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ade234uk
October 5th, 2007, 07:47 AM
They have had it good for the last 15 years but do you think the good times are up for them? They cant seem to do anything right which sorry to be nasty, I love this fact.

As a webdesigner I am slowly finding things that are incompatable with IE, but work properly in Firefox.

Now 5 years ago things would work in IE but not Mozilla and everyone would say Mozilla was ****. At this time I thought it was a nice browser but stuck with IE.

I have managed to convert a handful of users to Firefox and they love it.

A girl at work used IE all the time, for putting products on Ebay. I told her to use Firefox so she tried it and said it was more difficult to list. After a few more goes with it, she is actually starting to use it and prefers it. And now there is an ebay edition for Firefox, I have probably converted another user.

As regards Vista, I only know of two people that are actually using it. Yet I know of 3-4 other people that have immediately removed it from their PC, calling it a piece crap.

Then you hear about people moving to Linux and Apple, slowly but is happening.

So this has got to be good for the future of computing.

frup
October 5th, 2007, 08:37 AM
Now if only apple use x11 instead of making a frankenstein OS so that developers could essentially create apps for 10% of the computing population easily.

toupeiro
October 5th, 2007, 08:49 AM
You really have a few things happening at the same time:

1. you have Vista failing to deliver in the eyes of the customer
2. a customer base tired of dealing with all the Microsoft vulnerabilities
3. more awareness and movements towards alternative choice in OSes like OS-X and Linux based Os'es.

I think Microsoft is realizing the loss taking place in the desktop market, yes. From a worldwide perspective, it is clear that people want the utilization of their computers to shift back towards end user innovation and not towards vendor fluff and control.

The biggest point in their hypocrisy though, I feel, comes in the server world. Long time Admins will remember the NT4.0 - Windows 2000 movement. The introduction of "Press ctrl-alt-del to login" to attempt to patch a blatantly vulnerable GUI, and the concept of a GUI core operating system, not a GUI on top of a CLI OS. Microsoft believed this was the wave of the server future.

However, in todays world they are now releasing this... (http://www.microsoft.com/windowsserver2008/servercore.mspx)

Its ironic how they have to "take steps back" in order to try to move forward. The only way Windows can become stable and invulnerable enough to compete with UNIX and Linux in the server world is to .. not make it windows anymore. Simply put, in the desktop world, they will not return to CLI OS. Their next-gen (now current-gen) OS is bloat beyond bloat and is so far away from CLI power and enablement that it would be a full reinvention of their desktop product.

On a plus to this now, there is an opportunity for a level playing ground on the server end of things: one which I am willing to open-mindedly challenge both sides.. Who can provide a more stable and secure CLI OS? My money is still on linux. Microsoft is returning to a CLI model, so if their vulnerabilities were truly in the GUI and the internet browser, this will be the mythbuster. Personally, if you refer to telnet and security on the same website, you need to RTFM a bit more...


Linux versus MS-DOS 2008

Calling it like it is,

tcoffeep
October 5th, 2007, 08:52 AM
Call me crazy, but I'd love to see MS-DOS come back. I loved it!!

the.dark.lord
October 5th, 2007, 08:58 AM
Call me crazy, but I'd love to see MS-DOS come back. I loved it!!

You're crazy!!! and shouldn't have been let out from the madhouse :)

toupeiro
October 5th, 2007, 08:58 AM
I did too. :) half the stuff I did in windows that moved me up the ladder in my career was stuff I learned in DOS that I applied to a windows network environment.

No CLI which Microsoft has ever created has given you the abilities a UNIX/Linux shell has. I think MS bringing a CLI OS back is a smart move, but I dont think it gives them an edge back until we see what you can do with it.

treis
October 5th, 2007, 09:02 AM
Vista may suck ***, but it's still running on millions and millions more home/work computers than all flavors of Linux combined.

Kowalski_GT-R
October 5th, 2007, 09:06 AM
I'm starting to consider the fact that we are a bunch of exigent users.

I know lots of people which are resigned to XP sluggishness and flaws. Presented an alternative solution they react: "oh, really? didn't know that", and then change subject, because in the end they're not interested at all.

I can see MS losing a fair share of the market though.
Many pc vendors are preferring XP to Vista, and alternatives are obvious in my eyes.
Let Canonical make some more agreements to bundle Ubuntu, and I think we're quite there.

competition can't be a bad thing....

toupeiro
October 5th, 2007, 09:09 AM
Vista may suck ***, but it's still running on millions and millions more home/work computers than all flavors of Linux combined.


Thats like telling someone giving you nicotine gum "smoking may kill you, but there are still millions and millions of people doing it"


what /exactly/ is your point?

Kowalski:
I agree with you. Linux may not be on as many desktops as windows it today, and their is a definite existance of complacency with windows, but that all shifts in due time. Windows also has quite a headstart and holds way more contract agreements with hardware vendors. Give linux time, what they've done in a few short years is remarkable, and their increase in the desktop and server world with the MS dominance and the amount of time MS had to build that dominance shows that the business and end user market is ready for a change :)

FranMichaels
October 5th, 2007, 09:29 AM
Call me crazy, but I'd love to see MS-DOS come back. I loved it!!

You're crazy ;)
But if you must, it's DOS sans the MS :KS
http://www.freedos.org/

If you loved the games and such, this is the way to run it :D
http://dosbox.sourceforge.net/

Enjoy!

As for the main thread topic, the tide is shifting when you can pick which OS you want to use, and find software running on multiple platforms and architectures. :razz:

treis
October 5th, 2007, 09:50 AM
Thats like telling someone giving you nicotine gum "smoking may kill you, but there are still millions and millions of people doing it"


what /exactly/ is your point?


My point is that Microsoft is still kicking *** and taking names.

sstusick
October 5th, 2007, 10:07 AM
My point is that Microsoft is still kicking *** and taking names.
And? Doesn't mean Windows is any good.

mivo
October 5th, 2007, 10:15 AM
When XP was released, people were unhappy with its performance (and hardware requirements), too. There were plenty of issues. I agree that Linux awareness has increased, though I think it is far more likely that people will stick with XP than to seriously consider moving to Linux. They are familiar with it, they have their software and their games, and their hardware is supported (may be supported in Linux too, but are they sure of it?).

See the article in my signature for another take on the reasons (the article is not by me).

terry_gardener
October 5th, 2007, 10:39 AM
i think more and more people are getting fed up of Microsoft and are looking for alternatives. ie linux and mac osx.

The only way i think windows will lose some of the monopoly of the OS is to force manufactures to starts shipping the pc without a os (which will put alot of people of buying them) or giving the customer a choice of OS when buying them.

must people only use windows because of some of these reasons.

1. it is already on the system
2. they are use to it and don't like change
3. game support (direct x) must game vendors make it for windows/direct x
4. it is more likely that there know someone with windows that could help them if they get stuck with something.

that's just my opinions.

toupeiro
October 5th, 2007, 06:42 PM
Microsoft is actually .. not .. kicking *** and taking names. They are riding pre-install contracts made years ago before the spike of desktop linux interest. And, they are losing steam pretty seriously in the business world as well. Nobody is "excited" about the next-gen microsoft solutions. In fact, most businesses dread their implementation. I just moved a huge service based solution from windows to linux last year because the windows server boxes couldn't handle it. Not only was the transition painless, the configuration was worlds easier. Its project stories like this which have opened a lot of eyes in business, and those business people also take that home with them.

The only thing Microsoft is doing is riding on their historical dominance. They haven't kicked any *** in quite a few years.

I do, however, like their keyboards and mice. (http://www.microsoft.com/hardware/mouseandkeyboard/ProductDetails.aspx?pid=057)

bonzodog
October 5th, 2007, 07:49 PM
Also, Current stats suggest that Vista take up is still way lower than known Linux desktop usage.

Ubuntu alone has 2 million users.
Fedora is about another million.
Suse is possibly in the 1-2 million area.

Thats 5 million Linux desktop users without even thinking about it.
Stats for linux usage are easier to get now that people are using centralised Repo servers, all the servers are doing is recording the number of unique IP's logging in.

Vista meanwhile was last quoted at between 1 - 2 million users, not climbing.

Many people are buying vista machines, and downgrading to Xp.

treis
October 5th, 2007, 08:04 PM
And? Doesn't mean Windows is any good.

I never said it was. This thread asks if Microsoft is finally losing, and the answer is that they are not. They still are in a dominant market position, and it doesn't look like that's going to change.

smartboyathome
October 5th, 2007, 08:29 PM
I got this from another article (cant remember which one), but Microsoft has made people dependant on Windows, and it is going to be a rough battle to break that dependancy (it will be harder than the first OS wars, that is for sure).

joecool362
October 5th, 2007, 08:38 PM
Personally I think Microsoft and most anything they make is !@#$ think of it this way microsoft office 07 is like 50 bucks and open office is free and open office is just about the same quality next point Ubuntu is free and with free support groups and forums where as windows is 100 bucks or more and Ubuntu is the same or better! and ubuntu is FREE!!!
so to my mind microsoft is going down if ubuntu can pull itself together and make it more "user friendly".8-)

n3tfury
October 5th, 2007, 10:15 PM
Personally I think Microsoft and most anything they make is !@#$ think of it this way microsoft office 07 is like 50 bucks and open office is free and open office is just about the same quality next point Ubuntu is free and with free support groups and forums where as windows is 100 bucks or more and Ubuntu is the same or better! and ubuntu is FREE!!!
so to my mind microsoft is going down if ubuntu can pull itself together and make it more "user friendly".8-)

open office MAY be "just about the same quality" for a home user, but not for business. one day you'll see what i mean.

there are plenty of windows forums too, just not official. you can find help when you need it.

ahaslam
October 6th, 2007, 12:47 AM
Are Microsoft finally losing?
I'd wait 'till 2009 to ask that ;)

jrusso2
October 6th, 2007, 01:04 AM
Also, Current stats suggest that Vista take up is still way lower than known Linux desktop usage.

Ubuntu alone has 2 million users.
Fedora is about another million.
Suse is possibly in the 1-2 million area.

Thats 5 million Linux desktop users without even thinking about it.
Stats for linux usage are easier to get now that people are using centralised Repo servers, all the servers are doing is recording the number of unique IP's logging in.

Vista meanwhile was last quoted at between 1 - 2 million users, not climbing.

Many people are buying vista machines, and downgrading to Xp.

Microsoft announced sales of 60 million copies of Vista

http://www.vnunet.com/itweek/news/2195175/microsoft-ships-million-vista

SuperDuck
October 6th, 2007, 01:23 AM
I think that we all have some anecdotal evidence of more and more people being open minded in terms of using Firefox, Ubuntu, and other non-Microsoft and non-Apple products. I think it's great and we should still keep sending the good news around the globe.

The way I see it, though, (and this is just one guy talking, mind you) Microsoft isn't in any immediate danger.

Why? Everyone's looking at home computers and forgetting about the big kahuna: Business. I work for a large international company with several thousand employees. Specifically, I work in engineering. We use PC's and Windows. End of story. We have literally thousands of workstations, all of which run Windows. There are _maybe_ ten UNIX machines that were used with archaic data acquisition programs, but that's about it. (Though I have to admit that our graphics & advertising people probably use Macs; I don't know, I've never been there.)

If I walked into our IS department and said "We should use an OS that is NOT Windows", I would be laughed out of the building.

Because we're a large company I get to deal with and interface with people from _other_ incredibly large companies, including the Big 3 in Detroit as well as software and hardware suppliers.

We all run Windows. It's not likely to change in the immediate future. Changing individual desktops is one thing, but I just can't see Linux (or even OS-X) breaking into the huge cogs of Big Business any time soon.

gn2
October 6th, 2007, 02:09 AM
Microsoft OS's will remain dominant until the major PC and laptop manufacturers start to offer a choice of OS.

Dell have started the ball rolling with Ubuntu available as an option, I believe that they will soon demand that all their hardware partners produce open-source drivers for their products.

Dell are big, but all the others will have to join in before MS has some serious competition.

Another very interesting development is the fact that Sony Playstation 3 consoles will run Linux, this is major news that hasn't quite broken through.
Sony could do a lot more to promote the PS3 as a PC replacement.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSP9b4Qcu4M

enopepsoo
October 6th, 2007, 02:11 AM
I don't really care if they are losing (whatever that is supposed to mean). They lost me. I never wanted to be a MSer though, I just was by default.

gn2
October 6th, 2007, 02:23 AM
A friend of mine works for a company developing global positioning solutions for controlling support boats and oil installations in the North Sea.
It's all done with Linux.

European governments are switching to Linux.
http://www.pcadvisor.co.uk/news/index.cfm?newsid=7687

American_Outcast
October 6th, 2007, 02:24 AM
I use windows for a few games only. I actually log into XP maybe once or twice a week at the very most.

Win or loose Microsoft lost me as well. I know a couple of people that are using Vista and, well, I can't really post the language they use when talking about it, lol. If someone really needs a Windows OS I will tell them to stick with XP only.

I wonder if Microsoft's numbers are a bit inflated? 60 Million copies of Vista, but how many where forced on people when they bought a new computer. How many of those people got rid of Vista and installed XP. How many of those people regretted buying Vista and threw it in their microwave. I think the next version of Windows will say a lot about how comfortable people are with buying this OS from Microsoft.

skirkpatrick
October 6th, 2007, 02:51 AM
After some long discussions at my new employer (they make control systems for the wood products industry), we are moving away from Windows and MS development systems. Everything had been written to run on an embedded PC on XP using VB6 and Visual Studio. Now that MS is going End Of Life on those development environments and it's practically impossible to migrate the VB6 stuff to VB .NET and we don't know how much longer we're going to be able to get XP, we're moving to Linux as the OS (with Windows were necessary because of PLC drivers) and using GCC and wxWidgets and python for cross-platform development.

Incense
October 6th, 2007, 03:35 AM
Microsoft announced sales of 60 million copies of Vista

http://www.vnunet.com/itweek/news/2195175/microsoft-ships-million-vista

I wonder how many of those were

A. Rolled back to XP

or

B. Overtaken by a Linux Distro

I'm sure more A then B, but I've read enough to know Vista is driving a number of people to Open systems....or a Mac.

EDIT: Looks like American_Outcast already said this. Good times.

Quillz
October 6th, 2007, 03:38 AM
Microsoft is actually doing better than ever. Anyone who seriously believes that Microsoft is "going downhill" has absolutely no idea what they are talking about. After Windows and Office, Microsoft gets the bulk of its revenue for the hundreds, if not thousands, of deals it has with major corporations around the world. And absolutely no one else can even touch Microsoft when it comes to such deals. Perhaps fewer end users are buying Windows PCs, but that hasn't historically been where the money is to begin with.

Depressed Man
October 6th, 2007, 03:41 AM
Microsoft is actually doing better than ever. Anyone who seriously believes that Microsoft is "going downhill" has absolutely no idea what they are talking about. After Windows and Office, Microsoft gets the bulk of its revenue for the hundreds, if not thousands, of deals it has with major corporations around the world. And absolutely no one else can even touch Microsoft when it comes to such deals. Perhaps fewer end users are buying Windows PCs, but that hasn't historically been where the money is to begin with.

Depends on what you mean by deals. If you mean preinstallation. Then companies (at least Dell) are starting to slowly make a move towards offering a choice between Windows and Linux.

And if anything happens with the EU's thinktank regarding the bundling of operating systems..

Well it'll be interesting to see what happens at least.

Overbyte
October 6th, 2007, 03:44 AM
That's 60 million copies *sold*...
That doesn't mean those 60 million are used...or people are forced to use...darn Microsoft.
And I probably bet almost all of it is preloaded into desktops and laptops.

Heck I once had 10 copies of Windows 98, Bootlegged Edition (in one of those Mickey Mouse CD-Rs). Kinda guilty, so I switched to something *really* free :)
And they complain about software piracy...look at how the Server 2003 Datacenter Edition costs...then look at a LAMP setup using Debian :)


Another very interesting development is the fact that Sony Playstation 3 consoles will run Linux
I've read somewhere in a 1995 edition of BYTE magazine that the original Playstation ran on a lightweight version of UNIX...

gigaferz
October 6th, 2007, 03:58 AM
finally some sense here...
dontget me wrong i really like ubuntu and everything...but...it is a microsoft world..

will it change???

maybe..in 20 years when the majority of the population achievess a ""power user""" level of knowledge..

but that is not all......

honestly the only thing that could bring down -the dominance- of ms over the millions of computers outthere..is an incredible virus/trojan/malware that could destroy all the windos installations out there...and during the chaos people will look for alternatives...but the damage would be terrible...

an option would be web based apps...but....we could go on an on...

lets just enjoy the fact we are not target of any malware and that we can accomplish soo much for free...(lol i didnt pay for windows either,,was installed already)

ps:
is just a few days more before the next release..looks awesome!!!

Frak
October 6th, 2007, 03:58 AM
That's 60 million copies *sold*...
That doesn't mean those 60 million are used...or people are forced to use...darn Microsoft.
And I probably bet almost all of it is preloaded into desktops and laptops.

Heck I once had 10 copies of Windows 98, Bootlegged Edition (in one of those Mickey Mouse CD-Rs). Kinda guilty, so I switched to something *really* free :)
And they complain about software piracy...look at how the Server 2003 Datacenter Edition costs...then look at a LAMP setup using Debian :)


I've read somewhere in a 1995 edition of BYTE magazine that the original Playstation ran on a lightweight version of UNIX...
More specific System V UNIX

Quillz
October 6th, 2007, 03:59 AM
That's 60 million copies *sold*...
That doesn't mean those 60 million are used...or people are forced to use...darn Microsoft.
And I probably bet almost all of it is preloaded into desktops and laptops.

Heck I once had 10 copies of Windows 98, Bootlegged Edition (in one of those Mickey Mouse CD-Rs). Kinda guilty, so I switched to something *really* free :)
And they complain about software piracy...look at how the Server 2003 Datacenter Edition costs...then look at a LAMP setup using Debian :)


I've read somewhere in a 1995 edition of BYTE magazine that the original Playstation ran on a lightweight version of UNIX...
And what difference does it make to Microsoft at all? All Microsoft cares about is sales, they are a for-profit corporation. Why should they care whether they're used or not? They got the money they sought, that's all that's important.

DoctorMO
October 6th, 2007, 04:07 AM
honestly the only thing that could bring down -the dominance- of ms over the millions of computers outthere

See this is why people vote for idiots in elections. Stop listening to the cool-aid driven gunk coming out of these companies and start thinking for a second. 1) What holds linux back is a) fear and b) acceptance 2) Microsoft can only put so much fear into people before they accept linux 3) Microsoft have managed to create a new generation of disaffected users who are not just actively looking else where but more often become active in installing it on lots of machines.

There is a lot more secondary installation of ubuntu going on than I have seen in any previous linux waves; normal people who operate at a slightly higher tech level are starting to defeat the fear through sheer frustration with windows.

All we have to do as a community is make sure that there are not as many frustrations with ubuntu and we will see market share grow, we only need 10% of the market to ritualistically impact the industry mind share, and hardware manufacturers are already starting to employ more linux developers.

FranMichaels
October 6th, 2007, 04:08 AM
And what difference does it make to Microsoft at all? All Microsoft cares about is sales, they are a for-profit corporation. Why should they care whether they're used or not? They got the money they sought, that's all that's important.

They should care about the customer, otherwise he or she will look elsewhere. I know I did.

toupeiro
October 6th, 2007, 04:11 AM
the number of 60 million is not 'off the shelf'. the LARGEST part of that figure has to do with contracts microsoft made well before Vista was released, guaranteeing a sale to vendors like Dell and HP who will turn it around and make profit off the wholesale cost to them from the end user.

The remarks saying microsoft are doing better than ever are just false, and anyone who knows how to follow long term technology trends will see this. They are riding off old momentum and contracts. There is so much apprehension behind Microsoft's next-gen solutions in the business world.

How many people remember the company SGI? The only thing that kept SGI alive so long was the same contractual arrangements that Microsoft currently has. SGI began to get outclassed and outperformed at a fraction of the cost, because of their business model. If you go back to 1995, in SGI's prime, and look at their sales, stock and earnings, you would struggle to say that ten years later they would be close to bankruptcy. I am not suggesting Microsoft is heading towards bankruptcy, but I am suggesting that innovation no longer drives their products, and it was innovation that made them. This is, and will be why they will lose their worldwide dominance.

I don't care how many pre-existing contracts Microsoft has to manipulate their sales statistics. I care about how many people feel cheated for spending hundreds of dollars on vista and have less productivity to show for it.

Overbyte
October 6th, 2007, 04:18 AM
They got the money they sought, that's all that's important.

...by forcing Windows into the throats (and hard disks) of hapless consumers who "just want a computer that works" a.k.a. "pre-loaded software" :lolflag:

Go Dell, go Dell! I wish more companies would take this initiative.

treis
October 6th, 2007, 04:26 AM
See this is why people vote for idiots in elections. Stop listening to the cool-aid driven gunk coming out of these companies and start thinking for a second. 1) What holds linux back is a) fear and b) acceptance 2) Microsoft can only put so much fear into people before they accept linux 3)

That's not really true. Companies use Windows because MS Office is still superior to Open Office. All of their documents are in MS format, which OO can't read with 100% reliability. There is also a ton of commercial applications and proprietary software that is Windows only.

gigaferz
October 6th, 2007, 04:38 AM
Doctor Mo
sheesh...sorry!!!

but...if you are high leve programmer and you have a family , obiously you need a paycheck or some kind of income , right???

Will you work for free?????

Most likely you would ending up developing software for windows....
I dont really fear microsof or any company...only the government (lol(seriously thou))t...what are you talking about?

do you mean those aol commercials about security??? or the worse ones the "geeksquad" ones...i really cant believe it either... but the same way a mechanic tells you ..""mmhh, that noise is probably the transmission..blah ,,blah blah...it s gonna cost you $700,)
that is kinda scary...
as far as I know, and ive seen, people just want to turn on the pc and print pictures,chat, maybe play a game and mange their music....
they dont care about anything else,,,it just works...

I set up a ubuntu for a friend,,and he likes it, but he was willing to actually pay for XP!!!

is just ignorance about computers.... the same way I do not know about laws, or medicine...im not insulting anybody here (besides,i dont know a lot about computers either)

happy ubuntuing.....

(but if i only had the knowledge..mmhh...)

please Everybody do not turn this thread like the ones at zdnet... lets just keep it cool and see the reality....

newbie2
October 6th, 2007, 06:48 AM
Security expert Bruce Schneier today wrote about the “Storm Worm” again. Go and read it and become very afraid if you are running the Windows operating system. Become even more afraid if you are responsible for a bunch of them, like in a company. And then get a clue and morph them all into something better, like installing any of the Linux/Unix/BSD variants.

The so-called “Storm Worm” is spreading since this year, and Bruce admits that in fact nobody knows exactly what’s going on, and what to do against or about it. Estimates of infected machines range from 1 to 50 million computers worldwide. Bruce has very good links in his article, so if you’re the responsible IT guy in your company, be sure to follow and read them all.

You just have tocome to the same conclusion like I did: stop running Windows - as fast as you possibly can. And then go and warn others to do the same. Windows is defeated - its days are over. It carries the worm inside. So whatever will happen next: RIP, Windows.

http://wolfgang.lonien.de/?p=456
:rolleyes:

bonzodog
October 6th, 2007, 08:59 AM
I am hoping that the EU law gets pushed through, forcing OEM's to unbundle windows.
I can see Linux being a much more European thing than the US.
In Europe and Asia, Linux usage is growing massively, and it's more a matter of time before it gets to level market share with MS. Not a case of if but when.
The US market is going to take a long time to push, as a lot of Americans feel it would be wrong to let down one of their own companies.

n3tfury
October 6th, 2007, 09:21 AM
...by forcing Windows into the throats (and hard disks) of hapless consumers who "just want a computer that works"

um. which they do.


http://wolfgang.lonien.de/?p=456
:rolleyes:

rolleyes is right. these "insights" from haters make me laugh.

Quillz
October 6th, 2007, 09:56 AM
They should care about the customer, otherwise he or she will look elsewhere. I know I did.
Most corporations don't care about individuals until those individuals launch class action lawsuits.

daverich
October 6th, 2007, 10:52 AM
i have to admit I never knew how good linux was.

I think that's a bigger problem.

Once people know they can use office, email and internet on a free,stable and safer os then I'm sure people will switch.

What linux needs is a decent TV ad campaign - but then being free I doubt it'll ever get it.

Kind regards

Dave Rich

gn2
October 6th, 2007, 10:53 AM
I've read somewhere in a 1995 edition of BYTE magazine that the original Playstation ran on a lightweight version of UNIX...

Wouldn't surprise me.
There was a Linux add-on for the PS2 but not all machines were compatible with it.

The PS3 has the facility to install a second OS already built in to it's menu and was developed to be able to run Linux.

The silence from Sony regarding this feature is unbelievable.
Surely if people were made aware that a PS3 could be a viable replacement for a PC would seriously boost sales.
Turns it from being an expensive console to a cheap multi-function device.

gn2
October 6th, 2007, 11:00 AM
a lot of Americans feel it would be wrong to let down one of their own companies.

Perhaps Microsoft should bring out a "Patriot" version for the US market with lots of stars and stripes branding.

Useful features could include a system for preventing any non american software from being installed, and an internet monitor to prevent anything subversive or un-american being displayed on the screen.

This could even be a subscription service with half the proceeds going to the Pentagon.

daverich
October 6th, 2007, 11:09 AM
Perhaps Microsoft should bring out a "Patriot" version for the US market with lots of stars and stripes branding.

Useful features could include a system for preventing any non american software from being installed, and an internet monitor to prevent anything subversive or un-american being displayed on the screen.

This could even be a subscription service with half the proceeds going to the Pentagon.

and don't forget the Jesus loves you screensaver.


ok I'll put away my claws now ;)

Kind regards

Dave Rich

DoctorMO
October 6th, 2007, 04:04 PM
Will you work for free

Most work these days is done for free, it's just never counted on bankers accounts.


That's not really true. Companies use Windows because MS Office is still superior to Open Office. All of their documents are in MS format, which OO can't read with 100% reliability. There is also a ton of commercial applications and proprietary software that is Windows only.

We don't need 100% of the market, nor do we need to satisfy every single little thing before people should try it. Honestly with a good market share linux would have MS Office and all those other proprietary applications but all you want to do is use them as a stick for beating linux.

In truth instead of trying to get those people who will benefit from ubuntu to use it; your suggesting that ubuntu isn't ready for anyone because some people require or have become attached to features not currently available.

All very sad way of thinking, it's true that ubuntu will only ever crush bug one when people stop thinking about defeat all the time.

American_Outcast
October 6th, 2007, 04:27 PM
And there are programs to let people use MS programs if needed in Linux.

With Ubuntu it is very easy to set up Virtual Box or VMware server with Automatix, Synaptic Package manager, etc. CrossOver and Win4Lin are also good to use.

So are very few real excuses not to switch. Only the fear of the different and the pumped up image of how difficult it will be when it really isn't at all.

(Now games are different, but even then there are alternatives that make many Windows games playable on Linux.)

gigaferz
October 6th, 2007, 08:23 PM
Most work these days is done for free

mmhh..last time i was in san jose,,i saw the paper and there were posted a lot of jobs with a very high wage.

Honestly i didntsee one that was telling them something like: we need a software engineer,, $00.00 per hour, 00 per year..call 1800 xxxxxx

so i wonder what would they eat or dress...come on mate, do you work for free???

as far as i know...at least on this side of the world..money runs the world....

lately ive been noticing that many people outthere somewhere are thinking about this like somekind of "revolution"....and im pretty sure many of them just bought a 360...lol..

Frak
October 6th, 2007, 08:28 PM
mmhh..last time i was in san jose,,i saw the paper and there were posted a lot of jobs with a very high wage.

Honestly i didntsee one that was telling them something like: we need a software engineer,, $00.00 per hour, 00 per year..call 1800 xxxxxx

so i wonder what would they eat or dress...come on mate, do you work for free???

as far as i know...at least on this side of the world..money runs the world....

lately ive been noticing that many people outthere somewhere are thinking about this like somekind of "revolution"....and im pretty sure many of them just bought a 360...lol..
I see a model as advertising, support, and paid programmers based on need.

A company advertises support to customers. Customers use program, they call support, company is paid support, and they pay developers to fix the problem.
They cycle continues and people are paid for their effort and the end user gets their problem fixed.

This ensures the end users get good support, software developers can still be paid, and companies can still profit.

Kingsley
October 6th, 2007, 09:53 PM
I see a model as advertising, support, and paid programmers based on need.

A company advertises support to customers. Customers use program, they call support, company is paid support, and they pay developers to fix the problem.
They cycle continues and people are paid for their effort and the end user gets their problem fixed.

This ensures the end users get good support, software developers can still be paid, and companies can still profit.
Wait, which type of consumer would actually want to call up and pay a company to iron out the bugs in software? Household, government, or business customers? I don't see any sense in your proposed model.

toupeiro
October 6th, 2007, 10:17 PM
Most work these days is done for free, it's just never counted on bankers accounts.


We don't need 100% of the market, nor do we need to satisfy every single little thing before people should try it. Honestly with a good market share linux would have MS Office and all those other proprietary applications but all you want to do is use them as a stick for beating linux.

In truth instead of trying to get those people who will benefit from ubuntu to use it; your suggesting that ubuntu isn't ready for anyone because some people require or have become attached to features not currently available.

All very sad way of thinking, it's true that ubuntu will only ever crush bug one when people stop thinking about defeat all the time.

/signed

Frak
October 6th, 2007, 10:39 PM
Wait, which type of consumer would actually want to call up and pay a company to iron out the bugs in software? Household, government, or business customers? I don't see any sense in your proposed model.
I do

If the end user wanted some additional functionality, he/she/it would call up the distributor of the program, and demand the functionality for an additional cost. Since the application wasn't designed for the additional functionality in the first place, the cost is just.

sstusick
October 7th, 2007, 12:30 AM
I do

If the end user wanted some additional functionality, he/she/it would call up the distributor of the program, and demand the functionality for an additional cost. Since the application wasn't designed for the additional functionality in the first place, the cost is just.
What planet do you live on?

Frak
October 7th, 2007, 12:36 AM
What planet do you live on?
Zigorge, thanks for asking.

Depressed Man
October 7th, 2007, 12:37 AM
And what difference does it make to Microsoft at all? All Microsoft cares about is sales, they are a for-profit corporation. Why should they care whether they're used or not? They got the money they sought, that's all that's important.

That business model sounds ideal at first. Until you take into account that now you've irritated the consumers which means the next product you'll sell will be wanted even less and less if you keep this model up.

And all you need is one good competitor before it all falls to pieces.

|Eric|
October 7th, 2007, 01:10 AM
Ok i have to post :
im a 7 year tech/admin & i have been in small & large networks
(im no newbie)

linux is ready the world is getting ready now Microsoft just gave us the final momentum : vista

as a technician & network admin it makes no sense to go further with windows you just have to prep people with trainning thats all
Ubuntu installs like a charm (remember no wireless cards in offices usualy) most hardware dont even need additional drivers & linux is already safer in terms of usage & ubuntu just blazes in security & user friendlyness so why a company would actualy pay 200$ per stations just to have windows & another 300$ for M$ Office when they can have it for free ? well its simple: IN HOUSE APPLICATIONS .... thats why ...
personaly i currently work as a consultant for a big companny (tousands of PCs) how much profit would it bring in theire pockets ? i let you do the math ... even if you have to reprogram stuff it just makes sens ...

there goes your $$ argument .... ;) personaly i push /advertise ubuntu to evrybody ... i dont see why not & compared to Other Linux OS Ubuntu rocks Specialy for newbies !.... there goes M$

sstusick
October 7th, 2007, 01:17 AM
What irritates me is, when people say Linux is not ready. Who are you to make that assumption? It is based upon a user's needs. If Linux is not ready for you, then say so. Just don't say "Linux is not ready." There are many, many users who are using Linux and Linux works for them and thus ready.

Frak
October 7th, 2007, 01:20 AM
People who should not be able to say whether "Linux is not ready" are the real begginers. People who haved used it for more than a year (somewhere around 10 for me) should not be able to vote since they have at hand experience, knowledge, and know-how of how most Linux systems work in and out. Begginers have no such knowledge. They are who we should consult.

|Eric|
October 7th, 2007, 01:47 AM
i disagree its not a question of beginners or not its a comparison to other OS mainly windows when i say its ready i mean compared to windows like i said you insert the CD it installs (then in windows you have to reinstall all the hardware....) then install/choose your Applications the there you go ... this is what ready means
my criteria are:
1- OS compatibility with hardware(is there enough drivers for it)
2- OS compatibility with files (whether its the same soft or not if you can view your p*rn you can view it end of story !)
3- User Friendliness (do you have to compile a kernel to view a Mpeg )
4- Support (M$ dosent support unless you $$ btw) online forums & such & search ability

now lets compare
1- M$: every time i install i have to go back & install 4-10 drivers
Lx: it installs pretty much evry drivers exept wireless (wich is proprietary firmware but still there is howtos on doing it.Same in M$)

2- i havnt come across a file that i could not open in linux .... as for windows i have to install & pay $$ for software to use just about every one of them files!

3-pretty much the same for both & wen a soft crashes good old Xkill still works marvels ... not like CTRL ALT DEL ....

4-here i do agree there is more support from microsoft ... joking....
evrything is on the net... google it !


so id say Ubuntu is F**K**G READY so get a clue !

Micro$oft IS loosing ....

sstusick
October 7th, 2007, 01:51 AM
You can compare the OS's all you want. They are 2 different OS's that do things a different way.If they did things the same, what would be the advantage of one over the other?

Frak
October 7th, 2007, 01:57 AM
That's great and all, but there are methods of doing different things. Gedit to edit files, or vim, vi, or pico (editor) which are faster and easier to use if you know what your doing.

For the drivers, people really don't care about having to install drivers upon fresh installation, heck, half of the users don't reinstall anyway. If they happen to have to do so, they pay someone to do it for them or buy a new computer.

File types
People usually don't open .c, .rar, .abc, or .xyz, so it really doesn't matter. Yes Linux can open just about any file, but regular users don't.

XKill
Only if people know its there, ATM, its not appearant.

EDIT
I usually don't like to assume, but I haven't met any "regular", i.e. browse the internet/check email/multimedia crowd that needs that functionality.

Incense
October 7th, 2007, 02:04 AM
You are right, most people don't know/care what OS they are using. In my job I have to ask my customer's what system they are using, and the most popular response is "how do I find out". People just want something that works. Most do not care if it is open or closed, free or "free", or any of that stuff they many linux users concern ourselves with. They just want internet, email, and they are pretty much set.

|Eric|
October 7th, 2007, 02:18 AM
well this is my point you dont have to install any thing to go on the net either on window or on linux so what diff does it make ?

i do "train" my ppl (friends family) on how to keep their PC in shape & that does include instaling drivers & software ... i teach them to fend for themselves so they dont hasle me all the time & thats part of my job too ...

the argument is m$ loosing or not ... id say when i dont have to install any drivers thats a win for me a linux win not M$ ...

(btw it pisses me off that i have to install drivers every time i install a windows... get on the road more you would understand... )

lancest
October 7th, 2007, 02:50 AM
One guy said that the rise of Linux is comparable to internet adoption. Not easy to measure but surely a incredibly powerful force. I don't think you can compare Vista sales directly to Linux which is freely downloaded. At its best Linux is a child of the internet! MS products are commercially marketed. Comparison is not always easy. My next question is how long can XP remain a viable option? What is going to happen after Vista SP1?

Incense
October 7th, 2007, 03:19 AM
My next question is how long can XP remain a viable option? What is going to happen after Vista SP1?

I'm thinking MS is going to fix a lot of the things that are pushing people away from Vista in SP1, and people will forgive them. Remember how bad XP was before SP2? Hmm, I guess it was still pretty bad afterwards, but not as.

FranMichaels
October 7th, 2007, 04:05 AM
I'm thinking MS is going to fix a lot of the things that are pushing people away from Vista in SP1, and people will forgive them. Remember how bad XP was before SP2? Hmm, I guess it was still pretty bad afterwards, but not as.

Hmm... I didn't think XP was so bad... I think it is worse now, and I won't use it due to WGA.

What keeps Windows XP users from upgrading (;))
I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest these

Likely hardware upgrade needed
DRM galore
Price
There is another choice? ^_^
What's wrong with XP? (I think this one is the biggie)


So how will MS fix this? Drop the price, make the DRM features on/off, improve performance?

Include a towel, and a manual with Don't Panic written on the cover? :biggrin:

Scotty Bones
October 7th, 2007, 04:19 AM
Microsoft announced sales of 60 million copies of Vista

http://www.vnunet.com/itweek/news/2195175/microsoft-ships-million-vista

Ok, first, MS does not sell copies of their OS, they sell license agreements. That shiny little disk of yours, isn't yours, it's the property of MS.
Next, those 60 million licenses were sold to OEM's and retail stores not users.

What would really be interesting to see, would be the number of licenses that have been sold back to MS by new PC buyers.

Currently I'm seeking an AAS in support and networking at my local college and am being forced to sit through a boring class called "Operating Systems". They might as well call it what it really is "Vista", and it doesn't get much further than basic use of the OS.

But instructor made an interesting comment. "A lot of people like Vista but techs hate it." Now stop and think about that for a minute.
I use to work for Sony TS and I remember all the pre-rollout Vista training we did. I can't remember a single tech jumping up and down screeming "Yippie, I get to support Vista", as a matter of fact it was just the opposite reaction as a few of us had already gotten some exposure to the new OS through RC1 and 2. Lets just say it wasn't a pretty scene on the floor once that rollout date hit, (and i'm glad I left shortly there after because everyone would just escalate to t2 and dump them off on me. What a nightmare - thats my rant). I know its not just Sony either, when I talk to others that have had to contact help support for one reason or another, as soon as they tell the tech they are running Vista, the first words out of there mouth is, "Oh geeze".

So, who are these people who like Vista then. Well, I asked around the class and i've now figured that one out to. We (techs) refer to these people as "Magic Box Users". All they know is that there computer does really neat stuff when they click on things. In every case it seems that these people have been taken in by Aero, and thats usually the only explanation they can give. Not really caring to know what is really going on in the background of their PC's. There are always going to be these kind of people around and these are the poor soles that are going to be forever lost in the dark void of MS. Unfortunately this seems to make up the majority of computer users in the world today.

Now we also have a lot of non-techie yet still somewhat knowledgeable users out there. For the most part these people are disappointed in the new OS and have either gone back to XP, switched OS's all together or just accepted this monstrosity being crammed down their thought for the time being.

So, is MS really a looser here, only time can tell. IMHO though, MS seems to be losing more and more of the Advanced to mid-level users. And depending on how much influence tech dept's have with their companies and the situations they find themselves in while facing upgrade possibilities, they may begin to witness losses there as well. As for the Magic box users, they belong to MS as long as they really have no choice than to have windows when they buy their new PC's and/or no one to educate them other wise.

Scotty Bones
October 7th, 2007, 04:47 AM
That's not really true. Companies use Windows because MS Office is still superior to Open Office. All of their documents are in MS format, which OO can't read with 100% reliability. There is also a ton of commercial applications and proprietary software that is Windows only.

Not True. Most companies use the office products on a more basic level. Never using any of very fancy functions that can cause some of the minor incompatibility issues.

While working for Sony TS I noticed that only the supervisors (all 6 or 7 of them in my dept.) had MS office 2003 installed on their systems, while all the employees (250 to 300 of us) had open office installed on our systems.

Its all a matter of money. It would be to expensive to have MS Office on all those PC's. This is also why the do not upgrade to 2007. With '07, MS have moved away from open-source standard formats to there own proprietary X format in an attempt to stop this type of setup. This type of childishness is what is getting MS in trouble with their corporate base.

Babbage
October 20th, 2007, 12:13 AM
I've only used Vista recently I can't get over how awkward it is to use. They've made the interface more jazzy and attractive, but also far less easy to use. XP is cleaner, simpler and less cluttered. Step backwards in my opinion, and that's not even including the beefed up DRM lurking inside. :(

mivo
October 20th, 2007, 12:21 PM
With '07, MS have moved away from open-source standard formats to there own proprietary X format in an attempt to stop this type of setup. This type of childishness is what is getting MS in trouble with their corporate base.

The sad thing is that I am not sure if that strategy is not going to pay off. I believe Microsoft is more concerned with establishing a de facto standard (their own), rather than forcing companies to upgrade to the '07 versions of their office applications, and thus tying users more strongly to the Windows OS.

I think the first step towards leaving the OS is often the use of open source alternatives. I had used mostly open source applications in Windows before I decided to migrate to Linux. I also had slowly switched to open formats (or at least supported formats) so that actually ditching Windows had only been a rather trivial affair: none of my data was affected by it. I would, however, not have switched the OS if I could not have easily kept fifteen or more years of data.

Games are what many people cause to stick with Windows. But sales and revenue of PC games have been decreasing over the past few years (shifted to consoles), and MS is probably seeing this writing on the wall as well. If enough people (especially corporate users) use Microsoft's closed formats, it will be made harder for others to migrate to Linux again. I think what MS is doing is, from their perspective, perfectly logical and, in a sad way, a clever move. If I was them, I would make it very painless and inexpensive for everyone to upgrade to the '07 versions (not immediately, but after a while when the easily update willing have shelled out money ;)).

jr.gotti
October 20th, 2007, 03:35 PM
open office MAY be "just about the same quality" for a home user, but not for business. one day you'll see what i mean.

there are plenty of windows forums too, just not official. you can find help when you need it.

Long live Microsoft Excel! ... and I'm serious.

lancest
October 20th, 2007, 08:33 PM
Look around the internet there is plenty of real testimony that OO applications are good enough for most/all needs. I have found that to be especially true with OO Calc. Excel is certainly a feature rich program but as usual there is the argument that we can't do without it in business. That is baloney. I can also do without receiving hidden viruses from MS office users (But since I flushed Windows down no worries).

osxcapades
October 20th, 2007, 09:33 PM
No, Microsoft is not losing. This is really a nonquestion and doesn't deserve to even be discussed.

American_Outcast
October 20th, 2007, 09:51 PM
No, Microsoft is not losing. This is really a nonquestion and doesn't deserve to even be discussed.

All endings start with a beginning. Microsoft will loose in the long run. But for now, no they are not.

I, like many others, will not buy hardware if it doesn't run good with Linux or Ubuntu in particular. I need to buy a new computer soon and I am more then likely going to get one through Dell. I am not happy at all with my choices but the Ubuntu computers Dell offers are not bad if you play around with the hardware before you buy one.

In the past I use to buy a computer with Windows pre-installed, etc. Mainly so I could take it off, Install Linux (freely downloaded from the internet,) and have Windows on a partition so I could run games and help others I know work through Windows problems. But almost all the people I know who have Windows are using XP and don't want to touch Vista. Those who have tried Vista, many have downgraded back to XP.

More importantly I want to support Dell and its efforts in offering Ubuntu. It comes with support but I don't need it, I have this forum here to come to.

So if the hardware doesn't work with Linux I won't buy it. I don't even buy programs or Games anymore unless they work with Linux. But I will buy programs, hardware, etc if I need or even want it as long as I can use it with Ubuntu. I love free, but I am also willing to pay for quality, as long as it is not a rip off.

My argument isn't really wanting MS to fall. I just want to see them loose more ground with their OS. But in reality they have some other things they can use to make money. Xbox, software, etc.

And many non-geeks and/or non-Linux users are starting to feel this way. Microsoft is all about profit at any cost and in the US more and more people are getting tired of corporations squeezing the money from us for not so good products or services.

Ubuntu is on to something. Automatix is on to something. Dell is on to something. Lets see if at least one, if not all three, do this right and keep their momentum.

I still think Automatix should focus mostly on commercial software and demo's of commercial software and games while Ubuntu stay's mostly with OSS while Dell needs to offer a better selection, more of a variety, of hardware and computers and advertise to people that there is another option to MS.

Frak
October 20th, 2007, 10:29 PM
No, Microsoft is not losing. This is really a nonquestion and doesn't deserve to even be discussed.
You won't share an open opinion with your thoughts and experiences of different aspects of using GNU/Linux and Windows without pointing out the pros and cons of each?

Wow, your awfully closed about it.

sstusick
October 20th, 2007, 10:35 PM
Sounds like a Windows fanboy to me.

popch
October 20th, 2007, 10:42 PM
You won't share an open opinion with your thoughts and experiences of different aspects of using GNU/Linux and Windows without pointing out the pros and cons of each?

Wow, your awfully closed about it.

What use pointing pros and cons of each when one of 'each' has rather more than 80% of market coverage. The OP poses the question if 'Microsoft finally losing'. I do not call it 'losing' if market shares do not markedly decline.

Frak
October 20th, 2007, 10:44 PM
What use pointing pros and cons of each when one of 'each' has rather more than 80% of market coverage. The OP poses the question if 'Microsoft finally losing'. I do not call it 'losing' if market shares do not markedly decline.
Yeah, but Constructive Criticism helps :D

osxcapades
October 20th, 2007, 10:51 PM
You won't share an open opinion with your thoughts and experiences of different aspects of using GNU/Linux and Windows without pointing out the pros and cons of each?

This topic isn't about the advantages or disadvantages of Linux and Windows. It is about whether "Microsoft is losing", as the title states.

Edit: Goodness. You people are too fast for me.

sstusick
October 20th, 2007, 10:57 PM
Someone really should rename the title of this thread. "Is Microsoft finally losing?" would sound a whole lot better.

popch
October 20th, 2007, 10:59 PM
Yeah, but Constructive Criticism helps :D

It does help our morale. But then, what's that worth to anyone else?

Frak
October 20th, 2007, 11:13 PM
It does help our morale. But then, what's that worth to anyone else?
Wait, wait, wait.... nope, stumped :lolflag:

mivo
October 20th, 2007, 11:20 PM
The OP poses the question if 'Microsoft finally losing'. I do not call it 'losing' if market shares do not markedly decline.

How do we really know what the market share is, though?

I bought/built three computers in the past five years, and of those two came with Windows (the last one is custom-built from scratch, so no OS). I also got an additional XP and Office license from Microsoft (was job-related at the time). I'm pretty sure that I contribute to the Windows market share, even though I am not using Windows at all (not even dual-boot). I never bought Ubuntu, but it runs on two boxes (one Xubuntu, one Ubuntu) and the new box will run Ubuntu as well. So, do these contribute to the Linux market share?

User agent traces when I visit web pages? Besides my IP changing at least every 24 hours, my Firefox running on Linux identifies itself as IE 7.0 running on Vista at times just so that these sites actually work. Needless to say, I have not purchased Vista nor do I use it, but someone or something probably assumes I do just because my browser sometimes "fakes it".

Don't get me wrong, I don't doubt that Windows has an overwhelming market share, but I question the numbers that we are frequently presented. It is much easier to estimate the number of Windows users than of Linux users (especially desktop users).

American_Outcast
October 20th, 2007, 11:26 PM
How do we really know what the market share is, though?

I bought/built three computers in the past five years, and of those two came with Windows (the last one is custom-built from scratch, so no OS). I also got an additional XP and Office license from Microsoft (was job-related at the time). I'm pretty sure that I contribute to the Windows market share, even though I am not using Windows at all (not even dual-boot). I never bought Ubuntu, but it runs on two boxes (one Xubuntu, one Ubuntu) and the new box will run Ubuntu as well. So, do these contribute to the Linux market share?

User agent traces when I visit web pages? Besides my IP changing at least every 24 hours, my Firefox running on Linux identifies itself as IE 7.0 running on Vista at times just so that these sites actually work. Needless to say, I have not purchased Vista nor do I use it, but someone or something probably assumes I do just because my browser sometimes "fakes it".

Don't get me wrong, I don't doubt that Windows has an overwhelming market share, but I question the numbers that we are frequently presented. It is much easier to estimate the number of Windows users than of Linux users (especially desktop users).

Some very good points.

happysmileman
October 21st, 2007, 06:45 PM
No-one on these forums could answer whether or not Linux is ready, the people who need to be asked are people who have never use either Linux or Microsoft before.

For example, if you want to log out on Windows, you click Start -> Shutdown and then there's a log off option
In Ubuntu you click the power off button and there's that option as well.
Neither of them make any sence to someone who doesn't already know them, but the first makes sence to a Windows user and the second makes sence to a Linux user.

What we need to do is get people who have never used computers before (like children or people in developing countries), give them a set up Windows PC and a set up Linux PC and see which one they can figure out quickest.

As for setting up, I'm almost certain that Ubuntu and most distros would win, and it's easier to check since most people have never set up an OS before, just give them a Windows CD and a Linux one and see which one they find easiest.
No point at all arguing amongst ourselves, except passing my time :P

Ub1476
October 21st, 2007, 07:03 PM
2007 (http://www.google.com/trends?q=windows+vista%2C+ubuntu)

October month (http://www.google.com/trends?q=windows+vista%2C+ubuntu&ctab=0&geo=all&date=2007-10&sort=0)

Frak
October 22nd, 2007, 02:34 AM
2007 (http://www.google.com/trends?q=windows+vista%2C+ubuntu)

October month (http://www.google.com/trends?q=windows+vista%2C+ubuntu&ctab=0&geo=all&date=2007-10&sort=0)
2007 (http://www.google.com/trends?q=vista%2C+ubuntu&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all&sort=0)

October month (http://www.google.com/trends?q=vista%2C+ubuntu&ctab=0&geo=all&date=2007-10&sort=0)

Addressing that most people call Windows Vista just plain Vista.

lancest
October 22nd, 2007, 04:20 AM
MS is surely not losing money! But IMHO they really aren't truly innovating in the OS department either (for our freedoms too). MS looks fat, and complacent to me! Ubuntu is the opposite- lean, mean, hungry & ready for stardom. Who cares about sales units!

RedPandaFox
October 22nd, 2007, 04:42 AM
What we need to do is get people who have never used computers before (like children or people in developing countries), give them a set up Windows PC and a set up Linux PC and see which one they can figure out quickest.

For years I struggled with Windows and Apple and never realy learned that much from them but recently after my windows crashed for the 1000th time in a month, I hit the PC, the CD drive opend and I noticed a PC user mag CD sitting on the table, I put it in, and it ran live to PCLinuxOS, Now im not saying in a child in a developing country, but from about 10 or more years of personal experence using Windows and Macs, I loaded my new OS, and within a month, I learned so much more, I find Lunux so easy to use, something I never found on Microsoft.
I believe that Linux is steadaly gaining on Microsoft and will soon gain enough ground to be internatinaly recognized as a leading source of software. Although I believe they are "gaining" on MS, I dont believe that MS is loosing at anything. If many people will think back to XP being put out, how many people thought it was to hard to navigate and would never be a good OS? I dare say many of the people who thought that then think the same of Vista now.
Even if MS does loose some of its former glory from being the Main OS people used, It will still always have its gaming power, in PC's or Xbox, And noone can shorely predict the future, and all we can do is speculate.... or kill Bill Gates and speed up the process? :)

sstusick
October 22nd, 2007, 07:44 AM
Killing Bill Gates won't change anything... except for the worst.

Nunu
October 22nd, 2007, 08:53 AM
My humble opinion which will probably be shot down in the next few minutes by some other Microsoft Fan boy that probably doesn't even use a legitimate MS license or a OEM copy that he scaled out of his companies Tech net folder *Breath* is. that Vista that is on the shelf is a massive RC3 that users had to pay for to test. I have never seen such a flaky, poorly designed and incompatible os in my life. even ubuntu 6.04 supports more of my hardware and more reliably then vista, and it's not because i use old kit either. Its funny how XP sales have gone up since the release of vista. My humble opinion yadi yadi yak yak *Breath* is, that MS is starting to feel the pressure now that more people are switching over to Linux and mac for there OS needs. And they are now trying to make there os's look pretty to sell them instead of devoloping better stable software. so yes i do think that microsoft is not going down yet, but if they carry on with what they are doing they will soon find them selfs on a steep slope facing down. They are in the process to patent mind reading technology so that they can read your mind and tell you what specials are available on the internet to buy. That to me is a massive invasion of privacy.

Let the bludgeoning begin

popch
October 22nd, 2007, 09:06 AM
Let the bludgeoning begin

no.

Nunu
October 22nd, 2007, 11:09 AM
pity i was quite looking forward to another OS wars. Some guys get really touchy if you start getting against Microsoft. It's not that i wish Microsoft to go bank. i just wish Microsoft would stop with there stupid world dominance plans and idiotic licensing scams. If they spent half the time working on there operating systems that they do on finding new ways to screw the consumer they would actually be able to develop a brilliant OS.

popch
October 22nd, 2007, 12:46 PM
they would actually be able to develop a brilliant OS.

perhaps.

Frak
October 22nd, 2007, 10:58 PM
pity i was quite looking forward to another OS wars. Some guys get really touchy if you start getting against Microsoft. It's not that i wish Microsoft to go bank. i just wish Microsoft would stop with there stupid world dominance plans and idiotic licensing scams. If they spent half the time working on there operating systems that they do on finding new ways to screw the consumer they would actually be able to develop a brilliant OS.
1. Your with Linux users, I doubt a Windows fanboy would get very far.

2. Apple has done this and created Mac OS X, poor hardware (IMHO), but OS X has to be what everyone looks up to as a lightweight OS that supports just about everything.
They are also sketchy, but OS X is a work of art.