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bread eyes
August 1st, 2007, 07:37 PM
I think that would seem to make the most sense.

Rocket2DMn
August 1st, 2007, 07:43 PM
They are completely different desktop environments, why should they merge? They are not converging on the same final product. They are already "patches", you could say, for the X-server. They are built on X to provide an interface, but they are completely different from eachother, though in many ways perform the same function - after all, most GUIs do.
They have totally separate programs, configs, and design.

GeneralZod
August 1st, 2007, 07:46 PM
I think that would seem to make the most sense.

You'll have to explain this in much more detail because, at the moment, it doesn't make any sense at all (no offence :)) - KDE and GNOME are so different architecturally that a straightforward code merge is more or less a complete impossibility.

misfitpierce
August 1st, 2007, 07:47 PM
I vote nay.... Indeed totally diff environments and some prefer KDE over Gnome as some prefer Gnome over KDE.... It's personal preference and its excellent that its that way.

bulldog060
August 1st, 2007, 07:47 PM
just that thought makes me a little sick to my stomach ... why would anyone want to screw up gnome like that?

bread eyes
August 1st, 2007, 07:50 PM
They are completely different desktop environments, why should they merge? They are not converging on the same final product. They are already "patches", you could say, for the X-server. They are built on X to provide an interface, but they are completely different from eachother, though in many ways perform the same function - after all, most GUIs do.
They have totally separate programs, configs, and design.

They have the same goal.

bread eyes
August 1st, 2007, 07:53 PM
You'll have to explain this in much more detail because, at the moment, it doesn't make any sense at all (no offence :)) - KDE and GNOME are so different architecturally that a straightforward code merge is more or less a complete impossibility.

Because theres no point in having 2 projects with the same goal.

Rocket2DMn
August 1st, 2007, 07:53 PM
They have the same goal.

True, their goal is to provide a nice, easy to use GUI, but they go about fulfilling this goal quite differently, and hence should not be merged. Choosing a desktop manager is a matter of preference, and I like to keep my options open.

GeneralZod
August 1st, 2007, 07:55 PM
Because theres no point in having 2 projects with the same goal.

I was actually asking more about the How and the What than the Why ;)

reyfer
August 1st, 2007, 07:59 PM
They have the same goal.

So do Mandriva, Ubuntu, Fedora, Slackware, Debian, etc... but that is no reason enough to merge.

init1
August 1st, 2007, 08:02 PM
They have the same goal.
Not really. KDE and Gnome act very different. What is this goal anyway?

juxtaposed
August 1st, 2007, 08:02 PM
No way. It would be pointless.

Incense
August 1st, 2007, 08:02 PM
I like having choice. It makes using Linux that much better.

bread eyes
August 1st, 2007, 08:02 PM
I was actually asking more about the How and the What than the Why ;)

Oh, I'd imagine they would mostly use KDE's architecture considering it's more complete but keep GTK+ and libXML.

bread eyes
August 1st, 2007, 08:03 PM
True, their goal is to provide a nice, easy to use GUI, but they go about fulfilling this goal quite differently, and hence should not be merged. Choosing a desktop manager is a matter of preference, and I like to keep my options open.

that's where patching comes in

bowens44
August 1st, 2007, 08:03 PM
They're completely different. Some like gnome some like KDE, why merge them an make everyone angry?

tbroderick
August 1st, 2007, 08:05 PM
They should both merge with dwm.

bulldog060
August 1st, 2007, 08:05 PM
Because theres no point in having 2 projects with the same goal.

are you also suggesting that there is no point in having different operating systems? or text editors? or media player?

without all of the different projects giving users the option to do what they like with their systems ... well your just running winblows

bread eyes
August 1st, 2007, 08:07 PM
So do Mandriva, Ubuntu, Fedora, Slackware, Debian, etc... but that is no reason enough to merge.

That's different, they share a lot more then KDE and Gnome do.

GeneralZod
August 1st, 2007, 08:10 PM
Oh, I'd imagine they would mostly use KDE's architecture considering it's more complete but keep GTK+ and libXML.

Ah, OK - the problem is that removing Qt would cripple KDE's infrastructure (and all of its apps, many of which are top-notch) just as much as removing GTK would cripple GNOME, so it's not really achievable.

bread eyes
August 1st, 2007, 08:13 PM
I like having choice. It makes using Linux that much better.

You would still have gnome as a choice the only difference would be that they would share more stuff.

FuturePilot
August 1st, 2007, 08:17 PM
KDE and Gnome are completely different. Two separate desktop environments with two different goals. It wouldn't make any sense merging them. And besides it would only narrow our choices.

bulldog060
August 1st, 2007, 08:19 PM
You would still have gnome as a choice the only difference would be that they would share more stuff.

.... or you could just install the one you like, and grab bits and pieces from the other one that you might want.

which ubuntu is very nice about when you use synaptic, i like gnome but for a long time i was using konsole and kontact.

bonzodog
August 1st, 2007, 08:20 PM
Yes, they are VERY different environments, right down to the code level.

Gnome is GTK libraries, built on C.

KDE is C++ built on the qt libraries.

The infrastructure is completely different.

A lot of people would argue that GTK is a far more complete and better rendering library, and that qt is a memory hungry waste of resources, thus KDE should rightly merge into Gnome, and perhaps make patches, and scrap it's entire codebase, rebuild in gtk and C.

What do you think? This is just impossible -- the two projects are too far apart.

Not just that, but the very nature of Open Source means that if anything like this was to be attempted, someone would merely fork it.

Open Source is an unstoppable train, forget it.

bread eyes
August 1st, 2007, 08:21 PM
Ah, OK - the problem is that removing Qt would cripple KDE's infrastructure (and all of its apps, many of which are top-notch) just as much as removing GTK would cripple GNOME, so it's not really achievable.

You misunderstand, I meant that they could use QT and GTK not replace QT with GTK.

starcraft.man
August 1st, 2007, 08:27 PM
Uh, no. GNOME and KDE are entirely different, I dunno where on earth the idea to merge came from. I like my GNOME though and don't want it to become some hack/patch of KDE. No thanks.

Freddy
August 1st, 2007, 08:31 PM
All I have to say is...huh?

b9anders
August 1st, 2007, 08:38 PM
this reminds me a bit of someone a while ago who wished they would make Ubuntu without all the Debian as he felt they could do without that.

Things like these are just so farfetched they aren't even worth contemplating.

PatrickMay16
August 1st, 2007, 08:41 PM
Rather than merging, they should just work together so that you can use a gnome app in kde, or a kde app in gnome, and both will work well even though they're being used in different environments.

Quillz
August 1st, 2007, 08:41 PM
No, they shouldn't.

bread eyes
August 1st, 2007, 08:41 PM
are you also suggesting that there is no point in having different operating systems? or text editors? or media player?

without all of the different projects giving users the option to do what they like with their systems ... well your just running winblows

All of those thing don't necessarily have the same goals. Also, I don't think it's bad for things to do stuff a different way I just think that they should minimize duplicated effort. Basically the same reason people want Linux and Solaris to merge.

bulldog060
August 1st, 2007, 09:00 PM
All of those thing don't necessarily have the same goals. Also, I don't think it's bad for things to do stuff a different way I just think that they should minimize duplicated effort. Basically the same reason people want Linux and Solaris to merge.

so your trying to say operating systems don't all have the goal of providing a way to allow a user to interface with the computer? or text editors don't have a goal of allowing a user to umm ... edit text? and how many goals could a media player have?

the people that want linux and solaris to merge are the people that have to work in multiple environments and get annoyed with the difference between linux tools and the solaris versions of those tools because the options and abilities change.

the biggest point that everyone is trying to make here is that what you are suggesting sounds like something cooked up in a microsoft think tank (heh). the reason so many people like linux is because you can do what you want to and in anyway you like, which is why there are multiple projects with similar goals.

i vote for letting the good projects build up a base ( all of the people in the `no' column ) and the others fading away.

macogw
August 1st, 2007, 09:02 PM
They have the same goal.

So do Windows, OSX, and GNU/Linux (to communicate between the programs and the hardware). Should they all merge too?

Frak
August 1st, 2007, 09:06 PM
Gnome is there to be easy
KDE is there to look cool (KDE4 anyone)
different scopes.

cookies
August 1st, 2007, 09:30 PM
No, then I'd see features disappearing from my KDE because "The users would get confused".

swoll1980
August 1st, 2007, 09:45 PM
no, kde and gnome are completely different I don't see how them merging would be productive

Afoot
August 1st, 2007, 09:51 PM
While I agree at one level that it would be much more beneficial for Linux as a community to combine people's efforts more, I just don't see this happening. And since they're both based on two completely different set of libraries, services and philosophy, a merge would only create chaos. A more efficient merge would be - although not a merge per say - to disband one of the efforts and join forces, creating a larger work force on one of the projects. But as I said, I just don't see it happening.

smiggs
August 1st, 2007, 09:53 PM
No we need more choice, if you want you could fork KDE and/or Gnome and the merge the code base to make some kind of mutant pony called Knome or GDE but I'd still like to keep Gnome and KDE seperate and active they have competing philophies and at some point one of them might find the pot of gold at the end of rainbow but we're more likely if two groups of people are looking in two different ways or three if you want to create GKpony.

bwtranch
August 1st, 2007, 09:58 PM
They have merged on my desktop. I am testing Gutsy on this one and I am using the Gnome desktop, KDE installed with a Deb app finder.

Gnome is a little more efficient. KDE has way more apps to use, play around with, crash, whatever. Deb helps me find it in all that mess. But, like I say, I'm testing. Got to Tribe 3 and it hasn't crashed yet. More stable than Windows XP right out of the box. Not to mention Visduh.

Just wanted to see if my tux flyswatter image shows up. Bye.

bread eyes
August 1st, 2007, 09:59 PM
so your trying to say operating systems don't all have the goal of providing a way to allow a user to interface with the computer? or text editors don't have a goal of allowing a user to umm ... edit text? and how many goals could a media player have?

the people that want linux and solaris to merge are the people that have to work in multiple environments and get annoyed with the difference between linux tools and the solaris versions of those tools because the options and abilities change.


They still don't have the same goal. OpenBSD and Linux are both OSs but they have different goals. Emacs and MS notepad are both text editor but they have different goals. VLC and Amarok are both text editor but they have different goals. FreeBSD and DragonflyBSD have the same goal and do SMP differently but they still try to work together .


the people that want linux and solaris to merge are the people that have to work in multiple environments and get annoyed with the difference between linux tools and the solaris versions of those tools because the options and abilities change.


I was talking about the kernel. Like how Linus says theres no point in having 2 open source kernels.

bwtranch
August 1st, 2007, 10:39 PM
That's right just one open source kernals is enough.

Hex_Mandos
August 1st, 2007, 11:26 PM
Then why isn't Linux merged into the HURD?

bread eyes
August 1st, 2007, 11:32 PM
Then why isn't Linux merged into the HURD?

The way they do things is too different.

Rocket2DMn
August 2nd, 2007, 12:03 AM
The way they do things is too different.

Bingo, there is the answer to your original question and the "no" response.

yorkie
August 2nd, 2007, 12:03 AM
KDE XFCE GNOME Which one should be the main one for Ubuntu ,it does not matter as long as there is only one before you all switch off let me explain why ?
MS Windows love it or hate it worlds number one o/s
MAC O/S worlds number two o/s
Both very successful Then we have LInux at least 30/40 different variations. Ubuntu how many variations are there I have lost count succcessful in the server department very .but in desktop an also ran and why is this when Linux is better than Windows or MAC in most cases. Answer without a doubt hardware support how many people dual boot with Windows just read the forums example I only have Windows installed because my printer,scanner, soundcard and games only work in Windows I buy a piece of hardware for WINDOWS/Mac and I get a driver disk with it.I don`t have the hassle of searching forums or compiling drivers which most of the time I have to do in linux.
The reason hardware manufactors don`t provide drivers for linux because of two many distro`s
If Ubuntu is to succeed big time which it deserves would`nt it be better to have just one Ubuntu with just one desktop albeit kde,xfce or gnome. The priority shold be to produce a stable o/s and to press hardware manufactors to provide driver support. until it becomes a completely out of the box o/s most people will continue to install Ubuntu as a second o/s or something to play with.
If linux is to survive for the desktop then REDHAT.SUSE.UBUNTU MANDRIVA and all the other distros should be working together on this issue .I thankyou for reading this and it is only my opinion but I think the point is a valid one

Extreme Coder
August 2nd, 2007, 12:38 AM
While I hope this could happen, since teams of both Desktop Environments always have to write some code that the other team wrote, I'm sure this isn't possible, since they're far too different.

Ah well, you can always wish, can't you? :P

maniacmusician
August 2nd, 2007, 12:44 AM
There're really little to no animosity between the two development groups. It's the users that create problems; they start pointless flamewars against each other and make it seem as though its KDE vs Gnome, which it really isn't. A lot of KDE developers are friendly with a lot of KDE developers.

The focus should really be on helping the two coexist together, and making things like toolkits somewhat irrelevant. KDE is already doing this to an extent. They have a KCMShell that lets you easily configure your gtkrc, and makes GTK apps look good in KDE. Unfortunately, there's no gnome tools to do this for Qt apps.

There just needs to be more communication back and forth. It's not just about the appearance of the apps, there's also the issue of performance related to having to load extra libs. Neither project is really pursuing this aggressively.

olieviya
August 2nd, 2007, 12:47 AM
I really don't see why they should merge, alternatives are always good and some competition is beneficial.

aysiu
August 2nd, 2007, 01:03 AM
Read about the Portland Project:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portland_project

bread eyes
August 2nd, 2007, 01:18 AM
Read about the Portland Project:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portland_project

Ya, something like that would be nice.

racoq
August 2nd, 2007, 01:19 AM
Healthy completion between Gnome and KDE exist. When Gnome release 2.0 version they pushed the gnome DE to a whole new level of simplicity and usability. That pushed the KDE developers, to based on what the gnome developers did, start working on KDE4, for instance the gnome simplicity, contributed for the KDE developers find out that people don't like to be "bombed", with many configuration dialogs and options, and they choose on KDE4 to hide them in some sort of advanced menu. Hopefully when KDE4 does get released, some great features,t will push the Gnome developers to think in Gnome 3.0, and this competition will go on and on.

It's healthy competition that makes both DE evolve. Your idea would ruin this, and it is totally unacceptable for me and many users. People want alternatives not a monopoly.

bread eyes
August 2nd, 2007, 01:33 AM
Healthy completion between Gnome and KDE exist. When Gnome release 2.0 version they pushed the gnome DE to a whole new level of simplicity and usability. That pushed the KDE developers, to based on what the gnome developers did, start working on KDE4, for instance the gnome simplicity, contributed for the KDE developers find out that people don't like to be "bombed", with many configuration dialogs and options, and they choose on KDE4 to hide them in some sort of advanced menu. Hopefully when KDE4 does get released, some great features,t will push the Gnome developers to think in Gnome 3.0, and this competition will go on and on.

It's healthy competition that makes both DE evolve. Your idea would ruin this, and it is totally unacceptable for me and many users. People want alternatives not a monopoly.

Not by much in OSS. Competition has little effect between OSS because the people who make it make it because they just want to. Also, there seems to be about the same number of GUI configuration options in KDE4.

init1
August 2nd, 2007, 01:37 AM
They should both merge with dwm.
Why? DWM is cool (I'm using it now :D), but would be ruined by adding to it. The point was to be small and quick. Or were you kidding? I couldn't tell.

jclmusic
August 2nd, 2007, 02:29 PM
no, just no lol gnome has different goals to kde. if gnome really had to merge with something (which it doesn't) it should be xfce.

ltk5
August 2nd, 2007, 03:16 PM
I voted no. I like Gnome because of the way it is. If it was more like KDE, I'd probably switch to blackbox/fluckbox thingies.

23meg
August 2nd, 2007, 03:27 PM
People seriously discussing this should merge into KDE and just make patches.

happy-and-lost
August 2nd, 2007, 03:35 PM
Can you imagine the carnage on dev mailing lists and forums as poeple bicker over QT vs GTK? No, it's not worth the pain.

fyllekajan
August 2nd, 2007, 05:42 PM
People seriously discussing this should merge into KDE and just make patches.

And thereby putting their fanboyism to good use.

Erunno
August 2nd, 2007, 06:06 PM
A lot of KDE developers are friendly with a lot of KDE developers.

I certainly hope so! ;-)

Erunno
August 2nd, 2007, 06:12 PM
That pushed the KDE developers, to based on what the gnome developers did, start working on KDE4, for instance the gnome simplicity, contributed for the KDE developers find out that people don't like to be "bombed", with many configuration dialogs and options, and they choose on KDE4 to hide them in some sort of advanced menu.

The only application that uses an advanced menu I'm aware of is System Setttings and even that decision is disputed as some usability people working with KDE have come to the conclusion that visible advanced settings will prompt users to look into it anyway as there might be some useful option hidden there and thus creating only another layer in the options menu. Plus, the distinction between what is advanced and what is basic is in may cases pretty arbitrary and depends very much on the user.

ThinkBuntu
August 2nd, 2007, 06:26 PM
I wish all GNOME developers would just contribute to Xfce. But that runs the risk of Xfce unnecessarily hogging memory like GNOME does. I agree with Slackware for dropping GNOME support, although I think they should still provide security updates.

smartboyathome
August 2nd, 2007, 06:52 PM
The way they do things is too different.
Bingo, there is the answer to your original question and the "no" response.

This is the most important post in this thread. They are both VERY different, with very different goals. KDE aims at making GUIs for everything, while Gnome strives to be flexible in its coding. This simple fact separates KDE and Gnome completely.

fyllekajan
August 2nd, 2007, 08:16 PM
This is the most important post in this thread. They are both VERY different, with very different goals. KDE aims at making GUIs for everything, while Gnome strives to be flexible in its coding. This simple fact separates KDE and Gnome completely.

Most important post to whom? The way the OP formulated the question it was obviously nothing but flamebait to begin with.

vexorian
August 2nd, 2007, 08:22 PM
please add an option to the poll:

Hell no!

Hey, what makes Linux good is that there are many choices and they all compete with each other which makes them forcefuly improve within time.

If we unified everything then we would get lame like windows...

forrestcupp
August 2nd, 2007, 08:55 PM
This is the most important post in this thread. They are both VERY different, with very different goals. KDE aims at making GUIs for everything, while Gnome strives to be flexible in its coding. This simple fact separates KDE and Gnome completely.

That sounds like a biased statement from a Gnome supporter.

bulldog060
August 3rd, 2007, 04:38 PM
That sounds like a biased statement from a Gnome supporter.

That sounds like a biased statement from a KDE supporter, here is what I found:

From kde.org:
"KDE or the K Desktop Environment, is a network transparent contemporary desktop environment for UNIX workstations. KDE seeks to fulfill the need for an easy to use desktop for UNIX workstations, similar to desktop environments found on Macintosh and Microsoft Windows operating systems. "

From gnome.org:
"The GNOME project provides two things: The GNOME desktop environment, an intuitive and attractive desktop for users, and the GNOME development platform, an extensive framework for building applications that integrate into the rest of the desktop."

Seems like his statement was holding pretty true to the project overviews.

jrusso2
August 3rd, 2007, 04:56 PM
Having one main desktop environment would make it much easier for commecrial applications to be developed for Linux.

In addition you would not have the same problems with installation if one package management system could be agreed upon.

Then you could have something more akin to Mac OS X where you could just drag applications into a directory and they would just work.

a12ctic
August 3rd, 2007, 05:10 PM
God no... KDE is a complete mess, any distribution using KDE looks like a complete unprofessional peice of garabage. I don't even understand how anyone can use it.

Erunno
August 3rd, 2007, 05:11 PM
Then you could have something more akin to Mac OS X where you could just drag applications into a directory and they would just work.

Most developers will get a rash if you suggest them to roll out statically linked packages :-P

vexorian
August 3rd, 2007, 07:51 PM
Having one main desktop environment would make it much easier for commecrial applications to be developed for Linux.

myth.

Seriously, either pick gtk or qt both work well on gnome or KDE once installed, or be smarter and use wxwidgets, that would also do fine in windows...


Then you could have something more akin to Mac OS X where you could just drag applications into a directory and they would just work.That's not necesarily easier to install than double clicking a .deb or asking a program to install a package from the web..., but it is already possible, and this has nothing to do really with KDE and GTK, but dependency hell...

Frak
August 3rd, 2007, 08:04 PM
God no... KDE is a complete mess, any distribution using KDE looks like a complete unprofessional peice of garabage. I don't even understand how anyone can use it.
Its a little unorganized, but not horrible. I find KDE4 to be very clean and well setup. They are now using the SUSE style KDE Kickstart also, which is very organized. The icons are highlighted OSX style, and panes can be changed within windows.
KDE4 will definately change your opinion, I guarantee it.

mech7
August 3rd, 2007, 08:42 PM
they should join.. there's to much bugs / crap in both and seem to have miss manpower in both too :(

bread eyes
August 3rd, 2007, 10:46 PM
Bingo, there is the answer to your original question and the "no" response.

But they're not as different, you can't really associate them so closely.

LuisAugusto
August 5th, 2007, 08:47 AM
Of course no.

-GNOME is designed to be simple, to give the less options possible (only what they consider completely necessary) in order to doesn't confuse the user, and it's aiming to polish things more than any other environment, which is nice, but at the same time, this make gnome to evolve slow.

-KDE is designed to give the user as much options as possible, in order to make all users happy, although it's a very polish environment they tend to worry more about new and blending edge technology than correct little bugs, in contrast to gnome, it evolves really fast.

KDE is a lot more complete and advanced than GNOME, however GNOME it's a lot easy to follow and intuitive (from my point of view).

PS: I'm talking about KDE 3.5.7 and GNOME 2.18.

ecr959
November 18th, 2007, 04:18 PM
I know I am joining very late into this discussion, but this idea has been on many people's minds since 2002. I am a happy Ubuntu user for 1.5 years, a happy linux user for about 5 or 6 yrs, and I happen to agree very much with this. They should merge, but not for the express purpose of beating Windows, but for the purpose of becoming a more, unified, acceptable desktop for linux users worldwide. With the merge, we can improve the overall performance alot quicker, and become a better linux desktop, overall.

Just my 2-cents.:)

Linuxratty
November 18th, 2007, 04:35 PM
just that thought makes me a little sick to my stomach ... why would anyone want to screw up gnome like that?

KDE fans would have the same question.

Flying caveman
November 18th, 2007, 06:44 PM
Kwhy kwould kanybody kwant kto kdo kthatat ?

omns
November 18th, 2007, 07:38 PM
This poll represents a complete misunderstanding of the basics of both kde and gnome. It's based on a complete impossibility. No wonder there are so many no votes.

DeadSuperHero
November 18th, 2007, 08:05 PM
I don't see it as an impossibility, but it shouldn't be a main thing. If some devs want to start a new DE which merges KDE and GNOME, and they can pull it off effectively, more power to them.
Still, I would be interested in knowing why anyone would do that. KDE4 looks brilliant, as do the mockups for the Topaz project. The ideas behind GNOME3 look very pleasing.
Why not just let the end user choose, ultimately?

Incense
November 18th, 2007, 08:17 PM
I like the idea of not having a standard Linux desktop. Choice is always a good thing. I do think it confuses new users though. I remember the first time I installed SuSE back in the day, I was asked what DE I wanted, GNOME or KDE, and that meant nothing to me. So in that case it would have been nice to have a DEFAULT DE, but I would hate to not have a choice afterwards.

SunnyRabbiera
November 18th, 2007, 08:25 PM
well perhaps not a merger, but it would be nice if the two decided to co operate with eachother.
A partnership I think would be beneficial, but not a merger

akiratheoni
November 18th, 2007, 08:26 PM
The closest thing KDE and GNOME should do to 'merge' is just making better compatibility between Qt apps and GTK apps, but that's all. I think they should remain separate.

SunnyRabbiera
November 18th, 2007, 08:51 PM
thats how I see it, as better co operation between the two can be very beneficial.
really the competition between the two is a good thing in a way, but perhaps there should be ways to make sure the two can co operate better.

zenwhen
November 18th, 2007, 09:15 PM
Absolutely not.

-grubby
November 18th, 2007, 09:17 PM
they could, but it would take alot of work. also, I like choices