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rikhard.fsoss
November 8th, 2007, 11:08 PM
hi everyone,

i've been reading some very serious stuff about GNOME/Novell and MONO, and i'm really concerned because GNOME was born to be free, was born to be a replacement of KDE because QT in those times wasn't using GPL.

but now GNOME depends to much in technology that has a lot to do with microsoft, there are too many dependencies to MONO.

tomboy, banshee, beagle etc, all depend on MONO....
and now even gnumeric is about to be commited to m$-ooxml.

can ubuntu give us a free MONO GNOME?

how about start using other desktop?
should ubuntu become KDE centric?
what about ubuntu standardize in E17?

What Lies Beneath (Another Mono Alert) (http://boycottnovell.com/2007/11/08/mono-alert/)


"In response to criticisms about GNOME’s role in OOXML (http://boycottnovell.com/2007/10/28/odf-ooxml-mono-gnome-openoffice/), Jeff Waugh has just assured Richard Stallman (whom I spoke to yesterday) that a statement will shortly be made to clarify where GNOME stands on the issue of OOXML." (http://mail.gnome.org/archives/foundation-list/2007-November/msg00076.html)

what have you girls and boys of ubuntu FLOSS to say about this?

thank's

RJ

reckless2k2
November 8th, 2007, 11:11 PM
i thought GNOME was before KDE?

atlascomplete
November 8th, 2007, 11:16 PM
i thought GNOME was before KDE?

I thought that too.

kshane
November 8th, 2007, 11:19 PM
Call me stupid, but I have been unaware of all this MS/Mono/ooxml stuff. I like Gnome. I don't use Beagle, Tomboy or the other stuff you mentioned. I do NOT like KDE. If Ubuntu went to all KDE I would have to go to another distro.

I like the look and feel of my Gnome desktop. And lastly I do NOT like KDE and I will not use it...

Just my 2 cents...

Kevin

PS: I do not like KDE... :lolflag:

cleentrax
November 8th, 2007, 11:19 PM
Good question.

I have been a Gnome user since I started using Linux three years ago. Primarily for altruistic reasons. But also because I found KDE to be ugly and busy, and I hate using a web browser as a file manager.

But KDE4/Dolphin look great, and I am conflicted about Mono. It does seem like a great tool, and a good way to ease .net developers into developing FLOSS. But it could also prove to be a Microsoft trojan horse, maybe even literally, as malware, though more likely for future patent wars over "Microsoft property" increasingly buried in the core of Gnome.

Luckily, we have two great alternatives in KDE and XFCE, and they are already available as Kubuntu/Xubuntu, so if we need to make the switch, it won't cause too much pain. I'm sure that the fine folks at Canonical are keeping an eye on things. In the fight for freedom of intellectual property, they have yet to disappoint me.

kellemes
November 8th, 2007, 11:22 PM
Why would Ubuntu use another w/dm if there are Kubuntu, Xubuntu, Elbuntu etc..?

Asraniel
November 8th, 2007, 11:32 PM
yes, just switch to kde :-) you will also get free :popcorn: while using kde ;-)

joke aside, i think the whole gnome project could be in serious trouble one day because of mono, kde is on the save side

SunnyRabbiera
November 8th, 2007, 11:34 PM
well if it would get a decent menu editor and its file manager improved XFCE could be a great contender

bruce89
November 8th, 2007, 11:57 PM
and now even gnumeric is about to be commited to m$-ooxml.


Gnumeric isn't going to make OOXML the default.

People have to realise that 90% of new documents will be in Open Office XML, so we have to implement these formats (but use ODF as default).

Regarding mono, I hate it, but only because it's bloody slow, Vala is interesting.

samjh
November 9th, 2007, 12:41 AM
I thought that too.

KDE came first. Gnome was invented because KDE was dependent on then-proprietary QT libraries from Trolltech (Trolltech later switched QT licensing to GPL with optional commercial license for closed-source software). Gnome built from GTK, which was licensed under LGPL.

I too am somewhat concerned about Gnome's increasing dependency on Mono. Gnome is a very good project, but the fact that it relies so much on a technology that is analogous to - and therefore carries patent and copyright concerns - Microsoft .NET is disturbing. Although Mono insists that it does not infringe on any MS patents, you have to keep in mind that every respondent in civil litigation thinks they've done nothing wrong; Novell and the Mono project is no exception to this type of thinking. There is little certainly in law, especially in an area of law not often contested in court, such as software patents.

However, I disagree on the suggestion that Ubuntu discontinue using Gnome or going for a Mono-free Gnome. Mono is now an integral part of the Gnome desktop, and I don't think it will be feasible to reverse that. The trend can be reined in, but not fully reversed without major work.

Rather, I think Canonical should increase their support for Kubuntu and Xubuntu to the same level as Ubuntu, both of which are treated as second-class citizens.

bruce89
November 9th, 2007, 12:45 AM
Gnome built from GTK, which was licensed under LGPL.

Still is.

samjh
November 9th, 2007, 12:49 AM
Yes, but I was talking about the past continuing to the present, not the present exclusively.

Zipster90
November 9th, 2007, 12:51 AM
I wouldn't mind a switch too much, but I really can't say I like KDE.

The last time I used KDE (a few months ago) it seemed dated and clunky, and I hated the fact that Konqueror was just that, conquering every aspect of the system. It reminded me too much of Windows Explorer.

I would probably stay with Ubuntu even if they switched fully to KDE. It would take a LOT of getting used to, but I think I could tolerate such a change.

bruce89
November 9th, 2007, 12:56 AM
If Ubuntu ever moved to KDE (not going to happen), there will be a Gubuntu.

Mono can be removed you know.

earther
November 9th, 2007, 01:34 AM
Call me stupid, but I have been unaware of all this MS/Mono/ooxml stuff. I like Gnome. I don't use Beagle, Tomboy or the other stuff you mentioned. I do NOT like KDE. If Ubuntu went to all KDE I would have to go to another distro.

I like the look and feel of my Gnome desktop. And lastly I do NOT like KDE and I will not use it...

Just my 2 cents...

Kevin

PS: I do not like KDE... :lolflag:
Couldn't have said it better myself. Xfce would be my next favorite desktop choice, not ever KDE.

Jouke74
November 9th, 2007, 03:58 PM
And XFCE is a light weight version of Gnome :) and to be honest I don't know how much mono is still in there.

23meg
November 9th, 2007, 04:10 PM
but now GNOME depends to much in technology that has a lot to do with microsoft, there are too many dependencies to MONO.
Wrong. Nothing in the "core" of GNOME is written in Mono; only certain peripheral apps are, and they all have alternatives.

tomboy, banshee, beagle etc, all depend on MONO....
Ubuntu only ships Tomboy and F-Spot, which you can easily remove.

georghess
November 10th, 2007, 05:04 AM
Lets not forget that Gnome, KDE, XFCE etc are only operating on top of Linux (Ubuntu) ... its easy to switch but the basic distro is still the same.

:-)

Colro
November 11th, 2007, 12:13 AM
Rather, I think Canonical should increase their support for Kubuntu and Xubuntu to the same level as Ubuntu, both of which are treated as second-class citizens.

I agree. I don't bother with Kubuntu anymore simply because so much random crap breaks due to lack of support.

adam.tropics
November 11th, 2007, 12:18 AM
Choice. Yours to make, and Ubuntu will continue to offer it. I hope!!

Chrisj303
November 11th, 2007, 04:16 PM
I prefer Gnome and XFCE.

I've always found KDE to feel unfinished.

Out of the Box, it also looks unprofessional, and kind of childish - it wouldn't suit an Office enviroment (IMO).

Surgeon General
November 17th, 2007, 09:11 PM
let ubuntu be gnome
let kubuntu be kde

i like windowmaker and blackbox so would there be a wubuntu and bubuntu? :lolflag:

inversekinetix
November 19th, 2007, 01:27 AM
i like xfce but i think kde is better for people coming from windows. i can take or leave gnome

Dimitriid
November 19th, 2007, 05:06 AM
Ubuntu should not use something that goes around and betrays the principles of Ubuntu or that specifically aids people against GNU and FOSS.

Now when I actually see something a little bit more substantial on this allegations I'll go to xfce or openbox, until then Gnome it is.

Xanatos Craven
November 19th, 2007, 07:36 PM
Eh, what's this now? I read that there's only a small, Win32-specific subset of Mono that may be patent-infringing, and most of the GNOME Mono apps out there use GTK#, which incredibly likely does not infringe any patent, since C# itself is a standard and GTK is obviously free.

And considering that no core functionality of GNOME relies upon any of Mono,... and that MS seems more interested in collecting a patent tax from gullible companies than actually suing anyone, I think you guys are being just a bit paranoid.

If you're going to switch to KDE, do so for its technical merits, not because of some FUD.

aysiu
November 19th, 2007, 08:45 PM
let ubuntu be gnome
let kubuntu be kde

i like windowmaker and blackbox so would there be a wubuntu and bubuntu? :lolflag: It's not a matter of what should exist. It's a matter of what people are willing to make exist. If someone likes Windowmaker enough to make a Ubuntu remix featuring Windowmaker, then there will be a WMBuntu. If someone likes Blackbox enough to make a Ubuntu remix featuring Blackbox, there will be a BBBuntu.

As it stands, there is already Fluxbuntu, which some people thought was worth creating (it features Fluxbox).