Thinkin of getting a MacBook or an iMac.

[Cee415]

For those people who have Mac. How does Mac OS feel from Windows OS? and from what I'm hearing, its not easy for a Mac to catch viruses like Linux. Is this true?


thanks, Cee

[iPower]

you'll have to install the malware (and use your password for root) :)

[Chrisj303]

At present there are no mac viruses "in the wild"...


In reality, your are much more likely to have problems with osx anti virus software, than you are with actual viruses.

[adam.tropics]

At present there are no mac viruses "in the wild"...
...

I beg to differ!! (http://macnewsblog.com/2007/10/warning-mac-trojan-horse-found.html)


But even still, not exactly an epidemic yet!

[Erunno]

This is an Ubuntu forum so I really don't know why you are expecting to get a balanced view on Mac OS X and Windows as most participants seem to be ardent Linux users.

I've been using Mac OS X 10.5 for a couple of days now and and so far I'm very impressed. It's the fastest booting OS I know (and shutdown takes less than 10 seconds on a Core Duo with 1 GB RAM), it looks gorgeous with a lot of attention to small details (for instance a lot of unobstrusive animations), the applications are tightly integrated with each other and the interface is *mostly* very uniform (with some exceptions like iTunes which uses different scrollbars and doesn't feature instant apply in the settings). I've been using it mostly for basic activities like internet, listening to music and watching movies so I can't comment on more advanced activities right now. There are also some very neat third party applications like Quicksilver (an appliction and document launcher, slightly similar to Katapult).

Some downsides are the crippled Quicktime player, no availability of Java 6, Safari doesn't really do any ad-blocking and the Adblock plugin I've found doesn't seem to work with Leopard. I'm also disappointed with Spaces (the virtual desktop implementation) as it doesn't behave like I'm used from Linux (for instance, I only want to see the applications of the active desktop when alt-tabbing) and I haven't yet found a way to configure it to my liking.

As I said, I've only used 10.5 for a short time so my impressions are rather shallow for the time being.

[Erunno]

I beg to differ!! (http://macnewsblog.com/2007/10/warning-mac-trojan-horse-found.html)


But even still, not exactly an epidemic yet!

Plus, the trojan requires administrative rights and in theory users should be suspicious when an applications asks to enter the administrator password to elevate its rights.

[adam.tropics]

Plus, the trojan requires administrative rights and in theory users should be suspicious when an applications asks to enter the administrator password to elevate its rights.

In theory you are right. In practice, I imagine, not so much. Truth is that both Mac and Linux users run the risk of being so casual about security stuff, that if (and no, I don't expect it anytime soon) the worst ever becomes a problem, I really think many of us, me included, will be caught off guard.

[FG123]

I've been using 10.4.8 for a while on my... *cough*... PC, and it's interesting. Definately a lot different to how I'm used to operating, that's for sure. From the keyboard shortcuts to the method of installing applications, etc. Then again, it is pretty slick for a UNIX-based mainstream OS.

[n3tfury]

In theory you are right. In practice, I imagine, not so much. Truth is that both Mac and Linux users run the risk of being so casual about security stuff, that if (and no, I don't expect it anytime soon) the worst ever becomes a problem, I really think many of us, me included, will be caught off guard.

thank you. finally someone that's thinking straight without blinders.

[Dixon Bainbridge]

A computer is only as secure as its user or Admin.

The platform you use is irrelevant.

[stimpack]

Macs are ok, I have a Macbook as a no-fuss laptop. Bear in mind, Apple have gone very heavy into simplicity, this can be annoying with things like Finder because it is now so gimped.

The drag and drop method of installing is *very* nice, this is how it should be on any OS. You may have to sudo the copy operation into your Apps dir, but at least you are not granting sudo to some install script that could be doing anything. Your apps are also basically just a directory, that you can place anywhere, move anywhere and at any time.

[n3tfury]

A computer is only as secure as its user or Admin.

The platform you use is irrelevant.

"I" know that, but tell the masses around here that when it comes to a windows box. i hear all these horror stories, but i've never had such issues on my boxes and still don't.

[cogitordi]

For those people who have Mac. How does Mac OS feel from Windows OS?

It looks much nicer and the UI's behaviour feels "unified", in contrast to Windows and any open-source window manager that I've seen.

OS X is limited in how you can change the appearance. Windows XP is more customizable. The most customizable OS of those we discuss here is Linux. The fact that you can add Compiz effects to your Ubuntu installation with a preference setting is remarkable.

Personally, I find that the more practical Compiz effects make Linux more "productive" than OS X and Windows.

and from what I'm hearing, its not easy for a Mac to catch viruses like Linux. Is this true?

Yes, it's true, but let's be careful about our understanding. OS X has a good infrastructure for resisting viruses ("unapproved operations") and Applescript doesn't offer the same exploitability as "VB" on Windows. Microsoft has made many serious mistakes and is still paying for them. But no OS is impervious and there are people all over the world who are interested in finding exploits in the tools that people use. It's true to say that OS X is a safer environment for now and so is Linux.

[Chrisj303]

I beg to differ!! (http://macnewsblog.com/2007/10/warning-mac-trojan-horse-found.html)


But even still, not exactly an epidemic yet!


Are you having a laugh!

To get that virus, you have to download it. Mount the disc image, run it's installer then enter your root password!

Is that a virus? - or just a very **** application?!



Both the Macbook and iMac's are very nice machines. I own both a Macbook and love it! They are extremely robust littles buggers, and really portable - I used to carry mine around in my backpack as if it was, as the name implies - a book. Very powerful as well (Macbook is now 2.2Ghz C2D Santa Rosa)..

Compared to windows, OSX feels so much nicer to use . When I am using XP I have absolutely NO confidence in it at all - with even the most basic of exercises, such as burning a disc or sending an Email.

OSX is MUCH more reliable, stable and consistent. It also has much more tighter integration between it's applications.

And remember if you get a Mac, you can still install windows (and Linux) side-by-side OSX - if you absolutely have to. Using Parallels you can even boot up your windows/Linux partition from within OSX.

[JetskiDude911]

I switched to a Mac about a year and a half ago. I love it. I was getting tired of all the problems with Windows XP. I was really good with XP, but it just never seemed to work right for me. At one point, I had switched over to Linux just to get away from it. I ran Linux for about a year, but then I decided to build a gaming machine and I went back to Windows XP. I didn't have any problems then because all I did was game. I didn't surf the net or do anything else. If I had to do something for school, I made it a point to do it at school. I never got a virus, but the constant need to maintain the operating system is what really got to me. XP would be running great one day, then the next it would be slow. At that point I had to spend hours trying to figure out what was wrong with it.

OS X isn't a lot like Windows, but it's pretty simple to figure out. The interface in Tiger was wonderful (to me it was anyway, I know a lot of people had problems with it). Leopard is better, and is beautiful. Sometimes when I use XP or Vista I got back to OS X and it just hits me at how different the interfaces are.

[gn2]

From a value for money standpoint, Mac products should be avoided.

In the UK the cheapest Macbook is £700 and doesn't even have a DVD burner.
Better spec laptops can be bought for under half that price.

A Mac Mini is £400 and also doesn't have a DVD writer, it's £150 more than a higher spec alternative.

No matter what Apple product you look at there's always a cheaper and better alternative available.

Of course if you want to be trendy there's always a price to pay.

[Dimitriid]

Listen to gn2: Macs are nothing but hype. Now if you want smaller toys for that hype factor then go with an iPod or something. A laptop is quite a bit of money and you're basically paying to use a cheap offshot of Unix based systems that is nothing special, at the very least nothing you cannot accomplish with just about any Linux distro nowadays.

Oh and yea if you are a "designer" or some other stuff like that I have no respect for any artist that depend on any specific tool, in fact I wouldn't call you a designer or an artist or a director, I would call you an Adobe product specialist, IT job.

[cogitordi]

A Mac Mini is £400 and also doesn't have a DVD writer, it's £150 more than a higher spec alternative.

Can you provide a link or two for the "higher spec alternative"? Must support Linux. Thanks.

[Dixon Bainbridge]

I use a Macbook, and I have to say its not all that great. You do pay out of your nose for the fact that it is a Mac. You either choose to buy into that or not. I won't be buying another one. Spec for spec, it doesn't measure up. If you absolutely have to have OSX then go for it. If you do heavy design work then PPC Apples are the ones to go for anyway.

I dont think alot of ipods either.

[Patrick-Ruff]

you just have to try it yourself and see if you like it.

I'm using mac os x leopard and I have to say that most everything I disliked about tiger doesn't exist in leopard . . . the finder is way better now . . . everything looks nicer and more complete, it's faster and more stable (if that was even possible.)

so enough with the propaganda . . . I'd buy an iMac if I were you, because macbooks aren't worth the money as they sacrifice a ton of power just for looks and size . . . iMacs are pretty powerful and will give you good service for a long time.

so if you do settle on a mac, get an iMac :P

PS: compiz/beryl would have something on mac os x if it weren't so unstable sometimes . . . the main thign I dislike about the linux gui is the fact that it doesn't seem to flow together, it's like 2 peices . . . gtk+, metacity or beryl/compiz . . . in a few years maybe linux will meet my needs but for the time being I can't stand using the GUI.

[Frak]

If you want and can afford a Mac, buy one, Love 'em. Don't like Apple, but like the Mac's.

[gn2]

Can you provide a link or two for the "higher spec alternative"? Must support Linux. Thanks.

Certainly. But it's not in Canada.....

http://www.ebuyer.com/product/126116
Comes with a keyboard and mouse, Mac Mini doesn't.

Even cheaper, but slightly lower CPU: http://tinyurl.com/2vqlaf

Or self-build with top quality components:
http://www.ebuyer.com/product/130947
http://www.ebuyer.com/product/129895
http://www.ebuyer.com/product/127248
http://www.ebuyer.com/product/66382
http://www.ebuyer.com/product/122660
http://www.ebuyer.com/product/125208

Total £220 with free delivery option.

£180 cheaper than a Mac Mini, with double the hard drive space and a DVD writer.

[cogitordi]

Certainly. But it's not in Canada...

These alternatives are ~much~ larger that the Mini.

I know that AOpen makes a series of Mini-like computers. They (http://minipc.aopen.com/Global/spec.htm) are somewhat cheaper than the Mini from what I see here (http://www.google.com/products?q=aopen+mini+core+2+duo&btnG=Search&show=dd). But if they come with an OS and are not "barebones", they come with MS Windows, so you immediately have some erasing work to do. ;^B

Keyboards and mice are cheap and most people already have their own at this point in computing history anyway.

As for optical drives, that technology is a moving target with factions fighting to supply a "standard". For real value for money, people should buy an external USB or Firewire enclosure and install a $50 DVD writer in it.

[multifaceted]

A computer is only as secure as its user or Admin.

The platform you use is irrelevant.

I couldn't agree more. The few times I did get hit with a viruses in Windows for example, was a result of my own stupidity. Or, by opening and installing something that shouldn't have.

If you pay attention to file extensions and/or suffixes as well as use script blocking, you should be virtually safe from most attacks.

There are virus protection software for Macs even made my Apple... but, unless you spend all day on Myspace and have an obsession with downloading porn, it's pretty unnecessary IMO.

[ticopelp]

I used Macs for about five years. They're very slick, but wildly overpriced. You can make Linux look just as attractive and functional, or more, than OS X, and you don't have to pay big money for software which is freely available on Linux. I'd say save your money and get a machine to put Linux on instead. Just my opinion.

[gn2]

These alternatives are ~much~ larger that the Mini.


Indeed they are which can be a benefit as it allows for fitting additional internal components.

The Mac Mini is the only Mac product I would currently consider buying as it runs very quietly.
But so does a PS3 which has much better functionality if you install Linux.

Pays your money takes your choice.

But keep the money in the pocket regarding Blu-ray or HD-DVD hardware a while yet, two years I reckon till the dust settles.

[cogitordi]

Indeed they are which can be a benefit as it allows for fitting additional internal components..

I'm not a gamer (don't need a supercomputer for a video card) so I connect everything that I need by USB or FW. The size of the Mini (and the AOpen) is a very positive hardware feature. And only Apple and AOpen have got this right.

Note that the AOpen Mini is an imitation... Apple has advanced not just design but engineering as well.


The Mac Mini is the only Mac product I would currently consider buying as it runs very quietly..

The Mini's silence is another very positive hardware feature. And with the Core 2 Duo inside, the Mini is a 64-bit performer. The Mini costs about $650 in Canada today and £399.00 with VAT in Scotland and Territories.

The problem with the iMacs (although they are very nice) is the same problem you find with any LCD over 19": heat!

Running fast, quiet and cool are my criteria. I'll pay more for a box that does it.


But so does a PS3 which has much better functionality if you install Linux..

I could agree, except that... it's Sony. ;^B


But keep the money in the pocket regarding Blu-ray or HD-DVD hardware a while yet, two years I reckon till the dust settles.

I won't be joining that parade. I back up onto external USB hard disks and then shut them down and put them away. Nothing cheaper and faster.

[boast]

I just got my macbook last week. A bit of getting used to, but it's alright. It is not my main rig, so I only use for web surfing.

I would of gone with a thinkpad, but I didn't want the hastle of trying to get the laptop acpi/power saving features/slow boot/hibernation working under linux- and I didn't want to worry about firewalls and antivirus with windows. So a macbook was the only other option.


But so does a PS3 which has much better functionality if you install Linux.

Except 3D Acceleration

[aysiu]

This is an Ubuntu forum so I really don't know why you are expecting to get a balanced view on Mac OS X and Windows as most participants seem to be ardent Linux users. Actually, we're probably the most unbiased forum you could go to about this.

Where else would you go? A Mac forum? Or a Windows forum?

Here we have many people (including the forum owner, Ubuntu-Geek) who use and like Mac OS X. We have a lot of users who do not use Mac OS X but try to make their Ubuntu installations look like OS X. On the other hand, we also have a lot of people, as you can see from some of the responses to this thread, that believe Mac or overpriced or overhyped.

It's pretty balanced here.

That said, I think it greatly depends on your computing needs and desires.

My wife depends on Adobe products to make her living as a graphic designer. She also happens to like how pretty Macs look. And even though she doesn't find the interface intuitive, she's gotten used to it. I would never try to convince her to use anything other than a Mac.

I do only basic computing functions--email, web browsing, minimal web design, photo and music management, the odd word processed document or simple spreadsheet. I like reliable and free products, and I don't pirate software. So I'm the ideal desktop Linux user. Trying to convince me to use Windows or Mac at home would be futile.

We have a good friend who uses Windows. Even though Windows constantly gives her headaches, she still thinks she needs it, and there's nothing you can do to convince her she'd be happier with Linux or Mac. She likes being part of the majority and knowing she gets full support for software and hardware from third-party vendors. She uses Hotmail, which integrates a lot better with Outlook than with Thunderbird, Evolution, or Mail. Yes, there are hacks and plugins, but she doesn't want a hack or plugin. She wants full support. Windows, in that sense, is ideal for her.

If you have enough money to buy a Mac and think Macs look cool and do what you want, get a Mac. If you are too cheap to buy a Mac, but you don't mind having to install and configure the OS yourself and don't have specialized computing needs, stick with Ubuntu.

[Erunno]

Where else would you go? A Mac forum? Or a Windows forum?

Granted, I might have overly generalising the local population but I'd be at least hesitant to go to a forum which is dedicated to a competing product as judging from my experiences many people will protect their choice of a certain product by trying to devalue the alternatives and thus painting a very unbalanced picture. Actually if I had no choice to form an opinion of my own by using the potential purchase myself I'd go to all of the forums you've mentioned (i.e. Linux, Mac and Windows forum) in the hope that each userbase will concentrate and different advantages and disadvantages of their product of choice and the competitions in order to form a more or less balanced view.

[gn2]

Except 3D Acceleration

That may change over time.

[shearn89]

I beg to differ!! (http://macnewsblog.com/2007/10/warning-mac-trojan-horse-found.html)


But even still, not exactly an epidemic yet!

I think i read the same story on slashdot, and there was this whole flame war (kind of) in the comments about mac fan-boys saying they were invulnerable, and windows users laughing in their face.

Was going to post something about mounting/approving, but already been said.

Hardly automatic installation, and not really a virus. More like (as i think someone on /. said) sending Troy a blueprint for the horse, and asking them to build it and send it back outside...


My friend is a DJ, and uses his laptop mostly for Music, and some web surfing. He started on windows, but switched to a mac for stability, and speed (when all you use is Serato, they're fast). I think he was looking to get a new laptop sometime recently, and was debating between an alienware or a new mac. Not sure what he went with.
Me, when i build my gaming rig (sometime in the future) i plan to dual boot: Windows and Ubuntu. Ubuntu for all the normal stuff, Windows for gaming (directx 10) and iTunes Music Store - no linux version atm. And they still have one of the best music ranges.

As long as you're careful with windows, you don't have to worry too much about viruses and the like - i've only ever had one virus on my comps, and that was because i was trying to clean a friends computer of a major infection, and a virus wormed its way onto my RAM pen. Then when i tried to format the pen, it hopped its evil way into my hard drive...

For me, i couldn't stand not having a right mouse button without having to buy another mouse.

[Chrisj303]

My friend is a DJ, and uses his laptop mostly for Music, and some web surfing. He started on windows, but switched to a mac for stability, and speed (when all you use is Serato, they're fast)



I use my Macs for Music - and a bit of video editing. For these purposes they are (for me) unparalleled.

The Logic Studio - Ableton Live 6 - Reason 4 combo is something that just can't be attained with any other OS.

I have yet to find anything on the Linux platform that gets close to Final Cut either.

And as for the Apple 'premium' well, yeah, Macs are'nt cheap - they don't make crappy machines. But I really don't care! I wouldn't swap my Macbook Pro for ANY other laptop on the market, not a chance.

Open-source fanatics can bitch and **** about Apple 'till their blue in the face, but it isn't going to change a thing - Apple are in it for the long haul.

[Frak]

That may change over time.
Especially since OSS ATi drivers are being released.

Also, 3D Acceleration can be reached via emulation thanks to the imense processing power.

[cyclefiend2000]

i am a long time windows user. last year i bought a used ibook off ebay. i love it.

for my work, i probably wont be able to use anything except for windows (at least for the foreseeable future). however, at home i am using kubuntu on my desktop and os x on my ibook.

my wife and i both got laptops at the same time. i got a refurb. ibook G3. she got a new dell ($700 price range) running winodws xp media center. while my ibook doesnt have a dvd burner like her dell, it out performs her dell in every other aspect. boot time, battery life, wireless network connectivity, etc.

i think the imacs are overpriced, but i wouldnt hesitate to get another apple laptop.

[Atomic Dog]

I use an iMac at work, a HP laptop with ubuntu installed, and a windows box at work and at home. (actually I have all 3 running at my desk at work).

Anyway, I setup the macbooks for our project directors that elect to use a mac. We install a windows VM so they can use the applications we have to use at work -which is rather silly because all the security the mac offers is out the window when a win vm is being used 95% of the time.

We buy the middle of the road macbooks. It's a tad expensive, but I find the build quality to be quite high, and the processor to be tip-top. For a business/mobile notebook its quite nice, very thin, and very portable. The macbook will run Ubuntu perfectly except for a couple little things that need a little attention to get working. I will very likely buy a macbook for the hardware/build quality.

OSx on the other hand is not for me. In 2 years I have not grown to "love" it. In fact, I hate it more now than ever. I don't like the way the mouse moves, I don't like the little pauses/slowness I get with it, I don't like my choice of applications available for the mac, I don't like the dock, I don't like that I have to open finder to open an application. But I will say that some people seem to love it.

If and when I get a macbook it will have linux installed on it immediately. So if you do get a macbook, it will be a nice piece if hardware. And if you do not like OSx for some reason you do have an alternative.

[cogitordi]

As long as you're careful with windows, you don't have to worry too much about viruses and the like -.

Sounds good, until...


i've only ever had one virus on my comps, and that was because i was trying to clean a friends computer of a major infection, and a virus wormed its way onto my RAM pen. Then when i tried to format the pen, it hopped its evil way into my hard drive...

Your friend couldn't handle the infection and neither could you at first, and you were just trying to help.

Viruses, Windows Genuine Disadvantage, constant security updates... My time is valuable and I'm not going to waste any more of it suffering for Redmond's flagrant design mistakes. I used to work for a large software company and we regularly lost time because of viruses. If I lose just one day a year to virus problems it's too much. There's no excuse - Microsoft is supposed to be a professional, enterprise software shop.

Fortunately, I have had zero downtime to viruses at home in the past seven years since I have been using *NIX and OS X.


For me, i couldn't stand not having a right mouse button without having to buy another mouse.

Mice are cheap. However, I do agree with you that it's stupid to sell one-button mice. OS X has a right-click pop up menu for everything. Everyone I know who uses a Mac is using a two-button mouse.

[cyclefiend2000]

Mice are cheap. However, I do agree with you that it's stupid to sell one-button mice. OS X has a right-click pop up menu for everything. Everyone I know who uses a Mac is using a two-button mouse.

for production use, i would want a 2 or 3 button mouse. however, for at home use, i have gotten used to just the one button on my laptop. for the context menu, just use ctrl+button. i do miss the middle button when using firefox though.

[Frak]

Mice are cheap. However, I do agree with you that it's stupid to sell one-button mice. OS X has a right-click pop up menu for everything. Everyone I know who uses a Mac is using a two-button mouse.

When I bought a Macbook, I got a wireless Mighty Mouse with it. The MM is a 5 button mouse.
When I bought iMacs, they all came with the MM, it is a 5 button mouse.

[Chrisj303]

We buy the middle of the road macbooks. It's a tad expensive, but I find the build quality to be quite high, and the processor to be tip-top. For a business/mobile notebook its quite nice, very thin, and very portable.


Very true! - The build quality of the Macbook is very high. They are robust little buggers, and can take a lot of abuse.

They are also very powerful to. Granted, the integrated Video card isn't up to much, but as long as high-end video editing/Games isn't on your agenda, then the Macbooks make a great choice of laptop.

[shearn89]

I think for gaming, windows still has the lead, mostly because the games are all desgined for pc. You can run things under wine, but its still very hard. And (in my opinion) iTunes is still the best media player on the market.

[cogitordi]

When I bought a Macbook, I got a wireless Mighty Mouse with it. The MM is a 5 button mouse.
When I bought iMacs, they all came with the MM, it is a 5 button mouse.

Thanks for making me learn something. The Mighty Mouse (which I have never used) does in fact have a left and a right click, but it's done using touch-detection on the surface of the mouse. It doesn't have left and right buttons.

http://www.apple.com/mightymouse/

Nice feature. Probably better ergonomically too.

[Frak]

Thanks for making me learn something. The Mighty Mouse (which I have never used) does in fact have a left and a right click, but it's done using touch-detection on the surface of the mouse. It doesn't have left and right buttons.

http://www.apple.com/mightymouse/

Nice feature. Probably better ergonomically too.
When inside OS X, the mouse is considered 4 button (First, Second, Ball, Squeeze)
Inside Windows, the mouse is considered 5 button (First, Second, Ball, Sqeeze left, Sqeeze right)