Will KDE4 Kill GNOME?

[pt123]

how is tracker dead?

well you sure know how to time your post.

The last update 0.63 was in September.

Today there was a release 0.64 after 3 months.

http://www.gnome.org/projects/tracker/

hopefully it will get ported

[GSF1200S]

The way I see it, the problem with KDE is that it looks and feels like a mess, like those college dorms that nobody care to clean in months with dirty clothes, books and condoms everywhere. :lolflag: KDE feels like if the developers wanted to throw everything on the GUIs of the applications. Take a look at Amarok, for example, my preferred KDE application.

http://www.kdecn.org/dot/img/vol12_356_amarok.png

Its just plain visual contamination. Lots of information, menus, buttons etc. Now compare it with itunes.

http://advertboy.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/itunes500.jpg

Itunes just look and feel cleaner, more professional. Its not that I like Itunes, in fact i dislike it very much, but my point is that KDE have always look messy and outdated, like if developers have been living in the 1980's.

Compare konqueror with Nautilus or any other file manager including the ones on OSX and Windows.

http://www.linuxlinks.com/portal/content/reviews/converting/Screenshots/Screenshot-Konqueror.png

Konqueror looks like if somebody was trying to play a bad joke on users specially newbies. :lolflag:

I hope developers do a good job this time with KDE 4. I really think is their last chance to seriously gain market share.

Im going to argue a little here though. Yeah, itunes may look more simple, but thats because it contains HALF the features. And comparing Konqueror to Nautilus? Thats not even an argument. Konqueror has so many options, and is so powerful as a file manager. In Nautilus, you cant even restore things from the trash. Konqueror doesnt have to look that complicated if you dont want it to, and that applies to the whole KDE desktop (Check the screenshot).

I do agree with the asthetics of Gnome being superior, and I think it is absolutely perfect for many people. In response to the original post, this is a fundamental reason that Gnome will always exist.

Im not sure what will happen with KDE4, but I think many people dont give KDE a fair chance. It is without a doubt one of the most configurable and complete DE's, but it does have its problems, and there are areas where Gnome excels far beyond it...

[vishzilla]

Wonder with the final release of KDE4, will the DE share especially in Ubuntu's case tilt a bit!

[undine]

After testing KDE4 I can say that it might actually be interesting, if it reaches the point where it doesn't completely suck.

[khurrum1990]

I find KDE 4 interface looks better than Aqua, KDE's applications are always very stable, maybe there naming system needs to improve, but other wise as a desktop environment its excellent.

[PartisanEntity]

I am big GNOME fan because I like its spartanism, minimalism and simplicity. To each his own.

[khurrum1990]

I don't think any desktop environment can ever finish the other one off though. Everyone has their own choice, the most u can do is make someone like ur desktop environment but u can't really finish off gnome or kde.

[undine]

I don't think any desktop environment can ever finish the other one off though. Everyone has their own choice, the most u can do is make someone like ur desktop environment but u can't really finish off gnome or kde.

KDE4 sucks so hard that it will likely finish itself off.

[Prisma]

Im going to argue a little here though. Yeah, itunes may look more simple, but thats because it contains HALF the features. And comparing Konqueror to Nautilus? Thats not even an argument. Konqueror has so many options, and is so powerful as a file manager. In Nautilus, you cant even restore things from the trash. Konqueror doesnt have to look that complicated if you dont want it to, and that applies to the whole KDE desktop.

Well let me illustrate my point once more.

KDE:

http://www.coolest-gadgets.com/wp-content/uploads/gig-swiss-knife.jpg


Gnome 2.X, OSX, Windows Vista:

http://the-gadgeteer.com/assets/swissmemory-sbeat-mp3-player3.jpg

enough said! :lolflag:

[khurrum1990]

KDE4 sucks so hard that it will likely finish itself off.
KDE 4 sucks? Have u lost it? Just take a look around in these forums, most gnome users all ike KDE 4 looks infact on gnome-look.org I have seen a kwin theme for gnome to make it look like kde 4 and people r dying for that look. No one gives a damn about what one person like u thinks ok.

[undine]

KDE 4 sucks? Have u lost it? Just take a look around in these forums, most gnome users all ike KDE 4 looks infact on gnome-look.org I have seen a kwin theme for gnome to make it look like kde 4 and people r dying for that look. No one gives a damn about what one person like u thinks ok.

Have you actually tested it? Didn't think so. I am not saying that it looks bad, in fact I love the look, but it performs bad -- it is unstable, buggy, and has serious design and functionality issues. You are better off running Gnome with the oxygen look.

[khurrum1990]

Have you actually tested it? Didn't think so. I am not saying that it looks bad, in fact I love the look, but it performs bad -- it is unstable, buggy, and has serious design and functionality issues. You are better off running Gnome with the oxygen look.
Its only unstable cause its not even final yet. I have tested it on the openSUSE live cd. We will see whether its unstable after the final release cause thats what counts.

[kpkeerthi]

I will keep GNOME. I hate 'Kapplications'.

sudo pacman -Q | grep 'kde*' | sudo xargs pacman -Rsn

(Sorry I use ArchLinux)

[shafin]

I have used KDE 4,and the possibilities with plasma is amazing.
But thats all.I am staying with Gnome,I only hope that it gets something like plasma,maybe the screenlets can be strengthened.

[bash]

I have used KDE 4,and the possibilities with plasma is amazing.
But thats all.I am staying with Gnome,I only hope that it gets something like plasma,maybe the screenlets can be strengthened.

I ran the openSuse KDE4live of Beta4. Only a quick peak though. Im curious though, what can you do with Plasma that you can't do with screenlets?

And I personally must I agree with Prisma. I prefer GNOME atm over KDE because you can make it look really minimalistic, while still having a powerfull DE. For example even if I try to remove all the bars in Konqurer Im still left with wide margin around the whole window. But Im don't THAT much about KDE, so maybe I simply haven't found the right commands.

So I have a questions to the KDE guys. Can you make Konquerer look like I got Nautilus atm? Just one bar at the top and no margin around the rest of the window. Screenshot of what I mean:

http://img65.imageshack.us/img65/217/bildschirmfoto1ef7.th.png (http://img65.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bildschirmfoto1ef7.png)

[hanzomon4]

Nice wallpaper, where you get?

[silviur]

I guess I'm a nostalgic, and I'm using Gnome for only 3 months, but regardless of the winner, I'll use Gnome to the bitter end ;)

[maniacmusician]

I ran the openSuse KDE4live of Beta4. Only a quick peak though. Im curious though, what can you do with Plasma that you can't do with screenlets?

And I personally must I agree with Prisma. I prefer GNOME atm over KDE because you can make it look really minimalistic, while still having a powerfull DE. For example even if I try to remove all the bars in Konqurer Im still left with wide margin around the whole window. But Im don't THAT much about KDE, so maybe I simply haven't found the right commands.

So I have a questions to the KDE guys. Can you make Konquerer look like I got Nautilus atm? Just one bar at the top and no margin around the rest of the window. Screenshot of what I mean:

http://img65.imageshack.us/img65/217/bildschirmfoto1ef7.th.png (http://img65.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bildschirmfoto1ef7.png)


you mean like this?

[Linuxratty]

In my opinion competition is good for both KDE and Gnome which will keep both teams on their toes... Seriously I think this sort of friendly competition serves a purpose. So I am glad Gnome and KDE co-exist the way they do although I prefer KDE personally.

I agree...I see no reason Linux should just have KDE...having used both, I also prefer KDE due to it's "tweakability. "
You can change the size of the task bar,make it transparent (as I have done) Move it around,or even hide it...For me,there can never be too
many buttons,as I love to experiment.
http://s76.photobucket.com/albums/j25/Blueroo22/Linux%20screenshots/?action=view&current=snapshot5-1.png

[boast]

I agree...I see no reason Linux should just have KDE...having used both, I also prefer KDE due to it's "tweakability. "


people trying to get companies to support linux won't have a battle of gtk or qt?

[cluepon]

This whole thread reminds me of the religious arguments between Mac and Windows folks in the mid to late 90's. Topics and threads like these are silly.

What is always lost in these discussions, especially this one, is that it's always prudent to use the right tool for the job. Will KDE kill GNOME? No. Will GNOME kill KDE? No. Do they each have their purpose? Yes.

There is a reason why there are three basic Ubuntu flavors. Why? Because you should always use the right tool for the job. Ubuntu is nice, has a nice easy learning curve, and is very good at what it does. I would use Ubuntu for folks new to Linux. I personally find GNOME too limited. That's okay though, its by design. I can accept that. But, I wouldnt rule it out, if faced with a situation that called for it. I like having alot of control over my environment, so I use Kubuntu on my personal system. And, if I have a much older system, I have Xubuntu to choose from...and again...I have to accept that my assesment is only based on what I see. You have to evaluate it based on circumstance.

It's not about which is best. Its about which is best for specific criteria and situations. It has always been, and always will be about using the right tool for the job.

People who engage in self limiting arguments about which environment "beats" the other are, by arguing from such a limited perspective...ipso facto, least likely to have a relevant opinion as to what's best.

[aysiu]

This whole thread reminds me of the religious arguments between Mac and Windows folks in the mid to late 90's. Topics and threads like these are silly. I'm moving it to Recurring Discussions, as it basically boils down to yet another "KDE v. Gnome" thread.

[qazwsx]

I will keep GNOME. I hate 'Kapplications'.

I ilke appliKations. It tells me that the app is likely KDE appliKation. This kind of naming makes things more clear. I think gnome needs more gapplications. I hate that fact that there is no K in Dolphin.

[aysiu]

I think gnome needs more gapplications. You mean like eog, gcalctool, gconf-editor, gdebi, gedit, gimp, gthumb, ekiga, or gnomebaker?

[bash]

Nice wallpaper, where you get?

Click on the link in my signature and then when your on my blog, click on desktop. There are then links to the icon theme, gtk theme, wallpaper and so on ...

[qazwsx]

You mean like eog, gcalctool, gconf-editor, gdebi, gedit, gimp, gthumb, ekiga, or gnomebaker?

:)
Good point but then there are apps like F-Spot, Tomboy, Epiphany etc. I like the fact that clearly most of the KDE apps use K or k.

[aysiu]

Well, there are always adept, dolphin, and gwenview.

[bash]

Like kRappy? While with you have cool names like gOod or gReat. This clearly shows that GNOME is 2 trillzillionquadrupple windoze units more greater than KDE!!!!!!!111111*****

[bruce89]

Nautiluls development has nealrly halted. I hate Konqueror but I am looling forward to Dolphin.

http://blogs.gnome.org/alexl/2007/11/23/file-operations-in-nautilus-gio-and-adventures-in-the-land-of-policykit/

Why mess with perfection anyway?

[LuisAugusto]

I ran the openSuse KDE4live of Beta4. Only a quick peak though. Im curious though, what can you do with Plasma that you can't do with screenlets?



OMG, If Aaron (Plasma main developer) read this his going to have a hearth attack XD

Plasma can be used on a lot of things, not just the desktop, Amarok has its plasma containment for Example, KDM and Knotify will end using Plasma too.

Containments are Plasmoids with the capability of having Plasmoids inside, the Panel and Desktop are the 2 first Containments, more will eventually come (Amarok Context view, KDM, etc, Docks).

[GSF1200S]

http://blogs.gnome.org/alexl/2007/11/23/file-operations-in-nautilus-gio-and-adventures-in-the-land-of-policykit/

Why mess with perfection anyway?

Wow.. looks promising! Ive been a KDE head for awhile, mainly because of Nautilus. I still think it sucks I cant restore items from the trash, but then thats just one small little thing. I wonder if this will just be an upgrade to the existing Nautilus coming out in Hardy's beta cycle... Good stuff though!

[23meg]

Wow.. looks promising! Ive been a KDE head for awhile, mainly because of Nautilus. I still think it sucks I cant restore items from the trash, but then thats just one small little thing. I wonder if this will just be an upgrade to the existing Nautilus coming out in Hardy's beta cycle... Good stuff though!

Restoring from trash is one of the things that the new GIO will enable. It's mentioned in the comments that it's being worked on.

If it makes it into GNOME 2.22, it will of course be in Hardy, but as you can see in the comments, there are no promises.

[bash]

http://blogs.gnome.org/alexl/2007/11/23/file-operations-in-nautilus-gio-and-adventures-in-the-land-of-policykit/

Why mess with perfection anyway?

I would love if they would implement tabs in nautilus. Just not a big fan of having 5 different open windows taking up the space in my panel.


OMG, If Aaron (Plasma main developer) read this his going to have a hearth attack XD

Plasma can be use on a lot of things, not just the desktop, Amarok has its plasma containment for Example, KDM and Knotify will end using Plasma too.

Containments are Plasmoids with the capability of having Plasmoids inside, the Panel and Desktop are the 2 first Containments, more will eventually come (Amarok Context view, KDM, etc, Docks).

*blames it all on the person standing next to me* It was all his idea ;)

Nah but seriously sounds intresting. I have seen the new panel. I like the idea. On the screens I have seen the icons on the panel seem a bit out of proportion and messy. But maybe thats because it is still in development.

Are there any screenshots or videos of other plasma features? Would be intrested in seeing them. And I really like the look of the plasma items. The black with the glass style border seems really slick. I would love if the whole KDE 4 theme would look like that.

[maniacmusician]

I would love if they would implement tabs in nautilus. Just not a big fan of having 5 different open windows taking up the space in my panel.




*blames it all on the person standing next to me* It was all his idea ;)

Nah but seriously sounds intresting. I have seen the new panel. I like the idea. On the screens I have seen the icons on the panel seem a bit out of proportion and messy. But maybe thats because it is still in development.

Are there any screenshots or videos of other plasma features? Would be intrested in seeing them. And I really like the look of the plasma items. The black with the glass style border seems really slick. I would love if the whole KDE 4 theme would look like that.
They came up with that theme quickly to make it look decent throughout development. They're planning to implement a better theme once they're done with all the groundwork for KDE4, so probably in KDE4.1, the theme will change.

Also, I answered your question about "can you make konqueror look like nautilus [screenshot]", and the answer is yes, quite easily, and I attached my own screenshot.

edit: which may be irrelevant, since Konqueror won't be the default file manager in KDE4.

[LuisAugusto]

Are there any screenshots or videos of other plasma features? Would be intrested in seeing them. And I really like the look of the plasma items. The black with the glass style border seems really slick. I would love if the whole KDE 4 theme would look like that.

Well, Plasma is just heating up. KDM, Knotify and Amarok with Plasma aren't any functional yet, even tough it's trivial to implement them (from a developer point of view), but because Plasma itself change constantly it breaks others work (Amarok for example, has some Plasmoids, but they're broken right now).


So most amazing Plasma stuff will come for 4.1 and after.

However, there's a video screencast (http://youtube.com/watch?v=HGYGzTDHhPg) about Plasma Containments, and everything is explained by Aaron itself.

[bash]

They came up with that theme quickly to make it look decent throughout development. They're planning to implement a better theme once they're done with all the groundwork for KDE4, so probably in KDE4.1, the theme will change.

Also, I answered your question about "can you make konqueror look like nautilus [screenshot]", and the answer is yes, quite easily, and I attached my own screenshot.

edit: which may be irrelevant, since Konqueror won't be the default file manager in KDE4.

Oh oversaw that screenshots. Well can you also remove that statusbar at the bottom of Konqueror? Coz the it would be like I have it in nautilus

[bruce89]

Restoring from trash is one of the things that the new GIO will enable. It's mentioned in the comments that it's being worked on.

If it makes it into GNOME 2.22, it will of course be in Hardy, but as you can see in the comments, there are no promises.

I suspect that this will be for GNOME 2.24, as it requires a new GLib with GIO, which usually comes out at the same time as GTK+ does (every year).

[Artificial Intelligence]

Will KDE4 Kill GNOME?

No.

[pt123]

http://blogs.gnome.org/alexl/2007/11/23/file-operations-in-nautilus-gio-and-adventures-in-the-land-of-policykit/

Why mess with perfection anyway?

In Gutsy Nautilus(2.20) is very slow. I actually like Nautilus over Konqueror. They also screwed up the emblems in 2.20 (Gutsy)

Konq tries to own the OS, it tries to do everything, like a power freak.

The most ugliest app. I have seen that is in widespread use.

[deepclutch]

well for me,kde is not in my mind,even if it is superior.I don't want to download whole crap kdelibs and qtlibs in my gtk2+ system :x and:
Nautiluls development has nealrly halted.
I dont get u.Nautilus afaik is getting better in each release.it is now stable(almost).Gnome devels here,please give some updates on Nautilus FM :D
and....I likes Gnome for its simplicity,yet customizable with gconf for freaks.that rocks!yes Gnome rocks!I felt very bad when Ubuntu made Kaboontu for kde fanboys!I hope Ubuntu remain as Gnome DE only+Xfce or any other qtlibs independent window managers as options. :D yeah!trolltech owns kde though kde fanboys will argue.all major devels are held in norway HQ of Kde.It is like a closed source.
I like the ideas of GNU and RMS,and always want to support Gnome as it is a FSF pioneer Project also.
Still,Gnome needs many tweaks and by version 2.24,Gnome will attain a perfect desktop status :)
Also gtk+ library should get developed fast in order to compete with qt4! :) see my sig!I dont take wise men's advice for taking K instead.when i was a n00b back in 2002,that time itself kde fanboys in my office are asking me to shift to kde hence to get mindlocked!I can not move from Gnome.

sorry aysiu (http://ubuntuforums.org/member.php?u=21941) lady ;)

[maniacmusician]

well for me,kde is not in my mind,even if it is superior.I don't want to download whole crap kdelibs and qtlibs in my gtk2+ system :x and:

I dont get u.Nautilus afaik is getting better in each release.it is now stable(almost).Gnome devels here,please give some updates on Nautilus FM :D
and....I likes Gnome for its simplicity,yet customizable with gconf for freaks.that rocks!yes Gnome rocks!I felt very bad when Ubuntu made Kaboontu for kde fanboys!I hope Ubuntu remain as Gnome DE only+Xfce or any other qtlibs independent window managers as options. :D yeah!trolltech owns kde though kde fanboys will argue.all major devels are held in norway HQ of Kde.It is like a closed source.
I like the ideas of GNU and RMS,and always want to support Gnome as it is a FSF pioneer Project also.
Still,Gnome needs many tweaks and by version 2.24,Gnome will attain a perfect desktop status :)
Also gtk+ library should get developed fast in order to compete with qt4! :) see my sig!I dont take wise men's advice for taking K instead.when i was a n00b back in 2002,that time itself kde fanboys in my office are asking me to shift to kde hence to get mindlocked!I can not move from Gnome.

sorry aysiu (http://ubuntuforums.org/member.php?u=21941) lady ;)
First of all, aysiu is male, not female.

Secondly, it's argumentative fanboys like you that create friction between the Gnome and KDE communities. Stop making inane and usless comments like kde "is like a closed source." That's rubbish. Gnome and KDE are both really cool open source projects that both have their advantages and disadvantages.

Trolltech does not "own" kde. KDE is a separate institution with its own financial board and development team. They do work very closely with the Qt developers at Trolltech, which is obviously a wise decision to increase the efficiency and integration of Qt. Qt itself is an open source initiative, so it seems like you don't really know what you're talking about.

It's only detrimental to your own computing experience that you're locking yourself into Gnome and advocating the exclusion of KDE from popular distros like Ubuntu. A lot of people choose to use both KDE and Gnome, such as myself, because we find them both to be useful and usable in different ways and situations.

Nothing that you've said in your post even makes sense logically (having to download kdelibs...do you think gnome doesn't have its own libraries that it needs to run? Trolltech owns KDE? Gnome will be perfect by 2.24? That's all absolute rubbish). By restricting yourself to one DE like it's some sort of religion, you're only wrapping your eyes in a struggle you will never understand.

Open your eyes and try to understand the concept of open source.

To everyone else: sorry for the rant. This kind of attitude has really been getting on my nerves lately, so I had to get that out of my system. There's no point in facilitating infighting between open source projects when we should really be working to increase cooperation and make all software better for everyone.

[LuisAugusto]

well for me,kde is not in my mind,even if it is superior.I don't want to download whole crap kdelibs and qtlibs in my gtk2+ system :x and:

I dont get u.Nautilus afaik is getting better in each release.it is now stable(almost).Gnome devels here,please give some updates on Nautilus FM :D
and....I likes Gnome for its simplicity,yet customizable with gconf for freaks.that rocks!yes Gnome rocks!I felt very bad when Ubuntu made Kaboontu for kde fanboys!I hope Ubuntu remain as Gnome DE only+Xfce or any other qtlibs independent window managers as options. :D yeah!trolltech owns kde though kde fanboys will argue.all major devels are held in norway HQ of Kde.It is like a closed source.
I like the ideas of GNU and RMS,and always want to support Gnome as it is a FSF pioneer Project also.
Still,Gnome needs many tweaks and by version 2.24,Gnome will attain a perfect desktop status :)
Also gtk+ library should get developed fast in order to compete with qt4! :) see my sig!I dont take wise men's advice for taking K instead.when i was a n00b back in 2002,that time itself kde fanboys in my office are asking me to shift to kde hence to get mindlocked!I can not move from Gnome.

sorry aysiu (http://ubuntuforums.org/member.php?u=21941) lady ;)

This Is what you get when a person doesn't have the slightest idea of what is he talking about, and even worst, when on top of that is a troll.

[bruce89]

To clear up, any program using QT has to be GPL AFAIK, unless they want to pay for some license.

I remember Ubuntu 4.10's documentation explaining why they chose GNOME, they said that KDE wasn't free enough.

[LuisAugusto]

To clear up, any program using QT has to be GPL AFAIK, unless they want to pay for some license.

I remember Ubuntu 4.10's documentation explaining why they chose GNOME, they said that KDE wasn't free enough.

It has to be Open Source, not only GPL, there's a list of compatible licenses in their website.

KDE is as free as GNOME, unless you're going to tell me that you can take GNOME code and close it ;P

[bruce89]

It has to be Open Source, not only GPL, there's a list of compatible licenses in their website.

GPL == Open Source surely.

KDE is as free as GNOME, unless you're going to tell me that you can take GNOME code and close it ;P

Novell do their best.

[LuisAugusto]

Novell do their best.

Hahaha XD

I like Novell folks, but that was very funny XD

[lespaul_rentals]

If KDE looks like a cluttered mess, Gnome looks like a desktop enviroment for stupid users. I am not calling Gnome users stupid, just saying that's how it makes me feel. It's just too simple. The default applications feel flimsy and outdated. And that's why I use KDE.

I'm excited to see KDE 4 when it comes out, but I doubt I'll switch to it. It may be unstable.

[Prisma]

Konq tries to own the OS, it tries to do everything, like a power freak.

The most ugliest app. I have seen that is in widespread use.

I agree :-&

[mysticrider92]

The only distro on which gnome looks good is Ubuntu, on any other distro I would never use gnome just look at openSUSE. I prefer KDE though. I think it has more stable applications and is more customizable.

I like my Arch Linux Gnome, the themes can look very nice if you work at it.

I am trying to figure out how KDE can kill GNOME if both are open-source projects. Obviously, no one is making much money off of either. KDE4 might add some users, and switch some to Linux, but it will not kill GNOME.

[edit] And I agree that KDE is a bit of a mess. I love the simple look of GNOME, functionality without the extra fluff (which looks good at moderate levels, but gets unusable quickly).

[happysmileman]

Nope, it'll never kill Gnome... But I think I'd rather see KDE4 in the screenshots and videos used to promote Linux instead of Gnome. It does seem a lot better in my opinion, and most people coming from Windows want to see the prettiness before they care about how it works.

Also KDE4 will use less memory then KDE3 (I've seen figures stating 39% but with very inaccurate and probably biased measuring) and will supposedly be faster (it seemed faster for me, it was on LiveCD so not quite as fast as my Gentoo install, but much faster than Kubuntu LiveCD)

[happysmileman]

Konq tries to own the OS, it tries to do everything, like a power freak.

The most ugliest app I have seen that is in widespread use.

Yes, it was trying to be too much at once... Which is why there's now Dolphin.

By default the file manager in Konqueror will be hidden away and it will be purely a web browser, which looks a lot less bloated in my opinion.

However they are only hiding the file manager AFAIK, instead of just removing it so as to not confuse the user, like a certain other DE would do

[GeneralZod]

Also KDE4 will use less memory then KDE3 (I've seen figures stating 39% but with very inaccurate and probably biased measuring) and will supposedly be faster (it seemed faster for me, it was on LiveCD so not quite as fast as my Gentoo install, but much faster than Kubuntu LiveCD)

It's not yet definite that KDE4 will use more memory than KDE3 and, yes, the figures provided were critically flawed and mostly useless:

http://www.kdedevelopers.org/node/3138

(see Lubos and Thiago's comments; they both really know what they're talking about).

I never trust claims of speed differences without seeing benchmarks first ;) Runs fine on the EEE PC, though, which is promising considering that it was a) compiled in debug mode and b) the KDE guys have not even released 4.0 yet, let alone started the "Make it work fast" part of the development cycle:

http://www.jespersaur.com/drupal/node/36

[bruce89]

Also KDE4 will use less memory then KDE3 (I've seen figures stating 39% but with very inaccurate and probably biased measuring) and will supposedly be faster (it seemed faster for me, it was on LiveCD so not quite as fast as my Gentoo install, but much faster than Kubuntu LiveCD)

You can't test "speed" when using a LiveCD.

Forgive me for being stupid, but what visibly does KDE4 do over KDE3?

[happysmileman]

You can't test "speed" when using a LiveCD.

I just said it seemed likely to me, since I compared it to other KDE LiveCDs running 3.5 and it was faster than them all. But also the reason usually given is QT4 being faster than QT3, so I'm off to google for some comparisons of those

EDIT: Closest I could find, http://labs.trolltech.com/blogs/2005/08/24/qsa-120/]Here's the blog about it (http://labs.trolltech.com/blogs/2005/08/24/qsa-120/). But it's by trolltech and doesn't really go into much detail

Forgive me for being stupid, but what visibly does KDE4 do over KDE3?
What do you mean by that? As in how does it look different (visibly) or the backend of things?

[bruce89]

What do you mean by that? As in how does it look different (visibly) or the backend of things?

Visually.

[maniacmusician]

Visually.
This is what it currently looks like: http://www.kdedevelopers.org/node/3141

That theme (the black one) was a temporary one they came up for testing. They're experimenting with new theme ideas and haven't decided on a final default theme. For example: http://pinheiro-kde.blogspot.com/2007/12/make-every-one-happy.html

To get a comprehensive look at KDE4, you really need to run a live CD or read up on Plasma.

[tehet]

what visibly does KDE4 do over KDE3?
Compositing is one. And if I understand correctly, Plasma has/will have SuperKaramba like features. That would allow very flexible theming.

I've also understood that the framework allows for the implementation of many advanced features using only a few lines of C++. The end user probably won't notice that much, but it's great for app developers.

[happysmileman]

I've also understood that the framework allows for the implementation of many advanced features using only a few lines of C++. The end user probably won't notice that much, but it's great for app developers.

Well if a 100 line piece of code is now 80 lines of code, the developer is able to get 25% more features implemented in the same amount of time, or he/she can release it 20% earlier, either way that's a great improvement and will of course be noticed by the end user

[tehet]

True :)

[bruce89]

This is what it currently looks like: http://www.kdedevelopers.org/node/3141

That theme (the black one) was a temporary one they came up for testing. They're experimenting with new theme ideas and haven't decided on a final default theme. For example: http://pinheiro-kde.blogspot.com/2007/12/make-every-one-happy.html


Looks like a bloody mess. The worst things are the weird OS X like icons.

Well if a 100 line piece of code is now 80 lines of code, the developer is able to get 25% more features implemented in the same amount of time, or he/she can release it 20% earlier, either way that's a great improvement and will of course be noticed by the end user

Short code is bad code.

I've also understood that the framework allows for the implementation of many advanced features using only a few lines of C++. The end user probably won't notice that much, but it's great for app developers.

As far as I can tell, most of these things are abstractions of FD.o technologies. I also hope that developers like being tied to the GPL.

[p_quarles]

Short code is bad code.
Code that's too short is bad, sure, but code that closely maps to machine language can get the same things done more efficiently. It seriously depends on the application.

Anyway, your statement kinda reminded me of this old bad joke:

# -*- octave -*-
# This is just about the most hideous and complicated way of printing
# "Hello World" I can think of for the moment...
# Feel free to abuse the idea.
# By Weyfour WWWWolf (Urpo Lankinen), 2001-02-04
1;

letters = toascii("Hello world");
[p, evald] = polyfit([1:11],letters,13);

if (exist("want_plotted"))
plotx = (0:0.1:25)';
polydata = [plotx, polyval(p,plotx)];

chardata = [(1:11)',letters'];

gset grid xtics ytics;
gplot [0:13] [0:255] \
chardata with points title "desired values", \
polydata with lines title "fitted curve"
endif

disp(setstr(evald)):D

[LuisAugusto]

Looks like a bloody mess. The worst things are the weird OS X like icons.


The icons are gorgeous, it's just the color scheme in that screenshot is disgusting.

Take a look at my little blog (http://introducingkde4.blogspot.com/) for good screenshots, my color scheme comes with KDE 4, it's called Steel (in the dolphin mini article it wasn't it, it was one made by me, but they are ridicuously similar)

[undine]

Looking at the screenshots posted here on the current state of the KDE4 look, I can see that my assumption, that where was something wrong with the panel in my installation of KDE4 RC2, was incorrect. Apparently, that is how it's meant to look :confused: :lolflag:

(The purple one in RC1 looked MUCH better, although it was still too big by far)

[maniacmusician]

Looking at the screenshots posted here on the current state of the KDE4 look, I can see that my assumption, that where was something wrong with the panel in my installation of KDE4 RC2, was incorrect. Apparently, that is how it's meant to look :confused: :lolflag:

(The purple one in RC1 looked MUCH better, although it was still too big by far)
the work on the panel's look/aesthetics, and even its functionality is not complete. It's in a working state now, but there's still a lot of work that has to be done on it, as well as other parts of KDE.

[tehet]

I also hope that developers like being tied to the GPL.
I think KDE uses LGPL for their libs so devs won't be tied to GPL.

[LuisAugusto]

Looking at the screenshots posted here on the current state of the KDE4 look, I can see that my assumption, that where was something wrong with the panel in my installation of KDE4 RC2, was incorrect. Apparently, that is how it's meant to look :confused: :lolflag:

(The purple one in RC1 looked MUCH better, although it was still too big by far)

It's trivial to change the panel appearance because it's SVG themeable, the current theme is just the same one used for the others Plasmoids (applets).

http://img115.imageshack.us/img115/4084/panelthemece5.th.png (http://img115.imageshack.us/my.php?image=panelthemece5.png)

[pt123]

They need to remove that thick border it is so 1998

[LuisAugusto]

They need to remove that thick border it is so 1998

Did you read what I said? They just use the same plasma svg theme for the panel, it isn't the final design (and Aaron said it may not even be default for applets)

[bruce89]

I think KDE uses LGPL for their libs so devs won't be tied to GPL.

I thought QT forced ppeople to use the GPL, perhaps not.

[abrahamwolk]

I thought QT forced ppeople to use the GPL, perhaps not.
It is licensed under the GPL, not the LGPL, but you can also buy a non-GPL license from Trolltech. Some examples of non-free software using Qt are Skype, Opera, Google Earth and Adobe Photoshop Album. More information is available at the Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qt_%28toolkit%29.

(EDIT: clarified the post a little.)

[pt123]

Did you read what I said? They just use the same plasma svg theme for the panel, it isn't the final design (and Aaron said it may not even be default for applets)
My point is that is not of it being theme-able but it shouldn't be the default look.

One day KDE & GNOME developers will learn the importance of a top default theme from the Mac ( even Windows has caught on with Vista).

Because the default theme is always used in the reviews to showcase the OS. These reviews are crucial in attracting new users to the OS.

[LuisAugusto]

My point is that is not of it being theme-able but it shouldn't be the default look.

One day KDE & GNOME developers will learn the importance of a top default theme from the Mac ( even Windows has caught on with Vista).

Because the default theme is always used in the reviews to showcase the OS. These reviews are crucial in attracting new users to the OS.

That's what I said, it's theme-able and that one is not the final design.

[maniacmusician]

My point is that is not of it being theme-able but it shouldn't be the default look.

One day KDE & GNOME developers will learn the importance of a top default theme from the Mac ( even Windows has caught on with Vista).

Because the default theme is always used in the reviews to showcase the OS. These reviews are crucial in attracting new users to the OS.
please pay more attention; as has been said multiple times, that's not the final default look. It's just something they threw together for the panel while they were in development. They're planning on creating new themes for the final release.

[pt123]

please pay more attention; as has been said multiple times, that's not the final default look. It's just something they threw together for the panel while they were in development. They're planning on creating new themes for the final release.
This is ridiculous, they are so close to the launch date, and if they haven't released the default theme how do they expect to improve it from feedback.

Unlike some of you I think there will very few changes made to this current default theme.

[SunnyRabbiera]

well I do like the concept of the panel, its sort of a merger of the main menu and dock of OSX but I am still holding out on KDE4 until KDE 4.1 comes out...
less bugs, more hugs :p

[maniacmusician]

This is ridiculous, they are so close to the launch date, and if they haven't released the default theme how do they expect to improve it from feedback.

Unlike some of you I think there will very few changes made to this current default theme.
The panel theme is not their biggest concern for 4.0. As the developers of KDE4 have been stating ever since it was announced, 4.0 won't be some amazing, perfect release. 4.0 will the point when they finish coding important features (such as in plasma) and clean up as many bugs as they can.

After 4.0 is released, they expect to be doing a lot of bugfixing and cleaning up for 4.1. I think you might have the wrong idea about the 4.0 release; "dot" 0 releases usually signify large changes in the code, lots of feature additions and API rewrites. From there on in, they start a lot of the cleanup and prettification. I'm sure their intent is to have a new theme ready for 4.0, and to get feedback on it in between 4.0 and 4.1. Not to mention that there will be independent developers creating lots of themes in that time frame also.

[SunnyRabbiera]

thus is the greatness of open source :D

[LuisAugusto]

This is ridiculous, they are so close to the launch date, and if they haven't released the default theme how do they expect to improve it from feedback.

Unlike some of you I think there will very few changes made to this current default theme.

Yes, of course making a simple svg for the panel is impossible in more than 3 weeks...

They're going to change 1 svg image, not Oxygen...

[k99goran]

By the way... what happened to Raptor?
http://www.nuno-icons.com/images/estilo/raptor/find.png (http://pinheiro-kde.blogspot.com/2007/10/raptor-join-fun.html)

[GeneralZod]

By the way... what happened to Raptor?
http://www.nuno-icons.com/images/estilo/raptor/find.png (http://pinheiro-kde.blogspot.com/2007/10/raptor-join-fun.html)

Still in development. It definitely won't make it for 4.0. 4.1 is a possibility.

[Incense]

I was happy to see on commit-digest that the "simple menu" is a reality for KDE4. While I like kickoff, I do like the choice of having the old school KDE menu.

[maniacmusician]

I was happy to see on commit-digest that the "simple menu" is a reality for KDE4. While I like kickoff, I do like the choice of having the old school KDE menu.
Lancelot also looks really neat, although it won't really be in shape for the 4.0 release.

[maniacmusician]

Still in development. It definitely won't make it for 4.0. 4.1 is a possibility.
yup...also, the screenshot shown was just a mockup, for those who didn't know.

[phenest]

Will KDE4 kill Gnome? Simple answer: no. Because I will continue to use it even if I'm the only user. And if I become the only user, I will continue its development. Why would I do this? Choice. I have used XFCE, Gnome, and KDE. I prefer Gnome and I'm sure plenty of others do.

Even Linus Torvalds has lost sight of what Linux is when he slams Gnome and tells people to use KDE.

You should never kill off the competition. Competition is healthy.

[cookies]

I don't know about anyone here, but I LIKE large panels with big icons, makes it SO much easier to see things.

Kickoff sucks, though, it really does, so I'm glad there's the classic menu back. Raptor looks interesting.

And, all the UI bits are large in the screen shots because they capture better. They most certainly are smaller in use.

And, what's wrong with photo-realistic icons? All of those looking to Macs must realize they use photo-realistic icons as well.

No, GNOME will still be there. Even though I detest its very way of thinking, many people love it, and it will stay.

[LuisAugusto]

Even Linus Torvalds has lost sight of what Linux is when he slams Gnome and tells people to use KDE.

You should never kill off the competition. Competition is healthy.

ROFL

He just said GNOME was a pain because it didn't offer enough options, and he sent a patch, come on XD, that isn't called trolling or "lost sight", it's called useful constructive criticism.

[Incense]

One think I do have to say, is it is really nice in KDE4 to have desktop effects without having to run CF. I've been running RC2 for the past few hours, and things are really coming together well. I would even go as far as to call it stable. The desktop looks great, the effects work very nicely, and even dolphin feels pretty decent. Things will take some getting used to, but hats off to the KDE devs. They have delivered a great DE.

That being said, there is still room for gnome, there always will be. Gnome does what it does very well, and the users seem pretty happy with it. While I am not a gnome guy (at all), I do understand the appeal, and while I'm sure a lot of gnome users will give KDE4 a try, they will go back to what they know and love. It will be interesting to see if KDE4 does end up drawing more users to kubuntu when 8.10 rolls out.

[bruce89]

It is licensed under the GPL, not the LGPL, but you can also buy a non-GPL license from Trolltech. Some examples of non-free software using Qt are Skype, Opera, Google Earth and Adobe Photoshop Album. More information is available at the Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qt_%28toolkit%29.

That's my point really.

[k99goran]

yup...also, the screenshot shown was just a mockup, for those who didn't know.
But this is not a mockup, right? Wouldn't make sense to include graphical errors if it was.
http://www.jarzebski.pl/admin/store/fm_thumbs/141627b1d7b798816f4c870f804795b8.jpg
source (http://www.jarzebski.pl/read/lancelot-wraca-do-gry.so)

[cookies]

But this is not a mockup, right? Wouldn't make sense to include graphical errors if it was.

source (http://www.jarzebski.pl/read/lancelot-wraca-do-gry.so)

It's using the latest Oxygen icons, too... I really don't know though, looks interesting, though.

[GeneralZod]

But this is not a mockup, right? Wouldn't make sense to include graphical errors if it was.
http://www.jarzebski.pl/admin/store/fm_thumbs/141627b1d7b798816f4c870f804795b8.jpg
source (http://www.jarzebski.pl/read/lancelot-wraca-do-gry.so)

Just to be clear: That's Lancelot, not Raptor. And yes, the running code currently approximates what you see there, although I've never managed to get certain portions of it to work.

[deepclutch]

Will KDE4 kill Gnome? Simple answer: no. Because I will continue to use it even if I'm the only user. And if I become the only user, I will continue its development. Why would I do this? Choice. I have used XFCE, Gnome, and KDE. I prefer Gnome and I'm sure plenty of others do.

Even Linus Torvalds has lost sight of what Linux is when he slams Gnome and tells people to use KDE.

You should never kill off the competition. Competition is healthy.
Very well said friend.even i too think the same.it is,the kde and qt which is dragging linux to be windowish :x
Gnome rocks:guitar:

[maniacmusician]

Very well said friend.even i too think the same.it is,the kde and qt which is dragging linux to be windowish :x
Gnome rocks:guitar:
That's not what phenest said. While he prefers Gnome, he isn't making obnoxious, rude, and utterly false comments about KDE. phenest certainly has the right idea, that competition between the existing projects is healthy and necessary, and all of them appeal in some way to a certain audience.

Anyone who thinks that KDE4 will kill Gnome or that Gnome 2.24 will kill KDE is foolishly deluded. They're both great projects that will continue to flourish for a long time, as are XFCE, Fluxbox, openbox, etc etc.

[bruce89]

That's not what phenest said. While he prefers Gnome, he isn't making obnoxious, rude, and utterly false comments about KDE. phenest certainly has the right idea, that competition between the existing projects is healthy and necessary, and all of them appeal in some way to a certain audience.

Anyone who thinks that KDE4 will kill Gnome or that Gnome 2.24 will kill KDE is foolishly deluded. They're both great projects that will continue to flourish for a long time, as are XFCE, Fluxbox, openbox, etc etc.

Indeed, stating something and not backing it up is bad.

[molom]

I think e17 will take on the lead when it's full and stable enough. It's incredibly lightweight and incredibly full of eyecandy. There hasn't been any DE which has these features like e17. KDE has eyecandy, which is poorer than e17 and is very bloated. I think gnome will be better than KDE if KDE isn't faster than gnome later on. And many people like be don't like bloated DE's like KDE.

[deepclutch]

Kde4 will be a hype may be!http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2286/2107305542_22d75ef21a_o.png

a 3rd desktop environment will be nice.I hope e17 or xfce will take the cake in long run :p http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2355/2107305358_394278500c_o.png

I think Gnome project is fixing bugs and iron out problems as of the new releases :) I expect Gnome to release 3.0 which should facilitate more customizations via gconf.

[EtniesBMX]

Nope. Gnome diehards and zealots will continue to release Gnome, and gnome devs will eventually release another version to compete with KDE 4..wasting energy in recreating the wheel, but hey, anything to compete with KDE.

hit the nail on the head

[AndyCooll]

That's not what phenest said. While he prefers Gnome, he isn't making obnoxious, rude, and utterly false comments about KDE. phenest certainly has the right idea, that competition between the existing projects is healthy and necessary, and all of them appeal in some way to a certain audience.

Anyone who thinks that KDE4 will kill Gnome or that Gnome 2.24 will kill KDE is foolishly deluded. They're both great projects that will continue to flourish for a long time, as are XFCE, Fluxbox, openbox, etc etc.

A big +1 to this. This sums the situation up very nicely thankyou.

:cool:

[Tekno_Cowboy]

While I don't want any one DE to really take over, it would be nice if there was a common base for the major DE's. For example using QT for Gnome, KDE, and XFCE. I might be wrong, but wouldn't it be much easier to write apps if you didn't have to worry about if it should be QT, GTK, Java, etc...? Then DE developers could spend more time focusing on the environment itself.

That said, I use KDE (3.x and 4), Gnome, XFCE, JWM, Fluxbox(and a couple based on fluxbox), e17, and a couple I can't remember. I just use whatever I'm in the mood for, though I think that KDE is probably the most power-user/experienced user friendly. Many times that can end up being bloat, and other times, it can be asking for trouble(no need for granny to be messing around with system settings to check her e-mail). I support all DE's, since the more there are, the more drive there is for improvement.

[23meg]

it would be nice if there was a common base for the major DE's. For example using QT for Gnome, KDE, and XFCE. I might be wrong, but wouldn't it be much easier to write apps if you didn't have to worry about if it should be QT, GTK, Java, etc...?

http://www.wxwidgets.org/

There's much more than toolkits to worry about regarding DE neutrality though.

[zakirs]

well iam a gnome user and tried kde4 but evn though how great the kde is i cant live withouyt gtk and gnome :)

[Tekno_Cowboy]

http://www.wxwidgets.org/

There's much more than toolkits to worry about regarding DE neutrality though.

I do realise that, but I was just being general. I think there should be a main base system that most DE's build on, and that most apps are written for. That way, you could say, run a Gnome app on KDE with no noticeable difference, and no extra packages needed.

[seanc7]

I myself find KDE too Windows-like - slow and bloated. Especially compared to Gnome and Xfce.

Minimal always works for me. That's why for me Gnome or XFCE will always beat out KDE. Hands down.

Don't get me wrong, KDE is the best desktop for new Windows converts because it's more Windows-like then the others.

But for sysadmins that need a DE on a server, I think KDE would be their last choice.

[deepclutch]

^well said :)

[kamaboko]

I thought the purpose of Linux was to allow one to exercise choice. In this case, a choice between various desktop environments. It seems to me a bit ridiculous that proponents of Linux can argue for the choice that Linux provides over MS or Mac, but when it comes to Linux desktop environments to suggest that one is more valuable than another. I find this counter to the entire Linux philosophy.

[maniacmusician]

I thought the purpose of Linux was to allow one to exercise choice. In this case, a choice between various desktop environments. It seems to me a bit ridiculous that proponents of Linux can argue for the choice that Linux provides over MS or Mac, but when it comes to Linux desktop environments to suggest that one is more valuable than another. I find this counter to the entire Linux philosophy.
+1. Unfortunately, there's too many fanatics in the arena that cloud this truth. I'm really happy that there's a bunch of different DEs; if there weren't, I think the lone one would probably stagnate due to lack of competition. It's absolutely rewarding and heart warming to see all DEs grow due to competition. It makes my end-user experience that much better.

[jaytek13]

I myself find KDE too Windows-like - slow and bloated. Especially compared to Gnome and Xfce.

Minimal always works for me. That's why for me Gnome or XFCE will always beat out KDE. Hands down.

Don't get me wrong, KDE is the best desktop for new Windows converts because it's more Windows-like then the others.

But for sysadmins that need a DE on a server, I think KDE would be their last choice.

I'm not sure how much experience you have had with KDE recently, but it's performance is definitely not slow with comparison to gnome. And as far as it being like windows... how? In what ways is it like windows that gnome isn't? In fact, most people would say the default kde desktop is more akin to a mac and it is in fact gnome that is more similar to windows (at least once you get past the "omg the start buttons are in the same place" part).

In any case, the gnome team has been working very diligently to remove "choices" from the desktop, which IMO is counter intuitive to what Linux represents... choice. I can configure my KDE desktop any which way I can imagine. Gnome has decided for me that I should not be able to do that.

[qazwsx]

I think GNOME is more like Windows. For example Nautilus draws your desktop is your filemanger and CD burner just like explorer is in Windows. In KDE there are different programs for those funtions. + In gnome there is some kind of registry. In KDE you can simply edit your configuration with text editor. KDE is more functions like pure UNIX plus it has many apps with embedded konsole (I just love that).

Actually none of KDE, GNOME and XFCE are not like Windows but I think GNOME is closer than KDE or XFCE.


I like all of those three desktops. KDE is just my favourite.

[original_jamingrit]

Oh yeah? Well nothing will ever replace WindowMaker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windowmaker)! :-P

[SomeGuyDude]

For GNOME-users? No. I tried it on Suse and was severely unimpressed, and I don't mean that in a "those bugs will be worked out" kind of way. It just looked bad.

For people on the fence? Maybe. It sure will keep the KDE-fanatics.

[Dragonbite]

Minimal always works for me. That's why for me Gnome or XFCE will always beat out KDE. Hands down.

I like minimal also, which is why I've used XFCE often, but right now I'm using enjoying KDE.

It's on a laptop so the available screen is minimal so whatever I can do to take up less space is noticeable.

I have the menu bar along the top (Mac OS X style they call it) and it includes my clock, my system tray and my main menu.

When I am using KDE apps the menu bar shows up there (hey, it's there already isn't it) and makes the top portion of the application that much smaller. Wish they made it so that OpenOffice and Firefox would use it.

And no, I am not a Mac fanatic (actually I don't like the Mac) and I am not setting up the dock or whatever it is along the bottom. Right now I have a thin panel there for my taskbar and pager and that's about it.

For GNOME-users? No. I tried it on Suse and was severely unimpressed, and I don't mean that in a "those bugs will be worked out" kind of way. It just looked bad.


I like SuSE's implementation of KDE, better than the plaiin vanilla most distros use. I'm glad to see some of the parts I like about openSuse's KDE (10.2) appears to be showing up in KDE 4.

[maniacmusician]

It really is all just preference. I enjoy both Gnome and KDE, though in different settings. I prefer KDE on my desktop, where I have a lot of available space and time to configure it however I want. I use Gnome on my laptop because Ubuntu has a lot of optimizations for mobile computers that unfortunately haven't carried over to Kubuntu. I enjoy using Gnome just fine though. It works for what I need to do on my laptop.

I used to enjoy XFCE a lot as well, when I first started using Linux. I moved away from it because I found it to be very limiting as far as what it allowed me to do and how much effort it takes to get it the way I want it.

And although I wouldn't use KDE4 as my default system at the moment, I think that once it's all completed (including all basic promised frameworks, and a decent amount of bugfixing), and there's more user generated content for it (alternative menus, better configuration options than KDE3, plasmoids, etc), I think it will be a really neat system to have. Really psyched for Amarok2 and KOffice2.

[ubuntu-freak]

No.

Nathan

[og.man]

No, KDE will NOT kill Gnome, because KDE4 is slow, klunky, krap. KDE has always been like a dumb blonde; all looks, no brains.

[deepclutch]

^LOL :D seriously,I am trying kde4 these days.but I fail to be inside kde4(suse) for more than half an hour :S .
BTW,trying opensuse-11.0alpha2-kde4. ;)
The eyecandy is gr8 in kde4.but...I felt alien when I tried to configure a adsl-connection(bridge mode) in suse.may be the yast2(!@*%^) tool is annoying me....OR is it kde? :confused:
Frankly,without compiz also kde4 eat the cr@p out of my machine.everything was slow.

OR Is it a suse problem?I though kde=suse=eyecandy :confused:

well,I will try sabayon Linux in 2 days time :) let's see if kde's gonna change me from Gnome :p

pssst:I read in somewhere that qt(opia) was brought from trolltech by nokiia?true?then what about kde?kde without trolltech?

[ahaslam]

For me it's been dead for a while. My choice lays between openbox, xfce & kde. DEs like fluxbox & gnome seem to be full of compromise, neither light nor heavy, feature rich or barren. At the end of the day it's personal taste, for some it'll fit them perfectly & will never die.

[Joeb454]

I still think KDE and Gnome will just continue to coexist...just my opinion

[ubuntu-freak]

For me it's been dead for a while. My choice lays between openbox, xfce & kde. DEs like fluxbox & gnome seem to be full of compromise, neither light nor heavy, feature rich or barren. At the end of the day it's personal taste, for some it'll fit them perfectly & will never die.


I guess you could say the default GNOME setup is a compromise, but there are plenty of non-default apps to install for a more demanding user. I find it quite configurable too, it's just hidden away.

I don't agree that KDE 4 is "krap". That's like saying Ubuntu Hardy is crud just because it isn't finished yet, or any other unfinished piece of software. A lot of hard work has gone into KDE 4, seriously. It's worth reading up on it.

Nathan

[Hallvor]

No. Competition is always a good thing - and so is freedom of choice.

[samwyse]

No, and enough with the KDE bashing.

[mr.propre]

No, and enough with the KDE bashing.

Thats one of the problems the Linux community have, I remember my first steps on Linux where a question that I had was answered with: "I don't help people who use Gnome"

@ that time I didn't even know what Gnome exactly was.

People need to understand that some people love KDE and other love Gnome. That is not strange, look in the world around you, some people like rap, other like rock. Some people drive a Volkswagen others a Renault... etc Do you hate them because they are different?

[deepclutch]

Thats one of the problems the Linux community have, I remember my first steps on Linux where a question that I had was answered with: "I don't help people who use Gnome"


Hmm...this attitude is NOT among Gnome users ;)
and I remember the tux magazine which did the major damage of kde bias and Gnome bashing.
I will say 5:95 is the ratio where only 5 out of 100 gnome hardfans will bash kde,while 95 out of 100 among ....u know ;)
only few Gnome users like Me,who cares to retaliate to the "K" thing fans :D

[ubuntu-freak]

Hmm...this attitude is NOT among Gnome users ;)
and I remember the tux magazine which did the major damage of kde bias and Gnome bashing.
I will say 5:95 is the ratio where only 5 out of 100 gnome hardfans will bash kde,while 95 out of 100 among ....u know ;)
only few Gnome users like Me,who cares to retaliate to the "K" thing fans :D


I like both, but I kept tinkering too much when I used KDE. Must be my obsessive side.

*snip*

Nathan

[Trap_]

I prefer KDE over Gnome.

[Dragonbite]

The only thing I don't like about KDE is the application naming convenation:
"K"... this and "k" ... that!

[himagain]

Anyone here remember vinyl records?
Beta and whatsisname video tape formats?
Will KDE4 kill Gnome?

In the Bad World, it is simply marketing clout that determines the success or failure of products, with the rare and odd exceptions that somehow sneak thru like Pet Rocks, Hula Hoops and Harry Potter for which there are no logical answers........

Here is my definitive answer as a would-be lux user for years and years:
NO.
Right now Gnome does have the numbers, but as squillions of people abandon THAT other thing .... it finally went too far, there is no doubt that KDE4 will be friendlier/familiar, but most Lux users do seem to use Gnome and critically, if you want support like I do, ya gotta be using gnome, I find!

At the crux of it all, it is only the install problems of most Luxes that have stopped the world converting and finally with Ubuntu I found one that works out of the box.

Gnome is great. KDE4 is great. Between them and Ubuntu may they fix the world.

Cheers!

[deepclutch]

^do u think so? :p but linuxquestions.org poll showed kde is 50% popularity and Gnome at 35% approx ;) (I know that poll may be....???? )
heres the link:
http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/2007-linuxquestions.org-members-choice-awards-79/desktop-environment-of-the-year-610190/

[dizee]

I don't think either of them will kill the other - on the contrary the competition will push each of them to improve. KDE & Gnome go up and down in popularity constantly anyway - before Ubuntu it was pretty much all about KDE, and if the next big thing™ in Linux is KDE-based it could switch again.

Besides we all know that Xfce is best anyway ;)

[PiggiePaul]

I gotta as some dumb questions here (at the end of this long thread)

What's the difference (can anyone sum it up) between KDE3 and KDE4 ?

Apart from a few default menus and some different styling, what's the difference between Gnome and KDE in the 1st place?

One you have Compiz running, your icons on screen with your wallpaper, and perhaps the desklet/screenlets you like, what's actually the difference?

Sorry for the dumb questions, but is it just the "Look" of the interface and some menu's etc a bit different, or are there more fundamental differences between Gnome and KDE (or KDE4)

[LuisAugusto]

I gotta as some dumb questions here (at the end of this long thread)

What's the difference (can anyone sum it up) between KDE3 and KDE4 ?

Apart from a few default menus and some different styling, what's the difference between Gnome and KDE in the 1st place?

One you have Compiz running, your icons on screen with your wallpaper, and perhaps the desklet/screenlets you like, what's actually the difference?

Sorry for the dumb questions, but is it just the "Look" of the interface and some menu's etc a bit different, or are there more fundamental differences between Gnome and KDE (or KDE4)

They´re made using different toolkits.

GNOME is made using Gtk 2
KDE 3.5.x is made using Qt 3.x
KDE 4.0 was made using Qt 4.3, and KDE 4.1 is made using Qt 4.4

From my humble point of view Qt 4.4 is the best of all those.

Plus, KDE 4 pillars are reallly going to mark a difference, Solid, Phonon, Nepomuk and Plasma are all amazing.

KDE 4.x application are more advanced than their KDE 3 counterparts (and mostly their GNOME counterparts), but they´re still buggy, and some of them aren´t even in a useful state, like KDE-PIM and KNetworkmanager.

KDE 4.0.1 and KDE 4.0.2 are usable, however, I don´t think KDE 4 will be ready for most people until 4.1 (July 29) or in the worst case in 4.2 (there isn´t a date yet).

[dizee]

I gotta as some dumb questions here (at the end of this long thread)

What's the difference (can anyone sum it up) between KDE3 and KDE4 ?
It might not yet look that different to the end user, but KDE4 has been written from scratch so underneath it's a lot different to KDE3. It is supposed to be much easier to develop for it. One of the main new concepts is the end of the "desktop as a folder" idea - the desktop is now designed so that all of it is widget-based.
Apart from a few default menus and some different styling, what's the difference between Gnome and KDE in the 1st place?
Gnome and KDE are built with different toolkits. Toolkits control the way the software works and the way it appears (e.g. the "plastic/glossy" KDE vs more utilitarian Gnome/Xfce). Gnome uses GTK (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GTK) while KDE uses Qt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qt_(toolkit)). These use different programming languages so software is written differently for each of them.

Not only do the toolkits differ but the design philosophies of the developers differ with different standards being set down. KDE strives to be as configurable as possible while Gnome, while configurable, likes to keep things simple (sometimes even to the point of refusing changes which provide more functionality).

One you have Compiz running, your icons on screen with your wallpaper, and perhaps the desklet/screenlets you like, what's actually the difference?
Not much really. Depending on the apps you use, KDE apps load much quicker in KDE for example and vice versa. A good desktop environment is one that gets out of your way and lets you be productive anyway.

Sorry for the dumb questions, but is it just the "Look" of the interface and some menu's etc a bit different, or are there more fundamental differences between Gnome and KDE (or KDE4)
There's no such thing as a dumb question, what's dumb is not asking questions ;)

There are fundamental differences as listed above: different toolkits and different design standards and philosophies.

The original (now irrelevant) reason for Gnome being developed, interestingly enough, was that KDE was not considered open-source enough. This is no longer a concern however, since Qt was eventually open-sourced.

[PiggiePaul]

Thanks Dizee for the excellent reply :)

I guess for the end user (still admittedly Linux noobe) the only real things I see are what's on the screen in front of me (graphically) how menu's etc are laid out, loading/shutdown times and what "Effects" I see on screen.

I will still be running the same apps.

What's in the background powering all this, what it was written with etc etc, is all invisible.

To be honest, I'm more that happy with Gnome

The only I guess complaint I could have, and this also applies to the latest screen shots I've seen of KDE4 is that, for some reason, they seem to look like Windows/Mac's did years ago when it comes to the default icon/window panes design.

Functional, but not very smooth and "Professional graphic artist" designed.

Which is odd when you see all the fancy 3D effect that go along with them

[Erunno]

Gnome and KDE are built with different toolkits. Toolkits control the way the software works and the way it appears (e.g. the "plastic/glossy" KDE vs more utilitarian Gnome/Xfce). Gnome uses GTK (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GTK) while KDE uses Qt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qt_(toolkit)). These use different programming languages so software is written differently for each of them.

GTK+ and Qt are *not* different programming languages. They are toolkits using different languages (C and C++ respectively). Both toolkits have a multitude of bindings which allow to write applications with languages other than the toolkit's native language. They also don't define how an application will behave (that's the developer's task) but can enforce certain programming paradigms (e.g. the SIGNAL/SLOT mechanism in Qt).

Plus, "glossy" or "non-glossy" look has little to do with the toolkit in questions as both can be themed to a certain extent (e.g. Vista-like GNOME).

Not only do the toolkits differ but the design philosophies of the developers differ with different standards being set down. KDE strives to be as configurable as possible while Gnome, while configurable, likes to keep things simple (sometimes even to the point of refusing changes which provide more functionality).

That's not completely true anymore. If you follow the KDE mailing lists you'll notice that there are configuration requests that are simply rejected as they are deemed to obscure to be shown in an user interface. The difference to GNOME is that the KDE team is concerned with discoverability of features, i.e. not hiding them in some obscure GConf but letting the user find them in the GUI on their own. This makes the organization of the GUI a bigger challenge than simply removing it though.[/QUOTE]

[PiggiePaul]

Is there anything I can't do in Gnome that I can do in KDE (3.5 or 4) or visa versa?

There were a few things I wanted to be able to do in Gnome ubuntu, but after some kind people on the forums told me, I was able to download little mods or alterations to give me what I wanted.

There's not really anything I feel like I'm missing?

I guess it would be nice to have some standard to the desklet screenlet side of things to make a standard.

I think for me (and I'm sure all newbies) that's the problem with Linux at the moment.

There are so many people doing so many things and you don't know which way to turn or what to do with.

which is great as you "generally" seem to be able to get most things running in most different versions.

But on the other hand it does make you feel like you've been plonked into a giant wine isle in a mammoth supermarket, when all you want is a drink and you have no idea which of the 1000 bottles on offer you should be looking at.

Which I suppose is the beauty (if you want to call it that) of Windows or OSX in that you kinda know where you are.

Perhaps it does not give you so much flexibility, but as a beginner at least you feel you have a stable starting point to work from.

With Linux, (I don't feel so bad now) It's like which way do I turn, I've no idea.

[awakatanka]

There are so many people doing so many things and you don't know which way to turn or what to do with.

which is great as you "generally" seem to be able to get most things running in most different versions.

But on the other hand it does make you feel like you've been plonked into a giant wine isle in a mammoth supermarket, when all you want is a drink and you have no idea which of the 1000 bottles on offer you should be looking at.

Which I suppose is the beauty (if you want to call it that) of Windows or OSX in that you kinda know where you are.

Perhaps it does not give you so much flexibility, but as a beginner at least you feel you have a stable starting point to work from.

With Linux, (I don't feel so bad now) It's like which way do I turn, I've no idea.
Funny thing is that i felt exactly like that when i first used windows 3.0 and later windows 95 and also in xp, and now in vista i'm relearn things because they are changed. You need to start using something to learn something. Use gnome for a period of time and use KDE for a period of time and base your choose on what worked best for you.

I'm more a fan of KDE then Gnome not because some say it looks like windows ( i find gnome more like windows then KDE.) but i can do lots of things with gui configurations and i feel I'm in power of my system and not someone else.

[PiggiePaul]

Funny thing is that i felt exactly like that when i first used windows 3.0 and later windows 95 and also in xp, and now in vista i'm relearn things because they are changed. You need to start using something to learn something. Use gnome for a period of time and use KDE for a period of time and base your choose on what worked best for you.

I'm more a fan of KDE then Gnome not because some say it looks like windows ( i find gnome more like windows then KDE.) but i can do lots of things with gui configurations and i feel I'm in power of my system and not someone else.

Strangely I've never felt lost in windows.

No, I tel a lie, I've often felt lost in XP and to a massive degree Vista trying to find some dam setting that I was adjusting yesterday and have no idea where it is today!

I do find Compiz a bit like that, and need to start writing down some key combinations. Just because there are so many aspect to it.

I've not tried KDE yet, so can't comment, but may well try in the future.

I'm just not struck on the bar at the bottom to be honest.

[deepclutch]

I'm more a fan of KDE then Gnome not because some say it looks like windows ( i find gnome more like windows then KDE.) but i can do lots of things with gui configurations and i feel I'm in power of my system and not someone else.

I cant understand kde people saying that Gnome is similar to windows :confused: infact we all know that kde in more than one ways similar to windows!
starting from window$ like kicker taskbar with systray like functionality.even super key will work in launching "start menu" err "K" menu to be launched!
now comes konqueror ,the browser and file manager!u can see the similarity with windows explorer!Infact very similar!

I think kde users cannot perceive the reality that kde rips much more ideas from OS X and Windows !

while Gnome is accused of OS X like by some kde boys!reality is how many are familiar with OS X eh?
It doesnt matter for a new user to be already familiar with OS X is a rare chance unlike window$ users who are the majority users shifting to Linux!

whatever-I have tried my cousin to differentiate between Kde and Gnome and asked whether any similarity is found.he easily knows that kde is almost like windows!while Gnome,which he prefers is new to him!
and He doesnt remember anything similar to windows!

Kde users-ask someone from windows world to differentiate between Gnome and Kde.u'll get the answer.

[Omnios]

A lot of Gnome users are hard core Gnome users and no matter what KDE comes out with they will still use Gnome.

[p_quarles]

Is this thread still here?

Why are these arguments interesting to anyone? Neither Gnome nor KDE are going away any time soon. As for what is "more like Windows," this too seems silly for a number of reasons. I say they all look too much like the Xerox Star interface. :D

I see no compelling reason for this thread to continue to remain open, as the comments are getting extremely repetitive. If you think I'm wrong, please send me a PM explaining why. If you'd rather get a second opinion, PM another staff member.