The "Bye, Ubuntu" thread

[scrooge_74]

In the middle of Email tranferring everything I don't want to lose, I thought about something: I'll give this OS one last shot at staying on this computer IF one of you can come up with a compelling argument for it that doesn't involve Windows-bashing. Doesn't have to be a ten page tirade about it, it could be a sentence or two. I'm sure you're probably asking yourself, "Why should I make the effort for you, after everything you've said?" and there's a good possibility none of you will answer on that basis. But, if you can't answer for me, how can you answer for anyone else you hope to "save" from the "horrors" and "myths" and what not of Windows? How do you know that you won't "convert" a friend a week or a month from now, and that friend won't get similarly fed up when the poop hits the fan and look to leave in disgust as I'm close to?

I am sad to hear that you are having all this troubles, to tell you the truth
I had my share of problems my self. I don't have experience with previous versions of Ubuntu only with Dapper and I did not have this level of problems.

Just an idea on how maybe to solve your problems. Maybe if you put the live CD in and repartition your drive, move your home folder to that partition and then make a clean install could be easier than trying to upgrade, I heard upgrades don't alway work.

Good luck

[LincolnMarkVII]

Yep, didn't think you could. It's OK though. Better to remain cult-like and pretend to want more people than to actually try to get more people to use, right?

As for the post that snuck in between me reading the other one and sending this one, I'm not trying to upgrade the whole shebang.. I'm just trying to use the updater that comes up almost every day telling me I have updates waiting. Ever since it changed to a new format asking me if I want to remember the password, it has forgotten what the password is. (and a few other new problems cropped up at the same time) I'd rather not try to do a new install with the current data remaining because this is only a 40 gig drive and I'm not really comfortable with (OK, I'm freakin' paranoid about) filling it up with yet more partitions. Have an 80 gig drive that I meant to put into that system but never got around to taking it out of my main system.

[stalker145]

I'll give this OS one last shot at staying on this computer IF one of you can come up with a compelling argument for it that doesn't involve Windows-bashing.

Why?

Life is about choices just as was alluded to in the original post. I, as an individual can show someone an item, be it an OS, a method, or whatever, that may work better for me and leave the choice to them. I will never try to ram something down a person's throat and tell them they have to do it this way (unless it's work-related).
As with the OP's relatives you have a choice. You can continue to believe what you wish (that one OS is superior, that people are ignoring you, whatever) without actually doing some research or you can learn, read, and listen.


LincolnMarkVII, as for your question that went unanswered for a day in your other referenced post: deal with it. I have had several questions go unanswered and I moved on with my life taking no personal offense. As was mentioned in that other post, people here are volunteers. You can not and should not expect nor demand that your problems be responded to. It just doesn't always happen. If you wish to demand support, call Canonical and pay for it; the option is there.

Please, in the future whether it be here or elsewhere, please be more tactful and respectful in your responses because, as mentioned before, all here are volunteers. Acting contrary to this could find you ostracized rather quickly.


And now, back to our previously scheduled topic. My apologies to Knaacks for the hi-jack.

[aysiu]

Yep, didn't think you could. And why could I?

You can't convince someone into using an OS that doesn't suit her needs. Can you convince me to use Windows? Doubt it. It doesn't suit my needs. Nor can I convince you to use Ubuntu. It clearly doesn't suit yours.

Use whatever's best for you.

If you need specific help getting Ubuntu to work for you, ask a specific question, and people will try to help you as much as possible. If you believe Ubuntu needs improvement, file some bug reports and donate some money. Otherwise, use what you've got, or use something else.

[Henry Rayker]

No need for this. I was clearly late.

[LincolnMarkVII]

I asked a specific question. Someone else was having the same problem, or at least the same exact error message. Posted to that thread. It promptly fell to page three several times, after I provided the requested information. But threads like this one (at least before you cut it apart and moved some of it) seem to get plenty of attention. So what do you volunteer, exactly? Time spent Windows-bashing? If not, why is there a forum section specifically telling people NOT to Windows-bash in it? I don't see a section telling people not to bash Amiga Workbench, or BeOS, or whatever.

What I need from Ubuntu is an OS that just works. Not one that decides to throw a hissy one day and not let me update components anymore, or let me backspace (or space, or any key for that matter) more than one keystroke at a time instead of holding it down, or let me see the task bars for Firefox or GAIM or whatever I want to run, or let me do anything across the network, or let me specify longer than 5-10 minutes for the screensaver when it clearly says 30 minutes.

Go ahead.. "ostracize" me. To me, that just reinforces my growing belief that it's more about belonging to something that's not considered mainstream than about putting out a compelling alternative to "teh evil windoze" and getting people to use it who aren't complete propeller-heads and don't want to be. I don't want to feel like I've been thrown back to the days of DOS 5 just to get a browser task bar to show up again. It's much easier to blow off one annoyed person and go on about your business with your nose in the air than it is to stop and address the problem.

[scrooge_74]

I asked a specific question. Someone else was having the same problem, or at least the same exact error message. Posted to that thread. It promptly fell to page three several times, after I provided the requested information. But threads like this one (at least before you cut it apart and moved some of it) seem to get plenty of attention. So what do you volunteer, exactly? Time spent Windows-bashing? If not, why is there a forum section specifically telling people NOT to Windows-bash in it? I don't see a section telling people not to bash Amiga Workbench, or BeOS, or whatever.

What I need from Ubuntu is an OS that just works. Not one that decides to throw a hissy one day and not let me update components anymore, or let me backspace (or space, or any key for that matter) more than one keystroke at a time instead of holding it down, or let me see the task bars for Firefox or GAIM or whatever I want to run, or let me do anything across the network, or let me specify longer than 5-10 minutes for the screensaver when it clearly says 30 minutes.

Go ahead.. "ostracize" me. To me, that just reinforces my growing belief that it's more about belonging to something that's not considered mainstream than about putting out a compelling alternative to "teh evil windoze" and getting people to use it who aren't complete propeller-heads and don't want to be. I don't want to feel like I've been thrown back to the days of DOS 5 just to get a browser task bar to show up again. It's much easier to blow off one annoyed person and go on about your business with your nose in the air than it is to stop and address the problem.

You should try Debian stable is not hype is not so mainstream, but it gets things done

[Henry Rayker]

Well, I don't know what the definition of "just works" is to you, but I've not had any of the problems you've had, and Ubuntu has been just fine for me.

One problem with the forums is the fact that there are so many new threads being posted all the time. Oftentimes, rather than reading through a thread (which requires searching) people will just make their own.

A reason for so much windows bashing is the fact that it doesn't "just work". It takes an INCREDUOUSLY long time to install, and then, afterward, you have to install more drivers and more software and this and that. Ubuntu, out of the box, is a hell of a lot more usable. Hardware issues not included. The cause of hardware issues is not Ubuntu or Linux, but the hardware manufacturers. They have closed specs (for good reason) but then don't want to supply decent open sourced drivers. Imagine how well your hardware would work if all of the windows drivers just disappeared.

Another reason is due to the fact that so many people finally realize how bad it was (using Windows) when they see how well something like Ubuntu works for them. However, I am not saying Ubuntu is for everyone. The hardest part of Ubuntu is setting it up. Once installed, it is stable (unless you go monkeying around). Windows is a constant battle against the flood of viruses, spyware, and other goo-dripping goodies.

You're not being ostracized, but you're not being terribly friendly either. If Ubuntu doesn't work for you and it is too much of a hassle to get it properly set up, then don't use it. I think it would be far more cruel to try to trick you into using an operating system that you don't like and don't need. This isn't a cult atmosphere, nor are we all "propeller heads" or whatever else you've called us. A great deal of the Ubuntu crowd are NOT computer wizards, nor are they stereotypical nerds.

The people here are here because they want to be; no one is forced to stay, nor are we encouraged to "convert" people. I have introduced some people to Ubuntu and offered to do the installation/setup for them, but that was all. I have always left a 100% working Windows partition when I am done and offered to remove it if they ever felt it was too difficult, too un-user friendly or just plain getting in the way.

[LincolnMarkVII]

You should try Debian stable is not hype is not so mainstream, but it gets things done

I'll take it into consideration. However, and I'm not saying this to be even more argumentative, I thought Ubuntu was supposed to be one of the easier and more stable releases out there? It was a combination of things I had read about it elsewhere and the availability of a second computer to clean-slate that brought me here in the first place.

Obviously I'm willing to do *some* things to get an OS to work on a computer, or I would not have installed it. I just feel with this latest problem that I'm at or near the end of my rope with it. I use this computer mainly for looking up things while I'm playing City of Heroes/Villains, and for running an IM client (another of my beefs, I hate GAIM.. but that's another story) on so I don't have to alt-tab out of the game to talk to friends. With this latest error, I can't see any of the task bars for Firefox or GAIM or whatever, and it's annoying to alt-tab through things you're used to just clicking on. I'd have also used it for playing MP3s or video files from my main system, but an earlier network problem has prevented me from doing that for months now.

[Henry Rayker]

You no longer see your Window List on the taskbar, is that correct? I haven't seen any hard reference to that here, but I'm sure you actually have a Window List module on the taskbar (and have a taskbar) right?

[scrooge_74]

I'll take it into consideration. However, and I'm not saying this to be even more argumentative, I thought Ubuntu was supposed to be one of the easier and more stable releases out there? It was a combination of things I had read about it elsewhere and the availability of a second computer to clean-slate that brought me here in the first place.

Obviously I'm willing to do *some* things to get an OS to work on a computer, or I would not have installed it. I just feel with this latest problem that I'm at or near the end of my rope with it. I use this computer mainly for looking up things while I'm playing City of Heroes/Villains, and for running an IM client (another of my beefs, I hate GAIM.. but that's another story) on so I don't have to alt-tab out of the game to talk to friends. With this latest error, I can't see any of the task bars for Firefox or GAIM or whatever, and it's annoying to alt-tab through things you're used to just clicking on. I'd have also used it for playing MP3s or video files from my main system, but an earlier network problem has prevented me from doing that for months now.

In reality I came to use Ubuntu due to a change of equipment and been to lazy to set it up using Debian stable. With Stable I had to use a couple of debian backports repositories to get things working using the latest version of programs, but in general things worked pretty well on that system.

Sorry I can't be of much help with your current problem, I don't know that much about Linux. In many cases if I can't find the answer in the forums (which is not very often in my case), I usually un-install the programs I think are giving me headaches and then reinstall them one at a time. I also don't use the latest latest thing, as an example I don't use latest Ubuntu or latest firefox, that is going to take me at least 6 months.

I definitely fit in the category of don't like to belong to any group, I do try to help here to give back some of the help I have receive, and left windows becauser I got tired of been my own IT staff everyday (now I only do that to friends that keep geting into troubles)

Good luck with resolving your problems..

[LincolnMarkVII]

You no longer see your Window List on the taskbar, is that correct? I haven't seen any hard reference to that here, but I'm sure you actually have a Window List module on the taskbar (and have a taskbar) right?

Correct. Several problems cropped up at the same time, after doing an update within the last few days.

1) The Updates Available icon is showing, but clicking on it and typing in my password tells me that my password is incorrect. In fact, anytime I try to use something calling for a password, I get the following:

Failed to run /usr/bin/update-manager as user root: Wrong password.

In the thread where I said I had this problem, someone asked me to give the output from the GROUPS command. I did. No response.

2) All taskbar bars have ceased showing up. The only way I can bring up a program that's running is alt-tab, once it is minimized.

3) No matter what I set it to, (usually a random screensaver that isn't too much for my video card and a 30 minute delay) the screensaver comes on after 5-10 minutes and is a blank screen.

There have been problems prior to this, but this set of problems was the proverbial "last straw" that brought me to the mood I'm in now about the whole thing.

[scrooge_74]

open a terminal window

go to /etc and type sudo nano sudoers

it should say something like

# Defaults

Defaults !lecture,tty_tickets,!fqdn

# User privilege specification
root ALL=(ALL) ALL

# Members of the admin group may gain root privileges
%admin ALL=(ALL) ALL

Which is what make it possible to your user to use sudo and be able to do admin task without being root user

Is there any chance you made user root active? and gave it a password?

[Henry Rayker]

On the password thing, I'm really not certain. The GROUPS thing might have been a decent path or something, but someone else may need to chime in.

The taskbars being completely gone, by this I mean you have no bars at all. The applications/system/places, clock, launch icons and everything are gone?

For the screensaver issue, it's probably not starting the screensaver (due to the fact that it's the wrong time AND a black screen) it is probably "dimming" the screen (my girlfriend's computer, dimming the screen just causes it to go black...on my laptop, it turns off the backlight (and things are still slightly visible)). You may want to look in System > Administration > Power Settings (it may be in preferences and not administration and might not be called power settings...I'm not at my home pc right now)

[LincolnMarkVII]

Question #1:

# Defaults

Defaults !lecture,tty_tickets,!fqdn

# User privilege specification
root ALL=(ALL) ALL

That's what it says. For the record, I've never seen this file before, let alone messed with it.. so if it's not saying or doing what it's supposed to, I have no idea why.

Question #2:

I have the bars in place. Applications/Places/System, etc. is there, and the bar at the bottom that usually has the smaller bars for a Firefox window, GAIM, etc. (identical to what you'd see on the taskbar in Windows next to START) The bars inside that taskbar are gone.

As an aside to that, I forgot to mention that two other problems cropped up at the same time: First, the clock stopped displaying in the manner I had set. It went to a <HH>:<MM> format, when originally it was <date> <HH>:<MM>. I set it back to normal and it has stayed that way since. Second, I am no longer able to hold down a key and have it repeat. To erase an incorrect line in this post, for example, I must now either hit backspace the exact number of times corresponding to what I want to erase, or highlight it with the mouse and hit the delete key.

The only things I have done to this computer in the last few days are do whatever updates come up on the update icon that appears next to the time/date display, use GAIM, and view web pages.. mostly related to City of Heroes or old games. (places like MobyGames and HoTU.. what can I say, I got nostalgic about old C64 stuff and the like) In other words, no, I didn't go on a mad "pr0n" rampage or anything like that.

[Henry Rayker]

Try right clicking the taskbar and choose the option that most closely resembles "add gadget". It may be just add to the bar, or add widget or something like that. It should bring up a window full of stuff you can put on the taskbars. Scour the window for the "Window List" gadget and see if it puts that on your taskbar. It may not pull in your windows automatically...you may have to log out and back in.

Let me know.

Oh yeah, as far as I know (read: I have no experience with this), mad pr0n rampages don't really do much of anything to a Linux OS...so feel free, if you wish!

The keyboard repeat...try the keyboard setup. It should be in either System>Administration>Keyboard or System>Preferences>Keyboard

[scrooge_74]

Try right clicking the taskbar and choose the option that most closely resembles "add gadget". It may be just add to the bar, or add widget or something like that. It should bring up a window full of stuff you can put on the taskbars. Scour the window for the "Window List" gadget and see if it puts that on your taskbar. It may not pull in your windows automatically...you may have to log out and back in.

Let me know.

Oh yeah, as far as I know (read: I have no experience with this), mad pr0n rampages don't really do much of anything to a Linux OS...so feel free, if you wish!

The keyboard repeat...try the keyboard setup. It should be in either System>Administration>Keyboard or System>Preferences>Keyboard


It seems that the updates or you manage to changes things on your desktop preferences. I manage to do a few of those same things when I was first trying gnome. I was not expecting to be able to change things so easily and manage to wipe out all of the taskbars once.

Now I have translucent taskbars, applets for a weather map, gaim flashing in a corner and little stuff like that.

....also I forgot about sudoers, that file tells your computer you have permission to do admin work, i usually don't get the icon to update things, because I keep doing it like in Debian I go to a command prompt and write sudo apt-get update, after giving password i will do sudo apt-get upgrade and click say yes to any updates

[LincolnMarkVII]

Clicking on System>Preferences>Keyboard gives me this:

The Application "gnome-keyboard-properties" has quit unexpectedly.

You can inform the developers of what happened to help them fix it. Or you can restart the application right now.

Error dialog loops if I click to restart, and the Inform Developers dialog tree does not seem to contain the proper program or product to select for notification.

[scrooge_74]

Clicking on System>Preferences>Keyboard gives me this:

The Application "gnome-keyboard-properties" has quit unexpectedly.

You can inform the developers of what happened to help them fix it. Or you can restart the application right now.

Error dialog loops if I click to restart, and the Inform Developers dialog tree does not seem to contain the proper program or product to select for notification.

Just for fun since I think you are getting closer to your problem, try add another user and then logout of your current user and log in with the other user. Your taskbars should probably be back with that user

[LincolnMarkVII]

Found the problem with the loss of taskbars. It reset the min and max size to 0.

Unfortunately, while some of the minor problems are fixed, there's still the major problem of the password thing.

[scrooge_74]

Found the problem with the loss of taskbars. It reset the min and max size to 0.

Unfortunately, while some of the minor problems are fixed, there's still the major problem of the password thing.

Ok then lets try this open a terminal windows

And try sudo apt-get update and give your normal user password

and lets go from there. It things are ok the Pc should try to connect to ubuntu repositories and try to update the list of programs

[LincolnMarkVII]

Did it, it updated. The update icon is now grayed out, but still clickable. Clicked on that just to see what would happen.. it gave me the password prompt again, and again told me my correct password was wrong. (and no, to eliminate a possible easy error, I don't have caps lock on by mistake)

EDIT: Scratch that, the icon is orange again, and again saying three updates available.

[scrooge_74]

Did it, it updated. The update icon is now grayed out, but still clickable. Clicked on that just to see what would happen.. it gave me the password prompt again, and again told me my correct password was wrong. (and no, to eliminate a possible easy error, I don't have caps lock on by mistake)

It seems is the darn udate icon thing/program, I think i remember I had some troubles with it once, but since I don't really use it I don't pay much attention to it.

now from the command line again do: sudo apt-get upgrade and type Y to the question if there are any packages that need upgrade

i really use synaptic for my upgrade and install tasks and from time to time I do it from the command line

[Henry Rayker]

That is incredibly odd. You can run sudo apt-get update, but not clicking the icon...that icon is basically a front end for the sudo apt-get update...

[scrooge_74]

That is incredibly odd. You can run sudo apt-get update, but not clicking the icon...that icon is basically a front end for the sudo apt-get update...

Well yes, but I am old enough to kindly remember doing my tasks from a DOS prompt :D

Is just so much more fun

[LincolnMarkVII]

Redid the sudo apt-get update line in terminal, it spit out a ton of text again, and the update icon again grayed out with a tooltip saying "A package manager is working".

EDIT: Same as before, it waits a minute or two and goes back to orange. Clicking on it and trying different options on the new password dialog box all end up the same.

Failed to run /usr/bin/update-manager as user root:
Wrong password.

[scrooge_74]

Redid the sudo apt-get update line in terminal, it spit out a ton of text again, and the update icon again grayed out with a tooltip saying "A package manager is working".

is the icon try to turn it off. You probably have it working in the background or like it happens to me I have synaptic running at the same time

Also now change from update to upgrade

sudo apt-get upgrade so you can update the system

I really hate that icon, where can we make a formal complaint against it? It is the cause of your troubles

[LincolnMarkVII]

Ran upgrade. Spit out way too much text to describe.. but now the icon is gone. I'm going to try to access anything that requires a password dialog box, to see if it works.

EDIT:

Failed to run services-admin as user root:
Wrong password.

[scrooge_74]

Ran upgrade. Spit out way too much text to describe.. but now the icon is gone. I'm going to try to access anything that requires a password dialog box, to see if it works.

You should not have any troubles with other GUI front end tools requiring your password since at least we know that apt-get is working and sudo is working ok

[scrooge_74]

Ran upgrade. Spit out way too much text to describe.. but now the icon is gone. I'm going to try to access anything that requires a password dialog box, to see if it works.

EDIT:

Failed to run services-admin as user root:
Wrong password.

We did not check your etc/sudoers file, it has to be as i posted earlier, maybe something got change (could not think of a way)

But it seems is sudoers config giving you troubles to do admin task from inside gnome

[bclinton]

Well - after 6 months of reloading Ubuntu I have had enough. Not necessarily Ubuntu - just linux in general. It seems my trouble started when I did the upgrade from 6.06 to 6.1. Everything I try and do seems to take a lot of time tweaking and reading online to figure it out. So I decided to wipe it and load 6.1 from scratch. All seemed well - I even was able to get Beryl working - then troubles with Samba and constant freezing up. I would take 15 minutes to restart Ubuntu and thats with only automatix and SMB loaded. It seems that everything is for windows and you have to figure out how to do things in linux like me Epson scanner. It will only work in autofeed mode in windows. Farewell folks. I was wanting to abandon windows but it just isn't worth it. Too many time consuming things to make it worth it.

[pay]

The situation with the constant freezing is an unusual problem. In the end you have to use what works for you. Each to their own. Good luck with Windows, but I would suggest testing other distros to find out if any others are better.

[Sef]

Well - after 6 months of reloading Ubuntu I have had enough. Not necessarily Ubuntu - just linux in general. It seems my trouble started when I did the upgrade from 6.06 to 6.1. Everything I try and do seems to take a lot of time tweaking and reading online to figure it out.

The forum is here to help people having problems. Often you can be pointed to the right page or given some advice based on experience.

[az]

Too many time consuming things to make it worth it.

You should have just stuck with Dapper.

Edgy is not supposed to be as easy and friendly as Dapper. As well, if you want an accelerated desktop at this stage, you are bound for rocky terrain - nobody will tell you that an accelerated desktop is ready for prime-time yet. Soon, though.

As for your scanner, I dunno. A bug report may help, I think.

[DoctorMO]

As a programmer who has worked on sane (scanner drivers) you insult me by not asking for help. this is supposed to be a community where you ask for help. your not supposed to try to know everything. be an expert etc.

If you epson scanner didn't work you could have filed a bug report.

As for the ease of use, we're working on it and we do fix most of the bugs that come in and develop solutions based on feedback but since I can't see either from you your not going to get what you want.

I'm sorry to say you haven't helped gnu/linux in any way and I don't think we'll miss you.

[kvonb]

glotz: This joker's got fecking 3 beans and he's complaining. Nice attitude. Great effort.

Enjoy windows.I'm with you there glotz!

It's sad, some people just can't ask for help!

It irks me when they just spit the dummy and post a "I can't be bothered to do any work, Linux sucks, now all come running and help me because I insulted Linux" attitude!

I see a lot more of these type of post these days :rolleyes:.

I owned my own computer shop for many years and saw this type every week. They bring their computer back to the shop screaming and carrying on that it's crap and doesn't work, we're the biggest bunch of idiots they've ever seen, they should have bought it somewhere else etc' etc'.

It nearly always turned out to be something stupid they did: "well I didn't put all my Windows system files in the trash!".

Oh those damn Windows file deleting aliens again :rolleyes:.

I ended up charging them double for putting up with their nastiness, they soon learn to think before they open their mouths ;).

PS. Just read DoctorMo's reply, my friend I salute you! Ubuntu is the first distro I have ever used where my scanner worked out of the box! Thankyou for giving your time and knowledge to the SANE project, it has come a very long way since I first tried it years ago. There are a LOT of people who appreciate your work and the work of all the other contributors, don't lose heart from lazy ignorant people!

PPS. Oh and I can probably tell bclinton where his problem might be, but unless he asks nicely I will keep it to myself :D

[bclinton]

That is exactly the point I am trying to make. I would love to see Ubuntu take off but my Mom and Dad and sisters and brothers would never be able to deal with all the problems. My scanner works fine in Windows so do most devices - mainly because the manufacturer supports mainly windows. Linux will always be an OS for the folks that can deal with the problems that come with it. Aside from that it doesn't have a chance mainly because the folks that support it do not get paid and can not devite unlimited time to working on the many issues.

[BWF89]

Have you tried Freespire? At the risk of being flamed (this is a Ubuntu forum) it's the most desktop ready Linux distro in existence. You should give it a try before giving up Linux altogether.

http://freespire.org/

[KiwiNZ]

Have you tried Freespire? At the risk of being flamed (this is a Ubuntu forum) it's the most desktop ready Linux distro in existence. You should give it a try before giving up Linux altogether.

http://freespire.org/

You should not be flamed for suggesting Freespire .

[az]

That is exactly the point I am trying to make. I would love to see Ubuntu take off but my Mom and Dad and sisters and brothers would never be able to deal with all the problems.

Windows is not easier to use than Ubuntu. If my Father-in-law or all the people at work who ask me to fix their problems with windows did not have someone to help them, they would not be able to operate their computers.

Most of the time, when I point someone to Ubuntu, they have very few issues. Fewer than with windows, in any case.


My scanner works fine in Windows so do most devices - mainly because the manufacturer supports mainly windows.

Actually, only because linux has a small marketshare. Its' marketshare is growing fast. It won't be long before hardware vendors make their stuff work with linux by providing open source drivers.





Aside from that it doesn't have a chance mainly because the folks that support it do not get paid and can not devite unlimited time to working on the many issues.

I know many many people who get paid to support free-libre software. How do you think they make money?

I don't think you can say that there are no companies willing to sell you services and support for a linux deployment.

[aysiu]

Thrown in with the rest of them. If you want help, ask for it. Otherwise, we don't really care that you're leaving. Use what works best for you--it appears not to be Ubuntu.

[kvonb]

Thrown in with the rest of them. If you want help, ask for it. Otherwise, we don't really care that you're leaving. Use what works best for you--it appears not to be Ubuntu.

Oh now you've done it, you cheesed off Aysiu! That's not easy to do! I might need to send him a big tin of coffee for Christmas just to calm him down poor lad :-D.

[KiwiNZ]

In through the nose , out through the mouth
In with the good , out with the bad.

Clam calm calm

Find your happy place

[SonicSteve]

I find the freeze ups a strange thing also. In my experience freeze ups are a result of bad hardware.
Things like bad capacitors (common among cheaper mainboards)
Flakey memory
Flakey video cards
Hard drives with bad sectors.
Etc. etc. etc.

I have yet to install Ubuntu on a single machine and have even a bit of freezing trouble. I would be willing to stake my career on the fact that some piece of hardware in the machine is flakey.

In fact I've found that Ubuntu will even work better with bad hardware than windows will. I started a thread in the Multimedia section about AC97 onboard sound and how when the on board chip is slightly damaged it will still work in ubuntu but not in windows no matter what you try.

In all I have yet to see anything that would cause me to blame Ubuntu for for any kind of trouble with freeze ups. If there are freeze ups in ubuntu some similar kind of issue will be there in windows also. It may just manifest itself slightly differently.

I just wanted to share my experience.

[hikaricore]

I just thought I'd mention that I have left....


Windows.

Hehe. Deleted my windows partiton after almost a year of using Ubuntu, @#$^ them I'm never going back.

I have installed Ubuntu and Kubuntu on all but one of my 7 systems at work, and I wouldn't change it for anything. The only other system I have uses proprietary software for my two huge cannon copiers which I can't seem to replace, so i just use that one for setting up print jobs. I can print properly to the copiers through raw and postscript, but have no further access to the Fiery Rip systems on them. *shrug* 6/7 Ain't bad. :) I'm going to switch my boss to Kubuntu if he gets spyware installed on his system one more time. He managed to crash his hard drive somehow after years of spyware and viruses. The damn thing thought it was a Fat 12 file system. O.o So for anyone who is thinking of leaving ubuntu, just ask questions, we all do our best to answer. But if you just can't stay with us for one reason or another, just remember there are good people here if you ever change your mind.

--Aaron

[fuscia]

"il pleure dans mon coeur.":KS

[PryGuy]

I have read half of the posts and it makes me think that all the people that blame Ubuntu are not geeks? Right? I was new to Linux also, just had some experiences with other Linuxes before. And I think that the main quesion is are you ready to spend time to learn Linux? On the other hand I think it's useless itself saying: Windows couldn't connect to my Ubuntu SMB share; Ubuntu is useless!!! Everything in Ubuntu works perfectly if you tweak it. ;)

Yet let's face it Ubuntu is an offspring of the ole terminal Unix thing so it loves terminal too. ;) It's just Ubuntu's nature like it or not. It's not bad for me. And everytime I install Ubuntu I spend about half an hour in terminal configuring the system. I have even installed a script for me that installs NVIDIA drivers, Beryl, multimedia codecs, Flash plugin, Samba server, NTP, etc, etc, etc. You could do the same...

And if you find the Linux learining process boring - just turn it into a game, put your sunglasses on (hackers usually wear them in movies for some reason), put the Matrix Soundtrack and here you go. :cool:

[pay]

I find the freeze ups a strange thing also. In my experience freeze ups are a result of bad hardware.
Things like bad capacitors (common among cheaper mainboards)
Flakey memory
Flakey video cards
Hard drives with bad sectors.
Etc. etc. etc.

I have yet to install Ubuntu on a single machine and have even a bit of freezing trouble. I would be willing to stake my career on the fact that some piece of hardware in the machine is flakey.

In fact I've found that Ubuntu will even work better with bad hardware than windows will. I started a thread in the Multimedia section about AC97 onboard sound and how when the on board chip is slightly damaged it will still work in ubuntu but not in windows no matter what you try.

In all I have yet to see anything that would cause me to blame Ubuntu for for any kind of trouble with freeze ups. If there are freeze ups in ubuntu some similar kind of issue will be there in windows also. It may just manifest itself slightly differently.

I just wanted to share my experience.I used to use Ubuntu with my old computer but when I got my new computer, it froze constantly. Since then I installed Gentoo and it hasn't froze once. I don't know why one distro worked and another didn't, maybe a bad cd or something:S

[Malta paul]

Hi guys,
If hardware is defective its no good blaming your OS,

Having the CHOICE of using an OS is perhaps the most important thing.

If you choose M$ or a Linux OS, its what YOU wish to to work with.

At least Linux has many flavours to choose (just check Distrowatch).

Simply pick a OS that you like to use and don't get up-tight with other people's choice of operating system :)

[bclinton]

I guess for me the bottom line is if the user goes and buys a camera or a printer or a scanner - what are the odds that they will have trouble using it in Linux and what are the odds with Windows? That is the bottom line. My experience with computers is extensive - I manage an IT department - I don't think I will ever see Linux take off to the point of being main stream. Too many flavors of it and too confusing for the average user.

[derby007]

Well my camera, phone, USB external drive, CD & DVD drives, TV card all worked from the word go: even my friends (who have only limited win experience) prefer to boot up Ubuntu & play the multitude of card games,etc,.....& are now enquiring about how to run other things....seems straight foreward to me : knowledge is power. Anyway, what more can u get/expect from FREE software, u want your cake & eat it too

[aysiu]

I guess for me the bottom line is if the user goes and buys a camera or a printer or a scanner - what are the odds that they will have trouble using it in Linux and what are the odds with Windows? That is the bottom line. My experience with computers is extensive - I manage an IT department - I don't think I will ever see Linux take off to the point of being main stream. Too many flavors of it and too confusing for the average user. All you're basically saying is that if you dominate the desktop market place, it's difficult for someone else to dethrone you because every hardware manufacturer designs for your product (the dominant player).

It has nothing to do with the quality of the software or the design of the OS and everything to do with social/economic factors.

Frankly, it's pretty amazing, considering how small a userbase the Linux desktop has, that Ubuntu and other distros support as much as they do. You're far likely to have your device detected and working well than not detected at all.

By the way, if you're trying to speak for average users, don't say you manage an IT department. You're not an average user.

I think you should read these two links:
There are too many versions of Linux! It is confusing! (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CriticismFAQ#head-9ac5234915e257a6b3d0d649735a3704f57adb8b)
Linux has terrible hardware support. It needs better/more drivers! (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CriticismFAQ#head-b3df9b3b424c7c689ce1b7fae199e35b5f71ca81)

[23meg]

I don't think I will ever see Linux take off to the point of being main stream. Too many flavors of it and too confusing for the average user.How did Windows become mainstream? By shipping preinstalled in computers people bought. See what happens when bug #1 (https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+bug/01) is fixed, and some flavor of Linux shipped with a good percentage of computers:

1) The "too many flavors, too confusing" factor is eliminated; the user gets a preinstalled Linux system and uses it. They don't have to make a choice.

2) The "hard to install" factor is eliminated; the OS is preinstalled.

3) Hardware support gets vastly better, since, say, 30% of all desktop systems run Linux, no manufacturer can risk not providing Linux support.

Anyway, what more can u get/expect from FREE software, u want your cake & eat it tooRight now free software is serving me better than software I paid for. The monetary value of something has no necessary connection with its quality.

[steveneddy]

Well, when I switched to Linux from Windows, I threw away my Windows disks and vowed never to return to it. So I had to make Linux work for me. One thing I have found is that if one distro doesn't work for you, another may be exactly what you needed. I went through 11 distros before finding one that worked for me, I didn't give up.

If Ubuntu is not for you, you may want to try other distros. Each has it s good and bad points.

I went through many distros before deciding on Ubuntu. I actually tried Ubuntu and didn't like it at first, and then came back to it on an experimental weekend when I was just installing and trying different things. I don't remember what exactly made me fall in extreme like with Ubuntu, but I have never been happier with this machine, & I bought it new 6 years ago with ME installed on it. XP Pro went on next and then I discovered Linux.

We use (my daughter & I) two distros here, Ubuntu and PCLinuxOS. We have no windows machines here and only run windows on a VM so I can do work here for school on windows.

Learned everything I know from these forums and expect to stay here for al ong time to come.

[patrick295767]

I'm going back to windows after almost 7 month of Ubuntu experience.
I started off with Hoary and was amazed by the progress linux had made (last time I installed linux was 3 years ago - Slackware ).
Then came Breezy, it had alot of improvements and I know for sure this will continue in further releases.
I spented hours and hours of learing and tweaking and gained alot of knowledge, but after all it's not worth the effort.
i.e spending 3 hours the get vlc to work exactly the way I wanted with GTK2 interface. I asked myself : Shouldn't I spent that time with something usefull (friends, going out...)

Anyway, my 2cents:

-Slower performence in general, GUI less responsive (Gnome)
-Although apt system is very cool, things like not be able to update to new firefox 1.5 smootly i.e. bugs me.
-lack of really good applications I use alot i.e DVDDecrypter, Foobar2000, Exact Audio Copy.
Alternatives like Grip, dvd::rip,.. were ok but didn't had the same power.
Running through Wine worked, but with varrying results. (slow ripping although dma was on, not be able to rip a track while EAC ripped it without problems)
-no NTFS write access (I know, not linux's fault)
-small things like:
copy a file from cd to hd : no permissions on the file (viewed from the system's perspective = ok, userfriendly = nok)
media plugins for browsers not always working (fault of website developpers probably but annoying anyway)
cd in drive, not be able to unmount it for some reason, not be able use the eject button on drive so reboot is only solution to get cd out.
...

What I'm gonna miss:
-command line usage
-using 'free' software
-secure feeling
-nice community, forums..
-....

While you're reading this I'm already deleting my ubuntu partition.
Anyway I'll check Ubuntu out in a few years again!


-- gnome is slow compared to other windows apps
try my light kde

- u just need the deb of firefox
install dapper
dist upgrade to dapper, plezase
dapper is much better for video
edgy is piece of ****; too buggy for the moment

-- i used captive to ntfs
but why you dont make a FAT32 or use server linux like everyone ? samba ?

--- there is programs like automount for kde

--- I know 7 months , is not enough for mastering the beast !

Make a friend of someone who knows ab linux & can teach you fast & furiosu , to do more than in windows !!

[djlyx]

Sorry for not keeping abreast with the convo but man this thread is old! Since January wow!

I don't see a reason to say good bye to ubuntu when I can dual boot into windows if I get into problems. I only use windows if I need to, like at work or at school.

And about the forum:
I like it here, folks are cool. I'm staying. And if you knew me in real life, I'm not a people person, so this is quite an anomaly.

[steven8]

And if you knew me in real life, I'm not a people person, so this is quite an anomaly.

Really? Your avatar just screams "I'm a people person!!" :-) Just goofing around. . .

[djlyx]

lol, thats Cam'ron. A rapper from Harlem.

[Fatec]

Well,
The time has come to say goodbye to ubuntu, i'll miss beryl...but the amount of problems i have with ubuntu (and linux in general) is to much for me, i find myself spending hours fixing something and getting nowhere.

On my rig, xp is nice and fast, ubuntu is slow as hell if im multitasking, say if i have azureuz open beryl starts to lag.

but what finally did it for me is the fact i cant play videos back smoothly no matter what playback engine i use, if i try and play back hi-def content cpu jumps to 100%, i get stuttering in the video and frame drops, lets not even mention trying to move the window.

that's something i've never been able to fix despite looking through endelss tutorials, howtos, manuals, everything.

i love ubuntu and linux in general but i think when u find urself playing about for hours on end getting something to work when u know u can do it in 3 clicks in windows, well yes, u kind of dont see the point.

so sad, it's weird having static windows again...but meh, everything is working, hd playback is smooth, videos are smooth and im happy.

i'll try linux/ubuntu again in a few years and HOPE things have improved as right now it seems linux is fine for older hardware but on anything new(ish) it just acts up *sigh*


/gone

[sjnovick]

"i love ubuntu and linux in general but i think when u find urself playing about for hours on end getting something to work when u know u can do it in 3 clicks in windows, well yes, u kind of dont see the point."




Have you tried automatix? http://www.getautomatix.com/

I found that automatix solved nearly all of my "problems" with Linux. It installs all sorts of multimedia codecs and so forth so that you can, for example, view videos and play mp3s. Before you go back to Windows, you may wish to give it a try.

[meng]

Jumping from Windows XP to Ubuntu-plus-Beryl is courageous (to put it tactfully). You'll likely double the number of problems you would have had without Beryl. That said, there's no shame in not making the transition successfully first time, it's like giving up cigarettes, first time is usually not the charm. Don't beat yourself up, and you're right that things will likely improve in future.

[K.Mandla]

Jumping from Windows XP to Ubuntu-plus-Beryl is courageous (to put it tactfully). You'll likely double the number of problems you would have had without Beryl. That said, there's no shame in not making the transition successfully first time. ... Don't beat yourself up, and you're right that things will likely improve in future.
Well said.

[twitchboy]

I would like to make the suggestion that you try Ubuntu without Beryl.

A few weeks ago I totally dumped my windows partition and installed Edgy + Beryl. I really enjoyed the features that Beryl brought to the desktop but I found that I was left with a fairly unstable environment. I found Firefox to be painfully slow and other apps just wouldn't run under Beryl. Also I don't have the worlds fastest computer anymore and I don't really need the overhead.

I've since stopped using Beryl and find things to run much smoother and overall stability has increased. I hope to run Beryl on my desktop some day but for me it only made my transition to Linux more difficult.

[Valinski]

I agree Ubuntu can be hard to learn. I am also new and the learning curve is quites steep. I manage to get through with my limited programming knowledge gained on a music tech course but Ubuntu gives a couple of things XP will never....

1) A free and friendly enviroment
2) Great forum members that will bust their B*lls trying to help you.
3) And the great sense of satisfaction you gain from figuring out something!! :-D

Top marks so far. The big test will come when i begin music making!

[KLineD]

That's usually the case when you first try Linux. With me it was a come and go between different distros and Windows until I installed Warty (the first Ubuntu version I downloaded) and then I have never look back. I admit sometimes I miss the ease of some things but in general I feel more at home with Linux than with anything else.

It has come to a point where I look how to do something in Windows and not the other way around. I recommend you to dual boot and try to solve those problems you mention. Don't use Beryl with your everyday desktop or at least have it run on a separate session that way you can switch back and forth.

[koshari]

say if i have azureuz open beryl starts to lag.

i also found azuerus to be sluggish, so i replaced it with uTorrent running through wine. which takes nowhere near the system resources. Keep in mind that using azuerus in windows is slow also as with all software that needs an interpriter (java ect).

i cant play videos back smoothly no matter what playback engine


this is almost definately a result of running beryl.
what rendering are you using xgl or aiglx?, what video card? while i like beryl and use it on the highest specced box i have (amd3200/nvidia5200) its definitely painfull on machines with lower specs if you want to run #D stuff concurrentsl with it. my more modest boxes use XFCE and gnome desktops and run fine, in fact this boxs ubuntu install runs rings round a windows2K install (and XP is even worse).

multitasking isnt the issue either as i have firefox, utorrent through wine, aMule and amarok running at any given time.

however i will grant you that it does take a bit of time to become fluent with linux in the beginning. however i recall that my initial migration from win3.11 to 95 was not all that rosey, and the constant patching of a windows system , updating viris definitions, spyware ect ect is hardly fun either. not to mention the resources constantly running a software filewall and antivirus use are hardly optimal.

one area i havnt been able to totally kick my windows habit are a few programs that i just cant enjoy y the same level of productivity on linux with yet, namely oziexplorer and dvdlab. so for these i maintain a windows partition on one of my 4 machines.

[koshari]

It has come to a point where I look how to do something in Windows

yeah , like switching desktops or dragging text using tab to autocomplete a command prompt, using arrows to poll through the last few commands or installing amarok?. oh wait you STILL cant do those things in windows.....

[KLineD]

yeah , like switching desktops or dragging text using tab to autocomplete a command prompt, using arrows to poll through the last few commands or installing amarok?. oh wait you STILL cant do those things in windows.....

hehe... among others...

[foureight84]

yea, you should try using automated tools like automatix and user install scripts. it makes life 50 times easier.

i find windows good for gaming but most everything else i am in linux now. i'm still a novice and no where near intermediate level yet. but i have a lot of fun using it.

[matt_risi]

Buddy I was in pretty much the same boat as you, reinstalled XP. That lasted less than 3 weeks. I'd bet my bottom dollar you'll be back to Ubuntu after you see just how bloody BORING Windows is.. unless you're a gamer. ](*,)

[Fatec]

Hi guys, thankyou for all of your replies (wasnt expecting so many)

i would just like to state im not really new to linux, been experimenting on and off for quite a few years now, been using pc's since way back in the dos days.

to the comments about beryl being the problem, i have tried video playback without beryl and it's exactly the same (sluggish, though tearing is gone)

i have used automatix 2 in the past, though some apps i prefer to compile myself (just to learn the ins and out of things)

installing apps is not a problem, i can do beryl, ntfs-3g, kopete, gdesklets etc quite easily.

But i've never worked out how to get smooth playback, ever.

i cant work it out, i see videos of people running ubuntu with beryl..and it's really smooth, i've had mine running like that once (didnt last long)

but my main concern has been video playback, which after spending 3 months trailing without success, i am more than annoyed at having to reboot back into windows to watch a video.

i saw that someone mentioned it could be the pc specs, well i have an amd643200+, 2gb ddr400/pc3700, nvidia 7600gt pci-e gfx, so i dont think that is the problem, i know linux does not have purevideo (which i really miss and wish nvidia would get their asses into gear)

but even in windows just with software playback cpu jumps to 60-70% but the video is smooth, in linux it just jumps straight to 100% and i pretty much cant do anything in the OS at all.

tried all sorts of drivers, playback engines, players, nothing will work :(

and yes, to certain comments, im already missing ubuntu & beryl (static windows, no 3d cube, no vwm really bothers me)

but without smooth video playback i just cant stick to linux :(

[K.Mandla]

That's understandable. Take a break and think about it and come back in a while and see if you can work out the bugs. There's no shame in trying it, going back and trying it again later.

And everybody knows Beryl is as addictive as crack, so you'll be back on our side before long. ... :twisted:

See you soon. :)

[aysiu]

I wish we had more goodbyes like yours, Fatec. Not exactly a testimonial (so I've moved it to a more appropriate place), but it's honest and not critical.

Things didn't work out for you, and you may try again later. That's cool.

Maybe things will work out later, and you always know where you can come for help. Best of luck with XP in the meantime.

[golem3]

-Slower performence in general, GUI less responsive (Gnome)
-Although apt system is very cool, things like not be able to update to new firefox 1.5 smootly i.e. bugs me.
-lack of really good applications I use alot i.e DVDDecrypter, Foobar2000, Exact Audio Copy.
Alternatives like Grip, dvd::rip,.. were ok but didn't had the same power.
Running through Wine worked, but with varrying results. (slow ripping although dma was on, not be able to rip a track while EAC ripped it without problems)
-no NTFS write access (I know, not linux's fault)
-small things like:
copy a file from cd to hd : no permissions on the file (viewed from the system's perspective = ok, userfriendly = nok)
media plugins for browsers not always working (fault of website developpers probably but annoying anyway)
cd in drive, not be able to unmount it for some reason, not be able use the eject button on drive so reboot is only solution to get cd out.


1) If GNOME was slow, did you try KDE? aka Kubuntu?
2)Have you tried WINE for those Windows apps you can't live without (such as DVD Decrypter?)
3)NTFS write ability exists, BTW. You have to put in about 5 mins of work to get it going.
4) Try using Automatix to get all your media needs going?

[golem3]

but without smooth video playback i just cant stick to linux :(

DO enable DMA on your DVD drive. I don't see why video playback would not be smooth otherwise.

[Fatec]

DO enable DMA on your DVD drive. I don't see why video playback would not be smooth otherwise.

this is video playback from the hard drive, not dvd drive..though i admit i've never tested a dvd from the drive.

[djlyx]

to be honest, I think windows is a great OS. It works, its simple to use.
But my two biggest problems with windows is the frequent authenticity checks and virus/adware problems while surfing the net.

It is getting to be a real big PITA

I dont have these problems with ubuntu, therefore ubuntu won!

[graficus]

Well, I too, get really frustrated sometimes and swear that all linux can go to hell, but find myself booting it up again next day.
The worst part is making stuff work. It comes with no ability even to play mp3 out of the box. What's up with that?! Not to mention other stuff.
So if I want to get things done, its XP Pro; if I feel experimental, here goes Ubuntu.
Guess I might be in the wrong category. Windows power user. Linux is more of a geeky entertainment here.

[glotz]

See
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RestrictedFormatsProblem
and
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RestrictedFormats

I think the term windows power user is really funny, like ford power user. I'd rather be auto power user... :)
Hope I'm forgiven for my lame car analogy! :oops:

[graficus]

LOL glotz, you got me, hehe ;) The term is used by M$ so I didn't just come up with it, but it does sound kinda dumb, now that you made think about it.
Thanks for the links. :)

[mugwamp]

I have to agree with the OP. I've spent most of the weekend trying to do a clean installation of Edgy on an IBM NetVista 2.4 Ghz. The best I can do is low resolution and no wireless card. At this point I'm not sure what to do. I've thought about another distro but there will probably be the same problems there. This computer is for a project I'm working on so it's doubtful if I want to spend the amount of time necessary to become a Linux expert. Even at Microsoft prices, the time vs money equation is going to make this decision fairly easy.

I'm beginning to think that Ubuntu is shooting Linux in the foot. The website and book (which I bought) make it sound so easy and wonderful. I just checked a poll on this site and only 24% of the people ungrading had no problems. And that was people upgrading, so you would think that most of them already had experince with Ubuntu and could deal with it. It's OK for Ubuntu to have problems. It's to be expected in any software but be honest about them and warn people so they know what they're getting into.

The forums are filled with people asking for help with their problems, many without any answers. People who complain about their installation problems are told to stop whining. People are quick to tell how easy it was for them. Command line mumbo jumbo is posted but seldom seems to work. As far as I can tell, some hardware works right away and some hardware is a bitch to install. It's the truth but Ubuntu treats it like a state secret. If this keeps up, Ubuntu (and indeed the entire Linux community) will be filled with close-minded, bitter old nerds--much like the people who refused to give up their DOS prompt. They'll make snide jokes about Windows and tell each other how much money they're saving not using Windows. But until the problems get resolved, Linux will never be a widely used operating system.

Good luck with your OS. As for installation, I'd rate it no higher than the Windows 3.1/95 transition. Maybe someday I'll take another look at it. If it's still around.

[RAV TUX]

I'm going back to windows after almost 7 month of Ubuntu experience.
I started off with Hoary and was amazed by the progress linux had made (last time I installed linux was 3 years ago - Slackware ).
Then came Breezy, it had alot of improvements and I know for sure this will continue in further releases.
I spented hours and hours of learing and tweaking and gained alot of knowledge, but after all it's not worth the effort.
i.e spending 3 hours the get vlc to work exactly the way I wanted with GTK2 interface. I asked myself : Shouldn't I spent that time with something usefull (friends, going out...)

Anyway, my 2cents:

-Slower performence in general, GUI less responsive (Gnome)
-Although apt system is very cool, things like not be able to update to new firefox 1.5 smootly i.e. bugs me.
-lack of really good applications I use alot i.e DVDDecrypter, Foobar2000, Exact Audio Copy.
Alternatives like Grip, dvd::rip,.. were ok but didn't had the same power.
Running through Wine worked, but with varrying results. (slow ripping although dma was on, not be able to rip a track while EAC ripped it without problems)
-no NTFS write access (I know, not linux's fault)
-small things like:
copy a file from cd to hd : no permissions on the file (viewed from the system's perspective = ok, userfriendly = nok)
media plugins for browsers not always working (fault of website developpers probably but annoying anyway)
cd in drive, not be able to unmount it for some reason, not be able use the eject button on drive so reboot is only solution to get cd out.
...

What I'm gonna miss:
-command line usage
-using 'free' software
-secure feeling
-nice community, forums..
-....

While you're reading this I'm already deleting my ubuntu partition.
Anyway I'll check Ubuntu out in a few years again!

I really appreciate your input overall, and thank you for your post.

However, since this is really a "Bye, Ubuntu"...I'm going back to windows...

I feel like this thread would be best in the windows forum...

(also posted for staff review)

[rohus24]

yup

[mips]

I did not read through the eight pages of post so someone might have mentioned this already.

Have those that are not satisfied tried a different distro ???

[davarino]

I tried to do a Dapper to Edgy (6.06 to 6.10) upgrade back when Edgy came out. It caused a (temporary) lack of peace between my usually-loving wife and me. That is sufficient grounds in my book to be wary of Edgy. For others, I imagine it would be a durn good reason to swear off any flavor of Linux forever.

Looking back over all the discussions that took place on the fora at that time, it seems that Edgy was simply an idiot savant who didn't take his meds sometimes. Some people did quite well, some got toasted.

The quality of support could be as bad as M$'s in the Rude department. The party line seems to have been: "Well, it says 'edgy'. That should be enough of a clue that you may have a few problems." (I actually received that kind of a message as a reply! :confused:) I suppose with a support system that says things like that you can expect any sort of idiotic "help": "It says Warty. So the graphics will be a little rough." "It says Dapper. So you have to have a good graphics card." I'm kind of afraid about Feisty: will it jackass-kick the crap out of motherboards?

And as was noted by Mugwamp, there were plenty of people who denied that I was having any problem at all because their update/installation was a piece of cake. Tell that to my wife when she lost a load of stuff because of my upgrade according to the "official method".

The publicity about the Edgy release was as irrepressibly optimistic as Redmond's ever is... in spite of the phrase "stable release" not having any meaning other than "the half-yearly promised release, which we have really tried to make work".

I re-installed Dapper, and I'm quite happy with it. I have no plans to touch Edgy, Feisty, or Grumpy. Burned once is enough.

So I guess I'll summarize my two cents worth this way: Don't believe that the latest is the best, or even improved, until you have the evidence to prove it to yourself. It's the same wisdom that keeps smart people from spending $250 or £250 on Vista until someone actually proves that the product has worth - just because the latest Ubuntu release is free/gratis does not mean that it is worth putting your time into it.

Ubuntu (in the Dapper release) is an eminently usable OS that runs well on many configurations. I see no reason to say that Ubuntu is crap... but I can certainly say that a "mature" release (where all the big bugs have been stamped out) is the only way to run an Ubuntu system if you do not eat, breathe, and drink only Linux.

[erlyrisa]

I would have to agree - I stilll have a Ubuntu computer but only check email with it - and only cause I can't be stuffed transfering it to Thunderbirdon Windwos.

-If you really want to use a shell to do something more constructive (instead of showing off your ability to DD and iso) . Powershell seems to be the future of computing - gone is the ability to directly manipulate the computer via compiled programs and in comes the 'open' way of manipulating the computer on a higher level through .net objects. -imagine being able to give full permission to have your computer to be used by another, yet being able to control exactly what .net functions the other WCF computer can execute (whoops instantiate) on yours - belevie me this is the future - forget commandline and think objectline.

[cunawarit]

I’m a little disheartened whenever I read a post about giving up on a certain OS. It really shouldn’t be big news to anyone.

For every person giving up on Ubuntu, XP, OSX, etc… There are thousands upon thousands of other users that are happy, and sticking with it. Imagine if all of them made posts about sticking to their current OS of choice? Posts like this would then seem insignificant.

I do have a couple of questions to the people frustrated with Edgy. If Dapper is a Long Term Support release that will be supported way past Edgy, and you were happy with it, why not stick to that? Or try a different distribution? Or use dual boot, or even two PCs?

[ShagzModo]

Litraot Shlomo! (nosjeg cariot!)

[davarino]

I do have a couple of questions to the people frustrated with Edgy. If Dapper is a Long Term Support release that will be supported way past Edgy, and you were happy with it, why not stick to that? Or try a different distribution? Or use dual boot, or even two PCs?

Well said... even if I am guilty as charged.

I was happy with Dapper, and I admit that the only reason that I changed was because Ubuntu Zentral was saying that Edgy was even better! :roll: I admit it: I believed Unbuntu Zentral. Isn't it human to try to make continuous improvement? (A Japanese word, kaizen, comes to mind.)

I forgot that UZ is just as prone to have hype generators as any other corporate environment. Dumb me. Take me to the woodshed and whup me.

And I forgot that jackasses like me are twopence a bushel, and that the lucky folks will always blame the unlucky for the unlucky's bad luck.

Así es la vida.

[stephentyler20]

After giving Linux/Ubuntu the old College Try, twice, I've decided (reluctantly) to head back to Windows XP Pro permanently (deleting the Ubuntu partition). I'm basing this decision on several key elements, all pertaining to its use on my laptop.

1. The wireless is too much of a pain. I use wireless all the time on my laptop, and I just can't get it to work as well as windows. Network Manager seems to be a good program, but in several distinct incidences, Ubuntu could not see/connect to wireless networks that Windows saw/connected to automatically (this applies to all networking programs I've tried in Ubuntu). Unacceptable, considering I'm often trying to find weak sources of wireless. Wifi does work well in ubuntu when there's a strong signal, but there's NOT always a strong signal!

2. Bluetooth. I have a Treo 650 on Verizon, and all bluetooth functions seem to work better in Windows, and there's a wider variety of uses for it in Windows that I could not obtain in Ubuntu. I'll leave it at that.

3. iTunes. Big one. I use iTunes mostly for downloading TV shows to my iPod, and I also use the laptop to watch these movies from time to time. THere is no way to watch .m4v files in Ubuntu. If I have to keep Windows for this anyway, I'd rather just use Windows all the time.

4. General availability of software. There's too much stuff out there for Windows that I want to try that is not available for Ubuntu, even if you have to pay for it.

That said, I really like the Ubuntu/Linux platform, and I truly wish I could stick with it. Some things are done SO much better than in Windows (e.g., the built in imaging software, open office, general functionality of things, the list goes ON and ON). If some of these issues could be resolved easily, I would consider giving Linux another try. And for sure, I have considered dual booting permanently and keeping Windows around. I just don't have the hard drive space on my laptop, and I don't see the need to keep Ubuntu around for things that Windows can pretty much cover, although in many cases not as well.

Thanks for all the help on this forum!

[mikewhatever]

Sorry you're leaving, but good luck.

[stephentyler20]

Thanks, and I hope no one takes my post as a knock against Ubuntu or Linux, I just wanted to share my views after giving Ubuntu a fair chance as a Windows replacement. For me, it just didn't cut it.

[ComplexNumber]

ok, well, good luck. but keep in mind that 1 year is a long time in the land of open source. things move fast, so please do check back after a while to see how things are progressing.

[DirtDawg]

Zzzzzzzz.....

[glabouni]

1. How vicious is that circle?
Wireless is a pain because manufacturers don't make drivers available to linux because there's not enough people using linux. people don't use linux because wireless doesn't work that well.
oh the irony!

please note that there are other linux distro that have better wireless support than ubuntu does.

2. See 1.

3. AFAIK it is possible to watch m4v files under linux.
I can't stand itunes, I find no interest at all in it, I've tried it and all it did was getting in my way when I tried to listen to music. only use I can think of would require me owning an ipod.
only problem is, I dislike the ipod (other devices did before it and better that is, and now these manufacturer are out of business, because ipod is "à la mode"). beyond that ipod is useless to me because a few years ago I learned that thomson was working on a new mp3 (mp3pro) to enforce its patented use and gain more royalties, I also learned that mp3 was actually copyrighted and generate royalties, I went on and converted all my files to ogg vorbis which ipod doesn't support.
For these reasons I can't help in the matter of using ipod under linux.
once again it is a matter of proprietary software hence vicious circle mentioned at 1.

4. that I fully understand, as I feel the same. as a workaround, I use vmware to run windows, and am planning to later use xen.

anyways be sure to come back later and check for evolution. ubuntu is improving through time, and if you ensure the next hardware you buy has linux compatibility, you'll eventually be able to switch to linux flawlessly.

[stephentyler20]

1. How vicious is that circle?
Wireless is a pain because manufacturers don't make drivers available to linux because there's not enough people using linux. people don't use linux because wireless doesn't work that well.
oh the irony!

please note that there are other linux distro that have better wireless support than ubuntu does.

2. See 1.

3. AFAIK it is possible to watch m4v files under linux.
I can't stand itunes, I find no interest at all in it, I've tried it and all it did was getting in my way when I tried to listen to music. only use I can think of would require me owning an ipod.
only problem is, I dislike the ipod (other devices did before it and better that is, and now these manufacturer are out of business, because ipod is "à la mode"). beyond that ipod is useless to me because a few years ago I learned that thomson was working on a new mp3 (mp3pro) to enforce its patented use and gain more royalties, I also learned that mp3 was actually copyrighted and generate royalties, I went on and converted all my files to ogg vorbis which ipod doesn't support.
For these reasons I can't help in the matter of using ipod under linux.
once again it is a matter of proprietary software hence vicious circle mentioned at 1.

4. that I fully understand, as I feel the same. as a workaround, I use vmware to run windows, and am planning to later use xen.

anyways be sure to come back later and check for evolution. ubuntu is improving through time, and if you ensure the next hardware you buy has linux compatibility, you'll eventually be able to switch to linux flawlessly.

I don't think it's a wifi driver issue. The wireless worked right out of the box, I didn't even need to use ndiswrapper or anything. And it worked just not as well as windows. If I'm at home, where there's always a strong wifi signal, I had no problem connecting on ubuntu. But in places where there's weaker signals, Windows would connect easily, and Ubuntu was wearing blinders. I had time to invest in Ubuntu to learn Linux, maybe if I have more time at some point I'll try a different distro, but I doubt it.

The bluetooth thing is also not a driver issue, it's just not as easy to use/versatile as some of the windows stuff. This is also application-availability related.

I hear what you're saying about iTunes, but I love using it to download TV episodes of my favorite show, as it's been reliable and good quality. I never have, and never will, use it for mp3.

I will be sure to check back for updates!

[hyper_ch]

Well, you could run windows in vmware (as I do) for a small amount of things... you could then use BT also throught vmware / windows [if it's a BT dongle... not sure about the others...] :)

[ComplexNumber]

I don't think it's a wifi driver issue. The wireless worked right out of the box, I didn't even need to use ndiswrapper or anything. And it worked just not as well as windows. If I'm at home, where there's always a strong wifi signal, I had no problem connecting on ubuntu. But in places where there's weaker signals, Windows would connect easily, and Ubuntu was wearing blinders. I had time to invest in Ubuntu to learn Linux, maybe if I have more time at some point I'll try a different distro, but I doubt it.
software can't account for that (ie its very doubtful that windows or ubuntu are factors here). thats a hardware issue.

[catlee]

Just an option for one of your concerns is to use VLC for any and all media. It will play any format (audio, video...) and works on any OS. (We have it on our Linux and Mac machine).

[Aazn]

3. iTunes. Big one. I use iTunes mostly for downloading TV shows to my iPod, and I also use the laptop to watch these movies from time to time. THere is no way to watch .m4v files in Ubuntu. If I have to keep Windows for this anyway, I'd rather just use Windows all the time.


If you lurked a bit more, you would have noticed that there are perfectly suitable alternatives or ways to run iTunes. First of all, install wine. Then, run iTunes.exe. Done.

and I don't see the need to keep Ubuntu around for things that Windows can pretty much cover, although in many cases not as well.

Thanks for all the help on this forum!

Sure, because Windows is the proprietary, buggy, most-supported, bloated Operating System out. Crawl back to your spyware, crawl back to your viruses. We'll see you back soon enough when the Linux revolution starts.

[Patrick-Ruff]

nobody cares that your leaving, your complaints are not original, you are not anything different from the past 10,000 noobs that come in here letting us all know how they want to switch back to windows.

I mean, there's no point in offering alternatives, or anything that could possibly help you because your mind is made up. why post here when you haven't suggested anything actually helpful for the people that are /real/ programmers?

[dasunst3r]

Sorry you have to go. I highly encourage you to come back in six months. Also consider dual-booting!

[stephentyler20]

nobody cares that your leaving, your complaints are not original, you are not anything different from the past 10,000 noobs that come in here letting us all know how they want to switch back to windows.

I mean, there's no point in offering alternatives, or anything that could possibly help you because your mind is made up. why post here when you haven't suggested anything actually helpful for the people that are /real/ programmers?

What gives you the impression that I think anyone cares that I'm "leaving"? Like I said (twice, for those who actually read my posts), I'm not posting this because I'm pissed at Linux, or made a premature / immature decision that Linux is an inferior operating system to Windows, or anything remotely like that. I simply wanted to share my experience, in the "ABSOLUTE BEGINNER TALK" Forum (where all the "noobs" belong you douchebag) so that people who were switching to Linux might benefit from my experience. It bears repeating for those who need to hear it twice (apparently) that I think Linux (Ubuntu) is a great OS, but for the amount of work I put into understanding it (and I feel I got pretty far), it just wasn't worth using it over windows. I was dual booting for several weeks, and I found that even when I was totally comfortable with linux, I was STILL booting back to Windows for certain things (better wifi signal, iTunes, software, etc.). Totally reasonable.

Go post crap like this in the sections that aren't labeled "Absolute Beginner Talk."

[Strider42]

Have to agree with stephentyler here. The two aggresive posts above do more harm than good to the whole OpenSource movement. But then I guess that they are probably a couple of 15 year old spotty geeks with too much testosterone, too much time on their hands and no mates. Here's a hint guys, go toss and lose some of your aggression.

Now is the time when M$ could be quite vulnerable and Linux could make some big inroads. Vista will be an expensive upgrade for pretty much anyone wanting too, and many, especially here in Europe feel they are being ripped off ($229 in the US, £229 in the UK, that's almost twice the cost). Add to that probable hardware upgrades and it becomes serious money. But I feel Linux is still some way behind the times in trying to get a hold of these people. Maybe in 5 years it will be ready, and yes, the revolution might begin, but until then Billy Boy gets a whole lot richer.

[Cuppa-Chino]

nobody cares that your leaving, your complaints are not original, you are not anything different from the past 10,000 noobs that come in here letting us all know how they want to switch back to windows.

I mean, there's no point in offering alternatives, or anything that could possibly help you because your mind is made up. why post here when you haven't suggested anything actually helpful for the people that are /real/ programmers?

lol sorry Patrik-Ruff but that would be an own goal - if you do not care why bother on a) reading the thread at all b) even spending the time posting


sorry to see the man leave, I can understand his pain, I dual boot because of some of the issues he has ...

[r4ik]

Use the OS that fills you're needs and you are comfortable with.
It might be Linux one day....

Good luck !

[m1215]

i agree, use whats best for you. i have done the dual boot and vmware, both are good. i also use wine for some windows only apps. i do understand your reasons, if i had hardware that didn't work or i couldn't get working i would probably be in windows now. of course thats only for must have hardware. im happy i was able to get everything up and delete windows. but if you like linux you have to search, search, search. i have fixed numerous problems by searching, some from very old posts at the back of the line. the only thing i dont know much about is wireless because my home is wired.

[jojoman02]

Hate to see people leave from ubuntu. Here are my Thoughts.

:KS As far as wireless yes it isn't linux' fault, it's the hardware manufacturers

:KS you can play .m4v files (u might try renaming to mpg or .mp4), itunes does suck,

:KS the bluetooth stack & programs are being worked on by the community and improved this is WIP

:KS yes windows is the dominating desktop OS and has most software developed for it for that reason, wine+utorrent works almost perfect on edgy if BT is ur issue & Deluge will kick*ss when mature enough.


Most of these problems (almost all) is not linux' fault. IF you would like to help fix this problem, make your presence known, continue to use a Linux Based OS (it doesn't have to be ubuntu) b/c only then will Hardware Manufacturers and Game Companies and Software developers bring the hardware/software/support you want for linux .

[Mr Nick]

Although I am really new to Linux, I see no problem dual booting. As you have indicated XP does not completely satisfy you. I doubt that you will ever find an operating system that will. Dual booting gives me the best of two worlds.

I think this is more a personality controlled decision, and posting your reasons for leaving, may not be quite as healthy as you perhaps have anticipated.

Please enjoy your Microsoft journey. As for me I plan to stick around long enough until I am able to live without Microsoft.

[aysiu]

I've merged this with the "Bye, Ubuntu" thread.

By the way, I think the OP was extremely mature about the announcement and didn't warrant any hostility.

Come back to Ubuntu when you're ready.

[glabouni]

I agree with you aysiu, except maybe on the being ready part.
from my own experience it's more ubuntu that's not yet ready, mostly because linux lacks expected software.
I find it hard to believe that I was unable to find a gui ftp client to suit me, or a simple tabbed audio player.

here's a page worth reading:
http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/world-domination/world-domination-201.html

[Trebuchet]

Interesting read; thanks for posting that.

As I understand it Vista already cannot address 16-bit apps. It's certainly time to begin moving the bulk of the PC-using population over to 64-bit computing.

Like the authors, I seriously considered buying a Mac (Mini or iMac) before economic factors made me decide to stick with Microsoft through at least one more product cycle. But my guess is I'll be buying an Apple computer somewhere around 2010-11. I personally know several other longtime Windows users considering this move, which does not bode well for Microsoft over the long-term.

[Strider42]

I am certainly thinking of dumping XP for another OS. Like Trebuchet, Apple is my main aim. Does anyone have any thoughts, or experience of running OS X on PC architecture. I know it's been achieved, but is it a realistic option.

That could be a cheaper way to Apple, without the hardware costs - if of course, it works and is stable.

[Trebuchet]

I am certainly thinking of dumping XP for another OS. Like Trebuchet, Apple is my main aim. Does anyone have any thoughts, or experience of running OS X on PC architecture. I know it's been achieved, but is it a realistic option.

That could be a cheaper way to Apple, without the hardware costs - if of course, it works and is stable.My guess is the cost of modifying a PC's architecture would pretty much cancel any significant savings. For one thing, you're obviously going to have to use a Core Duo or Core 2 Duo CPU and corresponding mobo, which are hardly inexpensive. IIRC a licensed copy of Mac OS X costs about $120. If you want to try it anyway (an interesting experiment, to be sure) then I suspect a Mac users' technical forum is the best place to look.

[davarino]

nobody cares that your leaving, your complaints are not original, you are not anything different from the past 10,000 noobs that come in here letting us all know how they want to switch back to windows.

I mean, there's no point in offering alternatives, or anything that could possibly help you because your mind is made up. why post here when you haven't suggested anything actually helpful for the people that are /real/ programmers?

Ah, the rudeness of youth!

I find it especially interesting that there have been "10000 noobs" who have tried Ubuntu and have bothered to come here to tell us that they're going back to Windies. That is something to pay attention to, if it were true. Ten thousand people, even if they are (gasp!) noobs, is something not to be ignored except by the ignorant.

[davarino]

Hate to see people leave from ubuntu. Here are my Thoughts.

:KS As far as wireless yes it isn't linux' fault, it's the hardware manufacturers

:KS you can play .m4v files (u might try renaming to mpg or .mp4), itunes does suck,

:KS the bluetooth stack & programs are being worked on by the community and improved this is WIP

:KS yes windows is the dominating desktop OS and has most software developed for it for that reason, wine+utorrent works almost perfect on edgy if BT is ur issue & Deluge will kick*ss when mature enough.


Most of these problems (almost all) is not linux' fault. IF you would like to help fix this problem, make your presence known, continue to use a Linux Based OS (it doesn't have to be ubuntu) b/c only then will Hardware Manufacturers and Game Companies and Software developers bring the hardware/software/support you want for linux .

jojoman02,

I see things a little differently, although you are quite right about saying the problems are not Linux's fault.

The essence of the problem, unfortunately for us, has little to do with fault.

There are certain things that are difficult to get people to do because a) the work (or money) required is too great, and b) the payoff is too small.

An easily understood example that plagues OpenOffice: full translations into most small-population languages are pitifully lacking.

Of course Twi (7 million speakers) could use a good open source word processor, as could Hmong, O'odham, or even Esperanto, but you're going to go through hell if you expect to find someone dedicated enough to translate the menus and the documentation and cover incidental issues such as keyboard mapping and non-Unicode variants. Not to mention spell-checkers and grammar checkers.

Hours and hours of work, uncompensated (or, shall we say, "donated for the common good") for relatively small groups of users. Do you have the time? Neither do I (even if I am somewhat knowledgable about one or two languages in that list). Is anyone going to donate enough to do the translation? Not that I know of.

Why does M$ offer relatively good Zulu Office translation and documentation (at least as far as I understand)? Because M$ is head-to-head with Ubuntu in an "appearances" battle: M$ does not want to look as though it cares nothing about "burgeoning Africa". (The same, may I cynically suggest, is a minor part of why the Gates Foundation is throwing a lot of money at AIDS. God bless Bill Gates for that.)

Microsoft has the money to divert to non-moneymaking endeavors and to projects that have no large groups of stakeholders... the Linux community is much more "market driven" than it would like to admit.

If the payoff is more than five years away, you are probably not going to see anyone in Linuxstan doing anything about it. On the other hand, Microsoft will clearly invest in little goodwill projects that have tiny-incremental benefits to their business.

Ya see, Linux is not a business, it's a community. And it's a community that still thinks that free is free, rather than that libre is not gratis. Damn the English language if you will.

Which brings me back from my perambulation.

Until the Linux community has anything to offer other than chicks' peeping, open beaks that demand feeding, it will continue to get worms.

We cannot threaten hardware suppliers that they should invest more resources to write another driver for their products, to possibly gain another 3% marketshare. But what if we offered them $5,000 at a whack to do it... most would, or would demand $10,000 and keep it a trade secret by supplying only a binary. Is it worth it? That comes back to our libre/gratis problem.

Until Linux users, from individuals up to national governments, start putting out good money to achieve the "altruistic" stuff, we will always have mediocrity and non-responsiveness to the needs of small parts of the community - with occasional brilliant exceptions from far-sighted unencumbered individuals.

That is the only reason we have those problems you listed. It is not Linux's fault, any more than the Iraq War is the fault of the English language.

The problems you listed are due to the Linux community not taking itself seriously enough to pay people to do the little, difficult, stuff that has no glory.

How do we fix that? Bounties are a fine start, but a much grander vision is needed. What do we want Linux to be in 5 years? M$ knows what they are looking for, and they pay big money to people to figure that out. Do we have any inkling of what we want on a community-wide level, other than not to be swallowed by M$?

Maybe we're doomed to mediocrity because we're cheap. Maybe we don't really want to think that hard about the future of the PC. In either case, there are other people in this world who will not think cheap and will think about the future... and thus they will own the future.

[mobilehavoc]

After now running Ubuntu for a little over 6 months...started with Dapper and upgraded to Edgy recently...I've decided to give up on Ubuntu and stick with Windows.

I'm not happy about this but feel like I have no choice. I love my Ubuntu install, I have XGL and Beryl working, all my apps work great...it's a rock solid system. What's the issue?

Apart from minor grumblings my main issue is the whole Update system. It seems in my opinion that either not enough testing is done prior to updating repos or I just have a very unique system/setup which I find unlikely.

Since I've had my Ubuntu install almost every other Ubuntu update (security, kernel,etc) has broken my install involving several hours in some cases of my time to get it back to where it was.

This is in my opinon TOO MUCH WORK to maintain an OS. As much as people complain about Windows, I've never had an XP update or patch from Microsoft do any damage to my system. I'm currently running Vista and things have improved with that as well.

In the end though, although I am technical enough to handle Linux (CS Major) I'm also lazy and want something that just works. I also don't want to dread every time that little Updates available icon shows up and then have an internal debate with myself whether or not to install them.

I've kept my Ubuntu partition for now but I'll probably just TAR the whole thing and then delete the partition to create more space for Vista.

It was fun while it lasted...maybe will try it again in a couple of months or so. :( :confused:

[teaker1s]

so why not just leave the updates alone when system stable? or at least wait and look on forums first

[RAV TUX]

so why not just leave the updates alone when system stable? or at least wait and look on forums firstgood point, I am not sure making a sweeping statement about Ubuntu makes any sense especially when you are running Beta software on Ubuntu...I wonder how much Beta software you run on Vista?

I see this as just another I like windows more for what ever reason thread...

[RAV TUX]

merging this thread with the "bye Ubuntu" thread in the windows forum.

[smiggs]

so why not just leave the updates alone when system stable? or at least wait and look on forums first

Desktop users shouldn't have to do this, it really should just work first time when Microsoft delivery an update 99% of the time there are no ill-affects on the the system it should be the same for Ubuntu.

That said if you truely want a rock solid system on Ubuntu you might be better sticking with Dapper on LTS without the fancy graphical front ends.

[mobilehavoc]

I'm not an idiot, I know I'm posting this in Ubuntu forums so responses will be biased...I'm not looking for empathy or anything like that. I'm just posting my reasons for leaving Ubuntu in case others out there are considering using it or whatever.

Yes I know I can use Dapper but even with Dapper many updates including ones marked as Critical Security Updates completely hosed my install...I ended up having to rollback some updates until a fix was on the repos (i.e. Xorg update that killed my Xserver). This is absolutely unacceptable if Ubuntu wants to be considered as being the primary system and not just a plaything. It's also not limited to Ubuntu but even other packages such as Compiz/Beryl - yes I know it's beta and whatnot but even still how can you release updates that break the app for a large portion of users with no regard? I've used LOTS OF BETA software on Windows PCs and never had these kinds of issues.

To the person that said I should use Dapper without XGL/Beryl then why the hell should I use Ubuntu at all? I like Ubuntu/Linux for the flexibility and being able to do things I can't in Windows. Without XGL/Beryl there really isn't anything that Ubuntu offers me that Windows doesn't...and don't start with stability because my XP desktop and Vista laptop are as stable if not more stable (due to these updates) as any Linux distro I've tried.

I use the same browser (Firefox) on both Linux and Windows and I already have a lot of Windows software that is comprable and sadly most times better than OSS counterparts on Linux. For me personally having a 3D Desktop was a big draw.

All I'm saying is that for me personally, until updates become more reliable I don't think I can consider Ubuntu to as a viable alternative to Windows.

[peacekpr]

All I'm saying is that for me personally, until updates become more reliable I don't think I can consider Ubuntu to as a viable alternative to Windows.

I somewhat agree with this statement. I love Ubuntu and have been Windows free for well over a year now. When I get a software update notification from Ubuntu, I carefully examine what those updates are. As bad as this sounds, I will not upgrade anything having to do with the kernel unless I know I have the time (and the patience) to deal with the consequences. For example, I use this machine to do my Distance Learning school work (i.e. streaming video lectures, web access, etc.). I am very hesitant to install new updates during the semester since I fear not being able to watch my lectures and get my work done.

That being said, is all of this worth leaving Ubuntu? Not for me - I've been using it for quite some time now, and at the rate things are going, I will continue to use it into the foreseeable future. Consider this... will not updating your linux kernel for a few months put you in a worse situation (from a security standpoint) than using Microsoft Windows? Probably not.

[mobilehavoc]

I somewhat agree with this statement. I love Ubuntu and have been Windows free for well over a year now. When I get a software update notification from Ubuntu, I carefully examine what those updates are. As bad as this sounds, I will not upgrade anything having to do with the kernel unless I know I have the time (and the patience) to deal with the consequences. For example, I use this machine to do my Distance Learning school work (i.e. streaming video lectures, web access, etc.). I am very hesitant to install new updates during the semester since I fear not being able to watch my lectures and get my work done.

That being said, is all of this worth leaving Ubuntu? Not for me - I've been using it for quite some time now, and at the rate things are going, I will continue to use it into the foreseeable future. Consider this... will not updating your linux kernel for a few months put you in a worse situation (from a security standpoint) than using Microsoft Windows? Probably not.
The sad thing is it's not just kernel updates which I agree you could skip if you were paranoid but other random updates.

I just think it's a lame response to be "well just don't update" rather than improving things where I could let the system automatically install updates without issue - just like I've had Windows do for years with no issue.

Again, my priority these days since I don't have time to play around with stuff is a stable, reliable system that needs as minimal attention as possible and unfortunately Ubuntu hasn't been it these days.

[peacekpr]

You do bring up a valid point, and I understand your frustration as it is frustrating to me sometimes, too.

[teaker1s]

people will choose what they want in the end and I fail to see the benefit of these type of threads other than to seek attention when they are leaving anyway, If you have completely un compatible then ubuntu may not be for you.

If someone is unprepared to check the forums before updating,then really if you want windows then use windows.
by the time you start installing antivirus/ antispyware software, defrag, scandisk etc it's not this great fix people claim.

mountain out of a very small mole hill

[smiggs]

To the person that said I should use Dapper without XGL/Beryl then why the hell should I use Ubuntu at all? I like Ubuntu/Linux for the flexibility and being able to do things I can't in Windows. Without XGL/Beryl there really isn't anything that Ubuntu offers me that Windows doesn't...and don't start with stability because my XP desktop and Vista laptop are as stable if not more stable (due to these updates) as any Linux distro I've tried.


XGL and Beryl are beta products so by all means use them but if you can't really expect a trouble free desktop if you do use them. From my point of view I use Linux and Gnome because I prefer the interface to the Windows XP frontend. I've not tried Vista yet myself but I understand the desktop effects are ahead of those of the vanilla Gnome or KDE desktop. Surely though the flexibility of Linux should be the only reason you need to stay with Linux in some flavour?

[Rodneyck]

This is in my opinon TOO MUCH WORK to maintain an OS. As much as people complain about Windows, I've never had an XP update or patch from Microsoft do any damage to my system. I'm currently running Vista and things have improved with that as well.

In the end though, although I am technical enough to handle Linux (CS Major) I'm also lazy and want something that just works. I also don't want to dread every time that little Updates available icon shows up and then have an internal debate with myself whether or not to install them.

:

Firstly, Linux is not Windows. I think there in lies your problem. To much comparing and not enough disconnecting from the mothership to give something "different" a try. Where is it written that Linux is trying to be like Windows?

If you can get by that, linux is not, as you say a "lazy" man or woman's OS. It requires learning and the ability to figure things out. I assume from you comments, you are neither one of these, so I say goodbye and thanks for stopping by. Windows is clearly meant for you and vice versa.

):P

[davarino]

so why not just leave the updates alone when system stable? or at least wait and look on forums first
I imagine that mobilehavoc's biggest beef is that updates are presented as being worthwhile from the security and performance standpoint. (Read what "Software Updates" tells us when it starts: "Software updates correct errors, eliminate security vulnerabilities and provide new features.")

That pretty much implies that it "just works", doesn't it?

[davarino]

people will choose what they want in the end and I fail to see the benefit of these type of threads other than to seek attention when they are leaving anyway, If you have completely un compatible then ubuntu may not be for you.

If someone is unprepared to check the forums before updating,then really if you want windows then use windows.
by the time you start installing antivirus/ antispyware software, defrag, scandisk etc it's not this great fix people claim.

mountain out of a very small mole hill
I find it interesting that there are three issues that can be replied to in this one message - you are very concise!

1) mobilehavoc wants Ubuntu (6.10, by the way) to "just work". Pretty reasonable, in my book. (Probably he should have stuck with 6.06, but the team was so hot on testosterone when 6.10 came out that we all figured it was a really good version in good condition... and a lot of us got slapped back into reality. Apparently mobilehavoc is stubborner than I: I went back to Dapper and will wait for the next LTS.)

2) This kind of a thread is an opportunity for an "exit interview". If EI's are important when a person is leaving an employed position, they are even more valuable when a person leaves a community that has his membership as a reason for its existence. An exit interview is not a time for rudeness (or even agreeing with one's self-appraisal as "lazy"). Why do[ people leave our hallowed presence?

3) How does a person "do triage" on whether Ubuntu (or anything else) is going to fit in with his way of doing things? The obvious answer from the back benches is "use the LiveCD!" - but there is much more to it than that. Part of the "Ubuntu experience" is updates... and updates that break things are not really what "just works". Expectable to the geeks among us, but thoroughly disconcerting to the grandma/grandpa putterer... and irritating even to the geek when repetitive.

I have been fortunate enough not to have dealt with the post-update problems mobilehavoc has, but then again I walked away from 6.10 four months ago a much more cautious person.

mobilehavoc's complaints (or perhaps it's better to call them comments) call forth for us a few questions about the Ubuntu movement (and even ourselves?):

* are we trying to make Ubuntu easier for the Average Joe or not?

* do we even really care about the Average Joe?

* are we willing to believe that intelligent people can disagree with us about which inconveniences are important and which are not?

I am quite happy with 6.06 and I was quite unhappy with 6.10. I can imagine that there are others out there who have neither the patience nor the time to fool around for hours with their computer, who would see XP or Vi$ta as a sound alternative to 6.10... or even to the weaknesses in 6.06.

If indeed Ubuntu requires the extra patience and true believer dedication that Rodneyck implies, well doggone it... why don't we just tell everyone "Don't bother with Ubuntu if you are stupid or lazy!" right on the download page?

You know why we don't: because somewhere deep inside we really want to believe that there are others out there who can be our friends who will cherish this thing as much as we do.

Maybe, teaker1s, this thread is not for you because your heart is broken when you see your beloved's warts.

[Kateikyoushi]

people will choose what they want in the end and I fail to see the benefit of these type of threads other than to seek attention when they are leaving anyway, If you have completely un compatible then ubuntu may not be for you.

If someone is unprepared to check the forums before updating,then really if you want windows then use windows.
by the time you start installing antivirus/ antispyware software, defrag, scandisk etc it's not this great fix people claim.

mountain out of a very small mole hill

I find these threads useful for learning what turns off people, even if it is the regular ubuntu is not free windows I am off, at least could get a picture what was their opinion.

So you mean people who use ubuntu should visit community supported forums to learn whether the newest upgrades are going to break their system or not. Seems fairly professional to me.

This attitude reminds me so much what we got from university server admins 10 years ago and the useful RTFM comments. There are and were distros where you have to dig mailing lists and repair stuff by your hand I think that's not the main goal of ubuntu.

Actually it is you who make mountain of a hill with bashing win because have to install some software and run once a month.

[teaker1s]

want windows pay for it, want linux for free then:-
Bit people fail to grasp is many components were first made to work with windows and support in linux is either due to the understanding of companies like nvidia or by reverse engineering-either way development and funding spent is nothing compared to what is spent on windows.

Secondly the operating system is completely free and how many components have a linux logo on them as 100% natively compatible=very few.

So if someone can't be understanding about how hard people have worked just to get many things working or bothered to check the forums before they hit the update button on their FREE OS then if it breaks for your it's unfortunate.

And to complain when running beta software as some have:rolleyes:

Secondly lets not have a nirvana where windows update always works-I've had many a windows computer bork on updates. worse still the endless restarts and time wasted while windows messes about-makes checking the forums and hitting the update tab a joy

[davarino]

want windows pay for it, want linux for free then:-

Then, "what?" We should shut up? Or pretend we have a great OS when it keeps dying? In your opinion, what should an accepter of Linux do (or perhaps, "put up with")?

I seem to recall that I started up with Ubuntu because it was being promoted as a good OS by Canonical.

If something is being promoted as being good, then those who say it is are implicitly inviting criticism if any weaknesses surface, right?

Of course there has been a lot of unbelievably dedicated work devoted to Linux and Ubuntu. I am grateful. Pease note:
I am willing to pay... even though some people feel that the libre/gratis distinction is too pedantic I am not willing to blindly say something is good when it is lacking I believe that publicizing flaws can be a quite valuable service from others
There are a lot of people who may disagree with point (1), but nobody whose opinion is worth at least a halfpenny is going to disagree with (2), and no one whose opinion is worth at least a full penny will disagree with (3).

Many of us were not motivated to use Ubuntu because it cost nothing... but because it was being offered as a solution to problems other than "OS cost". (Some of us are not afflicted with the notion that things that cost money are either beyond us or are somehow dirty.) We actually want an OS that "just works" - and we're not over-worried about the money involved. Is that too difficult to understand?

"We gain if we accept criticism for what its message is, rather than for how it affects our endocrine system."

[teaker1s]

If as you say it keeps dying that would suggest you are either altering beyhond your ability or just hitting the updates button without checking to see what issues there are.
My grandparents run edgy faultlessly and I run two desktops on dapper and edgy-stable and haven't bothered with updates.
kernel updates can be seen as same as windows version upgrades.

If you feel that You require more support then maybe you could pay a linux expert or Canonical to support you.

I will be leaving this thread because I feel there is nothing more to add

[ubuntuman001]

I haven't read any posts except the first one, and I've got to say, I am one with the OP.

I also used ubuntu as my main OS for like 6 months, but then decided its not worth the effort, for the same reasons. I still pop in a live cd now and then, and i download betas sometimes (for example, I've downloaded herd 3 and 4 of feisty)

I will keep up with ubuntu however, and maybe one day it'll impress me so much, that once again I would install it as my main OS.

Right now, though, I will use windows xp, and nothing more. (not going to switch to vista, no point)

[Lux9698]

I don't know, I don'y know.

If I should just laugh or just cry about that.

I make my living out of Microsoft.
BUT.
There is 1 thing for sure.
With Linux (Ubuntu) commes a great learning curve.
And once in a while you hear people crying about,
that such and such Application would not run on Ubuntu.

Well.
Just let me say 2 things here.
1st. of all, people, you took the time to learn it on Microsoft side, to got the right result, right ?
2nd. I'm personal, NEVER EVER found a problem what I could not fix on Ubuntu
(honestly, mostlikly in reading this rock solid, informativ forum),

FORUM PEOPLE you rock :guitar:

Neither could I find an Application who would not give me the same result, as
on Microsoft side.

It doesn't matter what OS you going to use, you need to learn to handle it.

I personally "signed up" for Ubuntu.
Solid stable, secure, no viruses, no personal headers to the company.
No high Dollar paying for an OS what other companies would call BETA versions.

[Lonelynoob]

That's right, I quit.

I am outside of the 85% that say they enjoy Ubuntu.

I quit. Sorry. I can't stand the frustration any longer.

No skin off anyone else's teeth I understand, but I'm passing hour 30 and not a single thing has worked properly, in fact, it's getting worse. I do not expect anything to be running -even CLOSE to perfectly after only a day and a half- but I do expect at least ONE thing to makes SENSE, at least after I've been studying it non-stop for that long.

Unaccessible, completely foreign and frustrating beyond all f*ck, I can't sit here any longer. As far as I'm concerned, Ubuntu, just flat out doesn't work. I can't tell an operating system I don't understand how to operate.

It would've been nice to use. But I can't use something I'm finding unusable.

If anyone wants to take one final go, feel free, but for the sake of my brain, I've been sitting here frustrated for far too long.

[peeps21086]

Absolutly horrible post. Ubuntu has been nothing but good to me. It may be a result of user error IMO.

[overdrank]

That's right, I quit.

I am outside of the 85% that say they enjoy Ubuntu.

I quit. Sorry. I can't stand it.

No skin off anyone else's teeth I understand, but I'm passing hour 30 and not a single thing has worked properly, in fact, it's getting worse. I do not expect anything to be running -even CLOSE to perfectly after only a day and a half- but I do expect at least ONE thing to makes SENSE, at least after I've been studying it non-stop for that long.

Unaccessible, completely foreign and frustrating beyond all f*ck, I can't sit here any longer. As far as I'm concerned, Ubuntu, just flat out doesn't work. I can't tell an operating system I don't understand how to operate.

It would've been nice to use. But I can't use something I'm finding unusable.

If anyone wants to take one final go, feel free, but for the sake of my brain, I've been sitting here frustrated for far too long.

I too have been frustrated with OS too. But sometimes you have to step back and calm down and things come together. Good luck. :(

[Lonelynoob]

"Absolutly horrible post. Ubuntu has been nothing but good to me. It may be a result of user error IMO."

Congrats on having things peachy.

Confusion and bewilderment is not an error.

[shaft350x]

A 30 hour sprint with it may not be the best either. I've broken X several times already, and then I finally learned how to use a backup file instead of reinstalling Ubuntu from the LiveCD. Learning the "lingo" and style of Linux (like where the heck did I just save that to?) will take a bit. I'm sure adjusting from Win 3.1, to 95, to 98, to 2000, to ME, to XP, to Vista, whichever you may have done, took some relearning as well.

Give it some time, hopefully the next time you go around you'll be able to breeze through more parts of the process.

[potterzot]

Sorry to hear things aren't going well. maybe it would be best to just start over with a new install? If you have specific questions I can try and help you out some. I'm sure others have offered help already, but yeah, if you need some, let us know what in specific is happening. If you'd like someone to help you through the bootup/install stage, let me know.

[ragadanga63]

It's not horrible. Just because he has a different experience as yours doesn't mean his post is horrible. He's calling it as he sees it. Let's credit him for his candidness. Instead of your useless reply, let's instead ask him what he did and help him out so he'll remain inside the Ubuntu community. Attitude like yours will discourage others having difficulties.

[aysiu]

I've merged you into the "Bye, Ubuntu" thread, so you can hang out with the other 15%.

[luke411]

One of the things you have to understand is that Linux means learning to do things differently. Also keep in mind that some times it means some hardware and some pc's are just not going to work, no matter how much you study and try to understand it. A common belief about linux is that "I can throw it on any old piece of crap and it'll run and since it's free, I don't want to put it on a real computer". There is some truth to that but as a new user, people tend to beat themselves before they start with that mentality. Just read some of the posts where people try to install in on a pc that does not even have an internet connection and then wonder why they can't update it. Like linux is some magical OS that they can concvince to do things with that they wouldn't even ask windows to do.
Most of us felt the same way you do and if you look at the 'join' dates on the posts here, you'll see people who have been using Ubuntu much longer than 30 days and they are still on here asking questions. It's a difficult OS to feel comfortable with and it can be a little overwhelming to come to a forum like this, ask for help, and then not even know what you are typing or why, when you try to follow the recomendations.
Having said all of that, everyone on this forum is here to help if you have the patience to keep asking, most of us will have the patience to keep helping you the best that we can. Many times, even for those of us who have used linux for many years get frustrated but we've also learned to say "when" when dealing with stubborn hardware. Could every modem in linux work, or could every printer have a secret 'work-around' to make it go? Maybe but at some point if you want to keep your sanity, you learn to buy hardware that is linux friendly and are willing to scrap the idea of trying to get an internal wireless card to work and go buy a suitable USB NIC instead. Most new people are not willing to do that. They think the OS is free so there's no need to put any money in their system. "Linux should work on any old piece of crap I install it on".
The real power of linux, and Ubuntu, is once you get the hardware configured and working there is no need to do anything else except use it. In fact if you choose, you NEVER have to upgrade your system and it will continue to plug along nicely. Try that with another OS. But while some things are easier, others are harder. For example, my work uses a MS Exchange server but they don't allow us to sync to it with Outlook, using Windows, out of the office. I have to log onto their web page and check my mail like it's Hotmail or something. With Evolution (on Linux, not Windows) I can sync all of my folders and contacts just as if I was sitting in the office. The other side of the coin is that when I am home and connect to my wireless network I have to use manual IP addresses or my pc won't connect. Inconvenient? Yes. Could it be worked out? Probably. But it works for me and I have learned to do that task differently than I would with windows. I could go pick up a USB NIC and use it instead and that would end it and one day I might, but again it's a trade off like any other os.
With Windows Vista, and all 4 versions, none of which are supported by IPODS or most of the programs windows users have come to rely on work, I don't think anyone can call Linux confusing anymore. In fact I read where the FAA is thinking about switching to Linux and dumping windows because of Vista and it's lack of support.
The decision is yours to make but I just wanted you to know that we're all here to help should you decide to grind on.

[windozer]

I started using ubuntu about a week ago. I spent one annoying day getting it installed and running (with the new windows installer). The next 2 days were probably the most frustrating I have ever had with a computer, I even posted here saying I was about to give up. Trying to get my modem working was the worst part, but there were some other issues..
Anyway after getting my modem and graphics card working properly (and in the process learning some terminal commands and how to edit files like xorg.conf), things have generally been fine. I can comfortably use ubuntu, I don't even care that I have to run eciadsl-start as root in the terminal to connect to the internet.
The problem is all with getting started. At least in Windows, where as a new user you don't have to use the command prompt, you can figure things out yourself/guess what to do by looking around in the control panel or a settings window or wherever. You will probably find an option or setting that you need to change. But you can not do this in a terminal window; a noob is never going to guess that they need to type su or sudo or gedit..
I still think ubuntu really needs to be made more noob friendly. More things need to be implemented into the gui.

[Lonelynoob]

Thank you ragadanga63....


Well you have to understand, and repeatedly back yourself out of the "understanding" tree here.

When it comes to Windows, I'm the "computer friend". I get phone calls out of the blue from friends I haven't seen in 7 years because they need computer help.

I know. Absolutely nothing. About Linux/Ubuntu. That's NOTHING. Pretend instructions on how to build a rocket is in Chinese. So when someone says "put the file in your home folder", I might as well be humping the crack in the couch. Nothing.

I had 6.06 installed. Problems. Specifically the resolution and wireless card. I followed as detailed instructions as I could find for HOURS, well over a day straight. Nothing. Still the same. So......

I installed 6.10. Problems remain, only the wireless doesn't receive power any longer. It was at that point the "ah, **** it" began setting in.

Having repeated tutorials and numerous people continually bark how "simple" this is and how grandparents can use it, does nothing but **** me off.

(Things that make me feel stupid is a fairly big weak spot for me if you haven't caught on.)

[windozer]

Thank you ragadanga63....


Well you have to understand, and repeatedly back yourself out of the "understanding" tree here.

When it comes to Windows, I'm the "computer friend". I get phone calls out of the blue from friends I haven't seen in 7 years because they need computer help.

I know. Absolutely nothing. About Linux/Ubuntu. That's NOTHING. Pretend instructions on how to build a rocket is in Chinese. So when someone says "put the file in your home folder", I might as well be humping the crack in the couch. Nothing.

I had 6.06 installed. Problems. Specifically the resolution and wireless card. I followed as detailed instructions as I could find for HOURS, well over a day straight. Nothing. Still the same. So......

I installed 6.10. Problems remain, only the wireless doesn't receive power any longer. It was at that point the "ah, **** it" began setting in.

Having repeated tutorials and numerous people continually bark how "simple" this is and how grandparents can use it, does nothing but **** me off.

(Things that make me feel stupid is a fairly big weak spot for me if you haven't caught on.)
First of all chill out a bit, getting stressed only makes it worse (I know it's hard, read my post above; I had similar problems). Once you get your internet and graphics sorted out things will get much easier very quickly.
It's not that different for the most part.. Some things have different names, but I haven't found it very hard to figure out what most things mean. Terminal = command prompt. Applications/places/system = start menu. Filesystem = C:\, Root = administrator etc.
Your home folder I guess is like "c:\documents and settings\username". Click places at the top of the screen and its probably there. Have you played around with the interface? Looked at ubuntu's version of add/remove programs? Poke around a bit and you will quickly learn.
One thing you need to know is that you are not logged in as root/administrator. Go into user accounts and change the root password. You will need to run some things with root permissions to make them work. In a terminal window you can type su and it will ask you for the root password, and now you can run root commands. Sudo does something similar.
Also if you are the local techie, you should be familiar with using the command line/terminal and have a basic idea of what a kernel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kernel_(computer_science)) is (the core chunk of an operating system). If not a quick google or look on wiki should sort you out.

[yigal.weinstein]

The command line is awesome. You can do things very fast and effortlessly with a little training in the command line. I understand what you are saying it easier initially to work on windows because micro. has worked hard to make the experience manageable by inexperienced users - possibly not as well as Macintosh ( but this is debatable). Really it has to do with what your interests are in using a computer and how much time you can use to set yourself up.

You will never stop having to configure files via command line, or/and with plain text editors but it is a lot of fun to be able to understand some of the nuts and bolts of the operating system one is dealing with. But you are right not everyone wants to know or should have to know how a car works in order to use one. Best, and I hope you come back to the Linux community when you have a little to play around and if you want to, it is worth it - this is rather subjective though.

Yigal

[Lonelynoob]

Thank you for defining a few of those terms...

"Once you get your internet and graphics sorted out things will get much easier very quickly."

This is a mojor problem.. Because I don't know what else I have to do to make it work, I don't follow the insturctions given to me, and I'll need to go out and buy a new wireless card as I'm just assuming that it has ceased to work, so in my frustration i just f%&king smashed it. (Felt great by the way).. I have an old PCMCIA ethernet card, but I'm missing the old ethernet/3com connecting cable, so I'll need to get that as well.. So the internet is a problem lest I just connect through the dial up.. which I would use if I knew what to look for once connected.

The resolution though.... beyond me. completely beyond me. I wish I was a rich man, because I would just say "1000 bucks to the first one to explain it in understandable terms that works." because, if you're anything like me, computer frustration is a very strange "next level" of frustration. A combination of feeling utterly stupid and hopeless with a few cups of plain ol computer frustration, while I get to watch everybody else "get it" working.. just sends it over the edge....

thanks in advance

[kittyhawk63]

What a thread! SpaceDogg posted one comment about going back to Windows and literally "left" the scene. Here we are some 400+1 posts later and I don't think he was around any longer than the minute or two it took him to post and sign out. Maybe it will set a record before it is over.
kh

[enopepsoo]

Pebkac.

[steveneddy]

Maybe you can try to get a dual boot first.
Use windows as your main, then learn linux along the way.


This is how I started using Linux. For someone who is smart enough to understand what they are doing, then this is the very best way to start learning how to actually USE your computer.

Anyone who can grasp the concept of partitioning a hard drive and installing an OS of ANY flavor and actually dual booting, this brings a since of accomplishment to a beginner and should make them a little braver to try things most of take for granted, like the

TERMINAL !!!!

Been using Linux for 4 years now and when I joined the Ubuntu forums, I had been using Ubuntu for about three months already. As soon as I started reading the forums here, this is when I found out the power of actually USING the forums as a tool to learn and improve my Linux skills instead of pouting that couldn't get it to run right.

To each his own, I suppose, and Linux is all about choice and if he wants to use Windows, then that's his choice?

I wonder if he ever came back to read any of this.....

-SE

[steveneddy]

Pebkac.

Well said (typed?)

[steveneddy]

I don't even care that I have to run eciadsl-start as root in the terminal to connect to the internet.


I was lurking around in another forum and read about your internet connection problem and I was just wondering.....

Why not use a router if you are on ADSL? It seems like a lot easier way to stay connected to the internet instead of using a program on the PC to provide Internet connectivity.

Just a thought...

-SE

[cborga1985]

Sorry guys and gals, I'm gave it a shot and I;m going to have to say good bye to Linux and Ubuntu. Without wireless support and an easy way to install programs, this is something that I'm not going to get. I'm a windows user and that's all there is to it.

I tried, but it just isn't going to work.
ndiswrapper = wireless, repositories w/apt = ease of software installation

[umattu]

Unfortunatley I work in an IT dept. that is VERY windowscentric. My NA just loves bashing linux in general. So I am stuck using windows 5 days a week. Now if I had a dime for everytime I went to open a terminal to install an app or to change settings I'd be rich.

My point is that, when you are working at a windows machine and you mistakinly try installing stuff ubuntu style, it says a lot for the ease of use.

I don't bash windows, because it is a waste of breath. I think XP is a great OS (as far as M$ OSes go), but it took me time to realize that I was faced with just as many "issues" in XP as I was in ubuntu. I realized that there was always something that I was trying to find a patch or update to fix this or that, some issues went unresolved. Atleast in ubuntu I have the best OS resource in the world (this forum DUH) and nothing goes unresolved.

Most people coming from Windows to ubuntu have probably bought ready to go M$ boxes. and never had to face the fact that not everything in a wqindows environment is as easy as they assume.

As for me and my machines

VIVA UBUNTU!!!!!!!:guitar:

[DKYang]

Goodbye ubuntu. Although I might come back, but for now. I'm going back to XP.

Reason:

I had no trouble really. I liked beryl's feature (one of the main reasons why I tried ubuntu) and some other features. Of course, the only bad thing was getting to run windows apps. I had my troubles, searched the internet, and posted here. Couldn't really solve, but I didn't care if I could or couldn't. I'm only using it on my Dell e1505 and it's mainly used for school and, from now on, presentation stuff for church. Since I'm used to XP a lot more than with ubuntu, I'm gonna use XP again. I don't care about spyware and that other stuff because I know what sites to not go to and what not to download, etc.

Since I just switched my major from pre-med to computer engineering. I have to talk to my advisor and look over my future scheduling and all that other stuff. I got to study and don't want to cause any problems with my laptop. Also, I'm in charge of presentation stuff with my youth group and other tech stuff. I know ubuntu can do it to, but the softwares I'm going to need to run only work for XP. I tried to install with wine with no success and I'm not going to use VMware because there's only 60 GB of hard drive space that I'll definitely need.

I was ok with XP in the beginning, except the boot loading time, but then again, I usually get stuff out or read the newspaper during the start up so it doesn't bother me much.


I know for a fact that I'll come back to linux when I have more time on my hand and try other distros, but for now I'm going back to XP.

Sayonara ubuntu. *whatever smiley works, input here*

[Lucifiel]

Spacedogg said that he was leaving and this thread was posted over a year ago. However, if you look at his profile, he was last active about 12 hours ago. Hmmm...

[akirksey]

Utter frustration.



So anyway, I think that Ubuntu, given time, will be right up there with Windows in ease of use.

Maybe he'll be back.

Heh.

During my dual boot endevour as a beginner I was amazed by how much windows did to identify my hardware and how much ubuntu did. Ubuntu identified 90% of my hardware once installed, the three it didn't were obscure or have legal issues surrounding them. It failed to identify my broadcom chipset, my monitor and my SD card drive. Windows on the other hand identified 0% of my hardware. The hunt for drivers compatible with windows took three days and even the dell webpage with all the drivers for everything was sorta hard to figure out. Ubuntu is super easy and you programers and hard core beta testers should be proud of what you have all accomplished so far. Your efforts have really pushed forward modern computing.

[Punker]

I don't think I'm going back to windows I used linux on and off for about 4 years and I learned about ubuntu 3 months ago and have not stoped reading and learning I'm real happy buy the way it works for me! the only hardware it did not detect is my sound card but I worked it out. with some help in the forum and irc ubuntu is buy far my fav distro
have a nice day!

[shotgunefx]

Sorry but why do people feel the need to announce this?

I can see why (potentially). I almost did the same thing. Not to make a difference, not to suggest why, just to vent my numerous frustrations at what was at the time, apperaring to be a huge, huge waste of effort (a couple hundred hours in time, easy).

The problems I was having were not limited to Linux and drivers, but a lot of OSS stuff that I needed to bring it all together (libs, etc). I'm not against learning stuff, patching what I can, but I really don't have the time to learn everything about everything nor do I wish to.

BTW, I'm a big OSS fan and use it whenever possible, I wasn't close to renouncing it or anything, just was going to say screw it on this one project.

Luckily I didn't and plowed through most of it, and what was left, OSS caught up in fixing what was broken or supporting what wasn't for the most part. Granted most desktop users would never hit most of these problems, but for someone just looking for a windows replacement, any of them probably would have been a dealbreaker.

[Punker]

I can see why (potentially). I almost did the same thing. Not to make a difference, not to suggest why, just to vent my numerous frustrations at what was at the time, apperaring to be a huge, huge waste of effort (a couple hundred hours in time, easy).

The problems I was having were not limited to Linux and drivers, but a lot of OSS stuff that I needed to bring it all together (libs, etc). I'm not against learning stuff, patching what I can, but I really don't have the time to learn everything about everything nor do I wish to.

BTW, I'm a big OSS fan and use it whenever possible, I wasn't close to renouncing it or anything, just was going to say screw it on this one project.

Luckily I didn't and plowed through most of it, and what was left, OSS caught up in fixing what was broken or supporting what wasn't for the most part. Granted most desktop users would never hit most of these problems, but for someone just looking for a windows replacement, any of them probably would have been a dealbreaker.
bla bla bla go write a book

[shotgunefx]

bla bla bla go write a book

Well, that was certianly an informative reply. :roll:

[regomodo]

I've given up with Linux for the second time. I've spent almost a month configuring my Ubuntu Edgy install and things are still not satisfactory or working.

It's an improvement since i last tried Linux (Slack and Ark 6months ago). However, there is just too much that will not work for me.

Negatives
Sound is not configured correctly -deep bass is distorted
Buggy software - Quod Libet (random crashes), Amarok (complete freeze up whilst eating resources), Ktorrent (puts its tray icon wherever the hell it wants or not at all), Nautilus, Beryl was nice (followed to the word) until a restart and X went mad with errors on boot (found out it was a problem using the latest nVidia drivers which didn't agree too well). Couldn't get Compiz to work
Didn't detect the proper resolution for my widescreen 17" TFT

DVD:rip is a joke (compared to Gordian Knot with DVD Decyrpter) as is CUPS. It was as bad as when i used it 6months ago. My Epson C66 is slow enough through windows but to print even slower and worse in Linux was too much for me.

Samba networking is not as easy as i was lead to believe (always asked for passwords)

Lack of decent Photography software (i'm used to Vuescan, Photoshop and Bridge CS2). Bibblepro is too slow and clunky. Used it last time with Ark. It's well featured but i also found the interface too clunky. Lightzone is good despite its slowness. Also, lack of monitor profiling is a pain. Nobody say a word about GIMP.

I'm sure with a startup script i could be done but i couldn't figure out how to make nvclock remember my settings. $ nvclock -f -F 10 every boot isn't fun. A Rivatuner for linux would have been nice.

Found out the "Linux doesn't crash" or "linux doesn't need reboots" claims i've read do not ring true now. I've had too many knotify boxes appear (at least 3 a day).

lack of wireless support (followed the steps in the readme for my ralink ra61 pcmcia card. Would not go past the $make install command).

Xilinx 7.01 gave up on its install halfway through every time with no warning or reason. I suppose i could have checked the system log but i realise that now.

Americas Army would not configure my widescreen 17inch display correctly. It's easy to do in windows but for some reason i couldn't find any webhelp on it (it wouldn't stretch the window or go up to 1440x900. Just 1280x854 instead). Plus, if you were running Rhythmbox in the background there was no sound in AA.

Disappointing quality with Battlefield2 in wine. Lack of Punkbuster compatibilty is extremely annoying. Only reason i use BF2 is for multiplayer.

Slow boot. Almost 1minute after the initial Bios stuff. Almost half that with XP (although XP isn't ready for at least 10seconds more once logged in). Even quicker no its on SATA ~20secs.

Grub refused to detect my XP partition. I believe this is due to it being on a SATA drive.



Positives - Low on resources (a moot point on my computer), clean desktop theme, haven't noticed any noticeable speed increase overall but Firefox is almost instant in Ubuntu.

Xsane worked with my Nikon LS-50 straight off. Shame it spitted out errors every time i tried to scan (preview worked). Wouldn't work with my Epson 4180 straight off which i found surprising.

Rhythmbox is a good bit of software shame about the sound issues i had.

The package manger is a great improvement compared to when i used Slackware. I feel too much is still in tarballs but thats down to the developers.

Support forums is great despite only getting 1 of my few posted problems solved.

Not having to unmount a CD/DVD before it can eject. I was over the moon when i discovered that!

Free (although my time isn't)



Conclusion
As you can see i'm a power user and Linux has nothing that windows doesn't for me. I'm able to configure my XP Pro to a reasonable stability (i've had it running constantly for up to a fortnight before with few problems) and can easily figure out what's wrong (ctrl+alt+del is something i missed but i'm sre there is an equivalent in Linux).

Looking back on it all it was a learning experience but time wasted as i realised all things in linux is easily available on windows with other Open-Source software. To be honest, it was wasted and stressful time and a great let-down. I was really expecting great things and was most definetly in a positive frame of mood

I'll come back for a re-evaluation in 6months or when foobar2000;gordian knot; photoshop; Modelsim; Multisim; Utorrent (it rules!); Nero Recode (ive tried ffmpeg and transcode but was unimpressed with the quality, audio sync and the lack of a GUI); and Solidworks is ported to linux. Well, at least one can dream!

Before anyone flames me for saying that i should use better equipment or stop messing about with my install. copper Zalman cooled Sempron 3100+ oc'd to 2.1GHz, 2GB of RAM, nVidia 6800GT oc'd by flashing its BIOS to 420/1100MHz 1.4V, 720GB of HDD on Sata and Pata. Whenever something messed up on install (mainly compiz and beryl) i did a reinstall of Ubuntu. Also, i'm sure many of these problems can be resolved but i've spent a month and countless reinstalls and updates of Ubuntu Edgy to get where i am now.

In addition, i'm not a complete muppet. I'm at the end of my Masters Electronic Engineering course and have to deal with many different programming languages (Java, C++, VHDL, Matlab (my sworn enemy)). Also, i'm not a Windows fanboy. I've been questioned about my enthusiasms towards linux by friends and, of course, get looked down upon by the solitary mac user in my course. I don't like the technology stealing Gates or the greedy Jobs (although i do like the idea of having a MAC).


For me, i feel Ubuntu is perfect for the casual PC user as long as they were not used to high-end software beforehand. Hell, i'd recommend Xubuntu to my family as it's fine from the box (in the main) despite my failure in getting it to run fully on my Thinkpad 570e. If Ubuntu got into PC/laptops using proven hardware into sleek designs i'd be genuinely interested.


Sorry for the lengthy post but i thought i'd post my findings for future reference. Plus, if you know the solution to any of the above issues i'd love to hear as i still want to switch from windows (if i don't switch to Mac OsX86 beforehand)

Thanks for your time and thanks canonical for huge improvements!

EDIT : Found out my CPU wasn't oc'd

[cborga1985]

Well, I kind of think it's a good idea. The developers might come across this thread and see something they can do to fix whatever a person's reason for leaving was. Ubuntu wasn't my first distro but once I installed it. There was no turning back for me. I used SuSE off and on for about 1 1/2 years. Then Fedora for about a 3 months and then Ubuntu which I still use as my main os. I keep around a Windows 2000 install just for games. Cedega won't run everything quite right so it's easier to just use that. Anything besides gaming, VMware is simple enough to use if you absolutely have to use a Windows program that won't run in Wine. My personal opinion is that Ubuntu is way better than Windows but to each is own.

[Michaelt74]

Thanks for the comments.

Like most new users, I think your expectations were not met due to lack of research into Ubuntu beforehand.

1)Beryl is in beta, it should only be used by experienced users or users who are willing to live with instability. If you're not, don't use it. I'm not and until Beryl is stable I won't use it.

2) Sound and video are issues for some computers due to the manufacturers not releasing Linux drivers.

3) The same applies for DVD ripping and printer issues for new printers. It takes a while for Linux developers, who release products for free, including the source code, to compile solutions.

4) Wireless is a known issue with Linux, once again due to manufacturers not supporting Linux.

5) Software, I use Nikon Capture and there isn't a Linux version available, I accept that. It's not the fault of Linux. Contact the software manufacturers and request that they support Linux.

6) Games are another known issue, gaming performance in Linux is not at the same level as it is in Windows. Some emulators run Windows games well, others don't. If manufacturers released games for Linux it would be great, but they don't.

Given time, most users find solutions to their problems, I certainly have. I dual boot with XP so I can run Nikon Capture.

You could have saved yourself a lot of time and frustration by looking into these things before you tried Ubuntu and you may have come to the conclusion that Ubuntu didn't suit your needs.

I changed to Ubuntu because I have a problem with MS and their policies. My learning curve has been steep and not without frustration, but I'm glad I made the switch. Open source is much more affordable and reliable. Vista is only the beginning of the Microsoft lock down; there is a lot worse to come in the future.

Good luck and maybe you'll be back in the future.

[madcow72]

As Michaelt74 said, many of the problems you listed could be due to the lack of driver support under Linux. My feeling, however, is that you aren't looking to understand whose fault it is, but rather how to get around some of these issues so that Linux will be completely useable by you as a replacement for Windows.

I am also an Engineer and use my computer to do as much as possible for my work. I began my interest in Linux last September and at this point have Windows down to a virtual machine inside Feisty that I access maybe only once per week. Granted, I don't use SolidWorks or any of the Nikon software, (I'm a Canon EOS 20D user), but by keeping Windows around for a few months as a backup when I didn't know how to accomplish everything I wanted to in Ubuntu, I've been able to re-learn how to do almost everything I used to.

Also, remember how new Ubuntu is when compared to Windows, as well as the amount of help Ubuntu gets from peripherals manufacturers also compared to Windows. In my opinion, Ubuntu is doing a truly fantastic job at providing a lightweight Linux distribution that can install on almost any computer. This trend seems to be more than adequately met under Feisty as well, which offers out-of-the-box support for my wireless cards on my laptop and my desktop computers, plays nicely with nvidia cards, and is even now extremely stable. I'm a little concerned that you say you have to restart 3 times a day... My computer almost never asks me to restart, only after a major upgrade of some sort, which may happen once a month under Feisty right now.

I don't want to get chastised by the KDE fans out there, but I've found that the Gnome desktop seems to offer more stability than KDE under Ubuntu, as the official desktop manager choice. You mentioned many "k" programs, so I thought it may be worth mentioning if you're using Kubuntu. (Seriously, nothing against Kubuntu, I used it solely up until ~2 months ago - I just personally find Gnome a little more logical and stable.)

My bottom line is basically that although you may not currently find everything that you're looking for in Ubuntu, I don't think it's a long way off. For example, under Feisty, samba issues, wireless cards, and much of the earlier hardware recognition problems seem to be a thing of the past. I think it's also worth remembering the amount of free and still very powerful software available in Linux, kept in safe repositories, the almost complete lack of viruses or adware, etc. I appreciate your views and frustrations, but keep watching how fast Ubuntu is growing, and how more and more limited you find yourself in the MS World.

Last but not least, it's unfortunate, but we all know that Linux doesn't do well with gaming (due to the lack of support.) So, if you want to play games, I just wouldn't expect wine to be effective or easily configurable. You should probably dual boot for that.

That's all. Probably wrote too much, and didn't really organize my thoughts, but I wanted to respond. Good luck!

[eentonig]

Nobody forces you to use Linux. Seems like you'll be a lot happier using windows.

[Chrisj303]

If your into :
Music production
VJ'ing
Video editing
Games

...to any level then your pretty much s*** out of luck with Linux. There are many,many people out there (myself included) that would LOVE to use Ubuntu as a primary OS. But due to a serious lack of proper commercial software support and patchy hardware support this remains impossible.

Commercial software support will not be here until there is a much bigger user-base, the user base will not increase until ubuntu is idiot-proof.
It's BS taking the **** out of people that have tried ubuntu and decided it's no-good for them, because to be honest, if ubuntu (as a primary OS) allows you to do everything you need, and you can use it properly - then you ARE in the minority.Your lucky.

chrisj303

[regomodo]

Cheers for your replies. You all appear to think i hate Ubuntu. Far from it. Out of the dozens of distros i've tried Ubuntu (ok, Xubuntu) is the best. It's not far from being totally sorted (for todays hardware, i know there will be a delay between the latest and greatest kit to support in Linux).

Many of the issues i mentioned i knew a passing knowledge before trying Ubuntu 6months ago when i spent a month with Slack and a few weeks with Ark. Mainly wireless for example. I hoped that some things would have been sorted. On the whole things have been sorted.

I understand that many drivers are not available due to manufacturers not helping and knew that in advance. I'm not using fancy hardware. Most of it has been around for almost 2 years now.

I didn't say my computer didn't have to restart 3 times a day. Just received Knotifys when a program failed. Mainly Firefox and Ktorrent. I did have to restart everytime i tried to use Amarok

I knew Beryl was Beta so i accepted it if it didn't work. I followed the Ubuntu Edgy guide here. Didn't work so i didn't use it.

DVD ripping was a major issue for me. I had been recommended DVD:rip but was underwhelmed by it. Gordian Knot and DVD Decrytper is freeware i might mention Michaelt74

@Eentonig. Thanks for the constructive comment. I forced myself to use Linux because i don't want to stay with windows. Unfortunately too much software i use is Windows only and won't work through crossover or wine.


As i said, i'll be back in 6months or when my wishlist for ported windows software is a reality (yeah right). In the mean time i'll leave my 10G Ubuntu partition where it is.

Thanks all


EDIT: wiped my Edgy partition with Xubuntu Fiesty. It detected my XP install straight away for Grub. Unfortunately Error messgaes spit out when i try to select my XP install in Grub. Again, got the monitor resolution wrong (edited xorg easily) and nvidia drivers not done correctly (don't like the fan spinning its guts out). Sorted that out with apt-get install nvidia-glx. Unfortunately i cannot install any packages at all. get "failed to fetch http://......". Ctrl+Alt+Backspace doesn't reload the x server

Meh, i totally give up and cannot be arsed at all anymore i'm going to wipe that partition. At least install takes ~15minutes (YES, I KNOW IT'S BETA)

[M$LOL]

@ chrisj303:
The only one of those that Ubuntu has a problem with is games, and that's improving all the time. If you have patience with Ubuntu and figure out how to use it and get it to do what you want, then you will find that it is 100% better than Windows for virtually everything.

[LaRoza]

I do not quite understand this obsession with games. I like video games, but they are just that games. If you want a video games consol, buy one. Vista is heavily designed to run video games.

If you want a computer for productivity and functionality, get Ubuntu or another Linux distro.

Personally, I think games get too much attention. I play them when they are around but I do not lament when they are gone. I did beat Halo on Legendary, but I do not consider that anymore important than winning minesweeper in less than 5 seconds. Both are trivial, just with different graphics.

[M$LOL]

I know, but it's annoying when you only want to play one or two for an hour or so because you remember how fun they were. Anyway, games are part of the reason M$ has such a huge monopoly right now.

[qamelian]

If your into :
Music production
VJ'ing
Video editing
Games

...to any level then your pretty much s*** out of luck with Linux. There are many,many people out there (myself included) that would LOVE to use Ubuntu as a primary OS. But due to a serious lack of proper commercial software support and patchy hardware support this remains impossible.

Commercial software support will not be here until there is a much bigger user-base, the user base will not increase until ubuntu is idiot-proof.
It's BS taking the **** out of people that have tried ubuntu and decided it's no-good for them, because to be honest, if ubuntu (as a primary OS) allows you to do everything you need, and you can use it properly - then you ARE in the minority.Your lucky.

chrisj303
The only valid criticism in your list is games. The other items are things I have done regularly in Linux for a couple of years now.

[M$LOL]

^^^ Exactly, plus there are a lot of things that Linux can do that Windows can't, or can do better than Windows.

[fdrake]

Sorry guys and gals, I'm gave it a shot and I;m going to have to say good bye to Linux and Ubuntu. Without wireless support and an easy way to install programs, this is something that I'm not going to get. I'm a windows user and that's all there is to it.

I tried, but it just isn't going to work.

i am glad you gave it a try. it takes time but i am pretty sure you'll came back to stay like we all here did.

[3rdalbum]

What I would suggest is turning off the overclocking. The Linux kernel should not crash unless you are using a buggy binary-only graphics driver (ATI), and even then rarely. KDE programs do crash sometimes, unfortunately, but you really shouldn't be getting the problems you are.

Instead of DVD:rip, try Acidrip. It's an easier program to use. The only advantage of DVD:Rip is that it can rip just the audio of a DVD, which is perfect for making audio CDs.

I'd also suggest trying something like Fedora. Gnome seems to have fewer hardware compatibility troubles than KDE, and Fedora uses a completely different base to Ubuntu. Linux isn't Linux - different distributions might work better for some people.

[luvdemheels]

I've noticed some that say they do video editing with ubuntu..If so what do you install from synaptic for this to happen? Can you capture video also?? I would love to see this work with ubuntu.

[Amt0571]

Ubuntu (and kubuntu) both have a huge problem. In every Ubuntu release there are a lot of "minor" bugs which end up making the system quite unsatisfactory to use.

I currently have a Kubuntu Edgy computer which has the following issues:
- It locks up at boot when have a PCI WiFi card inserted (rt 61).
- The same rt61 card is not detected correctly by default, and installing its drivers is a mess.
- My X800XT keeps getting the mesa issue after every system update.
- apt-index-watcher uses around 25% of the CPU constantly forcing me to disable it at every boot.
- The folder sharing pane is completely corrupted.
- KMail keeps forgetting the mail password.
and I could go on and on...

The curious thing is that I have Debian Etch on the same computer and everything is ok. It took me a while to configure it, but it works perfectly after the configuration process.

I'm going to try Feisty, but I fear I will end up in my Debian at the end... Debian works, Ubuntu doesn't, which is a shame, but it's real.

I have also tried Ubuntu with gnome, and I ended up with a lot of similar issues.

The biggest problem, however is that after 6 months, most of the issues are still there. I hope Ubuntu developers decide to fix this, otherway I may just end up giving opportunities to Ubuntu, and switching to another distro for good.

[aysiu]

I've put this in the "Bye, Ubuntu" thread. Sorry things didn't work out for you.

[regomodo]

Well, i checked my BIOS (was trying to turn off network boot detection) and found out that my CPU wasn't overclocked. Just running at the standard 1.8GHz. Can't say it has anything to do with overclocking now.

I doubt it could be due to an overclocked GPU as that wold just give me a funny display (which it does to a very certain block shade of grey (wavy lines through it).

I'll have a look at Fedora once i've finished my FPGA project.

[Chrisj303]

The only valid criticism in your list is games. The other items are things I have done regularly in Linux for a couple of years now.

Name a proper VJ app on linux?,, and while your at it name a (Linux) music production package that comes anywhere near Ableton live 6, Apple Logic Pro, Pro-Tools, Peak Pro etc..etc

I've played around with dynabolic, and although it's *alright* it's nowhere near the quality of production packages found elsewhere.

chrisj303

[M$LOL]

I'm sure you could find one if you looked, I might do that tomorrow, and even if not, there's always Wine.

[regomodo]

Why the hell was i not referred to Virtualbox?!!?

Think i shall be returning soon, this time on Xubuntu

EDIT : notice its supported for Ubuntu only.

[Chrisj303]

I'm sure you could find one if you looked, I might do that tomorrow, and even if not, there's always Wine.

Ha, good luck! - And why would i want to use wine, when i could boot nativley into windows - or better yet OSX??

chrisj303

[3rdalbum]

Why the hell was i not referred to Virtualbox?!!?

Think i shall be returning soon, this time on Xubuntu

EDIT : notice its supported for Ubuntu only.

Xubuntu is Ubuntu. Virtualbox will work.

[M$LOL]

Ha, good luck! - And why would i want to use wine, when i could boot nativley into windows - or better yet OSX??

chrisj303

Umm, you seem to be missing the point, that Ubuntu is BETTER than Windoze and OSX. Wine is for the rare occasion when you can't find a native Ubuntu app and need a Win32 one for some reason. With Ubuntu + Wine you can have the best of both worlds (Windows and linux) while running a decent OS.

[Marc_UK]

Easy way to install programs? A retard could it!

Click applications, then add/remove.

[Tridion2000]

Easy way to install programs? A retard could it!

Click applications, then add/remove.

LOL, the only thing I would say against that is that some of the stuff in the add/remove applications is very old versions.

I nearly gave up on Linux but the thought of paying for another bloatware version of Windows kept me at it. It has already been a headache to install, more so to configure and even more to install latest version of stuff not in the repository.

I can see why many would give up. I don't think Linux will ever convert the Windows "one click and installed" community. IMHO. Most of them wouldn't dream of touching a command line. Linux is for geeks and geeks only myself included, just ;)

[M$LOL]

I'm not a geek and I use linux.

[Marc_UK]

LOL, the only thing I would say against that is that some of the stuff in the add/remove applications is very old versions.

I nearly gave up on Linux but the thought of paying for another bloatware version of Windows kept me at it. It has already been a headache to install, more so to configure and even more to install latest version of stuff not in the repository.

I can see why many would give up. I don't think Linux will ever convert the Windows "one click and installed" community. IMHO. Most of them wouldn't dream of touching a command line. Linux is for geeks and geeks only myself included, just ;)

Debian packages are pretty easy to use.

THey are "one click".

[Lucifiel]

Yes, Debian packages are one-click. However, many software packages are still in .tar.gz Furthermore, the required libraries are not always specified until you start to compile/install the software. True, the error messages can be useful but when you've to keep downloading libraries for almost every software you install via command line, it can get absolutely tiring.

Until the day when more packages are released as .deb and when various softwares pay more attention to GUI and when documentation(read: how to install software, what libraries or packages are required, etc.) is made available via more widespread formats, it will be very difficult for plenty of Windows users to justify a near full-time switch to Linux.

Still, the amount of effort the developers have put in, into ensuring a huge repository base(Read: Add/Remove or Synaptic Package Manager) has to be commended.

[wyth]

I have to ask, how did such a ridiculous original post spawn 45 pages of response? The original post was vague, no specifics on what was tried (or even known/understood by the user), and for all we know, was just a regular linux basher/windows fan posting just to have something more out there on the web that says "linux sucks." I found this looking for information on high CPU usage.

Smells like fud lite; how'd it generate such a response? *grumbles... I can barely get two responses to my issues, after continual bumps, and this twerp gets 45 pages? sheesh...*

[Chrisj303]

Umm, you seem to be missing the point, that Ubuntu is BETTER than Windoze and OSX. Wine is for the rare occasion when you can't find a native Ubuntu app and need a Win32 one for some reason. With Ubuntu + Wine you can have the best of both worlds (Windows and linux) while running a decent OS.

Ubuntu better than OSX? - thats a pretty bold statement, give a linux box to anybody seriously involved in the scenes i mentioned (Music production,Video editing, Vj'ing and games) for a couple of days, my bet is that they'd throw it back at you!

Have you ever tried running Ableton live 6, Arkaos etc through Wine? - 'cos i have and it don't work...and if you did manage to bodge it together you'd be screwed because the REWIRE2 protocol wouldn't be there.

Best of both worlds? - well for me Tripleboot - until ubuntu has decent software i can't use it for anything but internet and word processing. - how is that any better than OSX?

Thats what bugs me about the other OS forum - it's full of people taking pot-shots at other operating systems, while playing blind to the massive holes their own choice has. Linux has a LONG,LONG,LONG way to go before it has any chance at making a dent in the userbase, and for a variety of reasons.

*Ps - I use all three major OS' every day (OSX/UBUNTU/XP) - even though XP is my least favourite, it allows me to do a hell of a lot more than ubuntu.

chrisj303

[Chrisj303]

Until the day when more packages are released as .deb and when various softwares pay more attention to GUI and when documentation(read: how to install software, what libraries or packages are required, etc.) is made available via more widespread formats, it will be very difficult for plenty of Windows users to justify a near full-time switch to Linux.

Still, the amount of effort the developers have put in, into ensuring a huge repository base(Read: Add/Remove or Synaptic Package Manager) has to be commended.


Amen.

[ThinkBuntu]

I said bye to Ubuntu...and Hi to MEPIS. Everything works immediately, and I mean everything. The only machine I've had with this sort of recognition is my Mac OS X - running Macbook, and it's more impressive because MEPIS is built for a far greater variety of machines.

[M$LOL]

Ubuntu better than OSX? - thats a pretty bold statement, give a linux box to anybody seriously involved in the scenes i mentioned (Music production,Video editing, Vj'ing and games) for a couple of days, my bet is that they'd throw it back at you!

Have you ever tried running Ableton live 6, Arkaos etc through Wine? - 'cos i have and it don't work...and if you did manage to bodge it together you'd be screwed because the REWIRE2 protocol wouldn't be there.

Best of both worlds? - well for me Tripleboot - until ubuntu has decent software i can't use it for anything but internet and word processing. - how is that any better than OSX?

Thats what bugs me about the other OS forum - it's full of people taking pot-shots at other operating systems, while playing blind to the massive holes their own choice has. Linux has a LONG,LONG,LONG way to go before it has any chance at making a dent in the userbase, and for a variety of reasons.

*Ps - I use all three major OS' every day (OSX/UBUNTU/XP) - even though XP is my least favourite, it allows me to do a hell of a lot more than ubuntu.

chrisj303
You're talking about four very specific areas. I'm saying that Linux is better than OSX overall. IMO, Linux is technically superior to OSX.

If you need those apps, look for a replacement that will work, and if that fails, use a VM.

Ubuntu does have good software, in many cases better software, and even if you can't find any Linux apps that will work for you, you can always use Wine or a VM.

Linux does have a long way to go before it dents the userbase, you're right, but that's not because it isn't a good OS, it's because M$ has a huge stranglehold on the market, and it would be virtually impossible to try and challenge that, unless some major corporations started ditching Windows entirely in favour of Linux.

I admit, people here (including myself) will take potshots at other OSs (specifically Windows), but see the bashing thread for our reasons. I admit Linux does have some holes as you said, but Windows has infinitely more.

If XP allows you to do more than Ubuntu, take a step back and ask yourself why. I can guarantee you that you can get your Ubuntu box to do more than it is currently doing. Post on the forums about it. Look for solutions. I ditched Windows 2000 in favour of 64 bit Edgy, I am able to do three times as much, more effectively and more efficiently than I ever was before. Open your mind to it, and there is nothing stopping you from succeeding with Ubuntu.

[aysiu]

I guess it bears repeating: the OS that is "best" is the one that best suits your needs. There is no operating system that is the best for everyone. Mac OS X is the "best" for my wife. And Ubuntu is the "best" for me.

[regomodo]

It's because all postings where people have given up with Ubuntu are moved to.

I don't feel it's fair. It just seems to hide negative testimonials. I put my sob story in testimonials and it got moved to here. Go figure?

[aysiu]

negative testimonial is an oxymoron.

And this thread isn't hidden. It's just consolidated.

[regomodo]

haha. Know you point that out i'm reminded how bad my english is. I'm from the deep Westcountry and i'm known to speak poor grammar

[GSF1200S]

Maybe Linux isn't something for you... that's no problem. I took myself quite a while before I could understand the big. I realized I could spend hours, days and even months dealing with one problem after the other, posting my *** of in return to work with an OS I didn't understand wasn't going to work. So I dove into bookstores and bought myself some books. So graduatelly within months I started to understand the history, the spirit and the use of Linux. It gave me that right push and after that all went like a knive through butter.

Maybe such an approach could be inspiring or useful for yourself. You don't have to be running Linux to learn about it and understand it. But once you do them both, you can switch back if you like.

Very well put.

I think the best way for new users to transition from Windows to Linux is the dual boot option, like I took. Now, I dual boot because Im a gamer, but it helped me stay on track with Linux. Honestly, ever since I was a teenager, I dreamed about using Linux. I know that sounds lame, but I always fealt so limited by Windows, and I didnt like it.

Dual booting is good because it inspires confidence. The new user always feels like he can 'retreat' back to windows if he needs all the functions back, or if he needs to take a break. Its there in case he makes a mistake, so a simple reboot and he can be on windows using the net to figure out how to fix his problem. He doesnt have to worry about downing his whole computer (once he gets past the install, grub, etc.). Linux is now his mountain to climb. Some people see the gold at the top of the mountain and therefore decide to climb, no matter how treacherous. Others just see the mountain, and climb it because its a challenge. I was a mix of both..

Let me give you guys a noobs perspective (I guess I still am, but im comfortable with Linux now) When I first installed Ubuntu, it had no real 'functioning purpose.' I fealt lost- I didnt know how to change the interface. I didnt know the basis of how nautilus was set up. The terminal window scared me (I wanted to use it, but I didnt know how). I couldnt install tar.gz, I didnt understand what the package manager was all about, I didnt know what .deb were, and I couldnt figure out what all the file extensions pointed to. For ex, in windows when browsing a folder, if I see a .exe file, I know its an executable of some kind. When I saw .ogg in linux, I was lost.

When I ran into a brick wall, I posted here. When I crashed X for the first time, I simply booted windows where this forum responded with:

sudo dpkg-reconfigure -phigh xserver-xorg

Had I of had solely linux on this computer, a simple thing such as the X window crashing would have been catastrophic. Dual booting made it easy...

You need windows to fall back on while youre learning. Now, I rarely even use windows.. linux is just so much better, easier to understand (its layed out with a little more common sense ie. /home), and so much damn fun!!

[M$LOL]

I tried that a while back, but I realized that I was using Windows all the time, because I knew how to use that way more effectively than Ubuntu. You're right though, it can be intimidating when everything is different, so it probably would help new users to dual boot and learn at their own pace.

[Marc_UK]

Yes, Debian packages are one-click. However, many software packages are still in .tar.gz Furthermore, the required libraries are not always specified until you start to compile/install the software. True, the error messages can be useful but when you've to keep downloading libraries for almost every software you install via command line, it can get absolutely tiring.

Until the day when more packages are released as .deb and when various softwares pay more attention to GUI and when documentation(read: how to install software, what libraries or packages are required, etc.) is made available via more widespread formats, it will be very difficult for plenty of Windows users to justify a near full-time switch to Linux.

Still, the amount of effort the developers have put in, into ensuring a huge repository base(Read: Add/Remove or Synaptic Package Manager) has to be commended.

Ah well, most of the things you need already come with Ubuntu and most of the other things you need you can use te add/remove anyway.

[battleshipterry]

Sorry u had 2 go dogg if you would have give as many hrs to Ubuntu as you killed with windows you would be a Ubuntu Master. buy buy grasshopper sorry you failed.

[carusoswi]

I wouldn't give the OP such a hard time. I am as patient as most, very persistent, and I am still having trouble getting into Ubuntu.

I need some windows aps, so have been trying to get a VM machine going before I toss my dual boot.

The forum is vey helpful, but, still, as is the case with any OS, users familiar with the system don't always realize that we newcomers need very basic instructions from the start, even if certain steps seem redundant to the "teacher."

I have not given up on Ubuntu, but I haven't been able to give up on WinXPPro yet, either.

Caruso

[nenyalorien]

"i can't live with you anymore, M$. you nag me all the time, you keep leaving me hanging when you crash, and worse, you let in strangers to sleep with your kernel. you have just been totally unfaithful and you keep breaking my heart. i'm sorry, i'm sorry, i had some fun times with you, but they aren't enough for me to keep working on our relationship anymore. i'm just so tired. so tired. so tired. i've tasted the freedom in the arms of my lovers Ubuntu and OS X, and by far, i feel so much more appreciated, loved and pampered. so i guess this means goodbye." *turning on my heels, tossing my hair, and slinking off to slide either arm into OS X and Ubuntu's*-me on finally wrenching away from the M$ habit.

the day i had to return my Ubuntu hard drive to FAT32 because my Win drive was getting too full, i was so sad. it felt like i was leaving a perfectly good boyfriend for a complete jerk. but i knew i would be reunited with my Ubuntu. and now, i'm back in it! oh thank you M$, for making the crappiest OS's, it just simplified my decision-making!

[Chrisj303]

I'm one step away from ditching Linux, i've setup a triple boot on my macbook and i am sick to death of the constant battle to get even basic functionality of features i normally take for granted.

My last hope was feisty, but i've just learned that the latest beta broke almost everything that previous beta had fixed.
If the feisty final is released in this broken state, i'm throwing in the towel - no OS is worth this much hassle.

chrisj303

[GSF1200S]

I'm one step away from ditching Linux, i've setup a triple boot on my macbook and i am sick to death of the constant battle to get even basic functionality of features i normally take for granted.

My last hope was feisty, but i've just learned that the latest beta broke almost everything that previous beta had fixed.
If the feisty final is released in this broken state, i'm throwing in the towel - no OS is worth this much hassle.

chrisj303

I think its more a question of hardware and support. I just got this laptop, and im having no problems with compatibility. Some things were amiss in Edgy, like my wireless. But since I upgraded to Feisty, Ive had no problems at all with anything on my computer. All of my special keys work, my wireless works, my video card works, and every function like sleep and suspend work. I even have Beyrl when I feel like using it.

Rather than throw in the towel, maybe just keep Linux in mind the next time you get a box. Get some hardware that is Linux friendly. After all, the attitude of "screw it, its too hard" is exactly what all the $ OS's want you to think because it makes them money. Ubuntu or Linux doesnt really suffer from not trying to be compatible, but when the corporate world wont support it because "more people have mac and windows, so we make more money," what can Linux do...

Im not going to lie.. I didnt buy this laptop with Linux in mind. I just happened to get lucky by getting an Atheros wireless card, an NVIDIA video card, an Intel processor, and the rest of it that works. My only concern is the Phoenix bios, but it hasnt given me any trouble yet. Maybe its because im booting to Grub and selecting Linux from there. I might have had problems if I had done a sole install of Ubuntu. Of course, I could be wrong.. I dont know a whole lot about BIOS and such..

Good luck and I hope Feisty bears good news..

[Chrisj303]

Rather than throw in the towel, maybe just keep Linux in mind the next time you get a box. Get some hardware that is Linux friendly. After all, the attitude of "screw it, its too hard" is exactly what all the $ OS's want you to think because it makes them money. Ubuntu or Linux doesnt really suffer from not trying to be compatible, but when the corporate world wont support it because "more people have mac and windows, so we make more money," what can Linux do...


Err.., i running ubuntu on a mac (i tripleboot osx/ubuntu/xp), and i will always buy mac's - so i am at the mercy of ubuntu, regarding hardware support.

303

[nenyalorien]

ChrisJ303, i read somewhere that Apple hard-wires their OS's into their machines. the thing is, i think they optimized the macbooks only too well with OS X. and since they've let Microsoft in on their company now, i think that's the reason why you're not having problems with Windows. if you look at the BootCamp documentation, it says there, clearly that it was intended for dual-booting with Windows. i don't think that it's Ubuntu's fault at all. it's more of a business move on Apple's part. period.

Until they choose to open support for Open Source software on their hardware, then you better stick to dual-booting only OS X and Win. If you gotta have an Ubuntu box, you better try System76 (http://www.system76.com/). the Darter really looks good. I'm salivating over it, in fact. :p

i wish you well in your journey with Open Source. :D

[ayllu]

Is very difficult to beginner users to learn Linux but its take time but inst impossible, and in the way to install some specific software is little difficult specially wen you have to compile, but anyway good lock whit your windows and remember take care about virus.

[u.b.u.n.t.u]

I tested 6.06 and had it for a month before the annoyances became too much and I switched back to XP.

I tried 7.04 only to encounter critical graphics problems, screen resolution, color depth, refresh rate all messed up. Then when I get a working system by learning how to manually edit an xorg.conf file - I install the 3d enabling drivers from Nvidia and the whole thing falls over like a deck of cards - 800x600 @ 50Hz on a 19" CRT. No way to resolve this.

I have no sound at all for my audigy, and all attempts to install drivers and get it going are a failure.

I do not have permission to write to my NTFS drive.

Ubuntu sends me a plague of "you do not have permission".

There is simply NO WAY Ubuntu is ready. It is even worse than last year. I at least had 3d graphics and audio working but I don't even have that this time.

All the reports, all the wonderful things said about Ubuntu only refers to some examples. Where the hardware is acceptable and the user knows how to get around the "you do not have permission" spam.

I want to leave XP but Ubuntu just isn't ready and I am thinking it will be at least another year, but probably 3 or maybe 5 years before it can meet basic functionality.

Fiesty Fawn is worse than Dapper Drake and that wasn't good enough to replace XP.

Ubuntu has a LONG way to go and all the reviews don't mean anything if one doesn't have the same positive experience.

Ubuntu is at best a curiosity at this stage - if it doesn't work and XP does, there is no choice. One has to remain with XP.

At this stage it will be interesting to see which operating system is useable first - Ubuntu or Vista.

Only by trying 7.04 myself do I appreciate how shocking it really is. Too many things simply just don't work and one needs a lot of knowhow, command line experience, to do even the most simple of things like edit files and move files to a NTFS drive.

I wish Ubuntu worked, but it doesn't. As soon as it does, as soon as it achieves a minimum standard, I will gladly look at it again.

Time to Forget Fiesty Fawn - it will be interesting how Gutsy Gibbon turns out. Better I hope, though that isn't too difficult seeing what a Failure Fiesty Fawn is.

[Chrisj303]

ChrisJ303, i read somewhere that Apple hard-wires their OS's into their machines. the thing is, i think they optimized the macbooks only too well with OS X. and since they've let Microsoft in on their company now, i think that's the reason why you're not having problems with Windows. if you look at the BootCamp documentation, it says there, clearly that it was intended for dual-booting with Windows. i don't think that it's Ubuntu's fault at all. it's more of a business move on Apple's part. period.


What sre you talking about? -Bootcamp is just a set of drivers to get the macbooks hardware working properly with windows.

System 76? - no thankyou, their ugly and cost more than a macbook.

[xpod]

Tough decisions in life No8080

Deciding wether to put your post in the "bye Ubuntu" thread or in the "desktop readiness" thread:-k

[Kure]

To make this thread more positive - I said a definite good bye to Ubuntu... to switch to Debian unstable - interestingly, only positive things prevailed, KDE is polished as it is in Kubuntu (maybe more) and it is free of ugly hacks done in Ubuntu to make it more "user friendly"... Bye.

[Chayak]

Well you can at least give them props as they were at least willing to try something new. It's not for everyone. I still have windows machines and servers myself.

[jrib]

... and it is free of ugly hacks done in Ubuntu to make it more "user friendly"... Bye.

I'm curious, what "ugly hacks" do you mean exactly?

[ThinkBuntu]

I'm curious, what "ugly hacks" do you mean exactly?
Maybe he means the Human theme :^)

[B. Gates]

BTW - Before I begin, I should probably mention that I'm not actually Bill Gates (holy s**t, what a surprise!). I went by the name "FoolsGold", which some of you might remember. B. Gates is a joke account I normally use just for amusement, but since I sabotaged the FG account to avoid posting again with it, I only have this one. So now you know. :)

----------

As of Sunday, I also left Ubuntu. I really didn't want to, but I did. I shall explain why (long read, sorry)


In short, it was because of a lack of applications (good, quality apps), coupled with a re-evaluation of the purpose of an operating system. It finally dawned on me that by moving entirely to Linux, I was losing my ability to run my favorite applications (eg. Photoshop, assorted games, etc) for what? Because Linux is free? Because its ideology is better? Someone once said, "If you're really obsessive about the ideology and philosophy of a computer operating system, then you have issues with your own personal stability." He's got a point; an operating system is there to RUN APPLICATIONS. That's it. What good is running a system where you can say "la la la, I'm running in the fields of sunshine and smelling the nectar of freeness", when the software you use for work and/or play is either non-existent or sub-standard?

Here's a recent example. I was trying to burn a movie onto a DVD. I wanted it simple - you put the DVD in the player, the movie starts automatically and is all good. Should be fairly straightforward right? It was at first; installed tovid, ran the Python GUI, let it do its thing. When I examined the results afterwards, there was a noticeable desynchronization between the audio and video of nearly a second, which wasn't present in the source. How the hell did this happen? I had to do some more reading and use 'postproc' to modify the audio through trial and error, which wasted a fair amount of time. In comparison, using NeroVision in Windows, just select the file, it will convert the thing flawlessly without fail every time. Less options are necessary, it just... works. I really don't need this BS just to burn a DVD movie properly.

Now, software is free in Linux, right? Sure... but there are plenty of cases where commercial software in Windows is much slicker and better put together than Linux alternatives. But hey, it's free right? Well, does it really matter in the home whether it's free or not? People pirate software left, right and center because home users don't get punished. I love free software, but a lot of software is of a higher build when the developers are motivated by money, as well as a desire to get the job done. So, I don't feel bad about using pirated software because ultimately, the quality of said software is still higher. Is it morally wrong? Maybe. I don't pirate everything, but I sure as hell won't pay as much as Adobe is asking for PS3, and I'm not the only one. It kicks GIMP's *** so hard it's not funny.

Linux is very often an issue about making compromises - compromises with software and hardware. If you use Linux, you are potentially compromising on functionality and support on both these fronts in favor of some feel-good outcome that makes you warm and fuzzy inside. It's a fricking operating system, nothing more. Find a more worthwhile cause if you want to feel good about yourself; took me a while before I woke up to the truth. Now, props to you if you can manage it, but I LIKE all the software available on Windows. I can't afford all of it, but no-one's going after me, and I'm not running a business. If I was making a profit out of using said software, then sure I'd buy it. I also buy plenty of games because it's my favorite pastime, so no worries there.

Viruses? I haven't had a virus/trojan for bloody ages, because I'm not stupid. Running a resident virus checker is mandatory though, but good web habits are also important. I'm behind a hardware firewall so that filters out a ton of crap, and of course all the security updates are there. Spyware? Same diff - I'm experienced enough with computers to know what has spyware and what doesn't, and I also know where and how to find out. Potential security flaws are an issue of course, but I still like my abundant software/hardware.

The obsession with freeness is a good thing - open formats are good, free/cheap software that does the job is good. I can hardly complain about that. However, it's not enough for me. An OS runs software, the software I want to use. I thought I could stay away from Windows, but I'm not going to cut off a huge portion of available software just for some ideology. The community? It's nice, but the zealots who suggest you convert to Ogg and buy a portable music player which supports Ogg, to replace the one you already own which doesn't, ruin things. Once I booted back into Windows and started sticking the software I used to use, I honestly wondered why I bothered. I gained a new perspective into a different side of the computing industry, I learnt new skills, etc; all useful things, but as a system I wanted to use solely for the long term? God no. Not yet. Not until a sizable portion of the WORLD uses it too, at which point the software/hardware issue would be fairly non-existant I hope.

So, that's that I suppose. Now if you'll excuse me, I've got to update AVG. :KS

[BLTicklemonster]

At least this isn't a 'BUY UBUNTU" thread.

:)

[karellen]

BTW - Before I begin, I should probably mention that I'm not actually Bill Gates (holy s**t, what a surprise!). I went by the name "FoolsGold", which some of you might remember. B. Gates is a joke account I normally use just for amusement, but since I sabotaged the FG account to avoid posting again with it, I only have this one. So now you know. :)

----------

As of Sunday, I also left Ubuntu. I really didn't want to, but I did. I shall explain why (long read, sorry)


In short, it was because of a lack of applications (good, quality apps), coupled with a re-evaluation of the purpose of an operating system. It finally dawned on me that by moving entirely to Linux, I was losing my ability to run my favorite applications (eg. Photoshop, assorted games, etc) for what? Because Linux is free? Because its ideology is better? Someone once said, "If you're really obsessive about the ideology and philosophy of a computer operating system, then you have issues with your own personal stability." He's got a point; an operating system is there to RUN APPLICATIONS. That's it. What good is running a system where you can say "la la la, I'm running in the fields of sunshine and smelling the nectar of freeness", when the software you use for work and/or play is either non-existent or sub-standard?

Here's a recent example. I was trying to burn a movie onto a DVD. I wanted it simple - you put the DVD in the player, the movie starts automatically and is all good. Should be fairly straightforward right? It was at first; installed tovid, ran the Python GUI, let it do its thing. When I examined the results afterwards, there was a noticeable desynchronization between the audio and video of nearly a second, which wasn't present in the source. How the hell did this happen? I had to do some more reading and use 'postproc' to modify the audio through trial and error, which wasted a fair amount of time. In comparison, using NeroVision in Windows, just select the file, it will convert the thing flawlessly without fail every time. Less options are necessary, it just... works. I really don't need this BS just to burn a DVD movie properly.

Now, software is free in Linux, right? Sure... but there are plenty of cases where commercial software in Windows is much slicker and better put together than Linux alternatives. But hey, it's free right? Well, does it really matter in the home whether it's free or not? People pirate software left, right and center because home users don't get punished. I love free software, but a lot of software is of a higher build when the developers are motivated by money, as well as a desire to get the job done. So, I don't feel bad about using pirated software because ultimately, the quality of said software is still higher. Is it morally wrong? Maybe. I don't pirate everything, but I sure as hell won't pay as much as Adobe is asking for PS3, and I'm not the only one. It kicks GIMP's *** so hard it's not funny.

Linux is very often an issue about making compromises - compromises with software and hardware. If you use Linux, you are potentially compromising on functionality and support on both these fronts in favor of some feel-good outcome that makes you warm and fuzzy inside. It's a fricking operating system, nothing more. Find a more worthwhile cause if you want to feel good about yourself; took me a while before I woke up to the truth. Now, props to you if you can manage it, but I LIKE all the software available on Windows. I can't afford all of it, but no-one's going after me, and I'm not running a business. If I was making a profit out of using said software, then sure I'd buy it. I also buy plenty of games because it's my favorite pastime, so no worries there.

Viruses? I haven't had a virus/trojan for bloody ages, because I'm not stupid. Running a resident virus checker is mandatory though, but good web habits are also important. I'm behind a hardware firewall so that filters out a ton of crap, and of course all the security updates are there. Spyware? Same diff - I'm experienced enough with computers to know what has spyware and what doesn't, and I also know where and how to find out. Potential security flaws are an issue of course, but I still like my abundant software/hardware.

The obsession with freeness is a good thing - open formats are good, free/cheap software that does the job is good. I can hardly complain about that. However, it's not enough for me. An OS runs software, the software I want to use. I thought I could stay away from Windows, but I'm not going to cut off a huge portion of available software just for some ideology. The community? It's nice, but the zealots who suggest you convert to Ogg and buy a portable music player which supports Ogg, to replace the one you already own which doesn't, ruin things. Once I booted back into Windows and started sticking the software I used to use, I honestly wondered why I bothered. I gained a new perspective into a different side of the computing industry, I learnt new skills, etc; all useful things, but as a system I wanted to use solely for the long term? God no. Not yet. Not until a sizable portion of the WORLD uses it too, at which point the software/hardware issue would be fairly non-existant I hope.

So, that's that I suppose. Now if you'll excuse me, I've got to update AVG. :KS

I can understand your complains and I had this thoughts myself many times before. that's why I dual-boot. windows software ecosystem it's damn well established to give up easily at all the benefits...:D

[misfitpierce]

Fare thee well.... Come back once windows blows up :)

[Chayak]

The elitist attitude a lot of people have does fill a psychological need to feel special but it never helps things much. Linux is a tool, it has it's places and if it will do everything you want good for you. To be honest there are things I like and don't like among linux, windows, OS X, solaris, etc. There are windows products that are highly polished. I for one like the new interface in Office 2007. I've yet to find an acceptable replacement for Active Directory for administering large groups of computers and managed desktop control. Linux is free and rapidly getting better and you can't beat the flexibility when it comes to special applications. The downside is it takes time and more time to dig through documentation for configurations. Time cost money in the IT world and the less time I have to spend configuring the better.

[karellen]

The elitist attitude a lot of people have does fill a psychological need to feel special but it never helps things much. Linux is a tool, it has it's places and if it will do everything you want good for you. To be honest there are things I like and don't like among linux, windows, OS X, solaris, etc. There are windows products that are highly polished. I for one like the new interface in Office 2007. I've yet to find an acceptable replacement for Active Directory for administering large groups of computers and managed desktop control. Linux is free and rapidly getting better and you can't beat the flexibility when it comes to special applications. The downside is it takes time and more time to dig through documentation for configurations. Time cost money in the IT world and the less time I have to spend configuring the better.

the elitist attitude annoys me too, even though I think I'm a proficient linux&windows user and computer savvy generally speaking...

[aysiu]

Most of the elitism I've seen is from the "goodbye" threads.

How many threads condemning desktop Linux have started out, "I've been a system administrator and programmer for 20 years..." trying to make it sound as if "I'm so great and know so much about computers. If I can't figure out desktop Linux, no one can!" Well, that's just about the most elitist attitude you can have.

I'm the exact opposite, having no IT or programming experience, I feel, "If I can figure out desktop Linux, anyone can..."

[karellen]

Most of the elitism I've seen is from the "goodbye" threads.

How many threads condemning desktop Linux have started out, "I've been a system administrator and programmer for 20 years..." trying to make it sound as if "I'm so great and know so much about computers. If I can't figure out desktop Linux, no one can!" Well, that's just about the most elitist attitude you can have.

I'm the exact opposite, having no IT or programming experience, I feel, "If I can figure out desktop Linux, anyone can..."

:)....I know. the fact is everyone can, with a little time, benevolence and desire to learn

[GSF1200S]

So, because the software isnt up to snuff in your particular case, you give up on the OS.

What about contributing and making the software better? What about the software that is top notch- amarok for example? I mean everything has its ups and downs.

What about running windows in a virtual machine, or hell, linux in a virtual machine. Then you have everything you need on both sides. Rather than picking a side.

Id dedicate all my time designing stuff for linux, but I dont know enough about programming. I also need to make a living somehow.

Rather than have a problem with the lack of software, some people should help develop; thats how Linux gets better...

[B. Gates]

So, because the software isnt up to snuff in your particular case, you give up on the OS.
Well... yes. Running software is the primary use of any computer - the OS just provides the base.

What about contributing and making the software better? What about the software that is top notch- amarok for example? I mean everything has its ups and downs.
How can I make Half-Life any better than it already is? :)

I'm only a moderately-skilled programmer, I doubt I could contribute that much except for submitting bug reports. As for Amorak, it's quite good I agree. Actually it's pretty kick-***, and I haven't seen anything in Windows which matches it. So yeah, it's not like Windows software is better in every sense. There are good and bad examples everywhere, and I'd agree that there's a LOT of crap, horrid software in Windows, probably more-so than in Linux.

What about running windows in a virtual machine, or hell, linux in a virtual machine. Then you have everything you need on both sides. Rather than picking a side.
A fair choice. I hate dual-booting for some reason (juggling multiple operating systems isn't my idea of fun), but I can use VMware in Windows so I'm not giving up Linux entirely.

Id dedicate all my time designing stuff for linux, but I dont know enough about programming. I also need to make a living somehow.

Rather than have a problem with the lack of software, some people should help develop; thats how Linux gets better...
They do, that's why Linux will continue to get better. Some people can't want that long though, so they leave for familiar pastures.

[dan171717]

i dont like the amount of software avalble for linux either my ubuntu paertion is small (at a tiny 4.1gb) but i still use it and will for the future but i hate the terminal but i will learn more. the linux communty is growing all the time and there has never been a better time to get it since ubuntu 6.06. but i still dual boot and use windows for many reasons i am using it now. i still love ubuntu and i am saying a big thanks to the guys who make it i dont know why they didnt want money for it i like it loads and if i had the money would pay £50 for it i will not buy vista as it is overprised and ubuntu is better (aftr all beryl and a vista skin looks better!!)

[dan171717]

btw half-life ismy fav game but it is closed source so work tomake tremulous better. i am crap at programing (infact i cant program at all but i can make games with gamemaker)

[morghi76]

oh come on! I cannot stand those saying that it takes a programmer to run Ubuntu. You need an internet connection and that's it. Ah, and of course you have to be willing to experiment something new. But I'm wondering who's the type of guy spending time on a Ubuntu forum just to say "Bye Ubuntu"... In case you feel alone tomorrow look for a XP forum and start a new thread "I'm back XP",
Good luck with XP!

[Chrisj303]

@B.GATES - What you say about piracy is true. If somebody can't afford it, they will just get a crack copy. As a result, the "it's free" selling point of Linux hasn't made anybody i've showed it too bite at all. - regardless of OS, all software is free if you want it to be.

[lsutiger]

Well, I started with some curiosity back in about July of last year. Messed around with Fedora, but was totally lost. Gave it up.

Downloaded Ubuntu in September of last year. Not sure why I didn't install, and have no idea what distro was available then.

Popped into this forum from time to time to read, and was a little skittish at all of the so called 'problems' posted. Made me a bit queasy, but the amount help was quite incouraging.
In February, I decided to do it! I installed Dapper, dual boot with my XP, totally freaking lost and not knowing what to do. Sudo was completely greek to me, didn't know the difference between hda1 and sda1, and fstab, well that word in itself can scare small children and adults alike.
Here is my first post (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=372856).

That was merely 5 months ago. Keep that in mind.

At this moment I am on my encrypted wireless network, I have Beryl installed ( yes on a notebook), my desktop is quite nice is you ask me. I am listening to iTunes downloaded music (yes the drm tagged) with Amarok. And best of all, I just got this notebook June 1st. It came with Vista, but it has never seen Vista. I wiped the drive and installed Feisty. You here that, NO WINDOZE!!! I am completely functional. If I have to do some programming for our office I just rdp in and start working, just as if I were there.

I know how to do just enough to be dangerous. I bought two books and almost went blind reading posts on this forum. It is just doing things a different way. A habit, a new habit, that I am glad I formed.

The community is awsome, the idea is awsome, and changing to Linux was and still is awsome! Freedom is our common call....

PS - I handed out my first Ubuntu disk last week :)

[reiki]

lsutiger,

I enjoyed reading your first post. :) No I am not evil.... it reminded me of my own sense of bewilderment in the beginning. I asked a lot of questions and did a lot of Googling. :)

That was in August of 2005. Ubuntu has been my primary OS since then. I had to keep a Windows install handy though. I have some stuff that that connects to the computer via USB and gets programmed, updated, or read. (My Logitech Harmony Remote for my A/V equipment and I also have a piece of medical equipment ...) There are simply some things that are not ported or can't be ported for one reason or another.

Lately... the Virtual Machine software has seen some improvements. I can now update BOTH of the above-mentioned pieces of equipment in a VM where before I could not (unless I spent about $200 on VMWare Workstation). Now I use VirtualBox for those 2 things and while it does not technically FREE me from Windows... it sure makes living with it easier.

I also used to get a bit bent out of shape with people saying Ubuntu couldn't do this or that. Now I just don't care. Hey.... use what works for ya. If spending hundreds of dollars for your operating system (which is bloated, runs like crap, and has way more control over YOU than you over IT...) works for ya... go for it. If you want to spend hundreds of dollars for Office applications.... more power to ya.

I do everything I need to do in linux now, but the reality of it is that some folks have stuff they want to do that they CAN'T do in linux... whether that means a special game or a certain application.

So for those saying "bye" to linux.... I say, "buh-bye" and I wish you well.

USE WHAT WORKS.

For me, that's Ubuntu

[CM Xtasy]

This is my "goodbye" to Ubuntu as well. It's not fitting my needs as of now. What basically holds me back is the fact that Counter-Strike 1.6 cannot play well at all. I've tried all of the best programs that runs it (CrossOver, Cedega, Wine), but none of them run it like Windows does. Also I prefer Microsoft Office 2007 over OpenOffice and Photoshop over GIMP. Ubuntu was great for the 2 months I've used it. I will probably come back to it, but as for now, I'm going to use XP. I hope in the future I will be able to play CS 1.6 perfectly (just as well as Windows) on Ubuntu.

[Sweet00th]

I dual boot because i like to online race multi player and windose is the only way right now.
But i like linux "ubuntu" at the moment because of so many choices and its not as limited as windows.
why not dual boot?

[CM Xtasy]

I was dual-booting XP and Ubuntu, but I used half of my hard drive for Ubuntu and it doesnt need that much. Also I do most of my work on XP, and just mess around in Ubuntu.

[epee]

The community? It's nice, but the zealots who suggest you convert to Ogg and buy a portable music player which supports Ogg, to replace the one you already own which doesn't, ruin things.
I think that very much hits the nail on the head.

On the flipside of your argument, I actually have some Windows software I've paid for! It is a real shame that now I've got Ubuntu on my desktop machine that investment is lost. And the fact is, simply too many (big) companies still simply do not support Linux (of any flavour) and they don't seem to be even contemplating it either!

Oh, and despite the very latest update, the 2-6-20-16 kernel still has major problems...

[Alex&Linux]

I can understand this kind of frustration, and it seems that a certain attitude is required to use a Linux distro. Curiosity, desire for understanding, beholding problems as opportunities for greater knowledge to be obtained, determination.

Any answer sought can be found through these pages, or through an internet search (often bringing me back here :) )

[dannymichel]

Utter frustration.



So anyway, I think that Ubuntu, given time, will be right up there with Windows in ease of use.

Maybe he'll be back.
Will it?
Hmmmmmmmmmm

[Linux Killer!]

As someone wiser than myself once told me:

"Why move from one set of hassles to another set of hassles?"

Alright, so your Windows rig is full of viruses/spyware/etc. You move to Linux to avoid this, cool. So now you have a problem with finding replacement software that may or may not be up to your standards, or even do what you want (a really big problem for power users accustomed to commercial-grade software). Then you find out your wireless network card won't work, so you have to use ndiswrapper and hope it allows you more than just WEP (mine didn't, does in Vista, which finds the card out of the box might I had).

Is it worth the effort leaning about an entirely new OS, or would the time be better spent learning how to harden your existing OS just a little better and change you practices to better your experiences? The latter is far more practical and far less of a hassle. It takes less time too.

[steven8]

mine didn't, does in Vista, which finds the card out of the box might I had

Too funny. That's the kind of unthinking comments I see all too often. The developers of your wireless card undoubtedly created it 'for windows', not 'for linux'. Of course it found it ootb, LinuxKiller! (oi). Linux devs have to try and figure it out without anything to go by accept what the thing needs to do.

Once again, this has nothing to do with windows being better than a linux distro. Just amazing. . .

[lsutiger]

As someone wiser than myself once told me:

"Why move from one set of hassles to another set of hassles?"

.
The hassles that MS gives you could make your machine unworkable. The hassles that Linux gives you makes you work sometimes to make the 'bells and whistles' work'...I vote for the latter.

Then you find out your wireless network card won't work, so you have to use ndiswrapper and hope it allows you more than just WEP (mine didn't, does in Vista, which finds the card out of the box might I had)..
I have the well known Broadcom wireless chipset that "doesn't work out of the box". I don't use ndiswrapper and I use network manager to connect with WPA security. To be honest, it is better than windoze. I can bounce between wireless networks without a problem (had to setup 23 wireless access points for all of our locations this week and tested each one with this here horrible Ubuntu Feisty laptop!).
I have been a practising MS user for well over a decade, almost two. I have been with Linux a whole 5+ months. I got my wireless working by following this post (http://ubuntu1501.blogspot.com/2007/05/another-way-to-get-wi-fi-on-dell-1501.html) within minutes.

Linux is just different. If you don't like it and can't deal with the little headaches that come with doing things differently, do what works for you. I just will always have a faster, virus free, spyware free, adware, bloatware free machine. And that, in itself, makes me sleep better at night!

[reiki]

A lot of what I'm seeing in this thread as far as people getting frustrated because linux is different.... could also apply to a PC user switching to a Mac. I see teh same responses (I work at a university in IT) from people going from a PC environment to the Mac and also from Mac users trying to use a PC.

A lot of this comes down to habit. And I tell people time and time again...

If you continue to do things the same way, you will always have the same result.

Variety is GOOD for us. :)

[socomoddjob]

Well, i have been using ubuntu exclusively for the last 6 months, i unfortunately have decided that XP works alot better for me. I gave linux a fair shot and ive learned quite a good deal in the process but i dont think Ubuntu is quite ready for prime time.

[moore.bryan]

a whole six months? wow... ;-)
you know, posting your issues might be helpful to others who travel down the dark path...

[Kobalt]

15 posts in 6 months, very talkative indeed...

Bye socomoddjob ! :)

[crane]

Sorry to here it didn't work out for you. I disagree that is not ready for primetime though. I have been using Linux for a long time with no problem.
Like Bryan said at least share what has brought you to this decision. Not asking for a flame just and explanation.
Best of luck to you whichever path you take.

Peace