The "Bye, Ubuntu" thread

[paulmac]

I have played with Mac, Xp, and Linux for awhile now. Take note, I said played. Each operating system has it's advantages and it's disadvantages. My Mac G4 is a sweetheart machine, for being 7 years old, it is fault free for the most part. My three Xp machines one of which serves as a HTPC are fine but you can't get over the big brother syndrome. My Linux box has been more fun than anything since the DOS days. I have watched it grow from my first trial with Suse to my present adventure with Ubuntu 7.4. Ubuntu is clearly the best flavor or Linux I have tried. I hated the concept of fighting to get a program installed. I still do but you can feel it with Ubuntu, they know how we typical desk top users are - point and click. That's how Microsoft took the lead. Remember the DOS days when you had to put the commands in one line at a time? Redmond figured it out. Most of are not that patient so along came Windows. Over the years I've had many late nights trying to get around some Windows issue. There are also issues with Linux. Somehow, the Mac has never presented an issue. So strange.

Anyway, Linux is growing into a mature operating system. Linux 7.4 is one sweet OS. Granted, it is not Windows and it is not Mac but neither of those boxes were free. I would love to see Ubuntu loaded up with all of the vendor support that Xp has. I would also be willing to pay for that. If that day ever comes, where Ubuntu is fully supported as Xp is today and Mac to some extent, then the average home user will have three options for an OS.

As we know, Mac now runs Xp. Don't get me wrong, Xp is not that great it is just better supported because of the numbers of users.

You folks at Ubuntu are doing a incredible job. Your OS is becoming more and more polished with each new release. I am watching, and using your OS. Keep up the great work.

There is no reason for any person to give up on a first try, or second, or third, etc. I have numerous holes in my walls where beige boxes went through them. But I always picked up the pieces and tried again. Linux Ubuntu 64 bit works just fine when you get it installed.

Maco

[mivo]

Remember the DOS days when you had to put the commands in one line at a time? Redmond figured it out. Most of are not that patient so along came Windows

Actually, there were GUI-based systems years before the first Windows came out. MacOS had been around before, Atari ST computers used GEM already in 1984/5 (I ran one of those -- the switch from GEM to Windows was painful), the Amiga also predates Windows and had a graphical, mouse-driven user interface. MS just picked up the trend, and then became the market force they are now with OEM, bundling contracts, and so on. OS/2 was an arguably better operating system, but the marketing was the pits ... it was also too advanced/hardware demanding for its time.

I thought XP was a pretty good end-user OS, though. Like all Windows versions it eventually suffocates itself, but when I used it, it gave me few problems. I solely use Linux now, and I'm happy as a kitten with the amount of choice, the freedom, control over the system, the snappiness and the community. It offers just about everything I want from an OS, and Ubuntu is a particularly friendly distro.

[SuperDuck]

A lot of people in this thread need to get over themselves.

[NoSmokingBandit]

The OP was right, the linux fanboys are going to have a fit over this...

[Therion]

I'm popping in to say that I'm brand new to Unbuntu (you could measure my total use/exposure in hours) and I'm loving it. My plan to escape out from under WinXP is almost complete...

Too make things a little easier on the first-time Ubuntu-user/Windows-drone transition-er, though, I'd like to offer some simple suggestions that would really help me, and many, many just like me I'm sure, get through this often rocky transitional period. I feel confident none of these suggestions represent anything the Ubuntu Community couldn't implement quickly and easily in an effort to make soon-to-be ex-Windows users more comfortable! To wit:

1. First and foremost, Ubunutu boots up/restarts WAAAY too fast. Can't you guyz do something so it boots up... nice... and... slow? You know, more like Windows? Maybe, so that over a period of time, as I have time to adjust to Ubuntu, the boot times would decrease. But please, imperceptible increments!

2. Could you please integrate some a feature where the n00b Ubuntu user receives an "Abort, Cancel, Retry" dialog box that freezes the entire system until responded to? Any response would carry a random chance of causing a spontaneous restart, of course. These too would help me feel more comfortable as I transition over from Windows. Like #1, these should be more frequent at the start but, over days and weeks, slowly taper off as I adjust to the stability of Ubuntu.

3. Forum posters here and on other Ubuntu-support sites need to stop giving simple, direct answers when I do run into a problem. Posting the command line I need, linking me directly to Envy to install my nVidia driver... This has to stop. Seriously. You're freaking me out, mmmmmkay?? You all really need to get crackin' and learn to say things like...

"Try this... It might help."
"Reboot your system."
"Sounds like a virus, but it could a conflict in the Device Manager or an IRQ conflict. Check those."
"Reboot your system."
"I knew a guy who had this same problem and he had to R&R (Reformat and Reinstall)..."
"Reboot your system."
"Have you tried updating your antivirus, anti-spyware, firewall, and spam blocker applications and run full scans?"
"Reboot your system."
"When did you last reboot your system?"


As you can see, none of these ideas are complicated and if implemented ASAP, I think, would really help people get through the difficult transitional period from Windows to Linux.

Feel free to take any (or all!) of these suggestions, and run with them!!


Deepest regards,
~ Therion

[sidamo]

I'm popping in to say that I'm brand new to Unbuntu (you could measure my total use/exposure in hours) and I'm loving it. My plan to escape out from under WinXP is almost complete...

Too make things a little easier on the first-time Ubuntu-user/Windows-drone transition-er, though, I'd like to offer some simple suggestions that would really help me, and many, many just like me I'm sure, get through this often rocky transitional period. I feel confident none of these suggestions represent anything the Ubuntu Community couldn't implement quickly and easily in an effort to make soon-to-be ex-Windows users more comfortable! To wit:

1. First and foremost, Ubunutu boots up/restarts WAAAY too fast. Can't you guyz do something so it boots up... nice... and... slow? You know, more like Windows? Maybe, so that over a period of time, as I have time to adjust to Ubuntu, the boot times would decrease. But please, imperceptible increments!

2. Could you please integrate some a feature where the n00b Ubuntu user receives an "Abort, Cancel, Retry" dialog box that freezes the entire system until responded to? Any response would carry a random chance of causing a spontaneous restart, of course. These too would help me feel more comfortable as I transition over from Windows. Like #1, these should be more frequent at the start but, over days and weeks, slowly taper off as I adjust to the stability of Ubuntu.

3. Forum posters here and on other Ubuntu-support sites need to stop giving simple, direct answers when I do run into a problem. Posting the command line I need, linking me directly to Envy to install my nVidia driver... This has to stop. Seriously. You're freaking me out, mmmmmkay?? You all really need to get crackin' and learn to say things like...

"Try this... It might help."
"Reboot your system."
"Sounds like a virus, but it could a conflict in the Device Manager or an IRQ conflict. Check those."
"Reboot your system."
"I knew a guy who had this same problem and he had to R&R (Reformat and Reinstall)..."
"Reboot your system."
"Have you tried updating your antivirus, anti-spyware, firewall, and spam blocker applications and run full scans?"
"Reboot your system."
"When did you last reboot your system?"


As you can see, none of these ideas are complicated and if implemented ASAP, I think, would really help people get through the difficult transitional period from Windows to Linux.

Feel free to take any (or all!) of these suggestions, and run with them!!


Deepest regards,
~ Therion

Congratulations, you're well on your way to becoming one of the many Windows bashers on this forum.

[Therion]

Congratulations, you're well on your way to becoming one of the many Windows bashers on this forum.
Dude, it's called a Sense of Humor.

Look into getting one, maybe?

[jbaerbock]

No see if you laugh at Windows it is apparently called bashing. And you must be careful because there are windows lovers in the woodwork around here lol :P.

[julian67]

Congratulations, you're well on your way to becoming one of the many Windows bashers on this forum.

I thought that was a compliment :-o

[Therion]

No see if you laugh at Windows it is apparently called bashing. And you must be careful because there are windows lovers in the woodwork around here lol :P.

Thank you for the clarification! :KS

Just so there are no hard feelings, let me state for the record: I don't hate Windows. Really.

That being said, Sid'; are you saying Windows boots as fast, or faster, than Ubuntu, even assuming clean, fresh installs for each? Have you NEVER had an "Abort, Cancel, Retry" dialog box? And find me a Windows user who hasn't gotten an answer similar to the one's I listed, and I'll point out a brand new Windows user to you. Not too mention that I myself still AM a Windows user. See, that's where the whole "humor" thing comes in to play... Clever, huh?

No harm intended and I certainly thought the general tone of my post was indicative of it's "tongue-in-cheek" nature. No problem though, I'll 'check' my sense o' humor at the login screen.

[aysiu]

Yes, on my computers, Windows does boot faster than Ubuntu. I realize this isn't the case for everyone, but I think people's experiences vary, and you can't say Windows always boots faster or Ubuntu always boots faster.

I have had the Abort, Cancel, Retry dialogue box, but that was years ago.

And I haven't met many brand new Windows users. Almost all the Windows users I know have been using Windows for at least five to fifteen years.

[Therion]

aysiu: Message received and understood.

I'll cease and desist with the humor from now on... Promise.

Nothing but simple, dry, communication from this point forward.

[julian67]

aysiu: Message received and understood.

I'll cease and desist with the humor from now on... Promise.

Nothing but simple, dry, communication from this point forward.

It's important to remember that humour is not universal, national and cultural differences are very marked. Then there is the barrier that many people here are communicating in their second language and will not immediately recognise wordplay, idiom, cultural references, assumptions held etc. And then even if you say something universally funny that survives translation it might be read by someone who has no sense of humour.

[Ripfox]

It's important to remember that humour is not universal, national and cultural differences are very marked. Then there is the barrier that many people here are communicating in their second language and will not immediately recognise wordplay, idiom, cultural references, assumptions held etc. And then even if you say something universally funny that survives translation it might be read by someone who has no sense of humour.

I think it is vitally important to learn the way of bashing windows...keep focusing on the VOID.

Oh wait not everyone will think that was funny so I guess I should have never said it. Better to keep quiet and safe than to offend someone. :rolleyes:

[julian67]

I think it is vitally important to learn the way of bashing windows...keep focusing on the VOID.

Oh wait not everyone will think that was funny so I guess I should have never said it. Better to keep quiet and safe than to offend someone. :rolleyes:

case proven.

[cablejimmy]

Sorry but why do people feel the need to announce this?
It's kinda like a suicide; a cry for help.

[Ripfox]

case proven.

What point, that it actually IS funy to bash Windows sometimes? :lolflag:

[Ripfox]

I thought that was a compliment :-o

You seem to back it up here. Oh wait was that supposed to be funny? :lolflag:

[OzzyFrank]

I was going to add my bit, but you guys are all scaring me, boo hoo hoo! I don't want anyone pronouncing Jihad upon me for saying something funny that translates to "Your Mother throws rocks in Hell!" in some obscure dialect of Swahili... or have a Fatwa placed on me by some Windows FundaMENTAList. And I certainly won't say that some people post negative things, or even angry comebacks against humour, because in their real lives, they are weak little bitches with no sense of personal "power" or self-worth, and quite possibly sexless (or just really bad at it).

So i certainly won't say that I found that post re making Ubuntu more like Windows very funny, as that would make me a Windows-basher (and then I would have to exert a few brain calories to decide whether that's a bad thing!).

And damned if I will admit that my Ubuntu load time is much faster than Windows, as someone will just reply angrily that it can't be the case.... as on all 357 computers they own, Windows loads in 7.5 seconds or less, while Ubuntu takes at least a couple of minutes.

So, now that I haven't said anything that could possibly offend anyone... adieu!

Frank

[sidamo]

Dude, it's called a Sense of Humor.

Look into getting one, maybe?

So you can be funny but I can't?

[julian67]

........I don't want anyone pronouncing Jihad upon me for saying something funny that translates to "Your Mother throws rocks in Hell!"

Actually she does and she's rather annoyed with you. Get yourself a rock proof hat.

[Ripfox]

lmao...don't forget about getting the Dragons Fang scrawled above your door.

[Therion]

So you can be funny but I can't?

You can be funny, just not funnier than me*.








*Post not intended to be construed, taken, perceived as, accepted, assumed, interpreted orrrrrrrrr understood, in any way, shape or form to be "funny".

[sidamo]

You can be funny, just not funnier than me*.

You've got yourself a deal Therion

[julian67]

You can be funny, just not funnier than me*.

less funny would also be difficult.

[standingfire]

Hmmm,
Thats curious, I've passed through 4 upgrades of Ubuntu, used RedHat and a couple of others, never had a problem with any. Never had to use an ndiswrapper. Which wireless card are you using, could it be that your card is faulty?

[Drevix]

Installing:

Downloading, burning cd, and installing was pretty easy. Installed to empty primary slave drive with Windows XP on primary master. Failed to recognize Windows XP on the master drive and did not add required entries in the menu.lst file in order for Windows XP to appear as a choice on boot-up. Had to manually edit the menu.lst file and add the proper entry myself. Not a fun thing to have to learn how to do your very first time out with Linux and you have no idea what's going on or why.

Graphics Drivers:

Default drivers installed from the Live CD were terrible. Stuck at a lower than usual resolution at 60Hz. Actually had to drop it down to 50Hz to get rid of the nauseating screen flicker, and no control settings to speak of. Installed Nvidia drivers found in the add/remove. No change in resolution clarity, refresh rate, or control settings. Ran Envy Script, with some minor difficulties. Was finally able to get better resolution and increase refresh rate to 85Hz, some control settings available. Desktop displays, images, and graphics were still below acceptable quality levels. Ran Modeline Calculator, was finally able to increase refresh rate to 100Hz. No significant change. Digital camera images looked as if they were taken with a 2MP camera. Fonts look like crap, nothing has a nice sharp, clear look to it, despite tweaking and twiddling with every possible display setting available. Tried whatever image/graphics editing software I could find. I’m suppose to edit or create images, (often with painstaking precision and detail with a multitude of effects and filters at my disposal), with THIS stuff and lousy graphics drivers???? Just completely forget about CAD and vector graphics altogether. As for video, forget it, utterly useless. I stopped using MS Paint and low-end GIF/BMP formats many years ago. That’s what it felt like, like I was using kiddy stuff.

Sound Drivers:

Default drivers installed from the Live CD were just enough to get sound working. No other drivers to be found. Tweaked and twiddled what little there was in the way of options and settings and managed to get some quality. Searched for and downloaded audio programs/codecs, Amarok, Alsa, etc., tried a couple wave editors. Great if all I want to do is simple basic wave editing and diddle with MP3 files in a very clumsy amateur way. Sorry, but when I come home from the studio with a couple cd's full of large, max quality, wave files, I need to be able to open and play up to as many as 6 or 7 wave files at the same time and be able to edit and mix them on the fly in realtime. I need a multitude of various functions and controls that I can precisely control for this. Also, it’s not uncommon to use raw MIDI tracks in the mix, which requires a MIDI program running at the same time linked & sync’ed to my wave editor. Yeah, right. The Hindenburg crashed and burned only once. I don’t need my computer to be doing that all the time.


Mouse Drivers:

I have a rather simple Logitech mouse. It’s just an older 3-button PS/2 mouse. I like having my middle button as a double click. Refuses to identify my mouse as anything other than a generic two-button mouse. Despite trying a number of things, no middle button function. Even my simple mouse is reduced in capability and function.

I read a lot of information concerning the xorg.conf file and how it’s suppose to work. Considered it a rather lame way to control hardware device settings, especially when whatever is used to identify the hardware devices and their properties doesn’t do a very good job of it. I should not have to manually edit a file of this type right from the start to correct errors in the device property entries nor to add entries that should have been put there in the first place.


DSL Modem:

DSL modem with both USB and RJ-45 connectors. Modem is correctly identified and shows on the device manager list under the USB port headings, as well as my USB ports and controllers. No interface between them to allow for internet connection and no way of having one without some god-awful procedure that may or may not work, and if by some miracle it does it’ll be crap. Ridiculous! An internet connection using a DSL modem on a USB port should be part of the OS itself. Stuck using a network card that isn’t needed and just uses up resources.

Clarification:
Connection type: DSL 128K
Distance from Hub building: 500-800 feet.

Windows XP using network card – connection at 10Mbps
Windows XP using USB port – connection at 12Mbps
Typical download transfer rate – 75 to 95 kbps on a good day.
Both connection types run at the same transfer speeds. Network card tends to be slower in that it does a lot of stop/start. USB port connection is much smoother and faster since it rarely does the stop/start.
Note: No additional software or drivers were installed or needed for using the DSL modem – on either port connection.

Ubuntu 7.04 using network card – Unknown Mbps since I can’t find anything that says anything about my connection speed. Though download transfer rates run anywhere from 85kbps to 110kbps on a good day. Still get the stop/start but not as frequently as in Windows.
Ubuntu 7.04 using USB port – Unavailable.

These are just the main issues. There are a number of smaller minor issues too. Windows has it’s faults and problems, and can be damn annoying when something does go wrong. Honestly though, I haven’t seen a BSOD on my system since the earliest Win98FE. XP for the most part has been stable and reliable on my system. What’s annoying about it is that it’s a resource hog, the need for constant updates, and constant maintenance to keep it happy, and god help you if you have to do a repair install and have to download and install all the security updates over again. As for Vista, after all the horror stories I’ve heard and seen with that, I will not be upgrading to that nightmare anytime soon. All Linux has done is shown me how much easier and better I can do the things I use my computer for with Windows, despite any of the problems, annoyances, or any of the ridiculous politics behind it.

So you see, people can say Linux is better than Windows all they want, but it doesn’t make it true in all cases. When I can do all that I can do in Windows with equivalent kinds of programs I use there and my hardware is being used to its fullest capabilities with Linux, then I’ll make Linux my primary OS. Until then, from my point of view, it’s just kiddy stuff to play with when the mood strikes.

[SuperDuck]

That's quite a detailed response, Drevix. I'm sorry to hear about all your troubles. I'm also sorry that some have "stopped caring" (oh my please no), and that you didn't quite get the response you were perhaps expecting.

I too have been unable to have my audio needs in any distribution. I need to be able to high-quality editing and manipulation of audio files. I have not found any program to do what I need them to do. Ardor, Audacity; none of them fulfill the needs I have for the business I run. None of my hardware is supported, so there's not really any chance of me going "full Linux" at the point. I don't feel any strong ideological calling to, either. There are a lot of Linux users who are up on a high horse of righteousness that act like many of the posters in this thread. If someone doesn't like Linux it's surely not because the various distributions haven't advanced enough, but that the users have done something wrong. ;)

[ticopelp]

I thought you were leaving and wouldn't be back to read any of the responses. So you admit you were lying?

[FranMichaels]

Try Ubuntu 7.10 instead. It will be out in a little over a week. I don't guarantee it will solve all your issues, but I will say that 7.04 seems crappy compared to all the improvements (and updates to software like the GIMP) in 7.10.

As for the modem business, It is preferable to use the ethernet. It uses less resources than USB, and you should not notice a speed difference between it. Anyway, from the speed you indicated
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usb#USB_signaling
12mbs is only Full Speed.

Now if you are wondering on Windows XP why the ethernet isn't as efficient, it's due to overhead. I googled and found this. Hopefully this tweak would improve speed for you under XP.

http://www.petri.co.il/increase_internet_connection_speed_in_windows_xp.h tm

Up to you of course, but since your download speed is a fraction of 10mbps or 12mbps, I assure you ethernet is the overall best choice. You saw how nicely it did in Ubuntu.

Lastly, good on you for trying. Hopefully you will be presently surprised with Ubuntu 7.10, or perhaps a future release. If you decide to give it a go, make sure to voice any issues and file a bug report if something doesn't work. It's the only way to get things fixed, especially if you are using older or obscure hardware.

Take care. :)

[vipwoody]

Now, almost after 1.75 years after the first post, I would like to say that Ubuntu is so easy to install and wireless networking is so much easier than Windows :P

Please people, as a former Windows user, I can honestly ask you to try it and you will never regret it.

[skipb]

Now, almost after 1.75 years after the first post, I would like to say that Ubuntu is so easy to install and wireless networking is so much easier than Windows :P

Please people, as a former Windows user, I can honestly ask you to try it and you will never regret it.

I agree Linux has came a looooong way since this thread was started.

[julian67]

I agree Linux has came a looooong way since this thread was started.

whereas Windows actually got worse :lolflag:

[xpod]

1.65-ish years later.......
After 4 months using Windows & 15 now using Linux i find it`s going into Windows thats so complicated & difficult at times...

Of course though....Windows is not really difficult,Windows is just different:popcorn:

Just my dodgy humour folks...for any it may be lost on.:rolleyes:
I actually know my way round Windows better than i mabey should:???:

[SuperDuck]

I thought you were leaving and wouldn't be back to read any of the responses. So you admit you were lying?

Wow. That was completely unnecessary. You are part of the problem.

[lledurt]

I am assuming that everyone is doing this, but I have "mentored" several friends and helped them get their computers set up. This includes wireless even though I don't personally use wireless. Once their machine is setup they never go back. I have had these people learn from this and have had them help me when they discovered things that I didn't know. I am new to Ubuntu (less than a year) but love it.

Ubuntu...Pass it on.

[multifaceted]

Funny how new users try and fail at Linux and then... continue to post threads in a Linux forum about how bad or difficult it was.

[ticopelp]

Wow. That was completely unnecessary. You are part of the problem.

Oh, please. If making an offhand wry remark once in a while makes me "part of the problem," then I'm in good company with about 80% of the people in this forum, not to mention this thread.

I think people should use the computing tool that suits them best, so I have nothing against the OP's choice to return to Windows. But I'm not impressed by haughty declarations of "I won't be reading responses to my criticisms" followed by returning to deliver more bad-mouthing.

[ddrichardson]

Failed to recognize Windows XP on the master drive and did not add required entries in the menu.lst file in order for Windows XP to appear as a choice on boot-up. Had to manually edit the menu.lst file and add the proper entry myself. Not a fun thing to have to learn how to do your very first time out with Linux and you have no idea what's going on or why.
Granted this is a failing of the installer and needs to be changed - it has been brought up before that the configuration options for grub are more limited on Ubuntu's installer than on say Anaconda for Fedora Core. Sadly it hasn't been changed in 7.10 (at least not in Beta).

Graphics Drivers:

Default drivers installed from the Live CD were terrible. Stuck at a lower than usual resolution at 60Hz. Actually had to drop it down to 50Hz to get rid of the nauseating screen flicker, and no control settings to speak of. Installed Nvidia drivers found in the add/remove. No change in resolution clarity, refresh rate, or control settings. Ran Envy Script, with some minor difficulties. Was finally able to get better resolution and increase refresh rate to 85Hz, some control settings available. Desktop displays, images, and graphics were still below acceptable quality levels.The Live CD needs to be fairly flexible so doesn't optimize display hardware. 7.10 has added display-config-gtk which is much more similar to Display Properties in Windows XP and solves a lot of these problems.

Ran Modeline Calculator, was finally able to increase refresh rate to 100Hz.I know, I pointed you to it in this (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=542045) thread! The problem here was related to the card misidentifying itself and is a known issue with these cards. Granted not much movement has come of it, but nVidia are not likely to be to concerned producing Linux drivers for a five year old card.

I’m suppose to edit or create images, (often with painstaking precision and detail with a multitude of effects and filters at my disposal), with THIS stuff and lousy graphics drivers???? Just completely forget about CAD and vector graphics altogether. As for video, forget it, utterly useless. I stopped using MS Paint and low-end GIF/BMP formats many years ago. That’s what it felt like, like I was using kiddy stuff.If there are programs that you need to run on Windows then why not run them on Windows? I do. Some math programs are better on Windows which is why I keep a Windows box, the same goes for your comments on Linux sound editing software.

OSS software tends to be written to fulfill a need, rather than being developeed for other people's needs in the way proprietry software is (i.e. to be sold to them). Again if Windows does this best and I needed the ability for work I suspect you're right and need to stay with Windows. That's a genuine testemonial issue - suggesting that anyone looking for that functionality looks elsewhere, yet you don't mention it in your OP.

Mouse Drivers:

I have a rather simple Logitech mouse. It’s just an older 3-button PS/2 mouse. I like having my middle button as a double click. Refuses to identify my mouse as anything other than a generic two-button mouse. Despite trying a number of things, no middle button function. Even my simple mouse is reduced in capability and function.I don't know why you haven't just posted a question on the forums about this because it's pretty straightfoward. It's more related to the fact that UNIX traditionally used a three button mouse, assigning a specific function in X to it. If you need help with this I'm perfectly happy to talk you through it.

However, the mouse options have been extended in 7.10 to include a number of options previously only configurable through the xorg.conf file so is probably no longer an issue.

I read a lot of information concerning the xorg.conf file and how it’s suppose to work. Considered it a rather lame way to control hardware device settings, especially when whatever is used to identify the hardware devices and their properties doesn’t do a very good job of it. I should not have to manually edit a file of this type right from the start to correct errors in the device property entries nor to add entries that should have been put there in the first place.Ubuntu is Linux and Linux does some things differently. I see no problem with GUI to configure anything, but consider that if there were a problem in your configuration that stopped X opening or stopped the mouse working you would be hard pressed to get it working again with only a graphical tool. xorg.conf does aloow a high level of configuration and in your case has been problematic due to a unfortunate set of circumstances relating to your hardware that most users do not experience.

I understand that it is frustrating.

DSL Modem:

DSL modem with both USB and RJ-45 connectors. Modem is correctly identified and shows on the device manager list under the USB port headings, as well as my USB ports and controllers. No interface between them to allow for internet connection and no way of having one without some god-awful procedure that may or may not work, and if by some miracle it does it’ll be crap. Ridiculous! An internet connection using a DSL modem on a USB port should be part of the OS itself. Stuck using a network card that isn’t needed and just uses up resources.USB modems are implemented in a very non-standard method that varies with ISP/manufacturer. They are also not a particularly good implementation given the restrictions with USB - especially power and available slots. In your case I suspect that you are using an older 10 Mbs ethernet card, hence why speeds are capped.

I appreciate that USB DSL modem support is limited, however there are problems developing for them, ISP's are reluctant to provide assistance with development and obtaining systems to test on is problematic as both the hardware and ISP account are required to test and develop. Ethernet and wireless will probably continue to get the bulk of development because of their predominance however there is extensive help in setting up USB DSL in the help system and on the wiki.

XP for the most part has been stable and reliable on my system. What’s annoying about it is that it’s a resource hog, the need for constant updates, and constant maintenance to keep it happy, and god help you if you have to do a repair install and have to download and install all the security updates over again.I can understand your frustration but Ubuntu should not be marketed or advocated as a drop in replacement for Windows. They are totally different OSs and there will always be differences to be learned when moving between any OS.

As for Vista, after all the horror stories I’ve heard and seen with that, I will not be upgrading to that nightmare anytime soon.I understand this - I have a laptop that came with Vista and it's awful. However I suspect that MS will listen to the concerns and improve in a number of key areas (such as UAC and network throttling with MP3 playback) when SP1 surfaces early next year.

So you see, people can say Linux is better than Windows all they want, but it doesn’t make it true in all cases.I don't think everyone is saying Linux is always better - i know I'm not, infact for specific areas Windows has much better application support such as you have mentioned earlier.

When I can do all that I can do in Windows with equivalent kinds of programs I use there and my hardware is being used to its fullest capabilities with Linux, then I’ll make Linux my primary OS. Until then, from my point of view, it’s just kiddy stuff to play with when the mood strikes.The problem is that when you go on a public forum stating that Ubuntu is "kiddy stuff" someone will call you on it because it could disuade new users.

If it saves a new user from installing only to discover that music editing support is weak then fair enough but if it disuades people on the basis that X is difficult to configure as you have suggested then people will correct you, because in the majority of cases it isn't true.

[karellen]

I put a lot of time and effort into building my computer systems and I wouldn’t be caught dead with a HP/Compaq/Dell type of computer sitting on my desk. It took years to be able to figure what combinations of various manufacturers hardware components and their various drivers interact and work best together with programs.
:confused:....yeap, years...hope it was a useful experience...

so...what's the problem? if you don't like don't use it. if it doesn't suits your needs, don't use it. if your custom hardware is not supported, don't use it. take it for granted and appreciate every single piece of Linux. and you know why? it's free. take a break for 5 minutes and just think a little about this ;)

[rustybronco]

To the OP, thank you, I needed a reason to get acad (11c7, it's all I have) working in linux and you gave me the inititive to roll up my sleeves and do something about it.
Linux my choice..

[sidamo]

I love Ubuntu too, the only problems I have are sound and video. I don't know if it is driver problem, but video quality during DVD playback is not very clear, it's hard to explain what is happening. The only software I use for DVD playback is VLC. Maybe I should try something else.

Sorry for the reply, it should probably be in another forum.

[kelvin spratt]

Reading this Guys posts i think he has gone about things the wrong way, dying hard drives in his words crap network card, 5 days ago he was still trying to get his internet connection working Gimp is rubbish it is till you add the pluggins and 3 days is not very long to learn how to use it, I went on a collage course to use photoshop, it is very good in wine but the gimp is just as good and i took Photoshop off after a while.wavlab is a poor man's application compared to what else their is for Xp always sounded harsh to me, There are some good Linux apps that use Asio with no problem and jack is a good interface. 3 days ago he decided Linux was no good. and i support him in his decision. I think he was under the illusion that Linux is Xp but for free. but it not it took him a long time to in his words hone Xp and i think he has made the right decision for him, but i also think he will soon get fed up with Xp try Vista and then Think oops?

[KaYnemO]

You know... I really see no point in you, guys, wasting so much keyboard time over this ages old argument. Seriously, who cares?! It's like bitching and raving about how a Hyundai was not as red as Ferrari! Let him be - he made a choice and god knows, maybe it was a wise choice for him. Go on, you people, get to the unanswered posts :)

[ddrichardson]

Go on, you people, get to the unanswered posts :)

At least here people answer you back unlike 99% of unanswered post replies ;-)

[ddrichardson]

To the OP, thank you, I needed a reason to get acad (11c7, it's all I have) working in linux and you gave me the inititive to roll up my sleeves and do something about it.
Linux my choice..
Linux - doggedly proving people wrong since 1995 ;-)

[rustybronco]

Go on, you people, get to the unanswered posts :) Trying to do that also :)

[KaYnemO]

Trying to do that also :)

Actually while you are at it, anyone check out the post where the network fails to relogin after a hybernation? I would really love to see that fixed - anyone?!!!
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=3503389#post3503389

[gobuntu]

Some people want to see in dualities, black/white, good/bad, likes/dislikes.

Reality is not dual, but choices can not be denied.

I use BOTH, or NONE, or One, or the Other, depending on circumstances, causes, and conditions.

Picasso said "When I run out of blue, I use red".

Brown covers too.

-gobuntu

[ddrichardson]

Picasso said "When I run out of blue, I use red".
He also said: "Computers are useless. They can only give you answers." ;-)

[3rdalbum]

The original poster worked out what combination of hardware works best *on Windows*, then complains when it's sub-optimal on Linux. Did he really expect something different to happen?

[NoSmokingBandit]

Well, if you need to buy new hardware just to run linux then this might as well just be as bad as macs.

[ddrichardson]

Well, if you need to buy new hardware just to run linux then this might as well just be as bad as macs.

That's nonsense. Apple are and always have, tied their hardware to specific software solutions, even going as far as suing manufacturers for cloning Apple hardware. They even do it with iPods. In any case it's a different situation to Linux because they are selling a complete package - hardware, software and operating system, whereas Ubuntu is designed as a desktop and server OS for existing hardware.

Linux supports a lot more hardware out of the box than Windows does. Try it yourself, take an older machine and install a copy of XP and see how many question marks there are in the Device Manager.

It comes down to hardware manufacturers providing drivers, or at least technical information for drivers to be made. At present Windows is such a dominant OS that it is of course essential to provide Windows drivers. But when there are projects to write drivers for manufacturers without them outlaying any cost, that are not being taken up you need to ask questions of that manufacturer.

The problem is now and always has been that many people don't understand free software. They want free Windows which is not the same as free Linux.

Hardware that doesn't play with Linux is nowhere near as problematic as people are making it out to be, sure there are problem areas - particularly Laptops and Wireless.

But Linux is what it is - a free operating system that offers a large number of applications to cover most areas of computing at no extra cost.

[guyver]

Bye!

BTW, there are easy ways to install programs if they are in the repositories.

Can you please tell me where I can find this information? I have made a post asking for either Feisty or Gutsy Xubuntu locations under trying to do a floppy install using Debian Floppy disks and all I have gotten is silence.

Perhaps this is why the poster of this message sounds so frustrated? People seem indifferent about the whole matter.

[aysiu]

Can you please tell me where I can find this information? Try a Google search (http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&safe=off&q=how+to+install+software+in+ubuntu&btnG=Search). See attached screenshot for more details. I have made a post asking for either Feisty or Gutsy Xubuntu locations under trying to do a floppy install using Debian Floppy disks and all I have gotten is silence. That's not installing programs; that's installing a whole operating system. And you can't install Feisty or Gutsy with Debian floppy disks. That's why you've gotten silence. Ubuntu and Debian are related, but they are not the same system.

If you have Debian floppies and need to install by floppy, why not just install Debian instead of Ubuntu?

[NoSmokingBandit]

I have an older machine with xp on it. Everything worked right away, my linux install made me hunt for some drivers for my soundcard and wireless adapter. Not fun looking for wireless drivers, mind you. I tried about 3 different ones until i found ndiswrapper, and that only worked half of the time.
I dont see why anyone should have to buy any certain brand of hardware just to run an OS. People were telling the opthat its his fault that his hardware didnt work and thats kind of a crappy attitude coming from a community based operating system.

[mivo]

I dont see why anyone should have to buy any certain brand of hardware just to run an OS.

The problem is not that Linux "requires" any certain brand of hardware. The issue is that certain manufacturers produce hardware with only a certain OS (Windows) in mind and ignore that there are alternatives. If they do not provide drivers for any OS besides Windows and also do not provide the community with specs needed to develop drivers, then open source developers have to go to great lengths to write working drivers. They do this free of charge and usually without any support of the hardware manufacturers (who benefit from this unpaid work).

This takes time, and the more esoteric the hardware is, the more complicated it can be. This is, however, not the fault of the OS. It is the sole responsibility of the hardware makers. These should also be the contact for complaints. Linux supports a huge amount of hardware, even hardware that is not supported anymore by Windows, but if you want to be sure that you won't run into troubles, buy hardware that is fully supported.

People were telling the opthat its his fault that his hardware didnt work and thats kind of a crappy attitude coming from a community based operating system.

The OP's tone and attitude were not really that friendly either, and some people don't take kindly to that. It is a community based OS, but that also means you can't pull that "disappointed customer" stunt, because you are not a customer here. He should complain to the manufacturer of the hardware piece that is causing trouble.

I do agree that it's too easy to say "your fault, why did you not buy better supported hardware?", but it is equally off to say "Linux sucks because my undocumented, exotic, ten-things-in-one hardware isn't supported out of the box".

[NoSmokingBandit]

You are right. Linux is kind of an odd operating system to work with i guess. Since it is free, the fact that is even boots up is good news. The good thing is though that the linux market share is rising quite steadily (albeit slowly). Perhaps hardware and software (cough-adobe-cough) will realize that linux would be a good investment for them.

[sstusick]

Well, if you need to buy new hardware just to run linux then this might as well just be as bad as macs.Why don't you get your head of the sand for a minute and realize you NEED to buy new hardware just to run Vista.

As has been stated, Linux supports MORE hardware than Windows does OUT OF THE BOX. And that is FACT. Install Windows on any machine and you will have to load the drivers for most of the hardware, YOURSELF. Install Ubuntu or any distro on that same machine, and I bet that Linux will support more hardware on that machine than Windows does OUT OF THE BOX.

Ubuntu supports my media card reader, my digital camera, my HP Printer, sound card, video card, etc. ALL OUT OF THE BOX.

Now when I load Windows, I have to load EVERY SINGLE DRIVER for ALL of my hardware MYSELF.

[KaYnemO]

You are right. Linux is kind of an odd operating system to work with i guess. Since it is free, the fact that is even boots up is good news. The good thing is though that the linux market share is rising quite steadily (albeit slowly). Perhaps hardware and software (cough-adobe-cough) will realize that linux would be a good investment for them.

You know - I HAVE been using linux systems for 4 years now and I have to say that the hardware IS an issue. However, I have found that the LiveCD's allow you to actually try different distros to see whether they will match your particular system reqs. Like in my case I got PCLOS running on three desktops perfectly, but couldn't cut it on a lappie - so I put Ubuntu on the lappie and EVERYTHING worked out of the box with really minor tweaking of the xorg concerning the touchpad - done in a second - boom - now EVERYTHING works. Just gotta try a few distros and see what suits you!

[Officer Dibble]

If he had put the same amount of effort into sorting out his lack of familiarity of Ubuntu as he put into his original post I'm confident he would have had a more pleasurable experience.

I'm loving it!! :popcorn:

[julian67]

Can you please tell me where I can find this information? I have made a post asking for either Feisty or Gutsy Xubuntu locations under trying to do a floppy install using Debian Floppy disks and all I have gotten is silence.

Perhaps this is why the poster of this message sounds so frustrated? People seem indifferent about the whole matter.

Looked at your post about floppy install. You mention you checked https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/WithFloppies

but don't know how to apply it to Feisty. Well you see the bit where it says Grab the latest debootstrap_*.tar.gz followed by a link? You click the link and get the Feisty debootstrap and then follow the howto. It's all there in plain sight.

[jofwooster]

I've never used anything but Windows (aside from popping in the Live Ubuntu CD last night and playing around with it), and I found this post to be very hit and run, with little real value to it.

[NoSmokingBandit]

Why don't you get your head of the sand for a minute and realize you NEED to buy new hardware just to run Vista.

As has been stated, Linux supports MORE hardware than Windows does OUT OF THE BOX. And that is FACT. Install Windows on any machine and you will have to load the drivers for most of the hardware, YOURSELF. Install Ubuntu or any distro on that same machine, and I bet that Linux will support more hardware on that machine than Windows does OUT OF THE BOX.

Ubuntu supports my media card reader, my digital camera, my HP Printer, sound card, video card, etc. ALL OUT OF THE BOX.

Now when I load Windows, I have to load EVERY SINGLE DRIVER for ALL of my hardware MYSELF.

As i posted earlier, i have more hardware problems with linux than with windows. Actaully, with any version of windows, xp or vista. I have installed Vista ultimate (just as a demo) on my old Optiplex gx240 with 768mb ram, 1.8ghz processor, in a 30gb partition and it actually ran just fine. It was a little slow, but xp is slow compared to 2000, so thats no surprise that it would lag a little on my old beast.
I installed XP on this box and had no problems with hardware at all, every driver was loaded right away, or if it wasnt readily available windows found it via internet connection. In ubuntu 7.04 i have never had my soundcard working ever, nor have i had my wireless adapter or pci network card, so i had to use the crappy integrated one. So in my experience linux doesnt work as well on my hardware. Granted, your experience may be completely different, but typing random words in all capitals doesnt change what i said in my last post about hardware issues. So dont go about quoting your own experiences as a fact, thats really annoying and your acting like a major fanboy. Now i dont mean to sound rude, but thats just the way i see it.

[sstusick]

As i posted earlier, i have more hardware problems with linux than with windows. Actaully, with any version of windows, xp or vista. I have installed Vista ultimate (just as a demo) on my old Optiplex gx240 with 768mb ram, 1.8ghz processor, in a 30gb partition and it actually ran just fine. It was a little slow, but xp is slow compared to 2000, so thats no surprise that it would lag a little on my old beast.
I installed XP on this box and had no problems with hardware at all, every driver was loaded right away, or if it wasnt readily available windows found it via internet connection. In ubuntu 7.04 i have never had my soundcard working ever, nor have i had my wireless adapter or pci network card, so i had to use the crappy integrated one. So in my experience linux doesnt work as well on my hardware. Granted, your experience may be completely different, but typing random words in all capitals doesnt change what i said in my last post about hardware issues. So dont go about quoting your own experiences as a fact, thats really annoying and your acting like a major fanboy. Now i dont mean to sound rude, but thats just the way i see it.
I am just stating facts. Your XP machine was one rare case then. I have installed XP on many, many machines and I was lucky if it had a driver for a nic card, nevermind a video card. I may be a Linux fanboy because I like what I use, so be it. But I also want you to know that I am not the only Linux user who is lucky enough to have everything working out of the box. The case is true more often than not. But the fact remains, Linux supports more hardware out of the box. There are a few exceptions, of course.

Does your printer work out of the box on Windows? I don't think so. You have to load your little driver, right? Though it isn't so little, is it? Something like 100 mb's of crap it has to load just get your printer to print. I plug my printer in and within 30 seconds I am printing with it. No extra configuration necessary.

[perixx]

whereas Windows actually got worse :lolflag:

just so right!! Hehe... Vista has even annoyed a lot of veteran Windows users so bad, that they want to get out of this :D

And from what I've read, the support for Vista will even expire before XP (2014)
:lolflag:

The only reason I could see for using Vista is :

A) being forced because it's installed at Work / new PC's.

B) DirectX 10 for gamers - those dudes in Redmond knew what they were doing by not upgrading XP to it - although that wouldn't be too much work. I'm really curious how Linux will cope with this strategic move...

C) In terms of Multimedia support, stability and ease of configuration Windows seems to be more advanced to me. I just like to mention the annoying screen refresh setup for CRT users here (though this is gonna be changing soon at last, from what I've learned recently!) or the mime type handling.

perixx

[ticopelp]

I have to agree with sstusick. I've worked with Windows since Win 3.1 and I've never gone through a single install without having to break out a driver disc, go to a web site to find a motherboard driver or flash update, or something similar. And, to be honest, most of the time it was 10x harder than it ever was with Ubuntu. I've had way more hardware nightmares with Windows.

Of course, I also custom build all my computers -- pre-fab machines don't tend to have those kinds of problems. Shocking as it may seem, this is also true of pre-built Ubuntu machines, so in those cases, hardware working out of the box is no particular credit to the OS.

I've also almost never had Windows successfully find my hardware drivers on the Internet. Maybe twice since I've been using XP (which has been since it came out until six months ago). I won't even go into the nightmare of Win 98, where you could point the machine right to the file containing the proper driver and it'd still claim it couldn't be found.

[jbaerbock]

Stability wise I find Linux better at. Personaly I have had no end to the errors and problems in WinXP. Only time Linux has issues is when I'm stupid enough to break it lol.

Multimedia wise Mint is the answer since it comes preloaded with codecs etc... But yeah WinXP does generaly work better with these. Although I have recently had to download tons of codecs for it too.

Ease of use you really cannot compare since Linux does things in such a different way from XP. The biggest complaint I hear is no .exe install. I then patiently remmind people we have .deb and .mint which work practically the same way.

[ddrichardson]

As i posted earlier, i have more hardware problems with linux than with windows. Actaully, with any version of windows, xp or vista. I have installed Vista ultimate (just as a demo) on my old Optiplex gx240 with 768mb ram, 1.8ghz processor, in a 30gb partition and it actually ran just fine. It was a little slow, but xp is slow compared to 2000, so thats no surprise that it would lag a little on my old beast.
I installed XP on this box and had no problems with hardware at all, every driver was loaded right away, or if it wasnt readily available windows found it via internet connection. In ubuntu 7.04 i have never had my soundcard working ever, nor have i had my wireless adapter or pci network card, so i had to use the crappy integrated one. So in my experience linux doesnt work as well on my hardware. Granted, your experience may be completely different, but typing random words in all capitals doesnt change what i said in my last post about hardware issues. So dont go about quoting your own experiences as a fact, thats really annoying and your acting like a major fanboy. Now i dont mean to sound rude, but thats just the way i see it.

Then there is something very odd about your GX240 because I have Ubuntu 7.04 installed on one right now. It installed without any tweaking - soundcard definately works because Amarok is playing MP3s as I write.

When I installed XP on it, the NIC was not detected correctly, so online driver update is out of the window. This is not a flook either because the GX240's are widely used at my work too and we have problems with them using Win2k as well.

[perfecttao]

I think it already is. Too bad you have to install it yourself... maybe that preinstallation thing will be "right up there" with Windows soon.

with any luck, preinstallation through Dell will be a big thing...although they aren't pushing it as a real option yet (you have to search for Ubuntu build rather than it being in the normal OS choice list!

The issue for the majority of newbies is getting support/drivers for their hardware.....a lot of people just want to buy a PC and it work.....without extra configuration. Most of the people here aren't afraid to tinker or want to work through problems.... others do not have the time/patience/desire to devote to tweaking products!

[NoSmokingBandit]

Does your printer work out of the box on Windows? I don't think so. You have to load your little driver, right? Though it isn't so little, is it? Something like 100 mb's of crap it has to load just get your printer to print. I plug my printer in and within 30 seconds I am printing with it. No extra configuration necessary.
Actually yes. My printer has worked on every system i have without any problems.

Then there is something very odd about your GX240 because I have Ubuntu 7.04 installed on one right now. It installed without any tweaking - soundcard definately works because Amarok is playing MP3s as I write.

When I installed XP on it, the NIC was not detected correctly, so online driver update is out of the window. This is not a flook either because the GX240's are widely used at my work too and we have problems with them using Win2k as well.
I should have said that i have a SBLive! soundcard. The integrated hardware works, but it sucks anyway. You cant do any kind of quality audio editing on an integrated sound card. Regardless, windows likes my hardware more than linux does. Thats just the way it is, so telling me everyone else is fine and dandy doesnt make things any easier for the small group of people like me.

[ddrichardson]

Regardless, windows likes my hardware more than linux does. Thats just the way it is, so telling me everyone else is fine and dandy doesnt make things any easier for the small group of people like me.
I really don't see what your point is. You state that Ubuntu doesn't work with many of the components in your machine, yet when called on it by someone else actually using the same hardware you admit only the sound card is problematic.

If it works out of the box with Windows I strongly suspect given my experience with these machines you are comparing a vanilla Ubuntu disc with a COA version of Windows XP.

I most certainly am not telling you every one elses hardware is "fine and dandy", I'm simply calling you on your comments about a known hardware setup. As for sound editing I, we've already covered that, yes its a deficiency in currently available software, but having said that its also a fairly specialised area in which Linux has not traditionally been pushed.

I couldn't care less what operating system anyone is using, in fact as I have stated on repeated occasions it depends greatly on what you want to do with a computer as to what OS you choose. What I do care about is responding to inaccurate information.

[NoSmokingBandit]

No, i said my network card, sound card, and wireless adapter dont work. I was clarifying that i dont use the integrated soundcard on my gx240.

[ddrichardson]

No, i said my network card, sound card, and wireless adapter dont work. I was clarifying that i dont use the integrated soundcard on my gx240.The fact is you are stating that it doesn't work on a GX240 when you actually mean it doesn't work with your GX240 with additional hardware installed.

Anyone reading the testimonial thread would have been mislead into believing that the GX240 doesn't work out of the box with 7.04 when it does.

[NoSmokingBandit]

regardless, windows likes my hardware and linux doesnt.

[jonathonblake]

The issue for the majority of newbies is getting support/drivers for their hardware.....a lot of people just want to buy a PC and it work.....without extra configuration.

Well that rules out Windows, Limnux,and BSD.

others do not have the time/patience/desire to devote to tweaking products!

Idon't mind tweaking stuff, if I can find it to tweak.
(IOW, why can't I get win2k printer drivers for my win2K system for my HP Deskjet 540? (Is there anything sillier than porting Linux drivers to Windows, when the Linux drivers were reverse engineered from Windows? ))

xan

jonathon

[perixx]

Hmm... Mint... interesting! Do you think it has advantages in terms of gaming-support also? Is Wine included aswell?

I'm using Xubuntu 7.04 and had trouble with Thunar several times now, locking itself and other Thunar windows up, so I had to use the process manager. Also this annoyance with a faulty screensaver, that caused complete system-lockup and screensaver-manager's inaccessibility (solved that finally). More conflicts with the presentation-app of OpenOffice, producing an application based hangup every time I try to open .ppt or .pps files (I can kill it with Alt+F4). Also, I'm not able to play Audio CD's with an out-of-the-box Xubuntu, for Gxine keeps starting/stopping playback all the time!

I have no idea, if some of the problems described here are caused by the apps or Xubuntu itself, or both. But it's as I experienced it. Besides, I have a subjective feeling that many of the apps used in Ubuntu (and other Distros) are command-line based script GUI's that tend to be a bit slow in access and unstable, like Gxine (really, hadn't good experiences with this one under 3 Distro's now).

I must admit that Ubuntu isn't all bad and one can do a lots of things with it - if he's ready to invest some time. It might be useful if the complete menu structure was completely redone in a more logical and straightforward way... many of the sub-menus under Application > System and Application > Preferences/Options could be perfectly combined into fewer main categories, making it better to read and access things quickly. I for one find it pretty irritating to have many similarly named menus clutched together. This should be arranged in a more intuitive style, I'd say.

A major drawback of Linux / Ubuntu is as told, the provided drivers, rendering even many stone-age-old graphic cards nearly unusable (like mine ATI rage 128) and even more if it comes to brand new hardware. Or printing. I know that in this respect mostly the hardware vendors are to blame, but the outcome is pretty user-unfriendly if it comes to getting a system up and running at times, even for experienced computer users, not to speak of newbies.

perixx

[sstusick]

Actually yes. My printer has worked on every system i have without any problems. . You mean you plug your printer in and it "just works?" You didn't have to load anything into the machine on Windows? Wow... it must really be an old printer or you have a one-in-a-million printer.

regardless, windows likes my hardware and linux doesnt.

:lolflag: :lolflag: :lolflag: :lolflag:

[NoSmokingBandit]

My printer is one of those HP all-in-one deals.
Post your smart-*** :lolflag: all you want, linux doesnt like my hardware.

lol, the forum edited out @$$

I like linux, dont get me wrong, but until linux starts liking me back i dont think i can completely move over. I'll install 7.10 to see how things turn out, but unless i can get a few key problems fixed i just cant use it. My OS is just a means to an end, and if one works better than the other, im goin to use it. I love linux for how fast and customizable it is, but hardware vendors suck at making stuff compatible. Nvidia got it right by offering linux drivers, why cant other guys figure it out?

[sstusick]

My printer is one of those HP all-in-one deals.
Post your smart-*** :lolflag: all you want, linux doesnt like my hardware.

lol, the forum edited out @$$

I like linux, dont get me wrong, but until linux starts liking me back i dont think i can completely move over. I'll install 7.10 to see how things turn out, but unless i can get a few key problems fixed i just cant use it. My OS is just a means to an end, and if one works better than the other, im goin to use it. I love linux for how fast and customizable it is, but hardware vendors suck at making stuff compatible. Nvidia got it right by offering linux drivers, why cant other guys figure it out?
I think that is one of your better posts on this thread. I agree, if something works for you better than the other, then use it. You'd be foolish not to. Linux has come a long way in the past few years...and I can only imagine how much better it will be a few years from now. Stick with Windows for now and try Linux again in the future. Hopefully your issues will be resolved by then.

[KaYnemO]

My printer is one of those HP all-in-one deals.
Post your smart-*** :lolflag: all you want, linux doesnt like my hardware.

lol, the forum edited out @$$

I like linux, dont get me wrong, but until linux starts liking me back i dont think i can completely move over. I'll install 7.10 to see how things turn out, but unless i can get a few key problems fixed i just cant use it. My OS is just a means to an end, and if one works better than the other, im goin to use it. I love linux for how fast and customizable it is, but hardware vendors suck at making stuff compatible. Nvidia got it right by offering linux drivers, why cant other guys figure it out?

That is an interesting question. The other guys can't and don't want to figure it out just yet simply because they are intimidated by a few large players on the market like gates' gang and the jolly mac's team. Before their eyes, despite what they all said and thought, linux is really taking off good. If the number of the linux users in a given commercially vital country like US or UK and worldwide will reach a certain level, the hardware people will have to start using their resources to write the right drivers and patches so they work in linux. Of course gates' gang and the rest are going to kick and spit for sometime, but some vendors like Dell are already allowing their customers some options toward linux - like preinstalled distros on their freshly sold pcs. This said it is more then clear that to get the vendors to make the drivers for the linux world and the software as well btw, you must not only stay yourself, but more then that - you must bring people in! good luck! :lolflag:

[soujiro14]

Sorry guys and gals, I'm gave it a shot and I;m going to have to say good bye to Linux and Ubuntu. Without wireless support and an easy way to install programs, this is something that I'm not going to get. I'm a windows user and that's all there is to it.

I tried, but it just isn't going to work.

Oddly enough, I was getting much better wireless support on Linux than Windows, and without any config whatsoever, it was automatic. Of course, this is just me.

[jbaerbock]

Took a tad of config for me (ndiswrapper) but yeah I get better signal strength in Linux.

[ddrichardson]

Nvidia got it right by offering linux drivers, why cant other guys figure it out?
Yet you say eariler:
Well, if you need to buy new hardware just to run linux then this might as well just be as bad as macs.
You can only affect change by voting with your wallet. Now, I'm not suggesting anyone should have to buy new hardware to get Ubuntu running, but if I'm buying new hardware now, I only buy that which either works under Linux or for which the drivers are provided by the manufacturer.

Otherwise the status quo remains.

[frankos44]

I have been a Microsoft developer for about 20 years.

Imagine what ive been though taking the plunge and changing to Linux. All my software was basically scrap and i nearly backed out at one point.

However, I became increasingly depressed by Microsoft's Waffle and fancy names for what usually turned out to be something simple only to confuse the very people who make Microsoft a viable proposition in the first place.

That coupled with very poor security which will never change no matter what they do relying on "after the event" software" to protect itself, I decided enough is enough.

I can honestly say, 1 year later I will never go back to windows.

Another point is the kids (also running Ubuntu) dont break there computers anymore. Now i can spend that wasted time in the garden with a cup of tea instead.

Its been hard work to start with so stick with it and you will be rewarded!

Anyone else agree with me?

[mivo]

My printer is one of those HP all-in-one deals.

Well, that is the sort of hardware that I would simply never buy -- if I buy a printer, I buy a printer, not a printer-fax-scanner-copier-coffeemaker. The more exotic a piece of hardware is, the more it requires the manufacturer to provide a driver or at least the needed information for someone to write a driver.

So, again, thinking that "Linux does not support my HP device" is the wrong approach. The issue is that "HP does not support Linux". This is more than a rhetoric difference. You should be at the HP forums and complain that HP does not support Linux, not here at the Ubuntu forums and complain that Linux does not support your device. It is the fault of HP, not the fault of Linux.

Only you can decide how much freedom is worth to you.

[NoSmokingBandit]

Yet you say eariler:

You can only affect change by voting with your wallet. Now, I'm not suggesting anyone should have to buy new hardware to get Ubuntu running, but if I'm buying new hardware now, I only buy that which either works under Linux or for which the drivers are provided by the manufacturer.

Otherwise the status quo remains.
I am lucky i suppose that i like nvidia more than ati anyway, so it turned out well for me, but if ati started distibuting linux drivers their sales would go up a bit. Not a whole lot, but enough to make it worth writing the driver. Nonetheless, if i want to use an ati card with linux, they should allow me to do that. Its like the hardware manufacturers are scared that people might move over to linux, and i dont understand why. Logically, the more people you make your product easily available to, the more will buy it. Anyone looking for a video card on the forum will always be directed to Nvidia simply because they want us to use their cards. ATI seems to only want windows users to use their cards, which is getting close to the proprietary hardware/software combo apple has going on.

Well, that is the sort of hardware that I would simply never buy -- if I buy a printer, I buy a printer, not a printer-fax-scanner-copier-coffeemaker. The more exotic a piece of hardware is, the more it requires the manufacturer to provide a driver or at least the needed information for someone to write a driver.

So, again, thinking that "Linux does not support my HP device" is the wrong approach. The issue is that "HP does not support Linux". This is more than a rhetoric difference. You should be at the HP forums and complain that HP does not support Linux, not here at the Ubuntu forums and complain that Linux does not support your device. It is the fault of HP, not the fault of Linux.

Only you can decide how much freedom is worth to you.
I got the all-in-one simply because it was cheap and takes up a little bit of desk space. I wish it made coffee, that would be sweet :)

[soxs]

If you don't like linux, simply leave us.
If you have trubble with configuring ubuntu, tell us, we will find a fix, but don't tell us *linux is no viable OS". This is simply not true.

[ddrichardson]

ATI seems to only want windows users to use their cards, which is getting close to the proprietary hardware/software combo apple has going on.There is an open source initiative with AMD/ATI, explained here (http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=826&num=1). In fact ATI was purchased by AMD last June (http://www.amd.com/us-en/Corporate/VirtualPressRoom/0,,51_104_543%7E110899,00.html).

They are apparently undertaking a project to rewrite the ATI open source driver, although I haven't seen much of this but they have opened up specs and code (http://www.linux.com/feature/119049).

Coincidentally, to explain why hardware manufacturers are afraid to open up to Linux could be a number of factors - the cost of developing new drivers, the relatively small market share Linux holds or may simply be hanging back until all these patent trolls stop hunting around after potential (although dubious) intelectual property lawsuits, opening up thier code may expose them to such suits. And I think we all know who's behind that.

[NoSmokingBandit]

a driver from the manufacturer cant be costly to make... Linux devs have made their own drivers for some stuff and they dont even have all the documentation the manufacturer has.

[perixx]

Hmm... don't you think it's more likely that Ubuntu simply shows higher signal levels?

Since that is a physical factor, it hardly can be influenced by software, even more with the same hardware. Unless Ubuntu can detect and choose different channels (other frequency ranges) with higher signal gain better than Windows.

perixx

[ddrichardson]

a driver from the manufacturer cant be costly to make... Linux devs have made their own drivers for some stuff and they dont even have all the documentation the manufacturer has.Are you serious? People doing things in their free time is free, but a company devoting resources and personnel away from other projects costs them money. Not to mention that thier current development staff are likely, given their current target platforms, Windows devs - so there may also be an overhead in either training staff or hiring new staff.

Remember that these companies pay their development staff. Redhat and IBM for example have put a lot of money and resources into Linux.

[NoSmokingBandit]

well, obviously they pay their people, but it cant take up a whole lot of time. From what i understand its easier to code for a unix based system than dos/NT, right?

[Angelo DePalma]

I can understand the original poster's frustration. YES his post was about venting, and YES it was about rubbing his problems in your face.

But it's hard to blame him.

I've never seen the claim that Linux is going to take over the world. However, I have read that it's a viable, free alternative OS. I did a lot of research and became intrigued with the idea of installing it. So I finally took the plunge, and tried setting it up as dual-boot on a new Vista machine. At one point I was faced with the dreaded "disk partition" screens and got stuck.

I searched and searched for installation information. Specifically, how to partition my hard drive and what all that gobbledeegook means in the LiveCD installation screens. To no avail. Am I the only person in the world who feels a bit queazy about screwing around -- essentially blind, because I didn't know what I was doing -- with the hard drive on a new $700 computer?

Everyone who tried to help me -- and I am genuinely touched by the generous donation of their time -- began explaining at a level that was way over my head. I'm not an idiot, nor am I a computer-phobe, but sorry I just can't bring myself to make permanent changes to my hard drive without knowing what I'm doing. Posters promised they'd help me, then disappeared.

Eventually I reached the point where I figured, hell, if this is what my foray into a new OS depends on, I'd better just stick with Vista.

Until today, when I decided that maybe installing on a new, fresh, separate hard drive would be the way to go. I was in Staples and bought a 300 G drive for just $69. It's still in the box, and will probably remain there until I return it some time next week.

Because...as I expected, there is really no comprehensible explanation on how to set up a dual-boot system on two hard drives. Oh, there's information about "GRUB" and various other indecipherable gobbledeegook, but nothing someone like me could understand.

Getting back to rubbing crap in your faces...I see it this way. I've wasted the equivalent of about two work days and I'm still nowhere in terms of installing Ubuntu. Ubuntu has stolen my time by delivering a product without proper documentation and instructions. I'm mad, just like the original poster. That's why I understand why he fired his final volley into the world of Ubuntu.

If he's annoyed you try to put yourself in his (or my) position.

Have fun.

I then posted on one of these forums over the course of a few days, and nobody was able to help me. I don't feel like going through those problems again in this forum, but you know what? I'm sorry to say that it's very tempting to bash the people who hang out on these forums.

You're all evidently very good at computers, at software, at resolving problems through your extensive experience. Most people who see the word "Linux" and become intrigued are not on your level.

Maybe I'm missing something but I really do not understand this type of post.

It offers nothing of any value into an insight into new users plights, nothing towards suggested improvement and certainly isn't going to fall on the ears of anyone who can change it - I mean how many Autocad developers are on this forum?

Is it just about venting? Is it about frustration, anger or is it just a dig at the very people who offer up their free time to help others?

If everything about Windows works so well for this user then why on earth did they even install Ubuntu - there has to have been something on offer or at least something missing from thier current system.

Why do these people feel that I might care? What makes them think that all Linux users are evangelical in thier attitude towards OSs?

So many questions. I don't like to feed the trolls but this really intrigues me - why bother whining about it if you don't care if it changes?

[ddrichardson]

well, obviously they pay their people, but it cant take up a whole lot of time. From what i understand its easier to code for a unix based system than dos/NT, right?Perhaps in some circumstances but that doesn't alter the fact that many companies shy away from open source as they don't want to open their code, which is of course entirely within their rights. As for time - check out this post from Greg KH (http://kerneltrap.org/Linux/Linux_Driver_Project) to get some idea of the number of people involved in driver development.

[ddrichardson]

I can understand the original poster's frustration. YES his post was about venting, and YES it was about rubbing his problems in your face.

But it's hard to blame him.
Yet he and indeed yourself feel it's fair game to complain about free support provided by volunteers.

At one point I was faced with the dreaded "disk partition" screens and got stuck.
I really don't see what else we can do to improve partitioning. Ten years ago it was viewed as a major problem and the installers available generally centred around fdisk or cfdisk which were really unfriendly. However, given there are now a million howtos on setting up hard drive partitions, and that the help system on the live cd even covers how to do it, there ultimately has to be a point where we can go no further making this easy.

I'm not an idiot, nor am I a computer-phobe, but sorry I just can't bring myself to make permanent changes to my hard drive without knowing what I'm doing. Posters promised they'd help me, then disappeared.

I can't speak for them, but as I typically only pick up responses to unanswered posts greater than 24 hours old I often don't see posts that don't explain fully.

It's straight forward: Your hard disk is a lump of storage space. Partitioning divides this space into smaller chunks. You then have a chunk for Windows and two chunks for Linux.

Currently, all the space is setup for Windows, so it needs to made smaller so there is room for Linux. This is done from Windows Vista. If you search for "can I repartition my disk" in the Help it talks you through it.

When you boot Ubuntu Live CD, choose "Manual Partitioing", create a single swap partition that's twice the size of your memory. Then use the remaining space to create an ext3 partition and label it as "/".

EDIT: This will not damage your hardware, the only caveat is if you have a recovery partition - leave it alone. Of course remember to backup too.

Because...as I expected, there is really no comprehensible explanation on how to set up a dual-boot system on two hard drives.
Yes there is! It's right there in the Live CD in the System Help!

Ubuntu has stolen my time by delivering a product without proper documentation and instructions. I'm mad, just like the original poster.

And after having worked like a possessed man over the last few months fixing bugs and adding new sections to the system documentation you could then understand my frustration when people don't even look at it - the icon is right there on the bar!!!!

If he's annoyed you try to put yourself in his (or my) position.OK you put yourself in ours!.

[measekite]

The idea that Linux is out to destroy Windows was started by Linux zealots who dont want to conform to a certain companies practices.

The statement above is sort of true and sort of false. The truth is that Windows is slowly being destroyed by Linux because Windows is destroying Windows.

Poor memory management, many crashes, too expensive and copy protection plus overpriced 3rd party and MS software.

As time progresses the hardware mfg will realize there is a market out their for them to make money. Dell too a small step. HP took a small step. You know one giant leap for mankind.

And slowly but surely open source software is becoming good enough and may soon be on the same playing field and the pricier versions.

I plan on purchasing $1,000 of camera equipment that Bill Gates is helping me buy because I am hoping to make Linux work for me.

And yes Photoshop is better than Gimp. Soon there will be a new Gimp version that is better but still not as good as PS but hopefully it will be good enough. I am hoping to get comparable results but I do expect that Gimp will be more work to get them.

[mivo]

Because...as I expected, there is really no comprehensible explanation on how to set up a dual-boot system on two hard drives. Oh, there's information about "GRUB" and various other indecipherable gobbledeegook, but nothing someone like me could understand.

Let's assume you have a computer with an existing Linux installation and decide to install Vista as a second OS. What do you think will happen? Will you even get the option to install a boot-loader? No, of course not.

Linux, in this case Ubuntu, gives you MORE installation choices and MORE flexibility than Windows, and yet you complain about the effort it takes to figure out how to make use of these additional possibilities. You can use the "guided" installation choices, and let Ubuntu handle everything. Then you will have the same amount of choice that Vista gives you (actually, a little more), or you can put a little effort into understanding a different concept. It is not difficult, it is just different.

You could have learned all you need to know about how to make a dual-boot system in the time it took you to write a post about how Ubuntu cannot read your mind. If you have a non-standard set-up, you will need to learn some new things, just like you would with Vista. Ubuntu offers the SAME basic choices as Vista.(wipe the disc and monopolize the system), but a lot more in addition.

The only reason why you don't have any problems of this kind with Vista is because you installed it first. Install Linux first, and then try to install Vista as the second OS. You will be surprised.

You're all evidently very good at computers, at software, at resolving problems through your extensive experience. Most people who see the word "Linux" and become intrigued are not on your level.

Like I said, if you installed Linux as your first OS, like you do Vista, you would never even run into these situations. It would just be like installing Vista. And all the information that you need is readily available on these forums, plus a community that will try to help you.

On a side note, are you the Angelo DePalma who posts on the chess usenet groups?

[bsalt]

Hey guys, just a quick heads up - I decided to dual boot my desktop with Ubuntu and XP, but Ubuntu 7.04 did not work with my wireless card I have in it, so I got pretty discouraged. I even tried compiling the driver from the manufacturer's website, and had no luck. I downloaded the Gutsy Beta, reinstalled it in the same partition, and now it works like a charm. If any of you have problems with basic hardware (network, audio, video) try Gutsy out or wait until the full release comes out in 5 days. You just might like what you see. It has lots of great improvements and is even easier to use. The greatest addon is the Screen and Graphics tool, where you can easily configure your monitor, a second monitor, how you want the second monitor to act (clone or xinerama), and what monitor it is. It also can automatically search your network for printers and install them is so painless, it's great. It also includes by default the 3d desktop, so enabling it is as easy as a click of a button.

I could go on and on, but I highly recommend you try the new version before you skip out of the greatest OS out there.

[NoSmokingBandit]

Perhaps in some circumstances but that doesn't alter the fact that many companies shy away from open source as they don't want to open their code, which is of course entirely within their rights. As for time - check out this post from Greg KH (http://kerneltrap.org/Linux/Linux_Driver_Project) to get some idea of the number of people involved in driver development.

Does it have to be open-source to be a linux driver (serious question because i really dont know). Nero did a good job at offering their product to linux users while remaining closed source. Heck, they even let you use the code you have for the windows version. That took balls to offer a product for essentially nothing (unless people own it already they would just use something open source like gnomebaker). It would be nice if the rest of the world followed nero. But of course that is different than a driver, but are closed-source drivers even an option?

[sstusick]

If you can't even install Linux.. that is sad. Stick with OS For Dummies... aka Windows.

I guess you can't find your way to Google either. There are TONS and TONS of tutorials online showing you how to install Ubuntu STEP BY STEP.
Here's one right here: http://news.softpedia.com/news/How-to-Install-Ubuntu-7-04-Windows-User-P-O-V-52973.shtml

Ta-ta and don't let the door hit you on the way out.

[aysiu]

Does it have to be open-source to be a linux driver (serious question because i really dont know). No, it doesn't.

There are several possible situations:

1. The company opens the code to the driver and allows Linux developers to include it in the Linux kernel

2. The company releases its own closed source Linux driver, which Linux users will have to install themselves (in the case of Nvidia, for instance)

3. The company does not release the code for the driver or their own native Linux driver and...
3a. ... Linux developers reverse engineer the driver somehow
3b. ... Linux users use ndiswrapper to somehow use the native Windows driver

4. There is no solution. The hardware is unusable in Linux.

[jbaerbock]

QUOTE: How about an installer that says...."Analyzing hard drive space....You have 150Gb of free space...How much of this space do you wish to devote to Ubuntu?" and then the goddamned program simply does the rest?

What version of Ubuntu are you running? When partition manager during the installation comes up it gives you the option to resize your windows partition and use the freed space to install Ubuntu. This is all automatic all you have to do is slide the slider bar to the left a ways and click next. And it will setup Linux partitions and bootloader etc... for you.

The above is exactly how I did my dual boot (WinXP and Linux) and it worked perfectly off the bat.

Oh and try installing Windows from scratch, it is a LOT more difficult than Ubuntu.

[ddrichardson]

Its "support" only in the loosest definition of the term. It's sporadic, hit and miss, unreliable, time-consuming.
My mistake, I thought I could help. When actually you are just trolling.

[jonathonblake]

Ubuntu cannot read your mind.

It can't? My system automatically configured itself to dual boot.(Linux & XP. And for some strange reason, installing Ubuntu enabled XP to boot.)

xan

jonathon

[Fitzy_oz]

The truth is that Windows is slowly being destroyed by Linux because Windows is destroying Windows.

Poor memory management, many crashes, too expensive and copy protection plus overpriced 3rd party and MS software.

I would have to agree.
Ubuntu still has it's flaws and is in some places rough around the edges and there are some issues with h/w that can only be solved by time or a little help from the manufacturers. You would have to be blind not to see the gap being closed not just by linux growing in maturity and usability, but in the constant failures and inability to meet expectations with each windows release.

[NoSmokingBandit]

No, it doesn't.

There are several possible situations:

1. The company opens the code to the driver and allows Linux developers to include it in the Linux kernel

2. The company releases its own closed source Linux driver, which Linux users will have to install themselves (in the case of Nvidia, for instance)

3. The company does not release the code for the driver or their own native Linux driver and...
3a. ... Linux developers reverse engineer the driver somehow
3b. ... Linux users use ndiswrapper to somehow use the native Windows driver

4. There is no solution. The hardware is unusable in Linux.

well, ok then. It confuses me as to why people like ati cant make closed-source drivers for linux. Certainly their increased sales would outweigh the cost of writing the driver...
I though ndiswrapper was only for network devices... I may have read something wrong somewhere.

[|Eric|]

to original post:
1st download software as debian packages installs without problems
also look at the repositories lots (if not all) software are present there

2nd wireless is suported as much in windows as in linux the problem is you have to "import" your windows drivers most of the time since you have to install a driver in windows too there is no diff there is it ?

all distro of linux lack wireless drivers because wirless card makers kinda tend to forget linux exist & that is if its not boycoted by the so said companny (some realy do **** me off )

too bad it didnt work for you but did you actualy take every thing in account : ie how many drivers you had to install what software actualy came with your windows ( that does exclude pirated software does it ?)
linux is free & legal!

Please if you have problem with linux & your wireless dont give up! There is many tutorial out here on how to install those drivers ...

Well choice is your freedom mein friend !

[Futto]

"Why do people feel the need to post this?"

Well, understand that he's actually doing everyone a favor by listing the reasons the product didn't work for him. Most people use Windows, so for Linux in any variety to have a shot at growth it has to appeal to a Windows-user's expectations. This guy took issue with the lack (or apparent lack) of support for wireless equipment and the installation procedure for additional software. If many other users are also turned off by these issues, it's something for the programming community to try to work on.

S.W.

I happened to find this thread while browsing for something else and I thought I would add my opinions and experiences with Ubuntu to it.

Linux has come on a lot since I tried it, probably mainly because I actually put a effort into trying to make it work this time around, however in my opinion it is still not suitable for a non-technical user desktop operating system. Having said that, if a technical user with a lot of experience sets the machine up in the factory, once all the problems have been ironed out it's pretty good.

In 7.04 my wireless didn't work, the installed languages broke OpenOffice leaving the OS pretty useless. I was going back and forth between Windows trying to solve problems. The process of installing Ubuntu and getting basic applications working (OpenOffice, Jedit, GHC, Java JDK) took me a day and a half - far more than the couple of hours it took me to get Vista working. It then took me a further week and a half, and a distribution upgrade, to get the wireless working.

When Linux works out of the box it works well, when it doesn't work out of the box it's really hard to get things solved. Documentation is improving but everything relies on forum posts, downloading packages with funny names and running meaningless command line programs.

If the packages are in the repo then installation is amazingly easy, however I personally think Linux needs a unified way of distributing packages accross all different distributions as far as possible - something that compiles specifically for a machine with minimal dependancies. Most users, including me, have huge problems when having to compile anything from source and this is really discoraging - on 7.04 I spent half an hour trying to compile Pidgin from source and gave up in the end - the Linux community needs to get closer to a point and click system as they have in Windows for all packages without the need for the repo.

I also don't understand the random selection of items that have been GUI'd - we still have a GUI system that can configure a few things but most configurating still has to be done through the terminal. If we're doing something we should do it well!

If you think about the cost of Windows, say around £80 (with a new PC) and a few hours of work and the cost of Linux (for me) £0 and probably two or three days (on and off, of course) of work getting a fully functioning system that can do everything my Windows system can, Windows looks like better value. It does more "out-of-the box" and expansion is easier, mainly because it is better supported. Linux is too archane and inconsistant and doing pretty much anything that isn't in the box is exceptionally frustating. I really hope the Linux community can keep improving Linux while keeping its heritage, however I have to say that I'm not sure Linux will ever make it as a serious desktop operating system; I think that to do that would require a new OS designed for that purpose from the ground with a set of standard guidelines for all distributions that follow it.

[perixx]

Hmm.

First, I thought it was childish of some
people assuming there are some

FUD-TROLLS straying around...

Now, I'm not so sure anymore...
I tried to post some helpful lines to

):P "Angelo DePalma" ):P

regarding his 'problem'-with-partitioning-thread. I know that at least a handful of ppl. have sent along links with plain-simple-as-bread explanations on how to solve it.

When I wanted to send my last post to him, the thread was CLOSED due to troll'ing by a moderator.

So, the question would be - is that guy:
a) a wimp
b) drunk
c) a real troll, like them in 'Lord of the Rings' ?

:)

Regarding:

a) lots of ex-Windows users make their way through this forums, in the hope (and consciousness) that Linux is improving increasingly fast - including my humble self.
So, if one hasn't got the nerve of putting a little effort into struggling to get free from the Micro-kraken or 'tweaking' Linux a bit, to fit his needs (Oh, how I love tweaking Windooze =), I'd advise him to search for something simpler, like a gameboy or so :biggrin:.

b) wait till he's sober again *reset brain.com*

c) A sorry thing. :(
If Mickysoft really feels so weak and fears the superior programmer-powers of Linux-dev's (or can't afford to buy them all :P) - and they need to FUD around in forums like kids in a sandbox, this only shows how desperate their situation is even by now! And that we're really in great peril of loosing the gift of enlightening 'Windows' pretty soon ):P

perixx

[|Eric|]

ok ill say this : windows+office (500-600$CAD) = Open Office+Ubuntu (0$) so thats about a weeks pay right ? plus cout the time to install all of those GRaphicsCard + Motherboard +soundcard + network card plus printer + scanner + ipod drivers (yesss! ALL THOSE DRIVERS!!!) plus AV firewall + anti spyware + config just about every thing + games & that dreadful 1hour install of office! i installed Ubuntu on my bros PC (p3 1Ghz 300Mo Ram) YES Pentium 3! one hour including wireless drivers & printer drivers oh gess what he had a prob with sound (enlinghtment sound +Alsa but thats my fault ;) ) so hum what costed more ? hum ... i wonder ... (my bro swears by it! [from win98] )
ill fix every thing this weekend... in about another hour (yess i'll put him on xubuntu instead)



ok wireless dosent work out the box so what your a user & you install a system then you complain about OS not being friendly ... well gess what windows still requires more efforts than ubuntu ....

i mean by that put the CD in click next or read instruction ... in french or english on the same CD !! aint that nice ?

linux does recongnise your hardware as good as windows actualy it does the same thing exept you dont have search button for your driver ...
type a Lspci (lowercase) in a terminal & you will see what i mean
(ls + pci = list pci= lspci ) (actualy with "sudo " in front & this IS for your the SAFETY of your data)

try it at your scool or a internet cafe just boot into the live CD & try it on the net Im pretty shure you cant do that with your windows CD ....
(btw notice when you first boot your windows its in 256 color thats the missing video card driver...after installing)

[jbaerbock]

I happened to find this thread while browsing for something else and I thought I would add my opinions and experiences with Ubuntu to it.

Linux has come on a lot since I tried it, probably mainly because I actually put a effort into trying to make it work this time around, however in my opinion it is still not suitable for a non-technical user desktop operating system. Having said that, if a technical user with a lot of experience sets the machine up in the factory, once all the problems have been ironed out it's pretty good.

In 7.04 my wireless didn't work, the installed languages broke OpenOffice leaving the OS pretty useless. I was going back and forth between Windows trying to solve problems. The process of installing Ubuntu and getting basic applications working (OpenOffice, Jedit, GHC, Java JDK) took me a day and a half - far more than the couple of hours it took me to get Vista working. It then took me a further week and a half, and a distribution upgrade, to get the wireless working.

When Linux works out of the box it works well, when it doesn't work out of the box it's really hard to get things solved. Documentation is improving but everything relies on forum posts, downloading packages with funny names and running meaningless command line programs.

If the packages are in the repo then installation is amazingly easy, however I personally think Linux needs a unified way of distributing packages accross all different distributions as far as possible - something that compiles specifically for a machine with minimal dependancies. Most users, including me, have huge problems when having to compile anything from source and this is really discoraging - on 7.04 I spent half an hour trying to compile Pidgin from source and gave up in the end - the Linux community needs to get closer to a point and click system as they have in Windows for all packages without the need for the repo.

I also don't understand the random selection of items that have been GUI'd - we still have a GUI system that can configure a few things but most configurating still has to be done through the terminal. If we're doing something we should do it well!

If you think about the cost of Windows, say around £80 (with a new PC) and a few hours of work and the cost of Linux (for me) £0 and probably two or three days (on and off, of course) of work getting a fully functioning system that can do everything my Windows system can, Windows looks like better value. It does more "out-of-the box" and expansion is easier, mainly because it is better supported. Linux is too archane and inconsistant and doing pretty much anything that isn't in the box is exceptionally frustating. I really hope the Linux community can keep improving Linux while keeping its heritage, however I have to say that I'm not sure Linux will ever make it as a serious desktop operating system; I think that to do that would require a new OS designed for that purpose from the ground with a set of standard guidelines for all distributions that follow it.

Why in blazes would you try to configure Pidgin from source? For one it comes in a .deb if you search for it. Also 7.04 came with gaim installed which is the same thing as pidgin for the most part. I have yet to compile anything. Everything I have needed was pre-installed or available in repos or downloadable in .mint or .deb and therefore installable with double click.

Also what have you been configuring through the terminal? I have set up themes, tweaked settings etc... and never once hopped into the terminal.

[sstusick]

Compile Pidgin from source? Say it isn't so.

http://www.getdeb.net/ anyone?

[ddrichardson]

I think that to do that would require a new OS designed for that purpose from the ground with a set of standard guidelines for all distributions that follow it.
I think the same thing about Microsoft Windows ;-)

[Smaf]

Heh, I don't think I could leave Ubuntu. I mean, problems are actually fixable in ubuntu. In Windows, you have to be pretty lucky for a problem to be fixable.
Half the fun I have with Ubuntu is with trying to sort things out, get various things working, fix any problems that crop up. I enjoy it, and I can feel free to enjoy it because I know that generally, unlike with windows, there's some hope that things will work. Especially with this forum around!
Someday, I might do something *really* masochistic, and install gentoo. *grin*

[wolfen69]

i cant believe this thread is still alive. oops, i just bumped it.

[ticopelp]

Compiling Pidgin from source was one of my first Linux "projects." It's not that hard, is it?

[bsalt]

Compiling Pidgin from source was one of my first Linux "projects." It's not that hard, is it?


It shouldn't be too hard, ticopelp, but I wouldn't compile it. In 3 days, Ubuntu Gutsy (7.10) will release, and it has Pidgin in it by default. Or, if you want to, you can try upgrading your machine from Feisty to Gutsy. To upgrade, run this command in a terminal:

sudo update-manager --dist-upgrade


I upgraded my Dell Inspiron 6000 notebook and had no problems, maybe you won't either. If you do, just get to a point where you can back up your home folder and other data if needed, and then download/install Gutsy from scratch. It's great, you won't regret it.

[froy02]

I'm sorry to hear you giving up on Ubuntu. I am trying it because:
1) my pc's have removal ide and sata drives so i can just remove one operating system and plug in another drive.
2) I am sort of incapacitated since 2 months ago and could not go anywhere so time is not an issue.
3) I used to be MS-Dos user and now a Windows user but the money I spend on Windows software is just too much. With 2 desktops and 2 laptops for family use, Installing 4 MS Office software is just too much.
So far I can my daughter and I could do just about everything in Ubuntu that we do in Windows XP and Vista.

It took me 3 days to finally install the drivers for my Brother multi-function machine, but I learned a lot about the OS.

The one thing I would like to see is to make changes without going to terminal.

It's all about over-priced OS and software so I'll keep experimenting with it.

Froy Lapid

[hvc123]

dunno what the issue is

ubuntu is the easiest linux distro i have ever played with.
my fav distro is Gentoo but i currently use gutsy (compiz rules) the only reason i keep blows (winblows) is for cod2.

[EowynCarter]

right now, i have a big partition for windows, and a smaller one for linux.

I might change this someday, once i can get most of my game run on linux, without having to spend hours figuring it out.

[bsalt]

EowynCarter, you might want to try Cedega. I was skeptical about it for quite a while, and I didn't want to spend $$ on an application for Linux, but it is worth it. It's only $5 USD a month and it makes playing games in Linux a whole lot easier. I am still not completely over to Ubuntu for everything, but I can't be with my job in IT Consulting. Just a though if you'd like to try.

[bsalt]

ok ill say this : windows+office (500-600$CAD) = Open Office+Ubuntu (0$) so thats about a weeks pay right ? plus cout the time to install all of those GRaphicsCard + Motherboard +soundcard + network card plus printer + scanner + ipod drivers (yesss! ALL THOSE DRIVERS!!!) plus AV firewall + anti spyware + config just about every thing + games & that dreadful 1hour install of office! i installed Ubuntu on my bros PC (p3 1Ghz 300Mo Ram) YES Pentium 3! one hour including wireless drivers & printer drivers oh gess what he had a prob with sound (enlinghtment sound +Alsa but thats my fault ;) ) so hum what costed more ? hum ... i wonder ... (my bro swears by it! [from win98] )
ill fix every thing this weekend... in about another hour (yess i'll put him on xubuntu instead)



ok wireless dosent work out the box so what your a user & you install a system then you complain about OS not being friendly ... well gess what windows still requires more efforts than ubuntu ....

i mean by that put the CD in click next or read instruction ... in french or english on the same CD !! aint that nice ?

linux does recongnise your hardware as good as windows actualy it does the same thing exept you dont have search button for your driver ...
type a Lspci (lowercase) in a terminal & you will see what i mean
(ls + pci = list pci= lspci ) (actualy with "sudo " in front & this IS for your the SAFETY of your data)

try it at your scool or a internet cafe just boot into the live CD & try it on the net Im pretty shure you cant do that with your windows CD ....
(btw notice when you first boot your windows its in 256 color thats the missing video card driver...after installing)

Can I get an amen??


Seriously people. Ubuntu is not one of the easiest distros, it IS the easiest Linux distribution out there. It is so easy to install, painless to set up, and effortless to run. Windows drives me nuts. And I work at fixing those computers and keeping them running. It's like trying to get a dead horse to run. Linux won't stop running. And that is no joke. Yes, I still keep Windows XP, but that is only for the real one application I love - MS Money (and a couple games that run better in Windows, for the moment).

I was setting up a friend's laptop - she keeps getting viruses and crap on it - so I installed Ubuntu. There goes the viruses and the crap. I installed Gutsy RC, but it did not see the Dell wireless PCMCIA card that is plugged in. Or, at least, it didn't work with it at first. I plugged into the ethernet and ran Update-Manager. Now it works. For an OS that is free, it sure is working hard to stay amazingly awesome. For an OS that is expensive (Windows 98 and up, except for the server products) I sure was disappointed and felt like I was being robbed.

But hey, that's just me.

[ryseshan]

Hai

I have recently joined as Ubuntu user. Find everything alright. Still having some trouble with unique ttf font file installations. If font installation is like windows easily will be good in the next version. Hope to expect new version brings that change.

[NoSmokingBandit]

Can I get an amen??


Seriously people. Ubuntu is not one of the easiest distros, it IS the easiest Linux distribution out there. It is so easy to install, painless to set up, and effortless to run. Windows drives me nuts. And I work at fixing those computers and keeping them running. It's like trying to get a dead horse to run. Linux won't stop running. And that is no joke. Yes, I still keep Windows XP, but that is only for the real one application I love - MS Money (and a couple games that run better in Windows, for the moment).

I found PcLinuxOs easier to install and run, but once it was up and going it was harder to do anything in it. Might just be because it is all KDE and i love gnome, but it just wasnt as easy to install stuff. If the ubuntu install process was as nice as PcLinuxOs and if it had the nice system control panel deal pclos has it would be alot better. I guess alot of this will be addressed in 7.10, but it should have been done a long time ago.

[perixx]

Hi bsalt,

I've read about Cedega before and it sounded rather promising! Do you know about if DX9 and DX10 are yet fully integrated?

I'd given it a spontaneous shot, if it wasn't bound to this awful subscription system, though. I personally wouldn't have anything against buying it for some 30 bucks or so, including a year update support, BUT unlimited usability...

perixx

[|2A|N]

I love Linux but I stopped using it because I couldn't for the love of god get my native widescreen resolution to run properly after countless days and nights and reading and modding the config finally gave it up!
But I am happy to say with the Ubuntu Gutsy 7.10RC release that this has been fixed and my resolution is perfect now and my LCD and graphics card are now recognized in the Nvidia Control Panel :) I'm so happy about this and now I'm back to using Ubuntu again permanently :)

[rugbeeprop]

Personally, I think in order for an average user to use a Linux system, he/she needs to be adventurous. Not get frustrated easily by set backs, but see them as challenges.

I have just been using Ubuntu in for only a few months. In the past my hesitation on using any Linux system was the unknown. Not knowing if I install it, can I remove it? will it screw up my Microsoft Windows?

When I first found out about Ubuntu, I wasn't quite sure either. But after I ran it from the CD, I just had to install it onto my pc.

My impression at this point is that I like it and wish that the system will get a lot more user friendly as we work together to improve it. I even consider getting a laptop to have Ubuntu running on it exclusively.

I do see that there are some aspects that Ubuntu is lacking, however, if everyone work together, I am sure that a few years down the road, Ubuntu will be used by a larger number of users.

One immediate thing that maybe helpful to new users is a better help and reference system. This forum is a great place to find information, however, I find that a lot of times, if I will need to dig through different posting before I find the topic I am actually looking for.

Cheers to everyone who help make this system work!!! =D>

[freeflyer57]

Ubuntu now has came along way compared to ubuntu from early 2006. It takes very little linux knowledge now to run it. You can install packages with apt-get in gui without even entering a package manager. You can install all of the codecs needed to play any media that you want with one click. When I started using Ubuntu 5.01 way back in '06 all of that had to be done one at a time. It also seems that Wine is becoming more successful now as well. Plus in one year Ubuntu has came so far. Wait a little longer and it will be amazing. :cool:

[balthamaisteri]

Sorry guys and gals, I'm gave it a shot and I;m going to have to say good bye to Linux and Ubuntu. Without wireless support and an easy way to install programs, this is something that I'm not going to get. I'm a windows user and that's all there is to it.

I tried, but it just isn't going to work.

"easy way to install programs", thats funny :)

[Overbyte]

easy way to install programs...
"easy way to install programs", thats funny

Umm...then what's Applications > Add/Remove doing in the menu bar?
Or maybe he's talking about the dependency things,,, :)

[regomodo]

I am returning after my brief excursion with Archlinux. In general arch is good and i like the principle of how to set up things. However, i had a major dvd playback issue and it is impossible to get the arduino ide to work correctly. Also applications aren't always added to the menus, the forums are very quiet and thunar would always open behind everything.

If there is someway of mixing ubuntu and arch that would be unbelievable. Sort of building ubuntu like arch but using ubuntu's large amount of supported packages and good forum.

[julian67]

"easy way to install programs", thats funny :)

I think he means warez :lolflag:

[xcafeus]

Personally, I think in order for an average user to use a Linux system, he/she needs to be adventurous. Not get frustrated easily by set backs, but see them as challenges.

I have just been using Ubuntu in for only a few months. In the past my hesitation on using any Linux system was the unknown. Not knowing if I install it, can I remove it? will it screw up my Microsoft Windows?

When I first found out about Ubuntu, I wasn't quite sure either. But after I ran it from the CD, I just had to install it onto my pc.

My impression at this point is that I like it and wish that the system will get a lot more user friendly as we work together to improve it. I even consider getting a laptop to have Ubuntu running on it exclusively.

I do see that there are some aspects that Ubuntu is lacking, however, if everyone work together, I am sure that a few years down the road, Ubuntu will be used by a larger number of users.

One immediate thing that maybe helpful to new users is a better help and reference system. This forum is a great place to find information, however, I find that a lot of times, if I will need to dig through different posting before I find the topic I am actually looking for.

Cheers to everyone who help make this system work!!! =D>

thats the way I see it! its an adventure BUT I DO GET frustrated. That doesnt mean I give up... and I get frustrated after a FEW TRIES and not straight away. I think that is human behaviour.

The reason I get frustrated is this: Linux is becoming popular and WANTS to become popular. And we users WANT it to become popular to get Windows - especially VISTA - off our backs. BUT to become popular you must take into account that not everybody is an EXPERT and you must take this into account. Even experts started somewhere. Also some people DO NOT have the time to try for 5 hours to install Ubuntu or any other distro. What do we tell them - get out of here?? Go back to Windowz? We must help them by making things easier.

Why should it be easy - but crap and not free, and difficult but good and free? We - noobs - want Linux to be easy and good and free at least at the begining! Then everybody learns by messing around.

So I get frustrated when I install 7.04 and the upgrade to 7.10 messes everything up because I use softraid (fakeraid if you prefer). Why is it so difficult for developers to test that the upgrade works on the VERY POPULAR NOWDAYS Raid0 arrays?

Also keep in mind the more popular Linux becomes the more drivers there are available from manufacturers.

over and out.

[bromix]

thats the way I see it! its an adventure BUT I DO GET frustrated. That doesnt mean I give up... and I get frustrated after a FEW TRIES and not straight away. I think that is human behaviour.

The reason I get frustrated is this: Linux is becoming popular and WANTS to become popular. And we users WANT it to become popular to get Windows - especially VISTA - off our backs. BUT to become popular you must take into account that not everybody is an EXPERT and you must take this into account. Even experts started somewhere. Also some people DO NOT have the time to try for 5 hours to install Ubuntu or any other distro. What do we tell them - get out of here?? Go back to Windowz? We must help them by making things easier.

Why should it be easy - but crap and not free, and difficult but good and free? We - noobs - want Linux to be easy and good and free at least at the begining! Then everybody learns by messing around.

So I get frustrated when I install 7.04 and the upgrade to 7.10 messes everything up because I use softraid (fakeraid if you prefer). Why is it so difficult for developers to test that the upgrade works on the VERY POPULAR NOWDAYS Raid0 arrays?

Also keep in mind the more popular Linux becomes the more drivers there are available from manufacturers.

over and out.

That, my friends, is the attitude I like to see here. I think it's important for each individual user to examine their motivations for up and switching to an alternative operating system. If you like Windows and it works fine for you...for goodness sake, don't just switch to Linux because you won't have to pay money for it. That's the lamest excuse. In the beginning, I started toying with it as a hobby. It satisfied my geek urge. I've seen it grow tremendously. I've hosed probably hundreds of installs. There was some frustration, yes. But, mostly the desire to figure out why it wasn't working, and how to make it work. BUT...that is me.

I have helped a few people to experience linux. But, all of those people have to listen to me tell them about what this is really all about. It's not to develop an operating system that nobody has to pay for. It's about freeDOM. Not being forced to use something one company produces, regardless of the quality of that software. I also tell them what I stated before, if you want Windows, use it. And, that if they would like to try using Linux, I would be more than happy to check their hardware against the compatibility list of several distributions, and help them find one that would work best with their existing hardware. I tell them that there is a learning curve that they should expect, but not to worry, that I will gladly take the time to help them anytime they need it. I won't do it for them, but will help them to understand what they are doing, why they are doing it, and allow them that opportunity to become a successful linux user.

There are some of these people who have decided that linux just wasn't their thing. That's the beauty of freedom and choice. The very backbone of the open source movement. Some of these people dual-boot, using windows and linux both as their need, or whim dictates. And, lastly, some of these people solely use linux. Some even learning things that I don't know, and have been able to help me in troubleshooting or such.

So, I guess my lengthy rambling is this...don't as a new user...expect to throw a cd in the drive, and whiz bang have a windows operating system with another name. Please don't seek to switch to linux because you don't have to pay for it. And PLEASE, as a linux user....be informative, be understanding, and be thorough. Most of all.....be patient. It's so easy for people in these threads to lose patience. I know it's difficult sometimes to maintain, but if it gets to that point....just don't reply. Thumper had it right, "If ya can't say soemthin nice..." I would hate for a new user with sincere motives to see a thread like this and be discouraged from posting, and lose out on the opportunity to be a part of this wonderful movement.

Lastly....please read this blog post by the former President/CEO of Linspire....
http://kevincarmony.blogspot.com/2007/09/walt-mossberg-reviews-ubuntu-desktop.html

and the link at the end to his related post in the Linspire Letter
http://www.linspire.com/linspire_letter_archives.php?id=11

[bsalt]

Yeah, and we don't won't Ubuntu, or Linux in general to become popular just to get at Windows, but... the more users there are with Linux, the more apps will become more and more cross-platform. Which is something software developers really should start sweating about if they don't do it yet.

[GepettoBR]

How did a thread that opened with a statement that sounded like a suicide note get this big? o.O

[BOZG]

How did a thread that opened with a statement that sounded like a suicide note get this big? o.O

It's like a car crash. You know you should ignore it but you just have to see what's going on.

[Druke]

:popcorn:

[bsalt]

:lolflag:


Yeah I just feel like I must defend Ubuntu. People who bash it bash it for the wrong reasons. In all actuality, Ubuntu can do just about anything you want it to, it just takes time and customization, but once you've got it, it's solid.

[david_2001]

I am returning after my brief excursion with Archlinux. In general arch is good and i like the principle of how to set up things. However, i had a major dvd playback issue and it is impossible to get the arduino ide to work correctly. Also applications aren't always added to the menus, the forums are very quiet and thunar would always open behind everything.

If there is someway of mixing ubuntu and arch that would be unbelievable. Sort of building ubuntu like arch but using ubuntu's large amount of supported packages and good forum.

Interesting, Arch Linux is where I've decided to go visit next, tempted by a distro that has the speed and elegant simplicity of Slackware but with decent package management out of the box. All I need to do before I go is burn a Gutsy CD as a rescue disk...just in case of unforeseen eventualities!

[jbaerbock]

I just laugh at people who think windows is perfect just because all their life they have gotten a precustomised computer in which all drivers etc... seem to just work because the manufacturer has gotten it working before they ship it to said customer. Where as they expect linux to install automaticaly and have nothing that needs tweaking.

I like to challenge people and tell them to do a fresh install of both OS's and see which one workd OOTB the best without any adons or configuration. Granted it depends on the computer but in more tests you will find Ubuntu works OOTB on more than Windows does.

[sstusick]

I just laugh at people who think windows is perfect just because all their life they have gotten a precustomised computer in which all drivers etc... seem to just work because the manufacturer has gotten it working before they ship it to said customer. Where as they expect linux to install automaticaly and have nothing that needs tweaking.

I like to challenge people and tell them to do a fresh install of both OS's and see which one workd OOTB the best without any adons or configuration. Granted it depends on the computer but in more tests you will find Ubuntu works OOTB on more than Windows does.
Same here.

[bsalt]

I'm actually wanting to find somebody that would either donate or sponsor me to build two machines exactly the same in a controlled environment (same temperature, lighting, clean room, etc) and install XP, or better yet, Vista on one box, and Ubuntu on the other, setup all the devices and drivers, and then turn them both on and let them run until one of them crashes. The first one would be Vista. But I want to prove it, just for kicks.

[sstusick]

I'd like the same to be done... but just install the operating systems and see which OS runs better out of the box.

[jbaerbock]

I'd like the same to be done... but just install the operating systems and see which OS runs better out of the box.


Problem is if you do that some people will say you picked one Ubuntu is known to run on and Vista isn't or some b/s like that lol.

[Overbyte]

I'm actually wanting to find somebody that would either donate or sponsor me to build two machines exactly the same in a controlled environment (same temperature, lighting, clean room, etc) and install XP, or better yet, Vista on one box, and Ubuntu on the other, setup all the devices and drivers, and then turn them both on and let them run until one of them crashes. The first one would be Vista. But I want to prove it, just for kicks.

Don't forget to plop in a wireless card and do a multi-monitor setup.
Now that would be sweet...and also run stuff like Super Pi, OCCT, HDTach, and those cpu toaster benchmark apps. Yeah! :lolflag:

Or setup both as a server, make them an FTP server, and we all download some 1GB file off of it. This Debian-based OS will prove itself ;)

If my Ubuntu PC would run WinSAT I imagine I would get a 10+ lol, in Vista I get a crappy 4.3...darn bloated OS complaining about my RAM being slow...700+ MHz RAM slow? Give me a break!

[benweston]

The sentiment here seems to be quite anti-Windows. When will people start to realise that Windows IS just as good as Ubuntu. I use Vista and Ubuntu together on different systems. Fluke though it may be, the Vista box has been running for just over 5 weeks without being shut down once, the Ubuntu box ran until it installed some updates and borked itself.

It's not ALWAYS rosy on the Ubuntu side and the majority of stability issues on Windows were left behind with the 9x kernel of Windows ME days. The NT kernel is robust and stable.

To the average end user, Vista is a better option. They can edit home videos easily, they can burn it to DVD, anything they buy will run, all hardware is compatible, they can game at good framerates, it's pleasant to use, etc, etc.

Ubuntu has many strengths too. But that does not mean Windows/Vista isn't a good operating system.

EDIT - And just because your RAM runs at 700 MHz, does not mean it's fast. It doesn't even mean your motherboard is running it at that speed, with good latencies, yada yada yada. I have 667MHz DDR2 that gets a 5.9 in Vista.

[rugbeeprop]

The bottom lines are:

There are always two sides to a coin
No one is perfectI use both Microsoft Windows and Ubuntu. Both have its own issues to deal with.

However, I believe that a lot of negative feeling towards Microsoft is due to the economic and market monopoly that Microsoft has.

I am a believer in OpenSource and that internet was started as a mean to SHARE. I also believe that some people need to be rewarded for his/her work.

What happened with Microsoft is the ideal of Capitalism. It is where the one with the strongest economy power wins, regardless the product.

There need to be a middle ground where the company make some money AND at the same time, the users pay a REASONABLE price for the product.

The price of a pc is already high enough, that an average household can barely afford. Then add software, that you need in order to produce a decent work, that cost almost as expensive as the pc itself. How does this math work out? I am not surprise that there are a lot of pirates out there. Argghhh...

[SomethinSnappy]

I think it already is. Too bad you have to install it yourself... maybe that preinstallation thing will be "right up there" with Windows soon.

Quick, someone call Dell! :)

[julian67]

The sentiment here seems to be quite anti-Windows. When will people start to realise that Windows IS just as good as Ubuntu.

It isn't, so there's no point expecting people to say it is. It isn't free(dom) software, and that's an automatic disqualification for many people. Other obvious points might be the hardware requirements for Vista, the still inadequate hardware support, the enormous cost, the vulnerability to malware, that many people's favourite applications and tools are not available or are hard to install on Windows in general and Vista in particular.


I use Vista and Ubuntu together on different systems. Fluke though it may be, the Vista box has been running for just over 5 weeks without being shut down once, the Ubuntu box ran until it installed some updates and borked itself.

you'd have to go into details (i.e. OS version, architecture, repos enabled, details of any unsupported modules/applications, use of automatix, etc etc) to a) expect anyone to take this seriously and b) get a reasonable response based on something other than opinions.


It's not ALWAYS rosy on the Ubuntu side and the majority of stability issues on Windows were left behind with the 9x kernel of Windows ME days. The NT kernel is robust and stable.

It's true people have trouble with Ubuntu like any other OS, I'm not sure anyone is claiming perfection. As for NT kernels being robust and stable...well stable yes, if you are very careful about which driver level stuff is allowed on the system, and if you can isolate your system from the vast and amazing array of malware out there you might run a stable system. i have in the past but it was a lot of work and out of the box 98, 2000 and XP were doomed on their default settings. Robust? No way can it be described as robust, there are just too many ways to take it down.


To the average end user, Vista is a better option. They can edit home videos easily, they can burn it to DVD, anything they buy will run, all hardware is compatible, they can game at good framerates, it's pleasant to use, etc, etc.

The average user is not doing this with Vista, he/she is doing these things with the 3rd party applications that run on Vista. All hardware is not compatible. The fact that all your hardware works does not make a universal rule. I have a very nice Core Duo Lenovo laptop made only this year that is the usual "designed for XP" hardware. It can't run Vista. It has the RAM and CPU of course but there aren't the drivers. It also cannot run Windows 2000, same reason. Fortunately I bought it without any OS and installed Xubuntu, which works beautifully on it. Video editing is apparently not so good on Linux (I don't have video cam so not really knowledgeable) but do you really believe people don't burn DVD or play 3D games at high frame rates? Very long way from the facts at this point.


Ubuntu has many strengths too. But that does not mean Windows/Vista isn't a good operating system.

You're right. Vista is actually a bad OS for all kinds of reasons that have nothing to do with the strengths (or otherwise) of Ubuntu or any other distro. Its awfulness stands alone :-)


EDIT - And just because your RAM runs at 700 MHz, does not mean it's fast. It doesn't even mean your motherboard is running it at that speed, with good latencies, yada yada yada. I have 667MHz DDR2 that gets a 5.9 in Vista.

I couldn't figure out what that last paragraph meant.

[benweston]

I'm sorry, I have to disagree with you. Windows is only bloated with malware and viruses if you're stupid enough to download any old EXE off the Internet. Assuming you're computer-literate enough to use Ubuntu, you're not the sort of person to be downloading crap software. I'm aware it's more prevalent on Windows but I'm sure most will agree that with a sensible attitude to the Internet, you won't ever encounter any of this. I've yet to know someone who has.

As for saying that faster framerates and burning video DVDs is as easy on Ubuntu as on Windows (which I think you're trying to say - either that or you misunderstoof), that's evidently wrong. Graphics drivers are nowhere near as mature as their Windows counterparts and although this isn't an Ubuntu problem, it is the result of X being that much further behind the rather good Windows graphics engine with it's need to restart everytime a graphics setting is changed, etc. That was last seen on Windows 95. Ever tried multiple TV outs on Linux? Or installing ATI drivers? It's just harder.

Your laptop is an isolated case. Windows may not support so much hardware OOTB, but the drivers for nearly everything is out there. And in 2007 you'd REALLY struggle to find any hardware that wasn't Windows 2000/XP compliant. Ubuntu's support is good but if it isn't supported OOTB, you'll have a tough time finding drivers for that hardware that doesn't work (of which I could name a lot.)

I stand by my points and would like to reiterate that I use Ubuntu on a daily basis and am founding a business based on it so I'm hardly biased. I just feel that criticism towards Windows is unjust.

[julian67]

I'm sorry, I have to disagree with you. Windows is only bloated with malware and viruses if you're stupid enough to download any old EXE off the Internet.

Suggest you do some simple googling on cross site scripting and iframes. The worst thing is that the security model of the AV vendors depends almost entirely on signatures of known malware and simple heuristics. This means most users are absolutely vulnerable to so-called zero day exploits even on a fully patched system. MS has improved a little in that Vista now encourages (or tries to) users to run unprivileged accounts but from what I hear it's pretty normal for people to run as Admin as they are accustomed to do in older versions of Windows. Malware has come a long way from obvious .exe files attached to your kazaa downloads....



Assuming you're computer-literate enough to use Ubuntu, you're not the sort of person to be downloading crap software. I'm aware it's more prevalent on Windows but I'm sure most will agree that with a sensible attitude to the Internet, you won't ever encounter any of this. I've yet to know someone who has.

Actually the malware is good enough that you would never know. If it doesn't have a signature it isn't detected and your up to date AV happily tells you all is well. I have seen this myself. I also read an interview with the head of MS security in which he conceded that once a Windows system is compromised you can probably never be sure that you have cleaned it and that format and reinstall is the only viable recovery option because so much malware is now undetectable and designed to replicate itself with changes....so the old version might become known but the self generated new versions remain ahead of the AV vendors..

As for saying that faster framerates and burning video DVDs is as easy on Ubuntu as on Windows (which I think you're trying to say - either that or you misunderstoof), that's evidently wrong. Graphics drivers are nowhere near as mature as their Windows counterparts and although this isn't an Ubuntu problem, it is the result of X being that much further behind the rather good Windows graphics engine with it's need to restart everytime a graphics setting is changed, etc. That was last seen on Windows 95. Ever tried multiple TV outs on Linux? Or installing ATI drivers? It's just harder.

I didn't say faster frame rates, you did ;-) I haven't seen any real difference between platforms. I'm not sure what is this point about DVD...I can burn anything to DVD, data, iso, DVD video, I've not heard of any problems in Linux with this, it's basic stuff and I've found applications like tovid and Devede as easy as the tools I used on Windows. I do it with no special knowledge using applications from the Ubuntu repos and medibuntu and morgoth.

Again you universalise problems: difficulties with certain graphics driver does not equate to difficulties with all graphics drivers. My desktop's low end nvidia GeForce 6200 card works fine. Previously I had an ATI card, the driver installed easily and automatically with the restricted drivers tool but actually the driver wasn't great when used in conjunction with Beryl so I spent £15 on the nvidia, not out of necessity but because I wanted to. I could have carried on with the ATI but perhaps without beryl). The Intel integrated graphics in my laptops are incredibly good. I can play 3d games and run beryl on 64Mb integrated graphics[/QUOTE]


Your laptop is an isolated case. Windows may not support so much hardware OOTB, but the drivers for nearly everything is out there. And in 2007 you'd REALLY struggle to find any hardware that wasn't Windows 2000/XP compliant. Ubuntu's support is good but if it isn't supported OOTB, you'll have a tough time finding drivers for that hardware that doesn't work (of which I could name a lot.)

I think you'll find a lot of older hardware simply isn't supported in Vista. If you don't have older hardware then of course it will seem like everything is fine and you can again universalise your individual situation to everybody else's.....and it will seem true for you.


I stand by my points and would like to reiterate that I use Ubuntu on a daily basis and am founding a business based on it so I'm hardly biased. I just feel that criticism towards Windows is unjust.

All criticism? Any criticism? Just criticism based on situations beyond your direct personal experience?

I'm sure there might be areas where Vista's code is technically the best. But we'll never know will we? Because it is secret. You and I are not allowed to know what it does, how it does it or why. And there's the reason why millions of people across the globe will never have a good word for it.

[mivo]

I agree with Ben. I had used Windows PCs for fifteen years, and I never had a trojan or a virus on any of my systems. The last virus I had was on an Atari ST in the 80s, and that was because I had "obtained" software in dubious ways. ;) I did collect some shadowy spyware-type of tracking cookies and such simply by browsing the web, but those were simple enough to clean out and with more restrictions it would have been easy to prevent them.

I cannot judge Vista because I never used it, and I probably never will since I completely ditched Windows, but I always felt that XP was a pretty decent desktop OS that had hardly ever caused me any problems. Now, the "issues" with Windows lie, for me, elsewhere.

For one, you just don't get enough performance out of your hardware, because there is so much bloat, and for new versions you almost always have to buy new hardware to stay current (also in terms of usability and ergonomics which are not necessarily tied to more powerful hardware). Sure you can run Win95 on an old P3/700 today, but you do not get security updates or new features. My old P3/700 now happily runs Xubuntu 7.10, is fully up to date security-wise, and even has modern usability features. I only use it to back up stuff to, but the point is I could work on it without my security-level being stuck in the 90s. My other box, a P4/3000, 1 GB RAM and an ATI X700, is my desktop and it just flies, even though it is three years old now. The next machine that will be built this week will also use Ubuntu. Dual-core E2140 with 3 GB and a 8800GT with 640 MB video RAM ... that one would make even Vista happy :D. (This is actually the first time in my computer career that I get a new computer without the urgent feeling that I even need it -- and the reason for this is only Linux/Ubuntu.)

Second, Windows (at least up to XP) lacks version control, a packaging system, etc. and eventually suffocates itself -- it really slows down and gets cluttered after a few months unless you reformat frequently, defrag weekly, etc.

Third, you don't have all that much control over the OS, and clearly, you are the user and the OS is the master. In Linux, you can delve much deeper into the OS and control every tiny part of it if you so wish (it's perfectly optional). You always know what is going on (or more exact: you always can know what is going on) and manipulate it.

Fourth, Windows is "closed source" and terribly commercialized which got really extreme over the years. I don't think there is anything wrong with charging for work, but it got to a point where I started to feel ripped off. I also like the spirit of the open source movement and the philosophical aspects. I'm too old now to be phased by thoughts of "revolution!", but I see many practical advantages of this approach. The community working together leads to better, broader solutions, faster responses to issues, and to more innovation. I also believe in the importance of open standards and am concerned about DRM and external entities having any control over my computer or data.

Fifth, I actually prefer the choice and extreme customizability of the Linux desktop environments. I can choose from various offerings, pick what I prefer, tweak it to suit my needs. Linux and especially Ubuntu's Gnome implementation have really improved my productivity. I'm having fun working, enjoy the tools available to me, and I feel that I actually run the machine, and not the machine me.

So, in short, I did not drop Windows (completely, for both professional and personal use) because I "hated" it or because it was totally unfit, but I switched to Linux/Ubuntu because it suits me better and is, in essence, the better tool for what I do, how I work, and how I want to use my computer. It's not all that different from my previous switches, from Amstard CPC to Atari ST to DOS/Windows. I even used OS/2 for a bit, but my hardware was sadly underpowered for it at the time.

I hope and wish for a more wide-spread Linux success. Not only because I am sure this will give us broader support from manufacturers, but also because I firmly believe that choice drives innovation. Monopolies in any field are like dictatorships, they restrict and limit progress and creativity.

[julian67]

Most people will never know if they have malware on their Windows systems. The malware vendors (yes there are vendors like in any other market) are by definition (no pun intended) always ahead of the security vendors. The only time you can know that there isn't malware on Windows is on a clean install from genuine media where no other media has been attached and there has been no network connection and no installation of 3rd party applications. That might seem extreme but actually it is the only sane basis on which to proceed with running an OS whose security model is based on wishful thinking and secrecy and whose 3rd party software eco system is overwhelmingly one where you the user have to trust the vendor (for the reason that the vendor says they are nice people!) but the vendor never trusts you. Even companies you thought you could trust might install rootkits on your system because they don't trust you. Those nice people at Sony come to mind. By the time Sony's rootkit was detected millions of people who had done nothing wrong had been rooted. It was nothing to do with their behaviour online, their knowledge or ignorance of computers, the websites they visited, the attachments they opened, the security products they used or did or didn't update. It was a respectable company taking advantage of secrecy, obscurity and vulnerability in Windows. And if that's what the respectable corporations do.............

[bonzodog]

It's like a car crash. You know you should ignore it but you just have to see what's going on.

:lolflag:

ROFLMAO!!

[GepettoBR]

The bottom lines are:

There are always two sides to a coin
No one is perfectI use both Microsoft Windows and Ubuntu. Both have its own issues to deal with.

However, I believe that a lot of negative feeling towards Microsoft is due to the economic and market monopoly that Microsoft has.

I am a believer in OpenSource and that internet was started as a mean to SHARE. I also believe that some people need to be rewarded for his/her work.

What happened with Microsoft is the ideal of Capitalism. It is where the one with the strongest economy power wins, regardless the product.

There need to be a middle ground where the company make some money AND at the same time, the users pay a REASONABLE price for the product.

The price of a pc is already high enough, that an average household can barely afford. Then add software, that you need in order to produce a decent work, that cost almost as expensive as the pc itself. How does this math work out? I am not surprise that there are a lot of pirates out there. Argghhh...
+1

The greatest advantage GNU/Linux holds over Windows is security (and since Vista, DRM) but you can't deny that Windows has an immense advantage on compatibility. Many Linux zealots rant about how "if only the companies would make their stuff Linux-friendly", but they don't because they don't think it's feasible. What we need to do is find a temporary solution to that problem while focusing on other aspects of the user experience so that Linux systems are preferrable to many people over Windows in spite of the lack of support. When the user base is large enough, drivers and ports will become feasible, and they'll come on their own*. Then, a system that was already better without the drivers will reign indisputed (no less because of the money).

Something else we don't have and should? Advertisement. People only have acces to the Microsoft view (http://www.microsoft.com/windowsserver/compare/compare_linux.mspx) on Linux, and Windows users' view in general. I have no idea who would pay for the advertisement, though... certainly it wouldn't be good if a specific commercial distro had the public eye while comminity-oriented distros didn't, so we need a united organization that would spread the word on "Linux", not "this Linux" or "that Linux". Hard and not very feasible, but I believe it's an important step.

In my particular case, I use Windows because of the third-party video editing software. Linux has absolutely nothing available that can rival the power of Adobe Premiere + Adobe AfterEffects + AviSynth (at least until the latter is ported, which shouldn't take long since it's Open and coming to OSX). And I use Linux because Windows is a memory hog and I need my RAM and CPU cycles to encode at a reasonable speed. For everyday tasks, any one of them is fine: although I'll prefer booting Linux because of the big bad viruses, if Windows came first in Grub I'd eventually let it load a few times for that too.

*I know we all want our favourite applications to be Free and Open Source, but that doesn't exclude the possibility of also using commercial software on Linux. Besides, having all the programs you're already used to on Windows is a bonus point for reluctant migrators.

[potentia]

For many it must be irrelevant that Linux is secure, when Linux can run so few professional programs. Even Mac OS X must introduce Boot Camp to keep costumers.

I like Linux for hobby purposes, but I simply have to return to Windows as soon as I have to work.

I just installed Gutsy from scratch and drivers issues are still... an issue. Let people abandon Linux in silence, if you are not an computer enthusiast, a minority by any definition, then Linux still isn't for Joe Average.


It has some potential as a desktop OS, but is still a project for the future. Even Mark Shuttleworth admits it. Perhaps Ubuntu is one of the easiest distros around but without proper hardware support, and professional software, it only has potential for schools that doesn't need advanced programs, just the basics for teaching.

[GepettoBR]

For many it must be irrelevant that Linux is secure, when Linux can run so few professional programs. Even Mac OS X must introduce Boot Camp to keep costumers.

I like Linux for hobby purposes, but I simply have to return to Windows as soon as I have to work.

I just installed Gutsy from scratch and drivers issues are still... an issue. Let people abandon Linux in silence, if you are not an computer enthusiast, a minority by any definition, then Linux still isn't for Joe Average.


It is some potential, but is still a project for the future. Even Mark Shuttleworth admits it.

That depends on the work, no? The standard Office-WebBrowser-eMail combo most people work with is indifferent in OSX, Windows and any Linux distro. MS Office runs perfect on the first two and OpenOffice runs perfect on all three, all three have great web browsers and e-mail clients, and none of them tend to bogle up if you only use them for that and playing Solitaire.

[mivo]

Exactly. I use Ubuntu/Linux for my work, too. All I need is office applications (but not MS Office or even compatibility with it), an IMAP client (Evolution beats every other client's IMAP support), IM software, SSH client, a web browser, and the ability to run a small'ish Windows application (which happens to run happily in Wine). Skype is an extra bonus, and that also works in Linux (natively). So it cannot be generalized that everyone really needs Windows for their job. Most people probably would not need it and OpenOffice would suffice.

[BoardDWorld]

Come on people, 117 pages just because one person shared his frustration. Obviously to make a statement like that he really cared, he was most likely hoping to experience Linux in all its glory and he wasn't able to even start... So let him make his statement and hopefully he will be back & things will go better next time he trials Linux. Quite likely he will with a new system or the next Ubuntu release.

I had the same frustration with SUSE 10. The nVidia driver had my Hertz running low on my Sony LCD and boy was it a head ache. No matter how much I tried, contacting nVidia etc, SUSE ICQ (They're hopeless at helping noobs), there was no way to resolve it. So I went back to XP.

Here I am a year and a half later and I have been on Ubuntu for the last 4 months. It was purchasing a HP Laptop pre-installed with Vista that drove me back.:guitar:

[khurrum1990]

Windows sucks! I have been running different Linux distributions on different pc's and they all are better then Windows Vista. I have Vista on my parents computer as well. I hate Windows not because its expensive and stuff, I can afford that, but because its unstable and unsecure. You need to restart it after a couple of hours to keep it running at good speed, sometimes programs just shut down without reason. You need to scan files for viruses when opening them. Linux is so much better. When I want to play games which is the only thing Linux or OS X can't do, I have a console for that. Consoles usually have great games so there is no need for pc gaming when everything can be done on a ps3. Seriously nothing is better than Unix.

[GepettoBR]

Seriously nothing is better than Unix.You know that GNU/Linux OSes are not UNIX, right? GNU stands for GNU's Not UNIX.

[Overbyte]

Quite likely he will with a new system or the next Ubuntu release.

Maybe Hardy Heron will make him come back :)

[quote=In my particular case, I use Windows because of the third-party video editing software.[/quote]

I use Audition and Premiere Pro (Adobe fanboy with their monster scratch files) :guitar:

Except for rendering/editing and games (I'm too lazy to set up Wine), I use Linux for everything else :)

[bluedragon436]

I don't really see why u would waste the time and the bandwith to post this, but hey what ever allows you to vent. I truthfully have no problem with setting up my wireless or anything else for that matter.... a few small kinks here and there, but with a full couple of seconds of research I have found a fix to every thing I have had a question or a concern about. But I guess that is the difference between someone who wants to trully give linux a real chance!!!

[rugbeeprop]

Exactly... that is how I am enjoying the best of both worlds.

I use XP to play games, and for anything else (internet, chats, work) is use Ubuntu.

It is the matter trying to be optimistic and looking at things at how we can maximise what is available to our satisfaction.

There are many types of knives, and you can literally use just one knife to do everything, HOWEVER, if you use the right knife, you will do a better job in cutting/chopping/slicing/etc.

[ddrichardson]

Exactly... that is how I am enjoying the best of both worlds.

I use XP to play games, and for anything else (internet, chats, work) is use Ubuntu.

It is the matter trying to be optimistic and looking at things at how we can maximise what is available to our satisfaction.

There are many types of knives, and you can literally use just one knife to do everything, HOWEVER, if you use the right knife, you will do a better job in cutting/chopping/slicing/etc.
While I completely agree that it often comes down to the choice of tool for the job, many people seem to ignore that there are people out ther choosing Ubuntu for more ideological reasons.

I personally prefer Ubuntu and work to improve it because I believe in the philosophy behind it and choose not to participate in funding Microsoft because I deplore some of their business practices.

That's my choice and am frankly not bothered as to what others do, because I'm happy with my choice.

[rugbeeprop]

While I completely agree that it often comes down to the choice of tool for the job, many people seem to ignore that there are people out ther choosing Ubuntu for more ideological reasons.

I personally prefer Ubuntu and work to improve it because I believe in the philosophy behind it and choose not to participate in funding Microsoft because I deplore some of their business practices.

That's my choice and am frankly not bothered as to what others do, because I'm happy with my choice.

I am all for the philosophy and principle of Ubuntu. This why I use Ubuntu.

Hahaha... I don't fund Microsoft at all if you know what I mean... arrgggghhh 8-)

I hope that Ubuntu can be developed to such a way that a less than average users can confidently use it.

[henchman]

Hello Ubuntu! :-)

Just installed the Gibbon without probs and it rox :D :KS

[gizmoarena]

can someone close this thread?
after releasing 7.10, I guess there shouldnt be any "bye ubuntu" thread.

[julian67]

can someone close this thread?
after releasing 7.10, I guess there shouldnt be any "bye ubuntu" thread.

You're forgetting the people who think it got worse ;-)

[NoSmokingBandit]

like me...

[sstusick]

And the trolls come out of the woodwork.

[NoSmokingBandit]

oh, im sorry, am i supposed to have my head up canonical's *** and just deal with an o/s that is less than its predecessor? 7.10 is ok, but its not as good as 7.04

[NeoLithium]

oh, im sorry, am i supposed to have my head up canonical's *** and just deal with an o/s that is less than its predecessor? 7.10 is ok, but its not as good as 7.04

As I recall; this is exactly what was said about edgy when it was released, dapper was better. Then when fiesty came out; the same was said about edgy being better once again.

[GSF1200S]

Windows is not as stable or configurable- you all know it end of story.

Ubuntu (linux in general) has setup issues that extend beyond most peoples willingness, and thus is not accepted by the general public.

For some people, Windows is a more appropriate choice. They dont have time to setup Linux.

On the flip side, im running java and flash in a 64bit browser, and my system runs perfect everyday- predictable, fast, stable.

Problems in Linux always happen while trying to setup the OS or a program; problems in Windows happen when the OS wont load, or something breaks.

Windows does not demand, however, as much from its users.

Long live free choice!!

[GSF1200S]

In response to the general flow of this thread, I think 7.10 was a step in the right direction.

It takes a massive wide scale release like that to REALLY expose the problems, and then they get fixed, just like OSS is known for.

I think 7.04 at this time is more stable than 7.10, but 7.10 has a lot more features- besides, Hardy is a LTS. All the stumbling done with Gutsy will be resolved with Hardy.

Hardy will be my last install for a while...

[GepettoBR]

As I recall; this is exactly what was said about edgy when it was released, dapper was better. Then when fiesty came out; the same was said about edgy being better once again.

In other words, we've been devolving since Warty Warthog?

People will always be pissed with an OS on its release, because no matter how much testing has been done, there'll still be bugs left to fix via updates. Give it some time, then make your decision. IMO we should only compare Feisty to Edgy now that Gutsy is released, and only compare Gutsy to Feisty when we have Hardy in our hands.

[julian67]

As I recall; this is exactly what was said about edgy when it was released, dapper was better. Then when fiesty came out; the same was said about edgy being better once again.

I actually think Ubuntu 7.10 is a nice improvement and having installed it out of curiosity I would prefer it over 7.04. But I'm a Xubuntu user and 7.10 is a big disappointment. It certainly isn't "bye Xubuntu!" time but I'm sticking with 7.04 (which is an incredibly good Xfce distro) on all my PCs and waiting to see if the next LTS version gets back on track or if Xubuntu continues on the road to becoming just a theme over a Gnome desktop. If Xubuntu does continue adding more and more of Gnome then I doubt I'll be the only one who has to think about moving to Zenwalk or Vector or Arch or similar when the support expires for 7.04

I hope it's clear that there are genuine reasons why different people will think a new version is not always better than the one it replaces.

[stefgls]

Actually 7.10 is the final reason to leave ubuntu for the better.

To relaese something like Gutsy in this state, breaking thousands of boxes in the upgrade and frustrating potential new Linux converts with a unready and unstable release does severe harm to the community.

Irresponsible behaviour like that puts serious harm on Linux adoption, and as much as i enjoyed the releases up to breezy, the decline of ubuntu since dapper is a shame.

The more the marketing trumpets are blaring, the more disappointment it put on the expectations of users.
This is not 'ubuntu' in the original meaning of the word but utterly misleading propaganda

[Artificial Intelligence]

Maybe for you. But for thousands of others, it's a blessing. If you don't like it help in a constructive way or finding a distro that suits your needs - I suggest Debian http://www.debian.org/ stable release - It hardly ever breaks and the packages.

[ddrichardson]

Ubuntu makes no bones about it - there is a 6 month release cycle, along with an LTS version. If that is too high a release schedule then why not use Debian which releases much less often?

If stability is an issue, then why would anyone immediately upgrade to the latest version without testing the waters?

7.10 offers support for many items not available with 7.04 - it even installs on some very problematic laptops I'm using that wouldn't run 7.04 at all. If this release cycle was, say a year, then that would be another six months worth of potential users that could have been put off all together.

Personally I find it objectionable when people try to imply that bugged versions are being foisted upon an unsuspecting community. It's open source and free - if I'd paid for Windows Vista to find out it was in what amounts to an alpha version then I'd be annoyed - oh wait that's what did happen...

[julian67]

I think people are wrong to say Ubuntu is knowingly shipped with critical bugs and deficiencies. Upgrading an OS is always going to be more of a problem than a clean install with fresh settings. There are very few (if any) OS that accomplish this really well. People who believe this is something Windows does well perhaps suffer from massive blind spots that prevented them seeing the widespread difficulties associated with upgrading from '98/ME to XP and then from XP SP1 to SP2 which was in effect a new OS based on XP. I've had far too much time on my hands in the last year so several months ago, just out of interest, did a clean install of Dapper and went through the upgrade process to Edgy and then again to Feisty . Also tried Dapper to Feisty. Dapper>Edgy>Feisty works OK on a very plain system that's built only from Ubuntu repos but on a real desktop with some 3rd party repos and various things compiled from source and some custom config files it can all get a bit too exciting. Before you upgrade a real running system you just have to know you have a back up. I love Clonezilla! From Feisty to Gutsy on real Xubuntu desktop I had quite a lot of strange behaviour such as gksudo freezing the system and massive cpu and/or memory use by some apps, my mail client giving seg faults and a few other odd ones. Some of this was repeated with a clean / install while keeping /home unchanged. A fully clean install worked as intended but as it turned out I did strongly prefer Xubuntu 7.04 so I used my back ups and I'm back where I started several days ago. I don't think this makes 7.10 a bad release overall, in my experience it's what you should expect from most distros and the only sensible way to proceed is to hope for the best and prepare for the worst. Back up! It's worth remembering that there are distros out there who simply do not support upgrading via the package manager and will only support/endorse upgrades done from CD/DVD or a network install in which / is formatted and a new system installed. There are also distros who claim to have rolling release so that you never need to download another iso again. That sounds great but again the reality can be a lot less happy. Did I mention clonezilla?

[GepettoBR]

Ubuntu makes no bones about it - there is a 6 month release cycle, along with an LTS version. If that is too high a release schedule then why not use Debian which releases much less often?



Better yet, only upgrade when the next LTS is released.

[mivo]

Well, I think 7.10 is an improvement, and goes in the right direction, but I also believe that it is a little worrisome to see how many people have problems and that the standard advice is to completely reinstall the system from scratch.

That may be viable for those of us who like to fiddle with their boxes, but if a normal desktop user set up their system over the course of a few months and then the upgrade breaks the system, having to reinstall the OS is very problematic and probably reason enough for people to look for alternatives. Sure, you can tell them not to let the door hit their butt on the way out, but keep in mind here that Ubuntu is meant to be a distro for the masses.

This is not an exception with Ubuntu, but it seems to be the recommended approach. This would be fine for an expert distro, but not for a distro like Ubuntu that wants to appeal to "just users". "Just users" don't want to have to set up their system from scratch every six months only to get the latest featutes and, more importantly, new versions of the software they use.

7.10 does feel rushed to me, and I believe the QA for upgrading existing systems was insufficient. I love Ubuntu and appreciate all the effort, so my criticism is not meant to be negative. I just wonder if the strict release schedule is not harming proper quality assurance. There were also open bugs when 7.10 was released, presumably because they ran out of time. I feel it would have been better to wait a few more weeks.

[aysiu]

"Just users" don't want to have to set up their system from scratch every six months only to get the latest featutes and, more importantly, new versions of the software they use. In my experience with co-workers, friends, acquaintances, and relatives, "just users" don't really care about getting the latest features and new versions of the software they use. They often have no idea that newer versions have come out. They don't install security updates. They just want to use their programs, not constantly upgrade them.

For these people, I'd recommend upgrading from Long-Term Support release to Long-Term Support release.

[austin1030]

I love Ubuntu more than any Linux distributions. BUT Gutsy is not the right one for me at this time.

I tried so many times to get Gutsy to work as Feisty. However, I was in trouble to getting my dual monitors to work together (I like Nvidia's seperate X setting) already first place. Next, my compiz no longer work like Feisty. And, this is some thing surprised, firefox gives JavaScript errors in many pages. I can't believe my 100% trusted browser through problems.

Any how, I'm back to Feisty and will wait until Gutsy solves some problems.

Austin

[ozmoid]

Some of the responses here (sorry, I did not read all 100+ pages, just skimmed) seem to be saying "using your computer should be hard".

I come from a MacOS background, not windows. Apple has a big advantage in that they control your whole experience with a new machine - hardware specifically. Ubuntu really can't cover every possible hardware configuration right out of the box... but Apple can, and from my perspective it makes Ubuntu very difficult to use.

Synaptic? I get nothing but errors when using synaptic :confused: , and nearly nothing works on my system. I haven't thrown in the towel just yet, but IMO (and my previous experience) computing shouldn't be this hard. I have yet to have a productive day in Ubuntu - and that's not for lack of trying! :(

I think I'm on my 5th or 6th (lost count) "wipe and re-install" fix for something that was screwed up while trying to fix something else that was broken... The first time, I lost a lot of new data. Now? I just don't use Ubuntu for anything important.

Even simple things like adding a USB trackball (which should be absolutely transparent to the end user) are an exercise in frustration, terminal commands, and a system that eventually refused to boot... that particular exercise took 2 re-installs before gave I up and went back to using the trackpad.

Not trying to hammer on anyone (or Ubuntu, for that matter), just another .02 from a newbie who is frustrated (at least as much as the OP) but not giving up just yet... because Windows frustrates me more than Ubuntu! ](*,)

Computing should be transparent and intuitive, not a stumbling block to productivity.

[mivo]

In my experience with co-workers, friends, acquaintances, and relatives, "just users" don't really care about getting the latest features and new versions of the software they use. [...] For these people, I'd recommend upgrading from Long-Term Support release to Long-Term Support release.

*nods* I know some people that fall into this category as well. I'd almost consider them "corporate users", or just people like my mother (in her 60s) who turns on her computer perhaps ten hours a week to surf the web. I agree that the LTS releases are perfect in these cases.

But there is another group of people who use their computer more actively and like to have the newest versions. I would probably call them the "avid desktop user". They know what the latest versions are, but are used to the Windows method of going to a web site, downloading the latest version of their software and installing it. They are somewhat knowledgeable about applications and games, but are clueless about the OS they use (which they usually upgrade every three or four years when they get a new computer). To them, the OS is something that is "just there" and that "just works" So, basically, if they install a driver, it tends to be just there unless there is a real need to get a new version. (I realise that .deb packages can be downloaded and installed regardless of whether they are in the repository, but that does defeat the purpose of the package management system a little.)

I believe that this group is rather large and that it is also the group that Ubuntu appeals to -- or differently put, Ubuntu is the distro that people of this group are likely to choose if they decide to look into alternatives to Windows. Users of this type want "new stuff" and the latest versions, but they don't have the knowhow to deal with an acting up OS. They just see the message that there is a new Ubuntu release, hit the button, and expect that their systems still works afterwards and that they can play with the "new stuff". If something breaks, they are lost. It's one thing to toy with an application, another to fix an OS.

So they come here and ask for help, and one of the standard responses is, "You really should re-install the OS, that is the best method to update to a new release anyway." And I think that is just too easy and a little "weltfremd". It's an expert approach, for people who enjoy tweaking their system and know exactly what they need to reinstall, where to find it, what to change to get back a working system within five or less hours (five hours of fuzzing around with the system can be a lot of time for home users who chill at the computer a couple of hours in the evening).

Additionally, there is the problem that the Ubuntu installer by default creates one partition for /. It's that, or the very basic manual partitioning without any help text. What is missing is another guided option where the installer briefly explains the advantages of having a separate /home partition and then uses 10 GB for /home and the rest for /home, if the available space is sufficient for a setup like this. If people only have one large / partition, "reinstalling" also means a complete loss of their media files, settings, etc, at which point I imagine they will be so fed up and annoyed that they move on to another distro or, worse, back to Windows.

These are the reasons why I feel that making sure that the upgrade to a new release works flawlessly is so important. I think even most testers of the beta just started with a fresh install. That is what I did as well when I tried the Gutsy Beta, so I'm certainly part of the problem. :) (And I promise I will try to test the upgrading mechanism when HH reaches the beta stage -- should have a spare machine by then, too, which I did not during the Gutsy beta.)

Like I said, I greatly enjoy Ubuntu and particularly its community. The quality of the community is truly awesome. A bit of fine tuning of release upgrades and perhaps some partitioning templates.would pay off, though. :)

[julian67]

*nods*
Additionally, there is the problem that the Ubuntu installer by default creates one partition for /. It's that, or the very basic manual partitioning without any help text. What is missing is another guided option where the installer briefly explains the advantages of having a separate /home partition and then uses 10 GB for /home and the rest for /home, if the available space is sufficient for a setup like this. If people only have one large / partition, "reinstalling" also means a complete loss of their media files, settings, etc, at which point I imagine they will be so fed up and annoyed that they move on to another distro or, worse, back to Windows.



This has always struck me an odd default and a very bad choice. It's hard to think of any situation where this kind of configuration is a good idea. When new users run into serious trouble the chances of their being able to save/recover their personal files is very small indeed. Ubuntu and derivatives are the only distros I've used that do this by default. If I had lost data and then found that pretty much any other distro would have kept it safe I would be doubly annoyed.

[bobbob1016]

I'm not sure if any admins will read this far, or developers, but I have a suggestion on how to make the upgrade process less painful so there will be less "Bye Ubuntu" going around. If there is a "suggestions" section, could someone point me that way?

Upgrade/Fresh-Install ideas:

Make the default partition scheme have a different partition for /home, /, and /usr/bin or where ever programs are installed. This way the "upgrade" can be more of a fresh install, without killing programs/settings. Since some people see the need to add files and folders to /, the upgrade could just throw out any folders that it knows about and leave the rest.

It could also keep track of files that the user modifies that came with the install. I have also heard people saying "install-upgrade-upgrade" meaning install every third release. It might be an idea to throw in a file that says what the last fresh install was, and say "You should do a fresh install" after the second upgrade.

It could also keep a build file or something of every program installed not via the repos, so they could be reinstalled after the upgrade.

[GrayWizardLinux]

Ozmoid. I too come from macs and love but have been very interested in linux and not ageek at all. I hate woindows and usedit for 15 years too a long time ago.

I am disappointed in linux and ubuntu for all of the hassles - I tried on 3 different laptops. most stuff does not work. But I did find Mint and I just did a refurb thinkpad and installed Linux Mint celena and everything freaking works. Maybe give that a try. also depends on the hardware you have but my older refurb I bought works out fo the box. sound, trackpad, wireless encrypted to an airport extreme, and sleep/suspend, hibernate, video CD dvds, and burning etc. I am so impressed by Mint I will never try anything . I also will always be a diehard Mac OS dude by the way!

best wishes,
GW

[jonathonblake]

Apple has a big advantage in that they control your whole experience with a new machine - hardware specifically.

Especially hardware. I have a Mac sitting here that I'm hoping I find a used monitor for, so I can use it. I bought the box after being told that my monitor would work. After spending US$200 in video connectors so I could use my monitor, I discover that I have to have a special monitor. One that is not made by Apple. :(

I'm not sure why I haven't tossed that mac, because the odds are I'll never find a monitor that works with it.

xan

jonathon

[Pierre Lourens]

Especially hardware. I have a Mac sitting here that I'm hoping I find a used monitor for, so I can use it. I bought the box after being told that my monitor would work. After spending US$200 in video connectors so I could use my monitor, I discover that I have to have a special monitor. One that is not made by Apple. :(

I'm not sure why I haven't tossed that mac, because the odds are I'll never find a monitor that works with it.

xan

jonathon

Sorry about your Mac problems; I haven't had any problems with my Mac hardware connecting to differewnt types of hardware. I originally bought my Macbook for the hardware and operating system, and I used Mac OS X for almost a year and a half.

Then I switched to Ubuntu, because I feel more at-home in Linux. I have completely erased my internal Mac OS X partition and run Ubuntu exclusively -- with a Mac OS X backup on an external (for firmware updates). All of that being said, I would not hesitate to get another Mac. The hardware and build quality totally wins me over; this Macbook is a beast that is completely compatible with Ubuntu. Plus, it has handled drops and dings and abuse and still works like a charm.

[jonathonblake]

Sorry about your Mac problems; I haven't had any problems with my Mac hardware connecting to different types of hardware.

The Mac I bought is known amongst mac users for both being unsupported by Apple, and incompatible with Mac hardware. Something I learned after buying it. :(

It looks like a nice system. I just can't use it.

xan

jonathon

[natehatewindows]

Sorry guys and gals, I'm gave it a shot and I;m going to have to say good bye to Linux and Ubuntu. Without wireless support and an easy way to install programs, this is something that I'm not going to get. I'm a windows user and that's all there is to it.

I tried, but it just isn't going to work.

WOW,,,,im pretty new at this whole thing but wanted to share,,,dont know why i would bore you all with my thoughts but i will. :) I have use windows (clear back to the DOS days) and of course grew up on macs in school. Ubuntu is so easy to use for me it not even funny. Sure there are a few hard moments (maybe even days) where you just cant get something to work right but windows gives me far more bad dreams that linux. And i think its kinda cool having that relieving, rewarding feeling after you solve a problem after you work on it for days (and the sad part is its usually the easiest way that you didn't try because you thought "thats to easy"). I guess it makes me feel a little like im not lazy too :)

I think everyone has a choice to make, if linux is to hard for you than maybe you should go back to windows....I think the only reason windows is so easy is because you dont have as many options as linux.....oh and the fact that everything (almost) costs money.

Well im one with my rambling now so you all have a good day! :)

[soulbreak]

WOW,,,,im pretty new at this whole thing but wanted to share,,,dont know why i would bore you all with my thoughts but i will. :) I have use windows (clear back to the DOS days) and of course grew up on macs in school. Ubuntu is so easy to use for me it not even funny. Sure there are a few hard moments (maybe even days) where you just cant get something to work right but windows gives me far more bad dreams that linux. And i think its kinda cool having that relieving, rewarding feeling after you solve a problem after you work on it for days (and the sad part is its usually the easiest way that you didn't try because you thought "thats to easy"). I guess it makes me feel a little like im not lazy too :)

I think everyone has a choice to make, if linux is to hard for you than maybe you should go back to windows....I think the only reason windows is so easy is because you dont have as many options as linux.....oh and the fact that everything (almost) costs money.

Well im one with my rambling now so you all have a good day! :)

Windows is more popular than linux because when you plug something in it usually works. I have ubuntu on a laptop and just about everything I try to install has given me a problem unless I get a deb package. However, most of the fixes for things I need involve 3rd party non-deb packages. Bottom line, don't get linux unless you like troubleshooting everything you do.

[bozotheclown]

what good are repositories when network-manager is so bugridden that a network connection works for 5 seconds and quits after that?

I'm sticking with Ubuntu but it's not easy without a decent working network connection.
What good is a so called user friendly os when you still need sudo and terminal crap to install some dubious windows network driver with a wrapper to find out the problem is still there because it's a problem in network-manager.
Which you can;'t update because the network connection doesn't work.

I have people yelling about leaving an os and I hate people responding without reading:)

again, I'm not leaving. Ubuntu will be great
edit: I've not left but Ubuntu is definatly not as click as Vista, not even with all the eyecandy enabled and my 17" 1280x1024 tft feels way to small. In Vista it's ok, in Ubuntu it's too small. Weird. I'm getting a 1680x1050 22" anyway so I'm very curious as to how Ubuntu feels with that.

Bye!

BTW, there are easy ways to install programs if they are in the repositories.

[ddrichardson]

Windows is more popular than linux because when you plug something in it usually works.Perhaps there is better driver support, but its not the reason Windows is so popular - that's purely down to OEM installations on nearly every new PC on the planet.

[mivo]

It is true that Ubuntu works best if it has a wired connection to a router with DHCP. It is however not Ubuntu's fault that some manufacturer's of wireless devices do not provide binary drivers for Linux, or even the specs so that unpaid coders can program drivers. This is a tedious discussion and I know it is not as easy as saying "you bought hardware that was designed only with Windows in mind", but the fault is not that of Linux. You are trying to run Linux on Windows hardware, and it is remarkable that talented people came up with workarounds and solutions that work at least in some cases. There are wireless devices that work wonderfully right out of the box.

[Pierre Lourens]

It is true that Ubuntu works best if it has a wired connection to a router with DHCP. It is however not Ubuntu's fault that some manufacturer's of wireless devices do not provide binary drivers for Linux, or even the specs so that unpaid coders can program drivers. This is a tedious discussion and I know it is not as easy as saying "you bought hardware that was designed only with Windows in mind", but the fault is not that of Linux. You are trying to run Linux on Windows hardware, and it is remarkable that talented people came up with workarounds and solutions that work at least in some cases. There are wireless devices that work wonderfully right out of the box.

I couldn't have said it better myself. We can at least thank the community for the immense support that we do have, mostly out of volunteer work.

[PillowFightin]

Bottom line, don't get linux unless you like troubleshooting everything you do.

Unfortunately, I am finding this to be my experience and it's not even an exaggeration--I have had to futz with almost every single thing I've tried to do with it. Ubuntu is an amazing black of hole of time and that seems to be the case whether you know Linux or not. I love the concept of Ubuntu and I am willing to learn how to use it, but I don't have time to troubleshoot every single freaking thing I do.

What makes me mad are all the Linux cheerleaders shouting, "The First Linux For Your Grandma!" when it is so not ready for that. It's not even ready for the fairly computer savvy.

Also, you're going to have a very hard time convincing the 95% of the market using Winblows--people that haven't touched a command line in over a decade--to go back to it. I know some Ubuntu fans really love it. The rest of us don't.

Still, I haven't given up entirely. I'm keeping several computers around that are running Gutsy and will wait patiently until Ubuntu gets more polished over the coming years.

[mivo]

What makes me mad are all the Linux cheerleaders shouting, "The First Linux For Your Grandma!" when it is so not ready for that. It's not even ready for the fairly computer savvy.

This heavily depends on the hardware. The Ubuntu box I write this from was bought from an electronics chain two years ago, and was not custom-built. In fact, it was made by Medion, a brand that is sold in large stores and even supermarkets. (It came with Windows, of course.) So this is the type of computer that very average people are likely to buy.

Ubuntu installed flawlessly on this computer, and all hardware components were recognized, right down to the card reader. Every last piece of hardware worked without any work in the shell, searching for binary drivers, etc. It simply worked. In fact, even my mother (who is in her 60s) could easily have installed Ubuntu on this computer. (My take on upgrading from 7.04 to 7.10 differs a bit, but I voiced my concerns in a different post.)

Is this necessarily the rule? I don't know. I can only go by my own experiences, and both of the computers I installed Ubuntu on (Xubuntu on the other machine) required no work in the shell or "futzing". I also tried Kubuntu and it worked out of the box as well. A third computer that I expect to arrive within a week is custom-built, so I assume that it will work just as well. So, it cannot be generalized that Ubuntu (or other Linux distros) are always requiring expert knowledge or anything that exceeds a few clicks.

I understand that there are people who do have problems. It's usually machines that were designed specially for Windows and that have hardware components that are designed for Windows, and for Windows only. Blame the hardware manufacturers for this, and for being unwilling to release Linux drivers or even proper documentation. I covered this in a previous post already. People who have wireless issues should be on the manufacturer's board and ask for Linux support, not on a Linux board and being upset at Linux for not supporting their Windows hardware.

Also, let's keep in mind that most people never install Windows by themselves. It comes pre-installed, often even without original disks with just a recovery CD. If they do have to reinstall, it is frequently far more involved than putting in the disk and clicking a few buttons. I don't have or use Vista, but the Vista problems with machines that were originally sold with XP are quite apparent if you take a virtual stroll and look around.

I'm not into the "Linux vs. Windows" wars, and I don't feel that XP was a horrible XP. It worked well for me when I used it, but my needs and expectations to an OS are not met by Windows anymore, and I do not agree with Microsoft's visions and definition of privacy. DRM is not something I will support, and I want to control my computer, not be controlled by it.

[GSF1200S]

This heavily depends on the hardware. The Ubuntu box I write this from was bought from an electronics chain two years ago, and was not custom-built. In fact, it was made by Medion, a brand that is sold in large stores and even supermarkets. (It came with Windows, of course.) So this is the type of computer that very average people are likely to buy.

Ubuntu installed flawlessly on this computer, and all hardware components were recognized, right down to the card reader. Every last piece of hardware worked without any work in the shell, searching for binary drivers, etc. It simply worked. In fact, even my mother (who is in her 60s) could easily have installed Ubuntu on this computer. (My take on upgrading from 7.04 to 7.10 differs a bit, but I voiced my concerns in a different post.)

Is this necessarily the rule? I don't know. I can only go by my own experiences, and both of the computers I installed Ubuntu on (Xubuntu on the other machine) required no work in the shell or "futzing". I also tried Kubuntu and it worked out of the box as well. A third computer that I expect to arrive within a week is custom-built, so I assume that it will work just as well. So, it cannot be generalized that Ubuntu (or other Linux distros) are always requiring expert knowledge or anything that exceeds a few clicks.

I understand that there are people who do have problems. It's usually machines that were designed specially for Windows and that have hardware components that are designed for Windows, and for Windows only. Blame the hardware manufacturers for this, and for being unwilling to release Linux drivers or even proper documentation. I covered this in a previous post already. People who have wireless issues should be on the manufacturer's board and ask for Linux support, not on a Linux board and being upset at Linux for not supporting their Windows hardware.

Also, let's keep in mind that most people never install Windows by themselves. It comes pre-installed, often even without original disks with just a recovery CD. If they do have to reinstall, it is frequently far more involved than putting in the disk and clicking a few buttons. I don't have or use Vista, but the Vista problems with machines that were originally sold with XP are quite apparent if you take a virtual stroll and look around.

I'm not into the "Linux vs. Windows" wars, and I don't feel that XP was a horrible XP. It worked well for me when I used it, but my needs and expectations to an OS are not met by Windows anymore, and I do not agree with Microsoft's visions and definition of privacy. DRM is not something I will support, and I want to control my computer, not be controlled by it.

This wont be the case if trusted computing comes along (read my sig).

I agree here. For instance, Gutsy runs my newest lappie with NO problems. Wireless out of the box, Nvidia drivers after enabling them in the restricted manager- everything.

On the other hand, my older lappie using a broadcom wireless card and an ati video card is a different story. Ive gone through hell trying to set that damn thing up, I just havent had any luck (yet).

Ill say this again, and its already been said a million times- its not the fault of Linux that these tweaks need to be done- its the damn hardware manufacturers! In windows, if a device doesnt work, thats it.. No tweaking or tinkering, it just doesnt work. With Linux we have all these ingenious ways of getting things to work BECAUSE OF THE COMMAND LINE. Its a bonus. I havent had to dive into the terminal on my main lappie in a while, and even then it was to use aptitude for some programs I wanted to install. When Linux gains market share and drivers come out for it, as well as more developers creating stuff for it, Linux will become much more diverse.

With a very FEW exceptions, nearly EVERY computer will work 100% with Linux if you invest that time, and thats pretty good when you consider how little support we get from the hardware world....

[PillowFightin]

It works great on newer systems, yes. Yet I install it largely on older systems, mostly because it runs faster than Windows...and then there's the $$ factor (because I have none). In fact, I would venture to say a lot of people are installing on older machines for the same reasons. So this problem isn't going to go away just because bigger and better new systems are coming out that play better with Linux.

This may sound a little silly, but it would be great if a little more effort were put into supporting older hardware--really. That's where Linux can really help and offer new life to machines that would otherwise be landfill junk. The recycling program I know of locally will not release its grip on WIN2k because they simply do not have the resources to troubleshoot Linux. And it's a shame. They have to pay Microsoft licensing money for a seven year-old OS that's a piece of junk, but is unfortunately easier for volunteers to support than Ubuntu. (Yes, I know about the program in Portland. It's great but rare!).

[Pierre Lourens]

I want to control my computer, not be controlled by it.

Amen. It is for these reasons that I switched from Mac OS X -- a great operating system -- to Ubuntu -- a great operating system, community, and philosophy.

[mivo]

It works great on newer systems, yes. Yet I install it largely on older systems, mostly because it runs faster than Windows...

I installed Xubuntu on a store-bought P3/700 that was purchased in 1999 (works as a firewall and backup server now). The box I sit on was bought over two years ago, nearly three. These are not new computers, and both required no tweaking. Usually, Linux has more trouble on new hardware because of missing drivers and workarounds. That, precisely, is why I hand-picked the parts for my new machine. (I won't know before next week if there are any problems, but I looked up every part of the computer and checked for Linux compatibility.)

[julian67]

It works great on newer systems, yes. Yet I install it largely on older systems, mostly because it runs faster than Windows...and then there's the $$ factor (because I have none). In fact, I would venture to say a lot of people are installing on older machines for the same reasons. So this problem isn't going to go away just because bigger and better new systems are coming out that play better with Linux.

This may sound a little silly, but it would be great if a little more effort were put into supporting older hardware--really. That's where Linux can really help and offer new life to machines that would otherwise be landfill junk. The recycling program I know of locally will not release its grip on WIN2k because they simply do not have the resources to troubleshoot Linux. And it's a shame. They have to pay Microsoft licensing money for a seven year-old OS that's a piece of junk, but is unfortunately easier for volunteers to support than Ubuntu. (Yes, I know about the program in Portland. It's great but rare!).

There is a good choice of distros that are designed specifically for older hardware. Gnome is not a good choice on older systems.

You could look at dsl, dsl-n, puppy, wolvix, deli, dyne. All are probably going to be a lot more satisfactory out of the box than Ubuntu on old machines.

[xcafeus]

I think Gutsy has issues and the developers know about those issues. The problem is IMO that they do not have enough time or resources to address every bug. Compiz, sound and other issues should be addressed asap now that there is so much publicity regarding Gutsy. Many ppl will try and give up and will influence other ppl too.

The product is not ready for Grandmothers as a friend mentioned before... so it should not be advertised as such.

[aberracus]

Ok, i have been in the computer bussiness for like 12 years or more, 2 years ago i moved form windows to mac osx, i love it,I LOVE IT, but i want my mother in law and my father to left windows in the past, so i decided, ubuntu 7.1 was the solution, no more virii no more problems.. it installed out of the box....

BUT oh my good installing softwarea and conponents shouldnt be so GEEKY, in windows every software has an installer, in mac you just drop the application in the application folders, in linux.... you have to go to synaptiic and packs and my god! everything probably is there but is VERY DIFFICULT and unfriendly.

Command prompt is a bonus but also a burden, if the user can just drag and drop applications and install drivers with instaqllers with GUIs we are in the 21 century my god! The prgogrammers should stop using the command prompt to soole problems, the users the final users arent gona use command prompt, the programmers should start creating GUIs for everything, and the instalaltion system is horrible!!

just my 2 cents.

[mikeymackinon]

I feel your pain and I understand although there is a greater cause to using Linux. Everyone in the world should do his or her share of supporting Linux because the over all result will be tremendous. Free software advances in computing more people using computer loer costs on laptop and desktops and the list goes on. I feel you pain pain I will still smile thought the pain of using Linux because of the greater good. Best of Luck and Thanks

[julian67]

Ok, i have been in the computer bussiness for like 12 years or more, 2 years ago i moved form windows to mac osx, i love it,I LOVE IT, but i want my mother in law and my father to left windows in the past, so i decided, ubuntu 7.1 was the solution, no more virii no more problems.. it installed out of the box....

BUT oh my good installing softwarea and conponents shouldnt be so GEEKY, in windows every software has an installer, in mac you just drop the application in the application folders, in linux.... you have to go to synaptiic and packs and my god! everything probably is there but is VERY DIFFICULT and unfriendly.

Command prompt is a bonus but also a burden, if the user can just drag and drop applications and install drivers with instaqllers with GUIs we are in the 21 century my god! The prgogrammers should stop using the command prompt to soole problems, the users the final users arent gona use command prompt, the programmers should start creating GUIs for everything, and the instalaltion system is horrible!!

just my 2 cents.

I think you missed something ;-) You can use the Add/Remove menu item. Click on it and it opens up a very easy and simple software browser. You click on what you like the look of and it gets installed. It seems to me that people who find Synaptic technical or geeky are often going to be the same people who aren't going to enjoy or be very successful at hunting down the right application using Google or similar.

[mivo]

... in windows every software has an installer, in mac you just drop the application in the application folders, in linux.... you have to go to synaptiic and packs and my god! everything probably is there but is VERY DIFFICULT and unfriendly.

So, having an "Add/remove ..." option in the Application menu that offers a huge amount of tested and well-selected software sorted by category and with a detailed description that is automatically downloaded on demand and installed, including dependencies, and added to your software menu is ... unfriendly and "geeky"?

How is this "unfriendlier" than Windows, where you have to deal with numerous different types of installers that you need to search for and download from ad-ridden web page and that perform no version or dependency control and clutter your system, and that rarely remove all of their files and registry entries?

Did you actually looked through Ubuntu's menus?

Synaptic is user-friendly as well (did you see that there are buttons to display software categories?), but if for some reason that is still too intimidating, the "Add/remove ..." option in Applications is superior to everything I have seen on Windows and Mac (and Atari ST/GEM, Amstrad CPC, OS/2 ;)).

[Pierre Lourens]

Ok, i have been in the computer bussiness for like 12 years or more, 2 years ago i moved form windows to mac osx, i love it,I LOVE IT, but i want my mother in law and my father to left windows in the past, so i decided, ubuntu 7.1 was the solution, no more virii no more problems.. it installed out of the box....

BUT oh my good installing softwarea and conponents shouldnt be so GEEKY, in windows every software has an installer, in mac you just drop the application in the application folders, in linux.... you have to go to synaptiic and packs and my god! everything probably is there but is VERY DIFFICULT and unfriendly.

Command prompt is a bonus but also a burden, if the user can just drag and drop applications and install drivers with instaqllers with GUIs we are in the 21 century my god! The prgogrammers should stop using the command prompt to soole problems, the users the final users arent gona use command prompt, the programmers should start creating GUIs for everything, and the instalaltion system is horrible!!

just my 2 cents.

That's your opinion, and I grant you that. I always thought that installing software from "Add/Remove" Applications was always easier than on Windows or even on Mac. The advantage here is that all the software that is completely compatible with Ubuntu is right there: searchable and easily downloadable. All you have to do is check the ones you want to add or remove, then click apply. It's done. I think that's easier than clicking through tons of EULAs and putting in personal information for every individual installation. (or scouring the internet for that matter).

Also, my 2 cents.

[Wingcommander]

I'm bored, so I'm going to have an argument with myself.
There is a point to this, so please bear with me...

Why did you install Linux?
Initially to run Asterisk. Been doing some stuff with it recently and thought it a good idea to have a server running at home.

Why Ubuntu?
I originally tried to install OpenSUSE, but the 3rd disk always failed for me. So, I tried Ubuntu and it installed from one CD with no problems.

And that's it?
Well, not quite. It installed but didn't run properly. It crashed every few minutes. Took me two days and a windows machine to find the problem with my usb wireless network dongle. But, with that problem solved, I got Asterisk compiled and running so happy days.

Hurrah. So where's the argument?
Well, after my success I thought, "this unix thinggy isn't so bad, maybe I'll use it as my desktop instead of windows.". So, I installed OpenOffice, eventually found VNC, loaded putty and away I went. At that precise moment, my laptop running windows died, leaving me reliant on my new, shiny Ubuntu installation. Ah well, I thought, it all seems to be going rather well.

Hmm..I sense trouble...
Oh yes. First was Skype. Wouldn't work on my 64bit installation. Two days later I found a great script by a guy named Cappy called getlib. This magically made it work. Great. Except I have no audio. I can play mp3's (albeit a bit more quietly than I'm used to), but I cannot talk to anyone. Looks like the microphone on my headset doesn't work. Tried it on my mates Windows box, all ok. Sigh.

Could anyone help?
Read the boards like a demon, and did everything I could find. At least I *think* I did, it was a little confusing to be honest. To this day doesn't work. Nor does it work on the built in softphone, Ekiga. I can hear ok but cannot talk. Well, actually that's not quite true either. The inbound sound is very noisy, something I never had on my Windows machine using xLite.

Anything else?
Well, getting things working can be a little baffling - not quite a world away but certainly a continent away (requiring a passport) from my windows world. When I buy something for windows, the thought "this might not work" doesn't really jump in my head. Installing something on Linux, my first thought is "here we go again..." fully expecting it to fail.

Well, surely you can get that on Windows?
Yes you can, but it seems *everything* I do on Linux requires something bizarre to be typed on the command line.

Hang on, this is a complex, multiuser operating system!
Yes, I know that.

Well, not everything is going to be easy.
I know that, too.

Sorry, your argument is what?
Well, so is a telly quite complex. If you had to edit config files on one telly to get the sound sync'd with the picture, then have it all thrown out again as soon as you added a new channel, would that be as popular as one that didn't? Things have to be configured for different applications, I know that, but it *feels* like you have to accept it's going to be hard. An engineer could rebuild his telly, I can't. More to the point, I don't want to.

Oh, so you're saying you *don't* like Linux?
Actually, no. I'm persevering. If I can't get my printer working in the next day or so (having upgraded rather foolishly to Gutsy Gibbon), necessity will force me back.

I'm bored. Summarise, please!
Ubuntu is free, and I love the idea of it, I really do. Windows is not perfect, and it costs a lot of money. I wish someone with far greater skill than I would spend some time creating install procedures with the success rate of a typical Windows application.

Linux is hard if you're not *that way inclined*. I still quite like it though.

Hang on, you said at the top there was a point to this?
Oh yeah, sorry. If I knew I was only going to have access to one machine for a critical job, it would be a Windows machine. I would love it to be a Linux one. People get frustrated and leave because they don't understand. Now, you can kick them out the door and boast how much you prefer the simpler life of Linux (??), or with a little skillful input from the obviously very clever people around here, make their life easier and *really* get to the masses.

Told you I was bored.....

[defconoii]

im about to leave the ubuntu community because of blatent neglect of support for the rt73 ralink Belkin F5D7050-4 rev:3002 wifi driver, it works in pclin*os and fedora and a dozen ppl I know have this card and are stuck with windows, thousands of ppl have this card so wtf... Why cant the dev's get it right and fix it, its even a blueprint for gutsy to have complete wireless support out of the box, Belkin/ralink have released open source drivers for this card and ubuntu cannot even do it right.... How could they screw up open src'd drivers?
Please fix this problem, I have waited since pre-edgy, feisty and gutsy...

[bwallum]

Hi Spacedogg

I do hope you come back. I went through the same frustration. I spent 6 months moving over to Ubuntu and now there is no way I will go back to windows. I keep an XP machine just in case but it is growing cobwebs now.

Ubuntu gives you just about everything you could wish for, what it dosn't provide you get to find at linux.org. For the first time in my 30 odd years of computing (remember the punched cards anybody?) I can honestly say I feel in control of my computer.

Look me up if you get back and I will be pleased to help you get up and running.

Kind Regards
Bob

[Afkpuz]

ok, i've been reading lots of posts in this thread and want to put in my 2 cents.

Alot of people have said that linux simply won't work for everyone. I would argue that linux is ideal for all but the professionals. Here are the types of users I see in the world. (let me know if you think there should be more)



Simple end users
Linux is a powerhouse for simple end users who just want to surf the net and check email. It will keep them safer than windows and will keep their system running smoothly...assuming they don't mess with it. Even then, there are lots of checks built in like permissions. If you don't tell them the admin password, it's pretty darn hard for them to mess up the system. Maybe even impossible. Simple-end users will find linux easy and beautiful. Remember, these are simple-users, like grandmas. (not those awesome tech savvy grandmas) Someone else will set up their system and make it easy for them to use their programs.

Moderate users
These are the guys who want to use their comps to be productive and do more than just surf. These users would not need any more programs than those offered in synaptic and add/remove. With all the free software that linux has, this person can easily find all the software he needs within add/remove. Most people fall within this group. The Moderates are smart enough to know the admin password, but don't need to use anything more than add/remove and maybe symantec. Again, these users would have help from someone else, but not need too much because linux is good at coasting. I.E. if it's working now, and you don't mess with it, it won't magically break like windows does.

Office/Business Workers
These folks obviously use their comps in the office. They need word processing first and foremost. They need to be able to make presentations and have their presentations be compatible with other business'. Open office takes care of that and then some. As with the moderate users, this group probably won't need too much outside of what can be set up by an IT guy. If the IT knows his linux, he can make his own script to install and configure all the needed programs and just run that on each comp in the office. Since many companes buy identical computers in bulk, if the IT guy can write up that script and get it working on one computer, it will save him so much time and configuration in the long run. And since linux is amazing at coasting, IT could spend less time trouble shooting and more time being productive. Not to mention that using linux saves boatloads of money for companies by not have to pay for multiple copies of xp licenses. Please note that there are many support centers that offer commercial support for linux at a fraction of the cost to windoze commercial support.

Gamers
This user group is much like the professional group. However, no other system, not matter how good will be able to compete with windoze until the monopoly of direct X is stripped from Microsoft. If linux was able to use direct X, I think the world would change. But that's more of a legal matter. Plus, wine is making darn good strides.

Power User
These users have a good knowledge of computers and need their comp to really perform. I fall into this group as a student in college. It is obvious that this user is going to need to be able to tweak linux, but the fact that he is a power user should help make that part easy. They will find so much freedom in linux and will be amazed at how much they can get for free. It's just those clutch things that need work that could keep these users away (i.e. webcam support). But because these users are power users, they have the ability to get involved and help fix those problems. Maybe they could upgrade and become developers. Either way, the list of reasons that these users have for not using linux gets smaller with every upgrade.


Pros
This group makes their living from their comps. This group is the one that needs those power-programs to survive. I don't think this group should expect linux to meet their professional needs. Linux may not be able to replace professional software, but it's getting there. It defintely has the capability to host powerhouse programs, we just need people who can team up and make those programs. I'm sure that some pros can use linux, like programmers and maybe webdesigners.

Techies
These folks are amazing with comps and are the one's who created linux. They naturally will gravitate towards linux like flies to honey. These folks like to write their own programs and linux is an ideal platform for programing.


I'll concede the Pro's point. Since I'm no pro, I can't really say too much. The gamer group is more hung up on legalities than whether it is capable of playing games. (direct x is required for most games and is owned by Microsoft. If linux can use direct x, linux can play games) However, look at the other groups. The simple-end users and moderate users are perfectly suited for linux. The techies will naturally like linux.

The office users would loose little or no productivity with commercial linux support and would save their company money.


So really, the only real debate is the power users.

I would say that a large chunk of the people who use computers would fall into the first 2 categories. Mostly everyone but gamers and pros would benefit more from linux. So then is not linux ideal for most?

at do you all think?

[jbaerbock]

Network manager is odd but it is not the applets fault but Ubuntu's configuration of wireless that would be at fault for your problems. Try wicD it works the best in my honest opinion. And really Ubuntu based systems have worked better than windows for me as far as plug and play goes. Such as my 3 in one printer which works plug and play with ubuntu and can't get the dang thing working in windows. Really depends on what you are trying to plug in. My flashdrive also works plug and play in Ubuntu and any linux whilst in windows I must restart for it to work (for some odd reason).

My only issue with Linux is stability. I have had a lot of wierd system meltdowns. I can always extract my files safetly and re-install the OS but leaves me with a sense of unease. And this has only happened in Gnome. Hence why I am a KDE or XFCE man.

[Raistlin355]

Sorry but why do people feel the need to announce this?

to start flame wars

[Pierre Lourens]

So really, the only real debate is the power users.

I would say that a large chunk of the people who use computers would fall into the first 2 categories. Mostly everyone but gamers and pros would benefit more from linux. So then is not linux ideal for most?

at do you all think?

Theoretically, I agree with you. The problem here is that most simple-end users and even moderate users who don't really need admin rights demand it. The same goes for business.

I say this because I worked in tech support for a municipal government, and for some reason every user demanded to know their admin password--as if it would fix all their problems. The reason they didn't get in the first place was because they'd mess things up, which always happens when the client gets the password to do things that they have no idea about.

So the real question is whether the users are ready to shut up and fit into the "categories" that you gave, instead of Linux being ready or not. Unfortunately, even the most ignorant people at my workplace thought they were power users (because they knew how to turn on their PC).

[Sutur]

Without wireless support and an easy way to install programs, this is something that I'm not going to get.

Of all the operating systems, and distributions I have tried, nothing even comes CLOSE to how easy it is to install software than on a debian-based distribution.

apt-get install <program>

How much f_cking easier does it have to be?

[NoSmokingBandit]

synaptic is even easier than that if you hate the command line. When ubuntu works, its sweet, but when its broke its hell to fix. I have yet to get my wireless working right after days of troubleshooting. Now once that works i am going to have one incredibly easy to use os. Then i'll only keep XP for Photoshop and Guitar Pro (although the guitar pro guys said they are making a linux version !!!)

[jonathonblake]

Power User
These users have a good knowledge of computers and need their comp to really perform.

There are two types of power users:
* Program specific: These people know how to make the software they use do wheelies whilst cornering. They may not know how to start any other program on their computer, though. Depending upon the niche that they occupy, FLOSS may not be able to cater to their "needs". (Typically these users are "professionals".)

* OS orientated: These people can get their OS to create cartwheels, whilst doing a wheelie. This group will love Linux, because they can get their OS to do a cartwheel whilst doing wheelies going around a corner.

Pros
This group makes their living from their comps. This group is the one that needs those power-programs to survive. I don't think this group should expect linux to meet their professional needs. Linux may not be able to replace professional software, but it's getting there. It definitely has the capability to host powerhouse programs, we just need people who can team up and make those programs. I'm sure that some pros can use linux, like programmers and maybe webdesigners.

How useful Linux is for this group, depends very much what market they are in. The major hurdle is the lack of software that has the features/tools that the Pros use.

The "professional" level software won't be provided, unless the pros are on the platform and the pros won't move to the platform unless the software is there. Whether government requirements for open formats change that picture, I have no idea.

The other issue is that new software is getting pattern protection, thereby making it harder for FLOSS alternatives to be developed.
(Somebody else can explain why a product distributed in the mid-fifties (I think it was patented, but can't find it in the USPTO database) can be patented again in the seventies, and for a third time in 2005.)

xan

jonathon

[Raistlin355]

Of all the operating systems, and distributions I have tried, nothing even comes CLOSE to how easy it is to install software than on a debian-based distribution.

apt-get install <program>

How much f_cking easier does it have to be?

I think he wants to double click an icon, and hit next about 5-6 times to install his program, although when you think about it typing sudo apt-get install <program> takes LESS time.......................

[GepettoBR]

synaptic is even easier than that if you hate the command line. When ubuntu works, its sweet, but when its broke its hell to fix. I have yet to get my wireless working right after days of troubleshooting. Now once that works i am going to have one incredibly easy to use os. Then i'll only keep XP for Photoshop and Guitar Pro (although the guitar pro guys said they are making a linux version !!!)

no love for The GIMP?

[NoSmokingBandit]

The gimp is useless to me. Theres no CMYK support, how am i supposed to print something? That and its just not as powerful as CS2. Argue what you will, the Gimp is not near as powerful as cs2. I really hope adobe grows some balls and makes cs4 for linux. That would impact the pc scene like nothing else.

[ddrichardson]

That would impact the pc scene like nothing else.Except Microsoft releasing Office for Linux.

[Artificial Intelligence]

The gimp is useless to me. Theres no CMYK support, how am i supposed to print something? That and its just not as powerful as CS2. Argue what you will, the Gimp is not near as powerful as cs2. I really hope adobe grows some balls and makes cs4 for linux. That would impact the pc scene like nothing else.

I've heard that CS2 is working with the latest wine.

[julian67]

The gimp is useless to me. Theres no CMYK support, how am i supposed to print something? That and its just not as powerful as CS2. Argue what you will, the Gimp is not near as powerful as cs2. I really hope adobe grows some balls and makes cs4 for linux. That would impact the pc scene like nothing else.

Gimp 2.4 was released this week with CMYK support

[NoSmokingBandit]

Except Microsoft releasing Office for Linux.
I think adobe's support would be more influential on true cross-platform apps. If MS released Office '08 for linux about 3 people would buy it, the rest (like me) would keep on using OOo which is probably the best free software available.

I've heard that CS2 is working with the latest wine.
I heard that and tried to install it by copying the files over from my windows partition and it didnt work. I've been meaning to try it but i havent found my cd yet :\

Gimp 2.4 was released this week with CMYK support
Sweet beans, they finally did it. even so i wont be using Gimp, its just not as powerful as Cs2. For being free and all it is a really good program, but it doesnt hold a candle to cs2 in terms of performance and power.

[ddrichardson]

If MS released Office '08 for linux about 3 people would buy it, the rest (like me) would keep on using OOo which is probably the best free software available.I think you're being a little disingenuous. Microsoft Office is, like it or not, the predominant office suite in use today and frequently stated as a reason to stick with Windows (I don't know what Wine support is like).

Besides, you were discussing the effect:
That would impact the pc scene like nothing else.I'm pretty sure Microsoft releasing their products for Linux would be right up there amongst the most monumental moments in open source history (not that it's going to happen).

[NoSmokingBandit]

The thing is it wasnt a huge deal when the released it for macs. It was important, but not the biggest story ever.
MS will never release office for linux because then everyone would release linux apps to follow suit and windows would die. So we cant really look for that, but adobe has no ties to any single os. I just really want native cs4 with no wine in the mix so i am a little biased :)

[ddrichardson]

The thing is it wasnt a huge deal when the released it for macs.I see what you're saying but it's not really the same, moving to Apple means changing hardware, for the most part moving to Linux doesn't.

Adobe's attitude to Linux has been a little weak really. In 2004 there were suggestions they might be moving (http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1711282,00.asp) towards Desktop Linux support but it hasn't happened, short of very late flash support (proprietry) and acrobat reader.

[jdrodrig]

I find it interesting that what has been proposed as a breaktrough in linux adaptability in the last few posts: the release of Adobe's Photoshop and MS Office in linux...

concern the release of not open source software in an open source community!

I cannot help but wonder, how would the pure OS fanatics react to such releases....

From my perspective, I think such release would help convince open source fanatics that there is nothing wrong to have propietary software if it gets the job done faster than open source versions, that open source is about freedom, including the freedom to offer your product in a non open source form and letting people decide to take it or leave it...

[ddrichardson]

concern the release of not open source software in an open source community!

I cannot help but wonder, how would the pure OS fanatics react to such releases....I think you miss the jist of my post - I like to have "discussions" with NoSmokingBandit, I don't for a second think that MS will release for Linux.

In any case, open source is a great philosophy but I don't see a major problem with proprietry software running on Linux, providing that the actual specifications of any standards are open.

Open source and free software are probably two of the most misunderstood concepts in software.

[julian67]

Sweet beans, they finally did it. even so i wont be using Gimp, its just not as powerful as Cs2. For being free and all it is a really good program, but it doesnt hold a candle to cs2 in terms of performance and power.

Not a lot of point of saying (your erroneous belief in) the lack of such and such feature prevents you using something and then when the feature is found to be present being dismissive/sarcastic and saying you won't use it anyway. "performance and power" means nothing. If a statement like that isn't quantified it is only hot air.

[NoSmokingBandit]

Not a lot of point of saying (your erroneous belief in) the lack of such and such feature prevents you using something and then when the feature is found to be present being dismissive/sarcastic and saying you won't use it anyway. "performance and power" means nothing. If a statement like that isn't quantified it is only hot air.

I didnt say cmyk was the only reason i dont use it, but it is an example as to how far behind cs2 the gimp is. I need a program that has most features available. The Gimp is not this. I commented on CMYK support since that should have been included a long time ago which shows that there are alot of features not available that are necessary for professional graphic design in the Gimp.

[greymongrey]

I didnt say cmyk was the only reason i dont use it, but it is an example as to how far behind cs2 the gimp is. I need a program that has most features available. The Gimp is not this. I commented on CMYK support since that should have been included a long time ago which shows that there are alot of features not available that are necessary for professional graphic design in the Gimp.
Professionals really shouldn't be consider using The Gimp. It's great for us home users and hobbyists but it lacks the tools many professionals need.

[NoSmokingBandit]

Thats completely right. Im not a professional, but i got a copy of cs2 really cheap through school and i've used it for quite a few small projects and it has paid for itself. I love the gimp because its incredibly powerful for being completely free, but its nothing like cs2. Speaking of which, i just found my cs2 cd so im off to try it in wine. Wish me luck ;)

@ddrichardson
hypothetical discussions are great, no? So lets say MS makes office '09 for linux. By that time adobe will be close to finished with cs4 (hopefully, lol) and they will want to release it for linux. Next thing you know, windows is the new 'hobbyist' OS and linux takes position #1 in market share. Now one of two things happen to MS. They downsize drastically and become an office-suite company only forgetting the OS completely since there is no need for it, or they try to stay alive and keep making an OS until they die, at which point they cant make Office Linux anymore anyway... Ironic, eh? :popcorn:

[magwhyte]

And that was me about six or seven months ago. I was getting frustrated with the increasing frequency of Winfreezes (tm) every time I added a program. I purchased a copy of Linspire 5.0 and found that if I got one thing to work, it seemed to lead to another thing not working. At no point could I get the OS to operate everything at the same time. Quite bizarre and very off-putting.

The only thing that drove me back me to try again, this time with Ubuntu 7.10, was the fact that as time passed the freezing on Windows got ever more frequent. To the point of about 1 per hour, and I was not running heavy-duty applications.

I wasn't impressed with Linspire 6.0, it really seems quite a step backwards, so I thought I would give Ubunto 7.10 a try. Unbelievable experience! Everything works fine on the desktop. The CPU is now not sounding like its crunching dry cornflakes, the hard-drive light only lights up when I have actually asked it to do something (and yes, I had anti-virus, anti-spyware software installed, so I had not been hijacked), and the cooling fan now only has to run occasionally. All in all, this is a quantum leap forward from my experiences of Linspire 5.0 and 6.0.

The reason I mention all this is that there are many different levels of expertise and for whatever it's worth, the ease of use and stability of the current distribution means that it is now ready for prime time for people like me.

Another six months or a year, and I would predict that Ubuntu could be ready for marketing to the general public (Canonical, Ltd. are you getting ready for this?).

Anyway, I am now running one of my two desktops and my laptop with Ubuntu 7.10. I would run all three computers, but nothing I have yet found equals MS Publisher (not even Scribus).

This is great! I am happy, and I wouldn't be surprised to see the original poster back here in six or seven months.

Adrian

[TheBigBentley]

Ok so personally ive been on and off with linux. Its always been a pain in the ***. The biggest problem with linux right now is its lack of driver support. Not saying its bad but its just not that great. You know it took me almost an hour just to figure out how to set my refresh rate and proper screen res. Try telling the average joe he needs to go into the terminal and sudo into his xorg file and manually change perameters. That was obnoxious. My login screen aparrently uses diffrent settings which ive yet to fix.

HOWEVER! Ubuntu has come a LONG way since its hayday. The progress ive made since discovering wubi is huge. And Beryl (since I cant get compiz to work) is REALLY cool. Installing programs is a snap with synaptic. I think people just need to understand that if your trying to download source and compile it yourself that its going to be a little tricky. But hey thats what happens when using pre-release software right?

Once more PC manufacturers start building systems with linux in mind the scene will just explode!

Well thats my story. Hope you enjoyed it, minus the gramatical errors.

[julian67]

I personally know successful professional artists and photographers who use Gimp. The worlds of art and photography are huge and diverse and not everybody or every situation fits our preconceptions. It's a complete nonsense to say that professional users should not choose Gimp. You can spend 5 minutes looking and find many that do and are happy with that choice. People believe far too much of the marketing and the awe-struck uncritical journalism (mostly ill disguised "advertorials") that is written in photography and art magazines (whose profits of course come from vendors' advertising budgets).

I'm perfectly sure that there are many people who for their work do actually need various specific features found only in custom or proprietary software but this is only true for those particular people and is not a universal rule. There isn't a homogenous group "photographers" or a homogenous group "artists" who somehow all do the same thing with the same tools for the same reasons. These fields are particularly prone to diversity and a person described as "a professional photographer" or "professional artist" will perhaps not use one single identical, or even similar, tool to another or share any piece of working practise, method, outlook and so on. It's really sad to see people on a free software forum convincing each other to use non free software by using such invalid, ill considered reasoning, regurgitating the discredited arguments of the proprietary vendors and their resellers.

[ddrichardson]

hypothetical discussions are great, no?Hypothetically yes.
So lets say MS makes office '09 for linux. By that time adobe will be close to finished with cs4 (hopefully, lol) and they will want to release it for linux. Next thing you know, windows is the new 'hobbyist' OS and linux takes position #1 in market share. Now one of two things happen to MS. They downsize drastically and become an office-suite company only forgetting the OS completely since there is no need for it, or they try to stay alive and keep making an OS until they die, at which point they cant make Office Linux anymore anyway... Ironic, eh? :popcorn:I don't know. I think it would take more than these two applications moving across, there would need to be significant desktop usageto encourage hardware manufacturers to create Linux drivers first.

Of course, had the DoJ trial outcome worked out then MS would already be two seperate entities - OS and Applications.

I think though, people underestimate how aggressive Microsoft actually are as a company. Linux is a threat to them not because it is better or because it is significantly eating into their desktop domination, but because it could and there normal means of competing by buying up any threats or forcing them out of business doesn't work with OSS. Hence the fud and threats of lawsuits.

[jonathonblake]

From my perspective, I think such release would help convince open source fanatics that there is nothing wrong to have proprietary software if it gets the job done faster than open source versions,


A: I don't object to proprietary software in principle. What I do object it is:
* EULAs that prohibit me from owning and using the output that I create in a manner that I see fit to use them as;
* EULAs that prohibit me from utilizing the content that I purchase with the tools that I have/use;


B: I've become a lot more concerned about future proofing my data. Thus far, the majority of software that has allows future proofing has been distributed as FLOSS.

xan

jonathon

[jonathonblake]

I would run all three computers, but nothing I have yet found equals MS Publisher (not even Scribus).

MS Publisher?

What are doing with that tool, that can't be done in either GIMP, Scribus or OOo?

All I associate it with, is stuff akin to that created by a two year old given a Crayola box of 128 colours and finger paint.

xan

jonathon

[aysiu]

I love MS Publisher's Export to PDF functionality. You can't get that in Scribus.

Oh, wait...

[deadite66]

i can see why people would want to vent their anger in threads such as these, i just use linux now and again to keep my toe in the water.
i could use linux full time if i didn't need windows for games.

/rant on
if it doesn't take me over 10 reboots to get past the initramfs hang it's a whole xorg lockup.
so much for linux touted reliability, yeah i know the kernel is stable enough but for most people linux means the distro.

had no problems with edgy but gutsy has been a right pita.

[jbaerbock]

Personally I used OpenOffice in windows and therefore if MS Office moved to Linux I wouldn't really care since I prefer open office either way. Also Ubuntu has better OOTB driver support than windows by far. Windows only has better support for your particular coputer because it is preconfigured by the manufacturer to work. If you count how much hardware runs OOTB with drivers provided by Ubuntu vs. how many run with windows ootb without preconfiguration by a manufacturer you would find Ubuntu to win hands down.

[ddrichardson]

If you count how much hardware runs OOTB with drivers provided by Ubuntu vs. how many run with windows ootb without preconfiguration by a manufacturer you would find Ubuntu to win hands down.This has been covered already and while I agree, the majority of people will have an OEM install from their hardware vendor with driver support pre streamlined - so isn't an argument we are likely to win with most Windows users, who as far as they are concerned Windows does work OOTB.