Driver Behind the Dell Support Forum

[ikonia]

I am aware of the Dell / Ubuntu cross-promotion/support agreements.

Could you explain why Dell get its own sub forum in general help though as surly this is not a hardware platform rather than just a PC vendor? and at present the dell hardware does not appear to be nativly supported with a Linux operating system, without additional tools such as ndiswrapper.

What is the driver behind this sub forum ?

[ubuntu-geek]

Because Canonical asked us to create one.

[mips]

I
What is the driver behind this sub forum ?

All related to how big your organisation is & how much marketing/hype you contribute.

A smaller vendor would not get the same exposure. It's not fair but thats life for you.

[ubuntu-geek]

All related to how big your organisation is & how much marketing/hype you contribute.

A smaller vendor would not get the same exposure. It's not fair but thats life for you.
Actually system76 as a forum here http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=158 any canonical partner can.

[southernman]

ubuntu-geek - correct me if I am wrong on this, please.

It isn't Dell that got it's own sub-forum, moreso than it is that Canonical did. To aid in handling support issues from users who bought the Dell/Ubuntu system. Just so happens that Dell is the vendor here.

I briefly browsed the forum and don't recall seeing anyone acting as a Dell representative. I forget the guys name, but he works directly for Canonical... correct?

[mips]

Actually system76 as a forum here http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=158 any canonical partner can.


Aware of the System76 one which is a sub-forum of the Third Party forum. Dell on the other hand gets front page. We are all equal, some just more so than others ;)

[ubuntu-geek]

If you guys are unhappy about it I will glady provide you the dell account manager at canonical if you wish to contact him..

[southernman]

If you guys are unhappy about it I will glady provide you the dell account manager at canonical if you wish to contact him..I think it's vital. Why would anyone care what Canonical does on their own (figuratively speaking of course) forums?

Perhaps a much smaller vendor with *cough* pencil envy *cough* - ;)

[mips]

I think it's vital. Why would anyone care what Canonical does on their own (figuratively speaking of course) forums?

Perhaps a much smaller vendor with *cough* pencil envy *cough* - ;)

These forums don't belong to Canonical, they belong to ubuntu-geek as far as I know. So I don't see the point in contacting Canonical as they are not the owner.

I'm not a vendor and I don't suffer from pencil envy. Just pointing out how things are handled differently for different people/companies ;)

[mips]

If you guys are unhappy about it I will glady provide you the dell account manager at canonical if you wish to contact him..

It's not so much being unhappy with it but more a thing about fairness & principal.

I suppose I could mail the individual but somehow I suspect it won't achieve much if anything.

[southernman]

These forums don't belong to Canonical, they belong to ubuntu-geek as far as I know. So I don't see the point in contacting Canonical as they are not the owner.

I'm not a vendor and I don't suffer from pencil envy. Just pointing out how things are handled differently for different people/companies ;)

I did say "figuratively speaking" as in not of the literal sense.
Mips, my bad! I should have made it clear that I was referring to the OP.

[mips]

I did say "figuratively speaking" as in not of the literal sense.
Mips, my bad! I should have made it clear that I was referring to the OP.

No problem, understood :) Maybe you were hinting at something ;)

[ikonia]

I'm not a vendor nor do I have pencil envy,

I'm asking a question with regard to the presenation and driver behind certain decisions on this forum.

I don't see why dell needs its own forum because

a.) Dell will not be providing any support other than hardware support as I read the deal so there is no "dell only" support requirments such as a propritary card for example.
b.) Dell components are standard PC components available to all, so why should issues with these components be in a "dell" forum.
c.) What benifit is taking problems with dell machines that are in effect no different to my and your machine out of the public view and support and into its own sub forum, its almost like having a "yellow pc forum" for all PC's with yellow cases.

It appears to the naked eye as a marketing tool or hype generator which is something ubuntu in my opinion doesn't need, it needs to focus on its community - not a big wallet/marketing exericise.

Why should the community who offer their time support a "dell" forum with its massive wallet.

[southernman]

I'm not a vendor nor do I have pencil envy,
My apologies in that case. I assumed (I know what they say about it) that you were a vendor and perhaps envious of the forum created on Canonical's behave to aid in supporting the Dell/Ubuntu product line.

I'm asking a question with regard to the presenation and driver behind certain decisions on this forum.

I don't see why dell needs its own forum because

a.) Dell will not be providing any support other than hardware support as I read the deal so there is no "dell only" support requirments such as a propritary card for example.
b.) Dell components are standard PC components available to all, so why should issues with these components be in a "dell" forum.
c.) What benifit is taking problems with dell machines that are in effect no different to my and your machine out of the public view and support and into its own sub forum, its almost like having a "yellow pc forum" for all PC's with yellow cases.

I agree somewhat here however:
IMO - Dell won't be here officially, although there may be some members of engineering team that do come in to help. Canonicals representative and other members (Dell product users or not) will be here providing additional support. Perhaps only a handful from out there ---> in the main support forums, will come in here to assist... *shrugs*

Canonical has apparently been very persistent in pursuing the PC giants, to aid in the advancement of Ubuntu in general, but in the whole scope of things... Linux and FLOSS. Then you still have that nagging need for proprietary codecs and such. I commend them for the efforts it must have taken to finally get this accomplished... not that you or others don't.

Dells tech support staff could never have been revamped/trained to support the OS side of things, in the 60 days they had to put this marriage into action. This is where Canonical comes in to support the software and sort out hardware issues that aren't in need of repair/replacement... while dell handles the hardware issues (e.g. repair and replacement). Dell could have wound up spending a large sum of money on warranty service, when in fact it would/would have been nothing more than software/hardware conflicts. To further Canonicals role here, the forum owner agreed to setup a sub forum. I say right on!


It appears to the naked eye as a marketing tool or hype generator which is something ubuntu in my opinion doesn't need, it needs to focus on its community - not a big wallet/marketing exericise.

IMO Ubuntu can always use the marketing tools and hype generators. How else would they expand their user base. It's just a normal part of progression for FLOSS in general. I wouldn't even begin to venture a guess on how much Mark Shuttleworth has spent on this endeavor. Not the Dell/Ubuntu thing, but the whole of Ubuntu alone. It's surely an astronomical amount.


Why should the community who offer their time support a "dell" forum with its massive wallet.

It is just a forum. The forum owner, Canonical, nor Dell can/has done anything to change anyones free will. It's each of our prerogative to help or not.

In addition, everyone has the right to question things... as we should! I am not looking to argue the point. You have one and are entitled to it. I just happen to think it's a good idea. At first, I was put off by your questioning of it. I now see your rational behind it. That doesn't mean I agree with the whole of it... just better understand it.

Thank you! :)

[ikonia]

I still can't see why dell support requires its own forum, as there is nothing dell specific to ask that can't be asked in the open forun,

I am also very dissapointed that this dell deal requires community support as its main support channel, so if your a dell owner you go into the dell forun ??? why whats different than the noraml forum, unless there is some difference between the dell forum content and the normal forum content that I'm missing, both are community so both should be equal.

this whole dell deal appears to be very pointless other than dell providing pre-installed machines, which looking at the other negatives (no care packs available on ubuntu support) seems rather pointless.

I'd like a lot more open information on this "deal" and how it effects the community.

[mifi]

c.) What benifit is taking problems with dell machines that are in effect no different to my and your machine out of the public view and support and into its own sub forum, its almost like having a "yellow pc forum" for all PC's with yellow cases.
Have you seen the discussions there? Many remarks and questions related to specific configurations with Dell product numbers.
I would not want the other forums to be clogged up by all that.

In it's short existence, the Dell forum has proven to be popular with enough members to have lively discussions. And that is what we do, is it not? Serve the community? As long as there are enough people that want to use it, why not?

Now, I would like to have a forum for Ubuntu users on boats (tongue in cheek).... :D

mifi

[ikonia]

I understand what your saying and to an extent I agree, but when you see a question

"how do I configured my graphics card on a dell $X system"

its really just

" how to I configure my ati graphics card"

for an example as there are no "dell" specific products.

Its almost like from where I am sitting giving dell owners their own little support group which is totally uncalled for and is asking a free commnunity to provide support for a comercial deal. Not really the open source spirit.

[PriceChild]

I don't see the problem here...

We all want Ubuntu to be successful don't we? Making a little Dell subforum is just making it that bit more welcoming to the new Dell users and will help them feel more comfortable and fit in.

Yes of course ikonia support for that forum will not have different answers than those of other forums, but the forum is there, deal with it basically. If they weren't to ask their (already answered in a million other places) question in that forum, they would either
1. Ask it in a different subforum anyway.
2. Give up and ditch Ubuntu, making us lose another hopefull who could have contributed.

[ikonia]

I don't have to "deal with it". I'm not asking for it to be removed or changed or moderated. There is nothing for me to deal with I'm raising a question/information request.


I'm just asking the question of what is the driver behind it which in part you've answered, and to some extent I see the point of, and you raise a very good point of the same question being asked in X other ammount of forums, which raises for me the question do we need or want another forum for which to ask the same question again ? I don't know or have an opinion on the answer to that to be honest.

The only part I potentially have a problem with is Canonical striking this deal (good on them for many reasons) but then dell don't actually support anything - and the Canonical support service is not offered to people buying dell PC's its fallen on the community to support this deal. (which in someways isn't a big deal as I've already suggested that the dell questions are the same as the non-dell questions.) But when Canonical stirke these deals then expect the commnuity to support it seems a tad unsporting.

However - with more info behind the reasons and the drivers behind this (such as the addition of the dell sub forum) it may be clearer and more obvious to understand.

eg: why ask the comnnuity's help in this while we negaotiate dell/Canonical support agreement, or dell havesaid they would get behind delivering X once they are confident that support exists in the community for dell users, that sort of thing.

As it currently looks

Canonical/Ubuntu/dell are reciving a massive ammount of hype for this deal which in essense
a.) removes dell support (try purchasing a carepack for an ubuntu dell PC)
b.) Canonical don't appear to be involved with supported dell users
c.) has not made a change to the price of dell pc's on the website
d.) has placed additional support requirments (visible - not actually) on the support community.

This is not a bashing thread, but a genuine ask for clarification and more detail, both short and long term.

[mifi]

"how do I configured my graphics card on a dell $X system"

its really just

" how to I configure my ati graphics card"

Very true.


for an example as there are no "dell" specific products.

But there are Dell specific configurations. Nevertheless, you are right on your first point.

Its almost like from where I am sitting giving dell owners their own little support group which is totally uncalled for ...
I respectfully disagree with you there. Judging from the traffic, it is called for.
And you would not be supporting Dell, but the users that have bought one.

However, if anyone feels he does not want to support users on Dell's, that's fine with me. Do not wander into that forum then.
For me it is perfectly ok if Dell users want to support eachother. And anyone else who wants to join in.

That said, I do believe all of us are better off with the Dell forum. Here is my reasoning:

I hope the step towards Ubuntu that Dell has taken will bring in many users who would previously not have considered Linux. For the sake of this discussion, let's call them "new users".
This would create a much wider acceptance and interest. The world will be a better place, because thirdparty software and hardware vendors will realise it is important to support Linux systems.

But we should be aware of the fact that this new group of users will have a different support need than those who were running Ubuntu before and regardless of Dell's support. I would not like to see the other forums to be cluttered up too much by questions of this new breed of "new users". Traffic is high enough as it is.

Therefore I think it is a good idea to let the "new users" grow in the Dell forum before they "spill over" into the other forums. Let them adjust a little to their new surroundings...

On a different note: I think the amount of traffic in the other groups is a little overwhelming. It does take quite a bit of time to find articles from which to teach or learn.
I do not have a clue on a solution to that, tho.

mifi

[PriceChild]

Dell/Canonical both requested the subforum afaik, I don't know the details. - and the Canonical support service is not offered to people buying dell PC's its fallen on the community to support this deal. (which in someways isn't a big deal as I've already suggested that the dell questions are the same as the non-dell questions.) But when Canonical stirke these deals then expect the commnuity to support it seems a tad unsporting.

*snip*

b.) Canonical don't appear to be involved with supported dell users
c.) has not made a change to the price of dell pc's on the website
d.) has placed additional support requirments (visible - not actually) on the support community.

start/b ) Two Canonical support plans are offered to the purchasers of these Dell systems while they choose their system's specs.
c ) The Dell/Ubuntu pcs are $50-$100 cheaper aren't they?
d ) We're getting more people in... and you think that's a bad thing? I have no doubt that some of these new users will contribute back and I have open arms to them all.

[ikonia]

Dell/Canonical both requested the subforum afaik, I don't know the details.

fair enough, thats something I'd be interested in hearing a "little" more about the driver behind, for the negative "looking" reasons I mentioned earlier.


Two Canonical support plans are offered to the purchasers of these Dell systems while they choose their system's specs


Is that a new addition, as that wasn't an option when I walked through a test checkout. If it is new, this is the sort of thing that would be benifical to make more public such as a sticky in the dell support forums, which would also remove my gripe about non-dell specific information.

I've not seen any price differences in the PC's yet. That may well change though.


The Dell/Ubuntu pcs are $50-$100 cheaper aren't they?


not seen any price difference yet.



We're getting more people in... and you think that's a bad thing? I have no doubt that some of these new users will contribute back and I have open arms to them all.


There is no debate on that fact, I agree %100 on that.

[mips]

Dell/Canonical both requested the subforum afaik, I don't know the details.


Nothing wrong with that but why aren't they in the "Third Party" forum like System76 for example.

With the rationale put forward so far every distributor that preloads ubuntu and asks for a forum should have it in the main forum then ?

[PriceChild]

What follows may not be my opinion,Nothing wrong with that but why aren't they in the "Third Party" forum like System76 for example.I was about to say "but system76 hasn't made a business partnership/deal with Canonical/Ubuntu have they?" and then I noticed http://www.ubuntu.com/partners/findapartner

I think this thread is just petty. We all know the reason why Dell got their own subforum here... because they and Canonical asked for it. Why did they get it on the front page? I assume because they asked for that too.

The subforum is getting use already and it hasn't hurt anyone so far.

[mifi]

Nothing wrong with that but why aren't they in the "Third Party" forum like System76 for example.
Good question.

With the rationale put forward so far every distributor that preloads ubuntu and asks for a forum should have it in the main forum then ?
Why does everybody pretend Dell is just like any other vendor? They are not. Dell is for the masses. The largest PC vendor in the world as far as I know.

I see no reason to treat all vendors alike if they are not alike.

Dell is selling to the average user. If the average user is going to be interested to stay on Ubuntu, the community has to reach out for them. It is in our best interest to do so.

As far as I am concerned, HP/Compaq are welcome with a separate forum too, once they start shipping PC's with Ubuntu preinstalled.

mifi

[mips]

I think this thread is just petty.

Well if you think principals are petty then so be it. I will be silent now.

[skirkpatrick]

...
The only part I potentially have a problem with is Canonical striking this deal (good on them for many reasons) but then dell don't actually support anything - and the Canonical support service is not offered to people buying dell PC's its fallen on the community to support this deal. (which in someways isn't a big deal as I've already suggested that the dell questions are the same as the non-dell questions.) But when Canonical stirke these deals then expect the commnuity to support it seems a tad unsporting.
...


Well, my opinion is that for as much as Canonical has given to the community with Ubuntu, helping support new users is a pittance.

[ikonia]

Perhaps I've not been clear here, as a few people seem to believe this is "negative" thread, which I suppose in some ways it does have the potential to be viewed that way.

Firstly, I have no problem supporting the new dell users in the same way I have no problem supporting any user - and that is partly my point, why is supporting dell users any different than non-dell users in terms of there is no dell specific hardware or support requirements.

Now that said, I appriciate that there is a marketing driver behind this in that dell want to be publicly associated with Linux in the same way as Linux or in this case ubuntu wants to be partnered with a big name vendor like dell. Again zero problem with that.

What I am questioining is, and I was trying to use the creation of the sub forum as an example, is this just a marketing campaign, as Pricechild said, "we all know the reason" but is that really the only reason or is there more afoot, is there a planned support group, do dell plan to start putting in specialist Linux compatible components, is the forum going to be used to work with dell to remove problem compoents and replace with better supported ones (long term goals etc). This dell ubuntu deal appears to have just well, appeared with lots of hype, but also lots of what appears to my naked eye, rushed through progress eg: here is a dell forum - damn we have no-one to support it, don't worry let let the commnunity pick it up, when I'm hoping there is more to the driver behind it than just community support. But as there is no details floating around, I'm asking, is it just a marketing thing or is there more to it.

[southernman]

Perhaps I've not been clear here, as a few people seem to believe this is "negative" thread, which I suppose in some ways it does have the potential to be viewed that way.

Firstly, I have no problem supporting the new dell users in the same way I have no problem supporting any user - and that is partly my point, why is supporting dell users any different than non-dell users in terms of there is no dell specific hardware or support requirements.

Now that said, I appriciate that there is a marketing driver behind this in that dell want to be publicly associated with Linux in the same way as Linux or in this case ubuntu wants to be partnered with a big name vendor like dell. Again zero problem with that.

What I am questioining is, and I was trying to use the creation of the sub forum as an example, is this just a marketing campaign, as Pricechild said, "we all know the reason" but is that really the only reason or is there more afoot, is there a planned support group, do dell plan to start putting in specialist Linux compatible components, is the forum going to be used to work with dell to remove problem compoents and replace with better supported ones (long term goals etc). This dell ubuntu deal appears to have just well, appeared with lots of hype, but also lots of what appears to my naked eye, rushed through progress eg: here is a dell forum - damn we have no-one to support it, don't worry let let the commnunity pick it up, when I'm hoping there is more to the driver behind it than just community support. But as there is no details floating around, I'm asking, is it just a marketing thing or is there more to it.

With that said, your not going to get the kind of answer your looking for, from this community... period. Even if you were to email/pm ubuntu-geek asking him this very thing in a very forthright manner (concise), I don't feel even he would be at liberty to discuss it with you.

As ubuntu-geek offered earlier in this thread, he can put you in touch with Canonicals representative. Even still, I don't feel they will be at liberty to discuss in much detail about this what your asking. Face it, that info (what your suggesting toward the end of the above quote) is only something you/we/anyone outside of Canonical/Dell will never be privy to.

Information would likely be provided, but on a "need to know" basis only. Good, bad, or indifferent - that is just how it is.

[Artificial Intelligence]

Geez....Can't understand why some people will get upset about it. Maybe in the near future when Dell sells millions of computers with Linux/ubuntu on they will be providing their own support group. But one step at the time, my dear folks.