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BoyOfDestiny
September 30th, 2005, 11:42 AM
Oh, yeah, synaptic is not an English word! is a name;
It could have been: "Yaron's package manager", or "Bulebule package managar"
(like winamp music player - winamp is not a word..)
Tomer
from webster's:
synaptic
Function: adjective
Etymology: New Latin synapsis
1 : of or relating to a synapsis
2 : of or relating to a synapse
Yes, the name really has nothing to do with what it is.
If you try breezy (or are using it), they have something called Add/Remove Programs (the name is a bit boring)
It is a very friendly way to add apps, categorized, with icons and descriptions.
Anyway good luck with Ubuntu, it is still developing and I think will improve for everyone (regardless of language).

Brunellus
September 30th, 2005, 03:16 PM
1.) Please see aysiu's excellent "anatomy of a well-intentioned troll" post, stickied above in this forum. See also the rest of aysiu's excellent essays that address your concerns in general terms.

2.) Linux is NOT Windows. You would complain equally bitterly about the difference in interface between Windows and Apple OSX. I complain all the time about how 'standard' interface things in Linux are not available in Windows (yet?): a decent commandline, meaningful middle-clicking, virtual consoles, etc. All of these things I have come to expect from my computer, but Windows won't deliver them. I adapt.

3.) Even though this is a very friendly community, expect a fair quota of flames to go your way.

4.) Localization support is constantly under development--I beleive there is a Hebrew localization team...you might want to get in touch with them.

5.) Don't sweat the program names. How am I supposed to know that PowerPoint is about presentations, or Excel about spreadsheets, for that matter?

6.) Ubuntu is, in my opinion, primarily an install CD with a serviceable liveCD. If you want a live cd, use SLAX.

aysiu
September 30th, 2005, 04:09 PM
Please see aysiu's excellent "anatomy of a well-intentioned troll" post, stickied above in this forum. See also the rest of aysiu's excellent essays that address your concerns in general terms. I'd personally recommend Is Ubuntu for you? (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=63315)

I'll just say something in quick response, though--it's difficult to install and configure any operating system. Mac and Windows are usually preinstalled and preconfigured, which is why they seem easy. And most of the problems you are encountering are installation and configuration problems.

bob_c_b
September 30th, 2005, 04:18 PM
I'll just say something in quick response, though--it's difficult to install and configure any operating system. Mac and Windows are usually preinstalled and preconfigured, which is why they seem easy.

People don't realize how true this is. Many people confuse launching the restore program from their start menu on an HP home PC as "installing Wnidows" and that doesn't come close to the reality. I think as many people have pointed out around here, Linux isn't hard but it does require more effort than many people are willing to put in. The simplicity (if you can call it that) of Windows has it's own price, but all Linux cost is the willingness to learn and accept that the experience will be different.

rjwood
September 30th, 2005, 04:34 PM
would have, could have, should have.............Well it's not a perfect world. If it was you would not have anything to say. Life is only as difficult as you make it. Jump in and have some fun. Ubuntu is for Human beings not robots who point and click. So, you see you have it backwards. :):):):)

mstlyevil
September 30th, 2005, 04:54 PM
Most people have never installed Windows on a blank slate computer they built from scratch. Yaron most likely never has experienced this joy of installing Windows and then trouble shooting driver conflicts, bios problems, BSOD problems, not to mention Windows does not play dvd's natively out of the box so you have to install a dvd player then you have to install ativirus and firewall. You then have to go and disable all the uneeded services that suck up resources and the list goes on and on. When you buy a pc this is already done from the factory and if you use the recovery disk, it only restores original factory settings. Ubuntu is no harder to set up than Windows is if doing it from scratch.

Maggot
September 30th, 2005, 04:56 PM
Personally I don't give a crap if Ubuntu "is for human beings" or whatever. I use Ubuntu because it's a good distro. Period.

poofyhairguy
September 30th, 2005, 05:42 PM
1. Ubuntu didn't mount my partitions automatically - any other live-cd dos!

Its Linux for human beings, not Linux for Windows refugees. Plus you can do that with the upcomming Breezy installer.



2. Whey did I need to wrecked my brines out to find a way to reclaim privileges on my, yes, my HD!!!
(IRC Ubuntu instructed me to use a script that fixed it)

Our Ubuntuguide is a great resource for that.



3. As a Linux newbie, whey did I have to edit xorg.conf, to be able to see more then blinding 60Hz
refresh rate & more then 1024 desktop resolution ? (I use a standard MAG CRT Display)

Because there are over one billion monitor/video card/motherboard combinations possible and its impossible for Ubuntu to make them all work. Personally, when I installed Warty, it gave me the highest resolution my monitor could take "out of the box."

It would be nice if there was a way to edit xorg with a GUI, maybe for Dapper.



4. And if it's sp humane, why when I selected my regional setting to "Jerusalem"
Did it not make any attempt to ask me if I may want to install Hebrew?
(Which I need to be stated, was easy to do so after installation)

I think this is fixed in Breezy. Hoary was only a second release. Windows second release was 3.1. Big difference.



5. After Installing Hebrew I hade to wrecked my brines out, yet again!
To figure how to switch batwing layouts, whey did it not add the layout change panel
itself when I add Hebrew, or hade en option to do so directly From the Adding Languages Panel
itself, a small v-box would have done the trick!
Not to mention how I found out the shortcut that switched the layout,
A windows user would have never guessed it! Ctrl+Alt+Alt.

A windows user will never install Ubuntu and be confortable out of the box unless they want to be.



6. What the hell is a "Synaptic Package Manager"?
I'm not from en English Speaking Country, how the hell I should I
Know what "Synaptic" is?! (Yah, any old human would, right?!)

I speak English and its gibberish to me. Does not matter, Breezy will have a different tool to install programs.

PS: Developers do not the read the forum. If you have problems please report them to bugzilla instead!

crispingatiesa
September 30th, 2005, 06:29 PM
I dont know the meaning of Synaptic. But I don't know the meaning of Excel either. Doesn't prevent me from using either.


Synaptic is the link between neurons (brain cells). The synapse is the large octupuss like arms that spand from the center of the cell and that serve as bridges between neuron to exchange info.

Muhammad
September 30th, 2005, 06:37 PM
Hello good neighbor down the south...

The answer to all your questions is simple, Linux is not Windows and Windows is not Linux.

aysiu
September 30th, 2005, 08:20 PM
Sometimes people, especially frustrated newcomers, twist the Ubuntu slogan "Linux for Human Beings" to mean "Linux that can be installed on any machine configuration in the world and work perfectly right away without any configuring."

There are a few problems with this misinterpretation of the slogan.

First of all, slogans in general are not meant to be taken literally, and they are often exaggerations. Take, for example, the US Army's slogan, "Be all that you can be." Taken literally, it implies that you have to join the US Army in order to maximize your full potential as a person. This is obviously not true. Think about it. The phrase "Linux for Human Beings" taken literally means nothing because cats, deer ticks, amoeba, and aliens probably do not use Linux (no smarmy remarks about this, please) or any operating system. The idea of a Linux "for human beings" pokes fun at the perception of common folk that only nerds (who are not human beings?) can use Linux. It does not, however, advertise itself as "Linux for idiots" or "Linux for the computer illiterate."

The second problem with the misinterpretation of Ubuntu's slogan is the assumption that any installation of an operating system can ever be expected to be easy (sometimes installations are easy--my Ubuntu installation was--but no one should expect one to be). People who buy computers with Windows pre-installed or who use a Windows "restore" CD to "reinstall" Windows don't realize how much of a pain it is to install and configure Windows on a machine that was not designed for it and tested by a major manufacturer like Dell or HP (who both, by the way, recently announced they're going to start selling some preinstalled Linux computers... Mandriva for Dell and Ubuntu for HP). If you think you're going to pop any Windows or Linux CD (even Linspire) on any computer and everything will "just work" out of the box, you may be in for a big surprise.

To those who have never installed an operating system before, be prepared for the worst. You may be pleasantly surprised at how smoothly it goes, but it's better to think you'll encounter problems and not face many than to think it'll all be smooth as butter and then complain when things go wrong.

The last objection I have to the twisting of the "for human beings" slogan has to do with user expectations. You can't expect a Linux distribution that prides itself on including only free software (and by "free" I mean both "free of cost" free and "general public license" free) to "just work" with RealPlayer media, MP3s, or commercial DVDs. By definition, Ubuntu will not immediately work with these things. If those things are important to you to "just work" without any configuring, I'd advise you to use Mepis, Blag, or Linspire.

What makes Ubuntu so special is that it's not under the restrictions of proprietary software and it is totally cost free, making it available to a much wider audience. Canonical will even ship CDs worldwide and pay not only for the cost of the CD but the cost of shipping as well. The "human" factor is partially Ubuntu's transcendence of class and income level (the only thing you need is a CD-ROM drive) more than any other operating system out there; it's also Ubuntu's freedom from digital rights management and control from outside corporations over the user.

The community here, which I have found no parallel to, also helps to make Ubuntu for "human beings." The people are supportive, warm, and responsive. Try getting that from Microsoft.

For more info on whether Ubuntu is for you, please read this thread (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=63315).

Edit (9 October 2005): It just occurred to me that "for human beings" might not mean necessarily "for homo sapiens." It may mean "for beings that are human." I'm thinking one of the dictionary definitions of the word human: Having or showing those positive aspects of nature and character regarded as distinguishing humans from other animals: an act of human kindness. On the Ubuntu main page (http://www.ubuntulinux.org/), one of the first things you read is "Ubuntu" is an ancient African word, meaning "humanity to others". Ubuntu also means "I am what I am because of who we all are". The Ubuntu Linux distribution brings the spirit of Ubuntu to the software world. That means that it's mainly about humanity, a spirit or attitude, not about biological taxonomy.

Edit (5 July 2009): Well, almost four years later, Dell and HP are selling Linux, but both are selling Ubuntu, and on netbooks, which didn't even exist when I originally wrote this post. Linspire is now dead, and Blag no longer includes proprietary codecs, I think.

KingBahamut
September 30th, 2005, 08:24 PM
For Human Beings.....
To appeal to a larger group not contrained by race, religion, national origin, faith or belief, sexual orientation, financial status...or some form otherwise.
But rather to appeal to the basest form of what we are. Human.
Humanity amongst Homo Sapiens is something undeniable , unseperatable.

poofyhairguy
September 30th, 2005, 08:25 PM
Yet another great write up. Amazing. This is my pet peave so....

Personally, the thing that gets me the most is when people think:

"For human beings"= "For Ex-Windows Users"

when everything Mark is trying to do with Ubuntu in his native country implies that he wants Ubuntu to work in areas where Windows can't/won't.

KingBahamut
September 30th, 2005, 08:27 PM
Poofy, I couldnt aggree more.

darkmatter
September 30th, 2005, 08:28 PM
For Human Beings.....
To appeal to a larger group not contrained by race, religion, national origin, faith or belief, sexual orientation, financial status...or some form otherwise.
But rather to appeal to the basest form of what we are. Human.
Humanity amongst Homo Sapiens is something undeniable , unseperatable.

Well said.

aysiu
September 30th, 2005, 08:29 PM
Personally, the thing that gets me the most is when people think:
"For human beings"= "For Ex-Windows Users"
when everything Mark is trying to do with Ubuntu in his native country implies that he wants Ubuntu to work in areas where Windows can't/won't. I think a lot of people who fit into my demographic (upper-middle-class, college-educated American with broadband internet access and lots of Windows experience) are self-centered and assume all computer users in the world must be like them.

KingBahamut
September 30th, 2005, 08:33 PM
That rationale, while detestable on so many levels its not funny, is alot more widespread than that I think ays. There are an entire generation of children that are growing up being raised by such people to believe the same thing. This is largely how belief systems in faith , for example, are built. What I find even more detestable than your examination is based on the same rationale. There is an entire generation of people, actually 2 of them, that are growing up believing that x86 is how computers work. This view while widespread, is a narrow and almost retarded view of how computers work.

poofyhairguy
September 30th, 2005, 08:34 PM
I think a lot of people who fit into my demographic (upper-middle-class, college-educated American with broadband internet access and lots of Windows experience) are self-centered and assume all computer users in the world must be like them.

Or worse, that an OS must appeal to their needs to be successful.

I have said it once an I will say it again: most of the people in the world lack a computer. If they ever get their hands on one, Ubuntu is made with them in mind!

KingBahamut
September 30th, 2005, 08:35 PM
See above comment Poofy.

aysiu
September 30th, 2005, 08:38 PM
Or worse, that an OS must appeal to their needs to be successful.
I have said it once an I will say it again: most of the people in the world lack a computer. If they ever get their hands on one, Ubuntu is made with them in mind! I just read in the news recently about how MIT is working on a $100 laptop for Brazil and other places and guess what operating system it's going to use (hint: not Windows). In some of the articles I read, they were murmurings that for certain governments, $100 would even be considered too costly.

poofyhairguy
September 30th, 2005, 08:38 PM
There is an entire generation of people, actually 2 of them, that are growing up believing that x86 is how computers work.


Its worse than that. They think Windows is how a computer works.

aysiu
September 30th, 2005, 08:43 PM
Its worse than that. They think Windows is how a computer works. That's why a lot of Windows users call Macs Macs and call Windows PCs. Macs are PCs as well (doesn't PC stand for personal computer?), but to many Windows = PC, just as Kleenex = tissue.

aysiu
September 30th, 2005, 08:51 PM
You're in luck, Yaron. I wrote something just for you (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=70603).

Stormy Eyes
September 30th, 2005, 08:58 PM
Think about it. The phrase "Linux for Human Beings" taken literally means nothing because cats, deer ticks, amoeba, and aliens probably do not use Linux (no smarmy remarks about this, please) or any operating system.

*meow!* I resent that remark. *meow!*

Stormy Eyes
September 30th, 2005, 08:59 PM
Yaron, if you want a really good LiveCD distro, use Knoppix (http://www.knopper.net). I don't know if its Hebrew support is any good, but Knoppix (not Ubuntu) is the LiveCD I use when I need a LiveCD.

aysiu
September 30th, 2005, 09:00 PM
*meow!* I resent that remark. *meow!* I said no smarmy remarks, but I knew someone would make some kind of crack. I did try to get my cat to use Ubuntu, but he likes sniffing the keyboard more than actually typing anything on it!

aysiu
September 30th, 2005, 09:01 PM
Yaron, if you want a really good LiveCD distro, use Knoppix (http://www.knopper.net). I don't know if its Hebrew support is any good, but Knoppix (not Ubuntu) is the LiveCD I use when I need a LiveCD. Mepis isn't too shabby, either. Though, in all fairness, Mepis is Knoppix-based.

darkmatter
September 30th, 2005, 09:15 PM
I did try to get my cat to use Ubuntu, but he likes sniffing the keyboard more than actually typing anything on it!

Funny. A friends dog keeps trying to use my Ubuntu box, but I won't let her.

aysiu
September 30th, 2005, 09:29 PM
Funny. A friends dog keeps trying to use my Ubuntu box, but I won't let her. Yeah, just wave your index finger at her, and say "Silly dog. Ubuntu is Linux for human beings."

Ibuntu_52
September 30th, 2005, 10:24 PM
I haven't read the entire post but for the most part i do agree with the author.Linux does need a little bit more user freindlyness before it can truly go mainstream.If it had that computer vendors would have no priblem shipping computers with linux as an OS.

I do think that linux should go mainstream even though i enjoy the 1337ness of using it.It would really be a step forward in the progress of mankind.Seriously.Think about it an Os made by many different races and creeds as a worldwide community to benefit humanity.

this is what I feel Linux is truly about

primeirocrime
September 30th, 2005, 10:26 PM
I really dislike when people complain about everything. I'm not anglo-saxonic, and neither is the word synaptic in it's origin, so no point there.

Any doubt whatsoever is addressed by everyone in this community with pleasure, so there is no need to put down Ubuntu marketing efforts. It uis really for human beings as every other OS out there, although very few of them have true humanistic goals.

Ubuntu is very good not because it is perfect but because people care about it to work for everyone, that is why this forum exists.

Sure it has flaws, mine are constanly being worked on as I also try to work on others problems. If I can give back I will give back, that is what, in my opinion Ubuntu, linux for human beings is.

And Ubuntu is also a very powerful concept, just check it on wikipedia you will be amazed.

aysiu
September 30th, 2005, 10:43 PM
Linux does need a little bit more user freindlyness before it can truly go mainstream.If it had that computer vendors would have no priblem shipping computers with linux as an OS. You've got the chicken and the egg mixed up here. It's not because Linux lacks "user friendliness" that mainstream vendors don't ship it. It's because mainstream vendors don't ship it (and install it for you and configure it for you) that ex-Windows users perceive Linux to be user "unfriendly."

You may be interested in these two links:

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&q=dell+mandriva&btnG=Google+Search&sa=N&tab=wn
http://news.google.com/news?num=100&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&q=ubuntu+hp&btnG=Search&sa=N&tab=wn

kleeman
September 30th, 2005, 10:46 PM
Synaptic is actually Brazilian in origin:

http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=6734

(Part of Mandriva now)

darkmatter
September 30th, 2005, 11:08 PM
You've got the chicken and the egg mixed up here. It's not because Linux lacks "user friendliness" that mainstream vendors don't ship it. It's because mainstream vendors don't ship it (and install it for you and configure it for you) that ex-Windows users perceive Linux to be user "unfriendly."

aysiu strikes again.;)

(And hits the mark, as usual)

BWF89
September 30th, 2005, 11:24 PM
I don't like the slogan "Linux for human beings". It sounds too weird. If I handed someone a Ubuntu ShipIt CD and they read the "Linux for human beings" text on the front they would probably think "Well who else besides humans living on Earth would be useing it?"

A better slogan would be "Linux for regular people" or "Linux for the masses" because that is what Ubuntu is aimed at. Not the programmer or the person who likes to fiddle around with settings but the regular joe smoe person who just wants his computer to work right.

poofyhairguy
September 30th, 2005, 11:27 PM
I don't like the slogan "Linux for human beings". It sounds too weird. If I handed someone a Ubuntu ShipIt CD and they read the "Linux for human beings" text on the front they would probably think "Well who else besides humans living on Earth would be useing it?"

Sometimes being non specific is a good thing. As it is, we can say "its free so its for everyone."



A better slogan would be "Linux for regular people" or "Linux for the masses" because that is what Ubuntu is aimed at. Not the programmer or the person who likes to fiddle around with settings but the regular joe smoe person who just wants his computer to work right.

Gosh. I can't even imagine the level of trolling we would see if Ubuntu claimed to be that!

Kyral
September 30th, 2005, 11:46 PM
To me, "for human beings" clearly defines something. A few things really. One is the fact that right now, Ubuntu is one of the easiest to use Distros around. And by easy to use, I don't mean its going to work out of the box (it would be boring otherwise). I mean that its easy to learn how to use. I have a guy in our COSI (Clarkson Open Source Institute) who knows NOTHING about Linux, but he wanted to install Ubuntu on his laptop so he could learn. After fighting with Partition Magic, the Breezy installer loaded up and almost everything was configured. On the way back to the dorm I explained a few things, like what X was, and the importance of learning the command line (I don't care what GUI fans say, some things are just done faster and easier via a command line). I tried to "de-horrify" the command line for him, and also explained how you could make Ubuntu, and Linux by extension, anything you want (Face it, there are some pretty AWESOME desktop designs out there).

Thats my second interpretation of "for Human Beings". You can do whatever you want with Linux with varible degrees of difficulty. You don't like GNOME, use KDE, don't like KDE, use XFCE, etc. I have never found two Linux systems that are the same (Lab Builds are excluded, even then people have customized them).

The third interpretation is one that applies to the Ubuntu Community. As asyiu said, the community here is unrivaled by the amount of raw support here. Truly there is no such thing as a stupid question here.

So rock on Ubuntu!

dcraven
October 1st, 2005, 12:16 AM
My interpretation of the slogan is that it is for everyone in terms of availability. Everyone can afford it (assuming that have hardware). If you don't like it, everyone can, in the sense of permission, change it. If you don't want it, you can toss it. Everyone is free to do anything they want with it, with no obligation or strings attached.

I also see the slogan to be sort of a spoof on non-free Linux distrobutions and other commercial software. It's not "Linux for Money" or "Linux for Vendor Lockin" or "Linux for Owning Your Data So We Can Decide What, Where, Who, and How You View It". Instead, Ubuntu is made simply for you, the human being. It's kind of refreshing. It doesn't claim to be the flashiest, bestest, designed by NASA, blow you away answer for everything. But it is made for you, if you want to use it. Not only that, but its sole guaruntee is that it will remain that way forever.

Cheers,
~djc

poofyhairguy
October 1st, 2005, 12:21 AM
My interpretation of the slogan is that it is for everyone in terms of availability. Everyone can afford it (assuming that have hardware). If you don't like it, everyone can, in the sense of permission, change it. If you don't want it, you can toss it. Everyone is free to do anything they want with it, with no obligation or strings attached.

I think this is the best answer. Good job.

dcraven
October 1st, 2005, 12:25 AM
I'd have to say that if those are the biggest annoyances you have after installing, then we are already there!

Congrats Ubuntu,
~djc

23meg
October 1st, 2005, 12:38 AM
my interpretation of the slogan is that it implies that Linux isn't normally intended for "human beings", but that Ubuntu is. that it makes something for lay people out of something that is normally "for uber-geeks", or to use the same terminology, "non-humans". thus i've always found the slogan politically incorrect. actually i find many other things about Ubuntu's PR quite eclecticist and incorrect in this sense, but that deserves another thread of its own.. maybe later.

webwizard
October 1st, 2005, 12:59 AM
i will agree the linux os is a nice system the only thing i agree does need more work is the problem of installing programs :rolleyes: instead of via terminal not everyone who installs linux is a computer guru [however] it is a free os i like the update features of it and package instalation
i play mp3s and finding a player was a major pain;) but i finally installed xmms and its rockin
i like the graphics of ubuntu i wish they would support my dual radon 700 but what thu hey :D
i guess over time they will add better support for program instalation [but your right it beats the heck outta bill gates junk]:rolleyes: JUST MY 2 CENTS WORTH

DancingSun
October 1st, 2005, 02:04 AM
aysiu strikes again.;)
(And hits the mark, as usual)
Not entirely. The only computer that I own and haven't installed Windows on manually is my first computer. And I have to say Windows2K and later really makes everything much easier. Linux requires too many low-level configuration and command line usage to be user-friendly to a casual computer user. Hardware, multimedia support, and the lack of commercial software is probably Linux's biggest weakness in tackling the mainstream market.

If I'm never going to use cutting edge hardware for my computer and never going to install additional software, then Ubuntu seems to fit the bill just right. It just runs out-of-the-box. Although the sound issue on Hoary really is a let down.

But if I want to install software that is not in the repositories, I'll need to get low down and dirty. If I want to use Ubuntu on my brand new ATI, motherboard, I'll probably need to compile a custom Linux kernel.

urbandryad
October 1st, 2005, 02:07 AM
don't know. As a newbie Linux user, I've been frustrated by the whole learning curve. I'm willing to try learning terminal and command only because I hand write my own HTML and CSS files so I'm not scared of code. but it could be a little more friendly.

My friend put it quite easily when I asked him. Direct quote:

"Absolute control? Check. Intuitiveness? ********."

eheh

darkmatter
October 1st, 2005, 02:25 AM
Not entirely. The only computer that I own and haven't installed Windows on manually is my first computer. And I have to say Windows2K and later really makes everything much easier. Linux requires too many low-level configuration and command line usage to be user-friendly to a casual computer user. Hardware, multimedia support, and the lack of commercial software is probably Linux's biggest weakness in tackling the mainstream market.

I can argue that Windows requires just as much configuration (read: what the heck were they smoking when they set the defaults???), but the casual user wouldn't realize that, so point taken...

Multimedia is an old arguement, and we all know the reasoning as to why it's an issue. As for hardware, and commercial software. An equal (if not greater) responsibility is on the vendors for increased support for Linux.

urbandryad
October 1st, 2005, 02:36 AM
Multimedia is an old arguement, and we all know the reasoning as to why it's an issue. As for hardware, and commercial software. An equal (if not greater) responsibility is on the vendors for increased support for Linux.

I don't mind that I can't use MP3s with my Linux by default, I just wish iPod supported OGG files, all my problems would be solved! :D

Um, question. HOW much bigger than OGG and MP3 files are WAV files? :( Since WAV is supported, and I can rip to WAV files with Juicer, (which takes forever. ^^)

In case I never get true MP3 ability going in Linux. :rolleyes: Can you tell I'm a bit of a computer pessimist? XD

Mustard
October 1st, 2005, 02:59 AM
I don't mind that I can't use MP3s with my Linux by default, I just wish iPod supported OGG files, all my problems would be solved! :D
Um, question. HOW much bigger than OGG and MP3 files are WAV files? :( Since WAV is supported, and I can rip to WAV files with Juicer, (which takes forever. ^^)
In case I never get true MP3 ability going in Linux. :rolleyes: Can you tell I'm a bit of a computer pessimist? XD

,wav files are signifigantly bigger, so its not really a great option.

PsyberOneZero
October 1st, 2005, 03:13 AM
The only safe way to run windows. With 5.5 out i can finally ditch a windows partiton but still access the few programs I need, If they brought down the price a little bit ($99 area) I think more windows users would get the courage to try something new (better)

DancingSun
October 1st, 2005, 03:28 AM
I don't mind that I can't use MP3s with my Linux by default, I just wish iPod supported OGG files, all my problems would be solved! :D
Um, question. HOW much bigger than OGG and MP3 files are WAV files? :( Since WAV is supported, and I can rip to WAV files with Juicer, (which takes forever. ^^)
In case I never get true MP3 ability going in Linux. :rolleyes: Can you tell I'm a bit of a computer pessimist? XD
Wave files are largely uncompressed raw audio files. That means they are humongous in size, but uncompressed wave files retain audio quality of the source. Usually, they are used for audio editing.

oddflux
October 1st, 2005, 03:35 AM
Linux in my perspective is fine. It gives you knowledge. If you want something user friendly like windows, why not get windows.

aysiu
October 1st, 2005, 03:49 AM
the only thing i agree does need more work is the problem of installing programs :rolleyes: instead of via terminal not everyone who installs linux is a computer guru It's called Synaptic. Read my sig.

aysiu
October 1st, 2005, 03:51 AM
Linux requires too many low-level configuration and command line usage to be user-friendly to a casual computer user. Hardware, multimedia support, and the lack of commercial software is probably Linux's biggest weakness in tackling the mainstream market. If it's preinstalled and preconfigured, no user will have to do any configuration, just as they don't have to with preinstalled and preconfigured Windows. Also, in Linspire and Mepis, I've never had to use the command line, even when it's not preinstalled.

urbandryad
October 1st, 2005, 03:56 AM
It's called Synaptic. Read my sig.

synaptic works if you have an internet connection working.

I want to install LAME and Audacity, and Gtkpod. How can I do that with synaptic? I'm saving every screen of text I've found using search on the subject, cause I don't have an internet connection, and none of the programs show up in synaptic.

^^;

aysiu
October 1st, 2005, 04:00 AM
actually i find many other things about Ubuntu's PR quite eclecticist and incorrect in this sense, but that deserves another thread of its own.. maybe later. Maybe English isn't your first language, but I really don't know what you're talking about. Eclectic means selecting what appears to be best in various doctrines, methods, or styles If that's what Ubuntu's PR is, then good for Ubuntu.

DancingSun
October 1st, 2005, 04:20 AM
It's called Synaptic. Read my sig.
Right, just yesterday I wanted to get the program that can enable GNOME to have different wallpapers for different workspaces. Guess what, it's not in Synaptic. The only way to install it is compile it from sources...great....commandline time. Synaptic is great, but when you want programs that are not yet packaged in your distro's repository, it quickly gets ugly.

Partially, the open source developers are to blame, cause many of them don't bother to package their software. Now that autopackage is available, I hope the developers will consider it and go the whole 9 yards and package their stuff for the users.

BinaryDigit
October 1st, 2005, 04:28 AM
When I first heard about Ubuntu, I thought "hmm...what an odd slogan". But then came to realize what they were trying to get at... that this Ubuntu distro was ideal for everyone, the "newbies", "experts" and anyone in between. I've heard of new linux users using it as well as professionals using it on their servers and such. It's powerful when an OS can cater to the masses like that.

aysiu
October 1st, 2005, 04:52 AM
synaptic works if you have an internet connection working.
I want to install LAME and Audacity, and Gtkpod. How can I do that with synaptic? I'm saving every screen of text I've found using search on the subject, cause I don't have an internet connection, and none of the programs show up in synaptic.
^^; First of all, if you add the universe repositories, those are all in Synaptic--just search for them. Secondly, I was objecting to someone saying you have to be a Linux guru in order to install programs. Synaptic won't work for all programs, but for the vast majority of users (i.e., people who just want to check email and surf the internet--and that is the vast majority of computer users, whether you want to believe it or not), Synaptic's default repositories are good enough.

And if they aren't, it isn't so difficult to copy and paste a few commands into a terminal and add some repositories. Copy. Paste. If you can't do that, you probably don't even know what Audacity is.

I also strongly object to these generalizations about "Linux." Mepis, for example, comes with Gtkpod, Audacity, and Lame without you having to install a damn thing except the OS itself. Mepis also allows you to add extra repositories through point-and-click in Synaptic. Linspire not only doesn't require you to use the terminal--it practically discourages you from doing so.

23meg
October 1st, 2005, 06:08 AM
Maybe English isn't your first language, but I really don't know what you're talking about. Eclectic means selecting what appears to be best in various doctrines, methods, or styles If that's what Ubuntu's PR is, then good for Ubuntu.

right, English isn't my first language but i have a reason to use that term; not in its direct literal meaning though: eclecticism as an ideology claims to embrace multiple or all cultures, aesthetic approaches, ways of thought, so on, superficially and without question. this may sound like a good thing, and there are historical applications of it in philosophy and psychology where it has been a good thing indeed, but the recent manifestations of it in contemporary culture are in the globalization trend fueled by end of the century capitalism. going too deep into its ideological roots would be out of the scope of this thread, but as an example think of Benetton ads, the way they juxtapose races (which aren't at all unlike, and have been compared to the Ubuntu "circle of friends" GDM theme or the CD cover) for no specific peaceful or constructive goal but just in order to form a global brand identity.

i know that Ubuntu is aiming to reach everyone in the world in equal terms, thus multiculturalism has to be a dominant theme in its PR, and its intentions are far from those of big transnational corporations, but nevertheless the "circle of friends" is a big dangerous cliche, and inherent iconic meanings of some imagery is set in stone, and reminds people of what they've related it to in the past. but as i said, maybe a separate discussion of Ubuntu's overall aesthetics would be appropriate, since i've seen it discussed and harshly criticized for its eclectic, multiculturalist imagery elsewhere.

aysiu
October 1st, 2005, 06:24 AM
I believe you're pointing out the delicate balance between tokenism and true diversity. From what I can tell, Ubuntu does a far better job at achieving true diversity than Benetton does. Sure, the publicity photo of the naked people has to have one of every race and a balance of genders, but Ubuntu is actually a worldwide community made up of people of varying beliefs, socio-political backgrounds, native languages, and economic means.

23meg
October 1st, 2005, 06:34 AM
From what I can tell, Ubuntu does a far better job at achieving true diversity than Benetton does.

no doubt. and it does have to have a multiculturalist focus in its PR as you have (and i have) stated, but there other, better ways of incorporating it than resorting to cliches that are already questionable in their other manifestations, and that can be found offensive in some cultures.

urbandryad
October 1st, 2005, 05:49 PM
how rude! I asked HOW to install those things, NOT HAVING THE INTERNET SO NOT BEING ABLE TO SET UP ONLINE REPOSITORIES, and I get a rant in response. >( I didn't say I didn't like Ubuntu, I was asking for help. Forget I even asked.

aysiu
October 1st, 2005, 05:53 PM
Sorry, I glossed over the part about you not having an internet connection, because I'm a self-centered twit who has broadband. We're in the middle of a debate here, though. If you want help, you should create a new thread and say what your problem is.

tageiru
October 1st, 2005, 06:53 PM
Right, just yesterday I wanted to get the program that can enable GNOME to have different wallpapers for different workspaces. Guess what, it's not in Synaptic. The only way to install it is compile it from sources...great....commandline time. Synaptic is great, but when you want programs that are not yet packaged in your distro's repository, it quickly gets ugly.
Software that is not packaged is not a part of the distribution. The open source world is much more tied to the distribution as the final product. This is quite different to how Windows works. Windows is only a platform for ISVs to create/test/integrate software on.

Of course users are entirely free to use software that is not part of the distribution, but there is no guaranty that it will be painless.

Partially, the open source developers are to blame, cause many of them don't bother to package their software. Now that autopackage is available, I hope the developers will consider it and go the whole 9 yards and package their stuff for the users.
Thats why distributors exist. There is a difference between creating software and packaging it in linux. If you think about it, it is actually benificial for users. Distributors take software from developers and integrate it. Distributors like Ubuntu can theoretically create a much better tested software package than Microsoft because they are in control of the software, not the developers.

Autopackage replicates the way the Windows development and distribution works. That might be nice in specific cases, but overall the current process is much better considering how the open source development model looks.

aysiu
October 1st, 2005, 07:02 PM
I still stand by the "use whatever works for you" approach. For a large contingent of Windows users, programs that are already available via Synaptic (even before enabling extra repositories) are more than enough. And for a lot of us who do need more than what's available, typing in a few terminal commands is not that big a deal.

If you're one of those rare people who wants obscure programs and can't be bothered to type a few commands, then use Windows. Linux is not for everyone.

DancingSun
October 2nd, 2005, 01:21 AM
I still stand by the "use whatever works for you" approach. For a large contingent of Windows users, programs that are already available via Synaptic (even before enabling extra repositories) are more than enough. And for a lot of us who do need more than what's available, typing in a few terminal commands is not that big a deal.
If you're one of those rare people who wants obscure programs and can't be bothered to type a few commands, then use Windows. Linux is not for everyone.
Right, I type a few command lines to install from the source. Oops! I don't like the program! Hmm...I can't find a script to uninstall the damn thing! Now what do I do?

You might not care about the majority of users that don't like command lines and find typing something to interface with programs too intimidating, but I hope many more developers can take my stance. Linux started with a highly technical community, but now it seems that's not so true anymore. Slowly more people want to convert to the "free" world. But while many want to convert, the technical barrier is pushing them back. Surely, it doesn't help if the majority of the Linux community don't give a rats about the troubles they are having. While you say "Linux is not for everyone", maybe Ubuntu has a different philosophy than yours: "Linux for Human Beings". "Human Beings" sounds pretty all-encompassing, doesn't it? If that's the goal of Ubuntu, then that's why I'm here voicing my opinion.

While it may not mean anything to you, and this might even sound stupid to you, it is this motto that made me decide on Ubuntu.

While light computer users probably won't be installing software that are not packaged (and they probably won't install Linux themselves), medium users that like to customize their computers and use their computers for more than just the web and emails, but don't appeal to command line interfaces could frequently run into programs that are not packaged.

Gamers come into mind (and their numbers grow as people get exposed to computer and console gaming at a younger age). They want the latest hardware drivers and the latest games. While hardware drivers are really vendor dependent, the Linux community can be more proactive in voicing their concerns. In anycase, the current situation regarding to driver support is not as well as it can be.

When it comes to games, some games are packaged in installers while others aren't. For those games that are not packaged, many gamers won't touch them. It just seems to much of a hassle.

DancingSun
October 2nd, 2005, 01:40 AM
Software that is not packaged is not a part of the distribution. The open source world is much more tied to the distribution as the final product. This is quite different to how Windows works. Windows is only a platform for ISVs to create/test/integrate software on.
Of course users are entirely free to use software that is not part of the distribution, but there is no guaranty that it will be painless.
Thats why distributors exist. There is a difference between creating software and packaging it in linux. If you think about it, it is actually benificial for users. Distributors take software from developers and integrate it. Distributors like Ubuntu can theoretically create a much better tested software package than Microsoft because they are in control of the software, not the developers.
Autopackage replicates the way the Windows development and distribution works. That might be nice in specific cases, but overall the current process is much better considering how the open source development model looks.
Yes, the current open source environment works better this way. I think this is because of the amount of fragmentation in the open source operating systems and OS distributions world. There are too many incompatible "standards" and software dependencies that each distribution uses, and can cause many programs to only work nicely with certain distributions. But it is frustrating when the program you want to try out, or need, isn't packaged for your distribution, yet. And sometime, they never will be.

The distributors acting as a quality assurance team certainly have their place in the way things currently works. But if there's a stable platform that developers can develop their software against, it would be much easier for the developers to guarantee that their software will work on your distribution and thus will eliminate the barrier of getting through the distributers before the software can get to you. In the very end, only the software developers can control their software. If you make their job easier, they can make the distributors job easier as well. In the end, the distributors can probably just say that we have a list of software that are "approved" by us, so they usually work without problems. If you want to install software out of our approval list, then you might run into problems. Similar to how it works now, but the users have much more freedom of choice.

aysiu
October 2nd, 2005, 01:45 AM
You might not care about the majority of users that don't like command lines and find typing something to interface with programs too intimidating, but I hope many more developers can take my stance. The majority of computer users are what you call "light computer users," not intermediate ones, and those can be pretty comfortable with Synaptic, which has a wealth of software and is easy to use.


medium users that like to customize their computers and use their computers for more than just the web and emails, but don't appeal to command line interfaces could frequently run into programs that are not packaged.
I'm sorry, but Ubuntu's probably not the best Linux distro for you. Sorry, but it's true. Ubuntu is ideal for computer users with simple needs who can point-and-click, intermediate users who are willing to stretch themselves and learn something new, and expert users who can do just about anything. Semi-expert intermediate users who insist on a GUI for everything, yet have very sophisticated needs are screwed... unless these semi-experts want to actually start developing things themselves.

You may want to read this thread (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=58862) for more details.



While you say "Linux is not for everyone", maybe Ubuntu has a different philosophy than yours: "Linux for Human Beings". "Human Beings" sounds pretty all-encompassing, doesn't it? If that's the goal of Ubuntu, then that's why I'm here voicing my opinion. I really don't feel like typing a response this all over again, so just read this (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=70603)

poofyhairguy
October 2nd, 2005, 02:04 AM
The distributors acting as a quality assurance team certainly have their place in the way things currently works. But if there's a stable platform that developers can develop their software against, it would be much easier for the developers to guarantee that their software will work on your distribution and thus will eliminate the barrier of getting through the distributers before the software can get to you.

Two things:

1. What stable platform would they pick? Redhats? SUSE's? Ubuntu's? Debian's? Why one over another? Your idea still does not overcome the problem of fragmentation in the Linux community...any idea that doesn't find some way to manage the chaos like package managers do will never replace them.

2. One advantage for Window in this regard is few releases. Ubuntu releases a new version every 6 months. How can we expect developers to keep running on that treadmill? Why should they when Debian has fewer releases or Windows has fewer still.

Basically, if you are a person that like to install program they find on the internet you have to compile it yourself if its not in the repo. Maybe one day autopackage or smart package will help with that, but the fragmentation in the community is large and hard to deal with!

DancingSun
October 2nd, 2005, 02:09 AM
The majority of computer users are what you call "light computer users," not intermediate ones, and those can be pretty comfortable with Synaptic, which has a wealth of software and is easy to use.

I'm sorry, but there's no room for you at Ubuntu. Sorry, but it's true. Ubuntu is ideal for computer users with simple needs who can point-and-click, intermediate users who are willing to stretch themselves and learn something new, and expert users who can do just about anything. Semi-expert intermediate users who insist on a GUI for everything, yet have very sophisticated needs are screwed... unless these semi-experts want to actually start developing things themselves.
Wow, I sure feel welcomed. And to be presumed that I'm not comfortable with terminals surely make me feel good! I'm sorry that I'm a software developer that voices my concerns over what "semi-expert intermediate users" prefer. You are right, many of these "semi-expert intermediate users" don't use Ubuntu, which is why I am voicing these concerns for them. Because I really wish they can use Ubuntu.


I really don't feel like typing this over again, so just read it (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=70603)
I agree with your post. But that's not what I'm concern with at all. My main concern comes from software and hardware installation. There are some software that cannot be installed the same way as those that you can in Synaptic. Some of those software cannot be managed easily. The concern is that Linux is too fragmented to allow software to be installed in a consistent way. The concern is that developers don't package their software because there's just too many "right" ways to install a software. The concern is the software that I want to use is not installable from the way that my distribution recommends. The concern is that installing manually might cause future headaches when I upgrade some of the dependencies.

I won't talk about hardware here, because I think the problems are well known, and there's only so much the developers and users can do to convince vendors to increase support for Linux.

aysiu
October 2nd, 2005, 02:18 AM
You are right, many of these "semi-expert intermediate users" don't use Ubuntu, which is why I am voicing these concerns for them. Because I really wish they can use Ubuntu. Do you think I have magical powers? Or that anyone here on these forums does? It's not as if I'm at the gates saying "Ha! I was going to include you, and I could do it with the snap of my fingers, but I'm closing the gate on you."

Ubuntu developers are constantly working to improve the OS. Breezy has a lot more GUI stuff and more packages than Hoary. Complaining on a forum does nothing, though.

DancingSun
October 2nd, 2005, 02:28 AM
1. What stable platform would they pick? Redhats? SUSE's? Ubuntu's? Debian's? Why one over another? Your idea still does not overcome the problem of fragmentation in the Linux community...any idea that doesn't find some way to manage the chaos like package managers do will never replace them.
My idea is a mere idea as to what I think we need. What you are looking for is probably an implementation to that idea. I have to admit, that's beyond my capacity at this point in time. I concer that the idea of a stable platform requires a tremendous amount of collaboration. Ideally, communities will need to put down their egos and suppress the politics from getting in their way, but we all know how difficult that task is. But if anyone is interested in the idea, maybe we can come up with some solutions?

2. One advantage for Window in this regard is few releases. Ubuntu releases a new version every 6 months. How can we expect developers to keep running on that treadmill? Why should they when Debian has fewer releases or Windows has fewer still.
Basically, if you are a person that like to install program they find on the internet you have to compile it yourself if its not in the repo. Maybe one day autopackage or smart package will help with that, but the fragmentation in the community is large and hard to deal with!
I completely agree. To establish a stable platform for software development is hard, especially with the way the open source software environment is. You'll want the platform to be stable enough, but also flexible enough to work nicely with rapid developments that some projects have. One way to do this is to ensure backward compatibility for a certain period of time, while allowing the platform to advance at it's own pace. But I think this is a easier problem to tackle than the one above. Human beings seem to always be the biggest obstacle to itself.

DancingSun
October 2nd, 2005, 02:29 AM
Do you think I have magical powers? Or that anyone here on these forums does? It's not as if I'm at the gates saying "Ha! I was going to include you, and I could do it with the snap of my fingers, but I'm closing the gate on you."
Ubuntu developers are constantly working to improve the OS. Breezy has a lot more GUI stuff and more packages than Hoary. Complaining on a forum does nothing, though.
No comment. If it was just a mere complaint, it should've been "UBUNTU SUCKS!".

aysiu
October 2nd, 2005, 02:42 AM
No comment. If it was just a mere complaint, it should've been "UBUNTU SUCKS!". It may for you. The great thing about Linux is that there are a lot of different distributions for different users needs. Ubuntu is not the best OS for everyone. I often recommend Mepis. For you, Gentoo may be the best fit. I don't know.

poofyhairguy
October 2nd, 2005, 02:46 AM
But if anyone is interested in the idea, maybe we can come up with some solutions?



The leader in this area is Mr.Hearn, creator of autopackage. He knows more about the issues than anyone. Look here for info:

http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=54227

problem is that even Mr. Hearn begins to admit that until some standards come about it will be very hard to do such.

I personally believe that there is only one day to get standards in desktop Linux. One way has to win. Thats why most distros use Xorg over Xfree now. Xorg won.

In this case, I don't think major distro standards will come about till one distro is "the" desktop OS in Linuxland. Then all the other will have to copy to compete. Be it Ubuntu, SUSE, Redhat (well....not Redhat, they blew their chance) one has to win for these problems to be solved I say. Till then you can either:

1. Compile yur own programs.

2. Help make packages.

3. Deal with what the repos have.

4. Bounce to whatever distro has what program you want most.

5. Use another OS.

The scene needs a solution. Its fine and good to say its a problem, but that doesn't help anything till a solution is found. I can tell you from experiance- the problem is hard. Might not be fixed for a long time, if ever.

But one reason I like Ubuntu is because so many things are packaged for it in its repos. Really nice. Sure they might not always be the latest version, but msot of the time they work. That is where we stand today. If you want to fix it dig in....just be sure to see what others are doing about it!

aysiu
October 2nd, 2005, 02:54 AM
Once again my newbie hotheadedness gives way to Poofyhairguy's reason, patience, and extensive knowledge. Thanks, Poofy.

DancingSun
October 2nd, 2005, 03:08 AM
It may for you. The great thing about Linux is that there are a lot of different distributions for different users needs. Ubuntu is not the best OS for everyone. I often recommend Mepis. For you, Gentoo may be the best fit. I don't know.
No, I don't think Ubuntu sucks. I'm loving it so far, despite the problems I encounter. I just think that there's an annoying problem that stems out of all this Linux distribution fragmentation on a fundamental level. I believe that software should not get in the way of what people want to do. I'm all for variety and diversity. But if this diversity gets in the way of what we want to do, then perhaps some form of standardization can help make things better. People install software not because they want to install it, but because they want to use it. Learning 3 different ways of installing software just to use software seem somewhat unnecessary for the end-users.

I'm not expecting some magician to spot this post and wave his wand in agreement, then overnight, things change to that way I want it to be. I'm sharing my thoughts with my fellow forumers in a rational and constructive manner (I hope!). The rudest thing to do, perhaps, is to dismiss that thought. I'm not looking for the perfect distro, per se. I'm throwing out ideas and thoughts of, "hey, I think this is a problem, any thoughts?" Without discussing ideas, many things won't come to fruition.

DancingSun
October 2nd, 2005, 03:11 AM
The leader in this area is Mr.Hearn, creator of autopackage. He knows more about the issues than anyone. Look here for info:
http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=54227
problem is that even Mr. Hearn begins to admit that until some standards come about it will be very hard to do such.
I personally believe that there is only one day to get standards in desktop Linux. One way has to win. Thats why most distros use Xorg over Xfree now. Xorg won.
In this case, I don't think major distro standards will come about till one distro is "the" desktop OS in Linuxland. Then all the other will have to copy to compete. Be it Ubuntu, SUSE, Redhat (well....not Redhat, they blew their chance) one has to win for these problems to be solved I say. Till then you can either:
1. Compile yur own programs.
2. Help make packages.
3. Deal with what the repos have.
4. Bounce to whatever distro has what program you want most.
5. Use another OS.
The scene needs a solution. Its fine and good to say its a problem, but that doesn't help anything till a solution is found. I can tell you from experiance- the problem is hard. Might not be fixed for a long time, if ever.
But one reason I like Ubuntu is because so many things are packaged for it in its repos. Really nice. Sure they might not always be the latest version, but msot of the time they work. That is where we stand today. If you want to fix it dig in....just be sure to see what others are doing about it!
Hehe, I already contacted Mr. Hearns about a week ago, and I just got his reply today. Sadly, he hasn't started working the Desktop Linux Platform idea.

aysiu
October 2nd, 2005, 03:17 AM
I'm not expecting some magician to spot this post and wave his wand in agreement, then overnight, things change to that way I want it to be. I'm sharing my thoughts with my fellow forumers in a rational and constructive manner (I hope!). The rudest thing to do, perhaps, is to dismiss that thought. I'm not looking for the perfect distro, per se. I'm throwing out ideas and thoughts of, "hey, I think this is a problem, any thoughts?" Without discussing ideas, many things won't come to fruition. You may be interested in this thread (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=54227)

DancingSun
October 2nd, 2005, 05:17 AM
I just want to say, thanks for all the food for thoughts guys!

DancingSun
October 2nd, 2005, 06:25 AM
That's why a lot of Windows users call Macs Macs and call Windows PCs. Macs are PCs as well (doesn't PC stand for personal computer?), but to many Windows = PC, just as Kleenex = tissue.
PC is widely used to refer to IBM-compatible PCs. So at times people tend forget that Macs are also personal computers, and thus a PC.

aysiu
October 2nd, 2005, 06:30 AM
PC is widely used to refer to IBM-compatible PCs. So at times people tend forget that Macs are also personal computers, and thus a PC. A direct quotation from Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_computer): "The initials 'PC' have become virtually synonymous with IBM PC compatible computers such that they are rarely used to refer to non-IBM PC compatible personal computers such as the Apple Macintosh."

manicka
October 2nd, 2005, 06:34 AM
Most people don't know the difference between windows and office, let alone comprehend the concept of what a PC actually is. Hopefully Ubuntu will help us to educate the masses.

poofyhairguy
October 2nd, 2005, 08:32 AM
I just want to say, thanks for all the food for thoughts guys!


Any time. Good luck in your quest. Its what many of us want, we just have to be straight forward about it at this time!

MoonRise
October 2nd, 2005, 03:04 PM
OK. As a MS user I was going to post how impressed I am, and I still am. It seems to me that the original post was for constructive criticism. I had a few points myself. NOT TO MAKE IT A CLONE. I agree with competion against MS. The only way to make them better as well as yourselves. It isn't a pit of you against them. In order for any system to thrive and exist you need interoperabiltiy, hince why TCP/IP has become what it is. You don't want it NUMBER ONE! Then why you are working on this so hard! That makes your stament illogical. Human nature dictates that it must be number one. Average Joe by the way doesn't want to learn a lot of Terminal Commands. For me it was easy since MS still needs these Terminal Commands. So you say you want it different, that isn't different, just another terminal terminology! Come on guys! Don't have a huge chip on your shoulders because MS users are commenting. You want users. Expect the constructive criticism and use it to make your system better. Not gang up on someone for posting his/her views or for being a MS users. Being a MS user has really been not a choice for anyone now has it!!!

aysiu
October 2nd, 2005, 05:10 PM
Moonrise, I think people were quite rational in their responses to the OP. Can you point out anyone insisting that MS users have to learn a lot of terminal commands? If you want to install and configure Ubuntu, you may have to, but if you just want to use Ubuntu you don't. And other versions of Linux, like Mepis and Linspire, don't require you to learn terminal commands at all.

There's a big difference between constructive criticism and uninformed backlash.

When I first took my job, I had this general approach: "I'm going to do it the way they've always done it until I figure out what's going on and can better assess the situation. Then, I'll improve things." Same thing at my last job, and it's been one of the best career decisions I've ever made, and I've made great improvements at both jobs, but I would have made an ass out of myself if the first day on either job I'd said, "Hey, you know what? You're doing it all wrong. You've got to change X, Y, and Z to get it all better."

It's the same thing with operating systems. New users often think they have all these "great ideas" about how Linux "needs" to improve, but they often have no clue what they're talking about. Please read this thread for more info:

http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=58017&highlight=anatomy+linux+troll


Expect the constructive criticism and use it to make your system better. By the way, we aren't developers on this forum. We're just users.


You don't want it NUMBER ONE! Then why you are working on this so hard! That makes your stament illogical. Human nature dictates that it must be number one. I don't even understand what this means.

poofyhairguy
October 2nd, 2005, 06:35 PM
You want users.

We want active and positive community members, not just users. Thats how community projects stay alive!



Expect the constructive criticism and use it to make your system better.

Developers don't read the forum.

bob_c_b
October 2nd, 2005, 07:27 PM
OK. As a MS user I was going to post how impressed I am, and I still am. It seems to me that the original post was for constructive criticism. I had a few points myself. NOT TO MAKE IT A CLONE. I agree with competion against MS. The only way to make them better as well as yourselves. It isn't a pit of you against them. In order for any system to thrive and exist you need interoperabiltiy, hince why TCP/IP has become what it is. You don't want it NUMBER ONE! Then why you are working on this so hard! That makes your stament illogical. Human nature dictates that it must be number one. Average Joe by the way doesn't want to learn a lot of Terminal Commands. For me it was easy since MS still needs these Terminal Commands. So you say you want it different, that isn't different, just another terminal terminology! Come on guys! Don't have a huge chip on your shoulders because MS users are commenting. You want users. Expect the constructive criticism and use it to make your system better. Not gang up on someone for posting his/her views or for being a MS users. Being a MS user has really been not a choice for anyone now has it!!!
1. You are confusing "best" with "most popular", these are not always the same thing. Linus himself has stated he was never worried about replacing MS or Windows, he was worried about making the best software.
2. Average Joe probably doesn't want Linux anyway, Average Joe wants AOL and Half Life 2. Average Joe wants an appliance, not a computer. That is not a criticism, but Linux can not and should not bend for a "lowest common" denominator, that won't help any of us. Linux will never be "easy" enough for Aunt Sally and Uncle Bob, but Windows isn't "easy" enough for them either which is why their PC has tons of spyware and worms on it. Just clicking without reading or thinking isn't really good for any platform.
3. No one has a chip on their shoulder except Windows users who are sure they understand "why" Linux is not good enough for them.
4. Don't confuse interoperability with ease of use, and I can safely say that Linux is not the source of any interoperability issues with any platform. You can't cooperate with something that is hidden from you.
5. There has always been a choice, but none of this quality for free. If you wanted to break free from MS there has always been the Mac platform.
6. There is one OS project out there that is trying to do exactly what you are asking for; Symphony OS is 100% focussed on novice users who don't want to experience the technical side of Linux. You should check it out.

aysiu
October 2nd, 2005, 08:45 PM
Linux will never be "easy" enough for Aunt Sally and Uncle Bob, but Windows isn't "easy" enough for them either which is why their PC has tons of spyware and worms on it. Just clicking without reading or thinking isn't really good for any platform. I'd like to make a little distinction here: installing and configuring a new operating system will never be easy enough for most users, but once a Linux desktop distribution is set up for computer novices, it's easier than Windows to use. In fact, if you want to click without reading or thinking, Synaptic Package Manager fits the bill a lot better than downloading set.exe files and going through wizards.



6. There is one OS project out there that is trying to do exactly what you are asking for; Symphony OS is 100% focussed on novice users who don't want to experience the technical side of Linux. You should check it out. Actually, there are quite a few projects like that. PCLinuxOS, Mepis, Linspire, Xandros, Mandriva, to name a few.

bob_c_b
October 2nd, 2005, 09:37 PM
I'd like to make a little distinction here: installing and configuring a new operating system will never be easy enough for most users, but once a Linux desktop distribution is set up for computer novices, it's easier than Windows to use. In fact, if you want to click without reading or thinking, Synaptic Package Manager fits the bill a lot better than downloading set.exe files and going through wizards.

Actually, there are quite a few projects like that. PCLinuxOS, Mepis, Linspire, Xandros, Mandriva, to name a few.

I think you and I have agreed before on the distinctions between installing an OS and running recovery on an OEM PC, I agree completely. But those people who are trying to hide from the CLI will eventually want to install some old game or try some new application and it would be a shame if they were so afraid of the CLI that they gave up doing something they wanted to do. Or worse, went back to Windows becasue they knew they could do it there. As I have stated before, I think there are many people who can "handle" the more challenging parts of Linux more so than they think they can, why hide the most powerful part of a *nix based system from them?

I've tried some of the others you have listed and they come close, but sometimes you still really have to get back to the command line to get some stuff done. I saw a demo of the latest Symphony build at Ohio LinuxFest yesterday and the devs have a goal of complete simplicity in mind, simpler than even SimplyMepis or Linspire by a couple orders of magnitude.

aysiu
October 2nd, 2005, 09:41 PM
I'm not saying the goal of all Linux distributions should be to hide the OS from the user. I'm just saying that in some respects (Synaptic, specifically), it actually does so more than Windows. It was a mere observation without any evaluation of whether that's a good thing or not.

ghostintheshell
October 2nd, 2005, 10:44 PM
>>> Linux still needs to be more user friendly to convert Win users

Win users still needs to be smarter to modify their habits?

poofyhairguy
October 3rd, 2005, 12:09 AM
>>> Linux still needs to be more user friendly to convert Win users

Win users still needs to be smarter to modify their habits?


Thats not a very inclusive attitude.

bob_c_b
October 3rd, 2005, 12:33 AM
I'm not saying the goal of all Linux distributions should be to hide the OS from the user. I'm just saying that in some respects (Synaptic, specifically), it actually does so more than Windows. It was a mere observation without any evaluation of whether that's a good thing or not.

I didn't really mean to imply that is what you were saying, sorry if I gave that impression.

Part of the problem here is many people really do want an appliance and I would suggest if these people don't live with someone who will administer the system for them then Linux is likely a poor choice. I think anyone who really doesn't want to know how their PC works and understand what goes on behnid the GUI needs to think very carefully when considering Linux, I don't care how hard devs try to hide it.

aysiu
October 3rd, 2005, 12:44 AM
I think anyone who really doesn't want to know how their PC works and understand what goes on behnid the GUI needs to think very carefully when considering Linux, I don't care how hard devs try to hide it. Agreed.

poofyhairguy
October 3rd, 2005, 12:44 AM
Part of the problem here is many people really do want an appliance and I would suggest if these people don't live with someone who will administer the system for them then Linux is likely a poor choice.

Actually, those people are the best for Linux! Have a geek set it up once and it will run by itself for years without any upkeep. They can have their music playing, web browsing, email checkin appliance with less hassle than in Windows.

The problem is the people that want a personal computer with flexibility- they want more than an simple appliance. Its those people that would have to see Linux's underside and deal with it.

bob_c_b
October 3rd, 2005, 12:51 AM
Actually, those people are the best for Linux! Have a geek set it up once and it will run by itself for years without any upkeep. They can have their music playing, web browsing, email checkin appliance with less hassle than in Windows.

To a point this is true, but we need only look back to last week when the FireFox 1.07 package broke for a lot of people and the only "quick and easy" fix was back to the command line for a litte apt-get -Forcethebuggernow type action. The appliance mode will work, but that geek better be available once in a while for this kind of thing.

Don't get me wrong, I can almost guaruntee my dad's next PC will be an Ubuntu box, but he can call me whenver he needs. I have a couple other family members who will likely follow suit. I want to see a lot more people on Linux, but we should proceed with caution so we don't create the army of disgruntled users Windows has.

poofyhairguy
October 3rd, 2005, 01:07 AM
Don't get me wrong, I can almost guaruntee my dad's next PC will be an Ubuntu box, but he can call me whenver he needs. I have a couple other family members who will likely follow suit. I want to see a lot more people on Linux, but we should proceed with caution so we don't create the army of disgruntled users Windows has.

Agreed. I wish they would just leave big updates like that to backports. That way people that shouldn't be messing with backports won't get burned.

Claudia Park
October 3rd, 2005, 03:21 AM
I completely agree, Linux is far better than Microsoft anyday. I am a new Linux user and I swiiched because I was constantly frustrated with Windows. I am not new to computers and after raising two very inventive teens, I pretty well know my computer stuff. I am a dos person.

The only major set back for me is finding the right way to configure my laptop. I worked on getting the videos to work in the browser, that is fixed...everything is working. Now I have to figure out how to get my usb ports to behave! I will be asking a question in the newbee section.

So far my questions were answered quickly & I wasn't made to feel incompetent. I do searches first to make sure the answers aren't somewhere else. Once I figure out how to configure my laptop properly...I will be flying!

Thank you Ubuntu Communtiy

Claudia Park

bob_c_b
October 3rd, 2005, 04:00 AM
I completely agree, Linux is far better than Microsoft anyday. I am a new Linux user and I swiiched because I was constantly frustrated with Windows. I am not new to computers and after raising two very inventive teens, I pretty well know my computer stuff. I am a dos person.
The only major set back for me is finding the right way to configure my laptop. I worked on getting the videos to work in the browser, that is fixed...everything is working. Now I have to figure out how to get my usb ports to behave! I will be asking a question in the newbee section.
So far my questions were answered quickly & I wasn't made to feel incompetent. I do searches first to make sure the answers aren't somewhere else. Once I figure out how to configure my laptop properly...I will be flying!
Thank you Ubuntu Communtiy
Claudia Park

Always good to hear about another happy Ubuntu user, laptops can be tough sometimes, ask any question you need to.

Claudia Park
October 3rd, 2005, 04:20 AM
It's only the one device I am having problems with, and I might have to forget it for now. All my USB Devices are working except my scanner. My printer is a Dell 1700, and I can plug & play with now, after I found the right driver (HP Laser 4). My floppy external drive, I inserted it & "voila" My mouse (3 button Compaq) never a problem...but this scanner.

It's an Acer S2W 4300U, very ancient but scans beautifully! The port sees it, describes it properly but xsane cannot find it. A "snapscan:libusb:001:003" error( the numbers change so the port is working).

I have to change the permission but I cannot for the life of me figure out where? I am just finding out where all the files are. I have to find out where I should tell the computer it's okay to let me use this scanner.

Thanks, any suggestions will save my sanity, it might not resolve the problem, but I know I will feel better with more direction.

Claudia

Victory
October 3rd, 2005, 08:33 AM
I don't think Linux needs to be any more user-friendly. Sure there might be room for improvement here and there, however I find that the true magic of embracing a new operating system is the satisfaction you feel after you've spent time learning how it works and fixing your basic beginner problems (with the help of friends). If anything, Linux should just become compatible with more and more hardware components and devices and more drivers should be written for what currently is incompatible.

aysiu
October 3rd, 2005, 08:41 AM
If anything, Linux should just become compatible with more and more hardware components and devices and more drivers should be written for what currently is incompatible. I totally agree. The major complaints and newbie frustrations are usually with incompatible devices or devices with closed source drivers. How many newbies leave Ubuntu because Gnome starts off in spatial mode instead of browser mode or because KDE defaults to single-click instead of double-click to open files?

Yaron
October 3rd, 2005, 08:36 PM
would have, could have, should have.............Well it's not a perfect world. If it was you would not have anything to say. Life is only as difficult as you make it. Jump in and have some fun. Ubuntu is for Human beings not robots who point and click. So, you see you have it backwards. :):):):)

O REALLY ?
I got a news flash for you, NOT would have, could have, OR should have, All Those things are Default on win & mac !!!
wake up & stop smelling kernalls ;)

Knome_fan
October 3rd, 2005, 08:41 PM
O REALLY ?
I got a news flash for you, NOT would have, could have, OR should have, All Those things are Default on win & mac !!!
wake up & stop smelling kernalls ;)

Is it really necessary to start the flaming yet again?
And btw., if mac and win do give you what you want, why don't you simply use them and be done with it?

bob_c_b
October 3rd, 2005, 08:42 PM
O REALLY ?
I got a news flash for you, NOT would have, could have, OR should have, All Those things are Default on win & mac !!!
wake up & stop smelling kernalls ;)

Well if Win and Mac are so great, why bother with Linux? If it doesn't work for you just leave it be and let us suffer... in blessed silence.

Yaron
October 3rd, 2005, 08:51 PM
Its Linux for human beings, not Linux for Windows refugees. Plus you can do that with the upcomming Breezy installer.
Our Ubuntuguide is a great resource for that.
Because there are over one billion monitor/video card/motherboard combinations possible and its impossible for Ubuntu to make them all work. Personally, when I installed Warty, it gave me the highest resolution my monitor could take "out of the box."
It would be nice if there was a way to edit xorg with a GUI, maybe for Dapper.
I think this is fixed in Breezy. Hoary was only a second release. Windows second release was 3.1. Big difference.
A windows user will never install Ubuntu and be confortable out of the box unless they want to be.
I speak English and its gibberish to me. Does not matter, Breezy will have a different tool to install programs.
PS: Developers do not the read the forum. If you have problems please report them to bugzilla instead!
stop being so defensive, your anolagy sucks,
PLUS - Last time i checked, Windows “Refugees” are HUMANS!

bottom line, do you want win users to move to ubuntu, or what ?!

Yaron
October 3rd, 2005, 08:57 PM
You're in luck, Yaron. I wrote something just for you (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=70603).


Nice, new interpretation for the word HUMAN, you should
ask Oxford Dictionary, to add it up to they Dictionary. :???:

Yaron
October 3rd, 2005, 09:01 PM
Most people have never installed Windows on a blank slate computer they built from scratch. Yaron most likely never has experienced this joy of installing Windows and then trouble shooting driver conflicts, bios problems, BSOD problems, not to mention Windows does not play dvd's natively out of the box so you have to install a dvd player then you have to install ativirus and firewall. You then have to go and disable all the uneeded services that suck up resources and the list goes on and on. When you buy a pc this is already done from the factory and if you use the recovery disk, it only restores original factory settings. Ubuntu is no harder to set up than Windows is if doing it from scratch.



What Are you talking about man. I have installed dozens
of windows,(95 98+SE 2k XP longhorn, Mac, use Ghost, WHATVER)
never encountered a friction of the problems that i did in ubuntu!
GET REAL!

Yaron
October 3rd, 2005, 09:06 PM
Well Yaron, I could quite well ask what is "Excel", "Powerpoint" or "xxx"? Does Excel or Powerpoint translate into something meaningfull in hebrew so you immediately know what the programs do? How did you know that Excel is a spreadsheet program? Or that Powerpoint is for making presentations? Maybe you learned it somehow? You see what I mean?
Synaptic is a name of a program as well. You just need to learn that. Linux isn't Windows, things don't have the same names they have in Windows, they don't work the same way as in Windows and there are huge differences in the way things are managed.
I dont know the meaning of Synaptic. But I don't know the meaning of Excel either. Doesn't prevent me from using either.



Really?! you should make a pol on the street and ask how many people out there knows what word is, and how meny knows what Synaptic is... ( yes i'm talking about non users)

openmind
October 3rd, 2005, 09:24 PM
Ok, OK, We get it, you really prefer Windows over Ubuntu. It seems to fit you much better, so why are you trolling on an Ubuntu forum? No one's twisting your arm, go and enjoy your Windows(tm) experience!:rolleyes:

It's for Human Beings, not every Human Being!

Stormy Eyes
October 3rd, 2005, 09:54 PM
stop being so defensive, your anolagy sucks,
PLUS - Last time i checked, Windows “Refugees” are HUMANS!

bottom line, do you want win users to move to ubuntu, or what ?!

Not your kind of Win user -- the kind that complains and makes demands when things don't go your way -- Microsoft is welcome to keep you. Keep in mind that I don't represent anybody but myself when I say this.

kleeman
October 3rd, 2005, 10:05 PM
Completely agree Stormy. Winners not Whiners wanted here. Look Ubuntu is free and so requires some effort on the part of a user. It is slowly getting more user friendly but is not at the no-brainer stage yet. I suggest you reinstall Windows.

matthew
October 3rd, 2005, 10:42 PM
bottom line, do you want win users to move to ubuntu, or what ?! I want people to use whatever OS that pleases them. I couldn't care less if someone chooses Windows, MacOS, Solaris or Ubuntu and it is not my goal that Windows users move to Ubuntu. I would like to see that happen because I think this is a great OS, but encouraging that sort of move isn't a huge driving force in my life and I really have no time nor desire to spend a lot of energy worrying about the small percentage of people trying to migrate from whatever other OS who aren't satsfied that a FREE os doesn't do precisely what they want in the manner in which they want it done.

Go find something you will like and do it with my best wishes or at least be kind, thankful and politely constructive in your critique.

BTW: by way of definition since you have been so compulsive in wanting things defined, I do not consider your input thus far to have been a critique...your input falls under the definitions of criticism and complaint.

Yaron
October 4th, 2005, 12:24 AM
Is it really necessary to start the flaming yet again?
And btw., if mac and win do give you what you want, why don't you simply use them and be done with it?


So you don't have a real ansuwer for me ....:cool:

Yaron
October 4th, 2005, 12:26 AM
Not your kind of Win user -- the kind that complains and makes demands when things don't go your way -- Microsoft is welcome to keep you. Keep in mind that I don't represent anybody but myself when I say this.


Are you ubuntu HONER ????
I DIDENT THINK SO !!!:rolleyes:

If You Can't Take Criticism,
you better choose something els to do

KiwiNZ
October 4th, 2005, 12:31 AM
I think this thread has gone far enough

poofyhairguy
October 4th, 2005, 01:28 AM
stop being so defensive, your anolagy sucks,
PLUS - Last time i checked, Windows “Refugees” are HUMANS!

A very small subset of humans. A very small percent. It should not be the main target for a OS aimed at all of humanity. Well....maybe a small percent of the project should be aimed to do that, and a small percent of the project does (the Breezy installer will allows you to mount NTFS partitions).



bottom line, do you want win users to move to ubuntu, or what ?!

I want to help Ubuntu users that want Ubuntu. If they are former/current win users, so be it. If they are OSX users, so be it. Whoever wants to use Ubuntu as it is is who I want to help use Ubuntu.

For your type, the only Linux project I knwo that wants your "business" is Linspire. And I'm glad they exist, because if not Ubuntu would have too much pressure to fill a market it can never make happy.

Have a nice day.

mstlyevil
October 4th, 2005, 01:57 AM
What Are you talking about man. I have installed dozens
of windows,(95 98+SE 2k XP longhorn, Mac, use Ghost, WHATVER)
never encountered a friction of the problems that i did in ubuntu!
GET REAL!

I know better if you had installed DOZENS of machines with those oses, you definately would have run into those problems. I just plain do not believe you. You are obviously here just to flame the board so this will be my last reply to you. I have just as much experience as you claim with windows machines and I can tell you right now you are going to have problems when installing Windows of any flavor on all the different equipment out there. Any one with a ounce of experience installing Windows on new machines will tell you they have trouble at times.

StinkyPete
October 15th, 2005, 01:45 AM
- Let the Windows main and secondary keys actually do something in Linux. The Windows key could drop down the main menu and the second key could give a context menu in a word processor. Make it do something OUT OF THE BOX. Windows users don't map keys and we'll never want to. Unless you have a Mac, your keyboard has these keys.

I totally agree - how can you have a system out-of-the-box that does not have default key strokes to use it? If my mouse fails how do I shut it down? Just because someone else has set a standard we'd be idiots not to use it as 90% of the computer users in the world know them. Don't fight it - go with it :D

erikpiper
October 15th, 2005, 01:56 AM
- Let the Windows main and secondary keys actually do something in Linux. The Windows key could drop down the main menu and the second key could give a context menu in a word processor. Make it do something OUT OF THE BOX. Windows users don't map keys and we'll never want to. Unless you have a Mac, your keyboard has these keys.



Ever heard of the IBM thinkpad pal?

Just another way you assume everyone is like you, and the windows way is best. What if you were used to those keys, and then got a thinkpad? It is simple to memorize a few keystrokes...

At least some people, (Like me) went to Linux for many reasons, but one main reason was "And now for something totally different."

Wolki
October 15th, 2005, 02:07 AM
I totally agree - how can you have a system out-of-the-box that does not have default key strokes to use it? If my mouse fails how do I shut it down?

Try <alt>-<f1> <left> <up> :)

I think It's not that bad that I'm able to do set that modifier to what I want it to do.

Then again, I haven't really used a windows computer with a windows key (ok, sometimes, but only on other people's computers), so I wouldn't know how good it actually is. :)

blastus
October 15th, 2005, 02:28 AM
Come to think of it, those two keys with the Windows logo on them...I've never used them before. Is it possible to buy a keyboard that isn't Windows-branded?

Also, does anyone know of a way to rip the OEM Windows XP product ID sticker off a case? I'm thinking a "terry" cloth and a hot iron may work. I know it's probably illegal to remove the sticker but I don't care. If Ballmer shows up on my doorstep he'll be looking down the barrel of a shotgun! :)

Wolki
October 15th, 2005, 02:34 AM
Come to think of it, those two keys with the Windows logo on them...I've never used them before. Is it possible to buy a keyboard that isn't Windows-branded?

I have one with 3 Keys labeled S1-S3... and they advertized linux support on the package. It was an eays buy. :)

But you probably want this one: http://www.cherry.de/english/enjoy-line/enjoy_cymotion_master_linux.htm

Goober
October 15th, 2005, 07:13 AM
Just thought I'd add some comments to this thread . . .

First, there is no such thing as the perfect OS. There is no such thing as perfection period, to state the blatantly obvious. Linux is not perfect. Neither is Windows, Mac, or any other OS. All have their flaws. Since most of us know them, I shan't repeat them.

Second, Linux isn't for everybody. Most people only want an OS that works out of the box, they want it for a specific purpose, and that's all. They don't want to compile kernels, have to figure things out, and deal with Command Lines. They want nice, pretty, eye candy GUI. Personally, I kinda like Command Lines. I'll even spend time searching for how to manually install something by typing it into the Command Line rather then use Synaptic.

Anyway, back to my point, Linux is not perfect. Linux is but a free (well, for most distros, anyway) alternative to the regular proprietor OS's out there. For me, the biggest flaw is that playing games on Linux, like .exe games that work in Windows, is a hassle. I've yet to figure out Cedega or Wine CVS. I haven't tried all options yet, like QEmu, but anyway, my point is that Linux is not perfect. People must remember that. When it is touted as a free alternative, it is because that is what it is, not the solution to all your woes or complaints about Windows or Mac.

I'll shut up and go to bed now. This is enough ranting for one night. I'm not trying to flame here, just express a point.

blastus
October 15th, 2005, 07:29 AM
I have one with 3 Keys labeled S1-S3... and they advertized linux support on the package. It was an eays buy. :)

But you probably want this one: http://www.cherry.de/english/enjoy-line/enjoy_cymotion_master_linux.htm

That keyboard looks great! In the meantime, I wonder if there is a way to erase the Windows logo off those two keys? I'm gonna pop em off tomorrow and take a look.

I just finished de-Microsoftizing my case. Those WinXP Certificate of Authority stickers are like hard-to-remove price stickers...my sticker had four punch-out holes in it. But nothing that a damp "J" cloth and a hot iron couldn't handle.

cheuschober
October 17th, 2005, 07:42 PM
Hello everyone. I gave my entire weekend over to ubuntu -- completely wiped my windows drive and thought that, with the release of Breezy, I might finally be able to take the jump I've been talking about for so long. As the title of this post indicates it didn't work out as I had hoped and I'm afraid, tail tucked between my legs, that I will be returning to XP but I do so with a heavy heart and hope that someday we'll have a true desktop linux.

My experience, I feel should be fairly average. I'm a power-user who's employed as a SQL Server manager and .Net programmer so I'm certainly not technology gun-shy. Rather the opposite. I understood any linux distro would take a little coaxing to get up and running but what I didn't expect was non-functionality. Just the opposite, the biggest 'pro' I was being told by friends and co-workers of switching to linux was that linux was best suited to 'understand' my hardware and since performance in xp has been an issue on the machine I wanted to install ubuntu on, I was really excited!

The pc in question is a two year old Toshiba Satellite (laptop) A45-S130. Given the age of the laptop and the commonality of its inner workings (Intel 852/855, Atheros 5212 wifi) I had high hopes for strong compatibility. And initially I did. The desktop installation (after some major issues with the dying dvd-rom and the need for netboot installation) came out clean and basically useable. But that's the problem isn't it?

The age of the desktop computer has almost passed. Nowadays we find enthusiast gaming machines, fileservers and media centers, or workstations in those big cases and for the low-use email/office type user? Well, there is a reason laptops are the fastest growing segment of the market--wifi is too affordable and laptops simply continue to get cheaper. Having a computer that turns on and can use the hardline ethernet isn't enough.

I barely (once, though I don't know quite how I did it and was never able to recreate it) was able to get wifi working despite numerous attempts and the assurance that installing the madwifi drivers would take care of it. Of course, this is on an open network which my home network isn't-- and I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for wpa support. Getting anything to work on wpa was simply impossible (xsupplicant and wpa_supplicant both failed me as neither wanted to start -- I believe they resisted the idea that my wireless card can and has operated on a wpa network). Moreso, the more I read, the more inflexible it seemed the system would become so that, were I to finally get them working, to switch on the fly to a new wep network or possibly an open one would take a little more than selecting the network in wifi radar clicking and entering the key, if necessary. Actually, it should be noted that even wifi radar failed me often as my card refused to acknowledge the 'scan' commands preferring to loop in failed attempts.

Another major issue of use on the fly came to light in the vga-out. As I said, I'm a power user and common use for me is to take my laptop with me around the city, connect at lunch in the park to an open hotspot, maybe on our wep network at work, then roam the house a bit before nesting it at my desk where I often plug in my second monitor for 'extended desktop' to increase productivity. There was definately no extended-desktop out to be had and even if I was able to get it working as instructed by the wiki turning it on and off was to be a rather large affair (and by large affair, if you want to call it a desktop environment, I mean something that doesn't involve going into the terminal window to 'sudo gedit' this or that every time and then restart the desktop beyond what is necessary to get things set up). Moreso, I understood enabling this would burn my battery dead.

Where is the 'understanding of hardware' in these circumstances? It is one thing if I were to have an obscure system with unusual parts but this was your most basical celeron driven entry-level pc... this is the type of pc all my college-age friends had because we couldn't afford more. So why is it these are the users who are encouraged to switch to linux but then told that half of the system they paid for isn't going to work? I mean, to be honest, 'restart' never even worked -- the screen went black but it never powered down then repowered... forgive me if I'm wrong (and I fully establish that I could be!) but that seems like it would be a pretty basic idea.

This weekend I really REALLY wanted to give this a try but I'm afraid I've just been burned. So much of what I see is a community of 'geeks' (meant in the good way) who are cannibalizing themselves -- worrying about support for a $500 graphics card that 1% of the population owns but not thinking to address every-day more common issues like vga-out, restart buttons, wireless, and let's not forget power-tools for laptops (not everyone owns a centrino with speed stepping but almost every laptop manufacturer could provide software for processor, harddrive, and lcd brightness -- why can't ubuntu have that?). Ubuntu was highly praised as being the best desktop distro available for it's 'complete package' reliability but this hurt.

I want to say that I'm willing to try again but I don't always have weekends available to just spend pouring through wiki's or dealing with arrogant users, a point I meant to address. I think one of the biggest burns through this affair was the haughtiness of the community. There is a BROAD range of users at an equally broad range of levels of comfortability. Too often I found (less here and more on IRC) a condescending tone when politely asking for assistance -- It's not just ubuntu, however. I tried mandriva six months or so ago and ran into the same intellectual nose-turning. Despite my intentions willingness and excitment about the process of learning, both times I was met with crude comments about how if I didn't know what I was doing I shouldn't be trying to do it. Is that how all linux users learn? Is it genetically programmed then or beamed into their brains? I would like to think that at some point there were other beginners who DO need to be explained the difference between sudo and sudo su ... or frankly that sudo even exists at all!!!

I write this not angrily because I'm just some pissed off guy on a rant but in the hopes that maybe a few users will see this and think of doing their part to alter the course of where the development is going. Though the majority of linux users may be running servers or desktop workstations or gaming rigs with $500 graphics cards that is a terribly small portion of the market and only serves itself. I'm not exactly part of that... I'm a user in the middle, and more of my generation comes to be that -- the last vestiges of genX. We're not limited to word and IE but we also don't scoff at the productivity gained from a second monitor or the need for security in a wireless environment.

At some point I hope the community is able to give up on the high-end and give a little more focus to this middle segment. I don't want Windows and OSX to be the only operating system choices out there and I've donated my time and money to the open source movement but experiences like this just make me wonder if the community really WANTS to branch out to anyone else or if it prefers to be for the technically elite. My big four gripes I think are pretty fair to have asked for. Maybe you don't think so. Maybe 7800 support is more important but if so... I'm saddened because I really wanted to get my Mom using linux by next Christmas and I certainly can't make that recommendation.

~C

aysiu
October 17th, 2005, 08:25 PM
It's too bad you didn't read these two stickied threads before you embarked on your Ubuntu journey:

Is Ubuntu for You? (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=63315)
Anatomy of a Well-intentioned Linux Troll (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=58017)

You probably would have done well to read the first link in my sig.
It sounds as if Linux isn't for you, and that doesn't surprise me. I do think some of your perceptions of how the community is are probably based on a few isolated incidences (you have only four posts?) that were unfortunate.

I would like to challenge a few of your assumptions, though.
I am not a programmer, server admin, or anything. I'm just a regular user. I think you'll find, if you really get to know the community members, that most of us are just users. Sure, some people really know their stuff and are advanced computer users, but I'd say a good chunk (including myself) just popped Ubuntu in, installed it, and posted here with questions. I've been using Ubuntu five out of the six months I've been using Linux, and the community has been nothing but supportive.

When I was a newbie, people answered my questions and didn't talk to me. I'm sorry you were talked down to, but I haven't found that to be the case in general (you can't enforce kindness, however--just about anyone can sign up for a forums account... we can kick them out later, but we can't stop them from signing up).

It sounds to me as if you had some unfortunate combination of the following and are generalizing your experience to be everyone's:

1. Non-Linux compatible hardware
2. A few scarring experiences with unfriendly snooty folk
3. Unrealistic expectations

Sorry. It doesn't happen most of the time, but it happened to you. Best of luck wherever you may end up.

Edit: Okay, I looked through your three other posts. They were all from one thread. You posted a problem. You got one response: "can you ping the web-address of the server you are contacting from your yoper installation anyhow?" which I don't think talked down to you in any way, and then you responded twice to your own thread, eventually saying the problem got solved and you hoped it might help someone else in the future.

How is that being condescending? You can't base your judgments of the Ubuntu community on IRC.

About this:

At some point I hope the community is able to give up on the high-end and give a little more focus to this middle segment. I don't want Windows and OSX to be the only operating system choices out there and I've donated my time and money to the open source movement but experiences like this just make me wonder if the community really WANTS to branch out to anyone else or if it prefers to be for the technically elite. Unfortunately (and fortunately, depending on how you look at it), aims in Linux are not agreed upon (nor are methods). Many in the community are actually elites who have a "read the f'in manual" attitude and do not want the masses to adopt Linux and do not want Linux to increase desktop marketshare. Others (like myself) believe Linux can only benefit by expanding its user base, and we want to help other newcomers. And there are probably still a bunch in between. You get the whole gamut here. Thankfully, most of the people in the Ubuntu forums (I don't know about IRC) want to help new users.

Stormy Eyes
October 17th, 2005, 08:36 PM
I'm sorry you were disappointed, but you really should have tried a LiveCD first, before nuking your Windows installation.

aysiu
October 17th, 2005, 08:40 PM
I'm sorry you were disappointed, but you really should have tried a LiveCD first, before nuking your Windows installation. Yes, cheuschober should have done that. Maybe she/he didn't know about live CDs. Live CDs are wonderful things and a good way to test hardware compatibility.

Stormy Eyes
October 17th, 2005, 08:48 PM
Yes, cheuschober should have done that. Maybe she/he didn't know about live CDs. Live CDs are wonderful things and a good way to test hardware compatibility.

I have to admit, though, that I think Knoppix is a better LiveCD than Ubuntu; it seems to be much more capable and appears to do a better job of hardware detection. I even keep one handy at the office for salvaging data off of dead Windows boxen. I've saved several clients' data this way.

phen
October 17th, 2005, 08:49 PM
I ve installed breezy on a friends laptop two days ago, and it works perfectly. it's an old machine, too, and i will try xfce to speed things up.

I think you've had bad luck with your hardware support. i think the hardware vendors are the ones to be blamed. but i realize that things change. slowly, but the do!

better luck next time!

xequence
October 17th, 2005, 08:54 PM
I must say, that was more thought out then some other anti linux rants we have had.

But it is just the way things are. If an OS works for you, use it. There are a billion different hardware combinations out there, no OS will work on them all. The closest it Solaris on sun machines and OSX on macs.

Ubuntu doesnt work for you. Windows does. Use windows. Simple. Or another linux distro. You wouldent believe how different they can be... Mepis and Ubuntu. Both debian based. Ubuntu worked for me, mepis didnt. I use ubuntu, I am happy.

Now, maybe ubuntu works for someone else. Windows doesnt work for them. They will (probably) choose ubuntu.

poofyhairguy
October 17th, 2005, 08:54 PM
I write this not angrily because I'm just some pissed off guy on a rant but in the hopes that maybe a few users will see this and think of doing their part to alter the course of where the development is going. Though the majority of linux users may be running servers or desktop workstations or gaming rigs with $500 graphics cards that is a terribly small portion of the market and only serves itself. I'm not exactly part of that... I'm a user in the middle, and more of my generation comes to be that -- the last vestiges of genX. We're not limited to word and IE but we also don't scoff at the productivity gained from a second monitor or the need for security in a wireless environment.

At some point I hope the community is able to give up on the high-end and give a little more focus to this middle segment. I don't want Windows and OSX to be the only operating system choices out there and I've donated my time and money to the open source movement but experiences like this just make me wonder if the community really WANTS to branch out to anyone else or if it prefers to be for the technically elite. My big four gripes I think are pretty fair to have asked for. Maybe you don't think so. Maybe 7800 support is more important but if so... I'm saddened because I really wanted to get my Mom using linux by next Christmas and I certainly can't make that recommendation.

~C

Actually, I believe that the middle segment is the hardest place for Linux to grow. In my guide on converting people, I advocate not trying to steer a user like yourself into Ubuntu:

http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=58862

I'm sorry that so many people did and it didn't work for you. But if you read my guide you will see you have many things going against you. Its not always Ubuntu's fault, but that doesn't matter I know.

In the end, the middle group of users is the hardest to convert. Their demands are more than the low experiance users (I set up Ubuntu for a girl this weekend that just wanted a computer to play mp3s and surf the net without viruses. Its all she could hope for she said) and they are not willing to tolerate problems like high experiance users do.

Not to offend you, but please know that Ubuntu might work better for your mom then yourself. She probably has less demands. Does that mean she deserves less? No. She deserves to have a system free from spyware and viruses I say.

With a wired connection and a cheap celeron Del,l Ubuntu can do wonders. For hardcore gamers, web designers, middle of the road users, webcam users, etc all bad Linux categories the other side is better. Since Ubuntu and Linux has finite resources, it will continue to provide most for users that are most satisfied with it- super nerds and non nerds. It will always have a place on a nerd's desktop, or your mom's TiVo or Motorola cell phone.

canadianwriterman
October 17th, 2005, 08:55 PM
I think one of the biggest burns through this affair was the haughtiness of the community. There is a BROAD range of users at an equally broad range of levels of comfortability. Too often I found (less here and more on IRC) a condescending tone when politely asking for assistance

cheuschober:

I can't address all of your concerns about Ububtu... you're at a much high user level than I will ever be. But, as far as your comment quoted above, my experience with the Ubuntu forums has been the very opposite. And no newbee is dumber than I am when it somes to Linux! I did have negative experiences with the SUSE, Xandros and Linspire forum when I tried those distros.

cheuschober
October 17th, 2005, 08:57 PM
Thanks ayisu.

In honesty I didn't spend much time on the forums and most of the flaming / snoot was a result of the IRC channels.

I really do agree with your links though I wish they had been more at the forefront. Finding help on here is difficult at best if you don't already know what you're looking for which is sort of the problem with finding help in the first place, isn't it?

Example (not drawn from my experience but let's idealize): A user is told to edit a .conf file. Wonderful they go find the file and attempt to gedit it and are told they don't have permissions. Putting 'permission' into a search bar doesn't do a great deal for bringing up 'sudo' and more about multi-user environments or servers. Even when it does, however, seeing SUDO in the title of an article doesn't always lead one to understanding that this is whatever it is he/she needs. So a user goes to IRC and asks because there's not a great deal of good done asking a question in a forum when a person doesn't even know what it is he/she is supposed to be asking about! After some flaming they're told the command they need is 'sudo' but not how to use it. Assuming this is a beginner the man pages might not have been revealed as even existing. A search for 'sudo' lists almost ever post and wiki in here so that's pretty much out too.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that the information may be here, like your links above, but it's hashed in rather curiously and often times takes an intermediate or intermediate advanced user who's familiar with the terminology to already find. I'd love to see the above links stickied somewhere or right on the front page of the wiki.

As for incompatible hardware, I think that was a good portion of why I was expressing displeasure -- because a very common piece of hardware isn't being supported or interest in finding support seems low in favor of those ultra-elitist pieces that maybe a large portion of this population may have but the general population does not.

And I wasn't trying to sugges that my experience is representative of everyone's and I apologize if I have done so. Simply that I've been closely following trends since my interest was piqued about a year ago and there's a tremendous amount of development that I find really wonderful and I still support the movement and hope to oneday be a part of the community... just that I was disheartened by what I felt were pretty basic concepts for old hardware. I tried actually a couple months ago to find a linux distro for my girlfriend's new laptop but not a one of the major 'desktop' distro even halfway worked as a result of the age of her hardware (many of the pieces were not even two months) so we waited a bit and found mepis to be the best match and she's successfully had a working linux laptop as a result. But in hardware that has been around for years it seems a little crazy to me that some of these bugs haven't been addressed or worked out unless it's simply that no one cares to work on them or address them which all becomes a matter of priority, I would guess.

Again, I'm honestly not trying to start a giant flame war of anti-linux-dom or anything of the sort... I'm rather unhappy about the idea of having to go back to MS... but power-tools, functional-restarts, vga-out extended desktop, and wpa/wifi are all daily necessary features for me (and maybe not vga-out but the rest for quite a few other users) and if I thought that there was a way to fix them (even if it meant spending the next four weeks working on it) I'd be there in a flash but what I experienced in the channels and in person at a community group I visited is that the community really is more interested in getting WoW up and running which discourages me and leads me to wonder if these issues ever will be resolves.

I guess I was lead to believe by (as your article put it) 'linux zealot' friend that if properly configured any and all hardware could and would be completely compatible. But, even though I know it is possible, I spent 5 hours on Sunday looking for a way to turn off my touchpad 'click' function (I prefer to use just the buttons) and never found the right article to point me to where on earth those settings are stored.

Believe me in that I really don't want to go back. In so many ways, this thread was sort of my last attempt at throwing a line and asking, 'is this even possible?' because it seems as though it should be! But I guess you answered that which I thank you for.

Cheers and take care!
~Chad

cheuschober
October 17th, 2005, 09:02 PM
I'm sorry you were disappointed, but you really should have tried a LiveCD first, before nuking your Windows installation.

That's perfectly okay! It needed nuking anyway (time for the every 3 month re-installation ... feh...) ;) ... I did know about liveCD's but I didn't think a livecd would be giving it a fair chance to see if I could really get things like wireless up and running.

Like I said, the desktop booted just fine. Could browse the web on my hardline. Could turn off the computer... S3 worked great (hibernate was a little funny but I've never trusted hibernate anyway)... but some pretty essential pieces of what I need in a system are missing and I thought I'd be able to get at least one working over the weekend.

Maybe I should clarify and make note that Ubuntu DID work... simply that it didn't work to the level that I needed it to and that was the disappointment.

~C

Stormy Eyes
October 17th, 2005, 09:03 PM
Example (not drawn from my experience but let's idealize): A user is told to edit a .conf file. Wonderful they go find the file and attempt to gedit it and are told they don't have permissions. Putting 'permission' into a search bar doesn't do a great deal for bringing up 'sudo' and more about multi-user environments or servers.

I won't speak for anybody else, but when I help newbies, I give them exact commands to type in. I don't write "Now edit /etc/X11/xorg.conf", I tell them, "Open a terminal and edit /etc/X11/xorg.conf with the following command" and then provide the command: "sudo gedit /etc/X11/xorg.conf". If the user asks me to explain sudo, I do so. Otherwise, an explanation of how sudo works and why it's used is usually not germane to the user's question.

cheuschober
October 17th, 2005, 09:06 PM
Not to offend you, but please know that Ubuntu might work better for your mom then yourself. She probably has less demands. Does that mean she deserves less? No. She deserves to have a system free from spyware and viruses I say.

*laughs* I only wish! She's hooked on her extended desktops these days too! Frankly I think she has more demands than me ... something along the lines of 'reading her mind'... ;)

Cheers,
~C

aysiu
October 17th, 2005, 09:11 PM
For hardcore gamers, web designers, middle of the road users, webcam users, etc all bad Linux categories the other side is better. Since Ubuntu and Linux has finite resources, it will continue to provide most for users that are most satisfied with it- super nerds and non nerds. Web designers? You must mean specifically those using Flash with Macromedia tools, I guess. If you're just doing HTML, Linux is just fine.

cheuschober
October 17th, 2005, 09:19 PM
I won't speak for anybody else, but when I help newbies, I give them exact commands to type in. I don't write "Now edit /etc/X11/xorg.conf", I tell them, "Open a terminal and edit /etc/X11/xorg.conf with the following command" and then provide the command: "sudo gedit /etc/X11/xorg.conf". If the user asks me to explain sudo, I do so. Otherwise, an explanation of how sudo works and why it's used is usually not germane to the user's question.

*chuckles* And I see that now... but how was I to know to search for posts by Stormy Eyes? It's the crux of having a 'community driven' support engine, I realize. There is far more support and assistance to be had but more often than not I can find 20 posts from people who have had a near-same problem but not ones who found complete answers.

The forums are what they are but maybe a small suggestion would to be to get a READ ME section up at the top of the main index where threads like the ones above and particularly pertinent other threads could be placed.

~C

Stormy Eyes
October 17th, 2005, 09:45 PM
*chuckles* And I see that now... but how was I to know to search for posts by Stormy Eyes?

To be fair, you could not have known unless somebody said to you, "Yeah, Ubuntu rocks. And if you need help, look for posts by Stormy Eyes. He's a selfish SOB, but when he knows the answer he gives detailed instructions."

cheuschober
October 17th, 2005, 10:00 PM
To be fair, you could not have known unless somebody said to you, "Yeah, Ubuntu rocks. And if you need help, look for posts by Stormy Eyes. He's a selfish SOB, but when he knows the answer he gives detailed instructions."

True... about the not knowing part... couldn't speak with any experience from the SOB part. In reading the articles posted I acknowledge and accept my 'trolledness' but ... really now... can you guys/gals find a better word for that please? Ouch! Even if the etymology is correct, and I know that it is, it still carries a bit of a negative connotation in the image of a 'troll' the fantastic brutish creature sometimes characterized by being a dumb***. ;-p

You know I never thought to even look in this part of the forum because it's a community chat forum... something I expected to hold information about what people's favorite lunches are... I know, harping on and on about the placement of this info but there does seem to be a gap here on the forums for important first-read information like that. And to correct knowing who to bug, maybe a special thread could be devoted to introducing some of the more useful and helpful posters with name links leading to searches for threads contributed by *insert name here*. That way the Stormy Eyes of this world are at everyone's fingertips! ;)

More seriously, I do want to thank you all for not snubbin' your noses too quickly. I'm certain you get 10 a day of posters like me and I've not given up all hope (I'm going to give mepis a go, though KDE bugs me--'was looking forward to a bit better performance in gnome or even maybe giving enlightenment a go without the bells and whistles of kde or windows). I might check in from time to time to see how development is going though I think it was properly said in estimating that my needs are likely unrealistic ... le sigh.

Cheers,
~C

SickTwist
October 17th, 2005, 10:10 PM
. . .As for incompatible hardware, I think that was a good portion of why I was expressing displeasure -- because a very common piece of hardware isn't being supported or interest in finding support seems low in favor of those ultra-elitist pieces that maybe a large portion of this population may have but the general population does not. . .

Chad,
Sorry to hear about your negative experience with Ubuntu. Since your new to the Linux scene, I would like to comment about your impression of hardware support in Linux.

In an ideal world, every piece of hardware ever created would have perfect driver support for every imagineable OS. Unfortunately this is not the case and most likely will never be due to many factors:

A developers needs to know how a piece of hardware works to write a driver for it. However, some hardware manufacterers can/will not release specifications for their products.
Developers do not have physical access to all hardware which inhibits their ability to test and refine their driver.
There are limited resources. Many Free software projects (including projects for hardware drivers) are maintained by volunteers with limited time and/or ability.
There are legal (patent and otherwise) issues which encumber the development of some hardware drivers.


I truly empathize with your disatisfaction that one cannot make every piece of hardware work with Linux. However, once one is aware of the situation, it is relatively easy to do some research to find out which hardware products/manufacturers are Linux-friendly.

Here are some resources in case you ever consider trying Linux again:

Linux printer compatibility (http://www.linuxprinting.org/)
Linux Hardware Compatibility Howto (http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Hardware-HOWTO/)
More Linux hardware compatibility lists (http://www.linux-drivers.org/)
Linux Incompatibility List (http://www.leenooks.com/1)

John.Michael.Kane
October 17th, 2005, 10:14 PM
If you do make a return to linux of any flavor here's a list of things you could read over.
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardwareSupport?highlight=%28hardware%29
http://www.tldp.org/LDP/intro-linux/intro-linux.pdf
http://rute.2038bug.com/index.html.gz
http://www.oreilly.com/openbook/

im sorry your time with ubuntu went so wrong.

poofyhairguy
October 18th, 2005, 12:47 AM
As for incompatible hardware, I think that was a good portion of why I was expressing displeasure -- because a very common piece of hardware isn't being supported or interest in finding support seems low in favor of those ultra-elitist pieces that maybe a large portion of this population may have but the general population does not.

Actually, the newest high end hardware usually has the worst Linux support. It there were many people asking how to install 3D cards in Ubuntu, that means they don't work by default not that they do. Its just taht those people want to get them to work, they are nerds so they plan to get them to work.

Most of your problems maybe could be gotten around. I have a dual head computer than I'm on right now in Ubuntu. It required hacking an obscure text file to get it to work, but I did it because I'm motivated to switch. If you want I'll give you the link for the guide I used. Why isn't it easier? Because that one file has to be hacked this way if it an ATI, and this way if its Nvidia, and this way if tis not and the possibilities are too much to make it easy. Could be easier, but never super easy I don't think.

For the wireless, Linuxant's Driverloader is an easy way to go. You have to pay, but thats the price for not messing with Ndiswrapper.



But in hardware that has been around for years it seems a little crazy to me that some of these bugs haven't been addressed or worked out unless it's simply that no one cares to work on them or address them which all becomes a matter of priority, I would guess.


Doesn't matter if the hardware is brand new or years old- if the manufacturer refused to help at all there is little the community can do.

cheuschober
October 18th, 2005, 01:35 AM
Thanks.

It's not as though there's a lack of desire on my end... committment to make the switch, but I feel like I've exhausted all the options available... wpa especially (roughly 20 dedicated hours this weekend to just that and still wasn't working). And even if there are hacks, some of it just has to do with usability as well -- understanding that I may only be using dual-head for about 45 minutes when I sit down before I pack up, disconnect, and go sit wireless in the park... I read in several places that the types of hacks you're referring to often require a more static environment and that it is not necessarily that simple to just plug, run a script, and play so to speak and then change back in a moment's time -- and restarting every time I sit down isn't an option, rather, the stability of the linux platform was one of the points that draw me to it. Multiple restarts to change environments would be antithetical to that.

I knew going in here that I had four big hurdles in usability to jump. I think if I could have figured out one of them I would have had a little hope but c'est la vie! I'm enough of an adventurous young buck to not need a total 'out of the box' package... but I'm never comfortable with the idea for paying for mechanical functionality and then effectively making it unusable in software (IE VGA-OUT). To be honest, I was pleasantly surprised that as much worked as it did and kudos to the team!

I guess I just wasn't aware of how little support there is for the 'trolls' (mid-range users) and I'm grateful at least for the education. Downloading Mepis as we speak and praying I can get it to work. I'm unfortunately under a deadline -- I have to get at least wireless and any power/acpi issues resolved by the end of the coming weekend as I'll be losing my desktop for about six weeks to a move and I've got to have some kind of working computer. So that'll give me post-work this week and if nothing comes of it, then it's back to the dreaded xp this weekend. Oi-ve does not describe the thought of that. :-p

~Chad

erikpiper
October 18th, 2005, 03:29 AM
On wifi- I have a zaurus pda. It runs linux, and the freely downloadable cacko "rom". (PdaX works too)

I also have a CF wifi card. I plug the card in, type in my essid and wep key, and it works. I repeat, free distro does this by default.

Why can't desktop linux be that way with wifi? Or a single package to install, or something?


(End rant :p )


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On mepis, I tried it and hated it. VERY buggy.

On connecting laptop to another monotor, on my thinkpad (Fn+f4) cycles through all modes. I have used it with ubuntu to drive a projector at church. No configuration.

Brunellus
October 18th, 2005, 06:47 AM
On wifi- I have a zaurus pda. It runs linux, and the freely downloadable cacko "rom". (PdaX works too)

I also have a CF wifi card. I plug the card in, type in my essid and wep key, and it works. I repeat, free distro does this by default.

Why can't desktop linux be that way with wifi? Or a single package to install, or something?


(End rant :p )


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On mepis, I tried it and hated it. VERY buggy.

On connecting laptop to another monotor, on my thinkpad (Fn+f4) cycles through all modes. I have used it with ubuntu to drive a projector at church. No configuration.
...perhaps because there are far more devices for the "desktop"? PCI, PCMCIA, USB adaptors all come to mind. The zaurus had a very limited pool of additional hardware available, so theoretically support should not be so hard.

Brunellus
October 18th, 2005, 06:59 AM
I guess I just wasn't aware of how little support there is for the 'trolls' (mid-range users) and I'm grateful at least for the education.


your total failure to read any of the stickied threads is not counted against you, since nobody reads those anyway.

Your primary sin, if you can call it that, is expectation. Total novices, who have very little actual computer experience, dont' know what to expect, and thus deal with ubuntu and gnu/linux in general quite well. Advanced users, generally, know what they're getting into, or at least know that things will be different in a new environment, and that the old tricks won't work. They are thus less bothered by minor setbacks, because they know that things will be different from the very beginning.

Users like yourself are generally bad candidates for migration, since you seem to have developed fairly fixed ideas about what your computer "should" be doing, and how it "should" do them.

We get dozens of 'SCREW YOU GUYS I'M TAKING MY BALL AND GOING HOME' posts like yours a day. We take them in our stride here, and try not to flame back too badly, because...well...we're nicer. Try doing the same with a bunch of Slackware users sometime.

Unfortunately, the tone at #ubuntu has gotten much more snappish lately, in my opinion. If you got burned there, well, I'm sorry. But we can't take responsibility for the actions of folks hanging out on the irc channel.

Generally, though, it's not a good idea to walk into a bar in someone else's neighborhood, order a drink, and do nothing but complain, and then offer "helpful" suggestions to the locals about how things "Should" run. In some places, you'll be ignored. In others, you'll be laughed at. In still others, you'll find yourself bleeding slowly to death in the gutter outside. As in real life, so on the internet.

And every time you get mad, remember exactly how much you paid for everything.

cheuschober
October 18th, 2005, 03:57 PM
... Advanced users, generally, know what they're getting into, or at least know that things will be different in a new environment, and that the old tricks won't work. They are thus less bothered by minor setbacks, because they know that things will be different from the very beginning.

Users like yourself are generally bad candidates for migration, since you seem to have developed fairly fixed ideas about what your computer "should" be doing, and how it "should" do them.

I guess where my confusion did (and still) lies is in this idea of 'the old tricks' not working... And I'm not trying to be snippish, just to understand... is this to say that many community users are just accepting that they paid for hardware that will not function anymore? Some things, yes, you can say will function 'differently' (differently being at less than ideal conditions) -- example being say, my wifi -- I know at one point I was able to get my wifi up and running but only on an open network... now I am assuming that were I to tinker a bit I could get it fairly stably running on a WEP encrypted channel and I guess that would be good enough for some but (again) I paid for a wpa-enabled router beause I had a fellow attempt to hack my network once and he got pretty far along -- to use wep seems like a step back. This is, of course, different from something else like, say, vga-out which appears to have about a snoball's chance in... you get the idea.

My other two big beefs? Eh... If my laptop restarted properly in windows, there had to be a way linux could force the same... and I was fairly confident that with a little work something could be worked around... the laptop had working hotkeys for lcd brightness which gave me hope that an event like disconnecting or reconnecting the ac could be written to emulate at least the important power-functions I've found are necessary to getting past the 90min battery-life mark. (granted I'd have to do a lot of learning but that's part of the fun of making such a monumental switch, isn't it?)

So the latter two examples, to me at least, read as 'old tricks not working' because the statement indicates as though there are new tricks to get things working... but the former two read as something different... Are both sets of scenarios held under the same umbrella philosophy?

Again, not trying to flame or anything but at the very least I'd like to take a little more knowledge from this affair in the hopes of being an 'informed buyer' ... At the very least, I'm not really paying for windows either... well, okay, $15 for a pre-sp1 xp pro hologram disc through my university at the time... old and needs updates but without the 'registration' security measure built in that prevents multiple installations... not that I'd ever do that... :rolleyes:

Oh an on the mepis front -- wow, was that ever a bust! I can't stand the interface and ran into some rather ridiculous troubles through both the gui and the terminal trying to enable my eth0 port... feh... it needed a lot of love and the interface didn't do it for me anyway. I've got till friday so I'm going to try to give one of these debian builds one last go before I bow my head in shame.

:-p

~C

aysiu
October 18th, 2005, 04:17 PM
Old tricks not working refers simply to approach (how do you solve problems, how are you trying to accomplish tasks), not whether or not hardware functions. As I think I said before, Linux does not (as your Linux zealot friends may have led you to believe) function on all hardware. Wireless is one of Linux's weak points (not saying wireless never works, but it's not as well supported as other things). It doesn't mean you have to buy some kind of weird, obscure hardware. It just means you have to make sure your hardware is compatible. That's why live CDs are such wonderful things. You don't have to install anything, and you can see how it works on your computer.

My best suggestion would be to stick with Windows, and if you ever get a new computer, find one that's Linux compatible. Even take a live CD to the store with you to try it out! Or order from a manufacturer that preinstalls Linux on its computers (MicrotelPC does this, for example).

Mr_J_
October 18th, 2005, 05:05 PM
U sound like me a couple of years ago, while in mandrake.
Half my stuff didn't work and the rest was just too buggy so I went back to windows.

Before I do any switching with linux I find the distros forums, either in LinuxQuestions or their real one that can be found threw their site and I go around searching it to make some bad problems appear.
There are always more than the ones you read. Always!
I still go in really half blind and I always end up asking around for help where ever I find it. Reality in these forums is nicer than in a lot of places and you just need to take the good and keep it and the bad a shuv it. :D

A lot of Hardware for Laptops might not be supported, and a lot of the functions you expect might also not be there in an easy way.
Mainly due to price! Remember that while the people here may have jobs and make money, it still is easier cheaper to build a desktop. A laptop can't be easily built by parts, so you have troubles. Also Ubuntu being free atracts loads of people that don't have money to pay for pricy stuff like a 1300euro laptop.

Unfortunatly Linux is still a guessing game in many ways! Speacially due to little Manufacturer support. We are free but a lot of us are brooke and tired, but we have spirit!
Hope in the future your needs are met in the linux world. Hey post them in the Dapper wish list. You never know! It could happen.

As you might know... You are on the first line of battle of your kind. Laptop Power Users...:smile:

cheuschober
October 18th, 2005, 05:32 PM
Hope in the future your needs are met in the linux world. Hey post them in the Dapper wish list. You never know! It could happen.

Well, assuming it doesn't **** people around here off too much to have a 'well intentioned troll' hanging around I am /considering/ dual boot... haven't decided yet as space on that lappy is a major premium for me until I get my second terrabyte for my media server which should be during the post-thanksgiving rush in the US.

I want to give a few more builds a go this week, but if I decide to dual boot I'd likely stick with ubuntu as it seemed to have the highest compatibility thus far... mandriva was a JOKE! Worse than Mepis on this laptop. So yeah... either ubuntu or gentoo... just because I'm crazy aggressive like that and a friend is a gentoo guru... certainly would be a quick way to learn linux.

The only real problem with a dual-boot, of course, is that my room (where the laptop will reside) won't be wired so unless I could get wpa up and running I'd be stuck in the corner of my living room next to the plant that sits atop the router and I'm not exactly certain I'd spend a lot of time working there... ;)

Of course... believe it or not... wireless support in linux promises to be slightly better (if resolved) than my post-sp2 windows wireless which requires a full windows restart every time I want to change networks or resume from suspend/hibernate. My biggest hope for linux is getting the wireless issue locked down. I know about 5 people with different makes/models of windows xp sp2 laptops who have the same problems with wireless-zero. Finding a stable platform that allows for quick scanning and new networks without restarts is hugely important to me.


As you might know... You are on the first line of battle of your kind. Laptop Power Users...:smile:

Well, if I had a powerful laptop I might be willing to agree... but alas it's going to be a few years... this hunk of cheap junk needs to last me till we have OLED screens, hybrid harddrives, fuel cell batteries, and dual-core turions which at least puts me into 2007! :-p

Thanks and cheers just the same,
~C

Mr_J_
October 18th, 2005, 06:06 PM
Hmmm.... 2007 promises! Laptops promise to get better in the next 2 years. A lot!

Intel has achieved some marvels and unless AMD pulls one hell of a rabit out if it's backend there are going to be some great shifts towards Intel in the laptop world.

By 2007 I want a waffle thin laptop with fuel battery that has an autonomy of 6h+ when using wi-fi constantly!
:D

Just start saving up!
Hope the linux world gets those things running up and well before it all starts to disapoint others. Probably Ubuntu is going to be the one to do it. Laptops are always touchy so Ubuntu is good for it!

cheuschober
October 18th, 2005, 06:35 PM
You know I used to think AMD didn't know what they were doing in the laptop segment either but I read a really fantastic (and thorough -- something akin to 17 pages or so) set of 'real life' usage tests with the Turion line that actually had the Turion come out just a smidge on top... seems it doesn't burn as much fuel when not working hard and burns a little more when gunning it up. At the same time, depending on the application it showed similar results most of which were more or less resultant of the application of DDR2 vs DDR memory... sometimes the high DDR2 bandwidth was excellent for the intel product... sometimes the low-latency DDR and integrated memory controller of the Turion came out on top.

In the end, reading what I read, I'd rather give Turion my business because it's A) not intel and B) on average a cheaper product to produce (whether or not it's marketed that way is up for grabs) and should be reflected at the price-point. The dual-core models should be out very soon for both intel and Turion and I look forward to seeing the results of that ... if you can't tell already, I'm a heavy multitasking user and the low-lag of a dual core (or dual processor such as is my media server) is just going to be necessary for me on the next wave of products.

However, considering the existing support issues and the likely ratification of 802.11n certification by that time, I'm hoping that intel does produce another internal wireless card (one certified for 802.11n) as users seem to have the best luck with the intel cards as I've noted.... my poor atheros card just doesn't know how to react properly madwifi or not.

Hopefully the cheap production costs of oled screens will offset the costs of a fuel-cell battery leaving only the hybrid hdd specifications to be covered... of course, if you want my personal favorite idea... as soon as the hybrid hdd's hit the market linux needs to devote some serious attention to those suckers come tweak time and see about forcing as much of the system as possible to be loaded into the flash portion for quick-boot and low-latency response. M$ is already getting a head-start with vista since it's helping develop the drives with Samsung.

My only question / quarrel / qualm with the hybrid drives is whether or not this NandOne memory has the existing 100,000 write/read limit of most consumer flash products as that would be quite dangerous to fast and furious users and the benefits of 'longer drive life' would not be realized... it could actually shorten drive life. Also to question is whether or not they hybrid drives will actually finally take advantage of the SATA interface found in the newer M and Turion lines.

So who's to know? Next year will certainly be an interesting year to watch the laptop market segment. I think we'll see our first commercial (though non-mass produced) OLED laptops, and the dual-core and hybrid drives are already confirmed.

cheuschober <-- maybe not a linux geek but still a geek :cool:

~C

aysiu
October 18th, 2005, 08:57 PM
So yeah... either ubuntu or gentoo... just because I'm crazy aggressive like that and a friend is a gentoo guru... certainly would be a quick way to learn linux. Definitely go with Gentoo, then. If you have a Gentoo guru friend, nothing makes a migration to Linux easier than a guru for a particular distro.

cheuschober
October 18th, 2005, 09:02 PM
Definitely go with Gentoo, then. If you have a Gentoo guru friend, nothing makes a migration to Linux easier than a guru for a particular distro.

Believe me, I'd already be there if it wasn't for the fact that he lives in St. Louis and I live in NYC and both of us have busy social lives. :cool: Trying to spot out how much I could do on my own with a few phone calls and emails to him.

~C

aysiu
October 18th, 2005, 09:08 PM
If you do end up deciding to dual-boot, this is a great tutorial (http://users.bigpond.net.au/hermanzone/) that is really step by step and has screenshots.

poofyhairguy
October 18th, 2005, 11:20 PM
is this to say that many community users are just accepting that they paid for hardware that will not function anymore?

Yes. I have a $120 dollar ATI card that works fine in Windows sitting on my shelf because it was replaced by an Nvidia card when I got into Linux. When my girlfriend switched, we put her wireless card in the drawer and got a compatible one on ebay. When I bought a serial ATA controller I went out of my way to buy one that works with Linux- took me about an hour. A friend of mine has an ethernet card that I used as an ash tray for a while when it wouldn't work whit Ubuntu for him. I could go on and on.

You remeber when someone in your family once told you that nothing in life was free? In many ways its the truth.

Dealing with the fact that hardware won't work in Linux, and that you might have to replace it is the "true cost of Ubuntu." For me Ubuntu has cost about $200 in replaced stuff and it was wroth every penny. From now on I plan to build my own machines than buy one with parts that might not work.

Of course, Windows uses resources as well. I perseonally prefer to get new hardware and tinker with the parts than spend time dealing with spyware and viruses. Heck, I'm a nerd I'll buy new hardware at some point anyway. So why not buy it to work with Linux.

I think of it this way. I want a desktop *nix. The cost of entry to a Mac is a new machine slower than my own (I would only get a mini). The cost of entry to Linux was a new wireless and graphics card that cost a third of the price of the mini. Its an easy decision for me, especially because I can't stand the slowness of the mini's hardware!

poofyhairguy
October 18th, 2005, 11:31 PM
Ok its bugging me. You have card I KNOW has Linux drivers. They are closed source drivers so they are not included with Ubuntu, but they do exist. I know it can work eventually.

First, have you tried these updated intructions?

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MoreRecentMadwifiHowto

Breezy is new so the wikis are not all up to date yet. Secondly, have you tried kanotix? It has the best wireless driver support I have heard many times. I want to help you with this id you want to keep trying. That card isn't a broadcom, so it should work.

aysiu
October 18th, 2005, 11:33 PM
I agree with Poofy (though he said it better than I could)--see post #26 of this thread.

cheuschober
October 19th, 2005, 03:34 AM
Ok its bugging me. You have card I KNOW has Linux drivers. They are closed source drivers so they are not included with Ubuntu, but they do exist. I know it can work eventually.

First, have you tried these updated intructions?

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MoreRecentMadwifiHowto

Breezy is new so the wikis are not all up to date yet. Secondly, have you tried kanotix? It has the best wireless driver support I have heard many times. I want to help you with this id you want to keep trying. That card isn't a broadcom, so it should work.

Decided while I was waiting for kanotix to dl to give ubuntu another go with the suggested link... good wiki but doesn't seem to apply... I seem to have an .i386 kernel not an .i686 one... I'm assuming that CeleronM's don't use the .i686 kernel.

Feh. Seems the deck is stacked against me.

~C

poofyhairguy
October 19th, 2005, 04:07 AM
Decided while I was waiting for kanotix to dl to give ubuntu another go with the suggested link... good wiki but doesn't seem to apply... I seem to have an .i386 kernel not an .i686 one... I'm assuming that CeleronM's don't use the .i686 kernel.


Don't give up so quickly. You are new user and you just need to learn some new things.

Anything younger than a Pentium 2 can use a 686 kernel. Its not the default because just in case someone tries to install Ubuntu on a really old machine. I add the 686 kernel everytime I install Ubuntu. You should do it as well. I'll tell you how.

Hook you computer up to an ethernet for a while. Many public places have them. Use this command:


sudo apt-get update

Then this one:


sudo apt-get install linux-686

That will install a package called linux-686 which will install the new kernel. After its done reboot and you are set. You will be running on a 686 kernel then. I think its faster, but who knows. I KNOW I need the linux-686-smp kernel for multiple CPUs and hyperthreading.

Alright. One problem solved. On to the next.

cheuschober
October 19th, 2005, 04:31 AM
*laughs*

Okay... I'm a little more humbled. But now I seem to have duplicate copies of some modules? Linux-restricted for one. Is that normal?

poofyhairguy
October 19th, 2005, 04:54 AM
*laughs*

Okay... I'm a little more humbled. But now I seem to have duplicate copies of some modules? Linux-restricted for one. Is that normal?

Yep. Totally normal. Thats how mine has been for a while.

cheuschober
October 19th, 2005, 05:18 AM
Okay well that's good... but sad news is that the updated madwifi doesn't work. Links are dead in the wiki but that's easy enough to solve (just found the author's website and found the new links to his/her repository, added them to sources.list, and installed via synaptic). Following the directions I moved the madwifi directory and restarted... iwconfig showed that my wireless card is no longer even recognized as a network card anymore but lspci showed is as an ethernet controller? Random.

I tried removing the updated madwifi and moving the old module back to its original location but even post-restart it's a no-go. Seems I did something naughty. Thank you sincerely, though -- here you are a LOT more civil than the IRC forums! (and helpful frankly)

~C

Edit: Okay... that's my fault... didn't note a single-digit difference in the kernel versions so I recompiled and installed... works now... works with WEP even though transmit strength seems lower than usual... going to see about doing something with that... but I'm impressed... it's working... now... on to wpa...

poofyhairguy
October 19th, 2005, 08:22 AM
Thank you sincerely, though -- here you are a LOT more civil than the IRC forums! (and helpful frankly)



Edit: Okay... that's my fault... didn't note a single-digit difference in the kernel versions so I recompiled and installed... works now... works with WEP even though transmit strength seems lower than usual... going to see about doing something with that... but I'm impressed... it's working... now... on to wpa...

Sweet.

Brunellus
October 19th, 2005, 02:21 PM
here you are a LOT more civil than the IRC forums! (and helpful frankly)

Like I said, #ubuntu has taken on a rather churlish tone lately, probably because of the phenomenal number of people on that channel at any one time. Back in the days of Warty, it was actually pretty easy to get the attention of fairly knowledgable people there, and odds were that several people might actually help you in concert.

Through the hoary cycle and now into breezy, #ubuntu has just been getting overwhelmed--that's the sense I get, anyway--and so there's a great deal of general frustration that seems to go around up there.

There also seems to be a general anti-ubuntuguide tone to #ubuntu which doesn't resonate well with many of us forum regulars.

cheuschober
October 19th, 2005, 04:59 PM
Indeed.

I'm actually going to let WPA sit for a day... more importantly I need to get this restart bug fixed... anyone seen any threads on failed restarts? Searching for 'blank restart' is rather impossible to disambiguate.

Again thanks,
~C

llandorin
December 9th, 2005, 03:48 AM
I hae to say that I have had all sorts of trouble with Linux distributions. I use SCO Unix at work, ten years Windows, blah blah, know my way around Windows well, Unix kinda. I originally tried MEPIS, but found that MEPIS was too much like Windows, and at the risk of sounding petty, it looked and ran like someone had sat down at their coding computer with a windows machine next to them and just went through what windows could do. Did a very good job of it, but that was not what I wanted. So I tried Fedora Core 4. And it killed my computer for a little while. Serious issues with the GRUB loader, and I wanted to dual boot. So I reinstalled MEPIS. But wierd things have happened to XP, like some sounds not working. All in all it has been a little bit of a rough trip.

AND I HAVE LOVED IT!

This is what I signed on for when I decided to switch from Windows, an OS that is not Windows, has different strengths and weaknesses to Windows, and doesn't treat me like I have the intelligence of a retarded greyhound (I love my greyhound, but she is DUMB). Linux has, in general, given me the opportunity to break out of the standard mould, and actually start to own my own computer.

I have always go the impression that this is why people switch to Linux, and I agree completely. Looking forward to Ubuntu. Hopefully it will work nice and easy on my machine, will work with it if it doesn't.

commodore
December 16th, 2005, 05:39 PM
I have been using Ubuntu for a few months now and I can't see anything better in Linux. It's a lot harder and messier. It's so hard to install even simple things. In fact I never managed to install an app by unpacking it on the command line and running make. I actually think Windows is better to use.

But I like the idea behind GNU that software is free. I like both freedom and free of charge. That's why I'm still going to try to use Linux on. Maybe I have to try BSD, I don't know. I hate Microsoft so I'm trying not to use their software.

emperor
December 16th, 2005, 05:45 PM
I In fact I never managed to install an app by unpacking it on the command line and running make.
Installing is generally a 3 step processes, "configure", "make", and "make install". The last step is better done using "checkinstall" which will created a debian package ".deb" which can later be removed or updated.

If the "universe" and "multiverse" repos are enabled in apt by editing "/etc/apt/sources.list", you will rarely need to perform the 3 step on source files.

deNoobius
December 16th, 2005, 05:48 PM
I have been using Ubuntu for a few months now and I can't see anything better in Linux. It's a lot harder and messier. It's so hard to install even simple things. In fact I never managed to install an app by unpacking it on the command line and running make. I actually think Windows is better to use.

But I like the idea behind GNU that software is free. I like both freedom and free of charge. That's why I'm still going to try to use Linux on. Maybe I have to try BSD, I don't know. I hate Microsoft so I'm trying not to use their software.

I don't understand why you wouldn't use Synaptic. It makes installation incredibly easy.

aysiu
December 16th, 2005, 05:51 PM
It's so hard to install even simple things. In fact I never managed to install an app by unpacking it on the command line and running make. Simple things like Thunderbird?
sudo apt-get install mozilla-thunderbird How hard is that? Why do you have to ./configure make and make install? If it's "simple things" you want, they're all in the repositories.

Use whatever works best for you, but don't lie. Simple things are easier to install in Ubuntu.

KermitJr
December 16th, 2005, 05:55 PM
I have been using Ubuntu for a few months now and I can't see anything better in Linux. It's a lot harder and messier. It's so hard to install even simple things. In fact I never managed to install an app by unpacking it on the command line and running make. I actually think Windows is better to use.

But I like the idea behind GNU that software is free. I like both freedom and free of charge. That's why I'm still going to try to use Linux on. Maybe I have to try BSD, I don't know. I hate Microsoft so I'm trying not to use their software.

That's REALLY odd. A few things.

1) Most things i want to install, I run synaptic, search or browse for the program I want, click "Apply" wait a few minutes and voila! I'm done.

2) In windows, i've never been able to compile a program from the command line either... at least not out of the box.

3) In Linux, all of the software I use is free of charge. I can't normally get a response from the creator/programmer if I have a big issue.

4) In windows, I have to pay for most software functionality and then hope/pray if I downloaded it off the internet, that it doesn't have spyware/malware/virii, etc.

5) In Linux, I have a one-stop shop for finding, downloading, and installing programs. A few clicks to get or get rid of.

6) In windows, I may have to google for several programs, hope I can uninstall them, download, unzip then find the .exe to install.

So my big question... What software do you use that you actually have to unpack at the command line? With 18,000 programs at your apt-gettable fingertips.... why install from command line? Why not use synaptic?


KermitJr

tseliot
December 16th, 2005, 05:57 PM
Simple things like Thunderbird?
sudo apt-get install mozilla-thunderbird How hard is that? Why do you have to ./configure make and make install? If it's "simple things" you want, they're all in the repositories.

Use whatever works best for you, but don't lie. Simple things are easier to install in Ubuntu.
I completely agree with you. The only package I "needed" to compile from source was Kbfx but it is not essential.
I wonder which application he needed to compile. And he could have asked for help in this forum.

Knomefan
December 16th, 2005, 06:00 PM
Though I don't find your describtion of Linux accurate, use whatever you are most comfortable with.

There's a bunch of free software running on Windows and if you really hate MS that much, maybe give a Mac a chance (also loads of free software for it available).

Have fun!

endersshadow
December 16th, 2005, 06:01 PM
Yeah, the only stuff I've compiled from source was the GIMP devel release (which I actually made a .deb for and posted it in this forum), and some other stuff that people were having trouble with.

I'm a pretty heavy tweaker and I'm never complacent with my computer, so I'm always adding stuff and taking away stuff, too. I haven't found one *nix distro that had an easier installation process than Ubuntu, but good luck with that.

teaker1s
December 16th, 2005, 06:05 PM
'build-essential' is required to compile and in configure if you are missing a dependency it will never work.
guess it depends what you want from a computer a limited customisation ie xp or unlimited where you can change everything from a desktop to a window manager

Jason-X
December 16th, 2005, 06:19 PM
Since using Ubuntu, Linux have never been so easy for me. The package management system is excellent. So much easier than OS X and windows.

XQC
December 16th, 2005, 08:15 PM
Since using Ubuntu, Linux have never been so easy for me. The package management system is excellent. So much easier than OS X and windows. Yeah, it's much easier IF you find it in synaptic.

I have the feeling that he knows about the benefits of Synaptic but there is still software out there in the internet that you want to install and then it's getting messy. Yeah sure, ./configure, make and checkinstall should work. In theory, they should work. But most times you're lacking 3 or 4 dependencies which aren't in the reps either or are outdated.

Also with Ubuntu you are stuck with the apps' versions for 6 months - a lot of time for many apps. Backports is there but in it's current stage it just doesn't cut it (NOT a criticism to Backports but for now IMO this seems to be the state as of now). So the likes of me have to wait for an How-To in this forum to install updated software. You can argue with stability, though one should not forget that Ubuntu is supposed to be a Desktop system, not for servers.

I still prefer the OSX way, just download one file and put it to the apps folder - finished. It doesn't force you somehow to use a version of an app for X months.

Knomefan
December 16th, 2005, 09:11 PM
Yeah, it's much easier IF you find it synaptic.

I have the feeling that he knows about the benefits of Synaptic but there is still software out there in the internet that you want to install and then it's getting messy. Yeah sure, ./configure, make and checkinstall should work. In theory, they should work. But most times you're lacking 3 or 4 dependencies which aren't in the reps either or are outdated.


Could you give some examples?
I'm installing updated sofware all the time (from dapper) and most of the time it isn't a problem at all.

Btw., did you check out klik? It might be what you are looking for:
http://klik.atekon.de/

xequence
December 16th, 2005, 09:12 PM
Try windows for a month again and you will. Trust me, linux will seem great again.

deNoobius
December 16th, 2005, 09:15 PM
Yeah, it's much easier IF you find it synaptic.

I have the feeling that he knows about the benefits of Synaptic but there is still software out there in the internet that you want to install and then it's getting messy.

Don't want to be a pain, and I'm not here to claim Ubuntu is perfect, but, as long as it is a deb file, you can create a "repository" locally on your HD and have Synaptic install from there, and it will solve all the dependencies. Instructions on how to do this were referenced on this site somewhere. I've done it and it works.

aysiu
December 16th, 2005, 09:21 PM
Yeah, it's much easier IF you find it synaptic.

I have the feeling that he knows about the benefits of Synaptic but there is still software out there in the internet that you want to install and then it's getting messy. Yeah sure, ./configure, make and checkinstall should work. In theory, they should work. But most times you're lacking 3 or 4 dependencies which aren't in the reps either or are outdated. Yeah, but the OP said "simple stuff." Simple stuff is easy to install through Synaptic. Once you get beyond simple stuff, sure... Synaptic isn't the be-all and end-all.

Emerzen
December 16th, 2005, 09:24 PM
Could you give some examples?
I'm installing updated sofware all the time (from dapper) and most of the time it isn't a problem at all.

First to mind:
QDVDAuthor in repositories -> broken as is
DVDStyler -> not in repos -> broken w/ current version of MJPEGtools
(had to compile from source--to get working)
Oh-> Cinellera

Yes, I completely agree that this poster should provide details of his problem and ask for help. However, to imply that you never need to install from source is a bit absurd.

LoclynGrey
December 16th, 2005, 09:38 PM
Come on it's not really that hard to install software in Ubuntu, it just takes a bit of patience, education and then understanding. :)

Me thinks that clicking an .exe in an MS windows environment is too dangerous and open to abuse. At least under Linux people have to be reasonably "informed" before hand to install programs/make a change. Most PC "dabblers" that “so called accidentally” corrupt their MS windows installation immediately don't know where to start with Linux. Hey isn't that a good thing?

At first I thought the “sudo” command under Ubuntu was an annoying feature until i recognized the benefits by constantly using it.
> Here's a line I've heard before from a windows user. “I was just in the system folder clearing up some unused files and now my PC is not working...can you help?” lol oh joy...

patience + education = understanding.

Is the following accurate?

Common problems are experienced during an attempted Linux application installation because people are educated in doing so the Microsoft way.

And why is this?

It is because people need to learn the Linux way. I for one, have been typically guilty of trying to apply a Microsoft method in a Linux environment or even a Mac environment.

It's also fair to say that many years ago I was equally lost trying to install applications under windows but really all it took was a bit of patience and education and then came the understanding. The same process can be applied to Linux or any OS.

Edit: Google like the Ubuntu community is your friend. :)

XQC
December 16th, 2005, 09:45 PM
Could you give some examples?
I'm installing updated sofware all the time (from dapper) and most of the time it isn't a problem at all.

Btw., did you check out klik? It might be what you are looking for:
http://klik.atekon.de/
How do you exactly update software from dapper? By editing sources.list oder downloading manually?

Yeah, I know klik and I really hope that it will get popular in some day.
Though I have to say, they really should consider a redesign of their page because it isn't that clearly laid out at all. Something like addons.mozilla.org would be really nice as a design (for example Top Rated apps, etc.).

I don't have problems at all as of now with any app. But my worry is that I'm still SO dependent of this board. If this community wouldn't exist, I' would have said Goodbye to Linux long ago. I hardly use any Windows boards.
For one example the music-player Banshee. If there wasn't an How-to here somewhere from one user, I would've been lost.
I can't really expect from one user to type various install commands because they are not logical - you have to learn them. But it is logical for everyone when you move the downloaded file to the apps folder. Simple like that.

Another thing is, the repos have to be maintained by other users or developers, so there is again a dependence on other people. The internet has not to be maintained. Though I agree there, that this is a bless and a curse, you're more vulnerable to malware. I give you that point.

As for me, I would immediately buy a Mac if I would have the money ;)
But all in all Ubuntu is my second favorite OS.

curuxz
December 16th, 2005, 09:47 PM
I'm sorry but this is stupid a 14 year old trashing linux in favour of windows and we are all suposed to rush to defend his totaly unrealistic comments?!

Apt is far far easyer than any windows install I have no idea what your trying to do but you realy don't seem to have thought your comments out very well.

Knomefan
December 16th, 2005, 09:52 PM
How do you exactly update software from dapper? By editing sources.list oder downloading manually?

I simply have the dapper deb-src in my sources.list. This way I can easily build from source using the great tools apt provides (For example apt-get build-dep). It's really quite easy and jdong is about to release a skript that should do all this stuff automatically for you anyway.



I can't really expect from one user to type various install commands because they are not logical - you have to learn them. But it is logical for everyone when you move the downloaded file to the apps folder. Simple like that.

Hm, I never found the OSX way particularly simple or logical. And of course you don't have the advantages that having a central repository provides, most notably having one central point for updates. But I see where you are coming from and I really think that klik could be a solution to these problems.



Another thing is, the repos have to be maintained by other users or developers, so there is again a dependence on other people. The internet has not to be maintained. Though I agree there, that this is a bless and a curse, you're more vulnerable to malware. I give you that point.
Not only that, having software specifically packaged for a distro should at least in theory also enhance stability. And exes and installers don't get build by themeselves either.

aysiu
December 16th, 2005, 09:58 PM
For one example the music-player Banshee. If there wasn't an How-to here somewhere from one user, I would've been lost.


As for me, I would immediately buy a Mac if I would have the money ;)
But all in all Ubuntu is my second favorite OS. I don't see these two statements going together. Maybe you think I'm an idiot, but I had to Google a lot to figure out some basic stuff on Mac OS X--like installing software!

I would download a .dmg, double-click it, get prompted for the password, and then go through a Windows-like wizard. After that, I assumed the application was installed. A funny white disk appeared on the desktop, and inside was an icon for the application. If I double-clicked that icon, the application would open up. If I trashed the white disk, the application would close and be gone forever.

I had to do a Google search to find out how to install applications in Mac OS X. Apparently (and how anyone is supposed to know this is beyond me), you're supposed to open the white disk and then drag the application icon to the Applications folder and then move the white disk to the trash.

That's not intuitive at all.

What's new is always difficult.

If we lived in a Ubuntu world, people like you would be writing posts like this in a Windows forum saying, "I don't get Windows' way of installing software. In Ubuntu, I just click on the Gnome menu, select Add Applications and check off the ones I want. They automatically install. In Windows, I have to track down some .exe file somewhere on the internet, hope it's not corrupt or full of spyware, find a way to unzip it if I don't already have an archiving program on my computer, and then click through a bunch of options I don't understand and then possibly have to reboot my computer. Sometimes I'm bugged about it being a trial version and having to register the product and type in some special code."

It's all about perspective, experience, and comfort.

LoclynGrey
December 16th, 2005, 10:12 PM
If we lived in a Ubuntu world, people like you would be writing posts like this in a Windows forum saying, "I don't get Windows' way of installing software. In Ubuntu, I just click on the Gnome menu, select Add Applications and check off the ones I want. They automatically install. In Windows, I have to track down some .exe file somewhere on the internet, hope it's not corrupt or full of spyware, find a way to unzip it if I don't already have an archiving program on my computer, and then click through a bunch of options I don't understand and then possibly have to reboot my computer. Sometimes I'm bugged about it being a trial version and having to register the product and type in some special code."

Dude that is so true, well written.:)

tanari
December 16th, 2005, 10:20 PM
in windows I spent most of my time for checking system with anti*virus/spyware/trojan/malware/more/more/more/...... with all these apps cpu always was around 90-100% load (old duron).

The most popular apps is possible to install in 2-3 clicks in ubuntu ("Add Applications" app)

GNOME interface is much simplier, and very easy to use.
With linux I don't need to use any pirate software, there are many free alternatives.

P.S. Rhythmbox, Quod Libet and Banshee are really best audio apps, and don't know any alternatives in windows :).

XQC
December 16th, 2005, 10:36 PM
If we lived in a Ubuntu world, people like you would be writing posts like this in a Windows forum saying, "I don't get Windows' way of installing software. In Ubuntu, I just click on the Gnome menu, select Add Applications and check off the ones I want. They automatically install. In Windows, I have to track down some .exe file somewhere on the internet, hope it's not corrupt or full of spyware, find a way to unzip it if I don't already have an archiving program on my computer, and then click through a bunch of options I don't understand and then possibly have to reboot my computer. Sometimes I'm bugged about it being a trial version and having to register the product and type in some special code."

It's all about perspective, experience, and comfort.
I must agree, maybe I'm already too used to Windows.

Though it doesn't get clear in my previous posts but I really feel comfortable with Ubuntu. It's just a hardware problem here and there (like lacking hardware support for my scanner that I use very often but that's not Ubuntus fault). I also find it much prettier than Windows! Even my friends say that my setup looks beautiful. But then there's this sentence coming: "But, eh, Linux, you really must be a computer geek, right?"
I hope Ubuntu will come out of this Linux-Geek image someday.


P.S. Rhythmbox, Quod Libet and Banshee are really best audio apps, and don't know any alternatives in windows
iTunes?
The only-for-mp3s-and-mp4s "feature" aside, it's still my favorite of all. First there's the equalizer that enhances the sound to a MUCH better state. And then, of course, the flawless iPod-support but that's not a surprise ;)
With all these players I have the problem that they can't handle large libraries without many lags by searching something.
But I'm really looking forward when Banshee hits the 1.0 line and has a) smart playlists and b) stabilized iPod-Support (isn't working for me with the latest version, unfortunately)

prizrak
December 17th, 2005, 12:15 AM
What is this whole building from source thing? The only time I ever touched source on this machine was when I was installing DC++ for Linux and that was from CVS anyways. I found some apps not in the repos (or some newer ones that had real functionality enhancements) but I've always found them to be at the very least packaged with .rpm though .debs are hard to come by.

aysiu
December 17th, 2005, 12:52 AM
iTunes?
The only-for-mp3s-and-mp4s "feature" aside, it's still my favorite of all. First there's the equalizer that enhances the sound to a MUCH better state. And then, of course, the flawless iPod-support but that's not a surprise ;)
With all these players I have the problem that they can't handle large libraries without many lags by searching something. The lag in re-scanning the library is definitely a downer. I do like, though, that what's in the library is synched to what's actually there. I've messed up my iTunes library so much (either by deleting songs from the library and not remembering to delete the file as well or copying and pasting in songs without adding them to the library) that I have way too many duplicates.

I have yet to find a Linux player that's iTunes' equal. In some ways, AmaroK is more advanced than iTunes (I like the lyrics-fetching and global keyboard shortcuts), but AmaroK is very slow to scan my entire collection.

Also, at first, I hated the idea that iTunes wouldn't count a song as being played until I heard the whole song, but now I realize this is a good thing. AmaroK counts a song as played even if I hear only the first second and skip to the next song, so I can't use play count as any sort of gauge for how much I like a song (without manually rating things).

I'd say just about the only application I miss from Windows is iTunes, but global keyboard shortcuts are a definite plus that make up for other things.

23meg
December 17th, 2005, 12:54 AM
In some ways, AmaroK is more advanced than iTunes (I like the lyrics-fetching and global keyboard shortcuts), but AmaroK is very slow to scan my entire collection.Did you try it with mysql instead of sqlite? That makes things much faster.

aysiu
December 17th, 2005, 01:03 AM
Did you try it with mysql instead of sqlite? That makes things much faster. I'll try it. It looks scary. I don't know much about databases, but I'll play around. The worst that could happen is I break my Ubuntu installation, right?

Is there a way to have AmaroK count track plays by the end of the song being reached, as opposed to the beginning being played? If not, I'm just going to stick with JuK, I think.

xequence
December 17th, 2005, 01:39 AM
If we lived in a Ubuntu world, people like you would be writing posts like this in a Windows forum saying, "I don't get Windows' way of installing software. In Ubuntu, I just click on the Gnome menu, select Add Applications and check off the ones I want. They automatically install. In Windows, I have to track down some .exe file somewhere on the internet, hope it's not corrupt or full of spyware, find a way to unzip it if I don't already have an archiving program on my computer, and then click through a bunch of options I don't understand and then possibly have to reboot my computer. Sometimes I'm bugged about it being a trial version and having to register the product and type in some special code."

It's all about perspective, experience, and comfort.


I am going to save that to a text file to quote sometime in a couple years.

Pure quoting bliss.

23meg
December 17th, 2005, 01:46 AM
I'll try it. It looks scary. I don't know much about databases, but I'll play around. The worst that could happen is I break my Ubuntu installation, right?Not even that is very likely. Refer to the amarok website and/or the documentation for setting up mysql solely for use with amarok, it's quite simple.



Is there a way to have AmaroK count track plays by the end of the song being reached, as opposed to the beginning being played?Not an offline solution that I know of, but when you use the last.fm (http://www.last.fm) service with amarok, that's just about what you get.

AdamZ
December 17th, 2005, 01:59 AM
Not an offline solution that I know of, but when you use the last.fm service with amarok, that's just about what you get.
It's usually (in every player I've used with it, never tried amarok) submitted when you've listened to at least half of the song.

23meg
December 17th, 2005, 05:04 AM
It's usually (in every player I've used with it, never tried amarok) submitted when you've listened to at least half of the song.
That's why I said "just about"; it also depends on the length of the song.

Arktis
December 17th, 2005, 05:43 AM
Well, I run into problems quite regularly when compiling software. But I also know (for the most part)
a.) what exactly it is that I'm doing
b.) how to interpret the error messages that tell me I'm missing a package
c.) how to use search engines and forums when I get error messages I can't decipher
d.) how to use parameters and when to use them. Tip!: './configure --help' is sometimes very useful! :rolleyes:
e.) how to edit
f.) how to manage NOT to screw up some part of my system and then forget that I did it and instead blame the OS when something goes wrong.

Maybe you should just go buy this book: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=104816

BatsotO
December 17th, 2005, 06:41 AM
Let my get you straight. Instaling in windows is much simpler, even when you dont want to install it, some happy people out there will gladly do that for you. Just use internet explorer and you'll get gator. if you never use windows, those are called spamware. yes it simpler.
How can it be simpler?
You dont have to chose between tar.gz (not my favorite) deb (somekinda my favorite) or rpm (what is this anyway).
You dont have to find it.
You dont have to compile it.
You dont have to want it.
All you have to do is live with it.
Oh .. you can try uninstall it but it's not simple.

GreyFox503
December 17th, 2005, 06:50 AM
I actually think Windows is better to use.
Windows is easier to learn. With everything double clicked and run .exes, you don't have to learn much to use your computer. But that leaves you with a scarce amount of knowledge about how your system operates, and makes it more difficult to do anything Microsoft didn't anticipate. Daily use of the computer is actually slower.

UNIX/Linux systems are easier to use. It takes longer to learn, but when you're done, you know more and have a higher level of control over your computer. Daily tasks and routines are faster and easier, but not intuitive to learn. Try using vi. It seems extremely user unfriendly, and you might think, "why not just make it like notepad?" That's missing the point. People who know vi can edit much faster than notepad users, but it takes a time investment to learn it.

Disclaimer: My opinions above. I have not used vi, but have seen it used effectively. Ubuntu has gedit if you want notepad. :)

aysiu
December 17th, 2005, 07:03 AM
greyfox53, I'm on your wavelength--there's what's discoverable and what's efficient. I've found the command-line to be far more efficient than GUI for a lot of things.

Recently, at our workplace, we switched from an old database that was in terminal mode (all keyboard--a lot of F-keys) to one that's totally GUI and that does not have keyboard shortcuts for everything (i.e., you must use the mouse for certain tasks).

Guess which one is better for productivity.

Just about every single data entry task takes at least twice as long to do in the new system. However, people (especially the computer illiterate) have generally liked using the new system better because it looks prettier and they can waste time fumbling with the mouse for ten seconds instead of pressing two keys in one second to accomplish the same task.

The GUI database takes longer to load screens, crashes more often, and asks for confirmation after every time you save. The terminal database was as quick as you could type, almost never crashed, and saved once you entered all the way through.

I'm not saying that we should do away with GUI apps altogether, but discoverability has its limitations... especially when it comes to productivity and efficiency.

I'll give you another real-life example that's more immediately relevant. There's a set of programs (in the repositories) I like to install after every Ubuntu installation I do. Do I pop open Synaptic and search for them all and mark them all for installation? No. I have a text file that has the words
sudo apt-get install blah blah blah blah blah where each "blah" is the name of a program.

In Windows, to install a set of programs, I would either have to somehow write a script that installs them all (which would require me to know how to program and debug), have a CD full of setup.exe files and click each one through the wizards, or create some image of a Windows installation (that may not work for every computer configuration).

With Ubuntu, I can copy and paste my text file into a terminal, type in my sudo password and walk away. When I come back an hour later, everything's installed.

GreyFox503
December 17th, 2005, 07:15 AM
aysiu, your description made me laugh. I actually DO have a CD filled with hundreds of megabytes of Windows exes. Every time I installed something in Windows, I would save the file, and then when I reformatted (at least once every six months), I would burn them to disc.

Then I would sit down and click next about 500 times, as I ran each installer over and over. And you know what I thought? I thought that was a huge improvement! I thought I was sooo smart rather than having to find and download all those programs again. :)

When I first started using Ubuntu I figured out what you just said: that I could write a script to download & install almost ALL of my programs for me, I just about wet myself. As long as you have a broadband connection, this is the ultimate timesaver.

Even if you didn't have broadband, I think you could still just fill a disc with *.debs from the repositories, then run something like:


cd /media/cdrom
sudo dpkg -i *.deb
That would still be much faster and you'd just have to download some dependencies.

aysiu
December 17th, 2005, 07:19 AM
aysiu, your description made me laugh. I actually DO have a CD filled with hundreds of megabytes of Windows exes. Every time I installed something in Windows, I would save the file, and then when I reformatted (at least once every six months), I would burn them to disc. Same here. Also thought I was clever. I didn't have a CD, though. I had an external hard drive with a folder called "installer files."



When I first started using Ubuntu I figured out what you just said: that I could write a script to download & install almost ALL of my programs for me, I just about wet myself. As long as you have a broadband connection, this is the ultimate timesaver. Yes. As a matter of fact, if you don't have broadband, using Ubuntu can be a big pain in butt. I'm not clever enough to actually write a script, but even just having the program names in a text file I can copy and paste into a terminal is time-saver enough for me.



Even if you didn't have broadband, I think you could still just fill a disc with *.debs from the repositories, then run something like:


cd /media/cdrom
sudo dpkg -i *.deb
That would still be much faster and you'd just have to download some dependencies. Something like this? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AptMoveHowto

GreyFox503
December 17th, 2005, 07:37 AM
Wow, I didn't know there was a wiki page like that. I should browse through the wiki more often.

At first, I thought that Linux really would suck w/o an internet connection. And that's partially true. But when's the last time you installed windows while disconnected? Unless you had store-bought software on CDs or pre-burned them, Windows is almost useless.

That said, many people DO have store bought software. But linux doesn't work around that model. In fact, the advent of the internet was and still is extremely crucial in developing free software like linux. Because there's no "linux headquarters" in redmond or anywhere else making all this stuff.

Linux, by nature, is kind of inherently tied to the internet. It's too bad for those who don't have it, but at least the default install for most distros (like Ubuntu) comes packed with as much great software as they can fit on a CD, unlike the desert that is a default XP installation.

commodore
December 17th, 2005, 09:34 AM
I do use synaptic but it doesn't have all the apps I need.

LOL this thread got so big, I didn't even read it through right now.

kairu0
December 17th, 2005, 10:16 AM
At first, I thought that Linux really would suck w/o an internet connection. And that's partially true. But when's the last time you installed windows while disconnected? Unless you had store-bought software on CDs or pre-burned them, Windows is almost useless.

That's a point that caught my attention some time ago, too.

I am a desktop user. I do not embed linux on any chip or install it on some LAN fileserver without WAN access.

For me (your case may be different) it almost seems cruel to deprive Linux of Internet access. Granted, it's perfectly possible and many people do it, but we're talking about an OS that thrives on remotely-connected people communicating, uploading, downloading, and patching each other's work via the Internet. Isolating myself from that almost seems like buying a cellular phone and then moving into a bomb shelter.

Windows, on the other hand, is the polar opposite. Depriving Windows from Internet access is like putting up a safety gate around your stove to prevent it from getting in and burning itself.

prizrak
December 17th, 2005, 02:40 PM
Windows is easier to learn. With everything double clicked and run .exes, you don't have to learn much to use your computer. But that leaves you with a scarce amount of knowledge about how your system operates, and makes it more difficult to do anything Microsoft didn't anticipate. Daily use of the computer is actually slower.

UNIX/Linux systems are easier to use. It takes longer to learn, but when you're done, you know more and have a higher level of control over your computer. Daily tasks and routines are faster and easier, but not intuitive to learn. Try using vi. It seems extremely user unfriendly, and you might think, "why not just make it like notepad?" That's missing the point. People who know vi can edit much faster than notepad users, but it takes a time investment to learn it.

Disclaimer: My opinions above. I have not used vi, but have seen it used effectively. Ubuntu has gedit if you want notepad. :)
I actually disagree, I know many computer retards (not even illiterate) who couldn't do ANYTHING in Windows not even change a simple setting like displaying/hiding common folder tasks pane (my friend almost had a heart attack when they disappeared). By the same token my techonologically averse mother managed to use my Linux box (Hoary at the time) to get someone's phone number out of my address book. She wasn't confused by it in the least. I think as far as usage goes Ubuntu at the very least is very intuitive and easy to learn. System administration however is damn near impossble to learn in either system w/o being technologically inclined.

curuxz
December 17th, 2005, 02:54 PM
I agree with prizrak on this, and think this is another anfounded issue. If linux was tought in schools then windows would be the one looking complex, as it stands I think linux lends it self to new users more because of its good layout and near invincablity when it comes to viruses, spyware and for non-root users configuration is protected so they cant screw things up!

Zonkle
December 17th, 2005, 03:19 PM
I don't understand why you wouldn't use Synaptic. It makes installation incredibly easy.

Because not every body has Broadband ;) ... :(

I'm still fighting to get Multimedia and Internal Modem works in Ubuntu ....... maybe I will just wait until I get ADSL :).

Installing programs is very easy if you have ADSL, but if you don't, it is a nightmare of errors for ever :D .. maybe I was too dramatic :razz: .... but I don't think normal users (coming from Windows for example) will like Ubuntu because it is hard to install programs if they don't have Broadband .... in Windows it is just one file to install ..... + Internet always works in Windows because Winmodems are made for that ..... + zillion of installations to enable the Multimedia in Ubuntu (DVD,Mp3 !,Divx........).

I love Linux very much .... but I wish it will be more easier some how for newbies in Linux like me:)

I think the biggest problem is Winmodem support ..... don't tell me it is easy!

prizrak
December 17th, 2005, 04:39 PM
Because not every body has Broadband ;) ... :(

I'm still fighting to get Multimedia and Internal Modem works in Ubuntu ....... maybe I will just wait until I get ADSL :).

Installing programs is very easy if you have ADSL, but if you don't, it is a nightmare of errors for ever :D .. maybe I was too dramatic :razz: .... but I don't think normal users (coming from Windows for example) will like Ubuntu because it is hard to install programs if they don't have Broadband .... in Windows it is just one file to install ..... + Internet always works in Windows because Winmodems are made for that ..... + zillion of installations to enable the Multimedia in Ubuntu (DVD,Mp3 !,Divx........).

I love Linux very much .... but I wish it will be more easier some how for newbies in Linux like me:)

I think the biggest problem is Winmodem support ..... don't tell me it is easy!
I think aysiu said that before, "Ubuntu is a great broadband OS". It does suck on a modem no question bout that. Actually multimedia in Windows isn't any easier, on my Windows reinstalls I have to install RealAlternative, Quicktime Alternative, FFDshow, AC3filter, Winamp. Plus having to change the WMP defaults to not let it take over everything, MPC and Winamp need to be configured as well. And all of the those run though their own wizards which makes it a much longer install than apt-get and then dling w32codecs from the interweb and unzipping them into a directory. Plus here everything is defaulted to Totem and if you install XMMS it will be your default audio player (unless it's realplayer) and Totem will handle all your local video (cept realplayer) and everything online is handled by mplayer plug in :) So the only thing screwing it up for us is RealPlayer but I hate it anyways :)

Dr. E
December 28th, 2005, 06:35 AM
(The reader is cautioned. I am officially irate.)

I came to Ubuntu with a very open mind, having been disgrunted with Windows, and not being afraid to use the command line or search for instructions online. At first things looked great; the installer and partitioner worked very well. The browser and e-mail worked without much configuration. I figured out how to manage files, mount disks, intall programs I use quite a bit, and people on Ubuntu Forums were very helpful.

PROBLEM 1: My printer was recognized by Ubuntu after installation but the driver didn't work. (You may search this forum for my pleas for help.) I found drivers online, but the installation instructions referred to things that don't exist in Ubuntu. One helpful penguinist suggested that the directions were referring to a Foomatic installation. Finally, it looked like I had the answer I needed, so I installed Foomatic only to have it not recognize my password even after a brand new installation. So foomatic has bugs which keeps me from getting my printer working.

PROBLEM 2: You need to realize that I write for a living and need a printer and word processor, more specifically I need WordPerfect. Sorry, nothing beats it.
Before deciding on Linux I found out about WP version 8 for Linux, bought a copy, and followed the instructions online for installation (jamesthornton.com/linux/FAQ/WordPerfect-Linux-FAQ/nondownloadwp8.html).

The instructions looked looked self-explanatory. Then I entered dependency hell. During WP installation I was told I needed a slew of other packages before I could install WP. My blood pressure had still not risen, so still undaunted I tried the Synaptic Package Manager to install the files required by WP (libc5, xlib6g, etc.). However, libc5 indicated that I needed to uninstall WP in order to install libc5, yet when I tried this I was told there was a broken file and that I needed to use the broken package filter tool. At this point my stomach began to churn, especially since my search through every Ubuntu menu for such a tool came up empty.

A posting to this forum states that sudo apt-get -f install ought to take care of the broken file, so it there appeared to be a glimmer of hope after all. However, running this command gives its own %*&# error message:

E: The package wp-full needs to be reinstalled, but I can't find an archive for it.

Well, why not? It's sitting in the same @*&$ place it's always been and supposedly was never installed to begin with! From what I can tell this completes the circle; I can't install WP because of problems X and Y which themselves can't be resolved without installing WP!

At this point, I feel lucky that I am not a dog owner or I may have had the Humane Society knocking on my door. I am seriously considering bagging the whole Ubuntu thing and go back to Windows and live with the viruses, having to reinstall it every 6 months, etc. At least I can get my crucial programs and hardware up and running!!

Linux has always been ready for the desktop for the computer saavy. Ubuntu appeared to make it ready for someone like me who doesn't mind spending some time figuring things out. My experience to date clearly demonstrates that Linux is still for computer wizzes not the average Joe.

Madpilot
December 28th, 2005, 06:46 AM
Hmmm... this seems like a 3rd-party problem - namely WordPerfect's - not Ubuntu's. What sort of customer service do WP's makers offer?

There's also a perfectly functional word processor included with Ubuntu - OOo2 Write. That said, as an Opera loyalist, I understand the need to have "the best" even though there's an alternative pre-installed - Firefox, in my case... :)

Also, if you pasted the error messages here instead of just ranting someone might even help you solve your problem with WP.

dueY
December 28th, 2005, 06:51 AM
Open Office has always worked fine for me. And I hated Word Perfect on Windows, I suspect it would be worse on Linux as they probably put less effort into supporting the minority of their market.

23meg
December 28th, 2005, 06:54 AM
Now what I wonder is: if you decide to ask for help with your problem and paste the exact errors you're getting here, and someone helps you and it's solved and you start using WP, will you be saying "OK, I was wrong, Linux is indeed ready for the desktop"?

greymaus
December 28th, 2005, 06:58 AM
I can't imagine why you've had so much trouble with Linux and Ubuntu. And sorry I am that you have.

I've run Linux of one sort or another for about 10 years; and I've found Ubuntu to be the easiest one to install and use. All the dependencies of the various extra utilities I installed have been automatically handled by Ubuntu. (Even the problem I was having recently with a music editor turned out to be due to a stupid error on my part, rather than something intrinsically wrong with the software.)

Part of that I think is because I've stuck to native Linux utilities. An admirable substitute for WordPerfect, in my opinion, is the word processor that's part of OpenOffice--Office Writer. I've used it for all sorts of writing assignments and it's never let me down.

It all comes down to this: There's no "standard experience" when it comes to computers...

Dr. E
December 28th, 2005, 06:58 AM
Hmmm... this seems like a 3rd-party problem - namely WordPerfect's - not Ubuntu's. What sort of customer service do WP's makers offer?

WP doesn't support it anymore. I have read quite a few post where the gist is Ubuntu is fine it those 3rd parties that haven't done their work. Unfortunately, Ubuntu can't be a completely self-contained system. In the real world people have printers and software that are 3rd party.



Also, if you pasted the error messages here instead of just ranting someone might even help you solve your problem with WP.

OK here it is although the errors are now different than the ones I originally got.

dre@home:~/Desktop$ sudo dpkg -i wp-full_8.1-12_i386.deb
(Reading database ... 76539 files and directories currently installed.)
Preparing to replace wp-full 8.1-12 (using wp-full_8.1-12_i386.deb) ...
Unpacking replacement wp-full ...
/var/lib/dpkg/info/wp-full.postrm: line 5: type1inst: command not found
/var/lib/dpkg/info/wp-full.postrm: line 5: /usr/X11R6/bin/mkfontdir: No such file or directory
dpkg: warning - old post-removal script returned error exit status 127
dpkg - trying script from the new package instead ...
/var/lib/dpkg/tmp.ci/postrm: line 5: type1inst: command not found
/var/lib/dpkg/tmp.ci/postrm: line 5: /usr/X11R6/bin/mkfontdir: No such file or directory
dpkg: error processing wp-full_8.1-12_i386.deb (--install):
subprocess new post-removal script returned error exit status 127
/var/lib/dpkg/tmp.ci/postrm: line 5: type1inst: command not found
/var/lib/dpkg/tmp.ci/postrm: line 5: /usr/X11R6/bin/mkfontdir: No such file or directory
dpkg: error while cleaning up:
subprocess post-removal script returned error exit status 127
Errors were encountered while processing:
wp-full_8.1-12_i386.deb

Dr. E
December 28th, 2005, 07:01 AM
Open Office has always worked fine for me. And I hated Word Perfect on Windows, I suspect it would be worse on Linux as they probably put less effort into supporting the minority of their market.


WP 8 was good, 9-11 were trash and 12 is good. There are two things I NEED in a word processor: reveal codes and keystroke copying macros.

23meg
December 28th, 2005, 07:03 AM
An admirable substitute for WordPerfect, in my opinion, is the word processor that's part of OpenOffice--Office Writer. AFAIK it also opens Wordperfect files.

Dr. E
December 28th, 2005, 07:07 AM
Now what I wonder is: if you decide to ask for help with your problem and paste the exact errors you're getting here, and someone helps you and it's solved and you start using WP, will you be saying "OK, I was wrong, Linux is indeed ready for the desktop"?


Sorry to be so negative. I've spent the last week trying to get the printer working, and in spite of the best efforts of a user on this list it is still a large paperweight. Trying to get WP up and running with so may errors and problems was the last straw. **IF** I can get both working my opinion will be that Ubuntu is great for the average Joe who wants to use the preinstalled and automatically installed programs and whose hardware is automatically installed. Beyond that it's ready for the desktop if you are a computer wiz or are willing to get lots of help from people who are.

Dr. E
December 28th, 2005, 07:10 AM
AFAIK it also opens Wordperfect files.

So does Word, but the formatting is always screwed up. It's more than a matter of file compatibility. WP simply has features other processors don't.

Masteroc
December 28th, 2005, 07:13 AM
sorry, but i have to sympathise with his problem on getting printers to work.
I am trying to print over a network with no success. But that is another thread!

Dr. E
December 28th, 2005, 07:14 AM
Also, if you pasted the error messages here instead of just ranting someone might even help you solve your problem with WP.


Alright, I'll ask for some help. I'm assuming that parts of WP were installed, but not all which is why the package is broken. How do I get rid of the partial installation? After that, what is the best approach to dependency problems?

23meg
December 28th, 2005, 07:15 AM
I'm sorry that you're having problems and that I'm unable to help, and I understand your frustration, but your view is too self centric. You put whether or not you can get your hardware and proprietary software running on Ubuntu as your only criteria for whether Linux is "ready for the desktop" or not.

I hope you get it solved, but before that I hope you consider open source alternatives to WP seriously if you already haven't, and that people drop this "Linux is not ready for the desktop" line basing it on nothing other than their personal frustrations.

BTW, check out this FAQ if you haven't: http://linuxmafia.com/wpfaq/

23meg
December 28th, 2005, 07:17 AM
Alright, I'll ask for some help.
I suggest you do it in a separate, appropriately titled thread, not in this one.

To get rid of the partial installation, remove the WP package with "sudo apt-get remove" and then do
sudo apt-get -f install
sudo apt-get update

emperor
December 28th, 2005, 07:19 AM
WP 8 was good, 9-11 were trash and 12 is good. There are two things I NEED in a word processor: reveal codes and keystroke copying macros.
OpenOffice 2.0 has macros and can read wp document files directly.

There is also some work in the oo community to implement the "reveal codes" feature. For example there are some reveal code macros here:

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/hillview/OOo/

Future OO project here:
http://wp.openoffice.org (http://wp.openoffice.org/rcodes.html)

Dr. E
December 28th, 2005, 07:24 AM
I'm sorry that you're having problems and that I'm unable to help, and I understand your frustration, but your view is too self centric. You put whether or not you can get your hardware and proprietary software running on Ubuntu as your only criteria for whether Linux is "ready for the desktop" or not.

WP problems aside, there is no such thing as non-proprietary hardware. The Forum is full of people with hardware compatibility problems that raise serious questions about Linux's suitability. Using the term self-centric is a bit of an ad hominem attack wouldn't you agree?[-X



BTW, check out this FAQ if you haven't: http://linuxmafia.com/wpfaq/

Yes, that is one of the sites I found information on that made me feel WP would work before I got it and tried installing it.

23meg
December 28th, 2005, 07:33 AM
there is no such thing as non-proprietary hardware.
There is. Many companies open their hardware specs, so that people can write open source drivers for them. But the majority don't. This can change, if Linux gets adopted more and if users put enough pressure on the companies.

The Forum is full of people with hardware compatibility problems that raise serious questions about Linux's suitability.I'm not ignoring the problems; what I mean is that the source of those hardware problems is the fact that the specs aren't opened and drivers aren't provided for a lot of hardware. Most of it isn't Linux's fault but that of the companies. If you want this to change, there are things you can do:

- Make your hardware vendor know that you want working Linux drivers / open specs.

- Use Linux, encourage others to use it, get organized, spread the love, so that adoption will get faster and companies start caring more.

- Do research before buying hardware and prefer vendors who provide Linux drivers.

Using the term self-centric is a bit of an ad hominem attack wouldn't you agree?I disagree; I do find your initial view of the situation self centric and I've stated it in a reasonable manner. "Self-centric" isn't an offensive term per se, and I haven't used it in an offensive context.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_Hominem

Dr. E
December 28th, 2005, 07:53 AM
There is. Many companies open their hardware specs, so that people can write open source drivers for them. But the majority don't. This can change, if Linux gets adopted more and if users put enough pressure on the companies.
I'm not ignoring the problems; what I mean is that the source of those hardware problems is the fact that the specs aren't opened and drivers aren't provided by a lot of hardware. Most of it isn't Linux's fault but that of the companies.


I agree that the reason Linux isn't ready for the desktop is that companies don't open their specs and Linux isn't that common yet. I have no doubt that the Linux developers would immediately make all hardware compatible if they were able to. However, the hardware/software incompatibility problems in my view are still the major issue that do make it unsuitable for most people's desktops.

oygle
December 28th, 2005, 07:54 AM
I am seriously considering bagging the whole Ubuntu thing and go back to Windows and live with the viruses, having to reinstall it every 6 months, etc. At least I can get my crucial programs and hardware up and running!!

Linux has always been ready for the desktop for the computer saavy. Ubuntu appeared to make it ready for someone like me who doesn't mind spending some time figuring things out. My experience to date clearly demonstrates that Linux is still for computer wizzes not the average Joe.

I'm sorry to hear of the problems with WP. I'm no Linux expert, and have only just installed Ubuntu, but it would appear unwise to categorise Linux generically, simply because of problems with one distribution.

There are many 'Linux desktops', see http://distrowatch.com/

Oygle

ninotob
December 28th, 2005, 07:58 AM
There is also some work in the oo community to implement the "reveal codes" feature. For example there are some reveal code macros here:


Awesome. No matter what anyone says, I'll always have a soft spot for "reveal codes". It can really help resolve what are otherwise intractable formatting problems.

When I first went out on my own and opened my own office, I too wanted to use weordperfect. I even spent $80 on Corel Linux with Corel Wordperfect -- it's gathering dust somewhere -- I can't recall why I didn't like Corel Linux anymore but I didn't like it. And WP seemed buggy if I recall, but I was comparing it to my WP on DOS days.

ninotob
December 28th, 2005, 08:18 AM
I agree that the reason Linux isn't ready for the desktop is that companies don't open their specs and Linux isn't that common yet. I have no doubt that the Linux developers would immediately make all hardware compatible if they were able to. However, the hardware/software incompatibility problems in my view are still the major issue that do make it unsuitable for most people's desktops.

I've run my office on linux for three years. I use it at home too. I haven't had a windows machine for years. But the first couple years of real usage (my dual boot stage) were rough, not just because I had to relearn everything, but linux distros were much rougher back then.

For example, right now you can use k3b for CD burning and it's a very intuitive gui. I had to cut my teeth on the command line for that. I learned a lot of stuff the hard way. Nowadays, it seems like I don't even have to do anything to have a flawless system running. Just pop in a CD, fire up synaptic and pow -- it all works.

To people who put in their time when linux was hard with a capital "H", current distros seem like a no-brainer. We see a post like yours and roll our eyes thinking "how much easier can it actually be?" I'd say that's mostly our problem and something we should try to be better about. More importantly, we've learned to take the easy road too. Buying a video card? Get nVidia and don't worry. Want a printer? Check the compatability list: http://www.linuxprinting.org/ Heck, I've stood in stores googling products (e.g.: "linux <distro_name> <product name>"). I've built somekind of paranormal hardware sense as well, it's almost like I can look at a box in the store and just feel whether it's compatible or not. You get good w/ hardware eventually. Last, we've accepted that some things aren't going to run on linux without headaches or even at all. We accept it.

But acceptance is something you have to do with every OS. I can tell you right now that until Apple puts middle-click-paste, sloppy mouse focus (scroll background w/o losing foreground), and virtual desktops into OSX, I won't consider it user friendly. Period. End of Story. But that's my bias. I can accept the fact I won't be playing encrypted WMV files anytime soon on Linux, but in important respects, it beats the tar out of Windows or OSX.

TheRealEdwin
December 28th, 2005, 08:18 AM
I will quote someone else that I know has decades of experience for my reasons why I agree with the topic.



duckilama wrote:
It's probably the most misused "thing" in computing. It's great for servers, firewalls, proxies, embedded systems, and plenty of other stuff that a day-to-day _user_ will never see. For a general use PC, it blows. It's also great for the following people types: tinkerers, programmers, scripters, network/system admins, scientific researchers, and, primarily, masochists.

This is quite accurate, but only if you've used MacOSX and know what desktop UNIX is supposed to be like. Ubuntu Linux is maybe 75-80% of the way to where OSX is today. Close, and very impressive for Linux, and impressive enough for me to allocate a 30gb slice on my new drive for, but significantly less impressive than OSX.

People who tell you that Linux OSes are ready for desktop use, and you are not a deep geek willing to sacrifice ease of use are:
a) lying to you
b) have seriously drunk the koolaid
c) offering free tech support for the myriad of problems you will have

Linux requires a serious amount of knowledge and investment in learning - even Redhat and Mandrake and SuSE, for no appreciable gain.

bscbrit
December 28th, 2005, 08:35 AM
I have to side with the OP on this one - but perhaps not for the reasons that you all might think. I am an experience computer user and have used Ubuntu (on 6 computers networked together) for about 12 months. No, I'm not an expert but I am not stupid either.

Dr E has had several threads running in this forum. I and others have tried to help him but we have been unsuccessul. So Dr E has a valid viewpoint - Ubuntu is not ready for his Desktop. The problems were not entirely unexpected (there is a warning against the use of Lexmark printers in a sticky thread at the head of this forum) but Ubuntu has failed from Dr E's perspective. Of course that is not Ubuntu's fault - we can blame the manufacturer for not providing support. But we cannot reasonably expect users to buy a particular set of hardware (especially when it runs under another OS) in order for him to run our favourite distro. We must learn simply to accept the fact that Ubuntu is not perfect.

Your offers to help to overcome Dr E's problems are admirable and welcome. But I think Dr E would have felt better had they been in response to his original pleas rather than in defence of Ubuntu. He has asked for help and some of us have tried to assist him. Those of you reading who know how to solve his Lexmark printer problem would have been welcomed by both the OP and myself as I rapidly ran out of helpful advice for him. However, this is partly Dr E's own fault - in his frustration during the last 48 hours he has resorted to private messages to me. I have been happy to try to help him. But it has meant that, in the last stages of this endeavour, many of you will have not been able to read about the problems and sense his growing frustration. But in the weeks preceding this final phase your help, if you know the solution to his problems, would have been invaluable.

Dr E has made a valid point but I feel that many of the responses have been rather defensive. They also each make a valid point but, nevertheless, many contribute nothing to helping Dr E move forward. Some of us are guilty of Ubuntu evangalism. I'm sorry, Ubuntu is my favourite distro but it is not perfect and does not provide the solution to Dr E's problems, or at least not in a way that the average user can take advantage of it. But we in this community must be prepared to take valid criticism on the chin. Dr E is correct in his perception of Ubuntu with his particular mix of hardware. We must live with it.

I wish Dr E success in the future. I also enjoy the support that I have received from this forum and acknowledge the contribution that each and everyone of you make. I'm here to stay.

EDIT: As I posted there appeared to be a wind change of opinion in the immediately preceding responses. However, I'm sure that some of you will, for whatever reason you feel justifies it, be smarting at some of my comments. Sorry. But flame away - I'm leaving on 2 weeks holiday! Back in mid-January when I will read this thread again!

BoyOfDestiny
December 28th, 2005, 09:18 AM
(The reader is cautioned. I am officially irate.)

I came to Ubuntu with a very open mind, having been disgrunted with Windows, and not being afraid to use the command line or search for instructions online. At first things looked great; the installer and partitioner worked very well. The browser and e-mail worked without much configuration. I figured out how to manage files, mount disks, intall programs I use quite a bit, and people on Ubuntu Forums were very helpful.

PROBLEM 1: My printer was recognized by Ubuntu after installation but the driver didn't work. (You may search this forum for my pleas for help.) I found drivers online, but the installation instructions referred to things that don't exist in Ubuntu. One helpful penguinist suggested that the directions were referring to a Foomatic installation. Finally, it looked like I had the answer I needed, so I installed Foomatic only to have it not recognize my password even after a brand new installation. So foomatic has bugs which keeps me from getting my printer working.

PROBLEM 2: You need to realize that I write for a living and need a printer and word processor, more specifically I need WordPerfect. Sorry, nothing beats it.
Before deciding on Linux I found out about WP version 8 for Linux, bought a copy, and followed the instructions online for installation (jamesthornton.com/linux/FAQ/WordPerfect-Linux-FAQ/nondownloadwp8.html).

The instructions looked looked self-explanatory. Then I entered dependency hell. During WP installation I was told I needed a slew of other packages before I could install WP. My blood pressure had still not risen, so still undaunted I tried the Synaptic Package Manager to install the files required by WP (libc5, xlib6g, etc.). However, libc5 indicated that I needed to uninstall WP in order to install libc5, yet when I tried this I was told there was a broken file and that I needed to use the broken package filter tool. At this point my stomach began to churn, especially since my search through every Ubuntu menu for such a tool came up empty.

A posting to this forum states that sudo apt-get -f install ought to take care of the broken file, so it there appeared to be a glimmer of hope after all. However, running this command gives its own %*&# error message:

E: The package wp-full needs to be reinstalled, but I can't find an archive for it.

Well, why not? It's sitting in the same @*&$ place it's always been and supposedly was never installed to begin with! From what I can tell this completes the circle; I can't install WP because of problems X and Y which themselves can't be resolved without installing WP!

At this point, I feel lucky that I am not a dog owner or I may have had the Humane Society knocking on my door. I am seriously considering bagging the whole Ubuntu thing and go back to Windows and live with the viruses, having to reinstall it every 6 months, etc. At least I can get my crucial programs and hardware up and running!!

Linux has always been ready for the desktop for the computer saavy. Ubuntu appeared to make it ready for someone like me who doesn't mind spending some time figuring things out. My experience to date clearly demonstrates that Linux is still for computer wizzes not the average Joe.

First of the topic is wrong, it should read "my" (your desktop). Ubuntu is more than ready for my desktop and laptop (and we know this doesn't imply everyone on earth).

Next, WordPerfect, linux binary compatibility is not like that of windows... If you are unwilling to use clones, there is a way to run your window's version of WordPerfect. Your options include using wine or something like qemu.
For wine, http://appdb.winehq.org/appview.php?appId=530
Outlook doesn't seem to hot, but wine has gone beta recently, instructions to get the latest for ubuntu here: http://www.winehq.org/site/download-deb

As for the printer, get a new one or write the manufacturer. Vote with your wallet.

Hope this helps you. If not stick with windows and try again when the next Ubuntu release is available.

Good luck!

r4ik
December 28th, 2005, 09:19 AM
With respect.
Linux,Ubuntu in this case, is imo all about flexebility.
Getting any OS to work fully to your needs is a no go.
Try "whatever" and you will find somethings you dont like.
When however encounterd openminded with the capebillity
to accept somethings just do not work "out of the box"
Ubuntu is close to Windows and a very userfriendly distro.
But there will never be a "Wibuntu" forget about it and even
then it would not be perfect.

bscbrit
December 28th, 2005, 09:44 AM
As for the printer, get a new one or write the manufacturer. Vote with your wallet.

!

Yes, but not very practical. If someone is starting from scratch, then they can pick their distro and their hardware. Ah, a perfect world!

Most people haven't got that luxury. They have already bought their computer, and their peripherals, and they want to try Linux. That shouldn't be too unreasonable a desire.

Of course, in future, Dr E might consider buying linux compatible hardware - but I wouldn't be surprised if he chose to buy based upon economics rather than linux evangalism.

EDIT - Yes, I'm going now!

shin
December 28th, 2005, 11:13 AM
OK here it is although the errors are now different than the ones I originally got.

dre@home:~/Desktop$ sudo dpkg -i wp-full_8.1-12_i386.deb
(Reading database ... 76539 files and directories currently installed.)
Preparing to replace wp-full 8.1-12 (using wp-full_8.1-12_i386.deb) ...
Unpacking replacement wp-full ...
/var/lib/dpkg/info/wp-full.postrm: line 5: type1inst: command not found
/var/lib/dpkg/info/wp-full.postrm: line 5: /usr/X11R6/bin/mkfontdir: No such file or directory
dpkg: warning - old post-removal script returned error exit status 127
dpkg - trying script from the new package instead ...
/var/lib/dpkg/tmp.ci/postrm: line 5: type1inst: command not found
/var/lib/dpkg/tmp.ci/postrm: line 5: /usr/X11R6/bin/mkfontdir: No such file or directory
dpkg: error processing wp-full_8.1-12_i386.deb (--install):
subprocess new post-removal script returned error exit status 127
/var/lib/dpkg/tmp.ci/postrm: line 5: type1inst: command not found
/var/lib/dpkg/tmp.ci/postrm: line 5: /usr/X11R6/bin/mkfontdir: No such file or directory
dpkg: error while cleaning up:
subprocess post-removal script returned error exit status 127
Errors were encountered while processing:
wp-full_8.1-12_i386.deb

That's pretty helpful, isn't it? Not really like some windows errors.
It got problems with installing fonts, and that problem is wrong path to mkfontdir and no type1inst command.

Check

whereis mkfontdir
if it exists go to /usr/X11R6/bin/ and make a symlink to it. e.g.

sudo ln -s /usr/bin/mkfontdir

Type1inst (which is in repos) looks not installed so just do apt-get install type1inst.

And try to install WP again.

ubuntu_demon
December 28th, 2005, 01:25 PM
I moved this thread to the community chat.

aysiu
December 28th, 2005, 01:56 PM
I've already made my thoughts known on this topic:
http://www.psychocats.net/essays/linuxdesktop.php

I also think people who want to offer support to this new user should do so in the threads asking for support, instead of in this thread.

Jimmyslim33301
December 28th, 2005, 04:19 PM
Dr. E,

Ubuntu is not everyone's cup of tea. Try the Gnome remaster of PCLinuxOS:

http://genieos.toluenterprises.com/otherstuff.html

It works with everything I've got.

mstlyevil
December 28th, 2005, 06:20 PM
Dr E, I can understand your frustration especially if Ubuntu is your first Linux distribution. Ubuntu is a great distro but it is a very young one and is not as developed as some others out there. You should consider trying Suse 10 or Linspire or some other distro that may be able to support your printer and will probally install WP Linux much easier. Just because you had one bad experience with a distro that may not have been right for your situation does not mean that Linux is not ready for the desktop. If people had to install their copy of Windows and find the right drivers to support it instead of getting them already installed on their computer, you could make the same argument for it as well. Have you ever had a driver conflict lead to a BSOD? This is the same thing as a dependency problem in Linux. If you cannot get your problems resolved in Ubuntu I recommend you give Suse 10 the evaluation version a shot. The only difference between it and the full version is you do not get free support or printed manuals. It includes all the propietary software of the full version and it is free. Sorry if I didn't use paragraphs, I just got to typing and was not paying attention.

Raoul Duke
December 28th, 2005, 06:22 PM
You could try running WordPerfect for Windows using Wine

ninotob
December 28th, 2005, 07:23 PM
Corel's wordperfect 2000 for linux actually ran under wine. Which may explain why it's such a bear to install and get working.

tseliot
December 28th, 2005, 07:41 PM
Dr. E, sorry but I think the title of your thread is not appropriate.

There are many GNU/Linux Distributions and you might be able to find the one which works best with your hardware. There are some distros which are aimed at newbies (PcLinuxOS, SimplyMepis, Linspire, Xandros, etc.) others which are aimed at server administrators, etc. Ubuntu is not Linux, it's a GNU/Linux Distribution.

You should say "Ubuntu" is not ready for the desktop instead (and I'll respect your opinion although I disagree).

Anyhow it would be even more appropriate to say that Ubuntu is not for you or your hardware. I think you shouldn't generalise.

I don't use Windows any more and I have all I need with Ubuntu. And I use it for desktop use (I have it on my laptop too).

sonny
December 28th, 2005, 07:45 PM
WP problems aside, there is no such thing as non-proprietary hardware. The Forum is full of people with hardware compatibility problems that raise serious questions about Linux's suitability. Using the term self-centric is a bit of an ad hominem attack wouldn't you agree?[-X

That is why, if you are part of the minority, you SHOULD check for compatibility issues, I know that the newest printers, scanners, all-in-one's and other gadgets from HP are fully supported in Linux through the HPLIP software. Also there's allways manufacturers that support linux, and others that don't care about us... so if you buy new hardware... make sure it is listed on the compatibility list.

And about your problem, It is a dependency problem... wich will happen most of the time you install 3rd party software that are not Linux native, but you just have to find the depencies you are looking for in google or somewhere else.