Easy Virtual Machine

[maynoth]

I think it would be wonderful is ubuntu was designed out of box to easily support installing 2nd virtual operating system.

As much as I hate windows, I would love not having to dualboot, just to play Battlefield.

This and being able to run a select few apps natively like peerguardian, and TOR etc


Please guys this would be really really awesome.

[LaRoza]

You can easily install a virtual machine.

I use VirtualBox on Windows, and I like it.

[maynoth]

I would really like all my drives to be ext3 and run ubuntu as my only operating system.


I really don't want to run windows and then run linux as a virtualmachine inside it.

[Frak]

Or run Windows within Virtualbox, it is the best free VM for Linux, 2nd would be VMWare server.

[maynoth]

right I know its possible, but I think it it were designed out of box to do this easily, like a desktop icon or whatnot, it would be wonderful!

[Frak]

Applications->System Tools->VirtualBox after you install it.
Since VB is only needed by a certain group of people (and because the binary version is part proprietary), the devs won't add it to the installation.
http://www.virtualbox.org/wiki/Downloads

[foerdi]

It's only "needed by a group of people" because most people don't know what VB can do for them.

He's right...
If Ubuntu would have VB integrated out-of-box (perhaps some easy gnome applet for it? like vnc is integrated, too) it would be great

+1

[maynoth]

we need a fully open source version of something..

I heard the newest kernels had more Virtual machines included so perhaps by the time Gutsy comes out we could see something like this.

I hope

[Frak]

As I remember KVM is now automatically installed via the Kernel Level. Which if you computer was manufactured (or built with parts within) the last two years, you can run Full KVM.

[insane_alien]

right, how many 'average joe' users are actually going to use this? i mean, virtual machines are beyond the comprehension of most people. i have done some virtual machining and i found the install of vmware server, virtualbox, qemu, xen etc. etc. quite trivial.

if you are advanced enough to need a virtual machine then you are advanced enough to know how to install it.

[maynoth]

I think this will be a turning point for linux,
being able to run games and apps in a virtual machine and utilizing those wasted extra cpu cores would be a great selling point.

You have linux for most things, and windows for games etc.

[Frak]

Yeah, I tried suggesting that in the Gutsy Idea pool and got flamed out, because there are alot of "Micro$oft Window$ Hatter$" in these forums.

[Merk42]

I think this will be a turning point for linux,
being able to run games and apps in a virtual machine and utilizing those wasted extra cpu cores would be a great selling point.

You have linux for most things, and windows for games etc.


How would this be a turning point for Linux if it still requires you to purchase Windows?

[23meg]

Yeah, I tried suggesting that in the Gutsy Idea pool and got flamed out, because there are alot of "Micro$oft Window$ Hatter$" in these forums.

Are you talking about this thread --> [IDEA] Easy seamless virtualization (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=505673)?

If so, you've perhaps never been flamed. People have gone against your idea with reasonable counter arguments in that thread, and in a polite manner. If anyone has brought heat to the discussion, it's you, labeling the people who replied "XP bashers", neither of whom have shown the slightest symptom of "hating Windows".

It's also worth noting that the discussion has stalled immediately afterwards.

If you'd like to work on the idea, nothing is stopping you: write a blueprint (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FeatureSpecifications), get started with the code, and (ideally once you have a working proof of concept) post to the ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list (http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/Ubuntu-devel-discuss) to get feedback from Ubuntu developers, since that seems to be what you want. As has been said many times, this forum is for getting feedback on your ideas from fellow forum members, not developers, and I think you've not gone about it the best way.

[Frak]

I have no intention of releasing something like this under the GPL, MIT, or BSD license. As so, Launchpad would then not have anything to do with it.

[23meg]

Then neither would Ubuntu by default, and no developers would be able to look at it seriously and give you feedback unless you disclose the source code.

[Frak]

ok then, somebody take my ideas seriously, without doubting them because "it isn't filling in the gaps that Ubuntu lacks in".
I know plenty of people that have left Ubuntu because it couldn't do what Windows could, and thats losing potential users.

Its feasable, and it buys time. Ubuntu at the moment is losing, because we all fail to understand that most people would like to switch, but are too lazy to learn. Until you learn that, then it will be the same old tune, "The elephant in the room that no one is talking about"

[maynoth]

Well I can and do plan on doing this eventually.

I am not stupid, I can use the command line when I have to. It's just painful for me, less command line more gui. Configing things like tor, peerguardian, etc and the ability to play games is what I want. Without having to reboot to go into my bios and change the boot priority so I boot off my windows drive.

Sure it's probably not that hard for anyone with an IQ over 105 and is actually interested in computers, but for everyone else (99.9% of the population) they really don't care.

I think its just a nice thought, If I could game on linux, without having to have a seperate partion for windows I consider this more of a victory than dual booting.

It could act as a bridge for many people. Catch a larger audience.

it's just a thought.

[Frak]

This may interest you. (http://ace2016.net/tutorials/linux/run-windows-xp-applications-seamlessly-on-your-linux-desktop)
It has a complete tutorial, from instaling Virtualbox to troubleshooting a Seamless installation.

[23meg]

ok then, somebody take my ideas seriously, without doubting them because "it isn't filling in the gaps that Ubuntu lacks in".

I do think what you set out to accomplish would be an important asset to Ubuntu. I just don't think the way you're going about it is very productive or realistic.

Ubuntu at the moment is losing, because we all fail to understand that most people would like to switch, but are too lazy to learn. Until you learn that, then it will be the same old tune, "The elephant in the room that no one is talking about"

Assumptions I would question thoroughly in the above, if I had more time, and the thread were relevant:


Ubuntu is "losing" largely because it lacks [insert feature thought to be critical]
Nobody is talking about Ubuntu
"You" (all possible persons it may be referring to) is unaware of the fact that many people who'd like to switch to Ubuntu are too lazy to learn things

[Frak]

We're in Ubuntu forums talking about a VM on Ubuntu, we are talking about ubuntu :rolleyes:
Just thought I'd let you know.

Ubuntu lacks [Insert critical business feature here]

Quit wearing Rose Colored glasses, there are flaws in Ubuntu and they can't be ignored.

P.S. Hope it doesn't step in your Lap, that would hurt ;)

[23meg]

We're in Ubuntu forums talking about a VM on Ubuntu, we are talking about ubuntu
Just thought I'd let you know.


You weren't talking about the specific subject of this thread in the part I quoted, but about broader issues. By that logic, it would be legitimate to talk about anything regarding Ubuntu in any thread in these forums; that just isn't the case. If you'd like to talk about how the lack of and people who bury their heads in sand and pretend that isn't a problem are hurting Ubuntu, the best place to do it is Community Cafe.

Ubuntu lacks [Insert critical business feature here]

And where did I say it doesn't?

Quit wearing Rose Colored glasses, there are flaws in Ubuntu and they can't be ignored.

Quit those straw man arguments; I didn't ever say (and how could anyone in their right mind say) there are no flaws (!) in Ubuntu. To repeat, I'm just questioning [I]your way of trying to alleviate a legitimate concern of yours (and of others) with Ubuntu, and trying to lead you to more realistic means of doing it, to the extent that you're inclined to pay attention.

[maynoth]

Yeah... they really don't care too much about anything which makes the transition from windows to linux easier.. The guys over at linux mint have the right idea, maybe I will drop them a line with this idea.

[fppl]

I kind of think that Ubuntu should never by default support the idea of using Windows. That loses the whole point of using LInux... If the people who want to use Windows but mostly use Linux wanna do something about it, they'd either dual boot (which is annoying) or install a VM, which is failrly easy (the installation of VM Workstation is just Enter, Enter, Enter. All set)

But it shouldn't encourage it. Linux is its own world... Just like Microsoft won't give you access to run Linux nice and easy by default, so wouldn't Ubuntu. It's not smart.

[maynoth]

well unfortunately wine isn't mature enough to play "most windows games"
I am sorry but I haven't found any fun linux multiplayers which are fun and have people playing them. It is a pain in the **** just to reboot to play a game. until wine matures more, were stuck with dual booting, and honestly I would rather just have ubuntu and a virtual machine for windows.

when using a vm you don't have to reboot to use quicken or that odd webcam that wont work in linux or yahoo or a game etc...

it just makes sense.... and lots of it...

[sicofante]

Flak: don't even dare to show ideas to the idea pool. Unless your ideas have been thought beforehand by any of the "masters of the universe" you'll be flamed out (yes, I've read the thread and you've been clearly flamed out) or worst, someone will say sooner or later: "if you like your idea so much, do it yourself. Now get away with your "unrealistic" proposals, you..."

Arrogance might sink this boat one day. :-(

I fully support your idea. It makes life easier for the users and it's obvious it won't be implemented for political reasons. If I spend some time trying to develop an EasyVM tool, I'll let you know.

[Frak]

Flak: don't even dare to show ideas to the idea pool. Unless your ideas have been thought beforehand by any of the "masters of the universe" you'll be flamed out (yes, I've read the thread and you've been clearly flamed out) or worst, someone will say sooner or later: "if you like your idea so much, do it yourself. Now get away with your "unrealistic" proposals, you..."

Arrogance might sink this boat one day. :-(

I fully support your idea. It makes life easier for the users and it's obvious it won't be implemented for political reasons. If I spend some time trying to develop an EasyVM tool, I'll let you know.
OK thanks, if progress is made, I'll be happy to hlep.

[Nekiruhs]

well unfortunately wine isn't mature enough to play "most windows games"
I am sorry but I haven't found any fun linux multiplayers which are fun and have people playing them. It is a pain in the **** just to reboot to play a game. until wine matures more, were stuck with dual booting, and honestly I would rather just have ubuntu and a virtual machine for windows.

when using a vm you don't have to reboot to use quicken or that odd webcam that wont work in linux or yahoo or a game etc...

it just makes sense.... and lots of it...
Wolfenstien: Enemy Territory
True Combat: Elite
Tremulous
OpenArena
Nexuiz

All have plenty of people playing them all the time. In fact, there has never been a day in the history of Tremulous where no one was playing.

[RAOF]

...
when using a vm you don't have to reboot to use quicken or that odd webcam that wont work in linux or yahoo or a game etc...
...
With the obvious caveats that:

Virtual machines are still slower than native, and this is unlikely to change much.
No (current) virtual machine offers 3D support (yet), so games won't run well. I am aware that several VMs are working on experimental 3d support, though.
The virtual machine's hardware support is largely dependent upon the host OS's hardware support

That's not to say that it wouldn't be cool to have an easy to use VM manager, but I think people may have an over-optimistic view of what the VMs can actually do.

Now, no one is going to do anything to prevent a VM manager from entering the repositories. In fact, I suspect that many people would be willing to actively assist in getting one packaged correctly and in the archives (for Gutsy+1, at this point). On the other hand, it is unreasonable to expect volunteers (and the vast majority of people who work on Ubuntu are volunteers) to implement something you want - no matter how good an idea it may be - if they don't particularly feel like it. Thus, one of the important things to do in an idea thread like this is to try to make people feel like doing the work you want done. Whining about how no one does anything for political reasons, or suggesting the people you're asking to volunteer their time to implement the feature you want are arrogant is actively counter productive :).

If you want something to be done by volunteers, you need to inspire them. Either by
1) "This feature is totally critical", and then showing that it's now easy to implement, or
2) "This feature would be cool, wouldn't it", and then outlining how cool it could be, and (preferably) how it could be easily done.

There are, at this point, very few features that I'd think would fall under (1), and they're likely to be picked up by the few people paid to work on Ubuntu. A virtual machine manager is cool, but in no way critical. People should really be focusing on (2). Your goal is to make a developer say "Ooooh, yeah, that would be awesome. I hadn't thought of that!". Note that a developer need not be officially associated with Ubuntu in any way - it seems that sicofante may be interested in developing this idea. Good for them!

[Frak]

Well, now I'm happy. All I wanted was a developers point of view.

[sicofante]

A virtual machine manager is cool, but in no way critical.
I'd like to disagree. It's not critical for the system to work fine. It is critical to lure Windows and even Mac users to try Ubuntu and stay.

The thread that was referred here was exposed clearly and politely. Maybe the guy didn't sell the idea, but that doesn't justify the arrogant attitude usually seen in the idea pool (which is the reason I never hang around there anymore).

[Runamok]

Does Apple encourage vitualization of their OS? Does Microsoft? Should Ubuntu?

[Frak]

Does Apple encourage vitualization of their OS? Does Microsoft? Should Ubuntu?
Sure.

Be aware, we aren't MS or Apple.

[fnf]

Sure.

Be aware, we aren't MS or Apple.

A lot of people voting for a VM Manager in this thread seems to be implying it will be mostly used for playing Windows games. At this time, though, 3D supports in all popular VMMs is next to none, so that point is moot. This idea should be delayed until 3D graphics cards that natively support virtualization come out, at the very least.

Do you really think most people coming to Ubuntu understand what a 'Virtual Machine' is? how to install and setup Windows in a VM - one thing they've never done in bare metal machines?. Even if this is done by someone else for them, this would make Linux comes second to Windows as a cheap Windows version. Let people learn how to use The GIMP and OpenOffice, not their equivalent proprietary versions.

Professional softwares require decent PC configurations (read: real hardware, VMM cannot emulate everything) and people work on them most of the time anyway, so dual-booting is a bearable inconvenience, if for some reason they have to.

[sicofante]

Do you really think most people coming to Ubuntu understand what a 'Virtual Machine' is?
That's exactly why an Easy VM is needed.

[fnf]

That's exactly why an Easy VM is needed.

Yup, and how would you go about teaching people to install Windows?.

Windows installation can be scripted, but the software used is proprietary (although the format is in plain text), not to mention it's not possible with some versions. Bypassing the text-based installation script of VMware, I see little improvement on user interface can be made to VMware and VirtualBox while retaining flexibility. In the end, people will go complaining the defaults unsuitable to their needs.

KVM, Xen and qemu - at their current state - are out of consideration, of course.

But a more important point that you've yet to address is: why would the average user want to use Windows in a VM at the first place?. The reason that that is not a feasible idea has been partly answered in my first post.

[23meg]

why would the average user want to use Windows in a VM at the first place?.

Either to run software that doesn't have its equivalents in Ubuntu that do the job, or to run software that they're used to in the transition to Ubuntu that doesn't work with WINE.

[machoo02]

Yeah, I tried suggesting that in the Gutsy Idea pool and got flamed out, because there are alot of "Micro$oft Window$ Hatter$" in these forums.

I resent that remark...I do not make/sell, nor do I own, any Microsoft Windows hats :wink:

And most flamewars don't contain any well wishes (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=3064070#post3064070).

Sure.

Be aware, we aren't MS or Apple.
Actually,The OS X EULA forbids the use of OS X on anything but Apple-approved hardware...including virtualization. And don't forget that with Vista, you are only allowed to virtualize Business and Ultimate and not the home versions that are the ones most likely to be owned by potential Ubuntu converts.

I'd like to disagree. It's not critical for the system to work fine. It is critical to lure Windows and even Mac users to try Ubuntu and stay.
I'd like to disagree as well. If you are going to try to lure new users in, what would be the best solution: a) to market Ubuntu as a better operating system overall in technical merit, ease of use, configurability, diversity of software, PRICE, philosphy, etc. compared to Windows or OS X, or b) by saying, "umm...well we're kinda better. But look! We make it easy to install Windows! Aren't you glad you switched?!?! What was that? Yeah, Windows is supposed to run a little slower here. Huh? Oh, right...you can't actually play *insert latest 3D intense FPS here* in Ubuntu/Windows because it can't use that new Nvidia card you spent $200 on. Hey...where you going?"

Personally, I would take (A) any day of the week. It's the only real way that bug #1 (https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/1) will ever get fixed.

[Frak]

I resent that remark...I do not make/sell, nor do I own, any Microsoft Windows hats :wink:

You haven't said anything about socks or bracelets ;)

[durand]

Wolfenstien: Enemy Territory
True Combat: Elite
Tremulous
OpenArena
Nexuiz


Savage
Alien Arena

Whatever the case, you have to try tremulous. It's one of the best free games ever in my opinion...

[sicofante]

If you are going to try to lure new users in, what would be the best solution: a) to market Ubuntu as a better operating system overall in technical merit, ease of use, configurability, diversity of software, PRICE, philosphy, etc. compared to Windows or OS X, or b) by saying, "umm...well we're kinda better. But look! We make it easy to install Windows! Aren't you glad you switched?!?! What was that? Yeah, Windows is supposed to run a little slower here. Huh? Oh, right...you can't actually play *insert latest 3D intense FPS here* in Ubuntu/Windows because it can't use that new Nvidia card you spent $200 on. Hey...where you going?"

Personally, I would take (A) any day of the week. It's the only real way that bug #1 (https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/1) will ever get fixed.
According to this survey (http://www.desktoplinux.com/cgi-bin/survey/survey.cgi?view=archive&id=0813200712407) by DesktopLinux, some 70% of Linux users run some Windows programs on their desktop.

I also would take A any day of the week, but let's be realistic.

[aldaer]

and what about running MacOS X software on Ubuntu????
I´d love to have my machine with ubuntu and be able to run both windows and macos software....

[Frak]

and what about running MacOS X software on Ubuntu????
I´d love to have my machine with ubuntu and be able to run both windows and macos software....
You can, but its slightly illegal...

[tnilsson]

I thinking about installing a virtual machine on my Ubuntu Fiesty Fawn machine.
So my question is... which virtual machine can run OpenSolaris?

[Frak]

VMWare, QEMU, Virtualbox, and Parallels have done just fine for me.