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ruz322
January 2nd, 2008, 08:16 PM
Is anyone as excited as I am about the upcoming release of KDE4? I've been testing out the live cd a little bit and I like it a lot. I've long been a Gnome user, but I think this version will sell me over. The only real thing I don't like is the enormous taskbar at the bottom. I really like Dolphin over Konquerer as well.

dasunst3r
January 2nd, 2008, 08:18 PM
There is no doubt that I will be giving KDE4 its fair trial, but it is likely that I will be holding off until April or so when Hardy Heron comes out.

snakeeyes
January 2nd, 2008, 08:21 PM
I am a KDE user and have been a KDE user for a long time but I don't like KDE 4 much. I installed Kubuntu KDE 4 RC2 and its full of bugs, its slow, its not as customizable as KDE 3.5.8. The inbuilt eye candy sucks. The taskbar is the ugliest thing I ever saw. Also I read u like Dolphin, I prefer Konqueror though.

WinterWeaver
January 2nd, 2008, 08:22 PM
The only real thing I don't like is the enormous taskbar at the bottom. I really like Dolphin over Konquerer as well.

You can change the size of the taskbar in KDE afaik. Dunno where exactly, as I've been using gnome for aaages now.

ruz322
January 2nd, 2008, 08:22 PM
Well, of course it's buggy right now, it's only a release candidate. I'm sure most of that will be ironed out before its final release. Konquerer is fairly annoying to me and has always been a major reason I've stuck to gnome. I like Nautilus much better than Konquerer...

snakeeyes
January 2nd, 2008, 08:24 PM
Seriously its RC2 thats as close as u can get to the final release as possible. Its still not in working condition and trust me if KDE 4 is not as customizable as KDE 3.5.8 then I seriously consider switching to gnome.

tubasoldier
January 2nd, 2008, 08:25 PM
There is a lot of hype about it. The large taskbar at the bottom (plasma) is really the only new thing about it. All the rest just seems to be an update to QT4. However, they did a great job of integrating all the desktop and libraries so that it now uses less resources to run newly opened programs.

I'm a long time KDE user but will not jump directly into KDE4. The plasma taskbar is not finished and will not be for quite some time. I would assume that by the time KDE 4.1 comes out it should have a lot more configuration options.

I realize that there are other options out there as far as a start menu. I personally think that Kickoff as default was a bad choice. It is terribly unfriendly and hard to navigate. From the computer illiterate people in my family, they like the concept but think it needs to be easier to get "back to where they were." Also, my sister feels like she is trapped in a box with kickoff.

There is a lot of good new things in KDE4 and I'm looking forward to when it becomes as configurable and usable as KDE 3. For now I'll stick with KDE 3.

ruz322
January 2nd, 2008, 08:25 PM
I guess that is true. But by the time Hardy is out, it will have had a few months to be corrected. Hopefully by then it will be usable.

snakeeyes
January 2nd, 2008, 08:28 PM
I guess that is true. But by the time Hardy is out, it will have had a few months to be corrected. Hopefully by then it will be usable.
I hope so its usable by then as well.

p_quarles
January 2nd, 2008, 08:28 PM
Remember, folks, that KDE 4.0 will be a final release for the backend stuff. Plasma -- which is where all the customization will come in -- isn't scheduled to be fully implemented until KDE 4.1.

Lacrimstein
January 2nd, 2008, 08:29 PM
KDE4 is actually more configurable that 3.5, its just that it will be released with Plasma Beta, so a lot of configuration utilities are not added yet. The size of the taskbar, for example, can be changed if some configuration file is edited, but I don't remember which one...

However, the eye candy does suck, 3.5's are a lot better. Hell, they don't even have wobbly windows!!!

Also, I wouldn't switch over to KDE4 until around april, because honestly, its not ready to be released yet. Like I said, Plasma that will come with the release will still be early beta, so there will barely be any functionality... yet.

dannyboy79
January 2nd, 2008, 08:31 PM
FYI:
there may not even be a Kubuntu for Hardy? I can't really understand if they are saying that in this article or if they are just saying that they won't commercially support KDE4?

Here's the article.
http://www.news.com/8301-13580_3-9838094-39.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-5

ruz322
January 2nd, 2008, 08:31 PM
However, the eye candy does suck, 3.5's are a lot better. Hell, they don't even have wobbly windows!!!



i thought wobbly windows was implemented by compiz/beryl?

p_quarles
January 2nd, 2008, 08:33 PM
FYI:
there may not even be a Kubuntu for Hardy? I can't really understand if they are saying that in this article or if they are just saying that they won't commercially support KDE4?

Here's the article.
http://www.news.com/8301-13580_3-9838094-39.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-5
It just means that Kubuntu 8.04 won't be a long-term support edition. KDE 4 isn't stable enough yet, and KDE 3.5 will be dead by the end of the LTS cycle (2011).

Lacrimstein
January 2nd, 2008, 08:34 PM
Yeah, but KDE4 doesn't use compiz/beryl; all the eyecandy is implemented by KWin. One could install compiz in KDE4 to get the desired effects, but it will be a huge resource hog, not to mention extremely unstable.

a12ctic
January 2nd, 2008, 08:38 PM
kdemod for arch is a lot better. I tried KDE4 RC2 and was not impressed the slightest.

tubasoldier
January 2nd, 2008, 08:39 PM
FYI:
there may not even be a Kubuntu for Hardy? I can't really understand if they are saying that in this article or if they are just saying that they won't commercially support KDE4?

Here's the article.
http://www.news.com/8301-13580_3-9838094-39.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-5

It would be ridiculously stupid to give KDE long terms support at this point. I'm pretty positive that there will be a KDE variant. There always is. KDE will always be in the repos. However, to actually support KDE 3 for three more years would be retarded. The focus for KDE devs is on KDE 4. The focus for users switching is KDE 4.1 or 4.2. It would be a bad move for Canonical to support KDE long term at this point. It is an awkward transition and major transitions can not be supported for three years.

snakeeyes
January 2nd, 2008, 08:42 PM
Seriously the taskbar is so UGLY, I mean I almost puked when booted into RC2 for the first time.

snakeeyes
January 2nd, 2008, 08:44 PM
Oh yeah if KDE 4 is difficult to cutomize then that sucks as well, it should be as easy to customize as 3.5.8 is.

samwyse
January 2nd, 2008, 09:22 PM
Wait for 4.1.

luca.b
January 3rd, 2008, 11:09 AM
It should be evident that "sucks" replies do not give anything constructive. The best you can do is to help to make them better. You don't have to code: personally, I'm working on some Plasma video tutorials that show some of the fundamental operations that have changed since KDE 3.5.
And there's a FAQ too, though I can't link to it yet as it's not complete.

snakeeyes
January 3rd, 2008, 11:19 AM
Sucks isn't meant to be constructive, I know that as well. The thing is simple KDE 3.5.8 was extremely easy to modify even without reading a tutorial or watching a video, and u could customize every inch of it. If KDE 4.0 makes customization harder then that won't be too good if a long time KDE user like me is going to have to watch video to learn what I have been using for such a long time.

luca.b
January 3rd, 2008, 07:03 PM
Before you make such statement, you may want to read up on Plasma's goals. The idea is to overhaul the way you use your desktop: hence, tutorials *are* a necessity.

TeraDyne
January 3rd, 2008, 07:13 PM
I tried the latest version of KDE4, and I honestly didn't like it. It's just not the way I like to work, and it's way too heavy now. However, I've rediscovered how good and light GNOME is because of that test. I'll give it another shot once it goes to final release, but if it's like the testing version, I'll skip on it.

maniacmusician
January 3rd, 2008, 09:17 PM
I tried the latest version of KDE4, and I honestly didn't like it. It's just not the way I like to work, and it's way too heavy now. However, I've rediscovered how good and light GNOME is because of that test. I'll give it another shot once it goes to final release, but if it's like the testing version, I'll skip on it.
It won't be. It's actually predicted to be lighter than KDE 3.5, I think. The upgrade to Qt4 really helped, and a lot of the core technologies for KDE have been reworked with extendability in mind, so we should see an improvement.

Erunno
January 3rd, 2008, 10:47 PM
It won't be. It's actually predicted to be lighter than KDE 3.5, I think. The upgrade to Qt4 really helped, and a lot of the core technologies for KDE have been reworked with extendability in mind, so we should see an improvement.

I haven't seen reliable data yet but so far there are indications that KDE4 might be currently using less RAM but eating more CPU cycles. Plus, there are still unsolved performance problems with KWin composite which, when turned on, makes the desktop very slow on some systems. I guess more focus will be put on performance optimizations once the functional design is ready and implemented (in other words: 4.1+ material).

swoll1980
January 4th, 2008, 12:27 AM
I think KDE took a huge step in the wrong direction with this "Vista" wannabe interface. Didn't they get the memo that Vista is wideley unpopular. The new uncustumizable KDE4 makes me wish I were using Vista (ya it's that bad) and like Vista it's a little to late to fix it now. I just hope that the guys at KDE will look back, and learn that if you you clone a turd it's going to smell as bad as the original. :(

swoll1980
January 4th, 2008, 12:29 AM
Before you make such statement, you may want to read up on Plasma's goals. The idea is to overhaul the way you use your desktop: hence, tutorials *are* a necessity.

Vista tried the "harder to use, but better" Thing it didn't work out to well!!

Erik Trybom
January 4th, 2008, 12:31 AM
I, for one, am all for the hype. We need more hypes in free software!

p_quarles
January 4th, 2008, 12:33 AM
I think KDE took a huge step in the wrong direction with this "Vista" wannabe interface. Didn't they get the memo that Vista is wideley unpopular. The new uncustumizable KDE4 makes me wish I were using Vista (ya it's that bad) and like Vista it's a little to late to fix it now. I just hope that the guys at KDE will look back, and learn that if you you clone a turd it's going to smell as bad as the original. :(
As several people have already mentioned in this thread, the Plasma interface (which will be extremely customizable) won't be ready until later this year. The current KDE 4 RCs only represent the "under the hood" aspect of the desktop, and should not be used as the basis for judging the flexibility of the entire desktop.

zekopeko
January 4th, 2008, 12:33 AM
I think KDE took a huge step in the wrong direction with this "Vista" wannabe interface. Didn't they get the memo that Vista is wideley unpopular. The new uncustumizable KDE4 makes me wish I were using Vista (ya it's that bad) and like Vista it's a little to late to fix it now. I just hope that the guys at KDE will look back, and learn that if you you clone a turd it's going to smell as bad as the original. :(

did you even read any of the posts before yours? and how can you compare KDE4.0 (shiny and NEW) to KDE3.5 (old ergo TESTED).
i'm 100% sure that you will eat your words later in the development of KDE4 (think 4.1+).

swoll1980
January 4th, 2008, 12:51 AM
As several people have already mentioned in this thread, the Plasma interface (which will be extremely customizable) won't be ready until later this year. The current KDE 4 RCs only represent the "under the hood" aspect of the desktop, and should not be used as the basis for judging the flexibility of the entire desktop.

Well in that case I don't like the way the menu doesn't touch the end of the screen. Very ugly!! I dove into KDE3 and gnome with no problem this thing is confusing. KDE is supposed to make linux easy, witch they did. Now there going the wrong way. Way to heavy if I wanted to drop a lead weight on my cpu I would reinstall Vista. The web browser is so slow I didn't know if I was supposed to wait for it to load a page,or put on a pot of coffee. If plasma is that far off the rest of the project then they shouldn't include it in the rc, and if there going to call this thing an rc then they can expect people to wander what the hell they were thinking. Dolphin is nice it's the one dimond hiding in that big pile of crap

p_quarles
January 4th, 2008, 12:58 AM
Well in that case I don't like the way the menu doesn't touch the end of the screen. Very ugly!! I dove into KDE3 and gnome with no problem this thing is confusing. KDE is supposed to make linux easy, witch they did. Now there going the wrong way. Way to heavy if I wanted to drop a lead weight on my cpu I would reinstall Vista. The web browser is so slow I didn't know if I was supposed to wait for it to load a page,or put on a pot of coffee. If plasma is that far off the rest of the project then they shouldn't include it in the rc, and if there going to call this thing an rc then they can expect people to wander what the hell they were thinking. Dolphin is nice it's the one dimond hiding in that big pile of crap
You're entitled to your opinion, obviously, but perhaps it would be better to reserve judgment until the product is actually finished?

maniacmusician
January 4th, 2008, 02:06 AM
I haven't seen reliable data yet but so far there are indications that KDE4 might be currently using less RAM but eating more CPU cycles. Plus, there are still unsolved performance problems with KWin composite which, when turned on, makes the desktop very slow on some systems. I guess more focus will be put on performance optimizations once the functional design is ready and implemented (in other words: 4.1+ material).

All this testing was done with debugging turned on, right? I assume it's a little slower due to that. It wouldn't surprise me to see that it utilizes more CPU though, since it does a hell of a lot more.


I think KDE took a huge step in the wrong direction with this "Vista" wannabe interface. Didn't they get the memo that Vista is wideley unpopular. The new uncustumizable KDE4 makes me wish I were using Vista (ya it's that bad) and like Vista it's a little to late to fix it now. I just hope that the guys at KDE will look back, and learn that if you you clone a turd it's going to smell as bad as the original. :(

[sigh] two things; first off, KDE4 is not "uncustomizable;" Plasma is still being worked on, so no one has gotten around to creating the configuration dialogs for it yet. Once it nears completion, it will be just as, and perhaps more customizable than KDE3 was.

Secondly, it is not copying vista; I don't know where you're getting this idea from, as its certainly not true. If anything, the oxygen theme is borrowing a little from Mac aesthetics. If you're referring to the darker panel or menu, here's a clue; the final panel theme hasn't been decided on yet, and there are at least two other alternative menus in development, as well as the old KDE3 menu that you're used to. Actually, the old KDE3 menu is already completed, but Raptor and Lancelot (the alternative menus) are still in development.

If you're talking about the plasmoids, well, Superkaramba has been around for far longer than the Vista applets (or whatever they're called in Vista), and Plasma is somewhat of a fusion of Superkaramba and the regular kdesktop (but not really, since most of the code is new and not reused). Nothing else about it is like Vista that I can think of, so I really don't know what you're talking about here.


Vista tried the "harder to use, but better" Thing it didn't work out to well!!

Here's another clue; it's not "harder" to use, it's just different. If we just kept on churning out the same things that we've been using for years, there wouldn't be any innovation at all. There's bound to be change somewhere along the line, and the KDE developers decided to make that time now. It may seem harder to use right now because the frontend is largely unfinished, and you don't have any configuration dialogs to look at, and the fact that its just different. Once it's finished, if you give it a week or so, I'm sure you'd learn about really cool things it can do that you never would have thought of.


Well in that case I don't like the way the menu doesn't touch the end of the screen. Very ugly!! I dove into KDE3 and gnome with no problem this thing is confusing. KDE is supposed to make linux easy, witch they did. Now there going the wrong way. Way to heavy if I wanted to drop a lead weight on my cpu I would reinstall Vista. The web browser is so slow I didn't know if I was supposed to wait for it to load a page,or put on a pot of coffee. If plasma is that far off the rest of the project then they shouldn't include it in the rc, and if there going to call this thing an rc then they can expect people to wander what the hell they were thinking. Dolphin is nice it's the one dimond hiding in that big pile of crap

The menu, panel size, and everything else will be just as configurable once the configuration dialogs are created. KDE4 is also not heavy; it uses less memory, and even with debugging turned on, it runs at a reasonable speed. With debugging turned off, it would likely be faster than KDE3, and as time goes on, I'm sure that developers will add performance-related patches.

Also, plasma can't be excluded from the RC, since it pretty much renders the entire desktop. The developers have been stating for months that 4.0 would mark the completion of all the necessary backends to run KDE4, and that things like Plasma are aiming for a 4.1 release.

swoll1980
January 4th, 2008, 03:08 AM
This is what I'm saying if plasma is nessesary for this thing to work, then by releasing this thing this early they are going to take a hit to there credablity. if you go to there website they are not going out of there way to tell people this thing isn't ready. When I see rc I think it's 99% ready for the masses. I've always used Ubuntus rcs' and every one of them were ready to go. This thing is not even close, and if someone goes to there site and downloads it like I did without listening to your sermen there going to say this is a crappy gui

TeraDyne
January 4th, 2008, 03:19 AM
This is what I'm saying if plasma is nessesary for this thing to work, then by releasing this thing this early they are going to take a hit to there credablity. if you go to there website they are not going out of there way to tell people this thing isn't ready. When I see rc I think it's 99% ready for the masses. I've always used Ubuntus rcs' and every one of them were ready to go. This thing is not even close, and if someone goes to there site and downloads it like I did without listening to your sermen there going to say this is a crappy gui

You've got a point there. When I see 'Release', I think "Oh! It's ready for public use!". In this definition, 'Release' actually means "It's ready, but it's not done yet. That's how I'm reading everything, anyway. Feel free to correct me

TeraDyne's Rule #095 "If you say it's done, you'd better be sure. If it's not, you'll just be laughed at." That's why I haven't released the latest versions of my fan fiction yet. It's 'ready', but it's not done.

Edit: And I would like to point out something. If they release it, and it's not done, Jono Bacon and the LUGRadio, TLLTS, and Linux Action Show guys will gladly take the **** out of them them until KDE5.

maniacmusician
January 4th, 2008, 03:32 AM
It's true that they might have made a mistake in naming their releases, although they've been saying for months what those numbers really mean. I guess they're just sticking to the FOSS policy of "release often, release early."

@TeraDyne: Yeah, that's what I think when I hear release too. However, I do think of Release Candidates as still being beta software. I kind of wish they'd used different tags at different points, but at the same time, they're trying to attract a larger audience to help mine out bugs.

TeraDyne
January 4th, 2008, 03:38 AM
@TeraDyne: Yeah, that's what I think when I hear release too. However, I do think of Release Candidates as still being beta software. I kind of wish they'd used different tags at different points, but at the same time, they're trying to attract a larger audience to help mine out bugs.

Isn't that called "trolling for beta testers"? I mean, I'd have expected this info to be about a mid-beta release, not a final. I'm going to coin this phrase by taking the **** out of them: "Google is to 'beta' as KDE is to 'Final Release'."

maniacmusician
January 4th, 2008, 03:44 AM
Isn't that called "trolling for beta testers"? I mean, I'd have expected this info to be about a mid-beta release, not a final. I'm going to coin this phrase by taking the **** out of them: "Google is to 'beta' as KDE is to 'Final Release'."
Well it would be, if they weren't totally candid about it. They've been really up front in stating what's going to be complete by 4.0 and what's not. They even pushed back the release date to honor those statements.

TeraDyne
January 4th, 2008, 03:50 AM
Well it would be, if they weren't totally candid about it. They've been really up front in stating what's going to be complete by 4.0 and what's not. They even pushed back the release date to honor those statements.

That's still trolling the waters. You can be just as up front with the fish and other marine life, and they'll still be caught in the nets. The only way they would be a bit out of that area would be to put a giant warning, on the the download page or in a splash screen on first run, that states: "This is a final release, but it is not complete. Help us test it so that we can finish it faster!"

Then again, I honestly that they should put the warning up anyway, just to inform the newbies who don't know any better.

maniacmusician
January 4th, 2008, 04:25 AM
That's still trolling the waters. You can be just as up front with the fish and other marine life, and they'll still be caught in the nets. The only way they would be a bit out of that area would be to put a giant warning, on the the download page or in a splash screen on first run, that states: "This is a final release, but it is not complete. Help us test it so that we can finish it faster!"

Then again, I honestly that they should put the warning up anyway, just to inform the newbies who don't know any better.
Yeah, they should...although the problem is, no one downloads it from their site. It's not Windows...most people will get it through official repositories. I expect most people to find out through word of mouth. I'm certainly informing everyone I can, as are a lot of other people, including the developers. But there might end up being that one guy who posts it on Digg and doesn't say that.

It's a difficult thing to get around, I guess.

swoll1980
January 4th, 2008, 04:49 AM
I had not inquired about it for a few months. I went to there site to see how it was coming along, seen that they were releasing it in to weeks and got all exited about it, installed it only to find out that it was this unconfigurable monstrousity. if it were not for this thread I would not even know that it was incomplete. This could end up being horrible for them. knowing that it is incomplete gives me hope for the future though

jetpeach
February 29th, 2008, 01:07 AM
i have faith kde4 will eventually be awesome. the changes are significant to the backend, and it will eventually run faster and be more configurable.

but for anyone wondering, unless you're prepared to deal with bugs, and quite a lot of them, don't use it right now. i don't care whether something is called alpha, beta, rc or final release, companies and organizations vary widely on these definitions. but what is important to make clear to everyone is kde4.0 still has bugs and lots of them, although great progress is being made and eventually kde4 series will be fantastic.

SunnyRabbiera
February 29th, 2008, 03:08 AM
Right now for me KDE4 is a unusuable mess with its over sized panel and lack of options, but it does look it could be a contender in the near future if they get their act together.