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View Full Version : Another Ubuntu Verus Windows thread



ashdezign
August 6th, 2007, 06:48 PM
OK, it's late (past 1 AM) the following will most likely prove the axiom that it is never a good idea to post when you are half asleep, but I am to tired to proof read.

Apologies if it rambles and jumps around a bit. More apologies as this will probably turn into a rant. But I am tired of all the people complaining/comparing linux to windows and saying windows is easier to use or install.

I am a windows user for over a decade and an Ubuntu user for just about 5-6 months full time. I also provide tech support to several small business and a few larger ones all of them full of "average users". So I think I know enough to talk about what the AVERAGE person needs/wants from a computer.

First lets get one thing straight:

The average Joe will almost NEVER try to install ANY OS for themselves. They want it to come prepackaged, preinstalled and set up with all the applications they need.

For me, when I am putting a box together for someone I generally show them ubuntu versus the windows they already have - 90% of the time they are fed up with windows already but don't realize there is anything better. When I explain that a linux installation means almost no chance of viruses and that with a proper set up they can do everything they need to do + its free their eyes light up.

What does the average person need to do? Listen to music, watch movies, surf the web, check emails, look at photos, download files P2P, read, create office documents, IM, Voip.

Amarok, VLC, Firefox, Thunderbird (with lightning extension)/Evolution, Picassa (not standard but easy enough to preinstall for them), Bittorent, Open Office, Pidgin (you mean I dont have to have 3 IM clients open at the same time?!), Twinkle ( I prefer it to Ekiga), Skype (for those who cant live without).

For your AVERAGE home or office user that's about all they need. Granted vanilla ubuntu may not have it all preinstalled with those specific apps, but if your talking about preinstalling you can (and I do) set it up for them easily enough with codecs and all.

Most people don't want a computer that requires them to 'get under the hood' in order to get things done, for them a computer is a tool and nothing more.

As such the average user simply expects to buy their computer, take it home, plug it in and start using it right away. Notice: no mention of installation there!

This is where Windows has excelled in the past: not because of ease of installation, but because of PRE-INSTALLATION.

Have you ever watched an average person trying to install/re-install windows?

Trying to reinstall windows on an average PC involves one disk for your motherboard drivers as Windows will not always find them automatically, one for your video card, one for windows, one for microsoft office, printer/scanner drivers is another disk. Hours and hours of updates. Installing antivirus, firewalls, then if they want photo apps, file sharing, voip and so on going to each site and downloading each one separately. I used to carry an external hard drive with all the apps the average person could want and I would still spend hours on just one install!

The average person will not do this. Because of this the average person is most often using a computer that does not do all they want and is insecure to boot.

And most people don't complain. If their computer is messing up, or not doing what they expect they will go weeks, even months in silent misery before finally asking someone for help. I have seen it happen time and again. And these were the people I was paid to assist, but they never thought to ask for help because "it's just a nuisance, nothing major".

The simple fact is that there is no single OS that a grandma can install! This Grandma test is bunk. A properly installed and preconfigured ubuntu installation is many times easier and safer to use than a windows installation,

The proof? My 3 year old son uses ubuntu. (he turns it on, opens firefox, goes to his websites which we have saved on his homepage, closes firefox when he is done and turns the computer off... ok, so not very advanced, but come on he is only 3!) My secretary, after a 2 hour walk through and 2 days of working with it uses ubuntu. She had been using windows for the last 10 years. Now she cant imagine using anything else except ubuntu. Most of the learning was "unlearning" the windows way.

Have you ever looked at an average Windows users program list? They are constantly installing things, most of which is unneeded and quite a bit downright dangerous. They more often than not have no idea what they are doing. The fact is that things are to easy to install on windows. Now this might go against the idea of freedom, but sometimes people need to be protected from their stupidity. It is far to easy to download and install a registry edit program and use it to muck up windows. It is far to easy to download and install spyware/adware in windows. And far to hard to prevent("Oh but when I installed program a it said I had to install b,c, d, e,f, g.....")

Yes freedom is great, but with it comes responsibility. thats what makes linux so great. Its hard sometimes to install things. To do anything that could actually damage your system requires in most cases CLI and root which means the average user simply won't do it.

When I install ubuntu for an average person I make sure its preconfigured with everything they will need. Add a few pre-created folders to their bookmarks menu (documents, pictures, video, music). Add launchers to the panels for their major applications (browser, email, IM etc). I then edit the menus and REMOVE all extraneous entries as well synaptics and add/remove programs.

I figure when they figure out how to add them back to the menu they are ready to try use them.

For older users that have bigger screens I make the panels super large for them which has caused quite a few comments on how much easier it is to find things.

Its been 3 or 4 months since I did my first install for someone else, since the first one there have been dozens of others. They have not once felt they needed to install anything that wasn't already there. They have noted on several occasions how much easier and friendlier and faster their computer is. One person notoriously resistant to change has said, "finally my computer has gotten out of my way and let me get my work done".

I do the same thing for each person.

1) A pre ubuntu explanation and evaluation to make sure what apps they need, what printers they are using and so on.
2) A post install walk through for 2 hours on day one
3) A 2 hour refresher on day two
4) A 4 page "how to guide" that covers all the essentials they will need and gives a x=y for each windows application and its corresponding linux variant (Microsoft word = Open office and so on).

So what's the point of all this?

No OS is easy to install, but ubuntu is easier than most.

There are 2 ways of comparing windows to ubuntu: self install, and preinstall. The two are very different. Self installing ubuntu has its own challenges just as windows self install does but in most cases I have experienced has proven much easier. Preinstalled/preconfigured ubuntu mostly "just works" (from the end users perspective) and is getting better all the time.

Most users don't need access under the hood any more than most people need access to the engine of their car. (really how many people do you know who actually look under the hood of the car AND know what they are actually looking at?). More importantly, the average user doesn't want to look under the hood. They just want to turn on the tool and use it to get the job done.

When comparing windows to ubuntu for the average end user on a Pre Installation basis (the computer given to them ready to go. everything already installed and configured), especially for general office environments, ubuntu wins hands down. Windows just cannot compete. It leaves to many options available, makes it to easy to install extra and unneeded applications, far to easy to install dangerous ones and is to resource intensive.

For most people that I have read complaining about ubuntu when comparing it to windows the issue is not one of ease of use, but of familiarity.

The majority of comments of those who have tried ubuntu and given up, did so because they were really not yet ready to explore. They liked the idea of exploring, but like the young kid having adventures in their backyard they really just want to pretend the familiar is unfamiliar. And that's ok , heck that was me one year ago when I first looked at ubuntu (although I didnt post a "Ubuntu didnt work for me..." thread when I went back to windows. In fact the reason I went back to windows was my clients all used windows. I have since decided to phase out support for windows.) . And the way Ubuntu is maturing and gaining acceptance when they ARE ready for some real exploring Ubuntu will still be here waiting for them, easier than ever to use.

Only by the time that happens they will probably just go out and buy a preinstalled, preconfigured computer with ubuntu already on it.

That might upset a few long time "Linux is not mainstream" ubuntu users, but then they are plenty of linux distros for them to move to and that is a big part of what makes the land of opensourcia so great. Freedom. Of choice, of access, of control.

LaRoza
August 6th, 2007, 06:49 PM
Perhaps you should take a nap first...Did you type all that all at once in the text box?

Welcome to the Ubuntu community.

ashdezign
August 6th, 2007, 07:05 PM
Perhaps you should take a nap first...

ouch - was it that bad? I knew I should have saved it and posted in the morning after proof reading!


Welcome to the Ubuntu community.

Thanks You! That is one thing this community does very well - make newcomers feel welcome.

armandh
August 6th, 2007, 09:50 PM
I have installed OSs from ms since i once paid to have 5.0 and 3.1 reinstalled.
every once in a while I would try a Linux distro.
until Knoppix live all were more trouble than windows
but installing from a live disk was no fun until Ubuntu
I have since found only slax to have the audio driver I'm short in all the others.
still that is only one old computer.
ubuntu is the OS of first choice
Vista is nowhere

Spam Banjo
August 7th, 2007, 01:33 PM
Oh I just gotta chip in on this one!!

I have been an on/off Windows user for 13 years (3.1 > 98 Pro > 2000 Pro > Server 2003 > XP Pro > Vist-eew Home, HA!), and more recently a Ubuntu user for about 3-4 months.

My 50+ mother however has been using it for about 6-8 months.

She was given an old slow computer, with Win ME installed and after using it for just 3 weeks, was about to give up on computers get rid of the old thing. The machine was slow, and the OS as poor as it gets!!!

You can't really blame her, can you!?!

Luckily I had the idea of trying one of these 3 free disks I had been sent by these nutters at Ubuntu. I had not long installed it on an old AMD K7 based machine, to see what it was like, but only managed to spend a few hours getting over the initial "NO! It can't be that easy... surely" phase. Literally the next day, work got heavy, and I didn't get chance to play with it again.

So my mom ended up a regular ubuntu user b4 me... Nearly 20 years computing (from my first computer/console combo of a Sinclair Spectrum 128k and a 1978 Wooden-fronted Atari 2600 to my '64 Bit Dell' / 'Nintendo Wii Combo') my bloody mother actually started using Linux before me!!! And she has never even questioned it. She, like you said, only uses it for the common tasks... Web, Email, Gaim, Photos from camera, and has never complained once. She's never had any problems.


I recently got a new machine at work, and unfortunately, the shop would not roll it back to XP, so I got Vista Home bundled!!! Pffffffft!

I used it for around an hour the day it came. I turned off AERO or whatever they call it (Basicly a cheap attempt at copying Linux's Emerald Window Decorator) and removed all the crappy desktop effects, services and other crap that has slowed windows down for as long as it has existed, I managed to get it running similar in performance to XP once all the service packs, etc are installed and slowing it down.

As you probably guessed, I now also work on Ubuntu. Best thing I ever did. Programs load faster under WINE than they ever did in Windows. Dreamweaver actually perfoms SO much better it makes me paranoid that something didn't install right. Even the FTP and Remote File Browser work.

It's now been a few months since I installed at work. 4 of my friends now use Ubuntu, 2 of them are dual booting with OpenSUSE. There's Me, and My mom using it at home, my boss plans to install on his Work PC, Home PC and his Laptop, and I plan on buying a laptop to both increase my Ubuntu usage, and to have a 'portable demo' that I can show to all the nutters I know that refuse to make the switch. YES... IT'S REALLY THAT GOOD YOU WINDOWS-FANBOYS!

It's the best thing I ever did, although until hardware manufacturers sort themselves out and improve compatibility I'd recommend a Linux/XP dual boot to allow you to use unsupported devices. I do however feel that people moving to Linux will eventually force manufacturers to support it. If companies supporting Linux start to make much larger profits than incompatible manufacturers, it will force a rethink of the whole industry. And I think the first step to this goal is through the business user.

Prove to a professional business user that your system is compatible, faster and more secure, and you have pretty much won the guy already. All you need to do is make it easy for him to make the switch my supporting his old windows filetypes such as Office Documents (especially MDB support, that realy needs improving) and he's almost home.

The biggest factor I have seen so far is E-Mail. people just aren't willing to loose years of contacts and communication with customers. Make it easy to import Outlook / Outlook Express accounts and emails and the nail is in the coffin.

There are very few reasons left to stay with windows, and I think Ubuntu is the perfect platform to hook in new users. I'm blown away, not only by the speed, efficiency and versatility of Ubuntu (of cause don't forget the price!) but also the power and togetherness of it's community. Without this site I would be back using windows right now.

Then I'd loose Compiz, and that's NOT going to happen!!!

You guys are a credit to the cause and for that I thank each and every one of you. You have made my computing experience more fun, flexible... and FREE in so many different definitions of the word!!

You all deserve a ma-hu-sive pat on the back!!!

Lord Illidan
August 7th, 2007, 01:41 PM
I used it for around an hour the day it came. I turned off AERO or whatever they call it (Basicly a cheap attempt at copying Linux's Emerald Window Decorator) and removed all the crappy desktop effects, services and other crap that has slowed windows down for as long as it has existed, I managed to get it running similar in performance to XP once all the service packs, etc are installed and slowing it down.

Not to pick hairs, but Aero was around (in production) long before Emerald began..

Spam Banjo
August 7th, 2007, 02:37 PM
Not to pick hairs, but Aero was around (in production) long before Emerald began..

Realy?!? I never knew that.

I assumed with emerald being fairly well established and released so long it came first.

My bad.

por100pre1
August 7th, 2007, 03:30 PM
There are testimonials in these forums about children, elderly persons, and even people with medical conditions using Ubuntu nicely, and having fun using it. But the average Joe keeps complaining in the forums about using the terminal, missing his favorite program, etc. Let's face it... the average Joe is a moron and deserves to use Windows. :p

armandh
August 7th, 2007, 03:34 PM
average shmo here
after 3 successful installs from the live disk, 2 solo on old P-IIIs [for practice] and one dual boot on a 2GHZ AMD, I could not be more pleased, I have stumbled through part of the learning curve. got the codex[s]. went to thunderbird for e-mail as I know the setup and it loads quickly. found my NSLU-2. changed to auto sign in. burned an iso. all with out need of instruction books/disks it is just that easy. and lastly 2 CL changes.

there are a few slower machines in the basement. they may be disposed of with no OS and a live disk. I doubt I will ever buy another winOS

zero244
August 9th, 2007, 03:59 AM
Great Posts Guys
Glad everyone is having a good time with Ubuntu.
To the original poster, you are doing Ubuntu and Linux a favor using and trying to promote Linux to people you know.
Helping people install and setup Ubuntu is how Windows grew and grew and grew and now Windows is so overweight its bed ridden.
At any rate promoting Linux and trying to show people the advantages of Ubuntu is very commendable.

ashdezign
November 11th, 2007, 04:14 AM
Spam Banjo
"The biggest factor I have seen so far is E-Mail. people just aren't willing to loose years of contacts and communication with customers. Make it easy to import Outlook / Outlook Express accounts and emails and the nail is in the coffin."

I have yet to try importing emails from outlook yet myself as most of the people I have dealt with either already used Thunderbird in Windows or used webmail but I did find some articles about importing from outlook to Thunderbird. The key seems to be importing from outlook to outlook express and then from outlook express into Thunderbird. In the context of a Linux install I would imagine you would first have to install Thunderbird on the Windows computer do the importing then backup the Thunderbird profile and then copy it over into Thunderbird after the Linux install. If Evolution is preferred as the email client it easily imports Thunderbird mailbox's as well.

http://www.thoughtsonthings.com/archives/2006/03/outlook_vs_thun.php

http://email.about.com/od/mozillathunderbirdtips/qt/et122305.htm

http://kb.mozillazine.org/Import_from_Outlook_Express


This article seems to indicate you can import directly from outlook to Thunderbird without having to import into outlook express first: http://support.real-time.com/tbird/outlook_import.html

As for MDB support, yes that is a continuing problem. Most word documents and excel documents import into Open Office without to much trouble. In the few instances when I had things displaying improperly I just hit ctrl+a and then "clear formatting" and that seemed to solve the problem.

Powerpoint importing remains an issue as well as OO Presentation does not always import properly. but Microsoft does have the powerpoint viewer for linux which works well enough to view, if not create powerpoint presentations.

chrisch
November 15th, 2007, 06:46 PM
I must say, first I am surprised I sat here and read that whole post. Second, kudos to you for writing it. I have not seen those points brought out like that before (meaning the pre-installation).

Every day I spend hours fixing, tweaking, tuning, and any other word you can come up with to describe what I need to do to keep Windows running on 50+ machines. I have CAD designers who sit on their computer for 8 hours a day and blast through SolidWorks like nobodies business. But if I asked them to defrag their hard drive, they will look at me like I have 3 heads.

You are absolutely correct, people are dumb when it comes to computers. They want to click a button and it works. Me, I like to tinker with Ubuntu, not Windows because I do it every day.

I am happy to use Ubuntu, it has revitalized my desire to "Play" with a computer again. Thanks Ubuntu!