Sometimes I think this forum is a little overmoderated.

[ticopelp]

First of all, my apologies if this is the wrong place for this sort of thing, and please feel free to move the thread if it is. Second of all, I don't intend this to start any kind of drama, but I do have an honest complaint about this forum.

I really love it here -- it's an extremely helpful resource, and the people are, for the most part, very friendly and helpful. However, I do sometimes get a little tired of seeing threads disappear because there's a disagreement or some minor altercation.

I logged on tonight to check back in with a movies thread that was here in the Cafe, only to find it had apparently been completely deleted, along with all my posts in it, as well as some excellent posts by other users. I remember there was some brief flame war over something trivial -- apparently it was enough to warrant nuking the entire thread. There were some good movie recommendations in there, things I wanted to check out -- gone now, because of the behavior of a few users. I would think that just locking it would have been plenty.

Another thread that I was following, I found locked, with no explanation -- it seemed like a perfectly viable thread, and there was no indication as to why it was closed, from any moderator. Again, looking back at it, there was some tussle between a couple of users who were acting in an immature fashion -- nothing particularly unusual on the internet, and not (in my humble opinion) worth locking the thread over, at least not permanently.

This is not a major thing -- by and large I think this is a great community -- but I do sometimes feel a little vexed when entire threads just vanish over a silly exchange of words that would probably just blow over by itself, and which 90% of the users present don't have anything to do with. To me, this seems rather close to punishing everyone for the actions of a specific few. Especially when those many have taken time out of their day to try to genuinely contribute and add something of value, however trivial, to the community. In short, I'm tired of seeing my posts disappear because of the actions of others.

It certainly isn't my place to tell people how to moderate their forum, but personally, I don't think deleting entire threads is really necessary or productive, unless the thread itself was obviously created in bad faith or is such an obvious push-button topic that it's going to cause major disruption of the board. Even then, I think locking the thread would perfectly suffice most of the time.

I'm not crying "censorship," as I understand the necessity of moderation (I am, and have been, a mod myself on several other boards). I just think a slightly more restrained hand might be, well... nicer.

That's all. Again, if I've misstepped in bringing the issue to this particular forum, I apologize. Thanks.

[lespaul_rentals]

Yeah, I kind of agree with you in some respects. You do have to remember that many people view this forum from work and such, however, and the mods want to keep things appropriate for users of all ages. They also want to ensure that no one is flamed for their views, and verfiy that people of all backgrounds and opinions are accepted.

[some_random_noob]

I know, there is a bit too much control. But it's a big forum, so sometimes it sorts stuff out better when threads go in loops or get out of control or off topic etc.

On the other hand, there's completely mad political correctness (Which I seem to be a target of).

[Tundro Walker]

Generally, the Community Cafe is for friendly, social pub-gathering type of chats. When folks start flame wars or such (as annoying as it can be when they high-jack a thread like that), the mods will warn people, or just move the thread to the Backyard.

But, you're right. It seems odd when interesting threads disappear without a trace... no "Moved: ..." or anything. It's like they went to the Bermuda Triangle of the forums or something.

Can some mod explain the logic path for this? What warrants an out-right thread deletion?


On another subject, how would you like to lose weight effortlessly! That's right! Just take two of these amazing wonder pills that I'm selling and...(I'm kidding, I'm kidding...:) ...pretty sure sales spam gets a thread deleted faster than you can say "kitty litter")

[baracuda68]

::::flags this post for removal:::: notifies darkmatter
NOOOO!

j/k

:p

[barbedsaber]

It had never hapend to me, but base on what your saying, maybe we could ask the moderators to delete posts, not entire threads.

[rBGH]

My first post was to give a congrats to someone for their 2000th post. I was sent a warning for spam and my post was deleted. This post is more spam than that one was. So yea, I agree.

[popch]

First of all, please remember that this forum has a definitve purpose which is to provide support and encouragement for users of Ubuntu Linux.

The kinds of threads you name as being overmoderated do not stand in any relation to the main purpose of the forum. They might not be superfluous as they give us the chance to talk about things not strictly technical. Still, they are not central to the purpose of this forum.

I rather suspect that moderating those subfora (which are after all only 'decoration') take a disproportionate amount of time and moderator attention.

I admit that I have been reprimanded for using inappropriate language at one occasion. While I for myself do not think the language I used all that terrible, I respect that the moderators and staff here are anxious to avoid an influx of careless users or even vandals.

Please realize, that this place abounds with children. What else do you call person in the age group between - say - 12 and 17? Those and other easily impressed persons will take the language and conduct encountered here as the standard for their own behaviour. Thus, it is in the interest of all well meaning users that the standard is kept high. If some staff member or moderator turns out to be a bit overzealous in one of the peripheral places, I take that in my stride. After all, we're only guests here, and not even paying ones.

Lastly: why do you lose threads you are interested in? You can susbscribe to threads. You can even set your options so that the forum subscribes you automatically to every thread you post in. You can place your subscription into folders for easier retrieval. You can display your subscribed threads which have been posted to since you have looked at them last.

I use these functions and scarcely ever notice when a thread has been moved. I suspect that the threads you are missing have been moved and not deleted. So it is mostly up to you to keep your threads accessible for yourself.

[K.Mandla]

This is going to be INCREDIBLY ironic, but I'm going to shift your thread to the Forum Feedback section, so the people who manage the house can take your comments into consideration.

#-o

[toupeiro]

First of all, please remember that this forum has a definitve purpose which is to provide support and encouragement for users of Ubuntu Linux.

The kinds of threads you name as being overmoderated do not stand in any relation to the main purpose of the forum. They might not be superfluous as they give us the chance to talk about things not strictly technical. Still, they are not central to the purpose of this forum.

I

That being said, the "community cafe's" main focus is not necessarily support. The other 97% of this forum is exclusively dedicated to that. I'm in agreement with Ticopelp here to a certain extent. I'll reinterate something I've said in one form or another on a few different threads:

I have a great respect for the work the moderators on this site do, but overmoderation is not necessarily a productive thing. Part of being a functional part of a support community like this; one without a face or a common culture; is tolerance and understanding. There is a difference between a flame post and an opinionated post which differs from other peoples opinions. Such is life. The word Ubuntu, by definition, is a direct reflection of tolerance and diversity. People could do well to remember that.

[barbedsaber]

well, I suppose thats a good thing, rather than talking amoungst ourselves, we might get some action taken, no offense to you mods, you do a job that most people would screme and run away from.

[matthew]

I appreciate the comments and I totally understand the perspective(s) mentioned. Moderation of a community like requires a delicate balance and sometimes we make mistakes. Our goal, if we are to err, is to err on the side of caution, specifically on the side of keeping the forums safe for viewing at work or at school.

There is a long post I wrote some time ago about how moderators think. It might be enlightening...there is a link in my sig if you are interested.

Oh, for the record, we do not delete posts. If they seem to have disappeared, it only means the post was moved, either to a different part of the forums, or to the forum jail where only staff can view it.

[mips]

I logged on tonight to check back in with a movies thread that was here in the Cafe...

I nearly had a heart attack when I read that as I though it referred to my "The GOOD movie list" thread, phew fortunately it is still there though.

I understand what you are saying though. Mods will jail an entire thread which is 99% good because of the bad done by 1% of individuals. Punishment goes towards all and not just the guilty 1%. It would be nice if they could just jail the offending posts and issue infractions to the perpetrators.

[popch]

It would be nice if they could just jail the offending posts and issue infractions to the perpetrators.

... which is exactly what 'they' did in several cases I could observe this very month. Except, of course, for the infraction part, which I presume to have taken place but did not observe.

Sorry, I don't know any more which threads those were, so please don't ask me for links.

[jrusso2]

I think the forum is way over moderated and not cause of flaming but often closing threads that moderators just don't seem to like the topic. On the other hand they seem to leave dead and beaten to death threads keep resurfacing even though there is nothing more to add on the subject.

[PriceChild]

I've just gone through the last week or so of Jail and deleted threads... but can't find this movie thread? How did you try and find it?

I think if you don't believe a thread should be locked, the best thing is to click the report button on it and try and get something done immediately. We're not monsters and will always take constructive criticism on board... but debating issues like this when the threads in question have "disappeared" seems a little hard to deal with.

[mips]

We're not monsters and will always take constructive criticism on board... but debating issues like this when the threads in question have "disappeared" seems a little hard to deal with.

Maybe the thread is not gone/jailed, maybe the individual just can't find it and assumes it has been jailed. Could be an honest mistake on the OPs part.

Here is a list of movie related threads from the last month or so:
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=464302
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=641029
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=462561
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=638523
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=601467
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=619305
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=624169
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=616760
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=610435

Is the OP referring to any of the above perhaps?

Edit:
If I offended any of the staff with my previous post then I apologise, was not my intention though.

[frodon]

Don't forget the puprpose of the resolution center :)

If you want a thread to be re-opened because you have valid reasons then request it in the resolution center, such requests are often satisfied. So better than feeling vexed because a thread was wrongly closed in your opinion request it to be re-open giving your reasons.

[fuscia]

i think it's the nature of the beast. when forums get larger and more popular, they become more conservative and very concerned about their appearance. i'm not sure it can be avoided.

[lespaul_rentals]

Please realize, that this place abounds with children. What else do you call person in the age group between - say - 12 and 17?

Thanks for labeling me a child, popch. I'm about 5 months away from being a legal adult, but it's great to know I'm still in the same category as a 12yo (no offense to any such members who read this). Your willingness to assault the generations that come after you with such harsh words suggests to me you are in that age bracket from about 40-60, am I right? I would certainly hope that you are not a young adult, as it would hurt me even more to hear such abuse come from one of my peers. I am used to myself and others from Generation Y being considered immature young'uns, but come on. Not everyone from that age bracket is a "child," and after the comment you just made I would go so far as to say the "children" are more accepting of others than those who claim to be more mature.

Mods, sorry if this post came off a bit harsh; his words rubbed me the wrong way.

[dannyboy79]

Thanks for labeling me a child, popch. I'm about 5 months away from being a legal adult, but it's great to know I'm still in the same category as a 12yo (no offense to any such members who read this). Your willingness to assault the generations that come after you with such harsh words suggests to me you are in that age bracket from about 40-60, am I right? I would certainly hope that you are not a young adult, as it would hurt me even more to hear such abuse come from one of my peers. I am used to myself and others from Generation Y being considered immature young'uns, but come on. Not everyone from that age bracket is a "child," and after the comment you just made I would go so far as to say the "children" are more accepting of others than those who claim to be more mature.

Mods, sorry if this post came off a bit harsh; his words rubbed me the wrong way.


WOW. How can you get offending when he states a legitament term for that age group? Maybe you'd prefer "teens" for ages 13 to 17 and 12 is where you stop being a child? I would have to say that you're considered a child until you're legally an adult. Which in the US I believe is 18. (correct me if I am wrong) He wasn't insulting anyone when he stated, "abound by children", he was merely pointing out a fact. If something like this pushs your buttons the wrong way, you're not going to like forums very much as things like this often fly without recourse.

As far this forum being too moderated. I agree to a certain extent. I have had issues many many times with mod's. I have received plenty of warnings as well 3 infractions. I thought these were for very silly reasons at first but after I thought about it, I was in the wrong 99% of the time. It's a neccessary evil that the mod's moderate or else there would be chaos. Reading the english langauge, most of the times sentences can't be understood properly because we don't see any body langauge or facial expressions. Which is why things can be misunderstood or flat out taken incorrectly by over sensitive people.

I would like to thank the moderators for keeping the forums sensible and all their hard work which I would imagine that they are all doing voluntarily.

[lespaul_rentals]

WOW. How can you get offending when he states a legitament term for that age group? Maybe you'd prefer "teens" for ages 13 to 17 and 12 is where you stop being a child? I would have to say that you're considered a child until you're legally an adult. Which in the US I believe is 18. (correct me if I am wrong) He wasn't insulting anyone when he stated, "abound by children", he was merely pointing out a fact. If something like this pushs your buttons the wrong way, you're not going to like forums very much as things like this often fly without recourse.

So when I turn 18, I'm magically less inclined to be influenced by others swearing and such? I highly doubt that. He was not bringing up legal considerations, he was bringing up comparisons of maturity.

[popch]

words rubbed me the wrong way.

Sorry for rubbing any way.

Since development in humans does not progress at a uniform rate, some people might be more mature at 14 than others at 20. You are quite right about my age bracket. I am still right about the one I gave as I have met quite a number of young people aged 16+ whose behaviour was consistent with that of younger ones. And vice versa, of course.

The message remains the same: this place attracts an impressive number of children, and quite a few of those will take the behaviour they encounter here as a standard for their own.

Hence, I am all in favor of not using profanities or rude manners here.

[matthew]

Okay, let's keep the tension down to a minimum while we disagree, please. :)

We can all choose to disagree without being disagreeable in our manner...let's aim for that, anyway, as I recognize none of us is perfect.

[bapoumba]

i think it's the nature of the beast. when forums get larger and more popular, they become more conservative and very concerned about their appearance. i'm not sure it can be avoided.
I'm not sure about the appearance.

it is impossible to keep civil relationships the same way hosting a bunch of friend for a dinner or 5000 people from different cultural backgrounds, age etc. who do not know each other.

The forums rules have evolved from a few simple common sense points to an elaborate policy. Most (if not all) of the evolutions were decided after some event happened, and a particular rule had to be established.

[LaRoza]

I think the mods and admins do a wonderful job of moderating, and respect all of their decisions. Their role is probably quite difficult, and I respect them to the fullest.

Good work guys/girls/bots!

[bapoumba]

bots :lol:

[p_quarles]

bots :lol:
Heh. I actually would be kinda cool to have something like Ubotu here, for the recurring questions and so forth.

[KiwiNZ]

I would like to see this thread continue with constructive comment and ideas . Please no flaming and tension.

Any organisation that does not listen to the gift of constructive ctiticizm is doomed to failure. I listen may not always agree and may not always take it on board but it is my obligation to this community to listen.

So make it easy for the staff and myself to listen an keep it friendly and keep it going.

I give you my promise to continue to review what is said here

[PriceChild]

Mods, sorry if this post came off a bit harsh; his words rubbed me the wrong way.And you believe that this sentence excuses whatever comes before?

[mellowd]

I believe this place is a bit overmoderated as one of my innocent threads was torn apart

[rune0077]

Right. First of, I already placed several post in another thread about the need (or lack of need) for moderation, and I really don't want to get into that again here.

But whenever I here this statement, that we are doing this to protect "the children", it just makes me laugh. Like, protect them from what? Do any of you have kids or younger siblings? Have you ever listened to them talk to each other? This is the post MTV generation we are talking about here: kids who grew up with Dr. Dre, American Pie movies, and more-or-less free access to the internet. Do you guys honestly think, that there is anything we "grownups" can say, that will in any way shock or offend them? If anything, they would be the ones shocking and offending us. If I stood up in front of a group of kids and tried to shock them as well as I could, with the most horrible language I could possibly think of, they would laugh at me, then say "was that it? sorry pops, roll off to die with the other dinosaurs, 'coz that was nothing".

So lets be honest about this and admit that we aren't doing it to protect the kids (because they really don't need our protection), we do it to protect a few sensitive souls that might get offended by how most of us talk daily. Not saying that's a bad thing, just saying that's how it is. The kids really couldn't care less.

[LaRoza]

Right. First of, I already placed several post in another thread about the need (or lack of need) for moderation, and I really don't want to get into that again here.

But whenever I here this statement, that we are doing this to protect "the children", it just makes me laugh. Like, protect them from what? Do any of you have kids or younger siblings? Have you ever listened to them talk to each other? This is the post MTV generation we are talking about here: kids who grew up with Dr. Dre, American Pie movies, and more-or-less free access to the internet. Do you guys honestly think, that there is anything we "grownups" can say, that will in any way shock or offend them? If anything, they would be the ones shocking and offending us. If I stood up in front of a group of kids and tried to shock them as well as I could, with the most horrible language I could possibly think of, they would laugh at me, then say "was that it? sorry pops, roll off to die with the other dinosaurs, 'coz that was nothing".

So lets be honest about this and admit that we aren't doing it to protect the kids (because they really don't need our protection), we do it to protect a few sensitive souls that might get offended by how most of us talk daily. Not saying that's a bad thing, just saying that's how it is. The kids really couldn't care less.

Yes, most children are used to things that once were the domain of the older people. However, such thing have no place on a tech forum, so what is the problem? No one goes into the Hardware and Laptop forum asking how often they smoke marijuana because that is not the purpose of the forum. The Cafe and Backyard have their own rules, and we have all agreed to those rules, so what is the issue with following them?

[rune0077]

Yes, most children are used to things that once were the domain of the older people. However, such thing have no place on a tech forum, so what is the problem? No one goes into the Hardware and Laptop forum asking how often they smoke marijuana because that is not the purpose of the forum. The Cafe and Backyard have their own rules, and we have all agreed to those rules, so what is the issue with following them?

No problem, I'm following them politely (minus one or two infractions), just saying, stop telling me it's for the kids sake (you didn't tell me though, someone else did), because we know that's not true. Let's be honest about why we are having this censorship, instead of making up stories about "the poor children".

[Nano Geek]

Right. First of, I already placed several post in another thread about the need (or lack of need) for moderation, and I really don't want to get into that again here.

But whenever I here this statement, that we are doing this to protect "the children", it just makes me laugh. Like, protect them from what? Do any of you have kids or younger siblings? Have you ever listened to them talk to each other? This is the post MTV generation we are talking about here: kids who grew up with Dr. Dre, American Pie movies, and more-or-less free access to the internet. Do you guys honestly think, that there is anything we "grownups" can say, that will in any way shock or offend them? If anything, they would be the ones shocking and offending us. If I stood up in front of a group of kids and tried to shock them as well as I could, with the most horrible language I could possibly think of, they would laugh at me, then say "was that it? sorry pops, roll off to die with the other dinosaurs, 'coz that was nothing".

So lets be honest about this and admit that we aren't doing it to protect the kids (because they really don't need our protection), we do it to protect a few sensitive souls that might get offended by how most of us talk daily. Not saying that's a bad thing, just saying that's how it is. The kids really couldn't care less.So we should pretend that all of humanity has lost any morals that it might have had and go ahead and say and do the most foul things we can think of?
I don't think so.

There are some, particularly in the "religious" group, that don't want their kids or themselves for that matter to hear every piece of garbage the world can produce.

[popch]

But whenever I here this statement, that we are doing this to protect "the children", it just makes me laugh.

If this is an allusion to an argument mentioned by me earlier in this thread:

As far as I am concerned, the point is not that the moderation of a forum 'protects children' in any perceivable way.

The point is rather that people who are easily impressed and have no established codex of behaviour would unavoidably emulate the poorer ways of behaving in a forum.

There is a statistically significant corrrelation between age and tendency to be impressed by inadequate behaviour.

Thus, it is in the interest of the community using the forum that the chances are small that easily impressable people encounter inadequate behaviour.

[rune0077]

So we should pretend that all of humanity has lost any morals that it might have had and go ahead and say and do the most foul things we can think of?
I don't think so.


No, I'm saying that the "morals" you have been used to can no longer be applied to the world in which we live. A new set of morals, functioning on an entirely different logic, is slowly emerging, and it is neither you, nor me, who will set the standards of those morals: that right and duty belongs to the coming generation. Your claim that children today somehow "lacks" morals, is not only arrogant, but also a sure way to get yourself left behind when the new generation come of age. My grandmother once upon a time refused to figure out how to use a computer or a cellphone, because she felt they had no place in the world. Today, she lives more or less isolated, completely alienated from a world she can no longer understand. The same could happen to all of us. My advice to you, would be to pay more attention to the kids: learn their language, learn what drives and motivates them, watch their tv shows, etc, etc, because in another 10 or twenty years, we all have to play by their rules, and if you have been to stubborn to learn those rules because you felt they were not "moral" enough for you, then you'll find yourself unable to cope with the Brave New World.

Uh, how does that Bowie song goes again?
"And the children that you spit on,
They're immune to your consultations,
They're quite aware what they're going through."
Something like that. Get it?

If this is an allusion to an argument mentioned by me earlier in this thread:
Nah, not you specifically, lots of people seemed to be saying that.


Nah, not just you, lots of people seemed to be saying it.


As far as I am concerned, the point is not that the moderation of a forum 'protects children' in any perceivable way.

The point is rather that people who are easily impressed and have no established codex of behaviour would unavoidably emulate the poorer ways of behaving in a forum.

There is a statistically significant corrrelation between age and tendency to be impressed by inadequate behaviour.

Thus, it is in the interest of the community using the forum that the chances are small that easily impressable people encounter inadequate behaviour.

What one person calls inadequate behaviour, another might consider a stellar example of good behaviour. But as I said, we've already posted this topic to death on another thread, and the conclusion we reached was: there are rules on this forum, and of course we should follow them (or take the consequences like a man and get banned if we don't). Also, I think we do follow the rules. With maybe one or two very small exceptions, I have practically never seen any breech of the rules on the forum (except that one time were I accidental offended some mod by making ill references to the Ubuntu documentations and he send my post to the jail:)), so we may be making much ado about nothing here.

[Nano Geek]

No, I'm saying that the "morals" you have been used to can no longer be applied to the world in which we live. A new set of morals, functioning on an entirely different logic, is slowly emerging, and it is neither you, nor me, who will set the standards of those morals: that right and duty belongs to the coming generation. Your claim that children today somehow "lacks" morals, is not only arrogant, but also a sure way to get yourself left behind when the new generation come of age. My grandmother once upon a time refused to figure out how to use a computer or a cellphone, because she felt they had no place in the world. Today, she lives more or less isolated, completely alienated from a world she can no longer understand. The same could happen to all of us. My advice to you, would be to pay more attention to the kids: learn their language, learn what drives and motivates them, watch their tv shows, etc, etc, because in another 10 or twenty years, we all have to play by their rules, and if you have been to stubborn to learn those rules because you felt they were not "moral" enough for you, then you'll find yourself unable to cope with the Brave New World.

Uh, how does that Bowie song goes again?
"And the children that you spit on,
They're immune to your consultations,
They're quite aware what they're going through."
Something like that. Get it?An argument about morals should not be in the FF&H.

I'll only say that I don't see a reason for the "old morals" to be replaced with "new morals" that expect humanity to behave even more unseemly than we have up till now.

[rune0077]

An argument about morals should be in the FF&H.


Yep. ... Err, actually, I don't know what the FF&H is::confused:


I'll only say that I don't see a reason for the "old morals" to be replaced with "new morals" that expect humanity to behave even more unseemly than we have up till now.

Ah, not to worry, I'm sure not all "the old morals" are on their way out. And who knows, with any bit of luck, the "new morals" may actually turn out to be better than the old ones (hard to imagine how they could get any worse, eh?)

[Nano Geek]

Yep. ... Err, actually, I don't know what the FF&H is::confused:Forum Feedback & HelpAh, not to worry, I'm sure not all "the old morals" are on their way out. And who knows, with any bit of luck, the "new morals" may actually turn out to be better than the old ones (hard to imagine how they could get any worse, eh?)Possibly, but after hearing the news that Nick, the children's TV channel, is considering a show about a pregnant teen, I don't have much hope.

[LaRoza]

An argument about morals should be in the FF&H.


No it shouldn't, but this is the Forum Feedback and Help.

[mips]

I go to the pub for a few hours and this is what happens :confused:

[Nano Geek]

No it shouldn't, but this is the Forum Feedback and Help.Whoops, I mean to say should not be in the FF&H.

I'm not sure how that happened.

[LaRoza]

Whoops, I mean to say should not be in the FF&H.

I'm not sure how that happened.

I see. Don't confuse me like that...

:)

[KiwiNZ]

Having regard to the age of our audience is just one influence on moderation. There is many. As you know we cover many cultures and societies ,age groups,ethnic and religious groups. We are obliged to have regard for all of them.

We are also the representatives of Canonical and Ubuntu and associated partners. We therefore are obliged to have regard to their wishes.

So you can imagine the task of moderation of a Forum as large and diverse as this is like tip-toeing in mine feilds. And all of this is done by a team of volunteers also from a diverse range of cultures and beliefs.

[Nano Geek]

Having regard to the age of our audience is just one influence on moderation. There is many. As you know we cover many cultures and societies ,age groups,ethnic and religious groups. We are obliged to have regard for all of them.

We are also the representatives of Canonical and Ubuntu and associated partners. We therefore are obliged to have regard to their wishes.

So you can imagine the task of moderation of a Forum as large and diverse as this is like tip-toeing in mine feilds. And all of this is done by a team of volunteers also from a diverse range of cultures and beliefs.And I have never seen a better kept forum anywhere.

My sincerest thanks to you guys who put so much hard work into this just forum so that we can annoy you. :)

[PriceChild]

The "protecting the children" argument...

I think you have missed the point here. Children are brought into this argument because their parents should be deciding what is suitable content for them on the internet, in the same way they decide what is suitable for themselves. We would rather the parents feel ubuntuforums.org is a good place to allow their children to learn about technology, rather than ban their children from it for its mature content.

[KiwiNZ]

The "protecting the children" argument...

I think you have missed the point here. Children are brought into this argument because their parents should be deciding what is suitable content for them on the internet, in the same way they decide what is suitable for themselves. We would rather the parents feel ubuntuforums.org is a good place to allow their children to learn about technology, rather than ban their children from it for its mature content.

Exactly

[fuscia]

I'm not sure about the appearance.

it is impossible to keep civil relationships the same way hosting a bunch of friend for a dinner or 5000 people from different cultural backgrounds, age etc. who do not know each other.

The forums rules have evolved from a few simple common sense points to an elaborate policy. Most (if not all) of the evolutions were decided after some event happened, and a particular rule had to be established.

how many rules have been done away with? i'll bet at least 90% of the rule changes, since i've been here, have been further restrictions rather than an easing of restrictions. in the quote below, pricechild is describing an intent to appear more suitable for children, should any ever come here.

i'm not saying it's necessarily a bad thing to be concerned with appearances. anyone involved with any kind of business finds it a necessity to do so. but, with that concern, other concerns get pushed aside. it's a bit ironic that a support forum for something that claims to be "free, as in speech", should be so heavily censored.

I think you have missed the point here. Children are brought into this argument because their parents should be deciding what is suitable content for them on the internet, in the same way they decide what is suitable for themselves. We would rather the parents feel ubuntuforums.org is a good place to allow their children to learn about technology, rather than ban their children from it for its mature content.

[PriceChild]

If people can agree, that
1. bad language, attitudes etc. being present can cause members to leave...
2. no bad language, attitudes etc. present has no effect on any members
then I can't understand why people would want to follow 1.

[rune0077]

If people can agree, that
1. bad language, attitudes etc. being present can cause members to leave...
2. no bad language, attitudes etc. present has no effect on any members
then I can't understand why people would want to follow 1.

Because misbehaving is far preferable to always behaving, and offending people once in a while is also a good thing, if you do it in a smart enough way to make them ask relevant questions about everything they've taken for granted.

Bad language probably won't do that, though. However, I don't think this thread was originally about bad language (some other thread was), but about closing threads due to censorship.

As for the children thing, I think people are greatly overestimating parents concerns for their children. Most parents (luckily) don't wrap their children inside a plastic bubble and then isolate them from the rest of the world. And if parents don't have any problem with their kids watching the lates teen-flick or buying a new Eminem album, I'm pretty sure they won't find anything on these forums bad for the kids either. Bad language and a few heated discussions about smoking dope will still seem pretty minor compared to those movies and that music (in case no one's noticed, I'm all for the movies and the music, even if it was never really my cup of tea, I think it's great that they're out there).

That leaves the last argument, that this forum is actually the property of Cannonical, and therefore also needs to reflect Cannonical's views and opinions of right and wrong. Well, actually I have no arguments with that. That's true. It's sort of sad in a "we're all just corporate lackeys" kind of way, but true never the less.

[fuscia]

Most parents (luckily) don't wrap their children inside a plastic bubble and then isolate them from the rest of the world.

i guess you've never been to north carolina.

[rune0077]

i guess you've never been to north carolina.

Guess not. Hope it's not that bad over there!

[fuscia]

Guess not. Hope it's not that bad over there!

parents raise their kids, for most part, in a rather sheltered environment (at least, that seems to be what they're attempting to do), but they're all windows users who have never heard of linux.

[ticopelp]

Thank you for the thoughtful replies. I'm glad this thread didn't veer off into flame war territory or get deleted in and of itself.


The kinds of threads you name as being overmoderated do not stand in any relation to the main purpose of the forum. They might not be superfluous as they give us the chance to talk about things not strictly technical. Still, they are not central to the purpose of this forum.

I understand that, and this is admittedly a minor complaint.


Lastly: why do you lose threads you are interested in? You can susbscribe to threads. You can even set your options so that the forum subscribes you automatically to every thread you post in. You can place your subscription into folders for easier retrieval. You can display your subscribed threads which have been posted to since you have looked at them last.

I do subscribe to threads. I also use the "search for your posts" option to track threads that I've posted in. I noticed that several of the posts I made are simply no longer there to be seen, which indicates to me that the thread itself is in a place where it can't be read by non-moderators. I'm very familiar with vBulletin.


I use these functions and scarcely ever notice when a thread has been moved. I suspect that the threads you are missing have been moved and not deleted. So it is mostly up to you to keep your threads accessible for yourself.

Yes, moved someplace where I cannot see them. I don't see what I could do to "keep those threads accessible for myself" under those circumstances.


Oh, for the record, we do not delete posts. If they seem to have disappeared, it only means the post was moved, either to a different part of the forums, or to the forum jail where only staff can view it.

Well, to the average user of this board, that really amounts to the same thing in the latter case, doesn't it?

To address a couple of other points that came up -- as far as the particular threads that seem to have gone missing; there was a thread entitled "the BEST movies you've ever seen" or something of that nature. I don't remember precisely. It certainly could have been merged with another of the mega-movie threads, but if that were the case, why would my posts suddenly disappear from my own post search? They are nowhere to be found. I didn't subscribe to the thread, but I can only assume it's been moved somewhere where I can no longer view it.

If the thread in question can no longer be found by anyone, that is rather disappointing. :(

Another example of the sort of thing I'm talking about is in this thread:

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=3939896#post3939896

It was simply locked without explanation -- I'm assuming because of some of the immature behavior later in the thread. Personally, I would have rather the troublemakers in question get talked to and discouraged, rather than the entire thread being locked down -- I thought it was an interesting thread, myself.

Again, these are not huge complaints -- I think that by and large this forum is well-moderated and kept friendly -- I appreciate that flame wars aren't allowed to run rampant over the board, because I think they're counterproductive and foolish. I've been on boards where anyone is allowed to flame and there is no moderation at all, and they invariably seem to just descend into chaos. I like that it's not that way here. As I said before, it's just frustrating to me to have my own contributions (again, however trivial) disappear due to the actions of others.

Thanks for the responses and the pointer regarding the resolution center -- I will definitely keep that in mind for the future.

[aysiu]

Another example of the sort of thing I'm talking about is in this thread:

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=3939896#post3939896

It was simply locked without explanation -- I'm assuming because of some of the immature behavior later in the thread. Personally, I would have rather the troublemakers in question get talked to and discouraged, rather than the entire thread being locked down -- I thought it was an interesting thread, myself. I think KiwiNZ made it pretty clear in post #11 (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=3939999#post3939999) why the thread was closed. Clearly the last two posts were plopped in there before Kiwi had a chance to fully close the thread.

[ticopelp]

I think KiwiNZ made it pretty clear in post #11 (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=3939999#post3939999) why the thread was closed. Clearly the last two posts were plopped in there before Kiwi had a chance to fully close the thread.

Ah, my mistake. I didn't see that particular post. I withdraw my comments about that thread.

[popch]

I do subscribe to threads. I also use the "search for your posts" option to track threads that I've posted in. I noticed that several of the posts I made are simply no longer there to be seen, which indicates to me that the thread itself is in a place where it can't be read by non-moderators..

Not meant to pick nits, I just do not fully understand the situation: I have set the forum to automagically enter a subscription to a thread whenever I post in that thread. How, then, do you need to 'search for your posts' ?

I have noticed that under some circumstances the forum fails to find posts which clearly ought to be there because they occur in a search result list. I wonder if it is possible that you are plagued by some software error rather than by over-moderation. Sorry, I know that this is not frightfully useful right now because I can not recall the exact circumstances under which I observed the phenomenon.

[PriceChild]

I have noticed that under some circumstances the forum fails to find posts which clearly ought to be there because they occur in a search result list. I wonder if it is possible that you are plagued by some software error rather than by over-moderation. Sorry, I know that this is not frightfully useful right now because I can not recall the exact circumstances under which I observed the phenomenon.Good idea. Posts in the Backyard won't show up in most searches for example.

[ticopelp]

Not meant to pick nits, I just do not fully understand the situation: I have set the forum to automagically enter a subscription to a thread whenever I post in that thread. How, then, do you need to 'search for your posts' ?

I have noticed that under some circumstances the forum fails to find posts which clearly ought to be there because they occur in a search result list. I wonder if it is possible that you are plagued by some software error rather than by over-moderation. Sorry, I know that this is not frightfully useful right now because I can not recall the exact circumstances under which I observed the phenomenon.

Sorry, let me clarify. I only subscribe manually to threads I'm really interested in following. I don't really care for automatically subscribing, because there are a lot of threads I post in that are very brief and one-shot, and won't ever be referenced again, and my subscription box ends up full of threads that don't really need to be there.

Quite often, I just click on Search > Find All Your Posts to see what discussions I've been casually following. I guess it's certainly possible that this is a software error, but of course I don't have any way to substantiate that either. Obviously, if that turns out to be the case, I'll be pretty embarrassed.

[popch]

I only subscribe manually to threads I'm really interested in following. I don't really care for automatically subscribing, because there are a lot of threads I post in that are very brief and one-shot, and won't ever be referenced again, and my subscription box ends up full of threads that don't really need to be there.
.

I do sympathize with that. I do auto subscribe and prune the subsciptions from time to time. I once suggested here a new feature which would alert you whenever you were quoted in a thread. I would think that this was a meaningful metric which should take care for the one shot posts, such as in a support case where I placed a suggestion. The suggestion did not find an overwhelming majority here and went to suggestion heaven.

... it's certainly possible that this is a software error, but of course I don't have any way to substantiate that either. Obviously, if that turns out to be the case, I'll be pretty embarrassed.

No reason to feel embarassed. How are we users to know whether some behaviour of the forum as a whole was by intent or an artifact? As long as they do not claim it was not a bug but a feature. I will keep my eyes open as to the bug hypthesis.

[ticopelp]

Okay, the thread appears to be back:

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=628997

But it still doesn't appear in my "search posts." It looks as though is a software bug?

I guess I can formally rescind nearly everything I've said here. Uh, Merry Christmas?

[bapoumba]

@ ticopelp: the thread is in the Backyard, and it looks it was created there, as it has not been moved. The BY is not included in the search, as far as I know (I may be wrong here, it's just my experience). It does not come up even specifically searching in the BY.

[LaRoza]

@ ticopelp: the thread is in the Backyard, and it looks it was created there, as it has not been moved. The BY is not included in the search, as far as I know (I may be wrong here, it's just my experience). It does not come up even specifically searching in the BY.

I never had a Backyard topic come up in a search either.

[matthew]

The Backyard is excluded from forum searches, and I believe we even excluded it from search bot crawling.

[markharding557]

i have to agree that this forum is way too over moderated
i recently made some posts on the wine forum and it felt like i was being harrassed
by hikcaricore to the point where he/she sent me an abusive message for simply trying to help people

[hikaricore]

i have to agree that this forum is way too over moderated
i recently made some posts on the wine forum and it felt like i was being harrassed
by hikcaricore to the point where he/she sent me an abusive message for simply trying to help people

To be honest I think I was making a valid point, and I made the effort of PMing you with my concerns.

[regomodo]

This is going to be INCREDIBLY ironic, but I'm going to shift your thread to the Forum Feedback section, so the people who manage the house can take your comments into consideration.

#-o

i'm no grammar whizzkid but isn't it just a funny coincidence?

[Majorix]

I resisted it the first time I saw this thread. But I can't anymore.

I will be the 100th person (Yay I am a winner!) to say that the forums are going harsh on its users.

My story consists of 2 episodes.

1st episode: There is a topic in the Programming section on the Perl programming language. The user tells his first views on Perl. I then go ahead and say that Perl isn't a very good language to learn, and suggest the OP to try other languages too, like Python. Someone (I can guess who that is, may he live in a peaceful forum) reports this post (again that reporting part is just a guess), and I get an official warning for inappropriate language, along with the removal of the post.

2nd episode: Again in the Programming section, someone creates a topic asking about an IDE for Visual Basic 6.0 (appr. 10 years old). I tell that I have to learn this language at school, and that we shouldn't be doing it, as even Microsoft, its producer, no longer supports VB6.0. Today I see the thread bumped, and I check it, to see that my post was removed (this time not even letting me know or anything).

I really don't understand why these posts would be removed.

If it is inappropriate language (like it says on my profile), please explain what an "appropriate" language is. I didn't use any bad words, and one thinks about curse words when he/she first sees "inappropriate language".

If it is flame-baiting (like I got in my PM box after the first incident for an explanation), look at it from this point. If there was no thread asking for a Linux tool on a 10 year old Windows-only programming language, I wouldn't post about my disliking of this language. If there was no thread about views on Perl, a language with a syntax really hard to master for beginners, I wouldn't talk about my own views. Ever been in a conversation? One tells his view, then the other his/her. This is how it goes. So, anything can be flamebaiting. And if there is noone to take this immaturely and flame, then there is no problem. I can't be held responsible for possible childish future acts of any other forum user and get a warning/get a post removed and without even knowing.

I can't believe I am talking about these in a forum for "Humanity For Others", an open-source, free as in libree alternative operating system which has to grow. This is not how you grow, this is not liberty.

Thanks for reading.

[PriceChild]

Majorix could you please go to the resolution center to attempt to resolve these problems?

We all make mistakes, but complaining about it here isn't going to help. If you go through the Resolution Center (subforum to this one) then I'm sure that what is right will be done.

[Majorix]

No we don't need any resolution. What's once done is done. I was just giving an example of how we need to relax a bit.

[PriceChild]

To be blunt... either you think what the moderation team did was right, or it was wrong.

If you want to help us do a better job, and think that what we did was wrong, then you should take it up with us and we'll try to sort things out.

If you don't want to make this a better place, or think that our decisions were the correct ones, then that's the end of this discussion.

[Majorix]

I usually try to stay calm, and therefore I don't want to start a discussion with anybody here, let alone with mods.

So OK, let's say it is the end of it for us.

[kshane]

To be blunt... either you think what the moderation team did was right, or it was wrong.

If you want to help us do a better job, and think that what we did was wrong, then you should take it up with us and we'll try to sort things out.

If you don't want to make this a better place, or think that our decisions were the correct ones, then that's the end of this discussion.

When I have tried, in the past, to talk to a Mod about a decision they've made, it was wasted breath..... The decision was made... Too, bad...

Totally unfair and heavy handed.

Kevin

PS: Price Child: Never had a problem involving you.

[frodon]

When I have tried, in the past, to talk to a Mod about a decision they've made, it was wasted breath..... The decision was made... Too, bad...

Totally unfair and heavy handed.
It is not because a decision with which you disagree is made that the decision is unfair, these are different things.

You are somewhat saying that it is unfair that a mod don't go the way you want or i am misreading your post ?

[aysiu]

While it makes sense to initially talk to a mod about a decision directly, if you feel the mod isn't being fair, you can bring it up to the admins in the Resolution Center, and ultimately bring it up before the Forum Council if even the Resolution Center doesn't resolve the issue to your satisfaction.

[PriceChild]

If you don't think that you are getting a fair hearing in pm with a mod, then the Resolution Center will.

[kevdog]

I did read every post in this thread, however why cant the mods just jail the particular posts they feel as offensive and not jail the whole thread?? I know this capability is available -- its been done to me.

Overall I think the mods do a good job and are actually quite accessible and appear with regularity in many threads -- although most of them are community related.

[bapoumba]

I did read every post in this thread, however why cant the mods just jail the particular posts they feel as offensive and not jail the whole thread?? I know this capability is available -- its been done to me.

Overall I think the mods do a good job and are actually quite accessible and appear with regularity in many threads -- although most of them are community related.

Sometimes, it is difficult to clean a thread and have it start over after an argument. It all depends on the way the discussion went. We usually discuss what to do, and one element is the time and energy we would have to give in for the thread to remain visible. Some cases are just not worth it ;)

[PriceChild]

That's one reason, but I think another, more important one is that whenever we take any kind of action, we're normally thinking about the consequences of it. In this example the consequences being "if I just remove those bad bits.. will the thread be nice... or go sour again?" If its the latter then its easier for everyone to just prevent it happenning.

[Bruce M.]

Maybe I'm too new here to notice, but I don't get the impression that this forum is "over" moderated.

I've just completed reading the 8 pages, and every post, of this thread.
And I must say I admire the moderators for job they do.

As an example this quote: (The BOLD FACE is mine, not meant to "misquote" but rather to point out)

Having regard to the age of our audience is just one influence on moderation. There is many. As you know we cover many cultures and societies ,age groups,ethnic and religious groups. We are obliged to have regard for all of them.

We are also the representatives of Canonical and Ubuntu and associated partners. We therefore are obliged to have regard to their wishes.

So you can imagine the task of moderation of a Forum as large and diverse as this is like tip-toeing in mine fields. And all of this is done by a team of volunteers also from a diverse range of cultures and beliefs.

That first paragraph says it all doesn't it. What is acceptable in one culture isn't in another, add age to it and the equation multiplies, add gender, multiplies again, and on and on with different considerations.

Example: Burping isn't a nice thing to do at the dinner table where I come from. It's just not culturally or morally acceptable, I'd be considered as having low morals and no culture. But "burping" at the dinner table is a compliment to the host in another culture, to the point that it is considered rude if you do NOT burp.

Here are a few more examples:
1. Cultural Differences? Or, are we really that different? (http://www.cnr.berkeley.edu/ucce50/ag-labor/7article/article01.htm)
2. Differences in Cultures (http://www.analytictech.com/mb021/cultural.htm)
3. Comparing Cultural Differences: Mexico with Canada & the United States (http://www.mexconnect.com/mex_/culxcomp.html)
4. Cultural Gestures (http://soc302.tripod.com/soc_302rocks/id6.html)

Another good to read site:
Culture and Conflict (http://www.beyondintractability.org/essay/culture_conflict/)

Even the English language isn't the same in different countries. For example walking into a "drug store" and asking for a rubber will get you different results in England and the USA/Canada.

The "protecting the children" argument...

I think you have missed the point here. Children are brought into this argument because their parents should be deciding what is suitable content for them on the internet, in the same way they decide what is suitable for themselves. We would rather the parents feel ubuntuforums.org is a good place to allow their children to learn about technology, rather than ban their children from it for its mature content.

I agree with PriceChild 101%. "Children" is a factor that should be considered. As one person put it "this is the MTV and American Pie generation." This could be absolutely valid in some societies or cultures. But what about in India, Japan, Russia, China or an Arabian country maybe? I don't think the "American Pie" example is valid, it's just (IMHO) not acceptable in ALL societies. Unless of course the moderators are being restricted to just one group of "cultural and moral upbringing" societies.

Oh wait, they aren't:

We are obliged to have regard for all of them.

Must be really tough to be a moderator at times, I'm sure they don't just "toss a coin" to make decisions, and as such, I take my hat off to you all.

Sorry for being long winded (second time I've said that today)
Bruce