a Linux Missionary arrived. He directed the person to http://www.ubuntu.com/ and told him to use Linux. He continued by telling the person not to confine themselves to a proprietary POS like Photoshop and should instead use the Gimp. He told the person to show up to a class about Photoshop, with the Gimp. This turned out not to be a very good solution. When the OP said it was a Photoshop course, he did not mean an advanced raster graphics editing course. He was there to learn the features and capabilities of PS -- including the ones that no one else has, and no one actually uses. Of course none of the Linux missionaries cared. They just when on yelling how great open source is; how evil Microsoft is; and how the problem is not that Linux doesn't run PS, but that PS does not run on Linux. It wasn't until about fifty or so posts later, actually made an effort to resolve the issue. It turned out that the person never installed an driver for their graphics card, and just used the default Windows one. He was the one who posted this thread's title.

This is not a stand out case either. Most any time the word computer comes up, a super majority of Linux users go into missionary mode and try to tally a convert. They have really gotten pretty good at hijacking computer threads like this. Nor is this the only forum where this is the case. It seems, the only place where people won't actively try to convert you is on a forum where you are assumed to be using Linux (ie here, or the compiz forums). Even in real life this is the case. While the percentage of active preachers is much lower, there are some people who make it their personal goal to get everyone in the CS department to use Linux.

I personally do not like this. It makes the rest of us look like tools. That is not an image I want trusted upon me. If I look like a tool, it should be my own doing. I look like a tool often enough on my own.

[/rant]

Lord DarkPat
January 17th, 2008, 09:58 PM
It's like saying he likes the sea but not the fish(or something similar, like I like the restaurant but not the waiters[?])

tech9
January 17th, 2008, 10:01 PM
It's like saying he likes the sea but not the fish(or something similar, like I like the restaurant but not the waiters[?])

+ 1
completely pointless random rant & waste of time to read!!!

SZF2001
January 17th, 2008, 10:03 PM
Being a former Mormon, I despise Missionaries, rather they be religious or tech savy people. No, I'm not interested in your product, your just making me NOT want to use your stuff!

~LoKe
January 17th, 2008, 10:03 PM
I don't use Linux for its community, so to be honest, I couldn't really care less.

p_quarles
January 17th, 2008, 10:03 PM
Yeah, that's obnoxious. Sounds like this forum could use a bit more moderation. (the other forum, not "this" this forum)

Steveway
January 17th, 2008, 10:04 PM
They just when on yelling how great open source is; how evil Microsoft is; and how the problem is not that Linux doesn't run PS, but that PS does not run on Linux.
-It's called stating the obvivious. ;)
Well my view on this is that if Windows was as good as Linux then the Windows people would do the same and try to convert us.
Don't prejudice a group of people based on the loudest of them!

AaronMiller
January 17th, 2008, 10:04 PM
Its not a useless rant its valid. Often times users get caught up in their own quests to convert people and dont focus on what their users actually want. Im guilty of this myself at times

aysiu
January 17th, 2008, 10:04 PM
So a few vocal, overevangelistic, and extremely active Linux users give us all a bad name? I don't see why they should have that power, but I guess they do. Oh, well. All I can say is that we're not all like that. We are diverse community, and some parts just stand out more than others (either for being controversial or being more visible).

voteforpedro36
January 17th, 2008, 10:06 PM
...That was, in all honesty, a waste of my time. :(

Tristam Green
January 17th, 2008, 10:07 PM
It makes him also look like a tool for taking the word of some opposition against Photoshop as Gospel.

a) It's a beginning PS class; he should have more gumption than to show up with a different software.
b) I wonder what face the instructor made when the kid says "but some Linux guys said it's better than PS!" (Note: probably a reply like "this isn't a [expletive here] GIMP class, it's Photoshop-101").

While it's unsurprising that some folks harped in on how much greater *buntu is against Windows, it's even less surprising that there was someone silly enough to take it entirely at face-value without any research or instruction, just because he wanted to go against the grain.

edit: Likewise, I'm sure he took the "linux rox windoze sux" battlecry as the law because "my Photoshop doesn't work correctly; it *must* be the OS's fault, because there's NO WAY I could have forgotten something to install (like a driver!)"

p_quarles
January 17th, 2008, 10:07 PM
+ 1
completely pointless random rant & waste of time to read!!!
Don't be silly. The OP was making a valid point: the answer to the question "how do I get Photoshop working" is not "use something else." It really is an obnoxious attitude, and I wish people would avoid that manner of "helping" people.

lespaul_rentals
January 17th, 2008, 10:08 PM
Yes, I definitely agree with you. Linux evangelists are everywhere, and let's face it...Linux will not sprinkle magic dust on your computer problems and make them go away.

Mithrilhall
January 17th, 2008, 10:08 PM
The funny thing about this rant is that you can swap Windows for Linux and the same thing happens.

How many times have you seen a discussion that went along the lines of "I hope so & so ports so & so to linux" and then the Windows fanboy hops in saying, "stop running **** Linux and run a real OS"?

potrick
January 17th, 2008, 10:11 PM
I think he's got something worthwhile to say. We shouldn't be spending out time presenting Linux as the solution to all computer problems--it's not. We should be spending out time creating a product and a community as inviting as possible. If that doesn't attract people, no amount of missionary threads will help: it will just bug people.

DrMega
January 17th, 2008, 10:12 PM
+ 1
completely pointless random rant & waste of time to read!!!

I fully agree. However it was entertaining, and sadly it is very believable.

There is a section on this very forum that asks us all to post up our experiences about Ubuntu. Here's one of my postings.

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=636770

Basically I found a couple of problems in Gutsy that I never had in Dapper, so I said so for the benefit of any developers that might have been reading the feedback, in the hope that the issues would be ironed out at some point.

Almost immediately, people piled on to tell me that Gutsy is great (I agree with that) and that it was entirely my fault that I had encountered problems and I should have stuck with Dapper if it worked for me etc etc etc.:)

Not all users are like that though, and I think mostly we are a nice bunch:)

yatt
January 17th, 2008, 10:19 PM
Yeah, that's obnoxious. Sounds like this forum could use a bit more moderation. (the other forum, not "this" this forum)
I think it is due to the mods being rather unsavvy, so they rely more on users to identify spam. Allot of people will never touch that report button.

-It's called stating the obvivious. ;)
Well my view on this is that if Windows was as good as Linux then the Windows people would do the same and try to convert us.
Don't prejudice a group of people based on the loudest of them!It may be obvious, but it was also completely irrelevant to the thread. The person was looking for help, and that wasn't it.

tech9
January 17th, 2008, 10:20 PM
Don't be silly. The OP was making a valid point: the answer to the question "how do I get Photoshop working" is not "use something else." It really is an obnoxious attitude, and I wish people would avoid that manner of "helping" people.

please keep your comments to yourself...

They are not appreciated!

SZF2001
January 17th, 2008, 10:24 PM
please keep your comments to yourself...

They are not appreciated!

You've got to be kiddiing... right?

days_of_ruin
January 17th, 2008, 10:28 PM
On the other side there are probably just as many people who
can't help but talk about how great they think photoshop is
and how much they don't like gimp.

Either way its the forums fault for not having good moderators(a problem 99% of all forum have, this forum being an exception)

DrMega
January 17th, 2008, 10:31 PM
please keep your comments to yourself...

They are not appreciated!

Who says? I think p_quarles made a perfectly valid point.

days_of_ruin
January 17th, 2008, 10:34 PM
I think just telling everyone to use linux is counterproductive
since linux is not meant for people who aren't computer savvy.

yatt
January 17th, 2008, 10:38 PM
The funny thing about this rant is that you can swap Windows for Linux and the same thing happens.

How many times have you seen a discussion that went along the lines of "I hope so & so ports so & so to linux" and then the Windows fanboy hops in saying, "stop running **** Linux and run a real OS"?Quite true. Not that it makes us any better for doing so.

dgray_from_dc
January 17th, 2008, 10:43 PM
The funny thing about this rant is that you can swap Windows for Linux and the same thing happens.

How many times have you seen a discussion that went along the lines of "I hope so & so ports so & so to linux" and then the Windows fanboy hops in saying, "stop running **** Linux and run a real OS"?

Excellent point.

When I encourage people to try Linux, that's all I do, encourage them to try it that's it. As much as Windows frustrates me, most people can't tell the difference between an OS and an app and aren't ready for most distros. We can't try to shove the bliss that is Linux down their throats, that's what the MS-machine does. Enlighten them and allow them to come to us.

yatt
January 17th, 2008, 10:43 PM
On the other side there are probably just as many people who
can't help but talk about how great they think photoshop is
and how much they don't like gimp.

Either way its the forums fault for not having good moderators(a problem 99% of all forum have, this forum being an exception)I don't think it is solely the mods fault. The mods can only do something after the problem has happened, and try to squash it before it spreads. They can reduce the damage, not solve the problem.

They're somewhat like anti-virus.

matthew
January 17th, 2008, 11:00 PM
You know, if you didn't hang out in other forums, you wouldn't have that sort of problem. ;)

(That was a joke, people, no mean comments, please.)




Really, I think this sort of thing applies in many areas of life; politics, religion, and yes, OS evangelism... Please don't force your agenda into a conversation where it doesn't belong. If I want your opinion on these topics, I'll ask. If I'm not asking, or at least talking about something similar and genuinely related, please don't push me toward something I'm not expressing an interest in...you will only make me less likely to develop a real interest, and you might make me into a fierce opponent instead of blissfully apathetic or ignorant on the subject.

bufsabre666
January 17th, 2008, 11:29 PM
i love the linux users at this forum, theyre always helpful nice and funny

but i understand at other places they all seem to have a holier than thou attitude

Cavalryman
January 17th, 2008, 11:39 PM
I got accused of proselytizing on another forum when I encouraged the original poster to ditch Windows and change to Linux. The thing is, the original post was all about how his computer was eaten up with viruses and malware and had crashed. I didn't think I was being a missionary -- I was giving him good advice.

karellen
January 17th, 2008, 11:43 PM
-It's called stating the obvivious. ;)
Well my view on this is that if Windows was as good as Linux then the Windows people would do the same and try to convert us.
Don't prejudice a group of people based on the loudest of them!

the windows people don't need to convert "us" or anybody else because they're not interested in it. for them the pc and the os on top of it is merely a tool for acomplishing a task. the task is important, not the tool. "what", not "how"...
my $0.02

bufsabre666
January 17th, 2008, 11:44 PM
I got accused of proselytizing on another forum when I encouraged the original poster to ditch Windows and change to Linux. The thing is, the original post was all about how his computer was eaten up with viruses and malware and had crashed. I didn't think I was being a missionary -- I was giving him good advice.

how dare you recommend a reasonable alternative that could qualm those issues you evil person you

billgoldberg
January 17th, 2008, 11:44 PM
I usually don't do this. I actually dislike doing this.

But when someone on a forum (not this one) or in real live askes for the 100th time how to remove this virus, why his computer is that slow, how come his pc crashes, ... I tell them there is another option available --> linux.

I however always first try to solve the windows problem, and add the linux thing to the bottom of the post.

This week I tried to convert my brother in law.

I have installed windows xp 4 times in 2 months. Have been to his house dozen of time because all of his browsers were redirected to fake anti-virus or porn sites. Have been there even more times because his pc was spitting out errors and some programs wouldn't start. I told him to give the live cd a spin and dumped it on his desk.

Saying to use linux to someone (when necessary) is actually doing them a favor. Or do you think those people like not being able to use there computers decently because windows related stuff?

aysiu
January 17th, 2008, 11:49 PM
There is a big difference between making people aware of alternatives existing and shoving those alternatives down their throats.

Just saying, "Have you thought about trying Linux?" is different from "Why would you use that POS operating system Windows anyway. Use Linux!"

You also have to consider that sometimes people use Windows with good reason--usually for a Windows-only application or for familiarity's sake.

If they want to avoid viruses and malware, just tell them to use a limited user instead of administrator account and never install anything.

original_jamingrit
January 17th, 2008, 11:56 PM
There is a big difference between making people aware of alternatives existing and shoving those alternatives down their throats.

Just saying, "Have you thought about trying Linux?" is different from "Why would you use that POS operating system Windows anyway. Use Linux!"

You also have to consider that sometimes people use Windows with good reason--usually for a Windows-only application or for familiarity's sake.

If they want to avoid viruses and malware, just tell them to use a limited user instead of administrator account and never install anything.

I agree. Saying "You ought to use Linux" and "You ought to consider using Linux" are two completely different things. When it comes to Internet communities, you ought to be careful about what you write.

Sorry, you ought to consider being careful about what write. ;)

definition
January 17th, 2008, 11:58 PM
You're at home here friend. We're all happy windows users. You're most welcome. :D

Jose Catre-Vandis
January 17th, 2008, 11:58 PM
I don't think this thread would have been started if ubuntuforums had used phpbb3 instead of vBulletin :D

(now is that satire, irony, sarcasm, parody or wit??)

popch
January 18th, 2008, 12:02 AM
I don't think this thread would have been started if ubuntuforums had used phpbb3 instead of vBulletin :D

(now is that satire, irony, sarcasm, parody or wit??)

No.

bufsabre666
January 18th, 2008, 12:03 AM
No.

+1

matthew
January 18th, 2008, 12:04 AM
Just saying, "Have you thought about trying Linux?" is different from "Why would you use that POS operating system Windows anyway. Use Linux!"+1


I agree. Saying "You ought to use Linux" and "You ought to consider using Linux" are two completely different things. When it comes to Internet communities, you ought to be careful about what you write.

Sorry, you ought to consider being careful about what write. ;)+1


I don't think this thread would have been started if ubuntuforums had used phpbb3 instead of vBulletin :D

(now is that satire, irony, sarcasm, parody or wit??)LOL

Let's not go there... :) (Oh, and we did start with phpBB, not v3, but anyway...vBulletin suits our needs better (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=176622).) Okay, moving on...if anyone has comments on this topic can go in the linked thread instead of here, where we are both off topic. ;)

inversekinetix
January 18th, 2008, 01:33 AM
I usually don't do this. I actually dislike doing this.

But when someone on a forum (not this one) or in real live askes for the 100th time how to remove this virus, why his computer is that slow, how come his pc crashes, ... I tell them there is another option available --> linux.

I however always first try to solve the windows problem, and add the linux thing to the bottom of the post.

This week I tried to convert someone.

I have installed windows xp 4 times in 2 months. Have been to his house dozen of time because all of his browsers were redirected to fake anti-virus or porn sites. Have been there even more times because his pc was spitting out errors and some programs wouldn't start. I told him to give the live cd a spin and dumped it on his desk.

Saying to use linux to someone (when necessary) is actually doing them a favor. Or do you think those people like not being able to use there computers decently because windows related stuff?



edit: this is not intended to insult the person you tried to convert or make any insinuation as to their character at all. If it is read that way it was not intended. It is a generalized response.


If someone crashed their ford 4 times in 2 months would you recommend they drive a volvo? Similarly if you had to explain how to remove dirt from clothes 100 times etc etc, wouldn't it be more likely that there was an underlying problem with the person rather than the task they're doing?

I don't understand why people have to make pitiable jabs at windows in order to elevate linux. If have to explain the same thing 3 times to someone because they REFUSE to learn, I start to get a little short on patience.

Is someone incapable of safely browsing on a windows PC any less likely to enter their details into a phishing site displayed via linux?

I mean, come on, is it the OS or the person that causes them to open i_love_you.exe from sender supervixenlucy @ omgyoutheman.com
The weakest link in any OS is between the keyboard and the seat.

It's really tiresome seeing this kind of A>B all the time, i thought it was about freedom of choice. I chose to use linux, it doesn't do what I need from it, fortunately I have the choice of something else. This is because i am INFORMED, i know and understand the pros and cons of each and make the choice based on that, not because I saw some FUD in a forum that claimed someone who knows someone else used something and it was ssoooo bad and they got this and they had that happen.

Someone on this forum has a sig along the lines of
'give a man a fish and feed him for a day, teach him to fish and feed him for a lifetime'

I'd like to add to that,

'give a man a net, teach him to fish and he can eat for a lifetime, if he can't catch any fish, don't blame the net, give him a spear and teach him to hunt'

20thCenturyBoy
January 18th, 2008, 01:52 AM
please keep your comments to yourself...

They are not appreciated!

This kind of behavior is even more obnoxious...

While I like feeling like I'm able to go to a more "tight knit" group for help (here and other Linux hot spots), I try not to promote it as much. I tell people about Linux but I never tell them they should use it. Many times their own curiosity does that for them...

I see those kinds of people as well. They're annoying, I completely agree.

Even more annoying is the fact that they exist in everything. Some people always true to enforce their will on others. I'm all about supporting your views, but theres got to be a line somewhere.

Pethegreat
January 18th, 2008, 02:33 AM
I think much of the flack directed at windows is not deserved. I would like to see somone run microsoft and try to fix all the issues that come up. They are victems of their own sucess.

I think fourms like this should try to help anyone regardless of OS. Having a Linux forum help a windows user will make Linux users look good. If people see that we are all kind and helpful, then they may jump into Linux. Evangelizing Linux will just make people think that we are a cult of computer users worshiping a penguin.

In some cases, I would not tell someone about alternatives. Linux still requires some computer skills or an intrest in learning. People who don't know anything about computers may hear "Use Linux" and try it. When they can't get things running Linux users get blamed for it.

If I ever tell anyone about Linux, I am going to tell them that there will be some learning to do. When I started using Linux, I knew I was going to have to learn some things.

inversekinetix
January 18th, 2008, 02:36 AM
Evangelizing Linux will just make people think that we are a cult of computer users worshiping a penguin.



brilliant, but it's not A penguin, it's THE penguin. ;-)

Dngrsone
January 18th, 2008, 03:38 AM
I think the original poster has a valid point, and I feel that those who castigated him, joking or not, did so in poor taste.

I notice that no one here called for moderator intervention in this thread, though some were all for over-moderating the other, unknown, forum. I find this contradiction disturbing, as well.

It is a simple fact of life that there are fan-boys (and girls) of all types out there that tend to make the subject of their fandom actually unappealing through their efforts.

It's also a fact of life that people act immaturely at times and many think that the anonymity of the intarweb gives them license to act as badly as they want.

Moderators are charged with ensuring that the users in the forums do not do things that are detrimental to the community. In most forums, they will not delete posts unless they are plainly offensive and/or inappropriate. It is the regular members of the community to do the most policing, and that is as it should be.

Your job, as a member of this or any other online community, whether it be as a mere user, a moderator, or even a n00b, is to counteract the ill effects of the fanboys and other 'evil' influences in the thread (and forums) by being helpful and welcoming to the person(s) asking for help.

In the case of this thread, the original poster was merely reporting events-- don't shoot the messenger.

aysiu
January 18th, 2008, 03:41 AM
I notice that no one here called for moderator intervention in this thread, though some were all for over-moderating the other, unknown, forum. I find this contradiction disturbing, as well. The way to "call[ ] for moderator intervention" is to click the REPORT button on a post and report it as somehow violating the Forum's Code of Conduct.

If you report it, we moderators can evaluate if something needs moderating and, if so, act on it.

p_quarles
January 18th, 2008, 03:43 AM
I notice that no one here called for moderator intervention in this thread, though some were all for over-moderating the other, unknown, forum. I find this contradiction disturbing, as well.
Well, first of all, neither you nor I know if anyone reported any posts in this thread. Second, matthew has clearly read this thread, and would have taken action if any was needed. Third, the thread on the other, unnamed forum was derailed by people making suggestions that amount to off-topic posts. So, I guess I just don't see the contradiction here.

Dngrsone
January 18th, 2008, 03:47 AM
I concede the point that there may have been posts reported in this thread of which I am unaware.

I must stand by my argument that there is not necessarily a problem with the other forum not being properly moderated or this one better moderated than any other.

saulgoode
January 18th, 2008, 04:23 AM
Far more contemptible than an advocate suggesting an unsolicited Open Source solution is the idea that one would condemn another's comments based upon a hearsay characterization of those alleged comments.

The way that the point of Tech9's post has been misinterpreted in this thread should serve as an admonition of accepting one person's interpretation of the comments made by others without having knowledge of the context -- or, in the case of the OP, the actual content -- of the thought being expressed.

inversekinetix
January 18th, 2008, 04:32 AM
I see this thread soon turning into a nasty flame war, can't we all agree to everyone having their own opinions and leave it at that. Nothing will be solved in a forum. The thread will at best get moved at worse get locked.

FuturePilot
January 18th, 2008, 04:32 AM
So a few vocal, overevangelistic, and extremely active Linux users give us all a bad name? I don't see why they should have that power, but I guess they do. Oh, well. All I can say is that we're not all like that. We are diverse community, and some parts just stand out more than others (either for being controversial or being more visible).

Exactly. All Linux users are certainly not like this.

johndc
January 18th, 2008, 04:53 AM
Its not a useless rant its valid. Often times users get caught up in their own quests to convert people and dont focus on what their users actually want. Im guilty of this myself at times

I think this is a common phenomenon, not unique to Linux users. On a certain photography forum I frequent, you often see the question "could someone help me solve a n*kon problem" answered with a response along the lines of "buy a "c*non" or vice-versa.

This is most unhelpful and completely dismisses the person asking the original question. If you don't have a constructive answer, you really shouldn't answer. At least not in a subject-specific forum.

On the other hand, it seems that the OP was referring to a question posted in more of an off-topic community forum, or at least an OT question in some other topical forum. In this case, one should be wary of ANY response, as that's not really the purpose of the group.

bomanizer
January 18th, 2008, 05:05 AM
.Linux will not sprinkle magic dust on your computer problems and make them go away.

I don't think any OS has that capability, there are always rough corners.

p_quarles
January 18th, 2008, 05:08 AM
I don't think any OS has that capability, there are always rough corners.
Well, AmigaOS actually did have the magic dust extension, but that's no longer supported.

Linuxratty
January 18th, 2008, 05:18 AM
Well, AmigaOS actually did have the magic dust extension, but that's no longer supported.

Well dang! i sure wish I'd KNOWN that!
](*,)

init1
January 18th, 2008, 05:20 AM
The funny thing about this rant is that you can swap Windows for Linux and the same thing happens.

How many times have you seen a discussion that went along the lines of "I hope so & so ports so & so to linux" and then the Windows fanboy hops in saying, "stop running **** Linux and run a real OS"?
That's happened to me online and off.

DrMega
January 23rd, 2008, 08:24 PM
I think much of the flack directed at windows is not deserved. I would like to see somone run microsoft and try to fix all the issues that come up. They are victems of their own sucess.

I disagree. Unix came long before Windows, and it had/has a solid rights management architecture, which it needed because there have been malicious attempts at sabotage, and negligence for much longer then there have been computers. MS made a decision to leave the entire OS wide open, and even when the massive onslaught of viruses and other malware began, they still left it wide open. It is only really since XP that they even began to think about any built in security.


Having a Linux forum help a windows user will make Linux users look good. If people see that we are all kind and helpful, then they may jump into Linux. Evangelizing Linux will just make people think that we are a cult of computer users worshiping a penguin

Absolutely. Although you do reach a point where you get bored of fixing the same computer for someone because the antivirus software you installed for them prevents them from using some dodgy "game" (trojan) they installed.


Linux still requires some computer skills or an intrest in learning. People who don't know anything about computers may hear "Use Linux" and try it. When they can't get things running Linux users get blamed for it.

If I ever tell anyone about Linux, I am going to tell them that there will be some learning to do. When I started using Linux, I knew I was going to have to learn some things.

I sort of agree and sort of disagree here. I think there is a learning curve for Windows, but most people don't notice because they eased into it over such a long time. I also think that a good Linux distro (like Ubuntu) is good for those that don't know what they're doing, as it stops you from accidentally doing something silly in most cases. I recently put it on my brother in law's machine. He is a computer novice. I showed him how to do what he needed to do and told him don't worry about busting it, if you accidentally do something remotely dodgy it will ask you for your password. If you see the password box and you don't know why, just cancel it.

CJ56
January 23rd, 2008, 08:50 PM
Would totally agree with DrMega's last point about the Linux learning curve - it tends to compress into a few months what you had to learn over (maybe) years with Window$.

I can remember getting the first family PC at the end of '95. Had to buy a walk-through instruction book just to learn about desktops, files, folders and all that. A bit later on I had to set up an internal modem (scary!) & a while after that I had to learn how to completely re-install an operating system after some nameless virus trashed Win 98 for me. A bit later on I even converted an old PC into a TV & music media centre which worked perfectly for a week before imploding & never working properly again.

So that's about 10 years on and off of getting to grips with Window$. Ubuntu & linux generally has been a (mostly highly satisfying) rollercoaster ride crammed into less than a year. No wonder I feel so very very old...

BigSilly
January 23rd, 2008, 09:13 PM
I agree with the OP though. There's definitely a very terrifying core group of people who by ranting and raving like loons do more harm than good. I think if my mate had approached me with a Linux CD and ranted on about politics and freedom and whatnot I wouldn't have even tried it. Linux users need not be freedom fighters in the hope it'll spread the word.

That said, it doesn't hurt to aid people's understanding a bit! Y'know.....gently....

justin whitaker
January 23rd, 2008, 09:14 PM
I've left Linux because of the Linux community more times than I care to remember.

The fact is, if I am really all about freedom and the commons that it entails, then I have a charge to treat each and every member of the commons with the sort of respect they are due.

That means:

You don't talk down to someone needing help.
You don't evangelize-you offer alternatives.
You don't get into flame wars with other members of the open source community.

Most vocal Linux proponents do not do that.

In fact, in their apparent need to have a religion to evangelize, they have taken on the trappings of open source as a religion, and seek to convert everyone whether it would work for them are not. This is computing, not Scientology.

Alternatively, some others have taken their apparent need to feel superior to other human beings, and have denigrated users of other versions of linux, or other operating systems, because they feel that they have found the proper way of doing things...like holy Linux crusaders.

Torvalds has made it very clear that Linux is open source because it is a better method of development. It is not a political statement, nor a religion.

I think that at the fringes of all groups, be they gamers, linux users, Christians, Muslims, Patriots fans, these sorts of people tend to spring up...and you need to continually fight against them.

Recent blogs have taken Ubuntu users and volunteers to task for being rude or incommunicative about issues with Ubuntu, some of which I have seen in these forums as well...even in this thread.

I was really hoping that Ubuntu was going to be a force to change the overall impression that Linux users are simply a bunch of wild eyed Microsoft hating communist evangelists, but it is starting to look like the more moderate elements are voting with their feet or keeping silent.

aysiu
January 23rd, 2008, 09:31 PM
I think it's important to recognize that every group has a diverse set of constituents.

You cannot dictate that Linux/open source is or is not a religion. Some of us will treat it as not a religion. Others will treat it as a religion. Linus Torvalds thinks open source is a better method of development. Richard Stallman thinks free software is a moral issue.

We all come to open source for different reasons and have different values. I'm not going to evangelize Linux, but I can only appeal to those who do evangelize to tone it down a little. Ultimately, it's up to them to behave how they want to behave.

Ultra Magnus
January 23rd, 2008, 10:16 PM
I don't think most linux users are that bad actually. There a specific things which seem to draw the more vocal people out but from my experience it mainly seems to be on issues like standards or when someone writes something deliberatly antagonising. i rarely come across sites where a random comment about computers has attracted "missionaries" to try and convert the poster if it is totally irrelevant and nothing to do with linux.

I think we're stereotyped as being semi-religious fanatics but when you look at other tech fan-boy groups - Apple, Sony and nintendo fan boys spring to mind, the number of linux users who go out of their way to be trolls when its none of their business is pretty small.

gvartser
January 23rd, 2008, 11:25 PM
I use linux when it suites my needs, not because my neighbor says its cool.

I also use windows when it suites my needs, and not because I'm forced to.

I also eat, drink and take a dump once in a while.

/g

SomeGuyDude
January 23rd, 2008, 11:30 PM
So a few vocal, overevangelistic, and extremely active Linux users give us all a bad name? I don't see why they should have that power, but I guess they do. Oh, well. All I can say is that we're not all like that. We are diverse community, and some parts just stand out more than others (either for being controversial or being more visible).

That's how it works. If out of 1000 people, there are 10 jerks who keep making asses of themselves, but they're the only ones who speak up... people are going to think that's how they all are.

The "vocal minority" defines a group because they're the "vocal" ones. I often worry that a lot of Linux users get too wrapped up not in the benefits of the OS itself, but in the fact that they think they're superior for rejecting Windows. It's like Apple fanboys only, sometimes, worse.

karellen
January 23rd, 2008, 11:51 PM
Linux zealots and evangelists should understand that using an OS doesn't give up the right to judge the others, doesn't make you smarter or "cooler". An OS is just a tool, for the vast majority of people. not an ideology. I keep the morality and ethics for higher (or more personal) purposes
my $0.02

Mit kebes
January 24th, 2008, 12:05 AM
I get his point about being overly Linux happy. I've mentioned my preference to linux occasionally but I'm carefull to not dump too much linux-love on one person at one time. If you try to make someone do or get something, it has an adverse reaction causing them to resist it. It's important to resist this.

KThrace
January 24th, 2008, 12:11 AM
There's nothing wrong with being happy about using Linux. Just make sure you've got some perspective about what's important in life, and for goodness sake, do NOT put people down for using Windows.

deltaprime
January 24th, 2008, 12:13 AM
stop hating around its pointless
DelTa

bwtranch
January 24th, 2008, 12:26 AM
I read this post because I thought that the poster would say something like we feel that we are smarter, smug, and better informed about computer usage than an average windows user. This person didn't say that and I am deeply disappointed..

I consider this thread SOLVED for lack of supporting evidence and it is a monumental waste of time. Goodnight Irene.

Jimmey
January 24th, 2008, 12:36 AM
I am a bit of an idiot like this sometimes - But most of the time, I'm doing it jokingly.

For example, if someone's relying on me for help with their windows machine, and I get frustrated because I can't find the answer to the questions they're asking, I might jokingly ask them what they're thinking of, using a hunk of crap O/S in the first place - Stuff like that. Usually, nothing serious.

Sometimes I can feel myself being, perhaps a bit forceful. I was pretty sick of trying to fix by mum's Windows computer all the time, because it was running disgustingly slowly on her fairly decent hardware, and I was the only one that realised that trying to make it run as quickly as it once had was like trying to bail out a sinking ship with a piece of Swiss cheese. So I took it upon myself to install another harddrive into her computer, on which Xubuntu 7.04 now resides.

Although my brother and sisters can actually get more use out of the computer now, and my mother always has the choice of Windows, I never actually got permission to do what I did, and in a way, I've forced Linux upon them.

I reckon that educating others about alternatives, and perhaps giving the odd push in the right direction here and there, can be helpful. It's just when people take it to far, and as other people have said, put ideology over practicality, that problems happen.

Hells_Dark
January 24th, 2008, 12:59 AM
Wait...
Is he saying that he doesn''t like linux users.. on an ubuntu forum ?

..well ^^'

bigbearomaha
January 24th, 2008, 05:22 AM
This is a comment seen on many forums. Someone decries the Linux evangelist and infers that said evangelists represent the entire user community.

One of the biggest issues I think to arise with Linux is that there is a social community developing along with the OS. Due to the 'sharing' nature of Linux and the GPL ( and other licenses similar) There is a 'camaraderie' that is built based on the distro one eventually chooses ( for those who choose only one distro) In the course of asking questions and searching a forum for help ( one hopes that people search the forums) people being the social animals we are, begin to develop social interactions and 'friendships) to stretch the term a bit) leading them discussions outside the technical arena which brought them to a given forum to begin with.

After getting used to discussing Linux in such a social manner, many people carry that habit to other forums, where perhaps the 'flow' of those other forums isn't quite that informal or tech/social oriented.

Then, all to often, it becomes a game of who can 'preach' louder. not advisable and certainly doesn't accomplish much good.

the linux 'community' is really a unique development in itself and will "mature" ( hopefully) as it grows.

Big Bear

swoll1980
January 24th, 2008, 06:02 AM
I agree with the poster while not all linux can have a label slapped on them there seems to be a large number of them that act like telemarketers popping up all over the place trying to ram this stuff down peoples throats. When I first started using linux I told some friends about it and they made fun of me saying that it was a cult and that I would start worshiping my computer. At first I didn't know what they were talking about but after spending some time in linux forums it became obvious that a lot of Linux users are a little over zelious in there recruiting methods. that being siad there a plenty of intelligent friendly helpful people as well. Unfortunately
It's the crazy linux is my god nut jobs that get noticed

LightB
January 24th, 2008, 08:33 AM
In some forums I use, lately I've seen more anti GPL things than anything, and thus anti linux, and also some praise of freebsd and such, due to the license. People talk a lot of silly stuff all the time on all fronts and about all topics, and opinions are like rectums. It doesn't affect much at all so why let it bother you? And users of something are not some kind of organization that gets bunched together and is responsible each others' actions.

SyCo123
January 24th, 2008, 08:30 PM
Person 1-"Excuse me could you tell me if it's possible to do foobar."

Person 2-"Why would you want to"
Person 3-"I don't do it like that, I have an infinitely superior method."

Person 1-"I'm sure thats great for you but I simply want to foobar."

Person 4-"I know how to do it like that but I oppose the very principle so I won't tell you"
Person 5-"by doing it that way you're killing kittens"
etc etc etc

Person 1 leaves and hates person's 2-5 and all they stand for.

Anyone else ever felt like person 1.

aysiu
January 24th, 2008, 08:37 PM
Person 1-"Excuse me could you tell me if it's possible to do foobar."

Person 2-"Why would you want to"
Person 3-"I don't do it like that, I have an infinitely superior method."

Person 1-"I'm sure thats great for you but I simply want to foobar."

Person 4-"I know how to do it like that but I oppose the very principle so I won't tell you"
Person 5-"by doing it that way you're killing kittens"
etc etc etc

Person 1 leaves and hates person's 2-5 and all they stand for.

Anyone else ever felt like person 1.
If foobar means log in as root, then I have no sympathy for person 1. There is no reason to log in as root in Ubuntu.

SomeGuyDude
January 24th, 2008, 08:54 PM
If foobar means log in as root, then I have no sympathy for person 1. There is no reason to log in as root in Ubuntu.

True story: for my entire first month of using Linux (years ago), I had no idea what the hell "root" meant. Is it any wonder I threw my old Red Hat discs away?

sanderella
January 24th, 2008, 09:48 PM
:( This is a sad little thread.

I love Linux and I love Linux users. I am quite evangelical about linux, and I do try to persuade my friends to try it. I think the point the original writer is making is that some people in the forums let their enthusiasm run ahead of their actual working knowledge. It's a case of being honest about what you really know, and not making exaggerated or unhelpful claims. :)
(I think:))

Amstell
January 25th, 2008, 01:35 AM
I've noticed that as well. I think thats what happens whenever a community like this gets all the open source BS in their head. I completely agree with it and use linux exclusively but it took a while to learn and research so I think people like to preach it. Thanks for the rant but I think it will always be like that. hell there are people who use windows and hate linux.

No really, there are. Peace

kool_kat_os
January 25th, 2008, 01:36 AM
heh

inversekinetix
January 25th, 2008, 02:45 AM
I've noticed that as well. I think thats what happens whenever a community like this gets all the open source BS in their head. I completely agree with it and use linux exclusively but it took a while to learn and research so I think people like to preach it. Thanks for the rant but I think it will always be like that. hell there are people who use windows and hate linux.

No really, there are. Peace


What a good point, the open source crusaders are the worst for me. How can everything proprietry be bad. It's really sad listening to people go on about open source and the evils of corporations like microsoft while theyre wearing branded clothing, eating farmed animals and leaving massive carbon footprints. I think it's ok to stand up for what you believe in, but to ram it down someones throat in respect to one area and then completely ignore it in others is the absolute pinnacle of hypocrisy.

There are lots of things 'wrong' in the world. Non FoSS material is pretty far down the list of them.

AnonCat
January 25th, 2008, 03:30 AM
You can find zealots in all walks of life. You shouldn't stereotype all Linux users as being like those people on that forum since, after all, you use Linux and you don't consider yourself to be like them. I've definitely seen my fair share of Windows and OS X zealots as well, but it'd be a mistake to think that all Windows and OS X users are like them. Same goes for Linux users.

saulgoode
January 25th, 2008, 03:40 AM
Person 1: How do I get to Shelbyville?
Person 2: You could take a bus. Or hail a cab. Or go to the airport.
Person 1: No. I have to drive there.
Person 3: Why do you have to drive to Shelbyville?
Person 1: What does that matter? I just have to go to Shelbyville.
Person 2: You have to drive to Shelbyville.
Person 3: Well, most people driving to Shelbyville on a Saturday afternoon are going to the flea market. But the flea market shut down last week and if that's the reason for your trip...
Person 1: If you must know, I am taking my car to the shop to have the oil changed.
Person 2: Ohhh... then I guess taking the bus or a cab won't really work.
Person 4: You could change the oil yourself and save a bundle.
Person 1: I don't want to change it myself.
Person 4: Fair enough. Just drive down this road until you get to Highway 99, take a left...
Person 1: No, no, NO. I don't want directions. Directions suck. You should draw me a map.
Person 3: My brother has a shop in Springfield and he recycles the used oil. I hear the Shelbyville shop dumps it in the river. I'd be more than happy to draw you a map to my brother's shop.
Person 1: I DON'T want to go Springield. You guys are all fanatics and I hate you.

SyCo123
January 25th, 2008, 04:10 AM
So even though you are prepared to draw a map and you know where the place is, you wont because you don't agree with the business practices of the establishment.


"Person 4-"I know how to do it like that but I oppose the very principle so I won't tell you"

I only had a few examples of what frustrates people and you managed to nail one of them. That is pretty funny dude.

(aysiu, you completely lost me mate, how did you get root from foobar. I was using it as a generic term where it's often used in programming to illustrate a concept without real values eg where $foo='bar')

Oh and just to clarify I love you all, deeply and one day, hope, I physically.

inversekinetix
January 25th, 2008, 04:45 AM
Person 1: How do I get to Shelbyville? ) (asks for help)



Person 2: You could take a bus. Or hail a cab. Or go to the airport. )(gives straightforward help)


Person 1: No. I have to drive there.) (asks for more specific help)


Person 3: Why do you have to drive to Shelbyville? )(gets involved in something nothing to do with them)


Person 1: What does that matter? I just have to go to Shelbyville.) ( points out the obvious, reitterates the first request for help)


Person 2: You have to drive to Shelbyville.) (makes a judgemental comment)


Person 3: Well, most people driving to Shelbyville on a Saturday afternoon are going to the flea market. But the flea market shut down last week and if that's the reason for your trip... )(again presumes someone elses reasons iin something completely unrelated to them)


Person 1: If you must know, I am taking my car to the shop to have the oil changed.) (pressured/antagonized into answering to receive simple help)


Person 2: Ohhh... then I guess taking the bus or a cab won't really work.) (fair comment)


Person 4: You could change the oil yourself and save a bundle. )(nice suggestion)


Person 1: I don't want to change it myself.) (fair point)


Person 4: Fair enough. Just drive down this road until you get to Highway 99, take a left...) (help as requested)


Person 1: No, no, NO. I don't want directions. Directions suck. You should draw me a map. )(schizophrenic like personality change: could be from being interrogated in the beginning or simply to bias this example)



Person 3: My brother has a shop in Springfield and he recycles the used oil. I hear the Shelbyville shop dumps it in the river. I'd be more than happy to draw you a map to my brother's shop.) (help offered but on specific terms))



Person 1: I DON'T want to go Springield. You guys are all fanatics and I hate you.)(more schizophrenia)




why could person one have just gotten the help they asked for?

saulgoode
January 25th, 2008, 04:48 AM
So even though you are prepared to draw a map and you know where the place is, you wont because you don't agree with the business practices of the establishment.

Businesses "don't agree" with the practice of giving away stuff without being compensated. I am no different; except that the compensation I desire in return for my efforts is not monetary. The compensation I seek is support for the things I believe.

I am no more willing to provide uncompensated assistance that encourages practices I don't agree with than a business is willing to provide their products or services free of cost. On what basis would have such an expectation?

SyCo123
January 25th, 2008, 06:17 AM
Great analysis of the conversation but don't get me wrong, I am in no way defending the person 1 in that conversation he strikes me as a bit of a turd and I agree there's a the bi polar direction change in attitude but that isn't a fair example of most users. He certainly needs some guidance on how to ask for help in a volunteer forum. But my point stands.

Person 1 in my example could be compared to an intimidated total linux noob. now they fear the blood of kittens may be on their hands.


Businesses "don't agree" with the practice of giving away stuff without being compensated. I am no different
You must be a lot of fun at Christmas.

I like to give stuff away. I've written an ebook on the Gimp it's freely available to anyone who wants it PM me and it's yours. I've 2 more on digital photography and Photoshop that have been well received by many photographers. It feels great to do something nice and expect nothing in return. I spend lots of time helping people with PHP issues and I appreciate a thank-you but thats all.

I you don't want to help in a post then stay out of it, no harm done. Posts with 0 responses garnish more interest then those with several responses. If you don't agree with the fundamentals of the person asking for help then PM them if you must but don't hijack their thread with your personal manifesto. It irritates the crap out of people and is counter productive to the very beliefs you are trying to encourage the adoption of.

People don't come here to listen to your beliefs. they come here for help. If you don't want to give help for personal reasons that is OK, really. You are under no obligation.

In your example both people became frustrated because of the lack of communication. Person 2 responded offering to help suggesting they had the necessary skills and knowledge. Person 1 didn't ask the right questions. Person 2 i.e. us knowledgeable helpers-out on the forums of this world have a duty to elicit the correct question and explain why we need the info. Otherwise frustration in both parties is inevitable. This was going nicely in your example until the schiz kicked in, in a rather atypical way.

Someone else's thread isn't the place mate, if you want to spread you beliefs then start a blog or something. If your beliefs hold up then it will become popular and you'll get you sought after gratification.

You want to see some effective people on a mission, try looking at.... missionaries. They have a message they do things people want like build schools and then work in their point along the lines of 'by the way I think this about (enter missionaries cause here)' not 'I'll do something for you on the condition you take on my beliefs.'. Look at the spread of religion in developing countries.

My wife is a non techy yoga teacher, I could no easier talk her into using Linux then bicycle to the moon. Recently her windows xp laptop started giving her problems, my laptop is running like a dream she watched over my shoulder for several months before inquiring about 'this Linux thing'. Recently she asked me to install it on hers,not even dual boot just straight up replace windows. No pressure, no sales, no ideological speeches, just a simple silent comparison of a failing OS and a reliable OS, It has sold itself because it is based on a solid ideology of its own, among other things, providing quality software.

I like using Linux it works well for me. I like to show other people the 'cool' things it can do. I like to talk up it's excellent features and describe my positive experiences. I try not to to jump on every opportunity to drive my point home. I try really hard not to put other peoples way of doing things down. This works for me, and my friends and loved ones are taking notice.

toupeiro
January 25th, 2008, 08:40 AM
If digital flaming could somehow be converted into BTU's, This thread could heat my home throughout the winter.


ooh, new project!

saulgoode
January 25th, 2008, 01:20 PM
Great analysis of the conversation but don't get me wrong, I am in no way defending the person 1 in that conversation he strikes me as a bit of a turd and I agree there's a the bi polar direction change in attitude but that isn't a fair example of most users. He certainly needs some guidance on how to ask for help in a volunteer forum. But my point stands.

I'm glad that for the most part you grasped the point I was attempting to convey. It was my intent to characterize a typical exchange when Linux "experts" are asked for their help.

I am a little surprised that you were so sympathetic to Person 2's behavior while the other two responders were viewed as "kicking in the schiz". The other two actually exhibited having more experience and knowledge of solutions -- yet Person 1 becomes obstinate and offended when a more complete description of the problem is requested by the very people whose help he seeks.



I like to give stuff away. I've written an ebook on the Gimp it's freely available to anyone who wants it PM me and it's yours. I've 2 more on digital photography and Photoshop that have been well received by many photographers. It feels great to do something nice and expect nothing in return. I spend lots of time helping people with PHP issues and I appreciate a thank-you but thats all.

Hey! I would like a book on GIMP. But I hate e-books. You should print out a copy and mail it to me. In fact, send me ten copies because I could sell them at the local coffee house...

Or perhaps maybe since it is your stuff you are giving away, you should have some say about how that stuff is provided? Yes, that sounds fair: you provide the stuff, you set the terms; not the person receiving the stuff. If someone asks me for help, I get to decide how I provide that help; not the person asking for help.


I you don't want to help in a post then stay out of it, no harm done.

Hold on, there! Who says I don't want to help? In fact, I have been helping people for decades and feel I know more about helping than anybody else. Why shouldn't I help when someone puts out a general request for assistance?

Just because you don't like the manner of my helping doesn't give you the right to tell me not to help. I happen to think that educating people in how to ask for assistance is being helpful. I happen to think that offering solutions which conform to my beliefs is being helpful. I happen to think that I have just as much right to propose my solutions as others have to provide theirs.

Why should my help be considered "hijacking" a thread while another's is considered "helpful"? Because the person asking for help doesn't want my answer? How does he know he doesn't want it? If he knows the answer he wants then why is he asking the question in the first place?

SyCo123
January 25th, 2008, 04:41 PM
It was inversekinetix analysis I was complementing. His detailed examination of your conversation shows where it starts to go awry. I'd say it's right about '(gets involved in something nothing to do with them)'.

I suppose we'll never agree.

You will never convince me to begin 'evangelizing' Linux.

Will you will try more subtle methods to convey your message?

I think you see yourself as a man on a mission, I think your behavior is damaging to the very message you are trying to spread. Which in turn affects me and how my 'beliefs' are perceived.

zami
January 25th, 2008, 05:11 PM
Heh! Sounds like back when I was vegetarian. I just would never tell people, because I didn't want to be pegged as the stereotypical vegan-zealot ranting about barbarism and murder. I didn't want to be that freak that you don't want to take to lunch because she'll go off on a rant about how much puss had to be drained from that chicken breast you're about to eat, bla bla bla. I didn't eat meat for... I think 10-12 years but I don't think I ever once uttered "I'm a vegetarian".

These days, it' using Linux and not using TV that I'm quietly proud of. I'll answer honestly when asked, but I will *never* introduce these elements into conversation myself because I don't want to be lumped with the zealots!

-zami

tehet
January 25th, 2008, 06:37 PM
Person 3: Why do you have to drive to Shelbyville?
(gets involved in something nothing to do with them)

Let's put analogies and fictional stories aside because those can last for ever.
A while back someone asked for help with compiling Apache. I asked why not install the one from the repo's. He said because he wanted the such and such module compiled in. A third person followed up and said that module is already compiled into the repo version and how to apt-get install it. The support requester said that helped and thanked.

The answer to why is often relevant.

aysiu
January 25th, 2008, 06:47 PM
The analogy is false. People who take a car already know about the other methods of transportation and so usually have a good reason for taking a car.

Someone who wants to log in as root often doesn't realize they can accomplish the same tasks more simply using sudo or gksudo.

Someone who wants to install a .tar.gz is often unaware of how repositories work.

Someone who wants to install Internet Explorer may not have tried the User Agent Switcher extension in Firefox.

Someone who wants to install Nero may not have tried K3B.

New users are venturing into new territory and are creatures of habit. They go with what they're familiar with, not necessarily what the best solution is. I've met far more drivers who have in their lives also walked, biked, and taken public transportation than I have new Ubuntu users who actually know how sudo works and the pros and cons of that security model over root/user.

SyCo123
January 25th, 2008, 09:31 PM
Let's put analogies and fictional stories aside because those can last for ever.
A while back someone asked for help with compiling Apache. I asked why not install the one from the repo's. He said because he wanted the such and such module compiled in. A third person followed up and said that module is already compiled into the repo version and how to apt-get install it. The support requester said that helped and thanked.

The answer to why is often relevant.

You're right, it really is. I think 'why' of course relevant. But in this scenario, where inversekinetix says (gets involved in something nothing to do with them), is the point at which the communication begins to break down and the frustration begins.

Sometime we have to explain ourselves and why we need more information, especially to people who are new to the process of using community support.

If those who choose to help can see this as it's happening and show a little extra patience with the 'annoying noob' then the experience would be better for all concerned.

zami: I wonder how many people reduced their meat intake or even turned veggie thanks to your example? More than you'll ever know I'll bet.