Gaming on Ubuntu

[gwoodard]

Okay this is a OPINION question: How much money do you think game companies would make off of Ubuntu gamers? (That's if they made their games compatible with Ubuntu, Mac, and Windoze...I mean Windows)

[hikaricore]

The word you were looking for was Linux games.

And given the continued rise in Linux use over the years I would bet companies would atleast break even just from Linux games/ports.

[Colro]

They'd probably barely even come out with a profit. You have to realize that while this community may seem 'large' in your eyes, most statistics show Linux at less then 1% of the desktop market share. I know I'll get flamed for saying it, but the truth is the truth.

That's not to say that some companies aren't willing to try it, though, but it's a risk.

[American_Outcast]

I would buy more games. I all but stopped buying new games unless they can be used on Linux. So most gaming companies have lost business. I know many who just don't buy games anymore unless they are made for Linux.

100 people times 4 games a year times 40 USD for each game equals 16,000 USD a year. And I am more then sure the number is much higher then just 100 people buying four games a year. 1,000 people buying four games a year would increase it to 160,000 USD and so on.

Now if they where to focus on getting those people back, those 100, 1000 or what ever number of people, by creating games for Linux, good games, I am more then sure that there could be a decent profit in it. Especially if they made them for Linux, Mac and Windows. (if not Linux if they made them compatible with Wine/CrossOver then for me that would be just as good.

[King_Critter]

What I wonder is how much it costs to port a game to linux. I wouldn't think it to be too much, but as I've never gotten much past "hello world" in any programming language, I'm probably not the best person to give an estimate. :P

[American_Outcast]

What I wonder is how much it costs to port a game to linux. I wouldn't think it to be too much, but as I've never gotten much past "hello world" in any programming language, I'm probably not the best person to give an estimate. :P

I was wondering that to. I think if they made it work with CrossOver/Wine it would work out better and it may be cheaper (easier?), but I am only guessing on that.

[cogadh]

I would buy more games. I all but stopped buying new games unless they can be used on Linux. So most gaming companies have lost business. I know many who just don't buy games anymore unless they are made for Linux.

100 people times 4 games a year times 40 USD for each game equals 16,000 USD a year. And I am more then sure the number is much higher then just 100 people buying four games a year. 1,000 people buying four games a year would increase it to 160,000 USD and so on.

Now if they where to focus on getting those people back, those 100, 1000 or what ever number of people, by creating games for Linux, good games, I am more then sure that there could be a decent profit in it. Especially if they made them for Linux, Mac and Windows. (if not Linux if they made them compatible with Wine/CrossOver then for me that would be just as good.
Those numbers wouldn't even cover the salaries of the programmers working on the port, not to mention any additional costs, such as distribution, licensing, advertising, etc. Sure, there are most definitely a lot more than just 1000 gamers on Linux, but when you are talking about a business that makes over 9 billion dollars a year, the comparative pocket change that would be produced by the Linux community is not worth the effort. That may change in the future as more people begin to use Linux, but at the moment, it's not gonna happen.

Making games "compatible" with Wine or its alternatives seems counter-productive, since the whole purpose of Wine is to replicate the Windows API. If Wine were complete (it is still a beta after all), Windows games would work just like they do in Windows when run through Wine. If you are going to make Wine the means of gaming on Linux, the focus should not be on making games work with Wine, but making Wine work with the games, i.e. completing Wine's implementation of the Windows API.

[madsmeg]

Sure, there are most definitely a lot more than just 1000 gamers on Linux, but when you are talking about a business that makes over 9 billion dollars a year, the comparative pocket change that would be produced by the Linux community is not worth the effort.

Well that is what we have to change :p we need to MAKE linux worth the effort i have tried converting sooo many people but all i get is "yeah i hate windows, but i cant play games on linux"....

To see my rant in full and have your opinion check out http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=573600

[cogadh]

Don't get gamers to use it, get "normal" people to use it. Games are not what made Windows the number one OS; MS Office did that (and some shady business practices). Games only came to Windows after it became apparent that it would be the OS of choice for the average user. If we get a lot more "average users" on Linux, then maybe the game developers will look at Linux as a potentially viable platform and start making games for it.

I also suggest getting kids to use it. My 9 year old uses Ubuntu every day, even though the computer he uses has the option of booting into Windows. He is going to grow up with Linux as a standard, just like I grew up with MS-DOS and later Windows as a standard. He's already become a "Linux evangelist" to his friends. In fact, one of his friend's fathers called me a while back to ask "What is this Linux thing my son keeps talking about?" I pointed him towards Ubuntu and he actually runs it on his business laptop now (still has Windows on the home PC though).

[the yawner]

What I do find interesting is how Bioware was able to port Neverwinter Nights to Linux...

[American_Outcast]

Don't get gamers to use it, get "normal" people to use it. Games are not what made Windows the number one OS; MS Office did that (and some shady business practices). Games only came to Windows after it became apparent that it would be the OS of choice for the average user. If we get a lot more "average users" on Linux, then maybe the game developers will look at Linux as a potentially viable platform and start making games for it.

I also suggest getting kids to use it. My 9 year old uses Ubuntu every day, even though the computer he uses has the option of booting into Windows. He is going to grow up with Linux as a standard, just like I grew up with MS-DOS and later Windows as a standard. He's already become a "Linux evangelist" to his friends. In fact, one of his friend's fathers called me a while back to ask "What is this Linux thing my son keeps talking about?" I pointed him towards Ubuntu and he actually runs it on his business laptop now (still has Windows on the home PC though).


I agree. The average user is what is important. I will keep using Ubuntu (Linux in general) and I do not want to go back to XP. But i do have an XP partition for games only. If I really want to use that game I will reboot into. Takes a minute to shutdown and boot it up. For non 3D games I use xp on my Virtual machine. So for me I have it covered. But for everything else, including many games as well, I use Ubuntu.

I am already showing people how good Ubuntu is for the average desktop user. If each one of us helps another get started on Ubuntu, then we have helped double the user base. That is a lot of people. Keep doing that every year then Ubuntu WILL catch up with MAC and Windows.

Anything is possible and within reach.

[blueshark.oo7]

The fact is that the only way that more games are going to be available for Linux is if they are made by Linux people in the first place.

Another fact is that as more good quality games are made for Linux, more people will join the opensource community.

We've got to make those games, not wait for other people to do it for us. There's been some decent tries over the years, but it's not really been anything up to the standards of other operative systems.

[prammy]

@blueshark:

As someone who supported Loki ( I bought every single game they released, even the ****** ones) unless the linux version is released in a decent timeframe it does not matter how good the game is. Most people who use Linux also have a windows partition for gaming, and they will just buy the windows version so they can play with their friends. And they definitely do not want to buy it twice.

[JM_Zen]

I agree. The average user is what is important. I will keep using Ubuntu (Linux in general) and I do not want to go back to XP. But i do have an XP partition for games only. If I really want to use that game I will reboot into. Takes a minute to shutdown and boot it up. For non 3D games I use xp on my Virtual machine. So for me I have it covered. But for everything else, including many games as well, I use Ubuntu.

I am already showing people how good Ubuntu is for the average desktop user. If each one of us helps another get started on Ubuntu, then we have helped double the user base. That is a lot of people. Keep doing that every year then Ubuntu WILL catch up with MAC and Windows.

Anything is possible and within reach.

While I agree with all the above points, I still see some wisdom in promoting Linux as a 'gamer's OS'. While this isn't currently feasible, with some tweaks to compatibility (i.e. our OS adapts to the games, rather than the games having to adapt to our OS*) it's a definite possiblity. Maybe a specialized version specifically for gaming - think along the lines of a 'Gubuntu' release.

If you can get even a small percentage of gamers on this system it would do wonders for publicising Linux to the 20-30yr old demo.

Anyway, this is my first post... so... please ignore me if my opinion is idiotic. :\


* I know very little about programming, and I know that's not simple, but surely it can be done?

[gwoodard]

Making games "compatible" with Wine or its alternatives seems counter-productive, since the whole purpose of Wine is to replicate the Windows API.

Um, the reason I asked this was to see if game companies can make a profit on games made for linux (and not have to use wine, cedega, or crossover to play) oh and apple and Windows

[gwoodard]

Making games "compatible" with Wine or its alternatives seems counter-productive, since the whole purpose of Wine is to replicate the Windows API.

The reason this question was asked was to see if game companies could make games compatible to play on linux (without wine or other "programs" )

[American_Outcast]

Anyway, this is my first post... so... please ignore me if my opinion is idiotic. :\
No opinion or idea is idiotic.

I do think, as I said in a previous post, if Linux was added to the companies that make games, they could pick up the ones who no longer buy Windows games and pick up a new market of those who would buy more games if they are made for Linux. Then they would have those who would rather buy them for Linux rather then Windows.

So profit from those they lost from not making Linux games, good ones. New customers who use Linux but aren't really interested in games right now because they are made for other OS's. Plus the those who buy Windows games but would buy Linux games instead. With the right company, the right marketing and the right visions, etc, they could make a decent profit. But first the average user needs to be targeted and, for example, Ubuntu has to be seen and known on a wider scale.

I would love to see Ubuntu TV commercials, radio ads and so on. But that would cost a lot of money but I think a some point it could be done in the next few releases if Ubuntu keeps getting better like it has been.

Yes, I dream big and see things big. Flying high is the best way to go, as long as ones feet are still on the ground.

[Henry Rayker]

While I agree with all the above points, I still see some wisdom in promoting Linux as a 'gamer's OS'. While this isn't currently feasible, with some tweaks to compatibility (i.e. our OS adapts to the games, rather than the games having to adapt to our OS*) it's a definite possiblity. Maybe a specialized version specifically for gaming - think along the lines of a 'Gubuntu' release.

If you can get even a small percentage of gamers on this system it would do wonders for publicising Linux to the 20-30yr old demo.

Anyway, this is my first post... so... please ignore me if my opinion is idiotic. :\


* I know very little about programming, and I know that's not simple, but surely it can be done?

Modifying the OS to suit the games is not really a feasible, to be honest. That's sort of what wine is trying to accomplish (trying to emulate the Windows API as closely as possible). Honestly, the resulting OS would probably wind up being more Windows than Linux.

Honestly, I think the Linux community is worth next to balls to the gaming industry. The industry is so large (money wise) and the Linux community is VERY small...and when you factor out all of the "open source only" nuts, you've got an even smaller number of people...factor out the "I'm in it for the free software" people and you're at an even smaller user group. The amount of cost-per-copy to get the games to the users would be completely absurd.

[madsmeg]

Modifying the OS to suit the games is not really a feasible, to be honest. That's sort of what wine is trying to accomplish (trying to emulate the Windows API as closely as possible). Honestly, the resulting OS would probably wind up being more Windows than Linux.

Honestly, I think the Linux community is worth next to balls to the gaming industry. The industry is so large (money wise) and the Linux community is VERY small...and when you factor out all of the "open source only" nuts, you've got an even smaller number of people...factor out the "I'm in it for the free software" people and you're at an even smaller user group. The amount of cost-per-copy to get the games to the users would be completely absurd.

I completely disagree, how would having games playable on Linux possibly make it like windows, or bring it closer? An OS is just that, an Operating System, it is something in the background that allows you to access, install and run files. All windows did was made it "pretty" and more user friendly. so you could say that all linux distro's are trying to be like windows (ofc they aren't).

And the point is yes we are "worth next to balls" in the gaming industry, and thats what we have to change, while i agree that the average user must be targeted, i do wonder, what IS an average user? What does an average user do?

[AJB2K3]

IMHO Midway ruined the UT franchise by removing the linux executable from there disks.
IMHO this will increase the amount of stolen copy's of ut traveling the web.

[gwoodard]

"I completely disagree, how would having games playable on Linux possibly make it like windows, or bring it closer?"

Hmm... just a minute, even if Ubuntu was the "gaming" mainstream, it would not be even close to windows due to the fact that Ubuntu (or any Linux kernal) is open source and has a "real" active help support (Microsoft...well all you get is a computerized program asking what is wrong and tells you Microsoft can't help and wants you to buy software) the software they wanted me to buy was a "Genuine Tool" that cost 150 dollars! BTW I have a "genuine" copy straight from the box (Windows XP Pro)

This may seem like "bashing" but it ticks me off that someone with a right mind would ever tell me that Linux is Similar or ever will be similar to Windows!

Thank you...but let's get back to the subject please

[Goronok]

It's been said earlier in the posts, but it would be very difficult, in my opinion, for developers to make any real money by porting games to linux. Wine/Crossover & Cedega are great tools to have, but it takes a game like World of Warcraft, with 8+ million subscribers, to get any game to a truely playable state.

When it all boils down, for me, not having Ventrilo functional is what makes me steer away from Linux. (Granted im running it right now) No need going on and on about Teamspeak and the plethora of other linux supported VoIPs, getting 100+ people in a WoW guild to switch VoIP programs for one linux user just isnt going to happen :-) Basically I have to run Windows via VMware just to be able to listen to people, I still can't talk.

Anywho, as much as I'd like to be able to stay on Linux/Ubuntu 100%, it just isn't possible for those that are "hardcore" gamers.

[gwoodard]

thank you for actually answering my question...that's all I wanted, to see if you don't need wine, cedega, or crossover and just have games "ported" to linux (or any other os or kernal :) )

[American_Outcast]

It's been said earlier in the posts, but it would be very difficult, in my opinion, for developers to make any real money by porting games to linux. Wine/Crossover & Cedega are great tools to have, but it takes a game like World of Warcraft, with 8+ million subscribers, to get any game to a truely playable state.

When it all boils down, for me, not having Ventrilo functional is what makes me steer away from Linux. (Granted im running it right now) No need going on and on about Teamspeak and the plethora of other linux supported VoIPs, getting 100+ people in a WoW guild to switch VoIP programs for one linux user just isnt going to happen :-) Basically I have to run Windows via VMware just to be able to listen to people, I still can't talk.

Anywho, as much as I'd like to be able to stay on Linux/Ubuntu 100%, it just isn't possible for those that are "hardcore" gamers.

Thats why I don't bother with Ventrillo or Voice chat in WoW. I am just good with out it and my Guild mates are the ones that suffer, ;) :lolflag:

Besides there are a growing number of users switching to Teamspeak.

[tempusfugit]

I would be a nice thing if gaming companys just made their games windows AND linux compatible in one thing. just like a standard windows/linux format.

[gwoodard]

Would not work, Microsoft would just do something (sue game companies) because if you have a Windows/Linux form factor game, Microsoft would complain or that Microsoft and Linux have two different file systems (.exe=windows, .deb=ubuntu linux) im not sure what the other linux based file systems are I'm only native to Ubuntu

Since you would need Wine, Cedega, or Crossover to use windows products on linux, you can't form the two unless someone changes file system...sorry:(

[cogadh]

File system means nothing, as does the exe or deb format (exe is a Windows executable, deb is just an installation package, not really an executable technically speaking). It's all in how the game's executable is compiled. There is absolutely no reason that game companies could not compile two versions of a game executable, one for Linux and one for Windows. The problems start when the developers use proprietary Windows APIs to program the games (i.e. DirectX). If they used open standards such as OpenGL, OpenAL, SDL, etc., then games could easily be compiled in formats that would work on practically any OS out there; Windows, Linux, Mac, BSD, Unix, whatever else there is that supports open standards.

[at a loss]

Read through this post and I am quite amazed really. Does none of you know that Egosoft ported X2 to linux? I never played that one, I play X3 and it's a killer on my 2Ghz Athlon Xp. I mean the processor struggles with it graphically.

Sure Winbloze is the main stream gaming platform for PC users, only because of well known business practises that were in the news. They squeezed linux out big time way back when.

So what about Dell? They sell Ubuntu boxes now so wouldn't that make game developers think? Linux does need some very good games to wow the gamers over and a rock solid platform with a huge driver rep.

Seriously, would you pay $250 for an OS that is riddled with faults and crashes after 6 weeks use?

I plan on building and selling *buntu boxes for various purposes and one of those will be for gaming.

[Frak]

Would not work, Microsoft would just do something (sue game companies) because if you have a Windows/Linux form factor game, Microsoft would complain or that Microsoft and Linux have two different file systems (.exe=windows, .deb=ubuntu linux) im not sure what the other linux based file systems are I'm only native to Ubuntu

Since you would need Wine, Cedega, or Crossover to use windows products on linux, you can't form the two unless someone changes file system...sorry:(
Filesystems make 0 difference in game designing, or for anything else for that matter. It all depends on how it is compiled and what engine they use. Also, Cedega and Wine are only Windows API translators, Windows is not the only OS that can play games, ALL OS's are capable of running graphics, and therefore games.

It's just that since the market is so small, that producers do not want to waste time and effort modifying a game to run on something to where they could possibly not see an acceptable return.

[gwoodard]

I never thought of that... I mean Google Earth can run by Open GL and runs on linux, windows, and possibly apple (not sure)

[Frak]

I never thought of that... I mean Google Earth can run by Open GL and runs on linux, windows, and possibly apple (not sure)
Google Earth runs on all OS's, it uses DX or OpenGL on Windows, and OpenGL on everything else.

[gwoodard]

thanks for the update

Im sure a lot of people would like to know if you can get games to run by DX and/or Open GL and be compatible for all OSs (I mean EA Games have games or theirs running on Apple, just don't know much about that, If those games are Open GL then can they run on Ubuntu as well as Macintosh?

[Frak]

Yes, it is very easy to port an OpenGL game to various other platforms with little modifications.

[gwoodard]

I bet if game companies did that for most (highly played) games then they could be making Booku Bucks...No pun intended

[Frak]

I bet if game companies did that for most (highly played) games then they could be making Booku Bucks...No pun intended
It's somewhat easier to develop for DX than it is to develop for OpenGL. That is being worked on though.

[gwoodard]

I wish that they would hurry up

[cactusbin]

One of the current "cross platform system" is java. You can make one executable with java that will run on all platforms. The only problem is... java sucks, especially for games.

[gwoodard]

This is why i put up this post to regard the methods of playing games on all systems

[at a loss]

It's not the prgramming as such, it's more the libraries used to build the game up that is the problem.

We could do with a pure gaming OS based on Linux and light enough on resources. That could be the one standard that linux gamers could use. Yes I am aware there is already a gaming version out but it needs games not Wine.

[gwoodard]

Um...dude Im talking about how to get games to work on all systems without wine...could you be more specific on the "Programming" area

[Baby Boy]

It's not the prgramming as such, it's more the libraries used to build the game up that is the problem.

We could do with a pure gaming OS based on Linux and light enough on resources. That could be the one standard that linux gamers could use. Yes I am aware there is already a gaming version out but it needs games not Wine.
What OS would that be? :???:

[cogadh]

Not to mention, why should there be a gaming version of Linux? Is there a gaming version of Windows? No, games should just work on your OS, regardless of which you choose to use.

[at a loss]

Linux and Windows use different librarie files to run. Files are not interchangeable between them, hence library files. I have never seen a DLL file on Linux where Windows gets riddled with them.

When you port a game from one OS to the other, you have to use a library set specific to that OS. I'm a geek, not tech support.:-P:biggrin:

I would rather game on Linux anyway, I think it's more stable than Windows for anything.

[at a loss]

What OS would that be? :???:

That would be Linux Live Gamers. http://live.linux-gamers.net/?s=home

[TheTank]

What is keeping me from removing the last remnants of WinXp are my games.
And what is keeping me from buying new games is that they do not work under Ubuntu.

[cogadh]

Linux and Windows use different librarie files to run. Files are not interchangeable between them, hence library files. I have never seen a DLL file on Linux where Windows gets riddled with them.

When you port a game from one OS to the other, you have to use a library set specific to that OS. I'm a geek, not tech support.:-P:biggrin:

I would rather game on Linux anyway, I think it's more stable than Windows for anything.
There aren't any DLL files in Windows that don't have Linux equivalent libraries if the game is developed using open standards like OpenGL. This is easily shown by games like Neverwinter Nights, Enemy Territory: Quake Wars, Unreal Tournament, the Quake series, Doom 3 and a few others that all have native Linux binaries that can be used to play the game using the data files from the Windows version of the game. The only time the Windows DLL is a problem is when a game is made using DirectX and has to rely on the Windows only DirectX DLL files.

[gwoodard]

When you port a game from one OS to the other, you have to use a library set specific to that OS. I'm a geek, not tech support.:-P:biggrin:

Like Windows ever has tech support:lolflag:

[gwoodard]

There aren't any DLL files in Windows that don't have Linux equivalent libraries if the game is developed using open standards like OpenGL. This is easily shown by games like Neverwinter Nights, Enemy Territory: Quake Wars, Unreal Tournament, the Quake series, Doom 3 and a few others that all have native Linux binaries that can be used to play the game using the data files from the Windows version of the game. The only time the Windows DLL is a problem is when a game is made using DirectX and has to rely on the Windows only DirectX DLL files.

Unfortunetly...I personally want Command and Conquer TFD to run on Ubuntu...oh and also Halo: Combat Evolved (Alas, my PC cannot handle CNC 3 or Halo 2...Stupid Vista)

Oh yeah check this out

http://www.macworld.com/news/2006/11/10/hlsl2glsl/index.php

[cogadh]

Yeah, those games are never going to run natively, unless MS makes a Linux native version of DX (never gonna happen). You might get lucky with Wine eventually.

[Frak]

Yeah, those games are never going to run natively, unless MS makes a Linux native version of DX (never gonna happen). You might get lucky with Wine eventually.
They hired a company to port DX10 to OS X then Linux. Being MS it won't be of great quality, but it will be usable nonetheless.

[cogadh]

If you are referring to Falling Leaf and the Alky product, they weren't hired by MS, they are basically trying to do what Wine has done, but only focusing on DX.

[Frak]

If you are referring to Falling Leaf and the Alky product, they weren't hired by MS, they are basically trying to do what Wine has done, but only focusing on DX.
I remember reading about some company being paid by MS to port Silverlight and DX10 to OS X and Linux. I may be wrong (pretty sure about silverlight, though)

[cogadh]

Silverlight is being ported by the Mono project (the same guys who are trying to port .NET), but I haven't heard anything about them working on DX10.

[koer]

Guys, ubuntu and its freeware are developing, look at wine, compiz and other software. Dont worry about gaming on linux, it will come, its just a race to see who comes first; a complete and good emulator that supports all software that windows does, or the ones that make software for windows, to start making linux versions, for now i use wine, I installed ubuntu only to test it so i only have 10 gigs on the partition, i can run EVE online, Guild wars, and UT 2004 ( i could run WOW but no more hard drive space :P) . EVE online is gonna release a linux version soon, and Unreal Turnament allready has its linux version.

Its only a matter of time before more game developers start making their games linux-compatible :D

Thats what i think.

I have not tried windows vista for gaming, but for what ive head, i would stick to Ubuntu :)

[gwoodard]

Just wish I knew or was a Programmer in these kind of things (DX and OpenGL)

If I was then I would help a lot of people out on how to convert DX Games to openGL

[Baby Boy]

Just wish I knew or was a Programmer in these kind of things (DX and OpenGL)

If I was then I would help a lot of people out on how to convert DX Games to openGL
I doubt it's that simple that a single person can convert a (large part of) game or everyone would be doing it :p.

[hikaricore]

I doubt it's that simple that a single person can convert a (large part of) game or everyone would be doing it :p.

Which is the exact reason that projects such as WINE make sense.

Reverse engineering and API conversion vs. decompiling and rewriting every application in existence.
LOL Not only is it a hell of alot more feasible, butalso produces much much better results across the board.

[desertboy]

I think if they sold them as windows or linux only versions not much, but multi version I think good games can more than break even. The only problem is how do you tell which market people have bought it for.

The 1% stat seems very made up to me especially as many people have their browsers setup to spoof windows so stats are very unreliable.

Linux users are far less likely to pirate software as well it's not in our ethos, we find another way or pay up.

[thexero]

windows vista is terrible for everything, i had to use it in the summer for my new job and i hated every second, the only good thing about it in the new interface and that when it is working without crashing it is very fast. but still it freezes alot more than even xp.

vista is a failure an microsoft are bringin bout windows vienna in 2009 i hear

[cogadh]

I think if they sold them as windows or linux only versions not much, but multi version I think good games can more than break even. The only problem is how do you tell which market people have bought it for.
Personally, I don't think the market should matter. Game companies should not be looking at the OS breakdown, they should be looking at the PC market as a whole and just make their game cross platform compatible for all the major OSes. That way, they are guaranteed to sell as many copies as possible.

The 1% stat seems very made up to me especially as many people have their browsers setup to spoof windows so stats are very unreliable.
The 1% does not really come from browser hits, those stats are just used to illustrate the breakdown. The source of the "real" count is actually an estimate, but it is based on the known number of PCs in existence (determined from PC sales figures and the average life span of a PC) and the number of those PCs that have Windows on them. That figure is very easy to determine, because of Windows sales figures, the registration/activation process and its habit of "calling home" every once in a while. Whatever is left after you discount all the Windows machines are machines that run alternate OSes. Deduct from that all the machines that run Mac OS, which can very easily be determined from Mac sales, and you are left with the Unix/Linux/BSD/Other crowd, which is about 1-2% of all PCs in use today.

What those numbers don't take into account are the number of machines that dual-boot Linux and Windows. All of those machines are likely counted as Windows users, despite the fact that most of them mainly use Linux and only resort to Windows for Windows-specific applications. At absolute most, that might bring the total number of Linux users up to a solid 2% of the total market, but the fact is, Microsoft very clearly dominates the desktop OS market.

Linux users are far less likely to pirate software as well it's not in our ethos, we find another way or pay up.
But as more people start to use Linux, this will become less and less true. I'm not sure how true it is even today, there are plenty of people who switched to Linux because of its free (gratis) nature, not because of its free (libre) nature.

[gwoodard]

windows vista is terrible for everything, i had to use it in the summer for my new job and i hated every second, the only good thing about it in the new interface and that when it is working without crashing it is very fast. but still it freezes alot more than even xp.

vista is a failure an microsoft are bringin bout windows vienna in 2009 i hear

This is not "A Windows Bashing Area" go somewhere else...