The "Bye, Ubuntu" thread [Archive] - Page 4

Unhindered

August 20th, 2007, 04:35 PM

Sadly he does have a point with the geeks. I have been "geeked" in other forums (just recently joined this one).

To a newbie, getting slapped down or given tech questions in jargon is frustrating.

However, linux does have some great qualities. With no real demos to learn from, newbies are forced into forums to answer questions they can't comunicate well with.

Thanks. Here's an update:

One month after leaving Linux:
1. Eclipse with RSE (a web dev program written in Java) doesn't freeze like it did in Ubuntu, have had no problems at all - can make a living again.
2. Can run firefox from default installation and view flash without having to use command line (time consumption).
3. Am able to share (read & write) to network drives, which I was unable to do in Ubuntu despite installing all recommended software and searching google and forums for answers
4. Still able to use (other than a free Operating system) loads of Open Source software (eclipse, gimp, openoffice, and much much more)
5. Until coming back to the forums today, didn't get any sardonic comments like this one posted on this thread a few pages back: "Maybe you should read some articles and actually use your brain to find out."

I think Ubuntu is great for people who don't need computers. They may be learning how to visit a website or send e-mail. And loads of computer users are like this.

I think Ubuntu is great for tinkering computer guys, who have the time to install dual boots so they can use two operating systems for fun.

Ubuntu is also great for those who are adamant against windows and are unemployed and have the time to spend, are so experienced because of past time to learn, or don't care if the computer can do what they need as long as they can get the OS for free.

And I respect Linux ideologically, of course, because I think Microsoft is ridiculous, they overcharge, and I think they have often proven to hold to unethical business practices. But they've got working software.

I wonder if a lot of the rabid ravings against windows about errors and such are from users who haven't used a Windows PC since win 3.1?

I put hours and hours into switching entirely to Ubuntu, searching and searching for information, searching and posting to the forums. The problem is that I do use the computer for my work, and need a functional computer every day. I'll hopefully be back in a few more distros.

For those who are waiting for Microsoft to tank, building software, web pages and operating systems is all about usability. If it isn't easy to use, you've failed. Ubuntu is bringing Linux far, far ahead in this regard, and it'll get there.

No flaming required, I agree that Ubuntu is great - just not quite there yet.

And, unlike Windows, Ubuntu doesn't take 7 years for an update. So I'll be back to try again.

ukripper

August 20th, 2007, 04:43 PM

Thanks. Here's an update:

One month after leaving Linux:
1. Eclipse with RSE (a web dev program written in Java) doesn't freeze like it did in Ubuntu, have had no problems at all - can make a living again.
2. Can run firefox from default installation and view flash without having to use command line (time consumption).
3. Am able to share (read & write) to network drives, which I was unable to do in Ubuntu despite installing all recommended software and searching google and forums for answers
4. Still able to use (other than a free Operating system) loads of Open Source software (eclipse, gimp, openoffice, and much much more)
5. Until coming back to the forums today, didn't get any sardonic comments like this one posted on this thread a few pages back: "Maybe you should read some articles and actually use your brain to find out."

I think Ubuntu is great for people who don't need computers. They may be learning how to visit a website or send e-mail. And loads of computer users are like this.

I think Ubuntu is great for tinkering computer guys, who have the time to install dual boots so they can use two operating systems for fun.

Ubuntu is also great for those who are adamant against windows and are unemployed and have the time to spend, are so experienced because of past time to learn, or don't care if the computer can do what they need as long as they can get the OS for free.

And I respect Linux ideologically, of course, because I think Microsoft is ridiculous, they overcharge, and I think they have often proven to hold to unethical business practices. But they've got working software.

I wonder if a lot of the rabid ravings against windows about errors and such are from users who haven't used a Windows PC since win 3.1?

I put hours and hours into switching entirely to Ubuntu, searching and searching for information, searching and posting to the forums. The problem is that I do use the computer for my work, and need a functional computer every day. I'll hopefully be back in a few more distros.

For those who are waiting for Microsoft to tank, building software, web pages and operating systems is all about usability. If it isn't easy to use, you've failed. Ubuntu is bringing Linux far, far ahead in this regard, and it'll get there.

No flaming required, I agree that Ubuntu is great - just not quite there yet.

And, unlike Windows, Ubuntu doesn't take 7 years for an update. So I'll be back to try again.

Feel sorry that it din't workout for you. But nevermind depends on personal choice and you have already made your choice. these forums will be waiting for you to help you out whenevr you come back .

Goodluck mate.:)

lg5productions

August 20th, 2007, 04:53 PM

Agree 100% to you mate!!:)

\\:D/ Damn Skippy!! I took the plunge and installed my trusty Unbuntu on another partition on my laptop after enjoying it on my home computer. I enjoy its ease of flow so to speak, as it actually makes my laptop run smoother (Video/Sound/Internet/Web Surfing).
Yes there is still the problem with my wireless card (NDSWRAPPER hasn't been good to me :confused:) & my flash drive, but everything else is preforming swimingly. I'm even trying out a VMWare version of Unbuntu on both.
Now that's some flexibiltiy :KS

ukripper

August 21st, 2007, 06:21 AM

\\:D/ Damn Skippy!! I took the plunge and installed my trusty Unbuntu on another partition on my laptop after enjoying it on my home computer. I enjoy its ease of flow so to speak, as it actually makes my laptop run smoother (Video/Sound/Internet/Web Surfing).
Yes there is still the problem with my wireless card (NDSWRAPPER hasn't been good to me :confused:) & my flash drive, but everything else is preforming swimingly. I'm even trying out a VMWare version of Unbuntu on both.
Now that's some flexibiltiy :KS

Great. Do you know what chipset your wireless card is using?

can you do lspci and find out?

ranser

August 21st, 2007, 12:54 PM

There will always be someone to like blueberries! Don't be sorry for them nor do envy them! It is called life...

nooseisloose

August 21st, 2007, 05:45 PM

"Why do people feel the need to post this?"

Well, understand that he's actually doing everyone a favor by listing the reasons the product didn't work for him. Most people use Windows, so for Linux in any variety to have a shot at growth it has to appeal to a Windows-user's expectations. This guy took issue with the lack (or apparent lack) of support for wireless equipment and the installation procedure for additional software. If many other users are also turned off by these issues, it's something for the programming community to try to work on.

S.W.
Yes, he is doing the community a favor. For example, If he thinks that wireless is 'not supported' we can guess that he either has very strange hardware, or that we (the Linux / Ubuntu community) have failed at communicating one or more of the following: That some hardware does not have open source drivers. The reason(s) that some hardware does not have open source drivers. The difference between open source and closed source drivers. The many choices one may have to make when this happens. How to implement one or more of those choices.
When I hear a person make a statement like "wireless isn't supported on Linux" it means to me that there are a few pieces of non-technical information that this person needs before any technical advice would make sense to them. Also, that this person wouldn't be able to do much self help, because they're more likely to look at the website of the logo on the box their pc came in for drivers, in the form of a self extracting installer vis a vis windows, or Mac.
The distribution system for Linux and OSS is fundamentally different than many are accustomed to. They will not find the correct answers before they even find the questions.
Not my job! you might say... Fine don't do it, He'll go back to windows a bit wiser (He'll know that we're all jerks). But he won't suffer, we will.

wolfen69

August 21st, 2007, 06:08 PM

Thanks. Here's an update:

One month after leaving Linux:
1. Eclipse with RSE (a web dev program written in Java) doesn't freeze like it did in Ubuntu, have had no problems at all - can make a living again.
2. Can run firefox from default installation and view flash without having to use command line (time consumption).
3. Am able to share (read & write) to network drives, which I was unable to do in Ubuntu despite installing all recommended software and searching google and forums for answers
4. Still able to use (other than a free Operating system) loads of Open Source software (eclipse, gimp, openoffice, and much much more)
5. Until coming back to the forums today, didn't get any sardonic comments like this one posted on this thread a few pages back: "Maybe you should read some articles and actually use your brain to find out."

I think Ubuntu is great for people who don't need computers. They may be learning how to visit a website or send e-mail. And loads of computer users are like this.

I think Ubuntu is great for tinkering computer guys, who have the time to install dual boots so they can use two operating systems for fun.

Ubuntu is also great for those who are adamant against windows and are unemployed and have the time to spend, are so experienced because of past time to learn, or don't care if the computer can do what they need as long as they can get the OS for free.

And I respect Linux ideologically, of course, because I think Microsoft is ridiculous, they overcharge, and I think they have often proven to hold to unethical business practices. But they've got working software.

I wonder if a lot of the rabid ravings against windows about errors and such are from users who haven't used a Windows PC since win 3.1?

I put hours and hours into switching entirely to Ubuntu, searching and searching for information, searching and posting to the forums. The problem is that I do use the computer for my work, and need a functional computer every day. I'll hopefully be back in a few more distros.

For those who are waiting for Microsoft to tank, building software, web pages and operating systems is all about usability. If it isn't easy to use, you've failed. Ubuntu is bringing Linux far, far ahead in this regard, and it'll get there.

No flaming required, I agree that Ubuntu is great - just not quite there yet.

And, unlike Windows, Ubuntu doesn't take 7 years for an update. So I'll be back to try again.

windows is great for people that don't need their brains.

ukripper

August 22nd, 2007, 06:23 AM

windows is great for people that don't need their brains.

And also for people who can't be ar*sed to think for themselves.

tyggna1

August 22nd, 2007, 09:17 AM

Sorry but why do people feel the need to announce this?

Easy--their disappointed when they find out that "free" still has a cost associated with it. i.e. the learning curve and the price for research and setup. Don't worry, by the time windows Bistro comes out, I don't think there will be too many regrets. Windows is planning on charging a monthly fee to use their OS at that time.
By then, "Free: meaning the one time cost of learning to setup and use a new OS, is better than $15 a month just to use your computer."

kuja

August 22nd, 2007, 09:38 AM

Easy--their disappointed when they find out that "free" still has a cost associated with it. i.e. the learning curve and the price for research and setup. Don't worry, by the time windows Bistro comes out, I don't think there will be too many regrets. Windows is planning on charging a monthly fee to use their OS at that time.
By then, "Free: meaning the one time cost of learning to setup and use a new OS, is better than $15 a month just to use your computer."
On the bright side that should make it easier to convert new ubuntu users :)

ukripper

August 22nd, 2007, 03:38 PM

On the bright side that should make it easier to convert new ubuntu users :)

I agree, and probably to ask them to protest against this monopolising company.

mastery82

August 22nd, 2007, 04:32 PM

No pain no gain my friend!This is life,to achieve something and feel proud for your self you must work hard.And i bet you and me and anyone in this world the first time they were on a computer (windows) we were to frightened to press a button.So its not linux fault you gave up.Its you quiting easy.

Geeke

August 23rd, 2007, 06:24 AM

I am not I got alot of stuff working on my laptop and I am BACK! goodbye windows!

tyggna1

August 23rd, 2007, 11:34 PM

my feelings on Windows as a whole: I accepted it, but the more I learned about how it runs and the way it works, the less I liked it. I felt like I was in a business partnership that I couldn't get out of--and my partner was taking all my resources and leaving me with nothing but a "click to continue."

I came into Ubuntu at just the right release, because Edgy seems a little too much for me, and Feisty is just enough. I'm learning more about how computers work (and can work), and unlike with windows, the more I learn about it, the more excited I am to boot up and hear a few clicking noises.

"Click to continue" is fine, but like the hacker's manifesto states, "we want meat, when all you give us is milk! And what few scraps you do give us are pre-chewed and tasteless!" and those are words I can live by.

So, to you who say goodbye: It's alright, man. Milk before meat. No one says that you have to grow up in the computer world--it really is optional. But for those of us who respond to information and learning like a heroin-addict getting his fix, Ubuntu is perfect!

Please don't knock it on your way out--just give it a try later--things will get better. Who knows, maybe you'll need to get a fix later. :)

sstusick

August 23rd, 2007, 11:46 PM

I am not I got alot of stuff working on my laptop and I am BACK! goodbye windows!

Glad to hear you came back! :D

ntom-taylor

August 27th, 2007, 11:52 AM

Why not run ubuntu, and if you want windows apps the simply install vmware-server. Its free and very simple to setup, and if you want long term windows use, run it at full screen :)

GSF1200S

August 27th, 2007, 02:20 PM

Easy--their disappointed when they find out that "free" still has a cost associated with it. i.e. the learning curve and the price for research and setup. Don't worry, by the time windows Bistro comes out, I don't think there will be too many regrets. Windows is planning on charging a monthly fee to use their OS at that time.
By then, "Free: meaning the one time cost of learning to setup and use a new OS, is better than $15 a month just to use your computer."

Where did you hear this? I smell some bs there- they couldnt possibly be that stupid or greedy. Id like to see a link on this before I buy it, and im highly against windows!

maybeway36

August 27th, 2007, 02:39 PM

VirtualBox > VMWare because it's free

madsmaddad

August 27th, 2007, 02:55 PM

Actually I am using Ubuntu because it supports wireless. I have a 3COM USB wireless NIC with ZD1211 chipset, and Vista kept wanting to reinstall it, Fedora I spent months trying to get it running, and Ubuntu it ran 'out of the box'.

Installing programs is a relatively short learning curve (So far) and I only boot back to XP to run my scanner.
:)

jwhiteman

August 27th, 2007, 04:51 PM

):PWhere did you hear this? I smell some bs there- they couldnt possibly be that stupid or greedy. Id like to see a link on this before I buy it, and im highly against windows!

LINK: http://www.osweekly.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2615&Itemid=449

):P

por100pre1

August 27th, 2007, 10:31 PM

Thanks. Here's an update:

One month after leaving Linux:
1. Eclipse with RSE (a web dev program written in Java) doesn't freeze like it did in Ubuntu, have had no problems at all - can make a living again.
2. Can run firefox from default installation and view flash without having to use command line (time consumption).
3. Am able to share (read & write) to network drives, which I was unable to do in Ubuntu despite installing all recommended software and searching google and forums for answers
4. Still able to use (other than a free Operating system) loads of Open Source software (eclipse, gimp, openoffice, and much much more)
5. Until coming back to the forums today, didn't get any sardonic comments like this one posted on this thread a few pages back: "Maybe you should read some articles and actually use your brain to find out."

I think Ubuntu is great for people who don't need computers. They may be learning how to visit a website or send e-mail. And loads of computer users are like this.

I think Ubuntu is great for tinkering computer guys, who have the time to install dual boots so they can use two operating systems for fun.

Ubuntu is also great for those who are adamant against windows and are unemployed and have the time to spend, are so experienced because of past time to learn, or don't care if the computer can do what they need as long as they can get the OS for free.

And I respect Linux ideologically, of course, because I think Microsoft is ridiculous, they overcharge, and I think they have often proven to hold to unethical business practices. But they've got working software.

I wonder if a lot of the rabid ravings against windows about errors and such are from users who haven't used a Windows PC since win 3.1?

I put hours and hours into switching entirely to Ubuntu, searching and searching for information, searching and posting to the forums. The problem is that I do use the computer for my work, and need a functional computer every day. I'll hopefully be back in a few more distros.

For those who are waiting for Microsoft to tank, building software, web pages and operating systems is all about usability. If it isn't easy to use, you've failed. Ubuntu is bringing Linux far, far ahead in this regard, and it'll get there.

No flaming required, I agree that Ubuntu is great - just not quite there yet.

And, unlike Windows, Ubuntu doesn't take 7 years for an update. So I'll be back to try again.

There are people in their 70's using Linux, There are 3 year olds playing with it. There are many corporations using in their servers...

Let's face it, there are people who just don't want to learn, and need to use excuses.

GSF1200S

August 28th, 2007, 03:29 AM

):P

LINK: http://www.osweekly.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2615&Itemid=449

):P

Id like to know WHERE he got that information, but it does seem like a logical step for the greed within microsoft. What better way to ensure payment regaurdless of product quality or product development than to charge a montly fee. Any initiative towards change in any corporation is made solely for profit.. Thats good news then... hopefully that will bring more people to Linux, and probably Ubuntu. Still, assuming this speculation is true, and assuming microsoft actually has the balls to do it, I wouldnt expect to see more than a 10% increase in Linux usage, while I would expect a healtly jump on the Mac side of things. Regaurdless, the fact that Linux has gone from a cult OS with little usage value to a full fledged OS that TALKS about majority usage and full desktop compatibility is amazing. Just imagine 10-15 years from now.

It kind of sucks that KDE4 will be usable on Windows. I think a great deal of Linuxs prowess is due to the GUIs available and the features they have over Windows.. Taking the exclusivity away can only hurt Linux.

lisati

August 28th, 2007, 03:34 AM

I think it already is. Too bad you have to install it yourself... maybe that preinstallation thing will be "right up there" with Windows soon.

Ditto. Some things suit some people better than others.

dark_harmonics

August 28th, 2007, 06:36 AM

CongoJim

August 28th, 2007, 07:09 AM

For a diferant experience. I live in Kananga, DR Congo as a volunteer teacher. I have grown to hate windows simply because of the time and energy that I have to devote to repairing systems infected by Brontok and Chritina. The cybercafes see antivirus and think they're good to go, the concept of updating being foreign. I am installing, for free, Ubuntu but I charge 5 dollars if you want an antivirus (updates no charge).

After they use Ubuntu and get over the differences people here never ask to go back.

One other reason? Why on Earth did MS decide that you have to phone them to activate a reinstall? A thirty minute on hold would cost me 6 weeks pay (I do not kid). Not a chance I'm giving the phone company that much because MS needs to guard against illegal copies which frankly, are all over here.

gregfulkerson

August 28th, 2007, 10:11 AM

This is a thread that is a couple of years old obviously, because I find Ubuntu to be the easiest distro I have ever encountered. It does an outstanding job of supporting wireless and other hardware. I was a Linspire user (which is now based on ubuntu) for a long time and thought the warehouse was easy. But the add/remove program feature could not be any easier. Synaptic is great too.

Ubuntu and Linux are not windows and that is the whole point. But the transition is easier than going from Windows to iMac I think. Plus going to iMac will cost you thousands. No thanks!

Not everyone cares enough about their OS to put in the time it takes to learn it. For those who like a stable and secure system that does not have millions of bugs/viruses, Linux is a great choice.

Peace

prodsacnetworking

August 30th, 2007, 09:58 AM

Go with a Mac as a laptop...

you get the best of linux and windows.

sgt_urankar

August 30th, 2007, 10:20 AM

atrapine

August 30th, 2007, 10:40 AM

Thats the greatest thing about choice ;) Use what ever suites your needs.
For some people Windows is there and it works. For others The challenge of finding out what Makes things work is almost like an addiction.
I had a similar problem with a netgear Wg311V2 in SuSe. No matter what you did this card wouldn't work even NdisWrapper had Limited success. But Sinse People From the community have got the card working quite well with homebrew drivers lol. Wireless is still a bit raw as of yet in linux but it is making great strides.
Sorry you couldn't find a solution that was right for you.
Kindest regards @trapine.

BLTicklemonster

August 30th, 2007, 11:21 AM

I think its great that people are at least taking the time to come back and post their feelings on it. I totally understand what the windows users are talking about because i used to be a windows only user. On windows everything is made for that specific distribution which can improve on the ease of installation.

On linux, programmers face a more difficult task of keeping updated repos or making multiple packages for the flavors of linux and so some just give up and leave it to the user to compile. Alot of times third-party individuals will then keep repos to make it nice and simple for other users but then you need to worry about the security of it (well then again installing blindly on windows is not any more secure than doing it on linux).

On windows you just click the appropriately created exe file (ie one for win 2000/nt/xp or one for 95/98) and the program installs.

Ubuntu has taken great strides in keeping its GUI away from the command line, but its still dependant on it for most advanced tasks. I think that, as it moves forward, it will become more graphical and user friendly.

I personally dont mind a few commands here or there but I do understand that a GUI is supposed to be a Graphical user interface.

Before everybody jumps on my case, just remember that I am an Ubuntu convert :) You get what you work for and linux is just 10000 times better once you research and learn it.
I agree with you.

Also, IMHO, most people probably post their goodbyes hoping that what they say will be heard. I have a feeling that, for the most part, it's not being heard, or if it is, it's just taking time to get to everything.

I installed gutsy t4 day before yesterday. It was really nice up until I made the mistake of trusting the "system". With standard repos, a person ought to be able to install ANYTHING from synaptic with no fear of any problems. I'm sorry if this flies in the face of convention, but in my opinion anything other than that makes this a very non userfriendly os. I went to get a better nvidia driver (xorg called the fx5200 card an ati radeon for some reason, even though the driver listed said nvidia. I'll copy and paste for anyone doubting me) and used synaptic, and chose "nvidia new". Entered the command mentioned to activate the drivers, restarted the machine, and as usual, I was stuck having to dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg. Okay, bam, right there. That should not be remotely possible at any given time.

Yes, repos are just there, and synaptic is just a link to what is there, and blah blah blah. That is not a good enough answer. The official answer, in my opinion should be, "we at ubuntu are taking synaptic to the next level, where synaptic knows your system in detail, and will put a big red X next to anything that will keep you from being able to use your machine if you install it."

How will this come about? Well, those geniuses who brought us all this incredible wizardry can probably figure out how to make some thing like this work, right?

I mean, come on, you realize how many people give up on ubuntu because of stupid stuff like what happened to me? I swear, I came really close to just hanging it up and installing windows 98 out of sheer spite. But I used envy to get a good nvidia driver installed and all is well now.

But honestly, why did I have to bother?

Oh, I have no sound now because I did an upgrade. whoopee. I'll work on that later :)

(admittedly, this is gutsy, not ready for prime time, but the example I gave is standard for every release, so it is applicable to ubuntu in general)

measekite

August 30th, 2007, 12:48 PM

"Why do people feel the need to post this?"

Well, understand that he's actually doing everyone a favor by listing the reasons the product didn't work for him. Most people use Windows, so for Linux in any variety to have a shot at growth it has to appeal to a Windows-user's expectations. This guy took issue with the lack (or apparent lack) of support for wireless equipment and the installation procedure for additional software. If many other users are also turned off by these issues, it's something for the programming community to try to work on.

S.W.
I agree with what has been said as I too am a Windows user. I really want (K)Ubuntu to go main stream as I am looking into using it. The show stoppers are Printing, Vidio as well as other drivers. Until you can get a disk from nvidia (as an example) and drivers from Canon for their printers or Scanning drivers and software from Epson where you can either put a CD into the driver and follow the prompts or download the proper driver and type either setup or install and follow easy prompts Linux and the distros do not stand a chance of getting average Windows users to join.

I am a Windows programmmer and have been Tech Suppt in Windows and am having a difficult time in this area. I know that eventually I will solve these problems but at great expense in time.

There is also the issue of some great Windows programs (Photoshop, Quicken (not so great the best of the bunch), and Backup Retrospect that does point in time restores) that does not have a Linux version. I do know about Gimp but it is not as good as Photoshop and does not have a good builtin printing system that can produce as good a result.

Every time you do find a soilution it involves downloading and installing packages and dependencies and following archaic propellerhead scripts. This is what the next version of Ubuntu should address. That is what is needed to fix Mark Shuttleworth's Bug #1. Ubuntu will never achieve all the success it can without solving this Bug.

exoren22

August 30th, 2007, 02:58 PM

These little things that people cite as their reasons for not liking linux and going back to windows are the silly things that the developers have to realise and fix. It's not hard to get linux to work with every printer under the sun. I just had to enable one package that for some reason isn't enabled by default. Problem is, I have reinstalled since then and I can't for the life of my find this package again. It's annoying that the clipboard doesn't remember what I've copied when I close a window, or that I have to know every flag possible for configuration files just to get my taskbars to work the way I want them. I know that I can edit all of these files, and I like that I CAN edit these files manually, but I don't always WANT to. Sure, there are cool things I can do only in linux and it's faster and such, but only crazy people like us who can't help but tweak their boxes until they break don't really mind that these tools don't exist. But, with ubuntu getting more polished every released and windows getting less (and Mac OSX still evil!) we may have this functionality in October.

--edit-- in response to measekite's assertion that linux doesn't have the kind of gui installation of windows and uses archaic scripts, you as a programmer should love scripting, as it really saves on time and disk space as opposed to the clunky microsoft installers. You can make a gui for your scripts so that no one has to see it. That's the individual script writers' job, but personally I believe the real way to fix this is to train people not to wet themselves every time they see a black window with monospaced text in it. It's a very useful debugging tool.

txrambler

September 2nd, 2007, 08:18 AM

Ill end my thread with this last statement....

"Windows is like an old girlfriend....not someone you really want to be with but definitely gives a good bj."

LOL!

Best. Closing line. Ever!

MacUntu

September 3rd, 2007, 11:29 AM

Two main obstacles: Linux wasn't designed to be a desktop OS and nerds can't think like normal users. In addition there are too many core developers with different opinions on fundamentals - too many cooks spoil the broth.

I'm using Linux for five years now and I can fully understand every single user that returns to Windows after a one week or less trial of Linux.

User: "My WLAN isn't working."
Nerd: "What chipset does your WLAN module use?"
User: "WTF?"

Users don't just know nothing about their hardware, they in fact don't even WANT to know anything about their hardware. I don't want to have to know every single chip in my computer to have it working properly if there's another OS that serves me well. Users aren't interested in problems with vendors that don't release Linux drivers they'll simply refuse to use the OS.

To even consider a switch Linux must offer at least the same features at at least the same quality. Can't see that now, don't see it coming soon.

A long road to go. ;)

ukripper

September 3rd, 2007, 12:23 PM

mujalan

September 3rd, 2007, 12:57 PM

As a relatively new Linux and Ubuntu user I appreciate this thread and that people feel the freedom to say both what they like and what they don't like about Ubuntu. I know of another distro that (at least my impression is) one can get clobbered for saying too much negative about it.

That being said, I am very happy with Ubuntu after using Windows 25 yrs. I am now running Ubuntu on 4 of my computers and doing a very competent job. The fifth one is running PCLinuxOS, and that is another story. I wouldn't say perfect and sometimes yes it gives me a headache here or there. I think for a moment, maybe I should go back to Windows. Then I remember the time the local Windows guru worked all day on one of my Windows machines and still couldn't get it to work. There was another time when we had some problem up the works on 3 windows machines. Worked and worked to no avail. Finally found out that Microsoft was "working on" it and all we could do was wait for MS to fix it.

I am not a computer guru and sometimes I have to tax my brain on some problem but usually I can find a way to get Ubuntu to work. In short, I love it!

likemindead

September 3rd, 2007, 01:40 PM

I have two computers: (1) an HP Pavilion 522n desktop and (2) an Acer Aspire 3003LCi laptop.

The HP has been 100% Ubuntu for a couple of months now and it's awesome. I love it. Only issue is the CD-RW drive (a crappy MITSUMI CR-48X9TE) doesn't work. But the LITEON DVD-ROM LTD-163 is working fine. I just can't burn anything right now.

My Acer, on the other hand, has been a complete catastrophe. Terrible hardware. I don't blame Ubuntu a bit, but unfortunately I did have to reformat and reinstall XP Pro. (Ew... I feel dirty.) Hopefully I can sell it for a few bucks and get a more compatible laptop.

Don't worry Ubuntu, I'm still with you! And all of you who make this community great--THANK YOU! :)

Alex Broadbent

September 3rd, 2007, 04:05 PM

I'm using Linux for five years now and I can fully understand every single user that returns to Windows after a one week or less trial of Linux.

User: "My WLAN isn't working."
Nerd: "What chipset does your WLAN module use?"
User: "WTF?"

Users don't just know nothing about their hardware, they in fact don't even WANT to know anything about their hardware.

Yes exactly. Likewise, most drivers don't want to have to learn all the components of their car. Of course there are enthusiasts who love that stuff, but you would never expect to see DIY kit cars taking a serious share of the auto market (even if they were free, like Linux).

Returning to OSs, the issue is clouded by the fact that many techies seem to feel that ordinary folk know irresponsibly little about computer use (just as mechanics might roll their eyes at someone who couldn't change a wheel on a car). There's probably some truth in this; and it's probably due to the fact that the technology is still rather newer than car technology, so people are still catching up.

But even if people ought to know a bit more about computers, the effort needed to install Linux is still well beyond that (despite the great people in this forum, and acknowledging that it's partly the driver manufacturers' faults). I handed in a PhD in July, and have been installing Ubuntu since then. A PhD doesn't necessarily mean I'm smart but having just handed in probably does mean I have more idle time, pig-headed persistence and tech resources than most (I'm no techie but I have many friends who are experienced Linux users). Despite all that I only got my wireless working last week (thanks to this forum and some tech friends), and even now, I have to go -
ifdown wlan1
ifup wlan1
- since I have to do this every five minutes or so, and this post turned out longer than intended.

And the pity of it is - once it's working, it's great! Fast, easy to use, secure, fun, things to learn, etc etc... If these wireless card/suspend/video driver/etc issues were resolved, user numbers would explode. Pre-installation the key?

jso2897

September 3rd, 2007, 05:54 PM

I have mixed feelings when I read these posts. I can sympathize with a person just wanting to USE a technology, without having to know, in intimate detail, how it works. For example, I have no idea how my television works. I just want to turn it on and see Ric Romero explaining that recent surveys have shown that most people don't want to know how their technology works. On the other hand, I'm a bit dumbfounded with how difficult and frustrating some people seem to find it.
I am not exactly a whiz kid. I'm 57 yrs. old, only got my first PC 9 years ago, and only started using Linux a year ago - and Ive had no format technical training. Beyond that, I only have a high school education, and, having done a lot of street-fighting in my youth, have a considerable amount of brain damage to go with my lumpy nose and missing teeth. Also, my feet stink, I don't love Jesus, and the trailer I live in only has a low-speed internet connection.
Yet with all these things stacked against me, I have found the learning curve with Ubuntu considerably less difficult and frustrating than learning to use Windows was. It isn't as if Windows or OS don't take time to learn to use well - they do. Maybe it is that, having already spent time and sweat blood learning to use Windows, people feel "Oh,no! I'm not putting myself through THIS again!"
Dang it, people! It's just not that hard! If it was, I couldn't do it.
And remember - when you succeed, you will be getting a SUPERIOR result, and at a cost of FREE.
Trading windows in for Linux is not pain free, but you aren't just trading a headache for an upset stomach. It's more like trading a shotgun wound for a mild heat rash. Anyway, that's my two cents, and I'll STFU now.

BLTicklemonster

September 3rd, 2007, 11:12 PM

I am not exactly a whiz kid. I'm 57 yrs. old, only got my first PC 9 years ago, and only started using Linux a year ago - and Ive had no format technical training. Beyond that, I only have a high school education, and, having done a lot of street-fighting in my youth, have a considerable amount of brain damage to go with my lumpy nose and missing teeth. Also, my feet stink, I don't love Jesus, and the trailer I live in only has a low-speed internet connection.

!!!! Mom?

ukripper

September 4th, 2007, 05:53 AM

MacUntu

September 4th, 2007, 08:51 AM

Linux can't be blamed for hardware manufacturer's ignorance.
I'm not talking about blaming someone or something. Facts count, reasons why this and that doesn't work are non of consumers interests.

And imho it's not about ignorance but about $$ - developing drivers for a fringe group just isn't economic.

Linux for the masses will only work if
a. ppl start using Linux with all it's flaws to give manufactures a reason to release drivers or
b. the main manufactures start releasing drivers and hope that ppl will switch.

If you ask me, both is not very likely to happen.

jdunn

September 12th, 2007, 04:45 AM

Sorry guys and gals, I'm gave it a shot and I;m going to have to say good bye to Linux and Ubuntu. Without wireless support and an easy way to install programs, this is something that I'm not going to get. I'm a windows user and that's all there is to it.

I tried, but it just isn't going to work.

I sympathize with this guy regarding the wireless support. However, it is not the fault of Linux. It is the fault of the hardware manufacturers who do not publish hardware specs and only develop drivers for MS Windows.

This guy is totally wrong about software installation. With Adept on Kubuntu, software installation from the repositories is faster and easier than any program installation on MS Windows.

Again, why did this guy bother to announce he's leaving?

MerlinX420

September 12th, 2007, 08:35 PM

Why ...Don't leave... it can work. Why beg windows will drive you back to Linux eventually.

cmarlow84

September 12th, 2007, 11:04 PM

First time Linux user expects everything to work out the box without any effort whatsoever. It really gets on my **** when people throw in the towel like this. Computers where never meant to be this easy.

..... I disagree with you.... I mean I just got done booting back into windows becuase I coudlnt get voice to work in Yahoo chat or in sound recorder.. I use voice everyday for talking to friends in stuff

So for now.... I guess I am bound to windows unless there is opions :(

~ Christopher ~

sstusick

September 12th, 2007, 11:33 PM

I've left Linux a few times (not Ubuntu) but was determined to switch to Linux for the past few years...and now thanks to Ubuntu, I have done just that :-D

karellen

September 13th, 2007, 02:09 AM

Again, why did this guy bother to announce he's leaving?
because it's the Bye, Ubuntu thread ;)
Computers where never meant to be this easy.
when? in the sixties?
I'm not talking about blaming someone or something. Facts count, reasons why this and that doesn't work are non of consumers interests.

And imho it's not about ignorance but about $$ - developing drivers for a fringe group just isn't economic.

Linux for the masses will only work if
a. ppl start using Linux with all it's flaws to give manufactures a reason to release drivers or
b. the main manufactures start releasing drivers and hope that ppl will switch.

If you ask me, both is not very likely to happen.
I second this. it doesn't matter why, the things are the way they are and the common person can't do much to change the current situation...

jpl888

September 13th, 2007, 06:44 PM

I'm glad to see other distros have these "I'm not using <insert your distro here> because" or the "<insert your distro> sucks" threads.

To me it is the sign of a healthy community, every distro should have several.

But what I don't like is the unwillingness to learn.

At this stage I have been using Linux in one form or another for 8 years. I am self-employed and my work is at least 50 percent based on it (all the servers I install are Gentoo Linux). If I had given up at the first hurdle I would have never understood why free as in open and transparent software is so important, how Linux is like a gymnast compared to Windows when it comes to flexibility and how to get one machine to do everything (server wise) that a small business needs.

In a way I can understand the I just want it to work and I don't want to know the details slant, but hey, get the news people the details are important! If you're the kind of person who just wants everything to work and don't care what it does, how it does it or how many people, it rips off, upsets, and generally denigrates then you may as well dig a big hole make a nice human sized wooden match box and stick yourself in it!

Open Source is about people who care, that is what I love about Linux and the software surrounding it, I hope it never changes.

Linux zealot over and out.

loki525

September 13th, 2007, 07:45 PM

I've tried a number of distros and Ubuntu seems to be the best of the lot if for no other reason that it recognized my wifi card. However, I can't install software packages, it won't recognize my DVDs and none of the media players or other tools begin to come close to what's on my Macbook. Ubuntu, like most other distros is, for the average user, a sideshow, a toy. Sorry folks. It's not ready for prime time and while it's fun to play with I can sympathize with those who bag it because I've done it myself with a number of versions. If you want a stable, easy to use Windows alternative, your choice is Apple.

sstusick

September 13th, 2007, 07:49 PM

Sounds like a pebcak issue to me.

tyggna1

September 13th, 2007, 08:27 PM

scru

September 13th, 2007, 08:45 PM

I really try you guys should stop bashing those who quit on Linux and calling them "unwilling to learn". You seem to be forgetting, that spending your first night on Linux can be quite a hellish experience.

Not everybody can take that.

Not everybody *wants* to edit their xorg.conf file just to get their correct resolution.

Not everybody *wants* to have to type commands to do trivial things.

Not everybody *knows* that synaptic and automatix are even options..really.

Not everybody *wants* to have to resort to google to find out how to use their computer. (that one was a bit harsh, but i've had to do it quite a few times)

Don't bash the guy because he had two very legitimate problems, just because he never really knew what to do next. I say anyone who even put a copy of Linux on their machine has already displayed a willingness-to-learn in a sense.

Commend him for his bravery. Invite him back in a year, when things will be much better, and his problems will perhaps, have disappeared,

Point him in the right direction. Some said the Ubuntu devs don't look here for ways to improve their product (I hope that's not true, because this forum would be one of the first places i looked, after all, it's where people come to say what won them--what to keep--or what scared them away--what to ditch), so tell him kindly where to go.

Many may not agree with this, but the new guys *do* need hand holding. It's not easy (i say so being a new guy myself). And if you're not prepared to do that, at least drop the arrogrance--that's only salt for the wound.

And *please* stop this nonsense about those who walk out on Linux being unwilling to learn. It's as simple as this, people try products. They try different ones and look for qualities that suit them.

If you're willing to accept some of Linux's fault (note I said Linux and not Ubuntu), perhaps you should say "unwillingness to waste time on trivial things"

Lacrimstein

September 13th, 2007, 08:49 PM

I completely agree =D>

hiloguy

September 13th, 2007, 10:21 PM

Except that Ubuntu developers don't haunt the Absolute Beginner Talk forums to see what they should be improving on. And, frankly, the indirect "suggestions" in the original post didn't really suggest anything specific or anything the Ubuntu developers can help.

A lot of new Ubuntu users want to install stuff outside the repositories, but I wouldn't be surprised if this new user thought it all had to be .tar.gz instead of Synaptic.

Maybe the developers should drop in on the Beginner's forum now and then. If there is any enthusiasm-at-large about getting lots of people up and running with Ubuntu, it just has to be easier than it is to do the basics. I'm a newbie and I'm up and running now on my Linux-only laptop, but it was a real stretch getting it that way, mostly the wireless thing.

How hard would it be to have Ubuntu come with exactly the right drivers and install sequence for say, half a dozen popular wifi cards. Then tell everyone THESE are the cards you need and they WILL WORK. Seems a lot simpler than dealing with a system that tries to accommodate every card ever made.

It's sad to read all the posts from people who quit simply because it is such a mindwarp getting wireless. I've got a number of friends who have been watching how I like Linux and they say they'll switch if I do it completely. Well, I've done it and I like it fine, but they were tuned in during the many hours it took to get it going.

At least Dell ships new Ubuntu machines now. No setup/config issues there! And I noticed PC Magazine is running Linux/Ubuntu articles now.

It's all good.

Anybody listening out there? :)

karellen

September 14th, 2007, 02:14 AM

seems to me that the Linux users who call the ones who leave (for now) "unwilling to learn", "windows brainwashed" (and others) forget one simple and fundamental thing: an OS is a tool, not something to worship/be devoted to/live for. if that tools doesn't satisfies your needs, you move on to the tool that does. it has nothing to do with morality, intelligence, willingness to learn, ideology, philosophy or quantum physics. mixing things that have nothing in common and says nothing relevant about somebody results in a huge ******** of ideas, misconceptions and hasty and superficial judgments

vincentvee

September 14th, 2007, 03:36 AM

Sorry but why do people feel the need to announce this?

it just a troll thing

vincentvee

September 14th, 2007, 03:41 AM

lol
i had the same problem with my new dell, installed wireless, after several attempts, then when i got it running, it broke
anyway, turns out all the howto's i found were wrong, for me at least, have a look at this:
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=391961
which goes against probably every other post i read, but it worked, and is still working, with the driver that everyone told me to blacklist
p.s. sorry if there are any typo's but it is hard typing with a one year old on your knee controlling the mouse
lol

Maybe the developers should drop in on the Beginner's forum now and then. If there is any enthusiasm-at-large about getting lots of people up and running with Ubuntu, it just has to be easier than it is to do the basics. I'm a newbie and I'm up and running now on my Linux-only laptop, but it was a real stretch getting it that way, mostly the wireless thing.

How hard would it be to have Ubuntu come with exactly the right drivers and install sequence for say, half a dozen popular wifi cards. Then tell everyone THESE are the cards you need and they WILL WORK. Seems a lot simpler than dealing with a system that tries to accommodate every card ever made.

It's sad to read all the posts from people who quit simply because it is such a mindwarp getting wireless. I've got a number of friends who have been watching how I like Linux and they say they'll switch if I do it completely. Well, I've done it and I like it fine, but they were tuned in during the many hours it took to get it going.

At least Dell ships new Ubuntu machines now. No setup/config issues there! And I noticed PC Magazine is running Linux/Ubuntu articles now.

It's all good.

Anybody listening out there? :)

the.unclean.cpp

September 14th, 2007, 03:54 AM

I'm replying to the "Bye, Ubuntu" thread only to say "Hello!".

The first distro I had was Fedora(almost 2 years ago). I chose Fedora because it has a GUI Install. I found my old PC overwhelmed by the multitude of packages that come with Fedora, and I didn't need most of them. I sticked a while with Fedora to learn the GUI of Gnome. Unfortunately the computer was kind of slow and the learning curve seemed even harder. So after a while, yeah...I kind of quit.

Then, last summer I had the beta version of Vista installed on my PC. It didn't last a week! It was then when I decided that I must leave M$ and Windows behind and switch to Linux. I was decided that, no matter how much time it takes, I'll find the right distro for me. But then, I understood that it's not so important to have the right distro. Linux will always work like Linux is supposed to. You just have to know how to handle it. And I discovered Ubuntu. I saw this forum and I really loved the community. "I can be part of it too!", I was thinking. So I downloaded Ubuntu and start asking questions or try to handle problems myself. I wasn't thinking "Oh my God, another glitch!" no more. I was thinking like "Oh, cool, I bet I can solve this too!".

So with that will to learn, I ended up to this present day to use Ubuntu about 80% of the time. I bet I'll use it 95% when the school starts and I'll have to program.

I think I can now say my official, "Hello Ubuntu and Thank you for the experience that you gave me!"

And I say Hello to you guys and thanks for helping me in the past. I'll help myself newcomers in the community if I can.

karellen

September 14th, 2007, 04:06 AM

it just a troll thing

or maybe because it's just important to show why people quit using Linux
or maybe because the thread is called "Bye Ubuntu"
....think of it

Kowalski_GT-R

September 14th, 2007, 04:17 AM

karellen

September 14th, 2007, 04:27 AM

I completely agree with that point of view.
bang on regarding the possible issues of a newcomer (which were, and are, also mine)
bang on regarding the fact that Ubuntu is a product, and people makes choices
bang on regarding the "invite him back in a year" thing:

I, for one, can't wait for Gutsy to come and iron out some fault-ish aspects of my Ubuntu experience.

I'm waiting for gutsy too...:)

tech2gecko

September 14th, 2007, 11:58 AM

My what a long list of replies.
I too am disapointed and frustratred with the wireless and printer configurations for my Acer laptop. While I did have the same issues issues, I was better able to get it all working with PCLinux2007 OS and their forum support. Will definitly try again with gutsy, but this is gettting tiresome.

leetrefz

September 15th, 2007, 03:56 AM

Maybe it's been mentioned a few times somewhere in the last 800 posts, but

Most people don't have the time to fiddle with their OS even if for some reason they wanted to. The OS is a means to our business or entertainment ends.

The people who treat their OS as entertainment in itself are in the minority.

An OS should work as easily, foolproofedly, and efficiently as possible. I think developers would benefit from some background in design or engineering. Sometimes with Linux it seems like they develop software without considering the market beyond their fellow programmers.

I think there should be a gui program that puts every possible command line, uh, command in mouse-click format with a very clear explanation for that persecuted majority who just want to get things done and have wider goals to fill their time than figuring stuff out that if well designed wouldn't need figuring out.

look at metro systems, hi-way signs etc. They are all designed for people, as simple and fool proof as possible. "Linux for people" should, I think, hold a similar principle.

Personally I find Xubuntu to be more functional than windows, but often only so after initial tweaking. My only point is that it needs to go on improving towards foolproofedness perfection. I am against any idea that Linux must be more labour intensive and may only cater to a market of technicians and people with too much free time. Personally, I'd rather be making money or practicing for procreation than working out code for uh, fun.

Cannaregio

September 15th, 2007, 03:41 PM

I fail to understand the problem this thread is about.

Half the fun with Linux is to tweak your box for maximal performance, to discover the hidden workings under the hood, and to learn. But that's my opinion, and I can understand that many want something that 'just works', without fidddling with it (even if they don't know what they are losing: all those that believe that using the terminal instead of a GUI is 'passé' are in for a rude awakening the day they will realize the galactic power terminal commands give you).

But for these people that do not want to fiddle, Ubuntu already came a long way. I have put it on my parents box, and they are happy with it (My mom: 'Woah, windows runs better now!'). Pace vobiscum.

And anyone can manage it alone, despite what the starter of this thread claims, no needs of a geek's helping hand. Here is my example: my sister has installed Ubuntu without my help. I confess I was impressed.
I just gave her a cd with feisty, she did everything else alone, she never rang me up once during the installation.
And she's happy with it out of the box: on a normal, average toshiba, everything worked first time. Mind you she's exactly your average user that wants things done: email, writing, music, browsing. Mind you, she still has a dual boot with vista. But she told me that she has used windows only sporadically during the last weeks. She's hooked on linux.

The simple fact that she can now browse around without such a big need for overhead antivirii and firewalls, and without all the popping up crap à la windoze, and without that Microsoft explorer turtle; has convinced her to stick with ubuntu more and more.

So I fail to understand the problem this thread is about.

aysiu

September 15th, 2007, 03:48 PM

The problem, Cannaregio, is that most of the people who sign up on forums to complain about Ubuntu are not "average users." They want Foobar, AutoCAD, and a bunch of other specialized Windows programs instead of normal email, music, web browsing.

I'm amazed when I hear people complain about there being no Linux equivalent for some obscure program I've never heard of. Even though Foobar seems to be quite popular among ex-Windows users here, I'd never even heard of it until I began using Ubuntu. I hear people here often complain that Ubuntu doesn't come with a good BitTorrent client. Well, Windows doesn't come with a BitTorrent client at all! Once again, I'd never even used torrents until I started using Ubuntu. And I don't see what's wrong the default. The only times I've used BitTorrent were to download Ubuntu .iso files or to get albums off Jamendo. Both situations involve just clicking on the .torrent file and Ubuntu does the rest.

Ubuntu has a lot of good sensible defaults for basic user needs. Basic users, unfortunately, are not the most vocal bunch on a forum for Ubuntu. The most vocal bunch are frustrated Windows users who consider themselves "experts" in some respect and then imagine that if geniuses like themselves can't figure out Ubuntu, then how could the "average user" possibly do it. Such humility.

Like Windows and Mac OS X, Ubuntu is not for everybody. A little honest self-reflection will save you a lot of misery migrating over to Ubuntu.

sstusick

September 15th, 2007, 04:19 PM

http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid452319854?bctid=1181623517

How many people have proved this guy wrong?

Cannaregio

September 15th, 2007, 04:25 PM

Linux for the masses will only work if
a. ppl start using Linux with all it's flaws to give manufactures a reason to release drivers or
b. the main manufactures start releasing drivers and hope that ppl will switch.

If you ask me, both is not very likely to happen.

In fact I would contradict you and say, instead, that your hypothese "a" is jolly well working now... thanks Ubuntu :)

julian67

September 15th, 2007, 04:27 PM

It's kind of true....I used to miss foobar until i noticed my music sounds just the same in audacious...or totem...or rhythmbox....or amarok or ogg123. foobar is very capable but is at least as much about the geek control freak joy of manipulating files as it is about hearing your favourite sounds. And Linux has that fight well and truly won with bash, perl, python scripts etc. I think the users who struggle most with Ubuntu (or free desktops in general) are the ones who learned some very specialised gui windows-only applications in one or two narrow fields. It's distressing when you realise much of your "knowledge" about computers is actually just relevant to 5 bits of closed software...which are likely warez anyway...

elvis

September 15th, 2007, 06:18 PM

http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid452319854?bctid=1181623517

How many people have proved this guy wrong?

Long term Windows user trials Linux for 1 week and makes final conclusions.

I've seen it all before. People assume that Linux distros are "frustrating" simply because they don't act like Windows does. People assume that 10+ years of using MS Windows desktops means you should be able to hop on any other OS and use it seamlessly without the need for migration training or getting used to a new and different system.

I've been using Linux for 10 years now, and still learn something new every day.

My conclusion is that anyone who tests something for less than 6 months and makes "final conclusions" about it isn't worth listening to. If you're not willing to give something a fair and honest go, and take the time to learn how to operate it, then you may as well not bother giving an opinion on the matter.

As a young fella I didn't learn how to drive a car in 1 week, but I sure as hell didn't go around telling the world that after 1 week of driving lessons all cars were frustrating and not worth your time compared to nice, easy to use bicycles which I'd been using for the 15+ years prior.

cynical_remarks

September 16th, 2007, 07:07 PM

Except that Ubuntu developers don't haunt the Absolute Beginner Talk forums to see what they should be improving on...

:shock: That would be a good place to start, wouldn't it? You know, like helping the new kids on the block (like me) starting to walk instead of urging us to compete in the 100m at the Olympics. :mrgreen:

Mike

julian67

September 16th, 2007, 07:22 PM

:shock: That would be a good place to start, wouldn't it? You know, like helping the new kids on the block (like me) starting to walk instead of urging us to compete in the 100m at the Olympics. :mrgreen:

Mike

That's what the community is for. The community provides the help. It would be dumb to have Ubuntu developers spend their time explaining stuff like how to install beryl, how to enable playback of encrypted dvd, how to find cool theme etc etc. Developers are a part of the community but they have a different role than regular community members.

cynical_remarks

September 16th, 2007, 07:39 PM

That's what the community is for. The community provides the help. It would be dumb to have Ubuntu developers spend their time explaining stuff like how to install beryl, how to enable playback of encrypted dvd, how to find cool theme etc etc. Developers are a part of the community but they have a different role than regular community members.

I agree with you. Maybe I have not put it in the right words (not a native English speaker).

What I meant is that the Ubuntu developers maybe should address (and not troubleshoot) the issues that beginners have, so that the switch for more not-tech-savy-users becomes easier in the first place? You know, lower the entry barriers :mrgreen:

Mike

mrojas73

September 16th, 2007, 09:20 PM

Windows is only easy because that's all you know and I am sure you have been using it for a long time. I am and IT guy, work with Wincrops all day long and I can't wait to come home to use my fresh and exciting OS. My home PCs will never have Wds installed, every time I buy a laptop, the first thing I do is reformat the HD and install Ubuntu.

julian67

September 17th, 2007, 04:36 AM

I agree with you. Maybe I have not put it in the right words (not a native English speaker).

What I meant is that the Ubuntu developers maybe should address (and not troubleshoot) the issues that beginners have, so that the switch for more not-tech-savy-users becomes easier in the first place? You know, lower the entry barriers :mrgreen:

Mike

If you installed pretty much any distro from a few years ago and any of the more traditional ones now (like Slackware, Arch or one of the BSDs) then you'd see that this is exactly what is being accomplished by Ubuntu, and also a few other distros out there. If you installed Windows 2000 or XP on a modern PC that needed a lot of drivers and dedicated applications to run the hardware you would really appreciate how easy it actually is to get up and running with Ubuntu for almost everybody. Unless you have a real showstopping hardware problem on install then it's about as easy as an OS install has ever been.

OzzyFrank

September 17th, 2007, 07:56 AM

Yeah, I had all sorts of issues trying to learn Linux and Ubuntu, and it nearly drove me nuts. I even lied to myself that this never happened with Windows, and that I never really had to spend all those hours upon hours of learning how to use it, then those weeks of sleepless nights fixing errors and trying to get back to a working desktop... just to taunt myself further.

So I had the obvious choice of just giving up or the illogical choice of pressing ahead. For some reason I chose the latter (maybe those memories of living hell in Windows came drifting back), and now have come to realise it was actually worth it. Now, it's just so much easier and versatile than Windows XP in many ways, and infinitely easier to use than Vista (with heaps more hardware support than that piece of crud has). What turned out to be a bit of (almost) harmless geeky fun to expand my grey matter and finally play with Linux has resulted in Windows being used for just a few apps every couple of days.

So, each to their own, and sorry it didn't work out for you, but since there ain't no convincing you, all I can say is: Bye!

Club17

September 19th, 2007, 12:44 PM

Ok, bye. But, I hate to run slow computer with 'x' antivirus and 'y' firwall on Windows system. This is the only reason to change to Linux. Maybe, you can check some tools to run your win appls. on Ubuntu. :)

indiolush

September 19th, 2007, 03:08 PM

Everything worth doing takes time and effort, windows is easy to install and easy to use. Kind of like having your car fixed by a mechanic, you can still drive but you have no idea why! Taking the time to learn Linux was very liberating for me. I wish people would really give it time and not put Linux on the shelf for good just becuase they dont readily understand it. Well that's my two cents!

ViCyniC

September 19th, 2007, 09:16 PM

bsalt

September 20th, 2007, 12:01 AM

If I don't find a way to make my M-Audio Revolution digital out work soon I might leave Ubuntu as well. Back in the Windows world I have my foobar2k + external DAC waiting for me to enjoy musical bliss. I'm currently not feeling blissful from using Ubuntu because I can't get the damn sound to work, but so far I'm taking it like a trooper.

But not for long.

I understand your trouble. I was using Ubuntu on my laptop for audio recording with this external recording mixer I have, but it was too much trouble to get it to just work, because the software it was designed for (Cubasis) was a Windows app, with Windows drivers, and DirectX implementation.

I decided to only use that board with my Windows XP desktop, and still keep Ubuntu on my laptop, but just use it for basic web/homework/office needs. So my world is somewhat happy.

For all those who say Ubuntu is the only way to go, live free or die poor, there's a problem - most app's that are specific to a certain need are written for Windows. Why? Because Windows (still) is the most used operating system. I work in IT Consulting, and we work with Windows. Businesses work with it, and it has so many uses for them. Apple doesn't have a real server package, and Linux does, but it doesn't have the compatibility that Windows offers. Ubuntu is great and I'll use it on my personal laptop, but it isn't prime for business use or specific use (like using M-Audio recording hardware). Do I hate Ubuntu? No! I love it. I write blogs about it and its greatness, but as long as Windows is the most supported OS for THOSE specific tasks, I'll stick with it for those.

Not all great software should be free, either. People have to make a living somehow and I plan on getting married and having kids someday. If everything I do is free and I don't have some sort of paycheck, I'm in trouble. I heard Leo Laporte had a caller who asked why their show wasn't broadcasted on the internet live and without ads, and he said because they coudln't afford to keep it free and ad-free. (And he rants and raves about having to pay people money for software and stuff). Point? Not everything can be free. If Ubuntu wasn't free and had a small price of, let's say $50, it would still be great software, and it might become better because of a monetary incentive. Windows is a great piece of software, let's just face it. It is attacked like crap and a little overpriced, but it's still great. Why? Because they can afford the time for the money.

Ok. I'm off my soapbox.

BLTicklemonster

September 20th, 2007, 01:04 AM

I finally got fed up with the "there was an error creating the child process for this terminal" message I keep getting when I boot my machine to feisty. I have tried for months to find a fix for it, but to no avail.

So tonight, I too said GOODBYE TO UBUNTU!

Man it felt good to wipe that troublesome mother out and format it to fat 32. No more messed up Ubuntu crap on that hard drive buddy. Nu Uh. I'll use it for storage and keep using Gutsy on this hard drive! Woo hoo!!! Kinda messed you up for a second there, huh? :)

julian67

September 20th, 2007, 03:36 AM

dontpannic

September 20th, 2007, 08:30 AM

I can see what you are trying to say but there is no straying away from the fact that many people will need to go back to Windows at some point. PDA's require Windows to sync, and many if not most hardware devices only come with Windows drivers. I spent ages trying to get a simple webcam working in Ubuntu, and in the end found out that it wasn't supported. The RALINK RT2500 wireless chipset (which is a while old now - there's been around 3 Ubuntu releases since then) still doesn't work, and the amount of coding you usually have to do to get Beryl working is untrue. Then there's the dual monitor functions, Usually its the simple case of going into the Display options, ticking a box which says "Extend my desktop onto this monitor" and hitting OK, whereas to get mine working it was editing xorg.conf adding all sorts of lines, no thats not quite right, changing lines, restarting X so many times then finally it works.

You can sing till you're blue in the face that Ubuntu is better than windows. The fact is it is easier, for people with Linux experience.

I do use Ubuntu, don't get me wrong. The effects with Beryl are too cool and the stability (can be) awesome, but it still crashes, takes a long time to load stuff which Windows would do in half the time, and can be a bitch to set up. My system is over a year old now. The Creative Audigy2 sound card I have is around 2 years old now, and proper 5.1 surround still doesn't work, neither do many of the outputs.

If drivers were easier to install and more windows software was ported over to Linux (and wine supporting DirectX to the extent that games work as well as they would in Windows (dream on)).

My latest turmoil is also a good representation of how "unfinished" Linux feels.

On my old Windows Server 2003 box, I could go into network connections, accept incoming connections, dial in from outside and access network resources and the home internet from anywhere. Linux? sudo apt-get install pptpd, then configure it (correctly) and it doesn't give me the option ANYWHERE to change the default gateway for pptp clients!? I mean how hard can it be?

I love Ubuntu, I like Windows. It would be better when Ubuntu is finished, hear what I'm saying?

Nick

buzzmandt

September 20th, 2007, 08:36 AM

(and wine supporting DirectX to the extent that games work as well as they would in Windows (dream on)).
"I have a dream".....
just a side note to mention that wine isn't even completed yet, it is still basically in beta and improving quickly. For it not to be an emulator but a compatibility layer built from scratch and backward engineered without being able to view any of the code they are trying to simulate it's very impressive.

Midwest-Linux

September 20th, 2007, 08:40 AM

I use Ubuntu 7.04 for PPC for my Mac machines. But for the PC based machines, its been Freespire 2.0 and Linux Mint Cassandra. In fact Linux Mint Cassandra should have been called Ubuntu 7.08.

BLTicklemonster

September 20th, 2007, 10:47 AM

A huge step forward:

The newest gutsy upgrade will bring up a failsafe video setup if the upgrade messes up your video drivers (okay, it doesn't mess them up, but you know what I mean) so that you are no longer locked out of X, but can get to your desktop and see what is going on, and fix your problem.

The totally best fix I've seen so far.

Midwest-Linux

September 20th, 2007, 11:17 AM

HimK12

September 22nd, 2007, 06:11 PM

SO.... I heard some good things about ubuntu, so I figured I'll give it a shot. I've had it for abt a week now, and there are just so many problems, with no solution to it..that its just not worth my time and effort.

1) When I installed ubuntu, i had trouble booting into vista. This bugged me a lot till I figured out partition and boot orders and editing grub. Anyways, this is fixed now...I can boot into vista and ubuntu.

2) I cannot get ANYdesktop effect to work...and I've spent close to 15-20 hours just looking for answer online and editing all kinds of system files...and it jsut doesnt want to work. And honestly, the desktop effects was what attracted me to ubuntu.

3) I lock my screen everytime I go away, and then when I come back I and unlock it, I want my downloads to be still on, my webpages and documents where I lef tthem...and it is. But when I start to type anything, say linux.... I get lllllllllliiiiiinnnnnuuuuxxxxx...and then I hgave to restart my computer.WHY? WHY?

4) If I am lucky and the keyboard is not throwing up, my system freezes whenever it wants...oh and what's the linux equivalent of ctrl-alt-del....who knows?

Admitted...there are some cool softwares on ubuntu that aren't there on windows, but what the hell...I'll just pirate the equivalent windows stuff. I am now done with ubuntu...going back to windows.

MY machine - HP Intel Pentium 4 3.06 Ghz, 1 GB ram, ATI RADEON X200 graphics card.

kish

September 22nd, 2007, 06:15 PM

you are givinig up linux for petty issues like these?

Stick with it a for a bit and have some patience
put your mind upto it.

we deserve better than closed source comfort.

mivo

September 22nd, 2007, 06:20 PM

It is true that Linux in general may require a bit more fiddling with stuff and has a higher learning curve. There is also a problem with hardware support sometimes, though that is not necessarily the fault of Linux. Vista does not play nicely with other operating systems. You could try out other distros, to, just to see whether the problems are specific to Ubuntu. There have been positive posts about PCLinuxOS and Puppy Linux lately. (I have not tried either -- Kubuntu worked out of the box for me)

It's okay if you want to just give up. I can understand that sometimes frustration just gets too much. If you want to stick to it, though, or come back later, play some with Live CDs. That will at least give you a risk-free way of seeing whether your hardware is supported.

little dave

September 22nd, 2007, 06:27 PM

mivo

September 22nd, 2007, 06:37 PM

I have an ATI card and no such problems, unless "anydesktop effect" meant something specific and not "any desktop effect". (X700pro)

JESSU

September 22nd, 2007, 06:44 PM

4) If I am lucky and the keyboard is not throwing up, my system freezes whenever it wants...oh and what's the linux equivalent of ctrl-alt-del....who knows?

Did you try this?
This is how to make CTRL+ALT+DELETE open up the gnome-system-monitor:

In a Terminal type:
gconftool-2 -t str --set /apps/metacity/global_keybindings/run_command_9 "<Control><Alt>Delete"
Then:
gconftool-2 -t str --set /apps/metacity/keybinding_commands/command_9 "gnome-system-monitor"

HimK12

September 22nd, 2007, 06:47 PM

I have an ATI card and no such problems, unless "anydesktop effect" meant something specific and not "any desktop effect". (X700pro)

I meant any desktop effect. No wobbly windows, no 3d cube, no animation even in maximizing or minimizing. I got better effects on vista.

little dave

September 22nd, 2007, 06:55 PM

I meant any desktop effect. No wobbly windows, no 3d cube, no animation even in maximizing or minimizing. I got better effects on vista.

As I said it's Ati.

newbemac

September 22nd, 2007, 07:57 PM

Sorry you feel that way about linux. I installed UBUNTU it in my toshiba satellite laptop
A85-s107 about 9 months ago and have had ZERO issues of any kind. It just works.

I have a second windows XP desk top system but find it gathering dust most of the time. I do not duel boot. one dedicated windows system and 1 dedicated UBUNTU system.
Hang in there a little longer.
newbemac

newbemac

September 22nd, 2007, 08:00 PM

I love the CTRL ALT DELETE, sortcut.

syborfical

September 22nd, 2007, 11:05 PM

What is the point of this thread ?

If i posted a thread for ever os i dont use anymore id have no time to learn about any new os's :P

So ubuntu didnt work for you or you cant use google or both big deal :)

delarosa.ant

September 23rd, 2007, 02:09 AM

Back to the darkside......
Good luck.
):P

uputer

September 23rd, 2007, 03:20 AM

Again, the community turns on someone who is frustrated with the distro. Why? The person is justified.

I tried to get wireless to work to no avail. But, even in Windoze 2K, I have it working. Why not just allow critiques when they're justified? Why have so much pride? Maybe it will improve but there are major issues.

I bought what I thought was hardware compatible with Ubuntu/Linux and that is the main reason for getting it. A Belkin adapter that, according to the Ubuntu wireless page, works 'out of the box' and is easily configured. But, it only worked erratically and I either had to choose WEP through Network Interfaces or WPA through the other method. I could only have a static IP using WEP. It was very counter-intuitive. I could not access my router settings either when activating and configuring the adapter.

I read on here a lot of wireless woes and although there are people with their share of Windoze issues when it comes to wireless, Linux is not yet close to improving in that area as far as I can tell.

Modred

September 23rd, 2007, 03:28 AM

I read on here a lot of wireless woes and although there are people with their share of Windoze issues when it comes to wireless, Linux is not yet close to improving in that area as far as I can tell.

Don't blame GNU/Linux developers for wireless problems; that problem rests almost entirely with hardware manufacturers who refuse to release open specifications of their products. Writing drivers without a specification is hardly a trivial task.

And just so you don't feel left out, my Belkin card (Atheros chipset) doesn't work in Ubuntu, either, despite being listed as fully functional on the Ubuntu wiki.

uputer

September 23rd, 2007, 03:43 AM

And just so you don't feel left out, my Belkin card (Atheros chipset) doesn't work in Ubuntu, either, despite being listed as fully functional on the Ubuntu wiki.
I had the impression my Belkin adapter has the Atmel chipset.

Anyway, the docs writers state these hardware components are supported but what does that mean? It works at least once?

aysiu

September 23rd, 2007, 03:51 AM

I don't know exactly what model you're talking about, but if you compare the Belkin page (https://help.ubuntu.com/community/HardwareSupportComponentsWirelessNetworkCardsBelki n) to the Intel page (https://help.ubuntu.com/community/HardwareSupportComponentsWirelessNetworkCardsIntel ), you'll see that all the Intel ones work out of the box (including the one I'm using, Intel Pro Wireless 2200), but the Belkin ones usually have some kind of qualification (need for fwcutter or ndiswrapper, for example).

P.S. My wife's Powerbook has had all sorts of wireless troubles, especially with WPA, but neither she nor I have decided to write off all Macs as problematic (even though, through Google searches, I've seen she's not alone). It doesn't make any sense to universalize your personal experience and dismiss an entire OS's usability based on that limited perspective.

uputer

September 23rd, 2007, 11:21 AM

For one thing it's a Belkin USB adapter, not card. I had reason to believe it worked out of the box (in Ubuntu). Although, they're not very expensive, I researched extensively before making a choice. I had enough projects (in Linux) at the moment that I would like to avoid adding another one.

Furthermore, at the very start of this thread is the poll in which HALF of the respondents state they could NOT get wireless to work. How is it I don't make sense? I do my best to be rational and fair and I don't think I've judged unfairly at all.

I don't know about other distros (I'd bet many are similar or the same in experience), setting up wireless is very counter intuitive and sloppy. Check the Kubuntu forum (another place I looked so that I could assess fairly). There is confusion with the 'double' method and the fact that you are limited to WEP to a great extent depending on what type of configuration you want. How is that *I'm* being unfair? :-/

lsutiger

September 23rd, 2007, 01:36 PM

I wouldn't say you are being 'unfair', but I am going to state a fact. Have you ever done a clean install of Win 98/ME/2000/XP? Have you looked at the device manager when it is done? That's right, there are a lot of those yellow question marks. IOW - A lot of devices DO NOT work out of the box. You need drivers.
When you load Ubuntu, ALMOST everything works out of the box.
The problem is not that the linux community is not trying to make it asy as pie. The problem lies with the manufacturers of hardware not making the drivers available. Everytime a new chipset is put on the market, the linux community has another challenge.

A great example of the community working is getting my Broadcom wireless to work. I did not have to jump through hoops dealing with ndiswrapper or fwcutter. I did some searching and got mine working using this guide (http://www.linux-geek.org/index.php/2007/06/17/injection-capable-bcm43xx-driver-2620-16-generic-kernel/). This person modded the native driver provided with ubuntu to work with the .16 kernel.

I do wish that the manufacturers would open their eyes to the linux community. It is coming, slowly but surely.

ukripper

September 23rd, 2007, 01:41 PM

Wait for gutsy it will take world by storm...........:guitar:

Fitzy_oz

September 23rd, 2007, 10:53 PM

[QUOTE=uputer;3413413]For one thing it's a Belkin USB adapter, not card. I had reason to believe it worked out of the box (in Ubuntu). Although, they're not very expensive, I researched extensively before making a choice. I had enough projects (in Linux) at the moment that I would like to avoid adding another one.

Hmmm, there are two USB be ones listed in the document, one that works and one that doesn't... I too have a belkin wireless card as well as a Netgear USB dongle. The chipset in the belkin that i have uses the RALink RT61 driver - which hardlocks the system when trying to connect to anything, however it works fine with the ndiswrapper. The Netgear USB dongle i use works fine with the native driver or the wrapper. If you find the information is wrong it may be worth logging in and updating it so that other people know about the issue, as I think the documents that the information your referring to comes from the users expieriences with them.

uputer

September 23rd, 2007, 10:56 PM

The fact remains that Linux has a LONG way to go before it's a usable OS (for mainstream work). Unless you have no use for a job or anything to do, then it might be usable. You need to spend lots of time on it and researching, compiling or whatever to even have it barely usable. Otherwise, you have obstacles upon obstacles and yes, it is worse in that regard even to Windoze.

I have wireless installed in Windows and it works and I had it working within 5 minutes. Kubuntu/Ubuntu had it working erratically but it's back to not working. KNetwork Manager won't even start now. I try to start it but nothing happens. It was bad enough that there are supposedly two GUI methods to configure but one (Network Manager) allows either WEP or WPA while the manual configuration method (the only one I can use now) only allows WEP as a choice. Unacceptable.

The problem or what really annoys me is the pride of Linux users. It's infuriating. They are like little children who can't admit mistakes or anything negative. What's with all the excuse-making? Yeah, manufacturers don't tend to offer Linux drivers. Not enough people use Linux (distros). So, they cater to the 80% of the market that uses Windoze. Do you blame them? The problem is that to do anything in Linux, you need to not only learn the command line and commands but you need to learn how to build modules and compile. Is your average computer user going to have patience or time to do that? Even if they do, these tasks take considerable time and it is especially time-consuming for the new (Linux) user.

It is frustrating to keep reading users continuously point out that companies don't offer Linux drivers and that means there's no problem and that you can't criticize. When Linux is able to utilize what DRIVERS ARE AVAILABLE and have things work better, more manufacturers might start to notice.

uputer

September 23rd, 2007, 11:05 PM

[
Hmmm, there are two USB be ones listed in the document, one that works and one that doesn't... I too have a belkin wireless card as well as a Netgear USB dongle. The chipset in the belkin that i have uses the RALink RT61 driver - which hardlocks the system when trying to connect to anything, however it works fine with the ndiswrapper. The Netgear USB dongle i use works fine with the native driver or the wrapper. If you find the information is wrong it may be worth logging in and updating it so that other people know about the issue, as I think the documents that the information your referring to comes from the users expieriences with them.
I only see the one listed. Can you send me the link where there are two?

Which Netgear USB adapter do you have and what version?

I have never used ndiswrapper.

Perhaps, I might have to use it with the Belkin. I don't know if I can return it. I will have to read the receipt. I am not a happy camper because I had the impression it would work. I would be prepared to do extra but that would be the last option. I'd like to have wireless but only having it in Windoze doesn't help.

I don't know if there is a problem with this particular Belkin adapter but I have not been able to find any write-up or document about using it. That was probably my mistake.

Fitzy_oz

September 23rd, 2007, 11:17 PM

The fact remains that Linux has a LONG way to go before it's a usable OS (for mainstream work). Unless you have no use for a job or anything to do, then it might be usable. You need to spend lots of time on it and researching, compiling or whatever to even have it barely usable. Otherwise, you have obstacles upon obstacles and yes, it is worse in that regard even to Windoze.
Thats a very inaccurate thing to say, and i'll put that down to your frustration...

I can't even rememnber the last time I had to complile something and I've been using the OS for nearly 2 years. Yes I had to research some issues simply because i wasn't familiar with the OS and the way it's drivers work, where they're located etc....The fact is that almost all software in Ubuntu can be installed via the Add Remove option in accessories, failing that it's almost certainly in the Synaptic package manager. Failing all of that almost everything else I have ever needed i have been able to find a .deb file, which as you know is the Debian Linux equivalent of a windows msi installer, so forgive me if im a little curious as to what obstacles your referring to.

It is frustrating to keep reading users continuously point out that companies don't offer Linux drivers and that means there's no problem and that you can't criticize. When Linux is able to utilize what DRIVERS ARE AVAILABLE and have things work better, more manufacturers might start to notice.

This too is a silly thing to say, the manafacturers that do provide the drivers for Linux actually work flawlessly, the problem is with alot of the manafacturers'cards is that they dont provide the specs and they in turn have to be reverse engineered, which takes time and is not always accurate. The drivers that are available or should I say have been made available do work fine.

My Wireless Stuff -
Netgear - wg111v2 - USB dongle I got witha broadband pack from telstra.
If your using the 32bit verion of ubuntu, going to the package manager and doing a search for ndiswrapper and install the ndis-gtk package this will give you the frontend to install the windows wireless drivers for you're device.
Might save you having to get a new dongle, I can pm you the entire process a bit later, am at work atm.

The link for the Belkin Page I was talking about - https://help.ubuntu.com/community/HardwareSupportComponentsWirelessNetworkCardsBelki n

uputer

September 23rd, 2007, 11:39 PM

Thats a very inaccurate thing to say, and i'll put that down to your frustration...

I can't even rememnber the last time I had to complile something and I've been using the OS for nearly 2 years. Yes I had to research some issues simply because i wasn't familiar with the OS and the way it's drivers work, where they're located etc....The fact is that almost all software in Ubuntu can be installed via the Add Remove option in accessories, failing that it's almost certainly in the Synaptic package manager. Failing all of that almost everything else I have ever needed i have been able to find a .deb file, which as you know is the Debian Linux equivalent of a windows msi installer, so forgive me if im a little curious as to what obstacles your referring to.
There have been so many. You want a list?

This too is a silly thing to say, the manafacturers that do provide the drivers for Linux actually work flawlessly, the problem is with alot of the manafacturers'cards is that they dont provide the specs and they in turn have to be reverse engineered, which takes time and is not always accurate. The drivers that are available or should I say have been made available do work fine.
That's why there's a zillion posts about X product and X drivers not working.

My Belkin F5D7050 usb adapter is not working. I went by the wiki stating it works out of the box. It doesn't. It works somewhat but not properly and the entire configuration utility used in Kubuntu (I can't speak for Ubuntu but I am guessing it is similar) is absolutely horrid. It's worse than any Windoze install setup that I've ever seen. KNetwork Manager won't even start up now. I would connect (it would take a while) but then suddenly lose the connection. I couldn't access my router settings. If you chose to manually configure, you are limited to WEP. My complaints are justified due to no solution in sight. If you want the option of both WPA or WEP, how do you obtain that? It's not intuitive.

My Wireless Stuff -
Netgear - wg111v2 - USB dongle I got witha broadband pack from telstra.
If your using the 32bit verion of ubuntu, going to the package manager and doing a search for ndiswrapper and install the ndis-gtk package this will give you the frontend to install the windows wireless drivers for you're device.
Might save you having to get a new dongle, I can pm you the entire process a bit later, am at work atm.

The link for the Belkin Page I was talking about - https://help.ubuntu.com/community/HardwareSupportComponentsWirelessNetworkCardsBelki n
I will only use the 32bit version. I don't want extra problems (associated with 64-bit OS and 32-bit applications.)

Fitzy_oz

September 24th, 2007, 01:15 AM

There have been so many. You want a list?

I would be interested in it, Im sure the developers would be to...

That's why there's a zillion posts about X product and X drivers not working.

My Belkin F5D7050 usb adapter is not working. I went by the wiki stating it works out of the box. It doesn't. It works somewhat but not properly and the entire configuration utility used in Kubuntu (I can't speak for Ubuntu but I am guessing it is similar) is absolutely horrid. It's worse than any Windoze install setup that I've ever seen. KNetwork Manager won't even start up now. I would connect (it would take a while) but then suddenly lose the connection. I couldn't access my router settings. If you chose to manually configure, you are limited to WEP. My complaints are justified due to no solution in sight. If you want the option of both WPA or WEP, how do you obtain that? It's not intuitive.

I will only use the 32bit version. I don't want extra problems (associated with 64-bit OS and 32-bit applications.)

I agree, but I'm sure theres a million more about Windows or MacOS, anyway thats a dead argument, all operating systems have software/drivers that should just work but don't (I wouldn't have a job if they did).

I haven't used Kubuntu all that much but I have generally found it to be a little on the complicated side with some things that just don't work. The wirelesss manager being one of those things that i've heard mentioned a few times in passing. It's generally a bit behind Ubuntu in a lot of areas in my opinion, try the normal ubuntu, you might be pleasantly surprised with how much easier it is, and no the wireless network manager in GNOME is a lot more intuitive and better presented than it's KDE counterpart. That being said, it might interest you to know that I've had similar issues under windows with the belkin card mentioned above, where by it proprietary software utilities for connecting to wireless networks simply didn't work. As for the wpa stuff, I can't say as i don't use it (my network at home uses wep and MAC address filtering), WEP works and is easliy configured under GNOME.

uputer

September 24th, 2007, 01:52 AM

Fitzy_oz

September 24th, 2007, 01:56 AM

I guess I could use Ubuntu and install KDE-base and log in to whichever desktop I want?

But, I've used Ubuntu/Gnome in the past and decided I liked KDE way better. I don't know if Gnome has changed much but I really didn't like it the last time I used Ubuntu/Gnome. I used Debian a while ago and had KDE. But, I found Debian more suited (as far as I could tell) for someone more experienced in Linux. Perhaps, that is not true but I was hoping Ubuntu could ease me into the learning part but I have not been that successful. Time restraints and the level of complexity make it difficult to dedicate time and decide how much time I am willing to set aside to it.

You can always just install the gnome components such as the nm-applet (Network manager applet) which will give you the more functional (and imho far superior) applet for configuring. But thats up to you, I don;t mind KDE either, but i have a wife and kid that need to use the computer also so GNOME is the obvious choice for me, I actually quite like it too.

julian67

September 24th, 2007, 04:35 AM

The fact remains that Linux has a LONG way to go before it's a usable OS (for mainstream work). that's an opinion not a fact Unless you have no use for a job or anything to do, then it might be usable. You need to spend lots of time on it and researching, compiling or whatever to even have it barely usable. Otherwise, you have obstacles upon obstacles and yes, it is worse in that regard even to Windoze.

Linux is installed and working fine on many millions of desktops, both commercial and domestic. Audi runs Linux. Peugeot Citroen runs Linux. The French Parliament runs Linux. The entire state of Russia is going to install Linux on every school computer.... and so on. Google distrowatch news or linux.com for numerous examples that show your claim to be erroneous. Oh yeah Google runs Ubuntu on its desktops. I've heard they're doing ok ;-)

I have wireless installed in Windows and it works and I had it working within 5 minutes. Kubuntu/Ubuntu had it working erratically but it's back to not working. KNetwork Manager won't even start now. I try to start it but nothing happens. It was bad enough that there are supposedly two GUI methods to configure but one (Network Manager) allows either WEP or WPA while the manual configuration method (the only one I can use now) only allows WEP as a choice. Unacceptable.

For me wireless works out of the box in Ubuntu. Zero install time. WPA perfectly supported. Totally acceptable.

The problem or what really annoys me is the pride of Linux users. It's infuriating. They are like little children who can't admit mistakes or anything negative. What's with all the excuse-making? Yeah, manufacturers don't tend to offer Linux drivers. Not enough people use Linux (distros). So, they cater to the 80% of the market that uses Windoze. Do you blame them? The problem is that to do anything in Linux, you need to not only learn the command line and commands but you need to learn how to build modules and compile. Is your average computer user going to have patience or time to do that? Even if they do, these tasks take considerable time and it is especially time-consuming for the new (Linux) user.

What really annoys me is people who get upset like little children when they don't understand something and then decide the fault lies 100% elsewhere.

It is frustrating to keep reading users continuously point out that companies don't offer Linux drivers and that means there's no problem and that you can't criticize. When Linux is able to utilize what DRIVERS ARE AVAILABLE and have things work better, more manufacturers might start to notice.

Yes, being unable to understand a simple fact despite it being repeatedly explained must be frustrating.

karellen

September 24th, 2007, 06:43 AM

The problem is that to do anything in Linux, you need to not only learn the command line and commands but you need to learn how to build modules and compile.

that's simply bull****. have you ever used a modern Linux distro? or you take your info from the mid-90's?

jrib

September 24th, 2007, 07:45 AM

There have been so many. You want a list?

Yes, I would like a list. Please tell us everything you needed to compile. That way we can actually work on fixing the problem.

uputer

September 24th, 2007, 11:20 AM

that's an opinion not a fact

Linux is installed and working fine on many millions of desktops, both commercial and domestic. Audi runs Linux. Peugeot Citroen runs Linux. The French Parliament runs Linux. The entire state of Russia is going to install Linux on every school computer.... and so on. Google distrowatch news or linux.com for numerous examples that show your claim to be erroneous. Oh yeah Google runs Ubuntu on its desktops. I've heard they're doing ok ;-)

Yes, I know. They're called servers.

For me wireless works out of the box in Ubuntu. Zero install time. WPA perfectly supported. Totally acceptable.
Wonderful. You want a prize.

Yes, being unable to understand a simple fact despite it being repeatedly explained must be frustrating.
You're a perfect example of what's wrong in the Linux community.

julian67

September 24th, 2007, 12:09 PM

1. I wrote desktops because I meant desktops, not servers. Google's servers run Linux and so do their desktops. Specifically they run Ubuntu.

2. I already have the prize: free software.

3. Thank you. Perhaps there are some lucky people running a windows forum whose lives will be enhanced by your gracious contribution. Bye!

jschade

September 24th, 2007, 02:08 PM

sstusick

September 24th, 2007, 04:19 PM

My wireless worked out of the box :-D, as did 99% of the rest of my hardware.

uputer

September 24th, 2007, 10:56 PM

i had no problems with wireless with ubuntu. i recently installed it on my acer laptop after being tired of the 5000 problems i was having with windows, on my first boot after install my wireless worked without me having to touch anything, and all the problems i was having with windows had vanished. also installing applications have been very easy, being somewhat unfamiliar with linux it can be a little frustrating if you're normally a windows user, but thats where google comes in. i haven't had an issue in ubuntu that google hasn't remedied within 5 minutes.
But, what do you do in Ubuntu?

I can tell you that I've used the popular programs and have witnessed various other projects with major problems including MythTV, AviDemux, Tovid, Kaffeine not working, plugins not working or having complicated installs required, MPlayer not working, wireless not working and more. Each of those required multiple minutes if not hours of tweaking (some taking much longer than others). I assume you don't do much in Ubuntu since I know of people well versed in Linux taking a lot of time to do some things (not all, I admit). I realize some programs work better than others but to claim every single issue only took 5 minutes sounds fishy if not downright false as far as I'm concerned.

sstusick and jschade, what wireless adapters do you use? I will try to get one of those if you give me the manufacturer name and version number. I will order or pick one up right away. I want wireless to work out of the box if I can get something that does. The current one, supposedly does but now I find a page here in which it needs command lines carried out and a long process apparently. But, I have a second computer being built and would like wireless working on it as well. I am confident any Windows partition will work in wireless but it would be nice to have a Linux OS wireless working (out of the box), too.

jrib

September 25th, 2007, 12:04 AM

Yes, I would like a list. Please tell us everything you needed to compile. That way we can actually work on fixing the problem.

uputer, I'm being serious here. I'm not sure if you missed my post. But I really like Ubuntu and want to see it work better. Users like you who have found problems are important because you can tell us what we need to work on. If you have the time, please paste that list here.

uputer

September 25th, 2007, 12:23 AM

uputer, I'm being serious here. I'm not sure if you missed my post. But I really like Ubuntu and want to see it work better. Users like you who have found problems are important because you can tell us what we need to work on. If you have the time, please paste that list here.
Most people here like Ubuntu, doesn't anybody like me?!? :-O 'Kidding.

Okay, here's a brief, generalized list:

Belkin F5D7050 ver. 4000 USB Adapter [chipset: zd1211b] - wireless adapter won't work. Seems very complicated from googling and reading the Zydas/Zd1211 pages found via Google.

Avidemux – problems with video/sound sync (not experienced but told about it)

Specific to Ubuntu:
Ubuntu – Automatix – didn't work – had errors

Ubuntu – Kaffeine – problems using video – not all codecs installing

Ubuntu – Mplayer

Azureus

K3b – normalize-audio (won't work/install – this problem persists for everybody AFAIK – based on google search)

Nvidia and AVI drivers – self explanatory

MythTV – when I tried this, the Tutorial was poorly written or at least, the steps didn't correspond with what happens or the responses in Ubuntu were different or you could not continue. Suffice to say, the install and configuration didn't finish and a Mythbox in Ubuntu was abandoned out of frustration and I even had expert Linux help

Flash video in Firefox wouldn't install

Tab completion – Ubuntu

CUPS

These issues and problems might exist with other distros so please don't accuse me of being unfair or biased. I also cannot remember very many specifics as I am currently using Wireless with my Windows partition so not using Kubuntu at the moment. Although, I've decided to document any issues, attempted commands and tasks when using Ubuntu/Kubuntu from now on.

Also, keep in mind, my list is not a complete list but what I could recall at this moment in time. If interested, I could add when I recall/discover more issues.

ViCyniC

September 25th, 2007, 01:07 AM

jrib

September 25th, 2007, 08:54 AM

Most people here like Ubuntu, doesn't anybody like me?!? :-O 'Kidding.

Okay, here's a brief, generalized list:
[snip]

These issues and problems might exist with other distros so please don't accuse me of being unfair or biased. I also cannot remember very many specifics as I am currently using Wireless with my Windows partition so not using Kubuntu at the moment. Although, I've decided to document any issues, attempted commands and tasks when using Ubuntu/Kubuntu from now on.

Also, keep in mind, my list is not a complete list but what I could recall at this moment in time. If interested, I could add when I recall/discover more issues.

Thank you. I feel like a lot of these issues should be easily solved with a little help (with the exception of the wireless card which I don't know about). If you'd like some help feel free to open a new thread and link to it so we know about it. If you're done with Ubuntu for now, best of luck with your new OS and I hope you give Ubuntu another try when a new version comes out.

uputer

September 25th, 2007, 09:32 AM

Don't count on it. It won't be any different.

julian67

September 25th, 2007, 10:29 AM

Most people here like Ubuntu, doesn't anybody like me?!? :-O 'Kidding.

Okay, here's a brief, generalized list:

Belkin F5D7050 ver. 4000 USB Adapter [chipset: zd1211b] - wireless adapter won't work. Seems very complicated from googling and reading the Zydas/Zd1211 pages found via Google.

Avidemux – problems with video/sound sync (not experienced but told about it)

Specific to Ubuntu:
Ubuntu – Automatix – didn't work – had errors

Ubuntu – Kaffeine – problems using video – not all codecs installing

Ubuntu – Mplayer

Azureus

K3b – normalize-audio (won't work/install – this problem persists for everybody AFAIK – based on google search)

Nvidia and AVI drivers – self explanatory

MythTV – when I tried this, the Tutorial was poorly written or at least, the steps didn't correspond with what happens or the responses in Ubuntu were different or you could not continue. Suffice to say, the install and configuration didn't finish and a Mythbox in Ubuntu was abandoned out of frustration and I even had expert Linux help

Flash video in Firefox wouldn't install

Tab completion – Ubuntu

CUPS

These issues and problems might exist with other distros so please don't accuse me of being unfair or biased. I also cannot remember very many specifics as I am currently using Wireless with my Windows partition so not using Kubuntu at the moment. Although, I've decided to document any issues, attempted commands and tasks when using Ubuntu/Kubuntu from now on.

Also, keep in mind, my list is not a complete list but what I could recall at this moment in time. If interested, I could add when I recall/discover more issues.

I'd like to add some comments on this list:

Automatix is not officially supported. in fact its use is officially discouraged because it breaks systems. If you want to really assess Ubuntu please try again without Automatix.

The Zydas 1211 chipset: this is the excact chipset in my USB adapter that worked with zero input from me beyonds plugging it into a USB port.

Avidemux: Complaining about a problem you've merely heard about but never experienced a strange thing to do? It sets off warnings for me.

Some of your other problems are merely application names: "mplayer" "azureus". Should anybody believe there is a real problem or is it just that it's yet another thing you personally don't like?

nvidia and AVI (ATI????) Writing "self explanatory" does not explain what the problem is. Many people have nvidia drivers installed (I'm one of them). Some people have problems, not all problems are the same.

Flash in Firefox: are there really people who can't get this working in 32 bit Ubuntu by simply installing flashplayer non-free?

CUPS - again this is merely the name of a back end, not a description of any difficulty or problem. It is as meaningless as your other "complaints"

Tab completion - Ubuntu Ubuntu is the name of the distro, not an application. Tab completion works perfectly and as intended in the shell. Again your complaint is just meaningless.

Frankly I doubt your sincerity and believe your posts are not made in good faith. Other forums would have marked you as a troll and banned you and your ip address by now.

uputer

September 25th, 2007, 11:24 AM

I'm being totally sincere and fair. I'm reporting MY experience which is why I'm only posting about this in this section. But, I added the other info based on observations of other posts and Linux articles. Why doubt me? Because you just don't like to hear it. That's how I perceive it. But, I'll go over your responses because I'm a nice guy and I will explain myself and the list before I 'give up.'

I'd like to add some comments on this list:

Automatix is not officially supported. in fact its use is officially discouraged because it breaks systems. If you want to really assess Ubuntu please try again without Automatix.

Some other poster asked for a list and I gave it to them. I tried Automatix because I tried a 64-bit version of Ubuntu and at the time, Automatix was recommended to enable 32-bit programs. I have since read about the same source-breaking that you seem to have read.

The Zydas 1211 chipset: this is the excact chipset in my USB adapter that worked with zero input from me beyonds plugging it into a USB port.
That doesn't help. How come when I say something 'doesn't work,' I'm asked to explain and detail everything but it's okay for you and others to say, 'well, it worked for me.' Haven't we already gone over this issue ad nauseum? Great, it works for you, but for me, it only slightly worked and only temporarily. I'm giving my experience of it not working and for you, it was perfect. So, I have a different, a third zd1211 driver that only doesn't work on 'uputer' computers.

Avidemux: Complaining about a problem you've merely heard about but never experienced a strange thing to do? It sets off warnings for me.
I was only trying to imply a pattern. I would not mention it if it was based on newbies trying it. I listed it because I have heard or learned firsthand of experienced Linux users having issues with it.

Some of your other problems are merely application names: "mplayer" "azureus". Should anybody believe there is a real problem or is it just that it's yet another thing you personally don't like?
A real problem. Look it up. Anyway, MPlayer seemed buggy when I tried to use it and I have seen another user have some trouble. It took tweaking but for a newbie, it would be very problematic. But, everything is supposed to be really easy in Linux as everything 'just works.'

nvidia and AVI (ATI????) Writing "self explanatory" does not explain what the problem is. Many people have nvidia drivers installed (I'm one of them). Some people have problems, not all problems are the same.
There are a zillion posts about problems with both Nvidia and ATI drivers, both propietary/non-free and free open source ones. I didn't know I had to explain this.

Flash in Firefox: are there really people who can't get this working in 32 bit Ubuntu by simply installing flashplayer non-free?
I will give you this one. Perhaps, if I bothered to really work on it, I would have got it working. I know I've seen it work when I had other distros installed and used. But, I included anything that took some tweaking on the list to point out the numerous problems and issues and the implied time-consuming trials it takes to get everything working (or somewhat working).

CUPS - again this is merely the name of a back end, not a description of any difficulty or problem. It is as meaningless as your other "complaints"
Hmmm....No comment.

Tab completion - Ubuntu Ubuntu is the name of the distro, not an application. Tab completion works perfectly and as intended in the shell. Again your complaint is just meaningless.

Frankly I doubt your sincerity and believe your posts are not made in good faith. Other forums would have marked you as a troll and banned you and your ip address by now.
I'm sure you'd ban me if you could. :-/

Everything I've said has been based on my experiences, observations, reading, research and speculation. Why is that 'trolling?' Because it's critical or negative? That's it.

julian67

September 25th, 2007, 12:25 PM

Not a single fact about a specific problem. A pattern made of unsubstantiated non-experienced problem. mplayer "seemed buggy". CUPS "hmmm.. no comment" as a request for help? report of a difficulty? nvidia: no description of problem. Flash " Perhaps, if I bothered to really work on it, I would have got it working" That's the closest you got to saying something honest and also describes perfectly why nobody will be able to help you.

You claim to be sincerely seeking help but offer nothing except negativity, not even one single supportable fact or description. This evidently is trolling.

uputer

September 25th, 2007, 12:38 PM

I've given facts throughout the forum. Why repeat myself when you can read specifics in those posts. I have several extensive posts related to MythTV and wireless, to name just two examples although I have had others regarding other applications as well.

I went into great detail in those posts. I stated that I had a temporary wireless connection that would repeatedly drop out. After playing with kwifi, wlassistant, KNetwork Manager and configuring manually, I don't have neither a wireless connection nor a wired one. I have no clue what happened there or why it effected the wired one. MythTV would only get so far but the IR Blaster won't change channels. I abandoned that project after months of trying. I explained what I did and even had expert help to no avail. I don't know what you're looking for.

Ultimately, the end of the threads turned into 'it worked for me' or no one could help. Others have had similar problems which ultimately ended with no solution. I'm not trolling and I wish posters would stop making false accusations.

julian67

September 25th, 2007, 12:49 PM

so link to those posts where you state the facts.

uputer

September 25th, 2007, 01:05 PM

julian67

September 25th, 2007, 01:08 PM

Sorry to double post but I did actually just take the trouble to look at threads started by uputer. I'd suggest a moderator does the same. Threads titles "ubuntu/linux sucks" "Done Like Dinner" "Legitimate complaints" were not a huge surprise.

uputer is a serial troll :lolflag: and has bored and annoyed many forum members already. He keeps saying goodbye but somehow never quite quits, always has one more thing to whine about.

cacycleworks

September 25th, 2007, 09:29 PM

yeah , like switching desktops or dragging text using tab to autocomplete a command prompt, using arrows to poll through the last few commands or installing amarok?. oh wait you STILL cant do those things in windows.....

hehe... among others...

Oh man, what sealed the lid on window's coffin for me was how i found i could easily double my productivity in the linux environment. i don't care much for gnome and kde seems to be more intuitive to me...

kubuntu + "hot keys" = incredible power.

i map the "windows" key to have special functionality. anytime i have to type something a lot, it gets a text macro. i have about a dozen made. my most used does this in a single (combo) key stroke....

before... i hit reply in gmail then type in the customer's name, leaving the cursor alone... :

Bill(cursor is here)

i press win+t and....

after:
Hi Bill,

Thanks for writing!

(cursor ends up here, ready for my reply)

Thanks,
Chris

stupid. simple. not available in windows. it can type text, it can launch programs, it can send commands to programs, and more ... like i suspect you can have it run text through awkd or sed to perform a complex task.

the ease of connectivity and power of shell scripting are incredible. i can simplify or automate complicated processes for my employees.

i use computers for work and little else, so perhaps i'm not a typical user. they help me earn business for my e-commerce site via e-mail and forums. they process shipments and make my money via invoicing, shipping, and credit card transactions. they do other work, too: edit how-to videos, update my site, render my catalog pages from database, etc. winXP failed to do this reliably and started me poking around linux...

oh well, my post isn't really related other than i can't imagine ever again choosing windows.

:)

uputer

September 26th, 2007, 10:44 PM

I'm learning more commands and how to use certain tools. But, it would be nice if I didn't have to read personal attacks.

I know I've whined here and there but I tried to stick to the Testimonials section.

Caffeine_Junky

September 26th, 2007, 10:54 PM

good on-ya for giving linux a go uputer :)

..don't worry about anything from the past.

The future is at hand.... :)

I know jumping into linux is quite a big step, (and not a simple one) ..but, hey, as my old Dad useto say "It's all experience" ...

cheers :)

jonathonblake

September 27th, 2007, 08:52 PM

The fact remains that Linux has a LONG way to go before it's a usable OS (for mainstream work).

There is one issue, and only one issue preventing me from installing Ubuntu on my housemate's computer. Dual boot is mandatory, but there is no way to configure that for a blind person to use,without a braille Display unit hooked up to the system.

I have wireless installed in Windows and it works and I had it working within 5 minutes.

Comcast spent over an hour trying to get the Wireless network card working on my Windows box. (I'm not sure how far up the ladder they went, but it was at least two levels up, before they could find somebody who could walk them through installing the card. It was sheer luck that they managed to get the wireless connection working.)

Comcast could not get the ethernet card to work on the Windows card. An ethernet card that worked with Ubuntu. (If I spent the time installing password breaking programs for the wireless router, I'd be able to use the wireless card on my Linux box . Comcast did not tell me the password they used for the router.)

The problem is that to do anything in Linux, you need to not only learn the command line and commands but you need to learn how to build modules and compile.

The only time I've had to compile code is when:
* I want to use the bleeding edge version of a program. (The sort of code that shouldn't be used anywhere near a production system;
* I've customized the source code;

Your average computer user is not going to be writing their own customizations to the software. Nor are they going to be want to be on the bleeding edge.

Even if they do, these tasks take considerable time and it is especially time-consuming for the new (Linux) user.

Compiling source takes time. But this is not something that the average user has had to do this century, on a Linux box.

When Linux is able to utilize what DRIVERS ARE AVAILABLE and have things work better, more manufacturers might start to notice.

Linux can utilize the drivers that are available. Problems occur when the firmware is updated,without the driver being updated. These changes aren't usually noticed on Windows boxes, because the driver is included on a disk. Firmware updates are very visible to Linux, becuase it has unexpected effects on the driver.

xan

jonathon

uputer

September 29th, 2007, 07:39 PM

There is one issue, and only one issue preventing me from installing Ubuntu on my housemate's computer. Dual boot is mandatory, but there is no way to configure that for a blind person to use,without a braille Display unit hooked up to the system.

Comcast spent over an hour trying to get the Wireless network card working on my Windows box. (I'm not sure how far up the ladder they went, but it was at least two levels up, before they could find somebody who could walk them through installing the card. It was sheer luck that they managed to get the wireless connection working.)

Comcast could not get the ethernet card to work on the Windows card. An ethernet card that worked with Ubuntu. (If I spent the time installing password breaking programs for the wireless router, I'd be able to use the wireless card on my Linux box . Comcast did not tell me the password they used for the router.)

The only time I've had to compile code is when:
* I want to use the bleeding edge version of a program. (The sort of code that shouldn't be used anywhere near a production system;
* I've customized the source code;

Your average computer user is not going to be writing their own customizations to the software. Nor are they going to be want to be on the bleeding edge.

Compiling source takes time. But this is not something that the average user has had to do this century, on a Linux box.

Linux can utilize the drivers that are available. Problems occur when the firmware is updated,without the driver being updated. These changes aren't usually noticed on Windows boxes, because the driver is included on a disk. Firmware updates are very visible to Linux, becuase it has unexpected effects on the driver.

xan

jonathon
We can agree to disagree. It seems no matter what is said, we have our own positions and it just keeps going in circles.

Rupertronco

September 29th, 2007, 07:49 PM

Anyone who disagreed, argued or otherwise took issue with my posts, I apologize if I offended, insulted, bothered or sounded unfair. It was not my intention. I'm ending my experience and use with Ubuntu/Kubuntu and perhaps, Linux in general. I'm not sure yet.

All my posts in which I describe specific problems and experiences can be found through a forum search. I checked my own posts and there are 3 pages and the ones regarding mythtv and wireless, I tried to detail the problems in most of those posts, I think.

Thanks to everyone who tried to sincerely help without prejudice.

Don't get hasty and decide that you're ending your entire Linux experience. I certainly respect the fact that you were willing to try a new operating system seeing as how most people are not. Voicing your concerns only makes Linux better, since it is constantly changing and improving.

Instead of arguing, understand that he is voicing his perspective, it may or may not be off base, regardless, it helps Linux improve. Also keep in mind making blanket statements such as "X in linux doesn't work" based on a single personal experience is just foolish.

Hopefully in the future you'll be able to try Linux again and by then it may be more suitable for your needs.

itlarson

September 29th, 2007, 10:34 PM

How did he try to install software? When I first started linux,(mandrake at the time) I would try to install randomly found rpm's off the Internet. It took me months to figure out that you have to use the distro's installer. It took even longer to figure out about configuring sources, and how to work around those sticky copyright issues. It seems that a quick message the first time time a new installation boots could direct new users around many problems.

uputer

September 29th, 2007, 11:26 PM

Also keep in mind making blanket statements such as "X in linux doesn't work" based on a single personal experience is just foolish.

Hopefully in the future you'll be able to try Linux again and by then it may be more suitable for your needs.
Thank you. I'm trying to learn a bit more before I throw in the towel.

I am trying a few more things before I give up on my wireless adapter.

I also want to learn how to install tar files and other tasks. The more advanced procedures will just take a while for me.

I try not to make 'blanket statements' as I research issues and problems before I perceive things. I also based my opinion on googling the problem and when I read a certain problem and users' trials, I like to think it's safe to suspect something. It's only after a lot of reading and research, too. I aim to be fair.

Thanks for the encouragement, btw.

likemindead

October 1st, 2007, 05:27 PM

I'm happy to announce that I sold my el cheapo Acer notebook and have an IBM Thinkpad R50p en route from USAnotbook.com so that when it arrives I will once again be 100% Micro$oft Windoze FREE on both my desktop and laptop! W[][]T! :)

julian67

October 1st, 2007, 05:59 PM

jbaerbock

October 1st, 2007, 07:04 PM

I did the opposite, wen't back to windows since I kept having problems in Linux. May come back some day but till then I'll still post.

nobodie

October 1st, 2007, 08:48 PM

Yes, best of luck, but.... I often wonder if some fanboyz from the windoze camp don't just spew this stuff over here for FUD. I mean really, if you can't figure out synaptic and how to read what the programs in the repos can do then are you literate at all?

When I ran Windoze 3.1 it was slow but steady. By '98 it was so unstable I had to reformat and reinstall every 6 months. Now, tell me linux is harder than that. ok, so most people didn't bother, they let themselves be blue screened until it was "broken" then bought a new one. That's easy, right?

So, into the pre modern era when XP arrived. It was more stable, but gradually slowed to ridiculous extremes (2-3 minute start-up and shutdown) unless you reformatted and reinstalled. that's a solution. And now we have pre-modern version 2 called Vista. Big improvement, no really it is, just ask the fanboyz.

Why use linux: it is a Modern operating system, based on modern programming process and technique with up to date algorithms and source code produced in a modern distributed production environment and with aims that include user friendliness and professional usability. It allows professionals to quickly and easily produce the work they are being paid to produce without the ridiculous loss of time and energy that is built in (not designed in, but not designed out as well) to Windoze. This is why I use Linux, to get things done.

jbaerbock

October 1st, 2007, 09:14 PM

I'm no fan boy of windows though I began using Linux I have learned to appreciate the fact that Windows has never frozen for me on this computer, that I run defrag maybe once a year overnight so yeah not really hard. And everything installs easily. Not to mention my 128 MB 3D Accel ATI card works fully in XP. Yeah I know it is not linux's fault that they don't get good drivers but still what am I going to use something that works for me 100% and is more stable or something that is fun to play with but I can never fully trust and cannot fully utilize my computer's hardware?

I have had to re-install Linux at least 50 times in the past year because of problems caused by installing updates and normal use and getting my hardware to work. Again I like linux but it is not something that will replace Windows any year soon, until some major upgrades are done.

sstusick

October 1st, 2007, 11:29 PM

How can you be a fanboy of an operating system that 90% (or whatever the percentage is) of computer users use?

southernman

October 1st, 2007, 11:44 PM

How can you be a fanboy of an operating system that 90% (or whatever the percentage is) of computer users use?Being a fanboy has nothing at all to do with market share. Besides, Windows market share is now down below 80%

http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=5

edited - ok, it's slightly over 80% if you count vista and 2000... :p

jbaerbock

October 2nd, 2007, 12:52 AM

Being a fanboy has nothing at all to do with market share. Besides, Windows market share is now down below 80%

http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=5

edited - ok, it's slightly over 80% if you count vista and 2000... :p

Lol to be fair you'd have to include all Windows OS's still in use. Being a fan of means you like and are in support of. So technically I am both a Linux and Windows fanboy :P.

mightyzug

October 2nd, 2007, 10:39 AM

uputer

October 2nd, 2007, 10:57 PM

I'll respond only once more to comments to that particular post.

I think you're the same as that other guy. You must be bored.

The applications I listed have several instances in any Linux distro forum of problems and few posts have a thread that has an issue resolved.

Almost all of them are complicated issues and long-term work involved and there are only few that are solved. You can visit debian-based and rpm-based forums, it doesn't matter.

I think wireless, MythTV, codecs/plugins and Automatix are the main ones but video drivers and printers are also seen to cause major problems and the excuse is always that there's no Linux drivers. I was talking about problems and issues and the complexity so it was never the point to justify. If fourteen year-olds want to post that anyone making those points is a troll, then they have a lot to learn.

julian67

October 3rd, 2007, 05:03 AM

regomodo

October 3rd, 2007, 08:05 AM

Goodbye Ubuntu!

I've come to realise that i have got nowhere in the last 6months with it. I cannot do photo editing, dvd:ripping well/at all in Linux. I seem to spend forever trying to get something to work.

Over this past 6months i honestly cannot see any improvements in each release since edgy. It may make improvements to allow new devices/machines but for me all what has happened is that it has got more bloated (speedwise) and memory consuming. It used to be about 100MB in edgy and has increased since.

I won't be away from linux. I'm going to keep Debian Etch on my Laptop (IMO the best distro) and use ArchLinux on my desktop.

I know i'll get flamed away but believe me, I have spent a long long time trying to satisfy my needs. regularly working into dawn so don't suggest apps i've tried them. It's time for me to stop fannying about and actually get something done. I'm all for FOSS but sometimes there is a good reason why software costs money.

I'll be using Linux for a file/print server and cluster project i have in mind but not for my desktop needs.

I won't say goodbye. Just see you later

uputer

October 3rd, 2007, 11:27 AM

gosh there are applications out there that aren't 100% perfect 100% of the time for 100% of the people who might try to (mis)use them. Everybody stop using them now! It's a disgrace. I'm going to google all the problems I can find and then form my opinions from other people's unverified complaints and then bitch about it! And if you criticise me I'll sulk and say you're mean and threaten to leave.....over and over and over again.....but never actually leave....

:rolleyes:
Nice try. If you and your friend (the other troll accuser) want to read posts of 'Ubuntu is giving me goosebumps,' there are people not having problems. Go talk to them. I think one can assume a 'testimonials' section will have people complaining and others saying they're doing great. Why do you want to berate people having difficulty with whatever?

I think most sensible people who use Linux will concede to the problems and issues involved and if they decide to tolerate and deal with them, great, good for them. I think a great deal of those people would sympathize but it's the vocal people on here, the snobs and jerks that berate people 'complaining' that make the place a less enjoyable one. I haven't posted anything except my assertion that wireless is not something that 'works out of the box' in the majority of cases. I think it is something that developers can work on and perhaps, everyone can try to encourage the manufacturers of the devices and related parts to help

julian67

October 3rd, 2007, 12:01 PM

I haven't posted anything except my assertion that wireless is not something that 'works out of the box' in the majority of cases.

would that include the thread entitled "ubuntu/linux sucks"? You remember, it's the one that you have since heavily re-edited and re-named and has now been closed by the mods :lolflag:

or The problem is that to do anything in Linux, you need to not only learn the command line and commands but you need to learn how to build modules and compile.

or comments like The problem or what really annoys me is the pride of Linux users. It's infuriating. They are like little children who can't admit mistakes or anything negative. What's with all the excuse-making? :lolflag::lolflag:

or The fact remains that Linux has a LONG way to go before it's a usable OS (for mainstream work). Unless you have no use for a job or anything to do, then it might be usable. You need to spend lots of time on it and researching, compiling or whatever to even have it barely usable. Otherwise, you have obstacles upon obstacles and yes, it is worse in that regard even to Windoze. :lolflag::lolflag::lolflag:

You could at least meet the minimum standard of simple honesty in your posts. So far you've been insulting, inaccurate and dishonest. It's OK to not be expert, nobody is when they begin, and many of us will never be. It's not OK to blame all your difficulties on other people, be angry with them, insult them and expect them to help you. As well as common problems with wi-fi which you also have enormous difficulties with applications and processes that are mature, well tested and high quality. Does this not suggest that the problem is not with those but with another factor?

PEBKAC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PEBKAC) Does that look familiar to you?

Samhain13

October 3rd, 2007, 12:27 PM

The problem or what really annoys me is the pride of Linux users. It's infuriating.

You really can't stop people from having a little pride after they've faced issues that they've been able to overcome with much diligence and humility (in recognising that they're not as computer literate as they first thought and seeking help, appriciating good advice from others). (Now that was a long sentence.)

...it's the vocal people on here, the snobs and jerks that berate people...

True enough that in any forum there are snobs and jerks. But they aren't always the ones berating people who can find so much time making assertions that things don't work but can't find the time to find a solution for why, in a particular instance, something doesn't work.

Cheers! :D

sstusick

October 3rd, 2007, 04:05 PM

PEBKAC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PEBKAC) Does that look familiar to you? :lolflag:

BOZG

October 3rd, 2007, 04:39 PM

Sorry but why do people feel the need to announce this?

I think it's probably a reaction to the type of Linux user, who's response to any problem about Windows is, "If you had Linux, you wouldn't have the problem". There are a few too many Linux users who are trying to take the throne of Mac users for their annoying, self-righteousness though most Linux users are nice.

It's incredibly frustrating when you people constantly tell you that "Linux is fantastic", "switch to Linux", "you'll have no problems with Linux" and then as soon as you switch over, something which is taken for granted on Windows, doesn't work at all. Unless you really are interested in computers or are a firm supporter of open-source, you can get frustrated really quickly. I remember when I first tested out Linux, I nearly went mad because I couldn't install any drivers for my graphics card.

Unfortunately, Linux is still behind in user-friendliness to people who just want to use their computer and couldn't careless about how it runs or how **** Windows is, once Windows does what they want it to do. Until Linux can provide that, a huge number of Windows users will not switch over to Linux.

Hopefully though, as people become more and more technologically literate, it will swell the ranks of people who are interested in developing open-source software.

Yoooder

October 3rd, 2007, 05:14 PM

After building a new PC this weekend it occured to me how much easier it is to setup drivers on Ubuntu than Windows. Ubuntu recognized all the onboard and add-in devices and "Just Worked" whereas Windows didn't recognize: Either SATA controller (an Intel and an JMicron, either network card, the audio, and the video card.

Now I realize that if Linux or Ubuntu doesn't support a device it can leave the user high and dry, however I found setting up Windows hardware and drivers to be a headache wheres Ubuntu was 1 mouse click to enable the restricted nVidia driver.

I just handed out a half-dozen Ubuntu 7.04 CDs to coworkers who are new to Linux. I'm curious to see what their reactions and responses are to it, especially since some have outdated perceptions (such as installation and hardware configurating being a tedious and technical task. I'll post their responses if there is anything of interest that comes of it.

Great Garrier Reef

October 3rd, 2007, 06:14 PM

Hi Gang. Wanted to let some newbies know what I went thru with Ubuntu and others (mainly Freespire) to perhaps save them some time deciding to use Ubuntu.
Firstly their is a lot of talk around at the moment that Ubuntu is easy to use and very much now like windows. WRONG!
I had to install Ubuntu 5 times before it installed without stopping and locking up. The plus side was that it found my network card right away which windows did not. The down side was that even though it found my network card and showed me a list of available wireless networks I could connect to, I just could not connect.
That was the start of Finding out how difficult Ubuntu really is. With Windows I got a CD with the card and after installing windows I load the driver for my network card and then connect to the net. Problem solved. With Ubuntu I had to search the forums. This is where I found that everyone has a different solution to the same problem and unfortunately none of them worked. It's also where I found that you can't simply install a driver to get the network card going.
Solutions ranged from people telling me I needed to type pages of text into a dos like text system (no cut and paste available), to copying files to a folder then running some special code all of which was extremely time consuming and ultimately pointless. In the end I moved my entire desktop to my modem (modem connected to voip and other stuff so PC easier to move but still a pain in the rump)
Connection was incredibly slow but I managed to finally install a cuppla TV programs (Kaffein, TV time, Myth TV) Now In windows I go to my TV card manufacturers site and install their driver and application which is superb BTW and as soon as I click the app it intelligently points out I have no channels and asks would I like to scan for them. I say yes and again. Easy. Done. Installed!
Not with UBUNTU!!! Instead of asking me if I'd like to scan for channnels, all 3 TV applications sat their like nervous young ladies at a school dance waiting for me to make the next move - so I did. I went looking for a scan button. None of the 3 apps seemed to have one. I clicked DVB thinking it would connect to TV but instead I simply got a message "server not connected" WTF!!!
Back to the forums I went looking for a solution. Again I got: type in miles of text or move files to a folder then type the following or try this and that then this that and the other - none of which worked!
Then it came to me! I have a quick and easy way to to get on the next and be able to watch my TV again. I wiped Ubuntu from my system installed my drivers and TV app and now I'm watching some tech show telling me how easy it is to use UBUNTU LOL.
In short. It looks nice but it don't work. I think in a few years it may work out of the box and someone might rip that bloody text engine out of it and use the graphical interface favoured by folks these days but for now it don't work. Not for nerbies anyway.
Save yourself sometime with this analogy. Windows is like a telephone. You want to make a call you pick it up and in seconds you are chatting to someone. Ubuntu is like a CB you bought from Tandy. First you have to make it then you can talk to others who have done the same thing about - the same thing. You can twek your CB radio and make it faster or louder or get a new handset. You are happy to do this because you don't have frineds to call in the first place so better working on the phone than with it? HOpe this helps :)

jrusso2

October 3rd, 2007, 06:17 PM

Yes Ubuntu and Linux in general is not for everyone. It still does take some expertise. Windows is easier and most people would probably do better to stay with it.

On the other hand for those with a bit of technical ability, Linux and ubuntu both offer a lot.

Pumalite

October 3rd, 2007, 06:24 PM

Right. There are Linux users and there are others that are not.

julian67

October 3rd, 2007, 06:38 PM

I'm surprised to learn that there is no cut and paste in the terminal.... I guess I've been doing it by sheer willpower or magic ;-)

Nano Geek

October 3rd, 2007, 06:44 PM

I'm surprised to learn that there is no cut and paste in the terminal.... I guess I've been doing it by sheer willpower or magic ;-)Yea, you just have to stare at the text really hard. :)

P.S. Copy in terminal Ctrl+Shift+C
Paste in terminal Ctrl+Shift+V

Nano Geek

October 3rd, 2007, 06:46 PM

Windows is like a bike with training wheels. You can't go very fast or do much, but its easy.

Ubuntu is a big boys bike. It takes time to learn, but when you do you discover how much more you can do with it.

tekkenlord

October 3rd, 2007, 06:51 PM

Samhain13

October 3rd, 2007, 06:58 PM

I got a CD with the card and after installing windows I load the driver for my network card and then connect to the net.

It would have been great if the CD worked with other OSes too, not just with Windows. If it did, you wouldn't have a problem. But it's not Linux's fault that you had a hard time with your network card (nor is it MS's). It's the manufacturer's fault. :D

It's great that some manufacturers are making drivers available to Linux though. Hopefully, there will be more.

But for problems involving driver support, I don't think this is the right place to rant about them. Complain to your hardware manufacturer for not making a driver that's easily installable on your OS of choice. And thank the people who have tried to help you despite the failure-, because it's not they who've cause your problem.

:)

uputer

October 3rd, 2007, 10:54 PM

would that include the thread entitled "ubuntu/linux sucks"? You remember, it's the one that you have since heavily re-edited and re-named and has now been closed by the mods
I meant I haven't posted anything since the one about my perceptions of wireless in Linux.

I posted the 'sucks' one after having several issues and I was frustrated. It was edited because the mods wanted it edited and I wanted to express the frustrations and list the problems I found since it was in the testimonials section. I don't care now about that since, imho, you can't be critical towards Linux/Ubuntu unless it's sugarcoated. But, that's my opinion. I don't want to argue about it.

Do you want to use more 'LOL' icons? Perhaps, you meant to use more? I don't want you to be short.

You could at least meet the minimum standard of simple honesty in your posts. So far you've been insulting, inaccurate and dishonest. It's OK to not be expert, nobody is when they begin, and many of us will never be. It's not OK to blame all your difficulties on other people, be angry with them, insult them and expect them to help you. As well as common problems with wi-fi which you also have enormous difficulties with applications and processes that are mature, well tested and high quality. Does this not suggest that the problem is not with those but with another factor?
That's hypocrtical. I didn't personally attack anyone (RE: "...he's a serial troll..."). I only responded earlier to childish insults toward me because I was harsh in my opinion but it was not personal towards anyone. It was my personal perspective and I thought a lot of Linux users praise Linux but are unfair and cruel to any critics or criticism towards Linux which is totally unjustified. I don't even know where it comes from. It's like an emotional defensiveness that doesn't make sense to me. I guess if you're a coldblooded Windows hater?

I just gave my testimonial and opinion that a lot needs to happen and progress before Linux is more established on the desktop. It came out really negative because of the frustations experienced at the time but I didn't deserve the derisive remarks and abuse expressed in some followups. Like I said, wireless and other issues remain but I don't have anything harsh to say about Linux or any of the distros. It all depends on many factors and I hope the driver problems and compatibility issues improve. I'll use Windows on another computer or partition until it does.

Okay, I'm done arguing with you. I got my points across and if you cannot let it go, I will, anyway. I hope to see improvements in Ubuntu and Linux and will wait until the issues get ironed out. Until then...

uputer

October 3rd, 2007, 11:09 PM

I think it's probably a reaction to the type of Linux user, who's response to any problem about Windows is, "If you had Linux, you wouldn't have the problem". There are a few too many Linux users who are trying to take the throne of Mac users for their annoying, self-righteousness though most Linux users are nice.

It's incredibly frustrating when you people constantly tell you that "Linux is fantastic", "switch to Linux", "you'll have no problems with Linux" and then as soon as you switch over, something which is taken for granted on Windows, doesn't work at all. Unless you really are interested in computers or are a firm supporter of open-source, you can get frustrated really quickly. I remember when I first tested out Linux, I nearly went mad because I couldn't install any drivers for my graphics card.

Unfortunately, Linux is still behind in user-friendliness to people who just want to use their computer and couldn't careless about how it runs or how **** Windows is, once Windows does what they want it to do. Until Linux can provide that, a huge number of Windows users will not switch over to Linux.

Hopefully though, as people become more and more technologically literate, it will swell the ranks of people who are interested in developing open-source software.
Excellent post, BOZG! That sums up a lot of my perspective on it but I do concede that if more hardware companies include Linux drivers and work on them with Linux developers (they co-operate), then the discrepancy or disadvantage Linux might have could narrow in a progressive manner. I just think it's counterproductive for a lot of Linux users to claim 'this is great' or 'this just works.' when it is such a vague statement and for a lot of computer users, isn't exactly accurate. If you want to include, 'I wrote a script to make X work' or 'I added or edited lines using vim or an editor' or 'I build a module...' or.... etc. etc. The point is there may be ways to make 'something' work but more often than not, it needs tweaking that requires knowledge of Linux commands, Unix or some part of Linux (e.g. bz2 files, debian packages, rpms, etc.). Although, even if you progress to the point that you may be described as an intermediate or expert user of Linux, there is still instances in which you reach an obstacle which has only a limited solution. I know this from witnessing people who are very adept at Linux. There are obstacles since there is a lot more development needed. That might come in time. Others probably don't agree with these sentiments. That's okay. As long as we have some choices, that is what really counts. There are some ways to get around with free stuff in Windows. But, it would be an advantage for everyone if Linux keeps improving.

pay

October 3rd, 2007, 11:36 PM

I do concede that if more hardware companies include Linux drivers and work on them with Linux developers (they co-operate), then the discrepancy or disadvantage Linux might have could narrow in a progressive manner.That isn't Linux's fault. Companies either need to develop their own FLOSS drivers like Intel of give us the specs to their hardware, like ati so we can develop our own drivers. Reverse engineering a driver is obviously tedious work and it won't end up being as successfull as a driver built with the companies specs on the hardware.

Having said the, Linux supports most devices. It's just a few main things like wireless (broadcom) and video cards (nvidia) that cause trouble for the end user .

You shouldn't classify every linux user with a sterotypical view. Everyone is different and everyone that uses Linux has their own reasons for using it.

julian67

October 4th, 2007, 04:40 AM

Okay, I'm done arguing with you. I got my points across and if you cannot let it go, I will, anyway.

a sense of deja vu came over me....and not for the first time... :)

uputer

October 4th, 2007, 06:48 AM

That isn't Linux's fault.
I never said that. With that said, is that the kind of attitude to hold, though?

Companies either need to develop their own FLOSS drivers like Intel of give us the specs to their hardware, like ati so we can develop our own drivers. Reverse engineering a driver is obviously tedious work and it won't end up being as successfull as a driver built with the companies specs on the hardware.

Agreed. I hope that ATI is able to develop and improve the graphics drivers soon. I need a graphics card for my other computer still and I don't know whether to go with Nvidia or ATI. I was waiting to see the progression with the drivers since, in theory, ATI has a good chance to have better drivers for Linux right now but I am not sure. I think with Windows, it's an either/or depending on who you talk to. Just guessing there, though.

Having said the, Linux supports most devices. It's just a few main things like wireless (broadcom) and video cards (nvidia) that cause trouble for the end user .

You shouldn't classify every linux user with a sterotypical view. Everyone is different and everyone that uses Linux has their own reasons for using it.
I don't think I was doing that. I was speaking of certain users and those attitudes.

julian67

October 4th, 2007, 08:01 AM

I never said that. With that said, is that the kind of attitude to hold, though?

That's not an attitude or even an opinion, it's a plain verifiable substantial fact. There are a limited number of ways that a driver might be available. There's no magic to it.

1: The manufacturer distributes a driver. This can be free or proprietary.

2: The manufacturer publishes the hardware specification and other people can develop a driver, often in conjunction with the manufacturer. If the driver is good enough it is merged into the kernel.

3. The manufacturer neither offers a driver nor allows access to the hardware specification and the driver is developed by reverse engineering (broadly speaking) by other people. Or it is actually impossible to develop a driver because the manufacturer has made it so difficult (by making the hardware depend on encrypted firmware for example).

For the Windows OS the first example is most typical and is also true for Mac and Linux but to a lesser extent. Manufacturers offer the driver because they want lots of people to use their product. The biggest player in the OS market is MS so there's always a Windows driver, sometimes a Mac or Linux one.

For Linux the second example is common and an ideal situation.

Unfortunately the 3rd example is also very common particularly for wireless cards. It's not something that happens for Windows (except the occasional delay, or failure to support old hardware on new OS) but it does happen for Mac. Apple try to get around this by having total control over the hardware spec of the Mac computer but of course their users will have trouble sometimes with additional hardware like external hard drives, wireless adapters and so on.

There are lots of companies and people dedicating time and resources to developing drivers for Linux but you can't blame the Linux community when the manufacturers don't offer anything....or even deliberately obstruct the process. This might change if companies like Dell, HP and Lenovo can actually use their financial muscle to make manufacturers start to think a bit more about the Linux desktop market. While it might be very frustrating when your hardware doesn't work it does help to know why and it doesn't help to get upset with the people who are actually resolving the situation or blame them or accuse them of having attitude problems when they explain to you why this situation exists.

dougmorin

October 4th, 2007, 03:51 PM

BOZG

October 4th, 2007, 07:30 PM

I understand that you have the fustration which makes you want to completely give up on linux, but be patient and put it away, dont uninstall. Just come back in a month or so after you have had a chance to think about it and give it another go.

I know linux isnt perfect, but in order to give it a chance more people need to use it and not give up on it. Plus, if it doesn't have a feature you want now most likely it will have it in a month or two... or three......

I wouldn't even say come back in month. I installed Linux back in April, used it for a while, got a little frustrated and said I'd take a break and it took me months before I could be bothered going onto Linux. Better to just bite your tongue, punch some walls and keep at it.

dougmorin

October 4th, 2007, 10:54 PM

I know what you mean.... i originally started two years ago (or sometime around then) with fedora core 4 i believe.... i got fustrated and gave up. Back then I was also running dial up and finding a driver to install became more difficult then installing the OS itself. I gave up and came back some time later and installed ubuntu. So far this dist has been incredible with their support and COMMUNITY.... which has been my greatest asset when trying to figure out problems.

liegerm

October 5th, 2007, 04:27 AM

BOZG

October 5th, 2007, 04:28 AM

dougmorin

October 5th, 2007, 08:52 AM

I'm just afraid that they'll get sick of me asking so many questions! I actually like the community more than the OS itself.

honestly though, due to the lack of funding for any linux distro if there was no community then linux would most likely disappear and microsoft would get what it wants :(:mad:

likemindead

October 5th, 2007, 09:41 AM

Black sheep and all, this is an amazing community and it makes all the difference.

julian67

October 5th, 2007, 11:26 AM

honestly though, due to the lack of funding for any linux distro

That's a misconception. Canonical has US $20 million of Mark Shuttleworth's money behind it. openSUSE and SLED and SLES have the huge weight of Novell behind them, Fedora and Red Hat have Red Hat to fund their development and so on. And there are companies like IBM that employ people to develop Linux, or aspects of Linux. There is a lot of money going into developing Linux and Free software in general as well as a lot of people doing it for the love of it.

oneadvent

October 5th, 2007, 11:49 AM

I have installed and reinstalled linux many times. It started with Knoppix and moved to Debian, then to Mandriva, and Suse (both of which did not work at all on my old HP)

I finally came to Ubuntu, and I have stuck with it, though I loved Debian, I like the community around Ubuntu. Since I did this I have gotten ever better at it. The biggest "discovery" I had was .deb files. That is an easy way to install programs that are not in the repos in linux.

Compiling has never worked right for me, so I avoid that like the plague.

One other point: Sometimes it helps just to take a break regroup, and come back for another shot. It is a huge switch from Windows, and there is a lot more things you will need to know. (Mount, unmount, partitioning, boot loaders, file formats, permissions, and basic source vs an executable file information.)

Let him leave. He'll be back. He'll see the things that Windows lacks, and the lack of community there.

PS:
We have an old RH linux machine at work as a server, and that is the sort of thing that will turn anyone off of linux. It hasn't been updated in forever and because we have support on it, they won't even let us put an X server on it.

Drevix

October 5th, 2007, 01:29 PM

To be honest, I don’t see Linux as being a viable alternative to Windows for me. The lack of good hardware support is the killer. The two things I use my computer the most for, graphics and audio, are crap with Linux. I’ve had to spend far too much time trying to find and setup drivers for my hardware that I either had to fight with to get to work or just don’t work at all. What does work barely has any settings or controls to configure or tweak my devices. I’m lucky if I can barely get half of what my system is capable of out of it, and what I can get out of it is well below a level of acceptable quality. I could upgrade my hardware to something that is more Linux compatible, but that would limit my choices to hardware that I don’t want to be using in/on my system.

Programs are another issue. I’m not going to find anything in Linux that comes close to being the equivalent of Photoshop, Wavelab, and Autocad, especially with the amount of customizing I’ve done with them. I’ve tried what programs are available and found them to be severely lacking, to put it politely. If there are commercial versions of those programs available for Linux I won’t be buying them. Sorry, but paying for them once was enough, and I’m not going to waste my time with downloading warez garbage. As for running programs in a virtual ‘whatever’ in Linux, no, I don’t see any advantage to that when I can run them in their native environment with less worry and complication.

I put a lot of time and effort into building my computer systems and I wouldn’t be caught dead with a HP/Compaq/Dell type of computer sitting on my desk. It took years to be able to figure what combinations of various manufacturers hardware components and their various drivers interact and work best together with programs. Motherboard, cpu, memory, audio, video, hard drives, and whatever else, all interacting together with each other and the software that I use to be able to get the best of all its capabilities out of it. I may not have the newest, latest, fanciest, computer and hardware sitting on my desk. But what I do have is something I can be proud of for how well it does work. I’m to change all that to suit Linux? I’m to run my computer at half its capabilities? And for what real purpose? To be able to stick my middle finger up at Bill Gates and MS? Maybe I’m missing the point of Linux but that seems to be the real reason behind Linux, which IMO isn’t anywhere near reason enough.

Yes, yes, yes. It’s not the fault of Linux. It’s the hardware manufacturer’s that won’t provide a good, solid, Linux software/driver base support. It’s the software providers that won’t allow their programs to be fully Linux compatible. And we can all blame MS, Intel, and whoever else for that. But not those who say how much better Linux is, or that Linux will be the future and will someday blow Windows away. Well, I say what’s the freaking holdup? Someday isn’t good enough. Linux should have utterly buried Windows long ago, especially when it has so much potential to do just that.

As much as I hate having to be stuck using Windows, and how much I wish I could dump all the M$ stuff, I just don’t see it happening anytime soon with Linux. I’ll keep Ubuntu on my system, maintain it, and continue learning how to use it, but it won’t be used for anything of great importance. That, sadly, is very disappointing to say the least.

The Linux fanatics will have a fit with this post, I’m sure. But I don’t care because I won’t be here to see any of it.

mivo

October 5th, 2007, 01:38 PM

See the article in my signature in reference to your use of Photoshop, AutoCAD, etc. Linux is not for everyone, or for every area of application, but I would say that for 90% of the home users it works just as well, if not better, than Windows. An exception are games, but again, the average home user does not play high end games.

I would write more, but you said you won't be back to read it, so no point in wasting time. An OS is a tool, not a religion. If Windows works better for someone, then I don't have a problem with it. At least you tried. :)

Steve1961

October 5th, 2007, 01:39 PM

Maybe I’m missing the point of Linux but that seems to be the real reason behind Linux, which IMO isn’t anywhere near reason enough.

I think you're missing the point by a mile. But hey, Linux isn't for everyone and it clearly didn't work for you. Personally, I build all my own PCs with decent hardware and I've never had a problem with graphics or audio. I don't use Linux because I want to, as you put it, stick my middle finger up at Bill Gates and MS. I use it because I prefer it to windows, and it does what I need it to do whilst allowing my to configure it to my hearts content. My wife (a self-confessed techno-phobe), and my three teenage sons also use it out of choice. But choice is what it's all about, so good luck to you, and sorry it didn't work out :)

Tomosaur

October 5th, 2007, 01:49 PM

You admitted yourself that you spent years figuring out how to get the best out of your hardware from Windows, and yet you dismiss Linux because it won't set it up exactly how you like it automatically? Not very fair, is it? :S

Anyway, while I can appreciate your hardware and software gripes - the simple fact of the matter is that you're tied to Windows specific stuff. There's not a whole lot we can do about that, Linux doesn't do what you need it to do. It does what I need it to do very well - so it's different strokes for different folks :)

Take care.

LowSky

October 5th, 2007, 01:49 PM

I dont blame you for using Windows over Ubuntu. You got to use what works, and that is what's most important. I will admit I have not found a good CAD program for linux.

And for what real purpose? To be able to stick my middle finger up at Bill Gates and MS? Maybe I’m missing the point of Linux but that seems to be the real reason behind Linux, which IMO isn’t anywhere near reason enough.

Please keep this in mind:
Linus Torvalds' Linux was never about destroying MS or Bill Gates. It was about making your computer run more effeciently. Torvalds never expected anyone to use his OS. that is why he originally let others use it for free. The idea that Linux is out to destroy Windows was started by Linux zealots who dont want to conform to a certain companies practices.

shad0w_walker

October 5th, 2007, 01:54 PM

I would like to say right now.

We have seen this exact argument a million times over. I have officially stopped caring, if Windows is for you then go back to it, don't hop onto the forums and decide you want to rub your problems in our faces.

I have personally found my hardware a whole load more flexible in settings on Linux, just because it doesn't have a easy GUI doesn't mean it can't be tinkered with and for hardware support, I haven't had any problem outside of Wifi which is being very quickly fixed.

Use what ever the hell happens to work for you, just don't come over here and bitch about problems to us. If you have genuine issues, do something useful, post your hardware to the known non working list, post your bugs, anything other than unproductive rambles about how Linux isn't for you.

aysiu

October 5th, 2007, 02:04 PM

The Linux fanatics will have a fit with this post, I’m sure. Not really. No one is going to have a fit with your post. I'll show you why (in bold): To be honest, I don’t see Linux as being a viable alternative to Windows for me. See? That's why no one is going to have a fit. It's not a viable alternative for you, and that's fine. It's a viable alternative for millions of others, though. To each her own. Programs are another issue. I’m not going to find anything in Linux that comes close to being the equivalent of Photoshop, Wavelab, and Autocad, especially with the amount of customizing I’ve done with them. I really wish people wouldn't keep pushing desktop Linux as a drop-in replacement for Windows or a free version of Windows. You've been sold a wrong bill of goods. Any Linux advocate who's honest with herself would tell you that if you use AutoCAD and depend on that application, switching to Linux is not a good idea.

BLTicklemonster

October 5th, 2007, 02:11 PM

Great post, Aysiu.

I like to look at linux like this: where it is now is like a kid just learning to walk (okay, the linux purists will have a field day with that one, for sure). People keep wanting to see it run in an open field, but it's not there yet. Give the community some time, and you'll see Linux and Open Source come full cycle and have way more stuff to make it competitive on a broader scale. At present, it's a viable alternative to Windows for so many users who have decided that if they own the computer, they want to own the software, too.

ddrichardson

October 5th, 2007, 02:41 PM

Maybe I'm missing something but I really do not understand this type of post.

It offers nothing of any value into an insight into new users plights, nothing towards suggested improvement and certainly isn't going to fall on the ears of anyone who can change it - I mean how many Autocad developers are on this forum?

Is it just about venting? Is it about frustration, anger or is it just a dig at the very people who offer up their free time to help others?

If everything about Windows works so well for this user then why on earth did they even install Ubuntu - there has to have been something on offer or at least something missing from thier current system.

Why do these people feel that I might care? What makes them think that all Linux users are evangelical in thier attitude towards OSs?

So many questions. I don't like to feed the trolls but this really intrigues me - why bother whining about it if you don't care if it changes?

aysiu

October 5th, 2007, 02:49 PM

Is it just about venting? Yes.

conehead77

October 5th, 2007, 02:54 PM

I mean how many Autocad developers are on this forum?
lol, i just asked myself this question. Also there are a lot of people using photoshop excessive so they cant replace it with gimp.
Im not saying OP doesnt need autocad, im just wondering how many of the people saying that really need it.

ryno519

October 5th, 2007, 10:18 PM

I dont blame you for using Windows over Ubuntu. You got to use what works, and that is what's most important. I will admit I have not found a good CAD program for linux.

Please keep this in mind:
Linus Torvalds' Linux was never about destroying MS or Bill Gates. It was about making your computer run more effeciently. Torvalds never expected anyone to use his OS. that is why he originally let others use it for free. The idea that Linux is out to destroy Windows was started by Linux zealots who dont want to conform to a certain companies practices.

Linus Torvalds never wrote an operating system.

http://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-history.html

armandh

October 6th, 2007, 08:05 AM

Linux will not kill MS [another release like vista might nearly do it]
Ubuntu 7.04 is an easy to use mainstream OS with mainstream hardware support. the very old, very odd or very new wont fly but the very new have a better chance given the short release cycle and community support. If you are setup up just the way you like it why change? I started looking for an alternative OS for a few basement castoffs and wound up liking 7,04. it is growing in our household but there is some xp left for apps I cannot change. the wife's vista laptop is next if 7.1 supports the wifi

dougmorin

October 6th, 2007, 01:26 PM

That's a misconception. Canonical has US $20 million of Mark Shuttleworth's money behind it. openSUSE and SLED and SLES have the huge weight of Novell behind them, Fedora and Red Hat have Red Hat to fund their development and so on. And there are companies like IBM that employ people to develop Linux, or aspects of Linux. There is a lot of money going into developing Linux and Free software in general as well as a lot of people doing it for the love of it.

I didnt realize there was so much funding backing linux and its distro's... thats pretty cool

Thanks for pointing that out :)

ddrichardson

October 6th, 2007, 03:08 PM

Actually as venting seems to be in vogue - the more of these posts I see the more I feel like saying "Cheerio - don't let the door hit you in the *** on the way out.

Linux will not kill MS [another release like vista might nearly do it]
Let's not fool ourselves. Windows ME didn't kill MS and neither did XP - infact people now frequently suggest XP to be the best version of Windows.

As long as Windows is supported with drivers, software and is OEM installed with just about every PC out there then Windows has a pretty much unsurmountable advantage over Linux.

The fact remains however that Ubuntu does what it says on the tin and provides me what I need, many users feel the same way and even if it never knocks Windows off the top spot then there are still enough users out there that development is worthwhile.

Moreover, the desktop seems to be the only area where MS is still dominant - embedded systems and servers are heavily Linux dominated.

Not that we should rest on this because the immenent release of Windows Home Server may make some inroads into Linux's popularity as a home server OS.

floke

October 6th, 2007, 03:28 PM

Any Linux advocate who's honest with herself would tell you that if you use AutoCAD and depend on that application, switching to Linux is not a good idea.

Actually it runs perfectly under Wine. I recently read an article about an architects firm in South Africa who switched to *nix after discovering this.

Who cares about pointless rants like this anyway. What's the point of coming here to say it doesn't work? What a waste of effort.

uputer

October 6th, 2007, 06:14 PM

Yet wireless still doesn't work very well in any distro including Ubuntu.

uputer

October 6th, 2007, 06:19 PM

It's a shame the starter of this thread didn't go in to a little more detail. Maybe Ubuntu should have a pre-prepared 'I'm leaving Ubuntu or Linux because...' form?

Anyway, I share his frustration about 1. package management and 2. wireless.

1. Why are there two or three different ways to manage packages? Which should you use? Why do they show different things from each other?

2. I've only ever been able to get Feisty to work with wireless without WEP or WPA security which is not good enough for me or a lot of other people.

Look, I'm not a total noobie, I've used Ubuntu since Hoary and I love it, but it's not perfect and needs improving in some areas. We need to listen to these people and take heed and stop bitching at the Windows users who give us feedback and at each other.

But, not enough people listen. They would rather insult someone than discuss the facts or suggest areas of improvement. Can you find any 'out of the box' tutorials for a USB wireless device/dongle in any Linux distro? No. There is none. Yet, no one is willing to mention this and suggest that is an issue of concern. I notice a lot of Linux users would rather make excuses and criticize someone who is having problems and mentioning this issue. This is about experiences so if it is negative in this area, why is that provoking so much dissent? I would like to share experiences so that I can help but I don't think it's a bad thing to say, 'this is not working.'

With that said, there are a lot of people who understand and recognize the difficulties.

shad0w_walker

October 6th, 2007, 06:22 PM

This thread reminds me of the Why thread, hilarious thread by a troll trying to convince everyone that Windows is better than Ubuntu and that everyone using Ubuntu is just brain washed.

southernman

October 6th, 2007, 06:24 PM

Yet wireless still doesn't work very well in any distro including Ubuntu.
You speak in general terms, yet you mean it doesn't work for you, and the other threads you've read. Wireless works well for far more people than you are able to understand... apparently.

If Ubuntu is lagging so far behind mainstream mindset as you hint at, the surely you think Dell is a big bunch of idiots for adding Feisty Fawn to their foray of preinstalled OS choices... no?

asaturn

October 6th, 2007, 06:27 PM

no wireless support? I guess if you're using a wireless-b card from 1995 or something... or something that JUST came out and for some reason isn't supported by anything but Windows Vista...

and no ability to install software? what software? I have only had trouble getting things like windows media to work in firefox... VLC should play it but getting VLC to work in firefox is a hassle

uputer

October 6th, 2007, 06:34 PM

You speak in general terms, yet you mean it doesn't work for you, and the other threads you've read. Wireless works well for far more people than you are able to understand... apparently.

If Ubuntu is lagging so far behind mainstream mindset as you hint at, the surely you think Dell is a big bunch of idiots for adding Feisty Fawn to their foray of preinstalled OS choices... no?
This was bugging me so I went to other distro forums. Go check but there are no recent posts of any kind of the following setup working (in particular, out of the box or easy config):
* desktop, wireless usb device, router, WPA

None. What does that have to do with me except that I'm asserting this configuration setup is difficult to obtain. I am not talking about laptops. Laptops are configured by their manufacturers to have VERY COMMON network configurations for 'out of the box' wireless connections with whatever OS is used. Many laptops have INTEL for wireless, right? But, if you need wireless for your desktop, you have several decisions to make (usb or pci? Which manufacturer/brand? Then you need to figure out the chipset etc. etc.). I know this is a major problem for Linux (developers and driver writers) but I am saying, 'this is a major issue, isn't it?' If people were dumping their desktops for laptops in droves, it wouldn't be much of an issue relatively speaking but right now...

Imho, it is a defining issue showing a difference in the current status between Windows and Linux. No one will agree but that is fine.

I know ndiswrapper and doing a lot of configuring might allow a usb device to work and there are some posts of people claiming doing several terminal tasks got their devices to work. Those have been short threads, though, and not providing a lot of detailed info (imho).

I want to use Linux more but I really want to have a wireless connection. Forgive me for my complaints and assertions. I hope I can find a solution soon. ;-)

jbaerbock

October 6th, 2007, 06:42 PM

Yet wireless still doesn't work very well in any distro including Ubuntu.

Works fine for me. all you need is the windows driver and install it with ndiswrapper, using the newish GUI it isn't any more difficult than installing a driver in windows. If you have the slightest hint of a brain cell you can get it working in no time. Granted there are some cards that give major troubles (my broadcom is one of them) but you can get them working anyway if you do enough research. Also PCLinuxOS 2007 has the easiest way to install and activate said drivers and cards.

Going back to a previous comment about taking a break. I agree because I have taken breaks along the way. This is why when starting to learn Linux it is important to have what you are used to on backup. For me I still dual boot just so I have WinXP there when I decide I need a break. Mater of fact I just took a break to windows and what I know well but after a week I came back for many reasons. First I missed the terminal (yeah amazing huh?) and second at work they make you install crappy "protection" software for windows to keep it "secure". Well the auto install never has worked right on my laptop so I installed Linux and I don't even have to go past any checks to access the internet. There are many more reasons I came back (Synaptic package managing for one) but just wanted to name a few.

Is Linux more difficult to figure out, for some. Is Linux less user friendly than windows, depends on the user. I remember going from Windows 3.1 to Windows 95 and it took a long time to get used to it and figure everything out. I remember when Win98 stepped further away from DOS and I remember when later Windows OSs stepped farther away yet from the old I knew, Dos.

Was this difficult, yes. Did it take some getting used to, yes. But we has human beings are built to adapt. And adapt we will regardless of the situation.

julian67

October 6th, 2007, 06:46 PM

Yet wireless still doesn't work very well in any distro including Ubuntu.

Again you make a universal assertion based on an individual experience. Wireless works brilliantly well in Linux with supported chipsets. I use variously Intel and Zydas wireless and it is flawless, superior to using the same hardware with Windows, either managed by Windows or by 3rd party applications.

If you have a wireless adapter that cannot be made to work in Linux and it's a dealbreaker for you then there are a couple of things to consider. One possibility is to switch back to using an OS where your hardware is supported. Another possibility is to buy a USB wireless adapter that is fully supported. I can buy one here in UK for the equivalent of US $16. Either is better than continually being dissatisfied (and feeling the need to tell people how bad your experience is).

I have had wireless work equally well with both wep and wpa in Ubuntu, Mepis, Antix, Fedora, Zenwalk (with some config required), openSUSE, SLED, Sabayon and a few others too. For a laptop user network-manager with a supported card is a really superior solution to anything I used in Windows. It works very well. Right now my desktop is my gateway connecting wirelessly via Safecom USB wifi (Zydas chipset) to a D-Link wireless router. I'm using Firestarter and DHCP on this desktop to share the connection to any PC or Laptop I connect wired here (strange set up due to old house with extemely thick signal blocking stone walls...it's easiest to put my usb wi-fi adapter on a extra long usb cable, sling it over a wooden beam so it's suspended mid air where it can catch the signal and attach the USB cable permanently to my desktop and then connect my laptops with a cat 5 cable when I need to sync my mail etc). nm-applet and well supported wireless and ethernet cards make the process simple and transparent. I remember setting up simple home network/ICS in XP being a hideous nightmare of software firewall problems, numerous reboots, everything failing if you booted in the wrong sequence...miserable experience....and that was with simple ethernet adapters.

uputer

October 6th, 2007, 06:46 PM

What is so bad about saying, "X is not working for me... tried it... had problems...?"

No one has explained it yet. Why is anyone doing so, a troll? You think this person thought, 'I have nothing to do... I want to provoke everyone in the Ubuntu forums by saying I tried to use A and B applications but they didn't work for me and there wasn't a sufficient alternative to the closest Windows app?'

C'mon, people. Why have a Testimonial and Experiences section of the forum if you can't do that? You just want to read, "Ubuntu is great... everything worked...I am in heaven... praise the Ubuntu gods.....?"

Have a 'I'm so happy..." section, then.

Do the mods require these 'experiences' because of Canonical or something?

I don't see why someone can't post something 'negative' without being called names or mocked.

I think the negative experiences can suggest areas of improvement and that can cover 'training', areas in which developers need to concentrate on and many others. I think Unix/Linux courses would be good for general purpose anticipation if Linux progresses even more. I think suggesting people spend time using it despite the problems is also good. I'm trying to. I mention 'wireless' as a major issue but for constructive means. I don't see anything constructive in criticizing someone for saying 'it didn't work for me.' I think it's better to be supportive. I have read such posts and I think those people have the right idea. IMHO.

uputer

October 6th, 2007, 06:55 PM

I use variously Intel and Zydas wireless and it is flawless, superior to using the same hardware with Another possibility is to buy a USB wireless adapter that is fully supported. I can buy one here in UK for the equivalent of US $16. Either is better than continually being dissatisfied (and feeling the need to tell people how bad your experience is).

I have had wireless work equally well with both wep and wpa in Ubuntu, Mepis, Antix, Fedora, Zenwalk (with some config required), openSUSE, SLED, Sabayon and a few others too. For a laptop user network-manager with a supported card is a really superior solution to anything I used in Windows. It works very well. Right now my desktop is my gateway connecting wirelessly via Safecom USB wifi (Zydas chipset) to a D-Link wireless router. I'm using Firestarter and DHCP on this desktop to share the connection to any PC or Laptop I connect wired here (strange set up due to old house with extemely thick signal blocking stone walls...it's easiest to put my usb wi-fi adapter on a extra long usb cable, sling it over a wooden beam so it's suspended mid air where it can catch the signal and attach the USB cable permanently to my desktop and then connect my laptops with a cat 5 cable when I need to sync my mail etc). nm-applet and well supported wireless and ethernet cards make the process simple and transparent. I remember setting up simple home network/ICS in XP being a hideous nightmare of software firewall problems, numerous reboots, everything failing if you booted in the wrong sequence...miserable experience....and that was with simple ethernet adapters.
I bought my usb adapter for $23 and only AFTER I researched and decided I bought one supported for Linux. It's a Zydas chipset.

Read my other posts, I explained it in full detail. Anyway, it's a Belkin F5D7050 v.4000, usb dongle, Zydas chipset 1211b with zd1211rw driver. I checked and learned several commands in the Terminal (command line) in order to find out all this info. I still couldn't get it to work. It did connect at first but somehow I lost the connection and it has never returned.

I have a WRT54G Linksys router and would like WPA/TKIP to be used. I only stated it's a major issue because I read that other people with the same hardware having similar problems (e.g. it working at first and then not).

If you can explain what I can do to get it to work, then I will offer to help with a tutorial or send msgs to anyone with similar chipset/usb adapter combo so that they can get theirs to work, too.

julian67

October 6th, 2007, 06:58 PM

This was bugging me so I went to other distro forums. Go check but there are no recent posts of any kind of the following setup working (in particular, out of the box or easy config):
* desktop, wireless usb device, router, WPA

None. ............................Forgive me for my complaints and assertions. I hope I can find a solution soon. ;-)

err why would people post their working set ups to a support forum??? doh.
And as you can see I have all the above working beautifully :lolflag: So you are wrong again (are you keeping count??????)

Anyway here it is for your pleasure and delectation, the never before seen and legendary fully working home LAN with hitherto thought to be impossible mix of Wi Fi, Ethernet and Linux Goodness....cue drumroll and dancing girls.......

ADSL
↓
D-Link Wireless modem/router
↓
USB Wi Fi adapter connected Desktop with Firestarter running ICS and DHCP and Realtek ethernet
↓
LAN

edit: and yes it's WPA wi fi

edit:

Install method for Zydas wireless: plug it in. Done.

You had it working and now it doesn't. What (or who) is the variable in that equation?

Further tutorials available via google and Ubuntu forums and community docs at no charge

sstusick

October 6th, 2007, 07:03 PM

Yet wireless still doesn't work very well in any distro including Ubuntu.
I don't know what you are talking about, but my wireless card works fine on Ubuntu. I didn't have to configure it or anything. EVERYTHING on my machine works OUT OF THE BOX in Ubuntu. I can't say the same for Windows. Anyone that says that of Windows had better get their head out of the sand because they have no clue on what they are talking about. Now just because something doesn't work for you, doesn't mean that is the case for every user. Have you tried EVERY distro? I don't think so. Now get your head out of the sand and stop being ignorant. Instead of crying about your problems, FIX THEM. If you don't have Linux compatible hardware, then buy it. If not, stick with Windows.

uputer

October 6th, 2007, 07:05 PM

southernman

October 6th, 2007, 07:07 PM

This was bugging me so I went to other distro forums. Go check but there are no recent posts of any kind of the following setup working (in particular, out of the box or easy config):
* desktop, wireless usb device, router, WPA

None. What does that have to do with me except that I'm asserting this configuration setup is difficult to obtain. I am not talking about laptops. Laptops are configured by their manufacturers to have VERY COMMON network configurations for 'out of the box' wireless connections with whatever OS is used. Many laptops have INTEL for wireless, right? But, if you need wireless for your desktop, you have several decisions to make (usb or pci? Which manufacturer/brand? Then you need to figure out the chipset etc. etc.). I know this is a major problem for Linux (developers and driver writers) but I am saying, 'this is a major issue, isn't it?' If people were dumping their desktops for laptops in droves, it wouldn't be much of an issue relatively speaking but right now...

Imho, it is a defining issue showing a difference in the current status between Windows and Linux. No one will agree but that is fine.

I know ndiswrapper and doing a lot of configuring might allow a usb device to work and there are some posts of people claiming doing several terminal tasks got their devices to work. Those have been short threads, though, and not providing a lot of detailed info (imho).

I want to use Linux more but I really want to have a wireless connection. Forgive me for my complaints and assertions. I hope I can find a solution soon. ;-)

Frankly, I don't blame you at all for being/getting agitated at any issue you have making Ubuntu work for you. We've all been there at some point in time. Persistence pays off though. If you can't solve the issue, then have you filed a bug report against it? (I've asked you that before and you never replied either way that I saw)

Coming to the forums to complain that this don't work... that WON"T work and so on, is futile to say the least. It's nothing more than haphazard venting, due to the simple fact, the developers don't sit here waiting for problems to be brought up. They hang out, for the most part, at launchpad working on true resolution seekers problems or hacking away on Gutsy.

You mention a factoid about some of the howto's you've read not being very long or detailed... If you'd like, I already have prepared a detailed listing with key points and links to threads you started where you didn't follow through... or just quit (most of them very short themselves). I've held off on posting it for a number of reasons, but if you insist on my proof... I'll be happy to oblige you. ;)

One more rebuttal to your reply quoted above: Typically, when things just work "out of the box" (or with minor tweaking), your not going to see post of that nature with the frequency you see them if the opposite happens. Personally, I am not denying that *nix as a whole has a way to go yet. What I do deny is, that it is as widespread as you and others claim. If, as a windows user, you've never edited the registry settings (for example), then *nix may not be ready for you at this point in time. However, *nix as a whole has progressed leaps and bounds since I first tried Red Hat 7.3

I don't know if you got them, but I both pm'ed and emailed you links and suggestions to some things I thought you may find interesting... and hopefully helpful. With that being said, I'd suggest to you that part of the negativity you experienced in the forum (as well as your *nix experience) could have simply been caused by your own inner intentions and thoughts. On the subconscious level I am speaking of.

I don't mean to antagonize you, so don't take it that way. When I first replied to one of your post, I'll admit I was being a bit defensive... border line "fanboy." But my focus has changed since then.

sstusick

October 6th, 2007, 07:12 PM

uputer

October 6th, 2007, 07:17 PM

Frankly, I don't blame you at all for being/getting agitated at any issue you have making Ubuntu work for you. We've all been there at some point in time. Persistence pays off though. If you can't solve the issue, then have you filed a bug report against it? (I've asked you that before and you never replied either way that I saw)

Coming to the forums to complain that this don't work... that WON"T work and so on, is futile to say the least. It's nothing more than haphazard venting, due to the simple fact, the developers don't sit here waiting for problems to be brought up. They hang out, for the most part, at launchpad working on true resolution seekers problems or hacking away on Gutsy.

You mention a factoid about some of the howto's you've read not being very long or detailed... If you'd like, I already have prepared a detailed listing with key points and links to threads you started where you didn't follow through... or just quit (most of them very short themselves). I've held off on posting it for a number of reasons, but if you insist on my proof... I'll be happy to oblige you. ;)

One more rebuttal to your reply quoted above: Typically, when things just work "out of the box" (or with minor tweaking), your not going to see post of that nature with the frequency you see them if the opposite happens. Personally, I am not denying that *nix as a whole has a way to go yet. What I do deny is, that it is as widespread as you and others claim. If, as a windows user, you've never edited the registry settings (for example), then *nix may not be ready for you at this point in time.
I am not sure if it is a bug yet. I might add to a 'bug report' if it relates but to start one from scratch, I don't think I'm qualified yet to assume a bug is present. There must be thousands or more bug claims all the time and I would want to be certain something is truly 'buggy.'

The rest of what you say, I don't disagree with. I'm not sure what links you speak of, though. I have tried so many things to not get anywhere. I did learn a lot so I took some positive things from it. It's just disappointing to only have wireless working in Windows, though. I have edited the registry in Windows before, btw.

I don't know if anything would be any different in Gutsy. I did try a Kubuntu 7.10 Gutsy LiveCD, though, but I wasn't able to connect with the wireless usb. I was hoping the related driver was pre-compiled into the kernel but whether it is or not, I could not get a wireless connection.

julian67

October 6th, 2007, 07:18 PM

I did buy Linux compatible hardware or so I thought. It's a usb adapter. Not a card. I guess I should buy a card? :-/ I was hoping at least 1 USB adapter would work, though.

Windows is better in that dept. no matter what you think. If people are saying that the drivers are made for Windows and that is one of the problems (Linux faces), how can you say Windows is not better in that regard? You make no sense.

But in Linux I didn't need to install a driver it just worked. In Windows I had to go through the new hardware detection process, install a driver and reboot and then go through the new hardware detection process again.... And you're telling me Windows is better no matter what I think. You're not just wrong you're deluded. This card will work in Ubuntu, if you google this forum and others like Linux Questions you 'll find people get it working. I have no idea what you have done with your OS but if I were you I would back up my personal data and re-install with the usb adapter connected and see what happens. If it doesn't work then use ndiswrapper. There are plenty of good clear tutorials you can follow step by step....if you can be bothered to even look and try them. If that doesn't work then use Windows for a few months and try out Gutsy and similar live CDs as they are released to see if your hardware will work.

ddrichardson

October 6th, 2007, 07:20 PM

I think the negative experiences can suggest areas of improvement and that can cover 'training', areas in which developers need to concentrate on and many others. I think Unix/Linux courses would be good for general purpose anticipation if Linux progresses even more. I think suggesting people spend time using it despite the problems is also good. I'm trying to. I mention 'wireless' as a major issue but for constructive means. I don't see anything constructive in criticizing someone for saying 'it didn't work for me.' I think it's better to be supportive. I have read such posts and I think those people have the right idea. IMHO.

The OP isn't suggesting improvement - they are complaining that Windows better suits thier needs, which is what everyone is on about - it makes no sense to complain about Ubuntu in this way.

BTW Ubuntu courses are on thier way from Canonical.

sstusick

October 6th, 2007, 07:22 PM

NotoriousMOK

October 6th, 2007, 07:26 PM

Let him leave. He'll be back. He'll see the things that Windows lacks, and the lack of community there.

As this thread is nearing 2 years old, he may we BE back for all we know.

This marks my 3rd dive into trying to make sense of and use a Linux OS. My first attempt was in the early 90's when i got it on a floppy-floppy disk in the back of a 'dummies' or similar book, then again around y2k, and this most recent attempt just a few days ago.

I mention this in hopes to inspire others who might be frustrated as well. This go has been much less confusing than my prior attempts and I'm just amazed at how much things have improved. Sure, there's much that somebody 'coming from the dark side' has to wrap his head around to make the transition, but again it's so much easier now with the amount of information that is available immediately to the new guy if he's willing to adjust some of the though patterns beat into us from using Windows etc.

I'm using a Toshiba laptop (Tecra M3) dual booting with WinXP (a must for now because my industry standard software [Calyx Point] does not support any OS aside from 2000/XP/Vista and this is unlikely to change any time soon). Just about everything worked right out of the 'box' (LiveCD) including my SD card reader, internal wifi, and even my video (though video scrolling was a little choppy until I downloaded whatever widget I needed -- it was so easy I hardly remember being confronted with the problem much less what I did to resolve it).

After moving my critical data to another location, my install took about 35 minutes including downloading updates over a weak wireless connection. My Windows XP had gotten infested with the usual garbage and since I had all my data backed up already, I decided to reload WinXP+Office with a clean copy. Between the two packages and online MS updates that wiped out about 2 hours of my time and I had to spend about an hour to find and install 13 (yes THIRTEEN) drivers for devices that Windows could not identify much less install on its own. By comparison, I had to only address 1 item (video) when I installed Ubuntu. WOW.

I've still got quirks to work out (getting my Outlook data, and finding support for or a workaround on an unsupported firewire device) but I don't see any barriers that cannot be passed, so I think this time I may just be able to stick with it. (BTW please don't bother addressing the outlook&firewire topics here, I'm already dealing with those in other locations)

Anyways (I guess I kinda ran on here) if you're considering bailing on Linux, you're in the right place if you can read this, so dual-boot if you need to but hang in there because if you're having trouble, you're definately not alone and if you speak up and ask for help, you're likely to get it like rainfall around here. Try it with MS, and you're nobody except dollar number 987634543.

Have fun.

uputer

October 6th, 2007, 07:59 PM

But in Linux I didn't need to install a driver it just worked. In Windows I had to go through the new hardware detection process, install a driver and reboot and then go through the new hardware detection process again.... And you're telling me Windows is better no matter what I think. You're not just wrong you're deluded. This card will work in Ubuntu, if you google this forum and others like Linux Questions you 'll find people get it working. I have no idea what you have done with your OS but if I were you I would back up my personal data and re-install with the usb adapter connected and see what happens. If it doesn't work then use ndiswrapper. There are plenty of good clear tutorials you can follow step by step....if you can be bothered to even look and try them. If that doesn't work then use Windows for a few months and try out Gutsy and similar live CDs as they are released to see if your hardware will work.
Okay, which card? If there is a card which makes it easy, it is always an option although I didn't want to use up a pci slot.

So, you didn't have to install a driver, so what? That is the exception, not the rule. I will guess that in 80% of the cases, the Windows usb device (especially, in comparison) will work without much trouble compared to a Linux configuration. Yeah, the hardware manufacturers are thumbing their nose at Linux but so what? That is the reality. That is all I'm saying. It should not be a cause for argument. If anything, it is promoting the need for some collaboration between hardware manufacturers, the device driver writers, Linux developers and whoever can help advance the overall project.

More motherboards are getting extra usb ports all the time. Therefore, on desktops, the usb adapters offer a great convenience. For laptops, the PCMCIA adapters are still king but even the USB type of adapters offer many advantages for laptops. So, if you are going to argue that Windows has no advantage in this area and disregard my assertions that it is of utmost importance that Linux is able to convince device driver writers (from the manufacturers) and developers alike to work on this, then I'm talking to a wall.

uputer

October 6th, 2007, 08:14 PM

What do you mean? He is giving his experience with it. He wants to use graphics and audio programs but they weren't to his satisfaction. Perhaps, he didn't spend enough time on it? But, I still ask, why the harsh criticism and beration?

It's not just Ubuntu. People are going to walk away from Linux distros if they can't get things to work. Not everybody will be willing to 'reinvent the wheel' with their computers. Not everyone can spend time configuring, learning the command line and building modules or compiling from source.

I think there are programs that he could find useful but I am not criticizing the OP in any way. I think if you can accept the frustrations, you can work with those people rather than against them. If you want the Linux community to progress, you need to be understanding rather than antagonistic and apathetic.

jbaerbock

October 6th, 2007, 08:16 PM

Okay, which card? If there is a card which makes it easy, it is always an option although I didn't want to use up a pci slot.

So, you didn't have to install a driver, so what? That is the exception, not the rule. I will guess that in 80% of the cases, the Windows usb device (especially, in comparison) will work without much trouble compared to a Linux configuration. Yeah, the hardware manufacturers are thumbing their nose at Linux but so what? That is the reality. That is all I'm saying. It should not be a cause for argument. If anything, it is promoting the need for some collaboration between hardware manufacturers, the device driver writers, Linux developers and whoever can help advance the overall project.

More motherboards are getting extra usb ports all the time. Therefore, on desktops, the usb adapters offer a great convenience. For laptops, the PCMCIA adapters are still king but even the USB type of adapters offer many advantages for laptops. So, if you are going to argue that Windows has no advantage in this area and disregard my assertions that it is of utmost importance that Linux is able to convince device driver writers (from the manufacturers) and developers alike to work on this, then I'm talking to a wall.

Point is the entire Linux community is pushing the driver developers of the major companies to open source them. ATI just started open sourcing their actual drivers. it happens but slowly so just have patience.

sstusick

October 6th, 2007, 08:20 PM

What irritates me is, when people say Linux is not ready. Who are you to make that assumption? It is based upon a user's needs. If Linux is not ready for you, then say so. Just don't say "Linux is not ready." That may be the case for you, but not others.

GavinZac

October 6th, 2007, 08:21 PM

Well, I say what’s the freaking holdup?
you've answered this yourself.
manufacturer’s that won’t provide a good, solid, Linux software/driver base support

The Linux fanatics will have a fit with this post, I’m sure. But I don’t care because I won’t be here to see any of it.why did you waste our time then, posting nothing of value that we havent heard before? (though I'm skeptical that you wont be back if you intend on maintaining ubuntu)

besides, Linux != Ubuntu. You experiences on Ubuntu/Debian could be entirely different from those on openSUSE or Mandriva or Red Hat or...

sstusick

October 6th, 2007, 08:42 PM

Why would the OP bother posting this thread if he wasn't going to read the replies? And why do we bother posting if the OP says he won't be able to see any of it? This Makes no sense to me.

GavinZac

October 6th, 2007, 08:43 PM

Why would the OP bother posting this thread if he was going to read the replies? And why do we bother posting if the OP says he won't be able to see any of it? This Makes no sense to me.

mostly my lack of belief that he isnt just reading having logged out.

Besides, given microsoft's recent smear campaign against all things linux, and this guy's cookie cutter referal to ubuntu as 'linux', im guessing this is a redmond employee fulfilling his weekly forum trolling quota.

SpiritIsReality

October 6th, 2007, 09:06 PM

howdy

I don't care what you call it. and you can buy all you want too.

buds

jbaerbock

October 6th, 2007, 10:03 PM

JBull

October 7th, 2007, 02:51 AM

These testimonials are definitely useful. I participate in other forums (non-linux) where folks are considering switching to linux. I always suggest Ubuntu for newbies and this is a great place to refer them. I think this is an honest testimonial and right on target. Each person should make an informed decision and this type of post provides good honest information.

I went through the same process as the OP, trying first Debian then Red Hat and Fedora Core 4. Finally I'm back using Debian. For a while I gave up on linux, then came back a year later. Now I've completely purged windows from my household. But there are still plenty of things I don't like about linux. For the specific things I do (related to processing meteorological data) I find linux perfect. For other things like supporting hardware, advanced image and sound processing I find linux can at times be a nightmare.

My decision is to "tough it out" wit hardware problems and limited quality apps. The linux benefits for my situation outweigh the bad. But for each person that situation may be different. Let's hear what everyone has to say.

Cannaregio

October 7th, 2007, 03:37 AM

I’m to run my computer at half its capabilities?

I take offence at that, Sir. Besides, it runs against my own experience.
In fact that's the very reason I switched to GNU/Linux: in order NOT to run my computer at half his capabilities.

As for your 'graphical' problems: yes, it might take some time, but a solution will come.
Again based on my experience: Poser, a 3D windows application, didn't work at all in GNU/Linux, through wine, last year. No version run.
I managed to run Poser 6 in U buntu, with good rendering speed but with some posing problems some months ago.
Now I have Poser 7 running in wine and Gutsy beta - and not only rendering much more quickly than in windows xp, but also without any posing problem anymore.
That could already be enough, for my needs, but I'm also confident that either the poser programmers will release a linux version or the linux community will create an alternative -and better- program in due time (pheraphs even the now ridiculed makehuman, we'll see).

Samo with photoshop/gimp. You can either run photoshop through wine (and it runs flawlessly now) or learn the gimp and discover, to your amazement, that it is no more a "poor parent" of photoshop.
Gimp looked almost ludicrous vis-à-vis photoshop years ago. Now it's a serious contender. Power of collective ameliorating and community work against commercial work. Community work starts slowly, but has a very powerful inertia :-)
Methinks adobe might even risk being left behind if they don't jump on the Linux bandwagon :-)
Methinks the future of commercial software looks VERY bleak :-)

Back to your absurd, and maybe trolling intended, statement, Sir:
I’m to run my computer at half its capabilities?
Nope, you'r running your computer at half its capabilities now under windows, poor thing. And you even have, under windows, those crap DRMs and all the sniffers to battle against, as an added disadvantage.

But, this said, in order to trim your box in GNU/Linux you'll have to invest some work (exactly as you did in windows).
SO Drevix: belly in, keep straight, stop trolling, roll up your sleeves! The power is yours for the taking!

julian67

October 7th, 2007, 04:23 AM

Okay, which card?

Safecom SWMULZ-5400 (http://safecom.cn/code/sub/category.asp?prdid=321&subcatid=41)

They even have the tux logo on the product box and on the website description for every product they have which supports Linux. It's an excellent wi fi adapter. It works out of the box with recent kernels and the driver CD has the usual Windows and Mac driver and also Linux driver for people using older kernels.

ddrichardson

October 7th, 2007, 06:36 AM

What do you mean? He is giving his experience with it. He wants to use graphics and audio programs but they weren't to his satisfaction. Perhaps, he didn't spend enough time on it? But, I still ask, why the harsh criticism and beration?Because as the OP said in his post, he isn't coming back so it's hardly constructive critiscism. In any event, remarks suggesting Ubuntu utilises only half his computers potential are misleading and aimed only at putting off new users.

It's not just Ubuntu. People are going to walk away from Linux distros if they can't get things to work. Not everybody will be willing to 'reinvent the wheel' with their computers. Not everyone can spend time configuring, learning the command line and building modules or compiling from source.This is said time and again and it's a ludicrous argument. Linux is NOT Windows or OSX. In the same way that Windows will never change from being a message based OS as that is how it was designed, Linux will always have some things that need to be configured from the command line because that is how it was designed. Sure there is room for improvement, but realistically, given that hardware support is mostly provided by the community and not the manufacturers there will always be some hardware that isn't as easily configurable is it is in Windows.

It certainly isn't reinventing the wheel, it's just different - if people coming to Linux expect a drop in replacement for Windows where everything is the same then they are in for a surprise. Ubuntu, like all Linux distributions is a UNIX variant and therefore works like UNIX not Windows!

As for the modules question - really, how many people have had to compile a module? And in context - should that hardware not work under windows is there even a mechanism to implement your own driver?

I think there are programs that he could find useful but I am not criticizing the OP in any way. I think if you can accept the frustrations, you can work with those people rather than against them. If you want the Linux community to progress, you need to be understanding rather than antagonistic and apathetic.Given that you don't know who I am any more than I know who you are, this is quite an offensive statement given the amount of time I spend developing for the Ubuntu community and Linux in general. Working with people doesn't mean blithely excepting every critiscism and suggestion and implementing it - sometimes, as in this case, the suggestions either aren't there or aren't worth implementing.

uputer

October 7th, 2007, 06:54 AM

Safecom SWMULZ-5400 (http://safecom.cn/code/sub/category.asp?prdid=321&subcatid=41)

They even have the tux logo on the product box and on the website description for every product they have which supports Linux. It's an excellent wi fi adapter. It works out of the box with recent kernels and the driver CD has the usual Windows and Mac driver and also Linux driver for people using older kernels.

You also wrote:
Install method for Zydas wireless: plug it in. Done.

You had it working and now it doesn't. What (or who) is the variable in that equation?

Further tutorials available via google and Ubuntu forums and community docs at no charge
Where is that?

So, you still are using the same attiude. "I got mine working...naner naner na..." etc. How does that help? So, you stuck the adapter in and poof, it worked? You didn't use ONE application to do anything? Wow, that's impressive.

Here are some links:
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-source-2.6.20/+bug/74362
http://lists.debian.org/debian-kernel/2007/09/msg01046.html
http://suseforums.net/index.php?showtopic=37809

There are several more like this or detailing experience with usb adapters with the Zydas chipset.

So, I guess, you are lucky to get a special device that 'just works.'

uputer

October 7th, 2007, 07:01 AM

Given that you don't know who I am any more than I know who you are, this is quite an offensive statement given the amount of time I spend developing for the Ubuntu community and Linux in general. Working with people doesn't mean blithely excepting every critiscism and suggestion and implementing it - sometimes, as in this case, the suggestions either aren't there or aren't worth implementing.
You didn't say anything in your post that hasn't been said before. I've heard all that ad nauseum. Why are you so offended, really? The OP was frustrated and said he's going to have Ubuntu nearby so if it improves significantly or he decides to try it again, he could be back.

Surely, you've heard posts like that and seen that before?

I thought the atmosphere and environment you would want here is of tolerance and understanding? I guess not. This section is about experiences so people can rant and let their frustations go? If they do decide to keep plugging away, some people might volunteer to help?

Yet, your post suggests the community is closed to anyone who doesn't react in the 'preferred "rah rah" manner'? That is rather close-minded and unrealistic, isn't it?

I spent hours trying to get wireless to work and am not offended if someone posts, saying they couldn't get wireless or some other aspect working. Not everyone can have a wonderful experience and regardless of what they expect to find out of Linux, certain failures can be especially frustrating. It's feasible and expected that a lot of computer users would be looking for a way out of the Windows stranglehold. That could be good, don't you think so?

Lord Illidan

October 7th, 2007, 07:14 AM

I agree with the OP, for some things, Linux is not ready. However, I commend his action as to maintain a dualboot system. It's the same thing I did 4 years ago, and then I switched gradually to Linux.

Programs are another issue. I’m not going to find anything in Linux that comes close to being the equivalent of Photoshop, Wavelab, and Autocad, especially with the amount of customizing I’ve done with them. I’ve tried what programs are available and found them to be severely lacking, to put it politely. If there are commercial versions of those programs available for Linux I won’t be buying them. Sorry, but paying for them once was enough, and I’m not going to waste my time with downloading warez garbage. As for running programs in a virtual ‘whatever’ in Linux, no, I don’t see any advantage to that when I can run them in their native environment with less worry and complication.

This is mainly an issue with the people developing Photoshop,Wavelab, and Autocad. However, if their developers released a program that would allow you to run them on Linux, would you use it, if it was free? Similar to how Quake 4 for Linux was released?

Yes, yes, yes. It’s not the fault of Linux. It’s the hardware manufacturer’s that won’t provide a good, solid, Linux software/driver base support. It’s the software providers that won’t allow their programs to be fully Linux compatible. And we can all blame MS, Intel, and whoever else for that. But not those who say how much better Linux is, or that Linux will be the future and will someday blow Windows away. Well, I say what’s the freaking holdup? Someday isn’t good enough. Linux should have utterly buried Windows long ago, especially when it has so much potential to do just that.

For you, Linux is not as good as Windows. Fine, no-one says that Linux is perfect. But, for most of us on this forum, Linux is better than Windows for our needs.

To be honest, I don’t see Linux as being a viable alternative to Windows for me. The lack of good hardware support is the killer. The two things I use my computer the most for, graphics and audio, are crap with Linux. I’ve had to spend far too much time trying to find and setup drivers for my hardware that I either had to fight with to get to work or just don’t work at all. What does work barely has any settings or controls to configure or tweak my devices. I’m lucky if I can barely get half of what my system is capable of out of it, and what I can get out of it is well below a level of acceptable quality. I could upgrade my hardware to something that is more Linux compatible, but that would limit my choices to hardware that I don’t want to be using in/on my system.

As I said, sometimes you'll need to tweak things to work with Linux, particularly in those areas. It's not very userfriendly, but it will improve. Keep an eye on these forums, you'll find them useful if you want to expand slowly.

As much as I hate having to be stuck using Windows, and how much I wish I could dump all the M$ stuff, I just don’t see it happening anytime soon with Linux. I’ll keep Ubuntu on my system, maintain it, and continue learning how to use it, but it won’t be used for anything of great importance. That, sadly, is very disappointing to say the least.

The Linux fanatics will have a fit with this post, I’m sure. But I don’t care because I won’t be here to see any of it.

Give it time. Also, no, I'm not going to have a fit. Linux wasn't released with world domination in time. You ask for help, we'll give it you. But we're not really going to care if you switch or not.

julian67

October 7th, 2007, 07:37 AM

You also wrote:

Where is that?

Google is a well known search engine. Ubuntuforums is here. Community docs is...wait for it...Ubuntu community docs!!!!

So, you still are using the same attiude. "I got mine working...naner naner na..." etc. How does that help? So, you stuck the adapter in and poof, it worked? You didn't use ONE application to do anything? Wow, that's impressive.

Here are some links:
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-source-2.6.20/+bug/74362
http://lists.debian.org/debian-kernel/2007/09/msg01046.html
http://suseforums.net/index.php?showtopic=37809

There are several more like this or detailing experience with usb adapters with the Zydas chipset.

That's right I just plugged it in. nm-applet then showed me the available networks. I didn't use one application to do anything. Amazingly this is the same on every PC I tried with Feisty on it (1 desktop and 2 laptops). This is called plug and play. Did you hear of that? You asked which adapter. I told you exactly the one. If you're convince by non-relevant bug reports that it won't work then that is your problem (another one!).

And those bug reports: One is for openSUSE, one is for a kernel version that Feisty does not use, and the other refers specifically to the Belkin adapters and a Sagem adapter. None of these reports reference the Safecom device. You are disingenuous, dishonest, and ill mannered.

o, I guess, you are lucky to get a special device that 'just works.'

No it isn't special, they make them by the million in Hong Kong, Taiwan and China. Probably they do it just to annoy you.

uputer

October 7th, 2007, 08:16 AM

.
No it isn't special, they make them by the million in Hong Kong, Taiwan and China. Probably they do it just to annoy you.
Whatever. You show me another instance of someone having it working. I googled the adapter. I won't stoop to your level since you have already shown your true colours time and time again. Find another instance of it working 'out of the box'. I googled and there isn't one. So, you can lie but it doesn't change anything.

P.S. the wireless programs in Ubuntu are also lousy. I read that WICD is popular but it has to be downloaded. I use Kubuntu so as long as we're in testimonials, I wonder why it's not as supported.

And those bug reports: One is for openSUSE, one is for a kernel version that Feisty does not use, and the other refers specifically to the Belkin adapters and a Sagem adapter. None of these reports reference the Safecom device. You are disingenuous, dishonest, and ill mannered.
The Belkin has the *SAME* chipset and uses the same drivers/files/firmware. You had problems understanding that point?

julian67

October 7th, 2007, 09:08 AM

Whatever. You show me another instance of someone having it working.

People don't post to support forums when stuff works, they do it when it doesn't.

I googled the adapter.

So what? You can use google to find fault with anything. It's hardly an authoritative method of compiling evidence, it will just as easily give you erroneous information as good information. You have to also engage your brain. This is more difficult for some than others.

I won't stoop to your level since you have already shown your true colours time and time again. Find another instance of it working 'out of the box'. I googled and there isn't one. So, you can lie but it doesn't change anything.

wow you are a real charmer. You really do believe that your single experience is proof of a universal truth don't you? Try googling the word "parochial" and see if you can guess which of the various definitions applies to you.

This is how my desktop is set up. If you think I'm lying that's not my problem, it's problem in the dark underdeveloped recesses of your mind. You won't believe that though :lolflag:

lsusb:
Bus 003 Device 008: ID 0ecd:a100 Lite-On IT Corp.
Bus 003 Device 007: ID 05e3:0608 Genesys Logic, Inc.
Bus 003 Device 006: ID 05e3:0608 Genesys Logic, Inc.
Bus 003 Device 002: ID 0ace:1215 ZyDAS
Bus 003 Device 001: ID 0000:0000
Bus 002 Device 001: ID 0000:0000
Bus 001 Device 001: ID 0000:0000

ifconfig:

eth0 Link encap:Ethernet HWaddr 00:0D:87:32:B0:D9
inet addr:192.168.0.1 Bcast:192.168.0.255 Mask:255.255.255.0
inet6 addr: fe80::20d:87ff:fe32:b0d9/64 Scope:Link
UP BROADCAST MULTICAST MTU:1500 Metric:1
RX packets:36306 errors:4 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:4
TX packets:46510 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0
collisions:0 txqueuelen:1000
RX bytes:2817081 (2.6 MiB) TX bytes:63353847 (60.4 MiB)
Interrupt:18 Base address:0xd800

eth1 Link encap:Ethernet HWaddr 00:02:72:5D:D3:70
inet addr:192.168.1.4 Bcast:192.168.1.255 Mask:255.255.255.0
inet6 addr: fe80::202:72ff:fe5d:d370/64 Scope:Link
UP BROADCAST RUNNING MULTICAST MTU:1500 Metric:1
RX packets:2042435 errors:0 dropped:714004 overruns:0 frame:0
TX packets:2201851 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0
collisions:0 txqueuelen:1000
RX bytes:1497741095 (1.3 GiB) TX bytes:1250671594 (1.1 GiB)

lo Link encap:Local Loopback
inet addr:127.0.0.1 Mask:255.0.0.0
inet6 addr: ::1/128 Scope:Host
UP LOOPBACK RUNNING MTU:16436 Metric:1
RX packets:11254 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0
TX packets:11254 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0
collisions:0 txqueuelen:0
RX bytes:475616 (464.4 KiB) TX bytes:475616 (464.4 KiB)

nm-applet Connection Information

http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/2412/screenshotha9.png

Firestarter settings

http://img110.imageshack.us/img110/1324/screenshot1rb6.png

P.S. the wireless programs in Ubuntu are also lousy.

Maybe network manager and nm-applet are lousy but they work better than any MS Windows wi fi config tools so I'm happy to use "lousy" tools

I read that WICD is popular but it has to be downloaded.

That's right, you must never use an application if it has to be downloaded first. :confused:

I use Kubuntu so as long as we're in testimonials, I wonder why it's not as supported.

It is. But you are confused.

The Belkin has the *SAME* chipset and uses the same drivers/files/firmware. You had problems understanding that point?

It's clear from reading the various bug reports that different manufacturers implement things differently. So the wi fi chipset might be the same but you have not much chance of knowing what sits between that and your PC's USB port.

It's also clear that you are unable to differentiate between a wireless chipset, a wireless driver, a wireless config tool and a wireless subsystem. You think that because a particular piece of hardware does not work for you that it follows that the whole wireless networking set of systems and tools is somehow broken. That does not say anything positive for your powers of reasoning. For confirmation click here (http://quizrocket.com/dumb-test?gatherer_id=100358)

hairshirt

October 7th, 2007, 09:24 AM

How comes this post is still alive. (People like me replying to it I suppose!) Every search I do on these forums this damned thread rears its ugly head.

Bye bye and get stuffed and don't come back is all I have to say. Knobs!

Anyone is free and welcome to go backwards and allow themselves to be a milk cow for the likes of scum like Gate and Jobs as far as I'm concerned.

To hell with you.

kellemes

October 7th, 2007, 09:28 AM

uputer

October 7th, 2007, 09:38 AM

It's also clear that you are unable to differentiate between a wireless chipset, a wireless driver, a wireless config tool and a wireless subsystem. You think that because a particular piece of hardware does not work for you that it follows that the whole wireless networking set of systems and tools is somehow broken. That does not say anything positive for your powers of reasoning. For confirmation click here (http://quizrocket.com/dumb-test?gatherer_id=100358)
You sure are a piece of work. I really don't care if it works for you are not. If you think a google search of the same device (chipset/usb type etc.) with no hits with a detailed instructions getting it to work means nothing, then you are just hopeless. As for your personal insults, you are a pathetic excuse for a person.

uputer

October 7th, 2007, 09:39 AM

Your attitude sucks.
Most people's attitude here sucks.

This is probably the worst (Linux) community I've ever come across.

julian67

October 7th, 2007, 09:42 AM

Most people's attitude here sucks.

This is probably the worst community I've ever come across.

yeah uputer the Ubuntu community is well known for this. Or could the problem actually be you......?

ddrichardson

October 7th, 2007, 09:47 AM

You didn't say anything in your post that hasn't been said before. I've heard all that ad nauseum. Why are you so offended, really?
Total and utter rubbish. Your comments offended me not the OP's.

If you took the time to check my previous posts before spouting a lot of half baked drivel as to my attitude to critiscism you would see a number of occasions when I have taken constructive critiscism and seen what we can do with it.

Yet, your post suggests the community is closed to anyone who doesn't react in the 'preferred "rah rah" manner'? That is rather close-minded and unrealistic, isn't it?

And? See previous posts.

I spent hours trying to get wireless to work and am not offended if someone posts, saying they couldn't get wireless or some other aspect working. Not everyone can have a wonderful experience and regardless of what they expect to find out of Linux, certain failures can be especially frustrating. It's feasible and expected that a lot of computer users would be looking for a way out of the Windows stranglehold. That could be good, don't you think so?

This user isn't complaining about a mainstream problem that needs to be rectified for the masses. This user is complaining that Linux is not a good platform for CAD - the applications are not developed by Ubuntu and the whole tone is thouroughly negative, in fact it stinks of trolling.

If you insist that it's such a good idea for people to be able to rant about bad experiences, then why can't I answer that sort of post when it's misinformed? Or to extend that why can't I vent too??

kellemes

October 7th, 2007, 10:04 AM

julian67

October 7th, 2007, 10:32 AM

I really think someones response should be aimed at helping, guiding and supporting, if you aren't able to do this please don't response at all, you're not helping GNU/Linux by spilling hate.
Lets keep it clean folks, lets have fun using the better system. :guitar:

OK put your money where your mouth is and you help uputer through his issues. Please tell us all about it afterwards, which curses you used most often, what variety of self-medication you resorted to and how long it took until you realised he's trolling. kthxbye ;-)

here's a tip: use the quote facility liberally as he is keen on stalinist style editing.

jbaerbock

October 7th, 2007, 01:36 PM

Hey Uputer one comment on your problems. I used to use Kubuntu Feisty and for some reason I had problems with it detecting some usb devices automaticaly as well as detecting some flash cards (I have a multicard reader). Have you tried a liveCD of something else using a different DE? I know this technicaly should not matter but sometimes it does.

Also wicD is indeed and awsome wireless app though I stick to the default gnome app. If you want a good distro with a friendly community and wicD by default you could try Mint's XFCE edition. Runs fast and has wicD by default plus its dev has been tinkering with the wireless for awhile now and I think he has done some good things.

I've fun into problems with some users as well but that's just because us Linux users are a passionate lot, or at least so my wife tells me :P.

sstusick

October 7th, 2007, 05:04 PM

sstusick

October 7th, 2007, 05:11 PM

Uputer, give it up already. I have seen nothing but negativity and trolling from you. If you want to whine about your problems instead of fixing them, go back to Windows. Each post you are spewing the same negative babble spinned in your ignorance. You find it hard to believe that there's plug and play on Linux? Well let me tell you, there are many, many users where all of their hardware works out of the box on Ubuntu. And those that do have trouble getting something to work, they do the intelligent thing and google their problem or ask on this forum. But I assume that is too much work for you, being you're lazy and trolling on a Linux forum is more entertaining. If it doesn't work, fix it, or go back to Windows. I am sure Bill Gates will welcome you back with open arms.

bapoumba

October 7th, 2007, 05:52 PM

Please go back on topic, the situation is being taken care off. Thanks :)

Cannaregio

October 8th, 2007, 02:43 AM

This user is complaining that Linux is not a good platform for CAD - the applications are not developed by Ubuntu and the whole tone is thouroughly negative, in fact it stinks of trolling.

I totally agree with ddrichardson, FWIW, it does stink a little of trolling.
I mean, c'mon, this guy has spent (he says) YEARS customizing his rig for windows, chasing hardware and drivers and then checking how these "interact and work best together with programs" and then -suddendly- discovers that linux is different and uses different drivers, and he 'refuses to change all that to suit linux"? Yep, it does have a slight sniff of trolling, allow me to say it.

But the funny fact is that his "conclusions" are wrong (both if he's a troller and if he's legit), coz he still could have a more powerful rig than in windows, even if he does not realize it.
So allow me to repeat my previous advice :-)

OP: I’m to run my computer at half its capabilities?

ME: Nope, you'r running your computer at half its capabilities now under windows, poor thing. And you even have, under windows, those crap DRMs and all the sniffers to battle against, as an added disadvantage.

But, this said, in order to trim your box in GNU/Linux you'll have to invest some work (exactly as you did in windows).
SO Drevix: belly in, keep straight, stop trolling, roll up your sleeves! The power is yours for the taking!