Web designers, is lack of CS3 an issue for you?

[lyceum]

I am writing a paper for a class. I had to chose a problem and find the solution. I wanted to run this idea by any web designers that do or want to use CS3 here.

Problem:
CS3 does not work in Ubuntu, or in Linux/GNU in general.

I know that it is not a FOSS program, but as a web designer, it has tool we need from time to time, and there are no open counter parts to flash, no easy JavaScript, etc.

Solutions:
1. Open CS3 (yeah right! they only opened Flex because no one knows what it is)

2. Make it run on the more popular distros, like Debian, SuSE etc... (Would cost a lots, how many people would really use it?)

3. Pay one person to work on the WINE project with other community developers to help get it running before CS4 comes out. (could at least pay for itself and look good, like they are working with the open source community).

So, I was wondering how many of you use CS3, or would like to use it and what you think of my solutions. Please feel free to add your own.

edit:
I opted to make the poll multiple choice, if you chose more than one answer, please state why.

Thank you.

[Madpilot]

Where's the poll options for "I've never used CS3, don't need it, and don't really mind if Adobe never gets around to making Linux versions of their stuff"?

Where do people get the idea that "Adobe programs = all of web/graphic design"?

Gnash is starting to open Flash up. A number of existing FLOSS apps have javascript helpers - or you can just write the stuff yourself. It's just text, after all.

[Nymphadora]

I've been using CS2 and the old Macromedia in XP, and havent seen any problems with it as far as not being able to get done what I want done. I'm still trying to get used to Ubuntu actually - but I've only just switched over to CS2 from 7 because of a couple features that I completely fell in love with! And believe it or not, it still gets the job done. Especially if you're just figuring on a couple ad graphics here and there or a fairly simple site layout, graphics-wise.

Btw, I chose the 'I would run CS3 with a WINE or Crossover like program if it worked before CS4 came out' option because that would probably be the easiest.. I'd probably end up just making the switch from CS2 to CS4 whenever that came available though.

[lyceum]

Where's the poll options for "I've never used CS3, don't need it, and don't really mind if Adobe never gets around to making Linux versions of their stuff"?

Where do people get the idea that "Adobe programs = all of web/graphic design"?

Gnash is starting to open Flash up. A number of existing FLOSS apps have javascript helpers - or you can just write the stuff yourself. It's just text, after all.

This thread is for a school project, and is aimed at those who DO use CS3. I try to make as many of my school projects about FOSS to raise awareness. Myself, I do not use all of Adobe's programs. I do use Flash, as it is popular and is requested by people paying me. At some point I am going to have to buy a copy and learn CS3 for a few classes. I, for one, do not want to also buy Windows just for a few classes. At some point I will have to get a job, and knowing the Adobe products looks good on a resume.

It looks like you chose the option you wanted. If it were FOSS, I am guessing you would not care about Gnash. The Gnash project would not be here is Adobe were using the GPL. As for Gnash, I really with they would skip it and work on some thing else. A FOSS program like Flash, that is just as easy to use, but it would not have to make Flash files, rather their own files. It might be nice if it could port to flash files, but that should be an extra. There no point in re-doing someone else's work. My 2 cents as a web designer and FOSS user.

Also, could you list some of the programs that use GUI to create JavaScript? That would be great info for times when I am in a rush.

I've been using CS2 and the old Macromedia in XP, and havent seen any problems with it as far as not being able to get done what I want done. I'm still trying to get used to Ubuntu actually - but I've only just switched over to CS2 from 7 because of a couple features that I completely fell in love with! And believe it or not, it still gets the job done. Especially if you're just figuring on a couple ad graphics here and there or a fairly simple site layout, graphics-wise.

Btw, I chose the 'I would run CS3 with a WINE or Crossover like program if it worked before CS4 came out' option because that would probably be the easiest.. I'd probably end up just making the switch from CS2 to CS4 whenever that came available though.

Thanks for the input! I am also still on Studio 8 for Flash. It gets the job done. It would be nice to have the opportunity to catch up to the rest of the world though :)

[adamorjames]

I don't use CS3. Not an issue,

[lyceum]

I don't use CS3. Not an issue,

If it were GPLed would you? or would you still use GIMP, Gnash, Bluefish, etc?

[adamorjames]

If it were GPLed would you? or would you still use GIMP, Gnash, Bluefish, etc?

Yes I would use it if it were GPLed.

[lyceum]

Yes I would use it if it were GPLed.

Cool, thanks!

[dmn_clown]

If it were GPLed would you? or would you still use GIMP, Gnash, Bluefish, etc?

LOL!

Adobe will never release their cash cow under a FOSS license. They also won't port it to GNU/Linux for the simple fact that they feel there is no profit in it. Considering the full version (http://www.google.com/products?q=adobe+creative+suite+3+premium&btnG=Search&show=dd) of their graphic suite has a license fee of close to $2,000 US there are very few individuals and graphic houses that can afford to purchase it at that price, so I can see their point. If they ported a fully functional Photoshop (not elements) I would purchase it but I have no interest or need for the rest of their creative suite.

[NovaAesa]

I would use CS3 if it was FOSS, but I would also use it if it could run in WINE (so I ticked the bottom option). At the moment, I running Fireworks and Dreamweaver 8 using WINE (or is it 7?, I can't really rememeber).

In the even that it would be GPLed (although I really don't see why this would/could ever happen), I'd be quite happy to run it natively in GNU/Linux if it got ported.

[Dogsisgood]

I voted for both the second and fourth (I think) choices. I do use CS3 in Windows XP, native, not virtualized, and I'd love to see it work, fully work (meaning that the VersionCue server and clients would work as the should too), under Wine, or another virtualization/emulator utility.

Also, please let me point out that, as academic problems are prone to do, your premise considers only an idealistic world where we are limited to only your choices. In the real world, as for CS3 being "FOSS", well maybe not "OSS",but certainly "F" for "Free". See BitTorrent 101.

I'm not intending to be a wiseguy (okay, maybe just a little), but simply wish to point out that marketplace dynamics, purchasing (thieving?) decisions, etc. are much more complex than if we assume idealistic behavior. For example, as a response to the high cost of the CS3 line of products it is possible that many of the smaller graphics studios and individuals are turning to alternative means of acquiring CS3. This may also be a reaction by many users of the trial versions to the incredibly buggy nature of CS3 apps, and Adobe's near non-response to our problems.

[Hairy_Palms]

i use Dreamweaver CS3 under wine, works perfectly, other than that i personally have no need, ( i hate flash, especially since actionscript 3)

[lyceum]

I voted for both the second and fourth (I think) choices. I do use CS3 in Windows XP, native, not virtualized, and I'd love to see it work, fully work (meaning that the VersionCue server and clients would work as the should too), under Wine, or another virtualization/emulator utility.

Also, please let me point out that, as academic problems are prone to do, your premise considers only an idealistic world where we are limited to only your choices. In the real world, as for CS3 being "FOSS", well maybe not "OSS",but certainly "F" for "Free". See BitTorrent 101.

I'm not intending to be a wiseguy (okay, maybe just a little), but simply wish to point out that marketplace dynamics, purchasing (thieving?) decisions, etc. are much more complex than if we assume idealistic behavior. For example, as a response to the high cost of the CS3 line of products it is possible that many of the smaller graphics studios and individuals are turning to alternative means of acquiring CS3. This may also be a reaction by many users of the trial versions to the incredibly buggy nature of CS3 apps, and Adobe's near non-response to our problems.

I have to agree that Adobe will not be running to licence their products with the GPL. I will be talking about that in my report. I think that at this point, working with the WINE team is the company's best option. Looking at things reailistically, if a webdesigner has a buget to buy eaither a great computer or Adobe, the web designer would be the great PC. If they could save money on the PC getting a used one w/out an OS, throw Ubuntu on it and up grade it as they can afford to, they could still run CS3 if Adobe would help make that posible. That would be a sale for Adobe and a win/win for the web desigener wanting to use CS3.

[obis666]

I just have to throw in my 2 cents. I have been having this issue for a long time. I worked for a university as a web programmer/designer and the various departments that hired me expected me to add flash to their sites. I was only able to use versions of flash that were at least 2 years old, simply because I was the only person running linux (in a department of windows users,.. Bla). So the compromise was either to buy and run windows simply to keep my website portfolio up to date or use obsolete versions of Flash. I wish there was an easier solution for this problem but my solution has been running virtual machines (which sucks btw) with windows under linux, this is extremely slow unless I use my computer I call 'the beast' (my laptop cant even slightly handle virtual machines).

In response to some people suggesting use of bluefish, quanta, and gimp. The very first time I used Bluefish, it broke my site. I had created a site in php with Quanta and decided to try Bluefish, so I modified a page with Bluefish. Saved. And the whole site, every last page was broken, even my includes were f'ed up . I contacted Bluefish and they didnt do much other than say they didnt understand. Some of the includes in my site were replaced with bluefish code (I thought wtf). Luckily I had a backup, but that ended my relationship with bluefish. With Quanta I find that I am very limited. It is also difficult to connect to many servers with quanta. At the university I worked at I could not connect with Quanta at all. And gimp is cool, but you simply cannot get the same results with gimp as with Photoshop. But even with all of these problems I have just lised with open source apps, (because I dont want to support companies like Microsoft) I still try to use them first, get frustrated with the results (or lack of) and end up using Adobe.

So in response to your original question, Yes lack of CS3 is an issue for me. But I would be willing to do whatever I can to help porting CS3 in wine, but I am really only any good with web programming/design, graphics and music composition. .. But I guess thats why we are in this position in the first place though, I'm a perfect example. Creative people dont usually program and programmers dont understand the needs of the creative people.

[pcjunkie]

Creative people dont usually program and programmers dont understand the needs of the creative people.

Indeed

Easy eclipse is very good at most things programming / web. Plenty of plug ins....

Blue fish is fine for HTML and is much more nimble than dream weaver...
Aptana does well too.

Who can afford Adobe?

I get by without it and have done for some time! Who needs it! There are so many alternatives that work just as well! Adobe can rot in hell for what they charge! Mostly its bloated garbage anyway....

[FredB]

I don't want a bloatware to make sites. Nvu is sometimes enough to write sites.

[lyceum]

I just have to throw in my 2 cents. I have been having this issue for a long time. I worked for a university as a web programmer/designer and the various departments that hired me expected me to add flash to their sites. I was only able to use versions of flash that were at least 2 years old, simply because I was the only person running linux (in a department of windows users,.. Bla). So the compromise was either to buy and run windows simply to keep my website portfolio up to date or use obsolete versions of Flash. I wish there was an easier solution for this problem but my solution has been running virtual machines (which sucks btw) with windows under linux, this is extremely slow unless I use my computer I call 'the beast' (my laptop cant even slightly handle virtual machines).

In response to some people suggesting use of bluefish, quanta, and gimp. The very first time I used Bluefish, it broke my site. I had created a site in php with Quanta and decided to try Bluefish, so I modified a page with Bluefish. Saved. And the whole site, every last page was broken, even my includes were f'ed up . I contacted Bluefish and they didnt do much other than say they didnt understand. Some of the includes in my site were replaced with bluefish code (I thought wtf). Luckily I had a backup, but that ended my relationship with bluefish. With Quanta I find that I am very limited. It is also difficult to connect to many servers with quanta. At the university I worked at I could not connect with Quanta at all. And gimp is cool, but you simply cannot get the same results with gimp as with Photoshop. But even with all of these problems I have just lised with open source apps, (because I dont want to support companies like Microsoft) I still try to use them first, get frustrated with the results (or lack of) and end up using Adobe.

So in response to your original question, Yes lack of CS3 is an issue for me. But I would be willing to do whatever I can to help porting CS3 in wine, but I am really only any good with web programming/design, graphics and music composition. .. But I guess thats why we are in this position in the first place though, I'm a perfect example. Creative people dont usually program and programmers dont understand the needs of the creative people.

This is exactly the issue I worry about, and why I chose this topic for my paper. Those that need it can't fix the problem, and those that can fix it don't see a problem, as they do not use it. Thank you for your input.

[lyceum]

*bump*

[Druke]

Where is the option "if it was ported"(not with wine, but with a simple installer,like doom3, quake wars, and other commercial games)

just because its on linux doesn't mean its FOSS

[Room 34]

I use CS3 on a Mac at work, but if I were going to switch over to doing all of my work in a desktop Linux environment, I think I'd try getting familiar with GIMP and other open source tools. (Actually, the only CS3 tool I really use is Photoshop anyway.)

I work on a Mac and these are the only programs I use in web design/development:
* Photoshop (CS3 at work, my old copy of 7.0 at home)
* BBEdit (for ALL coding)
* Firefox (for previewing, then I check Safari and IE when I have to)
* Transmit (FTP GUI)
* Terminal (for talking to our Linux web server)

From what I've seen, the default built-in Text Editor app that ships with Ubuntu does some nice color coding, so for a while at least I'd just use that for coding; Firefox and Terminal are here; gFTP seems like a pretty good GUI FTP client; so that just leaves the graphics app, and I think GIMP would do the job there. So... Adobe can stuff it!

[TeaSwigger]

Yes it is an issue or rather surely would be were I to further web design for a career.

/blab/
I would that it weren't, as I'm not interested in flash and don't like crawling through it on sites which integrate flash. The licensing costs do their little part to help those that have, those who will sacrifice most of their life for a career and those who will take by any means, get ahead. "That's life," huh?

Creative people dont usually program and programmers dont understand the needs of the creative people.

And moreover, neither are in charge.

/blab/

[michaelzap]

I do miss Photoshop, although I'm learning to like the GIMP and I think it could probably meet all of my needs once I figure out how to use it properly (and it is 100x faster than Photoshop). I have not yet booted into XP just to use Photoshop, although I do more coding than graphic work lately. I have had to boot into XP to create Flash files, however, since there's no alternative for that in Ubuntu.

I would run CS2 or CS3 in Ubuntu any way that worked. I'd prefer not to have to use Wine, but I would if it functioned properly that way. I'd even use a virtual machine if it weren't so much slower than just rebooting into XP.

One thing I would never do is pay Adobe two grand for their software. If it were reasonably-priced, I might consider it. But two grand is nowhere close to reasonable, and there are many options for getting the job done.

[BradwJensen]

I just have to throw in my 2 cents. I have been having this issue for a long time. I worked for a university as a web programmer/designer and the various departments that hired me expected me to add flash to their sites. I was only able to use versions of flash that were at least 2 years old, simply because I was the only person running linux (in a department of windows users,.. Bla). So the compromise was either to buy and run windows simply to keep my website portfolio up to date or use obsolete versions of Flash. I wish there was an easier solution for this problem but my solution has been running virtual machines (which sucks btw) with windows under linux, this is extremely slow unless I use my computer I call 'the beast' (my laptop cant even slightly handle virtual machines).

In response to some people suggesting use of bluefish, quanta, and gimp. The very first time I used Bluefish, it broke my site. I had created a site in php with Quanta and decided to try Bluefish, so I modified a page with Bluefish. Saved. And the whole site, every last page was broken, even my includes were f'ed up . I contacted Bluefish and they didnt do much other than say they didnt understand. Some of the includes in my site were replaced with bluefish code (I thought wtf). Luckily I had a backup, but that ended my relationship with bluefish. With Quanta I find that I am very limited. It is also difficult to connect to many servers with quanta. At the university I worked at I could not connect with Quanta at all. And gimp is cool, but you simply cannot get the same results with gimp as with Photoshop. But even with all of these problems I have just lised with open source apps, (because I dont want to support companies like Microsoft) I still try to use them first, get frustrated with the results (or lack of) and end up using Adobe.

So in response to your original question, Yes lack of CS3 is an issue for me. But I would be willing to do whatever I can to help porting CS3 in wine, but I am really only any good with web programming/design, graphics and music composition. .. But I guess thats why we are in this position in the first place though, I'm a perfect example. Creative people dont usually program and programmers dont understand the needs of the creative people.

Really nice post!
Also, if you haven't you should try out <a href="www.aptana.com">Aptana</a> for making/editing websites.. I thought i would never find a decent web program for linux and when i tried this program i was very surprised.. Though it doesn't have the SHIFT + ENTER to add a line break or CONTROL + SHIFT + ENTER to add a space code.. they have a Ticket in place to work out to make it so you can set html codes to keystrokes..

[victorche]

Web design is my job and I can not do it without Photoshop... All the templates that I make are prepared in Photoshop at first place (CS2 or CS3, no matter for me)...

So this piece of software is the only thing that makes me keep my Windows partition...

And Gimp... I think people who say that Gimp can do everything... They've never used Photoshop OR they don't do this professional.
Gimp is so far away behind Adobe... :(

Anyway, I hope Adobe will just port it to Linux one day...

[lyceum]

So, I was looking in Wikipesdia, is Maya Linux friendly? It is one of the OS's they ask about when you down load. I am sure Maya is not free or open sourse. Just food for though for the people that think that CS3 on Linux is a bad move as it would cost Adobe money.

:guitar:

[AJB2K3]

Why would I even want to waste time with CS3,
I know Xhtml, HTML a css so I know how to make a page without useless crap!

[lyceum]

Why would I even want to waste time with CS3,
I know Xhtml, HTML a css so I know how to make a page without useless crap!

You did not mention flash, are you good at writting action scripts? :confused: Also, keep in mind, that some people have to have some of these programs for work or school. If you do not have to ues it, good for you! I do use flash, when asked. It would be nice to use the latest and gratest rather than the older model.

This thread is for CS users, or potentual CS users. What bothers me are people that fly in and yell at people because they use one program over another. Freedom is about options and choice. If someone choses to use CS3, let them, and do not take it so personally. :)

[BradwJensen]

One of the big things here that i think a lot of people don't always think of is, a lot of people WOULD use Linux if apps Like Dreamweaver, Photoshop, and so forth were available for Linux.. Then Adobe really would have a market here.. NOT TO MENTION if Adobe made a port to Linux more people would use Linux because it usually Costs them Nothing - leaving more money to be spent on the Adobe Creative Suite applications.. Linux is catching up and i can only think that if one has a 100% FREE Operating System out there for them to download (Linux) that only gets BETTER over time, that Operating System is going to over rule marketshare of Operating Systems that cost money like Windows and Mac OS over time.. So really its a matter of Adobe porting the apps to Linux to create themselves a BIGGER customer base.. and helping Linux get somewhere faster.

SO:

* Adobe Ports to linux
* More people use FREE linux because they can now get Adobe apps
* FREE Linux = extra money for people from not buying windows or Mac OS
* More people with more money than once before = even more Adobe customers than there used to be.

They'll most likely have to do it someday.. Why not get a head start?

[Samhain13]

And Gimp... I think people who say that Gimp can do everything... They've never used Photoshop OR they don't do this professional.
Gimp is so far away behind Adobe...

I disagree. I've used Photoshop as a professional since it was first introduced to the PC (it was originally Apple/Mac only). While not saying that Gimp is superior to Photoshop, in this matter of web design, there is no question that the Gimp is a professional web graphics tool-- except if...

Web design is my job and I can not do it without Photoshop... All the templates that I make are prepared in Photoshop at first place (CS2 or CS3, no matter for me)...

which casts into doubt whether you are a real web designer or a graphic designer who simply happens to know something about HTML and other related technologies. Web design is a different discipline that has SOME commonality with graphic design. But they are not the same.

Point is, Photoshop is a great tool for graphic designers and their craft. But to echo AJB2K3, it is a non-essential to web design as a craft.

[mech7]

Point is, Photoshop is a great tool for graphic designers and their craft. But to echo AJB2K3, it is a non-essential to web design as a craft.

I don't know your experience in this field.. but i can tell you that i have never ever ever seen any studio use gimp.. for designing web pages or dtp.. in this industry if you are doing it professional you can't go aorund adobe software as much as you would like..

Except when you are a developer then there are great free tools like Eclipse, as dreamweaver is pretty much only good at html / css but nothing more it misses proper serverside language integration and versioning systems.

[Samhain13]

I don't know your experience in this field.. but i can tell you that i have never ever ever seen any studio use gimp.. for designing web pages or dtp.. in this industry if you are doing it professional you can't go aorund adobe software as much as you would like..

Like I said above, I come from a time when there was no Photoshop available for the PC, which means studios at the time used cameras, sacto knives, paints, pencils and paste (yes, the one kiddies use for school). Then came Corel and Adobe. And Photoshop used to be exclusive to Apple/Mac-- I think until version 4-- while Corel was natively available in Windows 3.1.

True that things evolve and in any graphic design environment, Photoshop is the standard. And it has indeed earned its place.

But again, as you have conveniently left out from your quotation: Graphic Design IS NOT Web Design. You seem to not know the difference. But let me assure you that in Web Design, the GIMP will suffice.

By the way, Apache2 MySQL and PHP are also free and easily installable in Ubuntu. I need nothing more except that, the GIMP and Gedit.

[lyceum]

One of the big things here that i think a lot of people don't always think of is, a lot of people WOULD use Linux if apps Like Dreamweaver, Photoshop, and so forth were available for Linux.. Then Adobe really would have a market here.. NOT TO MENTION if Adobe made a port to Linux more people would use Linux because it usually Costs them Nothing - leaving more money to be spent on the Adobe Creative Suite applications.. Linux is catching up and i can only think that if one has a 100% FREE Operating System out there for them to download (Linux) that only gets BETTER over time, that Operating System is going to over rule marketshare of Operating Systems that cost money like Windows and Mac OS over time.. So really its a matter of Adobe porting the apps to Linux to create themselves a BIGGER customer base.. and helping Linux get somewhere faster.

SO:

* Adobe Ports to linux
* More people use FREE linux because they can now get Adobe apps
* FREE Linux = extra money for people from not buying windows or Mac OS
* More people with more money than once before = even more Adobe customers than there used to be.

They'll most likely have to do it someday.. Why not get a head start?

I agree 100%. I was reading here: http://www.adobeforums.com/cgi-bin/webx?14@@.3bc3ec04/0 and read the following:

It's not cost-effective for Adobe to do it, else they would do it. Adobe has no responsibility to Linux to make Linux more desirable.

I disagree that it is not cost effective, how hard would it be to dedicate one person to the WINE project and help them get some thing they are already working on done? CS3 aps are among the top 10 Windows aps Linux users want: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/02/06/photoshop_on_linux/ I still maintain that more people could afford to buy CS3 if they could put it on a used PC and skip paying for the OS.

[lyceum]

Graphic Design IS NOT Web Design.

As a webdesign student, I would both agree and disagree with this statment. If you are just hacking code for a company, you are right. If you are a web desinger, making sites from scratch and want them to look good, you had better have a little graphic design in you. Either way, I still can't figure out how to make Flash movies without Flash, so I am stuck with Flash 8 with WINE for now.

[jbdev]

Lack of CS3 ?

I have both a MAC and Ubuntu box's at work so I have no lack of CS3. I don't see Gimp, Ink Scape, Scribus or anything else for that matter taking the place of Adobe design apps for professional design work.

Don't get me wrong. Gimp can do what you need it to, but I could not use it due to the "standard" that Adobe has set in the industry. Same goes for Open Office, which I also use, but still have MS office installed on my mac because that is what every one else uses that I have to communicate with.

Give me a terminal and Gimp I can do just as good of a job as with some propiatery IDE and CS3 apps, but employers and clients will want you to use the industry standards and that pays the bills. I use what ever tools I have available to me for the job at hand.

I wish adobe would port their apps to Linux. I have been using Linux for 10 years now and would love to see more things developed for it, Maybe in the next 5 years we will start to see it.

Try working in Video or Sound Studio's and tell them you will use Ubuntu Studio instead of Pro Tools or (Other standard App) .... Not going to happen. But I bet you could do it ( for the most part ) if you do not have to work with anyone else or another studio.

[timmyw29]

Well, I can't say I'm a professional or anything... but... I like CS3 simply because it has integrated docks for the toolbars/etc. If there's one thing I hated most about earlier versions of Photoshop, in particular... it's the fact that all the toolbars (layers pallette, history, tool selector etc) didn't dock quite as snugly as they do in CS3. Sure they clipped their edges to one another but it's not the same.

I know... I sound like an idiot... but it's just the way I like things to work.

[AJB2K3]

You did not mention flash, are you good at writting action scripts? Also, keep in mind, that some people have to have some of these programs for work or school. If you do not have to ues it, good for you! I do use flash, when asked. It would be nice to use the latest and gratest rather than the older model.
Thats because I don't believe that its needed in modern web design so i never bother to look into learning it.

Web design and graphics design both go together and against each other but its a common point the the graphics designer doesn't know jack about web technology so doesn't have the foggiest idea how things work.
Often its down to the web designer to try the impossible then turn around and say that it wont work.

OH i agree that if apple made linux version of then software they will say more but with gimp growing better with every realise and doesn't have the stupid price tag.

BTW design studios don't use gimp down to two reason
1, never heard of it,
2, used ps for so long that they don't know of alternative that are more economicaly friendly
and the third
CMYK support Is not a valid excuse now 2.4 has CMYK.

BTW sorry for the very rude earler post.

[lyceum]

Thats because I don't believe that its needed in modern web design so i never bother to look into learning it.

Some of us do have to learn it for school and/or use it for work. It is very easy to use, and I do wish it was free (FOSS, not $$'s). I do not think it ever will be, but it would at least be nice to have on Linux for those of us that DO use the program. And while you are right, it is not "needed" it is desired, and that counts more in this world :)

BTW sorry for the very rude earler post.

That's okay, sorry if I was rude back :)

[potentia]

I don't use CS3. Not an issue,

So, why do you have to answer?

[potentia]

If you need the features in Photoshop you will quickly discover that the same features are not available in GIMP. The lack of LAB color support and adjustment layers is reason enough to buy Photoshop.

In other words, I need the features in Photoshop for my work as a photographer. The GIMP even cannot open my RAW images from my camera without converting them to 8-bit mode.

So, open source philosophy does not help. I need professional quality and output. I need professional software. I have to buy it. If it doesn't run on Linux, then I will run it on Windows or Mac.

Linux desperately need professional software or something like Wine that WORKS.

[prammy]

But again, as you have conveniently left out from your quotation: Graphic Design IS NOT Web Design. You seem to not know the difference. But let me assure you that in Web Design, the GIMP will suffice.


Agreed. I do more work in Gimp now than my ancient copy of Photoshop. Photoshop does make it easier but then again once you get used to GIMP most web graphics can be done just as easily in Gimp as in Photoshop.

[prammy]

If you need the features in Photoshop you will quickly discover that the same features are not available in GIMP. The lack of LAB color support and adjustment layers is reason enough to buy Photoshop.

In other words, I need the features in Photoshop for my work as a photographer. The GIMP even cannot open my RAW images from my camera without converting them to 8-bit mode.

So, open source philosophy does not help. I need professional quality and output. I need professional software. I have to buy it. If it doesn't run on Linux, then I will run it on Windows or Mac.

Linux desperately need professional software or something like Wine that WORKS.

There was Corel Photopaint which was ported to Linux using winelib. Though it is not available anymore.

I do agree with your post. As far as work is concerned, use what works. :-)

[Samhain13]

As a webdesign student, I would both agree and disagree with this statment. If you are just hacking code for a company, you are right. If you are a web desinger, making sites from scratch and want them to look good, you had better have a little graphic design in you...

True. But the graphic design demands of constructing websites (from scratch) is different from the demands of designing for print outputs.

The most indispensible features of Photoshop that are not widely available are those that facilitate finalising a project beginning from the desktop template to the set medium: paper, tarpauline, etc. What are those features? The most basic would be the CMYK mode, colour separation utilities, and that text editing tool that I have not seen equalled by any other graphic design application except, maybe the ones from Corel and Adobe's own Illustrator.

These are great features but they are useless in web design because web design has a totally different set of considerations and demands. What use is there to design web pages in CMYK mode? And colour separation? And being able to manipulate text extensively when ultimately, the web pages' display text depend soley on the capabilities and settings of the various user-agents that people use to access those web pages?

There is no way for a designer to have their work implemented stricly and AS IS when the output medium is the Web, or anything that is not as static as paper.

Unless, of course, one dares to build a website that's made up completely of image maps. :lolflag:

[eheyl]

My question is, what do people use/recommend for web graphic layout (a la fireworks) that is free? I'm sorely missing that but have totally gone linux and will NOT go back!

[AJB2K3]

These are great features but they are useless in web design because web design has a totally different set of considerations and demands. What use is there to design web pages in CMYK mode?:
CMYK is now in gimp.

[Samhain13]

^Really? That's nice.
I still don't think it's going to be useful for web design though. :D

[Druke]

True. But the graphic design demands of constructing websites (from scratch) is different from the demands of designing for print outputs...


Thank you! I could not have said it better myself

[lyceum]

True. But the graphic design demands of constructing websites (from scratch) is different from the demands of designing for print outputs.

The most indispensible features of Photoshop that are not widely available are those that facilitate finalising a project beginning from the desktop template to the set medium: paper, tarpauline, etc. What are those features? The most basic would be the CMYK mode, colour separation utilities, and that text editing tool that I have not seen equalled by any other graphic design application except, maybe the ones from Corel and Adobe's own Illustrator.

These are great features but they are useless in web design because web design has a totally different set of considerations and demands. What use is there to design web pages in CMYK mode? And colour separation? And being able to manipulate text extensively when ultimately, the web pages' display text depend soley on the capabilities and settings of the various user-agents that people use to access those web pages?

There is no way for a designer to have their work implemented stricly and AS IS when the output medium is the Web, or anything that is not as static as paper.

Unless, of course, one dares to build a website that's made up completely of image maps. :lolflag:


Ironically, I always forget that Photosghop is a part of CS3. I hate Photoshop, it is too hard to learn. I use GIMP. The thing I use personally is Flash. I have not really found any way to make Flash sites without it :D I really do not like many flash sites, but they are popular.

[mech7]

Well you say grahpic design is not webdesign but they share allot in common.. also sources they are usually shared like brochures, logo's, photo's etc.. And workflow between applications has been improved dramatically with CS 3 :)

Like I said above, I come from a time when there was no Photoshop available for the PC, which means studios at the time used cameras, sacto knives, paints, pencils and paste (yes, the one kiddies use for school). Then came Corel and Adobe. And Photoshop used to be exclusive to Apple/Mac-- I think until version 4-- while Corel was natively available in Windows 3.1.

True that things evolve and in any graphic design environment, Photoshop is the standard. And it has indeed earned its place.

But again, as you have conveniently left out from your quotation: Graphic Design IS NOT Web Design. You seem to not know the difference. But let me assure you that in Web Design, the GIMP will suffice.

By the way, Apache2 MySQL and PHP are also free and easily installable in Ubuntu. I need nothing more except that, the GIMP and Gedit.

[jespdj]

About your first option: "I would only use CS3 unless it became FOSS" - I guess you meant "I would only use CS3 if it became FOSS", or "I would not use CS3 unless it became FOSS"?

I am using Photoshop CS3 on Windows Vista and I would be very happy if there was a way to run it on Linux, preferrably as a native Linux application, but otherwise under WINE. Photoshop and Bridge CS3 (and the lack of video support in the Linux version of Skype) are the only programs that keep me from completely getting off of Windows.

I use Photoshop CS3 mainly for editing digital photos, and The GIMP unfortunately lacks some of the functionality in PS CS3 that I use often.

[WiseOdd]

Same Here. The only thing keeping me from ditchin win completely is photoshop. Regardless of what others say, i cant do any work with out some form of PS :( Ihve been using photoshop cs thry wine, but it doesnt work particularly well. Now I use cs3 thru VirtualBox. If the different adobe programs became usable in linux, then i would LOVE it!
Then no crappy windows!

[lyceum]

About your first option: "I would only use CS3 unless it became FOSS" - I guess you meant "I would only use CS3 if it became FOSS", or "I would not use CS3 unless it became FOSS"?

Yes, sorry about that.

[g4m3b0y]

I have noticed that this could be somewhat of a heated topic to some (that puts a smile on my face). Hasn't anyone notice the keywords "WEB DESIGNERS" in the thread heading? I don't want to sound arrogant but I myself am a developer and not a designer. I prefer tools such as Aptana, ASDT for flash (eclipse plugin), and the GIMP over the proprietary counterparts (yeah, tired of the constant BSODs and went M$ free in 2002). There is a major difference between the developer and a designer. A designer (in my opinion) is someone who focuses more on the aesthetics and only becomes as strong (or as lazy) as their tools can afford them. Why does a developer (people who get paid and have experience) have to have a crutch and become dependent upon such tools? Is it a matter of convenience/laziness? Or is it a lack of education and what you know is all that the tool can do for you? Just because you have a copy of Photoshop or Dreamweaver doesn't entitle you to be on a professional level. I wouldn't take anyone seriously who claims they know just HTML, Javascript and CSS (or just saying they can use dreamweaver) seriously as a developer or code monkey unless they can write it from scratch. Even still, only knowing the client-side of web development is childish of someone claiming to be a developer. I wrote web pages back in 1996 when HTML 3.2 was in and once tools like frontpage became mainstream, the market was flooded by a bunch of newbs, so I migrated to the server-side to survive and got more out of life. A developer has to know how the overall picture works together in concert and not just throwing in a bunch of prefab code snippets provided by some app (with sometimes unnecessary and bloated markup). I understand the industry is up adobe's butt since they acquired macromedia but why should any serious developer? one thing that I love about linux is that i have a choice and no matter what i do, there are standards. tcp/ip, smtp, etc. If the standards from the w3c are freely available, it doesn't matter what tool I use to deploy a web based solution and do I need to shell out money for it? Of course not. That's what differentiates me from my peers. I actually have a choice and stick by it. Just like all of you who use ubuntu. Some may have other reasons to have switched. I am somewhat of a masochist that likes to do things the hard way but it makes you that much stronger. If you've got a deadline on a project, keep around your own templates and libraries and don't be locked into some framework or app that you have become too dependant upon to hold your hand. But seriously... as I mentioned earlier, I'm a developer... not a designer. When developing internal applications for my clients, professionally, open source works PERFECTLY for me. As the saying goes...there are many ways to skin a cat.

(hope this doesn't hurt anyone's feelings but i'm tired of people claiming to be something they are not. only you who read this, know your own truths and have to live with yourselves.)

(sorry, please completely disregard unless you find some relevance) ;) I had to vent...

[Samhain13]

^ "Design" in this context can be somewhat misunderstood. A quick search from Google will give us:


* the act of working out the form of something ;
* plan: make or work out a plan for ;
* design something for a specific role or purpose or effect ;
* an arrangement scheme ;


...it's a long page.

Although one will find there that a strong relationship between "design" and "aesthetic" exists, a lot of us designers have, at one time or another, think that the two terms are synonymous when they are not. Related but not the same.

I agree that web development and web design are two separate entitles. And I further agree that simply being able to write one's own HTML, CSS, etc. code does not make one a web developer-- for the reason that HTML, CSS, etc. fall under the realm of web design.

However, even in web development (or in any other kind of development), design is still a requirement. But according to the definitions that we find, this design requirement may not have anything to do with aesthetics but with the structure and purpose of what is being developed.

Aside:
Here's an interesting definition of web design that I found in
http://www.best-web-design.com/definitions.html:


web design: The arrangement and creation of web pages that in turn make up a web site. There are many aspects to this process, and due to the rapid development of the Internet, new aspects are continually being added. As far as business oriented web sites go, the basics currently consist of (in order of importance):
a) The "visibility" of the site on the Internet, particularly within the major Search Engines.
b) The informational value of the site, from its target public's point of view.
c) The aesthetic / professional appearance of the pages.


A Wikipedia entry is also available here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_design

Happy reading. :D

[graigsmith]

i dont have a problem just using gimp for that kind of stuff.

people dont run into problems using gimp for stuff for the web.

we run into problems with gimp when we need to design something that's going to be printed. though, the newest version of gimp actually has color profile support. so.. i guess you could use it for print stuff. :)

[Auria]

Oh no, not another PS vs GIMP flamewar...

[Ralphie]

I voted:
I run CS3 on Ubuntu w/out Windows and can post/link a how-to

but it is not entirely true. It was just the closest to what I have for people.

As someone looking to be a professional designer, I am somewhat obligated to use the top programs, and own CS3.

Switiching to Linux was always something very hard, I've always wanted to, but I would do some Dual boot to use Adobe software, and lull and behold I would never boot into linux. It just wanst worth the fuss, switiching to linux to browse the web and goof around, then back into windows for adobe -- so I just stayed in Windows.

Anyways, here has been my solution and I am quite happy with it!

Currently I am running Ubuntu 7.10, and CS3 within a Windows XP guest, under VirtualBox 1.5.2
(http://virtualbox.org/)

With VirtualBox I am able to seamlessly integrate Windows onto my ubuntu desktop, and then run any CS3 program I please. SEE THIS THREAD (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=3607362#post3607362) For a tutorial that i just updated.
and this thread (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=564848&page=4) for some more talk about it.

To run CS3 this way you should have a good amount of RAM and an alright processor, too. If you meet the criteria, you are stoked. Now I can say that I have pretty much "made the switch" only booting into my VM when wanting to run CS3.

p.s. the minimum ram amounts you should set while setting up VirtualBox are at least 512 MB of main RAM, and 64 MB of video RAM.
Or CS3 will not install.

[lyceum]

Thanks to everyone that posted. I got some great info for my paper. :)

[immolat3]

i use cs3 on my xp partition and gimp and the like on my linux partition. cs3 is really slick.

[mikebeecham]

I want to throw my hat in the ring here....

First off...for people who want to make smart-*** one line comments like "Why would I want to use CS3...it's s***" or something like that....

shhhhh, you probably dont know what you're talking about!

I've been using Photoshop for around 8 or so years. it's a software that has enabled me to do so much more than anything else out there. I use it professionally as a graphic designer, and it allows me to do so much.

Now, recently I have moved over to linux, probably for the same reasons as most of you on the forums...I've looked at the very real issue that CS3 is not available at the moment on a linux platform...so what are my choices?


I could backward step to CS2 and run it through wine...not a bad choice if it were not for the fact that there is functionality I use in CS3 that is not there in CS2.
I could use Gimp...been there and tried that. It's not an issue of "Gimp is not as good as CS3 for X reasons" The reality is, for a professional designer GIMP is not an option. For one, it does not have native CMYK which, for those who work with print know it's essential
Try and use CS3 through a virtual machine...again, not an option as there is WAY too much mouse lag in VMware...not tried the others...I simply could not do anything professionally with mouse lag
Dual Boot with XP


Unfortunately, for the moment, I think I (along with many others) are going to have to stick with a dual boot machine, which kinda negates the reason for trying to get away from Windows in the first place.

I would fully and wholeheartedly support anyone who would work on native windows applications support OR getting CS3 to run under wine.

Oh, and for those people that say that they do not see a need to use Bloatware, overpriced Adobe products...I have to say this. You're either not a professional designer, who earns money from it, or you dont care about your end product. The reason Adobe charge so much IS because Photoshop is simply the best software out there to do the job.

I'm not an Adobe advocate in any sense...it's just a fact!

[lyceum]

I could backward step to CS2 and run it through wine...not a bad choice if it were not for the fact that there is functionality I use in CS3 that is not there in CS2.
I could use Gimp...been there and tried that. It's not an issue of "Gimp is not as good as CS3 for X reasons" The reality is, for a professional designer GIMP is not an option. For one, it does not have native CMYK which, for those who work with print know it's essential
Try and use CS3 through a virtual machine...again, not an option as there is WAY too much mouse lag in VMware...not tried the others...I simply could not do anything professionally with mouse lag
Dual Boot with XP



You can also do what I plan to do... buy a Mac and dual boot. I am sick of adding numbers to the MS stats and their wallets, so I am showing it with my wallet. Next time you buy a computer, get a Mac. I want to get a Dell and put my money into Ubuntu, but I do need CS3 and Dell does not offer the laptop I want, Ubuntu with a 17" monitor. To bad Mac's don't come dual booted :)

[mikebeecham]

found the answer...and it was right here on the forums...

VMware was WAY too laggy for me to use, but I tried virtualbox on full screen, and it's EXCELLENT.

I have my CS3 running on XP Pro SP2 through Virtualbox on my seconday monitor...and there's no lag and NO difference with booting into XP proper.

I may have found the reason to dump my windows install now and migrate 100%

[lyceum]

found the answer...and it was right here on the forums...

VMware was WAY too laggy for me to use, but I tried virtualbox on full screen, and it's EXCELLENT.

I have my CS3 running on XP Pro SP2 through Virtualbox on my seconday monitor...and there's no lag and NO difference with booting into XP proper.

I may have found the reason to dump my windows install now and migrate 100%

That is awesome! I am going to have to check out VirtualBox.

My question is, If you buy a Mac and install Ubuntu, can you use VirtualBox, or some other program to run Leopard in Ubuntu? :confused: I would not like to run XP, as I would still have to give $$'s to MS, and they have enough.

[smartboyathome]

I think you can, but haven't tried it, so I wouldn't know. Try creating a new virtual machine with Virtualbox and see if there is an option for macs.

[mikebeecham]

Lyceum...

Actually, i dont think you can at the moment. I'm really not sure that support for Mac OSX has been added.

No doubt there will be support for it at some stage in the future....but lets face it...when you have an OS as nice as Linux...why would you want Mac?

:D

[sethvath]

I just heard the joke of the day. Nice try mikebeecham :D

[lyceum]

Lyceum...

Actually, i dont think you can at the moment. I'm really not sure that support for Mac OSX has been added.

No doubt there will be support for it at some stage in the future....but lets face it...when you have an OS as nice as Linux...why would you want Mac?

:D

I feel that FOSS has beat MS into the ground. Their Office suit is all they can really call #1. With IBM joining OOo, we will see how long that will last. When it comes to art, Mac's have it. I have read that programs that blow FOSS away on Mac will not run as well on Windows (not talking about CS3 here). As an artist, Mac is the way to go, for now. I plan to use both, until FOSS catches up. We beat MS, for ease of use and better programs (firefox vs IE 7, etc...). Mac will be next. The Adobe will make CS(#) for Ubuntu. As much as I want to go all Ubuntu, I still need to eat, and people want Flash on their sites. Thanks for the info though.

[mikebeecham]

I just heard the joke of the day. Nice try mikebeecham :D

Sorry that you feel it was a joke...I have CS3 running on VirtualBox on Gutsy Gibbon....the difference between vmware and virtualbox afaik is that with Virtualbox you get true full screen with no mouse lag (unike VMware).

So I have my linux desktop still available on my left monitor, with XP running on my right monitor with CS3 running flawlessly.

I can provide screenshots if you want, but you only have tyo search back through this thread and visit the links, and there is a guy who tells you how to do it.!

[ares623]

I'm a Flash web designer/developer.. If Flash CS3 worked on Ubuntu/Linux, I wouldn't have second thoughts on going back to Windows.
I've just been using Ubuntu for a few weeks and I'm loving it.. I just miss CS3 and maybe some games.. :(

[lyceum]

I'm a Flash web designer/developer.. If Flash CS3 worked on Ubuntu/Linux, I wouldn't have second thoughts on going back to Windows.
I've just been using Ubuntu for a few weeks and I'm loving it.. I just miss CS3 and maybe some games.. :(

Try Virtualbox, mikebeecham says (in an above posting) it works great, no lag. You can have your Ubuntu and your CS3 too. :)

[mikebeecham]

having worked with CS3 through Virtualbox for about a week or so now, i can tell you that it works 98% as well as logging into windows.

There is a SLIGHT lag, which is only just noticeable in my opinion, but I'm not sure it bad enough to send me back to windows to do some work...it's fine really.

I guess it's also down to how powerful your rig is. I used to be a hardcore gamer, so my rig is quite powerful...people on lesser machines may struggle. saying that, people on lesser machines would possibly struggle using CS3 anyway...go figure!!!

[lyceum]

having worked with CS3 through Virtualbox for about a week or so now, i can tell you that it works 98% as well as logging into windows.

There is a SLIGHT lag, which is only just noticeable in my opinion, but I'm not sure it bad enough to send me back to windows to do some work...it's fine really.

I guess it's also down to how powerful your rig is. I used to be a hardcore gamer, so my rig is quite powerful...people on lesser machines may struggle. saying that, people on lesser machines would possibly struggle using CS3 anyway...go figure!!!

If you don't mind me asking, what do you have in you PC? Processor, memory, etc..? I am looking to do this with a MacBook Pro next year and want to be sure I have one up to par.