Grand theft auto sex scandal represents ignorance?

[NoTiG]

I think the recent huff about Grand theft auto shows what a lack of understanding there is....

A media watchdog group on Friday denounced the maker of the hugely popular video game "Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas" over graphic sexual content that allegedly exists in the game and can be unlocked with an Internet download.

To the user... the fact that content exists on the cd, but in an inaccesible place is about the same as if it didn't exist it all. People act like it actually means something because there is "hidden content" that can be unlocked... but if the user is so inclined to actually download a patch to unlock sexual content, they might as well be downloading porn itself. The fact is... content whatever it may be, is just bits of 0's and 1's. If it is not accesible except by a patch then its as if it doesnt exist at all. It might as well be the patch itself that is the content.

Let me try putting it another way in case anyone doesnt understand: say i have some data... like a jpg picture of an elephant. I could make an algorithm(patch) that simply rearranged the 0's and 1's of the jpg picture itself, so then it "became" a porn picture. Does that mean that the elephant picture is pornographic? It's not the game that should be targetted, its the patch.

Correct me if im wrong... i havent actually played the game but that is my understanding.

[Brunellus]

I think the recent huff about Grand theft auto shows what a lack of understanding there is....



To the user... the fact that content exists on the cd, but in an inaccesible place is about the same as if it didn't exist it all. People act like it actually means something because there is "hidden content" that can be unlocked... but if the user is so inclined to actually download a patch to unlock sexual content, they might as well be downloading porn itself. The fact is... content whatever it may be, is just bits of 0's and 1's. If it is not accesible except by a patch then its as if it doesnt exist at all. It might as well be the patch itself that is the content.

Let me try putting it another way in case anyone doesnt understand: say i have some data... like a jpg picture of an elephant. I could make an algorithm(patch) that simply rearranged the 0's and 1's of the jpg picture itself, so then it "became" a porn picture. Does that mean that the elephant picture is pornographic? It's not the game that should be targetted, its the patch.

Correct me if im wrong... i havent actually played the game but that is my understanding.
the GTA flap is generational. The generation presently in power can't understand that their kids are still playing videogames--but since their kids are now grown-up, they have begun to demand games for grown-ups.

[BWF89]

I think Maddox said it best:
http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=ticket_to_hell

[NoTiG]

I think Maddox said it best:
http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=ticket_to_hell

haha ! i love the sarcasm :P that was sexy.........

[bored2k]

To the user... the fact that content exists on the cd, but in an inaccesible place is about the same as if it didn't exist it all. People act like it actually means something because there is "hidden content" that can be unlocked... but if the user is so inclined to actually download a patch to unlock sexual content, they might as well be downloading porn itself.
I do not agree. The truth's already out there, the patch exists. Kids go CRAZY about things that get prohibited to them. I thought it was the correct thing to as it is _really_ pornographic. And by the way, they do NOT necessarily need to download a patch to unlock the content. If you're following Gamespot's articles and editorials, you would know that they managed to unlocked the content on the console version WITHOUT any patch, just by playing the game _already_ knowing what to do. It's just wrong and kids should not be allowed hold of this content. It's also wrong because they tricked several stores that think of themselves as respectful and "half clean" to include porn in their outlets.

You can't overshadow the fact that there is pornographic content on the disc just because everyone's driving crazy about it. Creators obviously WANTED controversy, well they got it. If the content is harmless, why did Rockstar lie about it saying you needed to DOWNLOAD the game ? Well they ignored the fact that the ESRB would check the game for themselves. How can you tell a kid "oh , don't touch that content".

[poofyhairguy]

You can't overshadow the fact that there is pornographic content on the disc just because everyone's driving crazy about it.

The main game is about killing tons of people, dealing drugs, creating gangs, fighting cops, stealing cars and you are worried about a little unrealistic porn scene?

[NoTiG]

I dont think any of that is bad... people desire conflict.. every story, every game,every movie is based on some kind of conflict known as drama. Thats something games give us... drama...

If there was a heaven, the people inside would need to invent a hell to stay entertained.. . As long as it was fake , then its harmless :P

[bored2k]

The main game is about killing tons of people, dealing drugs, creating gangs, fighting cops, stealing cars and you are worried about a little unrealistic porn scene?
Yes that is true, but this type of content has already been allowed in stores for years. If you allow this one to slip, the next you unlock in Mario for the N-Revolution will have flying 1UP's all over (http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/7682/110638538l6dp.gif) . And yeah, it looks incredibly cheesy, but imagine the same scene on a XBX-360.

[NoTiG]

Lol wtf! Well... speaking of the future. Who is gonna care about the PS3 version of 1up when you have robotic women with silicon skin that can blink (http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41348000/jpg/_41348135_rep_getty_203.jpg)

[bored2k]

Lol wtf! Well... speaking of the future. Who is gonna care about the PS3 version of 1up when you have robotic women with silicon skin that can blink (http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41348000/jpg/_41348135_rep_getty_203.jpg)
That is so scary..

[Kvark]

I think the recent huff about Grand theft auto shows what a lack of understanding there is....



To the user... the fact that content exists on the cd, but in an inaccesible place is about the same as if it didn't exist it all. People act like it actually means something because there is "hidden content" that can be unlocked... but if the user is so inclined to actually download a patch to unlock sexual content, they might as well be downloading porn itself. The fact is... content whatever it may be, is just bits of 0's and 1's. If it is not accesible except by a patch then its as if it doesnt exist at all. It might as well be the patch itself that is the content.

Let me try putting it another way in case anyone doesnt understand: say i have some data... like a jpg picture of an elephant. I could make an algorithm(patch) that simply rearranged the 0's and 1's of the jpg picture itself, so then it "became" a porn picture. Does that mean that the elephant picture is pornographic? It's not the game that should be targetted, its the patch.

Correct me if im wrong... i havent actually played the game but that is my understanding.

Let's translate what you are saying to a situation where a linux user gets a CD with mp3 music but does not have an mp3 codec installed to play it. I marked everything that I had to change to make it apply to this situation...

To the user... the fact that music exists on the cd, but in an inaccesible place is about the same as if it didn't exist it all. People act like it actually means something because there is "hidden music" that can be unlocked... but if the user is so inclined to actually download a codec to unlock music content, they might as well be downloading music itself. The fact is... content whatever it may be, is just bits of 0's and 1's. If it is not accesible except by a codec then its as if it doesnt exist at all. It might as well be the codec itself that is the music.

What you say could be applied not only to codecs actually being the music but also to MS word actually being the word documents, a VHS video actually being the video tapes and any other situation where you need tool A to read data X.

In all these cases the tool to read the data is NOT the data itself. The data still exists regardless of if you have the tools to read it or not.

[NoTiG]

You are trying to twist my words into saying that the patch is the content itself which wasn't my point. It was that to the user, having the content inaccesible is the same as having it not there at all... and to make it there by downloading something additional they could just as easily have downloaded an equivalent . Since you dont seem to understand I will elaborate:

IF in grand theft auto, there is inaccesible content.. that can be unlocked by downloading the patch, then how do you get that content? You simply download the patch knowingly.

If there is no content, but there was a patch that had the content then how do you add it to the game? You download the patch knowingly.

To the user those are identical situations in that they choose to have the content through a third party, outside of the company who wrote the game itself.

[Kvark]

You are trying to twist my words into saying that the patch is the content itself which wasn't my point. It was that to the user, having the content inaccesible is the same as having it not there at all... and to make it there by downloading something additional they could just as easily have downloaded an equivalent . Since you dont seem to understand I will elaborate:

IF in grand theft auto, there is inaccesible content.. that can be unlocked by downloading the patch, then how do you get that content? You simply download the patch knowingly.

If there is no content, but there was a patch that had the content then how do you add it to the game? You download the patch knowingly.

To the user those are identical situations in that they choose to have the content through a third party, outside of the company who wrote the game itself.
Ok, I missunderstood you. I thought you said that data pysically exists only when the user can read it. I agree now when I understand that you meant that it would be just as easy to download the data as it is to download the patch.

[az]

I wish that everyone who got entertainment from theft, violence and mysogeny would just stay on an island somewhere and keep away from my family and me.

Like a Darwin thing where they would just all kill themselves off...

[egon spengler]

I read a story yesterday about how supposedly some woman intends to sue Rockstar games because she bought this game for her 13 year old grandson and she subsequently discovered there was pornographic content. Does the fact that she bought a game with an 18 rating (here in the UK at least) for a young child not undermine her position somewhat?

[bored2k]

I read a story yesterday about how supposedly some woman intends to sue Rockstar games because she bought this game for her 13 year old grandson and she subsequently discovered there was pornographic content. Does the fact that she bought a game with an 18 rating (here in the UK at least) for a young child not undermine her position somewhat?
Exactly. She will simply get jack. The game was R-rated. If anything, going public would just make her shameful as everyone would question her on why she bought such game for her 13 year old GRANDSON. Hilarious I'd say.

[NoTiG]

I wish that everyone who got entertainment from theft, violence and mysogeny would just stay on an island somewhere and keep away from my family and me.

Like a Darwin thing where they would just all kill themselves off...


Every classical book ever written has some or more of those elements and others you may deem unfit to even exist. Without conflict, this world would be a boring place. Imagine if nobody ever lost. Nobody could really win. There is a quote from the movie troy that relates to this (from the illiad) . The god's envy us. They envy us because we are mortal, because any moment maybe our last. Everything is more beautiful because we are doomed.

[Stormy Eyes]

I wish that everyone who got entertainment from theft, violence and mysogeny would just stay on an island somewhere and keep away from my family and me.

One of my favorite novels is The Three Musketeers, and it's got plenty of swashbuckling violence in it. Should I move to this island too, since I get "entertainment from violence"?

[Kvark]

I wish that everyone who got entertainment from theft, violence and mysogeny would just stay on an island somewhere and keep away from my family and me.

Like a Darwin thing where they would just all kill themselves off...
Sounds like something that could make a popular reality TV show not too far into the future. Last man standing after a series of lethaly stupid competitions wins 50 grands.

[Mr. Electric Wizard]

The main game is about killing tons of people, dealing drugs, creating gangs, fighting cops, stealing cars and you are worried about a little unrealistic porn scene?

That's what I'm saying...
Unbelievable!
Grandma trying to make some lawsuit money. Maybe her SS is running out...

[az]

In what great novel has there been a depiction of a prostitute begging "kill me" only to be killed by the hero? And that without the presence of any other kind of female character?

And no, I do not object to any of the novels mentioned. I have a lot more esteem for people who can sit down and read a book which contains violence than people who are entertained by first-person shooter games.

One medium exercises your imagination. The other distorts your perception of reality. One strengthens the brain while the other one causes decay.

[skoal]

The point is: if I go to buy a car and the salesman doesn't tell me of a hidden oil leak, odometer rollback, manufacturer recall, or whatever, he's broken the law. Period. In Texas we have "lemon laws" which protect us consumers against such fraud.

The same could be said for the makers of this game. Video games and movies fall under guidelines (albeit somewhat subjective) which are rated solely on all the material presented. Any attempt to add material not able to be reviewed (or disclosed by the manufacturer), but still part of the product, is no different than a crafty salesman, selling you a car with known leaks from the oil pan, telling you this "objectionable" trait is just the only "problem", and you finding out later that it also has a leaky rear main seal. How would you feel then as a consumer? Or a parent? And was the intent of the salesman's non-disclosure to bring you back for more repairs? Similiarly, was the design of this game a willful attempt to garnish more publicity, thus more eventual revenue. As a consumer, you make informed decisions based on guidelines (or information) you can trust, hopefully. When that trust is broken, it's called fraud.

Back in my day, PG is today's R. Adultery would get you fired, and now you can become President. Hollyweird is continually "pushing the envelope", seeing what they can get away with. When does it end? I can safely make that easy distinction between violence and porn. Don't lump them together to fluff up your "strawman". If I had a copy of this game, I'd toss it in the fireplace and poke at it with my shaking stick...

\\//_

[aysiu]

The point is: if I go to buy a car and the salesman doesn't tell me of a hidden oil leak, odometer rollback, manufacturer recall, or whatever, he's broken the law. Period. In Texas we have "lemon laws" which protect us consumers against such fraud.

The same could be said for the makers of this game. You make a good point of comparison, but the analogy doesn't hold up fully. If the sleazy car salesman doesn't tell you about the hidden oil leak, the oil will still leak and affect your car, whether you know about it or not. If someone does not know about the secret mods for Grand Theft Auto, her experience of the game will not be adversely affected. It's quite the opposite. It's more like the car salesman putting in a hard-to-pull lever that will create an oil leak. Unless you go out of your way to research about the hard-to-pull lever and actually pull it, you don't know any better, and the car runs fine.

Same for Grand Theft Auto. As long as you don't download the mod, how do you know about these hidden sex scenes? The hidden oil leak has a negative impact on the life and performance of your car. The hidden sex scenes have no impact on the life and performance of your video game.

[senorcheaposgato]

I'm just going to say flat-out that I'm against censorship, and I imagine many of you (some, at least) agree with me.

Let me explain. I'm not saying that sex, violence, and drugs are essential to good media--although in some cases they can be used with good effect. Censorship, however, is a complete ban on parts of human existence. I see it as a denial (in many ways) of certain facts of life.

In my experience, censorship is always "for the children." Well, where the hell are the children's parents/caregivers? If people were willing to take responsibility for what their children are exposed to, censorship wouldn't be necessary. However, it's too much trouble for many parents--but not all!--to think about what they buy for their children. I do not see it as the responsibility of society at large to protect children from adult themes: that is the responsibility of the parent/caregiver. This is, in fact, why games and movies have ratings, and why cds have warning labels.

(note: why is it unacceptable for a 13-year old boy to play games involving sex, but mothers have no problem letting their 13-year old daughters read pulp romance? Believe me, I worked in a bookstore that dealt in used books for years, and that stuff is porn. Plan and simple. I'm not saying we should ban books either, but it is a paralell.)

I think that all in all, the public is unaware to a large degree about the content of video games in general. The first generation of childhood gamers are becoming parents--pong, etc. is a far cry from GTA-SA. It's also important to take into account the parents who have never played video games and simply don't understand the nature of the industry.

Look, every game has easter eggs, although to the best of my knowledge, not all of them involve porn. :) The media frenzy that has sprung up around this is making the situation far worse--how many people knew about the content 4 months ago as compared to now? Thanks to knee-jerk reactions far more gamers will see it.

Look, video games are rated for a reason, just like films. There is probably a R-rated movie playing in almost every movie theater in the US right now, and no one is pitching a fit. There are "adult novelty" stores (so-called in the southern states, at least) all over the place, many with theaters/private viewing booths. So with all of the sex, violence, and drug use available for easy viewing (at much higher quality, no less) why are people freaking out?

Simple. They think of games as being for children. Right. Just like movies are for children. The gaming industry in the US is starting to develop games suited for a mature audience, and they are rated as such! Most stores won't sell R-rated games, movies, etc to minors, so parents buy them for their kids. They should look at the box before they buy it; they should do research on it first!

It is not Rockstar's job to protect children from adult content in an adult-oriented game with an adult-only rating. Period.

That's why kids have someone to look after them, right? Apparently not.

[phen]

si senor!

i dont understand this discussion either...

and please stop the first person shooter bashing. i read alot about all the accusations, but it was never proven that fps games make children agressive or violent. my personal experiences are negative, too.

cheers,

kai

[MetalMusicAddict]

Ya know. Wheres the parental responsibility? Im 30 and have 2 kids. 1 and 3. Ive completely grown up playing video games. I know things will get WAY worse in games. My kids will not play those games till their older.

Theres a huge problem with the 40 and above crowd not understanding the technology. Also letting it babysit their kids until they realize that game they bought their 14yo was for 17 and above. Then blaming it on game makers instead of themselves because they didnt look at the clearly marked rating on the box.

It is up to media makers (music, movies, games and tv) to accurately represent what is in the program but we as parents need to be more involved in out kids lives and stop letting the PC or TV raise our kids. ALL kids will sneak to do things we dont want them to do. Thats life but when your with them PAY ATTENTION!!!

Im so pissed about things Ive seen in the news about this Im going to write, call, stalk whoever I can to make sure stupid laws dont happen because of this. Im gonna look into who is on the congressional committee and send emails. If anyone want the info let me know. If the hearings are open Im going. I live near D.C..

So pissed.

I just read you whole post senorcheaposgato. You hit it on the head. Im just so pissed about this. Ignorant People!!

[az]

Everything is upside-down.

Media aimed at young kids should be oozing sex, with violence being the taboo subject. I would think it is much more healthy to be desensitized to nudity rather than pain and violence. And then we wouldn't even have to speak of mysogeny.

[panickedthumb]

Everything is upside-down.

Media aimed at young kids should be oozing sex, with violence being the taboo subject. I would think it is much more healthy to be desensitized to nudity rather than pain and violence. And then we wouldn't even have to speak of mysogeny.
word. ***** and schlongs are natural, Killing people is not.

If the world wasn't so desensitized to violence, perhaps the empty wars the nations of our world are in right now wouldn't be happening.

[WildTangent]

Everything is upside-down.

Media aimed at young kids should be oozing sex, with violence being the taboo subject. I would think it is much more healthy to be desensitized to nudity rather than pain and violence. And then we wouldn't even have to speak of mysogeny.
azz, you make a lot of sense almost every time you speak, but thats the most sensical thing ive ever heard from you.

-Wild

[poofyhairguy]

Everything is upside-down.

Media aimed at young kids should be oozing sex, with violence being the taboo subject. I would think it is much more healthy to be desensitized to nudity rather than pain and violence. And then we wouldn't even have to speak of mysogeny.

I think that it shows deep problems with U.S. (just U.S.) culture.

My nation began, was forged in violence so in many ways war is glory. Sad but true.

[skoal]

[...] If someone does not know about the secret mods for Grand Theft Auto, her experience of the game will not be adversely affected. It's quite the opposite. It's more like the car salesman putting in a hard-to-pull lever that will create an oil leak. Unless you go out of your way to research about the hard-to-pull lever and actually pull it, you don't know any better, and the car runs fine.

Exactly! And the young naive teenager, curious about all these doodads in the car and how they operate, pulls that lever. How many teenagers who own GTA do you think _not_ know about this now? How many more are looking for that "hidden car lever"? How many parents wish that car salesman or the makers of GTA would have disclosed those facts. It's a matter of intent, not accident. My choice of analogies was deliberate as well. A slow rare drip from an oil filter is "tolerable", and I understand that when I purchased the car. If you've ever had to change a leaky rear main seal, you would feel quite different about whether or not "the car runs fine", or even if it's "tolerable".

I've been a software/hardware developer for some 25 years in the Industry, from Defense to Insurance to you name it. You either comment out that "hidden" feature, strip it completely, mark it as beta, or bend over later as a several managers from Quality Assurance take their turns on you. Once again, intent, not accident - full disclosure, not circumvention. Here, it's a matter of law and business and regulations, not of personal opinion or ethics or justification.

\\//_

[aysiu]

Oh, I'm not saying the makers of GTA shouldn't have known better. In fact, what they should have done was release a regular Mature GTA, then also release a limited edition NC-17 GTA.

Regardless, there's a big difference between something hidden that will have an effect on the product whether or not you know about it and something hidden that has no effect on the product unless you consciously activate it.

[weasel fierce]

Leave parenting to parents

[binary-boy]

Absolutely... I have two boys of my own who have both played GTA-SA and they both love it. But as a techno-geek and anti-censorship chap myself I fully understood what I was doing.

Although I can understand there is an argument for censorship when it comes to children, why should a closed board of people I've never met decide what I can and cannot watch at the age of 29? It is most definitely the job of the parent to initiate censorship when they think it it appropriate since a lot of it depends on the individual child.

I have always made every effort with my kids to make sure that they are fully aware of the differences between computer games and reality although to be honest I don't think we give our kids enough credit for understanding and adapting as well as they do.

And certainly letting them play the game has made them ask a few questions and to a minor point influenced their playtime (yes my children actually play away from a screen as well!) but I would rather have to explain something to them which I may find a bit awkward than miss out something they will end up finding out about from elsewhere from their education.

[ubuntu_demon]

IMO violence and sex are both not suited for young childred. What children should be able to watch should be in the hands of the parents (as each child is different and each culture is different)

[macgyver2]

And no, I do not object to any of the novels mentioned. I have a lot more esteem for people who can sit down and read a book which contains violence than people who are entertained by first-person shooter games.

One medium exercises your imagination. The other distorts your perception of reality. One strengthens the brain while the other one causes decay.

FPS's help strengthen eye-hand coordination and (somewhat) reflexes. Further, the FPS I used to play regularly--multiplayer Return to Castle Wolfenstein--required tactical thought and teamwork. It's not so simple as "one strengthens the brain while the other one causes decay."

[az]

FPS's help strengthen eye-hand coordination and (somewhat) reflexes. Further, the FPS I used to play regularly--multiplayer Return to Castle Wolfenstein--required tactical thought and teamwork. It's not so simple as "one strengthens the brain while the other one causes decay."


I still wouldn't suggest you put that on your resume or bring it up at your next job interview.

[macgyver2]

I still wouldn't suggest you put that on your resume or bring it up at your next job interview.

Of course not. Then again, I don't have any of the novels I've recently read on my resume either.

I guess the point I was trying to make was that I don't believe FPS's--like most things--are inherently bad (or inherently good). It comes down to how you use them and hence down to the individual person/situation.

[Spoofhound]

word. ***** and schlongs are natural, Killing people is not.

If the world wasn't so desensitized to violence, perhaps the empty wars the nations of our world are in right now wouldn't be happening.

On the otherhand perhaps having a "safe" place to work off aggression and violent feelings will make our world a safer place. The statement "before we had video games we had a lot more wars" is very simplistic, but there's a grain of sense here.

This is part of the reason that something like "White Collar Boxing" (aka The Real Fight Club) is growing in popularity.

Who knows perhaps the kids who are growing up with the games like GTA will eventually be the ones to bring about real peace in the world. Maybe they won't feel the need to be aggressive in real life because it won't have the same kick as doing it online. In anycase, in terms of war and peace they're unlikely to do worse than the generations before them

[macgyver2]

If the world wasn't so desensitized to violence, perhaps the empty wars the nations of our world are in right now wouldn't be happening.

You also have to consider that so many of the wars the nations of our world are involved in right were not necessarily entered into upon the decision of the majority (or--and I'm NOT pointing at any specific wars here--the majority did support the war based on a bad/a lack of information). Many wars are started by the few men in power warring against other few men in power. Those few may be desensitized to violence (especially since they don't need to experience it first hand) but the majority may not be. The problem of the majority is instead a sense of helplessness in preventing the few in power from starting these wars.

[panickedthumb]

@ both the last posters, spoof, macguyver, you're both right. I was making a broad statement, but there's obviously grey area that you guys covered quite well I think.

[Stormy Eyes]

Graphic sexual content my ***. I've seen jpegs of this "Hot Coffee" mod. The puppet sex in Team America: World Police was more explicit, the bath scene near the end of Prince of Persia: the Sands of Time was sexier, and I think that every idiot who got uptight over "Hot Coffee" should go take a cold shower. What in Angra Mainyu's name are these idiots getting worked up about, anyway? The game is all about being a criminal, and these meddlesome pusbags are worried about simulated sex between a couple of really ugly characters? My wife can't believe we tolerate this idiocy in America.

[skoal]

Regardless, there's a big difference between something hidden that will have an effect on the product whether or not you know about it and something hidden that has no effect on the product unless you consciously activate it.

That's a subtle but very important point, and it definitely applies as a matter of law. However, the FTC is currently investigating the intent behind this hidden feature, and more than likely will _not_ consider this very point. Fortunately for us consumers, the FTC does not care about that distinction. Why? Once again, whether it's an undisclosed (hidden to the naked eye) rear main seal leak, or an undisclosed dash switch requiring a conscious pulling of it, all us informed consumers care about is getting what was disclosed, nothing more and nothing less. The next time you're at the grocery store, read the ingredients on the back of a cereal box or a bag of trail mix. If there's so much as any trace (hidden) amounts of peanuts in said product, even though it's not listed as an ingredient, the manufacturer must disclose that fact. Why? For the protection of the consumer - some people are allergic to peanuts but not those ingredients such as wheat, maltodextrin, or whatever. As a developer who's worked within specific federal guidelines, as a matter of law, I see no difference between trace amounts of peanuts and trace amounts of code left in by the manufacturer. It's a matter of _exposure_ by the manufacturer - some by accident, some by default, and others by intent.

As you may know, sometimes it's far easier to leave certain features innacessable in software instead of completely stripping the code entirely, as it may affect|break other features which are part of the production release. Rockstar and Take Two originally claimed that very code was _not_ part of their final product, and hackers created the mod. However, many users showed otherwise. Those companies later admitted it was indeed part of their final release. Furthermore, my understanding of that "patch" is a single hex edit. In lieu of those facts, I question their intent, in light of their original claim, especially as it applies to the direct correlation between market share and ratings.

* The U.S. Federal Trade Commission "enforces federal consumer protection laws that prevent fraud, deception and unfair business practices."

Once again, argue if you must about censorship, morality, or even fanciful notions of a ratings review panel which "enslave" us to follow their code of ethics, when most realize they're only a set of enforceable guidelines provided to the consumer, on his behalf and benefit and protection, and no different than a simple "Warning: this food product might contain trace (undetectable) amounts of peanuts from the manufacturer". That's the focus. I may never experience an allergic reaction to those untraceable (hidden) amounts of peanuts in Wheat Chex cereal, but what if I mix in a little "sugar", which makes me want to consume more Wheat Chex, which in turn causes me to consume small amounts of said peanuts in much larger quantity (or exposure), and I now have a reaction. GTA-SA did not list those "peanuts". Why?

The original poster of this thread inferred "ignorant". I prefer "informed" consumer. Where's the real "ignorance" here?

"Take-Two and Rockstar Games have always worked to keep mature-themed video game content out of the hands of children and we will continue to work closely with the ESRB and community leaders to improve and better promote a _reliable rating system_ to help consumers make informed choices about which video games are appropriate for each individual," said Paul Eibeler, Take-Two's President and Chief Executive Officer.

Thanks. That's all we ask. Spare the lectures on morality or even parenting as it applies to this case. My concern is disclosure, and Intent. That's how informed (not ignorant) consumers make their purchases...

\\//_