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ticopelp
June 18th, 2007, 03:06 AM
So I have to say im going back to Windows until Linux can catch up. If anyone thinks about installing Ubuntu, Good Luck. As you can see there are hundreds of posts in this forum with people having issues with it. Its just not ready for the public.

Yes, and the Microsoft forums are no doubt silent wastelands devoid of anyone with any issues. :roll:

nate_nightroad
June 18th, 2007, 03:08 AM
u gave up way to quickly man....
u will love linux if u spend alittle more time with it.....

Haruko147
June 18th, 2007, 03:09 AM
I do think that the hundreds of post with problems are more due to the fact if someone didn't have a problem, they wouldn't bother to report everything was running perfect at regular intervals. ^^

raul_
June 18th, 2007, 03:10 AM
I just don't get why people keep on posting that they're leaving...it's like begging for flames

starcraft.man
June 18th, 2007, 03:10 AM
I tried Ubuntu Linux for a week trying to get away from the windows environment. It didn't work the way I thought. First you have to learn the commands for the terminal, that could be frustrating. Then a lot of hardware is not installed correctly. I couldn't get my tv card to work, my sound was screwed up, my webcam wasn't working right and more. Learning commands is part of the game. In windows, there are a million different places hiding options in the GUI/registry. You have to learn those too. TV card and webcams are a bit difficult to set up in Ubuntu from what I seen, sound should have worked unless you have a separate card like an audigy.

Linux may work for some people but it wouldn't work with my system correctly. It is a neat OS if you just want email and internet and Openoffice. Other than that, most programs for Windows that everyone enjoys just will not work in Ubuntu. It does plenty of production and other things. OpenOffice, GIMP, Blender, Audacity, Cinelerra and many more are quality applications that do run native. Ubuntu is not a cheap clone to run Windows apps in, it has its own. Just like the Mac has with iLife if you switch to that. They can be found and catalogued at linuxappfinder. (http://linuxappfinder.com/)

So I have to say im going back to Windows until Linux can catch up. If anyone thinks about installing Ubuntu, Good Luck. As you can see there are hundreds of posts in this forum with people having issues with it. Its just not ready for the public. Linux doesn't have to adjust at all, its you that has to learn. I'd like to see you had Windows to a novice and try to get him to tweak his registry without any instruction or get him to modify the policies in Vista without any instruction. The bottom line is Linux is not Windows, and that seems to be what you expected.

Like I said in my closing, you seem to have had some misinformed notion of Ubuntu/Linux. Its not a free copy of Windows. It doesn't do everything the same, neither does Mac I might add and they sell too. It does things differently, and if you don't want to spend the time to learn then thats simply your choice and you should continue to use Windows. You also, from your post count didn't ask for much help at all or it seems to me try to look at different qualtiy applications for production that are native. Honestly, seems like you were setting it up to fail and just giving it enough to say you tried.

Thanks for giving it a try, and good bye.

Oh and Raul I agree, I do wonder why people post these departure threads. As if they expect some magical wand to be waved by us forum folk and make Ubuntu work perfectly in a saving grace that prevents their departure. That happens in movies...

raul_
June 18th, 2007, 03:13 AM
You just came up with 3 reasons? On a whole OS? man that's weak :P

BTW, that recompile your kernel everytime you want drivers is just a lie.

tanelt
June 18th, 2007, 03:14 AM
Obviously, the CLI is much much faster and more convineant.
FOR AN EXPERIENCED USER, not for a newcomer switching from another OS.


What would be more important:
1. Making as many users dump Windows as possible, so that the hardware manufacturers can focus making more and better drivers for Linux and the game developers also make games for Linux, so that we ALL can benefit.
2. Having 2% of the people in the world using Linux on the desktop. The hardware support is very limited and nothing changes. Microsoft still has more than 90% of the market share. And 99% of the good game titles are only made for Windows.

To me it seems most users here would prefer option no 2.

steveneddy
June 18th, 2007, 03:16 AM
Linux probably won't be for the masses any time soon, but I believe that someone will come up with a distro that will be more GUI oriented, like Linspire, to encourage more windows users to switch to Linux.

If it were easy, everyone would be using it, but it isn't easy and everyone isn't using it.

The masses are like sheep. If it isn't a point and click world on the monitor, they will run away. Most of them can barely read much less type.They just want it to display the pron and e-mail from AOL.

Linux has a learning curve and will be CLI environment no matter how much you scream.

That's my two cents. thanks for the beans.

raul_
June 18th, 2007, 03:17 AM
FOR AN EXPERIENCED USER, not for a newcomer switching from another OS.


Or for someone who spent 2 minutes looking in google, or typing "man" in the terminal

Did you know that OSX has a terminal too? :rolleyes:

raul_
June 18th, 2007, 03:19 AM
That's my two cents. thanks for the beans.

Posts in the cafe don't count ;)

starcraft.man
June 18th, 2007, 03:23 AM
FOR AN EXPERIENCED USER, not for a newcomer switching from another OS. Right and you become an experienced user by learning the CLI, you actually have to use something to learn it. Just like riding a bike, you fall off and learn. *shock*


What would be more important:
1. Making as many users dump Windows as possible, so that the hardware manufacturers can focus making more and better drivers for Linux and the game developers also make games for Linux, so that we ALL can benefit.
2. Having 2% of the people in the world using Linux on the desktop. The hardware support is very limited and nothing changes. Microsoft still has more than 90% of the market share. And 99% of the good game titles are only made for Windows.

To me it seems most users here would prefer option no 2.

Neither or your choices are good. I believe whats most important is that people make an INFORMED choice about their OS. To realize there is a very capable free OS that can do everything you need. I know people who pay for copies of Windows and all they do is surf the web and write letters in gmail or Office Word. Do they need to pay for windows and office to do that? No. My goal by using Ubuntu and being here is to make it an option for people who want an option. People who are content with Windows or Mac will see no need for Linux and simply not use it, we can't be for everyone.. .

BTW, if the terminal is so poor and bad, why did Windows spend all that time on a powershell? Also why does Mac still have a complete implementation of Bash (i believe)? They could have taken it out entirely... your just pulling at straws it seems.

Edit: wuups bad typo :p its bash :D.

JAPrufrock
June 18th, 2007, 03:27 AM
I can understand where Livewire's coming from- sort of. If I didn't hate MS I might have given up too. I also had a hardware issue. It was a Lexmark printer- no way was I going to get that monster to work. After much frustration I had to make a decision- go back to Windows, or pick up a new printer somewhere. I decided to get a new printer. I found a neat old HP laserjet IIIp for $50 that works just fine. Moral of the story- most hardware will work on Ubuntu if you try hard enough. If the hardware still doesn't work, junk it and get something else. It's worth it!!

bronxNZ
June 18th, 2007, 03:30 AM
The nice thing about Ubuntu is the community spirit, I have only recently swapped to Linux but any issues I have found with hardware so far people have been more than willing to help and often someone has already had the same problem and you can easily look up a solution and follow through with the instructions.

It may be a change to windows but it is a welcome change and so far I am enjoying it immensely. It takes time but is well worth the effort.

steveneddy
June 18th, 2007, 03:30 AM
Posts in the cafe don't count ;)

Darn

starcraft.man
June 18th, 2007, 03:32 AM
Darn

LOL! I wish. I would have racked over 2500 beans by now if it had :p.

Nekiruhs
June 18th, 2007, 03:35 AM
Neither or your choices are good. I believe whats most important is that people make an INFORMED choice about their OS. To realize there is a very capable free OS that can do everything you need. I know people who pay for copies of Windows and all they do is surf the web and write letters in gmail or Office Word. Do they need to pay for windows and office to do that? No. My goal by using Ubuntu and being here is to make it an option for people who want an option. People who are content with Windows or Mac will see no need for Linux and simply not use it, we can't be for everyone.. .

BTW, if the terminal is so poor and bad, why did Windows spend all that time on a powershell? Also why does Mac still have a complete implementation of Bach (i believe)? They could have taken it out entirely... your just pulling at straws it seems.

Bach or BASH, what is the difference? Is Bach just a more specialized (or generalized?) BASH?

screaminj3sus
June 18th, 2007, 03:38 AM
All I know is that I can't wait for Xorg 7.3 to be in ubuntu, having to edit this file to get the right resolution ect.. is Ridiculous and very daunting to new users. My only real beef with linux. having to add a modeline because the highest the stupid screen resolution chooser gives you is 1024x768 at 51 Hz for my widescreen LCD is very inconievent.

raul_
June 18th, 2007, 03:39 AM
Bach or BASH, what is the difference? Is Bach just a more specialized (or generalized?) BASH?

Just a typo =p you have a lot of shells you can choose from.

dash, sh, bash...you name it

I had to implement a shell for one of my programming classes...I use bash, but they're pretty much the same, although i believe this wasn't true some years ago

acowboydave
June 18th, 2007, 03:40 AM
One week? was given a throw away computer because it crashed all the time even when it was reformated. Runs with VL great and no crashes in 1 month, knock on wood, also running Ubuntu on a duel boot setup, Linux? Not perfect but neither is MS, but I'm a beginner so my experiance is limited.

tanelt
June 18th, 2007, 03:40 AM
I believe whats most important is that people make an INFORMED choice about their OS. To realize there is a very capable free OS that can do everything you need.

Being informed is of no use if those people can not use their wireless cards, monitors, mp3-players, etc out-of-the-box or by a simple point and click driver installation (like it is in Windows). People don't want to spend days manually editing configuration files and learning the CLI just to do the basic things.

The support for local hardware is above all. Take a look at this short video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BM2NBDTbRQI


BTW, if the terminal is so poor and bad, why did Windows spend all that time on a powershell? Also why does Mac still have a complete implementation of Bach (i believe)? They could have taken it out entirely... your just pulling at straws it seems.
Windows is not dependable on the CLI. That is its key of success. Having the option to use the CLI as an alternative (which is more powerful and convenient for experienced users) doesn't hurt.

raul_
June 18th, 2007, 03:44 AM
Being informed is of no use if those people can not use their wireless cards, monitors, mp3-players, etc out-of-the-box or by a simple point and click driver installation (like it is in Windows). People don't want to spend days manually editing configuration files and learning the CLI just to do the basic things.

The support for local hardware is above all. Take a look at this short video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BM2NBDTbRQI


Windows is not dependable on the CLI. That is its key of success. Having the option to use the CLI as an alternative (which is more powerful and convenient for experienced users) doesn't hurt.

Please name some of the basic things you must do in the terminal

ryanVickers
June 18th, 2007, 03:45 AM
When I was new to this, you couldn't believe what I went through! for atleast 2 months, I had no internet, It took so long to get wine and crossover working, the beryl (which was a big draw in) didn't work (but it does now), oh, what else...

Well, I love it now, and I think you should give it a little while longer. But judging on how you feel, your no ware near ready to give up windows - try ubuntu once and a while and slowly shift to it completely! I did this only about 4 months ago myself, although I started the transition ~ when 6.06 came out. I started on Redhat when I was 9, so it can't be that hard! :p

Ennead
June 18th, 2007, 03:46 AM
I have spent countless hours trying to get Windows stuff to work, with very little help from MS and related forums. I had some trouble getting Ubuntu to work at first, too. But the Ubuntu forum is second to none! These people are great. They got me past my initial hurdles, and I am very thankful to them for that. Anything worth learning is going to take time and effort, and Ubuntu is no exception. Livewire, you gave up too quickly. I almost did too, but I am SOOOOO glad I kept going. Good luck with Vista. ;)

Spr0k3t
June 18th, 2007, 03:46 AM
I'd like to see a response from the OP regarding the replies above detailing his thoughts after posting.

alecwh
June 18th, 2007, 03:46 AM
I'm relatively a new user too (I think 4 days now), and I can't get enough of LInux. Once you get past all the hardware stuff (which was fun!), this OS is definately the best. :D

Why can't people just leave? Why start a thread? :P

FleetAdmiral74
June 18th, 2007, 03:50 AM
You know WIndows can be JUST as hard. Most people think it is much, much easier however cause they NEVER have to install it. They get it from Dell and HP, with all the drivers already setup and configured. Don't fool yourself into thinking that nothing works on Linux, and everything works on Windows off the bat, it is not true.

ryanVickers
June 18th, 2007, 03:50 AM
Why can't people just leave? Why start a thread? :pI'm like this too sometimes, so I can't complain about them, but everyone has got a little salesman in them - you just gotta get your foot in the door, whether they want/need you or not! :p

Feba
June 18th, 2007, 03:50 AM
To me it seems most users here would prefer option no 2.

Honestly, I would rather have a solid operating system that works very well and is easy and powerful to use after 30 minutes of reading a tutorial than a program where I spend 30% of my time in GUI hell looking for a special little check box or some crap.

Seriously, think about HOW most CLI elements could be made into GUIs. Most of them would just be check boxes next to terms users wouldn't understand anyway.

A new/average user DOESN'T NEED to mess with their system settings, as they will either have someone do it for them, or leave it as is.


And really, you have to be silly to think that Linux is going to have a huge share of the market any time soon. People have been saying that for about a decade. It's not that linux isn't ready for the desktop, Ubuntu works at least as well as Vista, it's that consumers aren't ready for linux. The average person is not going to leave their warm comfy home for unfamiliar land, where they're going to be relying on the other people with them.

Consider Linux as the New World. We're sometime in the late 1500s, early 1600s still. We need to wait at least a couple hundred more years. People aren't going to leave the luxury of their homes for something with a rough journey, and the only way to make the journey easy is to copy windows, which nobody wants to do, as it would make things worse in the long run.

bone43
June 18th, 2007, 03:51 AM
Stick with it for at least a couple weeks if you can try and get every thing working use it as much as possible then after a couple of weeks start using windows again and see what you think then!

I bet you have a different opinion. :D

RedSquirrel
June 18th, 2007, 03:52 AM
This is worth a glance:

Is Ubuntu for You? (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=63315)

steveneddy
June 18th, 2007, 03:52 AM
Well as long as it's over, I'll get a bean.

http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/1544/postiig9bm6.gif (http://imageshack.us)

wolfen69
June 18th, 2007, 03:53 AM
i love linux, it works for me. ive never had an OS work better.

starcraft.man
June 18th, 2007, 03:58 AM
Just a typo =p you have a lot of shells you can choose from.

dash, sh, bash...you name it

I had to implement a shell for one of my programming classes...I use bash, but they're pretty much the same, although i believe this wasn't true some years ago

LOL, that was such a bad typo. Stop picking on me :p


Being informed is of no use if those people can not use their wireless cards, monitors, mp3-players, etc out-of-the-box or by a simple point and click driver installation (like it is in Windows). People don't want to spend days manually editing configuration files and learning the CLI just to do the basic things.


Your right, and those people who can't be bothered to put an effort into (learn a new OS, and how it works) it should either buy a Dell or stay using Windows. Thats the solution for people who just want something "working". Better yet is to get a Mac, those are almost perfect due to the fact that apple writes the software and makes the limited hardware. It's not for everyone. I haven't given Ubuntu to my parents, they don't have a problem with XP and it is secured by me. In the end it boils down to a simple point, people who want to learn will. Just like people who want to find thousands of flaws in linux will. I like you can point to numerous still remaining flaws in Windows and probably list a few more than your points.

Btw, just curious but you seem to know what everyone thinks when you say such broad reaching generalizations as "people". Are you psychic and do you know what everyone thinks? Including me? Just curious.


The support for local hardware is above all. Take a look at this short video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BM2NBDTbRQI
I don't really care what Pirillo thinks.


Windows is not dependable on the CLI. That is its key of success. Having the option to use the CLI as an alternative (which is more powerful and convenient for experienced users) doesn't hurt.

I don't think anyone has to use CLI. So long as hardware is generic/supported (if not, thats tough luck... the hardware situation is as is, and companies like ATI continue to shaft linux) on their machine, I have numerous ways to get people to install things without using one sentence in the terminal, if thats what they want. Most users I guide don't mind CLI and in fact want to learn it though. Feel free to give an example where one must use the terminal for something basic...

ryanVickers
June 18th, 2007, 03:58 AM
Is Ubuntu for You? (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=63315)
seems like a good post. It's good to try and spred linux as much as possible, but it could backfire if a ton of people go out and get it and form a bad opinion because they weren't ready for the change!

Feba
June 18th, 2007, 03:58 AM
Being informed is of no use if those people can not use their wireless cards, monitors, mp3-players, etc out-of-the-box or by a simple point and click driver installation (like it is in Windows). People don't want to spend days manually editing configuration files and learning the CLI just to do the basic things.

Average users do basic things. Basic things do not involve the command line. What you're thinking of is a power user, which is probably what you were in windows. You are not a power user any more, you are at the bottom of the ladder again, and you need to learn how to climb all over again. Deal with it.

The things you want to do are not basic. This doesn't make sense to you because you're used to being able to do it in windows. This IS NOT WINDOWS. If you want windows, I'll be happy to point you to any tech store, and you can buy a copy from them. If you want a free version of Windows, look up ReactOS and leave us alone. If you want linux, LEARN TO USE LINUX, just like everyone here has, and quit-yer-bitchin'

Windows is not dependable on the CLI. That is its key of success.
Then why did DOS do well, despite it's CLI? Why did MS go back and INTENTIONALLY PUT A COMMAND LINE BACK IN?

The key to window's success is shady business practices and luck. If you've EVER read about the history of the tech industry, even watched a program on TV you'd know that Microsoft is incredibly lucky to be where it is.


. I know people who pay for copies of Windows and all they do is surf the web and write letters in gmail or Office Word.I know people that pirate windows to do the same thing. People are retarded.

Zenerek
June 18th, 2007, 04:00 AM
Alright i was not sure if i was going to reply again but then someone started singing that old song about how google is all help you need to get your ubuntu runing

Now i'll admit that for most things google has been helpfull but you can't find everything that way,before i posted for help here i searched and searched, asked for help on the ubuntu channel and tried my own attempts at making gparted detect thr rad array,but still nothing

I did a search here on the forums, turns out i was not the only having hardware raid problems and just like my thread, they are collectng dust unanswered

It may be hardware raid is hard to get running in ubuntu?

Oh and the man files make me very sleepy, mean they list the commands inclosed in strange brackets and such,list all manner of unesential options and almost never give enough examples(the ones i've seen anyway)

if able prefer to use them as alternate reading materiial or maybe if i feel rested enough to read one

Feba
June 18th, 2007, 04:01 AM
Oh, and OP, if you have such great ideas on how to change linux forever and get us a majority market share, linux is free as in speech. You can take it, change it around, and make it your own.

If you REALLY think your ideas will make linux so much better, Make your own distro and Prove us wrong.

Everything you need is free. Just go do it.

FuturePilot
June 18th, 2007, 04:01 AM
1. The X Configuration file. This is outrageous(yes, outrageous) to have for something as commonplace as a GUI. Almost everyone using a desktop distro will use a GUI, so why have a configuration file? In my experience, it only creates frustration. Why should I have to edit this file to add acceleration or change the resolution or bit depth? It should be built into a control panel setting. The configuration file should _not_ exist at _all_.
Either you have config files or you have them all in one location like Windows does it. i.e. the Registry and IMO that set up is doomed to failure and is a horrible way of doing things.


2. Compiling drivers into the kernel. On windows, I don't have to do this, so why should I have to do this on Linux? On windows, I just open the device manger, click update driver, and find the .inf file. On linux, I usually have to download a tarball(or two, or three) and compile them into the kernel. The kernel should be set once you get it. Windows manages to have a closed source kernel and binary drivers without recompiling anything, so why should linux require a kernel recompile for anything?

You might want to look here for a better explanation on this one
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=470853


3. The command line dependency. This is the worst part about Linux altogether. Yes, so called power users tout that the command line is great and powerful.However, it's very annoying to the average user. Linux needs to have everything rooted in GUI, and possibly abandon the shell as a 'basis' for the OS(a la Windows NT).
I like the fact that Linux still uses the command line. Windows completely ditched the command line a long time ago. That Command Prompt thing is only a layer. It's not a real command line like Linux has. I believe Mac OS still has a true command line. If Linux ditched the command line, I don't know what I would do. I'd be lost. It's just such a powerful tool.


1. A device manager with SIMPLE driver management needs to be added. A binary format for drivers needs to be established similar to what windows has. Just browse for the .inf file and click install. That's all that should need ot be done. There shouldn't be obscure dependecies for drivers. Everything needs to be built into the kernel.
Most everything is already built into the kernel. The only time you would ever need to recompile the kernel is if you want to add some obscure driver. The average user will probably never have to do this.


2. All configuraiton files should be eliminated. As it stands now, GUI tools only try to edit these configuration files, which is an ugly process. Therefore, configuration files need to be eliminated in favor of a GUI tool to apply settings.You can't completely abolish them. They have to be put somewhere or else nothing would run. Windows has config files they're just all in one central location and referred to as Registry Keys. They perform the same function as config files. I'm fine with the way things are now in Linux. I'd hate to see a Registry in Linux.

starcraft.man
June 18th, 2007, 04:02 AM
I know people that pirate windows to do the same thing. People are retarded.

ROFL! Uh, no comment... I know those people too. They just don't know any better, and MS even encourages it long as it isn't linux :P.

tanelt
June 18th, 2007, 04:04 AM
Please name some of the basic things you must do in the terminal

A few things which I consider to be basic:


Installing the graphics card drivers
Configuring the graphics card drivers
Getting the resolution to work on a CRT monitor
Getting the refresh rate to work to work on a CRT monitor
Installing wireless card drivers in order to get an internet access
Making sound to play in flash (and also previously we had to INSTALL the flash-plugin from the CLI, which was just retarded)
Installing and/or configuring the printer to work
Installing and/or configuring the scanner to work
Installing and/or configuring the mp3-player (drivers)
Installing and/or configuring my webcam (drivers)

Please tell me how can I do them without ever touching the CLI nor manually editing any configuration files. Manually editing xorg.conf seems just as inhuman to a newcomer.


People are retarded.
No ****, Sherlock.

Feba
June 18th, 2007, 04:06 AM
I believe Mac OS still has a true command line.

OSX is a purdy version of UNIX, and yes, it has a shell for bash. I don't think the earlier versions of Mac OS (Up to System 9) had a command line, although I haven't used them since 5th grade

silverglade00
June 18th, 2007, 04:07 AM
I think it's a good idea for them to leave a thread if they are actually giving reasons why they left instead of just blowing steam. It gives the devs ideas about where they need to improve.

ryanVickers
June 18th, 2007, 04:11 AM
Very true. But then there's micro$oft - do you all know about that thing they put in xp where when something crashes you can send a report? I bet they just looked through all that reports and decided that if they make it look really nice and hope real hard the customers won't care, vista would be a success! :p

vexorian
June 18th, 2007, 04:13 AM
2. All configuraiton files should be eliminated

editing files is faster -> keep the files.


3. The command line dependency. This is the worst part about Linux altogether. Yes, so called power users tout that the command line is great and powerful.However, it's very annoying to the average user


I actually didn't HAVE to use the terminal since I installed breezy, I however used it because it IS very cool, I don't think the terminal should ever be removed.




2. Compiling drivers into the kernel. On windows, I don't have to do this, so why should I have to do this on Linux? On windows, I just open the device manger, click update driver, and find the .inf file. On linux, I usually have to download a tarball(or two, or three) and compile them into the kernel. The kernel should be set once you get it. Windows manages to have a closed source kernel and binary drivers without recompiling anything, so why should linux require a kernel recompile for anything?
I call humbug, I didn't have to recompile the kernel ever and I've been using it for 1 year already. And I do have 3D acceleration, I didn't have to tune the xorg file either.

..

Get real: terminal is easier to use than a GUI, it is way easier to type "sudo apt-get wine" than to follow instructions about how to install WINE through GUI, even though synaptic does make it possible for the guys that don't want to ever use the terminal....

--
Please don't make Linux imitate any of the "brilliant" ideas from windows and Mac OS/X

.-

Must point out something:

I dunno anything about how Mac OS/X works, I had enough with a single expensive proprietary OS than to try yet another one that requires me to buy a whole new computer. Anyways I do know how windows works:

- It does have a terminal, a very limited one, without any scripting capabilities thus it is harder to use.
- It has no "config files" in theory, it instead has got a totally insane database that you can't edit outside windows, this OBVIOUSLY means you cannot fix your system from the outside if some virus ruined it, it is also a very strong bottlenet, the registry can get corrupted and then you are screwed, every app will have issues, yay!

And apps that follow the "use the registry" convention require very heavy "installation" if it wasn't for the registry we would be able to make almost any application portable (see www.portableapps.com for more info)

so, for me: config files = good, look at it like: Newbie uses GUI to modiffy something and screws up his system, there is now only command line in Linux so to help him you tell him to join the command line and edit the config file to repair it, that's something that is not as easy (it is in fact impossible) in windows.

johnny4north
June 18th, 2007, 04:13 AM
i hate the fact that most Linux distros don't come in a wrapped box, with fresh new smell. there is nothing like opening a software box full of colorful manuals and brochures. well mandrake 7.2($25) came in a box(all the way from France, less then a wk). oh, joy. i remember it like yesterday. happy dance. \\:D/ :oops:
i would live on top-roman for a month. i would roll up those old coins. do the laundry by hand, all to save up the money, just to buy the latest and greatest windoz os(not). there is no greater joy, when you give a complete stranger $220.00 dollars, to use there os, just to return it via file 13.
Linux os teams and developers should learn a thing or two from windoz. wrap those os's in a pretty boxes full of confetti. spray the new smell on them and then, Then charge us $440.00. why, well i tell you why. because, Linux is twice the os, than the windows and gates every could be. do this and I will be happy. lol.....loL....LOL...cough .... wheeezz.
PS. Linux is good to me. :D peace out peeps

Feba
June 18th, 2007, 04:16 AM
Installing the graphics card drivers
Configuring the graphics card drivers
Getting the resolution to work on a CRT monitor
Getting the refresh rate to work to work on a CRT monitor
Installing wireless card drivers in order to get an internet access
Making sound to play in flash (and also previously we had to INSTALL the flash-plugin from the CLI, which was just retarded)
Installing and/or configuring the printer to work
Installing and/or configuring the scanner to work
Installing and/or configuring the mp3-player (drivers)
Installing and/or configuring my webcam (drivers)


From the viewpoint of an average user:

1-5: Handled by the factory or a tech friend.
6: This is the fault of the people who make and use the software, not linux.
7-8: Again, usually handled by the factory, or a tech friend.
9: I don't know what your problem is here, even my ipod works fine on Ubuntu. Once again though, this is a manufacturer problem, which linux can't do anything about.
10: Again, most windows users will have a tech inclined friend help them with this anyway. I don't know what your problem is with your webcam, but i've never heard of anyone having trouble setting one up on linux, although I admit I have had no interest in them.


Please tell me how can I do them without ever touching the CLI nor manually editing any configuration files.
Maybe you can't. I know tons of things in Windows I had to modify my registry, boot into safe mode, or at least fumble with a bunch of GUIs I didn't understand. The problem is *Users need to educate themselves. Making the software into a glitchy piece of crap will only help users screw up their systems, not make them work*

Nekiruhs
June 18th, 2007, 04:19 AM
I like the idea of human readable config files. I even like the CLI! In fact, this command has been bugging me to run it for months

sudo mv /media/XpDrive /dev/null
But I have yet to do it (hardcore gamer am I). So not everyone hates the terminal, and not everyone hates the config files.

Zenerek
June 18th, 2007, 04:23 AM
Registry in linux, don't even say that

that's one thing i won't ever miss about windows, in fact it's worth brething a sigh of relief that you never need register software and keys....god i hate that

raul_
June 18th, 2007, 04:24 AM
A few things which I consider to be basic:


Installing the graphics card drivers
Configuring the graphics card drivers
Getting the resolution to work on a CRT monitor
Getting the refresh rate to work to work on a CRT monitor
Installing wireless card drivers in order to get an internet access
Making sound to play in flash (and also previously we had to INSTALL the flash-plugin from the CLI, which was just retarded)
Installing and/or configuring the printer to work
Installing and/or configuring the scanner to work
Installing and/or configuring the mp3-player (drivers)
Installing and/or configuring my webcam (drivers)

Please tell me how can I do them without ever touching the CLI nor manually editing any configuration files. Manually editing xorg.conf seems just as inhuman to a newcomer.




Well, first things first. Everythin that has "install"in front of it, doesn't need a terminal. You're making my job easy here. Movin on!!

Everything about your CRT monitor can be done via dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg, you don't need a CLI to start it, just ALT+F2 and copy paste it.

You don't need to install flash player from the command line. Just copy and paste a file in the plugins folder with Nautilus.

Face it, most tutorials only tell you to use the command line because it's faster. You can do anything with a GUI (maybe not everything), but hey, if you're following tutorials, how hard it is to copy....and paste something? like, LITERALLY, copying and pasting something.

If you're mad with the guys that made your scanner/printer/mp3player(sorry but i don't believe the last one) configurable by the command line, why don't you e-mail the manufacturer, and tell them you want a neat graphical interface to configure their devices in Linux, or you won't buy anything from them again.

starcraft.man
June 18th, 2007, 04:26 AM
A few things which I consider to be basic:


Installing the graphics card drivers - Envy. (http://albertomilone.com/nvidia_scripts1.html)
Configuring the graphics card drivers - Envy. (http://albertomilone.com/nvidia_scripts1.html)
Getting the resolution to work on a CRT monitor - Average user I know has an LCD, my screen configured without any input after Envy.
Getting the refresh rate to work to work on a CRT monitor - Average user I know has an LCD, my screen configured without any input after Envy.
Installing wireless card drivers in order to get an internet access - Admittedly a serious problem in Ubuntu. I have heard some cards work well almost out of box. It isn't easy and usually takes CLI, I give this one to you.
Making sound to play in flash (and also previously we had to INSTALL the flash-plugin from the CLI, which was just retarded) - Never had the problem, my flash worked after I installed it without trouble. Its available in Synaptic as well.
Installing and/or configuring the printer to work - My printer configured with add printer and was detected. No CLI needed.
Installing and/or configuring the scanner to work - Same for my HP scanner, works without CLI.
Installing and/or configuring the mp3-player (drivers) - Automatix (don't really wanna recommend it) and a combination of software sources and synaptic under administration can get this installed. Neither need CLI.
Installing and/or configuring my webcam (drivers) - Never done this myself, admittedly it is a problem I have heard.

Please tell me how can I do them without ever touching the CLI nor manually editing any configuration files. Manually editing xorg.conf seems just as inhuman to a newcomer.

So, at most you have 2 problems I couldn't solve via GUI. Most people I know use ethernet still and not wireless so I dunno whether to count that as a problem. 2 out of all those still ain't too bad.

I'm going now, seems your still grasping at straws just for argument sake. I got a movie to watch, I think it will be more entertaining before I go to bed. Night.

mistergq
June 18th, 2007, 04:30 AM
I understanding not having all the time in the world to play around with the things because i am too busy in real life. But one week? :rolleyes: come on. The first laptop that I installed Linux on had a sound issue that took over a month to install. Because of that, I learned a lot about playing around linux.

I am actually about ready to move from a very reliable Windows DVR program to MythTV. It is very scary, but I think I am going to do it before the start of the fall season.

oh well, one week huh...maybe you should have tried a little harder.

nukkariffic
June 18th, 2007, 04:33 AM
It's really too bad you gave up so soon. :(

I tried to switch once, but it was in the middle of school and I just couldn't deal with learning a new OS and trying to complete all my assignments at the same time, so I changed back. A couple weeks ago (Yes, I'm a noob) I tried again. No dual boot, just a cold turkey changeover. I forced/am forcing myself to learn. At this point, I don't think I'd ever go back. I can do so much more easily here than in Windows. My web cam and sound worked w/o any problem. I guess sticking w/ common names paid off. **shrug**

If you can't go cold turkey, try doing it in pieces. Dual boot, something like that.

lamalex
June 18th, 2007, 04:40 AM
jeeze, if you think Ubuntu is hard .. well I'd hate to be your calculus teacher.

vexorian
June 18th, 2007, 05:16 AM
tanelt , random fact, my nvidia card worked almost out of the box after installing this OS, in order to set the max resolution I just had to "download restricter drivers" something that the OS told me to do anyways, I didn't have to deal with xorg.conf or whatever not with the terminal nor anything.

Sometimes it is the hardware, and hardware manufacturers are to blame, really. But user is to blame for trying software that is not supported by his hardware, and of course the software distrubutors for not preventing it to happen.

Right now we got an auto monopoly, and that is a bad thing, it allows MS to be lazy or not to care about the user but its real "customers", it disallows fair competition.

Let's hypothetically say that there was an amazing operating system made by true geniuses, let's say the easy interface and looks of Mac OS/X , the flexibility and cost of Linux and the innovation and vision of long-forgotten early MS.

This super system wouldn't be allowed to grow up, or it would take ages to grow up, Because of the hardware vendors don't give a damn, because software vendors don't give a damn (IT is so painfully easy to make software that would run literally anywhere you would die of surprise) and finally the organizations don't give a damn.

We let a giant lock us in in 3 different ways, hardware vendors only focus on one platform, because they are lazy (not because one platform is better than the other), software vendors focus on one or 2 platforms for no reason) And organizations use totally locked formats to share information.

With that on count, is Linux really to blame? I am sorry that your screen resolution doesn't work correctly on it, but you got to consider that Linux developers get to do triple the work of windows developers, because they have to make the OS compatible with hardware and not the opposite, it is hard, it takes a lot of time.

In regards of the elitist users, please take a look at your original thread in which you wanted to fix your issue, you got plenty of people trying to help, please don't forget that.

Sometimes you have to wait, it all seems your hardware isn't compatible, so just move on. I don't know if you really had to use uTorrent on Linux considering the heckload of torrent downloaders but there you go, maybe Linux wasn't for you.

In my opinion Linux is ready for the desktop, the issue is that some desktops are not ready for Linux yet. If you really want to try Linux seriously then donate your hardware issues to the community in a serious way, although that probably already happened, reporting those issues directly to xorg might be a good idea, then wait, there's no reason in flooding every single thread about it, if you made a decition about choosing windows then go for it. Nobody is going to stop you. Choice is always a good thing.

kevmore
June 18th, 2007, 05:54 AM
Maybe you have a pos computer. I installed ubuntu on my compaq laptop that is at least 4 or 5 years old, and everyting worked flawlessly from the get go. The only problem I had was the wireless wasn't working. A quick trip to the ubuntu forums and I had the answer to my problems, and now it all works great. All that took about 3 days and I have been linux for a few months now, and I love it. BTW I have been using windows since it was invented, and there are still many things I don't know how to do. Linux isn't harder, it's different.

swoll1980
June 18th, 2007, 06:06 AM
You know microsoft has forums too if you ever looked at them you would see that there full of people having problems too. you were not born knowing how to use windows. I think people forget that.

raul_
June 18th, 2007, 06:14 AM
you were not born knowing how to use windows.

ha! I bet you say the Easter Bunny doesn't exist! :popcorn:

Tails Prower
June 18th, 2007, 06:19 AM
You're right, we oughta march right into Linus Torvalds office and get our money back.

BlahMan_of.Doom
June 18th, 2007, 06:27 AM
Ubuntu is the most user-intuitive linux. You could use wine or cedega..but whatever. Hope you come back!

Jimmyfj
June 18th, 2007, 06:41 AM
What can I say? Hope you hit the lottery jackpot if planning to run Windows - Maybe you should consider spending some of your money on books on computers like you do on your Windows - About Ubuntu? Go get a refund

swoll1980
June 18th, 2007, 07:12 AM
You know I started to teach my self to type a couple of days ago, and amazingly enough I'm still no good at It.
I put it off for years because poking at the keys was just so easy, and familiar. What makes a difference anyways. Right? The difference is once you learn how to do it typing is better, it's faster it's more efficient, and it does not make you look retarded. Sure right now it's harder it's slower it's a pain in the butt. In the end it will be all worth it though because I will know that I learned something to improve my self, and that I did not take the easy way out. Going back to windows would be like me paying a dictator to type for me for the rest of my life 'cause I do not want to spend a couple months learning to do some thing right. It took me a good thirty minutes to type this and I'm proud of my self I didn't look at the keyboard one time. In the future don't tell people you gave up something 'cause you could not learn it in a week. You sound like my 10 year old daughter giving up on her guitar she wanted for Cristmas, because she could not play like Jimmie Hendrix after the first few days. You should keep it to your self next time so you don't sound like an idiot.

videocheez
June 18th, 2007, 07:20 AM
I'm frustrated too man but I want to hang on to learn this thing. There are lots of die hards here who seem to really enjoy it. Maybe I'll say the same in a month or two but not until then. My biggest complaint so far is that peopl will perhaps answer a my initial question when I post but on the big problems that i'm having there has not been much follow through or explanation of the suggestions. I have got the critical questions answered when I had some major screw ups. Sorry you bailed dude, We noobs need to feel like we are not alone. ;)

bodhi.zazen
June 18th, 2007, 07:27 AM
LOL livewire94

Thank you for looking at Ubuntu. sorry you had such a hard time of it.

I am going to merge this thread ...

allix
June 18th, 2007, 07:34 AM
Other than that, most programs for Windows that everyone enjoys just will not work in Ubuntu.

Ofcourse not, you wouldn't run an Xbox-game on a PS3 would you?

Kodfish
June 18th, 2007, 07:37 AM
Linux is not ******* Windows. Get over it.

Linux is not trying to be Windows. Get over it.

Linux is about power, flexibility, and functionality. The GUI is an addon. If you don't like the way Linux is designed, go back to windows and suck on your ******* baby bottle.

Linux is not about ease of use, simplicity or ******* graphical user interfaces. But it has the option, and the Ubuntu project helps out people. It should not seek to change Linux as we know it, but to help transition people to what Linux really is.

Sure, easy can be good, but it all of Linux is not Ubuntu.

swoll1980
June 18th, 2007, 07:49 AM
Your not alone im a noob to, my cpu runs so much smoother with linux than it did with windows i'v been at it for like a month now. it seemed overwelming for awile but every week it gets easier,and it's definantly worth it. Best part is when it comes time upgrade you don't have to fork out $300 to some money grubbing jerk

SirShaggy
June 18th, 2007, 08:00 AM
I laugh when I see these. In 2004 I wanted away from Windows at home. I had Sun Solaris at work and it was productive but boring to me. I bought a magazine talking about Linux. I downloaded 3 distros. I first tried Fedora Core. I thought wow, this is nice. I could only open and close things. Nothing else. I then tried Suse. Same thing really. I joined the forums and learned how to dual boot my laptop. I then had Fedora and Suse. I was real lost for a couple of months. I asked a bunch of questions and almost always got an answer to them. Something that never happened for me in Windows land! Anyway, I downloaded Ubuntu 5.04 and couldn't get it installed. By the time I figured out I had a bad disk, 5.10 was out so I got it. I was then triple booting! Still, I could only do a handful of things. After a good year and a half, I became more efficient. It will take me a good 5 years to feel completely comfortable and 10 to be any good. I am a slow learner after all! I use Ubuntu solely now, at home and at work. I can't imagine somebody giving up in a week. You cant even see it all in a week! You don't give up learning to walk because it is too hard or different than crawling, Why give up on something that challenges your mind? It truly is worth every second I have used Ubuntu.

SirShaggy.

DARKGuy
June 18th, 2007, 08:28 AM
I laugh when I see these. In 2004 I wanted away from Windows at home. I had Sun Solaris at work and it was productive but boring to me. I bought a magazine talking about Linux. I downloaded 3 distros. I first tried Fedora Core. I thought wow, this is nice. I could only open and close things. Nothing else. I then tried Suse. Same thing really. I joined the forums and learned how to dual boot my laptop. I then had Fedora and Suse. I was real lost for a couple of months. I asked a bunch of questions and almost always got an answer to them. Something that never happened for me in Windows land! Anyway, I downloaded Ubuntu 5.04 and couldn't get it installed. By the time I figured out I had a bad disk, 5.10 was out so I got it. I was then triple booting! Still, I could only do a handful of things. After a good year and a half, I became more efficient. It will take me a good 5 years to feel completely comfortable and 10 to be any good. I am a slow learner after all! I use Ubuntu solely now, at home and at work. I can't imagine somebody giving up in a week. You cant even see it all in a week! You don't give up learning to walk because it is too hard or different than crawling, Why give up on something that challenges your mind? It truly is worth every second I have used Ubuntu.

SirShaggy.

Huh, wow, cool story xD... your final words are the most encouraging ones, couldn't haven't been said better ;).

I also have a small fact that happened to me recently... playing UT2004 in Windows on the highest settings is fast, but it gets jerky sometimes when I pass through some areas or the game has to load something in realtime (I tried AS-MotherShip)... however, in Linux, it runs slower but flawlessly... no jerkyness whatsoever, just low framerate... no "pause" while loading stuff. Why?...

Same goes for Quake 4... in Windows I get more FPS even at high-quality but pauses when passing through doors... but in Linux in high-quality it goes slower, but no pauses... same FPS when in mid-quality compared to Windows in high-quality... curious, but I still wonder, why it does pause in Windows, if the game was made for that platform?...

Strange, but cool.

Tundro Walker
June 18th, 2007, 08:28 AM
Can't get my Nvidia Card / Flash / Adobe PDF / WMV / MP3's working! And I don't want to use CLI! This isn't the Dark Ages!

Odd...if I recall correctly, I got all this kind of stuff working by going to "(Main Menu) > Add Remove", and then finding the necessary package to dl & install. Ubuntu did the rest.

In fact, with the WMV's, I was surfing the web, tried to play one, and Ubuntu ASKED me if I wanted to install the necessary things to get it to run (and warned me that it may be restricted in some countries).

One of the few problems I desperately had was with XFCE Xubuntu not setting the DPI correctly on resolution changes, and making the font smaller and smaller. But, a quick search on the forums found a solution to that. And, when I updated to just using Ubuntu instead of Xubuntu, I didn't even have that problem with GNOME.

I'm really not sure why folks are complaining about drivers and config files. I really haven't had to touch any myself.

ukripper
June 18th, 2007, 09:21 AM
I think most windows user who couldn't get their foot in linux doors or moans a lot and just blame the whole linux world. I have only one thing to say to them - " We are not responsible for what God has given you, a bad intellect" Thank you for stopping by..

Cappy
June 18th, 2007, 10:12 AM
You know, I always wondered how this thread got so long. I thought "surely hundreds of pages of people don't post here to show their discontent" .. and now I know.

k99goran
June 18th, 2007, 11:13 AM
Then what's the problem? If anything, that is faster than clicking around all over the place to change settings. One command vs ten clicks? I think I'll take the command line, tbh.
I'm not talking about you. I'm not talking about someone who knows all the commands by heart. I am talking about new Linux users.

For example, you could fix your gui by typing 'fixgui' at the terminal.
But if you don't know the commands needed in this fixgui alias, the fact that you can make such an alias is of no help. And, if you only need to fix your gui once or maybe twice upon each installation of Linux, wouldn't it be easier to type the commands in the terminal than to create this alias?

Besides which, if we're talking about the mysterious 'average user', he/she doesn't learn how to fix their problems anyway, regardless of the OS. 9 times out of ten, it falls to 'the computer guy', or the son / daughter with the most expertise to learn how to fix said problem, and then fix said problem, in one session. Chances are, average Joe User never touches the Control Panel in Windows, or the CLI in Linux. A command is far, far easier to remember, and describe, than a sequence of clicks.
Here I tend to agree, at least to some degree. People often use the "grandma" as an example of an average user. But the "grandma" user wouldn't do any operations apart from starting applications regardless of how easy they were.
My concern however is with the user who does install applications and hardware and who I think makes up a sizable portion of the computer users.

The OS doesn't have to look and work like Windows. God knows Windows doesn't do everything right (start-menu, anyone?). But I think one should consider that most potential new Linux users are Windows users. If they are given a tutorial with a list of commands, they are more likely to just copy these commands than they are to actually learn them.

Postal service doesn't tend to carry bombs. Would you let it into your house if they shipped you a black box welded shut with no sender address?

Anything can go into a binary blob, including but not limited to

- code that causes security vulnerabilities
- code that compromises basic user rights
- code that fails to play well with existing code
- malware

and we just can't fix it when the source isn't available.
I'm all for open source drivers and software. I'm not too fond of the 196 MB file I had to download just to install printer drivers on my fathers Windows XP box (and which slowed it down), or the thousands of crippled shareware applications that never really un-installs properly. But at the same time, given an open source application I never actually check the source code to see if is fully compatible and free of malware, so I have no real use for the source code.

k99goran
June 18th, 2007, 11:37 AM
Sorry, but this doesn't wash. If you don't want to learn, don't bother trying something new. Do you also think that someone who has always driven cars with an automatic transmission should be able to get behind the wheel of a car with a standard transmission and simply drive without learning some new skills?

When you switch OSes, there is a learning curve. Get over it.
It would be sorry state of affairs for Ubuntu if the developers held the same kind of attitude. Most people are used to GUIs and not command prompts, and find that way of operating a computer much more intuitive. From my own perspective, I would love to see a Linux distribution succeed in terms of market share as that gives a better incentive for hardware and software manufacturers to support Linux. But in that case, you have to realize that you don't have a lot of leeway to make big demands on new users.

fyllekajan
June 18th, 2007, 11:54 AM
now there's learning curves and there's learning curves.. it's not easy to learn an old windows dog new tricks unless he wants to ;) ubuntu is becoming more and more user friendly all the time, maybe it becomes more windows user friendly too

23meg
June 18th, 2007, 12:18 PM
But at the same time, given an open source application I never actually check the source code to see if is fully compatible and free of malware, so I have no real use for the source code.

Multiple independent developers and testers check it for you, so you reap the benefits of openness indirectly.

Tomosaur
June 18th, 2007, 12:32 PM
I'm not talking about you. I'm not talking about someone who knows all the commands by heart. I am talking about new Linux users.


And herein lies the irony of your argument: I was once a new user. I have only been using Linux for around 2 years (and, when I started using Ubuntu, it was less user friendly than it is now. In fact, it didn't even detect much of my hardware correctly, and I had to set up the GUI completely manually). I didn't come here 'just knowing' all I do now. I came from a solely Windows background, with all its GUI clickery, and the CLI of Linux didn't put me off at all. If anything, I found the CLI easier to use, easier to remember, and generally more useful than the various tools Windows offers. I came to Linux with an open mind, accepting that I'd have to re-learn pretty much everything I had learned to do in Windows. That is pretty much all it takes. The new users who complain about Linux' 'difficulties' are generally the users who know a lot about Windows, and are used to it. I was in a position where I was already pissed off with Windows before I even tried Linux for the first time, despite being 'used' to Windows and knowing how to tweak and fiddle with it.

insane_alien
June 18th, 2007, 12:33 PM
windows is harder than ubuntu.

i tried to teach my uncle to use windows, failed miserably. every day their would be some problem.

i loaded a live CD to fix a problem(he got a virus that trashed his filesystem) i went to pee and he was surfing the net with the liveCD. now, the thing that surprised me here was that i was never called upon for assistance. i installed ubuntu on his PC and since then i have been called a grand total of twice in 3 months.

once because he forgot his password(i then set it so he didn't need one.) and another time because it wouldn't turn on.(some cables at the back had came out when he pulled the desk out a bit.

nothing serious.

raul_
June 18th, 2007, 01:12 PM
You know, I always wondered how this thread got so long. I thought "surely hundreds of pages of people don't post here to show their discontent" .. and now I know.

This thread is long because many threads are "appended" to this one. They all talk about the same thing. If you're paying attention, you'll notice that some thread titles are different ;)

Cappy
June 18th, 2007, 01:14 PM
I know ;) One of the threads I posted to got moved here

forrestcupp
June 18th, 2007, 01:19 PM
The GUI vs. CLI debate is ridiculous. The devs are starting to realize the need to put everything in a GUI, and the CLI will always be there. So when they get around to getting everything in a GUI, everyone will be happy, and there should be no need to argue.

vexorian
June 19th, 2007, 03:28 PM
- The mailing lists: They are the worst thing to ever happen to you if you are googleing for information regarding whatever, they are very plain, and awfully hard to navigate. Why can't they just use a forum? Seriously...

- Python : nuff said.

- It won't work with my scanner: I am afraid I will eventually have to boot on windows in order to use the scanner, that would be awful.

- Emblems I add to topcoder's competition arena Java web start dekstop element are lost each time I double click it.

- gnome minesweeper is too shiny and messy-looking, that it is unplayable, WINE minesweeper got a bunch of green tones, I have gone to the limit of having to use winmine.exe in order to play minesweeper!!!!111

- In order to distribute programs I got to use make files, or automake/autoconf, all of them are very hard to use and involve using such a super obscure language as that TCL thing.

- The weather widget made me realize I live in an ultra cold city.

That's it.

starcraft.man
June 19th, 2007, 03:36 PM
Uh oh... Not another one. *Dives into the nearest Protoss Bunker* You won't take me alive!

Seriously, I'm not even gonna bother.

vexorian
June 19th, 2007, 03:42 PM
protoss bunker?

Are you really starcraft.man or an imposter?

23meg
June 19th, 2007, 03:44 PM
- The mailing lists: They are the worst thing to ever happen to you if you are googleing for information regarding whatever, they are very plain, and awfully hard to navigate. Why can't they just use a forum? Seriously...

Forums are very inefficient for development. Here's a relevant discussion:

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=322792

Znupi
June 19th, 2007, 03:46 PM
- Python : nuff said.
That's the only thing that bothers me. What? What's wrong with Python?

vexorian
June 19th, 2007, 03:47 PM
Forums got RSS support, thus if they want to be waken up automatically instead of they hanging on the forums they could just use the RSS feed.

Persianelfster
June 19th, 2007, 03:50 PM
You can probably find a way intsall your scanner ya know, make take a while, but im sure its possible

fjf
June 19th, 2007, 03:53 PM
When you do an image to a different drive, grub is all messed up and it is REALLY hard to fix for a newbie.

starcraft.man
June 19th, 2007, 03:54 PM
protoss bunker?

Are you really starcraft.man or an imposter?

Ok, smarty pants, I know there wasn't really a bunker (http://www.battle.net/scc/terran/bbuild.shtml) for the Protoss... (http://www.battle.net/scc/protoss/bbuild.shtml) the Terrans had it in the original. I wasn't about to dive into a Terran bunker though (reference to protection from flames), consider it creative license. :p

Anyway, I wonder why I'm even responding... out I go for good this time.

Persianelfster
June 19th, 2007, 03:57 PM
Starcraft 2 looks good, wonder if it wil be as good as the orginal though =/

bapoumba
June 19th, 2007, 04:05 PM
Couple more threads merged.

vexorian
June 19th, 2007, 04:20 PM
I don't know, considering they are developers they could just keep the mailing list but made them easier to browse from the web, the current interface is very bad and the maling list somehow always get a better rank than other sites.

prizrak
June 19th, 2007, 06:00 PM
Starcraft 2 looks good, wonder if it wil be as good as the orginal though =/
Not if it goes the way of Warcraft 3. Man I HATED that game :(

vexorian
June 19th, 2007, 06:05 PM
That game was fun although some guys kept ruining it by requesting blizz to make it more like SC

DARKGuy
June 19th, 2007, 07:34 PM
Not if it goes the way of Warcraft 3. Man I HATED that game :(

The single player part wasn't ANY bad... online is a whole different thing :(

But DoTA rlz xD

prizrak
June 19th, 2007, 07:44 PM
The single player part wasn't ANY bad... online is a whole different thing :(

But DoTA rlz xD

Hated the single too.

DARKGuy
June 19th, 2007, 07:48 PM
Hated the single too.

Oh well, to each their own!

I didn't like it too much in the start... too... un-warcraft-y (I played it since the first one in MS-DOS :P) buuuut it feels good to play it after playing some WoW... been curious about what happened before :P

prizrak
June 20th, 2007, 02:12 PM
Oh well, to each their own!

I didn't like it too much in the start... too... un-warcraft-y (I played it since the first one in MS-DOS :P) buuuut it feels good to play it after playing some WoW... been curious about what happened before :P

Hehe, I love the old DOS WC games they ruled. Especially the random stuff those things would say :)

argie
June 20th, 2007, 03:34 PM
Hehe, I love the old DOS WC games they ruled. Especially the random stuff those things would say :)

They say those things even in Starcraft and in Warcraft III too, just keep clicking on them. Pretty hilarious stuff.

raja
June 20th, 2007, 04:34 PM
I'm primarily an OSX/Windows user, but I've used Ubuntu on the side for some time. Here are my main gripes with linux:



Please read this - http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=58017&highlight=anatomy+troll.

prizrak
June 20th, 2007, 05:37 PM
They say those things even in Starcraft and in Warcraft III too, just keep clicking on them. Pretty hilarious stuff.

True but it was the first game like that for me. Before that I used to play Dune II and that didn't have those effects. My problem with WC III was all the RPG elements, I'm not a fan (to put it mildly) of RPG's.

livewire94
June 20th, 2007, 09:31 PM
After reinstalling XP I finally got to check my replies. Oh, and by the way everything installs without a headache in xp.

I didn't start my thread to let everyone know why Im leaving and causing people to flame. I just thought new users may want to know that if they think Linux is going to be easy to goto from Windows, its not. You have to learn a lot of terminal commands to install and configure things. I was learning the commands but found out quickly that some of my hardware will not work on Linux. Some of the hardware installs but doesn't work right. Also all your favoirite Windows programs do not work in Linux using Wine, I tried. Example: If you like the new Yahoo Messenger with voice and video conferencing, it only works in Windows.

I suppose Linux is good if all your hardware and software works in it and I do hope that it gets better in the future.

Ultra Magnus
June 20th, 2007, 10:40 PM
If you chose any of the above then there are no operating systems that are ready for the desktop - not even vista or os x

vexorian
June 21st, 2007, 04:04 AM
How about : "Windows and nothing else... not even Mac OS X"

prizrak
June 21st, 2007, 02:10 PM
After reinstalling XP I finally got to check my replies. Oh, and by the way everything installs without a headache in xp.

I didn't start my thread to let everyone know why Im leaving and causing people to flame. I just thought new users may want to know that if they think Linux is going to be easy to goto from Windows, its not. You have to learn a lot of terminal commands to install and configure things. I was learning the commands but found out quickly that some of my hardware will not work on Linux. Some of the hardware installs but doesn't work right. Also all your favoirite Windows programs do not work in Linux using Wine, I tried. Example: If you like the new Yahoo Messenger with voice and video conferencing, it only works in Windows.

I suppose Linux is good if all your hardware and software works in it and I do hope that it gets better in the future.

It's called doing research. I have not had a single hardware issue with my Linux installs. I installed it on a few computers that were not bought with anything but Windows in mind and it all worked perfectly. The current laptop was bought after some amount of research and it also works perfectly. The only issue is suspend/hibernate doesn't work but it's not something I use so I don't actually care.

I find there is very little "have to have" software that does not have an alternative in Linux. If video conferencing is important to you then yes Linux is not a very good platform for it.

You are doing a couple of things wrong basically:
1) The tone of your post is very unfriendly.
2) You didn't do any research, switching an OS is a fairly major thing. If you were to go buy Vista you would make sure your computer can run it, why is Ubuntu different? You had a LiveCD that you could have tried out without installing Ubuntu at all and know if things work.
3) You assume (remember what they say about that) that all other newbies are going to be like that. Lots of people here did their research, knew their hardware and software needs, tried out the LiveCD and only then took the plunge.
4) You are assuming that it will not work well with any hardware configurations. Your little "I have to learn terminal" things are indicative of that. There are thousands (if not millions) of hardware configurations out there and it will work flawlessly on a good number of them.

I'm sorry Ubuntu haven't worked out for you, WebCam support is a problem that has been somewhat rectified by a French hacker who wrote drivers for 235 of them but..... I suggest next time you are out shopping for a system do some research and get hardware that will work with Linux. After all you won't be risking anything as all of it will have Windows drivers but you will always have an option of installing Linux on it.

fyllekajan
June 21st, 2007, 03:16 PM
It's called doing research.
Amen to that. Always make sure that the hardware you are going to buy is 100% Linux compatible if you want to run Linux.

ukripper
June 21st, 2007, 03:27 PM
After reinstalling XP I finally got to check my replies. Oh, and by the way everything installs without a headache in xp.

I didn't start my thread to let everyone know why Im leaving and causing people to flame. I just thought new users may want to know that if they think Linux is going to be easy to goto from Windows, its not. You have to learn a lot of terminal commands to install and configure things. I was learning the commands but found out quickly that some of my hardware will not work on Linux. Some of the hardware installs but doesn't work right. Also all your favoirite Windows programs do not work in Linux using Wine, I tried. Example: If you like the new Yahoo Messenger with voice and video conferencing, it only works in Windows.

I suppose Linux is good if all your hardware and software works in it and I do hope that it gets better in the future.

No idea what you chatting about mate, I use yahoo messenger with webcam + voice also skype with all its features. Shame that it didn't work out for you or probably dont want to try i guess. Well you should get a petition signed against all Hardware manufacturers who don't support linux- How about that? Issue is not Linux or ubuntu, it is your liking towards windows.

sasanf
June 21st, 2007, 06:10 PM
Introduction:

I have written this essay in the spirit of collaboration and contribution. Canonical, the Ubuntu community, GNOME, and the GNOME community are doing a superb job in tuning Linux to be suitable for use by the average computer user (grandpa/grandma user).

Note: Linux is, in this essay, an all encompassing word for GNU/Linux and all open source software.

Background:

I am a network administrator. I support 200+ grandpa/grandma users. I have come to understand, over the years, what the grandpa/grandma user wants and how he/she thinks.

Microsoft and Apple:

Canonical/GNOME (Linux) must strive to do everything that Microsoft and Apple do right and not do everything that Microsoft and Apple do wrong.

One:

GNOME, KDE, XFCE, Enlightenment, etc. Why are there so many different projects to provide Linux with a desktop environment? Philosophical differences, ego, choice, etc? What if all the people that work on GNOME, KDE, XFCE, Enlightenment, etc. work together to make ONE Linux Desktop Environment? What would happen?
Audacity, LMMS, muSe, Rosegarden. What if all the people that work on Audacity, LMMS, muSe, Rosegarden work together to make ONE Linux Music Studio? What would happen?
What if there was just ONE feature rich and aesthetically pleasing application; ONE application with a simple and linear work flow for every vertical market?
“Where there is a will there is a way.” Does Linux have the will to unify? As long as Linux remains divided, Linux can not compete against the power and influence that Microsoft currently has over the market. Microsoft is Goliath. Linux is David.
I have come to understand that the reason there are so many different projects that perform the same exact function is because so many people disagree. I have learned that it is all about positives and negatives. When I want to make a major decision, I list out all the positive consequences and negative consequences that will arise from the choice. If there are more negative consequences than positive, the choice is not the right one to make. I concede that there is an exception to every rule; but I believe the exceptions come rarely. I believe that if the members of the Linux community utilize the “positives/negatives” philosophy and practice the behaviors stated below, the Linux community will be able to work together more efficiently.

1.Embrace both logic and emotion equally. Do not be drunk with logic and do not be drunk with emotion.
2.Be an active listener.
3.Try to prove yourself wrong and the other guy right.

The Unix philosophy is to create ONE program that performs ONE function and performs that ONE function well.
Having too many programs that perform the same function means the wheel is being reinvented over and over again. In essence, it is a complete waste of time and talent. Having too many programs that perform the same function does not equal choice. It equals dispersion and division which ultimately leads to confusion and destruction. Too many choices can be just as bad as too little. Too much of a good thing is a bad thing. Too much salt in one's diet will cause high blood pressure; yet, one cannot live without salt.
While on the topic of choice, KDE's philosophy is to give the user a lot of choice and GNOME philosophy is sacrificing giving the user a lot of choice for giving the user simplicity. Einstein said, “Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler.” KDE and GNOME can learn a lot from what Einstein said.

Note: Linux has enough on it's hands competing against Microsoft and Apple; it doesn't need to compete with itself. Sadly, at the present time, Linux is competing against itself more than it is competing with Microsoft or Apple. Linux is it's own worst enemy.

WINE:

Does WINE make Linux a cheap imitation of Windows? No! WINE makes Ubuntu/GNOME (Linux) user-conscious. WINE makes Ubuntu/GNOME (Linux) market friendly. WINE makes Ubuntu/GNOME (Linux) feature complete. WINE gives Ubuntu/GNOME (Linux) compatibility. Canonical should support the WINE project in developing WINE.
Fruity Loops is an excellent music studio application. How can Canonical get the hundreds of thousands of loyal Fruity Loops users to switch from Windows to Ubuntu? WINE! Fruity Loops is only made for Windows. Image Line has a great purchasing structure. Buy Fruity Loops once and get free updates and upgrades for the version you bought for as long as Image Line develops the product. In my opinion, this is fair. Everyone has to eat; the people at Image Line produce a masterful product and charge a fair price for it.
Linux should do everything to ensure that its beliefs are not trampled on. Linux also should let go of the ideology that all software that runs on Linux has to be open source and free. Linux should strive to provide free, open source, and high quality software for every vertical market; in the mean time, commercial and closed source software should be welcomed by Linux. It should be the user's choice on whether or not they want to run commercial and closed source software on their Linux system. The choice does not belong to the Free Software Foundation, Canonical, GNOME, or anyone else. Finally, drivers should not have to be open source. What good is an operating system if it won't run on the users hardware? What good is an operating system that can't harness the true power of a piece of hardware because the driver that exists for it isn't from the manufacturer and is low quality? If a manufacturer wants to make open source drivers, that is fine; if it doesn't, then Linux should still welcome their drivers.
Again, Linux should do everything to ensure that its beliefs are not trampled on; Linux also needs to compromise when it is the right time to compromise.

Organization:

As I stated above, Linux should do everything Microsoft and Apple do right; don't do everything Microsoft and Apple do wrong.
Ubuntu/GNOME (Linux) should utilize the Panel more effectively. The GNOME (Linux) Control Center and the Suse GNOME (Linux) Application Manger are great organizational tools. When a user opens the Control Center, he or she can on the left panel click on Look and Feel and on the right panel every application that effects how Ubuntu/GNOME (Linux) looks and feels is highlighted. When a user opens the Application Manager, he or she can on the left panel click on Internet and on the right panel every application that is for the Internet is highlighted.
Ubuntu/GNOME (Linux) shouldn't have a menu launcher that mimics the Windows Start menu; a Menu Bar or Menu Launcher is what makes Ubuntu/GNOME (Linux) a cheap imitation of Windows. The Windows Start Menu is cluttered and has a horrible work flow. Click on Start, click on Programs, Click on Fruity Loops Folder, Click on Fruity Loops Launcher. The more programs that are installed the more cluttered and disorganized it becomes.
The Ubuntu/GNOME (Linux) Panel/Dock should, by default, have the Show Desktop launcher, Control Center launcher, Application Manager launcher, Terminal launcher, File Browser launcher, Help launcher, Trash launcher, and the Shut Off/Log Off launcher. The arrangement gives the user access to every non- administrative and administrative application in an organized and linear manner. From within the Application Manager and the Control Center, The user should be able to right click on the launchers for applications that he or she uses frequently and add them to the panel. The Panel can also be 40 pixels in height by default. 40 pixels is a good default height for visibility and aesthetics.
The Panel/Dock can serve as a replacement for the System Tray and Notification Area. Items that normally appear in the System Tray can be placed on the Panel. An analog clock or digital clock can be on the panel (widget/desklet form). To traditionally display the system time, it can be made part of the context menu that opens when the mouse right click is pressed on the Desktop or the Title Bar of an open application. A Notification icon can also be on the Panel. The Task Bar can become the Task List (Container) by placing an Up Arrow button on the right side or left side of the Panel/Dock (similar to the Show/Hide Arrows of the Panel/Dock) that when clicked displays and gives access to all minimized applications. The right click context menu that opens when a user clicks on the Title Bar of a maximized window can be programed to tag into the Task List to display and give access to all minimized applications. Managing minimized applications via an Up Arrow button and/or the right click will free up at least 23 pixels of screen real estate (minimum height of a second panel to hold Task Bar). It will also give Ubuntu/GNOME (Linux) a more streamlined look and feel.

Eye Candy:

Ubuntu/Gnomes default look does not measure up when compared to OSX and Vista. The Controls, Window Borders, and Icons in Ubuntu/Gnome need a lot of work. This is one area where Ubuntu/Gnome needs to mimic and revolutionize what Apple and Microsoft have done. The grandpa/grandma user doesn't want to spend three days customizing their desktop. They wouldn't even know where to begin. Grandpa/grandma users are expecting a default look similar to or better than OSX, XP, and now Vista. Grandpa/grandma users want an OS that is ready to use out of the box. They don't want to tinker.

Mind Candy:

Too many distributions means a confused grandpa/grandma. All the non-commercial distros should close shop and rally behind Ubuntu. You want David to win don't you?
Weird application names. K3B! What does K3B do? I may be an idiot but what does K3B have to do with CD/DVD burning? Firefox Browser... mind candy. It is imperative for you to think communication. It is also imperative to keep marketing in mind. Don't expect people to meet you where you are at. Meet people where they are at. Christ didn't win the hearts of many by saying, if you don't get what I mean then you're an idiot. Mohandis didn't either.
Why install Bluetooth software when my laptop isn't Bluetooth enabled? I've installed GNOME and KDE using Ubuntu, Kubuntu, and Suse. Why is there Bluetooth software installed when my laptop is not Bluetooth enabled? That confuses me. My system has software on it that is absolutely useless. Why do I need any Internet software other than a browser, email client, instant messenger, dialer, and maybe a torrent client? This is not clean and pristine. It is nothing but clutter and only has the ultimate result of confusing users. Why do I need Openoffice.org Writer and Text Editor? OpenOffice.org has all the functionality I need; why have a second program to save files as a text file or html file? Again, this is unnecessarily cluttered and confusing. Linux is not Microsoft trying to make the poor sap who paid $200 for an OS that comes with nothing feel like he or she has gotten something by giving him or her Notepad/Wordpad.

GNOME Vs. KDE:

Which is better? They both have their strengths and weaknesses. The two should work together and create One Linux Desktop Environment. What I like about GNOME is that it is simple to use. What I don't like about GNOME is that there isn't enough control. What I like about KDE is that there is control. What I don't like about KDE is that there is much unnecessary control (too many settings) and too many programs (too cluttered). I also like how GNOME is incorporating function into the desktop environment. For example, instead of having a CD/DVD burning GUI/APP such as K3B, GNOME allows me to right click on the icon of a CD/DVD I've placed into my DVD-ROM drive and choose to copy it. The dialog that opens gives me the choice to burn it to another CD/DVD or make an image copy of it. I also like the fact that I can put a blank CD/DVD into my DVD-ROM drive, open it, paste what I want to burn to it, and then click on Write to Disc. Designing the desktop environment as the application environment for all program is a great idea (when it is feasible for the desktop environment to be the application environment (aesthetically pleasing GUI) for a program) .

kamaboko
June 21st, 2007, 06:19 PM
If you're a real die hard Linux fan then you'll never use Wine or Cross Over Office. In fact, you won't use anything that needs a MS platform.

LaRoza
June 21st, 2007, 06:19 PM
The Unix philosophy is to create ONE program that performs ONE function and performs that ONE function well.

This is not the Linux philosophy. The beauty of Linux is about choices. Some distros come with only one app per function and some come with many.

Linux doesn't "compete" at all, it just changes and evolves and some distros are more popular.

Linux is made up of a very large number of programmers, they can't all work on the same project.

The average user is not a grand parent.

The large number of apps and desktop environments is the reason that the terminal is so popular, it is universal.

LaRoza
June 21st, 2007, 06:20 PM
You make it sound like that GNOME and KDE are the only choices! There is something for everyone. Instead of limiting users, we all have many choices. If they were combined, as you suggest, there would be another desktop environment to choose from, which I don't think is what you had in mind.

As for naming apps, they are the choices of the owner, or creator, of the program. I wrote a program and I named it PyTree, what should I have named it? It creates a document that graphically shows the contents of a directory.

maddog39
June 21st, 2007, 06:21 PM
Well from my first impression, i think that you are totally mislead by the diversity in linux. We arent really separated at all. Linux and Open Source in general is all about choice, and people have many different opinions on which desktop environment or window manager they use which creates debates such as GNOME vs. KDE which really boils down to which fits you best. Neither is better nor worse really.

See, what ubuntu does is they have GNOME for their primary version, and they did that for a good reason. Since GNOME strides to be as simple and easy to use as possible and their focus was to target beginner users, it was the most logical choice. But at the same time they also wanted to provide atleast some choice, which then spawned the Kubuntu and Xubuntu projects, but they kept them separate from the main Ubuntu project, so that the user wasnt presented with 3 choices during installation possibly causing confusion. But rather, after the fact, once they've learned the difference, they'd have the choice to move to a different DE.

sasanf
June 21st, 2007, 06:45 PM
Grandpa/Grandma is a methaphor. Also, these are ideas and suggestions. When it comes down to it Microsoft and Apple are winning. Reality is reality. In a few months I have to choose between buying a Dell laptop wit Ubuntu installed or Vista. Which choice do you think I'm going to make. Vista! I have compatibility with software that my school will require me to use and I can run Fruity Loops on it. I bought a Panasonic HDTV and then took it back because I spent over two hours configuring it. I bought a cheaper HDTV that only took me 10 minutes. My brother who works for Bose was helping me configure the Panasonic. Do you get my point? Linux must adapt to reality not expect reality to adapt to it.

dca
June 21st, 2007, 06:50 PM
It's still comparing apples & nipples...

Even though Mark Shuttleworth dumped tons of money into Canonical, they make a fantastic product that I've used personally and also on high-powered hardware. I prefer it to other OS(s) and other Linux' to boot!

That said, it will never be like Windows. Not because of all the inherent flaws with Windows on a security level, etc, etc but because they don't have billions and billions of dollars to pump into R&D and programming a 'la MS does. I don't bother with the 'it would be better if...' arguments. GNU/Linux as a community is not designed that way. In other words, I can fiddle my way around any OS and have in my line of work: Unix, Windows, etc. However,the things I would like to make better and change, I can't. I have no idea how to program or write a better network manager tool for Posix compliant systems. GNU/Linux has twenty different desktop environments that can run on 'X' because they can.

Heck, we need to write as much code as we can, garbage or not before Google assimilates all out best programmers and Linux hackers!

I've always looked at Linux as the kernel and the core (GNU) utilities it takes to install a non-GUI headless server. Everything else, is a plus: The ability to install on an old PC w/ multiple desktop environments, the ability to NOT pay one red cent for it, the ability to web browse via Firefox, Opera, Konquerer, etc...

DirtDawg
June 21st, 2007, 06:50 PM
ZZZzzzzzzz.....

azurehi
June 21st, 2007, 06:52 PM
This is not the Linux philosophy. The beauty of Linux is about choices. Some distros come with only one app per function and some come with many.

Linux doesn't "compete" at all, it just changes and evolves and some distros are more popular.

Linux is made up of a very large number of programmers, they can't all work on the same project.

The average user is not a grand parent.

The large number of apps and desktop environments is the reason that the terminal is so popular, it is universal.

I greatly enjoy the variety in linux. As a relative newcomer of six months, I have crashed my computer many times in "learning" about partitioning. For linux to become "mainstream" someone/organization will need to incorporate in a distro what windoze/mac do completely upon install, IMHO. Ubuntu works well for me but only after I installed automatix2, "making" me "untrue" to how some see linux. I use linux/ubuntu for entertainment and wanted an "easy" way to drop xp and, yet, do what xp does.


Describing the advantages of linux to a windoze/mac user is frustrating because the average user, old/young/whatever, wants something that "just works" and will pay to get it. I once tried xandros oce but found it lacking - then the m$ agreement and then lin$pire. Will Shuttleworth continue with CNR? Will Dell bring linux to the forefront? Will "mainstream" linux ever happen? Be free? Is it even needed?

Fenryr
June 21st, 2007, 06:53 PM
GNOME, KDE, XFCE, Enlightenment, etc. Why are there so many different projects to provide Linux with a desktop environment? Philosophical differences, ego, choice, etc? What if all the people that work on GNOME, KDE, XFCE, Enlightenment, etc. work together to make ONE Linux Desktop Environment? What would happen?
Audacity, LMMS, muSe, Rosegarden. What if all the people that work on Audacity, LMMS, muSe, Rosegarden work together to make ONE Linux Music Studio? What would happen?
What if there was just ONE feature rich and aesthetically pleasing application; ONE application with a simple and linear work flow for every vertical market?



What would happen? Simple...MICRO$OFT....Linux is not ONE David, it is a LEGION of Davids...And THAT is the whole POINT of the exercise...

vexorian
June 21st, 2007, 06:53 PM
Should GNU/Linux do what MS and apple do well? Yes. Agreed.

Should GNU/Linux avoid what MS and apple do wrong? Bingo! It is exactly because of this some of your points are just in my opinion bad suggestions, There shouldn't be ONE desktop, there shouldn't be ONE window manager, there shouldn't be ONE distro. Linux is all about choices and it is the "I shouldn't choose" mentality what allows big companies/governments/etc to choose for us. It is very hard to choose but that doesn't mean we shouldn't choose, choosing is a right not a punishment.

Organization: Linux is already much better than windows, and very different to windows, I don't think it is cheaply imitating windos, I find it extremely different, besides thanks the the fact there is choice available people can move and organize stuff the way they like, because there is not a perfect way to do it that will make everyone happy and they will never be, because of this gnome and KDE are already good at this since the flexibility they allow is awesome.

WINE: WINE makes Linux a cheap windows clone, and makes people to expect that Linux SHOULD run all windows apps, which besides of being impossible is just a lame thing to do, as you said we shouldn't make the mistakes they do, and I think that promoting executables that only work in one platform else need emulation or layers and a lot of work to port is something they have done wrong.

Eye candy: Let's stop this madness, Vista and Mac OS/X are in no way the ultimate eye candy demonstration, let's stop saying linux should mimic them.

Of course there is room for improvement and it will be improved, there is no need to ask for better eye candy, it will happen, and if someone does have good ideas, please make a theme and let people test it, it will inspire distro makers to change their ways.

Again, gnome is beautiful once you customize it to the max, and it is possible to , It is IMPOSSIBLE to make a theme that will please everyone.

--


Mind Candy:

Too many distributions means a confused grandpa/grandma. All the non-commercial distros should close shop and rally behind Ubuntu. You want David to win don't you?
Weird application names. K3B! What does K3B do? I may be an idiot but what does K3B have to do with CD/DVD burning? Firefox Browser... mind candy. It is imperative for you to think communication. It is also imperative to keep marketing in mind. Don't expect people to meet you where you are at. Meet people where they are at. Christ didn't win the hearts of many by saying, if you don't get what I mean then you're an idiot. Mohandis didn't either.
Why install Bluetooth software when my laptop isn't Bluetooth enabled? I've installed GNOME and KDE using Ubuntu, Kubuntu, and Suse. Why is there Bluetooth software installed when my laptop is not Bluetooth enabled? That confuses me. My system has software on it that is absolutely useless. Why do I need any Internet software other than a browser, email client, instant messenger, dialer, and maybe a torrent client? This is not clean and pristine. It is nothing but clutter and only has the ultimate result of confusing users. Why do I need Openoffice.org Writer and Text Editor? OpenOffice.org has all the functionality I need; why have a second program to save files as a text file or html file? Again, this is unnecessarily cluttered and confusing. Linux is not Microsoft trying to make the poor sap who paid $200 for an OS that comes with nothing feel like he or she has gotten something by giving him or her Notepad/Wordpad.

Sorry but I must disagree with everything in this paragraph, first of all the menus often say "K3B Cd burner" , "Firefox Internet browser", And talking about MS mistakes, calling a browser "Internet Explorer" is just the utlimate move to unnamed aps that try to become standard. They are just names, believe me, grandpa and grandma don't care.

Bluetooth software is installed, because you might need it, it is not like it takes 4 GB or half of the resolution space.

If you think some pieces of software are useless, remove them. Ubuntu installer will just pick the software most people use because it wants to be easy to install.

Calling it clutter is a total over statement.

And for god's sake, you are NOT going to edit textfiles using open office.org, and gEdit got syntax highlighting... if you ever want to edit a .desktop file it will be much better than open office. And it doesn't take 10GB either. And you don't want OO.o to tell you that conf file is full of spelling mistakes...

dca
June 21st, 2007, 06:54 PM
ZZZzzzzzzz.....

Indeed, the bottom line if all of this came to fruition: one DE, one this, the best of this for that then you'd probably have one more Microsoft. That's what programming turns into. Heck, a lot of programmers out there are waiting for a chance (or big break) to create that one good app that can sky-rocket them into licensing fee purchases, residuals, and support contracts.

amlucent23
June 21st, 2007, 06:59 PM
While i agree with some of your points, i would strangle someone if they got rid of my gedit for oowriter. One is handy for word processing and one is handy for coding... think about it

kamaboko
June 21st, 2007, 07:07 PM
Heck, a lot of programmers out there are waiting for a chance (or big break) to create that one good app that can sky-rocket them into licensing fee purchases, residuals, and support contracts.

Exactly. No programmer is going to save their best, most brilliant idea and chuck it out there as a freebie. "I worked on this idea for five years. I slaved over it in the evenings after my day job. I knew it was revolutionary...and....it's yours for free". :lolflag:

igknighted
June 21st, 2007, 07:15 PM
@ the OP:

You completely miss the point. Linux does not exist to make money or to build a larger user base like other OS's. It exists to be the best. The funny thing about being "the best" is that every one describes it differently. Therefor, linux needs CHOICE first and foremost in order to be the best. Take gnome and KDE for example. They share code and work together on many things, but in the end they produce a different product because their vision of "the best" DE is very different. And this is a good thing. Without things like this happening, Linux would just be another also-ran. Instead it has a character of its own.

Also, please do not write as if Ubuntu/gnome is any sort of be-all, end-all of linux. They are good pieces of software, and maybe "the best" for you, but to many they are not the best. Choice again. Writing like this that ignores the rest of the linux world (or places them as second class) is common around here, and needs to stop.

Sweet Mercury
June 21st, 2007, 07:21 PM
What would happen? Simple...MICRO$OFT....Linux is not ONE David, it is a LEGION of Davids...And THAT is the whole POINT of the exercise...

Plus, didn't David win all by himself anyway?

forrestcupp
June 21st, 2007, 07:24 PM
What if Logic Audio, Cubase, n-Track Studio, Sony Acid, Cakewalk, Sound Forge, and a plethora of other Windows audio software companies worked together to make one killer app?

It's not just Linux, man. It's the way the world works. There will always be competition and choices.

LaRoza
June 21st, 2007, 07:24 PM
I greatly enjoy the variety in linux. As a relative newcomer of six months, I have crashed my computer many times in "learning" about partitioning. For linux to become "mainstream" someone/organization will need to incorporate in a distro what windoze/mac do completely upon install, IMHO. Ubuntu works well for me but only after I installed automatix2, "making" me "untrue" to how some see linux. I use linux/ubuntu for entertainment and wanted an "easy" way to drop xp and, yet, do what xp does.


Describing the advantages of linux to a windoze/mac user is frustrating because the average user, old/young/whatever, wants something that "just works" and will pay to get it. I once tried xandros oce but found it lacking - then the m$ agreement and then lin$pire. Will Shuttleworth continue with CNR? Will Dell bring linux to the forefront? Will "mainstream" linux ever happen? Be free? Is it even needed?

Installing Windows is more frustrating than installing Ubuntu. As to "just works", if an OS were preinstalled and configured, it would be easy. For example, people have trouble with the installation process sometimes, they moan about it being difficult, but if someone does it for them, and gets everything working, the user magically stops complaining.

I installed a more difficult to use distro, Zenwalk, on a man's computer and he is happy with it. Why? Because I did all the work, and showed him how to do what he wants. If he never worked in a command line, and didn't have enough knowledge of partitions and file systems, which he didn't, he would never have gotten the OS installed.

Windows has made users lazy, they cannot do anything for themselves, and expect everything to "just work", NOTHING "just works", it has to be made to work, but by whom is the question.

LaRoza
June 21st, 2007, 07:32 PM
Why install Bluetooth software when my laptop isn't Bluetooth enabled?

Because if it weren't, a user with a Bluetooth enabled laptop wouldn't work.

Are you expecting everyone to need the same apps and capabilities? First you expect everything to be the same, then you want it different.

dca
June 21st, 2007, 07:35 PM
Good point: 'Just works' means going to the BestBuy and buying an HP w/ Windows pre-installed...


...or maybe a Dell w/ Ubuntu pre-installed... :D

LaRoza
June 21st, 2007, 07:50 PM
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=480485 Just found...

sasanf
June 21st, 2007, 08:18 PM
Please read the essay carefully. I didn't want to write a book. Read between the lines. I couldn't tackle every single detail. That would of taken a book. I am not saying take the choice away. I'm saying don't put so much salt on your fries that you die of a heart attack! I'm pointing out what I know. I love Linux. I want to use Linux on my Workstation, Work Laptop, and future personal laptop. At the moment, I can't. And Linux is about making money just like Microsoft and Apple. If it wasn't for companies like Canonical, Sun, IBM, Red Hat, Novell, Linux would not be where it is at. Anyway, I can't give a rebuttal for every post. Just please read the essay soberly and carefully. My point is between the lines.

blah blah blah
June 21st, 2007, 08:19 PM
Windows has made users lazy, they cannot do anything for themselves, and expect everything to "just work", NOTHING "just works", it has to be made to work, but by whom is the question.

That's not true at all. Thoughts like that only prevent progress. Computers can be made to do anything provided the time, space, and instructions. The only thing stopping them from doing trivial tasks is us humans.

sasanf
June 21st, 2007, 08:20 PM
No! David won with God.

blah blah blah
June 21st, 2007, 08:21 PM
And Linux is about making money just like Microsoft and Apple. If it wasn't for companies like Canonical, Sun, IBM, Red Hat, Novell, Linux would not be where it is at.

This is very true.

sasanf
June 21st, 2007, 08:43 PM
I agree. The OpenOffice.org Writer example was a bad one. The point is that if something is unnecessary it is unecessary.

Foxmike
June 21st, 2007, 08:53 PM
WOW! I decided to answer you before reading replies so then I don't get biased by what other users may have answered to you. Be aware that english is not my native speaking so if there is something unclear, please tell me and I will make all the necessary efforts to make myself understood.

So if you do not mind, I will take your post piece by piece and tell you where I do agree and where I do not agree.


Canonical/GNOME (Linux) must strive to do everything that Microsoft and Apple do right and not do everything that Microsoft and Apple do wrong.


I do not agree here. Linux must strive to do things HIS way. That might look like Mac way sometimes, and might look like MS way sometimes but this is more a coincidence than an attempt of imitating other OSes. There is generally more than 2 ways of doing things. Why not trying to do things better?


GNOME, KDE, XFCE, Enlightenment, etc. Why are there so many different projects to provide Linux with a desktop environment? Philosophical differences, ego, choice, etc? What if all the people that work on GNOME, KDE, XFCE, Enlightenment, etc. work together to make ONE Linux Desktop Environment? What would happen?
Audacity, LMMS, muSe, Rosegarden. What if all the people that work on Audacity, LMMS, muSe, Rosegarden work together to make ONE Linux Music Studio? What would happen?


Well I don't agree here as well. To explain Linux's philosophy, I sometimes make an analogy with a forest. Why is there so much kind of trees? People and animals only needs 3-4 kind of wood. Why is there so much kinds of animals doing basically the same thing? We could talk about genetic patter wasting! It is called "diversity", and it is sane. Imagine a world without all this beautifull diversity. Boring. And with diversity comes nice creations, surprises. This is not waste. Linux is not following Corporative's way of doing things. Actually, sometimes yes, sometimes no. Again, this is sane. It creates diversity again and only diversity can bring to something more complete.

As well, Linux is not a finished product and I don't think it will become such. It is a constantly evolutive group of softwares. This, again, is sane because everything around an OS evoluates really fast, so if people want to get the maximum off their computers for a long time, they need an OS that cat evoluate with the hardware.

I can add that GNOME, XFCE and KDE are not aiming the same goals. This gives the user the choice between the 3 main (plus the others of course!:)) Desktop environments considering their need. Personnally, I do prefer more choice than less. I think I am not alone.


Does WINE make Linux a cheap imitation of Windows? No! WINE makes Ubuntu/GNOME (Linux) user-conscious. WINE makes Ubuntu/GNOME (Linux) market friendly. WINE makes Ubuntu/GNOME (Linux) feature complete. WINE gives Ubuntu/GNOME (Linux) compatibility. Canonical should support the WINE project in developing WINE.


Why bothering about imitating another OS? Why not work to get the softwares developpers port their applications native on Linux? To me, it would make more sense.


Ubuntu/GNOME (Linux) shouldn't have a menu launcher that mimics the Windows Start menu; a Menu Bar or Menu Launcher is what makes Ubuntu/GNOME (Linux) a cheap imitation of Windows.

Here I completly agree. But in my humble opinion, the GNOME menu is quite different than the MS one. I do not know about MAC, tho.

For the rest of your "Organization" paragraph, I must say that, at least, if it is not by default, you can always manage to make it look like what you want, the panels are fully customizable. This is a + I guess. I haven't seen this ability in other OSes.

As well, the default layout could be very good to a lot of users. Mather of taste, I guess.


Eye Candy:
Ubuntu/Gnomes default look does not measure up when compared to OSX and Vista. The Controls, Window Borders, and Icons in Ubuntu/Gnome need a lot of work. This is one area where Ubuntu/Gnome needs to mimic and revolutionize what Apple and Microsoft have done. The grandpa/grandma user doesn't want to spend three days customizing their desktop. They wouldn't even know where to begin. Grandpa/grandma users are expecting a default look similar to or better than OSX, XP, and now Vista. Grandpa/grandma users want an OS that is ready to use out of the box. They don't want to tinker.


I think that Ubuntu out of the box is ready to use. I agree that there can be work to be done on the artwork but again, GNOME (and others of course!:)) is fully customizable. Again, artwork is a matter of taste. I personally think that Vista's default colors are ugly. At least, I can easily change GNOME's colors.


Mind Candy:

Too many distributions means a confused grandpa/grandma. All the non-commercial distros should close shop and rally behind Ubuntu.

And this will kill Linux's ideal. Think about diversity. Think about liberty. Liberty for any individual/group of individual to follow an ideal (that might differ from the ideal followed by commercial distributions) and to build up a distribution that reflects that ideal. Liberty for other people to accept this ideal and to get into the project. I this kind of statement would have been followed 4 years ago, Ubuntu wouldn't exist. I guess here that if his "starter", Mark Shuttleworth (correctly spelled?) would have been comfortable with Debian, he would have helped this project to grow. Instead, he took the liberty to build up another distribution, different, following a different philosophy, and it worked. This is an effect of diversity.

As for the applications names, well we can discuss a long time about MS Window's based products with weird names. All matter of taste.

Conclusion:

You have put a lot of energy, effort and time into relating things that have been related again and again and again by other well intentioned users. And I am sure you are well intentionned. The problem is the solution you bring is, in my humble opinion, wrong.

Regards,

-FM

Foxmike
June 21st, 2007, 09:07 PM
Perhaps,

here's a good link: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=58017

sasanf
June 21st, 2007, 09:20 PM
On the topic of Wine. Wine is a stepping stone. Once there are enough people using Linux, Software manufacturers will write their programs to run natively on Linux. At that point, WINE can go away. Right now, Wine is a stepping stone. It will attract Windows users to Linux.

ukripper
June 21st, 2007, 09:37 PM
Perhaps,

here's a good link: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=58017

Well enuff said in the above link to thread!

¨Anatomy of a well-intentioned Linux Troll (or how I learned to stop worrying and love the penguin).Despite numerous protests of "Don't feed the trolls" and "The best thing to do is ignore posts like these," people will continue to respond to trolls because trolls (like Linux distros) come in different flavors and varieties. One troll in particular seems particularly impassioned and genuine and so always gets responses:¨

sasanf
June 21st, 2007, 09:42 PM
I agree with the x-english teacher. To rebuttle. I have tried just about every distro there is. I have a programming degree. And I'm not saying make Linux like Windows. I'm saying make Linux unlike windows.

There is the best way to do something and the worst way to do something and all the way in between. You can build a house using the worst methods and it will crumble; you can build a house using all the best methods and it will stand strong; you can build a house using all the in between methods and it won't stand strong or crumble; it will give you headache after headache after headache after...


It may have all been said before. God keeps on repeating His message. And, I hope people like me will to. I am saddened that I have to be another notch on Micro$oft's belt. I would much rather be a notch on Linux's belt. I don't have the time to spend weeks configuring Linux to get Linux to do one simple task such as play a movie correctly or be afraid of getting arrested because I'm using a codec illegally. A desktop is for productivity, entertainment, etc. A server is for work. Linux desktop needs to find a happy median between the Windows desktop world and the Linux server world. Linux desktop isnt' suppose to be like Linux server. When it comes down to it, Windows and Apple are of higher quality in the desktop market. I put a DVD in and Windows Media Player has no problems playing it. I put a movie in Gnome Movie Player with the Gstreamer-Ugly plugin and the movie will only play the Spanish version and it lags. Hmm... Trolls like me are wrong. 95% percent of the world is wrong... Microsoft must be doing something right to have 95% or the market. By the way, I speak two languages... English and Farsi.

ukripper
June 21st, 2007, 09:50 PM
I agree with the x-english teacher. To rebuttle. I have tried just about every distro there is. I have a programming degree. And I'm not saying make Linux like Windows. I'm saying make Linux unlike windows.

There is the best way to do something and the worst way to do something and all the way in between. You can build a house using the worst methods and it will crumble; you can build a house using all the best methods and it will stand strong; you can build a house using all the in between methods and it won't stand strong or crumble; it will give you headache after headache after headache after...


It may have all been said before. God keeps on repeating His message. And, I hope people like me will to. I am saddened that I have to be another notch on Micro$oft's belt. I would much rather be a notch on Linux's belt. I don't have the time to spend weeks configuring Linux to get Linux to do one simple task such as play a movie correctly or be afraid of getting arrested because I'm using a codec illegally. A desktop is for productivity, entertainment, etc. A server is for work. Linux desktop needs to find a happy median between the Windows desktop world and the Linux server world. Linux desktop isnt' suppose to be like Linux server. When it comes down to it, Windows and Apple are of higher quality in the desktop market. I put a DVD in and Windows Media Player has no problems playing it. I put a movie in Gnome Movie Player with the Gstreamer-Ugly plugin and the movie will only play the Spanish version and it lags. Hmm... Trolls like me are wrong. 95% percent of the world is wrong... Microsoft must be doing something right to have 95% or the market. By the way, I speak two languages... English and Farsi.

So now God is after Microsoft that is why linux is not on the top. hmmmmmm...interesting never thought in that way before!:popcorn:

vexorian
June 21st, 2007, 10:05 PM
If something is unnecesary for you, then remove it.

I cannot seem to find any apps that come with Ubuntu by default as unnecesary , you shall compare with other distros that need 4 CDs...

Foxmike
June 21st, 2007, 11:30 PM
I agree with the x-english teacher. To rebuttle. I have tried just about every distro there is. I have a programming degree. And I'm not saying make Linux like Windows. I'm saying make Linux unlike windows.

There is the best way to do something and the worst way to do something and all the way in between. You can build a house using the worst methods and it will crumble; you can build a house using all the best methods and it will stand strong; you can build a house using all the in between methods and it won't stand strong or crumble; it will give you headache after headache after headache after...


It may have all been said before. God keeps on repeating His message. And, I hope people like me will to. I am saddened that I have to be another notch on Micro$oft's belt. I would much rather be a notch on Linux's belt. I don't have the time to spend weeks configuring Linux to get Linux to do one simple task such as play a movie correctly or be afraid of getting arrested because I'm using a codec illegally. A desktop is for productivity, entertainment, etc. A server is for work. Linux desktop needs to find a happy median between the Windows desktop world and the Linux server world. Linux desktop isnt' suppose to be like Linux server. When it comes down to it, Windows and Apple are of higher quality in the desktop market. I put a DVD in and Windows Media Player has no problems playing it. I put a movie in Gnome Movie Player with the Gstreamer-Ugly plugin and the movie will only play the Spanish version and it lags. Hmm... Trolls like me are wrong. 95% percent of the world is wrong... Microsoft must be doing something right to have 95% or the market. By the way, I speak two languages... English and Farsi.

I do not have any degree in comp prog nor I have tried more than 2 disros... I still think that in this discussion what I say has the same value than what you say. That being said,

I'll take back your house analogy. Let's say I am*living in south africa. If I*have a house built with canadian standarts, will I be happy? No, even if canadian standards in house building are high (speculation here, for the purpose of the example). The house will not suit my needs. This is why there is a diversity in house building: there is a diversity in house occupants. Even if two houses may look the same or answer the same needs, the taske of the occupants will make them differ. Is this waste of resourses? I think no and I think I am not alone.

That being said, I feel I have nothing more to bring to discussion. See ya in anither thread!::)

Regards, FM

sasanf
June 21st, 2007, 11:35 PM
Do you know how to read english? When did I put God and Microsoft in the same sentence? Too much emotion man. I just get the feeling that Linux user's think their right and the rest of the world is wrong. Linux users account for 2 maybe 3 percent of the Desktop market! Windows user's account for about 95% percent of the market. There are plenty of very intelligent people who won't even use Linux because of all of its problems. Every point I made in my essay is valid. If you read it witout excess emotion and bias you will understand what I am saying. Try to prove me right and I will try to prove you right. I agree with choice and I agree that Linux has lots of great programs. I love GIMP, OpenOffice.Org, Firefox, Filezilla, Thunderbird. If you notice, all the really stable and worthy open source programs are also available for Windows. I wonder why? It is about finding a happy median between complexity and simplicity. If Linux prevents me from being productive because I can't install a .bin file from Netbeans.org because Ubuntu can't read it and I have to spend days trying to get it to work and hoping that I do get it to work then what good is Linux? Everyone knows the problems Linux has but no one wants to admit it. You know the problems Linux has but you don't want to admit it. To prove what an advocate of open source software I am, I wrote the documentation for ASSP (Windows Quick Start Guide). I also fought hard to bring OpenOffice.org into my organization instead of Office. I fought to use hMailServer instead of some commercial mail server. I use ClamAV as my email server anti virus even though I have 60 licenses of Avast. Open your mind to the wisdom of someone who support people who can barely use Windows.

sasanf
June 21st, 2007, 11:39 PM
My father is a contractor. I know how homes are built. It was just a metaphor. I'm not fighting anyone. Just pointing out what everyone already knows is wrong with Linux. You can fight the truth or you can accept it. Reality is reality. Finally, my aunt lives in a home made of mud. I lived there when I was a child.

sasanf
June 21st, 2007, 11:50 PM
I wasn't just talking about Ubuntu. KDE installs too many programs. My work laptop is not Bluetooth enabled. Why is Bluetooth software installed when I use Kubuntu, SUSE, etc. The point is that Linux need to be ready to go out of the box. You can't put gas in a race car and then start it after the race has already began. Well, actaully you can. But now you are behind everyone else.

raja
June 21st, 2007, 11:56 PM
Too much emotion man.
Most of the emotion seems to be from your side


I just get the feeling that Linux user's think their right and the rest of the world is wrong. Linux users account for 2 maybe 3 percent of the Desktop market! Windows user's account for about 95% percent of the market. There are plenty of very intelligent people who won't even use Linux because of all of its problems.
To each his own. There are many of us who like the linux way of doing things. There are many of you who dont like it. But I dont see what you stand to gain by complaining out aloud. Let others try this and see for themselves - dont try to scare them off.


Everyone knows the problems Linux has but no one wants to admit it. You know the problems Linux has but you don't want to admit it.
Are you suggesting I am a masochist for having linux running on 2 pcs at home, my laptop and my pc at work, when I have licensed OEM windows on most of them?

sasanf
June 22nd, 2007, 12:50 AM
I'm not suggesting anything. My essay was just suggestions. Nothing more and nothing less. I'm not complaining out loud. Not complaining at all.

I have a balance of emotion and logic. Linux does have it's way of doing things but there is always room for improvement. You sound like my Windows user's, "If it isn't broke, don't fix it." That is what their excuse was when they fought me on using OpenOffice.org instead of Microsoft Office. You don't have to convince me of how great Linux is or isn't... I already know. You have to convince the other billions and billions of Windows users. I do believe the reason Canonical exists is to make money. I do believe that the reason Ubuntu exists is to make money. I do believe that the only reason Linux is even at the level of quality it is at is because of corporations like Canonical. Hmm... corporations. Read the essay again. Try to prove me right. I'll continue to try to prove everyone that has told me tha I am wrong right. I still have ubuntu installed on my home workstation and am dual booting my work laptop. I want to use Netbeans IDE on Ubuntu but can't seem to install the C/C++ module or the profiler module. I'll spend a few more days on getting that problem solved. After that, I'm going to install XP on my machine, install Netbeans and the modules, and get to programming.

raja
June 22nd, 2007, 12:55 AM
You have to convince the other billions and billions of Windows users. I do believe the reason Canonical exists is to make money. I do believe that the reason Ubuntu exists is to make money. I do believe that the only reason Linux is even at the level of quality it is at is because of corporations like Canonical.

Maybe, just maybe, some things in the world aren't about money or corporations...

sasanf
June 22nd, 2007, 01:15 AM
Linux is very much about money. If it wasn't then there would be no Ubuntu, Red Hat (Fedora), Linspire (Freespire), Suse, Xandros, etc. Sun sells Star Office (OpenOffice.org). We live in a world which turns on heirarchy. Money puts you at the top. There is children starving in many parts of the world? Why? If everything wasn't about money there would be no child hunger. Ther reason there is child hunger is because it costs money to feed people. And the Governments of the world aren't willing to feed the people because it is too expensive. Anyway, they system of captilizm works in this manner. In order for the small upper class to exist the large middle class has to exist and in order for the large middle class to exist the medium sized lower class has to exist and in order for them to exist someone has to be left out. So in order for you to enjoy all the luxiries you enjoy some child has to die of hunger. It is always about money. Is Canonical a non profit organization? No! It is about money.

DirtDawg
June 22nd, 2007, 02:13 AM
I'm not fighting anyone. Just pointing out what everyone already knows is wrong with Linux.

Herein lies the biggest problem of all. You think, somehow, we care. We don't care. We've read heaps upon heaps upon heaps of "essays" like yours "helping" us understand what is "wrong" with Linux. And it is soooooo booooring. Did you notice the thread your essay's been merged into is 700+ pages long?

My suggestion is to not let negative responses get to you and leave well enough alone. If you don't like Linux, use Windows. Lots of people do.

Fenryr
June 22nd, 2007, 02:55 AM
I feel it's pretty much a nonsense term, with nearly as many possible definitions as there are DESKTOP owners...Fact is, MOST folks don't know how to configure their WINDOWS boxes, either...99 out of 100 people want it to be connected to their ISP, their email server, and their favorite porn site BEFORE they open the box, or failing that, at least have a family 'geek' on retainer in who's lap they can dump the whole mess...

Well, it may not be rocket science, but it's not exactly a wind-up toy, either...IN other words, RTFM!

ukripper
June 22nd, 2007, 10:05 AM
Do you know how to read english?


No mate, you are the only one here who knows english and can read,speak, write, type and your god knows what else you do with it. Sasanf knows English, WOW! Don't you think you deserve noble prize for that? (then what, it is another language like java or python who cares unless people are getting your point across)

I have just commented on the post where you have posted this

It may have all been said before. God keeps on repeating His message. you sound like a really weak person who can't take a little sarcasm and begging in the name of God to help support your own personal opinions.

People ignore this person. He/She is just a wimp trying to get some sympathy from our community like few others.

One line for you in the name of God ' God help those who helps themselves' this could apply in Linux too if you try enuff!

sasanf
June 22nd, 2007, 12:34 PM
No mate, you are the only one here who knows english and can read,speak, write, type and your god knows what else you do with it. Sasanf knows English, WOW! Don't you think you deserve noble prize for that? (then what, it is another language like java or python who cares unless people are getting your point across)

I have just commented on the post where you have posted this you sound like a really weak person who can't take a little sarcasm and begging in the name of God to help support your own personal opinions.

People ignore this person. He/She is just a wimp trying to get some sympathy from our community like few others.

One line for you in the name of God ' God help those who helps themselves' this could apply in Linux too if you try enuff!

In the quote you specify, I was referring to the x-english teacher's thread. He said it had been said before. God has repeated his message over and over again to us through many prophets (Christ, Mohandis, etc). I was inferring that if someone states a truth and the rest of the world ignores it or fights against it that doesn't mean they should stop stating it. And I apologize for the remark I made about do you know how to speak english. It is one of my pet peeves, I don't like it when others twist my words or put words in my mouth. If you look back at your post, you did that very thing.

sasanf
June 22nd, 2007, 12:50 PM
No I'm not weak. You insulting me is a sign of your weakness. I wrote an essay that makes valid points. It is that simple. The Linux world can take my essay and throw it away or they can honestly read it; if they see the truth in what I say accept the truth and act accordingly. If not then fine. From what I have read in the responses, most people are reading through it quickly and in a passive manner. There is actually a rebuttal to every response within the essay itself. You just have to look for it. It seems that reading has become just like listening to someone talk... passive. I wrote the essay because I am for Linux and want to see it succeed. I don't want to use Windows but I have to. Rosegarden doesn't cut it when it comes to my needs for a music production studio. Actually, none of the music studio apps available in the Linux world do. Hence, why I said why don't all of them work together. The more people you have working on anything the more resources, talent, expertise, etc. you have. Unity is what promotes progress, disunity doesn't. And I agree there is some level of unity in the Linux world but there could be more and I strongly believe that it would benefit all of us who believe.

Enverex
June 22nd, 2007, 12:51 PM
There is enough religious BS in threads, please leave it out of this one.

John.Michael.Kane
June 22nd, 2007, 01:00 PM
Some folks here would beg to differ with you on the subject of linux not being music production studio ready
ubuntustudio (http://ubuntustudio.org/)
Ubuntu Studio is out. (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=439624&highlight=ubuntu+studio)
Multimedia Production: (http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=254)

As to your other concerns, As others have said before they have been pointed out many times over.

However. If you truly want to make a difference read here http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=408434

ukripper
June 22nd, 2007, 01:03 PM
In the quote you specify, I was referring to the x-english teacher's thread. He said it had been said before. God has repeated his message over and over again to us through many prophets (Christ, Mohandis, etc). I was inferring that if someone states a truth and the rest of the world ignores it or fights against it that doesn't mean they should stop stating it. And I apologize for the remark I made about do you know how to speak english. It is one of my pet peeves, I don't like it when others twist my words or put words in my mouth. If you look back at your post, you did that very thing.

Mate it doesn't matter to me about any remarks you make or anyone else make against me. Well I think there is alot of confusion going as many threads have been merged so probably I picked up lines out of context. Nevermind, I apologise for interpreting it wrong. However, I am still confused on your hatred towards linux.
I never felt linux is ugly in any ways.

It is Desktop ready for users who want a change in life and stop paying to companies when they can use everything similiar to what they use in windows or MACs. That shows driven by masses not ones intelligence.

ukripper
June 22nd, 2007, 01:17 PM
No I'm not weak. You insulting me is a sign of your weakness. I wrote an essay that makes valid points. It is that simple. The Linux world can take my essay and throw it away or they can honestly read it; if they see the truth in what I say accept the truth and act accordingly. If not then fine. From what I have read in the responses, most people are reading through it quickly and in a passive manner. There is actually a rebuttal to every response within the essay itself. You just have to look for it. It seems that reading has become just like listening to someone talk... passive. I wrote the essay because I am for Linux and want to see it succeed. I don't want to use Windows but I have to. Rosegarden doesn't cut it when it comes to my needs for a music production studio. Actually, none of the music studio apps available in the Linux world do. Hence, why I said why don't all of them work together. The more people you have working on anything the more resources, talent, expertise, etc. you have. Unity is what promotes progress, disunity doesn't. And I agree there is some level of unity in the Linux world but there could be more and I strongly believe that it would benefit all of us who believe.

Truth speaks for itself, you don't need to tell anyone here what linux lacks. people who use it on daily basis and support other users in real life like me and earn living are not stupid. If you take our responses back as your insult then it is your problem not ours.

It has become passive in your case because you are talking about the same stuff which few lot rambles on here just goes to show how uncouth they are, just want everything to be like windows(i feel sorry for them).

sasanf
June 22nd, 2007, 01:18 PM
Mate it doesn't matter to me about any remarks you make or anyone else make against me. Well I think there is alot of confusion going as many threads have been merged so probably I picked up lines out of context. Nevermind, I apologise for interpreting it wrong. However, I am still confused on your hatred towards linux.
I never felt linux is ugly in any ways.

It is Desktop ready for users who want a change in life and stop paying to companies when they can use everything similiar to what they use in windows or MACs. That shows driven by masses not ones intelligence.

I don't hate Linux. I love Linux. I love linux so much that I spent weeks writing the essay. I love Linux because it beliefs are so close to my personal beliefs. I think Linux is great. You have to understand, I had people spreading rumors about me when I tried to make the company I work for more Open Source friendly. I had people yelling at me. Utter hate was thrown my way. I support users who have trouble using windows. I want Linux to take at least 50% percent of the market share. It deserves it. It's about stepping stones. WINE is a stepping stone. More superficial app names is a stepping stone. I also have read some threads about Linus saying something similar to (I don't want to put words in his mouth) that if GNOME is designed for idiots only idiots will use it. Not cool. Everyone has their intelligence. I don't know how to fix cars but does that make me an idiot? It takes all kinds of people to make the world go around. Linux is about helping people... right? Well lets do that. Lets help them by giving them an OS and software that doesn't scare them or confuse them. I tutored a girl once who had the mental intelligence of a 9 years old. She was 20. She is the hardest working person I have known. No matter how hard I tried to teach her Geometry, I couldn't. It is people like her who deserve our thoughts when we make Linux. Not lazy people, but people like her.

sasanf
June 22nd, 2007, 01:21 PM
Some folks here would beg to differ with you on the subject of linux not being music production studio ready
ubuntustudio (http://ubuntustudio.org/)
Ubuntu Studio is out. (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=439624&highlight=ubuntu+studio)
Multimedia Production: (http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=254)

As to your other concerns, As others have said before they have been pointed out many times over.

However. If you truly want to make a difference read here http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=408434

I tried 64 Studio and Jack wasn't even working. I also tried to install UbuntuStudio on my machine but it wouldn't boot.

deanlinkous
June 22nd, 2007, 02:00 PM
There is enough religious BS in threads, please leave it out of this one.
AMEN.......




:D

ukripper
June 22nd, 2007, 02:37 PM
I tried 64 Studio and Jack wasn't even working. I also tried to install UbuntuStudio on my machine but it wouldn't boot.

What is your machine spec?If you don't mind sharing with us

Fenryr
June 22nd, 2007, 03:22 PM
¨Anatomy of a well-intentioned Linux Troll (or how I learned to stop worrying and love the penguin).Despite numerous protests of "Don't feed the trolls" and "The best thing to do is ignore posts like these," people will continue to respond to trolls because trolls (like Linux distros) come in different flavors and varieties. One troll in particular seems particularly impassioned and genuine and so always gets responses:¨


Yeah, I SHOULD know better...But at the end of the day, I just ENJOY poking trolls with a stick...It's a GREAT way to relieve a little stress before the evenin's serious DRINKING begins...*l*

sasanf
June 22nd, 2007, 03:22 PM
AMD X2 3800, NVidia 6600 LE SLI, ABIT Motherboard with Nvidia GForce 4 SLI chipset (I believe... I have to check... can't remember), 250 Gig PATA HD, A generic modem that has never been recognized by any distro. I also tried Ubuntu Studio on my laptop and it wouldn't boot either. It has to do with graphics on both my workstation and laptop. My laptop is an Inspiron 6400. I want to use Ubuntu because I want to run 64 bit. Ubuntu Studio isn't 64bit. I installed Jack on Ubuntu and then Rosegarden and Qsynth. Rosegarden opened fine but gave me a message about Kernel timing or refresh or something being too slow. Qsynth wouldn't even open. It kept on telling me Jack wasn't running. I would still rathre use Fruity Loops but if Rosegarden can give me what I need (I doubt it because Fruity Loops is so powerful) I would be more than happy to learn Rosegarden.

ukripper
June 22nd, 2007, 03:29 PM
While i agree with some of your points, i would strangle someone if they got rid of my gedit for oowriter. One is handy for word processing and one is handy for coding... think about it

Using gedit I code HTML, PHP, python, shell and conky scripts, and have third party extensions installed making it look like all in one IDE.

sasanf
June 22nd, 2007, 03:54 PM
Using gedit I code HTML, PHP, python, shell and conky scripts, and have third party extensions installed making it look like all in one IDE.

The example I used in my essay was a bad one. I was just trying to say don't, by default, install unnecessary software. I have never used gedit and didn't know it was an IDE. I was talking about a simple text editor and writer. Writer can do what any simple text editor can do. Of course, a simple text editor will open faster than oOo. It was a bad example.

Just out of curiosity if gedit is used for coding, why not use Eclipse, Netbeans, and/or QT? What does gedit have that one or all of these other IDE's don't have? If it is is better than these in a substantial way, I'll start using gedit.

ukripper
June 22nd, 2007, 05:35 PM
The example I used in my essay was a bad one. I was just trying to say don't, by default, install unnecessary software. I have never used gedit and didn't know it was an IDE. I was talking about a simple text editor and writer. Writer can do what any simple text editor can do. Of course, a simple text editor will open faster than oOo. It was a bad example.

Just out of curiosity if gedit is used for coding, why not use Eclipse, Netbeans, and/or QT? What does gedit have that one or all of these other IDE's don't have? If it is is better than these in a substantial way, I'll start using gedit.

I didnt mention gedit as an IDE, all I meant was you can add extensions to it so that you can code better. There are some plugins you can use http://packages.ubuntu.com/edgy/gnome/gedit-plugins

For more plugins try this - http://live.gnome.org/Gedit/Plugins

QT is used for GUI designing, I sometime use qtdesigner to design layouts and create widgets. But I do more scripting in python where I use gedit mostly and to compile I just go to terminal and does it all for me. If I am just scripting in python or php, shell using IDE is overkill for me.

prizrak
June 22nd, 2007, 07:25 PM
On the topic of Wine. Wine is a stepping stone. Once there are enough people using Linux, Software manufacturers will write their programs to run natively on Linux. At that point, WINE can go away. Right now, Wine is a stepping stone. It will attract Windows users to Linux.

Wrong! If Wine can run all Windows software (as you seem to suggest it should) then why would any ISV bother writing for Linux? Nothing, that's what. Linux will never get the number Windows does, it can get 15-25% of the market, enough to get it noticed but not enough to take over. If Wine works well there is no point for an ISV to write a native version they can just develop for Windows and know that it will work with WINE.

FYI, no Linux distro in existence takes ANY steps to stop you from running commercial software. I have an nVidia driver from the official Ubuntu repository installed as well as Flash. Just because something is not installed by default doesn't mean it's blocked. Hell a new Windows install has alot less stuff installed.

prizrak
June 22nd, 2007, 07:34 PM
I can't install a .bin file from Netbeans.org because Ubuntu can't read it and I have to spend days trying to get it to work and hoping that I do get it to work then what good is Linux?
Haven't had a problem installing Netbeans yet. Took me a grand total of 10 seconds to start the installer.

You are Windows power user, however you are the lowest of the low of the n00bs when it comes to Linux. Ubuntu is obviously not for you, you are struggling with it because you are used to being a PC god. Sorry homes, gotta start from the bottom I wasn't born knowing how to drive but I will challenge anyone to a race at this point.

Leave us be, Linux is the way it is, it is evolution not intellegent design ;)

. Actually, none of the music studio apps available in the Linux world do. Hence, why I said why don't all of them work together. The more people you have working on anything the more resources, talent, expertise, etc. you have. Unity is what promotes progress, disunity doesn't.
Ya know, I find that when I'm driving a car it is much easier to do it by myself than when someone is trying to turn the wheel the other way or tell me what to do. Think about it......

prizrak
June 22nd, 2007, 07:45 PM
The example I used in my essay was a bad one. I was just trying to say don't, by default, install unnecessary software. I have never used gedit and didn't know it was an IDE. I was talking about a simple text editor and writer. Writer can do what any simple text editor can do. Of course, a simple text editor will open faster than oOo. It was a bad example.

Just out of curiosity if gedit is used for coding, why not use Eclipse, Netbeans, and/or QT? What does gedit have that one or all of these other IDE's don't have? If it is is better than these in a substantial way, I'll start using gedit.

As was pointed out it is not an IDE it is a text editor. If you wanna know why you need both OO and gEdit I suggest opening a config file in OO. On my work machine (sadly WIndows, tho with any luck it's going to change in about 2 weeks) I have Notepad++ because Notepad just doesn't cut it. I'm also not insane enough yet to use Word for that. Try coding in Perl in Word or Writer and lemme know how the syntax recognition works out. Wonder what auto formating is going to do to code structure too.

sasanf
June 22nd, 2007, 07:47 PM
Wrong! If Wine can run all Windows software (as you seem to suggest it should) then why would any ISV bother writing for Linux? Nothing, that's what. Linux will never get the number Windows does, it can get 15-25% of the market, enough to get it noticed but not enough to take over. If Wine works well there is no point for an ISV to write a native version they can just develop for Windows and know that it will work with WINE.

FYI, no Linux distro in existence takes ANY steps to stop you from running commercial software. I have an nVidia driver from the official Ubuntu repository installed as well as Flash. Just because something is not installed by default doesn't mean it's blocked. Hell a new Windows install has alot less stuff installed.

Software developers would much rather have a native version than one that runs on top of a compatibility layer. It cuts down on support costs. And even if they do decide to support their app running on top of WINE, it still means more people using Linux and thus more talent and resources available to Linux.

In regards to stopping me from using certain software... from my understanding, I may be wrong, licenses such as GPL are very restrictive on a distributers such as Canonical distributing software that interacts with GPL licensed software. Fluendo has a legal MP3 codec. Canonical can't distribute it because of the GPL licenses of the media software installed on Ubuntu. I don't agree with this. We don't live in a socialist world so we can't just take things and use them without paying for them. MP3 is patented which means no one can legally make a codec without paying licensing fees. How does FSF expect me or anyone else to be able listen to my/their MP3s without a codec. Do they expect me to use a codec illegally? Of course, I'm not a lawyer and am fuzzy about all the lic stuff. I do like what canonical has done with the automatic codec installtion. It will definitely help those who are not as technical. However, it does not help those who do not have internet access. And there are millions upon millions of people in the world who don't even have access to dial up and if they do it is too expensive for them.

What I find interesting is that in a country like Iran the people would rather pirate Windows (that doesn't have localization) instead of use Ubuntu which does have localization? There aren't many Iranians that can speak English but to them Windows is still easier to use than Ubuntu which I know has an Arabic localization. It's not Farsi but it is closer than English. I also know that Ubuntu has a Persian Forum.

sasanf
June 22nd, 2007, 07:53 PM
Haven't had a problem installing Netbeans yet. Took me a grand total of 10 seconds to start the installer.

You are Windows power user, however you are the lowest of the low of the n00bs when it comes to Linux. Ubuntu is obviously not for you, you are struggling with it because you are used to being a PC god. Sorry homes, gotta start from the bottom I wasn't born knowing how to drive but I will challenge anyone to a race at this point.

Leave us be, Linux is the way it is, it is evolution not intellegent design ;)

Ya know, I find that when I'm driving a car it is much easier to do it by myself than when someone is trying to turn the wheel the other way or tell me what to do. Think about it......

I haven't had a problem installing the core of Netbeans and it's version 5.5 not 5.5.1. I want to also install Profiler and C/C++ module. I concede I am a Windows power user. Actually more than a power user. I administer 9 Windows server, 1 Netvanta 3305 Router which is CLI all the way (It has a GUI which I like but it doesn't mean I don't use the CLI), 4 L2 Negear Managed switches, 2 L3 Netgear managed switches, A Sonciwall 2040 with Enhanced OS. I've also done plenty of Cisco switch and router configurations.

sasanf
June 22nd, 2007, 08:40 PM
The following is from the WINE HQ site:

Any Windows replacement must run Windows applications
The dependency is not so much on Microsoft Windows as it is on Windows applications. Boxed off-the-shelf applications, games, in-house applications, vertical market applications, are what prevents users, companies and governments from switching to another operating system. Even if 90% of the needs of most users are taken care of if you can provide them with an office suite, an email client, a browser, and a media player, then there will still be a remaining 10% of their needs, potentially critical needs, that are not met. Unfortunately these remaining 10% are spread across a wide spectrum of applications: thousands of applications running the gamut from games to specialized accounting software for French farms, via Italian encyclopedias, German tax software, child education software, banking software, in-house software representing years of development, etc. It is the availability of all this software that makes Windows so compelling and its monopoly so strong. No platform will become mainstream unless it runs a significant portion of that software and lets individuals, companies and governments preserve their investments in that software.

ukripper
June 22nd, 2007, 08:48 PM
I haven't had a problem installing the core of Netbeans and it's version 5.5 not 5.5.1. I want to also install Profiler and C/C++ module. I concede I am a Windows power user. Actually more than a power user. I administer 9 Windows server, 1 Netvanta 3305 Router which is CLI all the way (It has a GUI which I like but it doesn't mean I don't use the CLI), 4 L2 Negear Managed switches, 2 L3 Netgear managed switches, A Sonciwall 2040 with Enhanced OS. I've also done plenty of Cisco switch and router configurations.

Myself I am MCTS, MCP windows 2003 server, MCP XP, CCNA , A+, Linux+, got System and Software Engg. degree , doesnt mean that I have to be a great windows administrator to put things in linux to work.

prizrak
June 22nd, 2007, 09:02 PM
Software developers would much rather have a native version than one that runs on top of a compatibility layer. It cuts down on support costs. And even if they do decide to support their app running on top of WINE, it still means more people using Linux and thus more talent and resources available to Linux.

In regards to stopping me from using certain software... from my understanding, I may be wrong, licenses such as GPL are very restrictive on a distributers such as Canonical distributing software that interacts with GPL licensed software. Fluendo has a legal MP3 codec. Canonical can't distribute it because of the GPL licenses of the media software installed on Ubuntu. I don't agree with this. We don't live in a socialist world so we can't just take things and use them without paying for them. MP3 is patented which means no one can legally make a codec without paying licensing fees. How does FSF expect me or anyone else to be able listen to my/their MP3s without a codec. Do they expect me to use a codec illegally? Of course, I'm not a lawyer and am fuzzy about all the lic stuff. I do like what canonical has done with the automatic codec installtion. It will definitely help those who are not as technical.

You are confusing two different things. GPL covers distribution not usage, you can install ANYTHING you want with ANY license on your own system. You may not be able to distribute certain things.


However, it does not help those who do not have internet access. And there are millions upon millions of people in the world who don't even have access to dial up and if they do it is too expensive for them.
People without access to dial up will not be running Ubuntu as you need to be online to even order a Ship It CD.


What I find interesting is that in a country like Iran the people would rather pirate Windows (that doesn't have localization) instead of use Ubuntu which does have localization? There aren't many Iranians that can speak English but to them Windows is still easier to use than Ubuntu which I know has an Arabic localization. It's not Farsi but it is closer than English. I also know that Ubuntu has a Persian Forum.
Better the devil you know.... I will not lecture you on the reason rather I suggest you find some articles on vendor lock in and monopolies. I will just bottom line it for you, it doesn't matter how good or bad an alternative product is (in this case Linux vs Windows) it's all about market forces. FYI, Apple is hardly winning they have the same presence on the desktop as Linux and a tiny fraction of the server presence.

I haven't had a problem installing the core of Netbeans and it's version 5.5 not 5.5.1. I want to also install Profiler and C/C++ module.
There is something wrong with the 5.5 package in the repos - definetly an Ubuntu fault. Works just fine with the official version however. I just installed it just to see.
Do the following, I'll give you terminal commands because it makes my life much easier. Get rid of the 5.5 install you don't need it. Download NetBeans 5.5.1, profiler and c/c++ module. After that open up terminal.

ls <directory where you downloaded the .bin>
sudo chmod +x netbeans-c++-5_5_1-linux.bin
sudo chmod +x netbeans-profiler-5_5_1-linux.bin
sudo chmod +x sjsas_pe-9_0_01-nb-5_5_1-ml-fcs-bin-linux.bin (NOTE: I downloaded the one with application server so name might be different for you)
sudo apt-get install sun-java6-jdk
sudo sh sjsas_pe-9_0_01-nb-5_5_1-ml-fcs-bin-linux.bin
Let it install and follow the options. Generally it is best to install into the /opt directory but you can choose what you want. It will find the JDK itself so just leave it as is. After it's done:

sudo sh netbeans-profiler-5_5_1-linux.bin
After it's done.

sudo sh netbeans-c++-5_5_1-linux.bin
There you go everything should be working just fine now, does for me in any case.

Yes this might be too difficult for grandma and grandpa to do but they don't normally develop in Java and C++, at least the ones I know don't.

The following is from the WINE HQ site:

Any Windows replacement must run Windows applications
The dependency is not so much on Microsoft Windows as it is on Windows applications. Boxed off-the-shelf applications, games, in-house applications, vertical market applications, are what prevents users, companies and governments from switching to another operating system. Even if 90% of the needs of most users are taken care of if you can provide them with an office suite, an email client, a browser, and a media player, then there will still be a remaining 10% of their needs, potentially critical needs, that are not met. Unfortunately these remaining 10% are spread across a wide spectrum of applications: thousands of applications running the gamut from games to specialized accounting software for French farms, via Italian encyclopedias, German tax software, child education software, banking software, in-house software representing years of development, etc. It is the availability of all this software that makes Windows so compelling and its monopoly so strong. No platform will become mainstream unless it runs a significant portion of that software and lets individuals, companies and governments preserve their investments in that software.
That is what they believe, more power to them. From the brain of one known as Prizrak:
Linux is not a replacement for Windows it is an alternative. Same way that a Ferrari is not a replacement for a Civic.

Calash
June 22nd, 2007, 09:35 PM
Computers are tools. Do you expect every person to be able to operate a power saw out of the box with minimal reading of the manual? It takes time and experience...sure you can get it to cut but to do anything advanced you need time.

The same goes for computers. Despite popular opinion, they take time to learn. Therefore "Desktop Ready" is a misleading term designed to sell systems to people who are not ready for them.

On the plus side, it keeps people like me in business :)

sasanf
June 23rd, 2007, 12:19 AM
Thank you for the instructions. I download the 200+ page documentation of Linux from the Linux Documentation Project. I think I'll read it this weekend. I've already read a lot of Linux documentation but it has been all over the place and not linear. I figure Linux is a river that has to flow and run its course. I still believe all the points I made are valid. Hopefully Linux will find itself able to cater to the average computer user and to the technical user.

One final question. Is it illegal to use the gstreamer_ugly plugins in the United States? Is it illegal to use any of the gstreamer plugins in the United States?

vexorian
June 23rd, 2007, 01:01 AM
Ubuntu as you need to be online to even order a Ship It CD

That's not true, you can order ship it from another computer and use the CD on yours.

I must say, the place I live there are some street places where people sell CDs (often windows, photoshop, etc) Ubuntu is becoming frequent there.

DARKGuy
June 23rd, 2007, 01:21 AM
I wonder though... what about offline installs? I've seen Ubuntu (or any other Linux distro, for that matter) depends a LOT on internet for getting mostly dependencies... what about offline install? in Windows you don't have as much problems (except for drivers, codecs and programs, small updates...) but in Ubuntu it must be hell... it isn't like you download WinAmp and install it on Windows and voilá... but getting Audacious in Ubuntu would require a lot of dependencies online... what about offline install situations?

Sepero
June 23rd, 2007, 02:05 AM
The average Joe doesn't use Quickbooks or Quicken; nor does he use Photoshop or Visio. He certainly doesn't know enough about Microsoft Office to use any of the features that are not present in Openoffice.org.

Preinstalled Linux is as good, if not better, for the average Joe than any other operating system.
This is one of the best posts I've read in this thread. Linux _IS_ ready for Average (beer drinking, non-techie) Joe.

Unfortunately, Linux being ready for Average Joe isn't good enough. Average Joe doesn't say, "Hey you should check out this computer operating system". Average Joe does not consider installing an OS that did not come with their computer.

I think to grow, Linux has got to appeal to 2 more kinds of people:
1) People that spread word of mouth the most. (Like people who buy pc magazines. They live for this stuff.)
2) People that are in control of installs on other peoples systems.

-Group 1 could be called "Power Users". People who love computers, but usually know little to nothing about the commandline and programming.
-Group 2 could be called "Administrators". This could be as small as someone who keeps their Grandmas computer running, or as large as an IBM executive systems administrator.

raul_
June 23rd, 2007, 02:24 AM
Well Linux was always an internet based OS, that's how it was created. For those who don't have internet access, they should get their hands on a 4 cd or DVD based distro that installs every application you could think of

raja
June 23rd, 2007, 03:01 AM
licenses such as GPL are very restrictive on a distributers such as Canonical distributing software that interacts with GPL licensed software. Fluendo has a legal MP3 codec. Canonical can't distribute it because of the GPL licenses of the media software installed on Ubuntu.

Sorry, but (again) you are totally confused. Take some time to read the GPL and the Ubuntu philosophy.


What I find interesting is that in a country like Iran the people would rather pirate Windows (that doesn't have localization) instead of use Ubuntu which does have localization? There aren't many Iranians that can speak English but to them Windows is still easier to use than Ubuntu.

What is more interesting is http://www.financialexpress.com/fe_full_story.php?content_id=138464.

Feba
June 23rd, 2007, 04:52 AM
I'd read that when Vista was released, it only sold a few hundred copies in all of China in the first week. Take from that what you will.

DARKGuy
June 23rd, 2007, 04:53 AM
I'm only getting Vista 'cause of Halo 2... only thing I'd use it for. For everything else there's Ubuntu and XP ^_^.

Feba
June 23rd, 2007, 05:21 AM
Why not get an Xbox? They're cheaper than Vista at this point...

DARKGuy
June 23rd, 2007, 05:35 AM
Huh, good point :p. I'd get one if people would be using X-Boxes in the future... you know, in real-life work, companies upgrade, or friends do too, and I don't want to look like somebody who just came out from below a rock and doesn't know anything from the new stuff... I've lived that for about 2-3 years, I'm not gonna let it happen again :P besides I work as a tech support guy, I have to know the latest stuff and get experience on it while it's still new and I can get it :3.

Besides, my PC is gonna be powerful enough to handle any new game efficiently (saving up for a PCI-E mobo & vid. card) so it's a win-win situation :P.

Though... <.< I'd looooooooooooove an X-Box, but not now xD

ukripper
June 23rd, 2007, 09:45 AM
I'm only getting Vista 'cause of Halo 2... only thing I'd use it for. For everything else there's Ubuntu and XP ^_^.

I played it on Xbox was wonderful experience till it ended very quick as I was heavy gamer at some point. But it is overall a good game especially playing 4 players together on 1 console on 42"

It shows i don't hate Microsoft.

If I look for Vista alone it costs me about 150£ . If I look at Xbox(as whole brand new )costs you under 50£ with two games free

darkog
June 23rd, 2007, 03:29 PM
The average Joe doesn't use Quickbooks or Quicken; nor does he use Photoshop or Visio. He certainly doesn't know enough about Microsoft Office to use any of the features that are not present in Openoffice.org.

Preinstalled Linux is as good, if not better, for the average Joe than any other operating system.

Probably *your* "average joe" is not the same "average joe" that i know. :@)

You see, for technically advanced users, they have a choice when it comes to what they want to run of their computer. They will be fine with whatever they have in front of them, be it Windows w/IE, OSX w/Safari or Ubu w/Firefox (these are just examples!) -- is doesn't matter what it is. They are very advanced and they will find their way around the OS & software.

But, a lot of people using computers are not technically advanced -- but they still want to use computers and email family members and send pictures back and forth e.t.c. For them, it's sometimes a big fisking deal if the web browser icon moves from the top left to the bottom right. It totally throws them off and confuses them. You can't just tell them to not worry about it, just use Linux, be free, and be happy!!

In my experience, the average joes like to use things like Quicktax, and quickbooks, and their stupid web shots and that god awful KodakShare software that came in the Kodak camera they bought on sale at the source. They don't care they you have Ubutu Linux and Fspot, they want that thing that came with that camera they bought.

In order for Linux to become more popular amongst the masses, it has to:
#1 - be embraced by consumer electronics vendors.
#2 - more drivers released by vendors.

dustigroove
June 23rd, 2007, 04:56 PM
Now, I disagree with the title of the post... Linux IS on the desktop, and doing quite well thank you very much. But as headings often have to be somewhat compelling to draw audience, we can somewhat forgive the inaccuracy of it.

However, some of his points are well placed if we are looking at wider adoption and use by certain (vital) segments of the user population. So while there are many "I don't use it - Don't need it folks", there are an equal, or greater, amount of users that would benefit the platform if we could bring them on on-board by offering them fully equivalent tools to do the tasks they have at hand.

I am not a graphic designer myself, but I do come from a family that has 3 in the fold and amongst them and their friends/acquaintances know a number of other artistic types that use Photoshop as a primary tool to make their living. When presented with the GIMP, there was interest and a few found it to be capable for general use, but most found it was limited, mainly by the fact that it has no native support for the CMYK color model, and couldn't use it as an alternative for Photoshop in their work flow. There are projects that aim to fill this gap (http://www.linuxjournal.com/xstatic/abstracts/2007-07/bt9710), but they are not yet matured.

Similar points can be made on the Quicken / Office fronts, but as breakfast is ready and the little miss is looking at me with dagger eyes I'll have to take my leave.


Cheers

prizrak
June 23rd, 2007, 07:08 PM
That's not true, you can order ship it from another computer and use the CD on yours.

I must say, the place I live there are some street places where people sell CDs (often windows, photoshop, etc) Ubuntu is becoming frequent there.

There is an Ubuntu DVD in existence. Aside from that apt makes Ubuntu one of the best OS's out there at the same time making it one of the worst for those w/o internet. Something like OpenSuSE or Fedora Core would be better for offline systems. Having said that, I don't understand what you could do with a computer without internet access. Also at this point it makes no difference what OS you run, you are not likely to benefit from any security enhancements.

DARKGuy
June 23rd, 2007, 07:16 PM
I played it on Xbox was wonderful experience till it ended very quick as I was heavy gamer at some point. But it is overall a good game especially playing 4 players together on 1 console on 42"

It shows i don't hate Microsoft.

If I look for Vista alone it costs me about 150£ . If I look at Xbox(as whole brand new )costs you under 50£ with two games free

Agreed, I played it with a friend and reached about the point where you were entering Earth City with a tank and all... pretty cool experience indeed.... but since I don't have an X-Box and I wanna finish it... :p

Also, X-Box will end up just like the Playstation did back in its time... it was the bomb... for a time, then now everyone has an Playstation lying around taking up dust... I'm not saying that Vista wouldn't, but more laptops and PCs and people are getting Vista just 'cause "it's new" and then they'll all start annoying me with Vista stuff - I gotta get ready... both for real-life work and friends.

karellen
June 24th, 2007, 11:21 AM
Originally Posted by 3rdalbum
The average Joe doesn't use Quickbooks or Quicken; nor does he use Photoshop or Visio. He certainly doesn't know enough about Microsoft Office to use any of the features that are not present in Openoffice.org.

Preinstalled Linux is as good, if not better, for the average Joe than any other operating system.
and what if average Joe wants something as basic as file transfer or webcam support in an im? or he wants to play some decent game, not top-notch and resource hungry (empire earth, medieval total war, diablo 2 and stuff like that) ?
so you see....it's not about windows or linux, it's about software ecosystem built around them

maddot
June 24th, 2007, 01:37 PM
It is true that whatever program you're using in windows doesn't work in linux or no alternatives are available in linux is not linux fault. Let's take a look at another prospect. Let's look at the business prospect.

Let's say i'm a game production house. I have this new "LEET!11111!!!11!!!" Game. The console market now holds more than the market share PC holds. Now let's look at the market share of PCs, a majority is head by of course, the great imperial Microsoft, i think about 80%. the remaining, 20 is divided into 15% apple and 5% linux. Those numbers are just based of the top of my head and do not carry an accurate relations to the real values.

Should my company, concentrate on windows, since all the money is there? Shouldn't i concentrate on one system where i can at least make money off, and concentrate on producing a good game? Instead of making small crummy ones? Think about it.

I was never a fan of warcraft, magic and dragons turns me off. So even if it's ported fully to linux, i wouldn't touch it. It's all economics 101. Why work on something that will only make me like, 1500$ when i can work on a game that can make me 5,000,000$?

Now you're going to argue, what about opengl. True most games use directX and can work with opengl, how ever, consider the fact that it might be easier to work with directx? that, and would it be worth it to make a game that will have 80% of the market then 20%?

I have to say, majority of linux default games suck. They are only good if you are trying to lose time, however, if you are about 13 years old and your friends tell you a cool recent game on windows, i.e assasin's creed, would you rather play that game or brush it of and stick to linux. Yes, it's preference but this is reality and in the market world, majority of gamers are indeed teens. but they start as kids. And parents buy them games. At the end of the road, the money is from parents. True parents plays games as well, but their games are less....umm....graphic.

Think about it. just my 2 cents

kevmartin
June 24th, 2007, 11:39 PM
[COLOR=Black]Now, I disagree with the title of the post... Linux IS on the desktop, and doing quite well thank you very much. But as headings often have to be somewhat compelling to draw audience, we can somewhat forgive the inaccuracy of it.

However, some of his points are well placed if we are looking at wider adoption and use by certain (vital) segments of the user population. So while there are many "I don't use it - Don't need it folks", there are an equal, or greater, amount of users that would benefit the platform if we could bring them on on-board by offering them fully equivalent tools to do the tasks they have at hand.


Agreed.

I do find need for apps on Windows, and tried various option s to have a primary Linux machine and switch to Windows just to use the tools I need it for. Problem was the switches were all too frequent to be practical on one machine, so I found myself in Windows all the time anyway. My only real solution is going to be 2 machines on the desk. As Windows is due for a reinstall anyway, the time may be getting near (should be fun learning to network the 2 machines :) )

Regarding what Linux "needs for the desktop", to my mine the main thing is time (and continued support from the users). It is growing and will continue to grow. Eventually it will grow enough that the major venders will jump on board because the user base is large enough to represent a viable market for them.

Oh, and lastly, I'll add my voice to those that say I tried Trillian several times - it always ended badly and I ditched it again. There are better alternatives on Windows, and I like Gaim/Pidgin on Linux (Windows version has problems for me unfortunately).

ticopelp
June 25th, 2007, 05:38 AM
Heh, what complete and total BS.

I stopped using MS Office long before I switched to Ubuntu. Same with Trillian. Trillian is a bloated piece of crap. Gaim / Pidgin has been my IM client of choice since the day I discovered it.

And yeah, count me in with the people saying -- it's on my desktop right now, so its "chances" on the desktop are 100% for me.

vexorian
June 25th, 2007, 05:41 AM
This sounds more like "Seven Tools that Linux needs to be Windows"

Either way :
- photoshop : I mean seriously, how much pro artists do you have out there that everybody really needs this tool? And how do all windows users get the money to buy Photoshop? That's something I don't get why even include it as part of the "not a chance in the desktop" as if it was an essential tool for the desktop... while it is actually an specialized tool

- Quicken and Quickbooks: Uh the world of finances, again other specialized app. So not really about "desktop" but about making it work for bussiness...

Microsoft Office : First of all, must say: the compatibility issues openoffice got with MSO formats are for very specific things! I know this since I even delivered homework in .doc format saved by ODF, so I actually think people is totally able to just email their .doc, .pps, .etc.

Regarding performance, I have not gotten that problem myself, I don't think any performance issue in OpenOffice is huge enough in comparison with also bloated MSOffice to make it not a viable choice.

Schedule BS for outlook, once again bussiness bussiness, nothing about "the Desktop" and that was the title of the thread...

Skype: Tell skype to improve their darn stuff, video in Linux is not exactly novelty or something any hard to get.

Vision: bussiness bussiness bussiness

Games: So Linux is no good OS for the teenager that only plays 3d games! awesome!

I don't know what trillian is and I have survived, thus I guess calling it essential is not accurate.

---
There is no year of Linux, the whole claims that "Linux is not ready for the desktop" are actually guys saying "Linux is not a windows clone" which are ridiculous, I am not sure why Linux should ever try to mimic everything windows can, I also can't see why an OS should really be blamed for things like companies that don't target it completely , afaik there is absolutely no logical reason for companies like Skype, the creators of "quicken", Adobe and the game developers to target more platforms, there are certainly no limitations and with things like Java and the 300 cross platform C++ libraries it is probably easier to use them for software dev. than using the old rusty and non-portable WINAPI, in fact the only excuse for not targeting more platforms would be you are microsoft or you are secretedly allied to microsoft. If that's not the reason then you are probably incompetent.


Either way, must say, people of the world that consider photoshop to be essential, please send petitions to adobe so they port their stuff, they already do cross platform things (*cough* *apple* *cough*) not to mention they do have experience in Linux dev. (Adobe Reader anyone?) so again, there is no real reason for them to focus on 2 platforms.

karellen
June 25th, 2007, 06:16 AM
This sounds more like "Seven Tools that Linux needs to be Windows"

Either way :
- photoshop : I mean seriously, how much pro artists do you have out there that everybody really needs this tool? And how do all windows users get the money to buy Photoshop? That's something I don't get why even include it as part of the "not a chance in the desktop" as if it was an essential tool for the desktop... while it is actually an specialized tool

- Quicken and Quickbooks: Uh the world of finances, again other specialized app. So not really about "desktop" but about making it work for bussiness...

Microsoft Office : First of all, must say: the compatibility issues openoffice got with MSO formats are for very specific things! I know this since I even delivered homework in .doc format saved by ODF, so I actually think people is totally able to just email their .doc, .pps, .etc.

Regarding performance, I have not gotten that problem myself, I don't think any performance issue in OpenOffice is huge enough in comparison with also bloated MSOffice to make it not a viable choice.

Schedule BS for outlook, once again bussiness bussiness, nothing about "the Desktop" and that was the title of the thread...

Skype: Tell skype to improve their darn stuff, video in Linux is not exactly novelty or something any hard to get.

Vision: bussiness bussiness bussiness

Games: So Linux is no good OS for the teenager that only plays 3d games! awesome!

I don't know what trillian is and I have survived, thus I guess calling it essential is not accurate.

---
There is no year of Linux, the whole claims that "Linux is not ready for the desktop" are actually guys saying "Linux is not a windows clone" which are ridiculous, I am not sure why Linux should ever try to mimic everything windows can, I also can't see why an OS should really be blamed for things like companies that don't target it completely , afaik there is absolutely no logical reason for companies like Skype, the creators of "quicken", Adobe and the game developers to target more platforms, there are certainly no limitations and with things like Java and the 300 cross platform C++ libraries it is probably easier to use them for software dev. than using the old rusty and non-portable WINAPI, in fact the only excuse for not targeting more platforms would be you are microsoft or you are secretedly allied to microsoft. If that's not the reason then you are probably incompetent.


Either way, must say, people of the world that consider photoshop to be essential, please send petitions to adobe so they port their stuff, they already do cross platform things (*cough* *apple* *cough*) not to mention they do have experience in Linux dev. (Adobe Reader anyone?) so again, there is no real reason for them to focus on 2 platforms.

as long as Linux doesn't have support from the hardware makers (original drivers and so), it's not ready for the desktop. it doesn't matter whos fault it is. it's just a fact. using a webcam is by no mean a specialized tool.

vexorian
June 25th, 2007, 06:34 PM
It is ready for the desktop already, you know, no company actually got a monopoly over an specific hardware part, thus whatever company makes your webcam is not the only one that makes webcams, thus users can change hardware or simply select hardware based on its compatibility with Linux, instead of randomly buying any kind of hardware. That's good about hardware, there is no monopoly, unlike software.

I do think webcams are specialized tools, I was able to survive plenty of ages with no webcam in my computer on windows or Linux, just think that text and voice are more practical for me, anyways your post sounded as if no webcam worked on Linux so I had to make a research and google didn't seem to agree with such premise.

Linux is desktop ready, it was desktop ready 3 years ago, now your desktop might not be Linux ready, just like my desktop is not Vista ready...

ess0
June 26th, 2007, 03:44 AM
Preface: In this post, I will assume one of the main goals of Ubuntu is to gain a majority of desktop market share; this assumption is reinforced by the following quotation by Mark Shuttleworth:


Microsoft has a majority market share in the new desktop PC marketplace. This is a bug, which Ubuntu is designed to fix.

Source: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/1

________________________

In the course of beginning new threads and replying to topics, regulars of the Community Cafe will notice the Linux Desktop Readiness Thread reappear from time to time. Over the years, the thread has become a cavalcade of posts consisting of users venting their Linux frustrations of the moment, as well, of course, as replies to them. Posts such as these are rampant throughout many message boards concerning Linux, as well as communities such as Slashdot and Digg. Let us take a moment to analyze these posts (and their reactions from the Linux community) with greater depth; I am concerned that the Linux community is in many cases reacting to them in the wrong way.

First, let us examine a very common criticism of Ubuntu; one that has surely annoyed the Linux community so far to a very high degree:


Linux relies too heavily on the command line, which is far too complex to be user-friendly.

Upon sight of a statement such as this, many readers will decide that reading the post containing this statement is simply not worth their time and will begin browsing for other threads. Others will respond by stating that they are incorrect (more on this later), while some others (though a considerable minority!) might even agree.

I do think, however, that it is time to analyze statements such as the one above with greater detail. First, let us look at the statement again, with some words emphasized:


Linux relies too heavily on the command line, which is far too complex to be user-friendly.

Think about the statements in bold above. What are the definitions of "too heavily", "too complex", and "user-friendly"? What are the thresholds needed to determine if a program relies "too heavily" on something, or is become "too complex" or not "user-friendly" enough for novice users? The answer is there are none. We couldn't possibly make a strict definition of "complexity", for instance, that would be universally accepted. Thus, the statements above are mere opinions, something only felt by a user to be true. Claiming that an error has been made in response is nonsense because we have not even defined clearly what the user has stated in the first place. When we respond with


The command line is actually quite simple.

we do nothing except respond with another opinion. What is "quite simple"? When we attempt to "disprove" an opinion with another, we will very often fail, because it is unlikely that a person will suddenly express a different opinion simply because another person feels differently from him or her. Arguing about whether Linux is ready for the desktop is, in a strict sense, quite pointless. Whether one person believes Linux is ready for the desktop means almost nothing, and whether another believes that Linux is not means very little as well.

Let us examine one more common complaint:


Linux has too many desktop environments and window managers.

Again, this is another opinion, and it alone means almost nothing (at least, in the context of determining why a specific operating system is not used by a majority of users). Therefore, contesting it is almost pointless. In response, many users claim that


Linux offers choice.

Though this also simply an opinion, many share it because in this case the definition of "choice" is widely accepted in this context. One could argue that "instead of KDE, one can use GNOME", for instance. There is, however, an enormous problem with this statement: it has a distinctly positive connotation associated with it, and it is possible to change its meaning to something that means exactly the same thing, except in a negative manner. In response to "Linux offers choice", I could also claim:


Linux is in a state of disunity.

Linux is fragmented.

Linux is not consistent.

and so on. Using terminology with such connotations, then, does little to prove anything and should not be considered very convincing. In effect, I am saying the same thing you are, but am embedding my own personal feelings into it. If we strip out all connotation in this statement, we obtain


Linux has multiple programs for a specific purposes.

which is a fact. But is it a good or bad thing? Unfortunately, the moment we try to answer this question, we inevitably formulate another opinion. Personally, I believe that if a user claims that he/she does not like Linux, then it should be noted, and we should subsequently move on, accepting that fact that there will be users who are not satisfied with Linux, just as there are users that are not satisfied every other operating system used by a reasonably large number of people. If a user makes a false assertion, such as


Linux does not offer a web browser.

you should then respond with, perhaps,


There is web browsing software available for Linux; examples include Firefox and Opera.

However, if the user also states that "Linux is a poor operating system", you should realize how unlikely it is that the user will think differently simply by a post such as


No, Linux is a very good operating system and more then ready for the desktop.

Let us invert roles in such a situation. If you enjoyed using Ubuntu, would change your mind all of a sudden if someone exclaimed


Ubuntu is clearly of poor quality.

on a message board?

Finally, we have issues related to the rejection of criticism, and the need to focus on the realities of market competition. Let us consider the first example once more:


Linux relies too heavily on the command line, which is far too complex to be user-friendly.

There could be many possible reasons for why the user feels this way, some of them quite unfair. In many cases, perhaps, the user is accustomed to using other operating systems (such as Windows XP) and now expects every computer operating environment to behave exactly it does. The unfortunate reality is, however, is that we are forced to conform to the wishes of the users to gain popularity, at least to a greater extent then our competitors. Let us assume, for instance, that most users are accustomed to Windows (due to a monopoly or otherwise), and will only use it (or a very similar operating system with all its functionality). In this case, we have two options to make Ubuntu popular:

1. create an operating system with functionality similar to Windows; or
2. change the wishes of the users.

Changing the wishes of millions of users is not trivial.

Suppose that users do not use Linux because there are no widely known commercial games available for it. In this case, stating that "it is not Linux's fault that are no games for it" will not do. With such a mindset, Linux can only continue to be unpopular. Rather, the Linux community must attempt to convince game developers to develop games for it, and the Linux community must do it themselves. If this is not a possible goal, Linux developers must then find something that users like more then games, and it is the responsibility of the community, and it alone, to determine what this might be.

In addition, the notion that users should contribute to Linux if they encounter problems or missing features will certainly not be applicable in many cases. There are many users who do not know how to program, and express no desire to learn how to do so, much less write thousands of lines of code with very little in return. Similarly, we should not expect that users dissatisfied with Ubuntu tell us what they did not like about Ubuntu. In some fortunate cases, knowledgeable people generous enough to contribute their time will make suggestions for improvement. Mainly, however, it is the responsibility of Ubuntu to determine what should be done to make itself popular. This includes determining what would encourage users to use the software, as well as making the software known. Not all attempts will be successful, in much the same manner that not all new businesses will be successful. In order to increase Ubuntu's market share a substantial amount, we are forced to make great sacrifices, with the possibility of failure, to even have a chance at achieving our goals. Insisting that users force themselves to enjoy using Ubuntu will not work, regardless of whether or not the reasons dissatisfied users choose not to use Ubuntu are valid.

________________________

Disclaimer: In no part of this post do I:

1. express or imply my personal opinion of either Microsoft or Ubuntu;
2. express or imply that Ubuntu is technically inferior to other operating systems; or
3. suggest that any specific action should be taken by anyone.

yabbadabbadont
June 26th, 2007, 03:54 AM
You do realize that this thread will get folded into the monster "Linux desktop readiness" thread don't you? ;)

macogw
June 26th, 2007, 05:57 AM
Preface: In this post, I will assume one of the main goals of Ubuntu is to gain a majority of desktop market share; this assumption is reinforced by the following quotation by Mark Shuttleworth:
Ah, well, there's your problem. Poor assumption. Misinterpretation. Whatever. The goal is for the monopoly to be broken. If Microsoft goes down to only, say, 2/3 instead of 90%, yay.

Fenryr
June 26th, 2007, 06:10 AM
"I don't care, it's all psychobabble rap to me..."

karellen
June 26th, 2007, 07:00 AM
I think that linux needs market share, otherwise it will remain a hobbist os used by a bunch of hobbists. with market share comes drivers support, comes wider acceptance, comes everything for an os if it wants to be taken seriously

jrusso2
June 26th, 2007, 09:40 AM
Well I have been using Linux for 11 years now and this Linux on the desktop and market share thing has been going on about that long.

During this time Linux's desktop market share has remained pretty constant even though Linux as a desktop operating system has improved tremendously so has its competitors.

So I decided I am not worried about gaining market share and so forth, I just prefer to use it and enjoy it myself. If anyone else does too thats great.

But I am not going to worry about market share.

karellen
June 26th, 2007, 12:05 PM
It is ready for the desktop already, you know, no company actually got a monopoly over an specific hardware part, thus whatever company makes your webcam is not the only one that makes webcams, thus users can change hardware or simply select hardware based on its compatibility with Linux, instead of randomly buying any kind of hardware. That's good about hardware, there is no monopoly, unlike software.

I do think webcams are specialized tools, I was able to survive plenty of ages with no webcam in my computer on windows or Linux, just think that text and voice are more practical for me, anyways your post sounded as if no webcam worked on Linux so I had to make a research and google didn't seem to agree with such premise.

Linux is desktop ready, it was desktop ready 3 years ago, now your desktop might not be Linux ready, just like my desktop is not Vista ready...

it's not about survival. you could survival very well without a pc. this doesn't mean you don't have some expectations from your pc and from the os that's installed. and add here the software ecosystem built around that os...I hope I made myself clear

ukripper
June 26th, 2007, 01:08 PM
Market shares? What that has to do with personal choice.

mosaic2s
June 26th, 2007, 01:28 PM
i would say that linux / ubuntu has the potential with so many brains working on it to be the best. For this -

1. linux does not need to be closer to windows. It should be superior in speed, ease, stability and offer wider functionality than windows. Interface can be offered to newbies or a 5 min tutorial can do - if ubuntu is easy and faster, any good person will catch it.
2. Printer drivers - or connectivity to all accessories, like camera, mobile phones etc. For example nokia is selling high end mobiles with pc suite that syncs only with outlook in windows.
3. Developing local knowledge - that is apart from paid service - users to feel confidant that they can call their friend / colleague who can help out in ubuntu when they are stuck. Like why autocad is still popular - since today users can seek answers from a general pool of knowledge.

Sandeep

prizrak
June 26th, 2007, 01:51 PM
Microsoft has a majority market share in the new desktop PC marketplace. This is a bug, which Ubuntu is designed to fix.
As macogw already said, bug#1 doesn't imply that Ubuntu is trying for a majority market share just for one that would stop MS from having one.

Game_boy
June 26th, 2007, 04:47 PM
1. New multimedia strategy

I'm sorry, but the current codecs approach isn't working. To make it immediately accessible to new users, just for once we need an entirely new Ubuntu Media Player. This would recognise music filetypes instantly and offer to download restricted codecs. All audio and video files should open in this player by default.

2. Modify Nautilus to support persistent copying

I don't want to have to open two file manager windows to transfer files between folders - I want to copy it, press back a few times, press Paste and it appears.

3. Offer a Windows compatibility mode

Like KDE but simpler, wouldn't it be better for transitioning users to select a compatibility option that sets Ctrl+Alt+Del to System monitor, etc.?

4. Wireless networking that works

Please.

5. Help files

If you won't improve the coverage or accessibility of the help file text, at least direct users to Canonical paid support to increase funding for the project as a whole.

6. Make it even more obvious partitioning destroys data

For people that don't know what effect installing a new OS will have, the graphical installer's warnings need to be made even more visible

7. Increase searching speed

You're competing with instant search from Mac OS X and Windows.

8. Improve the base filestructure

I have this file on my desktop called sda1 that contains unopenable shadow copies of my Windows partition. I don't want to see that. I want to have a "virtual drive" on the filestructure for one partition and a "virtual drive" for my Ubuntu files.

9. Tell me where I can open my applications from

It could be made more obvious where the programs I install can actually be opened from - I install a package and then spend 5 mins. finding its launcher. Add it to the Ubuntu menu or something.

10. Wine as part of the OS

Just accept that Linux will never be popular and certainly never the sole operating system among average computer users unless Linux runs Windows binaries. Make .exe/.bin files open with Wine. Include Wine on the installer. Have a development team actively contribute to Wine. Put Wine on the auto-updater. Add Wine's download server to the default APT listings.

F-3582
June 26th, 2007, 05:18 PM
I'd like to give my two cents about this, as well:

1. This one is problematic, because all those codecs might be illegal in some countries (libdvdcss2) or covered by some restrictive license (Real or Windows Media). That's why they are disabled by default.

2. Yesss, please do this! But don't limit it just to Nautilus. An universal clipboard like the one in Windows should be obligatory to any OS!

3. Automatix already offers a few good scripts and Global Hotkeys that bring such functionality. Enabling such things by default would be swell, indeed.

4. Works for me. I didn't even know that my Wireless card had WPA2 :D

5. I never use them, but in general you are correct.

6. ...err, well, there are enough warnings in my opinion. How much more obvious do you want those warnings placed, anyway?

7. Talking about Beagle? In my opinion it is pretty fast, already.

8. It depends on how/where you select your Windows partition to be mounted. You could have chosen any name and drive letters are soooo yesterday. Nevertheless, I have to admit that especially the mounting should be dumbed down a little in the installer ;)

9. Open the console and try your luck by typing some names that come to your mind. Most packages create a launcher automatically, by the way.

10. I don't like that idea very much, because Linux apps offer much functionality natively.


However, I'd like to suggest a welcoming screen which lets you select such critical functionality mentioned by Game_boy on first start or even already during installation.

DARKGuy
June 26th, 2007, 05:18 PM
I think that linux needs market share, otherwise it will remain a hobbist os used by a bunch of hobbists. with market share comes drivers support, comes wider acceptance, comes everything for an os if it wants to be taken seriously

This guy is kinda right though...

smartboyathome
June 26th, 2007, 05:48 PM
10. Wine as part of the OS

Just accept that Linux will never be popular and certainly never the sole operating system among average computer users unless Linux runs Windows binaries. Make .exe/.bin files open with Wine. Include Wine on the installer. Have a development team actively contribute to Wine. Put Wine on the auto-updater. Add Wine's download server to the default APT listings.

Ubuntu will never support programming wine. It is almost murderous to try to program it, and it is hard to keep wine updated (since a new version comes out every ~1-2 weeks). Also, Wine takes up a lot of space on a not-so-big CD image. If you would want that, then Openoffice would probably have to go. All in all, please don't integrate Wine, it is unneeded with all the programs we have now that have similar roles like in Windows.

mlind
June 26th, 2007, 05:54 PM
2. Modify Nautilus to support persistent copying

I don't want to have to open two file manager windows to transfer files between folders - I want to copy it, press back a few times, press Paste and it appears.


I probably understood you wrong, but haven't nautilus always allowed that? You're in a folder, select file and ctrl-c to copy, press back few times and ctrl-v to paste?

lamalex
June 26th, 2007, 06:07 PM
I probably understood you wrong, but haven't nautilus always allowed that? You're in a folder, select file and ctrl-c to copy, press back few times and ctrl-v to paste?

yes... i have no idea what the OP is talking about there. To make sure I wasn't crazy I just did it. It works with keyboard shortcuts and with right clicking the mouse.

AlexC_
June 26th, 2007, 06:10 PM
Yes, I was thinking the same - mlind, it works for me.

1. You mean like we have now? If you open up a .mp3 file on a fresh install, it will offer to install the codec.

2. It already does

3. Does Windows have a Linux compatibility mode?

4. It does work, the problem is at your end for buying a wireless card/thingy that doesn't have support for Linux drivers. This is not a Linux problem, but a vendor problem. Infact, Linux has better OOB support for Wireless cards than Windows does from my experiance.

5. have you been to help.ubuntu.com? Great docs on there for pretty much anything.

6. No harm in doing that I suppose,

7. The deskbar applet I find is pretty quick, I've not tried the search in Windows or Mac so I can't really say.

8. Not sure what you mean, do you mean the file structure is 'confusing'? If so, you get used to it over time

9. Majority of applications do install a menu entry, and for the rest that don't - just type it's name into Terminal or press Alt+f2 and enter it in there, no need to find the absolute path to it.

10. Just accept that you're wrong on that.

F-3582
June 26th, 2007, 06:55 PM
I probably understood you wrong, but haven't nautilus always allowed that? You're in a folder, select file and ctrl-c to copy, press back few times and ctrl-v to paste?
Hmmm... looks like I was wrong about that one. However, whenever selecting portions of text from an application (e.g. a web adress in Firefox) and you close this application the contents of your clipboard are gone.

prizrak
June 26th, 2007, 07:08 PM
This guy is kinda right though...

Agreed. Doesn't mean we need a huge market share. Firefox got stuff accomplished with only 10%, I can see enough people who would go for Linux to give it at least that if not more. Even if 99% of them will be IT professionals it's still fine.

Way I see it is. If you want an OS that works reasonably well and will give you the most software and hardware choices at the expense of some maintenance that needs to be performed then go for Windows.*

If you want an OS that will give you extreme ease of use and stability at the expense of very limited hardware and software choices then OS X is for you.*

If you want a completely flexible OS that will give a good choice of software and hardware at the expense of research time and initial set up the Linux is a great choice.**

*Another thing to consider is DRM and vendor lock-in issues with proprietary OS's
**An added benefit is the OS is free, however there is also a certain level of vendor lock-in in a sense of getting used to the way a distro does things making it hard going for another one.

vexorian
June 26th, 2007, 07:12 PM
1. New multimedia strategy

I'm sorry, but the current codecs approach isn't working. To make it immediately accessible to new users, just for once we need an entirely new Ubuntu Media Player. This would recognise music filetypes instantly and offer to download restricted codecs. All audio and video files should open in this player by default.


This is not possible for many terrible reasons, in short, in this case the world should stop using such restricted formats, thus the only way to solve the problem is through education of the people and to avoid purchasing stuff on those formats or aiding sites that distribute in them.

Sure it sounds impossible or crazy but this is something Ubuntu can't fix alone.


2. Modify Nautilus to support persistent copying

I don't want to have to open two file manager windows to transfer files between folders - I want to copy it, press back a few times, press Paste and it appears.

Yes, and no. This is not really a nautilus problem but a wide gnome/KDE issue, "clipboard" requires you to keep an app open.

But I think that I can live without it.



3. Offer a Windows compatibility mode

Like KDE but simpler, wouldn't it be better for transitioning users to select a compatibility option that sets Ctrl+Alt+Del to System monitor, etc.?

NO, please no. Any feature that looks like even implying or letting users think that windows should be somekind of standard of how interfaces should work is something wrong to add to Ubuntu in my opinion.


4. Wireless networking that works

That's up to the kernel developers, but I agree, although I think interestd users should really try using wireless hardware that works correctly, it is the faster way



5. Help files

If you won't improve the coverage or accessibility of the help file text, at least direct users to Canonical paid support to increase funding for the project as a whole.

I don't think those are needed but that's probably me, improvement in this area is always good I guess.



6. Make it even more obvious partitioning destroys data

For people that don't know what effect installing a new OS will have, the graphical installer's warnings need to be made even more visible


Partitioning destroys data? I was aware that formatting did so, if you simply resize a partition it shouldn't have issues. Although I'd like to request canonical to encourage users to use windows' partitioner to make free space for the partition, that way if there is a bug we blame them...


7. Increase searching speed

You're competing with instant search from Mac OS X and Windows.


I guess, doesn't beagle use indexing ? Somehow I feel that gnome allows me to organize stuff so correctly that search isn't an issue for me, although the other day I used search to know where the font files were and it didn't seem to take a lot of time.



8. Improve the base filestructure

I have this file on my desktop called sda1 that contains unopenable shadow copies of my Windows partition. I don't want to see that. I want to have a "virtual drive" on the filestructure for one partition and a "virtual drive" for my Ubuntu files.


I don't know what you are talking about, what I have in the desktop is a launcher to the mounted driver which is loaded in /media/sda2 and I just browse there after the double click, perhaps you are experiencing some bug or something?



9. Tell me where I can open my applications from

It could be made more obvious where the programs I install can actually be opened from - I install a package and then spend 5 mins. finding its launcher. Add it to the Ubuntu menu or something.


It is up to the applications, I guess adding more description to the packages is good, sometimes I am not sure if what I installed is meant to be launched from terminal or ubuntu menu.


10. Wine as part of the OS

Just accept that Linux will never be popular and certainly never the sole operating system among average computer users unless Linux runs Windows binaries.


If canonical ever *Accepts* that I would consider the battle lost forever and I would uninstall ubuntu. That is certainly not true, and it is not supposed to be, Plenty of guys use Mac OS/X and it is not allowed to run windows binaries.

WINE is useful but overall a harmful project that allows software developers to be lazy.

It is up to software developers to stop being retarded and start focusing on a wider market thus using cross platform development tools.

These tools, Java, gtk , qt, wxwidgets, SDL, etc. Are even more productive that the terrible WinAPI, thus there is no real good reason to make windows/only aps anymore, in fact the only reason I can think of is that software developers are inept.



Make .exe/.bin files open with Wine. Include Wine on the installer. Have a development team actively contribute to Wine. Put Wine on the auto-updater. Add Wine's download server to the default APT listings.
__________________ And because of that, we shouldn-t really promote WINE, if anything users shouldn-t really think that ubuntu is supposed to run all windows aps. It is not meant to do that.

As my signature says, ubuntu is meant to be a better OS than windows, that is open source and totally free. It is not supposed to be a free version of windows, and I hope it never moves towards that line.

ukripper
June 26th, 2007, 07:32 PM
This guy is kinda right though...

Market share comes with advertising and for advertising it needs a lot of money, if linux would be one company like Microsoft and advertise like them then perhaps Linux would have more market share than Microsoft but to be honest I just love how linux was and is now, wont make any difference to me or linux community as a whole whether linux goes on top of the chart or below. Linux is forever open and thats what makes it an outstanding, brainstorming as millions of minds behind 1 OS to push its limit where linux becomes other name for power to the people.

Afoot
June 26th, 2007, 07:39 PM
1. New multimedia strategy

I'm sorry, but the current codecs approach isn't working. To make it immediately accessible to new users, just for once we need an entirely new Ubuntu Media Player. This would recognise music filetypes instantly and offer to download restricted codecs. All audio and video files should open in this player by default.
Doesn't Totem already do that? IMO, the current setup with Rhythmbox and Totem is pretty nice, and suffices for most users. However, I do agree on that Rhythmbox should also ask if you want to install, for instance, mp3 codecs. There's just no easy way for a new user to get his or hers mp3s to play in it.

By the way, Windows Media Player isn't really that good at playing... media. I think Ubuntu has an advantage in that regard right now, if you don't count in mp3s and dvds. It just needs some fine-tuning.



2. Modify Nautilus to support persistent copying

I don't want to have to open two file manager windows to transfer files between folders - I want to copy it, press back a few times, press Paste and it appears.
Hmm, this works for me.



4. Wireless networking that works

Please.
Works great for me. I converted two Windows users just by showing them how wireless worked in Ubuntu. :P



9. Tell me where I can open my applications from

It could be made more obvious where the programs I install can actually be opened from - I install a package and then spend 5 mins. finding its launcher. Add it to the Ubuntu menu or something.
What? All the apps I install are added to the menu automatically.



10. Wine as part of the OS

Just accept that Linux will never be popular and certainly never the sole operating system among average computer users unless Linux runs Windows binaries. Make .exe/.bin files open with Wine. Include Wine on the installer. Have a development team actively contribute to Wine. Put Wine on the auto-updater. Add Wine's download server to the default APT listings.
I think most users don't use Wine, actually. Most regular users only need the apps that come with Ubuntu. And wine isn't for average users anyway, it's a very confusing concept, and the fact that it exists in the user's home directory in an invisible folder doesn't exactly make it more user friendly. Speaking of user friendly, it's not exactly the category I'd put wine in right now... Oh, did I mention it's not that user friendly?

And I agree with Ubuntu's standing on Wine. We don't need Windows apps, Ubuntu isn't a cheap copy of Windows. It's a totally different OS, and a much better one at that!

darrenm
June 26th, 2007, 08:10 PM
Yes, I was thinking the same - mlind, it works for me.

1. You mean like we have now? If you open up a .mp3 file on a fresh install, it will offer to install the codec.

2. It already does

3. Does Windows have a Linux compatibility mode?

4. It does work, the problem is at your end for buying a wireless card/thingy that doesn't have support for Linux drivers. This is not a Linux problem, but a vendor problem. Infact, Linux has better OOB support for Wireless cards than Windows does from my experiance.

5. have you been to help.ubuntu.com? Great docs on there for pretty much anything.

6. No harm in doing that I suppose,

7. The deskbar applet I find is pretty quick, I've not tried the search in Windows or Mac so I can't really say.

8. Not sure what you mean, do you mean the file structure is 'confusing'? If so, you get used to it over time

9. Majority of applications do install a menu entry, and for the rest that don't - just type it's name into Terminal or press Alt+f2 and enter it in there, no need to find the absolute path to it.

10. Just accept that you're wrong on that.

I was just about to post pretty much exactly the same. Thanks for doing it for me.

vexorian
June 26th, 2007, 08:26 PM
I must say that I don-t like the fact all threads that somehow relate to this get merged to this thread.

prizrak
June 26th, 2007, 09:10 PM
1. New multimedia strategy

I'm sorry, but the current codecs approach isn't working. To make it immediately accessible to new users, just for once we need an entirely new Ubuntu Media Player. This would recognise music filetypes instantly and offer to download restricted codecs. All audio and video files should open in this player by default.

Feisty already does that unless I'm missing something.


2. Modify Nautilus to support persistent copying

I don't want to have to open two file manager windows to transfer files between folders - I want to copy it, press back a few times, press Paste and it appears.
Seems to work just fine here.


3. Offer a Windows compatibility mode

Like KDE but simpler, wouldn't it be better for transitioning users to select a compatibility option that sets Ctrl+Alt+Del to System monitor, etc.?
What does that have to do with Ubuntu? That is a Gnome default and that is their design choice. I have not met a Windows user who couldn't figure out how to use Gnome.

4. Wireless networking that works

Please.
That's hit or miss and with supported card I don't have a problem. You are barking up the wrong tree here, while Network-Manager should be improved in certain areas biggest issue is drivers. Linux hackers done a great job with this so far but nothing beats OEM support.

5. Help files

If you won't improve the coverage or accessibility of the help file text, at least direct users to Canonical paid support to increase funding for the project as a whole.

Have you ever even clicked on "Help and support"?

6. Make it even more obvious partitioning destroys data

For people that don't know what effect installing a new OS will have, the graphical installer's warnings need to be made even more visible
How more obvious could it possibly get? Are we trying to make an OS for human beings of mentally challenged?


7. Increase searching speed

You're competing with instant search from Mac OS X and Windows.
Ever heard of Beagle? Believe me MS instant search is pretty damn far from instant (or useful)


8. Improve the base filestructure

I have this file on my desktop called sda1 that contains unopenable shadow copies of my Windows partition. I don't want to see that. I want to have a "virtual drive" on the filestructure for one partition and a "virtual drive" for my Ubuntu files.

What does that have to with file structure? It's a problem with mounting your Windows partition.

9. Tell me where I can open my applications from

It could be made more obvious where the programs I install can actually be opened from - I install a package and then spend 5 mins. finding its launcher. Add it to the Ubuntu menu or something.

That is an application packaging issue not Ubuntu. An application has to provide a .desktop file in order for the launcher to get added to the menu. From What I have seen there have been quite a bit of improvement in that area.


10. Wine as part of the OS

Just accept that Linux will never be popular and certainly never the sole operating system among average computer users unless Linux runs Windows binaries. Make .exe/.bin files open with Wine. Include Wine on the installer. Have a development team actively contribute to Wine. Put Wine on the auto-updater. Add Wine's download server to the default APT listings.

I don't run Windows binaries and seem to not have a single issue. Wine is already in the repos if you want it. Moreover it's far from perfect, I couldn't get Starcraft to even install and that is a very old program. Simple fact is that Wine is far from being a solution to not being able to run Windows binaries, to make matters worse it mostly runs popular stuff. Considering that popular stuff tends to have a Linux native alternative anyway there doesn't seem to be much of a point. It's the obscure or specialized applications that rarely get Linux alternatives (or at least not as full featured) and will also not run in Wine.

You, like others before you make the mistake of thinking that:
1) An OS's technical quality has a damn thing to do with it's market success.
2) Everyone has same needs, hardware, etc... as you do. Simple fact is that out of all the people I know 90% of them would be completely fine using Ubuntu if they had bought one of the new Dell boxes. Simply put Ubuntu is not for everyone (neither is Windows or OS X for that matter) and you have to choose features that are important to you personally while dealing with the flaws. That's not to say that there is nothing to be improved in Ubuntu and other disro's, there are plenty.

I must say that I don-t like the fact all threads that somehow relate to this get merged to this thread.
1) We've heard all this before multiple times, for evidence you can just look at this thread.
2) Devs don't read the user forum they are too busy making a kick *** OS for us.
3) 99.9% of these suggestions are pure garbage basically asking us to make Ubuntu into Windows or are plain impossible to implement (like hardware support for certain things).

forrestcupp
June 26th, 2007, 09:27 PM
If you really want instant search in Windows, you have to install something like Google Desktop and index your drive. This is no different than installing Beagle in Linux and indexing your files with it.

Almost all application executables are either put in /usr/bin (short for binary file), or /usr/games. How hard is that to find? It's not any harder than C:\Program Files, then searching through all of the subfolders in that directory hoping to figure out which exe is the right one to start a program.

vexorian
June 27th, 2007, 07:05 PM
1) We've heard all this before multiple times, for evidence you can just look at this thread.
2) Devs don't read the user forum they are too busy making a kick *** OS for us.
3) 99.9% of these suggestions are pure garbage basically asking us to make Ubuntu into Windows or are plain impossible to implement (like hardware support for certain things).

I know, but it is still pretty confusing and this thread has got like 761 pages? Not to mention that The original intend seems to be a poll while it is full of posts that are complaints... I think that a forum for complaints would have been good or renaming this thread into "complaints" or something.

prizrak
June 27th, 2007, 11:03 PM
I know, but it is still pretty confusing and this thread has got like 761 pages? Not to mention that The original intend seems to be a poll while it is full of posts that are complaints... I think that a forum for complaints would have been good or renaming this thread into "complaints" or something.

We used to have Testimonials section but I guess it works better this way. I say that you should pitch that idea in the forum discussion section where the mods hang out :)

julian67
June 27th, 2007, 11:59 PM
If you have a supported network card then networking and especially wifi is now superb with Network Manager in several distros including Feisty. I have an Asus laptop (which works fine with no restricted drivers) with OEM XP Pro pre-installed and it has Intel Proset to manage the wireless connections under Windows. I can't get it to work with WPA TKIP using Intel's own gui, but using Ubuntu on the same machine it detected the network, prompted me for the passphrase, I typed it, it stored it in the gnome-keyring and simultaneously i was connected. It took maybe 10 or 15 seconds and was flawless. I have to say that it was also this easy within Windows when i disabled the Intel tools, but overall I prefer the network-manager and gnome-keyring combination for storing keys as this way they are both secure and easily accessible to me, whereas in Windows the keys are obscured from the legitimate user and far too easily accessed using cracking/security testing tools. I also have a Lenovo laptop which works just as nicely and has all hardware supported out of the box in Ubuntu except a volume rocker switch which requires a Win binary driver (!) but the volume hotkeys work anyway.

I think most of the criticisms outlined are invalid, and have more to do with unfamiliarity and some misunderstanding/user error than anything else. I'd slightly agree that copying and pasting is occasionally a little frustrating but on the other hand when I use Windows I can't have stuff copied merely by highlighting.....everything is click click click and rather slow and the pasting is one time only whereas in Gnome it's repeatable indefinitely, so both methods have some weaknesses and it isn't a major issue, just something to know/remember.

hellomeow
June 28th, 2007, 02:08 AM
And it is Windows. It is that simple.

Why do people make this so complicated? Why do have a 700+ page thread with pointless debates? The answer is clear: it is Windows, and only it.

When a user won't use the command line, who do we have to blame? Windows, naturally one of the only operating systems with use of such an interface seemingly discouraged. You know, its almost as if Microsoft wants to make users use an operating system just like theirs.

"I want to play Counter Strike!" exclaims a hopeless new Ubuntu user. "Ubuntu doesn't have something exactly like it, so I will run away and cry!!!!!"

Some drivers aren't available for Ubuntu. Why? Because companies don't care to release them, not, at least, when 90% of their market is using Windows!

"Ggharfjxljfkl;jgl;djsf;ajklaj!!" cries Mr. Office Professional, after finding out that (insert minor feature here) is not available for OpenOffice. Judging by the ensuing reckless head-pounding and office property smashing, it does not appear that Ubuntu would be quite ideal. Where did Mr. O. Professional find (insert minor feature here)? He found it in Windows, silly.

"I must have (insert media player or multimedia codecs here) so that I can listen to Senses Fail!!" asserts the typical high-schooler. He can't listen to Senses Fail (or He Is Legend, for that matter) because all of the songs he downloaded off Lime Wire weren't in Ogg format. And why would he downloaded them in any formats besides the quality options available, such as WMA? Windows doesn't play Ogg by default....

"Even worse," the high-schooler continues, "my pink and black Myspace profile looks so horrible! It looked fine in IE after I dumped those 250 lines of CSS or whatever that is I copied from freecoolmyspacelayouts.free.fr into my About Me section!!!"

When an unfortunate new user gets ready to vent his frustrations on the Ubuntu message boards to let everyone know about all of Ubuntu's problems (which are there because he or she says they are, darn it!), he will take the word "Windows" and complexify it to create numerous paragraphs. Let's take a look at the the-reasons-why-you-think-you-hate-Ubuntu-and-the-reasons-why-you-REALLY-hate-Ubuntu table:

______________

Reason: "The command line is too hard! T_T"
Real reason: "In Windows, I am used to not using the command line."

Reason: "My hardware isn't detected!!"
Real reason: "I decided to buy hardware only for Windows. Silly me."

Reason: "I don't wanna edit text files!!"
Real reason: "I have not learned to use text editors or edit text files, because I have used Windows."

Reason: "I want to play games."
Real reason: "I want to play games on Ubuntu, but I can't because some overwhelming percentage of the Earth's population uses Windows. So I will get a Wii and get over myself now, if I want to continue to use Linux, that is."
______________


It is clear. Every reason you don't like Ubuntu can be drawn back to that essential obstacle, Windows. All posts about this matter which don't simply contain the word "Windows" are redundant.

I am the same way. Because there are these small, little things that are missing in Linux, I continue to use the very operating system I grew up with and have banished Debian to my server, where it awaits faithfully for my Filezilla sftp connection request.

So please, stop wasting valuable disk space on the Ubuntu servers by keeping the Linux Desktop Readiness Thread. Delete, and subsequently shred it, to ensure that it can never be recovered somehow. Then make a sticky containing EXACTLY these words:

______________

Here is the reason why you don't like Ubuntu

windows
______________


and end it there. As a matter of fact, it is time to deprecate even the concept of messing around. From now on, the Ubuntu mods must screen all comments being made right as they are being typed. Upon the slightest evidence that post might involve criticism of Ubuntu, forcefully redirect the newly enlightened user's browser to the post above. "OOOOHHHH!!!" the newly enlightened user will exclaim as he drops to his knees. "Now, I finally understand."

DR_K13
June 28th, 2007, 02:18 AM
http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/3521/angstzd2.gif

@trophy
June 28th, 2007, 02:31 AM
Whoa, dude... I want you to reduce your daily intake of caffeine by about half, ok?

As for what you said... you're absolutely right about some people not liking anything that's different. The question is, what do you want to do about it? Cause the way I see it, you have three choices:

1: Abandon them. If these clueless lusers don't have the cognitive capacity to intuitively understand how to compile device drivers then they are dead weight and Linux is better off without them. Only those who are worthy of such a great operating system may accompany us in our valiant struggle against mediocrity.

2: Make Linux exactly like Windows, down to the smallest detail, so that these users have a perfectly seamless transition, and years later they may not even know they're running Linux. Sacrifices must be made on the road to total world domination!

3: Accept the fact that the incumbancy of Windows is a problem for us, and work around it. They're used to downloading WMAs because that's what they've done before. They're used to using Microsoft Office because that's what they've used before. Getting mad at them is both pointless and counterproductive. Microsoft has a vested interest in making sure they never get beyond that stage, and Microsoft's behavior in this area will get worse as they become more threatened by Linux. The best we can do is create better products and try to educate people about why they're better.

I don't know about you, but I'm gonna have to go with #3.

Fenryr
June 28th, 2007, 02:38 AM
Gee, SOMEONE got up on the wrong side of the coprocessor this morning...RELAX...dude...Take a moment...BREATHE...Again...Now, put down that axe...*l*

kamaboko
June 28th, 2007, 02:39 AM
You forgot to mention Apple. Some people don't use Ubuntu b/c they like their MacBook or whatever.

steveneddy
June 28th, 2007, 03:00 AM
I was just thinking that.

hellomeow
June 28th, 2007, 03:12 AM
You forgot to mention Apple. Some people don't use Ubuntu b/c they like their MacBook or whatever.
Yes, but that doesn't seem to be the case quite anywhere near as often. I imagine Apple users would have an easier time making the transition to Ubuntu then Windows users normally would. I have not read one thread about an Apple user being dissatisfied with Ubuntu (then again, I didn't read all 7,000 posts in the LDRT, either).

reacocard
June 28th, 2007, 03:24 AM
Whoa, dude... I want you to reduce your daily intake of caffeine by about half, ok?

I'm not sure half would be enough. Maybe 90%? :D


IMHO, the problem isn't so much windows, as it is people. People don't like things to change, they don't want to try new things. When they come to Linux, things are different, which to them is strange and scary. Some of them stick it out, and find it's not as bad as they thought, and that change can be a good thing. Others try it, decide it's not for them because it doesn't act like Windows, and give up. The latter aren't going to be happy with anything except a windows clone, so there's not point trying to cater to them, but the former are those we should try to bring into the Linux fold. They are the people who will become a constructive part of our community, and help make Linux a better environment for future users. Eventually, with their help, Linux may become the dominant desktop operating system, at which point the second group will start to come on board, simply because they'll grow up with Linux, and Windows will be as strange and unfamiliar to them as Linux is now.

FuturePilot
June 28th, 2007, 03:26 AM
I see exactly where the OP is coming from. Everything is designed for Windows and then people go making comparisons like it worked this way in Windows but it works differently in Linux.

Fenryr
June 28th, 2007, 03:40 AM
I see exactly where the OP is coming from. Everything is designed for Windows and then people go making comparisons like it worked this way in Windows but it works differently in Linux.

My Holden isn't the same as the Chevy I grew up with, either, but that don't stop me from changin' CARS every few years or so...Sure, they're all designed for basically the same JOB, but they approach it from slightly different DIRECTIONS...

slavik
June 28th, 2007, 03:50 AM
When I get up in the morning, I find that one of my patitions is not mysterious ly gone because of power outage causing a corrupted mft ... Windows!

When I get up the next day, I find that the main partition with the isntall is not there ... Windows!

here's another thought, with Windows, you can't have a server running RAID5 for user home directories (mounted via nsf and for easy abckup). Apps are local, user files aren't and when you stream a video over gigabit, it's not bad :) (gigabit is max 125MB/sec which is faster than most hard drives). even 10mbit (12.5mb/sec) is not bad

kamaboko
June 28th, 2007, 04:13 AM
Yes, but that doesn't seem to be the case quite anywhere near as often. I imagine Apple users would have an easier time making the transition to Ubuntu then Windows users normally would. I have not read one thread about an Apple user being dissatisfied with Ubuntu (then again, I didn't read all 7,000 posts in the LDRT, either).

I've shown my Ubuntu laptop to a number of Apple users and they've expressed no desire to change or even try it. Why? B/c they don't want to deal with command line, or search for workarounds to support their peripherals. This isn't a Windows thing. It's a "who has the broadest range of support" thing. And before you begin to harp on how many Linux users there are in the Linux community that can offer help, it pales in comparison to the MS user base. Furthermore, walk into any computer store and randomly pick 20 items (e.g., printers, video cards, NIC's, digital cameras, etc) and see how many of those install with Linux and MS that "DON'T" require some workaround or jury-rigging. MS will come out ahead. That's the issue. Why does computing have to be some arduous task?

juxtaposed
June 28th, 2007, 04:30 AM
Furthermore, walk into any computer store and randomly pick 20 items (e.g., printers, video cards, NIC's, digital cameras, etc) and see how many of those install with Linux and MS that "DON'T" require some workaround or jury-rigging. MS will come out ahead. That's the issue.

Or, buy 20 different computers, wipe the hard drive. Then install windows and a linux distro; see which one works best with the hardware. I'd be pretty sure it would be linux.

Windows is near unuseable without a whole bunch of drivers for me; Linux works with just about everything perfectly with minimal effort from me at all (seriously, like 10 seconds...).

kamaboko
June 28th, 2007, 04:40 AM
Or, buy 20 different computers, wipe the hard drive. Then install windows and a linux distro; see which one works best with the hardware. I'd be pretty sure it would be linux.

Windows is near unuseable without a whole bunch of drivers for me; Linux works with just about everything perfectly with minimal effort from me at all (seriously, like 10 seconds...).

I'll take that bet any day. Pick up 20 new computers with the latest hardware. Let's have some fun with it. Each one will have a different kind of NIC (e.g., USB wireless, PCI wireless), from a slew of well known and not-so-well known manufacturers. The same can be said for video cards, peripherals, etc (e.g., 20 different brands, models of printers, digital cameras). We'll see which OS supports the most.

mdsmedia
June 28th, 2007, 04:44 AM
I'll take that bet any day. Pick up 20 new computers with the latest hardware. Let's have some fun with it. Each one will have a different kind of NIC (e.g., USB wireless, PCI wireless), from a slew of well known and not-so-well known manufacturers. The same can be said for video cards, peripherals, etc (e.g., 20 different brands, models of printers, digital cameras). We'll see which OS supports the most.Or more accurately, which OS is SUPPORTED the most, by third party drivers.

That's NOT the OS supporting the hardware, it's the hardware supporting the OS.

ubuntuman001
June 28th, 2007, 05:00 AM
The real, imminent and absolute true fact, is that people (especially, umm, like 90% of the people that have access to computers [yes, that might be an exaggeration, but maybe not]) DON'T CARE at all about how an OS works, or its advantages/disadvantages. Most people are not geeks and don't want to be geeks because that disrupts their "social status" (aka teens don't think geeks are "cool")

So ALL THEY REALLY CARE ABOUT, is IF they are capable of doing the things they want. And that, sorry to say, doesn't go far beyond chatting, email, MS Word, myspace, facebook, and itunes (or for the illegal users, limewire). Since windows does all of these quite well (though maybe there are problems sometimes, it's not enough to make them say "O to hell with this! I am going to take the time to find out my options"; anyway, most of them just don't know there are other options, so they just work their way around the problem.) they just stick with it and don't think about it too much.

Also, since windows is preinstalled on almost all OEM machines, they think it's the only way in the world to fill their computer cravings.

Also to mention, teens and young people in general, will want to use windows just for the fact that they would be embarrassed if their friends caught him/her using something none-windows, which to them would automatically = a geek.

These are true facts, none can deny them, and these are especially prevalent in the US and among teens.

As for this thread, I am with @trophy, especially the 3rd post in the thread he made.

@trophy
June 28th, 2007, 05:18 AM
The way I look at it is this: It's like automatic and manual transmission cars.

There's a significant learning curve with manual transmission cars. They're not just different to learn, they're harder to learn. Same as Linux is not just different from Windows, it's also harder because you don't have whatever manufacturer that made your hardware holding your hand.

Most people only know how to drive an automatic. I'm ok with that. I like driving a stick better cause the gas milage is greatly improved, but it doesn't bother me at all if they never, ever learn to drive a stick, or if they try it, decide it's too hard, and go back to driving a slushbox.

Except for this: computer-wise it's as if we live in some sort of bizarro world in which Ford only makes automatic transmission vehicles and actively tries to suppress mechanics from servicing Chevys. Therefore parts for my manual transmission car are extremely hard to find, and after-market anything won't fit unless I very painstakingly file everything down to the correct size, redrill everything to fit the right size and configuration of mounting bolts...

No wonder outsiders look at it and go "Why do all of that when I already have a car that gets me from A to B?"

jdrodrig
June 28th, 2007, 05:21 AM
I think ubuntuman001 touched a very fundamental point that involve moving beyond offering a stable OS. People use computers to perform tasks and software developers either propietary or open source oriented aim to fulfill those needs. Microsoft, for instance, allegedly spent million of dollars on focus groups to come up with Office 2007's new features.

The point is, as long as OpenSource software falls behind in listening to what people need in their software and implementing it, it would be difficult to convince people to switch beyond the usual argument "what do you want, a beautiful but unstable Office 2007 or a stable virus free OpenOffice?"

hellomeow
June 28th, 2007, 05:35 AM
The way I look at it is this: It's like automatic and manual transmission cars.

There's a significant learning curve with manual transmission cars. They're not just different to learn, they're harder to learn. Same as Linux is not just different from Windows, it's also harder because you don't have whatever manufacturer that made your hardware holding your hand.

Most people only know how to drive an automatic. I'm ok with that. I like driving a stick better cause the gas milage is greatly improved, but it doesn't bother me at all if they never, ever learn to drive a stick, or if they try it, decide it's too hard, and go back to driving a slushbox.

Except for this: computer-wise it's as if we live in some sort of bizarro world in which Ford only makes automatic transmission vehicles and actively tries to suppress mechanics from servicing Chevys. Therefore parts for my manual transmission car are extremely hard to find, and after-market anything won't fit unless I very painstakingly file everything down to the correct size, redrill everything to fit the right size and configuration of mounting bolts...

No wonder outsiders look at it and go "Why do all of that when I already have a car that gets me from A to B?"

In a true Windows-user like fashion, I prefer the ease of use of an automatic transmission to the performance of stick shift. There are many who would argue that Linux is easier to use and doesn't require as much learning, though.

Spr0k3t
June 28th, 2007, 05:53 AM
Bravo! This is the very reason why the argument of "Windows is not Linux" works so well.

kamaboko
June 28th, 2007, 06:07 AM
I think ubuntuman001 touched a very fundamental point that involve moving beyond offering a stable OS. People use computers to perform tasks and software developers either propietary or open source oriented aim to fulfill those needs. Microsoft, for instance, allegedly spent million of dollars on focus groups to come up with Office 2007's new features.

The point is, as long as OpenSource software falls behind in listening to what people need in their software and implementing it, it would be difficult to convince people to switch beyond the usual argument "what do you want, a beautiful but unstable Office 2007 or a stable virus free OpenOffice?"

Unstable Office 2007?? It's apparent that you don't have a copy. I've been using it for nearly a month and it is awesome. OpenOffice doesn't even compare (which is what I'm using with Ubuntu).

jdrodrig
June 28th, 2007, 07:03 AM
Hi kamaboko, my office 2007 example was mostly a hypothetical example of the limits of the stability argument...no matter how beautiful it is (that I agree, it is a great product) it is still sitting on top of winxp, isn't?

But I must say, I recently run into some "freezing" problems while using PivotTables with a decent amount of data in Excel 2007 but still, OpenOffice is not good enough *for my needs* so far, so dual boot is my everyday task.

Cheers!

OzzyFrank
June 28th, 2007, 07:13 AM
Personally I LOVE those comments about Ubuntu not being ready to replace Windows, even though many people - including total Linux newbies - have not only migrated to it, but have also ditched their Windows installs. It all comes down to attitude; some people are happy to learn, others take the "But it took me so long to learn Windows, why should I do it all over again??" approach (so really shouldn't be venturing anywhere near ANY Linux distro, obviously).

To those out there who get even slightly maddened by people like this who flame Ubuntu and Linux in general, please try to understand how frustrating it is for these people. Imagine constantly putting yourself through Linux Geek Hell when you know you just haven't got it in you to make a real go of it - can you imagine how frustrating it would be to put yourself through that?! I would get on the forums and flame the distro too, since I would need some sort of release for the inner turmoil I would have caused myself, and directing that outword is the most constructive way to do so.

Long Live Windows - I want to carry Bill Gates's love child!

karellen
June 28th, 2007, 07:15 AM
Linux is not Windows, Windows is not Linux, apples are not oranges, knowledge is not a single way road, comfort it's not stupidity, habit is not laziness, time is not infinite, there are few facts but many many perspectives...
cheers and enjoy the information age
:)