Linspire latest sell out to Microsoft patent protection racket

[jrusso2]

http://www.desktoplinux.com/news/NS9642338710.html

Linspire Inc. on June 14 will announce an agreement to license VoIP, Windows Media, and TrueType font technology from Microsoft for use in its Linux distribution. Additionally, the deal includes protection for Linspire customers against possible violations of Microsoft patents by Linux, and other cooperative measures.

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According to a story published by the Associated Press, Linspire reportedly will license Microsoft technologies relating to VoIP (voice over Internet Protocol), Windows Media multimedia, and TrueType fonts. Additionally, in a blow to search engine leader Google, Linspire reportedly will make Microsoft's Live.com search engine the default "on PCs that run its Linspire operating system."

Linspire has long made an effort to bundle proprietary drivers and software with its Linspire and Freespire Linux distributions, as a way to offer users a Linux OS that works with a wide range of popular multimedia formats and browser plug-ins, and can play DVDs out of the box.

Another area of cooperation will be on technology for interoperability between documents stored in OpenXML and the Open Document Format, as in the Xandros/Microsoft agreement announced on June 5.

Additionally, as with both the Xandros/Microsoft and earlier Novell/Microsoft agreements, this new Linspire/Microsoft agreement reportedly will offer protection to Linspire Linux users against possible infringement of Microsoft patents by Linux. Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer claimed on May 14 that "Linux violates over 228 patents," but to date Microsoft has not detailed any alleged infringements.

In addition to the Novell/Microsoft and Xandros/Microsoft deals, Microsoft on June 7 announced an agreement with LG Electronics said to enable LG to use Microsoft patented technology in its product lines, including in its Linux-based embedded devices.

Meanwhile, the Free Software Foundation (FSF) has been busy preparing a final draft of the GNU General Public License Version 3 (GPLv3) that contains language aimed at making these kinds of patent pacts a violation of the license. As of this writing, however, the top Linux kernel developers appear unwilling to migrate the Linux kernel to GPLv3 from GPL2, or to utilize a combination of both GPL licenses.

This deal between Linspire and Microsoft is particularly interesting in light of the earlier bad blood between the two companies. Linspire was founded in 2001 by Michael Robertson under the name, "Lindows." In July of 2004, after several years of threats and saber rattling by Microsoft, which claimed that "Lindows" violated its "Windows" trademark, the two companies reached a settlement, whereby Microsoft was rumored to have paid Lindows $20 million to change its name to Linspire, transfer its Lindows-related domain names to Microsoft, and otherwise abandon its use of the term, "Lindows."

The worst part is next

According to sources, customers of Linspire's Linspire Linux distribution who wish to take advantage of the newly licensed Microsoft technologies for VoIP, multimedia, and TrueType fonts will be required to signify their acceptance of a Microsoft patent license, much as when users install Adobe's PDF Reader or other proprietary software on Linux. Presumably, the patent license will also contain language that offers Lindows users protection against possible infringement of Microsoft patents by Linux.

In his weekly "Linspire Letter" scheduled to be published on June 14, Carmony states, "Today, Linspire announced our latest partnership, one with Microsoft, to bring even more choices to desktop Linux users, and together, offer a 'better' Linux experience. Just as Steve Jobs announced in 1997 that 'the era of setting this up as a competition between Apple and Microsoft is over,' I too believe it's time for Linux to do the same. Rather than isolating Linux, I believe we need to understand, as Apple did in 1997, that Linux exists in an ecosystem and must work with and interoperate within that ecosystem. As unpopular as it may appear to some, Linspire is willing to take a lead in this effort. Some people booed Steve Jobs back in 1997, but if you trace the history of his announcement, I think it was an incredibly smart move for both Microsoft and Apple, issuing in a new era for both."

Regarding the genesis of this deal, Carmony explains, "Linspire has always believed in working with partners to integrate Linux into the desktop computing ecosystem. It became obvious to me that we were missing a partnership with one of the most important participants in that ecosystem, Microsoft. So, about a year and a half ago, I contacted Microsoft and asked for a meeting to discuss how we could work together to make a 'better' Linux. I was confident Microsoft would welcome my invitation, because I knew there could be an economic incentive for them to do so. As I had expected, they welcomed my call, and I immediately flew to Redmond for the first of many meetings over the following months, taking place in both Redmond and San Diego, culminating in this week's announced partnership."

Financial terms and other details of this deal have not been revealed.

[beameup]

Once again, it's another commercial distro making this deal. Time will tell where it leads.

[Adamant1988]

This absolutely makes sense for them to do. This is one of the better moves they've made...

[DreamcastJack]

go figure. but eh, it apparently wont affect freespire.. so i'm good.

[tgalati4]

So, you have another user-agreement to click through when you install. Most Windows users are accustomed to clicking these EULA's when installing anything on Windows. So, Linspire will have them and they will be 14-pages long.

Will it make Linspire run better as an OS? Sure. Will it make better compatibility with other MS programs and MS-running websites. Sure. I see this as Win-Win.

Linspire and SUSE are two of several hundred Linux distros available that you can load on your PC. So those that don't like what Linspire is doing can choose not to load it on their computer.

If this gets Linspire onto more desktops, especially corporate, then that's good. Most corporations won't take the risk of loading a thousand PC's with Linspire, knowing that they could get sued by MS in a few years. It's just not worth it to them.

With patent-protection, the legal risk of being sued by Microsoft is reduced. It's clear to see that Microsoft is changing their business model. One from writing mediocre software to bringing lawsuits against customers who have stop using their products.

What could top Vista?

[SunnyRabbiera]

OSX at this rate....

[karellen]

OSX at this rate....

I strongly doubt that...MS is very strong on desktops, virtually a monopoly

[Hecaen]

This absolutely makes sense for them to do. This is one of the better moves they've made...
I see this as Win-Win.

Linspire uses the Ubuntu codebase, so I'm assuming neither of you would object if Shuttleworth advised Canonical's corporate clientele to cough up annual patent protection payments to Microsoft?

[luvdemheels]

Linspire is the latest linux company to join with Microsoft. I know earlier this year they entered into an agreement with ubuntu. Does this mean ubuntu is next?

http://www.linspire.com/linspire_letter_archives.php?id=48

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070614/ap_on_hi_te/microsoft_linspire;_ylt=AnuDXR1OysiQum2JtlnagYior7 oF

[FuturePilot]

Another one!!?? What is going on here!!?? MS is trying to sneak into every Linux distro so it can destroy Linux:o
I dont' think this means Ubuntu is next. I think Mark Shulttleworth knows better.

[ssam]

linspire have been licencing microsoft codecs for years. their goals are very different from ubuntu's.

[DigitalDuality]

Kevin Carmony is a sellout. I'll never touch CNR, or anything that crap wanna-be company puts out.

[floke]

You know CNR's heading our way right?
Besides, Freespire is a horrific distro. Who in their right mind would ever touch it?

[DigitalDuality]

You know CNR's heading our way right?
Besides, Freespire is a horrific distro. Who in their right mind would ever touch it?
win to lin converts

[floke]

I doubt it. True converts wouldn't go near it with a disinfected bargepole. Surely anyone wanting to leave Win would do so because they want something better?

[steeleyuk]

But maybe they also want something that just works (in their own minds anyway).

[floke]

Well that would explain why they left Win!

[msak007]

You know CNR's heading our way right?
Besides, Freespire is a horrific distro. Who in their right mind would ever touch it?
I sure as hell hope that Mark and all the other higher-ups @ Canonical are reconsidering that deal and keep that crap away from us. I refuse to use openSuSE because of Novell's MS deal (I never even considered Xandros or Freespire), and I'd hate to stop using Kubuntu because of some crap like CNR being inculded now that Linspire is working with MS. I was never a big fan of CNR to begin with and cringed when I read about the deal in the works, and I really hope Mark considers this is deal breaker. I would have simply chosen to not use CNR before, but I can't continue supporting a company or distro that financially helps (directly / indirectly) someone who works with MS, and the CNR deal would do just that.

[james_2002uk]

Mark Shuttleworth actually said in an interview that he wouldn't do a deal like this so I think we're safe! As for CNR, if you don't want it you don't have to use it, its all about choice remember and I think you'd have to go to allot of effort to make sure that none of your money ever went back to Microsoft so I wouldn't worry about indirect stuff like then Ubuntu using CNR, so supporting Linspire who sell out to Microsoft type thing.

I think Canonical is setting itself up to be a major Linux player and a deal like this would seriously hinder that ambition, what you have to worry about is Red Hat joining the old Microsoft bandwagon, they are still number 1 and if they joined it would hurt any possible defence we have against Microsoft Patent claims.

[ThinkBuntu]

I'm sure everyone who sells Linux except maybe Red Hat will make these sorts of deals with Microsoft. But everyone knows that, unless Microsoft could buy out Debian and Red Hat, their little mission will be a failure. I think Mandriva may give Microsoft the middle finger though and not sign a deal. In any case I would be thoroughly stunned if a free distro (Ubuntu, etc.) signed this sort of deal, since they have limited business concerns. So you guys really don't need to worry about Ubuntu signing this kind of deal...makes you sound alarmist!

[Anthem]

How... interesting. Does Microsoft have some sort of dirt on these guys? Or are they tossing oodles of money at them? I really don't understand how they could roll out so many of these deals so quickly.

[the.dark.lord]

One more distro gone to the dogs, but perhaps we're better off without such distros.

[Adamant1988]

I'm sure everyone who sells Linux except maybe Red Hat will make these sorts of deals with Microsoft. But everyone knows that, unless Microsoft could buy out Debian and Red Hat, their little mission will be a failure. I think Mandriva may give Microsoft the middle finger though and not sign a deal. In any case I would be thoroughly stunned if a free distro (Ubuntu, etc.) signed this sort of deal, since they have limited business concerns. So you guys really don't need to worry about Ubuntu signing this kind of deal...makes you sound alarmist!

I don't know about that... I'm sure that this deal has been a business boon for any company involved in it. Unlike the member of this forums, IT-staff aren't so petty as to switch operating systems on a dime when there is a LOT of money involved in that change.

[ThinkBuntu]

I don't know about that... I'm sure that this deal has been a business boon for any company involved in it. Unlike the member of this forums, IT-staff aren't so petty as to switch operating systems on a dime when there is a LOT of money involved in that change.
Either way, that's just my speculation. My main point is that Linux will never go fully corporate, and that people are worrying too much about these buyouts. These were business before, are businesses now, and the GPL protects open source from having its code robbed.

[deanlinkous]

I don't know about that... I'm sure that this deal has been a business boon for any company involved in it.
Wait five years and see if you can repeat that statement with a straight face.

Embrace, Extend, and ______________

[deanlinkous]

and the GPL protects open source from having its code robbed.
No it is SUPPOSE to do that. What is happening now is it is robbed, raped and the license is thrown in the code writers face...

[Adamant1988]

No it is SUPPOSE to do that. What is happening now is it is robbed, raped and the license is thrown in the code writers face...

Ah, deanlinkous, I knew that once the name Linspire was in the news again you would be here in short order. Welcome back to the forums.

[bonzodog]

Has anyone even bothered to look at the map of the linux distros in the physical world lately?

It's all to do with where they come from.

Only the US based distros will do these kind of deals, as they can be caught out by patent laws.

Ubuntu is a UK distro, ergo, there is no logical reason to do a deal with MS, as MS cannot touch us.

The same applies to Mandriva and Zenwalk- they are both French.

Debian and Slackware are both US based, but they are unlikely to even bother. They will wait until someone actually tries to do something to them, then promptly start the mother of all OS wars, using the FSF, and The Nazgul (IBM Legal) to fight for them.

[bsell]

Microsoft has deep pockets. Cash-strapped companies like Linspire, Xandros and Novell want M$ money to be competitive. M$ gets to prop up its competitors and stir the FOSS community pot.

[mvidberg]

It seems to be that the only distros doing business with Microsoft are the ones that are on their last legs anyway and they figure "what the heck, might as well go for the free cash". These companies never had the Linux user in mind in the first place, money is the motivator.

[Kimm]

If Ubuntu ever does a deal like this, I (and I bet lots of others) will move to Fedora. I dont think Ubuntu has a lot to gain by doing it.

[smoker]

as the old saying goes, 'there is no such thing as a free lunch'

if microsoft was buying me lunch, i'd check my shirt was still on my back before i left the table!:-)

[purdy hate machine]

It seems to be that the only distros doing business with Microsoft are the ones that are on their last legs anyway and they figure "what the heck, might as well go for the free cash". These companies never had the Linux user in mind in the first place, money is the motivator.

Incredible!

[ThinkBuntu]

No it is SUPPOSE to do that. What is happening now is it is robbed, raped and the license is thrown in the code writers face...
Microsoft knows very well that these companies will have to remain open source to use open source code (well, to modify it in any way) and that the same goes for Microsoft. If Microsoft started blatantly stealing code protected by the GPL, they would either be sued, and would have to make the suicidal anti-software patent defense, or suck it up, cease and desist, and pay back big bucks to Linux.

[DeadSuperHero]

You know, I actually looked at this article. At first I was kind of shocked, and wanted to scream "SELLOUT!"
But, the deal actually seems rather sound. Microsoft's not buying out Linspire. They're just making a deal to make compatible versions of Microsoft's software to be Linux compatible. Is that really all that bad?
I mean, heck, if Canonical were to make partnerships with EA games, Sony, Google, Blizzard, or any other corporation, I really wouldn't mind. Having a partnership/deal with a company doesn't make one company a slave to another.

[CaptainTux]

I sure as hell hope that Mark and all the other higher-ups @ Canonical are reconsidering that deal and keep that crap away from us. I refuse to use openSuSE because of Novell's MS deal (I never even considered Xandros or Freespire), and I'd hate to stop using Kubuntu because of some crap like CNR being inculded now that Linspire is working with MS. I was never a big fan of CNR to begin with and cringed when I read about the deal in the works, and I really hope Mark considers this is deal breaker. I would have simply chosen to not use CNR before, but I can't continue supporting a company or distro that financially helps (directly / indirectly) someone who works with MS, and the CNR deal would do just that.

It is my understanding that CNR will not be included as part of the default Ubuntu. It will be an option you can choose to get by going to CNR.com. I am basically saying that you are safe from the tainting you fear.

[.Morpheus]

Yeah, linux needs windows compatibility if it wants to gain market share, but I read that article on Yahoo, and since they claim that linux violates their patents, I guess linspire and others a doing this to prevent being sued. Still, I would not like Ubuntu partnered with MS. If it does, then Linux Mint FTW!

[deanlinkous]

Microsoft knows very well that these companies will have to remain open source to use open source code (well, to modify it in any way) and that the same goes for Microsoft. If Microsoft started blatantly stealing code protected by the GPL, they would either be sued, and would have to make the suicidal anti-software patent defense, or suck it up, cease and desist, and pay back big bucks to Linux.
Yes, but if the modified version of openoffice that is in novell/xandros/linspire is able to use microsoft technology under patent protection and no other linux distro is able to then that kind of robs the openoffice code, rapes the meaning of sharing, and makes it *as good as* proprietary.

[jml]

I think that M$'s motives relate to this statement in the Cnet article:

"...while Linspire will join an effort to create translators between Office 2007's XML file formats and the OpenDocument format. "

Currently M$ makes the vast majority of its profits from two products, Windows and Office. The IT landscape is changing. As we move to more web based applications, and client server apps in business, the actual OS that is running on your computer becomes irrelevant. This is a big problem for M$'s business model. So the importance of Office as a profit center increases.

Second, by developing compatibility between the Office XML format and OpenDocument format, M$ can then try to convince governments and corporations not to migrate from Office to open and free alternatives like OpenOffice.org, arguinging that they are no longer "locked in" to M$ products.

Third, by developing these translators with commercial distros that have signed agreements with M$, they may be able to prevent the sharing of these translators with the distros that have not signed up (read RedHat.) putting them at a competitive disadvantage, at least in business.

Its obvious that M$ takes the open source threat seriously. I'm just glad I do not run a commercial distro.

Joe

[deanlinkous]

If you become just like the *other* thing, then how are you different? How is two of the same thigns - providing choice?

[ThinkBuntu]

Yes, but if the modified version of openoffice that is in novell/xandros/linspire is able to use microsoft technology under patent protection and no other linux distro is able to then that kind of robs the openoffice code, rapes the meaning of sharing, and makes it *as good as* proprietary.
Microsoft isn't exactly going to hand over the Office code and let these companies offer it for free. I'll stay with OOo (and Abiword) because they're free and open-source. People who want MS Office in Linux use Crossover and other solutions, and having these apps run natively isn't a huge draw so long as OOo offers superb compatibility.

[deanlinkous]

Have you read these agreements??

[Celegorm]

You know, I actually looked at this article. At first I was kind of shocked, and wanted to scream "SELLOUT!"
But, the deal actually seems rather sound. Microsoft's not buying out Linspire. They're just making a deal to make compatible versions of Microsoft's software to be Linux compatible. Is that really all that bad?
I mean, heck, if Canonical were to make partnerships with EA games, Sony, Google, Blizzard, or any other corporation, I really wouldn't mind. Having a partnership/deal with a company doesn't make one company a slave to another.

It's the part of the deal having to do with patents that's a problem.

[ThinkBuntu]

Have you read these agreements??
Nope.

[Hecaen]

An in no sense disingenuous Kevin Carmony, writing on June 5th:

I know the drafters of GPLv3 are well intentioned, and perhaps feel
they are dealing Microsoft, Tivo, the film studios, and others, a
serious blow with the new language, but we could end up cutting off our
own nose to spite our face. By limiting how Linux can be used, we could
actually slow down the adoption of Linux, thereby assisting competing
operating systems in keeping their sizable leads.

'GPLv3 - Unforeseen Consequences?', http://www.linspire.com/linspire_letter_archives.php?id=47

[CaptainTux]

Have you read these agreements??

I would very much like to.

[adzik]

I really hope the companies out there that have Suse's SLES "coupons" from MS turn them in after the GPL3 goes into effect. It will be fun watching MS try to figure a way out of being legally bound to offering there so called "patent protections" to all Linux users. :)

[deanlinkous]

You know what I meant - have you read what they released? ;)

IMO what will happen is they will basically work together to make their *own* linux parts. Nobody else will be able to use those parts because you cant be sure what is tainted. Those companies do not have to worry about trampling on patents (worthless or valid patents) whereas other linux(s) do have to worry about it.

They have taken code, that the writer placed under the GPL in the hopes that everyone would have equal rights to and require sharing. Now that is spit upon.

They have broken any means of sharing.

They have broken the "level playing field" that software freedoms work to create.

IMO - This is what comes of hybrid-linux. KC has been working this for a long time. Playing some people like a harp to get them to accept crap like this.

Capt - if you think that the patent protection swims upstream....well....I cant say. ;)

[tikal26]

I guess if I was outside the USA I would be outraged, but I am inside the USA and I appreciate the opportunity to listen windows media 10 inside Linux and do other things without worrying about breaking the law. I really don't care about the whole patent, intellectual property stuff. I wonder if this pact covers CNR?

[deanlinkous]

I really hope the companies out there that have Suse's SLES "coupons" from MS turn them in after the GPL3 goes into effect. It will be fun watching MS try to figure a way out of being legally bound to offering there so called "patent protections" to all Linux users. :)
I honestly doubt the GPLv3 is going to be effective against this for various reasons. Either way that is yet another legal battle that is going to take over where SCO left off. Who is going to lead that legal battle - and what will be proven. It would be years and years. The effective thing against deals like these are people and companies remaining true to the idea of software freedoms and not cashing in for a quick buck. I guess it shows what we can expect companies to do - kind of silly to think they were ever about anything else to begin with. They want to be like redhat when it comes to profit, yet NOT act like redhat when it comes to community.

[ThinkBuntu]

I guess if I was outside the USA I would be outraged, but I am inside the USA and I appreciate the opportunity to listen windows media 10 inside Linux and do other things without worrying about breaking the law. I really don't care about the whole patent, intellectual property stuff. I wonder if this pact covers CNR?
Give me a break. You and I know that software patent law will never affect us unless we're selling pirated software...

[deanlinkous]

ooooo look, linux can do everything windows can do.....oooooo

Oh wait, why didnt I just use windows in the first frickin place!

[str8line]

The only good thing about any of these agreements with MafiaSoft is the interoperability that it may bring. The patent infringement garbage that is always brought to the front of the discussion is the deal breaker for me and for many others.

If as Kevin Carmony stated it is about giving choice to the consumer then great. If I want to run Media Player 10 instead of VLC then with interoperability I can. If I want to compromise my system and run IE on my Linux box then more power to me. But when you sign a deal with the Devil.....you must remember that he wants his payment too. Microsoft lost its chance to bring down Linux by supporting SCO and throwing money their way, this is another attempt to keep the North American status quo and keep the enterprise desktop with Microsoft.

I can only hope that for all things that are Ubuntu, I do not see an similar statement coming from Mark Shuttleworth or Matthew Szulik because that would be the end for the FOSS community as we know it.

Chris P....giving the Str8line

[saulgoode]

You know, I actually looked at this article. At first I was kind of shocked, and wanted to scream "SELLOUT!"
But, the deal actually seems rather sound. Microsoft's not buying out Linspire. They're just making a deal to make compatible versions of Microsoft's software to be Linux compatible. Is that really all that bad?

It is the patent covenant that will be problematic for Linspire. Any patent protection offered by MS is only extended to Linspire's customers, not Linspire itself (that would violate the licenses of most of the software of which Linspire is comprised). By entering into this agreement, Linspire has basically provided support to MS's contention that Linspire is engaging in patent infringement.

Novell, at least, holds significant patents which they can balance against any that Microsoft may hold (in fact, the outcome of the SCO lawsuit showed that it was SCO who had violated Novell's patent licensing). Linspire (I am guessing) does not possess a significant patent portfolio and, without any protection offered through this so-called "covenant" (it is only Linspire's customers who are indemnified), it is not inconceivable that they will become subservient to Microsoft's wishes. Linspire has gained no patent protection from this deal (assuming MS's claims have any validity in the first place) and has only weakened its position in this regard (by providing supporting evidence that infringement is taking place).

All-in-all, a bad move on Linspire's part and its shareholders might wish to consider a change in management.

[deanlinkous]

Interoperability comes from standards and those already exist - but microsoft does not want to follow those standards. Ask yourself why? If they are sincere about *interoperability* then certainly they would.

Microsoft already created http://interopvendoralliance.org/
The Interop Vendor Alliance is a community of software and hardware vendors working together to enhance interoperability with Microsoft systems. how much more interoperability do we need?

As you can see it has some major players http://interopvendoralliance.org/Directory.aspx Why haven't we heard of all the accomplishments from this alliance if it is all about interoperability?

The recent deals are simply extortion using patent threats - no more and no less....

[deanlinkous]

All-in-all, a bad move on Linspire's part and its shareholders might wish to consider a change in management.
What shareholders? ;) The company cannot even turn a profit.....even WITH this deal. MWa ha ha haaa

[the.dark.lord]

Linspire uses the Ubuntu codebase, so I'm assuming neither of you would object if Shuttleworth advised Canonical's corporate clientele to cough up annual patent protection payments to Microsoft?

If that ever happens, the first thing I'll do is switch to Fedora(assuming it hasn't signed a deal with Microsoft ;)).

[CaptainTux]

Capt - if you think that the patent protection swims upstream....well....I cant say. ;)

I do not think anything of the sort. Since Linspire executives and staffers have a history of communicating with the community directly, I have posed the question on the *spire forums.

As the elected Vice chair of the Freespire Community Board, I feel that the questions I posed on the forums are valid. I am not calling anyone names, I am not assaulting, I am not even judging. I want an answer from them regarding my queries...not just for me, but for the members of that community.

At that point, the information is out there for the community there to make an educated decision as to weather or not they support this patent contract.

[Extreme Coder]

Yes, but if the modified version of openoffice that is in novell/xandros/linspire is able to use microsoft technology under patent protection and no other linux distro is able to then that kind of robs the openoffice code, rapes the meaning of sharing, and makes it *as good as* proprietary.

Wouldn't the GPL prevent them from doing so? Because as far as I know, you can't take a GPLed program source, modify it, and only distribute the binaries. You'd have to distribute the modified source too.

Anyway, I'm crossing Linspire, and Xandros off my list. I didn't cross Novell(or OpenSUSE) yet, because:
1) Novell's deal is a lot bigger, and I didn't actually read all the details.
2) Even If I cross out Novell, OpenSUSE is a community distro, made by the OpenSUSE community. Wouldn't be fair to cross them out.

It's really hard to guess what corp or distro they're after know. It'd be a shame if Red Hat signed with them.

[Turboaaa2001]

I think it boils down to this

1. Microsoft owns the major market and is therefor the "benchmark" i.e. Works with Windows

2. Microsoft wants to have their hands in everything. They are a major contributer and player in ANY OFFICIAL software organization. They failed to get in on Mac because they have a die-hard following.

I see the ONLY competition for MS is Mac. They are the only ones that can get away with dissing MS while MS can't say anything bad about them. You all know that if you sad Linux is better MS would turn-around and say that it's not easy enough to use (or some *** * like that)

3. Ubuntu will never sell-out because of what they stand for. Ever watch the video clips included with your installation? Also, if they did it would not matter. A group of people who used their software will just start programing "underground".

4. We are only doomed when Intel can find a way to make their chip-sets and hardware do something that everyone wants and will only work with Windows.

[Ozor Mox]

Ok firstly it's annoying how some people think that everyone is getting all up-in-arms about this because it's a deal with Microsoft and to the FOSS community, they are the devil and so on... If these deals didn't include the patent sections, I doubt anyone but the true "Micro$oft haters" would have a problem with it, as better interoperability can only be a good thing. But this patent nonsense has been one of the two main features (the other being interoperability) of every single deal so far, and they seem to now be coming thick and fast... It's so suspicious, I find it hard to believe that anyone but the most dense people don't think something else is going on here, something that does not spell good news for FOSS. It's good to see that most people aren't so trusting.

Secondly, if this keeps up the way it is, does anyone think there will be a critical mass point, either in terms of the number of deals having been made, or in terms of a deal being made with a(nother) major company like Red Hat or Canonical where the FOSS community, Linux developers, FSF, Linux-supporting companies, someone will respond or do something? If so, what? I have no idea what this could be, but I question how long this can go on as it is. Obviously, a deal with Canonical would send the Ubuntu community into a flurry of debate and probably mass migration, but I'm talking about the wider community of free software supporters/developers/organisations/big names...

[Adamant1988]

Wouldn't the GPL prevent them from doing so? Because as far as I know, you can't take a GPLed program source, modify it, and only distribute the binaries. You'd have to distribute the modified source too.

Anyway, I'm crossing Linspire, and Xandros off my list. I didn't cross Novell(or OpenSUSE) yet, because:
1) Novell's deal is a lot bigger, and I didn't actually read all the details.
2) Even If I cross out Novell, OpenSUSE is a community distro, made by the OpenSUSE community. Wouldn't be fair to cross them out.

It's really hard to guess what corp or distro they're after know. It'd be a shame if Red Hat signed with them.

Well, they would still have to distribute it, but the technology would be patent encumbered (sort of like the problem we have with .mp3 and other closed formats) making it effectively illegal to distribute in the U.S.

[Toet]

What is the connection between Ubuntu and Linspire?

[CaptainTux]

What is the connection between Ubuntu and Linspire?

http://www.linspire.com/lindows_news_pressreleases_archives.php?id=213

It is more of a feel good press release than it is a technology partnership. Linspire will be based off Ubuntu and CNR will be (when Linspire releases it) available to Ubuntu users if they wish to have it. Contrary to popular belief, CNR will not be included in the Ubuntu ISO. One would have to go to CNR.com, register, download it, etc.

[kprowell]

I think everyone here would agree that the only thing that MS truly wants is Windows on every computer out there. Competition is a dirty word for them. IMHO, I feel as if this is the beginning of something more than patent deals, something that "may" be the end of FOSS / Linux as we know it today. What that may be I don't know. Hell, I might be totally off base (I hope so) but if MS is ivolved I don't trust it. It feels like a modern day Trojan Horse(and not the virus kind).

[tikal26]

Give me a break. You and I know that software patent law will never affect us unless we're selling pirated software...

Well, as retarded as it sounds I like to be as law abiding as I can the problem is the laws in the USA, plus I prefer Linux as my OS, but MS media is used all around and I would like to be able to use it. I hate the whole patent thing, but interoperability is always a good thing (open office).

[deanlinkous]

Check this out.....uses Kevin Carmonys own words

http://www.businessreviewonline.com/os/archives/2007/06/a_slight_differ.html

[adzik]

Well, as retarded as it sounds I like to be as law abiding as I can the problem is the laws in the USA, plus I prefer Linux as my OS, but MS media is used all around and I would like to be able to use it. I hate the whole patent thing, but interoperability is always a good thing (open office).

I would think that regardless of the deals MS has made and is making, they will not let every linux user/group suddenly use their media codecs except their new buddies, maybe not even.
But itsn't that what co's like Fluendo are trying to offer? A legal avenue for linux users?
Just my thoughts.

[ThinkBuntu]

Well, as retarded as it sounds I like to be as law abiding as I can the problem is the laws in the USA, plus I prefer Linux as my OS, but MS media is used all around and I would like to be able to use it. I hate the whole patent thing, but interoperability is always a good thing (open office).
Unreasonable laws can and should be broken. I drive 80 in the 55 on my way to the office, and most everyone in the fast lane is going 75+. Yes, a sign restricts my speed, but I know that as long as I'm driving safely and not endangering others, 80 is fine. I'm 19, and while I seldom if ever get drunk, I think that prohibition should only apply to those under 18 (I commonly employ the military argument: you can get shot up in Fallujah, but not have a Guiness?), and as such I'll have a couple of beers socially. Marijuana is less dangerous than alcohol or tobacco, yet is completely prohibited. I use it occasionally when chilling out with friends, relaxing by myself, or when I can't sleep and need to (i.e. it's 1AM, and I need to be up at 6:30 for work).

In short, I think that software laws requiring me to pay up to use a certain audio format for my personal use, or to burn a friend the occasional CD, are ridiculous, so I won't abide by them.

[kamaboko]

In short, I think that software laws requiring me to pay up to use a certain audio format for my personal use, or to burn a friend the occasional CD, are ridiculous, so I won't abide by them.

So what you're saying is that it's ridiculous to pay people for their work. Perfect. I'll give you a job. Don't expect to be paid though.

[kamaboko]

I think everyone here would agree that the only thing that MS truly wants is Windows on every computer out there.

If that were truly the case, MS wouldn't have stepped in in the late 90's to bail Apple out of their financial crisis. MS invested $150 million dollars into Apple.

[kprowell]

If that were truly the case, MS wouldn't have stepped in in the late 90's to bail Apple out of their financial crisis. MS invested $150 million dollars into Apple.

True but that was then and they also stood to lose money if Apple failed. Like I said, I could be completely wrong about everything but it does smell funny...

[koshatnik]

I think that M$'s motives relate to this statement in the Cnet article:

"...while Linspire will join an effort to create translators between Office 2007's XML file formats and the OpenDocument format. "

Currently M$ makes the vast majority of its profits from two products, Windows and Office. The IT landscape is changing. As we move to more web based applications, and client server apps in business, the actual OS that is running on your computer becomes irrelevant. This is a big problem for M$'s business model. So the importance of Office as a profit center increases.

Second, by developing compatibility between the Office XML format and OpenDocument format, M$ can then try to convince governments and corporations not to migrate from Office to open and free alternatives like OpenOffice.org, arguinging that they are no longer "locked in" to M$ products.

Third, by developing these translators with commercial distros that have signed agreements with M$, they may be able to prevent the sharing of these translators with the distros that have not signed up (read RedHat.) putting them at a competitive disadvantage, at least in business.

Its obvious that M$ takes the open source threat seriously. I'm just glad I do not run a commercial distro.

Joe

At last, someone gets it :p

[Hecaen]

http://www.linspire.com/lindows_news_pressreleases_archives.php?id=213

It is more of a feel good press release than it is a technology partnership. Linspire will be based off Ubuntu and CNR will be (when Linspire releases it) available to Ubuntu users if they wish to have it. Contrary to popular belief, CNR will not be included in the Ubuntu ISO. One would have to go to CNR.com, register, download it, etc.

The press release states otherwise: "Canonical plans to integrate aspects of the open source CNR technology into Ubuntu's software management system starting with Ubuntu's Feisty +1 release expected in October 2007 (http://wiki.freespire.org/index.php/Linspire_Canonical_Partnership_FAQ)".

The question is, assuming that these repositories belong to and are administered by Linspire, will Ubuntu CNR users then have to agree to a Microsoft/Linspire EULA indicating that they accept Microsoft's patent licenses?

[adzik]

I agree this entire scenario does seem fishy.
I mean, why wait until just recently to start signing all these deals?? What happened over there in Redmond?
In the same timeframe, what does the GPL3 really mean in all of this? I'm not a legal professional so all the comments being made on this new iteration of the license has just messed me up. :confused:
Can MS use the transition of the license to do something legally if they get enough Linux vendors?

[CaptainTux]

The press release states otherwise: "Canonical plans to integrate aspects of the open source CNR technology into Ubuntu's software management system starting with Ubuntu's Feisty +1 release expected in October 2007 (http://wiki.freespire.org/index.php/Linspire_Canonical_Partnership_FAQ)".

The question is, assuming that these repositories belong to and are administered by Linspire, will Ubuntu CNR users then have to agree to a Microsoft/Linspire EULA indicating that they accept Microsoft's patent licenses?
Point #2 on that link you gave says 2) Canonical will utilize Linspire's CNR technology for aspects of Ubuntu's software delivery system.

Further down in states
Linspire and Freespire fully incorporate CNR throughout. (Ubuntu will be incorporating aspects of CNR technology in the future.)

So, there are certain parts of the CNR code that are open source. Ubuntu is using certain aspects of it and not using CNR proper. It is likely that Ubuntu will be using aspects of the GPL's section of the CNR code to enhance the look and feel of the add/remove software feature on the Applications Menu. It would not be CNR.

[icechen1]

I agree this entire scenario does seem fishy.
I mean, why wait until just recently to start signing all these deals?? What happened over there in Redmond?
In the same timeframe, what does the GPL3 really mean in all of this? I'm not a legal professional so all the comments being made on this new iteration of the license has just messed me up. :confused:
Can MS use the transition of the license to do something legally if they get enough Linux vendors?

I heard that GPL V3 will stop patent deals once for all.

[Hecaen]

So, there are certain parts of the CNR code that are open source. Ubuntu is using certain aspects of it and not using CNR proper. It is likely that Ubuntu will be using aspects of the GPL's section of the CNR code to enhance the look and feel of the add/remove software feature on the Applications Menu. It would not be CNR.

My point is that users of 7.10 will be using a plugin shipped by default to install patent-bound fonts and codecs. That's not a problem in itself, but if the repositories in question belong to Linspire rather than Ubuntu then users will presumably be required to explicitly agree to Microsoft EULAs for the privilege of doing so (and therefore elect to give credence to software patents).

While important in other respects, whether or not the the code is in part or whole Linspire's, or in part or whole GPL'd, or whether it complements or replaces current features isn't really the issue here.

[CaptainTux]

And my counter is that Ubuntu will have some CNR code in it, but it will not have CNR. If you want CNR, you would have to go to CNR.com to order it and register. Then you got all those EULA's

[Extreme Coder]

I heard that GPL V3 will stop patent deals once for all.
But will the current deals be violating the law?

[Cheese Sandwich]

I'm sure everyone who sells Linux except maybe Red Hat will make these sorts of deals with Microsoft. But everyone knows that, unless Microsoft could buy out Debian and Red Hat, their little mission will be a failure. I think Mandriva may give Microsoft the middle finger though and not sign a deal. In any case I would be thoroughly stunned if a free distro (Ubuntu, etc.) signed this sort of deal, since they have limited business concerns. So you guys really don't need to worry about Ubuntu signing this kind of deal...makes you sound alarmist!

The remaining independent Linux companies may be singled out & become targets of heavyweight lawsuits by MS, however.

[Hecaen]

And my counter is that Ubuntu will have some CNR code in it, but it will not have CNR. If you want CNR, you would have to go to CNR.com to order it and register. Then you got all those EULA's

Whether or not the code for the CNR plugin in question is

(i) wholly Linspire's or wholly Ubuntu's, or some combination of the two, or
(ii) a complete or partial implementation of Linspire's CNR technology

is utterly immaterial. The fact is that according to an official FAQ (http://wiki.freespire.org/index.php/Linspire_Canonical_Partnership_FAQ), 7.10 will be shipping with an officially supported (i.e. officially sanctioned) plugin that enables users to access fonts and codecs, but only -- assuming that the relevant repositories are controlled by Microsoft's lackey Linspire -- if users are willing to demonstrate their legal consent to software patents.

The fact that users won't be obliged to use this plugin is likewise immaterial. Whether Ubuntu/Canonical should be extending implicit ethical, political and commercial approval (and therefore credence) to software patents in this way certainly isn't.

Fedora and Debian sure as hell wouldn't be...

[xArv3nx]

You guys are taking this crap too seriously.

EDIT: Cussing.

[ThinkBuntu]

So what you're saying is that it's ridiculous to pay people for their work. Perfect. I'll give you a job. Don't expect to be paid though.
Better than taking people's work without asking them and then selling it, as does Microsoft. I'm no expert, but the word is that it can be easily proven that they've stolen work done by Unix and Linux open source programmers.

[awakatanka]

Better than taking people's work without asking them and then selling it, as does Microsoft. I'm no expert, but the word is that it can be easily proven that they've stolen work done by Unix and Linux open source programmers.Source our prove? If they have opensource in there code and its GPL then they play a risky game. But dont throw accusations without prove.

[macogw]

I sure as hell hope that Mark and all the other higher-ups @ Canonical are reconsidering that deal and keep that crap away from us. I refuse to use openSuSE because of Novell's MS deal (I never even considered Xandros or Freespire), and I'd hate to stop using Kubuntu because of some crap like CNR being inculded now that Linspire is working with MS. I was never a big fan of CNR to begin with and cringed when I read about the deal in the works, and I really hope Mark considers this is deal breaker. I would have simply chosen to not use CNR before, but I can't continue supporting a company or distro that financially helps (directly / indirectly) someone who works with MS, and the CNR deal would do just that.

Don't mix up SuSE and OpenSuSE. Plain SuSE is Novell. OpenSuSE is community. Same on the difference between Linspire and Freespire.

[BetaguyGZT]

There are both good and bad points to this whole thing. The reason that I personally don't like this is because it will put Microsoft into a position where it will have the firepower to pull some really shady things with GNU/Linux. Step away and see the big picture for a moment:

If Microsoft's intentions were honorable and meant to enhance the IT world, making Windows and GNU/Linux better, more compatible, and with the interests of the end user being the focal point and the crux, then I'd support this.

The fact is that Microsoft is not interested in the end-user, or in making the IT world a better place, unless it bolsters the bottom line in a big way. So with all these deals and agreements being reached, what is the benefit to Microsoft's bottom line?

In the end, I suspect that it will be shown that it's a scenario of assimilation. What one cannot control, they assimilate.

It reminds me of Braveheart, where the "Nobles" are the other distros, and Microsoft is Longshanks. I just hope that Ubuntu doesn't end up being the William Wallace of this story.

[goumples]

I dont care for Linspire, it was just another windows clone anyway. But these companies selling out to Microsoft are doing so at an alarming frequency. I don't like it.

[Al_maverick]

I am glad to see that the Ubuntu is taking note seriously of these deals. My personal point of view, based on experience is that Microsoft wants anything but interoperability or competition. The deal with Apple was to bail them out of the antitrust accusations, the deal with Novell is their next move after the SCO fiasco.
I wont use a distro that implies that I am violating any "non-innovative" MS patents (as most of them were declared by the EU in their interoperability ruling on MS).
I think this is a warning sign to Ubuntu that their balance between free and proprietary wont be easy and they can very fast enter shady ground. The deal with CNR is in that stance.
A pragmatist view might be good at sometimes, but there is a limit where you have to check what your moral is.
I use FOSS not only because it is free as in beer, but as in freedom, and better all accross the board except when it comes to open a proprietary format that was f***d up on purpose to prevent interoperability.
BTW, Im a FOSS programmer, and Im happy if you use what I do, just pay it forward. :)

Ubuntu, when the crisis comes, I hope you stand on the right side. MS has a reputation for making their partners bend over.

[tehkain]

The more people who sign these deals, be them MS pets or not, the more GNU/Linux looks like a violator and that MSs claims are true.

I do not think there is *much* merit to MSs claims(I use *much* because they do have patents on obvous things that xerox, IBM, and many others invented 40 years ago, things like 'a file in a folder'). A patent war would end in software patents in the US being released. They are fundamentaly flawed and it will take a war for the average person to see it.

[deanlinkous]

Don't mix up SuSE and OpenSuSE. Plain SuSE is Novell. OpenSuSE is community. Same on the difference between Linspire and Freespire.
IMO freespire is just as much of a proprietary product as Linspire and has nothing to do with community.

[deanlinkous]

Better than taking people's work without asking them and then selling it, as does Microsoft. I'm no expert, but the word is that it can be easily proven that they've stolen work done by Unix and Linux open source programmers.
Well you cant steal Unix (BSD license) code and I highly doubt they would get caught with gpl code since that would make that work open/free.

[deanlinkous]

And my counter is that Ubuntu will have some CNR code in it, but it will not have CNR. If you want CNR, you would have to go to CNR.com to order it and register. Then you got all those EULA's
I thought that since it is a *partnership* deal the CNR plugin will be included. Pretty sure that is what has been said. Pretty interesting.

[xwisdom]

....
Currently M$ makes the vast majority of its profits from two products, Windows and Office. The IT landscape is changing. As we move to more web based applications, and client server apps in business, the actual OS that is running on your computer becomes irrelevant. This is a big problem for M$'s business model. So the importance of Office as a profit center increases...

You are very right in this statement and that's why Microsoft made Linspire changed their default search engine from Google to Windows Live. Doing so they will destroy Google and when Windows Live is the next big thing they will move most of their software to the Live platform. Things like Office Live, etc.

It's a nice way to promote Microsoft products and services while reducing the market share of the competitors.

[Pollywoggy]

Kevin Carmony is a sellout. I'll never touch CNR, or anything that crap wanna-be company puts out.

Linspire is a commercial distribution made by a company to make money. Not everyone cares about politics, They want a distribution that works and lets them do what they do in Windows but without the crashes.

It's all about choice. If you are a purist, don't use commercial distributions. It's that simple.

[Pollywoggy]

I dont care for Linspire, it was just another windows clone anyway. But these companies selling out to Microsoft are doing so at an alarming frequency. I don't like it.


Just stick with Ubuntu or Debian :)

[imspecial]

You are very right in this statement and that's why Microsoft made Linspire changed their default search engine from Google to Windows Live. Doing so they will destroy Google and when Windows Live is the next big thing they will move most of their software to the Live platform. Things like Office Live, etc.

It's a nice way to promote Microsoft products and services while reducing the market share of the competitors.
because google is not the default search engine on a distro used by what, 1% of the linux community will not hurt it in anyway.

if you use firefox, you are using google as your default search engine, so unless they modify the source of firefox, the users will still most likely wind up using google anyway. And also google generates most of its money from its ads which appear on probably 50% or more of the sites on the net, that have ads on them...


In my opinion Debian, Redhat, Gentoo, and Slackware are basically the only guaranteed distros which will never side with microsoft. Gentoo and Slackware especially, as they would probably go to war with microsoft before they signed any agreement with them...

[CaptainTux]

I thought that since it is a *partnership* deal the CNR plugin will be included. Pretty sure that is what has been said. Pretty interesting.

Fluff PR. It makes a good press release, you look really keen for 15 minutes..lemmings applaud and then get distracted by something shiny because we Americans think in 28 minute increments with 2 commercial breaks.

[karellen]

Linspire is a commercial distribution made by a company to make money. Not everyone cares about politics, They want a distribution that works and lets them do what they do in Windows but without the crashes.

It's all about choice. If you are a purist, don't use commercial distributions. It's that simple.

I secont this. choices are all around us

[Ebuntor]

Linspire is a commercial distribution made by a company to make money.

So is Ubuntu. Sure Ubuntu is free but Canonical offers paid support. So in that respect there isn´t much/any difference between Linspire. :( (of course a big difference is bug #1 and Mark Shuttleworth saying he's pro-free and open software and against MS etc.)

[kagashe]

Linux-watch (http://www.linux-watch.com/news/NS5160975921.html) predicting the next one is Ubuntu.

kagashe

[bapoumba]

Threads merged.

[Ebuntor]

Linux-watch (http://www.linux-watch.com/news/NS5160975921.html) predicting the next one is Ubuntu.

kagashe

That article sure is full of false claims.

Mark Shuttleworth, CEO of Canonical Ltd., the company behind Ubuntu, had never been as hostile towards Microsoft as some Linux leaders. I mean, this is the Linux leader who's recently said "I'd love to work with Microsoft..."

Mark never said that. That quote is completely taken out of context. I can't remember the exact line but he said something like: if Microsoft's management changed and it would stop using those mafia like tactics to maintain it's monopoly then he would be willing to work with them.

Oh, and by the way, you do recall that Linspire 6 will be based on Ubuntu, don't you? And, that Ubuntu will be compatible with Linspire's revised CNR (click and run) software distribution system?
Luckily the CNR system won't be part of the official Ubuntu package, you'll have to go to the CNR website it download it.

Besides Ubuntu has been anti-Microsoft since the beginning: bug #1 (https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/1/+editstatus), Shuttleworth being pro free and open source software etc. I think Ubuntu along with Debian, Slackware and Gentoo (and maybe a few other I forgot) will be the last to work with MS.

[msak007]

That article sure is full of false claims.

Mark never said that. That quote is completely taken out of context. I can't remember the exact line but he said something like: if Microsoft's management changed and it would stop using those mafia like tactics to maintain it's monopoly then he would be willing to work with them.
It irritates me to no end when people take quotes out of context to make a more scintillating headline for their story, and it gets passed around like that. Here is an excerpt from the interview with Mark's exact words:

Microsoft is asking people to pay them for patents, but they won’t say which ones. If a guy walks into a shop and says: “It’s an unsafe neighbourhood, why don’t you pay me 20 bucks and I’ll make sure you’re okay,” that’s illegal. It’s racketeering. What Microsoft is doing with intellectual property is exactly the same. It’s a great company and I have great admiration for it, but this was not a well considered position.

So you wouldn’t do a deal?
No, absolutely not. But the time will come when the folks at Microsoft who have a clear vision for the company as a participant in this community, rather than as a hostile antagonist, will win. At that point I’d love to work with Microsoft. It’s not an evil empire. It’s just a company that is efficiently grounded in the 1980s. New leadership and new thinking might make it a more effective partner for us.
I don't see Ubuntu ever partnering with MS, at least not while Mark is at the top. Never say never though...the whole CNR deal is unnerving (even if it is optional) and I'm waiting to see what Mark says about this whole Linspire thing. But I agree with others that we'll never see Gentoo, Debian, or Slackware ever partner with MS. And despite the fact that it is a commercial distro and they compete with Novell's SuSE (which may be an incentive to get an advantage or at least be on level competing ground in the form of a partnership), I'm going to add Red Hat to that list too.




Here's (http://mybroadband.co.za/nephp/?m=show&id=6672) the original interview for reference.

[CaptainTux]

Fascinating stuff and thank you to those who corrected the record.

Small footnote in all of this Linspire/Microsoft stuff. I have officially resigned as the Vice Chair of the Freespire Community Board today.

Cheers

[Cheese Sandwich]

msak007

Your avatar is hilarious! :D

[justin whitaker]

But will the current deals be violating the law?

No, because there is nothing within the GPLv2 that prevents this type of arrangement. As long as adoption of GPLv3 remains in question, Microsoft can make deals with anyone they want, and it is legal.

[angryfirelord]

As others have said, these deals are for Linux vendors who are in financial trouble. Novell has always been dealing with these issues compared to Red Hat, who seems to be doing fine. Even if Mark somehow gave in, he'd lose most of his developers and base support (a fork would most likely follow).

I don't think we have anything to worry about.

[jrusso2]

Fascinating stuff and thank you to those who corrected the record.

Small footnote in all of this Linspire/Microsoft stuff. I have officially resigned as the Vice Chair of the Freespire Community Board today.


Cheers

Smart move Capt. I always knew you were one of the smarter ones there.

[CaptainTux]

Smart move Capt. I always knew you were one of the smarter ones there.

Thanks, jrusso! :)

I tried to make my resignation as polite as possible. On my professional relationship and business dealings with Linspire Inc, they were always good to work with. I was a client, a dealer/builder, and Linspire was a client of mine. As a client, they were a dream account. They were polite, understanding of delays, prompt in payment, and always easy to deal with. Whenever one of my customers has an issue, they would always assist me in resolving it.

I give them credit for the money they have contributed to key open source projects and some of the things they have given to the community such as code contributions to firefox and the creation of NVU. This patent protection deal is not something I can have my name associated with, though..even indirectly. I may not be a community leader in the same way that Shuttleworth, Bacon, Gagne', Murdoch and others are, but I am on the C list-if you will. As such, there are rare moments I have to make a stand...politely. ;) I am not a flame on type in these matters. I believe one can state one's case without personal assault.

If Xandros, Novell, and Linspire had worked together-tried to get some other distros to work together, and use the joint leverage to get a patent amnesty pact set up with MS on behalf of the community at large, I could have lived with that. It is Machiavellian to only look out for yourself and not have the same "protections" swim upstream.

[msak007]

msak007

Your avatar is hilarious! :D
Thanks :). Here's the original comic - I laughed for 5 minutes straight when I first read it and had to have it as my avatar (even though it's hard to read when it's that small):

http://xkcd.com/c149.html

Thanks, jrusso! :)

I tried to make my resignation as polite as possible. On my professional relationship and business dealings with Linspire Inc, they were always good to work with. I was a client, a dealer/builder, and Linspire was a client of mine. As a client, they were a dream account. They were polite, understanding of delays, prompt in payment, and always easy to deal with. Whenever one of my customers has an issue, they would always assist me in resolving it.

I give them credit for the money they have contributed to key open source projects and some of the things they have given to the community such as code contributions to firefox and the creation of NVU. This patent protection deal is not something I can have my name associated with, though..even indirectly. I may not be a community leader in the same way that Shuttleworth, Bacon, Gagne', Murdoch and others are, but I am on the C list-if you will. As such, there are rare moments I have to make a stand...politely. ;) I am not a flame on type in these matters. I believe one can state one's case without personal assault.

If Xandros, Novell, and Linspire had worked together-tried to get some other distros to work together, and use the joint leverage to get a patent amnesty pact set up with MS on behalf of the community at large, I could have lived with that. It is Machiavellian to only look out for yourself and not have the same "protections" swim upstream.
Way to stand up for what you believe in, even though it might have a detrimental financial effect to you. That deserves a lot of respect.

[CaptainTux]

Thanks :). Here's the original comic - I laughed for 5 minutes straight when I first read it and had to have it as my avatar (even though it's hard to read when it's that small):

http://xkcd.com/c149.html


Way to stand up for what you believe in, even though it might have a detrimental financial effect to you. That deserves a lot of respect.

There is no direct financial loss. Being on the community board is a pro bono affair. There is an indirect in that having that title was good street cred in the business sector and Linspire was, at one time, a client. However, I appreciate the support.

Cheers

[deanlinkous]

community BORED

[CaptainTux]

community BORED

Nah, the monthly meetings were pretty wild...especially when RevTom brought the midgets!:popcorn:

[deanlinkous]

honestly, what was a community board without a community especially after KC said freespire was a company product and just sort of community-ish
:)

[CaptainTux]

I honestly tried to reverse that with a few community initiatives. The community did their part. The community always did their part.

[CaptainTux]

It would appear I am not the only one to resign...

http://forum.freespire.org/showpost.php?p=65093&postcount=406

Chris John Ramaglia, one of the original members of the Leadership Board has resigned. He is a good man.



I also have high respect for the people at Free/Linspire, and have to thank them for introducing me into the very first distro that worked quite easily for me. Through the years many things have changed and were accepted or tolerated, but these recent turn of things just don't mix with my way of thinking, besides I'm working on a "new" project that will require all my attention... So I took the decision to resign from the Freespire Leadership and Technology boards...
Thanks everybody for all the good time and memories around here...

[deanlinkous]

I honestly tried to reverse that with a few community initiatives. The community did their part. The community always did their part.
true
But how can anyone support them now is beyond me...

[deanlinkous]

It would appear I am not the only one to resign...

http://forum.freespire.org/showpost.php?p=65093&postcount=406

Chris John Ramaglia, one of the original members of the Leadership Board has resigned. He is a good man.
Yep, seems like a cool dude....and a effective dude. How he can manage his project better than linspire seems to manage spire is beyond me. Makes me wonder if *spire has been reduced to three employees all working on CNR - the last bastian of hope. ;)

[CaptainTux]

I dunno. I was using Chris' Klik installer tool way back in 2004 on Lindows 4.5. I used it almost as much as I used CNR back them. In it's beta state it was pretty up to date and had the brain games I used to like to play that were not on CNR...or much older versions.

I've had interactions with him. Back when I first joined the Linsprire community in 2004, he was always the one that helped me when I was sooooo lost in the 4th circle of BASH hell.

He knows his stuff.

[CaptainTux]

Yep, seems like a cool dude....and a effective dude. How he can manage his project better than linspire seems to manage spire is beyond me. Makes me wonder if *spire has been reduced to three employees all working on CNR - the last bastian of hope. ;)

On the heels of that annoucement-MS will make a better Linux????-how much ky do you need before taking that one in the rear?-Freespire left my box. My laptop is feisty, my box is not ubuntu ce and my test box is klikit. My server is CentOS.

My oldest daughter has a laptop with feisty and...uh...vista (she's 18...she'll learn) and my six year old has an old apple book with OSX.2 and Edubuntu 6.06. No mas *spire.

[deanlinkous]

Just the gall of "ms will deliver a better linux" is reprehensible to me - the disgust from that statement alone....the more I had to read it the angry and disgusted I became. I think they want to throw it in the communitys face, I honestly think it is a joke to them. How much can we offend the community while we collect money from new users.

[jrusso2]

Just the gall of "ms will deliver a better linux" is reprehensible to me - the disgust from that statement alone....the more I had to read it the angry and disgusted I became. I think they want to throw it in the communitys face, I honestly think it is a joke to them. How much can we offend the community while we collect money from new users.

Turns my stomach each time I see that. Carmony going to lose a lot of friends just for that title.

And to think a few months ago I defended CNR in this forum I want to apologize for that.

[steven8]

Fascinating stuff and thank you to those who corrected the record.

Small footnote in all of this Linspire/Microsoft stuff. I have officially resigned as the Vice Chair of the Freespire Community Board today.

Cheers

Well done, Captain. You made the right move.

[deanlinkous]

I think he used the term "better" just to dangle some bait since I took offense at OPIUM making a better apt. He sells people on "better" yet never delivers. Everytime they fail they blame it on linux and free-software and the poor state of those, anytime they suceed it is always attributed to them and them alone.

Sheesh, I am getting riled up again. Going to have to ask to be banned here also :D

[CaptainTux]

Turns my stomach each time I see that. Carmony going to lose a lot of friends just for that title.

And to think a few months ago I defended CNR in this forum I want to apologize for that.

You defended it based on what you knew. Now you have new data. Don't beat yourself up.

I found out about the title and the decision from a post in Marcel Gagne's online LUGS mailing list. My response was simple...Frak Me! I was in shock. Npot over the call. I susepected it might happen...but the way it was announced and the people who are giving it cheers? I am still looking in the sky to see if there are 4 horsemen coming out of the clouds.

[angryfirelord]

For some reason, people are predicting that Ubuntu/Canonical will make a deal with MS. Fortunately, that's not going to happen.

http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/software/soa/Ubuntu-Red-Hat-reject-Microsoft-patent-deal/0,130061733,339278741,00.htm

[Sweet Mercury]

So, you have another user-agreement to click through when you install. Most Windows users are accustomed to clicking these EULA's when installing anything on Windows. So, Linspire will have them and they will be 14-pages long.

Will it make Linspire run better as an OS? Sure. Will it make better compatibility with other MS programs and MS-running websites. Sure. I see this as Win-Win.

Linspire and SUSE are two of several hundred Linux distros available that you can load on your PC. So those that don't like what Linspire is doing can choose not to load it on their computer.

If this gets Linspire onto more desktops, especially corporate, then that's good. Most corporations won't take the risk of loading a thousand PC's with Linspire, knowing that they could get sued by MS in a few years. It's just not worth it to them.

With patent-protection, the legal risk of being sued by Microsoft is reduced. It's clear to see that Microsoft is changing their business model. One from writing mediocre software to bringing lawsuits against customers who have stop using their products.

What could top Vista?

I still don't understand what the "risk" is to end users?

What would be the basis of a suit by Microsoft?

Are Ubuntu users at risk of being sued?

[vexorian]

I can actually understand patent agreements, but I think that making MS search the default is the most ridiculous thing to ever happen to a computer...

[igknighted]

I can actually understand patent agreements, but I think that making MS search the default is the most ridiculous thing to ever happen to a computer...

Why? It's no different than making google the default search engine. Smart move by MS, no one uses live compared to google, especially in the linux market, so why not? It's just the default search engine.

Overall, I don't understand the racket. MS is literally throwing money at OSS companies here. Novell made 300 million dollars in their deal I believe, and also got MS to distribute Suse CDs. All MS got was an agreement that novell wouldn't sue them for patents MS infringed on and MS would do likewise for novell. It is mutually assured destruction (think cold war). MS knows that linux, as a community movement, could survive a patent war, but they probably could not. Novell, Sun, etc. could probably sue them back to the stone age (and you know everyone who thinks MS wronged them would jump in that suit too). So really, its an agreement between companies and not much more. FOSS is in NO danger, in fact I believe this deal is in our best interest.

If anything this bickering is only helping MS and may well be their entire purpose behind making the deals. So chill out.

[kamaboko]

I would not be surprised to see MS push out a Linux based OS. It could potentially be a great move on their part. For instance, they have 90% of the world PC market. If they can develop enterprise level business applications with other Linux companies, patent those apps and make sure they're proprietary, it could literally gut other distros. Face it...if you were a Linux developer would you rather work for free or get paid for your coding? I know I'd rather collect a check.

[igknighted]

I would not be surprised to see MS push out a Linux based OS. It could potentially be a great move on their part. For instance, they have 90% of the world PC market. If they can develop enterprise level business applications with other Linux companies, patent those apps and make sure they're proprietary, it could literally gut other distros. Face it...if you were a Linux developer would you rather work for free or get paid for your coding? I know I'd rather collect a check.

I doubt it because of the GPL. Perhaps they could try what Mac did and use a kernel licensed like BSD's, but I don't see them doing that. In the end, a diversity of kernels will lead to the best security, so if every major OS was running a Linux or BSD based kernel, they would share many vulnerabilities and that is not good.

[kamaboko]

I doubt it because of the GPL. Perhaps they could try what Mac did and use a kernel licensed like BSD's, but I don't see them doing that. In the end, a diversity of kernels will lead to the best security, so if every major OS was running a Linux or BSD based kernel, they would share many vulnerabilities and that is not good.

MS is coming out with a new product called the "Home Server". Don't know if you've read much about it. In any case, this was designed specifically for interoperability b/t OS X and Linux. I'm just looking at the pieces of the puzzle. Linspire, Novell, and Xandros sign on with MS for joint ventures. MS has a new home server with OS functionality specifically to work with Linux and Mac. As for their next OS due in 2009, all communique with the press with respects to features and functionality have been cut. Longhorn was discussed for years before its release.

[StarsAndBars14]

Honestly, I wonder what the big problem a lot of people seem to have with this is.

You either want Microsoft to play well with Linux or you don't. There is no middle road. Period.

Maybe more corporations and such would choose to jump on the Linux bandwagon if users (representatives of the Linux community, and possibly the people they'd be hiring to fix their systems when they borked) didn't act in a rude manner to them and froth at the mouth whenever the possibilities of corporate Linux usage or patent agreements - latter without which they can possibly be sued - came up.

That applies both for small businesses and large ones.

[vexorian]

I think the new MSLinux distros can coexist with the rest of the OS world, afterall the GPL prevents MS' embrace, extend and estinguis so I don't worry too much, will just keep using non-MSLinux oses myself, and maybe something good could come from the MSLinux distros and if it does the GPL will allow us to incorporate it... If nothing good comes from them well we just ignore them and move on...

[angryfirelord]

You either want Microsoft to play well with Linux or you don't. There is no middle road. Period.

That's the problem with Microsoft. You don't know what they'll do and you can't trust patent agreements to do that.

[igknighted]

MS is coming out with a new product called the "Home Server". Don't know if you've read much about it. In any case, this was designed specifically for interoperability b/t OS X and Linux. I'm just looking at the pieces of the puzzle. Linspire, Novell, and Xandros sign on with MS for joint ventures. MS has a new home server with OS functionality specifically to work with Linux and Mac. As for their next OS due in 2009, all communique with the press with respects to features and functionality have been cut. Longhorn was discussed for years before its release.

I did some reading and found no mention of linux/mac interoperability from MS, although that really means nothing. But it is built on windows server 2003, which is on the NT kernel IIRC. I really don't see MS fighting the GPL to do this. Plus they bought a UNIX version some time ago, if anything that would become the core of a new OS. With good virtualization support they could keep backwords compatability but still make a stable, secure OS. A possibility, but still rather out there. Companies are too stubborn to make a big change like that, especially ones as successful as MS. If they did have the testicular fortitude to do that I would respect that a lot, and probably buy the new OS at some point. But they wont take a risk since they don't NEED to.