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inversekinetix
November 7th, 2007, 01:22 PM
I'd like to register a complaint against forum staff member Frodon, where should I direct it?

matthew
November 7th, 2007, 02:05 PM
Post it here.

inversekinetix
November 7th, 2007, 10:50 PM
@User Frodon if you saw the post in here, please post your response in this thread rather than using the private message system. Please only use the private message system to inform me of private matters and in your administrative duties, DO NOT use it in response to public threads.

Thank you,

Inverse

matthew
November 7th, 2007, 10:55 PM
@User Frodon if you saw the post in here, please post your response in this thread rather than using the private message system. Please only use the private message system to inform me of private matters and in your administrative duties, DO NOT use it in response to public threads.

Thank you,

InverseAccording to the posted guidelines (http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=123), he is not supposed to post here.

3. The administration staff and the thread starter will converse, other forum members posts/comments will be removed/edited out.Again, is there something you wish to bring up?

inversekinetix
November 7th, 2007, 11:28 PM
I would like to complain about the way staff member Frodon handled a situation in which I apparently broke the forum rules.



Sceenario was:

i received an infraction for saying this

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.p...27#post3714927

''Im sure they're loving the suckaz that buy their over priced products, o wait sorry you own a couple. Did they come with free hair gel and some apple logo stickers?''

to an apple user (screen name Chrisj303).

The infraction was given by Frodon.

I said that in response to Chrisj303 saying

'I'm sure Apple are reeling from losing your sale.

And what are you talking about XP for? - I thought serious computer users didn't need a GUI?'.


I was told my post was moved for:


"Dear inversekinetix,

You have received an infraction at Ubuntu Forums.

Reason: Inappropriate Language
-------
Please stop flamming threads or use another posting style that does not make threads become a flame war, there's no point doing this and our Code of Conduct don't allow this :
Quote:
Originally Posted by Code Of Conduct
# Forum Threads and Flaming:

* Flaming and condescending messages: Flames are messages that personally attack, call people names, or otherwise harass another forum member (or any person). These, along with any generally condescending posts will be moved or removed at the moderators discretion.
* If the thread is flame-bait (appears to be intended to start an argument or is likely to cause an argument rather than enhance discussion), it will be locked or removed without notice. Individual flame-bait may be deleted or edited at the moderators' discretion. Any users who continue to post in this manner or engage in other questionable practices, like trolling (posting in an attempt to engage people in arguments) may be subject to more serious sanctions.
* If the thread turns into an argument, it can be locked or removed without notice. Sometimes a moderator may split the thread or delete certain portions in order to keep the discussion going, but that is not always possible.
Please consider changing a little bit your posting style. Feel free to answer this message if you have questions or objections regarding this infraction.

Regards

Frodon
-------

This infraction is worth 1 point(s) and may result in restricted access until it expires. Serious infractions will never expire."


Now as far as I can see, both myself and user Chrisj303 were both as bad as each other, a little bit of baiting on both sides it seems to me. The other user concerned is no angel either, see

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=605313


Now in response to Frodons original message I replied with

Firstly, thanks for your message, polite and to the point. However I'd just like to say (although I'm sure it's pointless) that I made a comment about my experience with an operating system and also commented that I wouldn't have any mac products in my home. Is that not a valid opinion? However out of the blue the user who complained about my post felt it necessary to:

1. make an unnecessary sarcastic jab at me (what was the basis for this?) my post wasn't aimed at anyone.

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrisj303 View Post
I'm sure Apple are reeling from losing your sale.

2. patronize me based on my earlier comments.

Quote:
And what are you talking about XP for? - I thought serious computer users didn't need a GUI?

Whilst your forum rules may use the word condescending I'm not sure it is being interpreted correctly in this case,

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/condescending


I never attempted to elevate myself in order to make a point. I based my comment (I'm assuming that sucka was what you thought was condescending) on my opinion that mac products are overpriced for what they actually are and that apple take advantage of their customers with glitzy advertising and the mac i-lifestyle. Fair comment I think.

Anyway, I digress. The reason for the infraction was that I was allegedly condescending ( which is not allowed) in reply to a post which was both provocative and patronizing (allowed).

Condescension and patronization are very alike,

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/patronize


I'd just like you to explain to my why it is ok for one user to be patronizing (same as condescending) but another can't condescend.


It seems to me that the rules on this forum are applied on a very subjective basis. Condescending comments are all over this forum as are derogatory remarks about people and products.

^^^^
My reply was polite and cordial I think, I only asked for an explanation of what exactly it was that I had done that deserved an infraction.

The response I got from staff member Frodon was

It is not ok for any user, this is the exact purpose of the "report post" button which many users used against you. So if a user offend you use this report button and don't answer.

To be more clear the content of your post don't matter for me, it is the general tone you use in each of your post (yes i watched your post history) which is wrong not your opinion. We will never infract someone for an opinion, we infract the tone used not the content.

So please consider changing your posting style, if you feel that a user is condescendent with you then use the report post button but don't answer the same way.

Regards

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

As the public face of ubuntu I firstly don't appreciate the cold attitude of this staff member, in this case I don't even know what I have done wrong, first the staff member removes a post I made (i presume it was complained about) and tells me I have an infraction (I assumed that the post was the basis for it). If the post that was removed because it was complained about a close look at the thread itself would reveal that the user who complained was abusing the forum rules for his/her own end. I mean people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones etc etc. However after pointing out to STAFF MEMBER frodon that both posters were as bad as each other he changes the reason for my infraction to the report button being used against by many users, thats the first I have heard about it, if users are reporting another users posts aren't admin supposed to act on it rather than wait for some paltry comments in some thread?

So again I ask Frodon, what was the reason for the post being moved? condescension? overall tone? content?

Again I am confused, staff member frodon isn't interested in the content of posts, in which case how could condescension ever been seen? you need content to have condescension, but that doesnt appear to matter to this staff member. He/she is only interest in the surface tone.


This seems to be a less than acceptable attitude for the public face of ubuntu, if the administrators see problems in such a one dimensional manner, how will the support be if I decide to pay for it?
I originally came here to get help using a new system I knew nothing about, nobody responded to my questions, the problems I had with ubuntu were not solved here. Staff member Frodon claims to have looked at my post history, and yes, I'm sure there are some smart alec comments, look at the threads theyre in, OS bashing threads, religion threads that have been merged because theyre pointless, but content doesnt matter, nor does context, only general tone. I guess the threads where I have tried to offer what little help I can to people were not even registered by staff member Frodon. It must be that content doesnt matter, I really don't know.


I cannot understand this subjective application of forum rules and one dimensional attitiude from the staff member involved. I was polite and straightforward and basically get a " whatever I'm not interested" not good administrative technique in my opinion, but that counts for nothing.

I mean the comment aimed at half the world in this thread

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=594852

isn't worth an infraction, why is my comment worth one? or was it the comment, or the tone, or the multiple complaints that were never mentioned until I responded to something else?

Finally if STAFF MEMBER Frodon actually DID care about content and looked at both sides of the story and both partie's posting history he would have seen that user Chrisj303 had been quote nasty himself in other threads, even to the extent of advocating piracy!

So please, if at all possible, if I decide to pay for support for my new OS will it be in the same vein as the administration I have received in this forum or will it be professional?

Thanks and sorry for the long winded post.

matthew
November 8th, 2007, 12:02 AM
I already answered part of your question here (http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=3726420&postcount=4). To reiterate, I said
I read the post and the thread in question. You received a one point infraction that does not limit your ability to access or use these forums in any way. You received it justly based on your post, and your posting style in general. It was given as a warning accompanied by a request to modify your posting style. That is reasonable.

Whether or not anyone else received infractions is immaterial. You deserved what you received and the infraction will remain until it expires. Sorry you felt it was harsh. I think it was pretty lenient--I mean, it was one lousy point that expires after a short time and it didn't actually affect your account in any way.On that basis, I am not going to comment on other posts in that thread or elsewhere in the forums and whether they are worthy of infractions or not.

Next issue: being condescending vs being patronizing. Trying to say one is allowed and the other is not is splitting hairs. We are less concerned with the potential differences between the two terms and their definitions and much more concerned with the general attitude they each encompass. Talking down to people is disrespectful. I'm not willing to play with definitions on this. I think everyone reading the Forums Code of Conduct (http://ubuntuforums.org/index.php?page=policy) is capable of understanding the actual intent of the statement. If a person wants to argue against the rules based on definitions of terms, the actual intent and meaning has already been lost. Let's review the first rule in the list...
Be respectful of all users at all times. This means please use etiquette and politeness. Treat people with kindness and gentleness. If you do this the rest of the code of conduct won't need more than a cursory mention.So, was that rule broken? Yep. Is my judgment subjective? Yep. Whose isn't? Would the average forums user agree with my judgment? Most likely. I have no interest in polling them, though, that would just be another distraction from the real issue at hand, just like an argument about definitions.

Now, on to frodon and his comments. I think he was clear and responded appropriately. Now, English is not his native language, so there may have been some awkwardness in his manner of expressing his thoughts.

First, he politely asked you to please modify your posting style to use a voice that was more in line with the Forums Code of Conduct.

When he said he wasn't concerned with the content of your posts, what he was saying is that you are free to hold and to express your opinions freely. What concerned him (and me) was the manner in which you chose to express your opinions, both in that thread and at other moments in your posting history.

The infraction you were issued was more of a warning, "Hey, wake up! Your posting style is offensive to users. Your posts have been reported. Please adjust as needed."

We have over 400,000 users in these forums with more than 3.7 million posts. There is no way for every post to be reviewed by staff for content or tone. However, we take post reports very seriously. When a user takes the time to report a post because they felt it was inappropriate for these forums, we always investigate. Guess what? That is how we discovered your post and why we investigated your posting history.

Finally, he tells you that if someone posts something offensive in a thread, that it would be far better if you would use the report post feature and let staff deal with the issue instead of posting a response in the thread. This helps prevent big arguments and bad feelings in the forums. He was not telling you not to participate in the forums, but merely not to engage in petty bickering or answering rude comments and so on.

I hope that helps.

inversekinetix
November 8th, 2007, 01:18 AM
Well Matthew, I expected nothing less than the response I got from you. As you say rules are rules and regardless of context, situation, language ability and a plethora of other variables it is the rules which must be upheld at all costs above all else. As you rightly said semantics can be manipulated, just like rules, to ones own end, again this is something which must be ignored in the upholding of steadfast rules. Provocation and condescension are negated by the courtesy rule, that too I understand now. So in a courteous manner let me ask:

1. Anything I find offensive / in breach of the CoC should be reported here or should I just click the report post button?

2. If I find more posts concerning piracy/illegal activities should I report them here or to the relevent authorities?

3. If I should, by mistake or ignorance of some rule, need to be contacted by an admin could I please have a native English or Japanese speaker contact me so I will make no mistake about the tone/expression of their language. ( no offence intended by that, I know, from experience how easy it is to be misunderstood when speaking a second language).

4. How long does the infraction last? I cannot ascertain the details from

"This infraction is worth 1 point(s) and may result in restricted access until it expires. Serious infractions will never expire."

Regards,

IK

matthew
November 8th, 2007, 09:50 AM
1. Anything I find offensive / in breach of the CoC should be reported here or should I just click the report post button?Please click the report post button. It will be seen more quickly that way by someone who can investigate.


2. If I find more posts concerning piracy/illegal activities should I report them here or to the relevent authorities?Use the report post button. We deal with that just as quickly.


3. If I should, by mistake or ignorance of some rule, need to be contacted by an admin could I please have a native English or Japanese speaker contact me so I will make no mistake about the tone/expression of their language. ( no offence intended by that, I know, from experience how easy it is to be misunderstood when speaking a second language).I can't guarantee that. We are an international forum with staff from all over the world. We do our best, but sometimes things aren't expressed quite as well as we might hope. The majority of the time our staff do an excellent job of being clear and polite. Sometimes we are a little less than perfect. :(


4. How long does the infraction last? I cannot ascertain the details from

"This infraction is worth 1 point(s) and may result in restricted access until it expires. Serious infractions will never expire."
Any infractions you have received are visible on your profile page (http://ubuntuforums.org/member.php?u=403217). They are only visible to staff and the recipient as far as I know. Your current one expires on Nov. 16th at 10:40 a.m. server time.

inversekinetix
November 8th, 2007, 10:33 AM
Cheers, have a nice day.

Matter closed.



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