Request for subforums within Absolute Beginner

[jingo811]

Hanging around these forums for over a 1 year now, learning how to troubleshoot all sorts of stuff has made me more confident with IT and technology in general. And the Ubuntuforums has practically become my second home.
Since it wasn't too long ago when I still was a Newbie trying to make my dream come true. That is break free from Windows :^o .....well not entirely free yet, but I'm no longer depending on Windows as ages ago. Being in between the state of Newbie and Intermediate Linux user I still have strong memories and emotions from the time when I struggled to make the Windows-->Ubuntu transition work properly as a total Newbie.

That is why I want to help future newcoming Noobs and Newbies that decides to go on this Linux adventure trek. To go through the motions 10 times quicker than it took me coming to goal.
To do that I think the ( Absolute Beginner Talk ) section should be organized and divided into 3 sections.

Level 1
Where the Level 1 user is somebody using Windows 98/XP doesn't know how to partition and how to tinker with the PC. Think of them as a 5 year old or a 60 year old person that hasn't been around PCs and Internet long enough.
These people might have heard about Linux:Ubuntu by ear and now wants to find out what it is.
That's what this Beginner section should take care of ppl with that kind of WHAT IF and WILL IT WORK on Linux questions know what I mean?!

Level 2
Beside the Lvl 1 section to the right we have the second section. This is the place where ppl have decided to finally make the jump from the bridge. This forum level should take care of HANDS-ON questions like Dual Booting, practical preparations, what Windows programs/games will and will not work at all in Linux:*Distros*. At this point a Windows defect should know all that he/she is gaining and all that they are giving up by doing a Linux only install.
This level forum should be dedicated entirely for partitioning and First time installations questions ONLY!!

Level 3
Is the rightmost and last Beginner section. A section dedicated for ppl that has already overcome the hardware part of the installation. They can use the mouse to navigate all they want so these ppl aren't as Stressed as the Level 2 user. This is the post-install section. For ppl like me Intermediate Linux users wanting the friggin codec to work so I can listen to my midis and watch vids in various formats.

By dividing the Beginner section in this way the RIGHT kind of information keeps coming back for the user when they read what problems other ppl in the same situation are facing. Thus making things easier for the total Noob or Newbie to see the overall picture of what they're doing.
That means the Newbie isn't overwhelmed by the HUGE amount of information overload they're faced with first time they visit the Beginner thread. The kind of information overload you feel when you read my suggestion post just right now :-& :mrgreen:
That means you should divide your stickys to the proper Levels and NOT put everything into one bag!

[aysiu]

This is one of those suggestions that sounds good in theory, but beginners of levels 1, 2, or 3 are unlikely to bother finding out which is the "correct" section to post in and will probably just post in level 1, regardless.

Honestly, I'm invested in these forums and barely had the patience to read through all your descriptions of the different levels. Most beginners just want their problems solved. They see Absolute Beginner and post there. They're not going to want to read long descriptions about what these different levels are.

I also think a lot of users who are facing installation problems do not bother reading other people's problems in the same forum. They have threads dedicated to their unique situations. Why would they explore other similar threads unless they're unusually self-motivated individuals?

[jingo811]

Well then long story short. A good story always have a Beginning, a Middle and an End. That level division thing I did was just for fun for my own amusement. As things are now the Absolute Beginner Talk only has a never ending ...........Middle..............

If their would be a more clear cut Beginning then I think Ubuntu would attract more Windows converters much more faster and efficiently. As of now it requires quite some dedication and time from the user in order for them to make that Linux transition.

If the Middle part of Beginners section would be as I suggested consist of ONLY Dual-booting, partitioning, Grub, FAT/NTFS mounting, fstab, BIOS questions and such relevant FAQs/Guides/Tutorials. That would make things much more efficient and smoother for the Newbie Linux user attempting their First Linux Installation. Even if the newbies usually don't bother reading other ppls problems putting all thess Pre-Install FAQs and Guides in one certain section would along with human support make a powerful combination!

Well to make my short story not long I guess I'm gonna stop here and not tell the End yet.
Beginning = General questions about the differences, pros and cons between Win XP and Linux (Pre-Install)
Middle = Practical Linux Installation issues. (practical Installation)
End = Networking, Internet, Media, luxury issues. (Post-Install)

[jingo811]

Ignore all my above older posts!
I'm starting new questions below.
So I basically still thinks the * Absolute Beginners Section * should be separated into different sections depending on which stage of the Linux installation process a newbie is in!
For example:

Absolute Beginner Talk - ( headline )

0. Windows / Mac tourists QUESTIONS - ( sub forum )

1. Partitions and Ubuntu installations QUESTIONS - ( sub forum )

2. Fixing general internal components/devices QUESTIONS - ( sub forum )

3. Fixing general external devices QUESTIONS - ( sub forum )

........3.1 Wireless Networking - ( linked to the Main Support Categories sub forums )
........3.2 Printers - ( linked to the Main Support Categories sub forums )
........3.3 Scanners - ( linked to the Main Support Categories sub forums )
........3.4 Cameras - ( linked to the Main Support Categories sub forums )

etc. etc.

4. Media and Luxury QUESTIONS - ( sub forum )

You link the sub forums in step 3 because you don't want to clutter up the Absolute Beginner Talk with too much folders and information overload tutorials. Too much folders confuses newbies!

[LaRoza]

0. Other OS Talk
1. Installations and Upgrades
2. General Help
3. Hardware and Laptops
4. Multimedia Production


These forums already exist.

Making too many levels makes the forums unusable and less active.

[jingo811]

0. Other OS Talk
1. Installations and Upgrades
2. General Help
3. Hardware and Laptops
4. Multimedia Production


These forums already exist.

Making too many levels makes the forums unusable and less active.

Yeah they sure exists along with 50 or so other forums and subforums. Scattered all over the place. I don't think a newbie have the time and patience to sort those 50 forums out when they try and istall Linux for the very first time.
You need to focus those mentioned sub forums and bring them together in the Beginners sections either directly or by linking.
That way a newbie will have a sense of order to follow. Not scan through 50 or so subforums then post and wait and wait, and end up posting in the Absolute Beginner forum anyways at the end of the day.

I don't think a Windows / Mac tourist posts their Linux hate threads in Other OS Talk when they are steaming they just post them at the top most forum
Absolute Beginner Talk
and flood it uneccessarily disturing all the other serious questions that ppl make.


Making too many levels makes the forums unusable and less active.
There's already too many subforums and folders we need to bring some together and then in the darkness bind them.....mmkay.

[LaRoza]

Yeah they sure exists along with 50 or so other forums and subforums. Scattered all over the place. I don't think a newbie have the time and patience to sort those 50 forums out when they try and istall Linux for the very first time.
You need to focus those mentioned sub forums and bring them together in the Beginners sections either directly or by linking.


So you are suggesting a deeper hierarchy? That is more confusing. Maybe an icon as to the posts contents, or a [subject] in the title.

[jingo811]

So you are suggesting a deeper hierarchy? That is more confusing.
I don't know what you mean with deeper hierarchy. I'm saying use what sub forums already exists and re-arrange them so that the most relevant subforums is enclosed in the
Absolute Beginner Talk colored "Bubble". And number them so that they follow proper troubleshooting stations.

No adding of forums, more like re-arranginge of forums. And preferably deleting of forums to make it less cluttered.
Think of us dyslectic ppl who gets confused and disoriented easily when the FIRST page forum is like looking in a phone book nothing but text scattered all over. Except this is a phone book with no order. Make some order to the forum folders.
http://www.answers.com/topic/dyslexia?cat=health

[julian67]

I don't know what you mean with deeper hierarchy. I'm saying use what sub forums already exists and re-arrange them so that the most relevant subforums is enclosed in the
Absolute Beginner Talk colored "Bubble". And number them so that they follow proper troubleshooting stations.

No adding of forums, more like re-arranginge of forums. And preferably deleting of forums to make it less cluttered.
Think of us dyslectic ppl who gets confused and disoriented easily when the FIRST page forum is like looking in a phone book nothing but text scattered all over. Except this is a phone book with no order. Make some order to the forum folders.
http://www.answers.com/topic/dyslexia?cat=health

When you arrive at Ubuntu forums the Absolute Beginner section is the first one listed and is also highlighted. If you have even basic English language ability it is hard to miss. I can't see how you could
use what sub forums already exists and re-arrange them so that the most relevant subforums is enclosed in the
Absolute Beginner Talk colored "Bubble" without excluding from those sub forums everyone who doesn't consider themselves an absolute beginner. Really it isn't workable. It looks to me like a solution in search of a problem.

[jingo811]

When you arrive at Ubuntu forums the Absolute Beginner section is the first one listed and is also highlighted. If you have even basic English language ability it is hard to miss. I can't see how you could

And I'm trying to POINT out once again for the 4th time. That this one and only not so hard to miss forum technically contains all these 5 separated sub-forums scattered unorderly all over the page.
How things are now is that it's all mixed and blended in one big pot this "not so hard to miss if you can read basic English" link called Absolute Beginner Section.

0. Other OS Talk
1. Installations and Upgrades
2. General Help
3. Hardware and Laptops
4. Multimedia Production

This Absolute Beginner Section is like a hard drive with no partition. Everything is just crammed into one big partition. Newbies rarely visit all those sub-forums located outside the marked and colored Absolute Beginner bubble that you see at the very top.

That means resources has been unesseccary divided when you could do 10 times the work for the same effort if you focus the sub-folders for the newbies. Not having them look up this big 50 folders unordered *phone book*.
It should be something like this that I suggested from the beginning.

0. Windows / Mac tourists
1. Partitions and Ubuntu installations
2. Fixing general internal components/devices
3. Fixing general external devices
4. Media and Luxury





without excluding from those sub forums everyone who doesn't consider themselves an absolute beginner. Really it isn't workable. It looks to me like a solution in search of a problem.

I don't understand this question or argument. Can you please re-formulate so I understand what problem you're trying to point out here?

[julian67]

And I'm trying to POINT out once again for the 4th time. That this one and only not so hard to miss forum technically contains all these 5 separated sub-forums scattered unorderly all over the page.
How things are now is that it's all mixed and blended in one big pot this "not so hard to miss if you can read basic English" link called Absolute Beginner Section.

0. Other OS Talk
1. Installations and Upgrades
2. General Help
3. Hardware and Laptops
4. Multimedia Production


Ok but your proposition was as clear as mud....which is how clear a sub-divided Absolute Beginners section will seem to an absolute beginner ;-) An absolute beginner is by definition unlikely to be able to closely define what the problem is or even identify it all that well.

So I'm new, I somehow got Ubuntu onto my laptop, I tried to upgrade some stuff related to multimedia production and I ran into what i believe to be a series of general problems which someone told me might be hardware related. Yup, I'll post the cry for help in every category!

I think you have to give new users a break and make no assumptions about their knowledge, diagnostic skills or even likelihood of choosing the "obvious" option that's right under their nose when they are stressed out with their computer not behaving and just desperate to get some help.

[jingo811]

0. Windows / Mac tourists
1. Partitions and Ubuntu installations
2. Fixing general internal components/devices
3. Fixing general external devices
4. Media and Luxury


0.
I'm trying to say that when Windows or Mac users make questions about will this or that program work on Ubuntu their should be a section for that labeled number ZERO with a collection/archive of post and threads dealing only with this kind of questions.
Then they will have no problem finding such answers to their questions.
( Now you have separated 1/5 th of the soup from the pot. )

1.
Most ppl going from Windows or Mac will have to deal with Partitions they might now know what the word partition mean. But they sure will recognize the words "Ubuntu installations" no matter how stressed out they are or don't have sufficient troubleshooting experience.
And ppl with external device problems such as Printers, Scanners, etc. etc. should hopefully keep their posts out of here.
( Now you have separated 2/5 th of the soup from the pot. )

...
...
...
And so on and so forth with Number Labeling for the most general stages that a newbie goes through from start to finish.


The issue isn't just about order and centralizing certain sub-folders. It's about keeping the soup as pure as possible. When things are pure it will be easier for newbies to see what their next move should be.
Right now the pot of soup called "Absolute Beginners Talk" consist of many chefs. Many chefs doesn't make a good soup! mmmkay...



So I'm new, I somehow got Ubuntu onto my laptop, I tried to upgrade some stuff related to multimedia production and I ran into what i believe to be a series of general problems which someone told me might be hardware related. Yup, I'll post the cry for help in every category!
By making the soup purer hopefully the scenario that you described won't happen as exstensive as it is right now. A clear soup should avoid certain Question threads overlapping to several sub-forums.


I think you have to give new users a break and make no assumptions about their knowledge, diagnostic skills or even likelihood of choosing the "obvious" option that's right under their nose when they are stressed out with their computer not behaving and just desperate to get some help.
That's why we the old users need to order things for them so that they can point to us which stages they have been through and failed. Where they should go etc. 5 stages doesn't make the Ubuntuforums.org more complicated than they are now.

[julian67]

imo the Absolute Beginners section is for the benefit of Absolute Beginners (and not those who answer their questions), and what they need is simply an unmissably obvious place to go and get help where pretty much any question can be asked. That the section lacks structure is inevitable and trying to impose a structure on it is futile and counter productive.

[jingo811]

If you guys thinks that's the best way then I guess everything is business as usual then.

[bodhi.zazen]

I think I understand what you are saying, but the problem is to try to organize the chaos it you will.

Many of the sections you propose exist on the forums already and so to some extent what you suggest makes navigation more difficult. Should I post under absolute beginner talk General Help or just General help ? and on.

The other problem is many of the questions on ABT do not fit into your categories. Help with this or that application, help with bash, desktop effects, bugs, configuration, basic programming, security, and on.

I would tend to agree that additional sub forums within absolute beginner talk would make it harder to navigate the forums, duplicate existing sections, and make moderation harder, ie more forums to moderate.

[jingo811]

....
....
The other problem is many of the questions on ABT do not fit into your categories. Help with this or that application, help with bash, desktop effects, bugs, configuration, basic programming, security, and on.
...
...


That would make your question a Level 4 user. Or if you dislike the ideas of user levels, think of it as going to Stage 4 in this whole "car production" process. The only difference is you aren't helping ppl build cars you're helping ppl put up an foreign operating systems that they have never used before Windows.

Stage 4. => Media and Luxury might be a poor label, but I'm sure there's some more fitting title for this kind of Beginners partition.

0. Windows / Mac tourists
1. Partitions and Ubuntu installations
2. Fixing general internal components/devices
3. Fixing general external devices
4. Media and Luxury


Someone who just left Windows and want to install Linux for the first time needs to go through certain stages that needs to be mapped out more clearly. Without giving them a map of where they are and how they should order the process that's chaos.

Thus you have the above partition of the Absolute Beginner Thread. And you no longer will need something called General Talk that tries to address everything between heaven and earth.

Without giving a map it's like telling a newbie. Here go to this spot called ABT and figure out what you will need to do to install Linux. If you have a problem ask anything you want even if you don't know how to ask.
That's how I see the function of the ABT thread today. :-k And I'm trying to tell you guys that's wasting resources that should 've been focused for the newbie from the get go.


PS.
Can't you make a "beta" forum with this suggested layout along with what already exist. By putting that new 5 stage layout at the very end of Ubuntuforums main page?
Where you direct a certain amount of newbies during 2 weeks and see how they respond to it. That way if it fails only those certain newbie people during the 2 weeks testing period will get burned. And you can continue with the old layout like nothing has happened during and after the testing period.

Since it's located at the very end of the page where nobody looks in the first place. Only those that are directed there for testing purposes.

[julian67]

That would make your question a Level 4 user.

That whole idea is unrealistic. What should a new user with a question do? Complete a scientology like questionaire so they know what type of person/level they are and who can help them???


Or if you dislike the ideas of user levels, think of it as going to Stage 4 in this whole "car production" process.

off the scale. nuts. barking. NO!

The only difference is you aren't helping ppl build cars you're helping ppl put up an foreign operating systems that they have never used before Windows.

No, what you are doing is trying to categorise people/problems/users in a way that makes their life harder but reassures you that you can discern some kind of order in the mass of questions. So this is for whose benefit????


Stage 4. => Media and Luxury might be a poor label, but I'm sure there's some more fitting title for this kind of Beginners partition.

0. Windows / Mac tourists
1. Partitions and Ubuntu installations
2. Fixing general internal components/devices
3. Fixing general external devices
4. Media and Luxury


Someone who just left Windows and want to install Linux for the first time needs to go through certain stages that needs to be mapped out more clearly. Without giving them a map of where they are and how they should order the process that's chaos.

I'm detecting a strong aversion to any kind of disorder ;-)


Thus you have the above partition of the Absolute Beginner Thread. And you no longer will need something called General Talk that tries to address everything between heaven and earth.

Without giving a map it's like telling a newbie. Here go to this spot called ABT and figure out what you will need to do to install Linux. If you have a problem ask anything you want even if you don't know how to ask.
That's how I see the function of the ABT thread today. :-k And I'm trying to tell you guys that's wasting resources that should 've been focused for the newbie from the get go.


PS.
Can't you make a "beta" forum with this suggested layout along with what already exist. By putting that new 5 stage layout at the very end of Ubuntuforums main page?
Where you direct a certain amount of newbies during 2 weeks and see how they respond to it. That way if it fails only those certain newbie people during the 2 weeks testing period will get burned. And you can continue with the old layout like nothing has happened during and after the testing period.

Since it's located at the very end of the page where nobody looks in the first place. Only those that are directed there for testing purposes.

yeah let's experiment on some unsuspecting wannabees, omg can I be first????? :lolflag:

Mr Jingo, here is some news: disorder is a natural phenomenon. And sometimes you might perceive disorder where actually there is a loose structure. That loose structure, which exists alongside more rigid structures built by the same people, might even have been intended to be less rigid than its neighbours for very good reasons.

btw my gf is away atm and I'm in desperate need of someone to come in maybe one or two days a week and tidy up my place and generally get the place shipshape. Anyone around here good at this kind of thing?

[jr.gotti]

This would confuse the hell out of me. I think it's dandy the way it is.

[jingo811]

Allrighty then I'm wrong. But don't tell me that I didn't warn you guys in the future.
So I couldn't explain myself with fewer words now you'll just have to get me by reading this bigg *** text instead.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lean_manufacturing

See you on the next train then. (Coz I'm not waiting for nobody anymore) Bye bye! ):P

[BruisedQuasar07]

It would reduce repeated requests for help with problems and
answers to same questions greatly help newbies, if the forum
contained topics, for instance:

"Printing" for printer install, hangups, How To , etc; Topics called
"Ununtu 7.04", "Ubuntu 7.10"; "Xubuntu", etc.

I think such a change could well increase the number of
newbies who stick with Ubuntu as many must see the
beginner forum as extremely time consuming and
chaotic without the organization of posts into
sections or departments.

This would also greatly lighten up on server resource use,
as newbies would not need to resort so much to "searches"

Have you considered advising newbies about using the powerful
Google engine to search the site. Works really well. I search the site
that way.

--Bruised

[LaRoza]

This has come up, http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=352679

[BruisedQuasar07]

I have something far more basic and simple in mind. Newbie or
not has nothing to do with whether the organization I propose will
be used, I've been a member of online forums before there was
an Internet. I know they work. Layers or levels of newbie make no
sense but simple common forum organization makes mucho sense.
I am not being creative here. I propose following a standard that
is traditional and re-proven by every public library, common subject
indexing!

In this case, common forum topic organization. Besides the search
engine cannot handle the chaos, even Google Site Search chokes
on it. What I have in mind is something basic like this:

"Printing', "Scanning", "Unbuntu 7,04", "Installation", "Off Topic",
"Why I am Leaving Linux", etc

--Bruised

[PriceChild]

Isn't that what we have already?

I'm sorry I think I'm missing your proposal here...

[BruisedQuasar07]

If the abosolute beginner forum is divided into topic-forums as I
proposed, please show me how to uncover them. I certainly
do not know everything but I have created and run some forums
in my time but I see no forum divisions WITHIN Absolute Beginner
as I am proposing would help.

A newbie is overwelmed coming here looking for help as there is
no organization, just thousands of threads. It doesn't matter
personally to me (I am full aware that many here would rather
insult a newbie than help them. I've read hundreds of the pleas
for help and the smart acre replies or total no reply at all.)

I have tried this observation out a dozen times before I concluded
I am correct about this one of many examples of the chaos
in Absolute Beginner. A newbie who asks a question early in the AM is
very unlikely to get an intelligent response and highly likely to get
not response at all, ever. I attribute this to the post being buried
under a thousand or more posts before the regular helpful linux
users log on. There are certain days also a newbie can or cannot
get help.

Hey, I've been around too long to argue. Just thought I would try
to offer some constructive criticism.

--Bruised

[PriceChild]

The absolute beginner forum is intended as a "first stop" for any user who needs an answer quickly. We hope they've searched first, but regardless, its meant to be a quick and easy place to post a question. No messing about in having to find the correct subforum. More experienced users will then use the other more specialised subforums.

Personally I'd like to keep things this simple... just my opinion :)

Pricey

[aysiu]

This has come up, http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=352679 I've merged the two threads.
A newbie is overwelmed coming here looking for help as there is
no organization, just thousands of threads. Most new users who post here don't actually look for help. They just post a thread asking for help and then get help. The ones who look for help don't browse through subforums (or, if they do, they're being extremely inefficient). They do Google or forum searches to find the answers they're looking for. A newbie who asks a question early in the AM is
very unlikely to get an intelligent response and highly likely to get
not response at all, ever. I attribute this to the post being buried
under a thousand or more posts before the regular helpful linux
users log on. There are certain days also a newbie can or cannot
get help. Considering this forum is international, I don't know what you mean by "early in the AM." If it's "early in the AM" in Australia, it isn't the same time in North America or Europe or East Asia.

And I think your theory has no support whatsoever. I've seen literally tens of thousands of threads over the past two and a half years. Never have I seen a thread that's easily solved get neglected because it got lost in the shuffle. Threads that don't get solved all come down to one or more of the following: The person with the problem doesn't explain the problem well The problem is unsolvable by the other forum members The person with the problem doesn't follow up with advice given The person with the problem decides to get angry about the problem and bash Linux and its community instead of focusing on solving the problem I regularly go through the unanswered posts usually once to three times a day, and I'm sure I'm not the only forum member who does this. Not once have I ever seen a thread that's older than an hour old have 0 views. In fact, most of the unanswered threads, even the ones with the most obscure problems, have at least six or seven views, if not fifteen or sixteen.

Please, find me all these Absolute Beginner threads that are unanswered and not even viewed because they were posted "early in the AM." I would be very surprised if you could turn up such evidence.

[Frak]

I like the default way, I don't mind people posting in a part of the forum when they could post elsewhere, I'd still help them.

[julian67]

The absolute beginner forum is intended as a "first stop" for any user who needs an answer quickly. We hope they've searched first, but regardless, its meant to be a quick and easy place to post a question. No messing about in having to find the correct subforum. More experienced users will then use the other more specialised subforums.

Personally I'd like to keep things this simple... just my opinion :)

Pricey

It's too simple, too obvious and it works too well. Something must be done.

[LaRoza]

It's too simple, too obvious and it works too well. Something must be done.

Are you in charge of my government?