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ItsManaged
December 13th, 2007, 01:59 PM
I've been happily using gnome for a long time - ever since experiences of a kde that alwasy seemed to be broken.
Having read the article on slashdot (http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/12/11/161252) - ( see below ) about the innards of the gnome team, I am really disappointed and will move to KDE or something else - I don't want to be associated with this crowd at all!
That's my knee jerk reaction to the article, but I cannot see any other way of looking at it - any other views?

Peter writes:
while raising serious concerns about the GNOME Foundation's decision to give credibility to Microsoft's broken format. This comes on the heels of GNOME co-founder Miguel de Icaza's depiction of OOXML as a 'superb standard', and GNOME Foundation director Quim Gil's stonewalling of the patent-free Ogg Vorbis / Theora format on behalf of Nokia.

popch
December 13th, 2007, 02:19 PM
I absolutely refuse to use MicroSoft Project since I found out that one of the programmers puts ice into red wine. That's utterly shameful, ruines all of the wonderful taste of wine, and I will have nothing to do with products made by such people.

kajillin
December 13th, 2007, 02:21 PM
.......................... u need help!

Polygon
December 13th, 2007, 02:22 PM
who cares? i dont see whats even wrong here. What is maemo? ARe they mad because gnome is going to support ooxml, and richard is telling them to just ignore it?



the best way to bring people to open source is to constantly fight about it amongst ourselves. That'll do the trick.

23meg
December 13th, 2007, 02:31 PM
That's my knee jerk reaction to the article, but I cannot see any other way of looking at it - any other views?

Here are some:

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=621547
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=623997
http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=3935223&postcount=33

de Icaza has nothing to do with GNOME, and Gil isn't in the recently elected board of directors either (he didn't nominate himself); in any case, his "stonewalling" seems to have taken place in a bug report where he doesn't represent GNOME in any way.

These people's personal opinions don't represent GNOME, any more than those of any GNOME user on these forums. They're really red herrings; especially quoting Quim Gil from a Maemo (read: not GNOME) bug report, where he explicitly stated that what he's saying are his opinions and not Nokia's official statement (let alone GNOME's), "smells of rotting fish" to me.

The "...that comes amid..." connection drawn in that Slashdot article is typical of what I noted here (http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=3935223&postcount=33). It creates FUD that people who, for some reason, don't get informed in depth about the individual issues (or non-issues) fall prey to.

Criticizing people and institutions and holding them accountable for their actions is fine; what's not fine is coming up with non sequitur arguments that lump unrelated "evidence" together in an effort to make it look as if there was a big conspiracy ("GNOME is in bed with Micro$haft!!!111") that's being unraveled.

Let's please leave behind the "Someone who founded GNOME said Microsoft is good, so GNOME must be completely bad!" kind of kindergarten logic. Anyone who subscribes to it should perhaps also stop using Ubuntu, because Mark Shuttleworth also expressed (http://mybroadband.co.za/nephp/?m=show&id=6672) his respect of Microsoft and said that he'd love to work with them in the future.

ItsManaged
December 13th, 2007, 02:31 PM
who cares? i dont see whats even wrong here. What is maemo? ARe they mad because gnome is going to support ooxml, and richard is telling them to just ignore it?

I see where you are coming from, but it is self centred. It's not just about you, it's about the open source community. Bloody oath I care. But you are free not to ;)

ItsManaged
December 13th, 2007, 02:34 PM
Here are some:

....

That's cool - thanks for the edification.

The first link in particular is excellent: (extract)

Let's see if I have this right:

1. Jody Goldberg represents Gnome Foundation in TC45-M.

2. Because of point 1, the FLOSS community accuses Gnome of helping OOXML become an ISO and ECMA standard.

3. The FLOSS community prefers that Gnome Foundation shun OOXML altogether and support ODF absolutely.

Assuming that I've correctly identified those three issues, here are some observations:

1. ODF is already an ISO standard.

2. ODF is not widely used.

3. OOXML is not an ISO or ECMA standard.

4. OOXML is developed by Microsoft and will be used in its MS Office suite.

5. MS Office suite is the de facto industry standard for office application software.

6. Due to points 4 and 5, it is likely that OOXML will become an informal but de facto industry standard format for office documents.

7. Goldberg's representation of the Gnome Foundation appears to encourage TC45-M to uncover as much information about OOXML's technical details as possible.

8. By doing point 7, it should become much easier for FLOSS developers to write file format converters for the OOXML format, therefore enhancing the interoperability of FLOSS office applications with MS Office.

What's the big deal? It looks like the Gnome Foundation is doing the smart thing by standardising a document format that will probably become an informal, de facto, industry standard anyway. Yes, support ODF, but if FLOSS office applications are going to be effective in taking a significant portion of MS Office's market share, then interoperability will be a key issue. How better to assure best chances of interoperability than to expose OOXML using ISO and/or ECMA standards?

As I've posted before, an ISO/ECMA standard is just something on a bit of paper. It has no real value until the industry and consumers support and use it. With MS Office's market share, ODF is unlikely to make a big dint in the world of office document formats even though it is an ISO/ECMA standard. OOXML will make a huge dint, whether or not it attains ISO/ECMA standardisation.

PartisanEntity
December 13th, 2007, 02:40 PM
I absolutely refuse to use MicroSoft Project since I found out that one of the programmers puts ice into red wine. That's utterly shameful, ruines all of the wonderful taste of wine, and I will have nothing to do with products made by such people.

:) Good point.

stoodleysnow
December 13th, 2007, 02:46 PM
It may be an idea to move this thread to recurring discussions.
Nothing personal, it's just that DE wars should not be allowed to take over conversation.

ItsManaged
December 13th, 2007, 02:49 PM
It may be an idea to move this thread to recurring discussions.
Nothing personal, it's just that DE wars should not be allowed to take over conversation.

You may be right - though I think this is possibly more a discussion on getting to the facts rather than knee jerk reactions....what ever works is cool.

Wiebelhaus
December 13th, 2007, 02:51 PM
Here are some:

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=621547
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=623997
http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=3935223&postcount=33

de Icaza has nothing to do with GNOME, and Gil isn't in the recently elected board of directors either (he didn't nominate himself); in any case, his "stonewalling" seems to have taken place in a bug report where he doesn't represent GNOME in any way.

These people's personal opinions don't represent GNOME, any more than those of any GNOME user on these forums. They're really red herrings; especially quoting Quim Gil from a Maemo (read: not GNOME) bug report, where he explicitly stated that what he's saying are his opinions and not Nokia's official statement (let alone GNOME's), "smells of rotting fish" to me.

The "...that comes amid..." connection drawn in that Slashdot article is typical of what I noted here (http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=3935223&postcount=33). It creates FUD that people who, for some reason, don't get informed in depth about the individual issues (or non-issues) fall prey to.

Criticizing people and institutions and holding them accountable for their actions is fine; what's not fine is coming up with non sequitur arguments that lump unrelated "evidence" together in an effort to make it look as if there was a big conspiracy ("GNOME is in bed with Micro$haft!!!111") that's being unraveled.

Let's please leave behind the "Someone who founded GNOME said Microsoft is good, so GNOME must be completely bad!" kind of kindergarten logic. Anyone who subscribes to it should perhaps also stop using Ubuntu, because Mark Shuttleworth also expressed (http://mybroadband.co.za/nephp/?m=show&id=6672) his respect of Microsoft and said that he'd love to work with them in the future.

Just to reiterate.

bash
December 13th, 2007, 03:17 PM
It may be an idea to move this thread to recurring discussions.
Nothing personal, it's just that DE wars should not be allowed to take over conversation.

+1. Think that would be good idea, especially since quite a bit of it is just the same old uninformed jump-to-conslusions action going on.

Nano Geek
December 13th, 2007, 03:34 PM
Is Microsoft really that bad?
I mean, I don't like their products anymore that the next guy, but saying that their file format is good isn't some huge evil.

I'd say, get over it or move to KDE.

popch
December 13th, 2007, 03:54 PM
Is Microsoft really that bad?
I mean, I don't like their products anymore that the next guy, but saying that their file format is good isn't some huge evil.

I'd say, get over it or move to KDE.

No one can say for sure if their file format was really bad, because no one has been able to understand the document which describes the proposed standard. For one, it is said to be some 6'000 pages. Then, it is said to contain definitions in the style of 'this structure is to be printed in the manner Microsoft Office prints tables' or 'when this option is set, the paragraph boundaries are to be computed as in Microsoft Office 97'.

iPower
December 13th, 2007, 04:04 PM
in my home microsoft office documents are banned

fuscia
December 13th, 2007, 04:06 PM
It may be an idea to move this thread to recurring discussions.
Nothing personal, it's just that DE wars should not be allowed to take over conversation.

this is about the 'politics' of gnome, not which DE handles right-click menus better.

Sef
December 13th, 2007, 04:43 PM
Moved to reoccuring discussions.

FuturePilot
December 13th, 2007, 05:07 PM
I don't know. All this Gnome. KDE, OOXML stuff is starting to turn into a bunch of FUD and all of the facts are getting lost.

jr.gotti
December 13th, 2007, 05:20 PM
in my home microsoft office documents are banned

I dont know why people think saying things like this earns cool points.

So your saying you survive only on *.odt files? And even if you do, thats foolish. 99% of companies, schools, whatever use Office format. Trying to make a "statement" will get you nowhere.

I use Ubuntu. Why? Because it's free, and it gives me more control. Had Windows been free and not so restrictive, I'd use windows. Do I have a strong distaste for Microsoft, Microsoft products, or people who support any of the above? No...I think thats childish.

My two cents.

p_quarles
December 13th, 2007, 05:23 PM
I don't know. All this Gnome. KDE, OOXML stuff is starting to turn into a bunch of FUD and all of the facts are getting lost.
+1

Xanatos Craven
December 13th, 2007, 06:11 PM
Lawl... whatever. There was a point in time when I actually bothered to consider this crap in a serious light, but then I came to a realization that there is a huge independent community behind both GNOME and KDE, and that no corporation will ever own either. Not Novell, not Trolltech (although they seem to be mostly benign from what I've read), sure as hell not Microsoft... nobody.

Anyway, the bit of drama over OOXML has little substance to it. For one thing, please correct if I'm wrong on any of this, but de Icaza isn't even really a part of GNOME anymore, is he? So what do his opinions matter? Hell, he's only one person speaking for himself either way... Secondly, it's not like GNOME's pushing for OOXML to be standardized next to ODF : they just want more support for OOXML in their office programs so that they'll be more useful to more people. That's it. They still favor ODF, but want people to at least be able to work with those that choose/are stuck with Office 2007 if they must. And KOffice is open to also having support for the document format, although it's not really a priority for them right now.

bruce89
December 13th, 2007, 06:36 PM
GNOME Office isn't part of GNOME, so I don't understand all the FUD.

All the people who say "I'm off to KDE4" over this are rather immature.

Prisma
December 13th, 2007, 08:34 PM
I've been happily using gnome for a long time - ever since experiences of a kde that alwasy seemed to be broken.
Having read the article on slashdot (http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/12/11/161252) - ( see below ) about the innards of the gnome team, I am really disappointed and will move to KDE or something else - I don't want to be associated with this crowd at all!
That's my knee jerk reaction to the article, but I cannot see any other way of looking at it - any other views?

Peter writes:

and what exactly is wrong here? I don't get it either... :confused:

ItsManaged
December 13th, 2007, 10:46 PM
...... but then I came to a realization that there is a huge independent community behind both GNOME and KDE, and that no corporation will ever own either. Not Novell, not Trolltech (although they seem to be mostly benign from what I've read), sure as hell not Microsoft... nobody........

Very good point...I wonder what has happened to the Suse community since Novell took on a big interest. That's possibly a good litmus test for your theory Xanatos Craven.