Discussions about reverse engineering

[blastus]

You know it seems hypocritical to allow threads to carry on that discuss circumventing encryption (and other related stuff) using libdvdcss2 etc... etc... etc... and not allow any discussion of any kind of reverse engineering regarding anything for whatever reason.

I understand if no-one is allowed to discuss anything about reverse engineering, but it is hypocritical to allow other discussions to carry on about tools that make use of reverse engineering. I don't think anyone will dispute that EVERY PIECE OF PROPRIETARY HARDWARE AND SOFTWARE has a "do not reverse engineer" clause.

However, there's no difference between what I asked in my thread and someone who comes on this board and asks "How do I play encrypted DVDs on Linux?" or "How do I rip encrypted DVDs?" Honestly, I don't know any other way one can interpret this; either way by allowing those other discussions to continue this board is facilitating the same end result. Yet my thread was closed and the others live on.

You don't need to explain to me the liability on the forums. However, all I ask is that we be consistent about it and close the "other" threads too.

[LaRoza]

I don't think you understand the topic.

The encrypted dvd playback issues are specific to one country, and are not illegal per se. Cracking something in direct violation of its EULA is illegal everywhere.

For more on libdvdcss, see http://www.videolan.org/doc/faq/en/index.html#id305772 it is a VLC FAQ, but it tells the truth.

[blastus]

I don't think you understand the topic.

The encrypted dvd playback issues are specific to one country, and are not illegal per se. Cracking something in direct violation of its EULA is illegal everywhere.

And playing encrypted dvd's involves cracking ANY WHICH WAY YOU LOOK AT IT and it involves a violation of a license agreement ANY WHICH WAY LOOK AT IT. You're blanket assumption that violating a license agreement is illegal in the entire world is flakey at best.

As no manufacturer of any vehicle flash programmer takes liability for engine damage, I have a need to understand the file format the device uses to ensure that the settings are correct so that it does not cause damage to my car's engine (example pinging, knocking, air/fuel table, oxygen sensor... etc...)

[saulgoode]

Cracking something in direct violation of its EULA is illegal everywhere.

It is not illegal if the EULA has not been accepted by the "cracker". This is a very common -- and legal -- approach in reverse engineering.

[scorp123]

You know it seems hypocritical to allow threads to carry on that discuss circumventing encryption (and other related stuff) using libdvdcss2 etc... etc... etc... and not allow any discussion of any kind of reverse engineering regarding anything for whatever reason. I just saw your thread. The big difference is that your posting sounds really really shady, you don't even mention what kind of device it is you're talking about in your posting. I fully understand the Admin who closed the thread.

The other thing is ... you want to reverse-engineer something and you are using "Java to help in the process"???? Sounds like you're way outside of your league. Even if the discussion had continued I wonder if you had been able to even understand what others write? :)

Sorry if I sound rude, that's not my intention.

I understand if no-one is allowed to discuss anything about reverse engineering "anything" is wrong here. Very often things get reverse-engineered, e.g. the SAMBA protocol. But you sound so totally shady with your descriptions about that "device", whatever it is.

However, there's no difference between what I asked in my thread and someone who comes on this board and asks "How do I play encrypted DVDs on Linux?" or "How do I rip encrypted DVDs?" There is a major difference: Those guys at least say directly what they want, and copying / ripping legally owned DVD's isn't illegal at all. Cracking encrypted stuff on mysterious devices that you avoided to describe any further however sounds pretty much like you were trying to do something unlawful. That's at least how I perceived it.

You talked about "being consistent". How about "being open"? Don't talk in riddles and your postings will appear less shady, IMHO.

And my apologies if anything of what I wrote up there sounded rude to you or got you upset ... that wasn't my intention. I just feel that the admins did what they had to do as you left them with little choice.

[LaRoza]

And playing encrypted dvd's involves cracking ANY WHICH WAY YOU LOOK AT IT and it involves a violation of a license agreement ANY WHICH WAY LOOK AT IT. You're blanket assumption that violating a license agreement is illegal in the entire world is flakey at best.


I never had to agree to anything when I bought/played a DVD. The only restrictions are by law. When you agree to an EULA you are agreeing to a contract. All EULA of proprietary software that I have read (yes, I read them) include a ban a such reverse engineering.

In the US, there is an law called the DMCA which forbids cracking software for any reason. There are exemptions to this which require:


Exemptions are granted when it is shown that access-control technology has had a substantial adverse effect on the ability of people to make noninfringing uses of copyrighted works.


Using libdvdcss is the only way (I know of) to watch such dvd's on some operating systems. It is not used for any other reason. If it is not yet exempt from the act, it should be, and revisions are on the way. This law only applies to the USA.

Saying you agree to not to disassembly the software then doing it is different from this.

You are asking others to assist you in doing an illegal act. That violates the forum rules. Even if others did it with out being moderated, it doesn't make it right. Claiming it is alright for you do to it, because you think others do it, is very juvenile.

If you think discussions on libdvdcss is against the forum rules, then report instances. Apparently, you don't believe it is, because you asked a question beyond that so don't complain that such discussions are allowed.

[LaRoza]

It is not illegal if the EULA has not been accepted by the "cracker". This is a very common -- and legal -- approach in reverse engineering.

Interesting. But telling someone on this forum how do it violates the rules. Asking someone to violate the code of conduct is just as bad as doing it.

[scorp123]

As no manufacturer of any vehicle flash programmer takes liability for engine damage, I have a need to understand the file format the device uses to ensure that the settings are correct so that it does not cause damage to my car's engine (example pinging, knocking, air/fuel table, oxygen sensor... etc...) Why didn't you write in such an open way right from start? :)

I would suggest you Google around for some car tuning forum. Chances are that those guys know a great lot more about the flash programs in various car engines than anyone here.

Just recently my boss had to manipulate the car engine of his shiny new Ford Mustang (something with how the engine mixed fuel and air was not right ... the engine had the bad habit of shutting down all of a sudden!) and he too found all he needed to know via various car tuning forums.

And nope, as far as I know manipulating this stuff isn't illegal (at least not outside of the USA) ... it just may break any warranty you have from the car manufacturor or the car dealer. But I guess if you mess with such things then you already knew that.

My solution is simple: I only buy Toyota cars. Their cars just work and never ever break down and I never have to worry about such things :)

[LaRoza]

Google will your friend in this case...

There are plenty of decompilers for Java (if that is what you need) available for free.

[saulgoode]

I never had to agree to anything when I bought/played a DVD. The only restrictions are by law. When you agree to an EULA you are agreeing to a contract. All EULA of proprietary software that I have read (yes, I read them) include a ban a such reverse engineering.

If I recall the original post, there was no mention of reverse engineering software; the intent was to decrypt a data file which was produced by some software. Even if the user agreed to a EULA which forbid reverse engineering the code, that says nothing towards the legality of decrypting data.

In the US, there is an law called the DMCA which forbids cracking software for any reason.

You have misinterpreted the DMCA, it only applies to circumventing mechanisms whose intent is protecting copyrighted material. It is doubtful that engine monitoring statistics could in any way be copyrighted.

[mips]

Reverse engineering done the CORRECT way is legal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_engineering
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_room_design
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_wall#Computer_science
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_box_testing


If it was not for reverse engineering there would be no open source drivers for broadcom, nvidea etc. These companies are well aware of these projects but legally they know they don't have a leg to stand on if they tried to stop these projects.

DRM is a slightly different story but it only applies in a few countries like the USA.

[blastus]

The other thing is ... you want to reverse-engineer something and you are using "Java to help in the process"???? Sounds like you're way outside of your league.

I highly doubt that the tools out there to reverse engineering file formats do everything. A lot of experimentation and trial and error would be involved. For that you will mostly likely need some sort of programming or scripting language to aid the process.

I've give you an example...user daeken uses Python to help reverse engineer the VPK file format used in EverQuest II (http://www.openrce.org/articles/full_view/16)

I'm not an idiot. I know very little about reverse engineering file formats but I am a software developer so I do know some things.

Even if the discussion had continued I wonder if you had been able to even understand what others write?

Sorry if I sound rude, that's not my intention.

Sigh.

You talked about "being consistent". How about "being open"? Don't talk in riddles and your postings will appear less shady, IMHO.

And my apologies if anything of what I wrote up there sounded rude to you or got you upset ... that wasn't my intention. I just feel that the admins did what they had to do as you left them with little choice.

My thread would have been closed regardless so the intent doesn't really matter does it? I have no problem what that on these forums. What I do have an issue with is allowing other discussions to carry on about playing and copying encypted DVD (just as an example) but not allowing any discussion about what I was attempting to do because well, it is automatically illegal without question in the entire world.

Perhaps I should have been more specific, but reverse engineering is a forbidden topic pretty everywhere anyway and if I had named the device and spelled everything out would that really make any difference? But hey, it's all cool. We can carry on talking about playing and ripping encypted DVDs (as an example) on the forums and act like it is significantly legally different that I was trying to do.

And nope, as far as I know manipulating this stuff isn't illegal (at least not outside of the USA) ... it just may break any warranty you have from the car manufacturor or the car dealer. But I guess if you mess with such things then you already knew that.

My solution is simple: I only buy Toyota cars. Their cars just work and never ever break down and I never have to worry about such things

My car is not broken, it is modded. In my case I decided I would reprogram my vehicle's computer myself instead of paying a ransom to some dealership.

Google will your friend in this case...

There are plenty of decompilers for Java (if that is what you need) available for free.

LaRoza I appreciate your feedback, but sometimes you come off a tad ignorant about the discussion. I was not trying to decompile Java software or any kind of software whatsoever. Java is irrelevant. I'm not sure why it is being brought up.

It is doubtful that engine monitoring statistics could in any way be copyrighted.

Microprocessor modules in vehicles along with the communication bus are based on standards otherwise the cost of a vehicle today would be through the roof as every car manufacturer would have to have their own proprietary crap.

[PriceChild]

Yes we do have double standards wrt to libdvdcss... (came up wrt irc guidelines lately)

For example personally I try to dissuade all console modding discussion wheras don't mind libdvdcss support. Hacking a console to play pirated games vs playing legally bought, encrypted dvds. Seemed fair in my books.

Anyways... I guess we should ban all discussion on libdvdcss henceforth? Or shall we just forget about the questionable legality.

[scorp123]

My car is not broken, it is modded. In my case I decided I would reprogram my vehicle's computer myself instead of paying a ransom to some dealership. OK, same as with my boss' car. His car is heavily modded too, what's why the engine made troubles all of a sudden (it didn't get along too well with the modded air intakes he installed ... so he had to modify some programs in the car engine's embedded computer). As I wrote earlier: Your best bet would be to check if there are any good car tuning / car modding forums. Chances are someone has the same car + model that you have and has already had a similar problem and solved it.

[LaRoza]

LaRoza I appreciate your feedback, but sometimes you come off a tad ignorant about the discussion. I was not trying to decompile Java software or any kind of software whatsoever. Java is irrelevant. I'm not sure why it is being brought up.

You mentioned Java: Edit: Forgot to mention I'll use Java to aid in the process

A tad ignorant? Perhaps, but your post was vague about what you wanted, besides disassembling a binary file, which could be anything for a Word document to a kernel.

There are plenty of disassemblers available, http://www.google.com/search?client=opera&rls=en&q=disassemblers&sourceid=opera&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8, perhaps you can use one of those to help. The Free Country (http://www.thefreecountry.com/programming/disassemblers.shtml) might have something you can use.

Your original post made it seem like you wanted to crack a program. I don't know much about cars except how internal combustion engines work, and that gas is expensive.

[blastus]

If it was not for reverse engineering there would be no open source drivers for broadcom, nvidea etc. These companies are well aware of these projects but legally they know they don't have a leg to stand on if they tried to stop these projects.

Another reason why I wanted to reverse engineer the file format is to get the device to work with Linux. Knowing the file format would enable me to verify that at least the export of the file worked under Linux (because I could compare the file export under Windows and Linux.) I've been trying to get the PL2303 kernel driver to work with xmodem transfer but haven't had any success. But I'm not going to be contributing to these forums in that way; there's too many users with attitudes here.

[Paul820]

Your original post made it seem like you wanted to crack a program. I don't know much about cars except how internal combustion engines work, and that gas is expensive.

Maybe you should have listened to what the OP had to say before going for the jugular ;)

[LaRoza]

Maybe you should have listened to what the OP had to say before going for the jugular ;)

Did you look at the post that started all this? I responded to the post which was locked by a mod who agreed that with me that the content was against the code of conduct. The vagueness of the original post warrented my response. The actual issue came up long after that post.

[Paul820]

Yes i did, it was is the community cafe.

[LaRoza]

The issue is with a car, and entirely legal it seems. I don't know how much help can be had here, but perhaps the mods will unlock the thread, and the OP can restate the issue more precisely, so it doesn't sound like a copy right infringement quest.

[mips]

Yes we do have double standards wrt to libdvdcss... (came up wrt irc guidelines lately)

For example personally I try to dissuade all console modding discussion wheras don't mind libdvdcss support. Hacking a console to play pirated games vs playing legally bought, encrypted dvds. Seemed fair in my books.

Anyways... I guess we should ban all discussion on libdvdcss henceforth? Or shall we just forget about the questionable legality.

I mentioned the double standards regarding libdvdcss many moons ago and basically got fobbed off.

Hacking consoles does not mean you are a software pirate. I could just as well want to play my backed up games while I keep my originals in a safe place so they don't get damaged. Similair to me ripping all my music cd's to flac and never using the originals because they get scratched, go missing or get stolen.

I dunno about about banning libdvdcss discussions. If you might as well ban music/dvd ripping discussions etc. libdvdcss is only a legal issue in the USA so far, this forum has no USA connections anymore from a ownership, server location, dns registration perspective so why bow to the usa ?

As for the OP trying to get his engine management data out of file I find this way less of an issue than some other things discussed here.