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ankursethi
June 22nd, 2007, 08:18 AM
Many of us here (or should I say most of us?) use the GNOME version of Ubuntu. GNOME is simple, looks elegant and, allegedly, gives better performance than KDE. It's philosophy of simplicity and the UNIX way of "one tool for one task" (no "Swiss army knives") has taken it quite far. But I think everybody here will agree that the GNOME project is not so open to new features, for which I don't blame them as adding bloat will violate their philosophy. But, even as a long time GNOME user, I believe that the future looks bleak for this DE as other projects catch up with it.

KDE4 has bee getting a lot of attention, and everybody is looking forward to it - even those who use GNOME. This new iteration actually removes several inconsistencies and adds features that are useful. Just this morning I read an article on Linux.com about the new Plasma framework (http://www.linux.com/feature/114560). Other noteworthy features are the Kross (http://kross.dipe.org/) scripting engine which will be available in most applications (including KOffice) and built in desktop and metadata search through Strigi, giving us a more "semantic" desktop.

The fact that KDE4 uses the new QT4 toolkit needs no mention. Also obvious are the numerous improvements to the UI, plus the Nautilus-inspired file manager Dolphin. According to rumours, we might also see Apple's WebKit (an improved (?) version of KHTML) making it as the default rendering engine in Konqueror. Compositing support will also be improved.

The GNOME2 and KDE3 series gave us desktops that could compete head-to-head with the Windows desktop, but the new KDE4 blows the new "improved" Vista interface right out of the water,

Some people might argue about GNOME being "lighter". I don't know how valid this argument is (I notice no difference in speeds) but for those who need something light, there's XFCE. XFCE, as it ships with Xubuntu, looks extremely nice right out of the box. The Thunar file manager is faster and, at lest in my opinion, much superior to Nautilus. XFCE offers pretty much all the functionality one can expect from a "light" DE, and more. I would go as far as to suggest that XFCE can very well replace GNOME as a DE. For those who want an even lighter system, we have Fluxbox, FVWM, Ion, Rox etc.

So here we have GNOME, the DE which, thanks to Ubuntu, had a seemingly large share of the Linux desktop, and expects to have 10% of the total desktop market share. It doesn't have the features of KDE4, neither is it as light as XFCE. The interface, compared to the KDE and XFCE interfaces, looks like a mutated cross between the Win95 and MacOSX desktop, only with bad icons and worse fonts. It does what it was built for nicely, but refuses to add new features to make the desktop experience fresher. It's seemingly stuck in the past, and any efforts to bring it up to the current standards are met with strong disapproval from the GNOME developers and long time users.

The question, then, is this : Will the release of KDE4 and it's wide adoption, which seems quite inevitable, make GNOME irrelevant? Or will it live on in some niche areas for several years before somebody decided to fork it and bring it into the 21st century?

I know I'll be switching to KDE4 the day it's released, even though I have so far supported GNOME on the forums as well as in real life. What about you?

Lord Illidan
June 22nd, 2007, 08:21 AM
Nope. Gnome diehards and zealots will continue to release Gnome, and gnome devs will eventually release another version to compete with KDE 4..wasting energy in recreating the wheel, but hey, anything to compete with KDE.

raul_
June 22nd, 2007, 08:46 AM
Oh don't mind me, i'm just waiting for the zealots and for the merging :popcorn:

IMHO KDE already kills Gnome in many aspects, although I love every single linux DE out there :)

deepclutch
June 22nd, 2007, 08:57 AM
GNOME must survive! :x I Loves GNOME interface.I can live with Kde,if they port it into gtk2 and remove everything that starts with "K".

nocturn
June 22nd, 2007, 09:49 AM
I like Gnome very much, but there should have been work done on 3.0 a long time now.
The 2.X series was ahead of the game, but it's getting a bit old.

wieman01
June 22nd, 2007, 10:02 AM
In my opinion competition is good for both KDE and Gnome which will keep both teams on their toes... Seriously I think this sort of friendly competition serves a purpose. So I am glad Gnome and KDE co-exist the way they do although I prefer KDE personally.

nocturn
June 22nd, 2007, 10:04 AM
In my opinion competition is good for both KDE and Gnome which will keep both teams on their toes... Seriously I think this sort of friendly competition serves a purpose. So I am glad Gnome and KDE co-exist the way they do although I prefer KDE personally.

I agree, hopefully KDE4 pushes Gnome to really start 3.0!

bailout
June 22nd, 2007, 10:13 AM
I certainly don't think kde4 is going to kill gnome, more likely that Mark's preference for gnome will kill kde. A few years ago I saw a post on the Opera forums (DE independent) asking which de people used and the result was overwhelmingly kde. I suspect if the same poll was done today the results would be reversed. Mark's decision to make ubuntu gnome based has pushed a lot of noobs onto gnome. Plus the move of some other distros into the corporate market instead of the enthusiast market has pushed them to gnome as well.

At the moment kde still has much better apps but I suspect gtk apps will start to attract more developers as more people use gnome.

ankursethi
June 22nd, 2007, 11:06 AM
Well, GTK# is becoming quite attractive, and I assume once Mono becomes a recognized platform for software development it will take hold in the enterprise. The fact still remains that KDE4 is going to be better than GNOME, which will probably spur competition and make the GNOME devs start working on GNOME 3, but that's quite another story.

The question was whether current GNOME users will switch to KDE4 or stick with GNOME?

ComplexNumber
June 22nd, 2007, 01:07 PM
will kde 4 kill gnome? extremely doubtful. for example, the main future of linux mobiles and most others is already gnome, as nokia et al are fully behind gnome and the MLI(Mobile Linux Initiative, who have chosen gnome as the platform of choice on account of the licence and other factors). even trolltech is a member (don't know why, though, because they are effectively supporting gnome). gnome will continue to be the preferred platform for developers on the desktop until trolltech change their licence.

a more relevant questions is: will kde 4 kill kde? it's amazing how damaging overhyping a product can be to how well that product does.

ThinkBuntu
June 22nd, 2007, 01:16 PM
KDE's been losing significant ground to GNOME lately in usage, and in spite of KDE 4's vaunted changes, I expect this trend to continue. As long as Ubuntu, Fedora, and Debian, not to mention many others, choose GNOME as the default desktop, it will continue to thrive.

Me, personally? I'm only excited for two features of KDE 4: The Dolphin file manager and the upcoming column view feature. I found it to be a pain using Konqueror for everyday, menial tasks because it behaves like an application. Ctrl+Q is required to close the window, but if I map Ctrl+W to it, suddenly Konqueror becomes awkward to use as a browser. Also, I expect a file manager to open instantly, as does Thunar and Nautilus. While I've nearly achieved that in the past when running Arch, or KDE over Debian, those are the exception to the rule for those of us without the absolute latest hardware: and this is coming from a desktop that launches OOo in 3-7 seconds, depending on the distro. However, for more demanding tasks, Konqueror will still be available as a file manager. And choice is good!

As I mentioned, I'm very excited for the column view. In Mac OS X, coming from OS 9.2, my favorite feature was not the dock, not the new look, but the column view for navigating files. This is a major boon for productivity, especially if it features a preview pane. For those who haven't used OS X's column view, if I land on, say, an image, the right-most pane displays a preview of it. For all files it shows all relevant file information. The great thing about column view is it allows rapid file manipulation and navigation with only a keyboard.

machoo02
June 22nd, 2007, 01:36 PM
Mark's preference for gnome will kill kde.
I'm pretty sure that Mark prefers KDE (http://dot.kde.org/1160932072/) over GNOME (http://www.kubuntu.org/announcements/kde-commitment.php).
Ubuntu founder Mark Shuttleworth announced that he was now using Kubuntu on his desktop machine and said he wanted Kubuntu to move to a first class distribution within the Ubuntu community.

GeneralZod
June 22nd, 2007, 01:37 PM
Some people might argue about GNOME being "lighter". I don't know how valid this argument is (I notice no difference in speeds) but for those who need something light, there's XFCE


There's practically no difference in resource consumption between KDE and GNOME; see e.g.

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=2015680#post2015680


I certainly don't think kde4 is going to kill gnome, more likely that Mark's preference for gnome will kill kde. A few years ago I saw a post on the Opera forums (DE independent) asking which de people used and the result was overwhelmingly kde. I suspect if the same poll was done today the results would be reversed.

I thought this too, but again, a poll by the (as far as I'm aware) DE-neutral LinuxQuestions.org still has KDE as the majority:

http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/showthread.php?t=514945

Not just home users, either: A report on software usage in the European government gives a similar ratio of KDE to GNOME users (p.29):

http://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/ict/policy/doc/2006-11-20-flossimpact.pdf

Frankly, I'd say that whatever damage to KDE as a result of the Major League distros championing GNOME over KDE has already been done, and the damage is surprisingly slight. And KDE development shows absolutely no signs of slowing down: it's still averaging approximately 300 commits per day (http://cia.vc/) (site is currently down).


At the moment kde still has much better apps but I suspect gtk apps will start to attract more developers as more people use gnome.

A large part of the reason for KDE's great apps is that they are built on the technically excellent, comprehensive and very well designed Qt/ kdelibs. It's not just a question of manpower and again, the swing to GNOME is simply not as pronounced as people would think.


Having said that, I don't see either killing off the other, because the Linux desktop itself has massive amounts of room to grow: we are absolutely nowhere near being involved in a zero-sum game, and I'd venture that both GNOME and KDE are growing continually in terms of userbase. Even if one grows faster than the other, it still doesn't matter: they'll both continue to grow with no sign of some kind of crippling, mass exodus of developers/ users in sight.


I'm pretty sure that Mark prefers KDE over GNOME (http://dot.kde.org/1160932072/).

No chance at all :) It's very generous of him to sponsor KDE, but he has always been very open about the fact that he prefers GNOME.

TheRLG
June 22nd, 2007, 01:42 PM
Right now, I definitely prefer Gnome, but after seeing what they're doing with KDE4, I think I might end up switching. More than just pretty interfaces, KDE4 seems to have a very strong skeleton and backbone, but I too wish they would stop naming things with a "K" prefixed :p WebKit might be interesting though...

Dragonbite
June 22nd, 2007, 02:39 PM
...
So here we have GNOME, the DE which, thanks to Ubuntu, ...Gnome has been a very successful DE before Ubuntu came around.

RedHat has defaults to Gnome including Fedora and many derivitives

SuSE used to not offer Gnome as an option (if my memory serves me right) until it was bought by Novell, who also bought Ximian and acquired Miquel de Icaza, one of the founders of Gnome and Mono. Mono is more integrated with the GTK+ toolkit and so blends easier with Gnome so SuSE had to start offering Gnome too.

I've liked KDE, but as cool as it looks and integrated, it has always looked a bit "clunky" to me. Maybe it's too much attention to making buttons look rounded? I dunno. I will say, though, looking at Kubuntu I see KDE looking much cleaner than before.

I'm on the fence of which one I like better at any particular time.

frodon
June 22nd, 2007, 02:46 PM
I don't think so, there's always new releases for everything everyday with people wondering if the new release of a software X will kill Y, that's the common life of software development.

So my answer is nothing will change people will still love KDE and GNOME for the same reasons than before, they are both different Desktop environment approach and thus fit the different needs of different people.

Does my post make sense ?

Happy_Man
June 22nd, 2007, 02:52 PM
IMO, the question is not IF KDE will kill GNOME, but WHEN. I am, was, and always will be a diehard KDE user. The only reason I'm on GNOME is so that I can test out Compiz Fusion. As soon as I am assured it works, it's back off to KDE for me! GNOME is ugly and wastes screen space. With Kicker, I can just shrink it to nothing, or maybe even hide it, with no real loss of productivity. Not so in GNOME. At least for me. YMMV. In general, though, KDE is just more polished, and with stuff like Plasma coming out, I don't think even us Ubuntuians can resist the shiny. Unless you don't like shiny. We here respect that. That's why wer're going to put you in this room here. By yourself. :lolflag:

Miguel
June 22nd, 2007, 02:53 PM
Even if Gnome were to die today, it would have been successful. Why? Simple, because Qt is FLOSS. There used to be a time when Qt was proprietary, and the need of a fully free desktop pushed Gnome. Finally, Trolltech liberated Qt to compete with Gnome, so we can say that Gnome has already been successful.

So, the question is: Will KDE 4 kill gnome? No. As long as there are devs putting code into it, gnome is alive. However, don't expect gnome 3.0 anytime soon. Gnome 3.0 will arrive when the things that need to be done are severely hindered by GTk 2. The existence of gnome 3 implies the existence of GTk 3 (and broken backwards compatibility). This isn't so much of a drawback. Just load Hoary, and see how much gnome has changed since then. It's absolutely amazing. Competition? I say bring it on!

PS: On the other hand, some concerns have been raised on the mainteinability of GTk 2, which is supposedly less than ideal right now.

Ex-Cyber
June 22nd, 2007, 02:58 PM
KDE and GNOME are not direct competitors because they follow different design philosophies and generally satisfy different types of users. KDE4 can only "kill GNOME" if it does a better job of catering to GNOME users than GNOME does, which is possible in principle but seems unlikely.

kripkenstein
June 22nd, 2007, 02:58 PM
I know I'll be switching to KDE4 the day it's released, even though I have so far supported GNOME on the forums as well as in real life.

How can you know that? Perhaps KDE4 will be extremely bug-ridden or have compatibility issues with apps that you like (apps not among the code KDE apps)?

KDE4 is a big project, rewriting a LOT of code. It could work out great - in which case I will consider switching from GNOME. Or, it could fail catastrophically - remember, Vista was also a huge rewrite of an OS, and look what happened there (multiple delays, dropped features, a lackluster final offering).

So I don't see how anyone can decide at this point in time whether to switch to KDE4.

What we can ask is if people will give KDE4 a chance. Some GNOME fans might not, no matter how good it is. I, personally, like GNOME, but I'll try out KDE4, and see how the final result is.

P_Badger
June 22nd, 2007, 03:01 PM
I'm a gnome user, but if KDE 4 is half as decent as they're making it out to be, I'll be switching over quite happily. More than half the Linux apps I use are kde based, and the gnome dev attitude I find extremely deplorable. The only reason I don't use KDE 3 is because I honestly find it rather "clunky", (but I'm sure that'll be improved by 4).

ThinkBuntu
June 22nd, 2007, 03:05 PM
GNOME's more likely to be crushed by Xfce unless it lightens its resource use. Users with the resources will use KDE4 if it meets expectations, and everyone else will use Xfce once it adds a few key features and becomes a little more usable.

fuscia
June 22nd, 2007, 03:08 PM
It's philosophy of simplicity and the UNIX way of "one tool for one task" (no "Swiss army knives") has taken it quite far.

i've never figured out which one task it is that nautilus does. is it file manager, a setter of wallpaper, a cd burning app, or could it even be a dessert topping? it doesn't matter, openbox will rise up and crush them all.

aaronthebear
June 22nd, 2007, 03:09 PM
I dont think it will. I agree that for customization and that stuff it is much better but for clean looks, and ease of use gnome wins hands down. Some things i don't like in KDE are:
- Constant use of "K" at the start of every blooming program.
- Messy looking menus, toolbars. Way too many buttons lol.

But i dunno, new users to linux will find gnome more approachable - KDE was like "wtf?" to me when i first used it. But its more a personal preference i think.

juxtaposed
June 22nd, 2007, 03:18 PM
I'm pretty sure that Mark prefers KDE over GNOME.

There was an interview with him that said he used Ubuntu and Kubuntu, one on the desktop other on the laptop. And he had a PPC mac...

But that's not a big deal; the point is that ubuntu is gnome.


I thought this too, but again, a poll by the (as far as I'm aware) DE-neutral LinuxQuestions.org still has KDE as the majority:

http://www.linuxquestions.org/questi...d.php?t=514945

Not just home users, either: A report on software usage in the European government gives a similar ratio of KDE to GNOME users (p.29):

http://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/ict/p...lossimpact.pdf

Frankly, I'd say that whatever damage to KDE as a result of the Major League distros championing GNOME over KDE has already been done, and the damage is surprisingly slight. And KDE development shows absolutely no signs of slowing down: it's still averaging approximately 300 commits per day (site is currently down).

Every poll i've seen that was on a forum that wasn't focused on any DE had KDE a definite majority.


KDE is just more polished,

I absolutly hate the very whitesh colour of the programs on KDE. The beigish clearlooks beats all, except aqua is close. And gnome seems to handle better with themes and such. And the K thing.

But everything other then then that, KDE is great. I use it sometimes.

Ultra Magnus
June 22nd, 2007, 03:23 PM
Personally I prefer the look of gnome to KDE, and I don't think I could deal with the endless number of apps beginning with "k", but kde4 does look good - Plasma looks very interesting. I like the simplicity of gnome but it could do with a makeover.

racoq
June 22nd, 2007, 03:23 PM
GNOME is ugly and wastes screen space. With Kicker, I can just shrink it to nothing, or maybe even hide it

lol, are u comparing a big and ugly default taskbar with a small taskbar for appications that gnome uses?
You must be kidding right :D?
And who said that you couldn't hide gnomes bar, or even adjust its size?



GNOME's more likely to be crushed by Xfce unless it lightens its resource use. Users with the resources will use KDE4 if it meets expectations, and everyone else will use Xfce once it adds a few key features and becomes a little more usable.

As much i like XFCE it will never crush gnome, because two points

- It is not as full featured in some points as Gnome
- XFCE uses gnome infrastructure, so you can say that XFCE = Gnome, or XFCE is a lighter gnome. So much of XFCE innovation resides in gnome.The only difference is Xfmm window manager, as gnome uses metacity

ThinkBuntu
June 22nd, 2007, 03:28 PM
lol, are u comparing a big and ugly default taskbar with a small taskbar for appications that gnome uses?
You must be kidding right :D?
And who said that you couldn't hide gnomes bar, or even adjust its size?




As much i like XFCE it will never crush gnome, because two points

- It is not as full featured in some points as Gnome
- XFCE uses gnome infrastructure, so you can say that XFCE = Gnome, or XFCE is a lighter gnome. So much of XFCE innovation resides in gnome.The only difference is Xfmm window manager, as gnome uses metacity
Thunar has potential.

racoq
June 22nd, 2007, 03:44 PM
Thunar has potential.

True, forgot about that.

Also i think that KDE, was kicked toward version 4, because Gnome in terms of interface, (usability an simplicity), was way ahead. KDE 4 was pushed by gnome 2. And thank god that happened as it is the end of that horrible Kicker.


This always happened through Gnome and KDE history, and it is a healthy competion. It just make the 2 DE better in time.

Hopefully,KDE 4 release, push the gnome Devs to start thinking in gnome 3.

Erunno
June 22nd, 2007, 03:48 PM
Also i think that KDE, was kicked toward version 4, because Gnome in terms of interface, (usability an simplicity), was way ahead. KDE 4 was pushed by gnome 2. And thank god that happened as it is the end of that horrible Kicker.

More likely it was the switch from Qt 3 to Qt 4 which opened up an opportunity for a major API rewrite.

Sunflower1970
June 22nd, 2007, 04:04 PM
I love Gnome...but have been keeping my eye on the progress KDE4 and like what I see....I'll gladly try it...and if I do like it I'll switch...

init1
June 22nd, 2007, 04:19 PM
KDE with QT? I thought KDE had its one TK, why would they want QT? QT is minimal, right? Why are all of my sentences questions?

Happy_Man
June 22nd, 2007, 04:35 PM
KDE with QT? I thought KDE had its one TK, why would they want QT? QT is minimal, right? Why are all of my sentences questions?
No, KDE uses the QT toolkit. It doesn't "come with it," it's "built off it."

raul_
June 22nd, 2007, 04:36 PM
KDE with QT? I thought KDE had its one TK, why would they want QT? QT is minimal, right? Why are all of my sentences questions?

KDE with TK? that would be horrible...TK is the toolkit of aMsn for example, and it's hideous

fyllekajan
June 22nd, 2007, 04:45 PM
Don't you think KDE4 is a bit over-hyped, as it has been for the last years. :)

DigitalDuality
June 22nd, 2007, 04:54 PM
There's practically no difference in resource consumption between KDE and GNOME; see e.g.

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=2015680#post2015680

.

Wrong:

http://ktown.kde.org/~seli/memory/desktop_benchmark.html

racoq
June 22nd, 2007, 05:05 PM
Wrong:

http://ktown.kde.org/~seli/memory/desktop_benchmark.html

lol, a benchmark made by a KDE developer, its not an independent source for reliability

plb
June 22nd, 2007, 05:05 PM
GNOME won't die. Will it lose users? Perhaps. Remember this is 4th major version number change for KDE while GNOME is still at 2...and it's still alive and doing just fine. That said, I'm eagerly anticipating KDE4 :D

Dragonbite
June 22nd, 2007, 05:12 PM
I don't think any of them will really "die", there seems to be a lot of following for both and people change! A friend of mine was a Gnome user but recently has moved to KDE. I've been a Gnome/Xfce but also look at KDE once in a while.

People will come, and people will go. Now if KDE becomes more popular than Gnome, it will be interesting to see the effects of that. If Xfce gets more popular than both then THAT would change the landscape.

At the end of the day, when you log on to check your email one last time for the day, the desktop that greets you is yours.

GeneralZod
June 22nd, 2007, 05:23 PM
lol, a benchmark made by a KDE developer, its not an independent source for reliability

Attack the numbers and methodology, please, not the man who presents them :)

Also, since you put so much stock in provenance, if you check out the post I linked you'll see that the GNOME guys did their own experiment and found that KDE and GNOME use practically the same amount of RAM.

a12ctic
June 22nd, 2007, 05:29 PM
I don't know, I've been using linux sense mid 2000, and I've almost always used gnome, KTD always feels really sloppy and overdone for my liking.

DigitalDuality
June 22nd, 2007, 06:10 PM
i haven't gone all out and conducted my own study...but i will say this.

In terms of boot time... Suse is the worst. In terms of application install time.. ubuntu/debian is the best. Suse the worst, fedora in the middle. (granted.. i've only used pc-bsd, ubuntu/kubuntu, fedora, and suse).

On all distro's i've used kde and gnome. And on all distro's gnome seems to be far less responsive in how fast it opens applications, how much ram it uses, etc And every gtk based application i've used is far slower than qt alternatives. Hell.. i use gimp over krita any day, but look at the application time for each to start up. Compare koffice to gnumeric and such, same thing. Window drawing and the minimize drawing in gnome is horrible too. You have to use beryl just for it to look decent and respond faster.

And as for xfce, i think that whole interface is a joke and that team needs to go back to the drawing board. Sure, many applications coupled with it (well at least in xubuntu) are great memory savers, but the DE itself is only slightly better than gnome in terms of memory usage. Why would i want a crippled version of gnome that only uses slightly less memory?

ThinkBuntu
June 22nd, 2007, 06:16 PM
i haven't gone all out and conducted my own study...but i will say this.

In terms of boot time... Suse is the worst. In terms of application install time.. ubuntu/debian is the best. Suse the worst, fedora in the middle. (granted.. i've only used pc-bsd, ubuntu/kubuntu, fedora, and suse).

On all distro's i've used kde and gnome. And on all distro's gnome seems to be far less responsive in how fast it opens applications, how much ram it uses, etc And every gtk based application i've used is far slower than qt alternatives. Hell.. i use gimp over krita any day, but look at the application time for each to start up. Compare koffice to gnumeric and such, same thing. Window drawing and the minimize drawing in gnome is horrible too. You have to use beryl just for it to look decent and respond faster.

And as for xfce, i think that whole interface is a joke and that team needs to go back to the drawing board. Sure, many applications coupled with it (well at least in xubuntu) are great memory savers, but the DE itself is only slightly better than gnome in terms of memory usage. Why would i want a crippled version of gnome that only uses slightly less memory?

Gnumeric launches much faster than KSpread.
Abiword launches much faster than KWord
I've experienced the last two points in both KDE and GNOME
My GNOME desktop looks great without any garish Beryl themes
GIMP takes longer to load only because of its many plugins
Xfce uses far less memory and disk space than KDE or GNOME. This is simply not debatable

Erunno
June 22nd, 2007, 06:16 PM
In terms of boot time... Suse is the worst. In terms of application install time.. ubuntu/debian is the best. Suse the worst, fedora in the middle. (granted.. i've only used pc-bsd, ubuntu/kubuntu, fedora, and suse).

As an openSUSE user I feel inclined to say that, although your points about boot and installation time are correct, applications tends to start faster (at least faster than Kubuntu, my former distribution) and this makes the daily work far more pleasent as installations are ususally done only once.

vexorian
June 22nd, 2007, 06:23 PM
Yay desktop wars, yay



Many of us here (or should I say most of us?) use the GNOME version of Ubuntu. GNOME is simple, looks elegant and, allegedly, gives better performance than KDE. It's philosophy of simplicity and the UNIX way of "one tool for one task" (no "Swiss army knives") has taken it quite far. But I think everybody here will agree that the GNOME project is not so open to new features, for which I don't blame them as adding bloat will violate their philosophy. But, even as a long time GNOME user, I believe that the future looks bleak for this DE as other projects catch up with it.




KDE4 has bee getting a lot of attention,

true

and everybody is looking forward to it - even those who use GNOME
false.


This new iteration actually removes several inconsistencies and adds features that are useful. Just this morning I read an article on Linux.com about the new Plasma framework (http://www.linux.com/feature/114560). Other noteworthy features are the Kross (http://kross.dipe.org/) scripting engine which will be available in most applications (including KOffice) and built in desktop and metadata search through Strigi, giving us a more "semantic" desktop.

Nice features. Not sure if they are relevant when picking KDE4 over gnome but relevant when picking it over KDE3




The fact that KDE4 uses the new QT4 toolkit needs no mention. Also obvious are the numerous improvements to the UI, plus the Nautilus-inspired file manager Dolphin. According to rumours, we might also see Apple's WebKit (an improved (?) version of KHTML) making it as the default rendering engine in Konqueror. Compositing support will also be improved.


QT is qt, and not gtk, with all desktops using gtk most apps are gtk, yeah it is a bad thing but it is the reality, most apps look better on gnome.

Apple messing up sounds like a downside for me.




The GNOME2 and KDE3 series gave us desktops that could compete head-to-head with the Windows desktop, but the new KDE4 blows the new "improved" Vista interface right out of the water,

That's just a matter of default interfaces, which is not a big deal.



Some people might argue about GNOME being "lighter". I don't know how valid this argument is (I notice no difference in speeds) but for those who need something light, there's XFCE. XFCE, as it ships with Xubuntu, looks extremely nice right out of the box.


I want "lighter" things but not that light, there are always the guys that like the middle.


The Thunar file manager is faster and, at lest in my opinion, much superior to Nautilus. XFCE offers pretty much all the functionality one can expect from a "light" DE, and more. I would go as far as to suggest that XFCE can very well replace GNOME as a DE. For those who want an even lighter system, we have Fluxbox, FVWM, Ion, Rox etc.

I would comment if I actually used them, but does Thunar at least allow emblems?


So here we have GNOME, the DE which, thanks to Ubuntu, had a seemingly large share of the Linux desktop, and expects to have 10% of the total desktop market share. It doesn't have the features of KDE4, neither is it as light as XFCE. The interface, compared to the KDE and XFCE interfaces, looks like a mutated cross between the Win95 and MacOSX desktop, only with bad icons and worse fonts. It does what it was built for nicely, but refuses to add new features to make the desktop experience fresher. It's seemingly stuck in the past, and any efforts to bring it up to the current standards are met with strong disapproval from the GNOME developers and long time users.

Ubuntu brings gnome with nice interface and nice icons, Tango is also much better in my opinion (and I am sure I am not alone) than both crystal and oxygen.



The question, then, is this : Will the release of KDE4 and it's wide adoption, which seems quite inevitable,


I don't see it as inevitable, and certainly wide adoption on any DE is pretty much something that won't happen anytime soon.



make GNOME irrelevant? Or will it live on in some niche areas for several years before somebody decided to fork it and bring it into the 21st century?


It is already in the 21st century, sorry you don't notice it,



I know I'll be switching to KDE4 the day it's released, even though I have so far supported GNOME on the forums as well as in real life. What about you? If KDE sticked to freedesktop and used Tango I would switch back to KDE, but they moving on alone made me switch back to gnome for feisty.

--
Opinion is a mess and you can't expect everybody to move on, I personaly got disapointed after seeing this: http://www.oxygen-icons.org/?page_id=2 Anyone thinking the "latest revision" is an improvement over the first attempt is just wrong in my opinion....

ThinkBuntu
June 22nd, 2007, 06:27 PM
I would comment if I actually used them, but does Thunar at least allow emblems?
By emblems, you mean the little star and lock images you can affix to icons? Are these really that necessary? I find them, in any desktop, to be a pain the *** to apply.

racoq
June 22nd, 2007, 06:27 PM
Attack the numbers and methodology, please, not the man who presents them :)

Also, since you put so much stock in provenance, if you check out the post I linked you'll see that the GNOME guys did their own experiment and found that KDE and GNOME use practically the same amount of RAM.

I found your link more credible. I have tested both KDE and GNOME, and they're resource consume, are pretty much matched.

Just i don't agree with the, benkmark differences made by the kde developer.

Erik Trybom
June 22nd, 2007, 06:28 PM
Is there such a thing as a critical user mass? Will developers start to drop off if Gnome looses too much ground?

I don't think it works that way. Linux has always had a negligible market share compared to Windows, but Linux isn't dying as far as I know. Neither will Gnome, even if KDE is gaining market share.

What do you think?

Erunno
June 22nd, 2007, 06:35 PM
Opinion is a mess and you can't expect everybody to move on, I personaly got disapointed after seeing this: http://www.oxygen-icons.org/?page_id=2 Anyone thinking the "latest revision" is an improvement over the first attempt is just wrong in my opinion....

The site is outdated, folders for instance look different now. Here's a screencast (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2bloc_plasmaphaseThere) about Plasma. The quality is not the best but you can clearly see the icons on the left side of Dolphin. I'll try to find a better source if I'll be in the mood for it ;-)

vexorian
June 22nd, 2007, 06:53 PM
By emblems, you mean the little star and lock images you can affix to icons? Are these really that necessary? I find them, in any desktop, to be a pain the *** to apply.
you mean two guys got different ideas on how to organize a desktop correctly? I am shocked!

emblems are the most helpful thing for me, and KDE people don't seem too "open for ideas" in that regard, either way that's just me.

It is good that there will always be many desktop alternatives unlike windows or the Mac in which the one invented by the company is the absolute rule.


Here's a screencast about PlasmaWhy? why did they have to make folders look like trash cans?

bobbocanfly
June 22nd, 2007, 06:57 PM
I love GNOME. I love KDE. I love XFCE. Im going to keep using versions of all of them, even if they die and noone makes them anymore, unless someone forks them and makes a really cool one.

ankursethi
June 22nd, 2007, 06:58 PM
What I meant by my first post was, essentially, this : people get tired of seeing the same interface every day. KDE4 will give the desktop a fresh look, plus the Plasma and Kross will bring unlimited functionality to the DE right out of the box. I've always used GNOME, right from Fedora Core 3 to Ubuntu Feisty. I had to use KDE in Slackware, but I managed to get on well with it. GNOME looks better to me now, but KDE might look better in the future.

My intent was not starting a flamewar, but on discussing whether anybody here will switch to KDE4 and, if yes, what are the features that interest you the most?

23meg
June 22nd, 2007, 07:03 PM
The question, then, is this : Will the release of KDE4 and it's wide adoption, which seems quite inevitable, make GNOME irrelevant? Or will it live on in some niche areas for several years before somebody decided to fork it and bring it into the 21st century?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_many_questions
http://www.fallacyfiles.org/loadques.html

KDE4 won't kill GNOME (according to Captain Obvious (http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Captain_Obvious)); it will just kill a considerable part of the underinformed anti-GNOME rhetoric and superficial DE-choice polarization that, entirely out of coincidence, grew tenfold with the anti-GNOME outburst of Linus. A good portion of those that feed it will "switch to KDE with KDE4", making their best effort to look like the whole world cares about their über-critical decision to switch to another DE, and hopefully be happy with it. The rest of us will continue to use, develop and improve whatever Free DE that we see fit to our purposes, just making sure that they're interoperable.

vexorian
June 22nd, 2007, 07:04 PM
What I meant by my first post was, essentially, this : people get tired of seeing the same interface every day. KDE4 will give the desktop a fresh look, plus the Plasma and Kross will bring unlimited functionality to the DE right out of the box. I've always used GNOME, right from Fedora Core 3 to Ubuntu Feisty. I had to use KDE in Slackware, but I managed to get on well with it. GNOME looks better to me now, but KDE might look better in the future.

My intent was not starting a flamewar, but on discussing whether anybody here will switch to KDE4 and, if yes, what are the features that interest you the most?
well next time I would not use the Kill word then. Cause that involves a DE totally losing all users.

If you ask me, I will try KDE4 before deciding which features are good and what not, I wouldn't decide to moveto something before actually trying it. All the actual features are great in paper but you must see them working, and I would rather wait for an stable release before testing.

ComplexNumber
June 22nd, 2007, 07:05 PM
Neither will Gnome, even if KDE is gaining market share.

What do you think?
kde has been losing market share to gnome for the last year or so. many people took part in a poll recently that is conducted each year and that had 14500 linux users. questions were asked about the favourite window manager, favourite desktop, favourite distro, etc. there was a time a few years back when kde was leaps and bounds ahead of gnome in terms of popularity, but now they are equal. but kde has been consistently losing market share and gnome has been consistently gaining. here you can see the polls in action:


2004:
http://www.desktoplinux.com/cgi-bin/survey/survey.cgi?view=archive&id=0215200495458
gnome 21%
kde 61%


2006:
http://www.desktoplinux.com/cgi-bin/survey/survey.cgi?view=archive&id=0821200617613
gnome 35%
kde 37%



-----

i'm sure that a very large proportion of the gnome community will try out kde 4, at least for the sake of trying something new. but i would bet my life that the vast majority of them will go back to what they know after the novelty has worn off. that's the way it usually works. if kde 4 isn't absolutely amazing and totally bug free, it may well be the case that the gnome and kde market share will swing entirely in the direction of gnome's favour. kde 4 MUST live up to the hype, otherwise its a gonner.

rax_m
June 22nd, 2007, 07:11 PM
i hope kde4 doesn't kill gnome.. i like having choices!
Even tho' I'm using gnome mostly at the moment.. there're some days when I'll use kde just for fun. If KDE4 is great than I might use it... once it has stabalised a bit.

23meg
June 22nd, 2007, 07:13 PM
My intent was not starting a flamewar, but on discussing whether anybody here will switch to KDE4 and, if yes, what are the features that interest you the most?

If that's the case, you've done a horrible job at expressing yourself, and that hurts. Words like "kill", "obsolete", "destroy" are inherently provocative in discussions of this sort, and they tend to cause superficial polarizations that do more harm than good. There's no use in asking a group of people that use a piece of FOSS by choice whether that choice will be dead within a few months, or simply be left in the last century, only to be possibly resurrected by some kind soul later on with a fork; it's just provocation, and that's putting it mildly.

forrestcupp
June 22nd, 2007, 07:40 PM
My intent was not starting a flamewar, but on discussing whether anybody here will switch to KDE4 and, if yes, what are the features that interest you the most?

Well, it doesn't really matter how you convey yourself. If you use the words KDE and Gnome in the same thread starter, you will be starting a flame war.

Anyway, I have always been a Gnome user. But last night I installed KDE 3.5 to get myself familiar with KDE so I'll be ready when KDE 4 comes out. I'll be switching. I actually am liking 3.5 quite a bit right now, enough to make it my default.

I think the thing that sells me about KDE 4 is the built in composite window manager. With that, I don't care what they name the new Beryl.

mips
June 22nd, 2007, 08:01 PM
if kde 4 isn't absolutely amazing and totally bug free, it may well be the case that the gnome and kde market share will swing entirely in the direction of gnome's favour. kde 4 MUST live up to the hype, otherwise its a gonner.

What piece of software is completely bug free ? If anyone expects a bug free kde 4 they are in for a nasty suprise. KDE 4.0 will probably have many bugs and should start settling by 4.1

As for the hype that basically comes from those eagerly awaiting it.

As for KDE4 being a gonner I simply don't buy that but I can see how that will make you happy. It will probably make us happy as well as it would be the last time we hear your rantings on KDE ;)

ComplexNumber
June 22nd, 2007, 08:16 PM
What piece of software is completely bug free ? If anyone expects a bug free kde 4 they are in for a nasty suprise.yes, but that's exactly what i'm saying. one of the biggest problems with kde 4 is the amount of hype that's been generated. if the reality is not in line with the expectation, poeple are not going to be so forgiving. and it just makes the competition seem even better.
if something hasn't been overly hyped, people expect bugs and are realistic about it. but people are less forgiving is something has been overly hyped.

fyllekajan
June 22nd, 2007, 08:20 PM
I think the thing that sells me about KDE 4 is the built in composite window manager. With that, I don't care what they name the new Beryl.

Never liked the default window managers of the DEs, kwin, metacity and whatever they're called. I would be surprised if the KDE devs managed to get something together half as good as the compiz beryl fusion thingy, and if they do they should spend that time working to improve their office GUIs which looks horrible imo. If the GNOME devs looked at those screenshots then maybe they would laugh themselves to death, and that would be the only way KDE4 would be able to kill GNOME :)

ticopelp
June 22nd, 2007, 08:46 PM
I have no intention of switching to KDE. I tried it several times and have disliked it intensely each time.

I'll stick with Gnome until I have no other choice... and even then, KDE would be last on my list of alternatives.

ThinkBuntu
June 22nd, 2007, 08:56 PM
Dolphin is available in the Debian repos. Is it in the Ubuntu? Maybe a KDE person in here can share their thoughts on it.

ThinkBuntu
June 22nd, 2007, 09:06 PM
I just installed Dolphin and ran it in GNOME (with Metacity) and I'm unimpressed. It certainly has fewer features than Nautilus, and what I thought was an icon for column view is actually an icon for "split view" which didn't see very useful to me. The menus are sparse, and I would certainly choose Nautilus any day over Dolphin. Granted, I'm running Debian Testing, so while this package should be fairly up-to-date, maybe the KDE devs are collaborating to fill out this file manager.

EDIT: Dolphin is very, very similar to Thunar in look and feel, although I sense that Dolphin is more configurable (largely due to shortcut editing) and that Thunar has more features (being the Xfce default file manager).

forrestcupp
June 22nd, 2007, 09:50 PM
yes, but that's exactly what i'm saying. one of the biggest problems with kde 4 is the amount of hype that's been generated. if the reality is not in line with the expectation, poeple are not going to be so forgiving. and it just makes the competition seem even better.
if something hasn't been overly hyped, people expect bugs and are realistic about it. but people are less forgiving is something has been overly hyped.

I think you're underestimating it. I was pretty hyped about KDE 4. I just switched to KDE 3.5, and I was pleasantly surprised with it, so I know I won't be disappointed with 4. People shouldn't judge it by the alpha. We all know that the final product will be a lot better than the alpha.

ComplexNumber
June 22nd, 2007, 09:53 PM
I think you're underestimating it. I was pretty hyped about KDE 4. I just switched to KDE 3.5, and I was pleasantly surprised with it, so I know I won't be disappointed with 4. People shouldn't judge it by the alpha. We all know that the final product will be a lot better than the alpha.
i don't remember mentioning anything about judging the alpha.

forrestcupp
June 22nd, 2007, 09:59 PM
i don't remember mentioning anything about judging the alpha.

Well, I wasn't talking about you in that particular part. That was just a general statement. I guess I should have made a new paragraph.

fuscia
June 22nd, 2007, 10:39 PM
Dolphin is available in the Debian repos. Is it in the Ubuntu? Maybe a KDE person in here can share their thoughts on it.

i'm using dolphin in feisty. when i tested dolphin, thunar, nautilus and konqueror, on my machine, dolphin came out the lightest (which may change as it gets more developed), thunar was next, then konqueror with nautilus using more than twice as much resources as dolphin. i prefer dolphin and thunar to konqueror and nautilus and used aysiu's scripts to make them default.

phrostbyte
June 22nd, 2007, 11:28 PM
Nope. Gnome diehards and zealots will continue to release Gnome, and gnome devs will eventually release another version to compete with KDE 4..wasting energy in recreating the wheel, but hey, anything to compete with KDE.

Lets only hope KDE4 kicks butt and Gnome has to fight back.

I'm getting popcorn. :popcorn:


i'm using dolphin in feisty. when i tested dolphin, thunar, nautilus and konqueror, on my machine, dolphin came out the lightest (which may change as it gets more developed), thunar was next, then konqueror with nautilus using more than twice as much resources as dolphin. i prefer dolphin and thunar to konqueror and nautilus and used aysiu's scripts to make them default.

Lets not forget KDE 4 uses Qt 4, which is more more effiecent then Qt 3 (used by KDE currently).

fuscia
June 22nd, 2007, 11:51 PM
Lets not forget KDE 4 uses Qt 4, which is more more effiecent then Qt 3 (used by KDE currently).

yeah, but i think i missed your point.

phrostbyte
June 23rd, 2007, 12:08 AM
yeah, but i think i missed your point.

Sorry, no point. I figure I'd inform people who didn't know. KDE 4 is [suppose] to be nicer on the sys resources then KDE 3, it's rare for a software upgrade to do that!

Extreme Coder
June 23rd, 2007, 12:19 AM
. I would be surprised if the KDE devs managed to get something together half as good as the compiz beryl fusion thingy,
Compiz-Fusion was NOT developed by the GNOME team.And, if the new compositing effects in KDE 4 won't satisfy you, you can always use Compiz-Fusion on KDE, as it's DE-independent.

and if they do they should spend that time working to improve their office GUIs which looks horrible imo. If the GNOME devs looked at those screenshots then maybe they would laugh themselves to death, and that would be the only way KDE4 would be able to kill GNOME :smile:
IMO, the KOffice GUI has nothing wrong with it, and I actually like KOffice. It's light, yet almost full-featured. And I see nothing wrong with KPresenter's GUI, let me see if GNOME-Office's presenting program has a better GUI... Oh wait, GNOME-Office only has AbiWord, Gnumeric and GNOME-DB :P

PS. Don't mention OpenOffice, it has a theme for KDE and a theme for GNOME, and it is DE independent.

maniacmusician
June 23rd, 2007, 12:48 AM
I just installed Dolphin and ran it in GNOME (with Metacity) and I'm unimpressed. It certainly has fewer features than Nautilus, and what I thought was an icon for column view is actually an icon for "split view" which didn't see very useful to me. The menus are sparse, and I would certainly choose Nautilus any day over Dolphin. Granted, I'm running Debian Testing, so while this package should be fairly up-to-date, maybe the KDE devs are collaborating to fill out this file manager.

EDIT: Dolphin is very, very similar to Thunar in look and feel, although I sense that Dolphin is more configurable (largely due to shortcut editing) and that Thunar has more features (being the Xfce default file manager).
Dolphin is being added to on a weekly basis. To get an idea of the most current version, you'll have to build KDE4 from svn and see how it is.

raul_
June 23rd, 2007, 02:17 AM
This seems stupid but I really hope Dolphin has the "open folder" animations that Konqueror has

PS: I hate Konqueror arrgghhh

fyllekajan
June 23rd, 2007, 02:26 AM
Compiz-Fusion was NOT developed by the GNOME team.And, if the new compositing effects in KDE 4 won't satisfy you, you can always use Compiz-Fusion on KDE, as it's DE-independent.

IMO, the KOffice GUI has nothing wrong with it, and I actually like KOffice. It's light, yet almost full-featured. And I see nothing wrong with KPresenter's GUI, let me see if GNOME-Office's presenting program has a better GUI... Oh wait, GNOME-Office only has AbiWord, Gnumeric and GNOME-DB :P

PS. Don't mention OpenOffice, it has a theme for KDE and a theme for GNOME, and it is DE independent.

I never said or implied that Compiz-Fusion was made by the GNOME team or that it wasn't DE-independent. My point being just because of that, there's no need to add the window manager composite support to the KDE4 hype. For the record I'm using beryl myself without any DE and prefer some kde-apps over gtk-apps and some gtk-apps over kde-apps.

Koffice may be almost full-featured but the GUI is hiding those features, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. Funny thing is when GNOME hides features KDE users complain, but when it's done in koffice they call it intuitive.. go figure.

We all know this thread was started as a KDE vs GNOME flamewar, but pointing out that there's no GNOME presenting program is silly when you instead should compare kpresenter with existing programs.. something like keynote for example. To clarify my point, this is the screenshot of kword (http://www.koffice.org/kword/pics/bidi_2006_10.png) on it's website. Tell the average windows or mac user that there's this new thing thats called KDE4, that there's office apps available for it, and that they look like this (http://www.koffice.org/kword/pics/bidi_2006_10.png). :)

raul_
June 23rd, 2007, 02:30 AM
You should keep in mind that Compiz is a very recent project, and there are still many computers that don't support it ;)

And if you look at it, most themes from Kwin or Metacity are identical to Emerald themes, but without the wobbling, so I don't think they're doing a bad job

Mr. Picklesworth
June 23rd, 2007, 02:45 AM
What I like about Gnome is that it intends to be true to the way established with the Linux command line, which is what made it such a great interface in the first place, where every program does one thing and it does that thing well. Gnome's philosophy tries to keep this up in the GUI with its open ended simplicity.

It is even more difficult to step back and change the direction once all those misshapen, oversized blocks that are bloated applications exist, so I doubt KDE will get this going well as Gnome does unless they really change their direction. KDE 4 does give some more resources to achieve it, but right now the available applications are the weak link.

Something horrible I have noticed about that other design philosophy (enormous applications that do 100 things either built in or via their very own extension frameworks) is that they often replace what the OS should do. Process priorities, threading,, etc. can and should be left up to the underlying operating system by splitting the different jobs into entirely different programs, joined via well designed messaging interfaces. Programs should not in any way resemble operating systems!

Take a look at your nearest "featureful" IDE. $10 say that most of its features are really just other programs that could be run externally being dumped into its main window. Why can't I just open that program myself when I want it and have it in a different window instead of cluttering up the IDE's interface? Is it really necessary to waste time and resources by poorly integrating a Glade editor with the IDE instead of just opening the Glade file? The latter is a lot easier, a lot tidier, a lot more flexible (you want a different program associated with Glade files? Fine!) and a lot less likely to screw up some day down the line. Okay, okay, that happens everywhere. I agree. But you can't possibly call this a good direction for programs to take, so fixing this should be a big goal for the desktop environments.

Not to say that KDE doesn't make an effort. The spell checking there (achieved by a GUI library shared between desktop integrated apps) looks awesome, and they do have lots of highly extensible applications! (The desktop environment is also extremely flexible, made possible by open-endedness). Just... something about Gnome's style, I guess, makes it more clear and more easy for that feeling to happen.

Gnome isn't there yet either. Programs tend to have a hard coded association with one another (while the jobs are split between many small programs that do one thing well, it is not common to see a program seamlessly communicating with whatever does the job it needs done, and when it does happen it is often done via a very scary looking "what command should I use?" in the preferences). Gnome's window manager is not very flexible, which unfortunately hurts what I really want to have happen with my numerous independent programs. (TABS!). Nonetheless, its existing direction seems a bit closer to that holy grail than others... Not close, but closer. Also, of course, not all Gnome programs are so nice and tidy just as not all KDE programs are so big and bloated. KDE's file manager obviously is way better than Nautilus (mpg123 for audio previews? Still no GStreamer for previews, even after a patch submitted a few years ago?!), and Gnome has many programs that just do not play nice, or that look plain ugly, or are bone thin and without extensibility, which is a deadly but all too common combination.

Really, I just said nothing with the above except for what would be nice and how every GUI so far fails at it.



That ramble aside, KDE continues to use the QT library. QT is under GPL (not Lesser). What does this mean? This means that non-free software (stuff that needs to pay the very big licensing fees) is not going to use it unless absolutely necessary. Instead, that software will use the LGPLed GTK (which they can use freely without having it interfere with their license) or use something completely different (a *shudder* custom user interface). This means, by extension, that less programs will be properly integrated with the desktop.
Nothing against QT, but using it as a native user interface is suicidal for a desktop environment that wants to be taken seriously by anyone not doing GPLed software.


This isn't saying I don't like KDE, either! I use KDE, I have it installed right now, I play with it often, and I like the IDEs available for KDE. I am more used to Gnome at this point, but I could switch over and probably turn into a behemoth applications zealot (instead of a bone thin applications zealot) within minutes!
I will be looking at KDE 4 with interest. Major revisions are always fun :)

fyllekajan
June 23rd, 2007, 02:53 AM
You should keep in mind that Compiz is a very recent project, and there are still many computers that don't support it ;)

And if you look at it, most themes from Kwin or Metacity are identical to Emerald themes, but without the wobbling, so I don't think they're doing a bad job

That is true, but I imagine that running latest KDE in composite mode would also require some resources :) But yea hopefully they'll make their new window manager as good as possible. Then again, if people like the current kwin and metacity they are free to use it :)

Extreme Coder
June 23rd, 2007, 02:54 AM
I never said or implied that Compiz-Fusion was made by the GNOME team or that it wasn't DE-independent. My point being just because of that, there's no need to add the window manager composite support to the KDE4 hype. For the record I'm using beryl myself without any DE and prefer some kde-apps over gtk-apps and some gtk-apps over kde-apps.

Koffice may be almost full-featured but the GUI is hiding those features, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. Funny thing is when GNOME hides features KDE users complain, but when it's done in koffice they call it intuitive.. go figure.

We all know this thread was started as a KDE vs GNOME flamewar, but pointing out that there's no GNOME presenting program is silly when you instead should compare kpresenter with existing programs.. something like keynote for example. To clarify my point, this is the screenshot of kword on it's website. Tell the average windows or mac user that there's this new thing thats called KDE4, that there's office apps available for it, and that they look like this. :D

Actually, I think it's a good thing they're implementing their own composite support, since while Compiz/Beryl is DE independent, it generally works a lot better with GNOME.

And about KWord: I don't know about hiding features, but I am a normal user and it fits the bill for me pretty well :D And GNOME doesn't hide features, they remove them. That's the difference ;)

and I am afraid KeyNote doesn't exist for Linux (it's a Mac only program) unless you're talking about KeyJnote, which is of a different type.

And I have to admit, it's a bit stupid of them making that chinese letter screenshot their main screenshot, but you'd have to look in the screenshots section to see it's a normal word processor, and besides, all the shots there are from 2005/2006.

Extreme Coder
June 23rd, 2007, 03:02 AM
That, and KDE continues to use the QT library. QT is under GPL (not Lesser). What does this mean? This means that non-free software (stuff that needs to pay the very big licensing fees) is not going to use it unless absolutely necessary. Instead, that software will use the LGPLed GTK (which they can use freely without having it interfere with their license) or use something completely different (a *shudder* custom user interface). This means, by extension, that less programs will be properly integrated with the desktop.
Nothing against QT, but using it as a native user interface is suicidal for a desktop environment that wants to be taken seriously by anyone not doing GPLed software.

Skype, Google Earth, Opera use QT, and I wouldn't call them minor programs ;) Besides, here is what Wikipedia says:
"Since version 4, Qt has been available under a dual license, the GPL and a proprietary commercial license on all supported platforms including Windows. The commercial license allows the final application to be licensed under various free software/open source licenses such as the LGPL or the Artistic License, or a proprietary software license."
Another plus is that Trolltech provides commercial support for QT, but I don't know of any company that provides commercial support for GTK.

FuturePilot
June 23rd, 2007, 03:08 AM
You know, I haven't been a big fan of KDE, but I've grown more fond of it lately and I might actually switch to KDE when KDE 4 comes out. I've been starting to find that Gnome is lacking in a few areas but KDE seems to have those areas covered.

ComplexNumber
June 23rd, 2007, 03:15 AM
Skype, Google Earth, Opera use QT, and I wouldn't call them minor programs ;) Besides, here is what Wikipedia says:
"Since version 4, Qt has been available under a dual license, the GPL and a proprietary commercial license on all supported platforms including Windows. The commercial license allows the final application to be licensed under various free software/open source licenses such as the LGPL or the Artistic License, or a proprietary software license."
Another plus is that Trolltech provides commercial support for QT, but I don't know of any company that provides commercial support for GTK.
which desktop and toolkit has been chosen as the preferred one by LiPS(of which trolltech are a member) and the Mobile Linux Initiative? and why (in your opinion)? the question isn't just posed to you, but anyone.
just curious to hear another's point of view.

qamelian
June 23rd, 2007, 03:21 AM
SuSE used to not offer Gnome as an option (if my memory serves me right) until it was bought by Novell, who also bought Ximian and acquired Miquel de Icaza, one of the founders of Gnome and Mono. Mono is more integrated with the GTK+ toolkit and so blends easier with Gnome so SuSE had to start offering Gnome too.

Nope, your memory is flawed. SuSE provided Gnome way before Novell acquired them. I was using Gnome back in the days of SuSE 6. However, in those days, SuSE was very KDE-centric and the version of Gnome was usually at least a release or two behind, while KDE was usually the most current version available at the time of release.

i0Null
June 23rd, 2007, 03:28 AM
I'm not sure about the licensing involved with Qt and how open it is now. But GTK has been developed for open source from the beginning. A lot of people prefer GTK because it's known not to be 'cluttered' and is popular for it's simplicity.

fyllekajan
June 23rd, 2007, 03:35 AM
Actually, I think it's a good thing they're implementing their own composite support, since while Compiz/Beryl is DE independent, it generally works a lot better with GNOME.

And about KWord: I don't know about hiding features, but I am a normal user and it fits the bill for me pretty well :D And GNOME doesn't hide features, they remove them. That's the difference ;)

and I am afraid KeyNote doesn't exist for Linux (it's a Mac only program) unless you're talking about KeyJnote, which is of a different type.

And I have to admit, it's a bit stupid of them making that chinese letter screenshot their main screenshot, but you'd have to look in the screenshots section to see it's a normal word processor, and besides, all the shots there are from 2005/2006.

Whatever you say.. I have nothing against chinese.. And I'm fully aware that keynote is not available for Linux, see the secret here is to think bigger than the KDE vs GNOME flamewar. But maybe this is the wrong thread for that. :)

macogw
June 23rd, 2007, 05:00 AM
Nah, not if it's still using Qt. I doubt I'm the only one who, for purely cosmetic reasons, prefers GTK+ to Qt. On the functional side of things, I prefer GNOME for its simplicity and preference for most-likely-use, unlike the KDE apps which give an overwhelming number of options. Sometimes I think a GNOME app needs more options, but it's usually 1 or 2 options, and it's rather rare. KDE apps generally give the feeling of having too many buttons all over the place though.

maniacmusician
June 23rd, 2007, 06:51 AM
I'm not sure about the licensing involved with Qt and how open it is now. But GTK has been developed for open source from the beginning. A lot of people prefer GTK because it's known not to be 'cluttered' and is popular for it's simplicity.
...sorry, that doesn't make any sense. A toolkit can't be cluttered or uncluttered, it's just the way you use it. I've seen cluttered GTK apps and very clean looking QT apps. the toolkit has nothing to do with it.


Nah, not if it's still using Qt. I doubt I'm the only one who, for purely cosmetic reasons, prefers GTK+ to Qt. On the functional side of things, I prefer GNOME for its simplicity and preference for most-likely-use, unlike the KDE apps which give an overwhelming number of options. Sometimes I think a GNOME app needs more options, but it's usually 1 or 2 options, and it's rather rare. KDE apps generally give the feeling of having too many buttons all over the place though.
This is supposedly one of the things being largely addressed in KDE4. They're conforming more to freedesktop.org standards, and redefining their take on interfaces. The screenshots I've seen of KDE4 thus far do seem to reflect that.

One of the big thing was making configuration dialogs look better. Instead of having a billion options thrown at the user, they were going to utilize "sections" more often, and I heard something about tucking some of the options away under an "Advanced" dialog. That would certainly be most welcome, in my opinion. I love the extensive set of options that KDE gives me, but I always hate trudging through their awful config dialogs.

macogw
June 23rd, 2007, 06:57 AM
This is supposedly one of the things being largely addressed in KDE4. They're conforming more to freedesktop.org standards, and redefining their take on interfaces. The screenshots I've seen of KDE4 thus far do seem to reflect that.

One of the big thing was making configuration dialogs look better. Instead of having a billion options thrown at the user, they were going to utilize "sections" more often, and I heard something about tucking some of the options away under an "Advanced" dialog. That would certainly be most welcome, in my opinion. I love the extensive set of options that KDE gives me, but I always hate trudging through their awful config dialogs.

Will they make it stop looking like someone vomited metallic bubble gum and called it a UI? See http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/d/db/About_KDE.png ? The buttons are all round and shiny and...bubbly. Too much shiny. Too much round. Too much bubbles.

maniacmusician
June 23rd, 2007, 07:29 AM
Will they make it stop looking like someone vomited metallic bubble gum and called it a UI? See http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/d/db/About_KDE.png ? The buttons are all round and shiny and...bubbly. Too much shiny. Too much round. Too much bubbles.
[shrug] that's just one theme. some people like it that way. I personally don't. Mine is much more low key.

Of course KDE has some bad themes, but it's got a few really good ones too.

RAV TUX
June 23rd, 2007, 07:34 AM
I honestly like GNOME & KDE, a lot....using GNOME right now, find KDE more feature rich and KDE aps are some of the best out there.

Yet, I still find e17 blows them all away...looking forward to the e17 stable release.

e17 represents a pure Linux look, meaning a unique feature rich desktop environment that looks and acts nothing like Windows or Apple.

RAV TUX
June 23rd, 2007, 07:37 AM
Will they make it stop looking like someone vomited metallic bubble gum and called it a UI? See http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/d/db/About_KDE.png ? The buttons are all round and shiny and...bubbly. Too much shiny. Too much round. Too much bubbles.

KDE is what you make it. You can make KDE look more like GNOME if you like, when I use KDE I make it look and act like Fluxbox....very minimalistic and simple, but filled with feature rich aps of KDE.

macogw
June 23rd, 2007, 07:49 AM
KDE is what you make it. You can make KDE look more like GNOME if you like, when I use KDE I make it look and act like Fluxbox....very minimalistic and simple, but filled with feature rich aps of KDE.

I hate the "feature rich" (more like "feature mongering") apps of KDE. The address book on KDE is better than the version of Rubrica in Feisty's repos, but no better than the current version of Rubrica. Sad to say, but I actually think the Address Book app on OS X is very very nice. Too bad there's not a Linux one of that. Hmm, odd. The only KDE and the only Aqua apps I like are both address books. Okay, I lied. KTurtle's alright, but has too many options. The reason it's alright is that there is no other LOGO ("the Turtle Game") for Linux.

What Qt programs are better than the GTK ones? Konqueror v Firefox? Firefox. KTorrent v Azuerus? Azureus. KSnapshot v Gnome Screenshot? Used to be KSnapshot, but Gnome Screenshot got a timer and "screen or window," so tied. Amarok v Banshee? I know everybody disagrees with me, but Banshee (don't like that sideways nav thing that Amarok has going on). K3B v GnomeBaker? Well, K3B didn't work for me when I tried it, so...oh, and the UI is confusing. Kopete v Pidgin? Pidgin. XChat-Gnome v Konversation? XChat-Gnome.

thesmartace
June 23rd, 2007, 08:05 AM
I have been a GNOME user ever since moving to Ubuntu (back in 5.04). I do, however, love Amarok and Quanta+ ;)

I'm sooo tempted to make the switch to KDE once 4 is released. I can't wait to test out all the new cool stuff.

tbroderick
June 23rd, 2007, 09:26 AM
What Qt programs are better than the GTK ones? Konqueror v Firefox? Firefox. KTorrent v Azuerus? Azureus.

Does Firefox and Azureus really count as a GTK apps?

oobuntoo
June 23rd, 2007, 09:56 AM
It's really pointless to argue which DE is better. Everyone has his/her reasons for favoring one over another. Most people already have negative perception of rival DE's that they don't use etched into their mind, so trying to convince them otherwise is a waste of time.

dptxp
June 23rd, 2007, 10:47 AM
Gnome is simple to use, you can navigate with more ease.
So I use Gnome, but have kde-core installed and use it sometimes for a change or for
its exclusive features.
I am planning to install xfce too.

Gnome can not get killed. Its simplicity shall be loved by its users. And let us remember that
KDE was not open source for a long time, Gnome always was.

Erunno
June 23rd, 2007, 11:18 AM
Does Firefox and Azureus really count as a GTK apps?

No, as far as I know Firefox uses XUL for the interface and Azureus uses SWT (although there seem to be bindings to GTK). One thing that I never liked about GNOME is the lack of application integration. By relying on third-party project so much these days (OpenOffice, Firefox, Thunderbird, Azureus, etc.) it does feel less like one cohesive desktop environment and more like, well, Windows. And, yes, I know that aforementioned applications are not part of the official GNOME project but most distributions (and users) seem to have the opinion that the official apps are inferior and have to be replaced.

BTW, I hope nobody judges Dolphin by its KDE 3 incarnation as development on it has stopped a long time ago in favour of the KDE 4 version.

mrgnash
June 23rd, 2007, 11:24 AM
I'll be sticking with Gnome for the foreseeable future. I'm an aesthete and KDE4 still looks ugly to me... plus I hate the K-- naming system.

proalan
June 23rd, 2007, 11:36 AM
I'll be sticking with Gnome for the foreseeable future. I'm an aesthete and KDE4 still looks ugly to me... plus I hate the K-- naming system.

I quite like KDE but i have to agree with the 'k' prefixing its as anoying as how mcdonalds prefix everything with mc. With the exception of McJob (the term sarcastically means min wage job in the uk).

ankursethi
June 23rd, 2007, 12:28 PM
I generally make my KDE look like GNOME with two panels and a GTK-like theme :-) Hopefully KDE4 will look nice by default.

I suppose the release of KDE4 will pave the way for GNOME3 ... and I'll have to start a "Will GNOME3 Kill KDE?" thread.

BetaguyGZT
June 23rd, 2007, 01:10 PM
I love all the Desktop Environments out there for GNU/Linux. KDE is my DE of choice, but there are things that only Gnome can do and is better suited for.

As far as Gnome 3 is concerned, I'm sure the developers will get to it eventually. Perhaps it'll look something like this. (http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=GnomeMock&m=tags&z=t) I never get tired of looking at those mockups. :D

mostwanted
June 23rd, 2007, 01:35 PM
As far as Gnome 3 is concerned, I'm sure the developers will get to it eventually. Perhaps it'll look something like this. (http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=GnomeMock&m=tags&z=t) I never get tired of looking at those mockups. :D

Aren't these features pretty much all present in Gnome already? Network-manager, sound applet, the alternative Gnome menus....?

BetaguyGZT
June 23rd, 2007, 02:02 PM
Pretty much. Aside from a few little changes and additions to Gnome, 90% of it can be done now. We already have the Novell parts (Main Menu and Control Center).

guitarmaniac
June 24th, 2007, 01:54 PM
GNOME must survive! :x I Loves GNOME interface.I can live with Kde,if they port it into gtk2 and remove everything that starts with "K".

I second that

blah blah blah
June 24th, 2007, 02:45 PM
I doubt Gnome will be able to compete with KDE on the same level. Gnome is going to get super weird to compete.

ComplexNumber
June 24th, 2007, 02:49 PM
I doubt Gnome will be able to compete with KDE on the same level. Gnome is going to get super weird to compete.
what level is that?

blah blah blah
June 24th, 2007, 02:56 PM
what level is that?

Prettiness mostly

ComplexNumber
June 24th, 2007, 02:58 PM
Prettiness mostly
oh. i see. each to their own then.

Andrewie
June 24th, 2007, 03:25 PM
Here These are the REAL default looks of gnome and kde, personally their both good so lets stop with the kde is shiny thing.

Gnome 2.18

http://img371.imageshack.us/img371/2209/figuredesktopwn4.th.png (http://img371.imageshack.us/my.php?image=figuredesktopwn4.png)

KDE 3.5.x

http://img371.imageshack.us/img371/6196/01welcomekw4.th.png (http://img371.imageshack.us/my.php?image=01welcomekw4.png)



for all the gnome users, notice how KDE and GNOME are both shiny. If you compile Gnome or KDE from source this is how they will look, just to be perfectly clear.

---------

There is nothing wrong with having a k in every application, whenever someone brings that up its clear they can't find anything wrong with KDE. All I want from KDE 4 is a end to these needless flame-wars.

~Andrew~

blah blah blah
June 24th, 2007, 03:30 PM
...so lets stop with the fud...
I'm not trying to scare anyone.

awakatanka
June 24th, 2007, 03:47 PM
Here These are the REAL default looks of gnome and kde, personally their both good so lets stop with the fud.

Gnome 2.18

http://img371.imageshack.us/img371/2209/figuredesktopwn4.th.png (http://img371.imageshack.us/my.php?image=figuredesktopwn4.png)

KDE 3.5.x

http://img371.imageshack.us/img371/6196/01welcomekw4.th.png (http://img371.imageshack.us/my.php?image=01welcomekw4.png)



for all the gnome users, notice how KDE and GNOME are both shiny. If you compile Gnome or KDE from source this is how they will look, just to be perfectly clear.

---------

There is nothing wrong with having a k in every application, whenever someone brings that up its clear they can't find anything wrong with KDE. All I want from KDE 4 is a end to these needless flame-wars.

~Andrew~
i'm a KDE user and i find that screenshot butt ugly. If thats the first impression i had when i started using linux i would go back to windows. Damn it looks like win 95. Luckly i can change it to look 1000 times better than that.

Not about the kicker, because 2 small gnome kickers make the same big kicker from KDE but wallpaper sucks and the icons suck to. Hope KDE team will make a stunning 1st impression with KDE4.

Enverex
June 24th, 2007, 04:14 PM
I'm not trying to scare anyone.

You may not be but the thread OP blatantly is. "Will KDE4 Kill GNOME?". Be honest, why would it? "omg sshiney bits111". People aren't gonna suddenly all decide to switch environments.

Andrewie
June 25th, 2007, 01:01 AM
I'm not trying to scare anyone.

you'll have to forgive me that was a typo on my part, i meant "we can stop with the whole "shiny" thing'.


i'm a KDE user and i find that screenshot butt ugly. If thats the first impression i had when i started using linux i would go back to windows. Damn it looks like win 95. Luckly i can change it to look 1000 times better than that.

Not about the kicker, because 2 small gnome kickers make the same big kicker from KDE but wallpaper sucks and the icons suck to. Hope KDE team will make a stunning 1st impression with KDE4.

Not sure what the deal with the icons are, just about every distro keeps the default kde fonts, but change a few of them like the start menu. I don't think anything is wrong with the wallpapers. The Gnome one is a little out there but default wallpapers should be out of the way and neutral. Thats why I posted the screen shots the kicker and the 2 gnome bars are the same size...

fyllekajan
June 25th, 2007, 01:29 AM
I want to bump this thread, because it's so interesting. :popcorn:

ComplexNumber
June 25th, 2007, 01:39 AM
I want to bump this thread, because it's so interesting. :popcorn:
well if it's so interesting, how come you haven't got anything more to say? :p

bluknight
June 25th, 2007, 01:44 AM
I noticed a bunch of kde4 packages in synaptic but I cannot find any comments in this thread about them. Anyone tried them with interesting results not on gnome?

Andrewie
June 25th, 2007, 01:53 AM
i tried the packages in Suse, and that ended up ok. i'm not sure how the kde4 packages are in ubuntu but they should be set up not to mess with your kde 3 so if you create a new user you should be able to use kde with out ruining your system.

the only thing I saw was the new dolphin which is really good, its a lot better then the one for kde 3, but other then that it was too broken to try much else.

fyllekajan
June 25th, 2007, 02:02 AM
well if it's so interesting, how come you haven't got anything more to say? :p

LOL already made my points :) But if you're asking for it I'll add that every GNOME vs KDE thread from the last 10 years should be merged together and locked away in some basement for future generations. :p

zekopeko
June 25th, 2007, 02:04 AM
gnome is nice because it's simple. for the most part. and it looks really nice.
kde3 doesn't look so nice compared with gnome 2.

kde4 needs to be really shiny because thats the name of the game now. check apple's leopard.
now that's shiny, simple and beautiful. i hope gnome goes the apple route even more.

maniacmusician
June 25th, 2007, 02:04 AM
The Kubuntu KDE4 packages in the feisty repos are actually pretty bad. They're very old already and not worth using. If you want to test KDE4, you need to be building it from SVN at this point, or wait for the RC1 release.

zekopeko
June 25th, 2007, 02:05 AM
LOL already made my points :) But if you're asking for it I'll add that every GNOME vs KDE thread from the last 10 years should be merged together and locked away in some basement for future generations. :p

i would really like to know how many GB that would take on a HDD? :D

Andrewie
June 25th, 2007, 03:50 AM
i would really like to know how many GB that would take on a HDD? :D

I don't think the HDD would be measured in GB :lol:

blah blah blah
June 25th, 2007, 04:06 AM
I don't think the HDD would be measured in GB :lol:

I don't know about that, you can store a butt load of text on 1 TiB.

maniacmusician
June 25th, 2007, 04:25 AM
I don't know about that, you can store a butt load of text on 1 TiB.
10 years worth of conversation/flame-wars would add up to a few thousand "butt loads"

blah blah blah
June 25th, 2007, 04:44 AM
10 years worth of conversation/flame-wars would add up to a few thousand "butt loads"

A TiB of txt.7z files would be about 995,763,643,000 words.

vexorian
June 25th, 2007, 06:40 PM
aprox 3155 words a second during 10 years.

blah blah blah
June 25th, 2007, 06:56 PM
aprox 3155 words a second during 10 years.

That seems unrealistic to me.

DigitalDuality
June 25th, 2007, 08:44 PM
Will they make it stop looking like someone vomited metallic bubble gum and called it a UI? See http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/d/db/About_KDE.png ? The buttons are all round and shiny and...bubbly. Too much shiny. Too much round. Too much bubbles.

it's been that, and the win 95 look of gnome.

DigitalDuality
June 25th, 2007, 09:17 PM
What Qt programs are better than the GTK ones? Konqueror v Firefox? Firefox. KTorrent v Azuerus? Azureus. KSnapshot v Gnome Screenshot? Used to be KSnapshot, but Gnome Screenshot got a timer and "screen or window," so tied. Amarok v Banshee? I know everybody disagrees with me, but Banshee (don't like that sideways nav thing that Amarok has going on). K3B v GnomeBaker? Well, K3B didn't work for me when I tried it, so...oh, and the UI is confusing. Kopete v Pidgin? Pidgin. XChat-Gnome v Konversation? XChat-Gnome.

konq vs FF: konq is quick, ff is sluggish. no amount of plugins will make up for that. In fact, Firefox is the last browser i will touch on linux period. What was a great browser has turned to crap. Even the mozilla build vs the OS builds for whatever Linux OS you chose.. doesn't make enough difference for me. I'll use epiphany, konq, and opera any day of ff in linux. Though i use it primarily on OS X and Windows.

ktorrent is the utorrent of linux and yes, it's superb. Again, not sluggish and resource hoggins.

Amarok rules every media player known to man on any platform, period.
k3b and gnomebaker are about equal, i prefer k3b. The UI isn't confusing at all though.

Pidgin is better than kopete, but kopete has much more promise.
I love Konversation though. And i love Kontact and Koffice whips OpenOffice in terms of speed, just not functionality.

puppy
June 25th, 2007, 09:35 PM
To bring this back slightly more on topic, and to echo an earlier post, I think it's wonderful that we have Gnome and KDE competing in this space. Having more than one desktop means that innovation is assured (and the same thing can be said, I believe, for having multiple distros available)

I will try KDE4 when it appears but I have the feeling I will slink back and apologise to the Gnome for being unfaithful, and then give him a little hug [-X My only beef with Gnome is that it doesn't have the nice simple digital TV interface offered by Kaffeine, and doesn't allow me to fiddle with screensaver options - silly Gnome :p

mips
June 25th, 2007, 09:59 PM
konq vs FF: konq is quick, ff is sluggish. no amount of plugins will make up for that. In fact, Firefox is the last browser i will touch on linux period. What was a great browser has turned to crap. Even the mozilla build vs the OS builds for whatever Linux OS you chose.. doesn't make enough difference for me. I'll use epiphany, konq, and opera any day of ff in linux. Though i use it primarily on OS X and Windows.

ktorrent is the utorrent of linux and yes, it's superb. Again, not sluggish and resource hoggins.

Amarok rules every media player known to man on any platform, period.
k3b and gnomebaker are about equal, i prefer k3b. The UI isn't confusing at all though.

Pidgin is better than kopete, but kopete has much more promise.
I love Konversation though. And i love Kontact and Koffice whips OpenOffice in terms of speed, just not functionality.

Hmm, I think I feel the same about all the above points but I have not used pidgin yet. I just wish konversation has a userid serperator like x-chat. Spoke to the devs a while back and they mentioned they are looking into it.

Mr. Picklesworth
June 26th, 2007, 12:34 AM
and doesn't allow me to fiddle with screensaver options Well, it does, but it is more difficult than with KDE (which is quite backwards).

Gnome-Screensaver (http://live.gnome.org/GnomeScreensaver) seems rather over-engineered at the moment, with a crazy "theme engine" idea. Each screensaver has an associated .desktop file in a screensavers directory somewhere, with the command line option executing the actual screen saver binary which is expected to accept many command line options. The neat thing there is that a package can install another "screen saver" which is really just an existing one with a different command line option (such as the output of a program that pulls text from a web site).

Assuming they will some day build this into a dynamic interface that does more than just screen savers (and works with more than just command lines), it will be very cool! Until then, unless we get an easy screen saver configuration tool that talks to this theme engine idea, it is rather pointless for the customization-obsessed end user.

There is a good explanation, including suitable justification and a subtle reminder of why we do not use xscreensaver any more, straight from the source, here (http://live.gnome.org/GnomeScreensaver/FrequentlyAskedQuestions#head-64ef29e28226e09a3b849d8f00726cc004625c62).



Having more than one desktop means that innovation is assured (and the same thing can be said, I believe, for having multiple distros available)
Bingo!
And this is why it is really fantastic that both KDE and Gnome have their own fans who won't give up on their respective desktop environments :)

blah blah blah
June 26th, 2007, 12:45 AM
Assuming they will some day build this into a dynamic interface that does more than just screen savers (and works with more than just command lines), it will be very cool! Until then, unless we get an easy screen saver configuration tool that talks to this theme engine idea, it is rather pointless for the customization-obsessed end user.

That would go against their "Hey! rather letting the user decide whats too complicate for them lets choose for them!" concept.

23meg
June 26th, 2007, 12:50 AM
That would go against their "Hey! rather letting the user decide whats too complicate for them lets choose for them!" concept.

Read the FAQ.

ButteBlues
June 26th, 2007, 12:52 AM
Amarok rules every media player known to man on any platform, period.

Foobar2000 would like to have a word with you.

blah blah blah
June 26th, 2007, 12:57 AM
Read the FAQ.

Which?

23meg
June 26th, 2007, 01:03 AM
Which?

The one linked to in the post you quoted. Read these (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=2897623#post2897623) too.

Mr. Picklesworth
June 26th, 2007, 04:09 AM
The theme engine stuff reduces the need for configuration by providing an interface where many advanced and functional configurations for screensavers can be readily available, rather than the user having to think of and do it himself via a convoluted / messy / misshapen GUI.
Assuming the idea catches on (and assuming that interface gets nicer, with a tree view to list the different themes for each theme engine), it will be very effective!

Jammerdelray
June 27th, 2007, 02:38 AM
Will never happen, both have their advantages just like all the various linux distros each one has something to offer.

GSF1200S
June 27th, 2007, 08:16 AM
Gnome is a different approach than KDE. Its all been said.

The one thing that severly needs to be changed is Nautilus. It is an inferior file browser. Ive heard the code is a mess, although, im not sure how true this is. Im guessing a transition to another file manager would be very difficult.

Most of the things I miss when using GNOME is things to do with the file manager. Konqueror simply is better, Most of the other options I can find ways around in GNOME. Youd be amazed what the gconf-editor and a few scripts can accomplish when you research enough.

I currently cant wait for KDE4, and Im using KDE3. That being said, I dont hate GNOME, in fact finding the programs and general actions more stable than KDE (at least Kubuntus KDE). I installed GNOME on my moms computer (Ubuntu of course). Hell if it wasnt for crappy Nautilus Id probably use GNOME more often.

SlayerMan
June 27th, 2007, 09:22 AM
I too don't think that KDE4 will kill Gnome. Rather, it will drive innovation and progress within the Gnome community.

Also, although I'm a KDE user mainly, I think KDE4 is way over-hyped. If it fails to fulfill all the expectations people have towards it, it could ruin its reputation.

forrestcupp
June 27th, 2007, 02:33 PM
Also, although I'm a KDE user mainly, I think KDE4 is way over-hyped. If it fails to fulfill all the expectations people have towards it, it could ruin its reputation.

If it doesn't fail to fulfill all the expectations people have, it could put the hurt on Gnome. But people who are extreme about their DE won't change no matter what.

Enverex
June 27th, 2007, 02:38 PM
You people are acting like this is some sort of competition. The respective groups are creating the DEs because thats what those people prefer to use and people use KDE/Gnome because they like it, they aren't like each other so the chances of everyone switching to something completely different are pretty much impossible.

forrestcupp
June 27th, 2007, 03:15 PM
You people are acting like this is some sort of competition. The respective groups are creating the DEs because thats what those people prefer to use and people use KDE/Gnome because they like it, they aren't like each other so the chances of everyone switching to something completely different are pretty much impossible.

They are like each other. They both have windows, menus, settings, screensavers, taskbars/panels, workspaces, desktops, mouse events, etc. All DE's pretty much do the same thing only they have their own identity.

Everyone switching is pretty much impossible, but I switched. Honestly, there's not that much difference, but I personally like KDE's setup a little better. KDE 4 will just be icing on the cake.

PryGuy
June 27th, 2007, 03:31 PM
Well, I heared a lot about the almighty KDE4 but I haven't seen a single KDE4 screenshot that would make me say Wow! about it. I do like some KDE apps but generally saying I can hardly use KDE3. Sorry, KDE fans. ;) So I personally do not believe that there gonna be some radical and revolutional improvements.

DigitalDuality
June 27th, 2007, 03:31 PM
Foobar2000 would like to have a word with you.
foobar is nice but takes too much initial configuration to be wonderful

vexorian
June 27th, 2007, 07:25 PM
If it doesn't fail to fulfill all the expectations people have, it could put the hurt on Gnome. But people who are extreme about their DE won't change no matter what.
something I must point out is that gnome is an open source project with plenty of users, those things don't die. Worst case scenario KDE4 lives to the hype (although that's unlikely) and if there was a moment in which 50% of the gnome users switched then gnome would simply be forced to improve towards that KDE4ish area, even if the main developers like philosophy so much that they wouldn't change anything, the thing that would happen is, obviously, a fork, and gnome would stay alive but maybe with another name... And that's worst case scenario...

Erunno
June 27th, 2007, 07:31 PM
Can anybody be specific about where KDE 4 won't live up to the so-called hype?

forrestcupp
June 27th, 2007, 08:30 PM
I don't care if Gnome users switch or not. They should only switch if they think they will like it better.

It's kind of like the whole AMD vs Intel war. AMD used to be the fastest, now Intel is. Later AMD will release something new that is faster, then Intel will again. I can't afford to just keep switching back and forth to keep up. It's the same with Gnome & KDE. I'm sure later Gnome will have the next killer release.

Who really cares? I'll use what I like.

Andrewie
June 28th, 2007, 12:36 AM
Can anybody be specific about where KDE 4 won't live up to the so-called hype?

not sure what hype everyone speaks of, but I believe their referring to features not being done in time. KDE 4 is going to be just as stable as any other project, their only going to include the features that work/are finished.

SirShaggy
June 28th, 2007, 02:03 AM
Personally, I could care less if KDE polished my shoes while I worked. I still would not use it. No sense in it to me. Looks crappy, with way too much crap in it. In my opinion, if Linux only had KDE, I'd be a OSX user instead. (I was going to say a Windows User, but I couldn't do it!) I am sure KDE has useful features and many prefer it. That is great! A preference for everyone. Linux has something for all of us. I just could care less what KDE does, has or will do....

SirShaggy

spockrock
June 28th, 2007, 02:48 AM
I really like some of the new kde features, but its still looks like an eye sore to me, but thats just my opinion. Well I will still give KDE4 a go.

CarpKing
June 28th, 2007, 03:01 AM
I'll probably give it a go with a live CD of some sort. I'm pretty sure Gnome isn't going to die anytime soon. If KDE4 is really great, Gnome might decrease slightly in popularity, but it would take a long period of KDE improving greatly and Gnome getting worse for Gnome to be abandoned.

forrestcupp
June 28th, 2007, 02:38 PM
Personally, I could care less if KDE polished my shoes while I worked. I still would not use it. No sense in it to me. Looks crappy, with way too much crap in it. In my opinion, if Linux only had KDE, I'd be a OSX user instead. (I was going to say a Windows User, but I couldn't do it!) I am sure KDE has useful features and many prefer it. That is great! A preference for everyone. Linux has something for all of us. I just could care less what KDE does, has or will do....

SirShaggy

Just in fun, check this (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=467232&highlight=could+couldn%27t+care+less) out.

devanity
June 28th, 2007, 03:11 PM
I have used gnome since Redhat 7 (7 years soon), I have always liked gnome better. Ttried KDE a few times, but it never felt as good as gnome.

fyllekajan
June 28th, 2007, 07:19 PM
I have used gnome since Redhat 7 (7 years soon), I have always liked gnome better. Ttried KDE a few times, but it never felt as good as gnome.

Back then, GNOME came with enlightenment as wm iirc. And E16 still rocks today. The panel looked somewhat like the panel in KDE today, and think KDE looked like some hybrid between Windows95 and some old mac OS. :p

mips
June 28th, 2007, 10:39 PM
KDE must suck!

deepclutch
June 30th, 2007, 06:55 PM
I have used gnome since Redhat 7 (7 years soon), I have always liked gnome better. Ttried KDE a few times, but it never felt as good as gnome.
period.
May be kde4 dolphin(i felt it too similar to good ol` nautilus fm) can attract GNOME users(most GNOME users are not fanboys.they use GNOME for its simplicity that i feel).


My experiance with kde is always bad.first i dont lilke windows be it Xp or Vista or future VIanna or singularity or or or..
So I thought Linux users are only of one kind and felt proud of FOSS unity.So on a bad morning i opened the doors of a fecal matter called tux magazine(now RIP,ghost is now also there).all i want to say is that these losers are forcing kde as the only DE out there and the admins and members alike bashing GNOME and GTK2(that means other wms too) to the maximum,you feel hurt,with the mango parfait that lady? trouble shooter.if somebody asked a question with I am using ubuntu--she is fast to start GNOME bashing.period.according to the publishers KDE is the future and FOSS is not about options.
So my kde experiance ends there.why cant this people understand people can live without the better(kde?)

but even after tis experiance,i am ready to learn that kde4 sure brings new changes and a dolphin file manager which will be partially atleast replace konqueror.

Mr. Picklesworth
July 1st, 2007, 01:45 AM
If you think KDE is going to take over the universe, or win the Linux desktop environments "battle", you are deluded.

Its native UI toolkit blocks any developers who aren't using GPL and lack piles of cash from developing for the thing. This may appeal to folks who want an environment which has undiluted GPLed software, but to the rest of the free world (read: Not willing to be unavoidably twisted by a software license that they have been required to use, regardless of its description as "free" or "open") this is just not kool.
KDE taking over would block people from getting started in any kind of commercial software development thanks to the Troll Tax. This would be bad.
Lots of developers would leave for a desktop environment more open to being built on, like Windows or Mac OS.

Sorry about the obvious bias there. I'm, err, a bit over-opinionated on it all. KDE could step back and use a different UI toolkit, but that would defeat one of the things that people other than myself really like (and understandably so!) about the environment, so would really be a worse move than using Qt in the first place.
The best choice in my opinion is to stop deluding yourselves. KDE is not going to become the standard. If it did then "free software" and the GPL license would be forever tarnished by a negative image of forced freedom (aka: False freedom).
It is not going to happen; it does not want to happen. KDE will remain a nice cozy outlet for free (GPL free) software and that will be that.

Mr. Picklesworth
July 1st, 2007, 02:01 AM
Eeek! Sorry, double post.

fjgaude
July 1st, 2007, 02:18 AM
I've found KDE slow, likely because of the burden of so many shared object files... it's so flexible in ways that don't appeal to me. And it's is simply ugly from a graphic design point of view. But let it be... it's free.

Long live Gnome.

frank

deepclutch
July 1st, 2007, 06:02 AM
If you think KDE is going to take over the universe, or win the Linux desktop environments "battle", you are deluded.
.
The best choice in my opinion is to stop deluding yourselves. KDE is not going to become the standard. If it did then "free software" and the GPL license would be forever tarnished by a negative image of forced freedom (aka: False freedom).
It is not going to happen; it does not want to happen. KDE will remain a nice cozy outlet for free software.
your last paragraph will not be taken lightly by kde admirers i think.becoz,they believe when trolltech released qt toolkit as GPL,the need for GNOME stopped(their version of incidence),as "sole reason" for GNOME Project started is when kde is on route to proprietory model.
but :p ;) qt(c++) is supposed to be the better developing environment by many is a reality.

What GNOME needs is, to make its priority in its next basic release is make it easy for building it.easy dependency resolution.
I know GARNOME or jhbuild exists.
But building kde is afaik always easier and maintaining the deps too is easy.this is one good thing GNOME devels should adopt.
I dont want to remember slackware removing GNOME from its distro in total(although GNOME is available from ext sources).

loell
July 1st, 2007, 06:16 AM
qt(c++) is supposed to be the better developing environment by many is a reality.


i'm not sure about that ,small developers who would like to earn money in linux platform, would have to think twice before considering these pricing scheme ;)


Qt License Pricing

Trolltech offers volume discounts for purchases of multiple licenses, please contact sales@trolltech.com for further information.

NA

You are currently viewing prices in USD, please contact sales@trolltech.com if you want prices quoted in Euros.
License Pricing (per developer)
Platform Console Edition Desktop Light Edition Desktop Edition
One Platform $1780 $1990 $3300
Two Platforms $2670 $2990 $4950
Three Platforms $3560 $3980 $6600

This includes 12 months of Maintenance and Support. See below for renewal prices after 12 months.

Castar
July 1st, 2007, 12:44 PM
It is so contradictory that the FSF that always supports free as in freedom software is supporting Gnome with its LGPLed libraries. This allows for people to link to libraries of Gnome without them obligated to open up the source code.

KDE on the other hand, is only GPLed which means that developers linking to its libraries must opensource their projects. If they want to make propriety apps, they need to pay Trolltech.

So, companies support Gnome because it has a more liberal development model with many oportunities for programmers to make money.

But since when and why should we approve of the closed-source-friendly approach over the completely open-source one? If people want to make money out of their progrmas, I don't see why Trolltech shouldn't make money in a similar way. After all they are providing an excellent tool.

I like Gnome and I like KDE (I use Gnome right now) but I think that right now KDE is free-er than Gnome. And KDE is based on C++ which is way faster a way of developing applications.

What I'm trying to say is that it makes no sense for the opensource community to bash KDE, it is more open-source friendly and it underlying technology (C++/Qt) is superior to Gnome.

If only it had the look 'n feel of Gnome... :D

needtolookatascreenshot
July 1st, 2007, 01:07 PM
KDE on the other hand, is only GPLed which means that developers linking to its libraries must opensource their projects. If they want to make propriety apps, they need to pay Trolltech.

KDE, or rather all KDE libraries are LGPLed. QT however is under the GPL, you are right. And before anyone complains that having KDE libs under the LGPL when QT is under the GPL doesn't make any sense, just think about Safari.

Erunno
July 1st, 2007, 01:40 PM
i'm not sure about that ,small developers who would like to earn money in linux platform, would have to think twice before considering these pricing scheme ;)

Qt Small Business Program
(http://trolltech.com/products/qt/licenses/licensing/smallbusiness)

loell
July 1st, 2007, 02:16 PM
Qt Small Business Program
(http://trolltech.com/products/qt/licenses/licensing/smallbusiness)

still a bit scary, it doesn't say how much exactlty a "small" company or proprietor will pay, given that he has complied with the necessary requirements for QT small business program.


Program Offering
The Small Business program offers startups and small businesses the initial
purchase of up to three Qt licenses (with optional Solutions and QSA add-ons) at
a 65% discount.

The discount applies to initial purchases only and subsequent renewals of the
license are not discounted. Furthermore, such discounts shall not apply to runtime
licenses. Trolltech reserves the right to modify or discontinue this program at any
time.


If i'm a startup , I think i would rather focus my energy in development with C++/GTK , C#/gtk# or if god forbids C/gtk, better yet C++/Wxwidgets.

Erunno
July 1st, 2007, 03:17 PM
If i'm a startup , I think i would rather focus my energy in development with C++/GTK , C#/gtk# or if god forbids C/gtk, better yet C++/Wxwidgets.

The question is always how much will you save in the long run. The initial costs may be higher but getting a well-documented (!), commercially supported and argugaly more refined framework might be cheaper in the long run. Just stating that GTK+ is better because it's free is very short-sighted.

Mr. Picklesworth
July 1st, 2007, 03:23 PM
Indeed. If everything with KDE was GPLed I would be a bit more accepting of the whole thing, but frankly GPLing only the ui toolkit causes one thing for those who still want to develop on KDE: Ugly workarounds. Applications that work in KDE, but use the wrong toolkit, which has risk of causing an inconsistent look across the environment and poor accessibility as it becomes hard to predict how each programs' custom ui toolkit works.

Castar, I see what you mean and that is why I think KDE has its place; I bet you really like the environment for that widespread GPLing! It doesn't fit my own objectives, but it certainly does fit other peoples'.
I must correct you on one thing, though: The GPL is not the only accepted open source "free" license.

Erunno: Developing with Windows' native UI is free (as in $0), Mac's native UI is free to develop for. It isn't just GTK here! (Okay, I may just put it with a bad group, Windows' ui library is the most irritating library on the face of the Earth).
Besides the weird list stores stuff which is completely inconsistent from the rest of the system (without the handy functions, with structs that I actually have to create myself and which get data sent to them via their memory addresses sent as function arguments which should be illegal because it's so ugly), GTK is a fantastic toolkit - especially coupled with Glade - not least because of the work gone in to accessibility.

Erunno
July 1st, 2007, 03:47 PM
Erunno: Developing with Windows' native UI is free (as in $0), Mac's native UI is free to develop for. It isn't just GTK here! (Okay, I may just put it with a bad group, Windows' ui library is the most irritating library on the face of the Earth).

That's hardly surprising as both companies have a vested interest to tie application developers and thus applications and thus users to their respective operating system.

loell
July 1st, 2007, 03:54 PM
The question is always how much will you save in the long run. The initial costs may be higher but getting a well-documented (!), commercially supported and argugaly more refined framework might be cheaper in the long run. Just stating that GTK+ is better because it's free is very short-sighted.

Qt a more refined framework than GTK or Wxwidgets? that is still debateable, i bet that argument would be endless.

community supported UI frameworks is solid as those commercially supported ones. I primary use gtk, and when it comes documentation, i always find my way around with Devhelp and even with google's codesearch for concrete examples from other projects.

so the real question is "How much will you save initially and in the long run" will depend on several factors , availability of funds needed to purchase the framework license if you choose qt , or none if you choose gtk/wxwidgets , familiarity of the framework and finally the scope of your commercial program that you intend to make.

needtolookatascreenshot
July 1st, 2007, 03:58 PM
Qt a more refined framework than GTK or Wxwidgets? that is still debateable, i bet that argument would be endless.

It probably would be and we shouldn't start it here.

However, one thing seems to be clear, Qt seems to be good enough for many companies to pay Trolltech, as otherwise Trolltech wouldn't make any money.

loell
July 1st, 2007, 04:05 PM
It probably would be and we shouldn't start it here.

However, one thing seems to be clear, Qt seems to be good enough for many companies to pay Trolltech, as otherwise Trolltech wouldn't make any money.

heheh, notice the word clear and seems, the irony eh? ;)

needtolookatascreenshot
July 1st, 2007, 04:15 PM
heheh, notice the word clear and seems, the irony eh? ;)
Oh, you're right. I'm sorry, I'm not a native speaker. Let me try to fix this:

However, one thing is clear, Qt is good enough for many companies to pay Trolltech.

Castar
July 1st, 2007, 04:17 PM
Castar, I see what you mean and that is why I think KDE has its place; I bet you really like the environment for that widespread GPLing! It doesn't fit my own objectives, but it certainly does fit other peoples'.
I must correct you on one thing, though: The GPL is not the only accepted open source "free" license.



Actually, even though I like KDE, I'm a programmer too and I have faced the same dilemma; go for Qt and open-source or something else and closed. I don't necessarily like the GPL, but I dislike the fact that many many gnome fans use (not in this thread) the license that KDE had 8 years ago to badmouth KDE.

Mr. Picklesworth
July 1st, 2007, 05:17 PM
Qt is an excellent library. It has been used for lots of single cross-platform applications that need to have a consistent interface across platforms. (After all, it is pushed as a cross-platform toolkit).

loell
July 1st, 2007, 06:07 PM
well, all these toolkits are cross-platform.

BoyOfDestiny
July 1st, 2007, 06:16 PM
Hmm, no KDE4 won't kill GNOME.
Some people will use KDE.
Some people will switch back and forth.
Some people use other DE's.
Some stick to terminal.

I will keep using GNOME because i like it's simplicity and I like the look of GTK2 (and it's Ubuntu's default... No I'm not [very] lazy. ;) )

Am I the only one that doesn't want one DE to "rule them all"? I've had my fill of "one choice" when it comes to software... Let the good times roll.
Ultimately, the changes and improvements can be shared, and/or they can just keeping competing and trying to show off (which is great IMHO.)

Extreme Coder
July 1st, 2007, 06:38 PM
well, all these toolkits are cross-platform.
As far as I've heard, GTK needs something like X11 or similar on OS X to work there.

Extreme Coder
July 1st, 2007, 06:42 PM
What irritates me that people say things like " GTK looks better/worse" or " QT looks too shiny" or anything like that. KDE can look exactly like GNOME, and vice versa. Toolkits do NOT look like anything. How they look to you depends on the selected theme, and if there is one theme available for both of them, then you will get the same look in both toolkits(and DEs)

Extreme Coder
July 1st, 2007, 06:44 PM
Castar, I see what you mean and that is why I think KDE has its place; I bet you really like the environment for that widespread GPLing! It doesn't fit my own objectives, but it certainly does fit other peoples'.
I must correct you on one thing, though: The GPL is not the only accepted open source "free" license.
Hello? Were you under a rock for the past 7 years or something? The QT was GPLed and KDE LGPLed long time ago. ( AFAIK, that makes GNOME's original point moot, which is to create a GPL KDE)

czechman86
July 1st, 2007, 06:46 PM
kde, even if it could talk and dance would not replace gnome on my computer.

tageiru
July 1st, 2007, 06:48 PM
As far as I've heard, GTK needs something like X11 or similar on OS X to work there.

You heard wrong.

http://developer.imendio.com/projects/gtk-macosx

forrestcupp
July 1st, 2007, 06:48 PM
Qt a more refined framework than GTK or Wxwidgets? that is still debateable, i bet that argument would be endless.


Well, I'm really enjoying KDE right now, but if I were going to write something cross platform, I would definitely use wxWidgets over QT. I've tried GTK2, but I think wxWidgets is the way to go if I want my project to be cross platform. For GTK or QT, the end-user has to have it installed, not just the developer. But wx uses native controls, so the end-user doesn't have to install anything extra to run a wxWidgets developed app.

If I didn't care about being cross-platform, I'd probably use QT. But I think I would go cross platform with anything I made.

Extreme Coder
July 1st, 2007, 07:20 PM
Well, I'm really enjoying KDE right now, but if I were going to write something cross platform, I would definitely use wxWidgets over QT. I've tried GTK2, but I think wxWidgets is the way to go if I want my project to be cross platform. For GTK or QT, the end-user has to have it installed, not just the developer. But wx uses native controls, so the end-user doesn't have to install anything extra to run a wxWidgets developed app.

If I didn't care about being cross-platform, I'd probably use QT. But I think I would go cross platform with anything I made.
Proof of QT needing something to be installed for it to be usable?

maniacmusician
July 1st, 2007, 07:28 PM
well, all these toolkits are cross-platform.
I'm sorry, but none of the other toolkits are nearly as capable of being cross platform as QT. There may be ways to make them work on windows, but QT is designed with cross-platform compatibility in mind, so it's naturally superior in that regard.

fyllekajan
July 1st, 2007, 07:53 PM
Yea them windows users can have it :p

















j/k ;)

deepclutch
July 1st, 2007, 08:36 PM
dont u ppl know that GNOME got a hidden(?) version released long back for Window$?
http://www.tweakers.net/ext/i.dsp/976458423.gif
http://www.tweakers.net/ext/i.dsp/976458423.gif
:D
with kde4(qt4?) going for windows,I dont like M$ OS's getting privilages that are restricted *NIX users ;)

fyllekajan
July 1st, 2007, 09:07 PM
well let's hope that KDE4 will look better than that :)

Mr. Picklesworth
July 1st, 2007, 10:01 PM
Lots of KDE may be LGPLed, which is jolly, but its native user interface toolkit is not! That is all I am bothering about right now.

DigitalDuality
July 1st, 2007, 11:28 PM
Lots of KDE may be LGPLed, which is jolly, but its native user interface toolkit is not! That is all I am bothering about right now.
wtf are you talking about? all of kde is gpl'ed or lgpl'ed

ComplexNumber
July 1st, 2007, 11:36 PM
wtf are you talking about? all of kde is gpl'ed or lgpl'ed
isn't that what he said?

loell
July 1st, 2007, 11:42 PM
As far as I've heard, GTK needs something like X11 or similar on OS X to work there.

this is not true in todays gtk+ with mac os X 10.3 or later

deanlinkous
July 2nd, 2007, 12:03 AM
yep just like gnome2 killed KDE
wheeee....back and forth we go

kevCast
July 2nd, 2007, 12:51 AM
I think I'll just stick with Fluxbox and Thunar.

forrestcupp
July 2nd, 2007, 01:57 AM
Proof of QT needing something to be installed for it to be usable?

Well, I've used GTK and wxWidgets and I know that the end-user has to have the runtime environment for GTK, but they don't for wxWidgets. I've never used QT. So QT uses native controls too?

I do know that the Windows version of QT is GPL which means if someone wants to create a commercial/proprietary app they have to pay for the commercial version of QT.

wxWidgets is LGPL which means you don't have to pay for it, and you can release proprietary software. For that reason alone, I would choose wxWidgets. I believe in Free software, but with wxWidgets I have the choice to release proprietary too if I want. I would rather learn one framework well, than to use different frameworks for different license purposes.

Extreme Coder
July 2nd, 2007, 02:24 AM
Well, I've used GTK and wxWidgets and I know that the end-user has to have the runtime environment for GTK, but they don't for wxWidgets. I've never used QT. So QT uses native controls too?

I do know that the Windows version of QT is GPL which means if someone wants to create a commercial/proprietary app they have to pay for the commercial version of QT.

wxWidgets is LGPL which means you don't have to pay for it, and you can release proprietary software. For that reason alone, I would choose wxWidgets. I believe in Free software, but with wxWidgets I have the choice to release proprietary too if I want. I would rather learn one framework well, than to use different frameworks for different license purposes.
AFAIK, QT uses the native controls for each OS (OS X = Cocoa, Windows = whatever windows uses).
I do think it's sometimes a problem to use QT because its GPLed, but one plus is that TrollTech provides commercial support, something I don't see available for GTK/WxWidgets.

CocoAUS
July 2nd, 2007, 02:31 AM
Can someone point out a single feature that they think is innovative or ground breaking? I've watched most of the KDE 4 videos out there, and there's nothing special coming in KDE 4 as far as I can tell. Gnome's not perfect, but KDE 4 certainly poses no threat to it.

deepclutch
July 2nd, 2007, 07:17 AM
^ what they are saying is beauty is not skin deep.infact the changes in kde4 is that they changed the builds to qt4 which is supposed to be cross platform.
As a GNOME user too,i admit that dolphin is something nice they brought.I hates their Konqueror for everything approach,I know krusader exists.

As with gtk,cant it get commercial support,if paid?

igknighted
July 2nd, 2007, 07:49 AM
Can someone point out a single feature that they think is innovative or ground breaking? I've watched most of the KDE 4 videos out there, and there's nothing special coming in KDE 4 as far as I can tell. Gnome's not perfect, but KDE 4 certainly poses no threat to it.

One example? How can I choose

Strigi - desktop search. Think beagle but fast, and then way more. It has a sidebar available (or will) in the file manager that will display related documents (songs by the same artist, related docs & spreads, bookmarked websites, etc). Truely useful desktop searching.

There's a 2hr video of a presentation by the KDE guys thats a few months old now, but its incredible. If you want to make this statement after you get the real info, then I will listen. But it sounds like you went to youtube where of course people posted cheesy graphical effects. Read planet KDE or get some real info before making statements like this.

And this is the dumbest thread title ever. Gnome and KDE help each other, there's no feud, and they certainly don't want to see the other go away. So no, gnome won't go away. Thats not the point. But when your favorite isn't the top, at least tip your cap to the leader. For example, I love AMD chips, but intel has them beat. I recommend C2D's to my friends right now. So its not threatening, no one is saying gnome sucks, but at least open your eyes enough to see that KDE4 is incredible, and if it is all it is cracked up to be then I would say it is the most advanced user interace in the world, blowing away OSX and Vista easily.

GeneralZod
July 2nd, 2007, 08:06 AM
open your eyes enough to see that KDE4 is incredible, and if it is all it is cracked up to be then I would say it is the most advanced user interace in the world, blowing away OSX and Vista easily.

Er ... let's not go nuts, here. There's certainly a lot to look forward to in KDE4, but I find your comments rather over-enthusiastic, especially seeing as it hasn't even been released yet ;)

igknighted
July 2nd, 2007, 08:11 AM
Er ... let's not go nuts, here. There's certainly a lot to look forward to in KDE4, but I find your comments rather over-enthusiastic, especially seeing as it hasn't even been released yet ;)

I believe I said "IF", and that is a big if. But compare the plans with the features of those OS's, and I think you will reach that conclusion as well. Also, don't expect it all in KDE 4.0. Not everything will be there until 4.2 or so (last I heard), so don't leap to conclusions right after release. But strictly on a feature basis, KDE4 intrigues me far more than anything else, at any cost.

deepclutch
July 3rd, 2007, 02:33 PM
Isnt there any chance of emerging of any gtk2(qt can be only with kde;right? (they[ trolltech is the main force for qt/kde] wont promote forks) Desktop Environment which takes pros from GNOME,kde and other wm's and be as easy as even for a kiddo! :p.


caveat as a GNOME user too,i dont understand why Miguel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miguel_de_Icaza) wants to integrate more and more Mono(.net cr#p?) into GNOME?
I never wants mono to be integrated into GNOME :x
Why do we want registry for GNOME?for Nostalgia(windows registry mess) :?
Now even a registry cleaner for gconf(gnome xml registry) is available :o

about:
GConf Cleaner is a tool to clean a GConf database which is possibly cluttered with unnecessary or invalid keys.Homepage:
http://code.google.com/p/gconf-cleaner/ (http://freshmeat.net/redir/gconf-cleaner/69072/url_homepage/gconf-cleaner)
I tried a run on my debian sid,it cleaned around 700 entries :?
^^ true,true it remebers something called ccleaner and other s/w in window$?
I know that GNOME uses xml formats for making it "simple" for Users?but see,isnt this too much.:(


I wish gtk2 libs to be more better.I wish a New Desktop Environment based on gtk2 emerges for compete with Kde4.
GNOME may not be expected to change.even xfce does.what ya say?

Dragonbite
July 3rd, 2007, 02:59 PM
... caveat as a GNOME user too,i dont understand why Miguel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miguel_de_Icaza) wants to integrate more and more Mono(.net cr#p?) into GNOME?Because that's what he's getting paid to do?! F-Spot is already automatic in Fiesty I believe, not sure about Tomboy and Banshee though. One thing slowing down the uptake, I believe, is the shortcoming of Monodevelop; make Monodevelop more like Visual Studio and you'll get more "weekend warriors" like me tyring to build Mono apps on our Linux boxes.

I can understand, though, him taking his current project (Mono) and working tightly with it with a very familiar project (Gnome). Anybody would be a fool to NOT take advantage of his intimate knowledge.

With everything going on between Novell and Microsoft (more specifically, my lack of understanding all the mumble-jumble going on between them), I am getting leary of Mono even though I really hope it is successful (not ready to teach myself Java yet).

Anyway, I didn't know about the registry-like thing in Gnome though, that doesn't sound good.

vexorian
July 3rd, 2007, 03:09 PM
MONO doesn't really have patent issues, the part with issues would be the winforms emulation and many things that are only required to run .net exes, keeping just mono with gtk# doesn't really have issues.

Although I don't really love the idea of gnome bringing it, I think I will have to switch...

deepclutch
July 3rd, 2007, 03:18 PM
I dont know much about .net,but i am suspicious about mono(s/w patents?)..what will be the future of GNOME?seriously,I dont know :(
even the GNOME registry(pardon me,if its not allowed to be called *registry* ) resembles Windows.wat's this all ::
I hope someone knows the answers :?

forrestcupp
July 3rd, 2007, 03:25 PM
I dont know much about .net,but i am suspicious about mono(s/w patents?)..what will be the future of GNOME?seriously,I dont know :(
even the GNOME registry(pardon me,if its not allowed to be called *registry* ) resembles Windows.wat's this all ::
I hope someone knows the answers :?

just like vexorian said right above you, there are no patent problems with Mono. The only problem they had in the beginning was with the windows forms part. They've dealt with that, so there are no problems.

Mono is not Microsoft. Mono is not evil. It's just an attempt to make something with growing popularity become cross-platform. It's no more evil than OpenOffice being cross-platform. No matter what people say, .NET has done a lot to make programming apps more efficient.

tageiru
July 3rd, 2007, 05:53 PM
open your eyes enough to see that KDE4 is incredible, and if it is all it is cracked up to be then I would say it is the most advanced user interace in the world, blowing away OSX and Vista easily.
I think you are confusing KDE with the iPhone.

Prisma
December 11th, 2007, 09:27 PM
The way I see it, the problem with KDE is that it looks and feels like a mess, like those college dorms that nobody care to clean in months with dirty clothes, books and condoms everywhere. :lolflag: KDE feels like if the developers wanted to throw everything on the GUIs of the applications. Take a look at Amarok, for example, my preferred KDE application.

http://www.kdecn.org/dot/img/vol12_356_amarok.png

Its just plain visual contamination. Lots of information, menus, buttons etc. Now compare it with itunes.

http://advertboy.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/itunes500.jpg

Itunes just look and feel cleaner, more professional. Its not that I like Itunes, in fact i dislike it very much, but my point is that KDE have always look messy and outdated, like if developers have been living in the 1980's.

Compare konqueror with Nautilus or any other file manager including the ones on OSX and Windows.

http://www.linuxlinks.com/portal/content/reviews/converting/Screenshots/Screenshot-Konqueror.png

Konqueror looks like if somebody was trying to play a bad joke on users specially newbies. :lolflag:

I hope developers do a good job this time with KDE 4. I really think is their last chance to seriously gain market share.

Dimitriid
December 11th, 2007, 10:06 PM
Prisma makes an excellent point: Less is more in the case of a gui. Gnome will remain one of the best aesthetic choices for people who want simplicity + functionality, not one or the other.

Id love if the KDE guys would work on a MDE ( Minimalist Desktop Environent ) or so to speak, just a mod that strips it to what you actually do use 99% of the time.

Lostincyberspace
December 11th, 2007, 10:10 PM
Kde will never kill gnome and gnome will never kill kde.

khurrum1990
December 11th, 2007, 10:14 PM
The only distro on which gnome looks good is Ubuntu, on any other distro I would never use gnome just look at openSUSE. I prefer KDE though. I think it has more stable applications and is more customizable.

qazwsx
December 11th, 2007, 11:03 PM
Both will survive. At least I hope so as KDE fanboy ( we need bot of them at least for flamewars :popcorn:)

SomeGuyDude
December 11th, 2007, 11:09 PM
KDE4 is really threatening to convert me. I'm not sure if I want to wait until it comes out fully (probably in Hardy), but I really want to try it out. I've got a Kubuntu CD sitting on hand and everything.

Luggy
December 11th, 2007, 11:16 PM
no because KDE 4 will still be uglier than sin.

SomeGuyDude
December 11th, 2007, 11:20 PM
no because KDE 4 will still be uglier than sin.

I dunno, KDE4 looks pretty dang nice to me, and I've hated it in general.

Lster
December 11th, 2007, 11:22 PM
No, I don't think so. KDE will still be like KDE, and GNOME like GNOME. They have two very different concepts behind them...

Lster
December 11th, 2007, 11:23 PM
I dunno, KDE4 looks pretty dang nice to me, and I've hated it in general.

Some of those prerelease screenshots are very tempting...

SomeGuyDude
December 11th, 2007, 11:27 PM
Some of those prerelease screenshots are very tempting...

I'm over in the Desktop Environment board trying to make sense of the directions on Kubuntu's page so I can just install the RC in Ubuntu. Confusing stuff, hopefully it'll all work out.

ericesque
December 11th, 2007, 11:48 PM
I HAVE to be missing something with KDE 4. I've seen the new file manager. I've seen the icons with...well, additional icons attached to the corners. I've seen new themes. I understand that app development should be easier and inter-app communication simplified.

I'm sorry, I still can't get excited for it. What is it that everybody else *NEEDS* from KDE4 that I've overlooked?

GNOME is in no jeopardy on my desktop...

fatality_uk
December 12th, 2007, 12:05 AM
For some reason, I never liked KDE. Don't know why and it's a "gut" feeling thing. Stupid I know, but hey!!!

SomeGuyDude
December 12th, 2007, 12:07 AM
I HAVE to be missing something with KDE 4. I've seen the new file manager. I've seen the icons with...well, additional icons attached to the corners. I've seen new themes. I understand that app development should be easier and inter-app communication simplified.

I'm sorry, I still can't get excited for it. What is it that everybody else *NEEDS* from KDE4 that I've overlooked?

GNOME is in no jeopardy on my desktop...

Nothing I need. It just looks very slick to me. If it's going to be too difficult to get it installed I'll say heck with it, but I'm certainly intrigued.

23meg
December 12th, 2007, 12:15 AM
I like GNOME. My mother likes KDE. We both like XFCE.

This is my best contribution to this valuable thread so far.

23meg
December 12th, 2007, 12:15 AM
Oh, and 44% of my relatives like KDE too.

atlfalcons866
December 12th, 2007, 12:17 AM
The way I see it, the problem with KDE is that it looks and feels like a mess, like those college dorms that nobody care to clean in months with dirty clothes, books and condoms everywhere. :lolflag: KDE feels like if the developers wanted to throw everything on the GUIs of the applications. Take a look at Amarok, for example, my preferred KDE application.

http://www.kdecn.org/dot/img/vol12_356_amarok.png

Its just plain visual contamination. Lots of information, menus, buttons etc. Now compare it with itunes.

http://advertboy.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/itunes500.jpg

Itunes just look and feel cleaner, more professional. Its not that I like Itunes, in fact i dislike it very much, but my point is that KDE have always look messy and outdated, like if developers have been living in the 1980's.

Compare konqueror with Nautilus or any other file manager including the ones on OSX and Windows.

http://www.linuxlinks.com/portal/content/reviews/converting/Screenshots/Screenshot-Konqueror.png

Konqueror looks like if somebody was trying to play a bad joke on users specially newbies. :lolflag:

I hope developers do a good job this time with KDE 4. I really think is their last chance to seriously gain market share.

thats because kde has a focus on custimizeablity while gnome aims to be simple.

Gadren
December 12th, 2007, 12:21 AM
For some reason, I never liked KDE. Don't know why and it's a "gut" feeling thing. Stupid I know, but hey!!!

You know, it's interesting -- I used to feel the same. Or at least similarly: I "wanted" to use KDE, but I always got so irritated by it. But this latest time, with installing Kubuntu, everything feels "right" for me now.

And I'm really excited about KDE 4. :)

Fonon
December 12th, 2007, 12:26 AM
I dunno...I don't think that KDE will kill GNOME. They are two very different DE's, with different aims.

I'm a GNOME person, but I am curious about KDE 4. When it comes out for Hardy, or perhaps even before that, I will definiatly try it out.

On second thought, I just found the live cd for the KDE4 on Kubuntu. I'll run it in VirtualBox, and report back with my views.

new2*buntu
December 12th, 2007, 12:41 AM
I don't think that KDE will kill Gnome. I am currently using Gnome, and I like the look of the Gnome desktop and its applications. I also like how the Gnome buttons are large and legible, unlike KDE's colored interface.

But.... I will probably start using XFCE once Linux Mint XFCE reaches final...:)

SomeGuyDude
December 12th, 2007, 01:14 AM
thats because kde has a focus on custimizeablity while gnome aims to be simple.

I never understood this. Can't something be customizable without starting off looking all "kitchen sink"?

I agree with the earlier poster talking about "visual contamination" and that's why I never used KDE, but KDE4 looks like it might be a little cleaner. My problem has always been that its apps look like they wanted to smash absolutely everything possible into a single window and didn't worry about how it would look.

The first time I opened amaroK I admit I adored it, but after a while I realized that I used such a minority of its pieces that I had no reason to overlook the traffic jam its window looked like. I still consider amaroK amongst the best audio programs out there, but until it neatens up a bit I'm staying away. This was my KDE attitude.

Now that things seem like they went "hey wait, some people want it to look aesthetically pleasing, too", I think it's worth a look-see.

bruce89
December 12th, 2007, 01:26 AM
If you ask me, KDE4 is just KDE implementing some backend stuff that GNOME does already.

Fonon
December 12th, 2007, 02:06 AM
KDE4 feels and looks good, alright. I'll definatly be using this as it is once we get some blank CDs, and I find the x86-64 bit version.

But it definatly won't be killing GNOME, by any standard. KDE will be more popular, though, by my prediction.

Darkhack
December 12th, 2007, 02:32 AM
I really don't see myself switching to KDE 4. I care very little about the desktop and more about the actual applications that run on top. I'm an IceWM fanboy because it has enough features to make it easy for me to access what I need (easy to edit menus and lots of settings) while still being super lightweight. I'll give KDE 4 a shot though once it hits 4.2 (I don't think 4.0 or 4.1 will be all that stable).

atlfalcons866
December 12th, 2007, 02:47 AM
i will be switching to kde4 when hardy comes out

Kujen
December 12th, 2007, 03:00 AM
I'm downloading KDE 4 RC2 as I type this.

pt123
December 12th, 2007, 03:09 AM
I sure hope it does Gnome irritates me now:

They are backward:
They don't support setting the number of scroll lines on the mouse scroll.

They don't support different wallpapers for the different workspaces. Which would be the best way to provide better distinction.

Nautiluls development has nealrly halted. I hate Konqueror but I am looling forward to Dolphin.

Tracker project is dead.

Gnome has too many average music players while in KDE there is better developer unity to create something like Amarok.

boast
December 12th, 2007, 03:14 AM
I'm downloading KDE 4 RC2 as I type this.

same here.

I don't like 3.5, I hope 4 is good.

BLTicklemonster
December 12th, 2007, 03:33 AM
I've been back and forth a few times checking out kde, and I honestly don't see what all the buzz is about. It's kind of cluttered feeling, and wizards the heck out of me for no good reason. Kynaptic or whatever it's called leaves me wondering just what the heck I've got and what I don't ... got. I keep trying kde, but always come back to either gnome or icewm (which isn't a de, I know, I know)

cookies
December 12th, 2007, 03:47 AM
I've been back and forth a few times checking out kde, and I honestly don't see what all the buzz is about. It's kind of cluttered feeling, and wizards the heck out of me for no good reason. Kynaptic or whatever it's called leaves me wondering just what the heck I've got and what I don't ... got. I keep trying kde, but always come back to either gnome or icewm (which isn't a de, I know, I know)

Kynaptic isn't used anymore.... Are you talking about Adept?

Anyway, this about KDE 4, you seem to be describing KDE 3. (And an OLD version, at that)

atlfalcons866
December 12th, 2007, 03:54 AM
Tracker project is dead.
.

how is tracker dead?

new2*buntu
December 12th, 2007, 03:56 AM
I hate how all the KDE apps start with a K. It really gets annoying!

BLTicklemonster
December 12th, 2007, 03:57 AM
You're right, I haven't been able to get kde4, so I'm basing what I say on kde3.

I'm eagerly awaiting 4's arrival, though, as I have seen great stuff about it, but then it's kde people who cheer it on, and to be honest with you, I really don't expect to be keeping 4 on any longer than to look it over, shake my head then remove it. With an open mind, of course. :)

atlfalcons866
December 12th, 2007, 04:00 AM
1 month to kde4

boast
December 12th, 2007, 04:02 AM
I hate how all the KDE apps start with a K. It really gets annoying!

it reminds me of the great integration apple has with its i-programs

atlfalcons866
December 12th, 2007, 04:06 AM
itunes, ichat,ivideo,ipod.imac,iphone

PurposeOfReason
December 12th, 2007, 04:06 AM
Neither has anything on Fluxbox IMO. It's light, simple, clean, and lets me put my resources to better uses.

SOULRiDER
December 12th, 2007, 04:16 AM
Honestly,t he only thing I wish KDE had that GNOME desont is emblems, thats all. Its a lot more customizable so if you like how GNOME feels you can make KDE feel as GNOME.
I think however, GNOME looks in a way 'cleanear' and more professional in a way.

DeadSuperHero
December 12th, 2007, 06:05 AM
Sweet! RC2 is out!
One thing I actually really look forward to is trying KDE4 with BSD, PC-BSD particularly. I hear it already loads KDE3 pretty darn fast, and with that 20-30% performance increase in KDE4...*drools*
In any case, it'll be fun to toy around with for a long time.

CarpKing
December 12th, 2007, 06:23 AM
it reminds me of the great integration apple has with its i-programs

Actually that's one of the things that annoys me the most about Apple.

SomeGuyDude
December 12th, 2007, 06:26 AM
Actually that's one of the things that annoys me the most about Apple.

Agreed. Hate it with KDE as well. It makes my program list look TERRIBLE to the eye. Sifting through 60 pieces of software that all start with K is just painful.

LuisAugusto
December 12th, 2007, 07:59 AM
KDE 4 is amazing. The technology behind it's impressive.

KDE 4.0 is nice, but it's just a preview of the real potential of 4.x series. Plasma would be particularly attractive for users, aside from what most people believe, it can go far beyond of just a desktop and panel...

Will it kill GNOME? No, it won't, but it's definitively a lot more interesting.