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View Full Version : Ubuntu Disappoints, Breaks Promises With Rapid Growth



newbie2
September 27th, 2007, 05:53 AM
http://lxer.com/module/newswire/view/93270/index.html
http://lxer.com/module/forums/t/26105/
:rolleyes:

Dimitriid
September 27th, 2007, 06:53 AM
melodramatic but he has a point: its ridiculous that upgrading breaks networking so easily

kripkenstein
September 27th, 2007, 11:26 AM
Perhaps the distinction between regular releases and LTS releases could be made clearer. Especially how stable the regular releases are supposed to be - for example, the bash/dash issue showed that Ubuntu is willing to have a lot of breakage in 'stable' regular releases, more than would be acceptable in other distros I believe.

nonewmsgs
September 27th, 2007, 11:58 AM
so some new brand new features may have a bug? cry me a river. this is based on debian unstable and meant to be more cutting edge. isn't that the point? i would rather have the features in the relese and fix it as the bugs are found. if it were found a vista feature has a minor bug, it wouldn't even make news. i'm not saying we shouldn't hold ourselves to a higher standard, but the migration assistant shouldn't be enough for an entire article.

n3tfury
September 27th, 2007, 12:16 PM
but the migration assistant shouldn't be enough for an entire article.

you obviously didn't read the whole article.

kleeman
September 27th, 2007, 12:55 PM
This is an old beef of mine. Ubuntu Quality control needs some proper attention. There has been a lot of talk in this area but little real action. It seems to me that there needs to be an organized effort to test releases on as wide a set of hardware as possible and that breakages need to be taken more seriously by developers. I have had two serious bugs in Launchpad for several months both of which have been reported by many other users. Still no fixes for gutsy.

It is one thing to release shiny new stuff (compiz etc) but if the basic user experience is sometimes negative because of usability problems then all that good work on publicity is destroyed.

n3tfury
September 27th, 2007, 02:16 PM
i still believe the biggest gripe among new users and um, probably old users too, is the lack of wireless simplicity. not saying it's super simple in windows, but it certainly is easier. aLOT of people are going wifi these days.

Johnsie
September 27th, 2007, 02:24 PM
Judging by the titles of other reports on that site I would say that user/site complains about alot of Linux related stuff and is anti-everything. It's also full of ads.

The great thing about Ubuntu is that you can easily choose which network manager you want to use. Most operating systems dont even let you change your network manager.

Ubuntu is updated regularly, that's true and I'm glad because I would hate to see progression from stopping. Sure there will always be new things added that dont work properly, but there's clear guidance on the Ubuntu site which version of Ubuntu are long term releases that will be supported ofver a long period of time. Short term releases are about finding and using new technologies. Then the good things can be finalised and stablised for the LTS. If you're looking for stability use Dapper LTS, not an STS version of Ubuntu like Edgy or Fiesty, and certainly not a development version like Gutsy. I think the Ubuntu website is quite clear about that.

Seisen
September 27th, 2007, 02:26 PM
Wifi has come a long way since Ubuntu first came out, more cards are being supported and getting them to work is becoming a lot easier.

Warren Watts
September 27th, 2007, 02:43 PM
i still believe the biggest gripe among new users and um, probably old users too, is the lack of wireless simplicity. not saying it's super simple in windows, but it certainly is easier. a LOT of people are going wifi these days

I work as a telephone tech support agent for a major broadband DSL provider, and I would estimate that at least 30-40% of my calls involve assistance with configuring wireless connections. EVERYONE is going wireless.

Windows does make wireless configuration fairly simple and people still struggle with it. Admittedly, about half of the the people that call me for wireless support could have done it on their own had they bothered to READ anything, but the other half are genuinely technology ignorant and are calling because they don't know the first thing about it. Windows makes it pretty simple for even the most tech-challenged person to get connected wirelessly.

Ubuntu wireless support needs a lot of improvement in comparison. Not necessarily on the software front, but on the device recognition and driver support front. If I had to assist a tech-challenged Ubuntu user on the phone with configuration of a wireless device that didn't work out of the box, I'm almost positive it would take hours to get it working, if I was able to do it over the phone at all.

So yes, I agree. The folks at Canonical need to focus a lot of energy on improving wireless support.

*steps down from soapbox*

Seisen
September 27th, 2007, 02:46 PM
The problem with some of the people is the fact they are used to Windows and how you just point and click to install programs. Same thing with wireless it usually works right off the bat or you might have to install a driver from a cd.

Johnsie
September 27th, 2007, 02:57 PM
I've always prefered Ubuntu's support of wireless cards. When I plgu my Belkin USB adapter I have to find a CD and install a windows driver but Ubuntu detects and loads the driver out of the box. The Network Manager GUI is pretty staright forward and easy to use.

I guess different people have different tastes though.

Anthem
September 27th, 2007, 04:33 PM
So yes, I agree. The folks at Canonical need to focus a lot of energy on improving wireless support.
The improvements will all come at the kernel level, not the GUI. For supported chipsets, wireless works pretty much perfectly.

I've got a Centrino laptop, and Linux had wireless working before I completed my first boot.

Warren Watts
September 27th, 2007, 04:59 PM
The improvements will all come at the kernel level, not the GUI. For supported chipsets, wireless works pretty much perfectly.

I've got a Centrino laptop, and Linux had wireless working before I completed my first boot.

That's fine and dandy for you; it worked "out-of-the-box", just like its supposed to. Ideally, it should work that way for everyone. It doesn't.

I just clicked the "New Posts" link and counted the number of threads related to wireless issues. 10 of the 250 were wireless issue related, and the span of the 250 threads was only one hour from the newest to the oldest. To me, that translates to a lot of folks having difficulty resolving their wireless issues.

Mr. Picklesworth
September 27th, 2007, 05:08 PM
He is right, though. NetworkManager is currently flawed. It is not using the infrastructure that exists, but rather tries to rearrange it by itself.

After such a valiant effort to unnecessarily repeat the work gone into the wireless infrastructure that already exists, it would have to be a great program, right?
However, it also is an insufficient wireless configuration tool, as it does not offer any customization for the user except for the encryption key and the ssid. What about static IPs? What about DNS? Sure, I can use the manual configuration, but that means it is no longer a roaming connection, which defeats the purpose of NetworkManager.

It has improved lately, as it now lets me add a new network by ssid, and it definitely does have the nicest interface of the lot, but it is still is far from perfect.

vexorian
September 27th, 2007, 06:01 PM
I see a clear tendency to FUD ubuntu out, probably a coincidence that we are seeing Novell unleashing the claws lately (http://www.pcworld.idg.com.au/index.php/id;63055845) with their direct attacks on other distros and the PLOS guys spamming everywhere.

I guess I would care if I actually had a wireless, but I don't so ubuntu is fine for me, a soup opera made out of a single part of the whole OS doesn't affect me, sorry.


Edit: 16 bugs in the migration tool project! I am shocked and appalled.. .

xat_
September 27th, 2007, 06:37 PM
I see a clear tendency to FUD ubuntu out, probably a coincidence that we are seeing Novell unleashing the claws lately (http://www.pcworld.idg.com.au/index.php/id;63055845) with their direct attacks on other distros and the PLOS guys spamming everywhere.

I guess I would care if I actually had a wireless, but I don't so ubuntu is fine for me, a soup opera made out of a single part of the whole OS doesn't affect me, sorry.


Edit: 16 bugs in the migration tool project! I am shocked and appalled.. .

Ouch. Imagine what would happen if the developers had that kind of mentality. The wireless user base is undeniably present, so for that aspect of the OS to not do as well as expected is, to me, a BadThing that probably should have more attention.

I don't have wireless either, but how can I vouch for my OS if wireless setup doesn't fall under the JustWorks concept that Ubuntu so puts forth?

"It works for me! Not my concern if it doesn't for you!" won't fly.

Henry Rayker
September 27th, 2007, 06:41 PM
I have stopped using Ubuntu. The latest I've used was Feisty (for all of an hour or so) but I used Dapper and Edgy through their entire release cycles and used Breezy for most of its cycle as well.

Does Ubuntu's wireless support suck? Yes. Especially considering the fact that, back in the Breezy days, everyone said, "We're working on wireless. We're working on wireless support. etc. etc. etc." NetworkManager works for some cards but not others (3 of 4 that I tried failed to work with NetworkManager), which is frustrating, but understandable, to some degree...however...

Is this a "Linux problem"? No. Fedora and Gentoo both have NetworkManager working with 3 of the 4 (but to be fair, I didn't try with the fourth). This issue is with the package as installed by Ubuntu, not with the package as written. Maybe this won't hold true for 100% of all of the cards out there, but it was true in every case I tried it with.

My biggest gripe with Ubuntu is the shift from being a sort of beginners haven to being a bleeding edge distro that attempts to cater to newer users...Honestly, all of the talk about supporting laptops better and supporting wireless better went in the crapper when people started saying, "ZOMG!!! Beryl/compiz/whatever shud B installd bai d3f4u17!!!" (To be fair, it all went in the crapper when people started to listen to these people...)

Honestly, how hard is it for the liveCD to detect that I am using a widescreen monitor on my laptop and 1024x768 is NOT a valid screen resolution? Gentoo, Fedora, FoX, and every other relatively small distro I've tried have all gotten it right...

mridkash
September 27th, 2007, 06:44 PM
Wireless didn't work for me in Windows actually.
When I started windows in college library (with wifi on) it said nothing about the wireless signal. I dbl clicked on status bar icon and it popped up a search window which listed the college wifi. Clicked on it and it said 'connected'.
But still no internet!
opened network connections>properties>tcp/ip something>then put in the ip admin gave me.
Still no internet!
Gave up and started ubuntu.

As soon it started, a popup msg came telling a wireless is connected. Clicked on that and config window opens. selected the connection put static ip and done!
Internet worked!

FuturePilot
September 27th, 2007, 06:47 PM
I think the problem is that too much stuff is being added without enough testing. 6 months is not enough time for the amount of new stuff that is being added to a new release. It should be at least 9 months, if not a yearly release cycle. That's the explanation I see for all the bugs, in which I'd have to agree there are a bit too many.

23meg
September 27th, 2007, 06:54 PM
Will new upstream software stop coming in those extra three months? New hardware? New user demands? No. Thus, lengthening the release cycle does not automatically make you able to fix more things, as long as the workforce remains equal, and you don't want to fall behind the times.

http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=1803358&postcount=50

FuturePilot
September 27th, 2007, 07:01 PM
You have a good point, but why does it seem that distros that release less often than Ubuntu are more stable? Is it just me imagining things?:confused:

Lord Illidan
September 27th, 2007, 07:04 PM
Honestly, how hard is it for the liveCD to detect that I am using a widescreen monitor on my laptop and 1024x768 is NOT a valid screen resolution? Gentoo, Fedora, FoX, and every other relatively small distro I've tried have all gotten it right...

It did this right with gutsy. I'm also on a widescreen laptop, and I suffered Feisty installation at a v. poor resolution.

However, I too say that priorities should be set on improving wireless and suspend/hibernate etc rather than luxuries like Compiz/Beryl.

asmoore82
September 27th, 2007, 07:13 PM
FUD Alert!! FUD Alert!!

another FUD-tastic offerring from one Mr. Matt Hartley: http://osweekly.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2644&Itemid=0



Anyone who upgrades their existing installation of Ubuntu is a fool
for doing so without a clean install. Working with a clean install of a
new version of any given distro will always yield safer results than
attempting an upgrade on top of an existing installation.
[emphasis added]

Mr. Matt Hartley is shocked by all the things he "must" do to get Ubuntu
working out-of-the-box. Unfortunately, he hasn't taken the time to
understand the huge difference between simply "working" and "highly
customized to his liking including Automatix2 and all its flaws."

We are so sorry that Ubuntu is good enough for the personal system
of Michael Dell but not up to par according to Mr. Matt Hartley.

sheesh, ignore him and move on.

real proof: http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=3386265&postcount=9
Who is a "fool" for what now, Mr. Matty?

Automatix is garbage: http://mjg59.livejournal.com/77440.html

FUD Alert!! FUD Alert!!

23meg
September 27th, 2007, 07:13 PM
You have a good point, but why does it seem that distros that release less often than Ubuntu are more stable? Is it just me imagining things?:confused:

It's not a must to remain cutting edge, but Ubuntu does have that goal. Maybe those distros don't, or maybe they trade it off to some extent for some extra stability. Or maybe they have a greater workforce.

It's all a matter of compromises. You can't make everyone 100% happy all the time. You can't both be cutting edge and very very stable and free of bugs, regardless of the length of your release cycle.

Artificial Intelligence
September 27th, 2007, 07:16 PM
You have a good point, but why does it seem that distros that release less often than Ubuntu are more stable? Is it just me imagining things?:confused:

I've seen distros with longer release cycles that was no-way near what you'll call stable.

FuturePilot
September 27th, 2007, 07:18 PM
It's not a must to remain cutting edge, but Ubuntu does have that goal. Maybe those distros don't, or maybe they trade it off to some extent for some extra stability. Or maybe they have a greater workforce.

It's all a matter of compromises. You can't make everyone 100% happy all the time. You can't both be cutting edge and very very stable and free of bugs, regardless of the length of your release cycle.

Sounds fair enough. Thanks for explaining.;)

Warren Watts
September 27th, 2007, 07:26 PM
So what I glean from what has been said so far in this thread is basically this:

Ubuntu's developers need to concentrate less on the "gee whiz" applications, and concentrate on fixing some of the basic issues that users are having now with things like:

* wireless networking
* sound issues
* video issues (specifically default resolutions)
* better laptop functionality (sleep/suspend/restore/etc..)

Anyone have any other basic functionality related issues that should be added to the list?

Dimitriid
September 27th, 2007, 08:16 PM
Id be nice to have this features but I wonder, is supporting compiz-fusion out of the box really that time consuming? Compiz is already preinstalled on Feisty. Restricted Driver utility also. They are not developing Compiz-Fusion, they are not developing video drivers. They give ( and can continue to do so in the future ) plenty of warning about the nature of this apps.

How much development time takes to just modify the default session to check for hardware and activate this two features? XGL? Fine a tad more work but might not even be necessary with upcoming ATI Drivers ( in which case at Release date, ATI wont be "detected" as good for compiz fusion, when the update for the driver is in the repos, its now "detected" and auto starts on the next session ).

Now going into the Linux Kernell to improve wireless support or completely change network manager for other network manager ( or ironing out the issues ) that would be time consuming. Yet maybe a couple days worth of work for a single designer can go a huuuuge way to win over crowds with a default 3d effects.

Bannor
September 27th, 2007, 08:17 PM
kind of off the subject but will my computer automatically update to 07/10 ubuntu?

Dimitriid
September 27th, 2007, 08:19 PM
kind of off the subject but will my computer automatically update to 07/10 ubuntu?

You'd have to do apt-get distro upgrade or something like that, then ti upgrades like a normal patch ( only much bigger )

Id back up grup, xorg, remove restricted drivers and back up ~/ just in case however.

John.Michael.Kane
September 27th, 2007, 08:29 PM
kind of off the subject but will my computer automatically update to 07/10 ubuntu?

No it wont. To upgrade you will have to run.


gksudo "update-manager -c"

aysiu
September 27th, 2007, 08:55 PM
So what I glean from what has been said so far in this thread is basically this:

Ubuntu's developers need to concentrate less on the "gee whiz" applications, and concentrate on fixing some of the basic issues that users are having now with things like:

* wireless networking
* sound issues
* video issues (specifically default resolutions)
* better laptop functionality (sleep/suspend/restore/etc..)

Anyone have any other basic functionality related issues that should be added to the list? Actually, since Ubuntu releases twice a year, I'd love to see something like this:

The April release focuses on polishing basic functionality (hardware recognition, outstanding bugs)
The October release focuses on "gee whiz" applications, better artwork, and more graphical frontends for tasks

nonewmsgs
September 27th, 2007, 10:41 PM
Actually, since Ubuntu releases twice a year, I'd love to see something like this:

The April release focuses on polishing basic functionality (hardware recognition, outstanding bugs)
The October release focuses on "gee whiz" applications, better artwork, and more graphical frontends for tasks

aysiu - always the voice of reason.

toupeiro
September 27th, 2007, 11:05 PM
I've heard a lot of different people complain about the wireless -- to be honest I've only ever experienced one wireless NIC I had problems with whatsoever, and it was a USB based external Linksys Wifi nic. I've thrown ubuntu on several different models of some of the biggest laptop manufacturers out there (to date: Toshiba, Lenovo, HP, Acer and a Gateway). I've never had an issue with wireless.

Sound, on the other hand, I've always believed needs to be addressed on linux distro's across the board. I don't completely fault any single distribution for lack of functionality, as I know full well that its the hardware manufacturers that are skimping on their hardware these days and letting software do most of their processing. I think Linux distributors/developers needs to come to terms with this though, as sad as it is, and build up the middleware support for modern day "lite" soundcards. I think its ridiculous that I have to take a Sound Blaster Audigy card out of a machine and put in a GEN 2 AWE32 or GEN 1 AWE64 to get true multi-channel signal processing, but I think its bad as well that this is not news anymore, and developers for linux have not made middleware focus for soundcards a priority; in hopes hardware manufacturers will see the error of their ways. Microsoft has given them an outlet, for over a decade, of a cheaper way to manufacture and develop their products, while continuing to charge the same if not more for the equipment, while simultaneously locking them into windows only development. If manufacturers have to return to more sophisticated hardware, the costs will go up even more, for what is considered basic functionality today, which is a benefit and a black eye. It sucks, but it is what it is, unfortunately.

(By middleware, I am talking about the windows proprietary DirectSound(DirectX) and SoftProcessing that comes bundled with most soundcards today. No, your "drivers" are NOT really 100+ megabytes)

and while very low on the totem pole in comparison to other things, webcam support also needs to be developed quite a bit more.