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View Full Version : Linux Desktop Readiness Thread



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tgm4883
July 17th, 2007, 04:37 PM
Yeah, people are now telling me to try it (again). I say again because as I explained in another thread, I tried it back when I first installed Ubuntu, but it didn't really work. I mean, if it did, I wouldn't be having this discussion w/you now :)

So I'm trying to figure out if I should just do dvd shrink or try K9 again. If I install K9 through apt get, or through synaptic and it doesn't work, will uninstalling it through either of those ways totally purge all of the KDE libraries from my system ? I do know about "sudo apt-get remove --purge" but still wonder if it will get rid of EVERY trace.

doug

aptitude has super cow powers

Frak
July 17th, 2007, 05:42 PM
There is no such thing as "average user". Ones must-have are others nice-to-have, and vice versa.
80 year old grandmas might have surprisingly complex uses for photo management, genealogy, VoIP, email and IM.
50 years old men might want to track the weather and find routes for their fishing trips, track the stock exchange, synchronize ther PIM/ PDA with various web services, and secretly hoard porn...
13 years old girls might want to manage their music collection, browse the web, play world of warcraft, chat with their friends, create a homepage with music and visual effects, upload games and ringtones to their cellular phones, and etc.

Non of those users think themselves to be extraordinary, yet non of them will fit the "average user" profile. Plus most of their (modest, reasonable) needs won't be satisfied by using the gnu/linux software stack.
Behold the INARWEB!!! :):):)

mangar
July 17th, 2007, 05:55 PM
The INARWEB got a big-*** windows logo:
http://www.inarweb.com/

:)

Frak
July 17th, 2007, 06:00 PM
My bad
INTERWEB

mangar
July 17th, 2007, 06:04 PM
The interweb is developed using frontpage *shudder*
http://www.interweb-tech.com/portfolio.asp
or two fat men
http://www.interwebdesigns.com/

Frak
July 17th, 2007, 06:09 PM
I meants this InterWeb, not 2 and a half fat men and a crappy page.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interweb

motin
July 18th, 2007, 12:56 AM
If being "ready for the desktop" should mean that what a windows user is used to, and should rely on their new Linux OS to encompass each working facet of their former OS, then I'm going to say it's NOT ready.

I've been using Ubuntu for a year now. I do love it. I Installed Feisty a couple days ago, and have totally ditched my Windows partition...great.

However, in trying to find a NATIVE Linux/Ubuntu/Gnome app which can produce a burnable DVD ISO, I've gotten NOWHERE yet ! In my Dapper install, I was using WINE, and it was just fine. On the other hand, I had way too much crap installed at that time, and now I'm striving to keep this install really lite, and clean. I don't want to rely on WINE, and don't even want to think of it in terms of being anything BUT a win program emulator. Yeah, the WINE devs can bitch all they want about it being called an emulator, but I don't care, that's exactly what it is.

And as a Gnome user, I don't even want to install any KDE libraries. Some may call this anal, but I call it being sensible and neat. So, as said in another post of mine:

I'm calling Bravo Sierra on Ubuntu being "desktop ready" until someone proves to me that there's a NATIVE Gnome app which is capable of making a burnable DVD movie ISO.

And please don't say that this isn't an important aspect of an OS, because that would be BS. An OS is a tool which one uses to go about their daily activities on. And for years, Windows was a tool which I used to back up my DVD's, because god knows how easy it is to scratch those suckers ! I refuse to use Windows anymore, but I'm also doing my best to not have to install WINE.

Please prove me wrong.

Doug

Have you tried NERO Linux (http://www.nero.com/eng/NeroLINUX.html) ?

Frak
July 18th, 2007, 01:17 AM
Nero linux can't rip DVD ISOs

yabbadabbadont
July 18th, 2007, 01:25 AM
Nero linux can't rip DVD ISOs

Which version? The old 2.x version or the new 3.x version. The 3.x version has been written to use GTK2 and is supposed to have all the features of Nero 7 for Windows. (It looked like it did too when I was playing with the beta)

Frak
July 18th, 2007, 02:12 AM
I own it and it only rips to the Nero proprietary format.

KIAaze
July 18th, 2007, 07:38 AM
aptitude has super cow powers
No, you're wrong, aptitude has supersnake powers and is capable of eating elephants.
It's apt-get that has supercow powers. ;)

(__)
(oo)
/------\/
/ | ||
* /\---/\
~~ ~~

As long as people don't believe in supersnakes and supercows, GNU/Linux won't be ready for the desktop.
There brought it back on topic. :P

tgm4883
July 18th, 2007, 05:25 PM
No, you're wrong, aptitude has supersnake powers and is capable of eating elephants.
It's apt-get that has supercow powers. ;)

(__)
(oo)
/------\/
/ | ||
* /\---/\
~~ ~~

As long as people don't believe in supersnakes and supercows, GNU/Linux won't be ready for the desktop.
There brought it back on topic. :P


Dang it, I knew I should have checked that before I posted. On a side note, I was just checking it, and when I went into aptitude it was in chinese*. When I ctrl-c out (i dont' know chinese) my terminal was in chinese too.

*I do not know, write, read or speak chinese or any other language (ok, I can say hello, goodbye, and Where is the library in Spanish. But that doesn't really count). But the characters on my screen looked like chinese to me.

raul_
July 18th, 2007, 06:43 PM
Dang it, I knew I should have checked that before I posted. On a side note, I was just checking it, and when I went into aptitude it was in chinese*. When I ctrl-c out (i dont' know chinese) my terminal was in chinese too.

*I do not know, write, read or speak chinese or any other language (ok, I can say hello, goodbye, and Where is the library in Spanish. But that doesn't really count). But the characters on my screen looked like chinese to me.

You screwed up and somehow accessed memory that's not yours :) happened to me a few times when programming

m.musashi
July 19th, 2007, 12:41 AM
Yeah, people are now telling me to try it (again). I say again because as I explained in another thread, I tried it back when I first installed Ubuntu, but it didn't really work. I mean, if it did, I wouldn't be having this discussion w/you now :)

So I'm trying to figure out if I should just do dvd shrink or try K9 again. If I install K9 through apt get, or through synaptic and it doesn't work, will uninstalling it through either of those ways totally purge all of the KDE libraries from my system ? I do know about "sudo apt-get remove --purge" but still wonder if it will get rid of EVERY trace.

doug

Kind of late so maybe this has been resolved (didn't want to read several pages - too lazy). Anyway, k9copy installs via the super easy add/remove tool and will rip to .iso and shrink if you need it to. I think you have to use k3b or another app to burn the .iso. I only tried this with one DVD so far but worked just fine.

Old Jimma
July 21st, 2007, 01:00 AM
Hi Guys:

In survey research, if you want people to choose the response among many options, they way you get this done is to put your response at or toward the top. Response options toward the bottom are rarely chosen. Why are the later options rarely chosen?? Because nobody reads that far down a long list!!

This vote is a case in point. Have a look at the ordering options and then the prevalence of the votes cast for each option!

So, may I suggest that in the future when you want to have folks do a vote, RANDOMIZE the order of the options. You'll have meaningful outcome of the vote next time.

Best regards and many thanks to my Ubuntu Community.

Phil Smith
Duluth, GA

aysiu
July 21st, 2007, 06:03 AM
In survey research, if you want people to choose the response among many options, they way you get this done is to put your response at or toward the top. Response options toward the bottom are rarely chosen. Why are the later options rarely chosen?? Because nobody reads that far down a long list!!

This vote is a case in point. Have a look at the ordering options and then the prevalence of the votes cast for each option!

So, may I suggest that in the future when you want to have folks do a vote, RANDOMIZE the order of the options. You'll have meaningful outcome of the vote next time. Your assessment is wrong. The results are random, as were the options.

Take a look: 3, 1, 8, 6, 2, 5, 7, 10, 4, 9

Can you get more random than that? The top-voted item is the second in the list. The second most popular item is position 5. The third most popular item is the first one listed. And the fourth most popular option is the second to last.

By the way, the option I voted for was in the sixth position and was only the fifth most popular option. I did not put my favored option at the top of the list, and I don't know how you got that impression.

immortel
July 21st, 2007, 12:22 PM
Hi,
We gave my girlfriend's computer to my mother-in-law (let's call her Kelly). It had Windows on it but we did not finish to transfer everything we wanted to keep, I put another hard drive and decided that it would be a good test for Ubuntu. So to give a background of Kelly, she doesn't know much about computer. She uses it for few things and want it to work. Another challenge, she is french and does not understand english (except for yes, no and toaster :) ).
One more thing, she lives with her sister that has a Windows. So everything that her sister does, she should be able to do it with Ubuntu with a basic installation (that's what I thought).
She is the perfect user for this test. So I gave her Ubuntu, I showed her the add and remove software and she is good to go... Few weeks later, after many requests from her, I decided that it was a good time to spend an evening with her to check things for her. It was basic stuff that should work on Day 1. Here is a resume of it:

1- MP3. She cannot listen them. When she double-click on it, it tells her that there is no codec and if she wants to install them. Click on install, a big warning window appears about restricted codecs; she panics and cancels it every time (doesn't want to break the system). COME ON... We are in 2007, mp3 codecs are basic. It should be installed by default.

2- She wants to hear a Internet Radio Station on live365. This one took me sometime. I found quickly about streamtuner. Great but click on it and a window appears about what to do with a .pls file. Default application = rythmbox. Sorry folks, it does not work. After researching, I finally found out that it works fine with XMMS. I don't know if there is a better solution, a plugin that would embed the player in Firefox but it is working. Once again, this should be installed by default, no?

3- Burning cdrom. She wants to make mp3 cd. No problem, I will install her k3b. After the installation, starts the application and it complains about a missing mp3 codecs. Another codecs... pfffff... How do you expect her to go in Synaptics and install the libk3b... library? I had to do research on google to find the right name. Is it so difficult to add a dependency on the package to have it working fine the first time?

4- Burning cdrom (Part 2), after installing the codec, she told me that the software is in English. K3b is part of KDE. Can we manage the language in Ubuntu for that? If I choose to install Ubuntu in French, may be I would like to have everything possible in French (some frustration here). I did not do any research on this yet; it was late and I was tired. This will have to wait a bit.

5- Her sister browses some site and can hear music on them (do you see a pattern with music? :) ) So, I look at it and found the tag BGSOUND (or something like that). Firefox does not support but I found an extension called Stop Autoplay that can transform BGSOUND tag in a EMBED tag. So I installed the plugin, configure it and went back to the site. Now it asked for a plugin, click on it and got nothing for a plugin text html. I did some research but did not find anyting about this. Ok this one was though so I will pass.

In conclusion, Ubuntu is not that simple. For people that just want things working, Ubuntu is not there yet. Another distribution? May be, if you have any suggestion. If we want to be able to offer a good alternative to Windows one day, it needs to be BETTER than Windows. We are just not there... YET.

Koybe
July 21st, 2007, 12:36 PM
You should use gnome Baker as a cd burner as it is a Gnome application it will be more "integrated".

Anyway what you pointed is right, and it's not always that simple to get everything working. Now, could you place 1 guy/girl who has never touch a computer in front of one. Give him/her, one Windows and one Ubuntu. And check which one is more difficult.

I don't think it's so hard, the fact is that everybody has already played with Windows a bit, at school, at work, with a friend or what else... But not many people have started with a Linux distribution.

I have many times friends asking for help... they are using Windows.

tehkain
July 21st, 2007, 12:39 PM
My grandparents and parents have been using ubuntu since 6.10, they are no rocket scientist but some simple reading and quick research can get you far.

1:
The MP3 codec is patented so sadly this is not possible, microsoft is still having legal issues over this(multiple owners of identical patents), not to mention they have paid billions to be able to use/distribute the codec in the US.

2:
Vlc solves your next issue, also just because the default for a file may not work that does not mean it is ubuntus fault. The PLS format is being used in many different ways. PLS in rythmboxes case are playlist ofr local files, but the way you were using them was for playing a stream. You can always changed defaults.

3:
First why k3b? There are many Gnome based programs that are far easier that will work with Ubuntu's(get kubuntu if you want kde apps with lang packs) language options. Refer back to number 1 for the mp3 issue.

5: I have no idea what that is about, totem, mplayer, and xine mozilla plugins work great for all my web sounds.


So it is really not an issue with ubuntu at all. The first issue is part of ubuntu being free, get Linspire Desktop with restricted media types(ughz) if you want codecs by default. Your second issue is about knowing what file formats are used by what apps. If you had mplayer it would play right in your browser(or use vlc or alot of other apps).

The third issue is a mix of the 'free' issue and installing select KDE components on gnome based distro, if you want kde to work 100% get kubuntu-desktop.

Spike-X
July 21st, 2007, 12:41 PM
1- MP3. She cannot listen them. When she double-click on it, it tells her that there is no codec and if she wants to install them. Click on install, a big warning window appears about restricted codecs; she panics and cancels it every time (doesn't want to break the system). COME ON... We are in 2007, mp3 codecs are basic. It should be installed by default.

MP3 codecs are proprietary, licensed software. The license costs money, which is why the codecs can't be included by default in free software (the cost of the license is included in the money you pay for Windows).

Tell your sister to just install the codecs. Nothing will break.

DoctorMO
July 21st, 2007, 12:52 PM
MP3 codecs are proprietary, licensed software. The license costs money, which is why the codecs can't be included by default in free software (the cost of the license is included in the money you pay for Windows).

WRONG! Oh so wrong, the mp3 libs are open source (GPL) and play through liblame and libmad depending; not only are all these libs open source but it's debatable weather we should give a crap about the patents anyway since they're so generic it#d be nice to get them invalidated; or we can wait until 2012 when they run out.

Spike-X
July 21st, 2007, 01:05 PM
From https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RestrictedFormats :

"Ubuntu can play the most popular non-free media formats, including DVD, MP3, Quicktime, Windows Media, and more by following the instructions below. If this seems like unnecessary work, remember that Ubuntu is a distribution of free software and these packages are (at least arguably) affected by patents and license restrictions in some countries."

Spike-X
July 21st, 2007, 01:07 PM
However, from Wikipedia:

"Additionally, patent holders declined to enforce license fees on free and open source decoders, allowing many free MP3 decoders to develop. [4] Furthermore, while attempts have been made to discourage distribution of encoder binaries, Thomson has stated that individuals using free MP3 encoders are not required to pay fees. Thus while patent fees have been an issue for companies attempting to use MP3, they have not meaningfully impacted users, allowing the format to grow in popularity."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MP3#Licensing_and_patent_issues



I stand corrected.

DoctorMO
July 21st, 2007, 01:29 PM
Ubuntu can play the most popular non-free media formats, including DVD, MP3, Quicktime, Windows Media, and more by following the instructions below. If this seems like unnecessary work, remember that Ubuntu is a distribution of free software and these packages are (at least arguably) affected by patents and license restrictions in some countries.

I kinda wish someone would write this down somewhere:

mpeg (ffmpeg) - No restrictions, should be included by default
mp3 (liblame) - Patents, split in two companies from the old Alcatel-Lucent (based in europe).
quicktime (quicktime4linux) - No known restrictions, most people use the windows libs for some reason which is copyright infringement.
realmedia (complicated) - No known restrictions, most people use the windows libs for some reason which is copyright infringement (again)
windows media (none) - there are no native wmv or wma libs, use of the windows dlls is copyright infringement in ANY country unless your using a paid version of SuSE or Linspire (both have licenses).
dvds (ffmpeg) - Plays out of the box
dvds with css encryption (libdvdcss) - Forced decryption breaks the DMCA and doesn't have certified keys unknown legal status.

loudmouthman
July 21st, 2007, 01:30 PM
In response, the Ubuntu desktop is clearly not ready for your experiences but for my clients and my associates it has proven more than sufficient for their requirements.

lets have a look:

http://ustream.tv/Loudmouthman/videos/imymv5Xmu,UdSBtoXNQKQq8pa3k2rY3j
http://ustream.tv/Loudmouthman/videos/1Y1l5vyK7ITEqXBdwK5C9w
http://ustream.tv/Loudmouthman/videos/DJQABw2ZkMLJOcvMpVYQdw

http://paulshepard.wordpress.com/2007/06/27/ubuntu-it-cant-hurt/


For every poor experience I am seeing a trend for many more positive experiences

I believe the desktop is ready, but the users are not .

tomcheng76
July 21st, 2007, 01:30 PM
http://ubuntuguide.org/wiki/Ubuntu:Feisty
i think this website can help you to solve lot of problems
can you find a website for windows like that ?
I think it is not fair to compare ubuntu with windows, their system is totally different
also, dont forget you dont have to pay for all of this
moreover, the community have already tried their best to support Ubuntu
this is what i can think off
sorry for my poor english

NIT006.5
July 21st, 2007, 01:39 PM
Admittedly, it can be frustrating for new users. However, since I believe that Ubuntu is THE future, I just take a little extra time to set it up for all my users, to make sure that they don't have to deal with any of these problems. At the end of the day, ALL of us here know that Linux is a better system (understatement of the century!) otherwise we wouldn't be here. Although Ubuntu might not quite be "there" YET, compared to every other Linux distro I've tested, it is most certainly the closest by far! So the choice is to use a safer, much more secure, well supported, open source, free OS (with a little extra tinkering) OR to use an expensive OS that is a piece of @#$t (at my politest) and is open to risk in every second line of it's code. To my way of thinking, there isn't really much choice there. I'll go with a little extra tinkering every time.

However, I do know from personal experience that trying to make this case to the "average" user is very difficult, when they just want things to "work". So I don't bother. That's why I would rather set it up FOR them, with all the necessary extras, right from the word go. Yes, it's a little extra work BUT since I'm getting a FANTASTIC and superior operating system for free, um.... I don't feel that I have any right to complain.

My personal choice (which I think is the easiest) is to install automix which then allows me to install all the codecs my users need in one shot. In the last month I've migrated ten users to Ubuntu (including top management power users), and I haven't had a single complaint yet, because I spend an extra bit of time setting it up for them. If anything, they are HUGELY impressed by the security advantages offered on Linux as compared to Win-doze (although that's just because security has become a prime concern for us recently).

When I first started testing Ubuntu, this document helped me a lot (I think it's on these forums somewhere as well, but this is the link I have):

http://www.howtoforge.com/the_perfect_desktop_ubuntu7.04

aysiu
July 21st, 2007, 01:41 PM
Nothing you're saying hasn't been said before hundreds of times (hence the merger with the megathread).

And it's still a false comparison.

It'd be like giving a fresh installation of Windows (uh, uh... no driver CDs!) to Kelly. Good luck. Don't you think she'd be freaked out even by the prompt to install Flash the first time she visits a website that requires it? Don't you think she'd be upset that sound isn't working or that the internet connection isn't working?

"Human beings" as you define them (those who do not know much about computers) do not install or configure operating systems. The or configure part is important here. If you install Ubuntu for someone who freaks out about warnings and who needs MP3 playback, install the g-d MP3 playback for her. Geez... Just as you would probably install drivers, anti-virus, etc. for her in Windows.

aysiu
July 21st, 2007, 01:43 PM
My personal choice (which I think is the easiest) is to install automix which then allows me to install all the codecs my users need in one shot. Actually, you can make your life even easier by just using Linux Mint instead of vanilla Ubuntu. Saves you the bother of installing Automatix and then installing all the codecs afterwards. Mint comes with all the codecs installed and is basically Ubuntu with different artwork and different default packages.

lancest
July 21st, 2007, 02:17 PM
Since want my users to develop something like a brand recognition from a well supported distribution- Mint would not do for that. Though I like Mint very much, Ubuntu is taking Linux into the future and that's what users should be aware of. Codec installation will improve and I'd rather just use Automatix for now.

aysiu
July 21st, 2007, 02:23 PM
Since want my users to develop something like a brand recognition from a well supported distribution- Mint would not do for that. Though I like Mint very much, Ubuntu is taking Linux into the future and that's what users should be aware of. Codec installation will improve and I'd rather just use Automatix for now.
Ah. Thanks for the clarification.

tehkain
July 22nd, 2007, 12:54 PM
Rather then using mint - I sit down right after the new release and throw together a custom install CD that already includes restricted formats and a few essential apps. You really are just an apt-get/source edit away from having everything automatix and mint provide.

stalker145
July 22nd, 2007, 01:35 PM
Rather then using mint - I sit down right after the new release and throw together a custom install CD that already includes restricted formats and a few essential apps. You really are just an apt-get/source edit away from having everything automatix and mint provide.

Would you happen to be able to point me at a HowTo for that? I'd love to be able to have a personalized install of my favorite Ubuntu :)

raja
July 22nd, 2007, 02:19 PM
Would you happen to be able to point me at a HowTo for that? I'd love to be able to have a personalized install of my favorite Ubuntu :)

http://reconstructor.aperantis.com/

cavedog
July 23rd, 2007, 03:14 PM
After three months of banging my head trying to get Ubuntu to print to either of my two printers, I have to say that this is one of the reasons why is isn't ready.

It doesn't work out of the box, and the demands on the new user are still too great for this thing to get off the ground. In windows, I can find a driver for just about anything. In Ubuntu, the requirements for me compile and configure are just too much.

People are not going to buy new hardware (printers) because they get a open source operating system. It is silly to even put the concept forth.

Best of luck getting the bugs out of this. It's a noble effort.

Nekiruhs
July 23rd, 2007, 03:15 PM
Have you even tried to post here? Try making a thread and taking affirmative action instead of complaining.We can probably help you.

LaRoza
July 23rd, 2007, 03:18 PM
After three months of banging my head trying to get Ubuntu to print to either of my two printers, I have to say that this is one of the reasons why is isn't ready.

It doesn't work out of the box, and the demands on the new user are still too great for this thing to get off the ground. In windows, I can find a driver for just about anything. In Ubuntu, the requirements for me compile and configure are just too much.

Best of luck getting the bugs out of this. It's a noble effort.

Most Operating Systems don't work out of the box, actually none of them do. (Windows is even harder to install).

For printers, HP is usually the best option, not because of Linux, but because of the hardware company. A printer was the reason Stallman does what he does.


People are not going to buy new hardware (printers) because they get a open source operating system. It is silly to even put the concept forth.

For Vista, you will probably need to buy new RAM, a new Video card (with hard to get drivers), and a new CPU just to get it working fine. Whereas Ubuntu would work fine.

-EDIT I just noticed this is your first post, why didn't you ask about the printer on the forum? We can help, the wall can't.

Seisen
July 23rd, 2007, 03:27 PM
What kind of printer is it anyway?

aysiu
July 23rd, 2007, 03:43 PM
Please read the thread I just merged yours with.

If you want help, post a new thread in the support area kindly asking for it.

Otherwise, this is the place to talk about Ubuntu not being "ready."

tgm4883
July 23rd, 2007, 04:01 PM
After three months of banging my head trying to get Ubuntu to print to either of my two printers, I have to say that this is one of the reasons why is isn't ready.

It doesn't work out of the box, and the demands on the new user are still too great for this thing to get off the ground. In windows, I can find a driver for just about anything. In Ubuntu, the requirements for me compile and configure are just too much.

People are not going to buy new hardware (printers) because they get a open source operating system. It is silly to even put the concept forth.

Best of luck getting the bugs out of this. It's a noble effort.

Thats funny because that is the exact concept that Windows Vista put forth to me. Apparently my HP scanner is too old and there will be no support for it in Vista ever.

cobrn1
July 23rd, 2007, 04:53 PM
Thats funny because that is the exact concept that Windows Vista put forth to me. Apparently my HP scanner is too old and there will be no support for it in Vista ever.

If you just want to test linux out then no, buying new hardware doesn't sound appealing. However, if your pc is dying, and you need to replace it then you would consider linux, and linux compatible hardware. As above pointed out, vista insists that you upgrade hardware...

cavedog
July 23rd, 2007, 05:03 PM
I didn't ask for help because the questions were already asked by others. I searched and read the posts of those who went before me in this area. I'm not one to simply start yelling because I can't figure out where my home folder is. I simply believed that I could not be the first to have this problem.

I'm frustrated beyond belief.

I am not upgrading to Vista. I'm trying to line up another operating system now, so when XP is no longer supported, I have a viable option. So far, Ubuntu is not ready, in my opinion.

The printers are an HP 1000 LaserJet and a Canon PIXMA ip1500. The HP is considered a paperweight, and the Canon is supposed to print, but doesn't.

Both worked out of the box in XP. My twelve year old daughter installed the HP in Windows.

I have been working on computers since 286's were hot stuff. I don't claim to be an expert, but I do know a little.

There is much I like about Ubuntu. But the printing is a major problem. Unless I can print my documents, I might as well use a typewriter.

aysiu
July 23rd, 2007, 05:12 PM
I didn't ask for help because the questions were already asked by others. I searched and read the posts of those who went before me in this area. I'm not one to simply start yelling because I can't figure out where my home folder is. I simply believed that I could not be the first to have this problem.

I'm frustrated beyond belief.

I am not upgrading to Vista. I'm trying to line up another operating system now, so when XP is no longer supported, I have a viable option. So far, Ubuntu is not ready, in my opinion.

The printers are an HP 1000 LaserJet and a Canon PIXMA ip1500. The HP is considered a paperweight, and the Canon is supposed to print, but doesn't.

Both worked out of the box in XP. My twelve year old daughter installed the HP in Windows.

I have been working on computers since 286's were hot stuff. I don't claim to be an expert, but I do know a little.

There is much I like about Ubuntu. But the printing is a major problem. Unless I can print my documents, I might as well use a typewriter.
Then keep using XP until you consider both printers paperweights. Once you are in the position to buy a new printer, make sure it's Ubuntu-compatible. Switch over at that time.

smoker
July 23rd, 2007, 05:15 PM
cavedog, try these two links for your printers:

http://foo2zjs.rkkda.com/
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CanonPixmaIP1500

best of luck

tgm4883
July 23rd, 2007, 05:20 PM
If you just want to test linux out then no, buying new hardware doesn't sound appealing. However, if your pc is dying, and you need to replace it then you would consider linux, and linux compatible hardware. As above pointed out, vista insists that you upgrade hardware...

What if I was just testing Vista? (Which I was, I had no intention of keeping it on there unless it was just freaking unbelievable)

If your just going to test linux, then you probably don't need printer support. If you end up liking linux, then you can get another printer. If my pc is not dying (brand new), and I want to use an old scanner I don't see why they should stop me from doing so. Guess that's one of the benefits of using Linux.

aysiu
July 23rd, 2007, 05:20 PM
cavedog, try these two links for your printers:

http://foo2zjs.rkkda.com/
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CanonPixmaIP1500

best of luck
P.S. To make your life a little easier on that second link, copy and paste into the terminal... don't retype.

BirdZerk
July 23rd, 2007, 09:26 PM
It still amazes me how people slam something that know very little about and have asked very few questions about (28). When I first started playing with Linux and I mean play, because there was know way I knew enough to switch cold turkey, I must have reinstalled different Linux OS's a hundred times. There is no way a person could successfully switch from Windows to Linux over night, it takes time to understand the way things are done in Linux and to find replacement software. Or I could be looking at this all wrong and the people who post a thread like this one are trying to balance the threads that slam Windows.

aysiu
July 23rd, 2007, 11:00 PM
I've moved the "Linux isn't as stable as Windows" posts to the Is Linux really more stable than Windows XP? thread (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=3068427#post3068427).

MCSE_Crossover
July 24th, 2007, 03:47 PM
Ok. I keep complaining and asking the questions in other posts, so I am going to try to consolidate all my complaints and whines in this post. These are primarily the complaints that my wife has with the system, which is why it is necessary to find solutions. I like Linux, but for those married and those that are woman, if the wife ain't happy...no one happy. Really though, I don't think I am seeking too much with Linux, but it is the basic things that just don't seem to get straightened out. My wife is the one that really has the biggest problem because as she says "it just isn't as easy as Windows." I think she is right. And again, it is stuff that should be SIMPLE that is such a pain. I can make Linux work. I worked as an Enterprise admin on the Windows side for a living and dabble with Linux in my free time. I'm not computer stupid the least bit. But, let's get one thing on the table first. I'm not a programmer, I don't want to write programs, and I don't want to "do something about it." I just want it to work - like it should. To me, it all boils down to time vs. money. What do I want to do? Do I want to spend hours getting some video drivers working or do I load it on a (closed source) OS that will just WORK? It is the timeless question that has always held Linux back.

Now for where my complaints start. These are the simple things that just "work" in Windows and Mac and what really annoy my wife (and myself).

1. Firefox and Thunderbird don't have a image preview feature when browsing.

I have been arguing this point for awhile in these forums. This is totally unacceptable as far as i'm concerned. Now, I know this isn't necessarily a Linux issue, but more a Mozilla. They use strictly GTK-based file picker and it doesn't have the necessary features to make it full functional.

Here is a link to the whole conversation: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=483898&highlight=major+show+stopper

there is a solution there that I haven't tried yet, but still..here is an example of all these stupid work arounds you have to do just to make something simple "work"

In Windows, you can display images EVERYWHERE. You have default views, such as "list, details, thumbnails, etc" Why is this so hard?

Opera also doesn't have an image preview feature. So this is out. Konqueror DOES have an image preview feature, but for some reason there seems to be a lot of pages that Konqueror doesn't display correctly.

One example of this is MySpace. I dont know if it is a problem with Java or Flash or both. But, the image upload option on this EXTREMELY POPULAR page doesn't work correctly in Konqueror or Firefox.

The other thing is, Firefox is a better browser. It is more popular and more widely accepted as a standard. So why when using Linux do I have to pick what features I want to use? I gain one feature using an application, but lose another. Both of which I feel are critical features that should be DEFAULT in a browser...complete functionality. Asking too much? I don't think so.

2. Photo management applications (and their compatibility) suck.

Ok, so we have the three...F-Spot, Digikam, and Picasa. Really, there isn't other COMPLETE management applications that even come close to the fucntionality of those three. But again, when analyzing these three, you are losing and gaining key features when you decide which one to use.

We (my wife and I) use Thunderbird for our email. We use it because it is just a simple application and it has a KEY feature...profile manager. That allows us to not have to set up multiple user accounts on the computer, but we can still keep our email seperate. You click on the Thunderbird icon, it opens up a window asking you to select your name, and then enters you into the application. This realy is necessary so we can share the photo database. If I take pictures and download them onto the computer, when she sits down to send an email to her friends, she needs to have access to the same photos and edits that I added. Also, I don't want to have to set up and configure a whole new desktop environment just for her to manage photos, browse the web, and send emails. Profile manager is an AWESOME feature of Thunderbird - similar to a feature of Microsoft Outlook where you can set up seperate mail profiles. Evolution doesn't have this feature...which is ironic since it touts itself as being a replacement for Outlook, except it doens't have this feature that Outlook does. Kmail doesn't have this feature. Total bummer. A far as i'm concerned, this should be a standard in all email apps.

So why does this matter? Well, I have found (and my wife wants) Picasa to be the default photo manager. I agree, it is the most polished and functional of the photo applications that offers the BASIC and NECESSARY features for the average user. It takes FULL advantage of the KISS methodology, unlike the others which I think are overly complex, rely too much on keyboard shortcuts and have too many stupid windows that open everytime you click on something. But here is the catch...When you are using Picasa and try to use the "email pictures" option...Picasa only supports sending email through the defeault Linux client emails...which are Kmail for KDE and Evolution for Gnome. The other catch...in order for Picasa to use them correctly, they have to be OPEN when you try to send emails. How stupid! In Windows, you click email, you select Thunderbird, it OPENS the program for you, attaches the pictures, and your good to go.

And no, I don't use Google Hello and I don't want to use the gmail feature. For my wife, she wants to be able to just click-click-click to add her contacts. She doesn't want to have to remember them all or even part of them like is requied to add your contacts going that route.

And another Picasa flub...no export to Picasa web albums - although this is slotted to be available soon.

So what are the options? Well, we gave Digikam a whirl. Does it send emails correctly thorugh Thunderbird? Check! Is it super easy to modify/edit pictures like Picasa? I would say maybe half as easy, but not as simplistic as Picasa. Although the kipiplugs and the digiplugs are very nice and fairly powerful, the layout of the application is still kind of garbled. And what is annoying is when you try to select what pictures you want to send. If you select to email pictures, it comes up with a dialog asking you what to select. Well, what is stuid is that you can select multiple pictures by holding control, but what about multiple albums? First off, it doesn't display the albums in a nested view. It displays them linear by either numerical or alphabetical format. That totally negates the whole point of having seperate albums. I think you should be able to double click a picture and it adds it to the list you wish to send.

A bonus, you can export to Flickr and Gallery...but no Google web albums and not nearly as many other options for export as F-Spot has.

So F-Spot. So-so app with so-so features. I personally don't like how this imports all your pictures into these crazy folders...I like my folders arranged how I want them arranged. I don't want them by year/month/day. That makes it too hard to find and i'm not a tagging crazy person. But, F-Spot does export to many different web sites and it does export to Thunderbird, but I Think the program overall is just lacking in fucntionality and is not worthy of being a total competitor yet to Digikam or even close to Picasa.

So what is it? Six of one...half dozen of another...no matter which way you flip a coin at it, these are SUPER simple features that is made to be overly complex under Linux. You take some features with one program and lost other critical ones in another.

So are these asking too much? I mean, in a nutshell, what am I really asking for? Perfect (or near) functionality of what features?

1. Email
2. Web Browsing
3. Digital Photo Management / Editing

Three things that the AVERAGE computer user is going to want to do. And it is too much of a pain for my wife to do and I agree. Why is that? Am I wrong in my logic? I think my points are valid. After all, if Linux is to become mainstream, these are the first three things that will be used, tested, and analyzed by the average computer user. And they DON'T WORK LIKE THEY DO IN WINDOWS.

So, how does it go in Windows? We talk about costs...so i'm average Joe user. I go to Dell and research computers. I buy a computer with Windows XP or Vista for slightly more money then one loaded with Ubuntu.

I set it up, I download and install Thunderbird FOR FREE. I download and install Firefox FOR FREE. I download and install Picasa FOR FREE. Three FREE programs that do everything your BASIC user will do and they all work SEAMLESSLY together.

I have a hard time with the justification here...ya know? I open this to arguments, opinions, agreements, or whatever. I will respond as best as I can. I look forward to what people have to say. I have many more complaints about things that extend a little higher then the average user level, and if they arise within continued conversation, I will voice them and discuss them as openly as I can.

I look forward to hearing what you all have to say.

aysiu
July 24th, 2007, 04:15 PM
I've put your rant in a more appropriate place. Since you don't want to do anything about it, and people seem to be trying to help you in that other thread, I guess you were just trying to blow off some steam.

I've also written about (among other things) the Firefox image preview problem and linked to the bug report:
http://ubuntucat.wordpress.com/2007/07/12/the-top-5-gnomeubuntu-usability-bugs-id-love-to-see-fixed/

It is annoying, but what can you do? Seriously. You file a bug report. You wait. Or you use something else.

MCSE_Crossover
July 24th, 2007, 04:26 PM
Yes, that is exactly what I was doing...blowing off steam. I was hoping to get some additional conversation out of it, but I suppose I won't now since it is buried within 83 pages of this post. No biggy though...at least I feel better. And it's not that I don't want to do anything about it. I've kept up and file bug reports (or added to them) through launchpad and whatever other resources. This is a community though and I was seeking understanding and advice.

It is annoying. And truly there is nothing you can do except sit back and wait. But people rant all the time about this and that.

So what is your recommendation? Load Windows? Tell her to deal with it? LoL...sometimes I laugh at how nerdy my messages are in this forum...like it is the end of the world or something. I guess hobbies sometimes come off as being really important when they really aren't. Appease the wife is probably the best option...and then buy a Mac? :)

airtonix
July 24th, 2007, 04:29 PM
MSCE_Crossover:


The other thing is, Firefox is a better browser. It is more popular and more widely accepted as a standard. So why when using Linux do I have to pick what features I want to use? I gain one feature using an application, but lose another. Both of which I feel are critical features that should be DEFAULT in a browser...complete functionality. Asking too much? I don't think so.

This sentence doesnt make sense?
Are your saying that firefox shouyld be the OS?
Im confused.

airtonix
July 24th, 2007, 04:34 PM
consider :

if you dont want to do it yourself you have to pay someone else to do it for you.

Ergo... your wife feels she does need to become adept at using computers...

I see this as the same argument as :

I dont need to worry about sexually transmitted diseases.

then people cry when they get AIDS. claiming that the governement should make some law.


My Point:

make HER buy the mac mini

aysiu
July 24th, 2007, 04:38 PM
Yes, that is exactly what I was doing...blowing off steam. I was hoping to get some additional conversation out of it, but I suppose I won't now since it is buried within 83 pages of this post. No biggy though...at least I feel better. You'd be surprised, actually. Despite (or because of?) how long this thread is, it still gets plenty of conversation.
And it's not that I don't want to do anything about it. I've kept up and file bug reports (or added to them) through launchpad and whatever other resources. This is a community though and I was seeking understanding and advice. Well, you have my understanding definitely. For anyone with a Flickr account or a blog, that image upload bug is annoying. I can't say I share your assessment of the image management apps, though. I happen to like F-Spot a lot. I don't have any major problems with it.


So what is your recommendation? Load Windows? Tell her to deal with it? LoL...sometimes I laugh at how nerdy my messages are in this forum...like it is the end of the world or something. I guess hobbies sometimes come off as being really important when they really aren't. Appease the wife is probably the best option...and then buy a Mac? :) I don't know, honestly. First of all, Konqueror has always worked for me for image previews for uploads. You say it doesn't work for MySpace, though? I don't have a MySpace page, so maybe that is the case. Have you tried Galeon? It lets you preview only one image at a time, but at least it has an image upload preview.

If Galeon and Konqueror don't work out, though, then, yes... going back to Windows may be the only solution for now.

MCSE_Crossover
July 24th, 2007, 04:42 PM
MSCE_Crossover:



This sentence doesnt make sense?
Are your saying that firefox shouyld be the OS?
Im confused.

No, it makes more sense if you read the above sentences as well. I was complaining more about the differences between Konq. and Firefox - where Konq has an image preview feature when browsing, but lacks some overall compatibility with a lot of webpages. Firefox is superior in this aspect because it has a broader range of support and compatibility with sites across the internet but lacks the image preview feature when browsing.

Add a feature here, lose a feature there. Add a feature there, lose a feature here. Understand?

aysiu
July 24th, 2007, 04:43 PM
No, it makes more sense if you read the above sentences as well. I was complaining more about the differences between Konq. and Firefox - where Konq has an image preview feature when browsing, but lacks some overall compatibility with a lot of webpages. Firefox is superior in this aspect because it has a broader range of support and compatibility with sites across the internet but lacks the image preview feature when browsing.

Add a feature here, lose a feature there. Add a feature there, lose a feature here. Understand?
Konqueror has user agent switcher capability. Might that help with some of the compatibility issues?

MCSE_Crossover
July 24th, 2007, 04:52 PM
You'd be surprised, actually. Despite (or because of?) how long this thread is, it still gets plenty of conversation. Well, you have my understanding definitely. For anyone with a Flickr account or a blog, that image upload bug is annoying. I can't say I share your assessment of the image management apps, though. I happen to like F-Spot a lot. I don't have any major problems with it.

I didn't say that there were problems with F-Spot. My main thing was how it oraganized the folder structure. I wasn't too hot on the whole year/month/day structure since we're not huge into tagging. Again though, this is more of a personal preference then a program function. And overall, I don't think the overall editing of photos is as near simplistic as Picasa...or functional for that matter. Could be just what i'm used to though.


I don't know, honestly. First of all, Konqueror has always worked for me for image previews for uploads. You say it doesn't work for MySpace, though? I don't have a MySpace page, so maybe that is the case. Have you tried Galeon? It lets you preview only one image at a time, but at least it has an image upload preview.

The image preview in Konq worked fine. It was the actual upload dialog box within myspace that seemed to be quirky...something with Java or Flash...not sure which. There was a work around for this...but again, it was a work around...there just seems to be too many of those.

And overall, I just think Firefox is a superior browser to Konqueror. What do you think? Perhaps I didn't test it out long enough.


If Galeon and Konqueror don't work out, though, then, yes... going back to Windows may be the only solution for now.

Thats a bummer because I think Linux (and KDE) are very nice and much smoother than Windows. To reiterate the point, my heart has been won. I think it is a strong competitor and a stable platform to work on. But is everyone happy? If there were things that I could work out, that would be great!

So here is something I am slightly unclear on. how does one configure multiple user accounts on the machine. And I don't mean how to I set up seperate accounts...I understand that.

But, my wife and I share the same pictures. If I snap 20 pictures of the kids, download them onto the computer and add them into whatever photo application, and make edits, how do other people set it up so that when she logs into her username, she has access to all the same pictures with all the same photo edits and database? You know what I mean?

I have never taken advantage of having multiple user names on the machien because there was never a need to do it with just my wife and I and our kids our too young for them to have their own. I never really understood the point. Especially since the only thing my wife uses the computer for is dabbling on the internet, sending out some emails, and goofing around with pictures.

Perhaps others can shed some light on how they have their multi-user environment set up in regards to this type of thing...

salsafyren
July 24th, 2007, 05:02 PM
Hello MCSE_Crossover,

I can almost feel your frustration!

Let me try to answer your complaints:





1. Firefox and Thunderbird don't have a image preview feature when browsing.

I have been arguing this point for awhile in these forums. This is totally unacceptable as far as i'm concerned. Now, I know this isn't necessarily a Linux issue, but more a Mozilla. They use strictly GTK-based file picker and it doesn't have the necessary features to make it full functional.



My opinion is that it is a bug in GTK and really shows that nobody at GNOME takes bugs like this seriously. When GNOME 2.8 was released, they said "We surpassed Windows, now let's aim for OSX" without even working on these BASIC features. That's what I hate about GNOME.

Someone needs to pay developers to fix these bugs, no excuses.



One example of this is MySpace. I dont know if it is a problem with Java or Flash or both. But, the image upload option on this EXTREMELY POPULAR page doesn't work correctly in Konqueror or Firefox.


Email myspace about it. That's not a Linux bug. It probably exists because of the low marketshare that Linux has.




The other thing is, Firefox is a better browser. It is more popular and more widely accepted as a standard. So why when using Linux do I have to pick what features I want to use? I gain one feature using an application, but lose another. Both of which I feel are critical features that should be DEFAULT in a browser...complete functionality. Asking too much? I don't think so.


That's the way software works.



2. Photo management applications (and their compatibility) suck.

Ok, so we have the three...F-Spot, Digikam, and Picasa. Really, there isn't other COMPLETE management applications that even come close to the fucntionality of those three. But again, when analyzing these three, you are losing and gaining key features when you decide which one to use.



I agree again. F-Spot has a lot of potential but is lacking in features. Digikam's UI is horrible. Picasa is excellent but is not designed for Linux. This means that Picasa in Windows works better than in Linux. Mail Google about it. They have the power to actually fix their bugs.





We (my wife and I) use Thunderbird for our email. We use it because it is just a simple application and it has a KEY feature...profile manager.

[snip]

A far as i'm concerned, this should be a standard in all email apps.



I think you are wrong, because it introduces a security problem and you'll have to duplicate multiple user handling everywhere. A profile manager is not a good idea, IMHO.




And another Picasa flub...no export to Picasa web albums - although this is slotted to be available soon.


If you install the Windows version of Picasa, export to web albums works. However, other features don't work. Again, email Google.



So are these asking too much? I mean, in a nutshell, what am I really asking for? Perfect (or near) functionality of what features?

1. Email
2. Web Browsing
3. Digital Photo Management / Editing



I agree that photo management sucks and that thumbnails should be shown in the file selector. However, since I use Gmail, emailing is working fine for me.

I think the REAL problem is that nobody is willing to pay to develop these desktop apps. They cost a lot of money and you gain almost nothing. How does developing Picasa gain Google money?

You have to analyze the economics to understand why linux desktop software is in such a poor state.

Like F-Spot: Novell has ONE guy developing it and contributions from a handful volunteers. That is not serious. They should have at least two-three full time developers working on UNTIL it reaches maturity. I take a lot of photos myself and would love to have a working Picasa or just a F-Spot with FEATURES.

I think that Mark Shuttleworth should hire some developers to fix the basic software in Ubuntu instead of just synching Debian. That's what Novell and RedHat do, why can't Ubuntu?

MCSE_Crossover
July 24th, 2007, 05:22 PM
Your pretty spot on. Hopefully I can expand...





My opinion is that it is a bug in GTK and really shows that nobody at GNOME takes bugs like this seriously. When GNOME 2.8 was released, they said "We surpassed Windows, now let's aim for OSX" without even working on these BASIC features. That's what I hate about GNOME.

Is it GTK? Because if you look at GIMP, which uses the GTK file picker, it has an image preview option. I think that the companies designing the apps can write more dynamic file handler applications - but for some reason, they just don't.




Email myspace about it. That's not a Linux bug. It probably exists because of the low marketshare that Linux has.

I dont know if it is myspace. I think it is more the way that the Java applet runs in Linux. Or possibly Flash? I'm not sure. If I bypass what I believe is a Java applet and go to a straight text-based upload, it seems to work fine. So what is the problem? Is it Firefox? Is it Konqueror? Is it MySpace? Is it Java? Is it Flash? I have no idea.



I agree again. F-Spot has a lot of potential but is lacking in features. Digikam's UI is horrible. Picasa is excellent but is not designed for Linux. This means that Picasa in Windows works better than in Linux. Mail Google about it. They have the power to actually fix their bugs.

Yea, but look how much conversation has been already mayde concerning a native port of Picasa to Linux. Are they addressing it? Do they care? Who knows...I think they are addressing some of the conerns, such as "web albums" feature under Linux. But I don't think they will ever rewrite the whole program natively...which is unfortuante. It is such a great program. Too bad ACDSee doesn't have a Linux port. That program rocks, too. But hey, maybe with Dell pushing Ubuntu now something will happen! :)



I think you are wrong, because it introduces a security problem and you'll have to duplicate multiple user handling everywhere. A profile manager is not a good idea, IMHO.

Have you checked out the profile manager feature? In Ubuntu, just execute /usr/bin/mozilla-thunderbird -P

That will bring up the profile manager. There shouldn't be duplicate user handling issues. They are totally seperate from each other. Like if you browse to /home/USERNAME/.mozilla-thunderbird/profiles...this is where there would be multiple set up. It is just letting you select which one you want to go into. For a home environment, what type of security concerns does this present? Please expound on that....




If you install the Windows version of Picasa, export to web albums works. However, other features don't work. Again, email Google.

I was never able to get the Windows version to install. It would hang every time I started to search for pictures. What other features don't work?



I agree that photo management sucks and that thumbnails should be shown in the file selector. However, since I use Gmail, emailing is working fine for me.

GMAIL works fine for me as well, but my wife doesn't think she can remember all of the users to send mail to. When the dialog window pops up, you know, where you select your contacts...it is too bad that they can just list them off to the left in a window so you can just "double click" to add them or something. Maybe i'll do a mockup and send it to Google. That would make it perfect! It is good now, with how it auto-completes the name. But it isn't as easy as it could be.

stmiller
July 24th, 2007, 05:30 PM
I think that Mark Shuttleworth should hire some developers to fix the basic software in Ubuntu instead of just synching Debian. That's what Novell and RedHat do, why can't Ubuntu?

Because Ubuntu is derived from Debian unstable as the base. Stability is more important than having version X.x of a program, as you can tell by the road map for releases (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GutsyReleaseSchedule). But this model means unfortunately that bug fixes come later for many packages...

salsafyren
July 24th, 2007, 06:08 PM
Your pretty spot on. Hopefully I can expand...

Is it GTK? Because if you look at GIMP, which uses the GTK file picker, it has an image preview option. I think that the companies designing the apps can write more dynamic file handler applications - but for some reason, they just don't.


The problem with the GIMP way, is that you have to click a filename, then the preview shows. That's not ideal, because your wife probably just wants to preview ALL images and then choose one.

I think that image previews should be built in and easily enabled. How it actually works, I'm not sure.



I dont know if it is myspace. I think it is more the way that the Java applet runs in Linux. Or possibly Flash? I'm not sure. If I bypass what I believe is a Java applet and go to a straight text-based upload, it seems to work fine. So what is the problem? Is it Firefox? Is it Konqueror? Is it MySpace? Is it Java? Is it Flash? I have no idea.


If you don't have any idea, then it is difficult to fix. I would suggest mailing myspace and see what their response it.



Yea, but look how much conversation has been already mayde concerning a native port of Picasa to Linux. Are they addressing it? Do they care? Who knows...I think they are addressing some of the conerns, such as "web albums" feature under Linux. But I don't think they will ever rewrite the whole program natively...which is unfortuante. It is such a great program. Too bad ACDSee doesn't have a Linux port. That program rocks, too. But hey, maybe with Dell pushing Ubuntu now something will happen! :)


I hope that Google fixes the bugs in the Linux port of Picasa. That would help a lot.

I'm not a fan of ACDSee, but hey if they port it, I'm all for it.



Have you checked out the profile manager feature? In Ubuntu, just execute /usr/bin/mozilla-thunderbird -P

That will bring up the profile manager. There shouldn't be duplicate user handling issues. They are totally seperate from each other. Like if you browse to /home/USERNAME/.mozilla-thunderbird/profiles...this is where there would be multiple set up. It is just letting you select which one you want to go into. For a home environment, what type of security concerns does this present? Please expound on that....


Well, first of all, it is a security problem that multiple users have access to one account. Separate the accounts, that's the UNIX way.

Second, if you want profiles in every app, you need to add code for that everywhere. Can you understand now, that this way is not optimal?

I agree that for a home environment where everybody trusts each other, one user is easier, but maybe that's because the actual process of setting up the users is the problem here?

I think Ubuntu needs a shared folder where all users can put and see shared files. That would help a lot in such an environment.



I was never able to get the Windows version to install. It would hang every time I started to search for pictures. What other features don't work?


Well, I installed the newest Picasa for Windows via the newest wine (0.9.41) and importing folders recursively didn't work. That was a deal-breaker and I had to revert to the Linux version.



GMAIL works fine for me as well, but my wife doesn't think she can remember all of the users to send mail to. When the dialog window pops up, you know, where you select your contacts...it is too bad that they can just list them off to the left in a window so you can just "double click" to add them or something. Maybe i'll do a mockup and send it to Google. That would make it perfect! It is good now, with how it auto-completes the name. But it isn't as easy as it could be.

Well, using Gmail doesn't solve the problem with sending pictures via email, so maybe it is better to fix the bugs in Thunderbird?

salsafyren
July 24th, 2007, 06:11 PM
Because Ubuntu is derived from Debian unstable as the base. Stability is more important than having version X.x of a program, as you can tell by the road map for releases (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GutsyReleaseSchedule). But this model means unfortunately that bug fixes come later for many packages...

My question were more like: why does Ubuntu only package programs than actually help in the development?

F-Spot is a good example where help could be needed.

I think it is an economic issue, because Ubuntu does not earn money from F-Spot but on support contracts from companies.

salsafyren
July 24th, 2007, 06:36 PM
To understand why the Linux Desktop still has many problems, I quote Con Kolivas from this page:

http://apcmag.com/6759/interview_with_con_kolivas_part_1_computing_is_bor ing



The developers were all developing for something that wasn't the desktop. They had all been employed by big name manufacturers who couldn't care less about the desktop (and still don't) but want their last 1% on their database benchmark or throughput benchmark or whatever.


All the money is going into developing Linux for the server, not the desktop.

Yes, you have Gnome, KDE etc. but it takes more money to reach a higher level desktop.

prizrak
July 24th, 2007, 07:34 PM
To set up multiple users that share a folder you just create a folder with full permissions for each user on the system and make it the default write to folder for your application. This way all the files will be in it and all the permissions should be correct. It's not ideal and Windows's way of having a shared documents folder for all users would be better.

Flash doesn't work right in Firefox on Windows either. Your problem is not with Linux it is with the specific applications. I hate iTunes on all platforms but just because it doesn't work like Winamp doesn't mean it's a Windows problem.

handy
July 25th, 2007, 04:50 AM
I think a lot can be learned from studying the PClinuxOS Control Center, regarding this topic.

Also, the ability to install software & codecs that are illegal in the U.S. in a really simple GUI. A method simpler than having to install & use Automatix2.

KIAaze
July 25th, 2007, 05:12 AM
To set up multiple users that share a folder you just create a folder with full permissions for each user on the system and make it the default write to folder for your application. This way all the files will be in it and all the permissions should be correct. It's not ideal and Windows's way of having a shared documents folder for all users would be better.


Why is Windows's way better?
You can do exactly the same in Ubuntu and even more.

In Windows XP, unless you have XP pro, there aren't many permissions you can set. It's just share or don't share.
In Ubuntu, you have the full Unix permissions system using chown, chgrp, chmod and umask:
-user/group/other
-read/write/execute

Ok, maybe it's more "complicated" than in Windows, but at least you have more possibilities. :)

aysiu
July 25th, 2007, 05:21 AM
Also, the ability to install software & codecs that are illegal in the U.S. in a really simple GUI. A method simpler than having to install & use Automatix2. It's called Linux Mint or Mepis.

handy
July 25th, 2007, 10:10 AM
It's called Linux Mint or Mepis.

I'm very comfortable with Dapper.
Whatever I'm playing around with on the test boxes is a bit more of a lottery; I have not looked at Mint or Mepis, & now you have sparked my interest Aysiu. :)

I am getting the impression, after having a brief look PCLOS, that Linux for the desktop is just starting to come of age. I imagine that in a couple of years time we will be using some pretty polished Desktop distro's.

ukripper
July 25th, 2007, 12:20 PM
Why is Windows's way better?
You can do exactly the same in Ubuntu and even more.

In Windows XP, unless you have XP pro, there aren't many permissions you can set. It's just share or don't share.




In windows XP pro you can set full NTFS permissions and share permissions both. In domain environment NTFS permissions works really well with corresponding share permissions and are quiet comprehensive set.

prizrak
July 25th, 2007, 02:54 PM
Why is Windows's way better?
You can do exactly the same in Ubuntu and even more.

In Windows XP, unless you have XP pro, there aren't many permissions you can set. It's just share or don't share.
In Ubuntu, you have the full Unix permissions system using chown, chgrp, chmod and umask:
-user/group/other
-read/write/execute

Ok, maybe it's more "complicated" than in Windows, but at least you have more possibilities. :)

I'm talking about a home user here for one, for two in XP there is an actual "Shared Documents" folder that you can drag stuff into and it will automatically be visible to all users. It's possible to do in Ubuntu but it's not that easy and when it comes to home users there is little need for that kind of advanced functionality.

Ozor Mox
July 31st, 2007, 02:16 PM
I finally want to make a contribution to this mammoth thread.

In the last two weeks, I have reinstalled Windows for two friends who have bogged down versions of XP. We all know what happens after using it for two years...it becomes such a frustrating experience it's barely worth switching the thing on. Since I've done plenty of reinstalling of operating systems, I was called in to help.

On one of the systems, because my copy of XP was not recognised as legal on my friend's machine, I couldn't install service pack 2. His sound drivers required SP2 to work, so he couldn't have any sound. His computer vendor had not given him a reinstallation disc for XP, just a restore disc and some stupid partition on the hard drive with some junk on it for restoring. It was therefore not possible to get his computer in to a working state on XP. Not entirely XP's fault I agree, but I gave him the option of me installing Windows 2000 for him using my 2000 disc not encumbered with copyright activation serial number crap, or Ubuntu, which is of course free and open source letting me install from the very same disc I have installed from several times. He chose Ubuntu. I installed it. His display was set right instantly (XP required ATI driver), sound worked instantly (XP required sound driver), internet worked from behind a router flawlessly. I set up MP3 and DVD to play, showed him a bit about the Windows-Linux differences, and he was set.

Case 2, we formatted and installed XP from a proper full SP2 XP disc my friend had, and it told us we had 30 days to activate it. Wireless drivers did not work and we couldn't get on the internet that way. So I plugged it directly into the router with a LAN cable. Nothing. Used the set up a new network thing in XP, and it told me I did not have the hardware set up correctly. You what? Dell had decided he didn't need an OS or drivers disc either, in their wisdom. So I booted up my trusty Ubuntu live CD which I always keep with me when I'm doing this sort of thing now. Started up no problem, and I got the internet over LAN instantly. I got the required driver for the network card, booted back into Windows and installed, and we were online. Of course again, he required an ATI and sound driver for graphics and sound, with no such requirements in Ubuntu.

I find it shocking that on a computer designed for Windows, the OS can't even set the display or sound right without drivers, and yet a "minority" OS like Ubuntu that it isn't designed for does this flawlessly. What's truly pathetic though, is that Windows couldn't even utilise the network card, probably the simplest bit of hardware in the computer, without a driver, and Ubuntu as usual had no problems.

This has all led me to two conclusions:

1. I believe that Linux is more ready for the desktop than Windows, and is a more advanced operating system. You may think differently and that's fine, this is from my experience.

2. Games are what is holding most people back from switching to Linux. In my first example, I hope my friend stays on Ubuntu, but he wants to play Football Manager so I don't know if he'll hold! :) In the second example, the only thing stopping him from letting me install Ubuntu was his large library of PC games that of course only work on Windows. I actually think if games were released on all platforms and not just Windows, a lot more people would switch.

So there's my input and experience on the readiness of Linux on the desktop. It is ready.

tgm4883
July 31st, 2007, 03:25 PM
I finally want to make a contribution to this mammoth thread.

In the last two weeks, I have reinstalled Windows for two friends who have bogged down versions of XP. We all know what happens after using it for two years...it becomes such a frustrating experience it's barely worth switching the thing on. Since I've done plenty of reinstalling of operating systems, I was called in to help.

On one of the systems, because my copy of XP was not recognised as legal on my friend's machine, I couldn't install service pack 2. His sound drivers required SP2 to work, so he couldn't have any sound. His computer vendor had not given him a reinstallation disc for XP, just a restore disc and some stupid partition on the hard drive with some junk on it for restoring. It was therefore not possible to get his computer in to a working state on XP. Not entirely XP's fault I agree, but I gave him the option of me installing Windows 2000 for him using my 2000 disc not encumbered with copyright activation serial number crap, or Ubuntu, which is of course free and open source letting me install from the very same disc I have installed from several times. He chose Ubuntu. I installed it. His display was set right instantly (XP required ATI driver), sound worked instantly (XP required sound driver), internet worked from behind a router flawlessly. I set up MP3 and DVD to play, showed him a bit about the Windows-Linux differences, and he was set.

Case 2, we formatted and installed XP from a proper full SP2 XP disc my friend had, and it told us we had 30 days to activate it. Wireless drivers did not work and we couldn't get on the internet that way. So I plugged it directly into the router with a LAN cable. Nothing. Used the set up a new network thing in XP, and it told me I did not have the hardware set up correctly. You what? Dell had decided he didn't need an OS or drivers disc either, in their wisdom. So I booted up my trusty Ubuntu live CD which I always keep with me when I'm doing this sort of thing now. Started up no problem, and I got the internet over LAN instantly. I got the required driver for the network card, booted back into Windows and installed, and we were online. Of course again, he required an ATI and sound driver for graphics and sound, with no such requirements in Ubuntu.

I find it shocking that on a computer designed for Windows, the OS can't even set the display or sound right without drivers, and yet a "minority" OS like Ubuntu that it isn't designed for does this flawlessly. What's truly pathetic though, is that Windows couldn't even utilise the network card, probably the simplest bit of hardware in the computer, without a driver, and Ubuntu as usual had no problems.

This has all led me to two conclusions:

1. I believe that Linux is more ready for the desktop than Windows, and is a more advanced operating system. You may think differently and that's fine, this is from my experience.

2. Games are what is holding most people back from switching to Linux. In my first example, I hope my friend stays on Ubuntu, but he wants to play Football Manager so I don't know if he'll hold! :) In the second example, the only thing stopping him from letting me install Ubuntu was his large library of PC games that of course only work on Windows. I actually think if games were released on all platforms and not just Windows, a lot more people would switch.

So there's my input and experience on the readiness of Linux on the desktop. It is ready.

In Windows XP's defense (did I just say that!?!), you were comparing an Operating System from 2002 (had SP1 I assume) to a current OS. A better comparison would have been Windows XP SP2 VS Ubuntu Warty Warthog. Of course an older XP isn't going to have drivers for newer hardware.

I would bet that Windows 98 doesn't find all the drivers for a computer made in 2000.

Espreon
July 31st, 2007, 04:01 PM
This is what I think a Desktop Ready Linux distro should be:

Any person can install it on any computer without any problems
Anyone can use it once it's already been installed and configured
It automatically detects most hardware without the need to hunt down drivers

And my own opinion:

It should come with tools that can easily configure advance options'
It should come with tools like NdisGTK,Ndiswrapper,Envy so one can easily find/download/install and configure easily
Infact I think Ubuntu should come with NdisGTK (so novice users who are scared of the CLI don't hafta use it just to use their wirelesscard [if they are Wincards],also NdisGTK makes the need to type sudo modprobe ndiswrapper in the terminal obsolete)
With me Ndiswrapper/NdisGTK is the thing that lets me use Linux with my Net connection w/o having to use the cable modem in my filthy,unfinished basement
Also I think NdisGTK should come with all distros that come with Ndiswrapper.

Beatbreaker
August 1st, 2007, 09:27 AM
This is what I think a Desktop Ready Linux distro should be:

Any person can install it on any computer without any problems
Anyone can use it once it's already been installed and configured
It automatically detects most hardware without the need to hunt down drivers

And my own opinion:

It should come with tools that can easily configure advance options'
It should come with tools like NdisGTK,Ndiswrapper,Envy so one can easily find/download/install and configure easily
Infact I think Ubuntu should come with NdisGTK (so novice users who are scared of the CLI don't hafta use it just to use their wirelesscard [if they are Wincards],also NdisGTK makes the need to type sudo modprobe ndiswrapper in the terminal obsolete)
With me Ndiswrapper/NdisGTK is the thing that lets me use Linux with my Net connection w/o having to use the cable modem in my filthy,unfinished basement
Also I think NdisGTK should come with all distros that come with Ndiswrapper.

I think your first 3 points are totally right and i couldn't agree more, to add to that i'd be brave enough to say that Ubuntu does not deliver those 3 things (neither does Vista, but i wouldn't call that a decent OS either)

concerning your last points, dude go here and try Sabayon: http://www.sabayonlinux.org/

it's a younger project but is very polished, comes with read/write NTFS support & auto configures Video drivers upon merely booting the Live CD (like Ubuntu should)

dosen't come with compiz "desk top effects" or Beryl, BUT comes with COMPIZ FUSION by default.

i'm aborting Ubuntu, i've had too many problems with it that are inherent in the system - the forums here have been most helpful but i've just had it with the issues that i've faced

simple stuff like auto configure NTFS read/write support should be default.

...the next step i think is having a GUI to configure a 5 button mouse, i'm going to give my friends a live CD of Ubuntu and Sabayon and know that it's going to be embarrassing telling them that something so simple as a 5 button mouse needs system files to be manually edited.

raja
August 1st, 2007, 05:55 PM
This is what I think a Desktop Ready Linux distro should be:

Any person can install it on any computer without any problems
What does that have to do withe desktop readiness?



Anyone can use it once it's already been installed and configured

Accepted - and most modern distros fit in there.



It automatically detects most hardware without the need to hunt down drivers

Again an extension of point 1. And if you use this criterion, Ubuntu is more desktop ready than windows.

fyllekajan
August 1st, 2007, 06:25 PM
That may be true, but hardware is still a big issue. I did research before buying my hardware making sure it was 100% working on linux. Ubuntu hanged on first boot after install. Nothing I couldn't fix with little help from the community. Then recommended Ubuntu to a friend who installed it. X crashed on first boot. I think improvements could be made in documentation of Ubuntu supported hardware and issues. I find it a bit messy the way it is now.

Frak
August 1st, 2007, 08:06 PM
@Esperon, the drivers for Video cards, i.e. Envy scripts, are taken care of in the Restricted Drivers Manger. (System->Administration->Restricted Drivers Manager)

Espreon
August 1st, 2007, 10:38 PM
I think your first 3 points are totally right and i couldn't agree more, to add to that i'd be brave enough to say that Ubuntu does not deliver those 3 things (neither does Vista, but i wouldn't call that a decent OS either)

concerning your last points, dude go here and try Sabayon: http://www.sabayonlinux.org/

it's a younger project but is very polished, comes with read/write NTFS support & auto configures Video drivers upon merely booting the Live CD (like Ubuntu should)

dosen't come with compiz "desk top effects" or Beryl, BUT comes with COMPIZ FUSION by default.

i'm aborting Ubuntu, i've had too many problems with it that are inherent in the system - the forums here have been most helpful but i've just had it with the issues that i've faced

simple stuff like auto configure NTFS read/write support should be default.

...the next step i think is having a GUI to configure a 5 button mouse, i'm going to give my friends a live CD of Ubuntu and Sabayon and know that it's going to be embarrassing telling them that something so simple as a 5 button mouse needs system files to be manually edited.

Dude, I already switched to Sabayon before you wrote that post!

Espreon
August 1st, 2007, 10:44 PM
@Esperon, the drivers for Video cards, i.e. Envy scripts, are taken care of in the Restricted Drivers Manger. (System->Administration->Restricted Drivers Manager)

Actually no not true in all cases, I setup fglrx with syaptic (RDM is just synaptic that can detect whether your comp needs them and can easily download/install them) on my Latest Feisty reinstall but on my latest reinstall setting I had to use Envy to make fglrx and to configure it to work properly. Setup with Envy fglrx+XGL works fine. If RDM really makes Envy obsoluete then why is there a Feisty version? hmmm because Envy can configure the xorg.conf to make it work properly. So to checkmate you Envy and RDM work differently, and Envy still has use!

Frak
August 1st, 2007, 10:49 PM
I'm just saying, Envy scripts should be used as last resort. RDM can take care of at least 78% of the cases.

swoll1980
August 1st, 2007, 10:52 PM
there is no os that works out of the box on every computer

Lozz
August 1st, 2007, 10:54 PM
there is no os that works out of the box on every computer

Well imagine all the unemployed IT workers there would be if there was.

tgm4883
August 2nd, 2007, 12:08 AM
I'm just saying, Envy scripts should be used as last resort. RDM can take care of at least 78% of the cases.

Don't forget, 74.367% of all statistics used in discussions are made up on the spot.


Well imagine all the unemployed IT workers there would be if there was.

There is much work for IT professionals to do after installation. Remember, Windows, keeping IT workers employed since 1985 :)

Espreon
August 2nd, 2007, 12:23 AM
I'm just saying, Envy scripts should be used as last resort. RDM can take care of at least 78% of the cases.

That is true, I only use Envy as a last resort (I don't wana reinstall after reinstalling 10 mins ago!).

Dimitriid
August 2nd, 2007, 12:39 AM
I had way too many problems with my printer and some problems with the usb reader, since I have to leave in like 15 min I was forced to use a windows xp vmware installation I recently installed for fun but now it seems to be really useful.

I blame Canon though, one shouldn't need to hack drivers and hunt down outdated guides and japanese sites for basic functionality, next time im in the market for a printer I'd look for another company that understands they are selling hardware and therefore must provide full specifications for the open source community, I refuse to buy the rights to use a printer so long as I use Windows.

Frak
August 2nd, 2007, 04:08 AM
Don't forget, 74.367% of all statistics used in discussions are made up on the spot.

You are 127,984.98487459347498% correct :)
I was guesstimating.

Frak
August 2nd, 2007, 04:11 AM
I had way too many problems with my printer and some problems with the usb reader, since I have to leave in like 15 min I was forced to use a windows xp vmware installation I recently installed for fun but now it seems to be really useful.

I blame Canon though, one shouldn't need to hack drivers and hunt down outdated guides and japanese sites for basic functionality, next time im in the market for a printer I'd look for another company that understands they are selling hardware and therefore must provide full specifications for the open source community, I refuse to buy the rights to use a printer so long as I use Windows.
Sorry for double posting:
Linux Hardware Boycott list (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=365630)

prizrak
August 2nd, 2007, 01:47 PM
Actually no not true in all cases, I setup fglrx with syaptic (RDM is just synaptic that can detect whether your comp needs them and can easily download/install them) on my Latest Feisty reinstall but on my latest reinstall setting I had to use Envy to make fglrx and to configure it to work properly. Setup with Envy fglrx+XGL works fine. If RDM really makes Envy obsoluete then why is there a Feisty version? hmmm because Envy can configure the xorg.conf to make it work properly. So to checkmate you Envy and RDM work differently, and Envy still has use!

Well if you play with fire.....
There is hardware that doesn't play well with Linux, AMD video cards are probably the best known for that. The thing is that as far as hardware goes only XP can actually use most of the hardware out there. Vista is completely horrible, especially the 64bit one, OS X is an embedded system for all intents and purposes and Linux works very well with alot of hardware but if for some reason it cannot then you are more or less screwed.

Things are improving though, there is the new API for userland drivers that doesn't require drivers to be GPL'ed so that should help the OEM's out.

tjh8021
August 2nd, 2007, 08:30 PM
"Installs on relatively new mainstream computers and runs mainstream applications. "

...and yes, my definition intentionally leaves a lot to interpretation.

I'm a biz/tech newbie hoping to escape microsoft hell.

pavs
August 6th, 2007, 08:28 PM
5 reasons to dump Linux
August 6, 2007 – 11:15 am
I have been using both Linux and windows for as long as I can remember. Both at my Job, my school and home. There are certain thing about linux that bothers me, but there are things thats very unique to linux that you can only dream to have in windows. But today I will only talk about things that will make you want to dump linux.

[snip]

vambo
August 6th, 2007, 08:32 PM
Prick

fwojciec
August 6th, 2007, 08:34 PM
hmmmm

oh well, I guess everyone is entitled to have an opinion and post it on their blog...

SLA_leandrin
August 6th, 2007, 08:36 PM
No way... **** off

em007a
August 6th, 2007, 08:41 PM
No need to be belligerent about it, he is certainly entitled to his opinion. He's wrong on each count, but there's no need to feed him any more attention than he's looking for. [-X

Steveway
August 6th, 2007, 08:43 PM
Anything else you want to tell us, besides this mental fart, pavs?
I see a blog full of myths and lies, what do you want to tell us?

goumples
August 6th, 2007, 08:44 PM
Linux is complicated.

"Linux is unfamiliar to my windows sensibilities". (fixed)


Linux is NOT free.

Yes it is. If you buy support for Red Hat or Novell Suse Linux Enterprise that's your choice. The software itself is however, free. Free as in free to acquire and free to change and manipulate the product.


It’s Open Source.

How does that inherently make Linux more complicated.. If you have no ambition to learn how to toy with the source code, then why should the very fact that linux is open source matter at all.


It just doesn’t work.

Yes, it does. I've yet to find a piece of hardware or software that couldn't be made to run on Linux.. On the other hand, I dare you to take a program that has not be pre-configured to work with the Windows kernel and make it run on windows..


Linux is secure.

In the explanation for this one you stated that windows is just as secure as Linux with the right preparation. And, you also played the "windows is more targeted" card. Try this: plug up a windows box, and a linux box to the internet, add no applications and install nothing just use the base install for each.. leave them plugged up to the internet for a few days and come back and see which one is more secure.

Lord Illidan
August 6th, 2007, 08:46 PM
I'll just post it here..



1) Linux is complicated. Lets face it, as much as the guys at Edubuntu would like you to believe that even a kid can run linux based systems. It’s not always the case. In order for a kid to use a Linux based system an adult has to install the system for them in the first place, you can’t say the same about Windows. I bet any half-brained 10 year old can install a windows system without having to worry about driver support or downloading a source code of a kernel patch and configure it and compile it to run his printer or webcam. Stupid kids.


A kid can run linux based systems fine...my sisters have no problems using Linux (13,11) years old. Sure, I had to install Linux for them, but surprisingly enough, it was the same for Windows, and they have LESS problems with Linux.. go figure.

As regards drivers, if you buy the correct hardware, then there is no need to recompile your kernel.

And I've yet to come across a 10 year old who can install Windows. If they can, it's because someone showed them how so many times that it's become a monthly routine.




2) Linux is NOT free. As much as they tell you that linux is free, it’s not. Yes you can download a buggy, test-bed, Not-so-frequently-updated, half-child named Fedora Core instead of the Commercial Red Hat Linux; Same with Free OpenSuse of the commercial Suse Linux Enterprise and Ubuntu Professional Support System for Ubuntu. Let’s see some qoutes:

http://en.opensuse.org/Welcome_to_openSUSE.org
“openSUSE also provides the base for Novell’s award-winning SUSE Linux Enterprise products.”
http://www.ubuntu.com/support
“The Canonical Global Support Services team understands the challenges you face when introducing and maintaining new platforms and applications, their experience and knowledge base will ensure you maximise the return on your Linux investment. Professional support is also available from companies listed in the Canonical Marketplace.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fedora_(Linux_distribution) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fedora_%28Linux_distribution%29)
“Fedora is derived from the original Red Hat Linux distribution, and it is intended to replace the consumer distributions of Red Hat Linux aimed towards home users. Help for Fedora comes from the greater community; while Red Hat employs many of the Fedora developers, it does not provide official commercial support and services for the distribution.”
If you are looking for free windows beta (like Opensuse and Fedora Core) Just download any beta version of upcoming Windows OS, ie http://www.windowhaxor.net/2007/08/02/just-got-hands-on-ms-server-2008-beta-3/
For Linux, the real deal cost money too.
Stupid Windows.


Somebody's talking out of his ***. Ubuntu is free. The professional support is not. Why? Canonical needs to make money in some way, and does this by selling support.

Same thing for RedHat. Sure, RedHat sells Enterprise RedHat Linux, but it releases the source code under the GPL. Thus, you can recompile it, and finish up with your own version of the latest RedHat EL, without paying a cent. CentOS is one such example. RedHat make their money out of support.

Then, you have gentoo, zenwalk, slackware, debian and tons of other free as in beer linux distros.


3) It’s Open Source. This two words means as much to you as “genetic engineering” does to a taxi driver. If you are not a programmer/developer Open Source means nothing to you. I am guessing every computer user and his uncle in not a programmer. It just makes an average user more confused about a system.
Stupid programmers.

AFAIK, it doesn't cost much to explain the principles of open source..



4) It just doesn’t work. Yes, with Windows you can install it and go on your merry ways of using it. You can’t say the same thing about installing Linux and say “it just works”. Even Dell release of Ubuntu had to make sure that it has custom build computer that would support it, instead of deploying ubuntu on all their product lines. It just doesn’t work.
Stupid Dell.


Perhaps...stupid manufacturers who don't release drivers would be more accurate?


5) Linux is secure. Baloney. With proper planning it is possible to secure both Linux and Windows. Linux has the advantage over windows because it has less viruses and worms and rootkits written against it. But what people who promotes these idea seems to forget that virus-worm-rootkit writers has less system to inflict in the first place. If you were a virus writer would you write a virus for a platform with literally hundreds of millions of systems or for a platform for couple hundred thousands systems? Apple being a *nix based system already is facing security problem as it gets more popular day by day. If linux ever gets as popular as windows it will have it’s fare share of problems as windows currently do. The truth is a system is as secure as the person who is using it. An in properly configured Linux system is just as vulnerable as a windows system.
Stupid Computer Users.

Apache is the most popular internet server, and it is open source. Yet, it has far less vulnerabilities than IIS. Go figure.

igknighted
August 6th, 2007, 08:46 PM
Honestly, I could probably think of five reasons not to run linux. But I don't think any of those would make the list. Lets see...

#1 is a flat out lie. Hand the first 10 year old you see a windows XP disk and tell him to install it. Not a chance in hell.

#2 is BS as well. Community support > paid support any day. I hate trying to get tech support out of paid support folk, they just don't care and you get read some script. The community has people who are there because the actually care. And as far as beta quality software, well, half the web runs on linux (nowhere near all commercial versions, mind you), so that has to stay something. Besides, many would say windows vista is still a beta and they charge for that :).

#3 misses the point. It's not about programmers, but politics. We don't want restrictions on our ownership of the software. Whether or not I change it or not, I want to send a message that restriction on my rights are not acceptable. That said, many could care less about OSS, so if you fit in this category then it might not be a draw for you to linux. But even then, I am hard pressed to find any way that this would be a reason for you to ditch linux. I don't care if my my truck is extended cab or not, should I not drive a truck for that reason?

#4 is legit... IF you have hardare support issues. Mor HW just works for linux than windows, but more hardware works with windows than linux after hours of driver updates. Take that as you will. Guess what, Windows has to select from the specific hardare designed for windows, so guess what, no different!

#5 is baloney (to steal the articles word). If I browse to a dangerous site in windows because I'm too stupid to know better then my computer will get pwned. Do it in linux and laugh because you are fine. And yes, there is truth to the article's statement about security being up to the user, but I'd rather not have 50% of my PCs resources busy locking it down when I can run an OS that doesn't need that.

So there you have it, while there are certainly reasons to leave linux, this article conveniently missed them.

ThinkBuntu
August 6th, 2007, 08:46 PM
Pure drivel. Those arguments are so baseless I won't warrant them the dignity of a rebuttal.

Eddie Wilson
August 6th, 2007, 08:49 PM
5 reasons to dump Linux
August 6, 2007 – 11:15 am
I have been using both Linux and windows for as long as I can remember. Both at my Job, my school and home. There are certain thing about linux that bothers me, but there are things thats very unique to linux that you can only dream to have in windows. But today I will only talk about things that will make you want to dump linux.

http://www.windowhaxor.net/2007/08/06/5-reasons-to-dump-linux/

Sorry that you are not smart enough to know what you are talking about. And the only reason you came around here was to start a fight, so why did you? You know that you can't win. All the crap you say is not going to change the fact that you are a flop at this time. Go home child.):P

dasunst3r
August 6th, 2007, 08:52 PM
Here are a few things I would like you to reconsider:

1. After finishing Windows setup, I had to download and install drivers for my graphics card, network cards (wireless and wired), touchpad, and card reader. I only needed to install the graphics driver after finishing Linux setup -- everything else worked from the get-go. As far as compiling stuff is concerned, I did not have to touch any code -- I only needed to make sure I had the compiling tools and kernel headers installed.
2. While this point is valid to a certain extent, people are paying for support and not so much the software. Indeed, the GPL allows this. Ironically, the free distributions are updated more often because people who use them tend to prefer the bleeding edge; whereas the "enterprise" versions use the "tried-and-true" versions of everything.
3. Open source means more than the fact that everybody stands a chance to benefit from each other's contributions, be it in code, money, or the mere reporting of bugs. I might not change someone's perceptions about open-source, but I'll at least present the facts.
4. I ran Ubuntu Linux on a Dell Inspiron 6000, which is long before Dell even offered Linux on their product line, and it works like a charm. As far as R&D is concerned, Dell has the community to do the testing for them, bringing their costs down to practically nil. If they did their homework (reading), they'll know what hardware works best on Linux. All they needed to do was to market it.
5. Many mission-critical and high-security applications run Linux. They are jackpots for information. Why the hackers don't attack those is a mystery to me.

Nekiruhs
August 6th, 2007, 08:54 PM
Guys, calm down. Look at his post count. 1 post. Chill. He's just a troll. Please don't feed the trolls.

goumples
August 6th, 2007, 08:56 PM
Pure drivel. Those arguments are so baseless I won't warrant them the dignity of a rebuttal.

But, sometimes its just so hard to not feed the trolls. It tempts me so....

init1
August 6th, 2007, 08:56 PM
Those are not good reasons. Linux is free. Support is not. Nor is closed source software. If I wanted Red Hat, I would get the source and compile it. No one is stopping me from doing that. Linux is what it is. Don't like it? Don't use it. Those are personal reasons, not reasons that affect me. But you can complain all you want. Some will get it, others will not.

pavs
August 6th, 2007, 09:06 PM
You guys got it all wrong. This is not a troll. If this was I wouldn't post it on "Other OS Talk" subforum. Also You guys totally missed the part where it says: There are certain thing about linux that bothers me, but there are things thats very unique to linux that you can only dream to have in windows. But today I will only talk about things that will make you want to dump linux.

[snip]

The point is some of us linux users are too closed minded to be even open to the idea that other OS may be good or even OK. the point of the blog post was ONLY point out bad things (in my opinion) about linux.

Cheers
pavs

BC7333
August 6th, 2007, 09:11 PM
I love ubuntu but would gladly pay for someone to develop drivers for this laptop, then give them away free to the community.

As a new linux user, I can sum up the problem with linux in three words..

drivers, Drivers, DRIVERS!!!

Anyone wanting to help out on drivers for a Flybook V5, (touchscreen, webcam and some more) drop me a pm.

All work in windows.. -duh..

em007a
August 6th, 2007, 09:18 PM
What purpose did your post serve except to stir things up? Not to mention that your opinions are just that, your opinions. Each reason you gave can be countered quite easily.

em007a
August 6th, 2007, 09:22 PM
All work in windows.. -duh..

This is a problem with the manufacturer you chose, not a fault of Linux. If you can get the particular specs from the hardware manufacturer, most likely someone would write the drivers for free.

igknighted
August 6th, 2007, 09:29 PM
I love ubuntu but would gladly pay for someone to develop drivers for this laptop, then give them away free to the community.

As a new linux user, I can sum up the problem with linux in three words..

drivers, Drivers, DRIVERS!!!

Anyone wanting to help out on drivers for a Flybook V5, (touchscreen, webcam and some more) drop me a pm.

All work in windows.. -duh..

No offense, but you just paid someone to not make linux drivers. By purchasing from manufacturers that do not support linux you are supporting (with your wallet) that decision. Buy linux friendly hardware and (a) your life will be easier and (b) you will be making it more profitable for companies to support linux. Think before you buy.

BC7333
August 6th, 2007, 09:38 PM
This is a problem with the manufacturer you chose, not a fault of Linux. If you can get the particular specs from the hardware manufacturer, most likely someone would write the drivers for free.

I do understand. My other laptop works fine, so does my desktop. This one is a bit troublesome though. Thanks to good community support my wireless is 'hanging in' there but not yet perfect. I have the info needed for getting the webcam and touchscreen up, but seems my posts are largely ignored. Not that I want instant satisfaction.. even a couple days or week would do..

Click on my nick, view the profile, see my recent posts and help out.. that's what it's all about..

Where there is will, there is a way.. that's what keeps me hanging in there.

Adamant1988
August 6th, 2007, 09:53 PM
Honestly, I could probably think of five reasons not to run linux. But I don't think any of those would make the list. Lets see...

#1 is a flat out lie. Hand the first 10 year old you see a windows XP disk and tell him to install it. Not a chance in hell.

#2 is BS as well. Community support > paid support any day. I hate trying to get tech support out of paid support folk, they just don't care and you get read some script. The community has people who are there because the actually care. And as far as beta quality software, well, half the web runs on linux (nowhere near all commercial versions, mind you), so that has to stay something. Besides, many would say windows vista is still a beta and they charge for that :).

#3 misses the point. It's not about programmers, but politics. We don't want restrictions on our ownership of the software. Whether or not I change it or not, I want to send a message that restriction on my rights are not acceptable. That said, many could care less about OSS, so if you fit in this category then it might not be a draw for you to linux. But even then, I am hard pressed to find any way that this would be a reason for you to ditch linux. I don't care if my my truck is extended cab or not, should I not drive a truck for that reason?

#4 is legit... IF you have hardare support issues. Mor HW just works for linux than windows, but more hardware works with windows than linux after hours of driver updates. Take that as you will. Guess what, Windows has to select from the specific hardare designed for windows, so guess what, no different!

#5 is baloney (to steal the articles word). If I browse to a dangerous site in windows because I'm too stupid to know better then my computer will get pwned. Do it in linux and laugh because you are fine. And yes, there is truth to the article's statement about security being up to the user, but I'd rather not have 50% of my PCs resources busy locking it down when I can run an OS that doesn't need that.

So there you have it, while there are certainly reasons to leave linux, this article conveniently missed them.

Uhm, I've seen a 10 year old install XP... I've also seen my computer illiterate family install XP (well, seen the results of, had I been around they would have had me do it).

Wiebelhaus
August 6th, 2007, 10:04 PM
5 reasons to dump Linux
August 6, 2007 – 11:15 am
I have been using both Linux and windows for as long as I can remember. Both at my Job, my school and home. There are certain thing about linux that bothers me, but there are things thats very unique to linux that you can only dream to have in windows. But today I will only talk about things that will make you want to dump linux.

http://www.windowhaxor.net/2007/08/06/5-reasons-to-dump-linux/

I stopped reading right here:


I bet any half-brained 10 year old can install a windows system without having to worry about driver support or downloading a source code of a kernel patch and configure it and compile it to run his printer or webcam. Stupid kids.

Because it's simply BS , Ever tried to set up a promise controller in windows? better yet in NT? or lexmark Printer drivers the utmost worst of all? what about the newest Nvidia drivers 162 in XP ? Blowing up all over the place , even a Ten year old can fix that.

Good job trying to get Techs to agree with you when you insult 95% of us , does this forum have an ignore function..

crane
August 6th, 2007, 10:26 PM
Why can't we just Delete these posts from trolls. This "post" he made on his blog is probably the most uninformed write up I have ever seen. So why waste our time or even one thought process on this.
His blog is a prime example of what happens when someone with lack of experience starts giving advice.

Eddie Wilson
August 6th, 2007, 10:34 PM
Good job trying to get Techs to agree with you when you insult 95% of us , does this forum have an ignore function..

It sure does. Just click on his name, click public profiles, and add him to your ignore list.

Eddie

Lord Illidan
August 6th, 2007, 10:35 PM
The point is some of us linux users are too closed minded to be even open to the idea that other OS may be good or even OK. the point of the blog post was ONLY point out bad things (in my opinion) about linux.

That's fine with me. I know that other OSes are also good. But still, you chose the wrong way to express this, by pointing out disadvantages of Linux which don't exist in the first place. I am not saying it is perfect, but it is a very good OS.

aysiu
August 6th, 2007, 10:37 PM
This user may or may not be a troll. If you genuinely believe her or him to be a troll, stop responding. Otherwise, let's keep it civil.

Since this covers a lot of the same ground that's been covered before, I've merged it with the Linux Desktop Readiness thread.

Eddie Wilson
August 6th, 2007, 10:40 PM
Since this covers a lot of the same ground that's been covered before, I've merged it with the Linux Desktop Readiness thread.

Good Job!

Eddie

Frak
August 6th, 2007, 11:01 PM
Don't worry, this blog isn't even close to being popular enough to make a difference.
To the OP, instead of Bashing Linux, consider helping it instead. Bashing Linux solves nothing, but if you find something wrong about it, report it to us and we can help fix it.

Thats why there is forum here, so we can help YOU.

ertrules22
August 6th, 2007, 11:02 PM
I hope that Ubuntu will be a little more user friendly on the installation level in the future, but for above average users right now, I think that it is pretty user friendly and somewhat desktop ready. It does have a pile of bugs that need to be worked out, but I am happy with my laptop that runs it.

Buendia
August 7th, 2007, 02:04 AM
Here (http://www.pcmech.com/article/can-linux-replace-windows/).

juxtaposed
August 7th, 2007, 02:21 AM
Can Linux Replace Windows?

It has for most of the stuff I do.

From the article...


Installing programs should be as easy as double-clicking a file (not tracking down package dependencies).

It has kind of. Right click on a .deb, open with GDebi, and press install.

forrestcupp
August 7th, 2007, 02:26 AM
Linux needs to operate more and more like Windows. It is getting there. But, Linux needs to get such that you don’t need a command line hardly at all. Installing programs should be as easy as double-clicking a file (not tracking down package dependencies). Again, Linux is going to have to play by the rules set by Windows in order to take Windows down a notch.
The guy must not have ever seen Synaptic.

Other than that, I agree with most things he said.

izanbardprince
August 7th, 2007, 02:29 AM
The thing that annoys me is trying to deal with software that doesn't come in a nice DEB package, it always leaves me cussing whenever I come across something where the guy either just tarballed the source (or the compiled product) and says "here".

vexorian
August 7th, 2007, 02:32 AM
At the time, it was essentially the only desktop operating system worth anybody’s time. At the time,biiaaas.



What would need to happen for Linux to become more of a replacement?

* Linux needs to operate more and more like Windows. It is getting there. But, Linux needs to get such that you don’t need a command line hardly at all.

Already there.



Installing programs should be as easy as double-clicking a file

No, it shouldn't. I think synaptic is the perfect balance between "please know what you are doing" and "easy of use" the problem with windows is that installing things is way TOO easy.



(not tracking down package dependencies).
This shows that the guy didn't make his homework, with synaptic and also rpm and stuff, there is as much dependency hell as there is with windows (hey, ever tried using an installer that was not compatible with your MSI version?)



Again, Linux is going to have to play by the rules set by Windows in order to take Windows down a notch.


Why? Why should Linux be as broken as windows in order to beat it? Also, I don't really think I want Linux to beat windows, I just want it to gain a decent market share, and in the desktop world 10% is a decent share. See firefox, it is far from achieving total market dominance yet it is so big already that nobody can ignore it, web sites have to follow the global rules instead of simply dumping out IE only pages.



* Open standards need to become more the norm than the exceptions. Companies should make a special point to use open standards. For example, using OpenOffice rather than Microsoft Office will make your documents more open and more cross platform.

In this regards I agree, the world should use open standards, it is the only rational thing to do, but somehow they don't , we need to reeducate people I guess.


* Vendors need to flow more effort into supporting Linux. It’s a bit of the chicken and the egg problem, though. They will put more effort into it if Linux gets popular enough to warrant their time.

On the other side, Linux isn’t really going to get that popular if these vendors don’t do it.

there's not much that can be done here besides, keeping improving and trying to offer decent compatibility. And I actually think that if we try harder things will change, and if I am not being over optimistic things are changing already. I think that Linux has managed to get considerable amounts of users already without the help of the hardware vendors and that it can only go up. (The numbers are miserable in comparison to windows' market share but they are big)

phrostbyte
August 7th, 2007, 02:44 AM
Ubuntu is not Windows, and it will never be Windows.
It's goal is not to strive to be more like Windows.

Please read this:

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=58017

and this

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=439163

Also read this:
http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm

reyfer
August 7th, 2007, 02:44 AM
All I have to say is that if I wanted something that works like windows, I would be using windows.

Dimitriid
August 7th, 2007, 04:07 AM
I dont agree. Playing by windows "rules" means adding unnecessary levels of complexity or failing that, making the same mistakes.

People should learn not only from the mistakes made by Microsoft's design but they need to learn their own mistakes cause your average windows users its a liability to ANY system.

If a person refuses to learn from mistakes like "Yeah I can just open this little program I downloaded no problem" it wont take long before he is saying "Yea I can just doubleclick this little .deb file I found, sure here's my password no problem". Or "yea there's no problem ill read this email attachment from a complete stranger on IE no problem" its gonna just be replaced for "yea there's no problem ill read this email attachment from a complete stranger on Epiphany/Konqueror no problem"

Point and click ain't enough, if you don't want to bother beyond point and click please do the world a favor and stick to your TV Removes, Microwaves and cellphones ok?

steven8
August 7th, 2007, 04:09 AM
Linux has already replace windows for me in the form of Ubuntu. I don't want it to be 'like' windows, and if something 'requires' windows, I don't require it. 'Nuff said.

Somenoob
August 7th, 2007, 04:15 AM
The article's author wants it to be more like windows, which it is not.

frup
August 7th, 2007, 04:42 AM
Ubuntu is perfect, all I am interested in is the development of individual projects.

Using synaptic is the smartest way of installing software I have ever come across. If Ubuntu was the dominant OS we would see many trusted 3rd party apps maintaining their own repos I'm sure... Adding those 3rd party repos would be trivial and instead of having anti-virus the most you would need is a repo validator/certification scheme.

steveneddy
August 7th, 2007, 04:45 AM
We are already a Linux only family. Linux has already replaced Windows in my home.

give me a windows machine and it will be wiped of Microsoft and Linux installed in less than an hour.

If you want Windows so bad, run Windows.

There are those of us that think that Windows is NOT the standard that we compare to.

King_Critter
August 7th, 2007, 05:05 AM
Well, it's replaced Windows for me, at any rate. About the only thing I find wrong about it is the lack of games -- which isn't near as big of an issue as I'd thought it would be. Before switching to Ubuntu, I figured I'd use it for most things but dual-boot for games. Well, guess what? I have a Windows install disk sitting right here, next to my computer, and I still haven't got around to installing it. Wine runs Diablo II and StarCraft, and as I found out that's all I really care about. Sure, I've got a few other games, but I don't really miss 'em. I might install Windows down the road... or I might not. We'll see. :)

vexorian
August 7th, 2007, 05:16 AM
A better question would be:

"Should Linux replace windows?"

Or even better:

"Do we need another windows?"

popch
August 7th, 2007, 07:51 AM
Does anyone here remember OS/2?

'A better Windows than Windows'

moffatt666
August 7th, 2007, 12:24 PM
This reminds me of an article on Cnet about building your own server - saying it is impossibly difficult to do with Linux. If it is impossible, why can my mum do it?

forrestcupp
August 7th, 2007, 01:25 PM
This reminds me of an article on Cnet about building your own server - saying it is impossibly difficult to do with Linux. If it is impossible, why can my mum do it?

Did your mum build a server, or a desktop computer? They're very different.

For those of you complaining about the author saying that Linux needs to be more like Windows - That kind of irked me a little, too, but if you read carefully, he's not saying it needs to be just like Windows. He's saying it needs to be more like Windows in that it uses more GUI and less CLI. I agree with that, but I also think the guy doesn't realize that it's already getting more like that.

Lord Illidan
August 7th, 2007, 01:35 PM
Back in 2001, Microsoft (http://www.microsoft.com/)came out with Windows XP. At the time, it was essentially the only desktop operating system worth anybody’s time.

I have to agree. At that time, XP supported far more devices and applications than Linux had, before Linux gained ground in the desktop market.



Linux needs to operate more and more like Windows. It is getting there. But, Linux needs to get such that you don’t need a command line hardly at all. Installing programs should be as easy as double-clicking a file (not tracking down package dependencies). Again, Linux is going to have to play by the rules set by Windows in order to take Windows down a notch.


Here I have to agree. Sure, some programs are released as .debs. However, most are not. And then, don't forget, he is not talking about Ubuntu. He's talking about Linux, where we have :

2 large package camps - RPM and DEB, and a host of distros using either one or the other. And a host of websites hosting either one or the other..sometimes both, if you are lucky.

Compiling from scratch is easy for a small application. This week I compiled the latest monodevelop for Zenwalk, it took me a whole day to hunt down the dependencies.


Open standards need to become more the norm than the exceptions. Companies should make a special point to use open standards. For example, using OpenOffice rather than Microsoft Office will make your documents more open and more cross platform.


Again, he is making a very valid point.



Vendors need to flow more effort into supporting Linux. It’s a bit of the chicken and the egg problem, though. They will put more effort into it if Linux gets popular enough to warrant their time. On the other side, Linux isn’t really going to get that popular if these vendors don’t do it.


Another valid point.

Lord Illidan
August 7th, 2007, 01:37 PM
Did your mum build a server, or a desktop computer? They're very different.

For those of you complaining about the author saying that Linux needs to be more like Windows - That kind of irked me a little, too, but if you read carefully, he's not saying it needs to be just like Windows. He's saying it needs to be more like Windows in that it uses more GUI and less CLI. I agree with that, but I also think the guy doesn't realize that it's already getting more like that.

He does recognise that..I think he's saying it's not enough, and I agree. I believe that the whole thing, even advanced administration should be capable of being done just with the GUI. Of course the CLI will still be there for who needs it.

DoctorMO
August 7th, 2007, 01:58 PM
The thing that annoys me is trying to deal with software that doesn't come in a nice DEB package, it always leaves me cussing whenever I come across something where the guy either just tarballed the source (or the compiled product) and says "here".

Yes but you never ask a friendly package maintainer to create you a nice deb, who can then talk with the project devs to upload the deb package files to the source code and any patches for ubuntu. I think a lot of people lack communication understanding, the community isn't psychic and you should do your part by encouraging projects to have the deb files in their projects by default.

It's so easy to compain, but getting off your bum and doing something about it... nah.

buzzmandt
August 7th, 2007, 02:02 PM
I think it comes down to drivers, and games....
All my friends and most my family that have seen my ubuntu install and beryl have said "If it would only run game "xyz" I'd run it.

Some examples
silk road online (I know some have got it to run in wine, I haven't and when it does it's a pain to get it to work)
WW2 online
bf42, 2, 2142, COD2...some of these work with wine/cedega but most that do won't play online because of punkbuster, which adds
punkbuster support for games
The ability to buy a game that just came out, and play it in linux or windows with relative ease of install.

most people would be fine with CLI and to do a bit more "work" to make things work with a free OS, but things (especially games) need to work b4 more people use it.
I haven't booted to windows in several months, but when MOH airborne assault comes out I know I'll need windows to run it, but would love to just buy it and have it work in my linux environment..

moffatt666
August 7th, 2007, 02:21 PM
Did your mum build a server, or a desktop computer? They're very different.

Server. Based on Xununtu with Samba - it took a total of 1 hour including Xubuntu install.

vexorian
August 7th, 2007, 03:06 PM
I used to be an avid gamer but I am not sure if the games issue is as big as it is portrayed.

Sure you won't get to play any of the latest games, but I think there are plenty of good games for Linux out there.

Also, consoles are still a much larger market than PCs and they tend to be miles away graphics-wise, so I think users could survive without PC games.

forrestcupp
August 7th, 2007, 05:17 PM
Yes but you never ask a friendly package maintainer to create you a nice deb, who can then talk with the project devs to upload the deb package files to the source code and any patches for ubuntu. I think a lot of people lack communication understanding, the community isn't psychic and you should do your part by encouraging projects to have the deb files in their projects by default.

It's so easy to compain, but getting off your bum and doing something about it... nah.
Most normal users don't really know who to ask. I don't personally know any package maintainers or project devs. The best thing I've seen in this area was a thread the other day where a nice person was asking what apps people wanted him to package.


Server. Based on Xununtu with Samba - it took a total of 1 hour including Xubuntu install.

awesome!

jgrabham
August 7th, 2007, 05:40 PM
Does anyone here remember OS/2?

'A better Windows than Windows'

Haha, only 15, but still get that :}

(Thats what you get from reading "PC upgrading &maintaining, 1996 edition")

But if we get rid of windows, who will say "network unavailable, please contact your network administrator" "But my psychiatrist told me not to talk to myself"

popch
August 7th, 2007, 05:51 PM
Haha, only 15, but still get that :}

(Thats what you get from reading "PC upgrading &maintaining, 1996 edition")

Remarkable, really. :popcorn:

BDNiner
August 7th, 2007, 09:28 PM
Can Linux replace windows in the home desktop market. Yes and actually very well. I run both windows and ubuntu at home.

Can linux replace windows in the server market. Yes and No. Most serves that i have worked on have been some form of linux. But i find the most important server at organisations i have worked at have been windows domain controllers. I currently work at a company that has a Novell network, so it is all netware. Also a viable alternative for an Exchange server would be good. and one the works with pdas and smart phones. We have to use exchange for our blackberry server, there is no support for linux in that respect.

for the enterprise desktop market. No, not until MS starts using more open standards. I tried to switch to SLED10 for my work computer and found that the word and excel documents i was being e-mailed would not open correctly or print correctly. Also windows has a lot more enterprise management tools that I haven't found on Linux so far. I haven't even found a replacement for Hyper Terminal so i can manage all our switches and printers through the CLI.

So i agree with the article, for home use Linux has made a lot of strides, but there is still a lot of work to be done. I don't think in an enterprise environment you can go 100% Linux, maybe more like 40% linux 60% windows.

aysiu
August 7th, 2007, 09:32 PM
I've merged this with the desktop readiness thread. Seems an appropriate place to put it.

DoctorMO
August 7th, 2007, 09:35 PM
Good idea aysiu; but as you say Ubuntu isn't meant to be a windows replacement but a windows alternative; some guys even here don't get that.

aysiu
August 7th, 2007, 09:53 PM
Good idea aysiu; but as you say Ubuntu isn't meant to be a windows replacement but a windows alternative; some guys even here don't get that.
Well, in all fairness, it's probably because of the way Ubuntu is hyped up in the tech news. There are too many articles making it sound as if Ubuntu is a free version of Windows... or a crappy imitation of a free version of Windows.

Rarely do you see news stories portraying Ubuntu realistically.

popch
August 7th, 2007, 10:07 PM
Can Linux replace windows .

I don't quite agree here. Let's do this step by step:


the most important server at organisations i have worked at have been windows domain controllers.

Those are needed only for Windows systems, i.e. other servers and - presumably more important - your clients. No Windows clients - no domain controllers.


Also a viable alternative for an Exchange server would be good. and one the works with pdas and smart phones. .

The Exchange server stores mails, contacts and calendar data. There are alternatives for those functions, either as single functions or even in the very same combination. Others in this forum know more than I do.


We have to use exchange for our blackberry server, there is no support for linux in that respect.


I can't help here. If blackberry is an absolute 'must', and there are no open source alternatives, then you can continue running Exchange. The costs of running this service is debited to the infrastructure needed for supporting blackberries. That's simple accounting but could help in deciding on an IT architecture.


for the enterprise desktop market. No, not until MS starts using more open standards..

Snowball in Hell. That's the whole idea behind the proprietary formats: to keep you locked into the products of one supplier. That's the exact opposite of Open Source products. Thus, MS holds your corporate knowledge as ransom for the good conduct or your IT purchasing department.

Silver lining: so-called ('more') open formats are arriving. See other threads on those.


I tried to switch to SLED10 for my work computer and found that the word and excel documents i was being e-mailed would not open correctly or print correctly.

I find that statement plainly puzzling. I routinely process MS Word or Excel document in OpenOffice. True, there are some minor differences in Layout or in the availability of fonts and such. But never, in the last few years, have I encountered any document which would not 'open correctly' or 'print correctly'.

A funny little incident: Where I work, we just finished migrating from MS Office 2000 to MS Office 2003. During that migration, we found a couple of documents - produced with Office 2000 or Office XP - which would not open in Office 2003. I was able to open those document and save them in the proprietary MS Office format - using Open Office in Ubuntu. They now work flawlessly in Office 2003.


Also windows has a lot more enterprise management tools that I haven't found on Linux so far. I haven't even found a replacement for Hyper Terminal so i can manage all our switches and printers through the CLI..

Windows has more enterprise management tools (purchaseable as separate products, of course) than Linux because you need more separate tools in Windows. Many capabilities are already built into Linux or are shipped with linux which you have to find and install separately on that 'other' one.

HyperTerminal is a nice terminal emulator for Windows. I am quite certain that Linux has one out of the box.

I find it quite charming that you think you might be unable to use Linux for your work for lack of a CLI.


there is still a lot of work to be done. I don't think in an enterprise environment you can go 100% Linux, maybe more like 40% linux 60% windows.

There is indeed a lot of work to be done, but by the professionals working in the organizations which still employ Windows by default.

It is quite conceivable that a zero Windows environment is not possible to arrive at. It is even more credible that this will not be done for reasons of cost effectiveness. Replacing existing (Windows based) applications costs money and takes time and labor.

The main reason because Windows will remain in quite a few organization is not remotely technical. It is just that

no one has ever been fired for buying Microsoft (trad, anon).

prizrak
August 8th, 2007, 04:47 AM
Can Linux replace windows in the home desktop market. Yes and actually very well. I run both windows and ubuntu at home.

Can linux replace windows in the server market. Yes and No. Most serves that i have worked on have been some form of linux. But i find the most important server at organisations i have worked at have been windows domain controllers. I currently work at a company that has a Novell network, so it is all netware. Also a viable alternative for an Exchange server would be good. and one the works with pdas and smart phones. We have to use exchange for our blackberry server, there is no support for linux in that respect.

for the enterprise desktop market. No, not until MS starts using more open standards. I tried to switch to SLED10 for my work computer and found that the word and excel documents i was being e-mailed would not open correctly or print correctly. Also windows has a lot more enterprise management tools that I haven't found on Linux so far. I haven't even found a replacement for Hyper Terminal so i can manage all our switches and printers through the CLI.

So i agree with the article, for home use Linux has made a lot of strides, but there is still a lot of work to be done. I don't think in an enterprise environment you can go 100% Linux, maybe more like 40% linux 60% windows.
Interesting, the company I work for brought in 2.2Billions in revenue last year. The application is fed by UNIX servers.... Seems pretty damn important to me..... Also we have X terminals (just dumb terminals hooked up to a UNIX server) to manage all our machines and we ssh/telnet into routers and other servers all the time. Without Hyper Terminal mind you ;)

The reason why Domain Controllers are Windows is because it's a Windows only environment. You could just as easily set up an LDAP or other directory service but it would be a pain getting Windows machines on it. A Domain is relatively easy to set up (I did it before) when your entire install base is Windows.

Exchange is a problem, Linux doesn't really have a viable replacement. Blackberry's are one of the biggest things in enterprise right now and not having support for it does hurt the chances of the OS.

Brunellus
August 8th, 2007, 06:57 AM
the Blackberry's day is numbered. Right now, Blackberry survives because there is really no city-wide (or region-wide) wireless broadband network.

But when you can get IP *anywhere*, why would you even bother with Blackberry?

ukripper
August 8th, 2007, 09:26 AM
Blackberry is thing of past now. Working for investment bank i have seen number of changes in past few years and Blackberry is one of them. Our firm have completely scrapped the idea of Blackberry instead provided mobile phones and laptops to all our employees which can connect through 3G anywhere.

I don't see any point having a blackberry anyways

Frak
August 8th, 2007, 09:45 AM
Backberries seriously can't do half of what one Cell Phone and one Laptop with a Wireless Broadband card can do. The Cell phone was at least build to talk, and the laptop can not only run faster and store more, but it can also be modified greater to meet the need.
In fact, the phone is a great broadband card/device.

Brunellus
August 8th, 2007, 01:57 PM
Backberries seriously can't do half of what one Cell Phone and one Laptop with a Wireless Broadband card can do. The Cell phone was at least build to talk, and the laptop can not only run faster and store more, but it can also be modified greater to meet the need.
In fact, the phone is a great broadband card/device.
here in DC, the Crackberry's a way of life. So much communication happens by e-mail in this town (instead of via SMS or voice call) that the Blackberry's pretty much entrenched.

Again, that will change once pervasive IP networks hit.

tgm4883
August 8th, 2007, 06:26 PM
here in DC, the Crackberry's a way of life. So much communication happens by e-mail in this town (instead of via SMS or voice call) that the Blackberry's pretty much entrenched.

Again, that will change once pervasive IP networks hit.

I have only briefly played with a blackberry, but is it really that more functional than my palm based treo? My treo works perfectly with Ubuntu.

Brunellus
August 8th, 2007, 06:37 PM
I have only briefly played with a blackberry, but is it really that more functional than my palm based treo? My treo works perfectly with Ubuntu.
The thing that Blackberry got right--that other mobile device vendors have not yet gotten--is that most mobile device users don't *want* one gadget that does everything poorly.

The Blackberry does one thing really really well: it's an e-mail appliance. It's actually a pretty well thought-out e-mail appliance at that--easy to read e-mails at a glance, and very quick to reply to them. The treo feels pretty kludgy by comparison, IMO.

Verizon has a lock on Blackberries here in DC (with a minority using T-mob) because only Verizon has repeaters in the Metro tunnels.

What I'd want would be a Blackberry that did straight-up IP, and got my e-mail in the same way.

prizrak
August 8th, 2007, 08:02 PM
Backberries seriously can't do half of what one Cell Phone and one Laptop with a Wireless Broadband card can do. The Cell phone was at least build to talk, and the laptop can not only run faster and store more, but it can also be modified greater to meet the need.
In fact, the phone is a great broadband card/device.

You can't really carry your laptop on your hip can you? The point of Blackberries here at the company I work for is that you can get e-mail anywhere w/o having to have a PC. It works very well for the 24x7 support staff and supervisors. Especially the supervisors need that as they can walk around the floor w/o fear that they'll miss an important e-mail.

tgm4883
August 8th, 2007, 08:13 PM
You can't really carry your laptop on your hip can you? The point of Blackberries here at the company I work for is that you can get e-mail anywhere w/o having to have a PC. It works very well for the 24x7 support staff and supervisors. Especially the supervisors need that as they can walk around the floor w/o fear that they'll miss an important e-mail.

Depends on the laptop. Have you seen the Ultra Portables with the 5" screens?

Brunellus
August 8th, 2007, 08:15 PM
Depends on the laptop. Have you seen the Ultra Portables with the 5" screens?
blackberries are a fraction of the price, and more usable for their narrow use.

tgm4883
August 8th, 2007, 08:33 PM
blackberries are a fraction of the price, and more usable for their narrow use.

? The Ultra Portables are full PC's (well, they do have Vista Premium installed on them, so I guess they have that against them).

For about $900, seems like a good deal if you want a laptop with you at all times. With that being said, I still prefer my Treo. Perhaps it's the blackberry email service that you prefer? Whats so great about that again?

Brunellus
August 8th, 2007, 08:40 PM
? The Ultra Portables are full PC's (well, they do have Vista Premium installed on them, so I guess they have that against them).

For about $900, seems like a good deal if you want a laptop with you at all times. With that being said, I still prefer my Treo. Perhaps it's the blackberry email service that you prefer? Whats so great about that again?
cheap, effective, and deployable. Organizations don't make purchasing decisions the way individual nerds do.

tgm4883
August 8th, 2007, 08:45 PM
cheap, effective, and deployable. Organizations don't make purchasing decisions the way individual nerds do.

Must suck to work at your organization. My organization comes to me and asks me what to get.

Frak
August 8th, 2007, 08:46 PM
Must suck to work at your organization. My organization comes to me and asks me what to get.
+1 here.

Brunellus
August 8th, 2007, 09:09 PM
Must suck to work at your organization. My organization comes to me and asks me what to get.
You're probably in the minority.

In my field, the corporate leadership tends to be taken by people who are very good at business--and not necessarily very technically-minded. They don't want to be bothered with the details, they just want it done with as little disruption to their lives as possible.

There's a lesson here: ". . . the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill" (Ecclesiastes 9:11)

They'll ask; whether they listen to you or the sales guy is anybody's guess.

tgm4883
August 8th, 2007, 09:18 PM
You're probably in the minority.

In my field, the corporate leadership tends to be taken by people who are very good at business--and not necessarily very technically-minded. They don't want to be bothered with the details, they just want it done with as little disruption to their lives as possible.

There's a lesson here: ". . . the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill" (Ecclesiastes 9:11)

They'll ask; whether they listen to you or the sales guy is anybody's guess.

Then I refer back to my previous statement, as my organization has me buy also. Maybe my organization is just better about listening to me say what we need and why, maybe i'm better at writing proposals, or maybe I just have a higher credit limit on my card.

prizrak
August 9th, 2007, 01:56 PM
? The Ultra Portables are full PC's (well, they do have Vista Premium installed on them, so I guess they have that against them).

For about $900, seems like a good deal if you want a laptop with you at all times. With that being said, I still prefer my Treo. Perhaps it's the blackberry email service that you prefer? Whats so great about that again?
The Blackberry does exactly what they need it to. It has the ability to send/recieve phonecalls/e-mails, it is fairly portable and integrates well with Exchange. There is also a large amount of corporate support from RIM to help with any issues that may arise.

Your company may ask you on what to get but is there really anything that you would need a Treo for in an organizational setting that you could not use the Blackberry for?

tgm4883
August 9th, 2007, 05:38 PM
The Blackberry does exactly what they need it to. It has the ability to send/recieve phonecalls/e-mails, it is fairly portable and integrates well with Exchange. There is also a large amount of corporate support from RIM to help with any issues that may arise.

Your company may ask you on what to get but is there really anything that you would need a Treo for in an organizational setting that you could not use the Blackberry for?

Nope, in fact, I don't even remember why we are talking about treo's and blackberry's. Isn't this the Linux Desktop Readiness Thread?

prizrak
August 10th, 2007, 03:46 AM
Nope, in fact, I don't even remember why we are talking about treo's and blackberry's. Isn't this the Linux Desktop Readiness Thread?

Someone mentioned Exchange and BB use as one of the reasons it's impossible to switch enterprise to Linux 100%

Moonlight Draughting
August 16th, 2007, 07:03 PM
First of all, I want to start out with this; Linux is the much better than Xp.

or is it. all you hard core linux users suck, bill gates is more superior than any of you guys

ok did i get anyones attention, please listen closely and understand

suse was the first linux i installed 6 weeks ago, i want to convert and be linux and use some apple for my architectural uses only

no forums or google searched could hlep me and still things dont help me

i have understood that linux as many distro's i like that and i dont because you have to find what works for you, for the ubuntu's listen closely to this as well,

i do see all why i like this over xp yes i can customize the login screen yp still cant get that to work for me exept what is in the list to choose from i have downloaded and serached and still cant get it to work.

the next issue is the sound on my ibm 600e

first when you guys tell people these things u should understand like myself i have a year programming and networking so walking around i am understanding but somethings i still cant get to work

instead of a form why cant some one do screen shots of fixing the sound or better yet i see forum after forum help to fix ibm 600e so i really like the ubuntu but i formatted my laptop last night and put mandrian and i will put suse, fedora, slackware, and try the top 10 out there when i find the one that picks sound up i will then find does this work and work ok so i am satisfied with this distro then i will put money and help fund this over and over and will never use ubuntu or other distros but the one i choose, ubuntu see's the issue

SOMEONE NEEDS TO MAKE IT EASIER FOR PEOPLE THTA DONT UNDERSTAND LINUX OR ANY OF THESE THINGS. BECAUSE IF I CANT GET THIS FIXED WITHIN THE MONTH I WILL LEAVE UBUNTU ALL TOGETHER AND I WILL FIND A LINUX FOR ME

OR I WILL CRAWL BACK TO GATES, BECAUSE WHEN I RUN XP ON THAT EVERYTHING WORKS GREAT THE ONLY PROBS. I HAVE WITH GATES IS THE SAME THAT EVERYONE ELSE HAS.

GOT TO GET BACK TO WORK SO WILL FINISH WHAT I AM TRYING TO SAY

psusi
August 16th, 2007, 07:04 PM
Thank you for sharing your worthless opinion...please go back to ripping the heads off of your sister's barbie dolls.

wolfen69
August 16th, 2007, 07:06 PM
i have the opposite problem. i find linux easier than windows. to each his own.

edit: hey mods, this might get ugly. can it be removed or moved to testimonials?

Arthur Archnix
August 16th, 2007, 07:09 PM
My god... you're... you're so right. How could I have been so blind?

I'd like to thank you, and subscribe to your magazine as well.

Please, pass along my apologies to Bill.

Edit:I agree with above. This sounds like a testimonial.

w4ett
August 16th, 2007, 07:12 PM
Just subscribed to this thread....I need some flames to toast my marshmallows!

overdrank
August 16th, 2007, 07:12 PM
Good Luck and happy hunting!

DID not think it would stay in beginners for long!! and was right!!!!!!!!!!!!

bodhi.zazen
August 16th, 2007, 07:14 PM
Thread merged.

{A}Poly
August 16th, 2007, 07:16 PM
judging by the grammar and use of caps lock; I bet you're a 11 year old kid who (just because he can't get something to work) has to go waist people times on forums.

WebSiteGuru
August 16th, 2007, 07:19 PM
WOW! Sound like someone need to go work out the stress factor.

Being New to Linux myself and I am also have years experience in Network, PC Technician, amonng other things (Lightweight Programing).


Eventhou, I am having troubles with getting Ubuntu to work like what I want (IE: viewing Vidio on the web, Installing Windows apps in Wine, etc...)

I refused to go back to Windows (as what my signature said). I know it is a learning curve. We all had been there at one point. But as you learn you progress. I never learn Linux Command or know how to use Linux before. But I am willing to learn.

Users here are helpfull if you asked the right question. So, give them a chance to do so. If you can not find what you read in the forum. Post your question. It will be answer.

Dont throw out a gripe session on your first post.

It doesnt matter which distro you will try, if you dont ask any question or if you asked a wrong question. You will also run into the same stopping block. Hope you understand.

Frak
August 16th, 2007, 07:49 PM
Could the OP please repost, I can't really understand from bad grammar and punctuation. I eventualy got lost at the part with the suse, so 3rd line.

tgm4883
August 16th, 2007, 07:58 PM
Could the OP please repost, I can't really understand from bad grammar and punctuation. I eventualy got lost at the part with the suse, so 3rd line.

That would now be pointed at Moonlight Draughting as that thread is now merged with the Linux Desktop Readiness Thread

DARKGuy
August 17th, 2007, 12:16 AM
Windows is Free (http://tlug.jp/articles/Windows_Is_Free)

Interesting article.

hinachan
August 18th, 2007, 10:39 AM
Windows is Free (http://tlug.jp/articles/Windows_Is_Free)

Interesting article.
Interesting, but completely off-target. The reason people avoid Linux is that it's harder to learn, and harder to get answers to their questions. When I was learning Windows, I never had to sign up on a forum to ask questions; the info was out there, in books and magazines. With Linux, you have to search forums for answers, search the internet for answers, waste countless hours that could be spent on productivity--hours that people don't have time to waste. There just aren't enough good reference books and magazines.

And the harsh reality is that, yes, you do have to use the command line--which steepens the learning curve even more.

Finally, fonts just look horrible in so many Linux applications, that it causes eyestrain for people who spend hours doing word processing, etc.

I hate using Windows for ethical reasons, but I just can't make the switch completely until Linux cleans up its fonts, and info becomes readily available and easy-to-find. People just don't have time to scour forums and the internet for something that should be intuitive and easy to figure out for yourself. I'd love to switch to Linux full-time, but it's simply not feasible for people like me, at this point in time.

darrenm
August 18th, 2007, 04:19 PM
Interesting, but completely off-target. The reason people avoid Linux is that it's harder to learn, and harder to get answers to their questions. When I was learning Windows, I never had to sign up on a forum to ask questions; the info was out there, in books and magazines. With Linux, you have to search forums for answers, search the internet for answers, waste countless hours that could be spent on productivity--hours that people don't have time to waste. There just aren't enough good reference books and magazines.

I think the article is pretty close to the mark. People dont care or dont know. The key here is your hardware. I'll bet anything you had to search about online was to do with your hardware. Otherwise nothing needs the command line.


And the harsh reality is that, yes, you do have to use the command line--which steepens the learning curve even more.

Its the reality for some people. Try using hardware from manufacturers that support Linux. I do and I never have to go to the command line (I do anyway but because I choose to as its quicker to type agd than click on the auto-updates icon


Finally, fonts just look horrible in so many Linux applications, that it causes eyestrain for people who spend hours doing word processing, etc.

I've never had any problem with the fonts. I really dont get how the fonts are so bad. They look great to me, just the same as Windows. Again sure its not your video card/driver?


I hate using Windows for ethical reasons, but I just can't make the switch completely until Linux cleans up its fonts, and info becomes readily available and easy-to-find. People just don't have time to scour forums and the internet for something that should be intuitive and easy to figure out for yourself. I'd love to switch to Linux full-time, but it's simply not feasible for people like me, at this point in time.

I don't use Windows at home or at work. And at work I'm the only Ubuntu machine in a purely Windows environment. (for now) and I work with Microsoft Exchange, sharepoint, MS Office docs etc. It works great for me.

prizrak
August 18th, 2007, 05:13 PM
And the harsh reality is that, yes, you do have to use the command line--which steepens the learning curve even more.
I am using Gutsy right now which is in Alpha 4 stage of release and I don't have to use th CLI to get anything working. I had to install random stuff and copy my info over to it from the old install but it was all in the GUI so I don't see how you HAVE to use CLI.

The reason you don't use CLI on Windows is not because it works well its because there is no CLI. Another thing you might want to take into account is that most serious Windows problems can only be solved with a reinstall. I agree it's not hard to find the info on how to do that ;)

If you want a painless Linux experience what you do is you pick up an OEM PC with Linux on it. You also have to account for what you are doing with your computer, if you are a gamer then neither Mac nor Linux would be able to do what you want and no one in their right mind would accuse Mac of not being ready for the desktop.

aysiu
August 18th, 2007, 05:42 PM
Even if you have to use the command-line, that doesn't steepen the learning curve, since you don't actually have to learn the command-line.

If people give you commands, you right-click them (yes, with your mouse) and copy them and then paste them (yes, with your mouse) into the terminal. No learning involved at all unless you want to.

Frankly, if you don't want to learn anything, don't install an operating system from scratch. I wouldn't have the non-tech savvy people I know install Windows or Ubuntu. I'd always install it for them and just have them use whatever's installed.

tgm4883
August 18th, 2007, 06:07 PM
If people give you commands, you right-click them (yes, with your mouse) and copy them and then paste them (yes, with your mouse) into the terminal. No learning involved at all unless you want to.


While that is technically correct, if I can get you to sudo anything on your computer without you at least googling a little to see what it does then your computer has a huge security risk.

popch
August 18th, 2007, 06:16 PM
While that is technically correct, if I can get you to sudo anything on your computer without you at least googling a little to see what it does then your computer has a huge security risk.

Yes, but the security risk is on this side of the screen, i.e. the user.

And that's invariant w/r of the OS. You can also talk a Windows user into clicking on something which will damage the integrity of his system, such as it is.

Oh, and you can, of course, damage Windows as well with the CLI or with writing into the registry and in countless other ways.

darrenm
August 18th, 2007, 08:00 PM
While that is technically correct, if I can get you to sudo anything on your computer without you at least googling a little to see what it does then your computer has a huge security risk.

Yep and posting it on a forum for lots of other people to see will result in lots of bad things for the person that tried to do that. Thats almost as ludicrous as the BASH sudo alias alleged attack route.

DARKGuy
August 18th, 2007, 08:13 PM
Or you could follow my steps and delete services.exe and render your windows useless xD. I did that trying to follow some guide on a forum removing the VirtuMonde virus, then my laptop broke up and I had to fix it... using my Vista DVD xD.

So yeah, sudo is as dangerous as Windows with an admin account, which is basically the "default".

phenest
August 18th, 2007, 08:17 PM
I just have to say ...


Forget it. I've just found some wet paint that I'd like to watch dry.

XogGyux
August 19th, 2007, 02:42 AM
This is not probably the best place to post this, but i could not find a better one, if you know one, just let me know.

I got Ubuntu for a couple of weeks after getting tired of my factory original Windows Media Center 2005, but before installing Ubuntu I also tried a 64-bit version of the new Windows Vista (Ultimate) which was unbelievable awful and resources consuming despite being almost the same that the old Windows XP (which is almost the same as Windows 98).


I really was very pleased when I first booted Ubuntu and founded that all my hardware was working perfectly well, in fact I didn’t have to install or download any single driver (Printer, Scanner, Webcam, Video Card, DVD-Drives, External Hard drives, TV tuner, etc, all working properly from the first boot). I was pretty amazed since Windows Vista wouldn’t recognize some of the hardware, and even using the windows update feature some devices wouldn’t work until I’ve downloaded the drivers from the manufacturer.


The reality is that from the very first boot, in Ubuntu you are actually ready to do some work, you get Internet Browser, Multimedia Player, Image Editor, and Instant Message Programs; as a matter of fact you get almost any program you might need. However I wasn’t very pleased with the way programs get installed in the system. There several ways in which you might need to install programs, Synaptic Package, DEB packages, RPM packages, tag.gz files, source code files, etc. This is very confusing; just imagine my old 73 years old grandfather trying to get a mail application installed. Certainly it is really frustrating, especially for people that are migrating (or trying) from another operating system such as Windows or Mac OS X. Also once the application is installed you are clueless where it actually is. Most of the applications automatically creates a “shortcut” in the system menu, but some does not, and you might get crazy finding it in /usr/bin or any other directory, even if the application does creates the shortcut in the system menu sometimes you need the actually path to the application (for example to make the application run when the system boots up)
Other thing that I actually found a bit silly is that there are literary thousands of programs to do the same thing, they all even look the same, does the same and have the same options, the only evident difference is that they are called different and they were programmed by different people. Ok but what is the downside of that? Well… despite the existence of thousands of programs none of them actually feel as good as the equivalent program in Windows or Mac OS. For example, K3d (burning software) which is great actually, and have literary thousands of options, and I actually didn’t find anything that I couldn’t actually do with it, doesn’t feel like for example Nero. Well it is true that Nero literary sucks your computer resources and ram, also it is not a free program but still it is very well finished, and most of the times it comes a light version “free” with the software bundle of the pc, or the DVD-Drive (if you bought it separately.)

Linux file system is a mess, from a clean installation you get about 25 directories or folders (boot, dev, mnt, root, home, etc) which is actually confusing and lacks organization) most of those directories are system related, and actually users cannot modify/edit/create within them (unless from the terminal using the root user.) Why not better concentrate all those system files in one huge folder called System or something similar?


Although Ubuntu is ready for most task out of the box, some really simple functions might get incredible complicated and tedious. For example, I tried to reproduce a VCD disc in my pc that despite me doing almost anything to get it to work it wouldn’t, the VCD was perfect (in fact I can reproduce it in my regular DVD player ,) I tried Totem Movie Player, I tried VCL, I tried gxine, and some other, I installed cdfs (I read in some forums that Linux couldn’t read from the file system or something similar) still nothing, I mean I know it must be a solution to that just that it might be truly hard to find or even to do. I found some other “minor” (depending of the point of view) problems in Ubuntu, and it is that I couldn’t actually reproduce flash applications (like those web browser media reproducers from youtube) the web browser simply would crash without warning. I tried again lots of possible “solutions” I modified some system files (supposedly the problem was with the resolution and or the video card driver, other times were because of the Sound ALSA drivers,) I also tried different web browsers, I tried reinstalling the flash-nonfree, I even by my own tried to get the gnash (GNU flash player) to work, but nothing (I also tried several other “solutions”.) I end up getting a pluging to block flash animations and a tool that allows downloading the video and actually reproduce it with VLC or another media player. Still that is not a solution and might be tedious. It is like if your clock-alarm runs out of battery and the “solution” to wake up early is not sleep.

Linux overall is a very stable and light operating system, still it crashes sometimes and it consumes a good 350mb of ram out of the box (fresh installation, first boot up) which is not really awesome since windows also fresh installation is about 450mb and it is famous for being a “fat and resource consuming OS.” Linux also boots up incredible fast when it is fresh and without any other program running at startup but once you add a couple of programs to the “startup list” (a lightweight email checker, IM program, and beryl for example) it will slow down comparable to windows (not as slow but still comparable.)

There is not actually any professional program (that I know off) for Linux, there is not Photoshop, nor Premier, no 3Dmax, no AutoCAD. Certainly it might be a “light-weight” GNU or free application for Linux or maybe an emulator (like wine or cross over to run the windows/Mac application on linux) still that won’t win any user that will use the computer for any sort of professional work.

Again, another downside for linux is that there are no games (at least wide variety of popular tittles) and in today’s world one of the most common tasks a pc will be facing is to actually run games.

Probably you might again port some of the games using some kind of emulation method, but again, that’s not a solution, that’s more like a walk around of the problem.


Other thing I really don’t see the point, is that the Linux user MUST have practice and knowledge about the terminal; otherwise he/she won’t “survive”.


So, what does Linux actually works for? Well I do think Linux is a great OS, just it is not YET ready for the desktop. It might do great as server pc. Or maybe it might just do well in a very old pc used only for incredible low demanding task like checking the email or writing up a report with OpenOffice. But once the work begins to get a bit more complicated Linux begins to be less user friendly.

Other thing that I notice is that Linux forums (and WebPages) actually look awful (with some exeptions, like Ubuntu website and Ubuntu Forums, and some other.) In most cases linux forums are just a white background with ugly looking (also uncomfortable to read) typewriter-like font (Like this one.)


What could help Linux to get rid of all those problems? Well at first all those people around the world that are actually all designing different programs that at the end all does the same and looks the same, instead, get together (it doesn’t have to be in life, a video conference might be just fine, even chatting with an IM program) and develop one single application but really powerful, user friendly, and polish it really good, bug it out, etc.) For sure one Multimedia Player powerful, user friendly, versatile, and off course well finished will do a lot better than thousands of small and rustic programs. Now that Dell is offering Linux-Based system, is a good opportunity to increase the OS popularity, so it is crucial that the OS becomes more user-friendly.

aysiu
August 19th, 2007, 02:55 AM
This is not probably the best place to post this, but i could not find a better one, if you know one, just let me know. I've moved it to the appropriate place.

dasunst3r
August 19th, 2007, 02:58 AM
XogGuyx: I noticed a few concerns, and I would like to take some time to address them:

Package management: I think installing programs on Linux is much easier than Windows. It's definitely a point-and-click install, and the entry for the program shows up in the applications menu. There is no "Next" button to click, you can install several programs in one go, and you don't need to hunt down updates whenever you see one.

File structure: This takes some time to get used to. Here's a quick reference for you (from my own perspective)

/home = User preferences and documents. Need to reformat? Back this folder up and you're set to go.
/etc = Global configuration
/boot = Files needed to boot. Contains the bootloader and the kernel
/mnt = Old location to mount hard drives. It is now used for drives that are always going to be in the computer
/media = Removable media
/dev = Devices in the computer


The main barrier to adoption as far as you're concerned is the lack of the programs that you're used to in Windows. Vendors don't see the value of developing their software and drivers for Linux just yet (I'd like to see that changed). One of the things I see Linux as is a learning experience. I hated the terminal when I first started using Linux, but now people say I'm "talking to the computer" whenever they see that screen up. Thanks for at least trying it. If you would like to try again, I would like to arm you with www.ubuntuguide.org to help you get a better experience.

chewearn
August 19th, 2007, 03:05 AM
I was wondering what you will like to achieve from this post? It is likely that you have spent half an hour of your time (or maybe even more than an hour) composing this long commentary.

I see some valid points you have made, but more invalid points, and some of your points are a bit naive. It would be too long to debate point-by-point, unless you are clear on the reason for the debate, which bring us back to my first question; what you will like to achieve from this post?

Cheers! :)

arsenic23
August 19th, 2007, 03:07 AM
posted in wrong thread.

Frak
August 19th, 2007, 03:17 AM
@XogGuyx, I agree with you on everything (exept PM and File structure, those are nearly perfect)

But, the point about all the developers coming together to make just one grand program would be quite hard, as nobody pays them to do their jobs. Thus just saying "get your act together and make a better program" would probably just get you the finger.

IMHO, this thread is silly. Linux really won't be Desktop ready until MS and Apple are gone, or else Ubuntu goes commercial and uses the money to rapidly develop, which in essence, is what where doing now. (Without the commercial stuff)

XogGyux
August 19th, 2007, 03:19 AM
Certainly DEB packages and Synaptic package installations are easy (and also easier than window's and mac's) but still there are other several, like the source code in which you have to go to terminal and run "make" and "make install" still i don't see the point of showing up directories like "boot", "etc" "root" etc that users can not even modify their contents, neither they know, even if you need to modify any content within them for sure you have the knowledge to find them in a different and less obvious (hidden) place, a less crowded "/" directory is better. My opinion is that the files system would be a lot more simpler by allocating all those directories in three groups: Applications (all installed applications in the computer) Home (User documents, configurations files etc) and System (boot, root, etc, all directories / files that regular users does not need to see.)
Don't get me wrong, the reason for which I'm posting this is because i do believe Linux has potential yet we have to help to unlock it, and it is a fact that Linux isent ready for desktop (and prove of this is that there are very few users that uses it in personals computer) what im trying to spot out some of the reasons of why linux is actually not ready yet, so the entire community can help fix it.

Frak
August 19th, 2007, 03:26 AM
For the filesystem thing, its locked for security reasons. If its locked, nobody from the outside or inside can screw up your system without the root password.

And for the source packages, ask us! There are some of us, such as myself, that know how to compile and package .deb files, and we're willing to do it for the community.

Epilonsama
August 19th, 2007, 03:26 AM
Wow this thread just goes on, and on ,and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on...

XogGyux
August 19th, 2007, 03:56 AM
For the filesystem thing, its locked for security reasons. If its locked, nobody from the outside or inside can screw up your system without the root password.

And for the source packages, ask us! There are some of us, such as myself, that know how to compile and package .deb files, and we're willing to do it for the community.

Ok thats actually the problem, What it is the problem of locking up something? isent just better to hide it up? i mean, if it is hidden (perhaps withing another file called system or something) it is not only out of reach for casual users but also keeps the file system nice and clean which is actually comfortable.

Again.. a desktop system should be easy to use without giving away flexibility, it is great to have these forums in which you can find solutions, but still you shoundt need to ask for help to install a program (unless is a super complicated and sofisticated program), if you are installed firefox and you dont know where it is installed or how to run it thats an inconvenient. Really, lets say i use my computer to watch tv (media center), watch videos, dvd etc, to lisent to music and transfer it to my mp3 player, to browse the web, to write reports, and to chat (probably these are the most common activities an average user does) what do i need as an average user? well a multimedia player (good one, with tons of codecs) a media center program, firefox, openoffice, gaim or something similar. I really wont ever go to root, or etc, or boot for anything, the only thing they are doing in "/" is scaring me out, making me unconfortable with their presence. Is like if you go to a restaurant, and the waitress serves your meal and gives you 42 different forks, 12 knives of different styles and 45 spoons, and you dont know what to do with them.

This kind of attitude is what keeps linux behind, IT IS JUST PERFECT, if so why there is a forum for development? or why there are so few users. wake up, uhmmm it is not perfect! but we can help to fix that.

aysiu
August 19th, 2007, 04:04 AM
This kind of attitude is what keeps linux behind, IT IS JUST PERFECT, if so why there is a forum for development? or why there are so few users. wake up, uhmmm it is not perfect! but we can help to fix that. Who said Linux is perfect? Take a look at the Gutsy idea pool subforum (http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=253) on these forums, and you'll see most Linux users (in this case, Ubuntu users) have a lot of ideas for how to improve Ubuntu. You need to wake up and see that improvement already happens. It constantly happens every six months. If you don't believe me, try a Ubuntu CD from August 2004 (5.04 - Hoary Hedgehog) (http://old-releases.ubuntu.com/releases/5.04/) and compare it to today's Ubuntu CD (August 2007 (7.04 - Feisty Fawn).

What's better than whining on the forums? Making a difference. (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=78741)

Frak
August 19th, 2007, 04:07 AM
I NEVER said Linux is perfect, I mean, right at this moment, I'm using Vista. Why? Because there are things that I can't do in Linux. I don't gripe at the community. Why? It's not their fault. I don't gripe at the developers. Why? It's not their fault either.

Also, to hiding files in Linux requires placing a . in front of the directory, but in theoretical Linux FS standards, a ./ directory cannot exist as that is an execution.
ATM, it is not the focus of the developers to hide the filesystem.
Simple answer to the root directory, don't go in there in the first place.

Also, why did you have to go to /usr/bin to retrieve your files? They are all accessible from the command line. Also if they are command line based, then average users have no use for them.
Lets say you want MD5 (average users have no use for this program, yet other programs may want to use this for file calculation, to make sure all the data is there)
Appearantly you went to /usr/bin to look for it.
Yet an easier way would have been to run

md5 <file>
from the command line.

There are just some things that don't need GUI's, such as MD5. It is so incredibly easy to use via the CLI that why make a GUI in the first place?
There is absolutely NO reason for anyone to view the "/" directory unless you are a developer.

XogGyux
August 19th, 2007, 04:17 AM
I NEVER said Linux is perfect, I mean, right at this moment, I'm using Vista. Why? Because there are things that I can't do in Linux. I don't gripe at the community. Why? It's not their fault. I don't gripe at the developers. Why? It's not their fault either.

Also, to hiding files in Linux requires placing a . in front of the directory, but in theoretical Linux FS standards, a ./ directory cannot exist as that is an execution.
ATM, it is not the focus of the developers to hide the filesystem.
Simple answer to the root directory, don't go in there in the first place.

Also, why did you have to go to /usr/bin to retrieve your files? They are all accessible from the command line. Also if they are command line based, then average users have no use for them.
Lets say you want MD5 (average users have no use for this program, yet other programs may want to use this for file calculation, to make sure all the data is there)
Appearantly you went to /usr/bin to look for it.
Yet an easier way would have been to run

md5 <file>
from the command line.

There are just some things that don't need GUI's, such as MD5. It is so incredibly easy to use via the CLI that why make a GUI in the first place?
There is absolutely NO reason for anyone to view the "/" directory unless you are a developer.

:( uhm what is all that about? where is the beautiful simplicity of a desktop system in all that you wrote? thats cool for a server, in which it is very handy to have all system files and the terminal so you can access/modify/check files quick, i think you dont grasp this yet. this is not whether or not Linux is a great OS, it is evident it is, otherwise it wouldnt last not 1 month, this is about linux for desktop. At this moment linux is an F1 racing "car" fast, robust, etc. but desktop actually means that linux must transform into a city car, simple, easy to use, automatic (not manual) user friendly. I dont know what it is your idea about userfriendly but if i would have to give an example i would never use the console as an example of user friendly. Icon=User friendly, commands=robust, util but not user friendly.

raja
August 19th, 2007, 04:46 AM
:( uhm what is all that about? where is the beautiful simplicity of a desktop system in all that you wrote? I dont know what it is your idea about userfriendly but if i would have to give an example i would never use the console as an example of user friendly. Icon=User friendly, commands=robust, util but not user friendly.

If you cant see the beauty and simplicity of checking md5sums in the command line compared to downloading some shareware and opening up a gui to do the same thing in windows, maybe this is not for you. With time you may find Linus usable and equivalent to windows, but you will never appreciate its power.

XogGyux
August 19th, 2007, 04:49 AM
where is the point of checking md5 for a desktop user? how many people actually needs it in their home pc?

Frak
August 19th, 2007, 04:52 AM
where is the point of checking md5 for a desktop user? how many people actually needs it in their home pc?
Exactly, why do they need it? That's why its not in the menu's, because its a file used by intermediate/advanced users or other programs.

EDIT
If you want to know what its used for, the package manager uses it to make sure the entire program has been downloaded, it can thus compare a .md5 file to what it comes up with. It can then come up with a conclusion on whether it should attempt to redownload it.

XogGyux
August 19th, 2007, 04:55 AM
Exactly, why do they need it? That's why its not in the menu's, because its a file used by intermediate/advanced users or other programs.

exacly, thats why i dont see the point of mention it here :confused: thats an useful tool no doubts but chances are 99.99% of people wont need to run a md5 check in their home pcs ever.

Frak
August 19th, 2007, 05:06 AM
exacly, thats why i dont see the point of mention it here :confused: thats an useful tool no doubts but chances are 99.99% of people wont need to run a md5 check in their home pcs ever.
APT does, and countless other programs need MD5.

XogGyux
August 19th, 2007, 05:10 AM
o well... here we go again. let me put in this way. a desktop OS is that in which you get a great md5 check application (command) and you cannot play a VCD out of the box. :confused:
Still you dont grasp the idea quite yet.

XogGyux
August 19th, 2007, 05:14 AM
Regarding the filesystem structure. I just thought of a great example. think on the keyboard layout. in a regular keyboar you dont have any key with the characters ╗,▓, or Ñ still if for some reason you need them (if you need them supposedly you know they exist and how to write them) you can write them with Alt+187 Alt-178 and Alt-165, there is no need to overwhelm people that does not need them (which is actually the majority) and include them in the keyboard's keys, more over i dont quite think is a good idea to have keyboards with 1000+ keys!

Frak
August 19th, 2007, 05:16 AM
o well... here we go again. let me put in this way. a desktop OS is that in which you get a great md5 check application (command) and you cannot play a VCD out of the box. :confused:
Still you dont grasp the idea quite yet.
No, you don't get it, that comes from your impatience.
http://www.getautomatix.com
That will solve your problem.
I'm saying that your going around stating that there are programs that are in /usr/bin/ that are not in the menu's, and you don't see why.

Well I just explained it to you.

Frak
August 19th, 2007, 05:17 AM
Regarding the filesystem structure. I just thought of a great example. think on the keyboard layout. in a regular keyboar you dont have any key with the characters ╗,▓, or Ñ still if for some reason you need them (if you need them supposedly you know they exist and how to write them) you can write them with Alt+187 Alt-178 and Alt-165, there is no need to overwhelm people that does not need them (which is actually the majority) and include them in the keyboard's keys, more over i dont quite think is a good idea to have keyboards with 1000+ keys!
You've never been in the Windows folder have you?

Poor shame :(

XogGyux
August 19th, 2007, 05:30 AM
well. when i had the VCD problem "automatix" didnt do anything to get me out of trouble. it didnt help either when someone suggested it to fix the flash issue i addressed earlier, either way VCD are rather primitive and an today's OS that cannot reproduce VCD out of the box isent looking pretty good. Its like if you buy a brand new car and after you drive it for a couple of weeks you go to the dealer and say to him that the car is quite unconfortable and he says to you that is because you actually need seats so you have to buy seats to your car! (now the question is, isent a car suppose to have seats from factory?)

Windows folder is a mess, but actually i dont have anything to do with that folder as a home pc user. I simple can ignore i. Now, i have some experience already and have need to go to windows folder to do some task however most of home users have ever even open that folder in their life. and thats actually the point. the files and folders within windows folder are System files, which might be dangerous to mess up with. But again all those files are contained within a single folder which is the barrier between the user and the administrator (or advance user.) It is the same with windows registry (i know that it sucks and to begin with it should never have existed, but it does) which is basically hidden, but when someone actually needs to do something within it, only have to write regedit in run and thats it.

Frak
August 19th, 2007, 05:34 AM
Are you using 32-bit or 64-bit.

XogGyux
August 19th, 2007, 05:42 AM
i've used all! :) at the moment im running back my original windows media center because im back to school and i really dont want to spend so much time trying to fix "small issues" but actually i have tried Windows Vista 64-bit, Windows Vista 32-bit, Ubuntu AMD64 (my processor is X2 4200) and Ubuntu x86 (this one was the one i used most of the time, i have to switch from 64bit to 32 because the audio would not work with the 64bit version propertly, after more than 10 threads in forums and 10+ different possible solutions, i discovered that the problem was caused by my USB Logitech Mic, that for some weird reason interferes with the audio Input/Output configuration (it has the same problem with the 32bit as i later tested it) but anyways im not even interested in knowing what caused the problem since i rather take off the mic and save 1 usb port.)

AcworthJack
August 20th, 2007, 01:18 PM
While agree with many of the "readiness" topics - I suggest there has been a bit too much effort to "dumb" down Ubuntu in some areas and not enough automation in others. While it should be easy for new users - lets keep all the things that make Unix great!

My suggestions:
1) include ftpd - and add a GUI for configuration
2) in Ubuntu Studio - group "Sound and Video" apps by use:

MP3 playback
AVI playback
MP3 recorder
AVI recorder
MIDI stuff
etc.

There are a LOT of apps - and very little explanation what each one does. (Same with graphics tools...)
3) include ntfs access with defualt Ubuntu install
4) include a good HTML WYSIWUG editor

Thanks,
John

XogGyux
August 20th, 2007, 05:22 PM
While agree with many of the "readiness" topics - I suggest there has been a bit too much effort to "dumb" down Ubuntu in some areas and not enough automation in others. While it should be easy for new users - lets keep all the things that make Unix great!

My suggestions:
1) include ftpd - and add a GUI for configuration
2) in Ubuntu Studio - group "Sound and Video" apps by use:

MP3 playback
AVI playback
MP3 recorder
AVI recorder
MIDI stuff
etc.

There are a LOT of apps - and very little explanation what each one does. (Same with graphics tools...)
3) include ntfs access with defualt Ubuntu install
4) include a good HTML WYSIWUG editor

Thanks,
John

Well John, regarding ntfs support, i dont think we gonna have that, and it is all thanks to our little friend microsoft, which blocked that filesystem. Not even mac can actually write to ntfs partitions by default. Anyways you are better off by changing your hdds to FAT32 (what i did when i had linux and windows at the same, was to split my 74gb raptor in two partitions [well actually three because i needed one for linux's spawn] and those partitions would be only for system. all documents where saved in the rest which where fat32 which is compatible with linx/win/mac, you could even program linux to make your home directory in the fat32 partition, aswell as change windows "My Documents" to there so the fat32 is the default documents partition.

Your idea about ftp is good, however again... that will benefit poorly or none to the pc home user. Still i think that in general linux should step a little bit further from console and focus more in GUI (just because is more user friendly it worth it.)

I think there are three big differents areas for computer, those areas are "Proffesional Usage" (people that uses the computer to do proffesional works like image editing [photoshop, corel, etc], audio/video editing [Adobe Audition/Adobe premier/SoundForge] 3D Animation [3d Max, Maya, etc] Design [AutoCAD] and for office stuff [reports, database, etc] for all of those things for the only one that linux is really ready is for office stuff, because there are no appplications that are powerful enough [like phtoshop, autocad, etc] compatible with linux.
The other big area is for desktop usage in a home computer, now this forums is about that, and evidently is not ready yet, althou linux is powerful is also very rough and alienates new users because still is rather more complicated that its competitors MacOs X, and Windows.
The other third area is for server, i am not familiar in that area but i have read that linux is probably the best OS for servers, assuming thats true, still companies wouldnt consider linux because if something goes wrong with the system they dont have no one to blame for the failure since linux is free etc.

What could improve linux for desktop?
Here are some ideas:
Concentrate all the power for all the differents applications in few of them, when i had linux in my system i had to install Kopete, Gaim, Pinguin, and aMSN at the same, because some features one of them has, the other lacks, for example, aMSN has webcam support, but no audio support. i dont know the rest of you, but a webcam is nothing without the audio at least for me. Instead of having 4 (or more) programs, concentrate all the power of them in one and make it defualt with the linux installation, (the main feature it must have are: must be compatible with Yahoo, MSN, and AIM at least (including video conference with the three of them, as well as audio) MUST have a really good looking interface without being extremely eye catching, something nice and clean.
Also it must exist 1 single multimedia player, (multimedia, that means it must reproduce audio/video etc) it must have preinstalled all codecs or at least when you try to reproduce something you dont have the codec it will give you the option to download. Again it must have a nice look, again, the actual linux's movie player totem cannot be compared with apple's quicktime nor with windows media player, again it might be powerful but it looks awful.
Other thing i think it should be preinstalled is a program for media center pc (like myth tv) but more simple (since myth tv is hard to configure) some program that allows you to see the tv (from your tv tuner) integrates with the chanel guide, and allows you to schedule recordings, nothing more,
Create a default apparance that all programs would mimic (offcourse they could be changed with skin on all those which have the option) since it is a bit hard to have several windows open with hundreds of contrasting colors, that miss-concentrates.
I still maintain that installation of applications should be more simple, something like copy the application and paste it into the application's directory, ok you can say, thats stupid because you will have "shared" files/libraries repited hundreds of times. so what? i installed linux in a 30gb partition, i had 4 700mb movies and 2 700mb cd images in my desktop and still the 30gb hdd wasnt even half its capacity, still i had an empty 111gb hdd and 250gb hdd both empty. What would i do with all that space? i really dont mind to have lost lets see... 4-5gb in duplicate files? after all most computers comes today with 250gb+ capacity unless you have 100+ DVD quality movies you wont fill it, and home users mostly have in their computers pictures/some music/emails/word documents/perhaps a couple of movies and thats it. the benefits of this are: it is the easiest way to install anything, you would know exactly where the application is located as well as its files, it is also super easy to unistall it (delete it). How would it work? well you download the application file (for instance) lets say... you download firefox, and it is a 1 file which has the icon of firefox, if you double click it firefox will open (thats the defualt function the application has) however if you right-click the icon it will appear the 'context' menu and will offer you several options like for example, open an window with the application's libraries and conf files (this might be useful for more advance users which might need to access to one of those files to change something/fix something etc) another option in the menu might be to add a shortcut either to the Linux App menu, Desktop or quick access, aswell as one option to make it run on startup.
Talking about contextual menu, i really think that the contextual menu should be more contextual. let me explain myself. for example you right-click on OpenOffice.org Writer and you will have these options (and maybe more) Open (open the program with the default window, it just the same that double click it) Open wizard (open some wizard that will help you create the template you need, Open Document (here comes a sub-menu that list you the last 3-5 acceses documents in historial), as well as other several options.

A home OS should increase focus on Drag n' Drop capability, for instance yo where taking notes in the notepad but then you decided than that will become the first 4 pages of your new book, you simply drag the note file into OpenOffice Writer and it opens with whatever text was in the Note file, at this point you might ask,,, well what it is the point of this since you could just copy and paste, well this is just an example! Another example could be. you have a text file with 5-10 web addresses that a friend send you thru msn so you could check them. you drag the note file to firefox and you get 10 tabs with the website. Another example, is that you have a note file with some lines of commands, you simply drag it into the terminal or terminal's icon and it will run all the lines one by one, (offcourse this must be a bit intelligent, for instance if at some point there where a sudo blah blah blah and it ask you for the password, and you enter it, it must offer you three options, first option : continue, another option start again all the commands, and the last: cancel all. also if you dont mind that anyone could get your password from your command notes you could include a line like password:123456 and the terminal should be smart enough to recognize it and then do it all automatically, also if some actions requires some time, the terminal should be smart enough to wait. this could be greatly used for automation purpose.

Also (i think i already said it before) the apparance is very important for instance (if money would not be a problem) what would you rather have? a Toyota or a Mercedes? probably the Toyota is more reliable and overall more durable car, but lets face it. you get the Mercedes/ why? it looks better :)

Cheers!

fyllekajan
August 20th, 2007, 05:57 PM
That is a lot of text.

KIAaze
August 20th, 2007, 06:05 PM
I still maintain that installation of applications should be more simple, something like copy the application and paste it into the application's directory, ok you can say, thats stupid because you will have "shared" files/libraries repited hundreds of times. so what? i installed linux in a 30gb partition, i had 4 700mb movies and 2 700mb cd images in my desktop and still the 30gb hdd wasnt even half its capacity, still i had an empty 111gb hdd and 250gb hdd both empty. What would i do with all that space? i really dont mind to have lost lets see... 4-5gb in duplicate files?

I don't agree on this. I do mind when I loose 4-5 GB in duplicate files.
I am using a 40GB HD and am already short on disk space.

Ok, I have XP+Debian+Ubuntu. But I prefer having that instead of lots of duplicate libraries!

It is already possible to install programs with libraries included in the same folder in the home directory. And some programs come like this.
But I wouldn't want it to be the default way of installing programs!

Installing a .deb is now as easy as installing a .exe I think.
The Loki installer for games is also quite good.


Also (i think i already said it before) the apparance is very important for instance (if money would not be a problem) what would you rather have? a Toyota or a Mercedes? probably the Toyota is more reliable and overall more durable car, but lets face it. you get the Mercedes/ why? it looks better

That, I agree with. The default Ubuntu theme doesn't really look good.
The Ubuntu Studio theme for example is much better.

I also agree with putting the best of all the different applications into one.
For sound and video playback, my preffered ones are currently amaroK (obviously ^^) and Kaffeine.
They look good and have lots of practical functionalities.

Same for drag&drop: I miss the drag&drop to reorganize menus from Windows for example. :/

A little bit older, but...

Ok thats actually the problem, What it is the problem of locking up something? isent just better to hide it up? i mean, if it is hidden (perhaps withing another file called system or something) it is not only out of reach for casual users but also keeps the file system nice and clean which is actually comfortable.


Hiding is not good! I hate it when Windows hides files from me.
Don't let me modify them, ok. But hiding files that take up space? NO!
Hiding from me how my system works? I might as well have stayed in Windows!

And it's very educational to see how the system actually works.
Being able to look into system files can sometimes be essential to solving problems!

edit:
What I would agree on however, and which would probably be very good, would be to setup sudo permissions in a way that the user can install programs without any problems, mount devices, etc, but can't do too dangerous things like rm -rf / or moving around libraries.
This would however require setting up a separate root password...


Certainly DEB packages and Synaptic package installations are easy (and also easier than window's and mac's) but still there are other several, like the source code in which you have to go to terminal and run "make" and "make install"

Installing from source is always a complex matter, even on Windows.
In fact, it's even harder on Windows since they don't have any standard building system like "./configure; make; make install;".

Of course, there are problems when trying to compile from source sometimes. But usually, it's just some missing dependencies which you can solve by typing apt-get build-dep <program> if it's a program from the repositories. Otherwise, it's not too hard to figure out what to install.
Installing from source is not meant for normal users anyway. When a developer feels his program is ready for distribution to users, he should make a .deb/.rpm or other.

It's the same in Windows, where developers have to create an installer for their program.

AcworthJack
August 20th, 2007, 06:21 PM
Good thoughts all -

One issue with Ubuntu Studio - I just installed it (via Wabi) and had a problem with it not recognzing all the display modes of my monitor. To fix this I had to manually edit
/etc/X11/xorg.conf and add options to Modes "1280x1024" "1024x768".
(For details see: http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=129379&postcount=21)

This was not a problem for me - but this would be a HUGE issue to a non-technical user.

I like the idea of defining certain types of users and building Ubuntu to work for the non-technical while still enabling access to the "nuts and bolts" for experts.

take care,
John

XogGyux
August 20th, 2007, 06:51 PM
I don't agree on this. I do mind when I loose 4-5 GB in duplicate files.
I am using a 40GB HD and am already short on disk space.

Ok, I have XP+Debian+Ubuntu. But I prefer having that instead of lots of duplicate libraries!

It is already possible to install programs with libraries included in the same folder in the home directory. And some programs come like this.
But I wouldn't want it to be the default way of installing programs!

Installing a .deb is now as easy as installing a .exe I think.
The Loki installer for games is also quite good.



That, I agree with. The default Ubuntu theme doesn't really look good.
The Ubuntu Studio theme for example is much better.

I also agree with putting the best of all the different applications into one.
For sound and video playback, my preffered ones are currently amaroK (obviously ^^) and Kaffeine.
They look good and have lots of practical functionalities.

Same for drag&drop: I miss the drag&drop to reorganize menus from Windows for example. :/

A little bit older, but...


Hiding is not good! I hate it when Windows hides files from me.
Don't let me modify them, ok. But hiding files that take up space? NO!
Hiding from me how my system works? I might as well have stayed in Windows!

And it's very educational to see how the system actually works.
Being able to look into system files can sometimes be essential to solving problems!

edit:
What I would agree on however, and which would probably be very good, would be to setup sudo permissions in a way that the user can install programs without any problems, mount devices, etc, but can't do too dangerous things like rm -rf / or moving around libraries.
This would however require setting up a separate root password...

You are short of space precisely because you have redundant files (same as what i suggested but instead of libraries you got operating systems <_>) and why is that? simply because linux are not ready yet. DEB package are easy no doubts, but again it is not the only! there are also rpm packages, and source code, and synaptic package and tar.gz, and .gz, and more, and not all applications gives the option to have a DEB package. again althou DEB packages are easy they will put the application whetever it wants. IN my idea thou you might have the same library repeated a couple of times (thou i think i exagerated a bit with 4-5gigs, probably are not even 1g anyways..) what benefit you get? for sure is a lot easy to install that even deb package, why? because you dont have to install it. you download an app, and it is already installed to the directory you downloaded it (in fact in the future firefox could have an option to detect what kind of file you are downloading and to download it to a preselected folder like Applications. the most important of this system is that you will know where applications are. Anyways, is your 40g your only hdd? if so... do you think you would still have only that 6month/1year from now when some of these ideas actually gets to a version of linux? anyways you are not thinking in terms of the AVERAGE HOME PC USER. you got experience, you feel confortable with the mess of folders that are in "/" you can benefit from have it all in the root directory, but the average user will find it really overwhelming, anyways, would it matter to you if all those directories that are in "/" that belongs to the system would be inside another directory called System for instance? i bet not, it is just an step more you have to do (open the directory system) thou you will have your system a lot more organized. check the attached image.
http://img74.imageshack.us/img74/7192/untitledjq3.th.jpg (http://img74.imageshack.us/my.php?image=untitledjq3.jpg)

Thats the main problem linux has, Linux is used only by advanced users, you wont ever find a linux user that does not know what "jpeg" or "txt" or "menu" or "boot" means, and thats why linux user does not mind to have "boot" "etc" "root" "mnt" "user" and all the rest of the directories in "/", thats why linux users doesnt mind to have .deb, rpm, tar.gz, packages, because they can deal with it, but if linux would ever come to home pcs it must change.

aysiu
August 20th, 2007, 06:56 PM
Thats the main problem linux has, Linux is used only by advanced users, you wont ever find a linux user that does not know what "jpeg" or "txt" or "menu" or "boot" means Can you provide some evidence for this? As far as I know, a lot of people set up "computer illiterate" family members on Linux, and those family members do just fine.

XogGyux
August 20th, 2007, 07:01 PM
Can you provide some evidence for this? As far as I know, a lot of people set up "computer illiterate" family members on Linux, and those family members do just fine.

thats the point! linux's "computer illiterate" are window's advanced users. Just show me 1 person, only 1 that does not know what a jpeg file is or one that doesnt know what program use to open a .doc file and i will show you 100 that doesnt know it in windows.

aysiu
August 20th, 2007, 07:13 PM
thats the point! linux's "computer illiterate" are window's advanced users. Just show me 1 person, only 1 that does not know what a jpeg file is or one that doesnt know what program use to open a .doc file and i will show you 100 that doesnt know it in windows.
That fake statistic means nothing. Show me 1 person who uses Linux at all, and I'll show you 100 who use Windows.

fyllekajan
August 20th, 2007, 07:19 PM
thats the point! linux's "computer illiterate" are window's advanced users. Just show me 1 person, only 1 that does not know what a jpeg file is or one that doesnt know what program use to open a .doc file and i will show you 100 that doesnt know it in windows.

Yes but these users struggle with Windows also they would probably be better off with Ubuntu if it's pre-installed like their windows.

XogGyux
August 20th, 2007, 07:21 PM
That fake statistic means nothing. Show me 1 person who uses Linux at all, and I'll show you 100 who use Windows.

Perhaps more ppl uses windows than linux because is easier? easier to install apps to? because you dont have 50folders in the root directory that you will ever open? perhaps because instead of having .deb, rpm, tar.gz, source code, synaptic package, windows only have .exe (or .msi that actually behaces as .exe)?

aysiu
August 20th, 2007, 07:25 PM
Perhaps more ppl uses windows than linux because is easier? Doubtful. Almost everyone I know who uses Windows has never heard of Linux, and Windows just came preinstalled on whatever computer they bought. I don't many people who have tried Linux and then decided to stick with Windows because it's "easier."

XogGyux
August 20th, 2007, 07:27 PM
let me change my approach. ok well tell me what you think are the big problems of linux!

fyllekajan
August 20th, 2007, 07:29 PM
Perhaps more ppl uses windows than linux because is easier? easier to install apps to? because you dont have 50folders in the root directory that you will ever open? perhaps because instead of having .deb, rpm, tar.gz, source code, synaptic package, windows only have .exe (or .msi that actually behaces as .exe)?

It IS easier to get ALL kinds of hardware (for desktop users) working in windows. It's definitely not easier to install apps in windows UNLESS that's the only thing you've been doing for the last 20 years! - indeed windows power users tend to dive into the root file structure download drivers from here and there and run whaever dirty little script they can get their hands on messing up their boxes in the process. If you cannot grasp the concept and the advantages of package managers coming from windows then there's nothing we can do for you. There's a learning curve to everything new.

aysiu
August 20th, 2007, 07:29 PM
let me change my approach. ok well tell me what you think are the big problems of linux!
I could go on for hours about the big problems.

I'd start with these five, though:
http://ubuntucat.wordpress.com/2007/07/12/the-top-5-gnomeubuntu-usability-bugs-id-love-to-see-fixed/

You may also want to take a peak at some of the threads I started in the Gutsy Idea Pool subforum:
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=409817
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=411481
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=409925
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=409822
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=409952
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=421772
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=411871
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=409835
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=420368
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=409973
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=409966
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=409963

popch
August 20th, 2007, 07:31 PM
let me change my approach. ok well tell me what you think are the big problems of linux!

What makes you think Linux has a problem?

If there is a problem it is with people who use software that's too expensive, too vulnerable and restricting.

XogGyux
August 20th, 2007, 07:38 PM
Doubtful. Almost everyone I know who uses Windows has never heard of Linux, and Windows just came preinstalled on whatever computer they bought. I don't many people who have tried Linux and then decided to stick with Windows because it's "easier."

well so you are saying that linux is actually as easy to use as windows if not more easy right?
since until now i couldnt make you think as an experienceless user i'll give you a hint of how easy it is.
In a fresh-installation windows pc you can put the vcd in the cd drive and hit play when the autorun shows up. you can donwload msn messenger and install it with a couple of clics and you can initiate a videoconferece with audio by opening the chat window and press the icon with the display and the phone. thats it, also you can www.youtube.com, browse a video and hit play (internet explorer or firefox now will show you a pop put saying that you need adobe flash, you say install) and thats it, the video is playing.
Now fresh install linux in one pc, and explain all the steps you needed to do to watch a video in youtube, have a videoconference with an msn/yahoo user (with audio and cam) and watch a vcd

XogGyux
August 20th, 2007, 07:40 PM
What makes you think Linux has a problem?

If there is a problem it is with people who use software that's too expensive, too vulnerable and restricting.

o well. so you are basically saying that linux is a perfect OS right? well if so why there are troubleshooting forums everywhere? why does people uses windows and mac os more than linux? why there are differents versions of linux?:confused:

aysiu
August 20th, 2007, 07:44 PM
On a fresh install of Windows, how do you edit a Word document (Microsoft's native format)? How do you have an internet connection? How do you play a DVD?

The fact that you think a Windows installation is functional leads me to believe you've never done a fresh install of Windows (I'm not talking about restore CDs--I'm talking about vanilla Windows XP).

Deived
August 20th, 2007, 07:49 PM
The key thing for "ready for the desktop" to me is, ease of finding and installing apps, and also availability of different types of apps. I think Linux and Ubuntu have got this covered, but the idea of repositories for finding, installing, and updating apps, is a new concept to a majority of people. People in the windows world are used to finding apps by purchasing in stores, or finding downloads on the web, and installing from there. This should be streamlined a little more in Linux to make installing much easier, until people get the idea of repositories. I mean, how many windows apps require you to go into the command line to complete an install or configure? Don't get me wrong, I love the command line in Linux (it's far more powerful the a DOS shell), but how many people would be comfortable doing that if they needed to?
I hope I made sense... Im at work so I need to be a little quick.

fyllekajan
August 20th, 2007, 07:50 PM
In a fresh-installation windows pc the first thing you would want to download is updates and anti-virus software right? But you have a point - the default installation of Ubuntu probably doesn't have all the things the average user would like out of the box. But if you buy a windows pc in a store you get it installed with tons of software that's not in a default windows install either. Try ekiga for audio/video chat.

popch
August 20th, 2007, 08:03 PM
o well. so you are basically saying that linux is a perfect OS right?

Rubbish. There is no perfect software. Linux is about as perfect as Windows or OS X, give or take a few points.


well if so why there are troubleshooting forums everywhere?

Do you mean to say that you haven't been able to find a forum where Windows user can get help?


why does people uses windows and mac os more than linux? :

Peoples doess use other operating systems for a variety of reasons, practically none of which has anything to do with the quality of the product or with its ease of use. See my previous post which said exactly that.


why there are differents versions of linux?:confused:

There are different 'versions' of Linux because people (users) have different needs and preferences. Why is there more than one kind of car?

XogGyux
August 20th, 2007, 08:05 PM
On a fresh install of Windows, how do you edit a Word document (Microsoft's native format)? How do you have an internet connection? How do you play a DVD?

The fact that you think a Windows installation is functional leads me to believe you've never done a fresh install of Windows (I'm not talking about restore CDs--I'm talking about vanilla Windows XP).

Well u put the dvd it shows you the autorun menu, and you clic reproduce dvd on windows media player. (i rather use windows media center for that since has better integration with my remote control)
More complicated than that could be to reproduce any DivX or any compressed video that requires codec, althou Windows media player supposedly has a function to detect and download the codecs automatically i have never got it to work, but still is rather easy to download k-lite mega codec pack and thats it.
My internet conection is always on, it will detect it automatically when installing it (unless is the first time that the modem will conect to the internet, in that case when i open the internet explorer and try to go to a website it will tell me that i need the password and username that my ISP provided me with (or that i chose when i "bought" my internet conection). I admit is a bit more difficult if i where using a modem to access internet, in that case i would have to go to modem conections that i frankly dont know where are in windows xp, since the last time i had a modem conection i was using windows me but still i would manage to find it.
regarding .doc files, well if you got windows in your pc then you got it in one of these two ways. One: you installed it by yourself consequently you know a bit about computers so you know you need Word (or any other compatible program as OpenOffice, Office Viewer, Corel WordPerfect etc). the other option is that you got your windows preinstalled and 99.99% of preinstalled system comes with a ****** software bundle that i actually find annoying but at least comes with office or microsoft Works which actually works as well. More over if the file is in the standard 97-2003 office format .doc (not the new .xdoc of office 2007) will open with WordPad (which comes default with windows) although has some problems with the format aswell as images.

I do have installed tons of times (as a matter of fact i do it almost weekly) windows, (i have installed all versions from win98 to vista, including the 64-bit versions of vista and xp) i have also installed ubuntu, and redhat several times (ubuntu is really super easy, the easiest in my opinion)

Anyways, if you wanted to point out something that is better in linux than in windows you should have pointed out the drivers matter, in windows it simply sucks!
cheers!

KIAaze
August 20th, 2007, 08:22 PM
anyways you are not thinking in terms of the AVERAGE HOME PC USER. you got experience, you feel confortable with the mess of folders that are in "/" you can benefit from have it all in the root directory, but the average user will find it really overwhelming, anyways, would it matter to you if all those directories that are in "/" that belongs to the system would be inside another directory called System for instance? i bet not, it is just an step more you have to do (open the directory system) thou you will have your system a lot more organized. check the attached image.
http://img74.imageshack.us/img74/7192/untitledjq3.th.jpg (http://img74.imageshack.us/my.php?image=untitledjq3.jpg)

Thats the main problem linux has, Linux is used only by advanced users, you wont ever find a linux user that does not know what "jpeg" or "txt" or "menu" or "boot" means, and thats why linux user does not mind to have "boot" "etc" "root" "mnt" "user" and all the rest of the directories in "/", thats why linux users doesnt mind to have .deb, rpm, tar.gz, packages, because they can deal with it, but if linux would ever come to home pcs it must change.

I'm not against a file system change. It will take time getting used to, but it might be worth it.
Programs currently can indeed be in /bin, /usr/bin or /usr/local/bin for example. (In Windows they can be installed anywhere to by a setup.exe by the way.)

There is already a GNU/Linux distribution trying to implement this if you are interested:
http://www.gobolinux.org/

@Ayisu: I agree with your things to improve in Gnome. :)

XogGyux
August 20th, 2007, 08:24 PM
Rubbish. There is no perfect software. Linux is about as perfect as Windows or OS X, give or take a few points.



Do you mean to say that you haven't been able to find a forum where Windows user can get help?



Peoples doess use other operating systems for a variety of reasons, practically none of which has anything to do with the quality of the product or with its ease of use. See my previous post which said exactly that.



There are different 'versions' of Linux because people (users) have different needs and preferences. Why is there more than one kind of car?

I dont think you understand me, im not saying that Windows or Mac OS are perfect, and that Linux sucks.. im just pointing out that Windows and Mac are more prepared for a home user than linux, Im not talking about the operation system you would have in a big server or so, im talking about the OS you would have in your home pc to check emails, to read pdf files, to see and share pictures, to chat/videoconference with other people, to watch movies, lisent to music, browse the web. as you can see all these activities (which are the most frequent in any home pc user, no matter what OS or version they use) are more about the user and less about the system, linux is all about the system, in the root directory you dont find "my last vacation" or "my pictures" or "my music" or "my favorite web links" or "the funniest email ever" or my "science project" or "my speeches" what you find instead are "boot", "etc" and other bunch of directories that are about the system and not about the user. that the average user wont ever use or find useful or handy. , consequently for a HOME system those directories should be out of sight.
regarding installation of applications well if all applications would come in .deb files and at the end tell you,"hey the application you just installed is in /usr/bin or in /home/mike/bin or in /aplications, it would be fine, but instead you get a .deb that does it all in silent mode, you get a rpm, you get source code that you have to go to terminal and "make" make install blah blah blha. do you think thats about the user? no it isnt, thats about the system.

AcworthJack
August 20th, 2007, 08:36 PM
I think there are three big different areas for computer, those areas are "Professional Usage" (people that uses the computer to do professional works like image editing [photoshop, corel, etc], audio/video editing [Adobe Audition/Adobe premier/SoundForge] 3D Animation [3d Max, Maya, etc] Design [AutoCAD] and for office stuff [reports, database, etc] for all of those things for the only one that Linux is really ready is for office stuff, because there are no applications that are powerful enough [like phtoshop, autocad, etc] compatible with Linux.


I use Windows XP every day - but I really like Ubuntu and would like to switch. I know a lot of other folks are in very similar situations.

Regarding the "desktop readiness" issue - I think it goes back to what was said above - we have "novice users", "advanced users" and "sys admin" types. They each have different needs.

Ubuntu is great - if you can do a bit of tweaking yourself. But - I suggest Windows XP is has the same complexity issues. If you buy a new PC with Windows XP - it has already been configured (with a lot of add ons) to do a lot of stuff. And if you have problems - you call someone – like your brother/son/friend to help. If you are at a company - it is the same deal - you get a PC pre-configured and you call the helpdesk to fix/configure etc.

In that regards - Linux is like Windows and Mac OS. None of them are "novice user" friendly. In fact, I'd go so far as to say most cell phones and DVRs fall into the same group.

Bottom line – in today’s world – you can’t afford to be a novice – you need some skills – or you need a good friend/helpdesk to help you figure things out.

BTW, my 13 year old daughter (and most of her friends) are NOT novices. They spend hours tweaking, configuring and playing with every option of every electronic device they get there hands on. They could use a similarly configured Linux box as equally well as they can use a well configured Windows box even thought they probably could not install either.

My 2 cents: Desktop Ubuntu is not quite ready – but it is getting closer.

Soarer
August 20th, 2007, 09:05 PM
XogGyux my friend, some of what you say is just nonsense. I installed XP this weekend on a Compaq which happily runs Ubuntu. I put in a blank hard disk, the legal XP CD, typed in my (legal) licence code, and installed.

Far from playing DVDs or browsing YouTube, the screen has a resolution of 600x400 and the wired ethernet doesn't work. There are NO programs for editing documents, presenations or spreadsheets, none of my FLAC & ogg files play and there is no way to download updates. The DVD drive doesn't recognise a DVD, let alone play it.

I am really tired of people saying Windows is easier than Ubuntu. Not on installation, it isn't. Please stop saying otherwise. If you make up special slipstreaming disks, no doubt it's different. But how many token grandma's do that?

popch
August 20th, 2007, 09:06 PM
im just pointing out that Windows and Mac are more prepared for a home user than linux, Im not talking about the operation system you would have in a big server or so, im talking about the OS you would have in your home pc.

Yes, yes. That's what this thread is about and what it says in the title.


in the root directory you dont find "my last vacation" or "my pictures" or "my music" or "my favorite web links" or "the funniest email ever" or my "science project" or "my speeches"

And it's just as well that you don't. Linux and OS X get this right. If you use Windows as it is meant, you won't find your stuff in the root directory, either. You will find it in your profile where it belongs.

It is not idle fancy or old habit which makes me say that your files do not belong in the root directory of your boot drive. Rather, a typical home user would easily be stressed when trying to make what we geeks call a backup of his data. Also, how do you tell the directories of different family members apart if they are stored in any which place which comes to mind?



if all applications would come in .deb files and at the end tell you,"hey the application you just installed is in /usr/bin or in /home/mike/bin or in /aplications, it would be fine, .

Whatever for should the application announce where the different files have gone? An application which properly installs itself also puts itself into the Applications menu.

This being the Ubuntu forum, I can tell you that the way of installing applications in Ubuntu is about as easy as it can get. Of course, if you want to install something which has not been 'canned' in a form appropriate for this platform, you are a bit out of luck. You are also out of luck with some Windows installables which don't.

Installing codecs and such is - in most cases - much simpler than in windows. You double-click on the media file. Linux opens a dialog window which explains that the software needed to play that file is not at the moment present on your system, and that you have to click on a button in order to install it. You click on the button which is labelled with the word mentioned in the aforementioned text. You wait a few moments. When the window says to click on 'close', you click on 'close'. The window closes and the media file plays.

Well, nothing's perfect, and in one or two cases Linux did not succeed in installing all that was needed to play something. But then, I had this happen in Windows about equally often.

Frak
August 20th, 2007, 09:30 PM
Well John, regarding ntfs support, i dont think we gonna have that, and it is all thanks to our little friend microsoft, which blocked that filesystem.

100% wrong, this might have already been stated, but OS X and Linux can benefit from the Open Source FUSE driver, which allows *NIX machines to write to NTFS almost perfectly.

KIAaze
August 20th, 2007, 10:07 PM
What about the NTFS-3G driver?

Frak
August 20th, 2007, 10:27 PM
What about the NTFS-3G driver?
I thought that was expected when I said the FUSE driver when talking about read/writing to an NTFS partition.

aysiu
August 20th, 2007, 11:02 PM
Well u put the dvd it shows you the autorun menu, and you clic reproduce dvd on windows media player. You're not talking about a vanilla Windows installation. Windows XP cannot play commercial DVDs. Period.

You need to install a helper application like PowerDVD or InterVideo WinDVD.

XogGyux
August 21st, 2007, 02:16 AM
XogGyux my friend, some of what you say is just nonsense. I installed XP this weekend on a Compaq which happily runs Ubuntu. I put in a blank hard disk, the legal XP CD, typed in my (legal) licence code, and installed.

Far from playing DVDs or browsing YouTube, the screen has a resolution of 600x400 and the wired ethernet doesn't work. There are NO programs for editing documents, presenations or spreadsheets, none of my FLAC & ogg files play and there is no way to download updates. The DVD drive doesn't recognise a DVD, let alone play it.

I am really tired of people saying Windows is easier than Ubuntu. Not on installation, it isn't. Please stop saying otherwise. If you make up special slipstreaming disks, no doubt it's different. But how many token grandma's do that?

Read again, i did say that windows is pretty weak concerning drivers!


And it's just as well that you don't. Linux and OS X get this right. If you use Windows as it is meant, you won't find your stuff in the root directory, either. You will find it in your profile where it belongs.

It is not idle fancy or old habit which makes me say that your files do not belong in the root directory of your boot drive. Rather, a typical home user would easily be stressed when trying to make what we geeks call a backup of his data. Also, how do you tell the directories of different family members apart if they are stored in any which place which comes to mind?

In windows your documents are not in the root directory but in a subdirectory ("My Documents" in win9x or "Documents & Settings\User\My Documents" which is about the same) anyways the point is not where your documents are, the point is that in a HOME computer "System" files in root directory is no sense.


Whatever for should the application announce where the different files have gone? An application which properly installs itself also puts itself into the Applications menu.
I never experienced this but i have read in this forums that some applications "forget" to put the icon in the system menu, althou the solution for this is just restart (what i read) if you dont know the solution is like nothing since the installer would not tell you anything. In my own system i never restart or turn off the pc unless necesary, so if i dont know the solution it could happen 16days before i found out what happend!.


100% wrong, this might have already been stated, but OS X and Linux can benefit from the Open Source FUSE driver, which allows *NIX machines to write to NTFS almost perfectly.

you are right, i didnt express myself correctly, what i meant is that was gonna be difficult, in fact last time i tried to use one of those mighty programs that allows you to modify files from ntfs i ended up with a corrupted partition that windows wouldnt read and that each time windows would boot it will show me the scandisk.


You're not talking about a vanilla Windows installation. Windows XP cannot play commercial DVDs. Period.

You need to install a helper application like PowerDVD or InterVideo WinDVD.
I was talking about windows media center and windows vista, both have media center and thus can reproduce dvd. Anyways check the screen shot, this is windows media player (comes with windows btw)
http://img383.imageshack.us/img383/3929/untitledch4.th.png (http://img383.imageshack.us/my.php?image=untitledch4.png)


Why everything ends up in Windows cannot do this Windows cannot do that...? isent this a Linux forum? Because Windows sucks Linux cannot be improved?

Why each time i say something about linux installation system people only talks about .deb? why no one talks about how easy is to compile a program that you downloaded the source code? or how easy is to install a tar.gz? well after all deb packages where an attempt by Debian to try to simplify the installation procedure that was hard and difficult still when you go to the web you cannot always find a deb package, but generaly you either find a tar.gz or a source code.

In next post i will explain what i just thought it could be better for installation.!

aysiu
August 21st, 2007, 02:24 AM
Why everything ends up in Windows cannot do this Windows cannot do that...? isent this a Linux forum? Because Windows sucks Linux cannot be improved? Actually, I responded (http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=3222599&postcount=8401) to your post earlier linking to a number of places where I have spelled out what can be improved. You seem to have ignored that post (http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=3222599&postcount=8401) completely.


Why each time i say something about linux installation system people only talks about .deb? why no one talks about how easy is to compile a program that you downloaded the source code? or how easy is to install a tar.gz? well after all deb packages where an attempt by Debian to try to simplify the installation procedure that was hard and difficult still when you go to the web you cannot always find a deb package, but generaly you either find a tar.gz or a source code. Because you generally don't go to a website to find software. You go to your package manager. Going to a website to find Linux software is like going to Start Menu > Control Panel > Add/Remove Programs to find software to install in Windows. That's not the way things are typically done.

XogGyux
August 21st, 2007, 02:33 AM
if i went to the website was actually because the program didnt show up in synaptic package actually!