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lespaul_rentals
December 13th, 2007, 08:57 PM
We all were newbies in the world of Linux once. And, let's face it, some of the documentation available is hard as all hell to understand. sudo apt gedit cp mkdir -r -s -h your xorg.conf/bin2018 file is not helpful to new users who may have been Windows geniuses but would like to learn Linux and are not used to the Unix way of things. See, the reason I switched to Linux is so I could learn more about my computer and the software that runs it, not so I could improve my WPM by typing away mumbo-jumbo command jargon. The way most tutorials are laid out does not educate the reader on why something works, but rather commands him or her to follow a pattern of steps in order to achieve an end.

Plus, there is a lack of fun reading in the documentation world. Now, I don't think we should make things childish and have Barney run across the screen while someone is trying to read about aptitude, but we all like reading something that makes us smile and helps us feel like the problem of modprobbing a wireless card is no problem at all. A great example of the perfect balance between professional and informal is Joe Burns' "HTML Goodies". It's one of those technical books that can make you laugh while you read. Why can't there be more helps like that?

Well, enough complaining. I am very busy right now with work, high school, the holidays, and another website I have going. However, I do aim to sometime in the future (hopefully near future) start a forum, website, or both, dedicated to the following:


Helping newbies get their Linux systems running smoothly and working for them
Providing easy, understandable how-to's and lessons
Making RTFM an enjoyable process
Offering compassionate and non-judgemental help to people who cannot understand that which is already documented, and those who are affected by issues not covered.


The help and support section will be done through a forum, which is easy enough to set up. However, I would also like to see just a basic website with tutorials written by staff/members of the site (I already have a couple done, and I'm writing some in my spare time). Not only would this help new users, but people who help others all the time will be able to get recognition for the lessons and guidance they provide. There will also be a links section, which will point them to places they can actually get comprehensive help, the best of the best. It won't be another Google search for them, it will be just what they need a click away.

As I said before, I am busy right now with school, work, a website I already admin...but if anyone is interested in helping the new users among us and would like to contribute, let me know if there is support for such a thing. I won't be able to run the whole show on my own, especially if the forums attract attention. PM me or post in this thread.

Lostincyberspace
December 13th, 2007, 09:07 PM
I would be willing to help. I don't have access to a server right now so I cant help in that aspect. But I know a great deal about online workings. And can translate geek to human.

snickers295
December 13th, 2007, 09:09 PM
i would be glade to help with this but as you said, i can't do it on my own.
i can make a site but can't afford anything above free.
i started linux "Head First in Shallow Water" so i would love to help other newbies.

lespaul_rentals
December 13th, 2007, 09:22 PM
I will worry about the hosting aspect. I have a job which == enough money and already have the main website I work on hosted with MochaHost (Red Hat servers :)). I'm happy with them and prices are fair. To help with the costs I might put a single banner ad on just the main page, but if for some reason it doesn't generate enough revenue to cover the overhead of the site, that's more than okay.

So, hosting's cool. :)

snickers295
December 13th, 2007, 09:33 PM
I will worry about the hosting aspect. I have a job which == enough money and already have the main website I work on hosted with MochaHost (Red Hat servers :)). I'm happy with them and prices are fair. To help with the costs I might put a single banner ad on just the main page, but if for some reason it doesn't generate enough revenue to cover the overhead of the site, that's more than okay.

So, hosting's cool. :)
if its a redhat server then i trust it.
also you might want to try google ads which are free and get good money i hear.
just figure out what you want us to do and will get on it.
whats the domain name?

Lostincyberspace
December 13th, 2007, 09:36 PM
What will it be set up as a wiki? Will Admins be able to get in via ssh?
Just things for thought. If it will be a wiki I could make an image for the main.

snickers295
December 13th, 2007, 09:47 PM
a wiki would be good, or something like this (http://ubuntu-gamedev.wikispaces.com/) (the layout, not the programing stuff.).

lespaul_rentals
December 13th, 2007, 10:08 PM
if its a redhat server then i trust it.
also you might want to try google ads which are free and get good money i hear.
just figure out what you want us to do and will get on it.
whats the domain name?

Thanks for the idea of Google Ads. I am not sure of a domain name yet, I will figure that out whenever this goes through.

Just remember this is still in the idea phase, I am making plans and such but it will be at least a couple of months before I expect to start things up.


What will it be set up as a wiki? Will Admins be able to get in via ssh?
Just things for thought. If it will be a wiki I could make an image for the main.

I will try to see if SSH is supported. I doubt it thought. And as for a wiki, it probably won't be a wiki. I would like to have the main pages of the site centrally administered, and have the forums be the place for user input.

EDIT: I also have another idea for the site: distro reviews and ratings.

snickers295
December 13th, 2007, 10:14 PM
Thanks for the idea of Google Ads. I am not sure of a domain name yet, I will figure that out whenever this goes through.

Just remember this is still in the idea phase, I am making plans and such but it will be at least a couple of months before I expect to start things up.



I will try to see if SSH is supported. I doubt it thought. And as for a wiki, it probably won't be a wiki. I would like to have the main pages of the site centrally administered, and have the forums be the place for user input.

EDIT: I also have another idea for the site: distro reviews and ratings.
the google ads ad thing is on almost all programing sites i go to.
as for the forum, i am great for working the free open-source phpbb forum so i could do that for you.

Lostincyberspace
December 13th, 2007, 10:21 PM
I would go to http://www.opensourcecms.com/ and test some content mangers to see which one you like the most.

omegamike3
December 13th, 2007, 10:52 PM
I would love to help out. I just left a job where I was writing documentation explaining to a group of outsourced n00bs (whose previous job was verizon customer support) how to perform advanced repairs and spyware, virus, and rootkit eradication on windoze machines. For the sake of metaphor, it was like writing the equivalent documentation and how-to's for your mom (no offense to any mothers). So, I've got some experience writing for the 'everyman'. Let me know if that sounds useful. :)

50words
December 13th, 2007, 11:12 PM
Couldn't you meet most of those goals through this form and using the existing Ubuntu wiki? I think you have a good idea, but I think it is better to work within an existing system if you can rather than dilute the pool of available resources.

aysiu
December 13th, 2007, 11:25 PM
Couldn't you meet most of those goals through this form and using the existing Ubuntu wiki? I think you have a good idea, but I think it is better to work within an existing system if you can rather than dilute the pool of available resources. I can't speak for lespaul_rentals, but I will speak for myself.

The Wiki has a particular layout and a writing style to it, and you can't just go in there and revamp it however you like.

Can you imagine if, in the interests of working within the existing system, I deleted more than half the Wiki pages, rewrote the remaining ones completely, changed the links and name pages, redesigned the entire Wiki template, and changed the stylesheet?

Do you think if I did that, the other people working on the Wiki would say, "Great! Thanks for contributing to the Wiki"? No. They'd get pissed and change everything back to the way it was.

This mentality of "Oh, put all the efforts in one place instead of doing your own thing" is against the spirit of open source. Open source is all about forking and cooperation through sharing, not through forced partnership.

Different documentation projects (like different software projects) serve different purposes. The Wiki favors comprehensiveness over accessibility. My own documentation site favors accessibility over comprehensiveness. The MonkeyBlog site about installing anything on Ubuntu seeks to excel at only one thing, and it documents that one thing very well. The Ubuntu Guide is more of a cheatsheet than documentation--a lot of copy and paste commands for easy reference. Different strokes for different folks.

The Wiki is not and cannot be one-stop shopping for new users who want screenshot-heavy idiot-proof documentation on Ubuntu. That model works fine for Wikipedia, because people don't generally browse Wikipedia--they search Wikipedia. I'll use my own experience as an example:

Wikipedia
Yes, I know it's not 100% scientific or always reliable, but if you know absolutely nothing about a topic and just want to familiarize yourself with a little bit of background on that topic, Wikipedia is a great place to go. Let's say I want to know about Macedonia or fetishes or car alarms or Deaf culture. Well, what do I do? I just search Wikipedia for the right keyword (e.g., macedonia), and the relevant article is usually somewhere near the top. I click on the link and see one page explaining it all. Done. That's it.

Ubuntu Wiki
This was my actual experience. I tried to use Ubuntu way back in April 2005. I didn't know anything about it. So I found the official documentation, and I had to click four links deep to find anything remotely useful, and even then it didn't help much. I just found the whole organization (or lack thereof) overwhelming, and none of the tutorials had screenshots, and they all seemed to assume too much, and there was no logical order in which to read them or to link from one to another.

So I gave up on Ubuntu for a month and went to Mepis.

Only later in May did I give Ubuntu another chance, and the Ubuntu Guide won me over. Yes, I was afraid of the command-line. Yes, there were no screenshots. But everything was simple on the Ubuntu Guide. All the commands were on one page. I could just search for a term, and the relevant command to paste into the terminal was right there.

Could the Wiki be improved? Well, it can by babysteps, but I think for an extensive documentation site on a single topic, a Wiki geared at beginners is impractical. Gentoo can get away with it, because it isn't geared at beginners. But documentation, as far as I've seen, cannot be comprehensive, organized, accessible, and written by many different users. Maybe all the Wiki advocates can prove me wrong by working together to actually make the Wiki new-user-friendly, but I haven't seen it happen in the past two and a half years, and I doubt it ever will.

snickers295
December 14th, 2007, 12:26 AM
I can't speak for lespaul_rentals, but I will speak for myself.

The Wiki has a particular layout and a writing style to it, and you can't just go in there and revamp it however you like.

Can you imagine if, in the interests of working within the existing system, I deleted more than half the Wiki pages, rewrote the remaining ones completely, changed the links and name pages, redesigned the entire Wiki template, and changed the stylesheet?

Do you think if I did that, the other people working on the Wiki would say, "Great! Thanks for contributing to the Wiki"? No. They'd get pissed and change everything back to the way it was.

This mentality of "Oh, put all the efforts in one place instead of doing your own thing" is against the spirit of open source. Open source is all about forking and cooperation through sharing, not through forced partnership.

Different documentation projects (like different software projects) serve different purposes. The Wiki favors comprehensiveness over accessibility. My own documentation site favors accessibility over comprehensiveness. The MonkeyBlog site about installing anything on Ubuntu seeks to excel at only one thing, and it documents that one thing very well. The Ubuntu Guide is more of a cheatsheet than documentation--a lot of copy and paste commands for easy reference. Different strokes for different folks.

The Wiki is not and cannot be one-stop shopping for new users who want screenshot-heavy idiot-proof documentation on Ubuntu. That model works fine for Wikipedia, because people don't generally browse Wikipedia--they search Wikipedia. I'll use my own experience as an example:

Wikipedia
Yes, I know it's not 100% scientific or always reliable, but if you know absolutely nothing about a topic and just want to familiarize yourself with a little bit of background on that topic, Wikipedia is a great place to go. Let's say I want to know about Macedonia or fetishes or car alarms or Deaf culture. Well, what do I do? I just search Wikipedia for the right keyword (e.g., macedonia), and the relevant article is usually somewhere near the top. I click on the link and see one page explaining it all. Done. That's it.

Ubuntu Wiki
This was my actual experience. I tried to use Ubuntu way back in April 2005. I didn't know anything about it. So I found the official documentation, and I had to click four links deep to find anything remotely useful, and even then it didn't help much. I just found the whole organization (or lack thereof) overwhelming, and none of the tutorials had screenshots, and they all seemed to assume too much, and there was no logical order in which to read them or to link from one to another.

So I gave up on Ubuntu for a month and went to Mepis.

Only later in May did I give Ubuntu another chance, and the Ubuntu Guide won me over. Yes, I was afraid of the command-line. Yes, there were no screenshots. But everything was simple on the Ubuntu Guide. All the commands were on one page. I could just search for a term, and the relevant command to paste into the terminal was right there.

Could the Wiki be improved? Well, it can by babysteps, but I think for an extensive documentation site on a single topic, a Wiki geared at beginners is impractical. Gentoo can get away with it, because it isn't geared at beginners. But documentation, as far as I've seen, cannot be comprehensive, organized, accessible, and written by many different users. Maybe all the Wiki advocates can prove me wrong by working together to actually make the Wiki new-user-friendly, but I haven't seen it happen in the past two and a half years, and I doubt it ever will.
i agree with you.
i started linux last year with suse 7.3 (my grandpa got the old thing from work) and it was like riding a plane blind-folded and then getting droped in a foreign country and having to learn there language.
then for christmas i got a xandros disk and loved it until micro$oft started messing around with them and them here i am with ubuntu.
thats why i think this is a great idea.

Erdaron
December 14th, 2007, 12:52 AM
As a n00b myself, I completely support this. I'm fairly comfortable with computers, and the first few weeks with Ubuntu were still a pretty mystical experience. And half the tutorials / guides made no sense to me.

This project could work in conjunction with the existing forums and the Ubuntu wiki.

For example, the new project's website could have a categorical tree of hardware (For example, networking / wireless / Linksys WMP54G could be a branch), along the way linking to existing threads and articles that are pre-screened by project admins. Kind of like a ready-made search.

(This is based on my personal experience that simply using search functions on forums can be frustrating - you have to make your way through threads that were never answered, or derailed, or only mention your query accidentally, or are for a different distro / release.)

I'm a newbie, but I would love to contribute in some way.

lespaul_rentals
December 14th, 2007, 05:29 AM
I would love to help out. I just left a job where I was writing documentation explaining to a group of outsourced n00bs (whose previous job was verizon customer support) how to perform advanced repairs and spyware, virus, and rootkit eradication on windoze machines. For the sake of metaphor, it was like writing the equivalent documentation and how-to's for your mom (no offense to any mothers). So, I've got some experience writing for the 'everyman'. Let me know if that sounds useful. :)

Sweet! :)


Couldn't you meet most of those goals through this form and using the existing Ubuntu wiki? I think you have a good idea, but I think it is better to work within an existing system if you can rather than dilute the pool of available resources.

aysiu summed up my reasons perfectly.


As a n00b myself, I completely support this. I'm fairly comfortable with computers, and the first few weeks with Ubuntu were still a pretty mystical experience. And half the tutorials / guides made no sense to me.

This project could work in conjunction with the existing forums and the Ubuntu wiki.

For example, the new project's website could have a categorical tree of hardware (For example, networking / wireless / Linksys WMP54G could be a branch), along the way linking to existing threads and articles that are pre-screened by project admins. Kind of like a ready-made search.

(This is based on my personal experience that simply using search functions on forums can be frustrating - you have to make your way through threads that were never answered, or derailed, or only mention your query accidentally, or are for a different distro / release.)

I'm a newbie, but I would love to contribute in some way.

That's a great idea! We could have hardware reviews, and have them all sorted by category and the like! I.E., ATI Radeon video card, used with which particular distro, how it performed, what you did to get it working, stuff like that! Just think...if we get some submissions the site would become a reputable resource.

And I don't care what level you are...noob, veteran, whatever...all I care about is the willingness to help!


as for the forum, i am great for working the free open-source phpbb forum so i could do that for you.

Awesome! I would be honored.

Wow guys, I am very pleased with the response this has had. Thanks for the support. Now I am excited for this. I can't wait to find some spare time and start blueprinting. :D

Does anyone know of a site template or some server-side applications that would allow for moderated submissions for things like hardware, distro reviews, and the like? Perhaps if it could also sort them based on category? I am looking around for one now, feel free to shoot out ideas.

Lostincyberspace
December 14th, 2007, 05:47 AM
Does anyone know of a site template or some server-side applications that would allow for moderated submissions for things like hardware, distro reviews, and the like? Perhaps if it could also sort them based on category? I am looking around for one now, feel free to shoot out ideas.
Check out the content manager site that I posted earlier there are a lot of different one there to choose from and all are php mysql based. No funky perl or python ones.

lespaul_rentals
December 14th, 2007, 05:50 AM
Am doing right now, thanks. Any you recommend?

siciliancasanova
December 14th, 2007, 05:58 AM
I'm willing to help out. Wanted to do this myself a while back but had no time to do it all myself. I have a server right now. In two weeks I will have my own web server I will be hosting my sites off of sitting next to me.

Let me know if this interests you or not if you've already got a set up.

I would recommend using Drupal for an out of the box solution that we won't have to spend months developing.

If you have months to develop. I would suggest we build our own CMS with RoR.

But Drupal is the way I would go.

Lostincyberspace
December 14th, 2007, 05:58 AM
Am doing right now, thanks. Any you recommend?
Knowledge tree under miscellaneous looks pretty good.

snickers295
December 14th, 2007, 02:27 PM
as for the docs, are they going to be just documentation or are they going to be some howtos/guides mixed in with it because i can write howtos and guides pretty well.

n3tfury
December 14th, 2007, 02:43 PM
Helping newbies get their Linux systems running smoothly and working for them
Providing easy, understandable how-to's and lessons
Making RTFM an enjoyable process
Offering compassionate and non-judgemental help to people who cannot understand that which is already documented, and those who are affected by issues not covered.




sorry, but i don't understand how this is any different than this place.

omegamike3
December 14th, 2007, 03:08 PM
sorry, but i don't understand how this is any different than this place.

The idea is to give it some structure. The forums are great, but a lot of times, especially for beginners, you can end up digging for hours trying to find some simple answers, just because they haven't been discussed in a few months.

n3tfury
December 14th, 2007, 03:24 PM
dunno - the search feature works wonders.

snickers295
December 14th, 2007, 03:35 PM
dunno - the search feature works wonders.
well for people like me, signing up for a forum id is your last resort because you just want straight answers.
thats why i like the idea so much.

pedro_orange
December 14th, 2007, 03:35 PM
To the OP:

I myself am relative n00b to linux and I'm learning stuff as I go, googling most of the time, reading books etc.
I have recently got myself some webspace/domain and apart from hosting my old uni work on it - it's doing bugger all. My intention was to document things I learnt about linux as I was going along to keep as a reference for myself.
But if you'd like we could work together and add some structure etc to it - and who knows, I might actually learn something.

:lolflag:

Send me a private msg if you're interested

snickers295
December 14th, 2007, 05:45 PM
will you gather docs and howtos from across the web or write them from scratch or both?

DrMega
December 14th, 2007, 05:59 PM
I think its an excellent idea. I had thought of something similar my self but I have neither the time not the Linux expertise to do it well.

In terms of covering your overheads such as hosting etc, you could maybe sign up to some referal programs, you know the kind of thing, a book seller advertises their Linux Guide on your site, and if someone clicks through and buys it then you get a cut.

You could also ask for donations. A PayPal account is free to set up and not difficult to integrate into your site.

The only risk though (and the same is true of this and every other forum) is that it is easy for the contributors to forget that something which is simple to them is totally alien to others. For example it is no good advising someone to "run this command" if they don't even know yet that they need to open a terminal window. To this end, you really need on your "staff" a bunch of newbie testers/proof readers. I can help out there.

n3tfury
December 14th, 2007, 06:21 PM
well for people like me, signing up for a forum id is your last resort because you just want straight answers.
thats why i like the idea so much.


The help and support section will be done through a forum

he'll probably do the same thing.

boast
December 14th, 2007, 06:34 PM
create a basrc with aliases for noobs

so they can use 'sudo delete file'
'sudo create folder'
'sudo edit file'

i dunno.. just an idea

lespaul_rentals
December 14th, 2007, 06:35 PM
will you gather docs and howtos from across the web or write them from scratch or both?

I plan on trying to write most of them from scratch. Other times, if I come across an article or how-to on the web that I think is good but not perfectly to my liking, I will salvage it and turn it into one of my own. Obviously though, I intend to use as many as possible that have been written by myself and the "staff" of the site. There will also be links to articles that others have written, in case we somehow did not help.


The only risk though (and the same is true of this and every other forum) is that it is easy for the contributors to forget that something which is simple to them is totally alien to others. For example it is no good advising someone to "run this command" if they don't even know yet that they need to open a terminal window. To this end, you really need on your "staff" a bunch of newbie testers/proof readers. I can help out there.

That'd be great. When we get up and running if you would like to help out that way I would be happy.

snickers295
December 14th, 2007, 06:39 PM
i have been working on a "How to use the terminal" howto. you can use it when its done.

Erdaron
December 14th, 2007, 07:11 PM
The only risk though (and the same is true of this and every other forum) is that it is easy for the contributors to forget that something which is simple to them is totally alien to others. For example it is no good advising someone to "run this command" if they don't even know yet that they need to open a terminal window. To this end, you really need on your "staff" a bunch of newbie testers/proof readers. I can help out there.

I imagine there could be a lot of cross-linking within articles. "Run this command" could link to an article on using CLI.

Also, it'd be nice to have a description of CLI commands that isn't just a copy of the man pages. Some examples would be nice. This could be a good start.

saj0577
December 14th, 2007, 07:19 PM
Do any of you people have a good knowledge of a second language (or possibly your first language is not English) as you want to be able to try and make them available to as many people as possible.

If you need any help with the coding of the website and/or the content just pop me a personal message and id be more then happy to help.Also what you may want to do is maybe get a instant messenger working with it as sometimes rather then using forums it is much easier to talk with someone in real time to help fix their problems.

Saj

Bruce M.
December 14th, 2007, 07:23 PM
I agree with DrMega about the newbie testers/proofreaders.

After all, if a newbie can read and understand what's what then it helps other newbies. They would read it and think, "Something is missing between step 3 and 4." To put it into something like G. Orwell's "1984" it would become "NewbieSpeak"

Someone with years of Linux experience might read the same instructions and would instinctively know how to fill in the obvious blanks, but may not recognize that a newbie would need to be told about them.

So yes, I'd like to volunteer to help in the test/proofread area as well.

Change and apply the KISS principle: (I don't like the original because I do not consider myself stupid) Keep It Stupidly Simple (but complete)

Another suggestion would be to explain two things very early in the hierarchical scheme of things:

1. Remove the *fear* of the Terminal, a simple education thing. After all it's like the RUN command in Windows, only more powerful; and
2. An explanation of what the Manual, "man", command is and how and why to use it.

I was using Ubuntu for a month before I discovered it and I'm still not knowledgeable about all the commands it has.

PM me for my email if want.

aysiu
December 14th, 2007, 07:24 PM
Do any of you people have a good knowledge of a second language (or possibly your first language is not English) as you want to be able to try and make them available to as many people as possible. I don't think you have to.

I just went ahead and created my own documentation site in English. English is the only language I know. Then, after a while, when people found the site useful, I was approached by various people about translating Psychocats into other languages and I, of course, said "Yes."

snickers295
December 14th, 2007, 07:32 PM
the cross-linking thing sounds good to me.
i don't know a second language.
this newb test does to because all you have to do is post "newbs wanted" here and you got it.

omegamike3
December 14th, 2007, 07:46 PM
Do any of you people have a good knowledge of a second language (or possibly your first language is not English) as you want to be able to try and make them available to as many people as possible.

In the short term, if we're unable to translate by hand, perhaps there could be links to run the page through babelfish or the like to at least given them some idea of what the page is say?

santaslittlehelper
December 14th, 2007, 07:48 PM
Sounds great too me.

I just what to point out two things said by the OP, I believe would make a real difference for a site.


The way most tutorials are laid out does not educate the reader on why something works, but rather commands him or her to follow a pattern of steps in order to achieve an end..

This is so true, many times you just get the how's but never the why's, I understand that you could dig deeper yourself, but I know nothing better then to have read a howto and not only have reached my goals but at the same time have learned a bit more then “just” copy/paste.


Making RTFM an enjoyable process.
That's a lot too ask :)



At first what came too mind was - http://www.ubuntugeek.com/ - but I see there's lots of idéers and I with the more the merrier.

If nothing else you'll have someone to test out all those howto's :)

omegamike3
December 14th, 2007, 07:54 PM
I definitely agree with santaslittlehelper and lespaul_rentals. There isn't a whole lot of theory behind many help sites and documentations, which has always bothered me. That always seemed to be one of the things that kept *nix so 1337, was that things can always be shown to you or done for you, but no one could tell you why you're doing the things you're doing. There is definitely a need for teaching n00bs how to fish, as it were.

Lostincyberspace
December 14th, 2007, 08:02 PM
When doing a computer documentation for newbs you need to make sure you explain what is going on in any commands piece by piece.

Like this:


cd /etc/xorg/
cd = change directory.
/etc/xorg = The directory you are changing to.


It makes it much easier to work with it later if you know how to use it and what its doing.

omegamike3
December 14th, 2007, 08:08 PM
When doing a computer documentation for newbs you need to make sure you explain what is going on in any commands piece by piece.

Like this:


cd /etc/xorg/
cd = change directory.
/etc/xorg = The directory you are changing to.


It makes it much easier to work with it later if you know how to use it and what its doing.

Agreed. But even so, a nice listing of commands and the theory behind them would be great for n00bs.

aysiu
December 14th, 2007, 08:09 PM
That sounds great in theory, but in practice the tutorial can get really long quickly with explanations for every little part of every single command.

omegamike3
December 14th, 2007, 08:16 PM
It would get excessive if you explained every little thing, yes. But not if it had enough just for beginners. They don't need to know the complete inner workings of everything right off the bat, there are plenty of other resources around for that sort of thing, including the man pages. I mean it as just a step more beyond the quick mention of 'this command is doing this' in the middle of an explanation. It's just an idea.

lvleph
December 14th, 2007, 08:22 PM
When doing a computer documentation for newbs you need to make sure you explain what is going on in any commands piece by piece.

Like this:


cd /etc/xorg/
cd = change directory.
/etc/xorg = The directory you are changing to.


It makes it much easier to work with it later if you know how to use it and what its doing.

If it is a wiki, those commands and files could be linked to, that way the how to doesn't get over crowded.

DrMega
December 14th, 2007, 09:00 PM
When doing a computer documentation for newbs you need to make sure you explain what is going on in any commands piece by piece.

Like this:


cd /etc/xorg/
cd = change directory.
/etc/xorg = The directory you are changing to.


It makes it much easier to work with it later if you know how to use it and what its doing.

OP have commented that it could get very long if you detail every little point. I agree, but if 'cd' was a hyperlink to a page that summarised the most common commands, and maybe the parameter (in this case "/etc/xorg/") was a link to a page summarising the directory structure, then the info is there if the reader needs it, but if they are beyond the the absolute beginnings, then they just see the command in an uncluttered way.

An idea I had was to do a side by side comparison of common tasks that you might do regardless of your system. For example, a bunch of super basic graphical how to's such as creating a letter in Open Office on Ubuntu down the left hand side of the page, and Word on XP down the right hand side. Same deal with sending an email, downloading images from your digital camera etc.

If that's something of interest I volunteer to help out with that sort of thing also.

Feel free to PM me if you think I could help (I can create web pages etc so I could do some nice graphical basic how to's).

Lostincyberspace
December 14th, 2007, 09:17 PM
I think it really depends on how long the command is. If its really long like some I have used it should be taken care of right then and there. But simple ones like the ones I posted don't really need to be explained in the main text.

miggols99
December 14th, 2007, 09:33 PM
I have started making a simple linux/Arch Linux website for newbies. It's in my signature. I'm just not sure what else to put onto it though...

snickers295
December 14th, 2007, 09:41 PM
its kinda hard making something for newbs.

cd /etc/xorg
cd = change directory.
/etc/xorg = The directory you are changing to.
thats looks great.

popch
December 14th, 2007, 09:45 PM
OP have commented that it could get very long if you detail every little point. I agree, but if 'cd' was a hyperlink to a page that summarised the most common commands, and maybe the parameter (in this case "/etc/xorg/") was a link to a page summarising the directory structure, then the info is there if the reader needs it, but if they are beyond the the absolute beginnings, then they just see the command in an uncluttered way..

Placing the explanations on another side would make referring to them very cumbersome. Also, the intended audience (the noobs) would easily lose track of their position within the script.

Since the project is to be done in the web, why not annotate the 'trivial' commands with alt texts that pop up when you place the cursor over the command?

But then, you could use a smallish frame at the bottom of the page where you can display a synopsis of any command which the user clicks on.

That would keep the page reasonably clean.

It would also leave enough space to add higher level comments which do not simply state what a command does (in general terms) but which gives the reason why it is needed in a particular place.

popch
December 14th, 2007, 09:47 PM
its kinda hard making something for newbs.
what we could do would be something a little more like this


cd /etc/xorg *
*Change Directory directory your changing to
cd /etc/xorg


Please, please, don't.

It is not only very hard to produce in HTML and to read, it will also confuse any reader who is not already familiar with the general syntax of the commands given.

Lostincyberspace
December 14th, 2007, 10:00 PM
@snickers: Huh? That really is confusing. And I know exactly how it works.

DrMega
December 14th, 2007, 10:07 PM
I think it would help to ask ourselves what delayed our switch to Linux, or what issues we had at first. Here's my go.

1. I incorrectly believed that as there are hundreds of distros, and a fair number of desktop environments, that each would need their own implementation of a piece of software, so it was impossible to decide which distro would have the best software.

2. I incorrectly believed that if I wanted to install additional software, I'd have to compile it from source every time.

3. Knowing that Linux is in some way connected with Unix, and that Unix runs on monster servers, I incorrectly believed that it would be a nightmare to configure it to run on a PC, and to administer onec it was installed on there.

ISSUES WHEN I FIRST MADE THE SWITCH

1. I made a couple of uninformed choices that were not right for me before I discovered Ubuntu. This reinforced my belief that Linux was a nightmare to use and nearly made me give up.

2. I didn't realise there was a truly easy way to install the ATI display drivers (in Dapper it was just a package to get from Synaptic and then one line to change in xorg.conf if I recall correctly). I ended up recompiling my kernel and the avoid any automatic updates in case in broke my machine :)

3. I was disappointed to find that I couldn't access my Windows partition. I later found a how to on the net that solved that problem.

4. I had no idea where everything lived within the directory structure (and still not entirely sure now).

5. When I found tips and advice on the net that give a set of commands to run, in some cases I had no idea what was going on. For example:


glxinfo | grep rendering

I knew that this would tell me if direct rendering was on or not, and having worked with Unix very briefly many many years ago I guessed that the output from a command called glxinfo was being piped to another command called grep, I had no real idea what was happening beyond that, or what to do with the output once I saw it.

I think a newbie's guide to Linux should not be a guide to bash commands (although some of the more important ones should of course be introduced), it might be more helpful if it it took the format of something like:

....I want to do ....

1. Click on the Applications menu, choose ..... This launches whatever, which you can use to ....

...Overly simplified I know, but I think you can see what I'm trying to say.

Lostincyberspace
December 14th, 2007, 10:14 PM
I think in the beginning we should kind of base them of the man pages but dumb them down a lot and make it more of a read instead of a resource page.

snickers295
December 15th, 2007, 12:00 AM
sorry bout my last post, i made that in OpenOffice and it looked a lot better but it wouldn't work in html so just forget i said that ok?
man pages??? i think it would be great to make it like "Linux For Dummies" i read it and it made a lot more sense like it was coming from a person who was a newb like i was.
i guess we should write it down then make it make sense to use back when we first switched

popch
December 15th, 2007, 12:03 AM
sorry bout my last post, i made that in OpenOffice and it looked a lot better but it wouldn't work in html so just forget i said that ok?

No reason to be shy about drafts and experiments. If no one made any errors, nothing would get done at all.

Lostincyberspace
December 15th, 2007, 05:10 AM
@snickers: Its good you did it we now know not to do that. before we even get started.
I meant like the man pages in showing the set up of the command and explaining the options in a table.

lespaul_rentals
December 15th, 2007, 08:34 AM
Wow guys, thanks for the support and great ideas. 6 pages. Dude, sweet!

I am going to draw out a little blueprint idea for how I would like the main layout/wiki to look. I'll post in a while.

Erdaron
December 15th, 2007, 09:28 AM
Since the project is to be done in the web, why not annotate the 'trivial' commands with alt texts that pop up when you place the cursor over the command?

That's exactly what I was thinking.

Maybe mouse-over could give a brief hint as to what that particular command does. Clicking on it would take you to a more detailed page?

lespaul_rentals
December 15th, 2007, 09:32 AM
Maybe mouse-over could give a brief hint as to what that particular command does.

Alt.

lespaul_rentals
December 15th, 2007, 09:59 AM
Here we go, a blueprint:

http://www.maj.com/gallery/silverscythe/misc/blueprint.png

These are not exact category names, only a rough draft. Subject to change.

I've also discovered the following CMS templates that I really like the looks of:

Postnuke
Bitweaver
1024

Are these good or bad? Is there another one that would be able to fit the idea I have?

snickers295
December 15th, 2007, 04:07 PM
i don't think that mouseover is a good idea because if they print the pages out or save them to a text file they can't see what the commands mean.
LOVE that layout.:):):):)
a "Applications" selection should be in the tutorials and guides and as i said a phpbb is easy to set up and i would be glade to do it.
1024 looks best to me.

DrMega
December 15th, 2007, 08:14 PM
Good layout. The only think I would be tempted to add is a an "Intro to Linux" link (or something like that). It would take you to a single page giving an absolutely massively simplified summary of what Linux is. Remember that some people are not even sure of that point.

Maybe a little block diagram showing the Linux kernel at the bottom, with X sat on top of it, and a desktop environment sat on top of that. Maybe explain each layer is super simple terms.

As some people are totally none techy (not just new to Linux), maybe explain that Linux is an operating system much as Windows is, but it has its own suite of applications etc.

Maybe attempt to clear up some misconceptions, perhaps pointing out that for the most part, an app intended for one distro will work fine on another etc, that it is not just uber geeks (I use the term affectionately, if anyone is an uber geek please don't take offence) that use it, and that it can do all the things that Windows can (though maybe avoid the politics and keep it purely objective).

recursive prophet
December 15th, 2007, 08:57 PM
I think a newbies website project is a GREAT idea. I also liked Les Pauls attempt to consider its structure. I can tell you, after spending a few days reading this site, I knew I wasn't ready for Linux, or perhaps it isn't ready for me. A forum just for beginners could be the answer.

DrMega
December 15th, 2007, 08:59 PM
I was looking to see if anything like this already existed, and I found this pile of rubbish:

http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,2102876,00.asp

... This is exactly the kind of article that put me off switching to Linux for quite a long time, and since I have switched, what is described in that article certainly isn't my experience.

aysiu
December 15th, 2007, 10:40 PM
I was looking to see if anything like this already existed Well, it may not be exactly the same as what lespaul_rentals is creating, but my tutorials site is intended to speak to new users:
http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntu

lespaul_rentals
December 15th, 2007, 11:14 PM
Well, it may not be exactly the same as what lespaul_rentals is creating, but my tutorials site is intended to speak to new users:
http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntu

You have a very good page, thank you for helping the community.

Vadi
December 15th, 2007, 11:21 PM
I don't think you should use forums. There are Absolute Beginners Forums here for that - I know I certainly wouldn't go make yet another forum account :/

Or at least, have the forums link link to the AB section of these forums.

snickers295
December 15th, 2007, 11:29 PM
I don't think you should use forums. There are Absolute Beginners Forums here for that - I know I certainly wouldn't go make yet another forum account :/

Or at least, have the forums link link to the AB section of these forums.
well you don't have to.
lets not make it too much like the ubuntu forums.

lespaul_rentals
December 16th, 2007, 01:45 AM
I don't think you should use forums. There are Absolute Beginners Forums here for that - I know I certainly wouldn't go make yet another forum account :/

Or at least, have the forums link link to the AB section of these forums.

No, I am not going to do that. The point is to have a totally seperate forum that myself and the staff manages. This is not "Ubuntu for Newbies," this is "Linux for Newbies." Sure, some of the lessons and tutorials will be written from my experiences in Ubuntu, but I want to keep it open for everyone from all distros.

Not to mention, I do not think the Absolute Beginners forum is 100% perfect (NO OFFENSE TO THE GREAT PEOPLE WHO RUN THIS PLACE). There seems to be some elitism that, however rare, manifests itself. Also, we cannot run this as a fork of Ubuntu.com. This will be a completely seperate project. However, there will be links to the Ubuntu Forums on the site.

Category ideas, anyone?

As you can see a few posts above, my blueprint is coming together. That is what I would like the site to look like, but the list of main categories needs to be completed. here's what I have so far:

Home

News

Tutorials and Guides
~ Command Line Basics (exactly what it says)
~ Understanding Linux (questions such as: "what is /etc/ for?" "what is a kernel?" "is Linux really secure?" would be answered here. This section could also be used to dispell FUD that the trolls like to spread around)
~ Device Tutorials (how to get stuff like wireless cards, USB hard drives, portable audio players, etc. working)
~ Media Tutorials (how to get videos, music, YouTube working)
~ Configuration Tutorials (how to get fancy desktop backgrounds, kicker backgrounds, faster performance, etc.)

Reviews
~ Distro Reviews (Linux Mint? OpenSuSE? Ubuntu? Slackware? -- how were your experiences?)
~ Hardware Reviews (did this Linksys WLAN card work for you, if so what did you have to do to get it working?)

Forums (this will be a phpBB forum, seperate from the core site itself)

Submit Content (there needs to be a way for people to submit reviews, tutorials, etc. and have them go into a moderation queue for us to sift through, fine-tune, and finally upload to the site)

Links (external links to other helpful sites)

If anyone has any suggestions for additions as far as categories go, let me know.

As far as content goes, we need to have a decent core data pool, enough of a knowledge base that people will come to our site and at least get something out of it. If, at debut, we have only a few tutorials that help no one, our site will soon fade away into nothingness. Thus, any submissions you can offer are appreciated.

FOR THE FORUMS:

So far I have snickers295 and fedex1993 willing to help me out with the setup of the forums. I too know how to work with phpBB but I might not have the time to fully administer it so their help will be much appreciated when we get going.

snickers295
December 16th, 2007, 01:59 AM
Submit Content (there needs to be a way for people to submit reviews, tutorials, etc. and have them go into a moderation queue for us to sift through, fine-tune, and finally upload to the site)
maybe set up a gmail account for each one sorting the content and make a javascript form that sends the submissions to those email accounts and there should be a majority vote on what content goes on the site.
there should be groups of people to manage content, work forums, manage site etc, so that everything is organized.

Lostincyberspace
December 16th, 2007, 06:49 AM
~ "what is /etc/ for?"
Thats easy, its the catch all of Linux you put stuff their when you don't know what to do with it. :lol:
And I will help with what ever you want. I have experience setting up many different content managers and working them after the initial set up is done.

macogw
December 16th, 2007, 10:09 AM
Sweet! :)
That's a great idea! We could have hardware reviews, and have them all sorted by category and the like! I.E., ATI Radeon video card, used with which particular distro, how it performed, what you did to get it working, stuff like that! Just think...if we get some submissions the site would become a reputable resource.

Or, you can link to and contribute to the Ubuntu Hardware Compatibility Listing aka UbuntuHCL.org

macogw
December 16th, 2007, 10:24 AM
i don't think that mouseover is a good idea because if they print the pages out or save them to a text file they can't see what the commands mean.
LOVE that layout.:):):):)
a "Applications" selection should be in the tutorials and guides and as i said a phpbb is easy to set up and i would be glade to do it.
1024 looks best to me.
You can make it show the title attribute on abbreviation and acronym tags when printing if you follow the part at the bottom of this site:
http://www.transmissionzero.co.uk/computing/css-for-printing/

lespaul_rentals
December 16th, 2007, 08:46 PM
Or, you can link to and contribute to the Ubuntu Hardware Compatibility Listing aka UbuntuHCL.org

Why do people keep suggesting such things? This is going to be a seperate project. I will link to it under the "External Links" section, but this isn't a fork of Ubuntu...it's a NON DISTRO-SPECIFIC project.

Erdaron
December 17th, 2007, 09:07 AM
Some more thoughts:

A section reviewing desktops / window managers. Something outlining pros / cons of a few and explaining ways of setting them up on different distros.

Maybe a guide request / suggestion box of some sort?

Explanation of Synaptic Packet Manger (and its Red Hat version - yum, is it?) as its own and special topic. Also, a general discussion of how to install new programs in Linux - both through packet managers and via compiling source code.

I imagine many people considering Linux are not compute-savvy in general, not just in the ways of Linux. So I'm suggesting a flow chart with things like, the kernel, window manager, devices, drivers, and so forth. I like charts.

snickers295
December 17th, 2007, 02:09 PM
You can make it show the title attribute on abbreviation and acronym tags when printing if you follow the part at the bottom of this site:
http://www.transmissionzero.co.uk/computing/css-for-printing/
hmm, didn't know you could do that.
is anyone good with getting the site into google and yahoo?

DrMega
December 17th, 2007, 03:00 PM
hmm, didn't know you could do that.
is anyone good with getting the site into google and yahoo?

That's the easy part. You just need to link to it from sites that are already in google. A good place to start would be to update your signature block on this and any other forums you post on, to include a link to your site.

The link text should contain the main keywords you expect people to search for to find your site. So it would be something like:


<a href="your url">Linux for newbies</a>

DrMega
December 17th, 2007, 05:32 PM
Ok, my previous posting was a little bit vague.

There are a number of things to do to build up a good search engine position. Search engine optimisation is a subject on its own, but here are some key points.

1. Don't pay for search engine positions - Some people claim they can make your site appear first if you give them money. As google is always changing its algorithm, nobody can guarantee anything in this respect.

2. STARTING WITH THE SITE ITS SELF: Make sure, as far as possible, each page links to each other page, and that the link text contains important keywords. This makes it easy for spiders to crawl the site and the link text will be used (at least in part) for indexing.

3. Think about the wording of titles etc, so that they are descriptive and meaningful to us humans, but at the same time contain keywords.

4. If you put any images in, use the ALT property of the IMG tag to describe the image. This is important for accessibility (text only browsers, screen readers etc) but it is also another place to put your keywords in.

5. If you can, use CSS for positioning instead of tables etc. This makes the page lighter weight, easier to maintain and easier for spiders to crawl.

6. Have a links page, but only include relevant links, and add a note asking other webmasters if they would like to exchange links. Include an email address so other webmasters can contact you re link swaps, but use an email address that you've set up exclusively for that purpose as it will get spammed. Include suggested HTML code for their link to you, in case they are too lazy to write it themselves.

6. OUTSIDE THE SITE: Get as many RELEVANT links to your site as possible. This forum would be a good place to start with that.

7. Ask everybody on here if they have sites that they could add a link to.

8. Update the site regularly, so google's spider knows it is very active.

9. Review your server logs to see where people are coming from, and what keywords they are using. Keep this in mind when writing new content, but don't get too hung up on.

10. Tell everyone what you've done. This thread is great start, but if your a member of other forums, maybe add a thread there inviting people to look at your site.

lespaul_rentals
December 17th, 2007, 06:37 PM
Ok, my previous posting was a little bit vague.

There are a number of things to do to build up a good search engine position. Search engine optimisation is a subject on its own, but here are some key points.

1. Don't pay for search engine positions - Some people claim they can make your site appear first if you give them money. As google is always changing its algorithm, nobody can guarantee anything in this respect.

2. STARTING WITH THE SITE ITS SELF: Make sure, as far as possible, each page links to each other page, and that the link text contains important keywords. This makes it easy for spiders to crawl the site and the link text will be used (at least in part) for indexing.

3. Think about the wording of titles etc, so that they are descriptive and meaningful to us humans, but at the same time contain keywords.

4. If you put any images in, use the ALT property of the IMG tag to describe the image. This is important for accessibility (text only browsers, screen readers etc) but it is also another place to put your keywords in.

5. If you can, use CSS for positioning instead of tables etc. This makes the page lighter weight, easier to maintain and easier for spiders to crawl.

6. Have a links page, but only include relevant links, and add a note asking other webmasters if they would like to exchange links. Include an email address so other webmasters can contact you re link swaps, but use an email address that you've set up exclusively for that purpose as it will get spammed. Include suggested HTML code for their link to you, in case they are too lazy to write it themselves.

6. OUTSIDE THE SITE: Get as many RELEVANT links to your site as possible. This forum would be a good place to start with that.

7. Ask everybody on here if they have sites that they could add a link to.

8. Update the site regularly, so google's spider knows it is very active.

9. Review your server logs to see where people are coming from, and what keywords they are using. Keep this in mind when writing new content, but don't get too hung up on.

10. Tell everyone what you've done. This thread is great start, but if your a member of other forums, maybe add a thread there inviting people to look at your site.

Great list. Number 11: meta tags. ;)

DrMega
December 17th, 2007, 08:01 PM
Great list. Number 11: meta tags. ;)

Good point, but I have heard that some search engines don't read the meta tags, but as long as they are not overkill, they are useful.

I put in the point about overkill on the meta tags for two reasons to beware of:

1. They can add bloat to a site, making it slower to download (in practice this shouldn't be an issue unless they are really excessive).

2. It is said that some search engines actually penalise your site if it contains too many instances of any one keyword.

This is not to say don't use meta tags, and I'm not privy to Google's or anyone else's search engine logic, but it is one of many factors that need to be kept in mind when optimising the site.

I think if you use a keywords meta tag and make it one line long (max of say 100 chars), and have one per page within the site, then I would guess that that's about the right balance.

One point I neglected to mention earlier....

12. When naming the individual pages, try to squeeze the odd keyword or phrase into the filename. Same is true of the domain name. For example, "tutorial001.htm" might instead be named "linux_terminal_tutorial.htm".

lespaul_rentals
December 17th, 2007, 09:43 PM
I have just found a great looking CMS: Elxis (http://demo.opensourcecms.com/elxis/index.php). And Exponent (http://demo.opensourcecms.com/exponent/).

Iceni
December 17th, 2007, 10:09 PM
I havent read the whole thread, but I have some experience working with drupal, and it is easy to work with and good.

http://drupal.org/

Lostincyberspace
December 17th, 2007, 11:18 PM
Drupal is a good beginning one, For this the best I think would be a wiki.

snickers295
December 18th, 2007, 04:59 PM
i made a site once at did all that and got it up to a 9 spot.
is it the same for other engines too?
any ideas for a domain name?

despidey
December 18th, 2007, 06:27 PM
I've been looking thru the thread here. I'm about as new a noob as you have here - a couple of weeks w/Ubuntu. I think you'll find that there are many flavors of newbie and I'm not sure that you can do a one site fits all model. There's the ubergeek who is tired of the MS and Mac world and wants to really fiddle with his/her computer. There are the counter culture rebels who are delighted to discover that the open source universe can provide them with almost all the computing power they need to do what the "mainstream" folks do but faster, easier and cheaper. There are the older (63) noobs like me, involved as a computer user for over 25 years just re-discovering unix (I used an Alpha Xenix system in the mid eighties) who are delighted to find a way to make computers run w/o the shadow of Gates or Jobs, and have visions of resurrecting old computers for use by either seniors or underprivileged school kids. In the time I've been noodling around, I've found several wonderful resources, some of which have been mentioned here. Psychocats made my first install a snap - thank you. The forums are somewhat helpful for details like hardware suggestions, drivers and such. For a nice little command line tutorial I really like http://linuxsurvival.com/index.php - it takes you thru the basics very nicely and is fun to do. Many people learn by doing and I'd suggest that you incorporate a similar system in your noob guide. BTW I'd be delighted to be a tester for your stuff.

lespaul_rentals
December 18th, 2007, 06:43 PM
Drupal is a good beginning one, For this the best I think would be a wiki.

I took a good, long look at Drupal, and I say we go for it. Will you be able to assist me in setting it up? How much PHP knowledge is required to administrate it?

Lostincyberspace
December 18th, 2007, 07:03 PM
I took a good, long look at Drupal, and I say we go for it. Will you be able to assist me in setting it up? How much PHP knowledge is required to administrate it?
Drupal, you can do it with almost zero knowledge of php. But it helps to know some to make it look better.

snickers295
December 19th, 2007, 03:05 PM
I havent read the whole thread, but I have some experience working with drupal, and it is easy to work with and good.

http://drupal.org/
that looks great for what were doing.
are we going to have to try distros our selfs because i love using other distros. as a matter of fact, i have a few cds of xandros that i could set up in a instant.

http://www.logomaker.com/logo-images/e4bdb1a981123a02.gif
is that a good site name?

lespaul_rentals
December 19th, 2007, 06:09 PM
that looks great for what were doing.
are we going to have to try distros our selfs because i love using other distros. as a matter of fact, i have a few cds of xandros that i could set up in a instant.

http://www.logomaker.com/logo-images/e4bdb1a981123a02.gif
is that a good site name?

I was thinking more "Linux4Newbies" or the like. Do you like that?

And yes, if you can write complete reviews for any distros you have worked with, that would be great.

Lostincyberspace
December 19th, 2007, 06:18 PM
how about some thing like this


Linux
o
o
b

It doesn't have to be in text but I didn't want fire up gimp just yet.

DrMega
December 19th, 2007, 06:21 PM
I've been looking thru the thread here. I'm about as new a noob as you have here - a couple of weeks w/Ubuntu. I think you'll find that there are many flavors of newbie and I'm not sure that you can do a one site fits all model. There's the ubergeek who is tired of the MS and Mac world and wants to really fiddle with his/her computer. There are the counter culture rebels who are delighted to discover that the open source universe can provide them with almost all the computing power they need to do what the "mainstream" folks do but faster, easier and cheaper. There are the older (63) noobs like me, involved as a computer user for over 25 years just re-discovering unix (I used an Alpha Xenix system in the mid eighties) who are delighted to find a way to make computers run w/o the shadow of Gates or Jobs, and have visions of resurrecting old computers for use by either seniors or underprivileged school kids. In the time I've been noodling around, I've found several wonderful resources, some of which have been mentioned here. Psychocats made my first install a snap - thank you. The forums are somewhat helpful for details like hardware suggestions, drivers and such. For a nice little command line tutorial I really like http://linuxsurvival.com/index.php - it takes you thru the basics very nicely and is fun to do. Many people learn by doing and I'd suggest that you incorporate a similar system in your noob guide. BTW I'd be delighted to be a tester for your stuff.

You make some good points. New to Linux doesn't mean new to computing.

Deciding on the target audience is probably going to be the trickiest aspect of a project like this. I would suggest that there are tons of sites that provide good technical info for those that are confident enough to throw themselves in at the deep end, and there are one or two Mickey Mouse sites that cover the absolute fundamentals in a way that someone who doesn't know anything about computers at all might understand. In my experience though there seems to be a distinct lack of anything that sits in the middle.

Bruce M.
December 19th, 2007, 10:08 PM
that looks great for what were doing.
are we going to have to try distros our selfs because i love using other distros. as a matter of fact, i have a few cds of xandros that i could set up in a instant.

http://www.logomaker.com/logo-images/e4bdb1a981123a02.gif
is that a good site name?

I hate people that can do images like that, simply because I can't!
( Take that as a compliment snickers295 ) not that I actually hate you. :)

I realy like it.


how about some thing like this


Linux
o
o
b

It doesn't have to be in text but I didn't want fire up gimp just yet.

Don't like the name "noob" myself, even though I am one, I prefer Newbie :)

But along those lines, maybe you or snickers295 can do something better than this:

snickers295
December 20th, 2007, 12:45 AM
I was thinking more "Linux4Newbies" or the like. Do you like that?

And yes, if you can write complete reviews for any distros you have worked with, that would be great.
darn! thats what i thought i typed, sorry i will fix. http://www.logomaker.com/logo-images/64ff20b8cd4a0139.gif

I hate people that can do images like that, simply because I can't!
( Take that as a compliment snickers295 ) not that I actually hate you. :)

I realy like it.



Don't like the name "noob" myself, even though I am one, I prefer Newbie :)

But along those lines, maybe you or snickers295 can do something better than this:
we can't use that logo because this project isn't just for ubuntu, its for all linux. and newbie does sound better then noob.
no offense taken.:)

Lostincyberspace
December 20th, 2007, 01:54 AM
Snickers could you put up the half circle. I want to play around with it a little since it is really nice.

snickers295
December 20th, 2007, 02:34 AM
Snickers could you put up the half circle. I want to play around with it a little since it is really nice.
play with it all you want and post it here when you finish.

Bruce M.
December 20th, 2007, 04:08 AM
darn! thats what i thought i typed, sorry i will fix. http://www.logomaker.com/logo-images/64ff20b8cd4a0139.gif

we can't use that logo because this project isn't just for ubuntu, its for all linux. and newbie does sound better then noob.
no offense taken.:)

Be honest ... we can't use it because it's to "amateurish", even without the logo. :)

Look up - Now that's GOOD!
Look down ... and chuckle! ( I do ) :)

I simply (very simply) reversed the Linux - Noob code quoted earlier and used Newbie instead with a 4 :)

macogw
December 20th, 2007, 04:17 AM
I took a good, long look at Drupal, and I say we go for it. Will you be able to assist me in setting it up? How much PHP knowledge is required to administrate it?

Drupal is in the repositories :)

snickers295
December 22nd, 2007, 02:55 PM
as i suggested before, there should be groups of people doing different things like: Manage Content, Work Forums, Manage Pages, etc

az
December 23rd, 2007, 02:00 PM
Having just released http://ubuntuknowledge.org, I have been keeping tabs on this.

I think you need to organize your project a bit more to start getting concrete results. Here are my suggestions:

Define some goals:
1 - Decide what content you will write from scratch and what you will recycle from existing sites. I suggest you don't re-invent the wheel if you don't have to.
2- Create a template of the layout and work with that.
3- Create a styleguide. I suggest you start from the existing docteam community documentation styleguide. Basically, take it and change what you would want to change, but keep the rest - it work's really well.

Post all of these three things somewhere and allow people who want to help to change them. Use a wiki page or google docs or something. You can install Drupal on a website and post them there.

You can register a .org domain name for five bucks and it comes with a small amount of ad-suppoerted hosting for you to do this, if you want. You can then keep the domain name, but switch hosting to a different provider at a later time.


Drupal is in the repositories :)

You can't install Drupal from the repos on a web hosting provider. Also, I would not suggest installing Drupal from the repos on a home-made server - it's a lot easier to keep up-to-date by using Drupal's built-in update system. Updates to Drupal must be done by hand as it requires a little fiddling. You may need to troubleshoot some problem that happen when you upgrade the code; For example, it's advisable to dissable some modules before upgrading them. Ubuntu's package manager (and the Drupal package maintainer) don't do this.

I would not recommend a pre-installed Drupal setup from a hosting provider, either. They are usually quite out of date.


i made a site once at did all that and got it up to a 9 spot.
is it the same for other engines too?
any ideas for a domain name?

Drupal is Search-Engine-Friendly out-of-the-box, which makes it a lot easier to get high rankings. Drupal's XMLsitemap module makes it easy to submit your site to google, yahoo, ask.com, and MSN live.

The "linux4newbies.org" domain name is currenlty available.

I made the logo in svg form. Anyone can edit it using inkscape:

Bruce M.
December 24th, 2007, 02:38 AM
I made the logo in svg form. Anyone can edit it using inkscape:

WoW! That looks great!
If I edited that I'd kill it. Very nice work.

snickers295
January 2nd, 2008, 07:15 PM
hows this going lespaul_rentals (http://ubuntuforums.org/member.php?u=379497)?

snickers295
January 2nd, 2008, 07:17 PM
Having just released http://ubuntuknowledge.org, I have been keeping tabs on this.

I think you need to organize your project a bit more to start getting concrete results. Here are my suggestions:

Define some goals:
1 - Decide what content you will write from scratch and what you will recycle from existing sites. I suggest you don't re-invent the wheel if you don't have to.
2- Create a template of the layout and work with that.
3- Create a styleguide. I suggest you start from the existing docteam community documentation styleguide. Basically, take it and change what you would want to change, but keep the rest - it work's really well.

Post all of these three things somewhere and allow people who want to help to change them. Use a wiki page or google docs or something. You can install Drupal on a website and post them there.

You can register a .org domain name for five bucks and it comes with a small amount of ad-suppoerted hosting for you to do this, if you want. You can then keep the domain name, but switch hosting to a different provider at a later time.



You can't install Drupal from the repos on a web hosting provider. Also, I would not suggest installing Drupal from the repos on a home-made server - it's a lot easier to keep up-to-date by using Drupal's built-in update system. Updates to Drupal must be done by hand as it requires a little fiddling. You may need to troubleshoot some problem that happen when you upgrade the code; For example, it's advisable to dissable some modules before upgrading them. Ubuntu's package manager (and the Drupal package maintainer) don't do this.

I would not recommend a pre-installed Drupal setup from a hosting provider, either. They are usually quite out of date.



Drupal is Search-Engine-Friendly out-of-the-box, which makes it a lot easier to get high rankings. Drupal's XMLsitemap module makes it easy to submit your site to google, yahoo, ask.com, and MSN live.

The "linux4newbies.org" domain name is currenlty available.

I made the logo in svg form. Anyone can edit it using inkscape:
that looks great!

allforcarrie
January 3rd, 2008, 11:46 AM
this thread is awesome!

saj0577
January 5th, 2008, 06:01 AM
Rather then paying for hosting. Im sure someone on these forums will have a webserver that is online 24/7 that can offer a bit of space. I would be happy to but my webserver is only on for short periods of time at the minute so that would not be much use.


Saj

DoubleClicker
January 5th, 2008, 06:34 AM
I will gladly host it.
I have registered Linux4newbies.org and will have the software installed tomarrow. I hope everyone contibutres to making this the ultimate resource for learning linux.

EDIT: I can install Drupal or a a Wiki , which do people prefer?

lespaul_rentals
January 7th, 2008, 07:28 PM
I will gladly host it.
I have registered Linux4newbies.org and will have the software installed tomarrow. I hope everyone contibutres to making this the ultimate resource for learning linux.

EDIT: I can install Drupal or a a Wiki , which do people prefer?

Wow, I leave for a week, come back, and someone has registered the domain and offered to host it. Thank you!!! :D

snickers295
January 7th, 2008, 07:33 PM
Wow, I leave for a week, come back, and someone has registered the domain and offered to host it. Thank you!!! :D
lol thats how nice the linux community isn't it:)

Lostincyberspace
January 7th, 2008, 07:44 PM
I am still willing to start working on it.
I registered linux4newbies.wordpress.com as a talk place that is not here and totally open if anyone would like to be an contributor just leave a comment. And I will create one.

DoubleClicker
January 8th, 2008, 06:18 AM
Wow, I leave for a week, come back, and someone has registered the domain and offered to host it. Thank you!!! :D

This is a project that i think is worthwhile and i don't want to see t go the way of so many that fizzle before they start, I figured I would give it a little push.

I've installed Drupal since thats what seems to be the CMS of choice But its not too late to switch. Personally my experience is with Media Wiki. and I hthink it would make it easier for more peoople to contribute to the site since many are familiar with Media Wki from editing Wikipedia.

As soon aas I hear from LesPaul, We can figure out about how include everyone in the project, and give out access to edititng the site.

snickers295
January 8th, 2008, 02:40 PM
This is a project that i think is worthwhile and i don't want to see t go the way of so many that fizzle before they start, I figured I would give it a little push.

I've installed Drupal since thats what seems to be the CMS of choice But its not too late to switch. Personally my experience is with Media Wiki. and I hthink it would make it easier for more peoople to contribute to the site since many are familiar with Media Wki from editing Wikipedia.

As soon aas I hear from LesPaul, We can figure out about how include everyone in the project, and give out access to edititng the site.
ok that great.
thank you

snickers295
January 9th, 2008, 09:43 PM
hey there is another site that is exchanging links, maybe you would want to do that?
http://www.linuxlogik.com/forum/
browse around and find the link exchange post.

snickers295
January 11th, 2008, 09:51 PM
come on, is this going to die or what?

DaveTheAve
January 11th, 2008, 10:45 PM
Sounds like a great idea! I'd really love to be a help! I'm in the same position as yourself though, I have college next year I need to deal with (ACTs, finding a college, getting accepted, etc.); and I already work alot developing web apps for a company but I'm sure I can throw some code here and there. I'd love to possible write some articles but I'd love to edit or critic some. Care to provide a link where i can read your current ones?

$awsomeIdea++;

DoubleClicker
January 13th, 2008, 02:26 AM
Sorry for the delay, I had a family issue to deal with.

Les_paul thought Media wiki was a good approach so it's installed and ready for content.

If you've ever editied wikipedia then you know how it works. SO if you want to participate, please create an account.

http://www.linux4newbies.org (http://www.linux4newbies.org/wiki/index.php)

lespaul_rentals
January 14th, 2008, 07:08 PM
Sorry for the delay, I had a family issue to deal with.

Les_paul thought Media wiki was a good approach so it's installed and ready for content.

If you've ever editied wikipedia then you know how it works. SO if you want to participate, please create an account.

http://www.linux4newbies.org (http://www.linux4newbies.org/wiki/index.php)

Many thanks again to DoubleClicker! He's pretty much the man. :)

Now, I need all you guys to help get things started. If you have any articles you would like to write and submit, please do so at your earliest convenience. I also need one or two co-administrators to help me out with the running and promotion of the site.

I've recently had some slight depression, and although that's a horrible excuse, it's kept me from being 100% enthusiastic about my projects. That's why I haven't been on top of things lately, so my apologies.

Let's get out and do this! PM me if you are interested in applying for a moderator position.