Starcraft and Broodwar Linux Port Survey

[hammett111]

Recently we have "re"begun work on a linux port of starcraft that unfortuantely needs the W$dows version to be installed.

Our problem is market. :razz:

We need to know if this project will be viable by posting on linux email user lists and getting a feel for the potential. So the questions:

1. Would you like to see a linux port of Starcraft and Broodwar?

2. Would you pay for them?

3. How much would you pay?

Thank you for your time K/Ubuntu users.

[MetalMusicAddict]

For a native linux version, that worked as well as the windows based one, I'de pay the same price no matter the platform.

[Mishura]

If there is a serious port going on, I will pay for a copy of both Starcraft and Brood War IF:

- It is as stable as the Windows client.
- Fully compatible multiplayer with both Windows and MacOS versions. Full Battle.Net support.
- Supports every feature of the Windows client. Reason why I mention this, is take a look at Neverwinter Nights. It's missing a lot.. movie support, no map editor, etc..
- Map editor would be nice, but I won't use it myself.
- Easily obtainable. If its a downloadable Linux installer for the Windows CDs, this will be the best way. Another way would be to reissue the Windows boxes with a Linux installer inside of them. I can't go and "buy" it online, due to lack of credit card, and lack of trust of online stores.

Do this, and I will go out and buy Starcraft and its expansion as soon as I got the money to spend. *Waves wad of $20's* This I promise.

While I'm at it:

- I want Linux Diablo II!!!!!! <-- :)
- ..maybe Warcraft III as well ;)

PS: I know this sounds a bit demanding, but I'm just tired of half-done Linux ports. I want a complete game, or I'll just continue emulating it. Would you pay for a game that half of its stuff doesn't work for you? I thought not.

[hammett111]

Thanks for the replies so far, one of us will be monitoring the forums to look at the feedback.

Depending on the demand and takeup of the Starcraft ports we will move on to Blizzards other titles.

I understand peoples concerns to do with multiplayer'bility, WINE and other emulators, in my opionion do no justice for Linux. Until we get games companies firmly establishing their titles for Linux along with the OTHER two major OS's then Linux will never compete with them. Linux ports must mean that a TRULY Linux port, in this instance I'm afraid we can only build a linux installer from the windows CD as obtaining the source code has been extremely difficult.

Thank you once again

[Knyven]

What is this Starcraft Linux port all about?

i have cedega and my starcraft works fine, i even play on battle net.

[MetalMusicAddict]

What is this Starcraft Linux port all about?

i have cedega and my starcraft works fine, i even play on battle net.
Did you read the post above yours? "Native"

[xaque]

I'd buy it, even though I already own Windows versions of those games. A "Battle Chest" type deal for $20 would be awesome. Same goes for Diablo/Diablo II.

[hammett111]

Thank you for the replies. Keep them coming.

You will be able to visit our site soon www.al-cunta.com, give us a few weeks we are all a little busy with exams and the Tri-nations (for you rugby fans). Here and in the forums we will update you on our progress. So far we have no official release date, but again, this will be posted on the forums we are monitoring and website.

Sithaer forget to mention that when you post your response for price, include the currency type, i.e. USD, NZD and GOD forbid Rubles :grin:


Kompilation King

[npaladin2000]

Mmm...Starcraft....Broodwar....Gimmee. :) One of the few RTS games I like.

I already own the Windows versions, but I'll take a pure Linux port. There's a few other games I'd like to see ported too, but they're not Blizzard (I heard someone's working on Jagged Alliance 2).

[Hairy_Palms]

native linux games make me skip like a girl :)

[Poldi]

Blizzards games are among those that work really, really fine in 'emulation'. the Diablo and Star-/Warcraft series work in both Wine, CedegaCVS and Cedega - apart from Diablo 1 and the general Wine-mounting problems even with their own original installers.

and I do not see what I am loosing compared to a 'native' version.

what are you trying to achieve? for a player?

if we have to descuss native vs. Cedega games I think _any other_ game but Blizzards would be better targets for a port.

just my 2ct.

kind regards,
Carsten

[Mishura]

Blizzards games are among those that work really, really fine in 'emulation'. the Diablo and Star-/Warcraft series work in both Wine, CedegaCVS and Cedega - apart from Diablo 1 and the general Wine-mounting problems even with their own original installers.

and I do not see what I am loosing compared to a 'native' version.

what are you trying to achieve? for a player?

if we have to descuss native vs. Cedega games I think _any other_ game but Blizzards would be better targets for a port.

just my 2ct.

kind regards,
Carsten

True, a game that doesn't work at all with emulation would be a viable target for a port. But lets face it, we're kinda strapped for any kind of native games. I can count roughly 20, and half of them are open source. (I'm talking commercial games).

Yes, I can play Starcraft almost perfectly with Cedega. But its not the same. Not to mention, something like a patch here, or a different Wine/Cedega version can break a game (I hear WoW does this on occasion.)

Starcraft is an old game for a port, but I'll still get it again for the Linux version, in hopes of future Blizzard titles ported as well. A WoW client would convince me to try out the game, but since I'm no big MMORPG'er I've pretty much let that game pass for now.

Starcraft is a fun game, and I have fond memories playing it on Battle.net YEARS ago, before I even touched Linux. A Linux port would revitalize my interest in it again, and I would put down the cash for it as well. Other Linux user starcraft fans should do the same. Otherwise, we'll never break this cycle, and GNU/Linux will never be taken seriously on the Desktop.

Just my thoughts.

[Kemotaha]

I would probably apy $20 or so because I already I have paid for it 2x (I lost my first set somewhere. I think a friend took them and never returned them).

This is of course it runs on 64 bit with me having to do a 32bit chroot environment. I am running complete 64 because I can.

I am excited to see the port. I think WOW will have a linux client soon. Hopefully with the next patch. I can't wait to run that natively in Linux.

[Hairy_Palms]

ive been playing warcraft 3 since its release, ive never played starcraft though, ive passed up WoW because it isnt native and to get it to run emulated when i barely meet the non-emulation minmum specs is a bit hopeful, so native starcraft id buy coz ive never been dissapointed by a blizzard game if wow gets a native linux client i might just buy that too :)

[Spif]

I'm very interested. If it works just as well as the Windows version, I'll happily pay whatever your charge for it.

[slux]

What exactly are we talking about here? A real port of the actual Starcraft source code boxed and sold like LGP does for other games or a FreeCNC/Wargus/Exult style affair where you build a new game engine that uses the Starcraft resources?

I'm guessing the latter since Blizzard isn't known to be very Linux-friendly... If that's the case I think I probably would not contribute financially although I'd be interested in the effort. A game from scratch with completely free (GPL or so) data and code would be another matter entirely.

[hammett111]

The project has begun on coding an installer to use the W$ows version to install Starcraft and broodwar onto linux, we are looking at many possibilities to ensure updates and patching go smoothly, but as they say, "its a long way to the top" and we have only begun to place a boot on the mountain.

We would dearly love to get our hands on the source code through a licensing deal and create a "true" linux port of Starcraft and broodwar, and sell this as a boxed product, both games in one, with linux documentation, online, support and a BNET/linux starcraft forum. Similar to what is available for the W$ows version.

Keep the responses coming, and we shall update you all on the projects progress.

Carla

[seethru]

I think WOW will have a linux client soon.

Where did you hear that?

I would love to see a SC/BW native linux client, however, I'd much rather see newer games first.

[Kemotaha]

Where did you hear that?

I would love to see a SC/BW native linux client, however, I'd much rather see newer games first.
It was talked about here: http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=32736&page=2&pp=10&highlight=warcraft

I know that it was just mentioning that it included isLinuxClient in the source code but that does mean that they are aware of it. I am sure that it is on their list to do. They have seen the success the UT franschise has had and ID and BIOWARE. I wouldn't be suprised if you didn't see one by summer next year.

But I have not heard anything official yet. I am dual booting b/c I use TeamSpeak but have jsut got a soundcard that should allow me to play in linux with TeamSpeak as well.

[Ubunted]

For a native linux version, that worked as well as the windows based one, I'de pay the same price no matter the platform.

Ditto.

And I don't even play games anymore. But Starcraft on Linux... whoo-ee, me like!

[garretg]

This is a very good Idea. I'd be willing to buy a linux port of starcraft so long its a complete experience. meaning i can do the single player with videos and the multiplayer.

I believe a milestone game like starcraft can encourage game developers to produce more games in linux.

[hammett111]

Yes we agree hence why we have begun with this game. Eventually we will move to others.

[Lord Illidan]

Starcraft on Linux? Wow, I'll take that... 30$, and more...
I think it is a great idea. Emulation is not my idea of playing a game, native is better.
Also, I think it should be either a downloadable installer which we can download freely and use with our windows cd or else cds released "Starcraft for Linux"...

[slux]

Heh, I have serious doubts about this project getting a box with a real Linux port out. (feel free to prove me wrong though)

If Starcraft porting licenses came cheap and were obtainable at all, LGP would've probably picked the game up a long time ago already. I'd start with a smaller title that would be easy to pick up instead of a legendary AAA game if I were you. There's probably many smaller quality RTS games to be played.


The project has begun on coding an installer to use the W$ows version to install Starcraft and broodwar onto linux, we are looking at many possibilities to ensure updates and patching go smoothly, but as they say, "its a long way to the top" and we have only begun to place a boot on the mountain.


Do you mean you are starting out with something like what the LIFLG (http://liflg.org/) folks have currently for many other games? Just an installer for the Windows binaries to be executed with WINE?

[Poldi]

again my question:

what is a Starcraft player expected to gain over what you call an 'emulation', namely Wine / Cedega?

if there was anything to be gained, be it Cedega-unsupported resolutions, be it missing 3d-suuport or reducing any emulation-introduced high system requirements I would understand this euphoria somewhat.

but I know Starcraft in Windows and Linux. using any of Wine/CedegaCVS/Cedega4.3.1 makes this work exactly like I know the game from playing in Windows.

I can install via a double-click on "Setup.exe". the installer looks and behaves like in Windows. If I changed my gnome-volume-manager prefs (I didn't) it would even autostart from the inserted CD. the serial registration works as does the CD-detection / copy protection.

inside the game: videos play, sound plays. I can type german umlauts in Starcraft entryboxes (something I ironically couldn't when playing in Windows) and I managed to play the first 10+ missions and some scenarios without problems (ok - without _technical_ problems. damned Zerg!). I am not aware of any 3d-features I might have missed and all the options seemed to work like in Windows. starttime is better than I remembered due to newer hardware / better filesystem. for the fun of it I installed on an old thinkpad and could play on a P2-300/128 MByte - no fun, but that was because of Gnome-overhead. playing with a lighter windowmanager is quite possible for this configuration.

all this worked without any fiddling in config-files using default installs of Cedega 4.3.1 (without P2P) or a Wine (with all winetools-System-DLLs loaded, though).

I admit I did not play online, but I know from experience that the Diablo 2 BattleNet funtionality is completely funtional with Cedega including online-update.

again, I understand that native is better than emulation in terms on political correctness and technical coolness - but thats only important to us geeks - what is the typical gamer getting out of this?

for me Cedega is just another set of libraries like DirectX under Windows. xine-lib enables me to decode media streams, sane-lib enable me to use scanner. wine-lib enables me to execute another set of software (like a JDK or a python-runtime). thats simplified, right. but from a users perspective - why should I care?

we can argue about Cedega cost/license/behavior. we can argue about games crashing or incompletely emulated. we can talk about OpenGL vs. Direct3D, but talk about making especially Blizzards games work better in Linux seems pretty fruitless to me.

another point: if you are coding a Starcraft engine that tops the features of original Starcraft then by all means: go for it. something like Exult for Ultima 7 where the point is not to be able to play in Linux like in DOS 10 years ago but to play the game better on many platforms that the original game ever did. such an undertaking would be valuable and welcome but I would not see or advertise it as a Linux port but as an engine/game upgrade (think StarCraft++).

still Starcraft might again not be the number one candidate for this as Stratagus is already succeeding in providing a complete new engine for Warcraft 2 and not far from beeing able to play Starcraft as well.

sorry, I don't think we need a third way to play Starcraft in Linux...

kind regards,
Carsten

[gil-galad]

So you don't have the source code?
How are you porting it?
Do you have the permission of Blizzard?

[hammett111]

The details we are not permitted to release, all I can say is we have "guided permission" so far....and I have been here enough to know some games developers pull the rug out from under you not long after, so continue to cross those fingers.

I am afraid that any port will be a "costed" one, hence the asking you to reply if you would pay, and how much. We will begin a more "official" poll for voting when our website is up and running, plus voting on other games to be ported, turn around time, etc.

Please do not worry about functionality, we WILL NOT release any games that are not 100% (or close to it...we all know the dangers of porting) compatible with their lesser cousins from other operating systems. Updating will be a breeze and automatic (with user permission of course). This is our optimism speaking so feel free to be skeptical.

We aim to port every major title to Linux, that is our goal, with complete functionality. As much as I admire emulation and APIs such as WINEX and CEDEGA, I feel they will kill linux as a gaming platform in the future. Ask yourself, if you're a games developer and you know that a wind$ws or mac version can be run in linux via an API or emulator would you bother to apply the resources for a linux port??

Sorry about the speal, but you must also ask yourself, what the majority of people use their computers for? Games, games and more games. I'm at work now and all I can do is play games......(shouldnt say that too much). If Linux whats to compete, we need native games. WE intend to deliver this if we have to plug ourselves into every gaming company in the world and twist their noses till they bleed.

Keep the responses coming we need healthy debates like this to prod us in the right direction.
Carla

[gil-galad]

Thanks for the reply.

It sounds like you are trying to be the next Loki. Despite my skepticism, I am very excited about this. I agree that wine/cedega are no substitute. I would love to have Warcraft III for linux. :)

[TristanMike]

Ok, maybe I missed something....you're curious if I would like to see a Linux port of Starcraft/Broodwar? The answer is simple, yes of course. Now question 2 and 3, you are curious if and how much I would pay for a game I already went out and legaly purchased? Well, the answer is simple, nothing. Ta hell with that! I've already bought the game, so as far as I'm concerned, I should be able to play it on any OS I choose. If a Linux port comes out a little late, then it's a little late, but I'm not paying one red cent for it. I will steal it before I do that.

Now, if you meant how much would I pay in the stores if I didn't own the game already, well, a nice battle chest runs at about 30 bucks (CAD) so I'd pay about 35 bucks (CAD) assuming that this "version" will be a "build" on the already existing product or provide means to install it on the originally intended OS('s). If it just for Linux, probably much less than 30 bucks (CAD) but then of course, I'd expect to pay much less for the other OS('s) version too. I am not going to buy mulitple copies of the same game just because I run two different OS's.

[slux]

Ok, maybe I missed something....you're curious if I would like to see a Linux port of Starcraft/Broodwar? The answer is simple, yes of course. Now question 2 and 3, you are curious if and how much I would pay for a game I already went out and legaly purchased? Well, the answer is simple, nothing. Ta hell with that! I've already bought the game, so as far as I'm concerned, I should be able to play it on any OS I choose. If a Linux port comes out a little late, then it's a little late, but I'm not paying one red cent for it. I will steal it before I do that.


Well, it's somewhat understandable and a very good reason for a Starcraft port making no sense. Only the people most enthusiastic about native ports will buy it as most everyone has very likely already played it and they can use Wine to play it well.

Do remember though that the port doesn't have much to do with the Windows version you Bought from Blizzard. The porting entity needs to pay Blizzard to be able to port it and has to pay for the work of making the port. They've never seen any of the money you shelled out for the Windows version. The attitude that you have the right to the port for free is one reason the Linux gaming situation is as bad as it is.

[TristanMike]

Well, it's somewhat understandable and a very good reason for a Starcraft port making no sense. Only the people most enthusiastic about native ports will buy it as most everyone has very likely already played it and they can use Wine to play it well.

Do remember though that the port doesn't have much to do with the Windows version you Bought from Blizzard. The porting entity needs to pay Blizzard to be able to port it and has to pay for the work of making the port. They've never seen any of the money you shelled out for the Windows version. The attitude that you have the right to the port for free is one reason the Linux gaming situation is as bad as it is.Thank you very much, :) this is a very good response to me. I appreciate the knowledge without making me feel stupid. I am definiately not aware of the, shall we say "politics", involved in porting as I am still very new to the Linux world and I wasn't aware that they have to "pay" Blizzard to port. Perhaps I was a tad bit rash with my comments. How does this work? Do they pay royalties with each sold copy or just a flat fee? I just figured that if Blizzard says it's ok, then they own rights to the ported version and will release a "patch" or something else on the website for those who have all ready purchased a legitimate, registered copy of the game and have a serial.

This opens my eyes a little. Knowing this, I probably would pay a small fee. Like I said in my above post, if it were available with the original copy, I would pay more for the original copy if it included both installers, but I can't afford to re-buy games just for one OS, not at the same cost, I'm uber-poor and I just bought my battle chest for Starcraft not even a year ago. That's just crazy, I mean, like I said, I am very ignorant to Linux, but I am UBER-INTERESTED in it. I LOVE Ubuntu and this world, I don't ever want to go back. Not to undermine the work these great people do, but how much work actually goes into porting a game? Do they have to redraw all of the worlds and creatures and stuff?

You see the other problem too is method of payment. I don't have, nor do I want a Credit Card, so that's out of the question. I try my very best not to deal at all with banks, in my personal life, so a cheque/paypal is kinda out of the question. I like cash, easy, fast, little to no hassles(except when people don't take it :)), and I don't feel like someone is watching everything me and everything I spend my money on(**** off Big Brother). That's why I deal either in C.O.D. for long distance purchases, or I just go to the store (Wallmart/Zellers/Staples/FutureShop/EBGames) and just buy my favorite game. How are they going to get my ported copy to me? There is very little in today's age that can't be gotten by being sent right to your door if you can't find it or the local stores can't order it themselves.

[rafakl]

There wouldnt be problem if you need the windows version to run the linux version if they are packed in the same CD.... only its needed to MARKET the CD saying that the game is available for LINUX too.

Or there is a Microsoft complaint if the publishers do that???

[-X

[unkemptwolf]

Hey, I'd buy a copy of the Linux version, even though I own two copies of the windows version (I lost one and then found it again later). I'll encourage all the other linux users I know to as well. The more money these guys make, the more other game companies will sit up and take notice of a new market (they go wherever theres $$ to be made). So I hope they make a ton of money. I hope they need trucks to haul it all away. Then I can finally ditch windows for good as more and mroe game companies start building native linux clients.

<rant>
As far as whether the game is GPL or not, I think that is kinda secondary at this point. While games that are free (as in freedom) are great... I don't know if you've noticed but all the GPL games I've seen are running quite a bit behind the proprietary games (Anyone know of an RTS that even comes close to Rome: Total War for linux?). The most advanced games linux has (I'm thinking of Doom 3, Unreal 2k4, and the soon to be Quake 4 here) are all proprietary, so until the open source community catches up with the gaming industry(which will happen eventually), I will welcome any kind of game I can get. Playing a proprietary game doesn't change the fact that I'm playing it on a free operating system. I just want to be able to play my games, and not have MS or Apple breathing down my neck while I do it.
</rant>

[slux]

OK then, here goes my rant...

To people wishing for the Linux games industry to kick off in a bigger way I'd really suggest going and buying some
LGP (http://www.linuxgamepublishing.com/) titles now rather than waiting for something like this. Or, you could get something by id software, Epic, Runesoft, S2 Games, an icculus port... I have serious doubts about this mysterious Starcraft porting thing that information seems to be very scarce on... I'd rather bet on LGP continuing to offer games for the Linux gaming crowd any day even though it's not been easy for them with the small sales they're getting...

Here's something people might find interesting, Ryan "Icculus" Gordon's presentation slides from LinuxWorld 2004, titled "The Linux Game Industry". It gives a rundown on the history of games on Linux and where we are now and where we're going. Juicy tidbits include a posting on Slashdot by an employee of the (former) Hyperion entertainment stating that their *Amiga* versions outsell the Linux versions of their games by a good margin. Check it out (http://icculus.org/~icculus/slides/linuxworld-sf-2004/slideformats/pdf/LinuxWorld-SF-2004.pdf). Baseless promises of native port of StarCraft are only hurting. People need to at least give a chance to the games that are available and actually possible to get for Linux.

[hammett111]

OK then, here goes my rant...

To people wishing for the Linux games industry to kick off in a bigger way I'd really suggest going and buying some
LGP (http://www.linuxgamepublishing.com/) titles now rather than waiting for something like this. Or, you could get something by id software, Epic, Runesoft, S2 Games, an icculus port... I have serious doubts about this mysterious Starcraft porting thing that information seems to be very scarce on... I'd rather bet on LGP continuing to offer games for the Linux gaming crowd any day even though it's not been easy for them with the small sales they're getting...

Here's something people might find interesting, Ryan "Icculus" Gordon's presentation slides from LinuxWorld 2004, titled "The Linux Game Industry". It gives a rundown on the history of games on Linux and where we are now and where we're going. Juicy tidbits include a posting on Slashdot by an employee of the (former) Hyperion entertainment stating that their *Amiga* versions outsell the Linux versions of their games by a good margin. Check it out (http://icculus.org/~icculus/slides/linuxworld-sf-2004/slideformats/pdf/LinuxWorld-SF-2004.pdf). Baseless promises of native port of StarCraft are only hurting. People need to at least give a chance to the games that are available and actually possible to get for Linux.


Fair point(s).

We to would also encourage other linux users to start buying already available linux commercial games such as those mentioned so that the linux gaming industry becomes viable. Yes, we are a "mysterious" outfit, but being, shall we say, a "newb" to the gaming industry we need to know if our efforts will garner a financial black for us. This is only the beginning of our "enquires" we will soon have street walkers and pamphlet drops asking people, if they run linux, would they pay for a linux port of such and such...you get my drift.

Before any commercial enterprise of this risk is ventured into ALL the factors must be accounted for. Hence the forum posts.

Why begin with a trail blazer like Starcraft, simple. Its popular, has been for years and will probably be for a long time to come. Launching with a port of this magnitude, as is our hope, will allow us to move onto other less obscure titles so that a full range becomes available.

Linux is fairly big here in New Zealand, we dont have exact numbers on the takeup, but with education, a STABLE gaming environment and larger public awareness it should become a viable commercial market.

Thank you for your comments
Quentin

[unkemptwolf]

Perhaps you could convince blizzard to let you do a graphical update on the game as well, maybe moving it to 3D? :smile: I realize that is highly unlikely, but man, that would really make it hard to resist picking up a copy (but then again, I'm going to pick up a copy anyway, just like I did with quake III, Doom 3, UT, UT 2k3, UT 2k4, and NWN). Just a thought.

[Gibbz]

I think this would be great. As long as the installer is a no fuss, simple to install game(none of that horrid console shiz).

[agentdunken]

What is this Starcraft Linux port all about?

i have cedega and my starcraft works fine, i even play on battle net.

How did you get starcraft working?? I got it installed but every time I go to play it ask for a stupid CD. The CD is in but it keeps asking for it. I used Cedega 4.4.1.


If you can please type a How To and send it to someguy108@gmail.com

I want starcraft to work :(

Also I don't use Ubuntu.. I use Suse 9.3 Pro and found this thread on a search to install SC on linux.. I use to use Ubuntu though...

[ekravche]

Recently we have "re"begun work on a linux port of starcraft that unfortuantely needs the W$dows version to be installed.

Our problem is market. :razz:

We need to know if this project will be viable by posting on linux email user lists and getting a feel for the potential. So the questions:

1. Would you like to see a linux port of Starcraft and Broodwar?

2. Would you pay for them?

3. How much would you pay?

Thank you for your time K/Ubuntu users.

Here are some reasons as to why you may not want to do this.
1) Startcraft is old and the fan base that still plays it, plays it under windows.
2) There is no way that the port will be equivalent in all respects to the original.
3) Many linux users have a Windows partition especially for windows games.
4) How many individuals buy sc today? Not many, and if you are thinking of making money form doing this, then you'd probably need to analyze your business model better and do a lot of market research to get an estimate of how many individuals would actually be interested in buying it.

Here are some reason why you may want to do this.
1) Learn a lot about reverse engineering.
2) Expand your knowledge about different aspects involved in pursuing such a courageous project.
3) Try to use this to get a job at Blizzard.

I suppose you'd just have to weight the pros and cons and do what makes sense to you.

[hammett111]

Here are some reasons as to why you may not want to do this.
1) Startcraft is old and the fan base that still plays it, plays it under windows.
2) There is no way that the port will be equivalent in all respects to the original.
3) Many linux users have a Windows partition especially for windows games.
4) How many individuals buy sc today? Not many, and if you are thinking of making money form doing this, then you'd probably need to analyze your business model better and do a lot of market research to get an estimate of how many individuals would actually be interested in buying it.

Here are some reason why you may want to do this.
1) Learn a lot about reverse engineering.
2) Expand your knowledge about different aspects involved in pursuing such a courageous project.
3) Try to use this to get a job at Blizzard.

I suppose you'd just have to weight the pros and cons and do what makes sense to you.


Thank you, this is common feedback we get from many people, yet we have decided to pursue with this model for now.

Is it not interesting that you said "many linux users have a windows partition to play games like Starcraft" - we think its time linux ran on its own two feet, gaming and OS wise.

May I point some vistors to this forum to a game called X2. Titles like this and the support of gaming houses like ID and Epic will aid in there no longer being the need for a dual boot.

But fair point, dual booting seems to be a common thread:

ADDITIONAL QUESTION:

Do you dual boot windows/linux?

Why do you do this?

Thank you for bringing that to our attention, we seem to have lost that fact here
**sheepish**

Quentin

[slux]

ADDITIONAL QUESTION:

Do you dual boot windows/linux?

Why do you do this?


I used not to for 5-6 years straight. Relatively recently I went back to dual booting and by far the biggest reason this are demos (http://www.scene.org/) which probably isn't a very common one. :P

I've used it for a couple of games as well but I tend to very much favor ones that I can play on GNU/Linux and certainly don't buy any new Windows-only games.

[agentdunken]

I do not dual boot. I only use Linux. 6 months ago I use to dual boot but not any more because I never had to boot back into Windows. Linux is just sooo mich better.

[fragmental]

Thanks for the replies so far, one of us will be monitoring the forums to look at the feedback.

Depending on the demand and takeup of the Starcraft ports we will move on to Blizzards other titles.

I understand peoples concerns to do with multiplayer'bility, WINE and other emulators, in my opionion do no justice for Linux. Until we get games companies firmly establishing their titles for Linux along with the OTHER two major OS's then Linux will never compete with them. Linux ports must mean that a TRULY Linux port, in this instance I'm afraid we can only build a linux installer from the windows CD as obtaining the source code has been extremely difficult.

Thank you once again

So, you're certain their not going to send you a C&D letter? They did it to freecraft.

I think that, unless the costs are very low, doing a reverse engineered port of starcraft, that needs the windows cd, is not going to be a profiting endeavor. The best way to make money on a Starcraft port would probably be to sell the full game at a reasonable price(aka, the same amount the windows one sells...maybe a few bucks more but no more than $10) online. Distribution by download might be best because A. Most linux users will have the internet and more linux users than windows users have broadband, by far, probably. B. the costs would be much lower than producing cds or boxes and therefore you could continue to sell the game longer. If Loki had shut down shop and just sold the games they had already ported online through download, they might have eventually turned a profit, and could have then ported more games. Paying Blizzard for a starcraft port, when they won't let you sell the packaged game is probably a win-win for blizzard and loss for the porting company. Blizzard would stand to lose anothing and the porting company would stand to lose everything.

Most linux starcraft players will probably just play the game through wine, because it's one of the games that works very well with wine. They might buy the linux version of the game if they didn't have it already, and they might buy the native version just to support linux games, but if they have to buy the windows version they will probably be much less likely to buy the port. I mean, it still shows up as a windows game sell, so that's not incredibly supportive of linux.

Total Annihilation might be a better game to try to port than starcraft anyway, but I'm not sure how Atari would feel about licensing. I would expect a linux game from Atari before Blizzard though. After all, Ut2004 has a linux port. I think TA might also run well in Wine, but if you could sell TA+the port as a packaged deal then it would be better than selling the port separately for Starcraft.

I think that, in order for Linux gaming to really take off, there needs to be very easy to use Linux distributions optimized for gaming. They need all the interfaces to work optimally, all the gaming mouses to be support, and 3d accelerated audio and video set up standard with easy graphical interfaces to control everything. Optimized kernels and drivers couldn't hurt either. Most gamers would probably rather play games than hack the command line. Porting games to Linux also needs to be relatively easy. If there was one Linux Gaming standard that every distro could support, then a developer would know exactly how to port the game to work on every distribution. There could also be books written about that standard that would explain everything needed to know about porting Linux games and writing portable code. A standards base, might be more beneficial to Linux Gaming than a Starcraft port.

If the linux world had those two things, I think the amount of gamers who would pay for ports would increase and so would the amount of developers willing to make the ports or license the ports.

Edit: I was so busy ranting that I forgot. I would probably pay for a port, but not much. $10 tops probably and more likely $5. If the game didnt' need the windows version I woud pay more. between $10 and $25 depending on what kind of income I was making at the time(which is currently 0).

[hammett111]

So, you're certain their not going to send you a C&D letter? They did it to freecraft.

I think that, unless the costs are very low, doing a reverse engineered port of starcraft, that needs the windows cd, is not going to be a profiting endeavor. The best way to make money on a Starcraft port would probably be to sell the full game at a reasonable price(aka, the same amount the windows one sells...maybe a few bucks more but no more than $10) online. Distribution by download might be best because A. Most linux users will have the internet and more linux users than windows users have broadband, by far, probably. B. the costs would be much lower than producing cds or boxes and therefore you could continue to sell the game longer. If Loki had shut down shop and just sold the games they had already ported online through download, they might have eventually turned a profit, and could have then ported more games. Paying Blizzard for a starcraft port, when they won't let you sell the packaged game is probably a win-win for blizzard and loss for the porting company. Blizzard would stand to lose anothing and the porting company would stand to lose everything.

Most linux starcraft players will probably just play the game through wine, because it's one of the games that works very well with wine. They might buy the linux version of the game if they didn't have it already, and they might buy the native version just to support linux games, but if they have to buy the windows version they will probably be much less likely to buy the port. I mean, it still shows up as a windows game sell, so that's not incredibly supportive of linux.

Total Annihilation might be a better game to try to port than starcraft anyway, but I'm not sure how Atari would feel about licensing. I would expect a linux game from Atari before Blizzard though. After all, Ut2004 has a linux port. I think TA might also run well in Wine, but if you could sell TA+the port as a packaged deal then it would be better than selling the port separately for Starcraft.

I think that, in order for Linux gaming to really take off, there needs to be very easy to use Linux distributions optimized for gaming. They need all the interfaces to work optimally, all the gaming mouses to be support, and 3d accelerated audio and video set up standard with easy graphical interfaces to control everything. Optimized kernels and drivers couldn't hurt either. Most gamers would probably rather play games than hack the command line. Porting games to Linux also needs to be relatively easy. If there was one Linux Gaming standard that every distro could support, then a developer would know exactly how to port the game to work on every distribution. There could also be books written about that standard that would explain everything needed to know about porting Linux games and writing portable code. A standards base, might be more beneficial to Linux Gaming than a Starcraft port.

If the linux world had those two things, I think the amount of gamers who would pay for ports would increase and so would the amount of developers willing to make the ports or license the ports.

Edit: I was so busy ranting that I forgot. I would probably pay for a port, but not much. $10 tops probably and more likely $5. If the game didnt' need the windows version I woud pay more. between $10 and $25 depending on what kind of income I was making at the time(which is currently 0).

Excellent rant, yes, yes and YES!! I agree with all you have said.

I would like to annouce that we have "officially" become a listed company "The Linux Port Ltd" - trading as The Linux Port. We are changing our webservers and marketing to reflect this, our previous name Al-cunta did not wax well with potential clients and our negotiating position with gaming houses.

Our team, and a joint management decision have decided to make a purely linux port of Starcraft, Broodwar the windows/linux installer is on the back burner - i.e we have given it to some holidaying uni students to play with :-)

Linux has a lot going for it, so I won't bash it as much, but it does need some solid commercial gaming and OS industry development. Open source is all fine and dandy but nothing beats a solid commercial outfit getting stuck in and streamlining the system. Since we are committed to linux gaming I'm sure we'll dive into these issues first hand and get a feel for device support, and maybe even lend a hand in that arena, unfortunately our budget this year constrains us to gaming titles (the number we are keeping under wraps) - but lets say that its sufficiently high to get even us salivating.

Our web address will be changing as well, updates will be coming soon, as will voting for linux ports - after all you are the "suckers" paying for them :-), you will be the legs we stand or sink on. Give the market what they want.

Quentin

[DancingSun]

I think that, in order for Linux gaming to really take off, there needs to be very easy to use Linux distributions optimized for gaming. They need all the interfaces to work optimally, all the gaming mouses to be support, and 3d accelerated audio and video set up standard with easy graphical interfaces to control everything. Optimized kernels and drivers couldn't hurt either. Most gamers would probably rather play games than hack the command line. Porting games to Linux also needs to be relatively easy. If there was one Linux Gaming standard that every distro could support, then a developer would know exactly how to port the game to work on every distribution. There could also be books written about that standard that would explain everything needed to know about porting Linux games and writing portable code. A standards base, might be more beneficial to Linux Gaming than a Starcraft port.

If the linux world had those two things, I think the amount of gamers who would pay for ports would increase and so would the amount of developers willing to make the ports or license the ports.
Exactly my point of view as well! Linux needs a standard platform for application development. Similar to how X.org provides a platform for desktop managers, we need a Linux application platform so that developers can write an application once, and it would install uniformly and run perfectly on most if not all Linux distributions. The barrier of entry for Linux desktop applications needs to be lowered for a healthy Linux software applications economy to develop.

[JEDIDIAH]

Perhaps you could convince blizzard to let you do a graphical update on the game as well, maybe moving it to 3D? :smile: I realize that is highly unlikely, but man, that would really make it hard to resist picking up a copy (but then again, I'm going to pick up a copy anyway, just like I did with quake III, Doom 3, UT, UT 2k3, UT 2k4, and NWN). Just a thought.

What you're describing is more like the transitions between Dune2 -> Dune2000 -> Dune Emperor. That kind of change is not at all cosmetic and basically requries an entirely new rendering engine. That would be a LOT of work and would constitute a big portion of the entire R&D work for an entirely new title.

I think a much better approach would be to seek out the B list studios that might get squeezed out of BestBuy by the likes of EA and boost their numbers. They are more likely to be doing interesting work and will perhaps view the potential Linux sales as more meaningful.

Seek out tomorrow's Toad, Westwood or Blizzard.

[hammett111]

**UPDATE**

The news from Blizzards end is not encouraging, and they seem to be getting rather nasty about moving ANY of their titles to Linux. I cannot divulge what has been said exactly, but I can say that Blizzard has little or no faith in Linux's Gaming API's (lack of commercial development, industry standard) etc....

One thing I will release, and throw out as a question to all readers of this forum in the know. They mentioned in one conversation a problem between Bnet and Linux internet compatibility - We here are puzzling over that particular quote. Anyone care to shed some light.

Cheers, and keep the faith
Quentin

[DancingSun]

**UPDATE**

The news from Blizzards end is not encouraging, and they seem to be getting rather nasty about moving ANY of their titles to Linux. I cannot divulge what has been said exactly, but I can say that Blizzard has little or no faith in Linux's Gaming API's (lack of commercial development, industry standard) etc....

One thing I will release, and throw out as a question to all readers of this forum in the know. They mentioned in one conversation a problem between Bnet and Linux internet compatibility - We here are puzzling over that particular quote. Anyone care to shed some light.

Cheers, and keep the faith
Quentin
I think they are talking about bnetd (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bnetd) , a reversed engineered implementation of Blizzard's Battle.net. There was some legal bickery on this issue, and Blizzard won. This is one of the main reasons that the forumers here are so skeptical on what you are doing. If you want to pick a game to port to Linux, don't pick a Blizzard game. An open source clone of Warcraft, Freecraft, was threatened and the project was halted and had to change their name. I think it is extremely hard for a third party to port commercial games over to Linux, since many game company are very protective of their Intellectual Properties.

[hammett111]

I think they are talking about bnetd (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bnetd) , a reversed engineered implementation of Blizzard's Battle.net. There was some legal bickery on this issue, and Blizzard won. This is one of the main reasons that the forumers here are so skeptical on what you are doing. If you want to pick a game to port to Linux, don't pick a Blizzard game. An open source clone of Warcraft, Freecraft, was threatened and the project was halted and had to change their name. I think it is extremely hard for a third party to port commercial games over to Linux, since many game company are very protective of their Intellectual Properties.

Nope, they said there were compatibility issues.
We wonder here if it has something to do with the font rendering problem.....food for thought.

This was to be our main project, but once our servers are up we'll have a subscribers forum where linux users can vote on games to be ported. Popularity wins the day :-)

The negotiating team are frustrated and taking it out on me so forgive me if I'm short.

Quentin
P.S: We are seeking collaboration with other linux porting teams, several have begun negotiations, so cross fingers there too, that together we can speed the porting of titles to ya'll

[DancingSun]

So by bnet do they mean "Battle.net" or the GPL'ed "bnet"?
It wouldn't make sense to mention the GPL'ed bnet as having compatibiliy problems, as that would be what they wanted...and there is no Linux internet, the internet just that, there's only one.

In what context did they mention "bnet", "Linux", and "internet"?

[hammett111]

Here is the direct quote from the blizzard reps"

"There are some issues with Linux that may interfere with a connection to our servers ..." This was discussed in context with battlenet and its setup, which I am not a party to release.

They would not say what they were, "sooo bloody helpful when your trying to promise that the port will be of a standard befitting a Blizzard game."

Any more details I cannot release. Sorry its just as frustrating for us, WE NEED!!! to know the problems so that they can be addressed!!! **TEARING HAIR OUT**

Quentin

[DancingSun]

Here is the direct quote from the blizzard reps"

"There are some issues with Linux that may interfere with a connection to our servers ..." This was discussed in context with battlenet and its setup, which I am not a party to release.

They would not say what they were, "sooo bloody helpful when your trying to promise that the port will be of a standard befitting a Blizzard game."

Any more details I cannot release. Sorry its just as frustrating for us, WE NEED!!! to know the problems so that they can be addressed!!! **TEARING HAIR OUT**

Quentin
Try the following links. It might be helpful to contact some of these deveopers that made bnetd or the unofficial clients for Blizzard's Battle.net, they might now a thing or two on what Blizzard is talking about.


bnetd's sourceforge project site: http://sourceforge.net/projects/bnetd
bnetd's sources: http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~owend/free/bnetd.html
A site made by community developers to document Blizzard's Battle.net protocols: http://bnetdocs.valhallalegends.com/content.php?Section=c

[fragmental]

Here is the direct quote from the blizzard reps"

"There are some issues with Linux that may interfere with a connection to our servers ..." This was discussed in context with battlenet and its setup, which I am not a party to release.

They would not say what they were, "sooo bloody helpful when your trying to promise that the port will be of a standard befitting a Blizzard game."

Any more details I cannot release. Sorry its just as frustrating for us, WE NEED!!! to know the problems so that they can be addressed!!! **TEARING HAIR OUT**

Quentin
Maybe there's something about a linux version of Battlenet that they think would make battlenet easier to hack. Hackers are probably battlenets biggest problem.

In fact, if that was the reason they've never wanted to make linux ports of their games, and it was a valid reason, I would forgive them. Then again, they could just be stupid and think that Linux being GPL would mean that the game would have to show too much of it's insides or something equally ridiculous. Maybe microsoft fed them some load that they took to heart or gave them some cash.

I still say Total annihilation would be neat, though. however, there is a 3d port of TA that is supposed to be coming to linux. That's not quite the same though.

Although totally unrelated to strategy games, if you guys could convince http://www.telltallegames.com/ to port their games to linux, that would be totally awesome. Telltale already publishes all their games online so that it would be easy for people to get ahold of the games. So far the have Telltale Texas Hold'em and Bone: Out from Boneville and they are set to expand. They make their own engine and it's probably not too terribly complicated(as far as 3d engines go), thought I'm not sure all the games really use the same technology. Each of their games is about $20 and they publish them in parts so that there is a new one every 6 months instead of waiting two years to publish the full title. They are made up mostly of ex-lucas arts developers, and they are relatively small right now but they are set to expand. They recently aquired the Sam and Max license and possibly CSI(not too sure if that was just a rumour but the Sam and Max thing is real).

You should contact them, before they get too big to listen.

[hammett111]

Try the following links. It might be helpful to contact some of these deveopers that made bnetd or the unofficial clients for Blizzard's Battle.net, they might now a thing or two on what Blizzard is talking about.


bnetd's sourceforge project site: http://sourceforge.net/projects/bnetd
bnetd's sources: http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~owend/free/bnetd.html
A site made by community developers to document Blizzard's Battle.net protocols: http://bnetdocs.valhallalegends.com/content.php?Section=c


One very big problem that Blizzard will not address is their online update system. I'm sure you have all been to battlenet and played a little, and I'm sure you all have encountered Blizzards BNET UPDATER. Well in our little "tinkering" session last night we discovered a massive incompatibility that Blizzard will NOT address.

The Blizzard updater needs root permission "by default in W$ows - so no probs for them" to install and update your BNET interfaceand game software. No problems for us, we just create a default instalation in the users home directory, or usr/local/games and mirror the installation to the home directory. THE MEIN PROBLEM - their updaters are in the ""stinkin"" .exe format, and Blizzard will not change that, gives them greater security "HA HA HA!!" and control over potential hacks of their updates.

I have NEVER heard such filthy lies!! Sorry its 3am and we here are pissed.
Goodnight

Quentin

[DancingSun]

One very big problem that Blizzard will not address is their online update system. I'm sure you have all been to battlenet and played a little, and I'm sure you all have encountered Blizzards BNET UPDATER. Well in our little "tinkering" session last night we discovered a massive incompatibility that Blizzard will NOT address.

The Blizzard updater needs root permission "by default in W$ows - so no probs for them" to install and update your BNET interfaceand game software. No problems for us, we just create a default instalation in the users home directory, or usr/local/games and mirror the installation to the home directory. THE MEIN PROBLEM - their updaters are in the ""stinkin"" .exe format, and Blizzard will not change that, gives them greater security "HA HA HA!!" and control over potential hacks of their updates.

I have NEVER heard such filthy lies!! Sorry its 3am and we here are pissed.
Goodnight

Quentin
Hmm....you guys could make a Linux version of the updater...if you guys can come to agreement with them. See, the greatest impedence to commercial Linux gaming is not the technical issue, but platform and political issues.

[seethru]

Hmm....you guys could make a Linux version of the updater...if you guys can come to agreement with them. See, the greatest impedence to commercial Linux gaming is not the technical issue, but platform and political issues.
politics ruins everything...

[gil-galad]

Considering that they have a mac version of most of their games, I can't believe that it is windows only.

[Gibbz]

Intresting reading. Is this why porting games to linux is succh a pain. Yet windows Vista sounds like its gonna be great for gaming(a entral gaming center to change setting for all games etc).
There really needs to be a easy to use OS. I think most gamers dont care for seccurity(well they want security, but prefer speed/ease of use).

Would it be possible to not use the bnet updater? Maybe even just an offline/lan version to begin with and maybe a bnet patch later?

[Mishura]

I never let Battle.net update my games. I always went to Blizzard.com to get my patches.

Release them as tarballs and to hell with anything else. :)

[hammett111]

There are many other problems that have been highlighted that halt a true, clean, playable port to linux, and one I will mention is the movie clips ingame. Many people will realise that most linux players of the NWN native port cannot watch the ingame movie clips, this is because the movies are in the BINK format developed by RAD tools.

In Starcraft, the movies are encoded in the smacker format, for any of these to be playable, they have to be converted to another format (something we have tried and failed to do reliably) or work with RAD tools to develop a Linux library for the BINK and SMACKER formats.

We have contacted RAD tools, and they have expressed extreme interest in working with us to develop these libraries. If we can negotiate a deal with BIOWARE as well we may be able to finish the NWN native linux ports with the ingame video wiorking. To us this would been a beneficial starting point in working with the BINK and SMACKER formats, so that knowledge gained in working with NWN could be translated to a Starcraft port.

As per the mac updates, Blizzard have not mentioned to us why this could not be translated to a linux update, or allowing us to develop the updates for linux users. Be assurred we are working hard and will keep everyone up to date.

In the mean time, support the native games already available, open source and not :grin: .

P.S: I recommend the TREMULOUS mod, when we need to unwind, we bug hunt.

[DancingSun]

A tad bit off-topic, but do you know what's the advantage of using BINK video over MPEG-4 + OGG? Is it because the deveopers are afraid that the in-game videos will be viewed outside of the game?

Anyway, I wish you guys luck. The Linux gaming business has always been a hard nut to crack.

I'm still skeptical, because I still believe a viable platform needs to be established first.

[fragmental]

I'm not sure what the benefit of using bink or smacker over other formats is either(esp. codecs like divx). A bink/smacker port would be awesome though.

I still think that some one needs to port telltale's games to linux(I don't care who. Anyone). A mac port wouldn't be too out of sight then because the porting processes would probably share many attributes(porting to opengl, gcc, sdl, etc..) Their online distribution system seems tailor made for linux users, if it could be ported. I mean, some linux users might not like the idea of having to authorize the game online before playing it, but the authorization would keep the piraters at bay, so sales would not suffer from bootleggers and piraters. Most linux users have broadband, so the download shouldn't be too bad too.

[slux]

Heh. Bink, at least already has a port but it going to cost to license for GNU/Linux even if you have the Windows version. (As Icculus learned when he was trying to get MOHAA ported and needed Miles)

What do you mean by not being able to convert reliably, seems to work for NWNMovies just fine...

The Bink/Smacker advantage is probably just ease of use. That and Theora is still in alpha so you might say that there is no viable free alternative. I'm thinking it might eventually be put to as much use as the Vorbis audio codec after it is officially released.

[hammett111]

Heh. Bink, at least already has a port but it going to cost to license for GNU/Linux even if you have the Windows version. (As Icculus learned when he was trying to get MOHAA ported and needed Miles)

What do you mean by not being able to convert reliably, seems to work for NWNMovies just fine...

The Bink/Smacker advantage is probably just ease of use. That and Theora is still in alpha so you might say that there is no viable free alternative. I'm thinking it might eventually be put to as much use as the Vorbis audio codec after it is officially released.

I was talking about the Starcraft SMACKER in game video. In our alpha runs we stripped the videos from a windows install, and tried using the SMACKER video tools to convert them to AVI for later processing. But she was a no go.

In Starcraft the SMACKER video files are broken into smaller portions, and then combined ingame to provide the ingame clip. The SMACKER sdk kit had to combine all the "video portions" together into one file. We then viewed these files (by the way this was all done on a Wi$ows box so dont hate us for using the tools of the enemy) to ensure they had been "put back together" properly - which they were, and then tried to convert them to AVI, using the SMACKER sdk. Would'nt do it.

We now have the ingame video all happily sitting around waiting for Blizzard approval as well as our LSK application which we developed to install the .MPQ files from Starcraft onto a linux box from a windows CD, and then read them. Believe me that was one hairy little mutha, but she worked and we got some level of game play but she was a long way off perfect.

Anyway late gotta run. I monitor the Ubuntu forums for the team now, I check daily so feel free to ask any questions.

Quentin

[gez]

Diabo II would be awsome!

"I am.. ..over-burdened". Cool.

[kemosabe79]

Id like to see native ports for ALL of the Blizzard games. Especially Starcraft, Diablo II, and there expansion packs.

[hammett111]

**UPDATE**

Sorry for the absence we have been busy building our contacts within the linux user groups here in New Zealand. We are getting together a dedicated team of alpha testers as well as sourcing more venture capital.

I can report Blizzard have been receptive to us so far, but would like us to solve a few linux problems, and establish some working ports of other titles before they give us the go ahead.

We have an R&D team now who will be developing some wonderful gaming technology for linux so we'll keep ya posted.

Q

By the way our website address is now changed, update soon

[HeavyAl]

I realize this is a somewhat old thread but I own starcraft and broodwar and if there was ever a port done to linux for them I would be completely thrilled to see it. 'Til Warhammer came out StarCraft was still my favorite rts of all time and since WH doesnt run worth crap on Linux (even using the dx9wine bins). Having starcraft would very much curb my need to run to windows when I need a gaming fix.

[business.geek]

Hi there!

If there is an ongoing effort to port Starcraft and other windows games to Linux. I am very much interested in volunteering my time to be a tester! and im sure a lot of linux guys here in the philippines are also willing to do that also!

Cheers!

[samjh]

A Linux native port of the most influential and popular RTS game ever created? Count me in!

Heck I might even contribute to the coding effort, if time can be found! :)

[MaX]

I would try getting a Linux port of the new Sam & Max adventure games instead.
Or for god's sake try some newer game.

The main complaint about Linux is that it doesn't run games, well it won't do if it runs old games, it has to run the new games!

Drop Starcraft, try porting Settlers Aneverserie edition instead or UFO:Afterlight

[the.unclean.cpp]

I'd sure buy it!
I love Starcraft and I miss it on linux. I would install it if it'll be as stable as the Windows version and it'll have the same features.

[Artificial Intelligence]

Thread closed. No need to necromancing old thread where OP was last online 2005.
If OP one day comes back and want the thread reopen, we'll take it from there.