A Plea to the Community: Don't Reward Bad Behavior

[aysiu]

This is a plea, not a demand.

I've seen it happen a few times that someone will post a support thread and not get much help. Then, when she or he posts a complaining "I'm leaving. Ubuntu sucks. I'm going back to Windows" thread, suddenly ten or twenty people jump out of the woodwork and say, "Oh, no. Don't leave. Give Ubuntu a chance. We'll help you," and the person's problem is solved.

Uh, maybe you don't all realize this (you woodwork people, whoever you are), but you're rewarding bad behavior.

I would urge you to join me in deliberately not helping those who whine and make a big fuss to draw attention to their problems (this behavior I consider parasitic) and deliberately seek out the quiet patient folks, who are just waiting for their support threads to be paid attention to--the ones who do not create separate threads called "Why won't anyone answer my thread?" or "This community sucks"; the ones who wait and then bump their threads once after a day or two.

To those who threaten to return to Windows or decide that insulting the Ubuntu community is the best way to get help, I hope you do not get more encouragement for your behavior. If Windows works for you, great. Use Windows, then. If you want to give Ubuntu a chance, give it a real chance, and ask for help nicely... and I'm hoping the Ubuntu community here will listen to my plea and reward good forum behavior.

[Vadi]

A newbie comes to Ubuntu. Has a problems, so he posts question topics. The topics don't get answered for whatever reasons (the right people don't see them, so on).

The said newbie gets frustrated at receiving no help. Posts about their experience in the "user experiences" topic. People who check those forums more often than the newbie help forums see the threads, start solving problems.

You're suggesting that even those threads receive no help, so the said newbie does go away after being frustrated with their problems.

I disagree, and I believe you should be telling people to check on the beginners forums more often than the experiences forums. That way, all threads will be solved sooner, cause less frustration, and happier threads in the experiences forums.

:|

[aysiu]

A newbie comes to Ubuntu. Has a problems, so he posts question topics. The topics don't get answered for whatever reasons (the right people don't see them, so on).

The said newbie gets frustrated at receiving no help. Posts about their experience in the "user experiences" topic. People who check those forums more often than the newbie help forums see the threads, start solving problems.

You're suggesting that even those threads receive no help, so the said newbie does go away after being frustrated with their problems. No, I'm not suggesting those threads receive no help. I'm suggesting people who are willing to help actually check the Absolute Beginner help subforums from time to time. If they're not willing to help, they shouldn't help at all. I don't see why we should encourage people to make not only support threads but community cafe threads too to point and draw attention to their support threads.

That's ridiculous.

[rsambuca]

+1 to aysiu

[Brindled]

total agreement!

since the this is not a rant thread, i've been scanning the beginners' section to see if there's something i can help with. i've left the new posts button alone, and especially the experience forum as has been suggested by others.


edit: the only reason i saw this thread was it was listed as the latest thread in the index, before i even made it to the beginners' section.

[23meg]

I fully agree.

[Vadi]

Ah, yeah. So what I suggested was really your idea then.

[fuscia]

it's not bad behavior. people who are new can get easily frustrated. are you only willing to help the people who act the way you think they should? help them out and give them a chance to get over their little fits and maybe they'll turn into contructive little ubuntu-ites.

[kylekeeton]

There is an old saying, "The squeaky wheel gets the oil!"

Kyle

:-({|=

[23meg]

If people condone a certain kind of behavior that they know isn't proper, it will slowly become acceptable, and will become more commonplace, simply because it's being tolerated.

People should actually clearly indicate in the "This community sucks" threads that they will not help the OP because of their unwanted behavior. They should not, however, pick on people themselves; if the behavior changes, if the OP realizes that what they've done is uncalled for, and why, they can keep getting help in the appropriate support forum.

[23meg]

it's not bad behavior. people who are new can get easily frustrated. are you only willing to help the people who act the way you think they should? help them out and give them a chance to get over their little fits and maybe they'll turn into contructive little ubuntu-ites.

They can voice their frustration in the Testimonials and Experiences forum if they need to. Starting another thread in the support section or Cafe in which to attack the community for not helping them or not making things work exactly the way they want goes beyond voicing frustration: it's offending people.

I don't offend new users for being unable to get things working, or not understanding them; and I've seen few people who have here. But I've seen a much larger number of new users who will resort to the offensive behavior aysiu has described.

[justin whitaker]

This is a plea, not a demand.

I've seen it happen a few times that someone will post a support thread and not get much help. Then, when she or he posts a complaining "I'm leaving. Ubuntu sucks. I'm going back to Windows" thread, suddenly ten or twenty people jump out of the woodwork and say, "Oh, no. Don't leave. Give Ubuntu a chance. We'll help you," and the person's problem is solved.

Uh, maybe you don't all realize this (you woodwork people, whoever you are), but you're rewarding bad behavior.

I would urge you to join me in deliberately not helping those who whine and make a big fuss to draw attention to their problems (this behavior I consider parasitic) and deliberately seek out the quiet patient folks, who are just waiting for their support threads to be paid attention to--the ones who do not create separate threads called "Why won't anyone answer my thread?" or "This community sucks"; the ones who wait and then bump their threads once after a day or two.

To those who threaten to return to Windows or decide that insulting the Ubuntu community is the best way to get help, I hope you do not get more encouragement for your behavior. If Windows works for you, great. Use Windows, then. If you want to give Ubuntu a chance, give it a real chance, and ask for help nicely... and I'm hoping the Ubuntu community here will listen to my plea and reward good forum behavior.

I can't help but feel that this could be, or maybe should be, a headed off on the admin side, though. If someone throws and "I'm leaving in a huff!" thread, then isn't that what the "Back to Windows" thread is for? Merge it and move on.

But, once again aysiu, you are on point and totally correct.

[aysiu]

it's not bad behavior. people who are new can get easily frustrated. are you only willing to help the people who act the way you think they should? help them out and give them a chance to get over their little fits and maybe they'll turn into contructive little ubuntu-ites.
There are honest, frustrated and well-intentioned venting threads. Anything with a title like, "The Ubuntu community sucks. I can't get any good help" represents a bad attitude. That's very different from a thread title like, "I'm getting really frustrated that I can't get Ubuntu working."

The former insults the people you are asking for help from. The latter expresses an inner sense of frustration.

I'm not saying people should deny they have problems or smile about it. I'm just saying if people want to be obnoxious about their frustrations (threatening to leave, insulting the Ubuntu community), then they shouldn't be rewarded for that obnoxious behavior. I won't be rude back.

Of the following three types of responses, I favor the latter:
Who cares about you, stupid noob? Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
Oh, please don't go! I didn't care about your problem before, but now that you say Ubuntu sucks, I care now. I'll post a lot in your support thread I'd previously overlooked.
If Windows works for you, great. Use Windows if that's what works for you. Ubuntu works for me, that's why I use Ubuntu. If you want help, ask for it politely.

[p_quarles]

I agree with aysiu completely here. The old(-ish) joke is that the best way to get Linux support is to go to an IRC room and announce: "This sucks. I've tried everything, and Linux is simply not ready for the average user."

The reason these threads get so much attention is a snowball effect. Not everyone here knows how to get a Broadcom wireless card running with NDISwrapper. Nearly everyone still here, though, has had good experiences with both Linux and the community support system. When the topic changes from "how can I get my wireless working" to "why won't you *#!!&%@ help me already?", the number of people prepared to respond goes up astronomically.

This, in turn, bumps that thread to the top of the given forum for a while, and will greatly increase the chance that it is seen by someone who does know how to fix the original problem.

It's a very effective strategy, one that we all practiced as children, and one that most people over the age of 10 should have left behind.

Don't fall for it.

[aysiu]

It's a very effective strategy, one that we all practiced as children, and one that most people over the age of 10 should have left behind. Wow! You phrased it better than I could. I guess what it is, less so than "bad" behavior or evil behavior, is just childish behavior.

A child who throws a temper tantrum may get the toy she wants, but she's still a child throwing a temper tantrum... and, no, she shouldn't get the toy she wants.

[Wazeem]

Awesome!

[rsambuca]

How about this thread (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=633324), for example. My latter post was probably OK, but my monkey picture probably wasn't the best thing in hindsight...

[fuscia]

helping them with their problems isn't rewarding them. it's helping them. they deserve help because that's what using linux is about. if someone's a jerk, let them be a jerk (letting people be what they are, whether you like them or not, is also what linux is about). no one is telling you that you have to help them, so don't be telling other people who they can or cannot help.

additionally: when you help a jerk, you're helping the next person who comes along with the same problem who might not have the chutzpa to be so whiney.

[FuturePilot]

I completely agree with aysiu here. And p_quarles phrased it perfectly.

It's a very effective strategy, one that we all practiced as children, and one that most people over the age of 10 should have left behind.

[tgalati4]

And exactly what are we using computers for?

Why can't the forums-filter treat "bump" and "community sucks" the same way?

Why don't we have an automatic response bot that points users to wikis, howtos, etc?

The filters already capture a** and sh**, Why don't we add some intelligence to the filters to address aysiu's point?

Of course as the Ubuntu community grows, there will be a wider range of personal behavior. It's time to replace the glass mirrors with polished stainless.

[sailor2001]

it's not bad behavior. people who are new can get easily frustrated. are you only willing to help the people who act the way you think they should? help them out and give them a chance to get over their little fits and maybe they'll turn into contructive little ubuntu-ites.

I agree totally

[aysiu]

Why can't the forums-filter treat "bump" and "community sucks" the same way? I don't think they should be treated the same way. Granted, a thread should not be bumped ten minutes after its been posted (I have seen that happen before), but a bump is innocent and sometimes warranted. Insulting the community, however, is not.

[Brindled]

no one is telling you that you have to help them, so don't be telling other people who they can or cannot help.



This is a plea, not a demand.


fuscia, you need to heed your own advice. you are a hypocrite.

[koenn]

helping them with their problems isn't rewarding them. it's helping them.
it's helping them, and at the same time showing them (and others who read the thread) that asking for help by bad-mouthing Linux | Ubuntu and insulting those they seek help from, is effective.
In the end they get what they want, so helping them is in fact rewarding childish / bad behaviour - and encouraging others to do the same. Surely you understand hat.

I agree with aysiu on this one. I've seen it happen too, and I don't think it should be encouraged. I wouldn't mind seeing forum mods intervene in such threads, either.

[hanzomon4]

I'll help anyone I can... I just don't agree with you on this one aysiu

[fuscia]

well then, why stop at not rewarding bad behavior? why not reward good behavior, too? we could have a system.

premium - for posters who compliment the community in general, and their helpers, specifically (on their avs, sigs, etc.)

ubuntu advantage - generally pleasant and polite

basic - for the brief and businesslike

haveubeentogentooyet - for the repeat whiners who have no place among us


you help people because they need help, not because you like the way they behave. who knows? maybe no one ever helps them in any other aspect of their lives. you don't know them. don't judge why they are the way they are.

if i'm being a hypocrite back, then sorry about that. i'm gonna help whoever i can no matter how they act (if someone would ever ask a question i actually know the answer to).

[aysiu]

well then, why stop at not rewarding bad behavior? why not reward good behavior, too? I agree fully. That's what I said in my original post.

Don't wait for people to post hateful attention-drawing threads. Actively seek out unanswered threads and help out people before they get frustrated. I thought I'd already said that:
I would urge you to join me in deliberately not helping those who whine and make a big fuss to draw attention to their problems (this behavior I consider parasitic) and deliberately seek out [and help] the quiet patient folks, who are just waiting for their support threads to be paid attention to--the ones who do not create separate threads called "Why won't anyone answer my thread?" or "This community sucks"; the ones who wait and then bump their threads once after a day or two.

[fuscia]

I agree fully. That's what I said in my original post.

Don't wait for people to post hateful attention-drawing threads. Actively seek out unanswered threads and help out people before they get frustrated. I thought I'd already said that.

sorry, i forgot the [sar][/casm] tags. i think requests for help should be treated equally with as much help as one can provide. who knows how many people are helped by searching for previous answers to their questions. when you help someone, you're not just helping that person, you're helping everyone who seeks out that thread in the future. in short, you're answering their request for help, as well.

[kellemes]

i'm gonna help whoever i can no matter how they act (if someone would ever ask a question i actually know the answer to).

Nothing wrong with that..

But for me personally it does matter how someone is approaching me for help, just like in "real life".



additionally: when you help a jerk, you're helping the next person who comes along with the same problem who might not have the chutzpa to be so whiney.


You may also be teaching this next person he/she can be a jerk and still be helped.

We may not be able to free the world of jerks, but there can be a minimum of politeness we can ask from people when asking for voluntary help.

[crimesaucer]

it's helping them, and at the same time showing them (and others who read the thread) that asking for help by bad-mouthing Linux | Ubuntu and insulting those they seek help from, is effective.
In the end they get what they want, so helping them is in fact rewarding childish / bad behaviour - and encouraging others to do the same. Surely you understand hat.

I agree with aysiu on this one. I've seen it happen too, and I don't think it should be encouraged. I wouldn't mind seeing forum mods intervene in such threads, either.


But on the flip side of the argument, when someone creates a thread about a problem, it becomes part of the Ubuntu search database.


So then if someone else has the exact same problem, and instead of creating a new thread... they have "good forum etiquette" and do an Ubuntu Search or Google Search and end up directed to this whiners thread...


I think it is better to have them find a [SOLVED] answer and a positive community response, since those would be the people that you would want to stay as part of the Ubuntu Forums community. (the people that search for an answer and try to solve things by themselves)


Like, when I was a beginner, I read a lot of other people's threads that I found when searching similar problems... and I saw the "Windows Whiners" threads both answered in positive and negative ways...


... but in the positive ones, at least there were usually a [SOLVED] answer and a bit of advice for others that might of joined the thread.

[aysiu]

sorry, i forgot the [sar][/casm] tags. i think requests for help should be treated equally with as much help as one can provide. who knows how many people are helped by searching for previous answers to their questions. when you help someone, you're not just helping that person, you're helping everyone who seeks out that thread in the future. in short, you're answering their request for help, as well.
There are plenty of problems to go around. You can help those who ask nicely and still help out future searchers.

[popch]

There is an old saying, "The squeaky wheel gets the oil!"

Lovely. We used to call it 'Management by deciBel'.

[fuscia]

You may also be teaching this next person he/she can be a jerk and still be helped.

We may not be able to free the world of jerks, but there can be a minimum of politeness we can ask from people when asking for voluntary help.

so, just tell them to quit being a jerk, or add...


sudo apt-get remove hairfromacrossbutt-dev

[Brindled]

i think...

as long as we're voicing our opinions here, i think it's ok to disagree on this.

in my opinion, i think the goodbye threads should be deleted.

:)

[koenn]

But on the flip side of the argument, when someone creates a thread about a problem, it becomes part of the Ubuntu search database.
... as does a problem that gets solved without the guilt-tripping, temper tantrums and other manipulative behaviour. Hence the plea to (try and) fix problems for people who ask for support, and not to give in to those that use emotional blackmail such as "The OS you like so much sucks / doesn't work / .... Now prove me wrong and fix my problem"

[hvac3901]

Hey thanks for the thread, it mirrors my feelings today. I was gonna make a post about where i could find a 1000 page Ubuntu manual and just stop asking questions. But i guess i will have to post it where ti gets answered and not where i thought it should have been filed. The Absolute Beginer Forum

[Wazeem]

Well I think this thread may have been caused by my behavior (or rather my behavior might have highlighted the problem to warrant a thread).

First I want to apologize. I understand it was out of line. Also I want to be part of the community and help ubuntu.

However to help prevent others from what I displayed. I can suggest some improvements or what I have noticed.

Why is there an absolute beginner section highlighted at the top and then there is a main support section below. To me I was an absolute beginner so that seemed like the right place to post, however now having gotten used to the forum I realize that the absolute beginner section was not the best place to post my thread. I suppose the absolute beginner has its uses for generic questions but its not really technical support area. Maybe if it was changed to be called pre-ubuntu questions it would make sense.

Then even I would have had to post in the relevant section. You see a new beginner will consider him/her self a beginner and post there rather than in the proper support section. Because of this the threads are all posted there and crammed making threads that were posted 20 minutes ago fall into page 2 -3 easily. This is what caused my frustration.

The second source of annoyance for me was IRC but seeing as its not a viable option to control that I cant think of any suggestions.

Well you may flame me or make smart comments now that I posted this but I really don't care, I'm just interested in using ubuntu. I would help others but I'm not qualified to do so yet.

By the way what I say is based on MY experience.

[p_quarles]

Why is there an absolute beginner section highlighted at the top and then there is a main support section below. To me I was an absolute beginner so that seemed like the right place to post, however now having gotten used to the forum I realize that the absolute beginner section was not the best place to post my thread. I suppose the absolute beginner has its uses for generic questions but its not really technical support area. Maybe if it was changed to be called pre-ubuntu questions it would make sense.
No, the Absolute Beginner's section is for tech support, and is mainly geared toward those who don't have enough experience to know exactly which other section there question belongs in.

The problem is that it sees a huge volume of requests. It's very easy for posts there to go unnoticed. Many of us make a concerted effort to look for older, unanswered posts and try to help. Part of aysiu's point here is that it would benefit everyone if people spent more time doing that, and I agree.

For those who request help in the Absolute Beginner's section, keep in mind that you can occasionally bump your question back to the front page if you've gone awhile with no replies. Be patient, though: once you bump a thread, it will no longer show up in searches for "unanswered posts," and people like me who search for those posts are less likely to see it.

[fuscia]

There are plenty of problems to go around. You can help those who ask nicely and still help out future searchers.

i guess we'll have to agree to disagree, then. you certainly know way more about linux than i do (and i've certainly benefitted from that knowledge, myself). you can cherry-pick easily without wrongdoing. i have to help whoever is more out of it than i am. in my view, though, you're caring more about how people treat you than how you treat them. i don't fault that, necessarily, but i wouldn't want someone else to have that kind of hold over me, as cold as it may be to look at it that way.

[toupeiro]

Torn on this one.

I can see Aysiu's point. Its ridiculous to lash out at the community, and it shows an obvious level of immaturity -- however, its not my job to discipline or judge people, even in retaliation. I will happily bid them farewell if they want to go back to windows --- oh yeah, and happily tell them the answer to their problem if I know it. I don't see that as rewarding them I see it as "with community based support comes a level of tolerance on both sides." I choose to exercise my tolerance in my own way, but ignoring them I dont think is the right approach, nor is lecturing them. I shouldn't have to change my approach because of theirs.

[fuscia]

I shouldn't have to change my approach because of theirs.

nicely put.

[erfahren]

First I want to apologize. I understand it was out of line. Also I want to be part of the community and help ubuntu.
don't sweat it, no problem


Why is there an absolute beginner section highlighted at the top and then there is a main support section below. To me I was an absolute beginner so that seemed like the right place to post, however now having gotten used to the forum I realize that the absolute beginner section was not the best place to post my thread. I suppose the absolute beginner has its uses for generic questions but its not really technical support area. Maybe if it was changed to be called pre-ubuntu questions it would make sense.

actually the description of it says: "The perfect starting place to find out more about computers, Linux and Ubuntu"


Then even I would have had to post in the relevant section. You see a new beginner will consider him/her self a beginner and post there rather than in the proper support section. Because of this the threads are all posted there and crammed making threads that were posted 20 minutes ago fall into page 2 -3 easily. This is what caused my frustration.

good point there.

I'd like to mention that Linux (in general) seems to be going through a new transition period, as far as attracting new users, that is being reflected in the forums. There is a immense amount of new threads started asking basic questions that have been asked and answered ad nauseum in the forums (yours, Wazeem, not being one of them). Those type of threads I mention create a problem crowding out legitimate questions. (I've been guilty of answering some, but many times I've just posted a link to a Google search.)

It's been mentioned before that doing a Google search on the forums can yield more relevent results than the forum search tool which defaults to the most recent postings (unless the advanced search is used).

Anyway, there are experts in a particular area that subscibe to threads relevent to their expertise. But not everyone is necessarily an expert, but tries to help in areas that they feel they've had some experience with. With that in mind I've noticed that new posters rarely include links to information that they've already found but don't completely understand. I've seen many new posters ask questions about installing some program they found on the internet somewhere without including a link to it. It can be helpful to get a first-hand look and ensure that they're even getting the correct version.


Well you may flame me or make smart comments now that I posted this but I really don't care, I'm just interested in using ubuntu. I would help others but I'm not qualified to do so yet.

we ain't quite that mean are we? lol !

[aysiu]

I can see Aysiu's point. Its ridiculous to lash out at the community, and it shows an obvious level of immaturity -- however, its not my job to discipline or judge people, even in retaliation. I will happily bid them farewell if they want to go back to windows --- oh yeah, and happily tell them the answer to their problem if I know it. I don't see that as rewarding them I see it as "with community based support comes a level of tolerance on both sides." I choose to exercise my tolerance in my own way, but ignoring them I dont think is the right approach, nor is lecturing them. I shouldn't have to change my approach because of theirs. Well, then, let me put it this way. I'm not so much punishing them as not rewarding them. Most people who have spent some time here know that I spend a lot of time here--sometimes helping, sometimes discussing, sometimes moderating. I don't have the energy to help out everyone (I don't have the knowledge either, but that's a separate issue), so I have to pick and choose. If technical support energy could be quantified, I'd rather spend 3 units on 3 problems from polite users than 2 units on polite users and 1 on an attention-seeking one.

And notice how much more help the people get who insult the Ubuntu community... seriously. They are being rewarded, not just not punished.


Well I think this thread may have been caused by my behavior (or rather my behavior might have highlighted the problem to warrant a thread). It was the latter, not the former. I definitely don't want you to feel singled out. This is a phenomenon that has been around at least as long as I've been on these forums.

[toupeiro]

Well, then, let me put it this way. I'm not so much punishing them as not rewarding them. Most people who have spent some time here know that I spend a lot of time here--sometimes helping, sometimes discussing, sometimes moderating. I don't have the energy to help out everyone (I don't have the knowledge either, but that's a separate issue), so I have to pick and choose. If technical support energy could be quantified, I'd rather spend 3 units on 3 problems from polite users than 2 units on polite users and 1 on an attention-seeking one.


Again, I can see your point, but the other thing you have to understand is that nobody has the expectations of you to help out everyone. Picking and choosing is a start, but recognize that what you choose to overlook is still in the hands of the community and let it remain there to be answered or ignored by the ones who participate to help. I'm not pretending to know how you think, but I think I can relate to where you are coming from. I've read a lot of your posts and I have a good deal of respect for the way you moderate and support people in these forums, but I also know that for some people with positive feedback comes the necessity to always raise the bar for yourself. I am talking from personal experience here. I spent pretty much 2 full years of my life almost literally working and supporting systems, eating, and sleeping (occasionally sleeping. 80+ hours a week was a reality sometimes). It burnt me to the ground. But in retrospect its really its my fault. I absolutely love what I do for a living and I did not know how to back away sometimes and just say no, or let it be someone elses problem. The support, and the work got very personal to me. I changed too much of my approach because I thought I had be the one to solve the issues and to make everyone happy. I don't have that expectation anymore. But I still have to put myself in check from time to time when it starts approaching midnight and I am thinking about the problem I had at 11:00AM.

I guess what my point is, is that you can't make that attitude go away. I'm an it support guy, not a psychologist. :-) I can make your system stop crashing, but I can't make someones attitude stop sucking, so I work with what I can work with. I wouldn't be posting here if I didn't want to help. Sucky attitudes will be encountered in a support role forever. I don't think antagonizing them back is the right answer, but as I said, for me, ignoring them doesn't solve their first problem, or the one they asked about.. If I can help with one of them, awesome! If not, Safe voyage in the world of Vista. Their attitude isn't my problem, its theirs. You can't fix jerk by ignoring it. :-D

[Bruce M.]

This is a plea, not a demand.

I'll give you 10/10 for that, aysiu.


I've seen it happen a few times that someone will post a support thread and not get much help. Then, when she or he posts a complaining "I'm leaving. Ubuntu sucks. I'm going back to Windows" thread, suddenly ten or twenty people jump out of the woodwork and say, "Oh, no. Don't leave. Give Ubuntu a chance. We'll help you," and the person's problem is solved.

I'm new to Linux. Ubuntu is my first experience. My ability to help someone is extremely limited.
But as a child I was told, "If you want help, ask nicely, otherwise you're on your own."


Uh, maybe you don't all realize this (you woodwork people, whoever you are), but you're rewarding bad behavior.

See my comment above. I have to agree with you 100% with this.


You see a new beginner will consider him/her self a beginner and post there rather than in the proper support section. Because of this the threads are all posted there and crammed making threads that were posted 20 minutes ago fall into page 2 -3 easily.

That happened to me. Some of my first threads disappeared very fast. But since I'm an avid reader, and started researching things myself, I ended up marking some of my threads "Solved" that weren't really solved or answered. Over time I've learned the answers, I should have put my own answers in there, but I didn't. Sorry about that too.

I started using other forum areas, searching for my answers first, then posting if nothing seemed to fit.

I can say that the help here has been GREAT! Even when I was frustrated with some not being answered. I had to remind myself that these forums are populated by "volunteers" helping who they can when they can, on their own time.

Ubuntu would be in a sorry state if I was the only one to answer questions or give help, because as I said, I'm new, and know precious little about Linux.

Before I close I would like to say one more thing, to you who do help here,

Thank you! You've made my transition to Ubuntu/Linux a wonderful experience.

Bruce Milmine

[ruibernardo]

Posts that do not get an answer generally are because of one of two things: there is already 999 threads about the same issue or because it's an issue very very rare.

The "Absolute Beginner Talk" forum is flooded with threads that repeat the same problems.

Same problems are posted because the beginners, when they search for an answer (if they do) they can't find the answer they need.

The search engine of the forum should be improved. If you search for common problems (try typing "xorg" for example on the search box in the right upper corner of the forums page) you will get posts with the maximum of 1 day old! If you search for "xorg.conf" it goes as far as two days. And so on. The search engine is limited, so another thread is created, flooding the forum (and the search engine) even more. It's a snow ball created by the ubuntu success and its weaknesses.

I think that the search engine should be improved and a real FAQ should be created. The real FAQ should have the solution for the most common problems.

[rune0077]

Throwing a screaming fit to get someones attention is good solid childish behaviour. It just so happens that I like childish behaviour. We're all born geniuses and then grows a little dumber every day from then on :). There's a saying in my country: "Adults are just children who have gone mad". Get it? If nobody pays attention to you, and you start screaming and trashing to get their attention, well that makes sense. Sitting around doing nothing while they keep ignoring you on the other hand, is just plain stupid, no matter how polite or appropriate it seems. So, to put it simple, let's reward childish behaviour, let's help those that screams the loudest to get our attention (they're the sane ones). I know I will if I can...

[boast]

look out gentoo users, ubuntu community is coming from behind!

[SomeGuyDude]

Just reminds me of that old joke. The fastest way to get help with Linux is to go into the IRC channel and say "LINUX SUCKS I CAN'T DO [WHATEVER] IT'S WAY EASIER ON WINDOWS".

[conehead77]

The search engine of the forum should be improved. If you search for common problems (try typing "xorg" for example on the search box in the right upper corner of the forums page) you will get posts with the maximum of 1 day old! If you search for "xorg.conf" it goes as far as two days. And so on. The search engine is limited, so another thread is created, flooding the forum (and the search engine) even more. It's a snow ball created by the ubuntu success and its weaknesses.

This is what i was thinking.

When i joined the Ubuntu forums i always searched like you described and rarely found a answer.

But soon i discovered a new tactic:
Use the suggestions which are made just before you create a new thread.
These results are much more accurate than the "normal" search for me.

[SomeGuyDude]

The easiest way to 'search" is to start a new thread, put your title in, and then just wait to see what threads the board spits back at you as potential similar threads. I never use the search function any more.

[rsambuca]

The easiest way to 'search" is to start a new thread, put your title in, and then just wait to see what threads the board spits back at you as potential similar threads. I never use the search function any more.

Man, I don't know how some people sleep at night.

[holiday]

We must permit people to be themselves. Let's face it: people do become distraught and there *are* people who will rush to the aid of the distraught. We are glad for these rushers in. Society needs them. They are an important part of our glue.

Someone falls down and picks themselves up - who cares. Someone falls down and starts to thrash and scream - people pay attention. Ok - maybe the person is a little bit pathetic, but it's not like people choose to be pathetic and it's not like you can train people out of being pathetic by not rewarding their pathetic behavior. You have to reward good behavior.

That's what works.

This is human nature.

It is better to draw the distraught into the fold and in the comfort of family and friends teach them the protocol.

Be gentle.

Go in Peace.

[yabbadabbadont]

Man, I don't know how some people sleep at night.

I think that he is saying that he uses the forums automatically suggested threads to find the one he needs. I think that he then aborts his thread creation without submitting it.

Edit: At least that is the impression I got from his post.

[master_kernel]

Good idea, I'm in.

[rsambuca]

I think that he is saying that he uses the forums automatically suggested threads to find the one he needs. I think that he then aborts his thread creation without submitting it.

Edit: At least that is the impression I got from his post.

Ahhh.... That must be it. I apologize.

[praxis22]

Amusingly enough I saw a letter published in a weekly computer magazine here where some guy complained he'd asked for help and been told to use rm which really made me laugh. Evil I know, but funny as hell.

I also have to say that that's a wicked Icon you have there rsambuca, (and the drinks not half bad either)

Back on topic however, I do think the OP has a point, it plays to the evangelical mob to say "I'm going back to windows" which elicits a response, but it's pavlov's dog syndrome. Perhaps somebody should sticky the wiki page in the beginners forum with a note that "some assembly will be required" etc.

You get the same things in Solaris/AIX/HPUX mailing lists. the number of people who just ask questions then report "it doesn't work, help me" is ridiculous, in many case people are being employed as admins , and they haven't a clue.

[kevdog]

I suppose the admins wouldn't like it then if I responded to all the threads with "Im going back to Windows" with "GOOD - Go Back to Windows! See Ya."

[Redlance]

what the original poster described is what we call sociopathic behavior.
its cure. Donot feed into it. halt any positive affirmation towards their threats. and encourage them to follow through (I.E. goin back to windows since blah blah)

These type of people are malicious, heartless and only think for themselves.

my 0.02$

[inversekinetix]

The world takes all kinds of people, thats what makes it interesting. If someone does the right thing by calmly asking for help with a problem they couldn't figure out themselves and then they get no response I think they have every right to feel frustrated. How long should someone wait for a response? I mean this is a forum full of veteran linux users where new users are directed to for help. Having to revert to some other system because they can't get the help they need with a new one is normal I think, making a thread about it in the relevent area should be fine, I tend to think of it like a service feedback area on a commercial site. I know I know, people will pull the 'this is a free help service, people volunteer their time, they don't owe anyone anything etc etc' and that too is a valid point, but isn't community what this is all supposed to be about. Helping frustrated users who are having a 'tantrum' (read: so frustrated they fall back on behaviour that they might not ordinarily display) is not a bad thing at all, helping a another person is NEVER bad and no one has the right to decide when and where people 'should' stop giving help. Just because a person can't control themselves in a manner that suits everyone it in no way means they shouldn't be helped. Help is not something to be deserved but something that should be given freely and unconditionally from oneself.

After all 'we are what we are because of who we all are'

just my view on help, thats all.

[Brindled]

that's all fine and dandy in an idealistic world, but the truth remains that some people find the behavior in question abhorrent. i guess the people that see it for what it is will just ignore it, and the others that can overlook it will keep on helping. no "one" has made a final decision as to what one should do in these situations. it was just a suggestion. follow it or don't.

it's simple really.

i guess what i'm saying is... things will probably just keep going the way it has. if you don't like what aysiu has suggested that's ok. keep on helping the rude ones, but if the rude ones get slapped by the ones who'd rather not help, you need to except this behavior also. if not, you're being hypocritcal.

[inversekinetix]

that's all fine and dandy in an idealistic world, but the truth remains that some people find the behavior in question abhorrent. i guess the people that see it for what it is will just ignore it, and the others that can overlook it will keep on helping. no "one" has made a final decision as to what one should do in these situations. it was just a suggestion. follow it or don't.

it's simple really.

i guess what i'm saying is... things will probably just keep going the way it has. if you don't like what aysiu has suggested that's ok. keep on helping the rude ones, but if the rude ones get slapped by the ones who'd rather not help, you need to except this behavior also. if not, you're being hypocritcal.

i don't know whether or not people find that behaviour abhorrent, I work with children and see way way worse, I guess I'm just used to it and have a different tolerance level. like your point about suggestions, I merely expressed an opinion, I'm not suggesting that anyone either agrees with or disagrees with it. In my work I get abuse both physical and verbal, I still help the people that do that to me, it doesnt bother me as there is way more to those people than one small incident. I just think that when we help others we help ourselves and two wrongs never make a right

[Brindled]

i agree. two wrongs do not make a right. i'm not suggesting that someone should treat someone in an ill manner. if someone does, though, they shouldn't be judged or held in contempt for doing so. as many are suggesting a benign approach to the rude should be taken, the same should be incorporated when considering the people who feel like giving the rude person a taste of their own medicine. if you single someone out or judge their secondary actions you're no better than them.

however, the absence of wanting to help someone that is acting out should not be judged as a "wrong." one is merely ignoring this asinine behavior, regardless of the problems. it's enough just helping the patient people that manage to realize the way it works within a community.


oh, and yes, abhorrent would describe the reaction to some of the ungrateful attitudes shown. it comes from people taking this gift (Ubuntu & the community) for granted.

[praxis22]

i don't know whether or not people find that behaviour abhorrent

Abhorrent, I don't know, annoying and unseemly, definitely.

You may or may not be aware of this, but there is an expectation in the wider world that people who are good with with computers should do free tech support whenever that fact becomes known. A lot like expecting a mechanic to diagnose you car/washing machine for free.

Many of the people here, (and elsewhere) are happy to help, mostly I suspect because they are quite evangelical in nature, they want people to like computers, and to think well of them, they want to "spread the word"

Now imagine somebody goes into a crowded church and says "help me God or I'm going back to the devil" You can understand that while many of congregation would be moved to help, the implied threat leaves a bad taste in the mouth.

It's one of the reasons why when I hand out my card in computer stores to people who have no clue, it only has my email and web address on it, I know that if you give people a phone number they'll just call you whenever *they* have a problem, they won't even think to check google, why should they when they have a tame expert, (or group thereof) at their beck and call.

This is more about teaching a man to fish, expecting them to learn how to fish, than to keep running the soup kitchen.

[grim192]

i'm in this situation now, i posted an ubuntu problem on another forum to which they couldn't help and sent me here. Being a n00b i posted 2 problems here (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=635900) and here (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=635913) (shameless pimping i know :oops:) to which the repsonses have been quite slow in coming even with the bumping. i see why people get frustrated though as you can't get on until the problem is sorted and knowing the answer is here some where it takes a little squeezing. their threads of frustration is really a cry for help rather than meaning to carry out their threats. tbh i think people should be more patient and at the same time people should try to be more helpful

grim

[praxis22]

I think you'll find that most people are willing to help you get the OS working, what many people resent is being asked to do application support, which is what you're asking for. Have you installed something else that does the same thing? Installed opera perhaps? We do expect you to be capable of doing this stuff on your own.

There is a fine line between helping somebody, holding their hand, and doing it for them. Often people will do it for you just to get you to shut up, this is not a good thing, and it means that they will likely not help you in future unless they can see you trying things on your own.

You will rarely be told this straight out, but you would much rather we give you hints that give you nothing at all.

[Tundro Walker]

On a positive note, at least the Ubuntu forums help promo using sensible thread titles, since it auto-searches for similar threads when you type yours in.

I can recall two occasions off-hand I was about to post asking for help, and the thread title I was going to use brought up several other threads that answered my question.

[RedNikon]

Helping someone because they are complaining isn't rewarding bad behavior. It's being a good neighbor, albeit help should have arrived before the complaining began, also the complainer should have been more patient, and tried to fix the problem or find a solution him/herself.

Instead of ignoring those people explain to them that patience is what is needed, and that their complaints aren't helping to fix their problem. That the best way to fix is to work together, then work with them to find a solution.

[Presto123]

Helping someone because they are complaining isn't rewarding bad behavior. It's being a good neighbor, albeit help should have arrived before the complaining began, also the complainer should have been more patient, and tried to fix the problem or find a solution him/herself.

Instead of ignoring those people explain to them that patience is what is needed, and that their complaints aren't helping to fix their problem. That the best way to fix is to work together, then work with them to find a solution.

I would add your "patience is needed" bit to my signature...lol, but I'm out of room. :P

[Redrazor39]

aysiu for the win

He is totally right. I am one of those newbies (just check my sig) and I sometimes do not get the help I need. When I do, it's a great feeling that someone in the know came and helped me solve my problem.

If only more people who know how to do.. well, ANYTHING in ubuntu spent more times in the help forums, this place would be the best and ubuntu would begin to catch some real momentum because it could almost become a selling point (without profit, of couse) for ubuntu. With more ubuntu users comes more ideas, with that comes more people who understand, and with all that comes a great OS that improves at a dramatic rate with thousands of people working on it. Just as linux should be.

[VLengoc]

I totaly agree

[Ripfox]

If someone posts one of those threads outside of "testimonials" I say we ignore completely. That will hopefully end it.

[Delever]

How about this thread (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=633324), for example. My latter post was probably OK, but my monkey picture probably wasn't the best thing in hindsight...

That I disagree with... :/

[sweeneytodd]

I disagree, how were you when you first started out with linux, did you get frustrated, when i started out, for a couple of weeks i was posting problems in the community cafe, they all got answered promptly and i'm very grateful of that, then i realised i should be posting in the beginners forum, and did.

At ever chance you get, help
its for the greater good of the ubuntu community
a few of you could use this advice in life too

[aysiu]

I disagree, how were you when you first started out with linux, did you get frustrated, when i started out, for a couple of weeks i was posting problems in the community cafe, they all got answered promptly and i'm very grateful of that, then i realised i should be posting in the beginners forum, and did.

At ever chance you get, help
its for the greater good of the ubuntu community
a few of you could use this advice in life too
Please re-read my original post. I have nothing against those who ask for help. In fact, good behavior, in this context is asking for help. Bad behavior is threatening to leave or bashing Ubuntu in order to steal attention from polite users.

[sweeneytodd]

fair enough, i haven't come across it, not saying it doesn't exist, I'm still reasonably new with ubuntu.
if this is the case..........mmmmmmm
not sure

[NewDisciple]

If someone is just on a rant I agree with ignoring them. After reading these forums for several years now it seems that the same questions are being asked over and over and over. Which tells me that many folks if not most, are not researching their problem before posting. Additionally, the right person may not be reading the forums at that time. However, if someone spits in my face I'm certainly not going to bend over backwards to help them.
Having said all of that, I am no Linux expert. A lot of the problems that are posted are beyond me as many are not daily functions. Now when I have a problem, I research it. The forum stickies are quite clear about searching to see if your question has already been answered. Should not forget that Google also has a function.
Since these forums are community driven I would expect each user to carry his own share of responsibilities and this includes new people. Matters such as respect for others, meaning, that we conduct ourselves in a civilized fashion.
If I invited someone to my home and they began ranting and threatening to go to the neighbors house because dinner was not ready the minute they walked in, I would have no problem what so ever in showing them the door.

[Frak]

Tanks MOM! Ur teh BESTSTS!!!

On a more serious note, why can't we have votes to close threads for various but logical reasons, as you have shown above.

i.e. Threads with a rating of 0-1 are shown to admins for review, and if the admin feels, the thread could be closed.

[LaRoza]

Tanks MOM! Ur teh BESTSTS!!!

On a more serious note, why can't we have votes to close threads for various but logical reasons, as you have shown above.

i.e. Threads with a rating of 0-1 are shown to admins for review, and if the admin feels, the thread could be closed.

You are report thread that have inappropriate content/titles.

[Frak]

You are report thread that have inappropriate content/titles.
Wait... those type of threads are innappropriate?

[aysiu]

I don't believe rant threads should be closed. I just believe they shouldn't lead to the ranter getting better help than the polite user asking for help in a non-rant thread.

[Frak]

I don't believe rant threads should be closed. I just believe they shouldn't lead to the ranter getting better help than the polite user asking for help in a non-rant thread.
But nay the choice of the community to show the aggressors the consequence of their actions? Of the communities own decission? The lesson learned would be greater than naught.

[|{urse]

screw this, im going back to fedora.

[aysiu]

But nay the choice of the community to show the aggressors the consequence of their actions? Of the communities own decission? The lesson learned would be greater than naught.
Can you translate that into modern English? I'm a bit lost...

[|{urse]

No results found for "But nay the choice of the community to show the aggressors".


Results for But nay the choice of the community to show the aggressors (without quotes):

lol frak, u waxing poetic?

[p_quarles]

But nay the choice of the community to show the aggressors the consequence of their actions? Of the communities own decission? The lesson learned would be greater than naught.
I'm with aysiu here. Ranters can rant if they like, and so long as they're not insulting people or swearing like a sailor, the thread can stay open. Basically, I don't think there need to be any negative consequences for ranting -- they just shouldn't be rewarded with help just because they threatened to go back to Windows (or Fedora ;) ). I've seen exactly that pattern here a lot -- someone makes a "threat" and then all sorts of people try to solve their technical problems.

And if you don't agree with me, I'm going to go back to the XKCD forums.

[cardinals_fan]

I'm with aysiu here. Ranters can rant if they like, and so long as they're not insulting people or swearing like a sailor, the thread can stay open. Basically, I don't think there need to be any negative consequences for ranting -- they just shouldn't be rewarded with help just because they threatened to go back to Windows (or Fedora ;) ). I've seen exactly that pattern here a lot -- someone makes a "threat" and then all sorts of people try to solve their technical problems.

And if you don't agree with me, I'm going to go back to the XKCD forums.
I instantly lose all desire to help someone as soon as I see those threats.

BTW, the threat at the end of your post offends me. I'm off to the Zenwalk Forums ;)

[jsmidt]

it's not bad behavior. people who are new can get easily frustrated. are you only willing to help the people who act the way you think they should? help them out and give them a chance to get over their little fits and maybe they'll turn into contructive little ubuntu-ites.

I completely agree with this quote. If bad behavior gets out of hand you have to stop it. But sometimes they just are new to Linux, have rough edges, could use our help, but don't know the proper way to go about requesting help.

Help, then explain how they could go about getting help in a more mature way. If it gets worse, then punish/ignore them.

[aysiu]

If people helped new users evenly, then I would have never created this thread.

My issue is this.

1. Someone creates a support thread kindly asking for help.
2. She gets one or two replies.
3. She gives up on Ubuntu and posts an "I hate Ubuntu" or "I'm going back to Windows" thread.
4. Suddenly, in the "Ubuntu sucks" thread she created, she is bombarded with help - the thread turns into a five- or six-page long support thread with forum members working hard to get this person not to give up on Ubuntu.

I've seen it happen all too many times. What I'm saying is that all these people who came in on step 4 of the process and are dying to help this person should have helped that same person when she asked nicely for help in the first place, not when she threatened to leave.

This is not about rewarding or punishing people. This is about rewarding or punishing behavior.

In the situation described above, the new user is sent the message "If you ask for help nicely, you might get a little help or none at all, but if you threaten to leave or insult Ubuntu, you'll get a lot of help."

That's rewarding bad behavior.

Whether the new user gets help in Step 2 or in Step 4, she still gets help. It's not about helping some users and not helping other users. It's about the message we send when we ignore users asking politely for help and then do everything in our power to help out those same users when they display childish behavior.

If you believe Step 3 is a natural reaction to frustration, then perhaps people should help out at Step 2 and not allow the new user to be frustrated in the first place.

[Ripfox]

Not too hard to understand imo.

[kevdog]

I'M GOING BACK TO WINDOWS....

Ok, maybe someone will read this thread. Ever notice when a new group of mods come into the forums, a bunch of threads are suddenly closed for about 1-2 months, and then the pure number of threads closed simply wanes? Maybe instead of closing threads there should be a rant section like the jail, that rant threads could be placed into. They are funny to read sometimes.

[aysiu]

Maybe instead of closing threads there should be a rant section like the jail, that rant threads could be placed into. They are funny to read sometimes. There is a section. It's called Ubuntu Testimonials and Experiences. It has a mix of testimonials... and experiences (including bad experiences).

Every time I see a rant posted elsewhere, I move it to UTaE instead of closing it.

[jrusso2]

I read the rants first. They are my favorite. I don't always post on them though. But its kind of like a train wreck you don't want to look but you just do anyway.

[aysiu]

I read the rants first. They are my favorite. I don't always post on them though. But its kind of like a train wreck you don't want to look but you just do anyway.
Oh, I read the rants. I don't have a problem with rants. I just have a problem with rants leading to the ranter getting more help than when she asked for help nicely.

[Frak]

If people helped new users evenly, then I would have never created this thread.

My issue is this.

1. Someone creates a support thread kindly asking for help.
2. She gets one or two replies.
3. She gives up on Ubuntu and posts an "I hate Ubuntu" or "I'm going back to Windows" thread.
4. Suddenly, in the "Ubuntu sucks" thread she created, she is bombarded with help - the thread turns into a five- or six-page long support thread with forum members working hard to get this person not to give up on Ubuntu.

I've seen it happen all too many times. What I'm saying is that all these people who came in on step 4 of the process and are dying to help this person should have helped that same person when she asked nicely for help in the first place, not when she threatened to leave.

This is not about rewarding or punishing people. This is about rewarding or punishing behavior.

In the situation described above, the new user is sent the message "If you ask for help nicely, you might get a little help or none at all, but if you threaten to leave or insult Ubuntu, you'll get a lot of help."

That's rewarding bad behavior.

Whether the new user gets help in Step 2 or in Step 4, she still gets help. It's not about helping some users and not helping other users. It's about the message we send when we ignore users asking politely for help and then do everything in our power to help out those same users when they display childish behavior.

If you believe Step 3 is a natural reaction to frustration, then perhaps people should help out at Step 2 and not allow the new user to be frustrated in the first place.
This is what I am talking about!!!


The lesson learned would be greater than naught.

The lesson learned by the poster will be greater than [nothing].
If enough more-experienced users show their wisdom in ratings, then the poster could be punished for trying to use anger for an answer.

[aysiu]

It happened again.

This is really, really sad.

Someone, a forum member here, posted a problem four weeks ago about USB mounting problems, and nobody answered. That same person posted today about the same problem but included a flamebait title and got four pages of responses within hours.

Wake up, people! This is the message you're sending, "Use a descriptive title and ask nicely, and we'll ignore you; post flamebait and we will help you." Is that really the message you want to send to new users?

[Robux the great]

I couldn't agree more

Regards

Rob

[keiichidono]

I agree with you, the only way to solve it is to have some people post in the new thread about how they are not going to tolerate any kind of bad behavior, and will consider looking into the help thread. That would send a message to newbies and other members on what to do in the future.

[cmay]

i will post this as a user respond based on my experience here .

please look my history of postings.
you will see that i have never bumped a tread.
not even the bumptread.

i have posted many times and the replies i get answer to
is mostly in the programmering talk forums.
this is like when i was working as an assistent on a old folks home.
the ones who was strong enough to complaint always had all the attention.

i dont you cant change that overnight.

i wish however that as peopel like me who has a bit hard whit reading sometimes should not have to see so many this and that sucks treads
maybe some more tutorials and some more look here -> for all the peopel that cant see or dont have the time to see it by searching .

i btw will nerver leave ubuntu or the community as such.
but as this is hard for me to see sometimes i can have troubles finding the post that clearly indicates a solution to my problem already have been found.
i hope sincerely that this forum will find a solution that suits all users the best.

thanks for the time everybody.

and a big thanks to those who has helped me where i could not find the thank you button. all answers deserves a thank you.

[lud666]

helping them with their problems isn't rewarding them. it's helping them. they deserve help because that's what using linux is about. if someone's a jerk, let them be a jerk (letting people be what they are, whether you like them or not, is also what linux is about). no one is telling you that you have to help them, so don't be telling other people who they can or cannot help.

additionally: when you help a jerk, you're helping the next person who comes along with the same problem who might not have the chutzpa to be so whiney.

I would have to agree. Switching to Linux when your only OS experience is preinstalled windows can be really frustrating, sometimes you need to vent. Of course if you spend time looking for a solution or politely asking for help rather than venting your more likely to actually get somewhere, but to each his own I guess...

[aysiu]

Of course if you spend time looking for a solution or politely asking for help rather than venting your more likely to actually get somewhere You'd like to think that, but that's not the case at all. That's the problem. People are giving more help to those who post flamebait than to those who ask politely.

If what you said were true, I would never have created this plea to the community in the first place.

[Arthur Archnix]

+1 for Aysiu's original post. Not sure if I've ever done that, but I'll certainly watch out for it now. This is quite significant for me, because it violates my third rule. I have three rules I don't violate. Well, now two. But the third one was that I'd never take anyone who uses an Eee seriously. That'd be like letting the guy wearing the Care Bear t-shirt lead your peace march. You just will not be taken seriously. It's a glorified and really cute calculator. I can't believe they got linux on it. It's like an etch-a-sketch. But smaller. They named it the Eee because that's the sound little girls with ribbons in their hair make when they see one.

So let me also congratulate Aysiu, for breaking down barriers and shattering myths about Eee pc users. They are not all hobbits or elves. Some are larger than a seven year old girl. And apparently, at least one, has a good head on his shoulders...which is more than four feet above the ground. I think.

[John.Michael.Kane]

You'd like to think that, but that's not the case at all. That's the problem. People are giving more help to those who post flamebait than to those who ask politely.

If what you said were true, I would never have created this plea to the community in the first place.

Asking forum members not to reward bad posting behavior, seems to have worked in the short term, however. There still seems to be threads where an user is venting/frustrated.

Right now we have forum members being asked not to reward bad posting behavior, which brings the risk of losing some would be users.

How can the forums properly combat a situation which obviously is frustrating to some forum members, without being rude or alienating a new user who is posting while being frustrated with the lack of help, or the slowness of the responses they receive?

[KingTermite]

I'm totally on this page. :)

[Bubba64]

Enabling is part of the human condition, if anybody here is able to go through life not practicing this you would be awfully lonely. Nobody is free from this built in phenomena. Behavioral psychology would in some theories support this contention, but we are not trying to stop something that is a life threatening action. So what if somebody complains look past the surface response in yourself and the other it is the enlightened action the hero's of myth practice.

A person could argue that if you complain then you open the doors for others, but try and prove this with scientific inquiry based investigation.

[aysiu]

How can the forums properly combat a situation which obviously is frustrating to some forum members, without being rude or alienating a new user who is posting while being frustrated with the lack of help, or the slowness of the responses they receive? In answer to your question: if you know the answer to a question, answer it when it's asked politely.

As I said before, the most recent iteration of this phenomenon was someone asking nicely and getting no responses for four weeks. Only after said poster posted the same problem but with a flamebait thread title did the responses come pouring in. Same user. Different behavior. Good behavior got ignored. Bad behavior got rewarded.

Reward the good behavior. I don't see what the predicament is.

[Bubba64]

In answer to your question: if you know the answer to a question, answer it when it's asked politely.

As I said before, the most recent iteration of this phenomenon was someone asking nicely and getting no responses for four weeks. Only after said poster posted the same problem but with a flamebait thread title did the responses come pouring in. Same user. Different behavior. Good behavior got ignored. Bad behavior got rewarded.

Reward the good behavior. I don't see what the predicament is.

Frustration can be alleviated when you realize that maybe just maybe any one of us may practice the same behavior ourselves in another part of our own lives. Most frustration with others is a projection of what we may or may not realize about ourselves.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection:)

Edit I would say though that behavior that skirts the edge of or goes into breaking the Code Of Conduct does make the job harder for the Moderators. I would also say That I do volunteer work for a social service agency that leaves me drained every time I leave, but it is my choice to do the work nobody is forcing me.

[cmay]

the ubuntu forums are not paid support and therefore we should all consider the help one gets or not gets as a gift.

it did not cost anything to post the question.
it do not cost anything to have it unanswered .

the operative system are free as is.

maybe that should be made more clear to newcomers .

honestly if one wants to "go back to windows" instead of helping improve this forums by accepting this gift as is then i cant understand it.

[Bubba64]

the ubuntu forums are not paid support and therefore we should all consider the help one gets or not gets as a gift.

it did not cost anything to post the question.
it do not cost anything to have it unanswered .

the operative system are free as is.

maybe that should be made more clear to newcomers .

honestly if one wants to "go back to windows" instead of helping improve this forums by accepting this gift as is then i cant understand it.

This attempt to control behavior beyond enforcement of the COC is about as effective as emptying a swimming pool with a bucket while a hose is running water into it. Personally I am more offended by this idea than anybody complaining. It is not enforcible and at best a control method that is not functional. There is already a measurement of enforcement with the COC. SO now we should pull out our graphing calculators and slide rule, to measure, and try to control the complainer, and the person who might help them. Not taking into consideration that both parties may contribute to the database in answers to problems, and helping others in the future. This is a community forum let us not forget, and we all react to whatever stimulus in our own way, any limitation of this expression beyond rules already in place is a pipe dream.

[koenn]

This is a community forum let us not forget, and we all react to whatever stimulus in our own way, ...

but don't you think it's at least a bit peculiar that on a technical support forum, people apparently are not motivated to give tech support, unless one makes it personal by insulting something they care about ?

[Bubba64]

but don't you think it's at least a bit peculiar that on a technical support forum, people apparently are not motivated to give tech support, unless one makes it personal by insulting something they care about ?

That is a good question but it involves a lot of assumption at least that what it feels to me. Personally I try and help everybody I can, but I have limited knowledge. What I see when somebody gets more aggressive in their need expression is a very small amount of help and a lot of abuse of the frustrated person. In the end I just think that trying to gang people up not to help unless they communicate in a way that is not really measurable is working against the idea of working together. I also think that this a wasteful thread if your were able to actually measure if it has changed the process at all I think we would find that nothing is different, nor will it ever change. It is just a complaint board. :)

[Tomatz]

This may seem a bit of a stupid idea but if a thread is not answered for say a few days. It would be good if the poster could request a "day long" sticky or movement to an "escalated help" section so that his/her post would be better noticed.

I'm not sure if this could be implemented easily in vbulletin via a button like the report button???

The only trouble with this is you probably would get hundreds of requests a day ;)

[forestpixie]

Only after said poster posted the same problem but with a flamebait thread title did the responses come pouring in. Same user. Different behavior. Good behavior got ignored. Bad behavior got rewarded.

Not sure if it is the same thread - but yesterday there was a whiny thread in Absolute Beginners - it obviously got moved to the testimonial forum and then because the op moaned about that it got put back into the Abs Beg forum.

What is the point in doing that - not only was the behaviour rewarded by people helping, but someone able to move threads did the same and moved it again.

[loell]

I noticed that those who are against this plea, are not that long time forum members. thinking that they've seen it all? try passionately helping users a little longer say 3 years? and the perhaps your perspective will change in favor of this plea. try whining on a specific foss project forum and you'll see that the idea is in fact being practiced, also in the physical world we are living the idea isn't different.

[chucky chuckaluck]

You'd like to think that, but that's not the case at all. That's the problem. People are giving more help to those who post flamebait than to those who ask politely.

knowing as little as i do, i can't afford to be picky about who i help. and, i'm certainly not going to hold what little i know ransom.

[Bubba64]

I noticed that those who are against this plea, are not that long time forum members. thinking that they've seen it all? try passionately helping users a little longer say 3 years? and the perhaps your perspective will change in favor of this plea. try whining on a specific foss project forum and you'll see that the idea is in fact being practiced, also in the physical world we are living the idea isn't different.

Your argument makes no sense, to many variables. Besides that in 6 months I have generated close to 2/3s of thanked responses that has taken you 2 years and 7 months of time here. Using your logic it may be that I have spent a lot of time on the forums looking for people to help. I am not even a geek I bought my first computer which was dapper installed 2 years ago. I am a psychology major who volunteers in social programs that help people who need it, I think empathy is the key word here not judgment. All of the arguments that support this thread are corelational opinions with no consideration that the variables are not even measurable. I want to see solid evidence of these arguments not personal opinions.

[Bubba64]

knowing as little as i do, i can't afford to be picky about who i help. and, i'm certainly not going to hold what little i know ransom.

As usual the erudite logical response, good job!!!!!!!!!!!!!:mrgreen:

[Arthur Archnix]

I am a psychology major

You're a psychology major? Wow, I NEVER would have guessed that. :rolleyes:

You really can't tell from your posts either. There's no.. no uhh.. corellationalizing patterns of psycho recongiti..err... there's no way to tell.

PS: Your evaluative framework is flawed. You've only been able to thank people for about 6 months. New feature to the forums. Welcome.


Besides that in 6 months I have generated close to 2/3s of thanked responses that has taken you 2 years and 7 months of time here.

[Tomatz]

You're a psychology major? Wow, I NEVER would have guessed that. :rolleyes:

You really can't tell from your posts either. There's no.. no uhh.. corellationalizing patterns of psycho recongiti..err... there's no way to tell.

PS: Your evaluative framework is flawed. You've only been able to thank people for about 6 months. New feature to the forums. Welcome.

[edit]

The fun just turned into anger :(

[Bubba64]

You're a psychology major? Wow, I NEVER would have guessed that. :rolleyes:

You really can't tell from your posts either. There's no.. no uhh.. corellationalizing patterns of psycho recongiti..err... there's no way to tell.

PS: Your evaluative framework is flawed. You've only been able to thank people for about 6 months. New feature to the forums. Welcome.

I am talking about thanks for helping others. You immediately post without looking at the threads I have going right now, more personal opinions based on a projection, with a subtle attempt to insult me. Oh and your last post with your maligning the users of Eeepc shows such a mature outlook, but wait you did suck up to the OP. Your lack of understanding that corelational data is not a valid base is also so telling.

[mdsmedia]

I am talking about thanks for helping others. You immediately post without looking at the threads I have going right now, more personal opinions based on a projection, with a subtle attempt to insult me. Oh and your last post with your maligning the users of Eeepc shows such a mature outlook, but wait you did suck up to the OP. Your lack of understanding that corelational data is not a valid base is also so telling.I think what he was trying to say was that the "Thanks" and "Thanked" tags have only been around for about 6 months, so the numbers are meaningless...and like the beans, less bragging is required.

Now, the original reason for my post, because I jumped from page 3 to here and read the previous page...a little..... rantings of people bragging about being thanked. Is that what it's all about??

What I was going to say is, I have been the subject of what aysiu originally posted. I asked for help, didn't get it, so I used a title something like "I'm going back to Windows" and got immediate results. My first post in the thread explained that I had no intention of going back to Windows but it had the desired effect.

I couldn't agree more with aysiu's OP. Give less attention to those who whine and more to those who are realistically asking for support.

[Tomatz]

I think what he was trying to say was that the "Thanks" and "Thanked" tags have only been around for about 6 months, so the numbers are meaningless...and like the beans, less bragging is required.

But it must be noted that Bubba64 has helped more people than you, recently anyway.

[mdsmedia]

But it must be noted that Bubba64 has helped more people than you, recently anyway.Of course, but his avatar isn't as ugly as yours either lol.

[Tomatz]

Of course, but his avatar isn't as ugly as yours either lol.

Beauty is only skin deep :)


:lolflag:

[Bubba64]

I think what he was trying to say was that the "Thanks" and "Thanked" tags have only been around for about 6 months, so the numbers are meaningless...and like the beans, less bragging is required.

Now, the original reason for my post, because I jumped from page 3 to here and read the previous page...a little..... rantings of people bragging about being thanked. Is that what it's all about??

What I was going to say is, I have been the subject of what aysiu originally posted. I asked for help, didn't get it, so I used a title something like "I'm going back to Windows" and got immediate results. My first post in the thread explained that I had no intention of going back to Windows but it had the desired effect.

I couldn't agree more with aysiu's OP. Give less attention to those who whine and more to those who are realistically asking for support.

I didn't know the thanks or thanked tags were that young I stand corrected.

[chucky chuckaluck]

Beauty is only skin deep :)


:lolflag:

i assure you, i am stunning throughout.

:guitar:

[Tomatz]

i assure you, i am stunning throughout.

:guitar:

Whey!!

My chukalucks in!!!


:lolflag:

[Bubba64]

Of course, but his avatar isn't as ugly as yours either lol.

Hey now Zippy The Pinhead is a classic comic book character, I'm just kidding, I'm not a comic reader in general.:) In the end I feel the complaints of helping people under the auspices described is on the same level as the people maligned.

[Tomatz]

Hey now Zippy The Pinhead is a classic comic book character, I'm just kidding, I'm not a comic reader in general.:) In the end I feel the complaints of helping people under the auspices described is on the same level as the people maligned.

I agree on all points but auspices and maligned. As i am thick and don't know what they mean :(

[loell]

Your argument makes no sense, to many variables. Besides that in 6 months I have generated close to 2/3s of thanked responses that has taken you 2 years and 7 months of time here. Using your logic it may be that I have spent a lot of time on the forums looking for people to help. I am not even a geek I bought my first computer which was dapper installed 2 years ago. I am a psychology major who volunteers in social programs that help people who need it, I think empathy is the key word here not judgment. All of the arguments that support this thread are corelational opinions with no consideration that the variables are not even measurable. I want to see solid evidence of these arguments not personal opinions.

not only does your argument with the thank you feature flawed, you claimed to have empathy? and not pass judgment? well, what are you doing now?

imo, its hard to apply what you've learned in your field in here, for one, you wouldn't know while you're applying your empathetic skills the whining user on the other end is just raising his middle finger.

[rune0077]

I couldn't agree more with aysiu's OP. Give less attention to those who whine and more to those who are realistically asking for support.

Stop listening to whiners?!? You must be kidding. Sorry, listening to whiners, sympathizing with them, and indeed letting them inspire us to whine with them is a time-honored European tradition. Suggesting to stop doing that clearly shows a certain lack of respect for European culture: you might as well ask us to give up our national identity.

(I'll let people decide for themselves how much of the above was meant as sarcasm)

[Tomatz]

not only does your argument with the thank you feature flawed, you claimed to have empathy? and not pass judgment? well, what are you doing now?

imo, its hard to apply what you've learned in your field in here, for one, you wouldn't know while you're applying your empathetic skills the whining user on the other end is just raising his middle finger.

The whinging posts are annoying and they don't help one bit but this is a tech support forum so things shouldn't have to get to that level of complaining.

What the forum needs is a better system to escalate problems after a certain ammount of time.

Less whinging, better support, all winners!

[mdsmedia]

I didn't know the thanks or thanked tags were that young I stand corrected.BTW, the thanks I have received have been for opinion pieces, so once again, the numbers are meaningless, though I appreciate them.

I love advancing in the bean count, but it has little meaning other than a triviality. I love being thanked for my posts, but that's all it is...appreciation. It means nothing more than appreciation. It has no ranking.

I've been here for nearly 3 years and receive help regularly from people with lower bean counts than me. aysiu has been here for little longer than me and his bean count is 100x mine. I help where I can. aysiu helps where he can. I don't know where he gets it from but he's a phenomenon.

[mdsmedia]

Stop listening to whiners?!? You must be kidding. Sorry, listening to whiners, sympathizing with them, and indeed letting them inspire us to whine with them is a time-honored European tradition. Suggesting to stop doing that clearly shows a certain lack of respect for European culture: you might as well ask us to give up our national identity.

(I'll let people decide for themselves how much of the above was meant as sarcasm)hehehe, I'm a heat seeker myself. I tend to click on whining posts because I get a little defensive of things I believe in. Also, I have little knowledge of Linux, so I feel I can "help" more in defending Linux and Ubuntu ;).

[Bubba64]

not only does your argument with the thank you feature flawed, you claimed to have empathy? and not pass judgment? well, what are you doing now?

imo, its hard to apply what you've learned in your field in here, for one, you wouldn't know while you're applying your empathetic skills the whining user on the other end is just raising his middle finger.

I never claimed to be using a psychological approach here. I don't really care if somebody gives me the finger, even you. You just want to argue, using a semi passive aggressive stance. Make a solid argument that is supported by reliable data of the threads theme, not just personal opinions.

[Arthur Archnix]

Poor aysiu... now not only does he have an Eee, but also, his perfectly reasonable plea (not demand) that people should either feel free to follow or ignore, has degenerated into a thread about... about whatever it is about.

How about this... if you disagree with him you're not going to convince him. He's got 28,650 posts. His opinions about how to behave are formed. So, either respectfully disagree and move on to help the whiners because you believe that's the right thing to do, or agree with him and make an effort not to.

Otherwise, how about we reduce the noise and background chatter. My jokes about Eee users notwithstanding. ;)

[forestpixie]

What the forum needs is a better system to escalate problems after a certain ammount of time.

Agree with that, another thing to think about are the threads that have had a great deal of help and after some time the people who are helping just can't do anymore and the thread dies of with a few plaintive 'bumps'.

Perhaps a forum where things could be moved, regardless of topic, where only threads which need more in depth knowledge should go - everybody gains - the people with the deep thought know where they knowledge could be used to the most advantage and everyone else knows where togo to learn some new things.

[loell]

The whinging posts are annoying and they don't help one bit but this is a tech support forum so things shouldn't have to get to that level of complaining.

What the forum needs is a better system to escalate problems after a certain ammount of time.

Less whinging, better support, all winners!

if im not mistaken this is the purpose why the none answered post team is created? together with absolute beginner team, or i could be totally wrong, i wonder if these teams are still in existence.

having said that, i wonder how can one comfort a lonely user on a difficult thread but still patiently waits for help?

[mdsmedia]

Poor aysiu... now not only does he have an Eee, but also, his perfectly reasonable plea (not demand) that people should either feel free to follow or ignore, has degenerated into a thread about... about whatever it is about.

How about this... if you disagree with him you're not going to convince him. He's got 28,650 posts. His opinions about how to behave are formed. So, either respectfully disagree and move on to help the whiners because you believe that's the right thing to do, or agree with him and make an effort not to.

Otherwise, how about we reduce the noise and background chatter. My jokes about Eee users notwithstanding. ;)Having a thread in the "zero response" column, I couldn't agree more...but are you saying we can't sit and argue about it anymore??

[forestpixie]

if im not mistaken this is the purpose why the none answered post team is created? together with absolute beginner team, or i could be totally wrong, i wonder if these teams are still in existence.

having said that, i wonder how can one comfort a lonely user on a difficult thread but still patiently waits for help?

They are both still there afaik - but if a thread has had responses , but it's not going anywhere, or the person who has been helping becomes unsure of the solution - the op is left hoping that someone else happens across it - and how many times should a thread be bumped.

Then I guess people start posting new threads about the same thing and get the 'don't double post'.

I'm sure you've seen the absolute beginners forum more times than I have change completely in 10 minutes because it's moved so fast.

Just wonder if somewhere could be made to park threads for more knowledgeable members to at least knwo about - just a thought.

[loell]

Just wonder if somewhere could be made to park threads for more knowledgeable members to at least knwo about - just a thought.

i was thinking of an AJAX cloud and the cloud gets bigger if a thread doesn't get responses in a certain ammount of time :)

but then again even if there's feature that would make unanswered thread gets more visibility, if the problem is just beyond anyone's technical prowess, it will go nowhere like you said.

[hanzomon4]

Good Lord, if you know how to help someone with a particular problem just do it. Why make it so personal?

[mdsmedia]

They are both still there afaik - but if a thread has had responses , but it's not going anywhere, or the person who has been helping becomes unsure of the solution - the op is left hoping that someone else happens across it - and how many times should a thread be bumped.

Then I guess people start posting new threads about the same thing and get the 'don't double post'.

I'm sure you've seen the absolute beginners forum more times than I have change completely in 10 minutes because it's moved so fast.

Just wonder if somewhere could be made to park threads for more knowledgeable members to at least knwo about - just a thought.Agreed. i don't know the answer. I know that I've bumped my own threads at times only to think later that if I hadn't bumped it it would still be a zero reply thread and then might be answered.

Of course, if somebody with good intentions answers that they don't know it also moves it out of the zero reply thread column.

[forestpixie]

i was thinking of an AJAX cloud and the cloud gets bigger if a thread doesn't get responses in a certain ammount of time :)

but then again even if there's feature that would make unanswered thread gets more visibility, if the problem is just beyond anyone's technical prowess, it will go nowhere like you said.


I'm more getting at the thread that isn't beyond everyones tech knowledge but the ones that have been answered to the best of a few peoples ability - but it still isn't solved.

Then obviously you can't search for 0 replies - because it's not anymore and perhaps there is a likelihood that someone with more experience would be able to answer the problem - how do you get it noticed?

Perhaps an unsolved option like the solved one - but make it time dependent in some way so that you couldn't mark your thread for a week or so.

I don't know the answer - I can just imagine it being really frustrating to get most of an answer and then it coming to a deadend through nobodies fault.


No idea what an AJAX cloud is by the way :)

[Tomatz]

Who wants to take a more proactive stance to this issue and set up a group to tackle problems with little or no reply.

We could setup links in our sig so people could pm us if they stumble across an unreplyed thread.

Its got to be better than nothing :)

[koenn]

Good Lord, if you know how to help someone with a particular problem just do it. Why make it so personal?

That wasn't the question.
The question was : why ignore a problem if it is phrased in a neutral manner, but solve that same problem if it is accompanied by insult, provocation and threat.
(which suggests that the neutrally phrased problem could have been answered as well, but somehow people choose to ignore it)

[forestpixie]

Who wants to take a more proactive stance to this issue and set up a group to tackle problems with little or no reply.

We could setup links in our sig so people could pm us if they stumble across an unreplyed thread.

Its got to be better than nothing :)

I'd be prepared to help the not got anywhere threads - but there is a no reply team already isn't there.

[Tomatz]

I'd be prepared to help the not got anywhere threads - but there is a no reply team already isn't there.

Didn't realise there was? If there is, i may aswell join it instead of setting a new one up. :)

[forestpixie]

But that still won't help the few response threads will it :)

[Arthur Archnix]

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh197/ArthurArchnix/letmesplainsd.jpg

[Tomatz]

But that still won't help the few response threads will it :)

Probably not but it's worth doing ;)

Cynical Britts, were all the same :(

:lolflag:

[atomkarinca]

Who wants to take a more proactive stance to this issue and set up a group to tackle problems with little or no reply.

We could setup links in our sig so people could pm us if they stumble across an unreplyed thread.

Its got to be better than nothing :)

Under Search button there's an option "Advanced Search", you can select threads with at most 0 replies and start from there. It's very fun :)

[Tomatz]

Under Search button there's an option "Advanced Search", you can select threads with at most 0 replies and start from there. It's very fun :)

Thanks for that. I didn't notice it :)

[matthew]

Someone asked (very politely) if I would look at this thread and give any thoughts I might have, especially on the ideas in the last 20 or so posts.

After having looked at it, I really think that there isn't a technological answer to the problem of mostly-answered or partially-answered posts, at least not one that we have the manpower and/or resources to solve. What we can do is continue to encourage people to answer questions when they can, others to give as high of quality information when asking questions as they know how to give, and then we hope.

I say this as a person who has had several questions go unanswered over the years...but, then, I don't tend to ask particularly simple or common questions. I think this is probably the case the overwhelming majority of the time for others as well. It's a bummer, but it happens. :)

[Tomatz]

Someone asked (very politely) if I would look at this thread and give any thoughts I might have, especially on the ideas in the last 20 or so posts.

After having looked at it, I really think that there isn't a technological answer to the problem of mostly-answered or partially-answered posts, at least not one that we have the manpower and/or resources to solve. What we can do is continue to encourage people to answer questions when they can, others to give as high of quality information when asking questions as they know how to give, and then we hope.

I say this as a person who has had several questions go unanswered over the years...but, then, I don't tend to ask particularly simple or common questions. I think this is probably the case the overwhelming majority of the time for others as well. It's a bummer, but it happens. :)


Thanks for looking into the matter :)

[forestpixie]

Thanks for looking into the matter :)

+1

Still think it only needs a forum into which threads could be moved. But there you go I made my case.

[Tomatz]

+1

Still think it only needs a forum into which threads could be moved. But there you go I made my case.

So is life ;)

[overdrank]

if im not mistaken this is the purpose why the none answered post team is created? together with absolute beginner team, or i could be totally wrong, i wonder if these teams are still in existence.


Hi and yes the teams are going good. But please correct me if I am wrong with about 35 active member on the beginners team it is hard to cover this site. The UAP team is still active as most members of the BT ( beginners team) are member of the UAP ( unanswered post). I myself have lots of time being partially disable and unemployed but I lack the expertises in a lot of the post for help. I will still search and try to provide links to help but again this site contains many. :)

[Tomatz]

I just created a group, the zero reply thread team. If anyone wants to join, that would be great :)

[PmDematagoda]

I just created a group, the zero reply thread team. If anyone wants to join, that would be great :)

We already have it Tomatz, the Unanswered Posts team, you can join that if you wish:).

[Tomatz]

We already have it Tomatz, the Unanswered Posts team, you can join that if you wish:).

Cool. I did look for it but couldn't find it. Hence, i created my own.

I will join now though :)

[Dale61]

I've found that a majority of the 'help me' requests could have been resolved if the OP just did a search. They would then have found that a similar problem has already been posted, and usually, a resolution has been found.

Those who don't search first a the lazy ones who don't deserve help, but who am I to determine that?

[chucky chuckaluck]

I've found that a majority of the 'help me' requests could have been resolved if the OP just did a search. They would then have found that a similar problem has already been posted, and usually, a resolution has been found.

Those who don't search first a the lazy ones who don't deserve help, but who am I to determine that?

i might have said this before, but sometimes super beginners don't even know what to search for. i look back at some of the questions i asked when i first got started and i think "what a retard", but at the time, i was totally lost (still am, sometimes).

[matthew]

i might have said this before, but sometimes super beginners don't even know what to search for. i look back at some of the questions i asked when i first got started and i think "what a retard", but at the time, i was totally lost (still am, sometimes).I agree. I've been there. We all have (if we are honest). That's why we all try to make this an easy site for a beginner to ask a question, even if it is a "dumb" one. This is why we never want users to berate or talk down to new members. :)

[Dale61]

i might have said this before, but sometimes super beginners don't even know what to search for. i look back at some of the questions i asked when i first got started and i think "what a retard", but at the time, i was totally lost (still am, sometimes).

There is a forum for super beginners, and that is where they should be going to first. How can anyone ask a question if they have NFI what they are talking about in the first place?

My point was directed more to those who know how to explain their problem, and know where an answer might be, but are just too damn lazy to search first.

[Dale61]

Let me add that when I first switched to Ubuntu (July '06), I spent a good 5-6 months just working my way through the Beginners thread. That way, I got myself up to speed with the terminology needed to advance, and to get my head around a totally new way of using my pc.

[23meg]

The question was : why ignore a problem if it is phrased in a neutral manner, but solve that same problem if it is accompanied by insult, provocation and threat.
(which suggests that the neutrally phrased problem could have been answered as well, but somehow people choose to ignore it)

That assumes that the same group of people who come up with helpful posts in the testimonials forum when insulted actually actively monitored the support forums, saw and read the posts that the attention seeker had made, and didn't answer them for whatever reason. That may not necessarily be the case, and we may be assuming a false homogeneity.

It may be that we have groups of people who only monitor the testimonials forum, or that forum dominantly, and are not particularly aware that that forum is not meant for providing support. It may be that we have a group of people who have a certain threshold of attention that needs to be crossed before they will go out and help others. It may be that groups of people may only or mostly be acting as the last line of defense in what they see as emergency situations (someone on the verge of leaving Ubuntu being such an emergency). There may be widely accepted psychological explanations for the various behaviors depicted in this thread which may also be prevalent in other (not necessarily online, not necessarily software related) communities. It may be that all the above are valid, simultaneously in varying degrees at varying times among different groups and individuals, creating a heterogeneity that any holistic "plea to the community", even one that pinpoints the problem so accurately as aysiu's, will fail to address.

If that is the case, as with any problem arising from such complex heterogeneities, this would first need to be broken down to specifics; that is, specific patterns of forum participation (for which the administrators probably have concrete data), specific sets of estimated failure patterns of new users, specific episodes that indicate recurring patterns of behavior among the "sides" involved, etc.

* puts on formalist hat *

It's quite an interesting social problem that can make a good case study for students of sociology or social anthropology. If any humanities / social sciences people are reading this who are disillusioned with the shortage of results from all the talk of "Free software shouldn't be by and for coders only any more; we should involve more people from different disciplines", here's a nice problem to tackle for you! Have at it.

[Bubba64]

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh197/ArthurArchnix/letmesplainsd.jpg

Wow man how do you type with paws.:)

[Ectara]

I think we should only refuse to help people who mention going back to a M$ product. If they really believe that slapping all of the Linux community in the face is going to get results, let them see how little support they should be getting. But I don't use Ubuntu, but Debian; they are similar enough for me to use the advice.

[Mason Whitaker]

I think we should only refuse to help people who mention going back to a M$ product. If they really believe that slapping all of the Linux community in the face is going to get results, let them see how little support they should be getting. But I don't use Ubuntu, but Debian; they are similar enough for me to use the advice.

We shouldn't openly refuse to help someone because they are switching back to Windows, but I doubt anyone would help if the situation ever arose.

[aysiu]

Well, it's not even really the people that are the target of my rant. It's really about the behavior.

If one person behaves properly (asks politely for help) and then that same person, not getting a proper response the first time, behaves improperly (threatening to leave for Windows or insulting the Ubuntu or larger Linux community), then it doesn't make to help that person at the later time.

If any help was going to be offered, it should have been offered the first time, not the second time. It's not about helping these people versus those people. It's about rewarding this behavior and not rewarding that behavior.

People are often like Pavlov's dogs. If you teach them "Threaten to leave and offer insults and we'll help you right away; ask nicely and we'll ignore you," then, guess what--people will threaten to leave and offer insults. If, however, you teach them "Ask nicely and we'll help you; threaten to leave, and we'll let you leave," then they will ask nicely... or just leave without threats.

[SomeGuyDude]

Also worth mentioning that if the "oh f!@# you guys if you can't even help me on something like this" attitude is accepted, tolerated, and otherwise condoned then that drags the whole forum down because thread after thread will devolve into insults and such. Without setting some standards, and trying in some way to enforce them, the forum as a whole goes down the crappa.

[cmay]

People are often like Pavlov's dogs. If you teach them "Threaten to leave and offer insults and we'll help you right away; ask nicely and we'll ignore you," then, guess what--people will threaten to leave and offer insults. If, however, you teach them "Ask nicely and we'll help you; threaten to leave, and we'll let you leave," then they will ask nicely... or just leave without threats.i find it somewhere strange also that this works. maybe it is since we are a little social club and as all humans we like to not exclude or be excluded from the little social club. i wonder what happens if i compliant about java being to hard to install in ubunutu and treathen to stop using ubuntu and go use solaris instead. or complian that the commandline is to hard and treathen to go use Freedos instead. could be an experiment in human social behavior worht trying out if it did not earn me any infractions. :)

i am surprised to see this tread still active. nice post by the way.

[aysiu]

i find it somewhere strange also that this works. maybe it is since we are a little social club and as all humans we like to not exclude or be excluded from the little social club. i wonder what happens if i compliant about java being to hard to install in ubunutu and treathen to stop using ubuntu and go use solaris instead. or complian that the commandline is to hard and treathen to go use Freedos instead. could be an experiment in human social behavior worht trying out if it did not earn me any infractions. :)

i am surprised to see this tread still active. nice post by the way.
Well, if my plea has worked, people will just ignore you or say "Bye."

If my plea hasn't worked, you'll get many prompt replies trying to help you install Java.

[SomeGuyDude]

Isn't that the old joke, though? If you want help on a Linux forum you say "Windows does X so much easier, why can't I do it in Linux?" and next thing you know you'll get a hundred replies?

[lovinglinux]

Today I received a new thread on my rss reader that was entitled "Ubuntu sucks! (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1127269)". Besides the fact that the thread includes some Ubuntu bashing, it isn't a testimonial. It is actually a social engineering thread, entitled this way just to maximize potentially useful replies. The OP actually wants to solve issues with video players.

The most interesting fact is that it received 430 page views and 46 replies in 3 hours. Another similar thread entitled "another can't play avi files post (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=684693)" posted in the same forum, received only 11 replies in 10 days until the OP solved the problem.

I could be wrong, but it seems to me that posts with titles that criticize Ubuntu or Linux, that threatens to go back to Windows has much more attention than similar threads with titles asking for plain support. I'm not complaining about the quality of support here, which is absolutely great. What I'm complaining is that we are feeding the trolls.

The OP deliberately chose the title to get more attention. Can we blame the OP?


to everyone who is angry at me for having such a harsh topic heading

please have a look at this link

http://bash.org/?152037

I just hope you guys dont stop replying now that I have told you why!

The link on the quote above suggests that someone should create a title bashing Linux to maximize the number of replies and potential solutions.


I'm sorry...i have posted this problem loads of times! and not often than not I havent had any replies to my threads and no solution to the problem

and the only way to catch the attention of the forum users is to have this heading for the topic

The OP has another thread entitled "[yet another] cant play any video file (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1126103)", which hasn't any replies since yesterday.

While I do agree that 24 hours is the minimum time the OP should wait to bump the thread, creating a new thread with a bashing title really got the attention of other users.

Someone suggested he didn't get any replies before because of his attitude, but that's exactly the opposite. Bad attitude seems to give more results.

In my personal opinion, threads like this should be closed an the OP should be advised to keep testimonials separated from support questions. Without closing the thread people will continue to feed the trolls and they could multiply like rabbits.

[Therion]

It's a cheap tactic and I wish it didn't work as well as it does. I can only say that, for my part, I absolutely refrain from offering assistance to people with poor attitudes, exaggerated senses of entitlement and those who provide only monosyllabic responses to pertinent questions.

I'm sure some will applaud the fact that I occasionally refrain from offering assistance... Period. I'm not sure that I can blame them.

In all seriousness though, I understand where you're coming from; I just also think you might, as a friendly piece of advice, want to think about choosing your battles.

[jenkinbr]

Would it be acceptable to report these posts with the line "poor topic title" in the 'reaon for reporting' box? I don't see why not...

[cariboo]

It has been reported and the title has been changed.

Jim

[bapoumba]

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=634322 :)

[Peasantoid]

Seems very true...what we need is a crackdown of epic proportions. ;)

[lovinglinux]

It has been reported and the title has been changed.

Jim

Thanks


http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=634322 :)

I didn't know this is an old issue. Thanks for the interesting link.

[bapoumba]

You're welcome. The issue is still valid, unfortunately.

[aysiu]

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=634322 :)
Yeah, I've merged it in.

Glad I'm not the only one annoyed by this phenomenon. If you're going to help, help everyone. If you can't help everyone, prioritize helping those who ask nicely.

[lovinglinux]

Yeah, I've merged it in.

Nice. Thanks.

[sadicote]

Exactly my point: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=7079688#post7079688

[Tamlynmac]

Seems logical this behavior should be addressed by the mods. Whenever, a thread is detected that reflects this behavior why can't the mods intervene? Closing the thread and advising the OP to post their questions in the appropriate section of the forum or moving it for them.

Presently, members argue over the philosophy of helping individuals that deliberately endeavor to circumvent the process. Should the mods intervene the action would be viewed as forum policy, instead of opinion. What image does the forum wish to convey to those that post in the assistance section and wait patiently for a response?

I've noticed recently this behavior is increasing and simply by titling a thread with threats of leaving or bashing Ubuntu, has become a form of instant gratification (assistance). Many have ascertained that by manipulating that section of the forum their expectations of instant assistance are often accommodated. IMHO with some of these threads entitlement plays a big role. Some are willing to subject themselves to flaming, armed with the knowledge (based on observation) that a member(s) will eventually step up and provide addition support. The ends justify the means.

Perhaps the forum council could address this and establish a policy that prevents this type of behavior from becoming mainstream. I don't comprehend the difference between those providing assistance to individuals in that section and those that deliberately post there expecting assistance. To me it simply reflects bad behavior by both groups.

Assistance should be provided in the support sections and not in the testimonials section. Why even bother having a separate section of the forum for testimonials, if it's simply used as an additional support section? Seems like a waste of valuable server space.

[inobe]

very nice thread, never noticed it before, didn't get a chance to read all of it, the few pages i read are good enough.


i rarely see hostility, mostly just mild comments.

[t0p]

I hate whiny whiners! (Not the OP, though he is clearly whining in this thread... ;) ) When I see someone post "Thats it goodbye ubunto," I might reply just to bid them farewell, or to point out that it isn't spelt ubunto, dammit!! but yeah, netiquette is deader'n dead.

Tell you what though, it's hardly surprising netiquette has disappeared when you consider how many posts of mine, just a polite question bumped once then released, have fallen away unanswered. So if you wanna help a deserving soul, click on my username and check out my unresolved questions! Or maybe I will go back to Windows, where everything just works!

:p

[toupeiro]

Been a long time since I've seen this thread.. And, I think my stance is still the same.

Call it punish, call it "not rewarding", call it what you will, this board is about the ubuntu community, good and bad. Someone may be a jerk, or maybe they simply rubbed you the wrong way, but by not answering their technical issue and learning to discard their attitude for the sake of something good coming out of the situation, I am hurting the community. I've been in threads where in the midst of disagreement and banter, I helped someone else completely out of the loop learn something relative to the topic at hand about Unix permissions. If I simply choose not to answer, what good does that do anybody?

"Then I looked on all the works that my hands had wrought, and on the labour that I had laboured to do: and, behold, all was vanity and vexation of spirit, and there was no profit under the sun."

[cmay]

Assistance should be provided in the support sections and not in the testimonials section. Why even bother having a separate section of the forum for testimonials, if it's simply used as an additional support section? Seems like a waste of valuable server space.
i think i once suggested that the first post would be locked so no one could post in after that. it would at least stop the usage this section as a support on the ropes forums.

you may have notived the "i am going back to minix " tread i posted in there . its a sort of catchy tittle with at least some extend of guarantie that someone will read the tread. i did not get any answers on my subject however :)

[23meg]

Call it punish, call it "not rewarding", call it what you will, this board is about the ubuntu community, good and bad. Someone may be a jerk, or maybe they simply rubbed you the wrong way, but by not answering their technical issue and learning to discard their attitude for the sake of something good coming out of the situation, I am hurting the community. I've been in threads where in the midst of disagreement and banter, I helped someone else completely out of the loop learn something relative to the topic at hand about Unix permissions. If I simply choose not to answer, what good does that do anybody?[/I]

This would have been agreeable if we had the luxury of ignoring the scale of the "bad behavior". It doesn't occur at the same rate it did three years ago, when I would have probably agreed with you.

[sadicote]

I am too much of a newbie to be commenting on what aught to be done in a forum of, people i consider to be my mentors, but the fact that i gather is, what is objectionable to the community, including myself, is, that a threat like "i am thinking of going back to Windows", elicits a more generous and immediate response than is normally available to the rest of us diehard Ubuntu sods.

[bp1509]

d

[Gizenshya]

I strongly disagree with the OP.

This is nothing more than another form of aggression.and does no good.

1. It lets people leave with a bad impression, and people who have bad experiences are generally about 1000% more likely to spread their frustrations than those who have positive experiences. This gives (IMO, undeserved) poor word of mouth.

2. It does not address the problem itself. The problem is not the attitude of the posters, it is the way they feel they were treated. "They answered other questions, but not mine? maybe because I'm new?" There root issue is not answering questions. This could be fixed several ways, but in the end, it can only be addressed, and never cured.

Whatever their train of thought, and regardless of its validity, they have a question, and if someone knows the answer, they should share. If they don't, they should attempt to point the person to where they may be able to find help.

Some things to think about...

If a Doctor does not like his patient's attitude, does he just ignore their problem and let them die? Of course not. They would lose their license and would probably never be able to practice again. and they would likely be sued as well.

If you call a company irritated at their service, does the representative hang up on you for being impolite? Of course not, they would lose their job.

There are many other examples, but they are consistent. The best (and only valid) way to address impolite/irate/unsatisfied people, is to address them just as if they were completely polite. Address them maturely, calmly, etc. It takes two to tango, people. To not address them, regardless of their state of mind or communication skills, is to help them do the damage that you claim you are attempting to help stop.

[sadicote]

Seems a bit of a 'hardsell' to me...there was this plea which went "..in order to help me smoothly migrate to Linux"--c'mon, do you really think that this person would not have backed up her/his data, did not have Windows alongside, and was not able to risk making a few mistakes? Why would you then take on the role of the 'good doctor' and try so desperately to persuade her/him to use 'your operating system'?

It is this slimy, sly trolling that we object to, newbs and adepts, alike.

[koenn]

If you call a company irritated at their service, does the representative hang up on you for being impolite? Of course not, they would lose their job.

OK, I resign.
Oh, wait - this isn't my job ....

[toupeiro]

This would have been agreeable if we had the luxury of ignoring the scale of the "bad behavior". It doesn't occur at the same rate it did three years ago, when I would have probably agreed with you.

The scale doesn't matter to me in this circumstance. You are not ever going to be able to change the way people react. You shouldn't even want to. The best intentions in human history have the worst outcomes by trying to make a decree out of the opinions of some and impose that across the board. The one thing you do have control over, and can change, is how you handle yourself in situations that have unpleasant characteristics. Just because people start doing something more now than three years ago will not sway my opinion in this circumstance. I still think the right thing to do as a peer in this community is solve the problem, and ignore the attitude. rather than try to be a parent. There are positions in forums for parenting, they are called moderators. If action is needed, I'll leave it in their capable hands.

[Tamlynmac]

Gizenshya
I strongly disagree with the OP.

This is nothing more than another form of aggression.and does no good.

1. It lets people leave with a bad impression, and people who have bad experiences are generally about 1000% more likely to spread their frustrations than those who have positive experiences. This gives (IMO, undeserved) poor word of mouth.

2. It does not address the problem itself. The problem is not the attitude of the posters, it is the way they feel they were treated. "They answered other questions, but not mine? maybe because I'm new?" There root issue is not answering questions. This could be fixed several ways, but in the end, it can only be addressed, and never cured.

Whatever their train of thought, and regardless of its validity, they have a question, and if someone knows the answer, they should share. If they don't, they should attempt to point the person to where they may be able to find help.

Some things to think about...

This again suggest a form of entitlement. When posting on the forum for assistance, one must remember that the individuals assisting are doing so for "FREE". If they know the answer, it's been my experience they gladly assist. By exhibiting bad behavior, it tends to isolate the individual and creates a hostile environment. It's also been my experience that many who do help in the support sections don't appreciate entitlement and all they ask for is a thank you or if nothing else a conformation their help proved advantageous.

The problem in my opinion is that some have found it beneficial to threaten the forum with leaving or make derogatory remarks in an effort to seek immediate assistance. This alone may suggest a pattern of entitlement. The forum is not a service support forum and no one gets paid to provide assistance here. By promoting bad behavior, the forum risks this becoming mainstream. Should one feel the need for entitlement, then I'd suggest they pay for support from Canonical.

The forum is a platform for members to communicate with other members. Should problems arise, the hope is another member may have already experienced it or has an in depth knowledge and can assist with the issue. Where is the entitlement in that scenario? What message does the forum wish to convey to those that don't show bad behavior patterns? Should an individual choose to leave the community (for whatever motive) permitting them to act in a questionable manner will not solve the problem either. When one acts or reacts in a negative manner or demeans something due to a lack of success on behalf or the installer/user, justifying their actions is a poor excuse and only perpetuates this behavior.

We must keep the assistance sections in perspective. They exist because community member spend their own personal time helping each other. Pointing fingers at them for non-performance is foolish and in my opinion potentially hazardous. I doubt many would agree that chastising individuals attempting to assist other members in the support sections for free - is a good idea. If anything we should remember to thank each other and note that the assistance came at no cost and with no strings attached.

Might I suggest, a re-evaluation of statements made and realize that unless one is willing to pay for support, lashing out at community members - really is not a good idea. Help at only the cost of a little respect and a few manners seems awfully cheap. Should all the members that endeavor to assist in those sections quit doing so for a period of time, what effect would that have?

Worrying about treatment of individuals that display bad behavior is counter productive and in my opinion not in the best interest of the forum. I personally would prefer individuals who exhibit these types of behavior patterns not join the community, as eventually they will spread their philosophy. This IMHO would truly be detrimental to the forum.

Again just my $0.02

[loell]

Put your money where your mouth is, as they say..

I find it interesting that those who "plea" to still help these "bad" individuals aren't actually helping anyway. ;)

[toupeiro]

Put your money where your mouth is, as they say..

I find it interesting that those who "plea" to still help these "bad" individuals aren't actually helping anyway. ;)

I find it interesting how you make a statement like this without any basis or structure to quantify "help"

[loell]

I find it interesting how you make a statement like this without any basis or structure to quantify "help"

that's because quoting posts, with an added comment,

"see, your posting more in the community cafe than in support forums. that's a testament that you are just talkative and not actually helpful"

is very distasteful.

[toupeiro]

that's because quoting posts, with an added comment,

"see, your posting more in the community cafe than in support forums. that's a testament that you are just talkative and not actually helpful"

is very distasteful.

Agreed, it's very distasteful. As well as is making blanket statements like you did without the burden of proof. One could say that's defamation of character, which is just as distasteful and as ludicrous as judging help by a post count. I know I've helped plenty in this section of the forum. I don't really give a damn if I get a post count credit or not for it, nor should anyone else.

[sadicote]

Relax, everybody, please! I take this opportunity to thank all fellow members for all the times they have saved me from a disaster, and wish to point out that a few trolls shouldn't cause us to be bickering amongst ourselves.;)

[loell]

As well as is making blanket statements like you did without the burden of proof.

I could also say,

the burden of proof isn't mine to bear at all. but of you and the likes of you who has the patience to deal with these individuals (both true or fad).

its true, post counts and thanks count are irrelevant. it has also been raised.

but has there been a change of heart when you so did help them?
were you even there? whenever there's a sensational (I'm leaving unless you help me) thread. if so, how was it? where is it? who were they? where are they now?

of course it's more likely that you won't dignify these specific questions with specific answers, because as you said you know you've helped plenty in this forum's section, but then.. perhaps if you show your approach, it might change those who agreed with the original post.

[cariboo]

I'm going to close this thread for a while and let everybody cool off for a bit.

I've reopened this thread

Jim

[Dale61]

Yeah, I've merged it in.

Glad I'm not the only one annoyed by this phenomenon. If you're going to help, help everyone. If you can't help everyone, prioritize helping those who ask nicely.

I sometimes help if I know the answer, but that doesn't mean I'm able to help everyone.

However, I do help those who I deem to have been polite, and more importantly, patient. I tend not to help someone who has posted asking for help, then 10 minutes later replied with 'What, nobody gunna help?'

Some people obviously think that everyone else is in the same time zone as they are.

[XubuRoxMySox]

I'm a newbie and completely delighted with the help I've received in the forums! I checked the documentation first, then did a search of the topic (wireless - apparently a very popular topic among us newbies), then tried a couple of the solutions without success before I even created an account here.

I read in another thread that ndishtk makes ndiswrapper so much easier to use. So I tried it and bingo, it worked great!

I've also had a lot of fun with my newbie questions when I find out how silly they sound to other people. Someone mentioned a program running as a daemon and my first thought was, "Omygod, my 'puter needs an exorcism!" I posted it, for two reasons:

1. Because I like to laugh at myself, and

2. Because I really would like you veterans to know that alot of us newbies don't know a daemon from a demon yet. The terminology is new to us, and maybe that's why we're so slow to catch on, or have trouble being specific enough with our questions.

So for those of you who like to help us newbies, first of all, THANK YOU for taking the time to do it; and secondly I'd like to offer a couple of suggestions:


Please use plain English when possible (and I know it prob'ly isn't possible all the time). It may be more fun to laugh at silly people like me though - and if we're nice, and sincere, we'll laugh right along with you (once we get the joke). If a newbie gets offended at a simple request for clarification, oh well! That's his problem. It ain't like he's paying for tech support. Besides, he has the option to pay for it from Canonical. Let him use that option if he can't even be polite to a volunteer!

Don't assume a newbie gets it when suggestions take the form of subtle "hints." You gotta spell it out for us sometimes - even what seems obvious to you is new and strange and scary to a newbie!

Choose words carefully. It's a support forum and us newbies tend to read your replies as though they were a printed troubleshooting guide. We'll follow step by step exactly what you told us, word for word. Because we're not used to actually thinking for ourselves yet. We'll catch on eventually.


Side note: I have Asperger's syndrome (sometimes called "high functioning" autism). I don't get "nonverbal cues" and social nuances. I rely almost entirely on words - and words with multiple meanings confuse the heck out of me! I can't be the only autistic boy in here who needs extreme clarity when it comes to "tech support."

Say, "Welcome to Ubuntu" alot. Make us feel like we've just been accepted into a really exclusive fraternity! We belong! Yaaaay! LOL, I know it's silly but a warm greeting goes a really long way with most people. Warm regards from friendly people will keep me coming back for more, and makes me want to grow up to be like you - someday I'll be one of those awesome people who help newbies make the most of their 'puters with Ubuntu!

Thanks for listening, and thanks for helping,
Robin
total Ubuntu fanboy

[OrangeCrate]

This is a plea, not a demand.

I've seen it happen a few times that someone will post a support thread and not get much help. Then, when she or he posts a complaining "I'm leaving. Ubuntu sucks. I'm going back to Windows" thread, suddenly ten or twenty people jump out of the woodwork and say, "Oh, no. Don't leave. Give Ubuntu a chance. We'll help you," and the person's problem is solved.

Uh, maybe you don't all realize this (you woodwork people, whoever you are), but you're rewarding bad behavior.

I would urge you to join me in deliberately not helping those who whine and make a big fuss to draw attention to their problems (this behavior I consider parasitic) and deliberately seek out the quiet patient folks, who are just waiting for their support threads to be paid attention to--the ones who do not create separate threads called "Why won't anyone answer my thread?" or "This community sucks"; the ones who wait and then bump their threads once after a day or two.

To those who threaten to return to Windows or decide that insulting the Ubuntu community is the best way to get help, I hope you do not get more encouragement for your behavior. If Windows works for you, great. Use Windows, then. If you want to give Ubuntu a chance, give it a real chance, and ask for help nicely... and I'm hoping the Ubuntu community here will listen to my plea and reward good forum behavior.

Well said then asiyu (2007), and even more important today.

Along the same lines...

Tightening up on the "I'm leaving/left Ubuntu" threads, I brought up the idea of suspending users, who have said they have left the forums, but continue to post, in this thread:

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1103961&highlight=orangecrate

Also, there used to be an option to block out forums, such as testimonials, from a new post search, but it has disappeared. It was nice to be able to tune out the whiners when browsing the forums. I brought it to the attention of staff, in this thread:

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1095169&highlight=orangecrate

Frankly, IMO, there has been a preponderance of adding whistles and bells over the past year or two, some of which work, most of which don't, rather that actively managing these fast growing forums.

Something for the staff to think about...

[Joeb454]

You can add users to an ignore list I believe.

I've never used it personally, but I'm sure the option is there under the UserCP if you want it.

Perhaps that may help you :)

[OrangeCrate]

You can add users to an ignore list I believe.

I've never used it personally, but I'm sure the option is there under the UserCP if you want it.

Perhaps that may help you :)

Too much work to keep adding users. It was much easier just to block an individual forum you had no interest in. For me, the "Ubuntu Testimonials & Experiences" forum was A#1 on the list of forums to block. It would be nice to have that option back, but apparently the request has fallen on deaf ears.

[forrestcupp]

I always thought it would be weird to use the user block feature. You could be in a thread where that user's comments affect the flow of the conversation, but you won't see the comments, so you don't have a clue about what's going on.

I'd prefer to just not read individual posts that I don't care about.

And about blocking subforums, how about just not clicking the link to it? I'm usually in the Cafe, so I don't ever even see the link to go to testimonials. But maybe you have little self control, and you can't keep yourself from going there. :)

[Irony]

I disagree.

If a person is frustrated with getting no answer and says something to the effect that the forum is rubbish or ubuntu is rubbish then fine, he's made no personal attacks and hasn't resorted to swearing.

If a bunch of people then come to his aid then this merely shows that people can help.

I've quite often posted questions with zero replies and have had to sort the problem myself - often taking quite a long time to do so... a beginner would not be able to sort the problem and would have no choice but to leave the distro.

Obviously if a person resorts to personal attacks and swearing then he should be banned without warning.

[Irony]

Now I mention it... I am actually posting from Debian 5 because the restricted driver for my X800 card didn't work in Ubuntu (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1097880)

I got no replies - so I went to Mepis then Debian 5 where the drivers do work.

[Irony]

And no reply here;

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1010067

which is why I tried the next version of ubuntu and then had to go Mepis then Debian 5.

[23meg]

I always thought it would be weird to use the user block feature. You could be in a thread where that user's comments affect the flow of the conversation, but you won't see the comments, so you don't have a clue about what's going on.

I'd prefer to just not read individual posts that I don't care about.


The ignore feature just collapses the ignored users' posts by default. You can still see them with a click if you feel the need to.

[aysiu]

I don't understand how people can disagree.

Do you have the time and energy to help everyone who asks for it? Do you, really? Why isn't your post count higher than mine? I've posted a lot of help to new users over the past few years and have never even come close to helping everyone who asks.

So if you don't help everyone, you have to be selective about when you help. All I'm saying is, if you're going to be selective, select the people who are asking for help nicely, because right now they are the ones being neglected, and the people threatening to leave or insulting Ubuntu or the community are the ones being helped.

In my mind, this is equivalent to someone killing your family and robbing your house, and then when you have the choice to donate your liver to either her or to your loving spouse, you choose the killer and thief. It's ridiculous!

If you don't have the resources to help everyone, you help the people who are asking nicely. Anything else is insanity. Of course, I can't force you to do this (that's why it's a plea, not a demand), but I don't see how anyone can disagree with this... not to mention that helping the people asking nicely is more likely to prevent the angry or hateful "askings" later.

Think about it as almost like the health care industry. If the health care industry is smart, it will reward and encourage preventative medicine - education about healthy living, early diagnoses of illnesses, regular check-ups, etc. If the health care industry is dumb, it'll wait until people have terminal illnesses and then try to treat them and end up spending more money and having more people unhealthy or dead.

If we wait until people threaten to leave before helping them, then we just encourage more people to threaten to leave... or just leave. If we proactively seek out people who are asking nicely for help the first time, they won't threaten to leave later.

Why is this so difficult for people to understand?

[forrestcupp]

I've quite often posted questions with zero replies and have had to sort the problem myself - often taking quite a long time to do so... a beginner would not be able to sort the problem and would have no choice but to leave the distro.


I've left Ubuntu a hundred times to go back to Windows. I've never posted a nasty thread about how I hate Ubuntu and it's rubbish, and everyone should give me one good reason to stay. I've never even felt the need to let anyone know that I've stopped using Ubuntu. That's immature, and children who throw temper tantrums shouldn't be catered to.

Another reason I haven't made any big posts about how I'm leaving Ubuntu is because every time I've done it, I knew that I would probably end up coming back.

[NightwishFan]

A lot of people who threaten to leave Ubuntu are just frustrated.

I do not cater to people who do not have at least some manners though. I say, perhaps help those right in front of you as best you can, and you will be able to help others fill in the rest.

[Irony]

Another reason I haven't made any big posts about how I'm leaving Ubuntu is because every time I've done it, I knew that I would probably end up coming back.

I can see what aysiu is saying and I agree that if a person makes personal attacks and swears he should be banned without warning.

But if a person makes a generalised statement that ubuntu is rubbish or the forum is rubbish then this indicates a sense of urgency to solving a problem. I think if the community takes offence at this then the community is frankly a bit prissy, fortunately I think it is more robust than this.

In my case I politely asked for help but received none so I left Ubuntu... that's how it works in reality.

[aysiu]

I can see what aysiu is saying and I agree that if a person makes personal attacks and swears he should be banned without warning. Actually, we're quite a bit more lenient than that, despite what some people have said about the staff here. We generally tend to give warnings first, infractions, more infractions, and then ban. Only spammed advertisements and some egregiously offensive behavior would result in an instant ban.


But if a person makes a generalised statement that ubuntu is rubbish or the forum is rubbish then this indicates a sense of urgency to solving a problem. I think if the community takes offence at this then the community is frankly a bit prissy, fortunately I think it is more robust than this. No, it creates no more urgency. In fact, my point is that it should create less urgency. People who ask for help politely should have more urgency.


In my case I politely asked for help but received none so I left Ubuntu... that's how it works in reality. And that's the reality I'm trying to change. Unfortunately, your issue probably is unanswered because the people who look to help out in the support areas don't know the answer to your problem, and the people who may know the answer to your problem are the worst offenders in terms of my plea (they will help only those who say Ubuntu sucks, threaten to leave, or insult the community directly).

[lovinglinux]

I can see what aysiu is saying and I agree that if a person makes personal attacks and swears he should be banned without warning.

But if a person makes a generalised statement that ubuntu is rubbish or the forum is rubbish then this indicates a sense of urgency to solving a problem. I think if the community takes offence at this then the community is frankly a bit prissy, fortunately I think it is more robust than this.

In my case I politely asked for help but received none so I left Ubuntu... that's how it works in reality.


Take a look at my post about this issue (http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=7084079&postcount=176). There are people using bashing titles on purpose, to get more attention and more replies.

[forrestcupp]

I can see what aysiu is saying and I agree that if a person makes personal attacks and swears he should be banned without warning.

But if a person makes a generalised statement that ubuntu is rubbish or the forum is rubbish then this indicates a sense of urgency to solving a problem. I think if the community takes offence at this then the community is frankly a bit prissy, fortunately I think it is more robust than this.

In my case I politely asked for help but received none so I left Ubuntu... that's how it works in reality.

Yeah, but when you left, did you do it quietly, or did you stir up a bunch of trouble? If you did it quietly, that is honorable.

There is something to remember about these forums that has been mentioned a lot in this thread. All the people here are just users volunteering their time trying to help people out so we can all improve our experiences together. No one is entitled to get any help at all, and no one is responsible to help anyone. We're all here voluntarily and without pay, even the moderators. The only tangible benefit anyone gets from helping is the chance that they might receive help sometime when they need it.

Since we're not professional tech support/developers and we're just users who have learned from our experiences, we don't always have all the answers. Also, there are so many thousands of people who use these forums that sometimes threads get lost very quickly, especially in the beginners section.

But I can assure you that I'm not likely to help someone that gets mad and says that we do a crappy job at helping. I don't give a rat's behind if you use Ubuntu or not, so I'm not going to put any effort into saving anyone.

[aysiu]

I've moved some off-topic posts to their own thread. (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1132332)

[Kareeser]

Sounds like this thread got redditted, and someone's already tried baiting Ubuntu users into giving him help... damn.

[Irony]

If you did it quietly, that is honorable...

But I can assure you that I'm not likely to help someone that gets mad and says that we do a crappy job at helping.

Honorable or stupid? In my case I didn't make a fuss, the result being I had to leave.

There has to be a way of indicating urgency or how else do respondents decide which they should answer? Urgency is best indicated by the language used.

Again I agree that if a person is being rude he should be banned but to ignore someone for ramping up the urgency and instead helping those who are quiet is all backwards.

[aysiu]

There has to be a way of indicating urgency or how else do respondents decide which they should answer? Urgency is best indicated by the language used. Well, the real problem here is that some users here are more knowledgeable than others. I looked at your thread and have no idea how to solve your problem. I am not an advanced Ubuntu or Linux user, though.

The real problem is that a lot of advanced and knowledgeable users are either too busy to help anyone at all... or spend a lot of time looking at threads titles like "Ubuntu sucks" or "This is why I'm going back to Windows" and less time looking at threads like "Can someone help me with my wireless connection?" and "What do I do about a kernel panic?"

My plea is to these advanced users. If you know how to solve complex problems and want to help people, help the people who are asking nicely. Yes, you, advanced user. If your time is limited, use it on the people who are asking nicely. If you have to neglect anyone, neglect the person who is threatening to leave or the one who says the Ubuntu community sucks.

[koenn]

Honorable or stupid? In my case I didn't make a fuss, the result being I had to leave.

There has to be a way of indicating urgency or how else do respondents decide which they should answer? Urgency is best indicated by the language used.

Again I agree that if a person is being rude he should be banned but to ignore someone for ramping up the urgency and instead helping those who are quiet is all backwards.
There is no urgency here.
No one on this forum is obliged to offer any help whatsoever.
People help voluntarily, and go by their own criteria to select the requests they take how often they want to check for new requests, etc.

Me, I usually take 2 kinds of support requests : the ones where the thread title suggests I can have the case solved in 3 replies or less, and the ones where the thread title suggests it might be interesting to figure out how to go about whatever the OP's issue is.

If you expect Service Level Agreements, contact Canonical or a local Linux integrator for a support contract.

[Irony]

People help voluntarily, and go by their own criteria to select the requests they take how often they want to check for new requests, etc.

Yes and one of those criteria is an indication of the urgency of a request... as another poster indicated it obviously is the criteria upon which a lot of respondents go by based on the number of reponses they will allocate to such requests.

In principle I agree with aysiu in that boorish or childish requests should not be responded to... I suppose repeated bumps would be the most 'polite' way of indicating urgency, though that has been said to be unacceptable so that doesn't leave much option on indicating urgency.

However, I can't say I have a particular answer on a way of indicating the importance of a question.

[aysiu]

I suppose repeated bumps would be the most 'polite' way of indicating urgency, though that has been said to be unacceptable so that doesn't leave much option on indicating urgency. It's okay to bump your thread once every 24 hours a few times.

It's the bumping every few minutes or every hour that is annoying.

[vedek]

i understand where aysiu is coming from, leaving ubuntu just cos you don't get help straight away is plain crazy, but i also speak from not having my questions answered it can be so frustrating especially when you are new, but i installed linux so i could expand my computer skills so i try to figure out my own problems myself which is fine i have a bit of experience with linux not massive but i can follow instructions and figure out problems if i have any. but its the fact that if you are a brand spanking new uer and something doesn't work then its ask a question and if no one replys then it goodbye from me, so i can see both sides of the argument because i have been there.

My personal view is if you aren't willing to even search google or the forums for the answer and just say its crap and i am leaving in which case i wish them all the best and don't let the door hit you on the way out.

[aysiu]

i understand where aysiu is coming from, leaving ubuntu just cos you don't get help straight away is plain crazy, but i also speak from not having my questions answered it can be so frustrating especially when you are new, but i installed linux so i could expand my computer skills so i try to figure out my own problems myself which is fine i have a bit of experience with linux not massive but i can follow instructions and figure out problems if i have any. but its the fact that if you are a brand spanking new uer and something doesn't work then its ask a question and if no one replys then it goodbye from me, so i can see both sides of the argument because i have been there. I think you misunderstand what I'm saying here.

I have no problem with new users being frustrated.

My problem is with experienced users not helping new users who ask for help nicely, and then going out of their way to help new users who threaten to leave or who bash Ubuntu or Linux.

So if you are a frustrated new user who posts a support thread asking nicely for help and get no help for days, and then you post a thread saying "Ubuntu sucks--I'm going back to Windows" and you get tons of help immediately, what lesson have you learned? [Ask nicely, get no help. Whine and throw a hissy fit, get lots of help]

Well, that's how it is now.

Let's imagine a world that's different.

You are a frustrated new user who posts a support thread asking nicely for help and get tons of help immediately. What lesson have you then learned? [Ask nicely, get lots of help]

I'm espousing the second scenario. I want frustrated new users to get help right away when they ask nicely. I don't want new users who ask nicely to get no help and users who threaten to leave or who bash Ubuntu to get more help and more quickly.

[vedek]

ah here comes the lightbulb.

Now i get you.

see its a noble goal. i will certainly help if i know the answer, the thing is i have asked a simple partitioning question that experienced people will know the answer to but my question is not answered yet others are, now i wont threaten to leave ubuntu firstly cos i like the OS simple as that secondly by the time someone has provided me with an answer i will have figured it out by myself so this is a problem and part of the solution, if i can be bothered to look for the answer,the question i think is important why cant they they know how to use google and the ubuntu search bar wont bite them, how do we give users the desire to look for the answer without running for the hill.

if people cant be bothered to search for a fix how did people survive windows?

[XubuRoxMySox]

Just about every time I log into this forum, I visit "General Help" and "Absolute Beginners" and a few other sub-forums to help newbies. But here's my issue:

I have had an almost completely trouble-free experience with Ubuntu, so I have very little experience in fixing things. Nothing was broken! Oh, I experimented, bending, twisting, and mutilating Ubuntu to see what it does. But I still never really managed to break anything that required more than a few minutes of Googling to fix. Except once... I forget what I did but I ended up reinstalling, which was effortless, and bingo. Fixed.

I try to help newbies, but as long as everything is going so well for me, I might not have much to offer for awhile!

Not that I'm complaining!

-Robin

[aysiu]

Here is a prime example of what I'm talking about.

bostonjoe311 (http://ubuntuforums.org/member.php?u=866783) joined the forums on 1 July, 2009.

He posted one thread asking for help on July 1. Zero responses.

He then posted another thread asking for help last week. Also zero responses.

Yesterday, he posts a thread entitled Linux is sever[e]ly lacking and gets two responses within the hour.

bostonjoe's explanation:
Hey, Catkiller, thanks for the quick reply. By the way, the thread title was just bait. and
I don't think I'm a troll. I have legitimate questions that I need help with, which I have posted once before but passed without reply. This is exactly the problem.

A new user asks for help and gets no help.

Posts a flame-baiting subject heading and gets help right away.

This is the problem. If a user asks for help, help the user. If the user posts flame-bait, ignore the user. It's not supposed to be the other way around.

And the problem isn't "I didn't know the answer, so I didn't reply." Someone knew the answer, of course... but simply would not answer or help until a flame-bait thread title appeared. If no one knew the answer, there wouldn't be any help in the flame-baiting thread either.

[bodyharvester]

i remember someone posting a title about ubuntu sucking and going back to windows because he had three small (he called em big) problems, i told him to post seperate threads for each problem and that they werent really big problems at all, didnt answer his questions though, somebody else did i think.

at the time i thought i was maybe being a little harsh by telling him to stop complaining and to post for each problem but this thread is quite informative, and made me feel better about my actions

thanks :)

[Frak]

Well, Aysiu, until somebody gives the lead to close obvious trolling threads, there's nothing in place to reprimand people for feeding the troll. I could go answer a trolls question, and I would never recieve any negative impact from it.

[aysiu]

Well, Aysiu, until somebody gives the lead to close obvious trolling threads, there's nothing in place to reprimand people for feeding the troll. I could go answer a trolls question, and I would never recieve any negative impact from it.
Well, I'd really like it to not come to that, as this is a plea and not a demand.

More importantly, that isn't directly the issue. In the case of bostonjoe, the troll thread shouldn't have even existed in the first place. If the people who did help in the troll thread had just helped him last week or a month ago, there wouldn't be a troll thread.

The troll thread is just a natural outgrowth of new user frustration with not getting proper help when they ask for it nicely.

[running_rabbit07]

I totally agree with you. People that start a thread saying they are going to leave would be better suited if nobody at all responded. I have had a couple threads where nobody helped me and I later posted my own fix.

With Bostonjoe's issue. He should have started a thread in the cafe about "which music player is the most versatile," a little bait to start a debate is the best way to get opinions of all the music players that are popular.

When I first came to UF I had seen one of those "I'm Leaving,' threads as was wondering why so many people were answering with goodbye, but then after being around for a little while I realized that there are a lot of guys who are constantly helping those with real problems such as wireless connectivity and grub issues. I feel the same way if someone starts a rant, give it back to them instead of kissing their rear.

There was a fellow yesterday that started this thread (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1245656) and I had no clue what his deal was and still don't. The guy scolded me because I didn't give him the perfect answer to a question nobody could answer without being a mind reader. It killed me to have to do all the backspacing when I was done with my response that I was typing, yet I did it anyway. I try to stay professional when helping people and leave my political/debating/offending to the proper threads. I understand that part of the OP in the thread doesn't speak good enough English to ask the question properly, which is the reason I played nice in my response.

A lot of the people that have problems that cause them to flip out when not helped right away are the same ones that didn't spend much, if any, time googling their issue.

[Dale61]

This is the problem. If a user asks for help, help the user. If the user posts flame-bait, ignore the user. It's not supposed to be the other way around.

Can you blame someone for having to wait SEVEN weeks without a reply? Surely, someone (a mod, maybe) can help before they get frustrated with the perceived lack of support.

Then again, there are those users who know how to use the search facility. and are prepared to actually read most (or at least some) of the results to see if there problem is addressed.

In this day and age of gimme, gimme, gimme, and I want it NOW! attitudes, what more can be done?

[chucky chuckaluck]

frustrated, confused people don't always act the way we would like them to. it is more in keeping with the real use of the word 'ubuntu' to help them than to refuse them.

[running_rabbit07]

Can you blame someone for having to wait SEVEN weeks without a reply? Surely, someone (a mod, maybe) can help before they get frustrated with the perceived lack of support.

Then again, there are those users who know how to use the search facility. and are prepared to actually read most (or at least some) of the results to see if there problem is addressed.

In this day and age of gimme, gimme, gimme, and I want it NOW! attitudes, what more can be done?

If I see a post that looks like they could have easily found a google fix, I just do a search then give them a link to the results page.

[aysiu]

Can you blame someone for having to wait SEVEN weeks without a reply? Surely, someone (a mod, maybe) can help before they get frustrated with the perceived lack of support.

Then again, there are those users who know how to use the search facility. and are prepared to actually read most (or at least some) of the results to see if there problem is addressed.

In this day and age of gimme, gimme, gimme, and I want it NOW! attitudes, what more can be done?
Why don't you re-read my post?

I'm not blaming bostonjoe at all. I'm blaming the folks who didn't answer bostonjoe's support threads but did answer his flame-bait thread.

[lisati]

It was the squirrels.

[Dale61]

Why don't you re-read my post?

I'm not blaming bostonjoe at all. I'm blaming the folks who didn't answer bostonjoe's support threads but did answer his flame-bait thread.

He would never had a reason to post a flame thread if someone, anyone, had answered him in the first place!

However, I do agree that those who answer in a flame thread are more of a problem than a cure, but what can be done? Most of the flame answerers(?) just want the attention as usually, their technical know-how is at a low level and can't help towards the initial problem.

[aysiu]

He would never had a reason to post a flame thread if someone, anyone, had answered him in the first place! Yes, that was my point!

I was saying "Hey, folks who answered him in the flame-bait post--why didn't you answer him in the support post?"


However, I do agree that those who answer in a flame thread are more of a problem than a cure, but what can be done? Most of the flame answerers(?) just want the attention as usually, their technical know-how is at a low level and can't help towards the initial problem. I disagree. Oftentimes, their technical know-how is at an intermediate to high level. Believe me, if I knew how to answer those questions, I'd answer them myself (and I do when I can).

This is what frustrates me.

New user has a problem with a medium difficulty level.
New user posts a support thread asking for help.
Most users ignore the thread because it isn't easy to answer.
The knowledgeable users also ignore it, because they pay attention to only the flamebait threads.
New user feels ignored and frustrated.
New user posts a flamebait thread.
The knowledgeable users try to help the new user in the flamebait thread.

The whole thing could have been avoided if the knowledgeable users had just helped the new user in the first thread. And it would have sent the message "Ask for help, and you'll get it right away" and not "Post flamebait, and you'll get help right away."

[Frak]

From what I understand, people tend to answer more when the motive is passionate about the application. For example, somebody asks about a broken sound system that has to deal with a missing interface. Nobody answers the thread until the owner comes up with "Linux sucks, you are all horrible and dumb". Readers become passionate about protecting what they find to be better and actively engage in showing that "No, it's not flawed, there was just a minor issue" and protect what they find golden.

The only way to stop such an attitude is to put, no, push, a point accross that answering these flame-bait topics that leave you oh-so-passionate will result in something worse than what you intended for. The rewards for answering a difficult topic need to be greater than answering a flame-bait topic. As it stands, the reward for answering a flame-bait topic is emotionally greater than answering a difficult question that may take days and only yield a "Hey, thanks". There's some kind of invisible "Hey, I have proven my domain" sort-of thing from answering flame-bait topics.

My 2 cents.

[RabbitWho]

When you spend 15 hours (and counting) working on something, and you know Windows works out of the box, it's very tempting to just give up and go with something you hate, just so your heart can stop palpitating.
(I went to bed last night at 5 in the morning with a Grub Error 17 (since solved, thank you community! I forget who posted the solution, it was an old thread) praying i'd wake up the next day and it would all be a dream. )

Every problem I've run into that there are answers to in the archive.. so far I've managed to solve, and i'm very grateful to this community and I think you're a great bunch and very helpful and expert and nice and more mature than people on message boards usually are.

But my god *bangs head against wall* why can't one little thing be easy. Just one little thing. I've been brought to the point of tears several times, and then i solve one problem and I'm delighted huzzah huzzah I say and then I run into another problem. And the things I wanted to do are all very simple. All two things: Install kubuntu. Go on Internet.
That's all.

I don't even understand half of the explanations, and when I find out what they mean it turns out they don't work for my computer or packages aren't there any more etc. etc.

I can understand why people get so frustrated and give up. I mean vista is right there waiting for me, easy peasy. I'll never even have to think. But I really really love kubuntu


I don't think it's bad behavior i think people are genuinely about to crack up. I think everyone reacts to trauma in different ways.
I don't think people are "rewarding bad behavior" I think they're reacting to desperation.

[aysiu]

I don't think it's bad behavior i think people are genuinely about to crack up. I think everyone reacts to trauma in different ways.
I don't think people are "rewarding bad behavior" I think they're reacting to desperation. So why wait until desperation?

React a little sooner. That's all I'm saying.

[RabbitWho]

So why wait until desperation?

React a little sooner. That's all I'm saying.


That's true that's true. Maybe it's just that the upset threads get bumped by so many people who can't actually fix the problem that the people who can fix it are bound to see it. If you wait quietly your question drops off the first page in a few hours.