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mwillems
November 15th, 2004, 10:20 PM
.. so close to a workable desktop - thanks so much all.

But, there is a but.

I have now spent a day (life is short - this is a whole day!) and by now I have:

- magically figured out (thanks Google) how to add fonbts to make the browser etc look acceptable.

- same for other updates to make things work - simple things that should work.

- same for MP3 sound - what ARE you all thinking leaving this out? You may be taking a formall attitude but ZERO percent chance my son will ever accept Linux until it easily plays MPEG and MP3. Never, ever. And HE is your (our) market!

- same for my video card - where I have to run tuxracer to see if 3d is on (and it was not of course).

- And yet I can still not take mail and address books from Outlook express, I can still not use my Palm (USB not detecetd; I have spent 6 hours on this now), I still get a pnp bios warning upon boiot even though I have added the grub option to disable it; I still get a warning "fatal error inserting hw_random" when I start - and so on.

My conclusion: this is not ready for the masses, not by a LONG way. If you are a guru and have a day or two you can install it and get it to work, kinda.... And I am not flaming - I really, really want this to work.

Michael

HungSquirrel
November 15th, 2004, 10:28 PM
what ARE you all thinking leaving this out?
They are trying to keep Ubuntu freely and legally distributable in any country without paying royalties. (MP3 is patented.) Because it's relatively easy to get MP3 working yourself, I think the sacrifice is easy to manage.

mwillems
November 15th, 2004, 10:54 PM
But it's not actually easy. Easy would be "click here to install". Took a bit of googling...

jdodson
November 15th, 2004, 10:54 PM
- magically figured out (thanks Google) how to add fonbts to make the browser etc look acceptable.

- same for MP3 sound - what ARE you all thinking leaving this out? You may be taking a formall attitude but ZERO percent chance my son will ever accept Linux until it easily plays MPEG and MP3. Never, ever. And HE is your (our) market!

- same for my video card - where I have to run tuxracer to see if 3d is on (and it was not of course).


if you want linux to be used by the masses, have the masses start massing to request that mp3 be released under and free/open source license, and then do the same for your video card manufacturer.

ubuntu, as well as many other gnu/linux distros does not include non-free(as in freedom) software. such as non-free device drivers, and codecs. if the GPL allowed for non free drivers or linking in its software, you would not have the massive amounts of driver support in the kernel because hardware vendors would have no reason to GPL them. the gnu/linux kernel supports more hardware than any kernel including windows(out of the box or built in). one reason for this is the GPL. this has one cavat: if a company refuses to release a GPL driver you are kinda SOL to get it working 'out of the box.' however this does not stop anyone from releasing a binary only driver(which many manufacturerers do) and you installing it later, which MANY people do on windows or mac anyway. winXP doesnt hardly load crap on my laptop(when i used it) however i was fine to install all 5-8 drivers after i loaded it and many people are as well. however in linux, somehow people expect it to be 100% plug and go, and to be fair it is to a certain extent.

why does one use gnu/linux if they want windows in the first place? my reason for using gnu/linux? freedom. freedom from perpetual costs, upgrades, vendor lockin, viruses, spyware, trojans, etc. however the main reason lies in freedom.

all of the features you think need to be included by default are included in other linux distros. its even possible to get it working in ubuntu, however to my understanding they will not be included for reasons of license and philosophy, however the functionality is there.

http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=3713&highlight=nvidia+howto

http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=94

ask yourself the following: what can i do with a standard install of XP? ubuntu has much more functionality out of the box and much more can be added in, all for no cost to your freedom or pocketbook.

zenwhen
November 15th, 2004, 10:58 PM
Well said, jdodson.

mwillems
November 16th, 2004, 12:58 AM
Hi,


if you want linux to be used by the masses, have the masses start massing to request that mp3 be released under and free/open source license, and then do the same for your video card manufacturer.

No - I don't want religion on my PC, I want an OS that works on my PC. Again, I am really not wanting to start a flame war - I WANT this to work! - but I am taking Ubuntu off the PC, and this will be the first time in years I run Windows on my home desktop. But I just cannot take it anymore:

- OS installs in minutes: compliments to the Ubuntu team!

But...
- Palm then takes me a day or two to figure out
- So does playing media (wka eup: I have 2000 MP3's. Not 2000 Oggs or whetever other format is PC today).
- Then I discover I cannot move mail from Outlook Express (laptop) into evolution on into anything else on Linux
- Same for Win address book
- Then I discover that there is no hourglass so when I start OOo I wait for 5-8 seconds while nothing happens; as a result I start teh app twice
- Video card does not work
-P&P BIOS does not work
- Then I discover this distro calls everything by some other name and some genius has renamed resolv.conf into conf.resolv (or whatever) and 100 other things which each take me an hour to find out

So...
- Three weeks later I have a great desktop that runs a few apps!

Those three weeks are the issue. Yes you can be all holy about it and go on about formats and the industry and licenses, but in the end that does not help me at all - I just do not have the three weeks.

And if you do not help people like me (technical, committed, IT professional, big Linux fan, hates MS's abuse) to use Linux on the desktop, then you will NEVER convince the masses (my wife and kids and colleagues). And that will mean no drivers. no games, no Photoshop (which I cannot live without), etc etc etc.

Disillusioned, having just spent 6 hours TRYING in vein to get his palm recognised by Ubuntu (which in Windows takes 1 second)....

Michael

jdodson
November 16th, 2004, 01:11 AM
Hi,



No - I don't want religion on my PC, I want an OS that works on my PC. Again, I am really not wanting to start a flame war - I WANT this to work! - but I am taking Ubuntu off the PC, and this will be the first time in years I run Windows on my home desktop. But I just cannot take it anymore:

- OS installs in minutes: compliments to the Ubuntu team!

But...
- Palm then takes me a day or two to figure out
- So does playing media (wka eup: I have 2000 MP3's. Not 2000 Oggs or whetever other format is PC today).
- Then I discover I cannot move mail from Outlook Express (laptop) into evolution on into anything else on Linux
- Same for Win address book
- Then I discover that there is no hourglass so when I start OOo I wait for 5-8 seconds while nothing happens; as a result I start teh app twice
- Video card does not work
-P&P BIOS does not work
- Then I discover this distro calls everything by some other name and some genius has renamed resolv.conf into conf.resolv (or whatever) and 100 other things which each take me an hour to find out

So...
- Three weeks later I have a great desktop that runs a few apps!

Those three weeks are the issue. Yes you can be all holy about it and go on about formats and the industry and licenses, but in the end that does not help me at all - I just do not have the three weeks.

And if you do not help people like me (technical, committed, IT professional, big Linux fan, hates MS's abuse) to use Linux on the desktop, then you will NEVER convince the masses (my wife and kids and colleagues). And that will mean no drivers. no games, no Photoshop (which I cannot live without), etc etc etc.

Disillusioned, having just spent 6 hours TRYING in vein to get his palm recognised by Ubuntu (which in Windows takes 1 second)....

Michael

if you want an OS that "just works" please try MacOS, it tears Windows a new one for usability.

gnu/linux is a revolution, and right now it is not for everyone. i do not think that gnu/linux is ready for my grandmother, my parents or most of my friends. i make no assertation that it is "easy." it is making leaps and bounds at a very fast rate however.

gnu/linux will never be a one to one copy of microsoft windows for a 0$ price tag because of its "religious" license nature. some distros might bundle unfree as in freedom software with the distro however unless more hardware manufacturers jump on board, you will still have problems with your hardware. perhaps you should point some of your unhappiness to hardware vendors, it is plainly thier fault for your problems as ANY driver can be opensourced. ubuntu is made from free software not vendor lockin, this is its mission and goal, please understand that. ubuntu developers have spent and will spend time making ubuntu the best they can, this takes time and energy and we all recieve it for nothing.

if you are looking for an OS to make your compter free, you have come to the right place.

if you are looking for a 1 for 1 copy of the microsoft windows operating system, you have come to the wrong place as linux is not a clone of windows, it is a clone of unix.

gnu/linux has come leaps and bounds in the last few years and i understand it has not totally 'arrived', however it is the best OS that freedom can buy. i find it usable in many ways, however i do suffer the pangs of not using windows in many ways. however i choose "religion" and "freedom" than 1 second gratification, and i know that is not popular.

to address your issues:

what video card are you using?

are you still having problems viewing multimedia? did the howto i linked help?

what kind of bios are you using on your computer?

the openoffice issue is unfortunate however a reality.

p.s. personally i do not attempt to convince anyone to use gnu/linux, i used to but found it to be mostly in vain. you are here and that is a great thing, i hope can understand that sometimes moving to a new operating system takes time.

mwillems
November 16th, 2004, 01:39 AM
if you want an OS that "just works" please try MacOS, it tears Windows a new one for usability.

gnu/linux is a revolution, and right now it is not for everyone. i do not think that gnu/linux is ready for my grandmother, my parents or most of my friends. i make no assertation that it is "easy." it is making leaps and bounds at a very fast rate however.
[SNIP]
p.s. personally i do not attempt to convince anyone to use gnu/linux, i used to but found it to be mostly in vain. you are here and that is a great thing, i hope can understand that sometimes moving to a new operating system takes time.

Well, I think you are right, and progress is being made. Very annoying though that we are so close and yet so far away. And in some ways we move backward. A year or two ago Linux distros all had MP3 players - now they don't. Personally I would include the player and say damn the results: Sue if you must. Or at least a one-button "click here if you wish to be illegal and play MP3's", etc. But no, we talk abot Ogg Vorbis which no-one uses. Wake up: MP3 is THE sound format. Period.

The issues I outlined above are real, not imagined, and we need to see them resolved - and quickly. Unless Linux becomes a desktop OS for my granny, it will never really succeed - which we both want to happen. Well, my granny is long gone, but you know what I mean. And my sons, who are now firmly in the MS camp. Unless we can convince them...

The PC I bought for this (on which I am typing now) is a modern ASUS motherboard with a P4/3GHz, an Nvidia 5200 graphics card, a GB of RAM and an IDE 120 GB drive.

It comes so close. And yet my Palm is not recognised, my BIOS gives a BIOS error when it starts, the Nvidia card fails to load its proper driver, and so on. And then the software: neither Evolution not thunderbird read MS Outlook Express mail or address books. What the hell's with that? If we want granny to switch we'd better be ab le to read her address book, and I doubt MS has a patent on address books formats. It just seems dumb.

And the apps are where it's REALLY at. Until I can run my favourite apps I am in trouble. OOo is great as is Firefox: even on my Win laptop I do not have ofice, That battle is won. But Adobe? Corel? Games? Until Granny uses Linux the app-makers will not prt to Linux and Bill Gates will continue to dominate how we all use our own hardware - great shame.

I think IBM should step in and create a distro - that would provide critical mass.....


Cheers
Michael

jdodson
November 16th, 2004, 02:27 AM
Well, I think you are right, and progress is being made. Very annoying though that we are so close and yet so far away. And in some ways we move backward. A year or two ago Linux distros all had MP3 players - now they don't. Personally I would include the player and say damn the results: Sue if you must. Or at least a one-button "click here if you wish to be illegal and play MP3's", etc. But no, we talk abot Ogg Vorbis which no-one uses. Wake up: MP3 is THE sound format. Period.

i completley agree that mp3s are the most common musical format in use. however this is changing and will continue to change as the years go by. more and more people are encoding with .wma and .ra and .aac codecs, all being proprietary. people need to understand that as long as proprietary is the norm, so will it be hard to switch to another program, for instance one that does not use the codec your old program did. this is the proprietary game, as long as they cannot switch, they will not switch. mp3 was removed because ubuntu is required to pay a license fee to include mp3 playback, and the ubuntu developers want to create a free distro. other linux distros pay the free, mandrake and suse namely. should ubuntu pay to have mp3 playback? should ubuntu pay microsoft for .wma and .wmv playback? should they pay apple for rights to use thier own patiented codecs? no. people should understand when they play the proprietary game it comes with penalties that are a pain to overcome.

i know it might be easier to click once and install the codecs, many linux distros do this already and i am not sure if ubuntu plans to do this or not. they have a way to enable a non-free repository and thus play mp3s, dvds and wmas, etc, i think this is good enough for most users, however not my grandmother.


The issues I outlined above are real, not imagined, and we need to see them resolved - and quickly. Unless Linux becomes a desktop OS for my granny, it will never really succeed - which we both want to happen. Well, my granny is long gone, but you know what I mean. And my sons, who are now firmly in the MS camp. Unless we can convince them...


i think the pace that gnu/linux goes on is admirable because it is the pace of people like you and me giving of thier free time. to me it is both acceptable and awesome. however it does have aways to go to be sure.


The PC I bought for this (on which I am typing now) is a modern ASUS motherboard with a P4/3GHz, an Nvidia 5200 graphics card, a GB of RAM and an IDE 120 GB drive.

as everyones milage on installs does vary, the nvidia graphics card should plug and play with no problems. you do not get 3d accelrated video with the open source/free software driver that comes pre loaded with the kernel, reason being: nvidia will not provide one. the provide a 3d accelerated graphics driver that is not GPL licensed, thereby making it impossible under the GPL to link it in the stock ubuntu kernel. please understand there is not much that ubuntu can do on this one. i know suse does offer a "click here to install nvidia 3d drivers" in its install process, and then it gathers the files of an FTP server. ubuntu does not have this to my knowledge.


It comes so close. And yet my Palm is not recognised, my BIOS gives a BIOS error when it starts, the Nvidia card fails to load its proper driver, and so on. And then the software: neither Evolution not thunderbird read MS Outlook Express mail or address books. What the hell's with that? If we want granny to switch we'd better be ab le to read her address book, and I doubt MS has a patent on address books formats. It just seems dumb.

with no bios info i cannot address your problem specifically, however there is an ACPI bios issue in the ubuntu kernel, not specifically an ubuntu problem. to my knowledge this was fixed in the latest kernel version. as far as your outlook emails not being imported:http://www.google.com/search?q=import+outlook+emails+in+evolution&sourceid=firefox&start=0&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8


And the apps are where it's REALLY at. Until I can run my favourite apps I am in trouble. OOo is great as is Firefox: even on my Win laptop I do not have ofice, That battle is won. But Adobe? Corel? Games? Until Granny uses Linux the app-makers will not prt to Linux and Bill Gates will continue to dominate how we all use our own hardware - great shame.

i completley agree that applications are where its at. i think application developers are taking notice of linux, however its a bitter cycle, app developers want the linux user base to port, people want the apps to use linux so they wont switch yet, somewhere something has to budge and why would it be proprietary application vendors? if you keep going back to windows there is no incentive at all to port an app.

piedamaro
November 16th, 2004, 02:42 AM
Well, I think you are right, and progress is being made. Very annoying though that we are so close and yet so far away. And in some ways we move backward. A year or two ago Linux distros all had MP3 players - now they don't. Personally I would include the player and say damn the results: Sue if you must. Or at least a one-button "click here if you wish to be illegal and play MP3's", etc. But no, we talk abot Ogg Vorbis which no-one uses. Wake up: MP3 is THE sound format. Period.

The issues I outlined above are real, not imagined, and we need to see them resolved - and quickly. Unless Linux becomes a desktop OS for my granny, it will never really succeed - which we both want to happen. Well, my granny is long gone, but you know what I mean. And my sons, who are now firmly in the MS camp. Unless we can convince them...

The PC I bought for this (on which I am typing now) is a modern ASUS motherboard with a P4/3GHz, an Nvidia 5200 graphics card, a GB of RAM and an IDE 120 GB drive.

It comes so close. And yet my Palm is not recognised, my BIOS gives a BIOS error when it starts, the Nvidia card fails to load its proper driver, and so on. And then the software: neither Evolution not thunderbird read MS Outlook Express mail or address books. What the hell's with that? If we want granny to switch we'd better be ab le to read her address book, and I doubt MS has a patent on address books formats. It just seems dumb.

And the apps are where it's REALLY at. Until I can run my favourite apps I am in trouble. OOo is great as is Firefox: even on my Win laptop I do not have ofice, That battle is won. But Adobe? Corel? Games? Until Granny uses Linux the app-makers will not prt to Linux and Bill Gates will continue to dominate how we all use our own hardware - great shame.

I think IBM should step in and create a distro - that would provide critical mass.....


Cheers
Michael
Mp3s, if not a click away, are few clicks away. Just turn on your universe repository, which is kindly configured by the ubuntu folks, but deactivated, and download install gstreamer-mad. Same deal for dvd, mpeg, etc.
More than this there is the "press-here-to-install-patended-spftware" button.
Evolution _does_ import outlook messages and contacts, follow the evolution manual (F1 while in evo).
Startup notification works on fedora, it is possible that OOo comes with a misconfigured desktop file on ubuntu, it should contain the wm class used by the application, then notification will work. (I havn't checked).
I agree when you say that linux desktop is so close to be perfectly useable ;)

Zundfolge
November 16th, 2004, 04:23 AM
if you want an OS that "just works" please try MacOS, it tears Windows a new one for usability.

MacOS X is "*nix for the masses" ... which is why I've said for the last couple of years that Apple needs to just get out of the hardware business and release the darn i386 version of OS X and be done with it ... they'd kill Microsoft in about 8 hours and the world would be a better place.


I've come to pretty much the same conclusion as mwillems that Linux in general ... its just not ready for the masses yet ... and when it is its not going to be a freeware version like Ubuntu.


Linux is wonderful for computer geeks who see their computer as a project ... something to learn and conquer ... but to most people their computer is just a tool.

I have a table saw out in the garage and if I had to build it from scratch I wouldn't have a table saw.


For me, Linux is just an adventure ... an educational toy I can play with until I can finally afford a G5 so I can dump this Pentium 3 450 into the parts bin, but lets not kid ourselves, its not yet ready for the masses to use on a day to day basis in the home ... its just barely to the point where it is a good desktop in a business environment where you can have a full time IT guy on staff to set up everything and keep it running.


But its miles ahead of where it was just a few short years ago ... someday it will be the "Windows Killer" (or more likely, someday Windows will just be another *nix distro :-P )

FLeiXiuS
November 16th, 2004, 07:35 AM
Linux is wonderful for computer geeks who see their computer as a project ... something to learn and conquer ... but to most people their computer is just a tool.


Theres no place like 127.0.0.1!

Rodney
November 16th, 2004, 10:11 AM
Try Libranet , it is free now until the new version comes out
Nvidia drivers come with it
http://libranet.com/
Features of Libranet GNU/Linux 2.8.1

Feature summary:

* Advanced installer
* Libranet Adminmenu
* Libranet update-safe archive
* Security updates
* 100% Debian compatible
* Kernel 2.4.21
* XFree86 4.3.0
* KDE 3.1.3, GNOME 2.2.2, XFce
* IceWM, Fluxbox, Enlightenment
* Automatic hardware setup
* Support Solutions database
* email 'up and running' support
* Friendly community

See distrowatch.com for a partial list of packages

Extended list of features:
A choice of desktop environments and window managers
GNOME 2.2.2, KDE 3.1.3, IceWM, XFce, Enlightenment, Fluxbox, and more
Libranet installer
Most of the install is automatic. A step-by-step guide is available online.
Hardware detection
Automatically detect and setup most supported hardware including sound cards, network cards, PCMCIA cards, USB devices, printers, video cards, monitors, mice, and Zip drives
Libranet Adminmenu
System administration, and hardware setup made easy
The update-safe Libranet archive
New versions of software packages can be installed from the Libranet update-safe archive and your system remains 100% Debian compatible
Security updates
Installable from the Debian and Libranet archives
Kernel 2.4.21
The core of the matter
XFree86 4.3.0
Supports the latest graphics hardware
3D acceleration
Out of the box for supported cards
RealPlayer and Flash installer
Install RealPlayer 8 and Flash 6 using Adminmenu
Choice of web browers
Mozilla 1.4, Opera 7.0, Galeon, and more
OpenOffice 1.0.3
A complete office solution
Office software
Along with OpenOffice, many office applications are included such as Abiword, Gnumeric, and the experimental KOffice
Choice of filesystem
Choose from ReiserFS, EXT3, and EXT2
Graphical file managers
Manage files and launch applications
Debian based
Libranet has added many important updates (e.g. GNOME 2.2 KDE 3.1, XFree86 4.3). Libranet is 100% Debian compatible
Network Ready
Easily setup your LAN, DSL, Cable, or Dial-up connection
Install guide
Step by step guide available online
Solid support
You are well covered with installation support by e-mail, a solutions database, the Libranet Forum, and the Libranet Users mailing list
Community
Join the friendly and growing Libranet community
Multimedia ready
Music, movie and DVD players
Software package manager
Add/Remove packages, graphical package managers, update/install via the internet
Internet and network
Apache web server, FTP, NFS, BIND, Samba, DHCP
Development
A complete development environment
Games
Lots of them

HiddenWolf
November 16th, 2004, 12:19 PM
Hi,
But...
- Palm then takes me a day or two to figure out
- So does playing media (wka eup: I have 2000 MP3's. Not 2000 Oggs or whetever other format is PC today).
- Then I discover I cannot move mail from Outlook Express (laptop) into evolution on into anything else on Linux
- Same for Win address book
- Then I discover that there is no hourglass so when I start OOo I wait for 5-8 seconds while nothing happens; as a result I start teh app twice
- Video card does not work
-P&P BIOS does not work
- Then I discover this distro calls everything by some other name and some genius has renamed resolv.conf into conf.resolv (or whatever) and 100 other things which each take me an hour to find out

So...
- Three weeks later I have a great desktop that runs a few apps!


It is not my custom to be rude, but in this, i really can't resist.

if you would've come here, you could've resolved all these issue's in about the time it would take you to install flash/java/mpeg-decoder/ and winamp on your winxp box.
There is no reason whatsoever for it to take 3 weeks.

I know my way about a computer, but not around linux, and it still took me no more time then it took on windows.

Either you search wrong, or you don't look right, since there are easy and accesible man-pages and howto's, and plenty of posts linking to them on just this one forum, not to mention google, the debian support infrastructure, etc.

HiddenWolf
November 16th, 2004, 12:22 PM
My conclusion: this is not ready for the masses, not by a LONG way. If you are a guru and have a day or two you can install it and get it to work, kinda.... And I am not flaming - I really, really want this to work.


I really wonder why you take the time to attack ubuntu over this, since most information you where looking for is right here at your fingertips, yet you couldn't find it then.

jwb
November 16th, 2004, 09:07 PM
Theres no place like 127.0.0.1!

Hey! That's my IP too!

Give it back.

jwb
November 16th, 2004, 09:24 PM
My conclusion: this is not ready for the masses, not by a LONG way. If you are a guru and have a day or two you can install it and get it to work, kinda.... And I am not flaming - I really, really want this to work.

Michael

Exactly..... it's not ready for the masses.

I don't believe we've really even started to see where Linux will go. And you don't have to be a guru. The problems you pointed out can be solved in seconds. For free. FOSS/Linux/Ubuntu is a unique community that is only really beginning to roll. if you're familiar with US auto history, the best analogy I can think of is that it's still pre-Model T Ford. Once cars hit critical mass (thanks to Mr. Ford), it opened up the doors for far more than cars. Highways. FedEx to your door. Drive-thru at Mickey D's. Free spinning rims.

It's not ready for the masses.

It is not for gurus.

It is for people who love to explore and learn and get those little "a-ha!" moments that make computing fun. Yes, it can be frustrating. And also rewarding.

Go back to Windows, that's probably the best choice. I don't mean that as an insult either. If it fits your needs, stick with it.

Linux and Ubuntu will still be here.

Don't worry- you'll see us again. Mr. Ford and the Model T have yet to arrive. Once they do, you can't even imagine the places we'll go.

machiner
December 27th, 2004, 02:16 AM
I must disagree that linux is not ready for prime-time. Ubuntu is ready - fc3 is ready, and probably many others. Just because a user has to lift a finger to enable, or download something does not mean the OS is not ready for the masses.

Are you people kidding me -- how many windows users actually know what they are doing? How many of us reguarly help a friend/family member with their windows? I'm always helping someone -=- ususlly getting them out of a hole - because they had no idea what they were doing. Hell, most users I know can;t even tell me what browser they use...ahhh, browser?

Just because linux (pick your distro, save the obvious windows wannabe's) is a real (?) computing environment doesn't make it "not ready for prime-time. Windows isn't ready for the masses, either, it just scares lazy dumb users less. Um - yeah, I said lazy and dumb users. Sorry, the shoe fits.

I ran windows, like everyone else, for years -- even was employed as a sysadmin -- so I am well aware of the tweaking, configuration issues that abound on that platform. I never had a problem on my box at home, or any that I managed because I took the time to learn the machine I was using - consumers need to do the same -- or what the hell was the PC revolution all about?

As well, with windows you have the added bonus of having your computer hijacked by every a##hole out there with a penchant for writing a script.

I could go on for hours about how long it takes to install, configure - then set up with apps.

Also, I could write a treatise about how the one-click to install nightmare will absolutely modify, bloat, reconfigure, break your windows installation.

Now -- for you cry-baby's that want to use linux (pick a distro) and then rag on it because it doesn't break your setup like windows, or install mal-ware at every turn, or require you to shell out $3500 for a decent setup (pick your $$)...or hold your hand and pacify you like a 3 year old -- well -- you don't need to be running linux.

Do us lall a favor - stop being so dramatic - remove linux from your machine and stay with windows. It was MADE FOR YOU.

Sure, it took me a little while to get comfy, well actually it didn't - I was comfy from the get-go -- but it ltook me a little while to get used to the way linux is set up.

BUt I COMPUTE. I use my box as a computer not a dvd player, or mp3 player (although I do have 2500 mp3/ogg's on my box...and I might transcode a dvd or 3...but i use my computer as a computer.

not a pretty paperweight.

I don't really mean to rag on any folks - really - but give it a rest -- linux is NOT windows.

You should be glad of that. But I understand that the typical user wants to leave his brain at the door -- to your own folly.

Have you and idea what I can do with this box????? Well, now that I run linux that is.

happy computing

machiner

Buffalo Soldier
December 27th, 2004, 10:52 AM
I must disagree that linux is not ready for prime-time. Ubuntu is ready - fc3 is ready, and probably many others. Just because a user has to lift a finger to enable, or download something does not mean the OS is not ready for the masses.

Are you people kidding me -- how many windows users actually know what they are doing? How many of us reguarly help a friend/family member with their windows? I'm always helping someone -=- ususlly getting them out of a hole - because they had no idea what they were doing. Hell, most users I know can;t even tell me what browser they use...ahhh, browser?

Just because linux (pick your distro, save the obvious windows wannabe's) is a real (?) computing environment doesn't make it "not ready for prime-time. Windows isn't ready for the masses, either, it just scares lazy dumb users less. Um - yeah, I said lazy and dumb users. Sorry, the shoe fits.

I ran windows, like everyone else, for years -- even was employed as a sysadmin -- so I am well aware of the tweaking, configuration issues that abound on that platform. I never had a problem on my box at home, or any that I managed because I took the time to learn the machine I was using - consumers need to do the same -- or what the hell was the PC revolution all about?

As well, with windows you have the added bonus of having your computer hijacked by every a##hole out there with a penchant for writing a script.

I could go on for hours about how long it takes to install, configure - then set up with apps.

Also, I could write a treatise about how the one-click to install nightmare will absolutely modify, bloat, reconfigure, break your windows installation.

Now -- for you cry-baby's that want to use linux (pick a distro) and then rag on it because it doesn't break your setup like windows, or install mal-ware at every turn, or require you to shell out $3500 for a decent setup (pick your $$)...or hold your hand and pacify you like a 3 year old -- well -- you don't need to be running linux.

Do us lall a favor - stop being so dramatic - remove linux from your machine and stay with windows. It was MADE FOR YOU.

Sure, it took me a little while to get comfy, well actually it didn't - I was comfy from the get-go -- but it ltook me a little while to get used to the way linux is set up.

BUt I COMPUTE. I use my box as a computer not a dvd player, or mp3 player (although I do have 2500 mp3/ogg's on my box...and I might transcode a dvd or 3...but i use my computer as a computer.

not a pretty paperweight.

I don't really mean to rag on any folks - really - but give it a rest -- linux is NOT windows.

You should be glad of that. But I understand that the typical user wants to leave his brain at the door -- to your own folly.

Have you and idea what I can do with this box????? Well, now that I run linux that is.

happy computing

machiner
I have to agree with HiddenWolf. Maybe Linux/Ubuntu is not for you MWillems.

I myself am not a Linux/Ubuntu expert. But it only took me around 3+ hours to get ubuntu installed and running 95% of the things I want (such as flash, azureus, mp3 compatibility, windows-networked printer and etc).

The other 5% are the kinda things that I really can live without such as getting my X-chat looking like MIRC and getting my quickam messenger to work.

I agree that MP3 is NOT ONE click away. But it's about FOUR to FIVE clicks away. For me it is a very small price to pay.

poofyhairguy
December 28th, 2004, 11:57 PM
Well, I think you are right, and progress is being made. Very annoying though that we are so close and yet so far away. And in some ways we move backward. A year or two ago Linux distros all had MP3 players - now they don't. Personally I would include the player and say damn the results: Sue if you must. Or at least a one-button "click here if you wish to be illegal and play MP3's", etc. But no, we talk abot Ogg Vorbis which no-one uses. Wake up: MP3 is THE sound format. Period.

THE sound format that is tied up by patents. Its not hard to add MP3 support, and Ubuntu will never have it out of the box. Why? Because legally you are supposed to pay to use it. Some distros ignore this, but most that do are backed by a single person who said "damn tha lawyers." Ubuntu is backed by a company that can't do that. For your son I would advise SimplyMEPIS or KANOTIX if MP3 support is a MUST and there is no interent connection.


The issues I outlined above are real, not imagined, and we need to see them resolved - and quickly. Unless Linux becomes a desktop OS for my granny, it will never really succeed - which we both want to happen. Well, my granny is long gone, but you know what I mean. And my sons, who are now firmly in the MS camp. Unless we can convince them...

Your sons won't switch over as soon as they find out the gaming situation for linux. Ubuntu (with a little setting up - www.ubuntuguide.org) works great for granny as it is. What does she need to do? Send email, browse web, not have her computer be hosed by viruses and spyware she doesn't understand within a week. Ubuntu does this an much more.


The PC I bought for this (on which I am typing now) is a modern ASUS motherboard with a P4/3GHz, an Nvidia 5200 graphics card, a GB of RAM and an IDE 120 GB drive.

It comes so close. And yet my Palm is not recognised, my BIOS gives a BIOS error when it starts, the Nvidia card fails to load its proper driver, and so on. And then the software: neither Evolution not thunderbird read MS Outlook Express mail or address books. What the hell's with that? If we want granny to switch we'd better be ab le to read her address book, and I doubt MS has a patent on address books formats. It just seems dumb.

You doubt Microsoft has a patent on something? Microsoft wouls patent patents if they could.

This is the exact reason why I have switched all my family to a web based email system (go GMail invites!)


And the apps are where it's REALLY at. Until I can run my favourite apps I am in trouble. OOo is great as is Firefox: even on my Win laptop I do not have ofice, That battle is won. But Adobe? Corel? Games? Until Granny uses Linux the app-makers will not prt to Linux and Bill Gates will continue to dominate how we all use our own hardware - great shame.

One version old adobe works fine in crossover office. Some games work in cedaga. WINE gets better by the day. Its not linux's (or Ubuntu's) fault that most commercial programs are made for XP.

Linux will win when the emulation of windows apps is near perfect. But who needs linux to "win" anyway. I personally could do without the critical mass, and the viruses that come with it.


I think IBM should step in and create a distro - that would provide critical mass.....


Cheers
Michael

IBM could give a damn about the desktop market, thats Microsoft's albatross. To support all the inept computer users out there that are used to windows would be IBM's personal hell. They do have their own distro, its just aimed at the primary market for linux- servers.

Linux is a unix clone, it was never built to be the ultimate desktop machine. Just looking at the directory structure proves that. It works great for me though. This is the year I fully migrate from windows.

andlinux21
May 26th, 2005, 03:28 AM
For me getting Ubuntu to install and run very well I might add on my old Micron Transport laptop 233MHz was the main reason i switched from Windows I could barely get 98 to run on it with maxed out memory. I had played with other distros like SuSE and Xandros both which were pretty easy to install and use but Ubuntu was the best by far.

poofyhairguy
May 26th, 2005, 07:51 AM
And that will mean no drivers. no games, no Photoshop (which I cannot live without), etc etc etc.

If companies do not release their products for Linux, it is their loss. Eventually Adobe's subborness will push people to make tha Gimp better than Photoshop. If companies do not release drivers (or just the specs) for Linux, then they won't get business from Linux users. I only buy hardware that is supported out of the box personally. I can't comment on games, after years of trying to be a computer gamer I broke down and admitted one day that consoles do a better job (that day I also bought a Gamecube).

Linux doesn't need the masses to be successful. Sorry if that seems elitest, or stubborn, or cruel but its how I feel. I'm sick of this constant "Linux needs to...(fill in blank) to get supporters." There are many things it needs to do, and the people that care about Linux are driving to do that. Those that don't care (Adobe, Hardware makers, etc.) will be left in the cold when the economics of Linux (aka its freeness) gets it to dominate despite its lack of readiness.

EDIT: This post comes off as a little rude. Like I am mad or something. I am not, this is just my opinion (one unimportant person).

I give Ubuntu to people all the time to improve their computer experiance. But I don't give to anyone that "isn't ready" (aka hates windows and will try anything and be willing to sacrifice). For them (and me, and thousands of people on this forum) Linux is ready today. Perfect? no. But ready.

nocturn
May 26th, 2005, 08:36 AM
- same for MP3 sound - what ARE you all thinking leaving this out? You may be taking a formall attitude but ZERO percent chance my son will ever accept Linux until it easily plays MPEG and MP3. Never, ever. And HE is your (our) market!


Well, Ubuntu seems to mainly be thinking of not getting sued for patent violations.
Distributing MP3 codecs would leave the distro open to legal threats.



- same for my video card - where I have to run tuxracer to see if 3d is on (and it was not of course).


I do not know what problem you had, but I suppose you had to install the proprietary Nvidia or ATI driver.



- And yet I can still not take mail and address books from Outlook express,


Because you used a MS product, you got in to what is known as the 'vendor-lock-in'. Your contacts and mail where saved using a proprietary format, to which Free software devs have no access (besides time consuming reverse engineering, which may leave them vulnerable to legal threats).
You can get arround it for the address book by exporting to the vcf format (I think Outlook supports it).

This is one of the moral reasons to opt for Free Software, if you want to switch to another program later on, you can.



I can still not use my Palm (USB not detecetd; I have spent 6 hours on this now)


PDA support in Linux is not up to the software for windows distributed by the PDA makers. I can sync my Sony Clié but it took some figuring out and I have occasional problems.



My conclusion: this is not ready for the masses, not by a LONG way. If you are a guru and have a day or two you can install it and get it to work, kinda.... And I am not flaming - I really, really want this to work.
Michael

I'm sorry to hear that you had bad luck installing it and that you lost your day.
Someway, you are right, it is not ready for the masses, but no computer system today is (although their marketing departement would like you to believe so).

I have had extremly good luck with Ubuntu on my machines (3 of them so far), even upgrading went without a problem. I had a typical Ubuntu desktop with some customizations and extra software (inlcuding Palm support) set up in about 2 hours.

nocturn
May 26th, 2005, 08:51 AM
as everyones milage on installs does vary, the nvidia graphics card should plug and play with no problems. you do not get 3d accelrated video with the open source/free software driver that comes pre loaded with the kernel, reason being: nvidia will not provide one. the provide a 3d accelerated graphics driver that is not GPL licensed, thereby making it impossible under the GPL to link it in the stock ubuntu kernel. please understand there is not much that ubuntu can do on this one. i know suse does offer a "click here to install nvidia 3d drivers" in its install process, and then it gathers the files of an FTP server. ubuntu does not have this to my knowledge.


Yes, it does.
It is documented in the Ubuntu Guide:
sudo apt-get install nvidia-glx
sudo apt-get install nvidia-settings
sudo cp /etc/X11/xorg.conf /etc/X11/xorg.conf_backup
sudo nvidia-glx-config enableEnable the extra repositories (also in the guide)

This will also pull in Linux-restricted modules.

missmoondog
November 18th, 2005, 03:48 AM
mwillems has hit it dead on the head. besides linux not even being remotely close to ready for prime time, it is almost to the point of being rediculously stupid. i've spent this entire past week setting up my 5 machines originally with just ubuntu 5.04. i've gone though major leaps and bounds trying to get audio/video to work. i have actually succeeded on 4 of 5. working on #5 right now. it just won't get it. just like the other 4 machines, i follow some advice on here and it's either outdated or down or just flat out doesn't work. i have in the course of the week, reinstalled xp pro on everyone of my machines as it "works". none of the 5 upgrades i've tried to perform this week have went anywhere near smooth even either. i am not giving up on ubuntu, but i guess i'm forced to use an entire os just for web browsing and reading e-mail. i can't live without my scanners, which are not supported at all, have to have reliable cd burning, which isn't available in linux (unless you want to burn at some slow motion speed). i'm not afraid of the command line at all, but that is totally assinine. if i wanted to spend half a day typing in some bs hieroglyphics just to install something, i would've went to college to become an engineer!! not wanting a flame war either, as i guess i have to let off steam after playing with something all day that won't cooperate at all.

BoyOfDestiny
November 18th, 2005, 04:22 AM
mwillems has hit it dead on the head. besides linux not even being remotely close to ready for prime time, it is almost to the point of being rediculously stupid. i've spent this entire past week setting up my 5 machines originally with just ubuntu 5.04. i've gone though major leaps and bounds trying to get audio/video to work. i have actually succeeded on 4 of 5. working on #5 right now. it just won't get it. just like the other 4 machines, i follow some advice on here and it's either outdated or down or just flat out doesn't work. i have in the course of the week, reinstalled xp pro on everyone of my machines as it "works". none of the 5 upgrades i've tried to perform this week have went anywhere near smooth even either. i am not giving up on ubuntu, but i guess i'm forced to use an entire os just for web browsing and reading e-mail. i can't live without my scanners, which are not supported at all, have to have reliable cd burning, which isn't available in linux (unless you want to burn at some slow motion speed). i'm not afraid of the command line at all, but that is totally assinine. if i wanted to spend half a day typing in some bs hieroglyphics just to install something, i would've went to college to become an engineer!! not wanting a flame war either, as i guess i have to let off steam after playing with something all day that won't cooperate at all.

Stick with windows then. Linux works for me. Come back and try when dapper is ready.

EDIT: Why 5.04? That release is known to have sound problems. As for breezy, I run with all ALSA & killed ESD, I have an audigy2 and it lets me play many sounds at once. Try 5.10 at least. Complaining about an old version that may have bugs that have been fixed in the current release, is somewhat fruitless.

Sirin
November 18th, 2005, 08:20 AM
I must disagree that linux is not ready for prime-time. Ubuntu is ready - fc3 is ready, and probably many others. Just because a user has to lift a finger to enable, or download something does not mean the OS is not ready for the masses.

If it was ready for the masses, why would it require such knowledge for a user to use? If it is ready for new users, why would it require such compiling (a term that a newbie wouldn't even know) just to install an application? Why would it require the manual editing of a System File if most users haven't even heard of the Windows Registry?



Are you people kidding me -- how many windows users actually know what they are doing? How many of us reguarly help a friend/family member with their windows? I'm always helping someone -=- ususlly getting them out of a hole - because they had no idea what they were doing. Hell, most users I know can;t even tell me what browser they use...ahhh, browser?

Did you know that in my experience, that happens way more in Linux than Windows? This is a case of "Include the bad thing about them, but don't include the bad thing about you." Why did I have to help a user in installing Java, and it took me hours on doing it? Why did sound not work in Flash, and I had to do it? Why is there no updateable help center in Ubuntu? Why did I have to find a way to setup a dial-up connection for a newbie Warty user?



Just because linux (pick your distro, save the obvious windows wannabe's) is a real (?) computing environment doesn't make it "not ready for prime-time. Windows isn't ready for the masses, either, it just scares lazy dumb users less. Um - yeah, I said lazy and dumb users. Sorry, the shoe fits.

Well, just take the fact that I've never had to edit a SINGLE system file ONCE in my life using windows. ;)



As well, with windows you have the added bonus of having your computer hijacked by every a##hole out there with a penchant for writing a script.

".BIN" files are potential malware for Linux, keep that in mind. ;)



I could go on for hours about how long it takes to install, configure - then set up with apps.

Well, actually, nobody is stopping you. ;)



Sure, it took me a little while to get comfy, well actually it didn't - I was comfy from the get-go -- but it ltook me a little while to get used to the way linux is set up.

Well, some people have different experience levels with computers. The less the experience, the more the frustration and the more it takes to get things done.



I don't really mean to rag on any folks - really - but give it a rest -- linux is NOT windows.

On every thread I've seen concerning ease-of-use, this "Linux is not Windows" excuse is used. It may not be, but like Windows, it is an OS. It isn't easy because it "Isn't Windows"? One of the most pointless things I've ever seen. :???:


Not trying to flame Linux or it's community, just trying to get some points straight. ;)

DDaland
November 24th, 2005, 03:56 PM
Well, I'll Throw $.02 worth in here- As a relative "Newbie" I've found a lot of thing I like about Ubuntu, and a few things I dislike.
I like the relative ease of setup- I was "up and running" for the most part in 15-20 minutes for 95% of what I use a computer for.
I like the fact that it boots sooooo much faster than the same system in XP
I like several of the apps that come bundled with the basic setup- Open Office, etc
However, several things I really dislike-
While it only took 15-20 minutes for me to set things up in general (for 95% of my use), the last 5% drives a person nuts to try and figure out. And finding the answers can be a bit like a "Do it yourself Root Canal". Best example I can think of- I'm trying to figure out a problem using dial up and my LAN at the same time- so far, after several searches, all I've found is "You might have to disable the LAN in the Network Administration so you can use the modem" Ummm, what if I need to use the network printer to print a online page?
Installing devices- If its not available "right out of the box"- Brother, what a mess. This is not necessarily Ubuntu, or Debians, etc fault- all too many companys don't make a driver available for Linux. However, if they do offer a linux driver- then you have to dig, compile, etc, etc. Not the easiest thing for a "newbie" (like me) to try and figure out.
Software- While I like the software that came with Ubuntu- I might have needs that software doesn't fill. Good luck going to Best Buy, etc and finding a Linux version. In a lot of cases, you might find a roughly equal alternative, but then, you might not.

One thing I'd have to suggest- IMO this would stand a chance of making the hardware & Software companys at least consider offering up a linux alternative to Windows- Have the "open source " community get behind ONE version and standardize it. As it is now, its too confusing IMO to try and develop a package for each possible Distro, and Kernel, etc- but if parts like the Installer packages, etc were common for ALL Distros, etc, at least the comapnys would have a inducement to offer up a package for the Linux user, plus making it easier for the user

ygarl
November 24th, 2005, 04:44 PM
Well, MS does not have the patent on Address Books - true.
They DO however have the patent on THEIR format of address book, and their PST files they use to store email.
So basically, the only way to read these formats is to "reverse engineer" the 2 files - something expressly forbidden in the EULA that you have to click to use Outlook...

So to read the files, you have to knowingly commit illegal (unethical? Who can say) activities that you agreed not to do.

tseliot
November 24th, 2005, 05:07 PM
But it's not actually easy. Easy would be "click here to install". Took a bit of googling...

Try Automatix, that's easy: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=66563

etc
November 24th, 2005, 05:11 PM
All of you complaining about MP3 support can't grasp patents. It would leave Ubuntu open for lawsuits. It takes a few minutes to get MP3's working, and if you think MP3 support is so important out of the box, use Windows. If MP3 support in Ubuntu is what is holding back your son from using it, then Ubuntu isn't for him.

You are all looking for Windows in Ubuntu. If you think installing applications in Synaptic is harder than searching the net for your application and downloading it, then you are simply thinking in Windows terms here. Stop comparing Windows to Ubuntu, because they aren't the same thing, they are completely different systems. If it just working in Windows, then use Windows. Ubuntu isn't Windows, and it never will be.

Luggy
November 24th, 2005, 05:49 PM
You know, I do think it's rather funny how everyone who tries Ubuntu (or orther distros) gets upset as soon as they hit the slightest road block.
If sound or video doesn't work 'out of the box' they claim Ubuntu 'isn't ready yet' and go back to Windows. However they forget that you have to install all these drivers to get their hardware up and running properly for Windows.
Funny how that works.

It's also funny how people can blaim Linux for Microsofts problems.
"Oh I can't take the address book from Outlook (great choice in a mail client by the way) on my laptop (not really sure how that's supposed to work but ok). Why is Linux so stupid?"
The reason why you can't is because Microsoft wants to make it as difficult as possible for you to switch to anything that isn't there's. That way when it comes to doing 5minutes of actual work people will puss out and blaim Linux for it.

Brunellus
November 24th, 2005, 05:53 PM
You know, I do think it's rather funny how everyone who tries Ubuntu (or orther distros) gets upset as soon as they hit the slightest road block.
If sound or video doesn't work 'out of the box' they claim Ubuntu 'isn't ready yet' and go back to Windows. However they forget that you have to install all these drivers to get their hardware up and running properly for Windows.
Funny how that works.

It's also funny how people can blaim Linux for Microsofts problems.
"Oh I can't take the address book from Outlook (great choice in a mail client by the way) on my laptop (not really sure how that's supposed to work but ok). Why is Linux so stupid?"
The reason why you can't is because Microsoft wants to make it as difficult as possible for you to switch to anything that isn't there's. That way when it comes to doing 5minutes of actual work people will puss out and blaim Linux for it.
I agree with almost everything here...except Outlook. Outlook is *terrible*. I wish my firm would move away from outlook/exchange...the exchange servers are constantly crashing or in need of reboots.

kaamos
November 24th, 2005, 05:59 PM
"Oh I can't take the address book from Outlook (great choice in a mail client by the way) on my laptop (not really sure how that's supposed to work but ok).

Brunellus: sarcasm? :)

Sirin
November 24th, 2005, 06:17 PM
All of you complaining about MP3 support can't grasp patents. It would leave Ubuntu open for lawsuits. It takes a few minutes to get MP3's working, and if you think MP3 support is so important out of the box, use Windows.

Ahem, or Linspire, Mandriva, SuSe, Lycoris... ;)



You are all looking for Windows in Ubuntu. If you think installing applications in Synaptic is harder than searching the net for your application and downloading it, then you are simply thinking in Windows terms here.

On your synaptic vs Windows point, just about all Windows software can be found at the Windows Marketplace (http://windowsmarketplace.com/), thus, rendering your point, useless. ;)

By the way, what new user would want to use the command line with advanced commands just to install software (dpkg)? They like the two-click windows way where all you have to do is click on the icon two times, and the install assistants take you through the whole process. Can you explain how dpkg could be any easier than that?


Stop comparing Windows to Ubuntu, because they aren't the same thing, they are completely different systems. If it just working in Windows, then use Windows. Ubuntu isn't Windows, and it never will be.

Yes. No system restore, no disk cleanup, Disk having be the only way to upgrade, you must upgrade to a newer system every 6 months to get a later point release, you can't see your password when you type it in during install... Well, we could compare to the Mac OS X... but you won't like the results...

deNoobius
November 24th, 2005, 06:33 PM
It sounds to me like the OP could benefit, as I did, from Automatix, which automates the installation of many of the additional items and tweaks he can use. Just run it, do whatever, come back 20 minutes later and its all done.

As far as the music issue--what is so great about MP3s as a compression codec? It is not necessarily the best. If you're using iTunes, you're likely using AAC, and on Ubuntu you can use Ogg Vorbis out of the box. Both have better sound/bitrate than MP3, and both can find compatible portable players. I understand that many of the iRiver players support Ogg Vorbis.

As far as Outlook goes, Evolution is as good or better and comes with Ubuntu.

aysiu
November 24th, 2005, 06:53 PM
I don't know why this thread has been revived after half a year, but you all know where I stand on this issue (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=58017).