Thread locking is bad :/

[juxtaposed]

Here is a request to the mods (KiwiNZ, ignore this, you'll take offense).

It's annoying when threads get closed just because you guys (mods) feel like it... I take time to type up a response to something and poof, "this thread is closed". Yes, I know; This doesn't happen all the time (two recently: death of debate a few minutes ago and freedom poll before that), but this is just one of my pet peeves.

It's pretty much like if you were in a heated discussion with a couple of people and then some random person who wasn't in the debate stops it just for the sake of it.

The moral (similar to the request) of this short post is that messing around with debates is bad :)

[Nano Geek]

I agree and I would like the Death of Debate thread to be opened again.
I didn't get to answer the last post there.

[primski]

and you can actually remember your user name for logging in etcetc, asjdfwejqrfjcvm msz34rq33 ?

respect :D

[handy]

I can understand that the mod's have got a huge job keeping an eye on the very busy Ubuntu Forums, & this Backyard section which doesn't even have anything technically to do with Ubuntu could be one of the biggest investments in their time...

So when they see not much but emotion being expressed, I guess they just shut the gate in the name of overall efficiency.

[needtolookatascreenshot]

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=519877

[Nano Geek]

In the Death of Debate, my debating partner called me a name and instead of warning him that the tread would be locked if that happened, matthew just went ahead and locked it. I think that they should give a warning before locking threads.

[ubuntu-geek]

Oh cry me a river..

[PriceChild]

I understand your frustration with locking. However I think you should remember that we never lock threads "for the sake of it."
Forums CoC:4. Forum Threads and Flaming:
Flaming and condescending messages: Flames are messages that personally attack, call people names, or otherwise harass another forum member (or any person). These, along with any generally condescending posts will be moved or removed at the moderators discretion.
If the thread is flame-bait (appears to be intended to start an argument or is likely to cause an argument rather than enhance discussion), it will be locked or removed without notice. Individual flame-bait may be deleted or edited at the moderators' discretion. Any users who continue to post in this manner or engage in other questionable practices, like trolling (posting in an attempt to engage people in arguments) may be subject to more serious sanctions.
If the thread turns into an argument, it can be locked or removed without notice. Sometimes a moderator may split the thread or delete certain portions in order to keep the discussion going, but that is not always possible.Those are in the guidelines that you agreed to when you signed up to these forums, and I think they are the most relevant to this post. We want to keep the peace and facilitate useful discussion.

I have to run now but I think you should think about that. I'll be back to reply later. And I don't see a post like this as an insult in any way.

[truthfatal]

Agreed, handy.

But it can be a little exasperating when you put a lot of thought into a post. Particularly if the thread in question is locked while you're typing (That hasn't happened to me recently, but it's happened :( ).

The Death of Debate thread didn't really suprise me after I read some of the posts following mine... That one was fairly closed IMO, people ignored the warning and continued to post wildly off topic. I find that unfortunate because if it had stayed somewhat on topic it could have been a really good discussion.

It's also confusing when a thread gets moved mid-post... ;)

[M$LOL]

If I were a mod, I'd lock this thread. ;)

Honestly, on some forums, the mods and admins do whatever they like, whenever they feel like it, names changed, post counts zeroed, users suspended without warning, and often they just do it to annoying users for fun or to demonstrate that they can do whatever they like. If the mods here decide that threads should be locked, I think we should respect their decisions and move on. You can always PM them and ask them about it.

[Nano Geek]

Oh cry me a river..That doesn't really help ubuntu-geek.
I respect the mods decision to close the thread, but its annoying when after debating for awhile to have yourself silenced without warning.

[juxtaposed]

Oh cry me a river..

:/


I understand your frustration with locking. However I think you should remember that we never lock threads "for the sake of it."

You can interpret anything as flaming/attacking someone though. I had a request to stop thread locking in my signature and a mod took it as attacking them...

The problem comes when stopping flaming gets in the way of the debate (despite the fact that flaming really shouldn't be a problem). Closing the thread to stop flaming is overkill.

Those are in the guidelines that you agreed to when you signed up to these forums, and I think they are the most relevant to this post.

The thing is someone can interpret something as anything and use that to their advantage, whether or not they got the original meaning right.

And I don't see a post like this as an insult in any way.

I just had to say that because there was someone in the recent past who took offense to me not liking thread locking.

people ignored the warning and continued to post wildly off topic.

Off topic is just a thread evolving. If people talk about it then they want to talk about it. Forcing people on to the original topic means that they might make a new thread about it, which some mod will then think about merging them all anyway (like they said on some post here).

Honestly, on some forums, the mods and admins do whatever they like, whenever they feel like it, names changed, post counts zeroed, users suspended without warning, and often they just do it to annoying users for fun or to demonstrate that they can do whatever they like.

Which is very annoying. They (not specifically refering to any forums here, just bad forum admins in general) feel they can treat their users like dirt, when technically they can, but it won't make people too happy about it...

You can always PM them and ask them about it.

I've had a PM discussion with a mod about thread locking and I got absolutly nowhere at all, they wouldn't say anything with any meaning or substance, they just tried to act professional so I just got bored and stopped replying.

My ultimate point is that if the point of these forums are to give the users a place to talk about things that they want to talk about then thread locking is bad, because that only stops people from talking about things that they want to talk about. If no one wanted to talk about a certain thing then no one would. But if the point of these forums isn't that, then I don't know what to say.

[PriceChild]

The problem comes when stopping flaming gets in the way of the debate (despite the fact that flaming really shouldn't be a problem). Closing the thread to stop flaming is overkill.I've stopped reading there I'm afraid. We are not having flaming on this forum.

[M$LOL]

You can interpret anything as flaming/attacking someone though.

I disagree.

I had a request to stop thread locking in my signature and a mod took it as attacking them...

Conducting it in private is much better from a mod's point of view, remember they have to be seen to have authority and not bow to the wishes of anyone who has a demand in their sig. (I'm not saying you were wrong about what you had in your sig, just that PMs are probably a better way of doing it).

The problem comes when stopping flaming gets in the way of the debate (despite the fact that flaming really shouldn't be a problem). Closing the thread to stop flaming is overkill.

I'm not here to have flamewars, I'm here to have reasonable discussions.

The thing is someone can interpret something as anything and use that to their advantage, whether or not they got the original meaning right.

You have to respect the mods' authority on this.

Off topic is just a thread evolving. If people talk about it then they want to talk about it. Forcing people on to the original topic means that they might make a new thread about it, which some mod will then think about merging them all anyway (like they said on some post here).

But the OP wants to have a discussion about their topic, not other stuff.

Which is very annoying. They (not specifically refering to any forums here, just bad forum admins in general) feel they can treat their users like dirt, when technically they can, but it won't make people too happy about it...

Although, "Admin abuse" can be used constructively in some circumstances.

I've had a PM discussion with a mod about thread locking and I got absolutly nowhere at all, they wouldn't say anything with any meaning or substance, they just tried to act professional so I just got bored and stopped replying.

Then take it up with an admin.

My ultimate point is that if the point of these forums are to give the users a place to talk about things that they want to talk about then thread locking is bad, because that only stops people from talking about things that they want to talk about. If no one wanted to talk about a certain thing then no one would. But if the point of these forums isn't that, then I don't know what to say.
The mods are here to encourage discussion which doesn't break the rules, not suppress it. Give them the benefit of the doubt, it would be a lot worse if they didn't enforce the rules. ;)

[hackle577]

I agree with M$LOL, the mods aren't d!cking around just for their sick pleasure, they're here to maintain a civil environment. Debate, even lively debate, is encouraged. But when threads sink to the level of the "Death of Debate" thread, there's no point in keeping it open anymore.

If I was a mod, I would have done the same thing. As I said in a PM to matthew yesterday, I am grateful for what the mods do in these forums and respect their decisions.

[matthew]

Thank you all for your feedback. If anyone feels that something was done that went against the forums code of conduct, please post in the Resolution Center. If you just needed to blow off a bit of steam, that's fine too.

In honor of the thread topic, and since there hasn't been any new input here for over an hour, I'll go ahead and lock this thread.





Just kidding.
(See, we do have a sense of humor.)

[aysiu]

Mods are human. We sometimes make mistakes. I can say that moderators here sometimes differ on how they handle things. We do consult one another about gray areas, and we do sometimes screw up. There have been cases where we've closed threads we later decide to reopen.

We also try to use our best judgment. We are not on power trips. We are not part of some conspiracy to make your life miserable. We just want the Ubuntu Forums to be civil and friendly place.

Even the supposedly "mod-free" forum ended up having rules and enforcing them.

If you sign up for a forum, you have to play by that forum's rules. If you don't like the rules, you can ask nicely to have them changed. If that doesn't work, you can visit another forum that's a bit more lax on locking things.

[Technoviking]

Also have 10 pages of a couple people making the same points over and over again is a waste of resources, both in computer cpu cycles and disk space and peoples time.

When a mods closes a thread it is never to "smite" someone or show power over forums, it is always to protect the forums and make it a civil place to receive technical support for Ubuntu Linux, our main mission. As Ayisu said, the mods are human (other than Matthew, I'm pretty sure he is a cyborg :)), and mistakes will be made. The only thing we can do is try to communicate with each other to improve the Ubuntu Forums.

[matthew]

(other than Matthew, I'm pretty sure he is a cyborg :))I am Forrest Gump of Borg. Futile is as futile does. Assimilation is like a box of chocolates.

[NilsE]

Being a mod on a couple of other forums I understand and respect the frustration and time it consumes for the mods to make sure there is no level of "flaming" or "politically incorrect" posting.

One thing I love about this forum is the wealth of information and support I get on Ubuntu and for that matter just Linux in general.

What I don't like about this forum is the amount of unrelated posts I have to wade through to get to the useful stuff when I do a search on new posts.

As much as I enjoy and support free speech, this is not a free speech forum it is a Ubuntu forum and I wish the mods would lock more threads. Actually, remove is better.

I guess all I am saying is that if I want Ubuntu I will come here. If I want politics, jokes, etc. I will go to forums specific to that content.

Well, maybe I can back down on the jokes part since there are a lot of good jokes to be had about our one common interest in this forum.

"How many programmers does it take to change a light bulb? -- None, that's hardware" I know, lame old joke so don't flame me OK.

[ubuntu-geek]

Being a mod on a couple of other forums I understand and respect the frustration and time it consumes for the mods to make sure there is no level of "flaming" or "politically incorrect" posting.

One thing I love about this forum is the wealth of information and support I get on Ubuntu and for that matter just Linux in general.

What I don't like about this forum is the amount of unrelated posts I have to wade through to get to the useful stuff when I do a search on new posts.

As much as I enjoy and support free speech, this is not a free speech forum it is a Ubuntu forum and I wish the mods would lock more threads. Actually, remove is better.

I guess all I am saying is that if I want Ubuntu I will come here. If I want politics, jokes, etc. I will go to forums specific to that content.

Well, maybe I can back down on the jokes part since there are a lot of good jokes to be had about our one common interest in this forum.

"How many programmers does it take to change a light bulb? -- None, that's hardware" I know, lame old joke so don't flame me OK.
Thats the most intelligent post I have seen in awhile. We tried to make it a ubuntu only forum way back in the day but the fan boys and girls cried. :(

[NilsE]

Thats the most intelligent post I have seen in awhile. We tried to make it a ubuntu only forum way back in the day but the fan boys and girls cried. :(

It is a difficult mix and I am always on the fence between "all technical forum" and some community but the mix is very difficult to manage. If the community part can be kept to off topic discussions somewhat related to the main topic it can be a "Win - Win" situation.

[matthew]

It is a difficult mix and I am always on the fence between "all technical forum" and some community but the mix is very difficult to manage. If the community part can be kept to off topic discussions somewhat related to the main topic it can be a "Win - Win" situation.Agreed.

Hey, quick off-topic question or two. I looked at the site in your sig--very nice! Do you mind if I make some copies of your chord/scale charts for my occasional, informal guitar students? (That would include putting them on my server, with a very discreet link, for them to download.) I have some I made up a few years ago, but yours are nicer. They would just be for personal use, and would be given away, not sold or anything. I just give lessons to friends from time to time for fun, not for money.

EDIT: here is what I currently use. Feel free to copy it as you like. I really need to make a pdf/jpg version, but life keeps interrupting and I forget. This is an old pre-Linux days creation that I originally made using MS Publisher and converted to html...the code is really ugly and messy. *link to terrible html page removed*

EDIT2: I looked again at the page source for that...it was so ugly it was humiliating. Here...have a png and jpg version.
http://matthewhelmke.com/chord-scale-chart.png
http://matthewhelmke.com/chord-scale-chart.jpg

Also, do you have any personal connection to guitarnoise.com, or do you just have links to them from your site because you like them?

[NilsE]

Agreed.

Hey, quick off-topic question or two. I looked at the site in your sig--very nice! Do you mind if I make some copies of your chord/scale charts for my occasional, informal guitar students? (That would include putting them on my server, with a very discreet link, for them to download.) I have some I made up a few years ago, but yours are nicer. They would just be for personal use, and would be given away, not sold or anything. I just give lessons to friends from time to time for fun, not for money.

EDIT: here is what I currently use. Feel free to copy it as you like. I really need to make a pdf/jpg version, but life keeps interrupting and I forget. This is an old pre-Linux days creation that I originally made using MS Publisher and converted to html...the code is really ugly and messy.
http://matthewhelmke.com/chord-scale-chart.htm

Also, do you have any personal connection to guitarnoise.com, or do you just have links to them from your site because you like them?
You can use anything off my site you like. Free for the taking OSM (open source music). I recreated everything on there myself so I would never get accused of copyright infringement and have no intention of ever doing it with the stuff on my site. I actually created that site in hopes of answering many of the repeated questions on GN.

Thanks for the link to your stuff since I like to collect things.

I guess you could call it a personal connection to guitarnoise.com It is one of the sites I am a mod on.

[matthew]

You can use anything off my site you like. Free for the taking OSM (open source music). I recreated everything on there myself so I would never get accused of copyright infringement and have no intention of ever doing it with the stuff on my site. I actually created that site in hopes of answering many of the repeated questions on GN.Heh...that's exactly what I thought when I made mine.

Thanks for the link to your stuff since I like to collect things.
You're welcome. You can feel free to remove my name from the page if you want...I'll call this one "public domain."

I guess you could call it a personal connection to guitarnoise.com It is one of the sites I am a mod on.Cool. Maybe I'll go sign up for an account. What's your username over there?

[NilsE]

Cool. Maybe I'll go sign up for an account. What's your username over there?

Just plain Nils. Added the E here because Nils was already taken.

[Nano Geek]

Let's keep this on topic people or we might have to lock it. :)

[Motoxrdude]

Here is a request to the mods (KiwiNZ, ignore this, you'll take offense).

It's annoying when threads get closed just because you guys (mods) feel like it... I take time to type up a response to something and poof, "this thread is closed". Yes, I know; This doesn't happen all the time (two recently: death of debate a few minutes ago and freedom poll before that), but this is just one of my pet peeves.

It's pretty much like if you were in a heated discussion with a couple of people and then some random person who wasn't in the debate stops it just for the sake of it.

The moral (similar to the request) of this short post is that messing around with debates is bad :)

Dude, relax. The mods here are really laxed about locking threads. IMO they should be locking more threads.

[mips]

Thats the most intelligent post I have seen in awhile. We tried to make it a ubuntu only forum way back in the day but the fan boys and girls cried. :(

We all know you are very keen to do a way with some of the sub forums under community discussions. Why don't you just do away with it and direct people to your social discussions forum you spammed us with a while back.

Oh cry me a river..

For such a short reply this actually says a lot.

[KiwiNZ]

We all know you are very keen to do a way with some of the sub forums under community discussions. Why don't you just do away with it and direct people to your social discussions forum you spammed us with a while back.
.

What and give the 0.00001% of the members who's only contribution is to moan winge and flame in the backyard more opportunity to winge moan and cripe...... hmmmm I think its better to save our bandwidth.

[mips]

What and give the 0.00001% of the members who's only contribution is to moan winge and flame in the backyard more opportunity to winge moan and cripe...... hmmmm I think its better to save our bandwidth.

Well if you do away with it we will have no more opportunity to moan and gripe. Case closed and you guys will have your utopia.

I'm sorry that you see me as a moaner and winger, I always thought I made a bit of a contribution to the forums and maybe others thought the same.

C'est la vie...

[KiwiNZ]

Well if you do away with it we will have no more opportunity to moan and gripe. Case closed and you guys will have your utopia.

I'm sorry that you see me as a moaner and winger, I always thought I made a bit of a contribution to the forums and maybe others thought the same.

C'est la vie...

My reply was in reply to your post , I made no mention of names. I did not include you as an example . I merely replied to your suggestion.

[RAV TUX]

Being a mod on a couple of other forums....




NilsE I enjoyed the "lightbulb" joke. :)

[NilsE]

NilsE I enjoyed the "lightbulb" joke. :)
Thanks.. It's the only clean joke I know :lolflag:

There is the one about a car load of IBM'ers reactions when they got a flat tire.

The Client Executive said: Shuuush, don't tell anyone there is a problem.

The Marketing Manager said: Hang on, maybe we can sell them a solution.

The Field Engineer said, lets order all the parts we might need, call in systems engineering and bill the client.

The System Engineer just changed all the tires one at a time until he found the flat one and soon they were back on the road again.

[bigboy_pdb]

What I don't like about this forum is the amount of unrelated posts I have to wade through to get to the useful stuff when I do a search on new posts.
...
I guess all I am saying is that if I want Ubuntu I will come here. If I want politics, jokes, etc. I will go to forums specific to that content.


If you open the "Control Panel" and you go to "Edit Options", which is in the "Settings & Options" section of the menu, under the "Miscellaneous Options" section there is a frame entitled "Forums To Exclude From View". You can remove the sections that you don't want to see there.

I agree that the number of posts that are not related to Ubuntu in the "New Posts" section (when forums aren't excluded) is far too great. I'm guessing that a number of people won't think to look for something that filters threads in their "control panel" because they'd expect it to be on the "New Posts" page.

I also agree that people who want to talk about things that aren't related to Ubuntu (or computers or operating systems) can easily talk about them elsewhere.

At this point I'm sure that a number of people would get angry if the forums that aren't related to Ubuntu were to be removed. I think that content that is unrelated to Ubuntu (such as the "community cafe") should be within a subdomain (i.e. "general.ubuntuforums.org" or "unrelated.ubuntuforums.org"). I don't think that "the backyard" should even exist, but that could be put into a subdomain with a disclaimer (i.e. "backyard.ubuntuforums.org").

The reason that I think the backyard should be removed is because it is filled with illogical discussions, statements that either lack references or have poor sources, prejudiced statements, and irrational comments. It is likely that derogatory comments that are found on Ubuntu forums may be affiliated with the Ubuntu Community. Affiliation with a group based on an individual occurs frequently. For example, most people affiliate Christianity with evangelists. They map this view onto Christians in general and make all sorts of assumptions, such as, Christians are illogical, they only use biblical arguments, they don't believe in science, they don't believe in evolution, and so forth. A good example of this sort of prejudice is as follows:

[Religion is] a business today. Nothing more, nothing less. It's about tax exemption, and getting away with molesting children.


http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=531294#postmenu_3035938

When someone tells me that they want to try Ubuntu, I refer them to two sites, and they are "ubuntu.com" and "ubuntuforums.org". I wanted to start up a series of Church organizations where I would teach people about logic, arguments, critical thought, mathematics, computers, and computer science, and I want to suggest that they visit the two sites (and download Ubuntu). When they visit the first site, they'd be greeted by images of people that are together and messages such as the quote following this paragraph (*). However, if a person registers and goes into the backyard, he/she will see some messages that are similar to the quote before this paragraph.

(*)
Ubuntu is an African concept of 'humanity towards others'. It is 'the belief in a universal bond of sharing that connects all humanity'. The same ideas are central to the way the Ubuntu community collaborates. Members of the Ubuntu community need to work together effectively


http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct

NOTE: I'm hoping that since a number of people from the forum staff have posted here that my suggestions about subdomains (and separating content related to Ubuntu from other content) will be read (and taken seriously).


My ultimate point is that if the point of these forums are to give the users a place to talk about things that they want to talk about then thread locking is bad, because that only stops people from talking about things that they want to talk about. If no one wanted to talk about a certain thing then no one would. But if the point of these forums isn't that, then I don't know what to say.


That's not what the forums are about. The following quote explains the point of the forums:


The Unofficial Ubuntu Linux forum (ubuntuforums.org) was created to fill a niche in the Ubuntu Linux Community. New and Current Ubuntu users who do not wish to receive large amounts of email from the mailing lists can benefit from this resource. There is a special forum that grabs posts from the Official Ubuntu Users mailing list allowing complete interaction.


http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2

[bigboy_pdb]

I forgot to mention another example of how people's negative comments can discourage potential Ubuntu users from wanting to join this community (and using Ubuntu). A number of people make derogatory remarks about Windows users. Most of these people are the people that are going to be switching to Ubuntu. If a person that is representing a group/organization were to make a series of negative generalized comments that apply to you and then tell you to join his/her group/organization, you're less likely to join than if the person had been positive and respectful.

I'd say these are very important issues. I see people talking about things like changing the aesthetics of Ubuntu (such as the default colour from brown to blue) in order to attract people. If Ubuntu users are complaining about how a simple colour can deter users, think about how some people's attitudes within the forums can affect them.

[bigboy_pdb]

Sorry for these additional posts. I'm not trying to bump this thread. I was up all night working on some things. I realized that something I mentioned isn't clear.

I mentioned that there should be different subdomains for "the backyard" section, Ubuntu, OS, & computer related sections, and general sections (such as the "community cafe"). I didn't mention that I thought that they should set up like separate websites. The concept is that when a person registers he/she would have one login for the 3 sections, but each section should be its own set of forums that is like its own website (with its own layout and so forth). The only connection between the 3 sections should be a set of links or URLs which are separate from all the other links so that they are not confused with them.

For people who like "the backyard", one advantage to separating it from the other forums would be that it can be divided into different forums (such as religion, politics, and so forth). This might actually help to draw more people Ubuntu forums because new members who don't like it will be separated from it and new members who only want to talk about those issues will have a set of forums where the more controversial topics will be categorized. If a person wants to use other forums, his/her account will permit it.

Splitting the site into 3 separate forums would allow the moderators to be able to decide which sections they want to moderate (in a manner that's clear). So in other words people who don't like moderating "the backyard" can leave it to people who use "the backyard".


I know that the main reason why some people visit Ubuntu forums is for using the non-help sections so I thought it might be good to mention the following. I've never asked for help on the forums and the only reason why I signed up for the forums is to help people with their problems. Also, this is the first and only forum that I've ever signed up for.