Let's talk about Windows Vista (NO BATTLING OR MS FLAMING)

[oddabe19]

Ok, so I was looking through a few screenshots of Vista http://www.winsupersite.com/showcase/winvista_beta1_gallery_08.asp

anyone else thinks this looks suprisingly a little bit like GDM?

My question is...
Since it seems like Microsoft is all out of ideas, and they seem to be taking ideas from other sources, is this a threat? Do you think it is?

Personally, I'm scared. I'm afraid that Microsoft will take all these ideas and patent them (since open-source doesn't use patents... for the most part), preventing us from using these features that we have grown to love over the years.

What do you think?

Please no Linux r0x0rs or Mico$oft sUx! or any other flaming, I'm just curious as to what you all think.

[somuchfortheafter]

well if ms did us some of our software in their product by law they are forced to release it as open source as the gpl states. however i doubt they would so someone would discover it and then major courtroom coverage would occur and ms would look bad again in the eyes of the public. personally im grateful they are writing vista as it will yet again raise the bar for the linux community to create an even more attractive and functional user interface, plus with all of the drm bs some people will be turning to linux and when they do we will be here for them... or playing on a mac.

[poofyhairguy]

Vista will be better and prettier at first because of the driver support. But some day...it will be like XP is now...

[miscz]

Ok, so I was looking through a few screenshots of Vista http://www.winsupersite.com/showcase/winvista_beta1_gallery_08.asp

anyone else thinks this looks suprisingly a little bit like GDM?
It looks a lot like WinXP logon manager with different theme. Dude, what's with this "MS stole gcalctool, look at the calc.exe!"? Some things look like they do because it's most simple and efficient design. There's not much to innovate here.

[KLineD]

In my opinion, Windows Vista will represent just good things for the Linux community. First the hardware, I don't know the system requirements but for many users now running XP (at least here in Mexico) Vista would represent a neccesary hardware upgrade, some will upgrade hardware, some will run Vista anyway and hopefully some will turn to Linux.

Second, the DRM as said by somuchfortheafter. Personally I'll never run Windows again in my personal computer and maybe a lot of users will start looking for alternatives when DRM begin to bug their life.

Aside from that, I don't see major features from Windows Vista. I was excited about WinFS back then but that was it. In the GUI part, well I dislike it. Maybe it's the color scheme shown in the screenshots but I choose my Gnome desktop anytime.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see. I really hope it comes as something better than XP with real security enhacements and maybe a decent user experience.

[poofyhairguy]

I will say this:

Unless Vista finds some way to force all of those old Window's apps to run without administrator privledges....Vista will suck. I know they are working on macking future apps be better about that, but unless magically my mom's old Quickbooks doesn't need administrator power to RUN, then the biggest problem in Windowsland still exists.

Spyware will still come.

[KLineD]

I will say this:

Unless Vista finds some way to force all of those old Window's apps to run without administrator privledges....Vista will suck. I know they are working on macking future apps be better about that, but unless magically my mom's old Quickbooks doesn't need administrator power to RUN, then the biggest problem in Windowsland still exists.

Spyware will still come.

Maybe Microsoft should have made the decisition of breaking app compatability long ago and implement such thing. It's nearly impossible now I can imagine.

[KiwiNZ]

This is my opinion of Vista from what I have seen .

It speaks mountains that an OS that has been in the making for 5 years turns out to be a point release.

It would seem that more has been taken out than has been added. Microsoft are giving birth to a big disappointment. I wonder if people will part with their money in the same numbers that parted it for XP .

To me Vista provides Linux with many opportunities are hope the Distros rise to the occasion and make some real advances in the next 18 months.

[poofyhairguy]

Maybe Microsoft should have made the decisition of breaking app compatability long ago and implement such thing. It's nearly impossible now I can imagine.

Then it will be impossible for Vista to be my desktop OS.

At some point, backwards compatibility is a bad thing, and will destroy the Windows empire.

[bored2k]

I wish everyone that will use the OS the best. I hope it's good. I hope it teaches the user while being easy to use. I also world peace and azureus to use C++.

[KLineD]

while I agree with most of bored2k wishes, I can't agree with azureus using C++, I happen to like Java (since programming with it is part of what I do for a living).

Anyway, if what poofyhairguy said is true lets just hope they continue with their backwards compatibility for a long time. :wink:

[panickedthumb]

I edited the title of the thread to read "MS flaming" and not "M$ flaming." I think calling MS "M$" is a flame in and of itself.

Other than that. I'm not really impressed with the screenshots and features, except for the fact that everyone isn't root anymore.

[FLeiXiuS]

I edited the title of the thread to read "MS flaming" and not "M$ flaming." I think calling MS "M$" is a flame in and of itself.

Other than that. I'm not really impressed with the screenshots and features, except for the fact that everyone isn't root anymore.

Yeah that blows, I always loved how Windows shared the entire C drive.

(//host/$c ;-))

[WildTangent]

as much as i like linux, im still much more comfortable with windows, so ill most likely be using it, wether it turns out as a failure, or a true revolution. from what ive read so far, they are making some innovations. i definately like the new GUI system. as for the actual themes, im not sure. ive always had a soft spot for dark themes, so the beta 1 theme looks pretty cool, but i also liked the theme from the previous alpha release, build 5048. oh well, hopefully theyll give us more of a variety this time around. the graphical "eye-candy" theyve promised sounds interesting as well, transparencies are sexy ;) one thing im not looking forward to is the inevitable compatibility issues, and significant bugs that come with a new OS. I didnt start using XP until 2 years after it came out because of the problems i heard about regarding it. lets hope Vista (ughh....i like Longhorn better) fares better. Overall, i have optimism, we'll see if it delivers.

-Wild

[kvidell]

Yeah that blows, I always loved how Windows shared the entire C drive.

(//host/$c ;-))
{drive}$ ;) You were close though.
That was a nice feature though... If people were annoying I could smb mount them and use a while loop and DD to fill their hd up using 100 megs of my /dev/urandom... ;P

I'm not sure what to think of Vista... I have a VMWare 5 license so I guess I _could_ play with it.
I didn't like IE7 at all though, I know that much.
- Kev

[MetalMusicAddict]

There more screenshots HERE (http://www.winsupersite.com/vista/).

Ill see how it goes. Now I dont think I will upgrade. I do like however the way you can organize, view and edit media.

Meh... Not raising hairs on the back of my neck.

[kvidell]

There more screenshots HERE (http://www.winsupersite.com/vista/).

Ill see how it goes. Now I dont think I will upgrade. I do like however the way you can organize, view and edit media.

Meh... Not raising hairs on the back of my neck.
Funny how their voice software icon looks exactly like OS10's and their media browser thing looks just like Finder.

Ugh.
- Kev

[Kvark]

Those screenshots aren't impressive, add transperancy and other effects to gnome and it'll make a lot better use of them and look a lot prettier. But vista will hopefully have some good things, like a good CLI.

While talking about "Vista". Longhorn was a good name. And suiting since it takes so long to get it released. Vista... WTF does Vista mean? asta la vista baby? Might be suiting too, many users will switch from xp to linux instead of from xp to vista.

[panickedthumb]

One definition of Vista from dictionary.com is a bit ironic: "A distant view or prospect,"

[bored2k]

Those screenshots aren't impressive, add transperancy and other effects to gnome and it'll make a lot better use of them and look a lot prettier. But vista will hopefully have some good things, like a good CLI.

While talking about "Vista". Longhorn was a good name. And suiting since it takes so long to get it released. Vista... WTF does Vista mean? asta la vista baby? Might be suiting too, many users will switch from xp to linux instead of from xp to vista.
Microsoft representatives explained it was a spanish word and how it was going to change our POV. I couldn't blame you for not knowing. It would take a lot of torture for me to believe the guys @ theinquirer know Jack http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=24869 .

[benplaut]

One definition of Vista from dictionary.com is a bit ironic: "A distant view or prospect,"

are you sure that isn't on purpose? :roll:

anyways...

i personally think it's kinda sad that the world's best paid team of programmers (i assume, anyway) hasn't really come up with anything new in terms of productivity in... the last 6 years, is it, and they don't plan on adding it until 2011 :roll:

[bored2k]

are you sure that isn't on purpose? :roll:

anyways...

i personally think it's kinda sad that the world's best paid team of programmers (i assume, anyway) hasn't really come up with anything new in terms of productivity in... the last 6 years, is it, and they don't plan on adding it until 2011 :roll:
Just like Internet Explorer, the competition has never been as fierce as now. Without Firefox I don't think we would have heard of IE7 anytime soon. What groundbreaking features have "the world's best paid team of programmers" come up with in the last 3-4 years for Microsoft Office? None I could point out. If OOo keeps getting better (and faster ...) expect them to try and change their Office Suite from scratch. I guess they're following the "It if ain't broke, don't fix it" motto, problem is, it's been broken for quite some time now.

[benplaut]

Just like Internet Explorer, the competition has never been as fierce as now. Without Firefox I don't think we would have heard of IE7 anytime soon. What groundbreaking features have "the world's best paid team of programmers" come up with in the last 3-4 years for Microsoft Office? None I could point out. If OOo keeps getting better (and faster ...) expect them to try and change their Office Suite from scratch. I guess they're following the "It if ain't broke, don't fix it" motto, problem is, it's been broken for quite some time now.

what do you think of this?

http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,121104,00.asp

i heard something rather different here on the forum (can't remember from whom), but if so, that's great news! :)

[bored2k]

what do you think of this?

http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,121104,00.asp

i heard something rather different here on the forum (can't remember from whom), but if so, that's great news! :)
Office 12 won't be the first version of Office to support XML; Office 2003 can save Word and Excel files in XML formats, and Office XP included an XML spreadsheet format. But adopting XML as the default is a major change that should improve interoperability with third-party apps that have struggled with today's famously nebulous and poorly documented Office binary file formats. Even though Microsoft will be using its own schemas, Capossela says that the company will make them widely accessible, which in theory should help competitors such as WordPerfect and OpenOffice handle the new formats. If they really make this happen, I will be happy man. No more switching to Windows just because I need to make sure my Office files are compatible and look the way I want them to before going to my nearest "print city" or using them on another PC. I don't see how that would make me want to use MS Office any more/less that I want to know, but it could _rock .

[panickedthumb]

Just so you know, the XML formats of Office 12 are totally incompatible with GPL. OpenOffice won't be able to use them.

[bored2k]

Just so you know, the XML formats of Office 12 are totally incompatible with GPL. OpenOffice won't be able to use them.
... I knew it was too darn good to be true. Hooray for GRUB.

[kvidell]

If they really make this happen, I will be happy man. No more switching to Windows just because I need to make sure my Office files are compatible and look the way I want them to before going to my nearest "print city" or using them on another PC. I don't see how that would make me want to use MS Office any more/less that I want to know, but it could _rock .
We just save everything as PDF if we're worried about other people being able to view it.

[benplaut]

Just so you know, the XML formats of Office 12 are totally incompatible with GPL. OpenOffice won't be able to use them.

are you sure someone from... (what's the current favorite... switzerland?) switzerland, i guess, will come up with a non-GPL workaround, only available to the... *cough cough* swiss?

or, not... never mind...

[poofyhairguy]

are you sure someone from... (what's the current favorite... switzerland?) switzerland, i guess, will come up with a non-GPL workaround, only available to the... *cough cough* swiss?

or, not... never mind...


Oh..it will come.

Fork of Openoffice anyone?

[NoTiG]

I think Windows Vista is looking good actually . IF you look at the interface for the file browser, not only does it look nice... but compared to the new 2.12 there is less wasted space. Now granted the new nautilus is good as well... But I think you have to admit that windows XP is better than windows 98. And windows vista will be better than xp. They are making the browser more modular so that if it is compromised, it will not effect the whole system. The IE7 might not be good now but you shouldn't judge it till its finished as well. I doubt that it will be hard to make it as feature rich as firefox, but firefox's advantage will be standards compliance and an extensive amount of third party plug-ins already in place. So you have stability, security, usability. It will most likely be as stable as XP is or better. I dual boot and XP is alot better than older versions stability wise, still not perfect. But it is becoming less of an issue..... Performance wise linux is better... but it is only something that power users will likely notice. It remains to be seen how well windows Vista will multi task.... I think their copying of MacOS on many fronts is actually a good thing for them. Desktop acceleration will be a huge bonus to users I think, and if there is one feature that vista will have that will make people wan't to upgrade, that is probably it.

I think vista will be nice, but expensive. People have XP already and its actually pretty good and it works, which means less incentive to upgrade. When Vista rolls around in the beginning of 2007, I doubt a large portion will go out and buy it however. They will probalby have to rely on computer sales and vendor lockin to sell it, so it won't gain alot of market share for years at least.

Linux is catching up. It has something windows doesn't have, and thats a snowball effect. The more people use it, the more contribute back to it and it escalates. That is actually really powerful, and it will be unstoppable. The only way it can be stopped is if microsoft somehow really hurts it by using as many proprietary formats as possible. But even then..... I don't think it has a chance. And after watching mark shuttleworth at debian CONF I am pretty sure that Ubuntu is going to be here for a long time, and it is going to be the best distribution, the leader if you will.

My prediction: in two years time linux will have caught up... XGL will be in place and ATI and nvidia owners will both have decent drivers , taking advantage of openGL. Usability and performance will be on Par with windows vista. Installing and migrating from windows will be streamlined. Open source software alternatives will be reaching their equivalents in functionality and in some cases surpassing. Office users will have free software that is as good as their counterparts. Perhaps Reiser FS will take over as the file system as well. Something like beagle will be in place making search integrated. Everything about linux will be as good or superior to vista except games, and some other (important) software like Photoshop, dreamweaver etc.... The alternatives to these however (like Gimp) will catch up but not quite. Yet wine will also improve so that many of these programs will work. FIrefox will have gained even more marketshare by the time Vista is out, and people will be happy with it so that itself is one less reason to upgrade to windows. If linux does start taking over in desktop share at this point, it will be with older hardware that wants to take advantage of using its graphics card to accelerate the desktop. Linux will make 5% by 2010. Im not sure if they will make their 10 X 10, that seems pretty ballsy. Of course we are talking about the world here, not just America. In two years time there will be a graphical installation tool for .debs, and since ubuntu will be the most popular distribution, then installation will become pretty streamlined. (autopackage may help as well) .

++ eyecandy
++ usability
++ security
++ performance
++ freedom

Linux enemies: Hardware and peripheral drivers (printers, scanners, PDas , Graphics cards etc....) , unportable software (visual basic, DirectX), Codecs(wmv, mp3 etc...), and installation issues. With the improvement of Mono, and SDL hopefully more developers will become attracted. Ogg is already better than Mp3... automate scripts exist for installing codecs.. the open source java will become usable.. Will theora catch up to MP4? Once these older users migrate and linux gains marketshare these problems will correct themselves.

[Kvark]

are you sure someone from... (what's the current favorite... switzerland?) switzerland, i guess, will come up with a non-GPL workaround, only available to the... *cough cough* swiss?

or, not... never mind...
I think this will happen with a lot of FOSS software, maybe even with whole distros. One patent free version for US and Japan. And a full version for everywhere else.

Wonder which countries have enforceable software patents, which ones have software patents but doubtful legal backup for them and which ones doesn't have it.

My prediction: in two years time linux will have caught up... XGL will be in place and ATI and nvidia owners will both have decent drivers , taking advantage of openGL. Usability and performance will be on Par with windows vista. Installing and migrating from windows will be streamlined. Open source software alternatives will be reaching their equivalents in functionality and in some cases surpassing. Office users will have free software that is as good as their counterparts. Perhaps Reiser FS will take over as the file system as well. Something like beagle will be in place making search integrated. Everything about linux will be as good or superior to vista except games, and some other (important) software like Photoshop, dreamweaver etc.... The alternatives to these however (like Gimp) will catch up but not quite. Yet wine will also improve so that many of these programs will work. FIrefox will have gained even more marketshare by the time Vista is out, and people will be happy with it so that itself is one less reason to upgrade to windows. If linux does start taking over in desktop share at this point, it will be with older hardware that wants to take advantage of using its graphics card to accelerate the desktop. Linux will make 5% by 2010. Im not sure if they will make their 10 X 10, that seems pretty ballsy. Of course we are talking about the world here, not just America. In two years time there will be a graphical installation tool for .debs, and since ubuntu will be the most popular distribution, then installation will become pretty streamlined. (autopackage may help as well) .
I dissagree with some of the points there.

With proper drivers linux performerance will be a lot better then windows. Unless vista is very lean, but last time microsoft made a lean OS performerance wise was win98.

Also, photoshop was a part of my highschool education, I still have a fat paperbook plus many MB of electronic photoshop school documentation. Yet I can accomplish more with the gimp, it is actually ahead of photoshop in most areas.

Lastly a global count of market share won't say much about reality 5 years from now. Linux will have a very large part of the market in some developing nations while windows will still have practically monopoly in most rich nations. (Thats why I think there will be one full version and one patent free version of many FOSS projects. Why would for example a distro give everyone a version adapted to US laws if almost the entire userbase is from other places.)

[somuchfortheafter]

idk i think 2k was the last os they made for speed, also gimp sorry to offend anyone but it is extremely behind photoshop interms of features that graphics artist need, dont get me wrong it accomplishes all i need it to but its not comparable to ps yet.

[Kvark]

idk i think 2k was the last os they made for speed, also gimp sorry to offend anyone but it is extremely behind photoshop interms of features that graphics artist need, dont get me wrong it accomplishes all i need it to but its not comparable to ps yet.
True 2k is also reasonably fast, and stable too. Probably the best windows version so far.

I agree that the gimp is very far behind in some areas. For example you can't make a html menu with rollover effects and everything in the gimp. The Gimp lacks a lot that a 'studio MX'-artist needs.

But I would still make the images one by one and pussle the html together myself to optimize it for my specific situation. The Gimp doesn't lack anything an artist/coder hybrid who uses gedit instead of dreamweaver needs. Add that it does some things in a smarter way then photoshop and it is actually the best tool for some.

[newbie2]

Microsoft Vista means you need new monitors
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=25094

[Hamman]

Microsoft Vista means you need new monitors
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=25094
MS holy quest to stop people from copying their music and movies is not only pathetic, but dangerous too. 'The Scene' will always find ways to copy and distribute warez, just look at Win XP's product registration, it only made it more difficult for the average user and didn't stop cracked versions of XP being uploaded to a torrent tracker near you.
Hopefully, people will wake up from their apathy and force MS to drop these things.Otherwise, 1984 isn't far away.
I know that I won't be installing Vista. Supporting a company that does everything in it's power to control me isn't something I'm gonna do. And nothing looks really impressive. Security-wise MS is just catching up with Linux and OSX. UI-wise they're improving some things, like the dialog boxes and adding hardware acceleration for the desktop, something that already exists in OSX and is being developed for *nix.
To me, Vista mostly seems to be about getting the masses to adopt DRM and Palladium.

[poofyhairguy]

My prediction: in two years time linux will have caught up... XGL will be in place and ATI and nvidia owners will both have decent drivers , taking advantage of openGL.

This is the part that is fantasy. Xgl will take three or so years to get together, and ATI seem to refuse to focus on 2D.


When Vista comes out...it WILL beat Linux for Eye Candy for everyone not using Nvidia with a nerd streak. The drivers will make the difference.

But we will grow for older computers. We need more light distros.

[WildTangent]

Microsoft Vista means you need new monitors
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=25094
if they have this implemented by the time my parents get around to getting a new PC, im going to be pissed. thats absolutely rediculous. im sure someone will find a workaround, but you shouldnt have to deal with that in the first place.

-Wild

[amrust]

Wonder what they mean by "protected digital content", exactly?

[gray-squirrel]

Microsoft Vista means you need new monitors
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=25094


Display copy protection for LCD monitors? Isn't this overkill?

[NoTiG]

This is the part that is fantasy. Xgl will take three or so years to get together, and ATI seem to refuse to focus on 2D.


When Vista comes out...it WILL beat Linux for Eye Candy for everyone not using Nvidia with a nerd streak. The drivers will make the difference.

But we will grow for older computers. We need more light distros.


Where do you get the 3 year figure from? I was just guessing so if you have some info that would be interesting.

IF desktop acceleration uses opengl calls , then why would having a desktop accelerated ATI driver be worse than none? Any desktop acceleration is better than none at all.

[poofyhairguy]

Where do you get the 3 year figure from? I was just guessing so if you have some info that would be interesting.

Xgl development started this year. Most of the other major eye candy projects (xcompmgr, xrender, KDE, etc.) are not relying or depending on it at all. They are all trying to do things without it. Quotes from the leaders of those projects have lead me to believe that its in the FAR future. That says at least two or three years to me. As a new project with such a big task, it will be at least 2007.


IF desktop acceleration uses opengl calls , then why would having a desktop accelerated ATI driver be worse than none? Any desktop acceleration is better than none at all.

True. I was thinking about "in comparison."

[poofyhairguy]

Display copy protection for LCD monitors? Isn't this overkill?

Nope. Plugging the analog hole.

[NoTiG]

Xgl development started this year. Most of the other major eye candy projects (xcompmgr, xrender, KDE, etc.) are not relying or depending on it at all. They are all trying to do things without it. Quotes from the leaders of those projects have lead me to believe that its in the FAR future. That says at least two or three years to me. As a new project with such a big task, it will be at least 2007.




General Xgl and glitz development = 60% complete

http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software_2fXgl

Not sure if that is a telling number, even if it is 60%. I could probably be another 3 years till its stable enough i dont know. I was hoping two (at least around the time longhorn shows up would have been nice) .

Glitz can be used as a stand-alone layer above OpenGL but is also designed to act as a backend for [WWW]cairo, providing it with OpenGL accelerated output.

All these technologies on top of another is a little confusing, but it looks like we need xgl > opengl > glitz > cairo ... or something.

Im surprised more comment is not made on exa (http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/xorg/2005-June/008356.html)

want to make sure the following things are very clear:
1) Exa can coexist with XAA. You can keep code for both in your driver.
2) Exa doesn't depend on any changes to the Xserver. Once we'll feel it
served its purpose we can simply remove the exa dir and the relevant
driver code and we'll be sure that no cruft has been left in the
server.
3) As everyone can see adding Exa support to a driver which already has
XAA support is trivial.
4) Following the 7 steps I outlined above will speed up the common
desktop usage by quite a bit. Note that you don't have to be a driver
developer to switch any of those drivers. Note that this also means
that we can easily give the useless, but oh-so-wanted transparent
windows to everyone right now. Not next year, not when library X will
be ready - now, as in today.
5) Implementing the download/upload/composite hooks will give us enough
power to have very fancy effects that will let us compete with
Microsoft/Apple desktops while we work on Xgl.
6) The code as presented in the snapshot will be checked in on Monday
morning/Sunday night, dependently on the feedback I'm going to get.

Zack

The next X.org release which is expected to contain Exa is planned to be released in September.

\\:D/

Its not dependent on any toolkit, not like Evas which is part of a toolkit. It's in the Xserver and not specific to Qt.

http://dot.kde.org/1119948104/

[newbie2]

"Virus writers have created proof of concept viruses targeting the scripting language behind prototype versions of Vista, the next version of Windows. An Austrian virus writer has published five simple viruses targeting Microsoft Command Shell (MSH), the command line interface and scripting language, in a virus writing magazine. None of these pieces of malware have been named as yet [How about phista - Ed?]."
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/08/04/vista_virus/
:roll: :roll: :roll:

[Ubunted]

A Windows virus 16 months before release day. That's gotta be some kind of record.

[Brunellus]

A Windows virus 16 months before release day. That's gotta be some kind of record.

...and, unlike Windows, it probably works exactly as they advertise when they do release it.

Seriously, folks. Other than having Vista on new hardware, what's the benefit of upgrading to Vista for existing XP and 2k users?

Not too many, I think. That's not to say we're going to have a flood of new Ubuntu users--rather, people will just stand pat and use whatever they still have.

[Knome_fan]

"Virus writers have created proof of concept viruses targeting the scripting language behind prototype versions of Vista, the next version of Windows. An Austrian virus writer has published five simple viruses targeting Microsoft Command Shell (MSH), the command line interface and scripting language, in a virus writing magazine. None of these pieces of malware have been named as yet [How about phista - Ed?]."
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/08/04/vista_virus/
:roll: :roll: :roll:

Let's be fair here kids.
As is the case with so many features MS promised for Vista, it's far from certain that the MSH will even make it into Vista. Now if that isn't a relieve. :wink:

[newbie2]

Let's be fair here kids.
As is the case with so many features MS promised for Vista, it's far from certain that the MSH will even make it into Vista. Now if that isn't a relieve. :wink:
June 9, 2005
"The latest element to get the ax is "Monad," aka MSH (Microsoft Shell), which Microsoft Corp. has touted as its alternative to the scripting shells that Unix and Linux programmers know and love."
http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1826011,00.asp?kc=EWRSS03129TX1K0000610

August 04, 2005
" It was initially expected in Vista, but Microsoft hinted a couple of months ago that it may not be ready for initial versions of the Vista client or server. However, Microsoft has confirmed that Monad will be included in Exchange 12, the next version of the company's collaboration server due in the second half of 2006.
The proof-of-concept viruses, along with detailed explanations of how they work, were included in a magazine that was published on the Web over the last week. The viruses' only action is to infect other shell scripts on the host's operating system. They would cause little harm in the wild, but would be relatively easy to modify using the information from the article, said Hyppönen in a blog posting on Thursday.
He warned that if Microsoft ships Monad with Vista and it is enabled by default this could lead to an "outbreak of scripting viruses". Microsoft may choose to ship the tool as an add-on or disable it by default to reduce the risk, he added."
http://news.zdnet.co.uk/0,39020330,39212024,00.htm
:-P :-P :-P

[gray-squirrel]

...and, unlike Windows, it probably works exactly as they advertise when they do release it.

Seriously, folks. Other than having Vista on new hardware, what's the benefit of upgrading to Vista for existing XP and 2k users?

Not too many, I think. That's not to say we're going to have a flood of new Ubuntu users--rather, people will just stand pat and use whatever they still have.

That's assuming the proposals of the TCPA don't get too far. If the alliance gets its way, people will eventually either be forced to go with the program or be left in the cold.

[poofyhairguy]

That's assuming the proposals of the TCPA don't get too far. If the alliance gets its way, people will eventually either be forced to go with the program or be left in the cold.

The cold never sounded so good.

[newbie2]

Seriously, folks. Other than having Vista on new hardware, what's the benefit of upgrading to Vista for existing XP and 2k users?
August 5, 2005
"Updated: Microsoft's next OS will tax PC graphics, analysts say, and systems with integrated graphics might not display the Aero Glass interface. "
http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,1843945,00.asp
http://www.eweek.com/category2/0,1874,1840947,00.asp

[Ride Jib]

I think this picture is priceless...

http://www.winsupersite.com/images/showcase/winvista_logon_f.jpg

This appears to me as a list, not a sequence of clickables... and MS nailed it right on the head. hahha

[drizek]

lol nice find.

[Qrk]

I think its very pretty, but you won't find it on my computer. My computer is slow enough with XP, I highly doubt Vista will be usable on it. And if I balk at spending $100 on windows, I probably won't spend $800 for a new computer when Ubuntu runs just fine on this one. My days of buying a new computer every three years are over. If Gnome ever gets too big for it, I can move to xfce.

[Stormy Eyes]

Since it seems like Microsoft is all out of ideas, and they seem to be taking ideas from other sources

That's business as usual for Microsoft. Why do you think Apple once sued Microsoft, claiming that MS 'stole' Apple's "look and fell"? Bill Gates is the Peter Keating of software development, IMHO.

[Stormy Eyes]

The cold never sounded so good.

Indeed. I've got a nice coat, after all, and a good pair of boots.

[tseliot]

I think this picture is priceless...

http://www.winsupersite.com/images/showcase/winvista_logon_f.jpg

This appears to me as a list, not a sequence of clickables... and MS nailed it right on the head. hahha
It's priceless and exhilarating: "Windows Security" ... what a nice oxymoron ;-p

[GoA]

I think that vista will be more secure than any other microsoft system. Depending on linux development, it may be THE operating system I want to use. Secure, stable, easy using and eyecandy.

[lao_V]

Not trying to spoil your fun or anything but aren't some of the more recent comments slightly anti MS/against the thread topic?

[Brunellus]

Not trying to spoil your fun or anything but aren't some of the more recent comments slightly anti MS/against the thread topic?
Consensus seems to be:

1) Vista is shiny.
2) Vista is very resource-hungry.
3) Vista is very expensive.
4) Vista, while incorporating more security features than XP, is still not good enough. Particularly tragicomic is the undo-able pseudosudo.

Consensus conclusion: Most users here are disinclined to upgrade to Vista. Some will get it with new machines.

Am I missing anything?

[KingBahamut]

I think my biggest problem with this release is that they are going to drop 7 flavors down, im assuming in an attempt to deal with the varying needs of the consumer.

Windows Vista Starter Edition
Windows Vista Home Premium Edition
Windows Vista Home Basic Edition
Windows Vista Professional Edition
Windows Vista Small Business Edition
Windows Vista Enterprise Edition
Windows Vista Ultimate Edition

All I see is one Stripped down version over another. Nothing that really appeals to the consumer functionality wise. The scary part about it is the average consumer will buy into it without questioning wether it actually works.

[christooss]

I think my biggest problem with this release is that they are going to drop 7 flavors down, im assuming in an attempt to deal with the varying needs of the consumer.

Windows Vista Starter Edition
Windows Vista Home Premium Edition
Windows Vista Home Basic Edition
Windows Vista Professional Edition
Windows Vista Small Business Edition
Windows Vista Enterprise Edition
Windows Vista Ultimate Edition

All I see is one Stripped down version over another. Nothing that really appeals to the consumer functionality wise. The scary part about it is the average consumer will buy into it without questioning wether it actually works.
Windows Vista Starter Edition will alowe only three aplications runing at same time

Which aplicatons will that be :)
1)Anti-Spyware
2)Firewall
3)Virus

You won't be able to use any other aplicatons.

I won't use vista beacause I will have to buy new monitor!!! which will include DRM

[lao_V]

One thing that should be kept in mind is that Vista is still in Beta 1 and should not be confused as the final product.

Aside from that, I think Vista is heading into a direction which is much closer to *nix. This should generally be considered good because it is educating mass number of people in doing things correctly.

Surely Vista will have its flaws in many areas as MS are poised to with their underlying technology, but it is still going to be the most widely used OS by far.

[Brunellus]

One thing that should be kept in mind is that Vista is still in Beta 1 and should not be confused as the final product.

Aside from that, I think Vista is heading into a direction which is much closer to *nix. This should generally be considered good because it is educating mass number of people in doing things correctly.

Surely Vista will have its flaws in many areas as MS are poised to with their underlying technology, but it is still going to be the most widely used OS by far.
I'm waiting for MS to go with a FreeBSD core.

[KingBahamut]

One thing that should be kept in mind is that Vista is still in Beta 1 and should not be confused as the final product.

Aside from that, I think Vista is heading into a direction which is much closer to *nix. This should generally be considered good because it is educating mass number of people in doing things correctly.

Surely Vista will have its flaws in many areas as MS are poised to with their underlying technology, but it is still going to be the most widely used OS by far.


This would depend largely on the concept of whether or not Monad actually works....which from what I understand, it doesnt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MSH_(shell)

Subscription based programs as well, AV, AS, and so forth. DRM itself is scary. Messman over at Novell thinks (I made a post of this in Community a bit ago) that the costs involved with migrating to Vista will naturally encourage users to go to an alternative. And I disagree...It will not be the most widely used OS, it will be the straw that breaks the camels back, because major corps wont spend the excess money to migrate to it , when many cheaper, safer, and more stable alternatives exist.

[Brunellus]

This would depend largely on the concept of whether or not Monad actually works....which from what I understand, it doesnt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MSH_(shell)

Subscription based programs as well, AV, AS, and so forth. DRM itself is scary. Messman over at Novell thinks (I made a post of this in Community a bit ago) that the costs involved with migrating to Vista will naturally encourage users to go to an alternative. And I disagree...It will not be the most widely used OS, it will be the straw that breaks the camels back, because major corps wont spend the excess money to migrate to it , when many cheaper, safer, and more stable alternatives exist.
....like XP!

seriously. how many corps do you seriously think will risk breakage with their previous stuff?

[karuptdata]

Personally I think that Microsoft wishes that it had the complexity of Linux but they will never ever ever get to where linux has grown and as far as the claim of spyware well as long as they use .exe there will be spyware and viruses LOL...

[poofyhairguy]

Windows Vista Ultimate Edition


I love how that one is made to suck in gamers!

[KingBahamut]

PHG, doesnt suck in this gamer.

=)

[Qrk]

Why would anyone upgrade from XP to this?

It doesn't really address where XP fails (spyware, viruses, crippled editions) and adds on to things that don't really need help, like the GUI. All that eye candy doesn't really add to user expirence. (on a related note .... is KDE listening?)

[Brunellus]

Why would anyone upgrade from XP to this?

It doesn't really address where XP fails (spyware, viruses, crippled editions) and adds on to things that don't really need help, like the GUI. All that eye candy doesn't really add to user expirence. (on a related note .... is KDE listening?)
not to sound snide, but...does KDE care?

KDE 3.4 looks good and works well. It's not my DE of choice, but I can see why people like it.

[escuchamezz]

Forget the 7 flavours of Vista, as long as devil0wn (FCKGW ;-) ) release a corporate release on bittorent then Microsoft won't have a problem at all :razz:

[xequence]

Forget the 7 flavours of Vista, as long as devil0wn (FCKGW ;-) ) release a corporate release on bittorent then Microsoft won't have a problem at all :razz:

They will have a problem. They always have a problem when people pirate their products.

But people pirating their products makes many many many more people use them. (Im not sure who this devil0wn person is but vertigo sure makes a good XP lite over there on demonoid =O)

[Smirf]

I've heard that DRM will be put in hardware, so you most use a DRM capable OS to be able to use your rig, IE PCs will only run Windows.

Is there any truth in that?

[christooss]

DRM is ALREADY put in hardware

DRM will be put in monitors so that you will need to own new monitor to see new hd-dvd movies

[Mr_J_]

Honestly!
Who cares about that OS anyway?

Monad Shell - I can only dream of the amounts of excuses I can draw from that very issue to ask people to try out Linux. Script Viruses aren't a problem?
This isn't linux were talking about here, this is windows. Surprisingly linux people tend to be right on such things as viruses and where they'd come from.
Even if we have little to no contact with them.

The aero effect is going to be another thing to shut off in a hole hell of stream of computers. Bundles of them. Most people I know aren't really looking at spending more money in computers in the near future. The latter years will be most likely unstopable tho. I know people without a pc in their home. Others have the bare minimum to use XP in their homes and offices.

Of all the people I know I am the only one with bare minimum to even boot Vista.
Not that I am. Linux works for me and I can't give a rats *** about Windows * anything in the years to come.

I would love to see them get that paranoid with DRM and the like.
Pretty please with sugar on top let them allow that blu-ray cd reader/writter that melts with an insertion of an illegal blu-ray.

Now imagine a script to indicate all cds are illegal. I can feel the contained laughter inside.

I could barely handle spyware in XP and I am a power user.
I could go without an anti-viral app, using only windows firewall, and a spyware program and crap would still get in.

The Vista OS is just a glass apple. Looks good until you bite it.

[Smirf]

DRM is ALREADY put in hardware

DRM will be put in monitors so that you will need to own new monitor to see new hd-dvd movies

Are you really sure? That doesn't seem as a sound marketing strategy. Now 100% of the user base use none DRM monitors. When HD-DVD movies are released the vast majority will still use their old monitors and TVs. Meaning HD-DVD sales would be non-existent.

[BoyOfDestiny]

Are you really sure? That doesn't seem as a sound marketing strategy. Now 100% of the user base use none DRM monitors. When HD-DVD movies are released the vast majority will still use their old monitors and TVs. Meaning HD-DVD sales would be non-existent.

Well as far as I know it isn't there yet. However, they are thinking about it.

http://www.freedom-to-tinker.com/?p=882

As for those willing to wait out in the cold, I'll join ya. We can huddle together like the mighty penguins...

Anyway as for europe being safe, even DVD jon is coming over here.

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20051019-5455.html

I guess the countries that did not join the EU are likely to be better off (in terms of DRM, intellectual property and patents...) I mean that from the perspective of the consumer, programmer, scientist, etc. Not the perspective of the lobbyist, lawyer, or officials.

[asimon]

Are you really sure? That doesn't seem as a sound marketing strategy. Now 100% of the user base use none DRM monitors. When HD-DVD movies are released the vast majority will still use their old monitors and TVs. Meaning HD-DVD sales would be non-existent.

AFAIK you will still be able to view your DRM-protected HD-DVDs with non DRM monitors but not at the full resolution and quality. For the full "joy" you'll need DRM compatible hardware though, including the monitor. Happy new world.

[GeneralZod]

AFAIK you will still be able to view your DRM-protected HD-DVDs with non DRM monitors but not at the full resolution and quality. For the full "joy" you'll need DRM compatible hardware though, including the monitor. Happy new world.

Thankfully, this particular DRM implementation has allegedly been cracked already (I can't remember the details, but I think there's a box you can plug in between monitor and computer which "pretends" to be a DRM-enabled monitor). However, we shouldn't fall into the trap of thinking all such measures are so easily broken; after all, it was only through sheer dumb luck (pretty much) that DeCSS was eventually created, and the DRM implementors will have learned from their mistakes. Trusted Computing, for example, is damn-near unbreakable.

Edit:

Actually, it seems that luck may not have played that large a part in the creation of decss after all. Here's some history:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decss

Certainly, we can be assured that a mere 40-bit key will never be used again.

[christooss]

DRm cannot be cracked beacause its not a software solution

[BoyOfDestiny]

DRm cannot be cracked beacause its not a software solution
Please don't spread FUD.
It's hardware + software. If you can compromise one or the other, then you are set. For sure it will be harder in the case of hardware, the best way is not to buy it.
Boycott and it will die like divx (not the codec) the player that circuit city sold, basically throw away DVDs... Google it if you aren't familiar with it. The player needed to be connected to a phone jack, it would know when/where/what you played. The discs would only work for a limited time.
Sounds familiar right?

[panickedthumb]

Please don't spread FUD.

Fear, uncertainty, and doubt.

If Cristooss was incorrect, that's misinformation, but it's neither fear, uncertainty, or doubt. And while the term has spread to other meanings, it's still seen as a marketing term to purposefully get people to not use a competitor's product. I don't think any of that applies.

So please don't spread FUD about people spreading FUD :)
In the open source world, saying that people are spreading FUD is about on par with insulting someone's mother.

[christooss]

Hm processor multiplier is hardware based and its 's been locked since pentium3 (I think) it hasn't been cracked/unlocked. Its same with DRM.

[GeneralZod]

DRm cannot be cracked beacause its not a software solution

There seems to be some confusion here: the term "DRM" stands for Digital Rights Management, and can be either software or hardware based. Apple's "Fairplay" DRM, for example, is software-based, and has been cracked wide open (see e.g. "jhymn"), so your statement as it stands is not correct :)

[Goober]

Just wondering, does anybody have specs for VISTA? I've been looking around on Google a bit, but I couldn't find how much it will cost in U$D, what specs it will need, etc.

And golly-gee, that looks a lot like XP . . . with a different theme, naturally.

[AllenP]

I installed widows vista onto my laptop a few weeks ago. The reccomended specson the read-me were a 1.4ghz processor and 512of ram. I ended up hating Windows Vista. My laptop could barely run it. It was so slow that I couldnt even listen to music, and when I could, it skipped (i suspect a driver problem). It tried to automate everything and had 50 + processes running. The explorer used immense amounts of my memory. I decided that if this was the direction that windows was taking with their new OS, that I didnt want any part in it. That's when I started becoming interested in Linux. I had never used linux before, but I got a few live CD's and concluded that it wouldnt be impossibly dificult to learn. I finaly settled on Ubuntu, I like Ubuntu and doubt that I will ever completely return to a microsoft OS again. Thanks Windows Vista, for introducing me to linux.

[Malphas]

Considering Vista will probably only run on today's high end machines, will be crippled with NGSCB and the fact that it doesn't actually seem to offer any benefits over XP other than a few bells and whistles, I think it'll be a long time before Vista begins to overtake XP in the desktop market alone, especially since a large number of people are still plugging away with Windows 98 and ME.

[BoyOfDestiny]

Fear, uncertainty, and doubt.

If Cristooss was incorrect, that's misinformation, but it's neither fear, uncertainty, or doubt. And while the term has spread to other meanings, it's still seen as a marketing term to purposefully get people to not use a competitor's product. I don't think any of that applies.

So please don't spread FUD about people spreading FUD :)
In the open source world, saying that people are spreading FUD is about on par with insulting someone's mother.

I'd like to complain about people who complain about people who complain...
I cheerfully retract it if there was no FUD.
However, the fear is that DRM is uncrackable. The uncertainty is where will linux fit in with this scheme (not to mention DRM was stated as "not software"). The doubt is will we still own our machines and software, or merely be renting.

Can you give me an example of what FUD is then if not this? Would it literally have to say that Linux is the boogie man, and lives under your bed to be FUD?

Anyway, I apologize if you think I misused the term, but the last thing we need are people preaching DRM cannot be beaten.

EDIT: I found a linux cd under my bed! :)

[BoyOfDestiny]

Hm processor multiplier is hardware based and its 's been locked since pentium3 (I think) it hasn't been cracked/unlocked. Its same with DRM.

http://www.tomshardware.com/motherboard/20010430/apollopro266-13.html

It's common knowledge that the majority of Pentium III and Celeron processors have a lock on their multipliers, which, unlike AMD processors, cannot be unlocked. The only possibility of overclocking this kind of CPU is to pump up the front side bus.

At least there is a "workaround". So there shall be with DRM.

[BRODEL]

I put Vista on my laptop a few weeks ago. At first I thought it was cool, but after a while I realized it was slower than XP was on my system. Now I don't have the greatest laptop in the world (2.4GHz 512MB RAM 40GB HDD) but it should of ran with NO problems in my mind. Actually I should be thankful. After running Vista for a week I realized it was getting time for me to try linux again and it brought me to ubuntu. I have my own issues with ubuntu, but they are issues with me not knowing how everything works. I've been using Windows for far too long. Anyway, I think a lot of people would be better off not upgrading to Vista. I know I am going to avoid it if at all possible.

Vista to me was a bunch of pointless GUI sugar. I run my PC to do stuff not to look at the pretty menus. I will still have to deal with Vista at work eventually, but I'll avoid it on my personal systems if at all possible.

[BoyOfDestiny]

I put Vista on my laptop a few weeks ago. At first I thought it was cool, but after a while I realized it was slower than XP was on my system. Now I don't have the greatest laptop in the world (2.4GHz 512MB RAM 40GB HDD) but it should of ran with NO problems in my mind. Actually I should be thankful. After running Vista for a week I realized it was getting time for me to try linux again and it brought me to ubuntu. I have my own issues with ubuntu, but they are issues with me not knowing how everything works. I've been using Windows for far too long. Anyway, I think a lot of people would be better off not upgrading to Vista. I know I am going to avoid it if at all possible.

Vista to me was a bunch of pointless GUI sugar. I run my PC to do stuff not to look at the pretty menus. I will still have to deal with Vista at work eventually, but I'll avoid it on my personal systems if at all possible.

Yeah, I rather have people stay with XP.
I remember when I chatted with a friend and he said "Windows vista is going to be great! It's going to be the next windows 2000".

Although I hated to break the news to him :rolleyes: , I simply said "google".
About 5 minutes later he said "Oh..."

There were very good reasons for ditching 9x for XP. I don't see a good reason for ditching XP for Vista.
I think for most when they buy a computer it will come pre-installed, and the cycle continues...

[Goober]

The one thing I must admit that I like about VISTA is the eye candy. That glass theme is soooo nice looking.

From what I have heard, that is about all there is to like. I have been doing some research, and, well, it seems that Microsoft might be somewhat shooting themselves in the foot here if VISTA requires a high-end computer to run properly, and doesn't offer any major advantages over XP. I do admit that XP, compared to previous versions of Windoze, is fairly stable, if you get it working right, and don't overload it. I certainly have no intentions to upgrade to VISTA, and I'm not sure if many others do as well.