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slimdog360
October 25th, 2006, 05:57 AM
SUPRISE!!!!!!!!! linux is different to windows. ANOTHER SUPRISE!!!!!!!!!!!! Windows apps don't run on linux.
In conclusion, Me caring = Wishful Thinking

Opsidian
October 25th, 2006, 06:02 AM
SUPRISE!!!!!!!!! linux is different to windows. ANOTHER SUPRISE!!!!!!!!!!!! Windows apps don't run on linux.
In conclusion, Me caring = Wishful Thinking
My Mac apps don't run in Windows either.

23meg
October 25th, 2006, 06:36 AM
The time and human energy wasted on this thread alone could have fixed a handful of bugs, spotted a dozen, or implemented a couple of notable features in an open source app. Looking at aysiu's pile (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=219243) in this context, I'm starting to feel the newcomer whining is costing us a lot.

Maybe we should have teams to handle newcomer whining? A separate section? Whatever, but really, every minute we spend in these useless debates is a minute we don't spend triaging and reporting bugs, coding, documenting, promoting etc.

Take a minute to look at aysiu's pile and think this over, and next time you see a newcomer whining like this, think of what better you can do than to respond to them.

ade234uk
October 25th, 2006, 08:07 AM
Easy? Maybe for you and maybe even for me. But trust me that the average user will run scared. There are so many things wrong with Linux that I really need to take my time in putting them down.

For example I don't even agree with the filesystem structure of Unix. Why not separate from the root the users data, the system files, and the system preferences/custom options?

Everything has to be rethinked from scratch in terms of user interface and in terms of a users point of view. It has to be a USERíS TOOL. It just has to be perfect in all the ways if itís to mach Windows.

You dont agree with the file structure in Linux. What are you on about? Ok if you dont agree with the file structure of Linux write your own OS if you are clever enough.

ade234uk
October 25th, 2006, 08:13 AM
I don't think linux should be a second windows or a clone.

I think Linux has to take the good ideeas from Windows. Windows has more good things than bad things if look from the users point
of view.

What the ****!! Get with the programme, Windows has been taking ideas from Linux and Mac for years.

Noticed how Vista now requires you to login at the start? Noticed how Vista has an improved shell so that admin can work from the command line.

mssever
October 25th, 2006, 08:23 AM
Questions:

Is MacOS windowish ? (I think noÖ)
Do I see command lines &/or textmode configs in MacOS? (NO)One of the first things I find myself doing if I'm forced to use a Mac is to open up the terminal and use the command line. And then be annoyed that the CLI follows BSD syntax, not GNU.

Is MacOS UserFriendly! (YES)Depends on who you ask. My answer is no. Whether a system is user-friendly depends greatly on the user. I've used MacOSX very little, and when I do, I find myself annoyed that it doesn't work like Linux, and that it takes quite a bit of effort to accomplish some things that would be a breeze in Linux. Granted, if I gave MacOS more time, I might feel differently. But my point is that different operating systems work differently, and whatever is the most user-friendly is probably whatever you're most familiar with.

cunawarit
October 25th, 2006, 08:33 AM
Is MacOS windowish ? (I think noÖ)
Do I see command lines &/or textmode configs in MacOS? (NO)
Is MacOS UserFriendly! (YES)

1) No
2) No
3) Only if you take the time to learn how to use it.

I have used Mac OS X for probably a grand total of 2 hours, two incredibly frustrating and confusing hours. Why? Because I didnít have the time to learn how to use it, I just had to sit down and use it.

This is exactly what a lot of users do with Linux distros, they sit down for an hour or two trying to do things they do with Windows and then conclude that the system sucks.

I donít think Mac OS sucks, I simply recognize that I donít know how to use it.

Cynical
October 25th, 2006, 08:43 AM
For example I don't even agree with the filesystem structure of Unix. Why not separate from the root the users data, the system files, and the system preferences/custom options?

I don't think you understand. The users data is seperated, in the /home/user directory. All of the users preferences are also located in that directory.

aysiu
October 25th, 2006, 08:48 AM
I don't think you understand. The users data is seperated, in the /home/user directory. All of the users preferences are also located in that directory.
Linux:
/home/username

Mac OS X:
/Users/username

Windows:
C:\Documents and Settings\username

sabredog
October 25th, 2006, 08:48 AM
It's not because of the market share? That's a good laugh!

You think Dell preinstalls Windows because it thinks Windows is the best-quality operating system and not because they'd go bankrupt installing an operating system with a 1% or less market share? Do you think commercial software companies create Windows binaries because Windows is a superior operating system and not because of its dominant market share? You think hardware manufacturers are sure to include a CD-ROM with Windows drivers because of anything other than market share?



Now I do agree with this. The sole reason so much software and hardware is written specifically for windows is market share.

A new user pops out and purchases a PC, it comes with XP. That user is not asked what OS he/she wants either. They want a PC and it comes with an OEM installation of XP.

I have forgotten the amount of times a new user has asked me why they do not have Word or Excel on their brand spanking new PC and are horrified that they have to fork out an extra AU$300 for a copy of the latest version of Office so they can use the PC like their work one.

I would like to see more companies offering a choice of OS instead of just Windows XP. But as Microsoft has the market share new users will simply chose XP as an OS and not the alternatives.

Perhaps Vista sales will drop and Ubuntu will quietly slip in and claim the retail vacuum left behind.

sabredog
October 25th, 2006, 08:54 AM
Hehehe. I miss my C64.

I have a dusty abacus next to my desk if you want it?

Only problem is that it has an "OS/2 Warp" sticker on it.

sabredog
October 25th, 2006, 09:06 AM
A good OS for anybody must be extremely user-friendly; a kid should handle operating, also providing full advanced usability for advanced users!
I remind about MacOS X success as user-friendly OS! Why MacOS is so beloved by its users? I believe Ubuntu must learn from there!

Better ask my kids that as their PC's are all internet enabled LAN connected Ubuntu desktops. So currentlythey are very happy and have a giggle when their mates who run XP get clobbered with spyware and viruses.

A few quick lessons to show them where everything resides as opposed to XP and they have no issues using Ubuntu. My 16 year old types all her assignments using Open Office with nil issues.

XP is now just for games - a Wintendo if you will.

argie
October 25th, 2006, 09:21 AM
My initial reaction to this thread was "Oh no, not another one." and I'm sticking to that.


Out of interest, what's wrong with Inkscape? It looks and works the same as any similar app i've ever used, though no doubt it's missing some functionality you require. It's a beautifully made application though.
Yeah, I agree, Inkscape has a very normal interface. Only problem for me is that the toolbar to the left isn't all the way to the left, there's that little space :) .


XP is now just for games - a Wintendo if you will.
:D

janbockaert
October 25th, 2006, 10:10 AM
Maybe we should have teams to handle newcomer whining? A separate section?

Maybe it was a joke? but I do think we could do with a "switching" team / section. In my experience, linux-pro's (the ones that make this forum so great) have little understanding of the frustrations a fresh switcher encounters when he leaves MS. I have a friend (an uber-linux-pro) who kept telling me i should install fedora if i wanted to get to know linux. He was using fedora/ red hat for years and liked it very much. At that time, (fedora core 1) the only way to install programs, was by using the CLI yum in fedora. He did not understand why that was a no go for me. It could have been avoided if he pointed me directly to suse at the time (no ubuntu then).

Indeed, the linux- pro's should not spend time arguing with switchers that don't have a clue. The should not spend time hunting these switchers back to redmond, they should answer really important threads on this forum. And leave the pile to people (like me) who don't have the knowledge to hunt or fix bugs, but still kind of remember what it was to switch from MS to ubuntu/linux.

So, if anyone can start a team/ section called switching, let me know, i am in. (can i start a section myself?)

Artificial Intelligence
October 25th, 2006, 10:15 AM
You better do a request/suggestion on the feedback forum, janbockaert. There's a better chance that one of the admins sees it.

.t.
October 25th, 2006, 10:34 AM
Please don't eat my brains!

23meg
October 25th, 2006, 11:22 AM
Indeed, the linux- pro's should not spend time arguing with switchers that don't have a clue. The should not spend time hunting these switchers back to redmond, they should answer really important threads on this forum. And leave the pile to people (like me) who don't have the knowledge to hunt or fix bugs, but still kind of remember what it was to switch from MS to ubuntu/linux.

That's not exactly what I meant, but close. It's what tried to be done with the old "Green Team", a team of handholders, basically.

Where I differ is: such a team would not only understand and amend a newcomer's typical frustrations, but also debunk typical newcomer myths, clear up misunderstandings, give the newcomer some historical and technical context on why things are working the way they are instead of the way they figured they should be after one hour of usage, etc. Also give the nastier ones the warnings they deserve, discourage others from responding if they're trolling, so on.

esaym
October 25th, 2006, 11:26 AM
Hands down, I feel bad for using ubuntu because it is just too easy!

darkghost
October 25th, 2006, 11:33 AM
Read this. It'll explain everything you need to know about all this "Linux desktop" discussion:
http://www.psychocats.net/essays/linuxdesktopmyth

Very interesting article. I think I'll print a copy and keep it for friends who ask me: why linux on your laptop ?

Dark

varvar
October 25th, 2006, 11:36 AM
Out of interest, what's wrong with Inkscape? It looks and works the same as any similar app i've ever used, though no doubt it's missing some functionality you require. It's a beautifully made application though.

As I said, Gimp & Inkscape are apps for graphic enthusiasts (like Photoshop Elements), they are far from being professional. Give me the pro tools to work with, and Iím ready to learn ugly command-linesÖ


Ah, OSX does have a CLI. After all, it is based on a modified version of BSD called 'Darwin.' (See below)

The reason that a lot of Linux distros still rely heavily on using the CLI is because there's no getting around the fact that it is far more efficient than a GUI for performing a wide array of different tasks -- and it is much easier to explain communicate solutions by reference to command input, than a GUI. However, if you prefer doing everything the point-and-click way there are distros like Freespire around.

I didn't said nothing about eliminateing the way Linux is, I speak about just changing the interfece; u are familiar with command lines, very well, but I & other ppl don want to be familiar with them. Did u know that Mac OS X have inside also Mac OS 9 for users who don wanted to switch, at least at the begineing. (I started with OS9 on an acient Mac, jumped on the last G4 with OSX, first I had to work in OS9, and when I switched to first G5 I was familiar with OSX)


One of the first things I find myself doing if I'm forced to use a Mac is to open up the terminal and use the command line. And then be annoyed that the CLI follows BSD syntax, not GNU.
Depends on who you ask. My answer is no. Whether a system is user-friendly depends greatly on the user. I've used MacOSX very little, and when I do, I find myself annoyed that it doesn't work like Linux, and that it takes quite a bit of effort to accomplish some things that would be a breeze in Linux. Granted, if I gave MacOS more time, I might feel differently. But my point is that different operating systems work differently, and whatever is the most user-friendly is probably whatever you're most familiar with.


1)
I have used Mac OS X for probably a grand total of 2 hours, two incredibly frustrating and confusing hours. Why? Because I didnít have the time to learn how to use it, I just had to sit down and use it.
This is exactly what a lot of users do with Linux distros, they sit down for an hour or two trying to do things they do with Windows and then conclude that the system sucks.
I donít think Mac OS sucks, I simply recognize that I donít know how to use it.


Better ask my kids that as their PC's are all internet enabled LAN connected Ubuntu desktops. So currentlythey are very happy and have a giggle when their mates who run XP get clobbered with spyware and viruses.
A few quick lessons to show them where everything resides as opposed to XP and they have no issues using Ubuntu. My 16 year old types all her assignments using Open Office with nil issues.
XP is now just for games - a Wintendo if you will.


Maybe it was a joke? but I do think we could do with a "switching" team / section. In my experience, linux-pro's (the ones that make this forum so great) have little understanding of the frustrations a fresh switcher encounters when he leaves MS. I have a friend (an uber-linux-pro) who kept telling me i should install fedora if i wanted to get to know linux. He was using fedora/ red hat for years and liked it very much. At that time, (fedora core 1) the only way to install programs, was by using the CLI yum in fedora. He did not understand why that was a no go for me. It could have been avoided if he pointed me directly to suse at the time (no ubuntu then).

Indeed, the linux- pro's should not spend time arguing with switchers that don't have a clue. The should not spend time hunting these switchers back to redmond, they should answer really important threads on this forum. And leave the pile to people (like me) who don't have the knowledge to hunt or fix bugs, but still kind of remember what it was to switch from MS to ubuntu/linux.
So, if anyone can start a team/ section called switching, let me know, i am in. (can i start a section myself?)


The time and human energy wasted on this thread alone could have fixed a handful of bugs, spotted a dozen, or implemented a couple of notable features in an open source app. Looking at aysiu's pile (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=219243) in this context, I'm starting to feel the newcomer whining is costing us a lot.
Maybe we should have teams to handle newcomer whining? A separate section? Whatever, but really, every minute we spend in these useless debates is a minute we don't spend triaging and reporting bugs, coding, documenting, promoting etc.
Take a minute to look at aysiu's pile and think this over, and next time you see a newcomer whining like this, think of what better you can do than to respond to them.

Any OS need for a newcomer at least little training. But how big is that little? How intuitive is an app or OS depends on how easy (user-friendly) is the interface!

Just to give an example, that so called Control Panel from Win, or left click on MyComputerÖ on MacOS u can drag this into that little fancy program bar/launcher from the bottom, when u need them they are just there! U canít do this simpler just with voice command! Few smart intuitive options, checkboxes and all is done!
Another oneÖ as I was a newcomer into MacOS I made some small mistake and a small app didnít work anymoreÖ hmmm. I put the OS-X Install CD, 1 or 2 clicks, and then all the process was simpleÖ I left office going to a coffe downtown, when I was beck, the problem fixed like it never was!

Tell me a simpler way!

I understand that a lot of ppl involved with Linux are developers, they know a lot of things, they also like to be inside the things, but not everybody is like them! Lot of ppl even donít want to know an OS exists! They just want to se that machine working! How? Not their problem! This is one of the assets of OS-X, it brings that feeling! I was confused when I first touched OS9 & OS-X, why? Because I was indoctrinated with the MS complicated thinking, I searched some things I didnít find themÖ well they were under my nose. I think many ppl experienced being very busy and searching a pen & finaly finding it in his own handÖ

Next, I just want to say that as somebody here said that ďI'm starting to feel the newcomer whining is costing us a lot.Ē, I start to feel that my good intentions to give some advice from my designer experience, starts to cost me a lot! This attitude of ďwe are perfect, how dare u newcomer to give us lessonsĒ will cost u more that u believe! I invested here time, which is irreversible (at this point) to shere some thoughts! Some ppl donít apreciate that! Some old man full of wisdom told me once that almost always if u try to help u will be taken as a looser! Let them crush their heads to the walls, he said, they will learn then! Arrogance is very unhelpfull!

This post means just one thing: The time for a Human Linux has come! Now u will have to choose if Ubuntu will be that! As we speak Google is working on an Linux based OS. Iím sure they take as target profile the most common man on earth! Don forget Divide & Impera is an universal asset of the leaders! I see it works well here too!

In one of the Matrix movies an elder sais:
I don know how it works bu I know itís purpose!

WHEN U DESIGN SOMETHING FOR PEOPLE, DON'T LOOK TO THE MIRROR, OPEN THE WINDOW AND LOOK TO THE PEOPLE!

bender5788
October 25th, 2006, 11:57 AM
Ok so heres what i think (like u care but any who). Yes Linux is tricky to use at times and some hardware doesn't work but i look at it this way.. most of the user's who are into linux had there first computer as a DOS machine (well at least the ones i know) so we tend to have less troubles with it as it is not any worse than DOS. Maybe in a few years itll be easier but even then do we really wan't it to become the next big thing?
Because when you think of it most of the advantages we get come simply from the fact that we are a minority and thus it would be pointless to attempt an attack or the like due to minimal impact... That said we have just as many disadvantages for the same fact but hey if i want to play my games ill boot into windows or run a Virtual Machine if i want to feel safe ill use linux :D.
Sorry if the post is a bit painful to read.

23meg
October 25th, 2006, 12:09 PM
Next, I just want to say that as somebody here said that “I'm starting to feel the newcomer whining is costing us a lot.”, I start to feel that my good intentions to give some advice from my designer experience, starts to cost me a lot! This attitude of “we are perfect, how dare u newcomer to give us lessons” will cost u more that u believe! Too much drama, too little substance. You seem to think I and others take all newcomer criticism as one and the same, and that's not the fact. I'm talking about unconstructive whining which brings no benefit to Ubuntu at all, and even takes away resources by occupying the forum's agenda and taking the users' time.

This thread has not served Ubuntu at all. No thread in aysiu's pile has. Nothing has come out of them, nothing ever will. All I'm saying is that we're losing time and energy with this talk and getting nothing in return.

A while ago, I had stated my position on whether "I'm going back to Windows" threads should be allowed; here's my post (http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=1363664&postcount=4). This thread and those in aysiu's list don't qualify as constructive criticism in the way I described in that post. I'm not piegonholing all newcomers as "newbies who're trying to teach us lessons", but you don't hesitate to piegonhole me as the "Linux elite" without much attention to what I'm saying. Criticism is very valuable, but I'm talking about whining. We're not perfect, we'll never be perfect for everyone, and we need feedback from people of all experience levels if we want to improve.

This post means just one thing: The time for a Human Linux has come! Now u will have to choose if Ubuntu will be that!If a "Human Linux" is one that puts catering for the needs and habits of users of other OSes as its top priority, count me out. And I'll do my best in every way to counter your efforts if want to try to make Ubuntu turn into that. How nice it is that we can fork and differentiate whenever we want, isn't it? You don't find Ubuntu "human" enough? Take it and make a "more human" version. There's absolutely nothing stopping you.

alinioanovici
October 25th, 2006, 12:09 PM
I got all the things I don’t like about Ubuntu down on paper but I’ve read all the posts until page 11 and that was enough for me to realize that I don’t want to help anymore by posting them. Sorry, but it’s clear to me why Linux is just 0.27% of the desktop market.

I am a Windows developer, I had experience with Linux before and I am not impressed by its evolution. I’m planning to start a big project soon. The reasons that I tried Linux was to see if it’s a good idea to lose allot of my time to make my project cross-platform. I knew very clearly what I was looking for.

I’m leaving disappointed by Linux and disappointed by its users.
I’m out!

nocturn
October 25th, 2006, 12:10 PM
Easy? Maybe for you and maybe even for me. But trust me that the average user will run scared. There are so many things wrong with Linux that I really need to take my time in putting them down.

For example I don't even agree with the filesystem structure of Unix. Why not separate from the root the users data, the system files, and the system preferences/custom options?

Everything has to be rethinked from scratch in terms of user interface and in terms of a users point of view. It has to be a USERíS TOOL. It just has to be perfect in all the ways if itís to mach Windows.

OK, basicly, what you are saying is that Linux (Ubuntu) does not suit your desktop well.

It does work for a lot of people however where Windows is the one that is lacking (despite being non-free).

I'm not going to argue against your post as it is to broad. Your biggest gripe of it not being easy to run windows native apps is backward if you ask me as you can equally not run Linux/Unix or Mac apps on windows. What you do if you use Linux is to find native ones wherever possible. Those are easy to install, easier then the cludged setups on windows.

Allow me to be frank, if you are looking at Ubuntu as a drop-in replacement for Windows, you will be disappointment. The system was designed differently and without changing your habits and thinking over to that new design, you will not succesfully switch.

Ubuntu is as much an alternative to Windows as a helicopter is a replacement for a car. Both are transportation devices (or OS's), but they have different characteristics.

nocturn
October 25th, 2006, 12:16 PM
I want to be convinced by Ubuntu the next time Iíll install it.


If you stick to your current thinking (which is windows-centric), you will be disappointed again. Ubuntu is not and will never be windows.

I could approach a windows box the same way you did and then complain that a .deb file didn't install, that bash wasn't present and there's no Vi.

For each unique OS, you need training.


That is how Linux will grow. Defending it from criticism really doesnít help Linux at all.


Criticism: Yes. Do we need a failsafe and better configuration options for Xorg: Yes. Do we need better protection in the kernel against buffer overflow: Hell Yes.

But do we need to mimic Windows? No. We need to find our own solutions to these problems and they should be based on the design principles of Unix/Linux, not the Windows dogma.

nocturn
October 25th, 2006, 12:18 PM
I am a Windows developer, I had experience with Linux before and I am not impressed by its evolution.

That's probably your problem. Nothing personal, but you are probably a Windows power-user.

Linux is however different from the ground up, so your Windows power knowledge equates to Linux newbie knowledge.
In certain ways, it would be easier if you were a newbie since you would not need to unlearn what you already know on your previous OS.

nocturn
October 25th, 2006, 12:20 PM
I don't think linux should be a second windows or a clone.

I think Linux has to take the good ideeas from Windows. Windows has more good things than bad things if look from the users point
of view.

Euh, Windows took it's ideas mainly from the Mac and from OS/2 which they first helped create and then blew up.

Unix (from which Linux was derived) has been arround a lot longer then Windows has. And it will be arround long after, though probably in the form of clones like Linux and MacOS X.

If we are to look at another system for usability ideas, Mac OS X is the one to copy, not Windows.

Demio
October 25th, 2006, 12:22 PM
I got all the things I donít like about Ubuntu down on paper but Iíve read all the posts until page 11 and that was enough for me to realize that I donít want to help anymore by posting them. Sorry, but itís clear to me why Linux is just 0.27% of the desktop market.

I am a Windows developer, I had experience with Linux before and I am not impressed by its evolution. Iím planning to start a big project soon. The reasons that I tried Linux was to see if itís a good idea to lose allot of my time to make my project cross-platform. I knew very clearly what I was looking for.

Iím leaving disappointed by Linux and disappointed by its users.
Iím out!

Don't let the door hit you on your way out!

And I'm sure there will be an OSS equivalent to whatever your project is.

:rolleyes:

23meg
October 25th, 2006, 12:22 PM
I’m leaving disappointed by Linux and disappointed by its users.
I’m out!
Goodbye. You haven't told us anything we didn't know, you haven't contributed one bit to our knowledge and awareness, you haven't sparked a creative and critical discussion, you haven't helped us at all.

Now that the OP is gone, the thread should perhaps be closed.

janbockaert
October 25th, 2006, 12:22 PM
That's not exactly what I meant, but close. It's what tried to be done with the old "Green Team", a team of handholders, basically.

Where I differ is: such a team would not only understand and amend a newcomer's typical frustrations, but also debunk typical newcomer myths, clear up misunderstandings, give the newcomer some historical and technical context on why things are working the way they are instead of the way they figured they should be after one hour of usage, etc. Also give the nastier ones the warnings they deserve, discourage others from responding if they're trolling, so on.

I agree a 100%. I did put a thread in the feedback forum as artificial intelligence sugestted. And if such a secion ever get started, i will contibute to it.

midwinter
October 25th, 2006, 12:23 PM
As I said, Gimp & Inkscape are apps for graphic enthusiasts (like Photoshop Elements), they are far from being professional. Give me the pro tools to work with, and I’m ready to learn ugly command-lines…

Okay, sorry I asked. It just seemed you were scared by the interface which I found a little odd. Being a graphics professional myself I don't find Inkscape to have an unconventional interface at all. Anyway, enjoy your mac or whatever.... no one owes us anything.

ade234uk
October 25th, 2006, 12:24 PM
If you are talking about webpages these are cross platform. If you are talking about Java this is cross platform. If you are talking about Firefox this is cross platform.

What project are you starting?

DoctorMO
October 25th, 2006, 12:26 PM
I got all the things I donít like about Ubuntu down on paper but Iíve read all the posts until page 11 and that was enough for me to realize that I donít want to help anymore by posting them. Sorry, but itís clear to me why Linux is just 0.27% of the desktop market.

Your not helping anyone but yourself, and thats only self pitty.


I am a Windows developer,

Me too! all my programs are cross platform because I use APIs which are available to all platforms. you wish to develop windows applications with the windows apis and by some magic have them work on other platforms. to be honest I expected more from a developer.


I had experience with Linux before and I am not impressed by its evolution.

Thats nice, because it's not out to impress you, it's out to better computing.


I knew very clearly what I was looking for.

You were looking for Windows.


Iím leaving disappointed by Linux and disappointed by its users.
Iím out!

Don't let the door hit ya where the door knob should have bit ya.

Lord Illidan
October 25th, 2006, 12:28 PM
To OP : Go, thanks! Instead of constructive criticsm, etc, you expect us all to bow down to you...well...no thanks.

To all those who say MAC OS X is better, remember that the Mac only works on Apple hardware...so it is very very very rare that there will be incompatibilities. Software is another matter.

ade234uk
October 25th, 2006, 12:34 PM
I got all the things I donít like about Ubuntu down on paper but Iíve read all the posts until page 11 and that was enough for me to realize that I donít want to help anymore by posting them. Sorry, but itís clear to me why Linux is just 0.27% of the desktop market.

I am a Windows developer, I had experience with Linux before and I am not impressed by its evolution. Iím planning to start a big project soon. The reasons that I tried Linux was to see if itís a good idea to lose allot of my time to make my project cross-platform. I knew very clearly what I was looking for.

Iím leaving disappointed by Linux and disappointed by its users.
Iím out!

Pass me the ******* kleenex.
0.27% where do you get your stats from. If Linux is that bad please remember that this message board is running PHP which is free to use unlike .net and secondly its running on a Linux server.

Lord Illidan
October 25th, 2006, 12:38 PM
Pass me the ******* kleenex.
0.27% where do you get your stats from. If Linux is that bad please remember that this message board is running PHP which is free to use unlike .net and secondly its running on a Linux server.

Pss, it actually runs Vbulletin.

Actually, Linux has more than 0.27%. It is estimated at around 1 - 6% of the market..

ade234uk
October 25th, 2006, 12:42 PM
Sorry VBulletin. I got muddled. :)

I can see Linux taking even more share later on. Usage is going up and up and up. For every 5 people that try it I reckon 1-2 people stay and play and then use it permanently or dual boot.

Brunellus
October 25th, 2006, 01:03 PM
Hands down, I feel bad for using ubuntu because it is just too easy!
We can always make you use slackware.

varvar
October 25th, 2006, 01:08 PM
To OP : Go, thanks! Instead of constructive criticsm, etc, you expect us all to bow down to you...well...no thanks.

To all those who say MAC OS X is better, remember that the Mac only works on Apple hardware...so it is very very very rare that there will be incompatibilities. Software is another matter.

Macs now have Intel CPUs! So Macs are x86 computers now! Did u know that OS-X can operate any x86 on earth? Only problem could be driver support! OS-X is blocked by Apple to work only on their machines ( ! ) because time for war with MS didnít come yet! (or they are brother in armsÖ) MS works on MacsÖ but Apple donít fear that because nobody will leave OS-X for Win!

mahy
October 25th, 2006, 01:10 PM
I haven't read all the posts, so this is just a reply to the first one:

This is a textbook example of an arrogant windows power user, who thinks they know everything. They don't understand it took them years to learn use windows. All they see is this: "I used to be a windows guru and know i'm a complete noob! Damn, it's Linux's fault!" (I happen to know people who know all the windows registry keys by heart, yet they'd tell you Linux is difficult to use) Instead of learning to use it, filing bugs and proposing suggestions, they expect a Free sofware be entirely customized for everyone's needs just like OSs that cost billions of dollars to develop.

It really calls for a (not so little) bit of humility on your part. Linux is a world apart, with different goals. Those goals (feel free to add -- slightly different with each distro) are: Freedom, openness, customizability, stability and usability; whereas MS's goal is essentially making money. The choice is yours.

Virogenesis
October 25th, 2006, 01:15 PM
vbulletin is written in php, so I guess you could say that the board is powered by php.
Like its been said before hes a windows dev looking to make his application cross platform.
He tested out wine, straight away does the windows dev want to use wine to make his application cross platform.
In no way has this been any different from those windows post in the past, infact this has been worse, lack of knowledge about the file system structure , not bothered to check out the different guis.
Infact pure lazy and close minded, thank god not everyone is as close minded and willing to give something a go,

varvar
October 25th, 2006, 01:16 PM
I see some people being obsessed by the idea of Win or OSX mimetic.
InterestingÖ so BMW copy Jaguar using 4 wheels?

Almost all hammers have the wood partís shape similar! Why? Because is made for human hands! U really don get the point! Nobody said to copy or mimic Win or OS-X, just learn from there! Ergonomics is the key of any efficient, successful product on this world.

I have the bad feeling that some developers & Linux Power Users just love to be in that big tower looking down from the top, with the smile of arrogance, being so proud, being too def to hear the voices of people! Uíre not better like MS or others, u follow the same pattern but in other form! I knew I canít speak wit MS, I knew I canít speak with Apple, I thought I can speak with U!

But no problem, as I said the time for a Human Whatever OS has come, to be born in Open Source area, u like it or not will happen! Why? Because is needed! And when something is needed sooner or later it will appear, because this is the nature of things! & what oppose the nature of things, is left behind in history! The universe moves with or without U!
Take this as a providence!

tenn
October 25th, 2006, 01:17 PM
I read half of the first post and decided I have better things to do than read another post from a person who has no idea what they are talking about.

Virogenesis
October 25th, 2006, 01:28 PM
I see some people being obsessed by the idea of Win or OSX mimetic.
InterestingÖ so BMW copy Jaguar using 4 wheels?

Almost all hammers have the wood partís shape similar! Why? Because is made for human hands! U really don get the point! Nobody said to copy or mimic Win or OS-X, just learn from there! Ergonomics is the key of any efficient, successful product on this world.

I have the bad feeling that some developers & Linux Power Users just love to be in that big tower looking down from the top, with the smile of arrogance, being so proud, being too def to hear the voices of people! Uíre not better like MS or others, u follow the same pattern but in other form! I knew I canít speak wit MS, I knew I canít speak with Apple, I thought I can speak with U!

But no problem, as I said the time for a Human Whatever OS has come, to be born in Open Source area, u like it or not will happen! Why? Because is needed! And when something is needed sooner or later it will appear, because this is the nature of things! & what oppose the nature of things, is left behind in history! The universe moves with or without U!
Take this as a providence!
So what are these things, we must learn?
Having you tried other linux distros, have you tried gaim?
Let me guess you use firefox, guess what that actual opensource.
Did you check out BMPX, doubtful you have added nothing to help you have whined and that is it,
As for us being arrogant, many here were windows users once but we made an effort to learn unlike others we have learnt somethings are better than others.
For example the apple HIG is better than the gnome HIG and Microsoft's HIG.
please someone close this thread and move it to back yard.

varvar
October 25th, 2006, 01:29 PM
It really calls for a (not so little) bit of humility on your part. Linux is a world apart, with different goals. Those goals (feel free to add -- slightly different with each distro) are: Freedom, openness, customizability, stability and usability; ...

USABILITY - for ItPros or for Humans?

Exactly this is all about! Most people don want to spend time with understanding too much things out from their fields of interest! So an OS must be extremly user-friendly and intuitive!

Actualy I think 90% from from Linux users outside corporate field are developers! That's not Linux for Humans! That's another Linux for Developers!

Virogenesis
October 25th, 2006, 01:40 PM
USABILITY - for ItPros or for Humans?

Exactly this is all about! Most people don want to spend time with understanding too much things out from their fields of interest! So an OS must be extremly user-friendly and intuitive!

Actualy I think 90% from from Linux users outside corporate field are developers! That's not Linux for Humans! That's another Linux for Developers!

Usablity? If thats what you want, look at f-spot, tomboy, the sled menu, the ubuntu installer for one (someone installed ubuntu drunk thats how easy the installer is), banshee, gaim beta 2 release 4,
I could name endless applications that are usable infact many are more usable than microsoft's.
But you would known that if you bothered to even look.

varvar
October 25th, 2006, 01:41 PM
Let me guess you use firefox, guess what that actual opensource.


Thanks helping me macking my point!
Why Firefox is so good ? Do I have command lines? Do I have strange configs? U will tell me About:config! As a noob somebody can use Firefox without any complain! Why? Because is so simple to use! made for humans! And if u want advanced features u get them from extensions! How do I instal extensions? Oooo is so simple!
Firefox is big because is almost an browsing "OS". U can instal there any "apps" (extenssions) u need to browse as u like!
But I know people who dont want even that! They hate to spend time finding plug'ins or stuff alike! So they choose Opera!

Aply this thinking of Firefox (learning something from Opera)!

cunawarit
October 25th, 2006, 01:44 PM
I got all the things I donít like about Ubuntu down on paper but Iíve read all the posts until page 11 and that was enough for me to realize that I donít want to help anymore by posting them.

I donít even know if you are going to read this, but with all due respect, you have made it clear that you didnít give Ubuntu a chance. You said you used it for a good hour and concluded it wasnít for you.

How can this list be of any use? Is it a proper usability study? Did you even know how to use the basics of the system before you came up with said list?

I think people may have been interested if you had you spent 3 months using it and then produced a list of things that could be improved from the perspective of a Windows user.


Sorry, but itís clear to me why Linux is just 0.27% of the desktop market.

Where did this statistic come from? I've heard anywhere between 2 and 5%.


I am a Windows developer, I had experience with Linux before and I am not impressed by its evolution.

I'm a Windows developer too, and Iím new to Linux. Guess what? I am astounded by the modern Linux distros and I am of the opinion that many make for a great desktop environment. I simply think you didn't give Ubuntu a chance.


Iím planning to start a big project soon. The reasons that I tried Linux was to see if itís a good idea to lose allot of my time to make my project cross-platform.

OK, I am not one to talk as everything I develop is for Windows. However, if you were interested in doing a project for both Windows and Linux you should have had a little more commitment than just trying Ubuntu for an hour and concluding that it wasn't what you were looking for.


I knew very clearly what I was looking for.

Windows Clone?


Iím leaving disappointed by Linux and disappointed by its users.
Iím out!

Some of the replies were harsh, but try and see it from the perspective of many people here. Many are Ubuntu power users; they know very clearly how powerful some of its features are. Did you really expect your criticism to be taken seriously after using Ubuntu for an hour?

Virogenesis
October 25th, 2006, 01:52 PM
Thanks helping me macking my point!
Why Firefox is so good ? Do I have command lines? Do I have strange configs? U will tell me About:config! NO! As a noob somebody can use Firefox without any complain! Why? Because is so simple to use! made for humans! And if u want advanced features u get them from extensions!

Thanks for making my point, linux cannot be expected to work with all hardware, the fact the manufactors do NOT release the specs, makes it somewhat hard.
How many noobs would you expect to install windows, none? sounds like the right sort of answer.
Do you have to use the command line in ubuntu, many seem to think you don't and I would agree, Once ubuntu is set up the user shouldn't need to ever use the command line, (Once being the keyword here)
Linux does not get the support like mac and windows do, nothing to do with usablity.
Only time you should ever run into configs after you set up your computer, is when you go to install something like apache, which many wouldn't do.
Yes, gimp is a very unusable application, I'd agree there but thats one application and guess what a usablity study is being carried out so improvements will be made.

lazyart
October 25th, 2006, 02:01 PM
IT folks (like I) have it pretty good. Computers are everywhere and not everyone knows how to fix or optimize them. When we are asked to fix a problem on a device that is used so much nowadays, we get smiles, thank yous and praise. It's great when you know what's going on.

Then you step into Linux and you're not quite ready to be humbled. It's a bit of arrogance gained from the knowledge we have and the kudos we've received.

Your Windows knowledge is not useful in Linux... in fact it may severely limit you. If you can figure thing out quickly, like you're used to, you may be quick to dismiss it as rubbish. When you got your first computer you were green and looking for all the info you could to make it better, customize and tweak it. SWITCHING TO A DIFFERENT OS REQUIRES THE SAME ATTITUDE.

I can whup Windows in my sleep. But I didn't know crap when I first installed it. Same with Ubuntu. If it takes editing a config file to make it work, do it. Next time around, you know what to do. I replaced my video card a week into my Ubuntu install. Couldnt get X to start. So I looked around. The answer? Type

DPKG-RECONFIGURE XSERVER-XORG

I went through and reconfigured X and I was back in business.

With google, the answer to everything is at our fingertips. Don't assume you know the answers because you know how to do it in Windows. Remember the Linux LAW:

Linux Ain't Windows.

I'll help where I can, but I'm only two weeks in. Search or ask, but don't give up after an hour. It's a disservice to your own intelligence, and to those who are curious but haven't installed.

maniacmusician
October 25th, 2006, 02:02 PM
varvar, while you make good points, you also have to take into consideration the position that ubuntu is in, as virogenesis said. We don't have the advantages of windows or macs. hardware vendors don't even releases specs to us, much less actual drivers.

what do you find hard about linux? If you're an average user, NO ONE expects you to set it up yourself. It was your decision to try and do it. No one expects people to install Windows themselves either. If you got someone else to set up linux for you, then you would never have to touch the command line if you didn't want to; simple as that.

I hear the points you're making, but you must hear mine as well. We're making things as easy as possible. It's true, we don't yet have GUI tools for editing most config files such as xorg.conf, etc, but we're working towards that too. Honestly, you as an average user shouldnt even be touching config files. So there's really nothing to complain about

varvar
October 25th, 2006, 02:05 PM
An experienced user, or ItPro, I think in 1 hour can examine lot of things, and he can see flows if they are!

Same time if an OS or App is Intuitive a smart noob user donít need training, even introduction! I was alone in front of a Mac first time, and I understanded lot of things in 1 hour without any training & helpÖ! When I first saw a Linux at a friendÖ. I was lost!

(only one I struggled was CD open/eject button on keyboardÖ I searched it on the caseÖ & finally found it on keyboard! Thatís a smart idea! Thatís Usability! Ergonomics!)

Virogenesis
October 25th, 2006, 02:16 PM
As you can see from the screenshots pasted below, usablity isn't an issue.
Some applications make more sense than others, but fact remains once set up,
Its easy as.

http://img343.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshotbmpbz6.png
http://img81.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshotbmp1cq3.png
http://img81.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshotbmp2ud9.png
http://img91.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshotbmp3yp1.png
http://img91.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshotbmp4tx4.png
http://img91.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshotbmp5uo5.png
http://img87.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshotpreferencesbmpgr3.png

varvar
October 25th, 2006, 02:28 PM
varvar, while you make good points, you also have to take into consideration the position that ubuntu is in, as virogenesis said. We don't have the advantages of windows or macs. hardware vendors don't even releases specs to us, much less actual drivers.

what do you find hard about linux? If you're an average user, NO ONE expects you to set it up yourself. It was your decision to try and do it. No one expects people to install Windows themselves either. If you got someone else to set up linux for you, then you would never have to touch the command line if you didn't want to; simple as that.

I hear the points you're making, but you must hear mine as well. We're making things as easy as possible. It's true, we don't yet have GUI tools for editing most config files such as xorg.conf, etc, but we're working towards that too. Honestly, you as an average user shouldnt even be touching config files. So there's really nothing to complain about

U're probably right! My personal problem is that I can't use Linux because I don't have equal as quality alternatives for aplications I use! And I hope one day that apps will apear! Till then maybe Wine will run also Adobe / Macromedia & Corel... but the licence problem still reamains, also the problem of custom functions I could have in an Open Source ambiance! I saw "Nested Layers" function in Photoshop as a future development few years before they did'it! In Open Source ambiance I could enrich an app with such an idea, bringing to a bord, or just paying myself a/few developer to do the job, just because I need'it! Now industry mooves & sometimes we are forced to buy an upgrade just because of the market demand, & we pay functions we don't need! U can't open a CDR (CorelDraw) 12 version made file with Corel 9. So u have to buy the latest version!(now is X3 > 13...)

So for me the swith time is later anyway!

23meg
October 25th, 2006, 02:36 PM
But no problem, as I said the time for a Human Whatever OS has come, to be born in Open Source area, u like it or not will happen! Why? Because is needed! And when something is needed sooner or later it will appear, because this is the nature of things! & what oppose the nature of things, is left behind in history! The universe moves with or without U!
Take this as a providence!
I hope you'll do more for this "Human Whatever OS" than to prophesize it. I know I've done more to help Ubuntu become what it is than post to this silly thread.

DFreeze
October 25th, 2006, 03:35 PM
If anything, the OP indirectly caused the 'Rooky Section' to be considered. Which is a good thing! But then again, we have a Beginners Forum already.

Too bad he doesn't post his views after all, because I was becoming pretty curious as to what they'd be. Oh well...

sabredog
October 25th, 2006, 03:40 PM
USABILITY - for ItPros or for Humans?

Exactly this is all about! Most people don want to spend time with understanding too much things out from their fields of interest! So an OS must be extremly user-friendly and intuitive!

Actualy I think 90% from from Linux users outside corporate field are developers! That's not Linux for Humans! That's another Linux for Developers!

I have attempted to read all your posts, but do you actually HAVE a pont to make at all?

By your thinking as apparent in your posts not even WinXP is user friendly. Try making an average user install updated drivers for a video card or troubleshoot a network IP conflict.

You mentioned that kids would have problems with Ubuntu. Ask mine, they use Ubuntu every day with no issues at all and without resorting to a command line. Why? Because as installed it has all the software necessary and once a third party app like Automatix is installed, they get a complete desktop. No AV, no spyware and no troubles

They are human you know.

tubasoldier
October 25th, 2006, 03:44 PM
Actualy I think 90% from from Linux users outside corporate field are developers! That's not Linux for Humans! That's another Linux for Developers!

Funny, most linux users I know are not developers. Please let me know where you got these figures. I would sure love to read about it. It would sure give me peice of mind knowing that there are more developers working on linux. :)

Bartender
October 25th, 2006, 03:46 PM
The System 76 laptops - who makes the hardware?

Artificial Intelligence
October 25th, 2006, 03:48 PM
Funny, most linux users I know are not developers. Please let me know where you got these figures. I would sure love to read about it. It would sure give me peice of mind knowing that there are more developers working on linux. :)

Aye, I work in a public daycare center. My father works as a typograph. Noone of us are linux guru or devs by profession.

varvar
October 25th, 2006, 03:51 PM
If anything, the OP indirectly caused the 'Rooky Section' to be considered. Which is a good thing! But then again, we have a Beginners Forum already.

Too bad he doesn't post his views after all, because I was becoming pretty curious as to what they'd be. Oh well...

I will try to bring him back, to post that list! Now he's not online! :???: He's a very busy man, & despite other believes he didnít look after Ubuntu just to find a Windows Clone!


Funny, most linux users I know are not developers. Please let me know where you got these figures. I would sure love to read about it. It would sure give me peice of mind knowing that there are more developers working on linux. :)

Well... all Linux users I know are developers or at least they are in the development scene! Whatever, finaly I don even know too much Linux Users...

Henry Rayker
October 25th, 2006, 03:59 PM
I got all the things I donít like about Ubuntu down on paper but Iíve read all the posts until page 11 and that was enough for me to realize that I donít want to help anymore by posting them. Sorry, but itís clear to me why Linux is just 0.27% of the desktop market.

I am a Windows developer, I had experience with Linux before and I am not impressed by its evolution. Iím planning to start a big project soon. The reasons that I tried Linux was to see if itís a good idea to lose allot of my time to make my project cross-platform. I knew very clearly what I was looking for.

Iím leaving disappointed by Linux and disappointed by its users.
Iím out!

Am I the only one who believes he didn't HAVE a list of things he didn't like? I mean, yesterday he said, "I'll post them tomorrow, I'm leaving for the day" and posted a couple more times...seriously......

Additionally, one reason OSX has compatibility on its side is Apple makes a lot of the hardware and contracts the rest out. They are making a whole package, not just an OS. Try getting OSX to run flawlessly on a Dell...

Sure, Windows will run on the Mac hardware these days (due to the Intel cpu) but that's partially because the Apple hardware is made to integrate into the Windows OS.

I've had my fair share of hardware just not working (in Breezy, no matter what I did, my minipci wifi card wouldn't be detected, much less work) but hardware support is rising fast. My laptop's monitor isn't detected correctly; I just run a sudo dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg.....I had my display adapter information and just tossed that into the configuration. It fixes my synaptics touch-pad and everything.

I started using Ubuntu without any linux experience. I didn't even realize that linux had ANY GUI/desktop or anything; I thought it was 100% text. I got along fairly easy, however. I had initial gag-reflexes, of sorts, but I chose to stick it out. Now I am working on switching all of my machines to dual boot. Heck, I'm even probably going to put linux on my xbox.

Brunellus
October 25th, 2006, 04:02 PM
The System 76 laptops - who makes the hardware?
ASUS.

To answer the thread title: NO. The history of religion should be instructive here: the masses NEVER spontaneously and simultaneously achieve GNOSIS. Force will bring about change. For Clovis and the Franks, it was the forced baptism in the Seine. For Windows users, it will be when their corporate IT department decides that Free Software is more economically viable.

tubasoldier
October 25th, 2006, 04:04 PM
I started using Ubuntu without any linux experience. I didn't even realize that linux had ANY GUI/desktop or anything; I thought it was 100% text. I got along fairly easy, however. I had initial gag-reflexes, of sorts, but I chose to stick it out. Now I am working on switching all of my machines to dual boot. Heck, I'm even probably going to put linux on my xbox.

I had no idea that linux had a GUI when I first started using it. I was shocked when I first booted up Knoppix. I expected nothing except command lines. Then once I figured out that there was a GUI it took me a while to understand that I could use a different one! What? you mean I have a choice? My first linux install I put anything and everything on my computer. It took like 8gb or something to install everything that Mandriva had on their install disk and in their contrib repository. I would never install everything now but it sure helped me learn the system well. I got the chance to try all the currently available software. :)

varvar
October 25th, 2006, 04:24 PM
Am I the only one who believes he didn't HAVE a list of things he didn't like? I mean, yesterday he said, "I'll post them tomorrow, I'm leaving for the day" and posted a couple more times...seriously......

He has that list! or maybe "flames" from the board burned it! :-#

WellÖ when somebody tells me I made a mistake, I ask him to explain why he believes that, donít throw stones after him, and Iím always awake for the outside opinions!

Outside opinions come from ďworldsĒ we donít know, they bring valuable information!
Stanislaw Lem (hope spelled well) wrote in his ďSolarisĒ book something like: We humans donít want, despite all theories, to meet other civilizations; we just want to find a mirror to admire ourselves! (Something like this)! Here on this board I feel a xenophobic attitude against outsiders.

Virogenesis
October 25th, 2006, 04:35 PM
He has that list! or maybe "flames" from the board burned it! :-#

WellÖ when somebody tells me I made a mistake, I ask him to explain why he believes that, donít throw stones after him, and Iím always awake for the outside opinions!

Outside opinions come from ďworldsĒ we donít know, they bring valuable information!
Stanislaw Lem (hope spelled well) wrote in his ďSolarisĒ book something like: We humans donít want, despite all theories, to meet other civilizations; we just want to find a mirror to admire ourselves! (Something like this)! Here on this board I feel a xenophobic attitude against outsiders.

Could you think it could be with his approach, rather than trying to get windows applications to run, maybe he should of asked for an alternative instead.
Instead of using it for an hour, should of used it longer, sure the xorg conf is a problem, many including myself will admit that.
If handled by himself a bit better, would of gotten a better reaction.

warlorddagaz
October 25th, 2006, 04:36 PM
I recently installed Ubuntu, because the hard disk went, and I didn't have an XP reinstallation CD. It is now running our main family computer, which my younger brothers (11 and 9) use without problem for most things they want to do. MY MUM can use it for what she needs to (Word processing, internet access, online shopping), and she doesn't have a clue about computers. I have found all the open-source softaware really good, for both developing by website and for general computer use. There are even open source games such as battle for Wesnoth, that arn't compeatly useless like I expected. In short, Ubuntu, and the software with it, is great.

The only problem I have found is that Firefox and open office don't seem to update with the update manager to the latest versions.

However, I have found that Ubuntu works with windows fairly well for what I need. It didn't like sharing an internet connection with the windows computer it was connected to, but this was solved by buying a router. I now use open office for all my school work, as ms office is no longer easily accessible. But this is OK as I take portable open office to school and use that.

i have yet to try wine, but I may soon be using it to install a CAD program, although whether it will work I don't know.

Henry Rayker
October 25th, 2006, 04:36 PM
I have nothing against the guy (I do feel that he didn't even give Ubuntu a fair shot, but that's no cause for ill feelings). However, When a person says, I don't have time to post my list, I'll post it tomorrow...then they continue to read further posts and post a couple more times themself....this indicates to me that he DID have the time.

Now it just looks suspicious that, the day he planned on posting his list, he has had enough of everything and "doesn't want to help" anymore.

varvar, you talk about this all in terms of ideals. Ideally, one operating system would be a 100% match with what EVERYONE wants. Ideally, we wouldn't have to ever set our own hardware up.

I haven't seen one bit of hard evidence from you, only theory and prophecy. You say Ubuntu is difficult to use, except for by "ITPros"...you say the design is lacking from a user's POV (this one you have partially tried to explain by saying, "look at OSX!!!" but that's like telling a guy with car trouble, "Hey, look at my car!!!" as you drive away...not very helpful).

I am open to new ideas, when they are supported with hard evidence. I don't care if the ideas come from my neighbor, a person across the country or across the world. There is no xenophobic attitude (from me at least); just an aversion to hype and unsupported prophecy.

lazyart
October 25th, 2006, 04:38 PM
I wouldnt categorize it as xenophobia... He pretty much kicked the tires and gave up.

If you seriously try it and decide it's not for you, most would be okay with that. When you do nothing but take a glance and categorize it as no good, it's unsettling.

Maybe on the initial login screen there should be a note that "This is not Windows".

Again, the more Windows knowledge you have, the worse.

aysiu
October 25th, 2006, 04:38 PM
Okay. Enough pretending this thread offers anything unique or helpful. I've merged it with some other "let me whine but not offer any practical suggestions" threads.

If people want to continue debating just for fun, go for it.

If you want to make some real change in Ubuntu, read these threads for how to do so:
What's better than whining on the forums? Making a difference. (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=78741&highlight=whining+making+difference)
Suggestions for Edgy Eft (or maybe Edgy+1) (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=183958&highlight=suggestions)

mahy
October 25th, 2006, 04:47 PM
USABILITY - for ItPros or for Humans?

Exactly this is all about! Most people don want to spend time with understanding too much things out from their fields of interest! So an OS must be extremly user-friendly and intuitive!

Actualy I think 90% from from Linux users outside corporate field are developers! That's not Linux for Humans! That's another Linux for Developers!

Let me tell you something:

1.) development of GUI apps is 100-times as difficult as development of commandline (or curses) apps. That's why no one bothers to make a nice GUI tool to change resolution to whatever dimensions you'd like. You only have to change it once, so don't be lazy and open vi or gedit or whatever. What? You don't know which file to edit? We've got a newbie forum here, you'll get an answer to such question within seconds. This is how things work in Linux.

2.) Apple and MS spend billions of dollars hiring artists, conducting surveys and many more things to improve their GUIs. This is someting i happen to know about. Now where exactly is Linux world supposed to obtain such amounts? And how can it compete in this field without it? Wake up and smell coffee!

I'm not saying Linux is the OS for the elite, definitely not. But the open-source model has its limits. You can't get an ultimately polished final product. Instead, you're encouraged to contribute, at least by filing bugs and suggesting features. Besides, Novell's making great contributions to GUI side of Linux, so it'll be getting better over time.

varvar
October 25th, 2006, 05:05 PM
Let me tell you something:

1.) development of GUI apps is 100-times as difficult as development of commandline (or curses) apps. That's why no one bothers to make a nice GUI tool to change resolution to whatever dimensions you'd like. You only have to change it once, so don't be lazy and open vi or gedit or whatever. What? You don't know which file to edit? We've got a newbie forum here, you'll get an answer to such question within seconds. This is how things work in Linux.

2.) Apple and MS spend billions of dollars hiring artists, conducting surveys and many more things to improve their GUIs. This is someting i happen to know about. Now where exactly is Linux world supposed to obtain such amounts? And how can it compete in this field without it? Wake up and smell coffee!

I'm not saying Linux is the OS for the elite, definitely not. But the open-source model has its limits. You can't get an ultimately polished final product. Instead, you're encouraged to contribute, at least by filing bugs and suggesting features. Besides, Novell's making great contributions to GUI side of Linux, so it'll be getting better over time.

Well I don have nothing more to say at this point!

Especially as I said Iíll try to bring him back, and his post was put in ďgeneral Linux winge: don't bother to read or replyĒÖ if ppl will not bother to read or reply anymore, probably, that list isnít needed anymore, so why should I bother to care anymore? Right?

I now partly understand him, retreating, as also not totally agree with him! >>> :-# <<<

Brunellus
October 25th, 2006, 05:10 PM
Well I don have nothing more to say at this point!

Especially as I said Iíll try to bring him back, and his post was put in ďgeneral Linux winge: don't bother to read or replyĒÖ if ppl will not bother to read or reply anymore, probably, that list isnít needed anymore, so why should I bother to care anymore? Right?

I now partly understand him, retreating, as also not totally agree with him! >>> :-# <<<

as I recall, you haven't even bothered to try Linux or Ubuntu, but have been dismissing it out of hand based on second-hand reports. Your credibility isn't great, and you are quickly abusing the goodwill of the community by continuing this pointless argument.

If the software is insufficient for you--use other software. We will not issue fatwas calling for your head or the slaughter of all unbelievers. We leave that sort of thing to others. If you are using the software, and need help learning how to use it--we're here for that. We can help you there.

But if you're NOT using the software, and are coming here to demand changes or complain about things you may or may not know about....

qalimas
October 25th, 2006, 05:22 PM
I can't buy a standard truck! I don't know how to drive that, why do I need special training when I can just get an automatic? STANDARD CARS AND TRUCKS AREN'T READY FOR THE MARKET UNTIL THEY BECOME EXACTLY LIKE AUTOMATIC ONES!!!!!!!!!!!!


There's an analogy, think about that.

I'm only 17, but I just got my license, I don't know how to drive standard, I recently just learned to drive automatic xD Point being, I had to learn one, and it was easy, be it I learned stick first, then it owuld have been just as easy. You learned Windows, you want Linux to be Windows. It isn't. It never will be. How hard would it be to search the howto forum? There are LOADS of docs on wifi =/



On a side edit note, I have twin sisters, 6 years old, they both love Ubuntu, it doesn't reboot on them when they play games on NickJr. They run it just fine, they don't even know the difference between it and Windows, they operate both seemlessly... at 6. And you want to tell me you can't operate it? ;)

poisonborz
October 26th, 2006, 01:30 AM
...I hope I won't upset anyone, but I feel I have to tell this.

I like to think that I'm a windows power-user, I have technician's degree in programming, and I'm using win since 10 years now. I have completely customized my winxp (even the install was made by me with nlite).

Through all this years somehow I've managed to avoid Linux (I mean in-depth usage). But by now I heard too much good not to try it myself: I've chosen Kubuntu for it's easiness and alleged simplicity.

Installation went without trouble, but after a few minutes, the troubles began. I couldn't set monitor refresh rate - the display module didn't load (fresh installed os... but even with live cd, my monitor wasn't listed, and couldn't get it above 85hz). After that, I've removed some programs with the add/remove programs, just some stuff I tought I don't need - and suddenly Konqueror stopped working. Even after a reinstall (and a kubuntu-desktop reinstall, to get those uninstalled modules) I couldn't even open a simple directory (I couldn't re-associate Konq)and while I was able to browse, there was only "image view" for local content.

My whole night went for search for commands (tons of dependencies, libraries, and for 90% I had to use the command line... in 2006??) The only positive thing was the great community, the built in Konversation logged me in automatically to a Ubuntu-support channel, filled with noob-friendly users. But even they couldn't do anything but to paste in some commands, and show some extensive and lenghty wiki articles. Not any long alert messages when I did something wrong... or sometimes, no messages at all. Program installation was also a mess every time, no standalone installers...

I guess I've written a lot of stupid things, and maybe 99% of them could be solved in a minute, but it's just disappointing, that without extensive help, I couldn't really do anything with Kubuntu. Somehow now I know, why Linux couldn't really break into the average homes... (not becouse lack of programs/games etc.). It's just not user friendly. It isn't. Just a quick example: in Win, in every open file dialog, when I left-click on an executable file, there's an option to run it. Even in an image viewer, when I want to open an image... If there's an executable file listed in the dialog (show all files) I can run it. Not in Kubuntu.

And yeah, I know, Linux is sooo much more stable, complex and faster... but if it's not friendly on the end-user level, it simply won't be more than a pet os of geeks. I can't imagine how I must not forget the console in 2006 when I want to install/configure something.
At least one thing is sure: to achieve the same level of customization/system setup in linux compared to win, 100% more knowledge is required.


Needless to say, of course I'll begin to read faq-s, howto-s and guides, and after some time, I'll propably be a happy Kubuntu user... but I'm not sure that too much average users would do the same after such a frustrating start.
(THE END - phew, that's long...well...thanks for reading :) )

derekr44
October 26th, 2006, 01:43 AM
To be totally honest, I agree with this post. Not that I have anything against Linux (don't get me wrong). I just think that the main stumbling block for Linux on the average desktop is the lack of ease.

For example:
I have a 19" widescreen monitor. On a completely fresh install, I had to manually edit the config file in order for xserver to recognize my 1440x900 resolution. That won't fly with mom & pop.

If Best Buy has to go out and hire a bunch of people to help grandma install a modem, you can sure bet she'll throw her hands up in the air when she hears about reconfiguring her network settings when she reboots.

Just examples...

But I have nothing against Linux, so I hope noone read my thoughts wrong.

rfruth
October 26th, 2006, 01:47 AM
Said differently everything in Windows works including keyloggers malware etc.. pick your poison :D

caimex
October 26th, 2006, 01:49 AM
Linux was never intended and will NEVER be even close to being used as much as windows on average desktop pc's. Not that windows is better, because it's not, but because of the minimum knowledge necessary.

Dealing with linux will NEVER be as easy as more popular OS's, but that doesn't mean its worse. I personally enjoy linux A LOT, and am very glad I made the switch. I know though that linux will never be as popular as it should be, but I don't really care, everyone doesn't have to use what's best (for me). Less than one percent of people use linux and yet it's completely amazing.

randiroo76073
October 26th, 2006, 01:50 AM
LOL! Linux is NOT windows, I tore 98se to shreds and then rebuilt it, conversely I find linux easier to work with, only been at it a couple of mos. and I can already do more with it than I could with 98se after a yr. I'm no programmer either, just average Joe. Been into computers about 5 yrs now. I currently have 5 distros installed, Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Xubuntu, Kanotix, Mephis. Fixin to install more, why not, they're free :)

UnknownVariable
October 26th, 2006, 01:52 AM
But ask yourself this - Is it not user friendly? Or are you too accustomed to Windows?

In elementary school (~12 years ago or so when I started) all we used were macs. In middle school we used macs as well. Now in highschool, we have PCs. Through all this time I was using a PC at home with windows installed on it. I can honestly say though, in a few weeks of using ubuntu, I was pretty well trained in it. I know how to do everything I did in windows, and then some.

Those who have never used a computer more will adjust to linux just as easy if they were to adjust to windows. It's all a matter of what they're being brought up on, in my opinion. Kinda like what language you learn as a child. I've always known English because I was brought up with it. Now I'm learning Korean, and it's a bit more than difficult. However, if I were brought up in Korea, the tables would be turned.

That's my outlook on it anyhow. :)

moffa
October 26th, 2006, 01:54 AM
There are some things in Linux that I wished they fixed such as the refresh rate problem. The thing you have to understand that Linux in general and Kubuntu specifically are vastly different from Windows.

The problem I had was I was trying to solve issues I had the same way I did with Windows. Windows is not easier by any means as there are tweaks that need to be done after an installation. The thing is that you have got used to doing in Windows and remember how to. Once you get practice using Linux, you will become more familiar with it and realize it is vastly superiour to Windows.

As a side note, I found the easiest way to fix the refresh rate is by running "sudo dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg" then going through, choosing Advanced when setting up the monitor (insead of simple or medium) and then putting the ranges in that my monitor can take as input into the horizontal and vertical refresh rate boxes. It also happens to be the recommended limits for me as well.

dalani
October 26th, 2006, 01:59 AM
It;s a matter of knowing the difference between technology, hype and your needs. Personally I think Linux is a great hobby

lazyart
October 26th, 2006, 02:06 AM
Learning to drive a car is great, but if you use those same skills to operate a motorcycle you won't get far (I borrowed this analogy from another site)... turning the wheel versus leaning, clutch is not on the floor but in your hand, and you shift with your foot, not your hand...

The more you know about Windows, the more likely you are to stumble through the gate in Linux. The first time you used Windows, did you know how to set the refresh rate? Probably not.

It's all good. Folks here will help. Things in this kitchen are arranged a bit differently, but you can still learn to cook. :)

And I wouldnt trust grandma to install a modem, or an OS. That's why she buys hers pre-installed.

Esben Kramer
October 26th, 2006, 02:09 AM
Most Windows-users will also gasp if they have to install all the drivers and stuff themselves. That's why the resellers sell the OS preinstalled. I told about my neighbour in a previous thread, but here we go again. She never used a computer, and I installed Kubuntu on her labtop (with everything working, just as if it was store-bought), and she has only turned to me once, because I forgot flash (doh). (K)Ubuntu is very user-friendly. It's just not what you are used to, and for many (myself included, if I remember correctly) recognition = user-friendly.

studentism
October 26th, 2006, 02:22 AM
Not going to get into the unfriendly/Windows debate, but I'll touch upon a few points:

Monitor Refresh:
I've rarely come across a monitor Ubuntu didn't auto-detect for me, but here is an excellent walkthrough for when it doesn't:
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/FixVideoResolutionHowto#head-e2249d4bcb9fe0dea110f9b82ec7a40716221541

I'd guide you through it, but I'd just be rehashing what's said there. Just out of curiosity, what monitor are you using?

After that, I've removed some programs with the add/remove programs, just some stuff I tought I don't need - and suddenly Konqueror stopped working.
This is an excellent idea, but I would DEFINITELY hold off on it until you're at least comfortable in Ubuntu. Wait until you completely understand what a program does, rather than what you think a program might do.

"for 90% I had to use the command line... in 2006??"
I understand that it's a bit of a pain, but once you _really_ get into Linux (and I'm going to get flamed for this, but IMO, Ubuntu isn't the best distribution to do that in), you'll be amazed at how much more powerful the commandline is than what you can do with a full GUI in Windows.

As a programmer, I think you'd appreciate (and you've probably heard of already) this relatively well-known story involving Knuth. Back in the day when "Communications of the ACM" was _the_ programming publication, Bell Labs's Jon Bently was talking to Knuth about his idea of literate programming; essentially, Knuth's idea was to write a program as a research paper, along the way providing snippits of code as example. When you were done with the paper, you not only had something that was completely understandable to humans, but you could take the snippets, put them together, compile, and have a running program.

Bently issued a challenge to Knuth to write a literate program to process a text file and then make a list of the n most frequent words along with counts of their occurrence, sorted descending (case insensitive). Knuth wrote a really beautiful article and come up with a clever solution with an entirely new type of tree, invented just for the solution.

Before publication, another Bell Labs researcher, Doug McIlroy, reviewed the article (which was quite a few pages) and added an edit to the end. He was very polite about it, and praised Knuth's solution, but essentially said "you could have also done it like this:

tr -cs A-za-z\' '\n' | tr A-z a-z | sort | uniq -c | sort -k1,1nr -k2 | sed ${1:-10}q

Essentially a single line of code using the bash scripting language. tr is transliterate, the first tr converts non characters to newlines then pipes (the "|" symbol - takes the output and sends it as input to the next command here), the second converts everything to lowercase, the third sorts alphabetically, the fourth (uniq) eliminates duplicates and shows their counts, the fifth (sort again) sorts by descending count and then by ascending word, and the final command (sed) prints the first n (here 10 default) lines.

Granted, if you have no idea about bash commands, it's slightly confusing, but after a little bit on the man pages, you'll realize how elegant and simple a solution it is -- everything's already there for you and there's no need to create new classes or whatnot. The entire thing could even be done using just the "awk" command, if you wanted. You will rarely, if ever, be limited in what you would like to do through the use of the command line.

In any case, I realize this a huge digression, but when my Programming Languages professor told me that in College, I became ridiculously excited about the possibilities of Linux. Somehow I doubt that will translate from lecture to Internet text that well, though. Hopefully some of that come across.


To sum up:
Is the learning curve steep? I'm not going to lie, yes -- but that's part of the fun. Even many self-proclaimed gurus still have new things they learn every day. I still keep Windows around for program compatibility issues (and playing games), but that's about it. One of the things I love about Linux is that when something breaks or crashes, I can determine exactly what caused it rather easily; obviously, I was overwhelmed at the beginning as well, but with time you'll get there and might even surprise yourself with the discovery that you're in love with Linux.

Some final recommendations I can make -- 1) Flatten and reinstall Kubuntu. I don't imagine you've done too much yet, and you'll save yourself a lot of time starting with a new system that doesn't have broken parts. 2) Pick up an O'Reilly book, perhaps. Running Linux is a good intro. 3) Once you've picked up on the basics, start getting into the more powerful commands -- sed, awk, using the vim editor, etc. That's when you'll start to become fascinated, with any luck. 4) Have fun. Seriously.


I'm kind of saddened to realize I wrote this much. I don't know when I became such a huge nerd. :(

Tux Aubrey
October 26th, 2006, 02:25 AM
I'm truly sorry that you are having so many problems. This sounds just like my first install (about 5 months ago) in which I broke just about everything trying do the simplest things. But as the another poster says:


The more you know about Windows, the more likely you are to stumble through the gate in Linux.

Last night I did my fifth Ubuntu install - on a brand new (fairly) high-end machine (Athlon 3500+, SATA, PCI-E nVidia, etc) and edgy RC1 installed like a dream. I was on-line immediately and 77 updates installed themselves in 10 minutes. A visit to the nice people at the Automatix shop (www.getautomatix.com) and I had all the non-free stuff installed within half an hour. This was the smoothest set-up I have ever done bar none (last time I re-installed Win XP it took 3hrs and lots of tweaking and trips to MS Update before I even inserted the MS Office CD, installed virus checkers and adaware etc. etc.).

If you decide to stay with Linux (and it is definitely NOT for everyone, even power users)then you will look back on your first experience as an important step in unlearning Windows.

I hope it does work out for you.

barkej
October 26th, 2006, 02:28 AM
Linux can be daunting, but the payoff is huge once you get used to it. If I had to setup a computer for my grandparents I would certainly use it because once set it rarely ever needs any fixes.

mokmoki
October 26th, 2006, 02:37 AM
this is usually the stumbling block of people switching to linux (which i must say was also mine for a short period of time)...

people always try to compare linux with windows, which is really not the case. linux is not windows, and if you really want to learn how to use linux, you must spend a small amount of time to get over that !@$# learning curve.

once your past it though, it's really a great OS to use. i don't think i'm over that learning curve now, i'm still a new user, but i enjoy customizing my ubuntu more than using windows. sure it has some pains, but it's part of linux. linux was never intended for your average home desktop user.

mokmoki
October 26th, 2006, 02:37 AM
it actually took me a week or more just to make my ubuntu up and running, but it was sure worth the wait.

jimmygoon
October 26th, 2006, 02:40 AM
"I like to think that I'm a windows power-user, I have technician's degree in programming, and I'm using win since 10 years now. I have completely customized my winxp (even the install was made by me with nlite)."

Thats your first problem.

The second one: You didn't expect this to happen. Ubuntu wasn't built for mom and pop. Maybe it is MORESO than Debian... but I've never seen a substantiated claim that it is moreso than win...

derekr44
October 26th, 2006, 03:47 AM
I wasn't meaning that Windows is better. That's a completely different discussion in itself. All I was saying is that for simplicity sake and ease of use (and you can argue that Linux is more secure in a completely other topic) this is Linux' weak spot.

Linux is more secure, yes. Linux is more customizeable, yes. Linux gives you more flexilibity, yes. It's just much simpler for the average computer user to pop a cd in and click Install when they want to install a new video card (or something like that) rather than add this type of repository, search for linux-1234.4234-flrgstuv and run sudo this sudo that. Remember, these are the guys that just know how to check their email and look at the NFL scores.

That's all.

Mikey_MW
October 26th, 2006, 04:24 AM
You must have had a really hard time with Linux, hopefully it will improve (I was up and running within the hour on my first install). Not to flame, but Windows is as hard to learn as linux. Its just what you're used to I suppose. Ever tried explaining to mom and pop why you have to click start to shutdown :D

I'm sure someone will have the exact answer you're looking for (trust me, the re-install idea works well until you pick a few things up.)

JayTee
October 26th, 2006, 04:32 AM
Linux was never intended and will NEVER be even close to being used as much as windows on average desktop pc's. Not that windows is better, because it's not, but because of the minimum knowledge necessary.

Dealing with linux will NEVER be as easy as more popular OS's, but that doesn't mean its worse. I personally enjoy linux A LOT, and am very glad I made the switch. I know though that linux will never be as popular as it should be, but I don't really care, everyone doesn't have to use what's best (for me). Less than one percent of people use linux and yet it's completely amazing.

I have to disagree with the main theme of this particular post. Never is an awfully long time. I played with linux in 96, didn't care much for it. I played with it again in 2000. Same thing only less painful. I'm now using Ubuntu almost all the time for personal stuff and only rely on Windows for things I have to do for work. I support over 200 Windows XP users and that's not an easy job but I think I have a good feel for how much a user will accept something or not. Linux and especially Ubuntu has made remarkable progress over the years. It may not be able to go head to head with Windows for the average user now but in 5 years time it just might. Wait till most non-tech users upgrade to Vista and see how well that goes over when they first try to find the Add/Remove programs applet in Control Panel. A long time ago Sean Connery said after filming one of the Bond films, "Never again!" and then a decade later he was filming "Never Say Never Again!" another Bond film.

aysiu
October 26th, 2006, 04:40 AM
I've moved this thread to the Cafe, as it is more of a discussion thread than a support one.
I've also added it to the pile (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=1276564).

If you want to actually do something to make Ubuntu better, read this thread:
What's better than whining on the forums? Making a difference. (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=78741)

If you believe what you're saying is original, read this thread:
general linux winge: don't bother to read or reply (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=169250)

kflorek
October 26th, 2006, 05:41 AM
... I have technician's degree in programming, and I'm using win since 10 years now.

...


Needless to say, of course I'll begin to read faq-s, howto-s and guides, and after some time, I'll propably be a happy Kubuntu user... but I'm not sure that too much average users would do the same after such a frustrating start.
(THE END - phew, that's long...well...thanks for reading :) )

I somewhat disagree with your diagnosis, poisonborz. You are having problems an AVERAGE user probably would not. You are not even close to AVERAGE. The first thing you did was try to change the monitor refresh to above 85Hz? Then you felt like deleting some files? You normally execute files by right clicking in the dialog boxes that come up for selecting data files? (I've been using Windows since 3.0 and it never occured to me this might be done. But thanks for the tip!)

Since I have expended oodles of effort trying to get my head screwed on straight with linux too, here is some philosophy that has got me oriented.

Linux, the OS, is not something visible. In the unix world, KDE is an add-on. KDE is an eye-candy style interface to the OS. KDE is one of many unix Desktops that do not work like one another. Alternative distros that use KDE do the desktop differently -not just the looks, but how it works. Often included are SOME of the KDE setup applets that adjust KDE workings. Alternative window managers (metacity,gdm) may be substituted to create the windows for a Desktop. And a desktop is just a way of doing graphics using X. (If you like to customize, since you are a programmer, you have not yet perceived what vistas are open to you.)

The people that write the programs for linux are programmers (of course) that just love programming and turn every program interface to a into a sort of mini programming language, especially a command line interface. (That is possibly the main attraction that brings programmers to linux.) They consider typing lines of text onto the tube the NORMAL, preferrable and optimally perfect, way of interfacing. Virtually all GUI programs on a desktop are front-ends to a text based program running on an unseen terminal.

Oriented yet?

Since you fortunately started with Ubuntu, you have no idea -really- how confusing and arcane a distro can be :) OTOH I am often amazed how neatly Ubuntu has worked out some things, and once I have figured it out in Ubuntu I can start puzzling my way through it on other distros.

There is really no obstacle I can see to a unix desktop being as convenient as Windows, which is not all that wonderful IAC. But programmers are doing the work, not users like me who are leeching off their work. They do it for their own reasons and the Desktops are basically as they think they ought to be, as far as I can tell.

Except for a few majors, "open" programs are mostly written or revised without pay, just because some one wants to, and for as long as they want to work on it. The programmer does it for his own reasons and has it the way that suits him. He knows the interface, or commands, because he created it, so it is perfectly convenient to him. Many, many of these have no installer, except for the OSes packaging system (deb/rpm), and so no icon, and no menu entry. The programmer knows the name of the program, can type it in at a terminal, and so this is not inconvenient to him. Since these are "open" programs, anyone has the opportunity, if they like and know how, to spruce them up in any way, and to any degree.

The programs that run on linux, are not the OS. But commonly, the way they integrate into the desktop, and the poor use they make of the opportunities of a GUI, are not appealing or convenient.

However a really hard core of unix people do not want it different than it already is. They already know unix encylopedicly, so they are not going to use the new thing, at best, and at worst, altering anything will make THEM have to re-learn. Learning is properly for newbies, not the learned. Windows' style is repugnent to the hard-core's superbly refined esthetics. Concessions to Windows will unavoidably ruin perfection. While getting more people to use linux may be desirable, because Windows is immoral, it is not worth it if the cost is to provide a suitable alternative.

slimdog360
October 26th, 2006, 05:50 AM
well at least your trying.

Polygon
October 26th, 2006, 06:29 AM
as asyisu always states, there are a lot of simple tasks that really could use some GUI editing tools so people dont have to go looking through a 10 page xorg.conf file to change their resolution

sure linux is different from windows, but does that mean that there shouldnt be a easy way to do some things?

and of course the config file will still be there for those people who prefer it

DarkN00b
October 26th, 2006, 06:53 AM
In reading posts by genuine Windows power users here on the forums, I can definitely say this: The more experience you have with Windows, the more trouble you are going to have getting accustomed to Linux.

This is because you have to learn a whole new set of mental reflexes to handle the problems that crop up after a new install. There will always be that one piece of hardware that doesn't quite work correctly or that one piece of software that just won't work the way you expect. This is very frustrating to the average Windows user, and even more to the power user. I mean here you are, someone who has years of experience using the most popular OS in the world. There is no problem you can't solve given a little time.

But let me ask you this: How long did it take you to get to that point? For me it was about three years (around 1999 or so), and I'm no programmer or certified anything. I can't imagine how it is for you.

The one thing Windows users need to keep in mind when using Linux is that Linux is not Windows and your knowledge does not apply. I was so frustrated when my zd1201 wireless USB adapter wouldn't work, when my I855 video wouldn't do direct rendering, but you know what? I used the determination I learned with Windows and eventually got them working. Now I know to keep a backup .deb of my wireless drivers handy if I have to reinstall. :)

My point is that I'm glad you're going to stick with Linux. You'll be rewarded in the end. The biggest hurdle is getting that first install working. After that its a relatively easy OS to use and administer. For me, the added security is the real payoff. I don't have to waste system resources using things like antivirus, spyware detectors, registry cleaners, defraggers and the like. For me it just works.

As for the CLI (OMG in 2006! :) ), It is there because it makes complex tasks simpler. Think about it for a second. If you have the choice of drilling down through layer after layer of GUI clickety-click, or opening a terminal and entering a few lines of text which would you choose? I mean even in Windows I found myself using the command line fairly often.

So yes, Linux will never be a "Windows killer". It was never meant to be. But there is a growing community of people who are finding Linux, and many of them are doing so because of Ubuntu. At least for me, Linux is the logical next step for Windows users once they have attained a certain level of competency. At some point they look at their own knowledge and say, 'now what'. I know I did, so I tried Ubuntu. You know what? I never looked back. After two months I can happily say I never need use Windows again; not because I hate Microsoft (I don't) but because Linux is so much easier for me. I have much less of a headache with Linux than I did with Windows and for me that's all it takes.

Anyway, Linux isn't for everyone. I am glad you're going to stick with it.

/EOF

Lopsicle
October 26th, 2006, 07:13 AM
Before I started using Linux I used to like to think I was an advanced computer user,"Oh boy!" how wrong I was, in truth I was only an advanced windows user and here is where the problems start with many.

Now Im a n00b again and its great (most of the time) ;) Im learning new stuff everyday and even starting to think in Linux rather than windows.Sure its harder but if you enjoy learning and dont mind tinckering around with your system the rewards are great.

BTW what's an NFL scores. is it like Hot or Not? ;)

towsonu2003
October 26th, 2006, 07:38 AM
Needless to say, of course I'll begin to read faq-s, howto-s and guides, and after some time, I'll probably be a happy Kubuntu user... but I'm not sure that too much average users would do the same after such a frustrating start.
(THE END - phew, that's long...well...thanks for reading :) )

that's just you -> having to learn how to use a new operating system without having a teacher to hold your hand.

I have gone (and still am going from time to time, like when the media player crashes) thru these frustrations myself. It will pass, you will "adapt" ;) Just give it some time and be patient.

When you are frustrated, give it a (long-ish) break, boot to Windows, have a coffee :) Then go back to Linux [dual boot]. You wouldn't wanna speak the language you just started to learn all the time, would you?

public_void
October 26th, 2006, 10:17 AM
It depends where you've come from when using a new OS. Most people will start with Windows and so they'll use it as a comparison and have all the Windows habits. You have to put this out the window (lol) and start again.


In reading posts by genuine Windows power users here on the forums, I can definitely say this: The more experience you have with Windows, the more trouble you are going to have getting accustomed to Linux.

I agree, and have seen this apply to using any OS. For exmaple I know a guy who is very smart having be used to Unix most his life. He very content on a Mac and probably would be at home on Linux. However give him a Windows box and he struggles. He'd prefer a CLI anyday.

poisonborz
October 26th, 2006, 10:18 AM
Whew... Yesterday, I had a frustrating first day with Ubuntu, so I've wrote a quick and desperate post just to ease my pain... I've expected some replies, arguing or encouragement, but nothing this overwhelming... Thanks all who read, this community is awesome ;)


The more experience you have with Windows, the more trouble you are going to have getting accustomed to Linux.

This is because you have to learn a whole new set of mental reflexes to handle the problems that crop up after a new install.

I guess this is the most closest to truth. Linux just follows a totally different logic. After some years using an OS, there really can't be any problem you wouldn't know the answer instantly. When you're faced with something totally different, the pain can be more than shocking...

As for the heavy console usage, sure, it can be great and fast, but only if you're know what to type (read: munching trough tons of manuals and guides). GUIs are great just because you know instantly what you're doing, since every button or checkbox has labels, if you're lucky there's built-in point&click help, etc. I still think Linux does need + GUI-s. Consoles and configs are always there as an option.


So, yes, as Dalani said, Linux can be a great hobby, and that's how I'm gonna approach it for now. Of course I still have XP (not dual-boot, just different harddrive, gonna get some GRUB-magic to fix this) but the promise of assembling a far more superior OS is great.

Johnsie
October 26th, 2006, 11:17 AM
How much were you able to do the first week you used Windows? I'd say very little.... It takes time to learn any operating system. The average joe who uses Windows doesn't even know how to do much on that. That's why I end up fixing so many peoples broken windows boxes for them. So it;s fair to say that with most operating system many users are totally lost. This isn't just a Linux issue.

mips
October 26th, 2006, 11:20 AM
Whew... Yesterday, I had a frustrating first day with Ubuntu, so I've wrote a quick and desperate post just to ease my pain... I've expected some replies, arguing or encouragement, but nothing this overwhelming... Thanks all who read, this community is awesome ;)


Thing is if you had no or very little windows experience your mindset & expectations would have been slightly different. Things are different and most people resent change, human nature I suppose.

Have you created a thread with your problems, maybe just post a link to it here so people can assist.

Are you using Breezy, Dapper or Edgy ? Btw. Edgy will be out today.

I never recommend using the Desktop/LiveCD, rather use the Alternate CD to do the install with.

Johnsie
October 26th, 2006, 11:22 AM
I'm the sameabout the livecd... From my experience it's a wee bit too slow for my liking. The alt. cd get straight down to the business of installing.

I only use livecd when I really need to.

bobbybobington
October 26th, 2006, 06:00 PM
There just has to be more gui to configure x, end of argument. While it can only get better, devs really need to make this a priority for feisty. If other distros can do it, we can too... and better!

puppy
October 26th, 2006, 07:38 PM
Actually it's interesting but people like the OP (and me) who are quite expert in Windoze have a really hard time getting used to linux. I'm virtually linux only now (except when the newest games come out, and didn't buy a Nvidia Geforce 6800GT for nothing :p )

Get this though - my flatmate has had Windows XP for ages but importantly *doesn't understand it* (he just uses it for email, web-browsing, documents and organising his vast collection of digital photos). It was totally infested with spyware/malware (I told you he doesn't really know what he's doing on computers!). I made a suggestion - that I would reinstall Windows XP and include only the software he needed to get the job done, but that I would also install something called "linux". Now he prefers running Dapper because, having an old machine, everything just runs faster for him because it's much less bloated (and I have done some tweaking, it has to be said) and he can still do all the things he wants to do with no fuss... I have to say though, thank god for Picasa for linux, because the available alternatives just don't cut for people with large, well-organised photo collections :neutral:

Anyways what I guess I'm saying is that people who just want a computer that *does things* they want to do, don't really care what OS they're running. It's only us "experts" who get our knickers in a twist when things are just that little bit different. Stick with it OP, and you'll find that linux is vastly more configurable than Windoze, and the support available (from this forum) is absolutely amazing - Ubuntu people are the best :-D

Henry Rayker
October 26th, 2006, 07:59 PM
I think the only problem with linux in general is ease of setup. Once the system is set up, it's as stable as a rock and easier/quicker/etc for a general user. The setup is improving, though.

Why is linux not ready for the desktop? Because the manufacturers aren't pre-installing it widely enough.

I would venture to guess....you didn't install windows by yourself (drivers and everything, no OEM manufacturer cds allowed) the first time you used it, did you? Additionally, your first time using Windows, you didn't do as much with your machine as you do now, did you?

The problem with that is first, you grew with the OS...your capabilities and expectations grew and you adapted to what was available. You didn't have to fuss with customizing it the very first time (because you didn't even know you could, more than likely). You didn't have to fuss with drivers and probably didn't even know what they were or what they were for until you bought a piece of hardware that required you to update the drivers.

deepwave
October 26th, 2006, 08:04 PM
Best way of learning anything is to start afresh. This worked me in learning to use Linux, to use console, or to write articles on quantum mechanics.

As an ex-Windows powerusers (5-6 yrs ago) one of the things I did, was reading basic tutorials on Linux. Most of the things I learned in Windows, simply do not translate in Linux (at least literally). I found that starting with a clean slate, I understood Linux better. This works because of the different philosophies behind Windows and Linux.

So keep trying, keep a fresh mind and keep bugging us when you run into a problem you can not figure out on your own.

puppy
October 26th, 2006, 08:20 PM
I agree, how-tos and FAQs are a really good place for the OP to start - I wouldn't necessarily recommend that you read the f****** manual though - some of those really aren't written for (or by) humans I reckon [-(

There are lots of really simple, friendly guides available from here, and places like linuxquestions.org that can introduce you to the basic concepts before you wade in at the deep end... ;)

Ocxic
October 26th, 2006, 10:04 PM
gui for x is called xorg-edit, and it's in the repositories. i use it, it's great for most of the configuration you can even add or delete options from the config file.

loren95404
October 27th, 2006, 06:46 AM
According to my perception, there are a lot of interesting viewpoints on the question IS Linux ready for desktop users. Remember, the majority of these people are people who spend one to three hours on a computer daily. So here's what it boils down to

#1 is is worth it to leave Windows, all my experience, my applications, and my files to try something new

My Answer: Linux and Ubuntu have been fishing for windows users for a LONG time, It's worth it to switch from IE to fifefox because a user can install it with several clicks, and import all their files/bookmarks from Internet Explorer without hastle and waisting time. Being inexperienced in an OS is extreemly frustrating as well, and the second the user can't figure out how to edit their xorg.conf file, they'll jump back to windows and gladly pay for the brandname Microsoft

#2 What will I benefit, what will I loose

My Answer again: XGL is extreemly pretty, three days ago my brother actually WANTED to install SLED 10 because he thought it was usable and cool looking. Yesterday he complained that he did'nt like ubuntu. Before questioning him and his abilities-these are the type of users we are trying to capture. XGL is a benefit, and if I can get him on OSS apps on Windows for a while (which I am, VLC, GAIM, Songbird, Firefox) then I can win him over. There are many applications on Linux that are AWSOME yet unknown, a user will loose most/all his windows applications (you could use WINE, but i'm not going to touch that...) The only other benefit I can think of is that it's all free.

#3 I can't think of #3 right now,

I started exploring linux Spring of 2004 and installed 16 distributons, it took me 3 months, and one of those months I used Kubuntu... after a while I moved back to windows because I was frustrated of things not "just working". Roughly four weeks ago I moved to SLED 10 love it, SLAB, YAST2, and it ran flawlessly, I moved to Ubuntu because of dependency hell with RPMs. Since I installed Ubuntu I configured Xinerama in XORG for the first time, learned some of my fav windows apps were availible on linux, installed VMWare to run photoshop, and ran into hell installing/compiling Uslab, XGL/Compiz (there is no Beryl for Dapper 64) and also USP. If it wasn't for the innovation in Ubuntu I would have left by now, HIVE/Ubuntu Center, and the promised USP2/1.0 with Slab Plugin are holding me here. I'm waiting for Edgy Etch to become socially accepted as stable before I switch from this hell box.


I was reading a while ago about a wise firefox developer, he said this

The things linux must master are:
- Usability
- Ease of switching from competitor (Remember windows always* did this in the 80s, 90s)
- Learning Curve

and there was one other thing that I forgot, free isn't always better just because it's free, you could work at $10/hr for 15 hours and buy windows xp, you could save those fifteen hours and be like me spending 3 months figuring things out-thankfully I like it

emarkay
October 28th, 2006, 03:19 AM
OK, I am not stupid, nor ignorant to computers. I have been around them since the timeserver in high school and the Apple II at my first job in 1982. I grew up with IBM compatibles and learned DOS 3.1, Windows for Workgroups, Windows 95, and Windows 98. (I also now do Windows XP, but fear its backdoors and loopholes). OK, this is all fine and good, but for me, Win98SE is getting less hardware support (and driver support is critical), and some necessary anti-malware programs are, as of 2007, dropping support for Win98SE.

This leaves me to spend a few hundred for XP, and delve into securing it (the NIST and NSA have large documents for using XP at LLNL and other secure sites), or use the next best PC alternative, Linux.
(http://csrc.nist.gov/itsec/guidance_WinXP.html)
(www.nsa.gov/snac/os/winxp/winxp.pdf)

I believed the reporting, (and hype?) and spent a month trying to get some functionality - I bought books and scanned hundreds of websites, and successfully got Ubuntu/Linux to browse the WWW my way (with SeaMonkey) and to open a few documents with OO, and with the default PDF reader. That's fine for some bored housewife, but I have things to do - I am a Independant Consultant and I have things that I have to do to keep me from going stir crazy, and adding a new OS is not one of the things that will make this simpler. I thought it would be easier than Red Hat was a few years ago. It's not!

I have fought Microsoft's single source domination since Autodesk's Autocad dropped support for DOS in the 1990's. I fail to see how intelligent people can succumb to this "alternative OS" scam. I thought the Open Source community would solve this and allow an easy migration for those who were willing or needed to migrate. But no. Every Tom, **** and Uber Geek wants their program to be the best and brightest, and to have their program in every repository somewhere; Just like every Window$ program wants it's own desktop Icon and a place on the main start menu. Haven't we learned anything? Additionally, some really well crafted programs are off in far left field, behind some old resume, languishing with no support or documentation - this happens in Windows with esoteric things, but Ubuntu places more emphasis dweeby games and ham radio programs in the main repositories than stand alone address books and default codecs! At least in Window$, there's the hourglass of MS's iron fist to insure that the program at least works. Here it's a free-for-all!

Look at my posts here; 135 in less than a month. Sure some are IMHO's and comments, but I STILL have not found a secure address book so that I can print addresses and mail packages to my parents or, even after opening up to the potentially "psycho world of anything goes" Universal repositories, found codecs to play some INDUSTRY STANDARD file formats! I mean what's the friggen deal here? Look at this list of NOTHINGS - no play, no nothing!:

ASF = Nothing
ASX = Nothing
AVI = Nothing
AVI = OK
BMP = OK
DWG = Nothing
FLV = Nothing
GIF = No Animation
HTML= OK
JPG = OK
MID = Nothing
MP3 = OK
MP4 = Nothing
MPG = Sound, no Image
MPEG= Nothing
PCX = OK
PDF = OK, but no text select
PNG = OK
MOV = Nothing
RMVB= Nothing
RM = Nothing
RMI = Nothing
SWF = Nothing
TIF = OK
WAV = OK
WMV = Nothing
DOC = OK
WPW = OK
WP = OK
WPG = Nothing

Is this some "Emperor's New Clothes" scenario where we all fall into line and say "Ubuntu, Ubuntu", and accept some crippled excuse for Windows for Workgroups and call it the new wave?

Or am I the longtail minority, who wants to view my old PCX files (Um, I CAN in Ubuntu, but a modern AVI or MP4? Nope!), use a better browser and provide some personal security based on 15 years of hacking, virii and "social engineering" research - Yea, I know about the Cap'n Crunch whistle and a lot more...

If it's supposed to be a "drop-in-replacement" for the M$ domination, Mr. Shuttleworth, you need to stop tooting your own horn and start cracking some whips and look at the fundamentals of reality! I challenge you, or anyone touting Ubuntu as such, to see if you can get me, a hardened curmudgeon, to a point where I can reformat my HDU's into a full Linux environment, to perform fundamentally basic operations in Ubuntu, and to be able to find what I need with the known simplicity of searching, confirming, installing and running the applicatino, plugin or program that will do what it says, with the security of both common sense and confidence that it will do what it says, and what I have expected, based on its description.

I don't feel as though my weeks of time have been wasted, but it proves that Linux is "not ready for the masses", and to me, a believer in the good of the intelligencia of computing, this is a sincere let-down, and a serious dissapointment.

Hey Mark, send me an email.

MRK@emarkay.com

kvonb
October 28th, 2006, 03:25 AM
Poor baby :(

The CODECS you need are owned by Microsoft and in your country it is illegal to install them without first paying a fee to the owner of the patent, hence they are not included as default in Ubuntu.

I suggest you write the same complaint to Microsoft, oh wait, there's no way of contacting Microsoft unless you give them your credit card info!

My ten year old got Ubuntu working in 2 hours, playing wmvs, mpeg4, flash, google earth, and the ONLY thing that taxes modern computers - 3d games, but you couldn't even get e-mail working?

You must have missed the "click here to install the LET ME WIPE YOUR **** FOR YOU BECAUSE YOU ARE A SPOILT ROTTEN SELF CENTRED EGOMANIAC" button!

There's no pleasing some people!

I'm going to be chastised by the Ubuntu community for this reply, but it's worth it! Everybody at some time comes to the point where he can't bite his tongue anymore.

Your post shows your complete arrogance, stupidity, and lack of respect for anyone other than your miserable, worthless self.

People throughout the world have spent a lot of their time and effort writing software for NO MONEY, others put their own money into making this collection of software into something that YOU downloaded for NO MONEY because you wanted to save some of YOUR MONEY and because you know in your heart that Microsoft products have their limitations, then you turn around and slap them in the face and say that it is rubbish and not worthy of your precious time!

Did you lose your broom-stick? I suggest looking in your trousers, because something is jammed up there!

Take a long hard look in the mirror son, you are not a very likeable person.

aysiu
October 28th, 2006, 03:29 AM
We don't need another separate one of these. If you want to whine, whine here.

Otherwise, read this:
What's better than whining on the forums? Making a difference. (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=78741)

Dual Cortex
October 28th, 2006, 03:30 AM
Heh, all I got to say it's use the forum's search function. I recognize most of the formats you listed and all of them are supported by Ubuntu, and I MYSELF have been able to open/play, and edit files with those formats. I'm no more than 3 weeks old in the linux world. Maybe it's just your impatience or your hardware... But most likely it is YOU.

aysiu
October 28th, 2006, 03:33 AM
More reading for you:
All my favorite Linux desktop readiness threads... (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=219243)
Is Ubuntu for You? (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=63315)
Anatomy of a well-intentioned Linux Troll (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=58017)
The Linux Desktop Myth (http://www.psychocats.net/essays/linuxdesktopmyth)

emarkay
October 28th, 2006, 03:33 AM
Aysiu, I thought at leasy you'd understand. You have bee na fundamental supporter of this and have offered many hours of your time.

It's not a whine - I have no time for that "Gen-x" shite.

It's a comment on the realities - can you provide any substance to dispute ANYTHING I have said?

MRK

aysiu
October 28th, 2006, 03:34 AM
Aysiu, I thought at leasy you'd understand. You have bee na fundamental supporter of this and have offered many hours of your time.

It's not a whine - I have no time for that "Gen-x" shite.

It's a comment on the realities - can you provide any substance to dispute ANYTHING I have said?

MRK
Yes, I've posted links. Read them.

emarkay
October 28th, 2006, 03:37 AM
Heh, all I got to say it's use the forum's search function. I recognize most of the formats you listed and all of them are supported by Ubuntu, and I MYSELF have been able to open/play, and edit files with those formats. I'm no more than 3 weeks old in the linux world. Maybe it's just your impatience or your hardware... But most likely it is YOU.

DC, I have 8 to 10 hours a day to spend on the PC. If I downloaded all the codecs for Tango and they still don't play - what more can I do?

Again - what have you done different thatI SERIOUSLY?

Am I that ingrained in to the mindless simplicity of Windows - maybe then I need to jsut get an Apple PC?

Come on, you so called Linux exprts. show some solidarity with an old timer - but one who's burned enough hours to find it beyond the point of viable returns.

MRK

emarkay
October 28th, 2006, 03:39 AM
Poor baby :(

That's the SPV, from Captain Scarlet, isn't it?

I wish you could offer more than a smarmy comment...

I am so frustrated it's keeping me from doing the documentation for a client!

MRK

emarkay
October 28th, 2006, 03:41 AM
Yes, I've posted links. Read them.

Doing so now...

odinfromvalhalla
October 28th, 2006, 03:41 AM
@emarkay:

there is something that you don't understand i can see. Ubuntu aims to be a FREE OS. TOTALY FREE! That means it won't install by default all the codecs, flash player, java, unrar, unace, and so many many other for you because THEY ARE NOT FREE!!

the fact that you are not able to open some crappy files you have in i don't know what formats it's not Ubuntu's fault. It's your fault that you don't know to browse the wiki, the forum and google to find the solution!

it's not ubuntu's fault that macromedia (now adobe) did not develop flash for linux so you can open flv, swf or fla. that fault is mine, and yours and to all the comunity maybe because we did not found a solution to that. maybe a solution was not mandatory, maybe there were some other things to do that wer e more important.

what Linux (Ubuntu in our case) offers is FREEDOM!!
Linux is not perfect! But because it gives me freedom it's much better than Windows or OSX.

qamelian
October 28th, 2006, 03:43 AM
There are some things in Linux that I wished they fixed such as the refresh rate problem.

I could say the same thing about Windows
on my desktop box. I have yet to do an install of Windows that correctly set the refresh rate correctly for my nvidia card. No OS is perfect, but which one is more perfect really depends on each individuals needs.

emarkay
October 28th, 2006, 03:46 AM
Doing so now...

Da-yim, Aysiu, (yes, I speed read) good points, but something is missing - why does the Ubuntu factions claim it's easier than Redhat or Debian or anyon else's personal flavour of Linux - it's STILL not a DROP IN replacement for the M$ domination.

Or did I get it wrong - it's NOT INTENDED to REPLACE M$, it's just supposed to be something else to play with?

I abhor capatalism and the "yuppie" mentality, but in the USA you have to at least pay teh piper for your food and water, so I have to at least make a few dollars a month. Window$ has a monopoly and is faltering in acceptance and functionality, and there is a great need for an alternative - I BELIEVED THAT UBUNTU WAS IT.

Am I truly wrong?

MRK

emarkay
October 28th, 2006, 03:51 AM
@emarkay:

there is something that you don't understand i can see. Ubuntu aims to be a FREE OS. TOTALY FREE! That means it won't install by default all the codecs, flash player, java, unrar, unace, and so many many other for you because THEY ARE NOT FREE!!

the fact that you are not able to open some crappy files you have in i don't know what formats it's not Ubuntu's fault. It's your fault that you don't know to browse the wiki, the forum and google to find the solution!

it's not ubuntu's fault that macromedia (now adobe) did not develop flash for linux so you can open flv, swf or fla. that fault is mine, and yours and to all the comunity maybe because we did not found a solution to that. maybe a solution was not mandatory, maybe there were some other things to do that wer e more important.

what Linux (Ubuntu in our case) offers is FREEDOM!!
Linux is not perfect! But because it gives me freedom it's much better than Windows or OSX.

Vehement anger - that's not nice...

Of course I know they aren't free, but then, again, most of those "Crappy" formats are obsolete and should at least HAVE a Google link.

I personally hate FLV and flash, but then again, why hasn't someone OS'd it instead of making a 15th variation on Tetris or some obscure fractal program; Yes that's mean, but with all the good talent, I mean NOTHING is permanently patented - there's always a reverse engineering and a community of supporters to fight the monopolies.

"Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose...." or in this case a great slogan, but it doesn't amount to a hill of beans if there's work to be done.

MRK

3rdalbum
October 28th, 2006, 03:57 AM
Haven't you used Automatix or EasyUbuntu? Pretty much all of the file formats you've listed are usable with Ubuntu, even the closed-source ones; those two programs I mentioned can set everything up for you.

What the original poster should remember is this: Your Windows knowledge is working against you. When I started using Ubuntu, I'd never owned a Windows license and had only barely used other people's PCs. Sure, it took me a little while to figure out the codecs, but that's because Automatix wasn't available for PowerPC so I had to do it all "manually". Ubuntu was easy for me, because I wasn't used to the Windows way of doing it all. When I finally bought a PC, I floundered on Windows as much as you floundered on Linux.

I'm not sure why the OP wanted so badly to run programs from within an Open/Save dialog, but I'm amused at his notion that Ubuntu is somehow primitive because of its command-line. The first day I used my Windows PC, I found myself having to go into its command line just to transcode some MP3s to WMAs. Oh sure, there may be a GUI frontend, but Microsoft doesn't provide one.

emarkay
October 28th, 2006, 03:59 AM
Read a few again and still reiterate my point - Linus is NOT Windows. That is obvious.

But Ithought Ubuntu was supposed to be a suitable REPLACEMENT for Windows, albeit with a bit of research.

I cringe at thinking what I would have been doing all last month if I knew NOTHING about the c: prompt, used Outlook and IE only, and wanted Active-X scripts and Youtube Videos to play, while some DRM music and Solitare were set in the background..

Dammit I just wanted to get some work done.
Doesn't anyone get this?

"If you want an OS that doesn't chauffeur you around, but hands you the keys, puts you in the driver's seat, and expects you to know what to do: Get Linux. You'll have to devote some time to learning how to use it, but once you've done so, you'll have an OS that you can make sit up and dance."

OK, I drive a Z28, and mad many modifications, but I still can go to the dealer or to NAPA and get parts and mods - and even a hacksaw and a Dremel have been handy.

"If you really just want Windows without the malware and security issues: Read up on good security practices; install a good firewall, malware-detector, and anti-virus; replace IE with a more secure browser; and keep yourself up-to-date with security updates. There are people out there (myself included) who've used Windows since 3.1 days right through to XP without ever being infected with a virus or malware: you can do it too. Don't get Linux: It will fail miserably at being what you want it to be."

OK, just like RedHat in the 1990's... But I thought Ubuntu was different.

"If you really want the security and performance of a Unix-based OS but with a customer-focussed attitude and an world-renowned interface: Buy an Apple Mac. OS X is great. But don't get Linux: It will not do what you want it to do."

OMFG, just what I need, the hammerhead of M$ with a Gen-X attitude. I think I'll just go to bed now.

http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm

Thus Ubuntu is NOT ready for the Masses...

MRK

3rdalbum
October 28th, 2006, 03:59 AM
Ubuntu is an alternative to Windows, but it was never intended to be a drop-in replacement. Why replace something that's not very good, with something else that copies it?

iovar
October 28th, 2006, 04:06 AM
I mean NOTHING is permanently patented - there's always a reverse engineering...

Nope. Patents essentially kill reverse engineering since, in order to be
granted, every last detail is made public. This makes it impossible
to prove in a court that the clean-room method has been used.

All your uber-l33t experience didn't teach you that?

emarkay
October 28th, 2006, 04:08 AM
Ubuntu is an alternative to Windows, but it was never intended to be a drop-in replacement. Why replace something that's not very good, with something else that copies it?

Literally, I replaced a 1965 Impala (and a 1986 Caprice) with a 200 Z28 Camaro - a little less trunk space, but a tremendous inprovement in functionality.

I thought Ubuntu would have the 4 wheels and steering wheel of the 1965, the comfort and reliability of the 1986 and the PCM controlled EFI and spark and the 4 speed overdrive of the Camaro.

I was misled, apparently. It's still a VW powered homebrew dune buggy - almost not even street legal.

MRK

mitchtanz
October 28th, 2006, 04:11 AM
[QUOTE=DarkN00b;1664812]In reading posts by genuine Windows power users here on the forums, I can definitely say this: The more experience you have with Windows, the more trouble you are going to have getting accustomed to Linux.

This is because you have to learn a whole new set of mental reflexes to handle the problems that crop up after a new install. There will always be that one piece of hardware that doesn't quite work correctly or that one piece of software that just won't work the way you expect. This is very frustrating to the average Windows user, and even more to the power user. I mean here you are, someone who has years of experience using the most popular OS in the world. There is no problem you can't solve given a little time.

***This is EXACTLY what happened in my 4 months of Ubuntu.

1. All excited, got it installed a breeze.

2. Umm partitioning little confused - Bu**ered it up three times. Never partitioned for dual-boot before-was conservative-only 5GB out of 20 available.

3. Played around with my first install for 2 weeks. On my old 256MB RAM 850Mhz Acer (with a not-so-good-motherboard)--wow I want more..oopsy

4. Well tinkered and mucked it up---slowly discovered this Community. Finally fixed my problems.

5. Now I want 50/50 install on Hdd so reinstalled ubuntu completely-easiest solution-at 10GB and transferrred all but games to Ubuntu. Open Office used now on BOTH OSs.

6. Taken me 2 more months of Freezes and funny crashes to realise my approach WAS Windows orientated - MAINLY through reading this Community. NOW Ubuntu is more STABLE than XP (not that my tinkered XP isn't) but much MORE smooth oh yes getting really sexy. It IS more efficient than Windows as an OS and it is going 100% on my NEW computer. I've been re-educated!

Thank You Community of *buntu users-your fantastic!

Best Wishes
Mitch

emarkay
October 28th, 2006, 04:12 AM
Nope. Patents essentially kill reverse engineering since, in order to be
granted, every last detail is made public. This makes it impossible
to prove in a court that the clean-room method has been used.

All your uber-l33t experience didn't teach you that?

L33t - OK It took me a while to get l0pht... all that cutsey crap doesn't get you free long distance trunk lines...
And who in their experimental mind has ever been afraid of a patented product and making a better version? Clean room, shream room, it's only importent as to how how you have it represented by council - that's the 'merikken way!

If it's possible it can be done. Only poseurs and wimps disagree.

MRK

emarkay
October 28th, 2006, 04:18 AM
Mitch and others, thanks for constructive replies - OK Easy Ubuntu and Automatix - I have looked at them and said "I can do that on my own and have better control." (but apparently not...) And if they are so essential, why doesn't Cannonical license them and include them in the main distro???

This is still my point - Ubuntu is NOT ready for the masses!

BTW, I have no Ubuntu dual boot hardware probs - god, satan and Clapton forbid if I did! I'd be drooling by now...

I am not abandoning Ubuntu, but I can not devote any more time to getting it to do the simple tasks I need - let alone want.

It's that simple.

MRK

Good night.

BTW, I'd even volunteer a week (I'd clear my schedule) to play a "Windows to Ubuntu tester" for Canonical. I'd do it for my own selfish reasons AND to see if it really is possible to beat MS at it's own game.

My personal email:
mrk@emarkay.com

Thank you.

Cynical
October 28th, 2006, 04:27 AM
I personally hate FLV and flash, but then again, why hasn't someone OS'd it instead of making a 15th variation on Tetris or some obscure fractal program; Yes that's mean, but with all the good talent, I mean NOTHING is permanently patented - there's always a reverse engineering and a community of supporters to fight the monopolies.

Have you not heard of gnash (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnash)?

Personally I think the only reason they released flash player 9 for linux was becase they were afraid of a free implementation that would work on all platforms, thus taking away their control over the format.


And if they are so essential, why doesn't Cannonical license them and include them in the main distro???
Because the goal of Ubuntu is to make a FREE distro. There are others that charge money and add support for these things, you might want to try them.


Thus Ubuntu is NOT ready for the Masses...

I dunno, I think its funny that my mom handles the transition to linux easier than you do.

halitech
October 28th, 2006, 04:41 AM
Hi Mark,

I'm not going to go over everything else that has been said by others (and probably beter then what I could say) but I did want to give a word of encouragement. I was also what I considered a "power user" in windows. I had heard about linux years ago and had given them tries and always ran back to windows like a beaten dog because they were so hard to figure out. Back in February, I found out about Ubuntu. I ran the live cd a few times, found it seemed to like all my hardware except my lexmark printers (not a fault of Ubuntu, they don't seem to work anywhere except Windows). I have another computer that my girlfriend uses running win2000 and the printers are hooked to that computer so didn't worry about printing. I installed Breezy in a dual boot with Brezy being the default. I found I spent more time in windows then I did in linux because of 2 or 3 things I couldn't figure out.

From the first boot, I started coming here to look for answers. I've posted very few questions myself because it seemed like someone had already had every problem I was running into. Thanks to Automatix and easyubuntu, I've been able to play everything I've come across, open every image file, open/edit any office doc.

There's only been 1 app that I haven't ben able to find a replacement in linux and that is Jasc Paint Shop Pro (yes I know about GIMP but just can't seem to get my head around it) so I've given up my image work on my computer and when I want something, I go to the windows box (and yes, it will work under WINE but haven't reinstalled it yet).

Guess what I'm trying to get at it is this, the more you think you know, the more Linux will show you that you don't know and yes, it can be very humbling but, it can also be very rewarding to be able to shed the MS yoke.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

esaym
October 28th, 2006, 04:52 AM
The reason I have gotten into linux is because I just don't see why I should spend so much money for one of microsoft's cds. And then on top of that you get all that nagging WGA crap. In the new vista os it is looking like WGA is going to be even worse. I personally just can't take it. My move to linux was liberated some because I don't play windows games anymore like I used to (I used to be a hardcore gamer), although I have been enjoying the original unreal tournament for linux.

To top it off some more I have been running slackware on a box for a webserver for a couple of years now, plus I run smoothwall as my gateway on my network. I played around with mandrake about 4 years ago too. This is all how I got into linux. However, after spending about 100 hours trying to use slackware as a desktop for a laptop I had just bought, I finally gave up on it and at the last minute I downloaded and installed kubuntu. I was amazed at how easy this os is compared to what I am used to.

IMO, you can't just go to linux. You have to have a personal reason. Something to drive you to spend hours reading how-tos and forum posts just so you can figure a problem out. Like I said, my driving force is my hatred of microsoft and plus I am trying to get experience for a future linux job

;)

odinfromvalhalla
October 28th, 2006, 05:04 AM
@emarkay:

I'm sick of people saying that Ubuntu (or any other distro) is not good, that it does not have that and so on. For me linux is just great, because on linux i'm able to work. On windows i had to format my PC once a week cuz i got infected with worms.

Linux is not for everyone. If it's not for you, don't use it and stop bitching.

seshomaru samma
October 28th, 2006, 05:15 AM
and for 90% I had to use the command line... in 2006??
If you dont like using the command line there are other Linux distros that are more suitable. Open SuSE is one of them . Though Ubuntu has a great forum and wonderful support it is not necessarily the easiest distro to migrate to (though easier than Debian)

Yossarian
October 28th, 2006, 05:57 AM
Linux is like drugs: when its good, it's very very good.

When its bad, it's still pretty good.

And then it's time to get another beer.

SunnyRabbiera
October 28th, 2006, 06:11 AM
The thing that gripes me is people go to linux in hopes it will replace windows...
It is a windows alternative, it is not meant as a replacement.
Of course things are going to be different between linux and windows, its the main reason why we call one linux and the other windows...
Another thing that gripes me is the misconception that Windows is easier, it is not by any means heck I find Linux easier then windows in some places.
Take this for example:
For windows you have to constanly clean it out, make sure it is virus, spyware and adware free... keep it updated constantly.
With linux this is absent.
I also find windows harder to install then linux, first you go though at least a half hour just to install XP then after that restart it 96 times just to get all the updates in.
With both Ubuntu and Mepis I have had a smooth ride, about the same time to install as windows yes but not as much irritation afterwards.
Then there are tools to make Ubuntu and Mepis easier like automatix, synaptic and the like. It is completely possible to get Linux fully working in a matter of hours... it takes days just to make Windows remotely usable as since IE is so insecure you are better off installing another browser like Firefox or opera right off...
Then comes the installation of antivirus, antispyware and anti adware programs, if you dont know of the free spyware, adware and spyware programs you can spend hundreds of dollars just to get yourself up to speed.
Then there are office programs and graphics programs, Microsoft Office $300
Adobe Photoshop $800
Knowing people spent a lot of money on programs that have a free alternative to them... priceless.
Now there are problems in linux i admit, but there can be just as frustrating issues under windows.
Here is a article that amuses me:
here (http://matthias-endler.de/?p=41)

xpod
October 28th, 2006, 11:44 AM
I like to think that I'm a windows power-user, I have technician's degree in programming, and I'm using win since 10 years now

THATS your problem m8!
Im one of the lucky ones who has just discovered computers and had only used windows for the same few months ive now used Ubuntu ...in it`s various forms.
I`ve had occasion to install many ubu`s and many xp`s(even an m.e)and i can safely say that there was nothing "user friendly" about an xp install.....Especially with no xp cd`s](*,)

Surely as a guy with computer experience you understand that these things take time.......Did you instantly "know" everything you needed to the very first time you booted a windows pc...or any pc?

Im just a normal family guy with a few kids who dont know much about computers but i know enough to know that you`ll probably change your mind
..........IF you give it time.
Try posting to resolve your issues as apose to lambasting it before you`ve even gave it a chance.:???:

In my very limited and humble opinion i think this puts windows to shame in more ways than one and if the user at least tries to make friends with it you`ll find it soon becomes as "user friendly" as any windows you`ve ever used...More so with the command line even.Dont windows pro`s use it in windows??....I thought an expert would understand how much better it can be regardless of how archaic it might "seem"

Close your windows and open your mind m8;)
Good luck...regardless

From a complete pc ignaramous:mrgreen:

AlphaMack
October 28th, 2006, 12:14 PM
OMFG, just what I need, the hammerhead of M$ with a Gen-X attitude. I think I'll just go to bed now.

http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm

Thus Ubuntu is NOT ready for the Masses...


Ubuntu isn't ready for the masses? Seems more like it isn't ready for you.

I have one word for you: Automatix. Try it sometime. If you can't even figure that one out, I don't know what else to tell you other than the fact you have a PBKAC.

kvonb
October 28th, 2006, 12:20 PM
I don't know what else to tell you other than the fact you have a PBKAC

OK, I'll bite, what is a PBKAC? :D

Christmas
October 28th, 2006, 01:25 PM
Just an observation.

I had to use the command line... in 2006
Well the command line is powerful in 2006 the same way it was 10 years ago. I use it very often for working with audio files (flac, wav, ogg) and converting different formats. Even if it looks better, a graphical interface for some task is generally slower than CLI.

GeneralZod
October 28th, 2006, 01:29 PM
I don't know what else to tell you other than the fact you have a PBKAC

OK, I'll bite, what is a PBKAC? :D

"Problem Between Keyboard And Chair" i.e. "user error" :)

MedivhX
October 28th, 2006, 01:40 PM
...I hope I won't upset anyone, but I feel I have to tell this...


I agree with this first post. Linux is currently not an OS for non-geek users... I really hope that it will become, but still maybe it's better to stay this way...

mahy
October 28th, 2006, 02:14 PM
Ok, here are my $0.02:

Who told you command line is bad/outdated/nerdy/whatever? Personally, i think that typing "emerge <program name>" ("emerge" is just my alias for "sudo apt-get install" :mrgreen: ) is far easier than starting some huge C++ resource hog /*read: Synaptic*/ (2 mouseclicks and password typing), looking the program up in the index (scrolling down or search), selecting it (2 mouseclicks), Apply (one mouseclick + one more to close Synaptic). You'll get this perception over time, surely.

Standalone installers are a curse of windows! Even MS devised their own package format, it's called MSI. You must've heard about it. As for installation from sources, i don't like it either. Every project should bother to provide at least plain .tar.gz binary packages, just like, say, Mozilla does.

Yes, window's GUI is basically better than Ubuntu's (and Linux's in general), so what? There are more important things than being able to run an executable from MSPaint's 'Open File' dialog. The thing i hate in Linux are useless GUI apps. For example a network status monitor that shows the whereabouts of your connection, but you can change nothing in there, not even connect/disconnect (not to mention WPA). Or a hardware browser that displays your USB ports but you can mount/umount nothing. Such apps drive me mad.

I'm pretty sure your first days with windows were quite rough as well. Don't worry, it'll get better. Unless of course you have som rogue hardware, but that's remotely not Linux's fault.

aysiu
October 28th, 2006, 05:09 PM
Da-yim, Aysiu, (yes, I speed read) good points, but something is missing - why does the Ubuntu factions claim it's easier than Redhat or Debian or anyon else's personal flavour of Linux - it's STILL not a DROP IN replacement for the M$ domination.

Or did I get it wrong - it's NOT INTENDED to REPLACE M$, it's just supposed to be something else to play with?

I abhor capatalism and the "yuppie" mentality, but in the USA you have to at least pay teh piper for your food and water, so I have to at least make a few dollars a month. Window$ has a monopoly and is faltering in acceptance and functionality, and there is a great need for an alternative - I BELIEVED THAT UBUNTU WAS IT.

Am I truly wrong?

MRK I really think you should read all of the links I posted. It may take a while, but everything you're saying has been said many times before (in almost exactly the same way) and refuted many times before (in almost exactly the same way as people are refuting them now).

The fact you're repeating these ideas again (not in any different or qualified way) leads me to believe you skimmed only one or two of the links I posted.

You don't have to agree with the rebuttals to your arguments, but you have to at least acknowledge them. You haven't, for example, even addressed the role preinstallation or acculturation plays in this debate about Linux "desktop readiness."

At the very least, read the Linux Desktop Myth one.

You seem to still subscribe to the notion that "ready for the masses" means "anyone will be able to and be inclined to download and burn an ISO, set BIOS to boot from CD, repartition her drive, install and configure a new operating system... on any hardware," which, as I stated before leads me to believe you didn't actually read all the links I posted.

B0rsuk
October 28th, 2006, 06:20 PM
and for 90% I had to use the command line... in 2006??)

Why not ? It's faster, more flexible, customizable, scriptable, works via ssh (everything you can do in console you can do remotely), doesn't glue you to one specific app/distro, teaches you how linux works. Why stick to silly gui which hides things from you, and only teaches you how the system looks, not how it works ? Once you know your way around, GUI literally slows you down. I can listen to music, view images and watch movies in console. I don't see why should you do things the inferior way just because it's 2006. You're criticizing something you don't understand. I used both commandline (Starting with DOS, not unix or something equally hardcore) and GUIs (what, 10 years of using windows ?). I learned to love commandline. I don't have any icons on desktop, I just alt~ type three first letters, hit tab, enter. For me, desktop is for displaying the wallpaper.

As for your problem, you uninstalled something without actually knowing what it is. You've been given much more freedom - windows doesn't let you to do these things, unless you start deleting files manually, perhaps. You should've been more careful.

I'm forced to use windows workstation at work, and let me tell you, I feel crippled without commandline. Also, the app we're using is mouse-heavy. My right wrist hurts.

yage
October 29th, 2006, 12:54 AM
Dunno what to say to this... maybe Linux is not for everybody? I have had bigger issues with MS than with *nix! And i think you may have come over a bad howto on installing the nvidia drivers dude. About installing them with point and click... think Automatix does this for you? anyone....? Btw. Edgy is not beta. But Dapper has the Long Term Support!

OMJD
October 29th, 2006, 12:58 AM
I suggest just getting used to it, and not giving up if you get stuck. This forum is very helpful for solving problems, as is Google.

Make yourself a promise and keep away from Windows if you really want to become competent in using Linux.

Blutack
October 29th, 2006, 01:02 AM
Don't stay away from windows too long. When I'm at parties I get very confused by windows media player now. Amarok is just so god damn logical (and just generally better in every way)!

aysiu
October 29th, 2006, 01:07 AM
No reason to have two of these going on at the same time.

Merged.

raqball
October 29th, 2006, 01:15 AM
Linux is ACTUALLY very easy to use if people would spend a little time learning it. I think many are so use to the numb and dumb windoze os that they just accept it as it is and do not question the fact that they have to use a firewall, anti-virus, spyware and defragment apps.

It's the norm and it's what they are use to using. I think if they spent the same amount of time learning linux that they spend defragmenting, updating and scanning anti-virus, and updating and scanning spyware, that they would not only feel m ore comfortable using linux but they would really start to see the LARGE difference.

cunawarit
October 29th, 2006, 01:15 AM
Dunno what to say to this... maybe Linux is not for everybody? I have had bigger issues with MS than with *nix!

It is dependant on many factors, what tasks you want to carry out and your hardware are key.

Nobody will be happy if they can't get a bit of hardware working, and different OS have different apps suited to different tasks.

I am happy with Debian, but I won't be giving up Windows. Choice is a great thing...

vibestriton
October 29th, 2006, 01:19 AM
.

aysiu
October 29th, 2006, 01:21 AM
Some helpful links:
What's better than whining on the forums? Making a difference. (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=78741)
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CriticismFAQ

jdunn
October 29th, 2006, 01:26 AM
Linux is not for everyone. Some people prefer the "one click - no questions asked - driver update" that an OS like M$ Windows affords. Other people like to know whats being added to their computer and prefer using the command-line for some tasks. It would be nice to have it entirely both ways but I don't see that happening soon for any OS.

Linux also requires patience. I figure no one knows that more than me because 80% of the questions I ask on this forum go unanswered. So when I do a fresh install of Edgy and can't get DPMS working or discover a 150ms audio delay playing DVDs on Kaffeine, I can usually count on having to solve the problem on my own, which can take minutes or months. If I'm lucky, people actually reply to my threads with possible solutions, saving me time and effort. I think that's what the community is supposed to be for.

Regarding your monitor refresh: If your monitor make and model are not listed, one of the generic drivers will sometimes do. For example, I've never seen drivers for my Sony flat panel display on any linux distro, so I use the generic flatpanel 1280x1024 driver instead. The lack of drivers is no fault of Linux, Its the fault of the hardware manufacturers. Many manufacturers only make drivers for M$ Windblows and won't pony up any tech info so, linux drivers are created by reverse engineering the hardware.

Blutack
October 29th, 2006, 01:44 AM
Merged? Ah that would make sense. Very confused for a minute there. Apologies to the guy I told to stick to 6.06. I can't believe I missed that edgy is up!...[scurries off to change sources.list]. Being mean to the forum ain't gonna get your problems sorted any faster mate.

raqball
October 29th, 2006, 02:03 AM
apologies to the guy I told to stick to 6.06. I can't believe I missed ahat edgy is up!...[scurries off to change sources.list]. Being mean to the forum ain't gonna get your problems sorted any faster mate.

No need.... 6.06 is LTS and it rules :)

fuscia
October 29th, 2006, 02:21 AM
I like to think that I'm a windows power-user,

i think of myself as a punch card power user and, to me, linux in the console, is a step up (none of this damn gooey crap).

PixelCloud
October 29th, 2006, 04:17 AM
has anyone here actually looked at the support forums? they are filled with people begging for help since edgy broke so many things.


linux is plagued with problems, such as limited hardware support (OMG BROADCOM), and most importantly, a lack of unity and standards...


where are my files?

/bin or /sbin or /usr/bin /usr/local/bin

ubuntu needs a major overhaul if you ever expect it to have a chance against windows :P

Cyraxzz
October 29th, 2006, 05:00 AM
Actually it is ready but the users aren't.

icehot
October 29th, 2006, 08:33 AM
I kinda agree with this thread too, i think this goes back to what I've said for a long time with linux, that it's fantastic for beginners, cos everything is preinstalled, on a basic machine, with not too fancy hardware it all just kinda works, and your average computer user (which is about 95% of them) can just type away in openoffice, or chat on kopete or whatever and that's fine.

It's also great for the advanced user who knows what hardware interrupts are and how they work, they know the ins and outs of their machine, they can understand C code, and find the command line gives them a warm feeling of reminiscence of the old days... They can also figure out and after reading and learning a bit, appreciate the way linux works. Then they can configure it however they want... Though I believe this is where I am, I do still have some annoyances, in that although the CLI is powerful, it shouldnt be needed, sometimes i do feel lazy after a hard days work and just want to tick check boxes too. And although I'd get flamed for this by the linux die hards, package management although useful in someways is quite annoying, and is only needed cos files are all over the place in linux, and lazy programmers cant be bothered making installers that have all the libraries needed and dont seem to want to put everything in one convenient location for their one program - yes i do love installshield and the likes. Other annoyances like PDF's wont print on my printer in the right place on the paper (seems to print half a page right at the top of the paper - it's weird) probably a print driver problem, but still annoying... erm, the graphics drivers are a pain, and having to tweak xorg.conf although easy enough to do, as I said again, is annoying when u feel lazy. Also things aren't very integrated, although Ubuntu does it's best their, and from the outset things appear very well integrated, it's when say you're using Kubuntu, and you install firefox yourself and other programs from the repo's that you start noticing it, that firefox wont use KDE's file associations, you have to sit there for days on end filling them all in manually again. Mostly these are hardware manufactures faults, app writers faults (ie as with firefox) and not linux's at all... but the end result is, that the user doesnt quite feel the polish and tight integration of things. Though when you get Beryl working it becomes all worth it, (had a play with that last night, and damn that looks wicked).

Going back to the main point though, I think for either advanced windows users (not advanced computer users), or intermediate computer users - those users who know enough to configure things a bit, to know what will happen when they change settings, may have even tweaked the registry by hand before, but dont really know what's going on under the hood so to speak, i think is where Linux will end up being extremely frustrating to begin with, and unless they have natural aptituted to pick these things up or the willingness to read and learn a lot, they will end up going back to their familiar windows.

Reshin
October 29th, 2006, 09:00 AM
Actually it is ready but the users aren't.
Dude, that just makes it worse.

slimdog360
October 29th, 2006, 09:20 AM
hahha, I love these threads.
There should be a sign on the linux welcome mat saying, "If your looking for a windows replacement this is not it. Linux works completely different to winodws and as such you must spend more then 3 minutes learning how to use it".

aysiu
October 29th, 2006, 09:22 AM
hahha, I love these threads.
There should be a sign on the linux welcome mat saying, "If your looking for a windows replacement this is not it. Linux works completely different to winodws and as such you must spend more then 3 minutes learning how to use it".
Well, my Is Ubuntu for You? thread (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=63315) used to be a sticky in Absolute Beginner. Now it's linked to within a sticky there.

And, of course, people often link to Linux is NOT Windows (http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm) (which I don't agree with 100%, but it makes some really good points).

I think sometimes people just like to complain and not do anything constructive to make Ubuntu better.

3rdalbum
October 29th, 2006, 10:17 AM
From the Computer Stupidities website:


I am head of tech support for a small ISP in northeast Georgia. One day a man called Internet Tech Support wanting us to step him through the process of fixing his joystick. One of our techs told him that we could not fix his joystick problem. The man got irate and wanted to talk to the manager, me. I told him the same thing. He ended the conversation by saying that we as an ISP would never make in the computer repair business with that kind of attitude.

Hey. If you hate the installation procedure for the Nvidia driver, then don't complain to us! Complain to Nvidia, who actually wrote the driver and created the installer.

mrgnash
October 29th, 2006, 10:18 AM
And yeah, I know, Linux is sooo much more stable, complex and faster... but if it's not friendly on the end-user level, it simply won't be more than a pet os of geeks. I can't imagine how I must not forget the console in 2006 when I want to install/configure something.

Comments like this always make me laugh. It's amazing how many people overlook the fact that the console offers significant advantages, and there are plenty of good reasons to still be using it 'in 2006.'

The rest isn't really worth responding to; heard it all before.

JayTee
October 29th, 2006, 06:18 PM
I'm not here to whine. I love Linux and especially Ubuntu. I'm just depressed because I bought a new 19" widescreen and can't get the resolution working right. I've posted a thread and no answers yet but I'll be patient and wait. I'm using Dapper 6.06, XGL with Beryl on a GeForce 6200 and I've scoured the postings and tried a gazillion things to get it working but when running it in Beryl it clips the right side and bottom of the screen and when using Metacity it shows the resolution but the bottom panel is dark and the custom side panel I added is dark too. I'm still too much of a noob at this to be able to figure out whether the problem is in XGL or the NVidia driver. I just hope the release version of the NVidia drivers or the next update to Beryl will fix this problem. Hate running this thing in 1024x768 almost as much as I hate running Vista RC1 in 1440x900. I much prefer Ubuntu to Vista.

Abstract
October 29th, 2006, 07:13 PM
Linux was never intended and will NEVER be even close to being used as much as windows on average desktop pc's. Not that windows is better, because it's not, but because of the minimum knowledge necessary.

Dealing with linux will NEVER be as easy as more popular OS's, but that doesn't mean its worse. I personally enjoy linux A LOT, and am very glad I made the switch. I know though that linux will never be as popular as it should be, but I don't really care, everyone doesn't have to use what's best (for me). Less than one percent of people use linux and yet it's completely amazing.
I believe Ubuntu is here to change that. Is it not?

Reshin
October 29th, 2006, 09:41 PM
I believe Ubuntu is here to change that. Is it not?

Yes, it is. It's indeed making better and better (and worse on some parts) all the time, but you really can't say it's fully ready yet. Some parts are well improved, but what I've read from here, some essential parts (ie. wireless) keep breaking more and more with every upgrade.

All I'm trying to say is that it's way too early.

aysiu
October 29th, 2006, 11:31 PM
I've moved all of the Nvidia-related posts to a new thread (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=1685123) so they can get the proper support.

ForumMember#39478585
October 30th, 2006, 04:57 AM
I think the entire Ubuntu and linux community needs to wake up. You guys need to realize that 99% of computer users are not techies. They do not want to use a shell to do stuff, they don't want to open the computer to put a new hd in....

This is why Windows has been so successful. I think the Ubuntu developers need to make ubuntu a "new" kind of linux. Take a lesson from Microsoft. Integrate the gui and the kernel, make the organization of the hd something like windows (no more /bin or /mount or crap like that)... make new gui that is unique and beautiful like mac os x.

In a way... be like windows, but better, free, and open source.....

Actually, I would pay for ubuntu if it was like windows but better....



Anyway, I just had to get that off my chest.

ForumMember#39478585
October 30th, 2006, 05:11 AM
Also, do something about the media issue! I know there are some issues with this, licensing or whatever, but that's another reason to make ubuntu into a commercial (but open source) app.

aktiwers
October 30th, 2006, 05:15 AM
I dont think Ubuntu is for you.
But you should have a look at ReactOS.

www.ReactOS.org (http://www.ReactOS.com)

well the site is down..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ReactOS

TheMono
October 30th, 2006, 05:15 AM
"Take a lesson from Microsoft."

If you want it to be like Windows, why don't you use Windows? I'm not quite sure that you have a problem here... You have something you want... It exists... But you'd rather use something else that was just like it?

If Windows is right for you, use it.

WiseElben
October 30th, 2006, 05:18 AM
Your suggestion would turn Ubuntu into a non-linux-based OS. All that /mount and /bin "crap," as you call it, is the way Linux was made (or maybe Unix, but I wouldn't know). If we made Ubuntu like Windows or Mac, then it is no longer the Ubuntu we all know and love.

Customizing Gnome or KDE into a Mac-like or Windows-like desktop is very possible. Check out Gdesklets and KDE's SuperKaramba.

MetalMusicAddict
October 30th, 2006, 05:20 AM
This is bait. Dont take it. The OP knows nothing about how Ubuntu or GNU/Linux works.

WiseElben
October 30th, 2006, 05:21 AM
Also, do something about the media issue! I know there are some issues with this, licensing or whatever, but that's another reason to make ubuntu into a commercial (but open source) app.

The media issue is very easy to fix. You can use Automatix to get all the codecs you need. If you're refering to the lack support from vendors like ATI and all those freaking printers (I wish I have an HP), then yes, we do need more. But that is not up to Ubuntu, but to those vendors.

_lynX
October 30th, 2006, 05:23 AM
I have a desktop with Windows. I have a MacBook with Mac OS X. I have a desktop with Ubuntu.

If I wanted an operating system exactly like Windows or an operating system exactly like Mac OS X, I wouldn't have this desktop with Ubuntu on it. The point of having Ubuntu as an alternative is NOT to "stick it to the man," or whatnot, it's to be a viable alternative that opens up a new world of computing. If you want Windows or MacOSX, go with Windows or MacOSX.

I'm not saying that you are not allowed to use Linux, simply that if you are looking for a free alternative to Windows that is exactly like Windows in almost every respect, then this is not the place for you, as the goal of Linux is not to simply become a free Windows.

Coelocanth
October 30th, 2006, 05:23 AM
This seems rather troll-like, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt:


I think the entire Ubuntu and linux community needs to wake up. You guys need to realize that 99% of computer users are not techies. They do not want to use a shell to do stuff, they don't want to open the computer to put a new hd in....

Putting in a HD is something many Windows users do, and it is in no way required to do so to run Linux or Ubuntu. Linux is not Windows and does not work the same way. It may not be for everyone, but you certainly don't need to be a techie to run Ubuntu (I'm certainly not, and I have few problems with it).


This is why Windows has been so successful. I think the Ubuntu developers need to make ubuntu a "new" kind of linux. Take a lesson from Microsoft. Integrate the gui and the kernel, make the organization of the hd something like windows (no more /bin or /mount or crap like that)... make new gui that is unique and beautiful like mac os x.

I suggest doing a little research on Linux. /bin and /mount and 'crap like that' are fundamental aspects of the Linux system. Changing it would basically be designing a new OS. There are several choices of GUI. Choose whatever you like best.


In a way... be like windows, but better, free, and open source.....

Actually, I would pay for ubuntu if it was like windows but better....



Anyway, I just had to get that off my chest.

Think of it this way: if you'd never used a computer in your life before, do you think Windows would be easy? It wouldn't. Everything has a learning curve. The biggest problem with Linux is former Windows users switching over and becoming frustrated because it isn't Windows. I know, because I was one of those former Windows users. You have to learn the new system. Simple as that.

23meg
October 30th, 2006, 05:26 AM
This is bait. Dont take it. The OP knows nothing about how Ubuntu or GNU/Linux works.Agreed. Just stop posting. If the OP would like to get informed about what they're talking about, we'll help them.

esaym
October 30th, 2006, 05:27 AM
Wow another one of these threads???? I like ubuntu as it is. And regardless of what you think, this is the easiest linux distro I have ever used.

aktiwers
October 30th, 2006, 05:29 AM
Also, windows uses a shell as well. Its called explorer.exe and crashes often, does that ring any bells?

ForumMember#39478585
October 30th, 2006, 05:30 AM
This is bait. Dont take it. The OP knows nothing about how Ubuntu or GNU/Linux works.

You're right, I don't. But I know it takes about three times as long to boot linus.

I know I don't like doing a lot of shell crap to edit the os stuff, and install/uninstall apps.

I know the fact that you have to do something extra just to be able to play mp3's sucks.

I know that there are no very good apps (like photoshop) for linux because there are not enough users using linux, and there are not a lot of users using linux because of the issues above (among others).

SunnyM
October 30th, 2006, 05:31 AM
make new gui that is unique and beautiful like mac os x.

This is the part that really got me, as I love the gui. When I post in "show your desktop" threads on other sites, people beg me to tell them what I'm using. Gnome is wonderfully customizable and extremely beautiful, and I wouldn't change to osx or windoze for the world. Not to mention that if I ever went crazy and wanted to switch, it's ridiculosly simple to make it look exactly like either of them following tutorials that are readily available online.

ForumMember#39478585
October 30th, 2006, 05:31 AM
Also, windows uses a shell as well. Its called explorer.exe and crashes often, does that ring any bells?

I meant the bash shell... where you type stuff in... you know, the thing that 99% of users would have no idea to use....the thing that would waste a lot of people's time....

skydivingbiker
October 30th, 2006, 05:31 AM
Its an open source code... go for it!

99% of computer users are not techies <-- thats why people use AOL too.

I dont think Ubuntu is all about being user friendly to the not so computer savy.

If operating systems were clay, Ubuntu is more of a lump you can create a masterpiece out of. Windows is more like a mold. That same mold works for millions of people.. and thats fine.... AOL works for some people.. and thats fine..

but some of us would rather be different, even if it isnt the easiest thing to do. It forces you to learn and forget all the pre-defined notions we believe computers have to be.

ForumMember#39478585
October 30th, 2006, 05:34 AM
Wow another one of these threads???? I like ubuntu as it is. And regardless of what you think, this is the easiest linux distro I have ever used.

I agree with you there!! Ubuntu is a HUGE step up for linux. I'm just saying I think the linux community and linux itself needs to change...

:)

SunnyM
October 30th, 2006, 05:34 AM
thats why people use AOL too

*shudders*


I also wanted to add that once you've gotten things set, which people on this site make very easy to do by pretty much holding your hand through it, you can go weeks without touching terminal if you want. It's really just a matter of getting to that point.

_lynX
October 30th, 2006, 05:36 AM
But I know it takes about three times as long to boot linus.

Really? It takes me 18-25 seconds to boot, whereas Windows used to take me nearly a minute.


I know I don't like doing a lot of shell crap to edit the os stuff, and install/uninstall apps.

Have you ever looked at the Applications or System menu? Apparently not.


I know the fact that you have to do something extra just to be able to play mp3's sucks.

Again, this has nothing to do with Ubuntu. Copyright laws suck, I agree.


I know that there are no very good apps (like photoshop) for linux because there are not enough users using linux, and there are not a lot of users using linux because of the issues above (among others).

Photoshop works for Linux. I don't know what you're talking about.

Now you're just to the point of flaming the actual OS. It has plenty of users.

TheMono
October 30th, 2006, 05:36 AM
I see some things I'd like changed in Ubuntu too. Though the last thing I want is for them to go in the direction of emulating Windows. Given the choice between them, I'm quite happy. It's obviously not what you want, though, so you may well be better off with XP.

Sef
October 30th, 2006, 05:37 AM
1. I moved this thread to the backyard since it is not helpful to absolute beginners nor is the poster asking a question.

2. This thread is being locked since the poster is seeming more and more troll like.

Tux Aubrey
October 30th, 2006, 05:37 AM
Sorry, but I was with Windows from before 3.1 and to characterise it as if there is no learning curve is ridiculous. Most people don't use most Windows features and have an OEM version preloaded with all the right settings. If they are lucky, after a year it slows down with a badly fragmented harddive and they send it in for $ervice. If they are not lucky they get hit by a virus or their browser gets taken over by malware and they take it to a "repairer" or a friend who can get it working again. I have cleaned up enough machines to know that not everyone out there is cruising along without major problems with Windows.

My eighteen year old is not a techie and last night he installed edgy from scratch and had all codecs and devices working quicker than I have ever installed XP and Office (plus security, of course). Networking worked "out-of-the-box" (not WiFi) and he got straight onto these forums to research music sharing. Not bad for a kid who grew up with Windows pre-installed and had only ever installed games before. He nutted out the file system by the end of his first session.

In other words, its not that hard.

Yes there are issues and its not for everyone; clearly.

If you want a free version of Windows, pirate it or get your mother to buy it for you.

zgornel
October 30th, 2006, 07:18 PM
We can always make you use slackware. I've used it for 2 years and it's pretty neat and advanced linux user friendly :D

EdThaSlayer
October 30th, 2006, 07:24 PM
I like the slogan...and i agree with aysiu that sometimes people misunderstand what the creators really mean. But that happens with every slogan, still, for human beings it probably means kindness! All of us on this forum are kind right?

sorin7486
October 30th, 2006, 09:29 PM
:)...

each time a new release aproaches this kind of threads pop up...

i just want to say this: linux made giant steps towards becoming a desktop for everybody in the las few years... if you think ubuntu is hard today think how it was 7 years ago when I tried out my first distro.. I know it's frustrating for windows users to be told "it's easy" and then to find out that nothing comes "for free"... my point is: if you feel linux isn't for you today wait a few releases ... keep an eye on it but don't throw it away just because you had a bad experience... and be patient... you won't learn it over night... it took me a few months to give up windows completely and I already had quite a bit of experience with linux at that point...

Brunellus
October 30th, 2006, 09:37 PM
:)...

each time a new release aproaches this kind of threads pop up...

i just want to say this: linux made giant steps towards becoming a desktop for everybody in the las few years... if you think ubuntu is hard today think how it was 7 years ago when I tried out my first distro.. I know it's frustrating for windows users to be told "it's easy" and then to find out that nothing comes "for free"... my point is: if you feel linux isn't for you today wait a few releases ... keep an eye on it but don't throw it away just because you had a bad experience... and be patient... you won't learn it over night... it took me a few months to give up windows completely and I already had quite a bit of experience with linux at that point...
Posts like this miss what I feel is the real point.

Linux will NEVER be ready enough for Windows users. They define "readiness" narrowly to mean "exactly like my current set-up, running the same software in exactly the same way...just without malware. And free of charge."

aysiu
October 30th, 2006, 09:49 PM
Linux will NEVER be ready enough for Windows users. They define "readiness" narrowly to mean "exactly like my current set-up, running the same software in exactly the same way...just without malware. And free of charge." Or, as I like to put it, Windows without problems.

Every OS has its share of problems, and only one OS is Windows.

sorin7486
October 30th, 2006, 10:00 PM
Every OS has its share of problems, and only one OS is Windows.
i think that's the nicest way anybody has ever said that

fatneck
November 1st, 2006, 05:11 PM
Hi all, apologies for the length of this post:

I used instlux on an old Dell Latitude P3 600 w/256 laptop with no cd-rom and no real battery and no real life as XP was far too slow on there. Was amazed when instlux just worked and installed Ubuntu on it brilliantly. Faffed around for a while getting mp3, video codecs etc working and finally had turned an obsolete pile of junk into a working computer. The problem arose when I put a PCMCIA wireless card in and it just wouldn't work. It would see the wireless network but just couldn't get it to connect (WEP encryption). Anyway, this laptop was only a test run - I wanted Ubuntu on my main laptop, a HP Compaq nx6125 with built in wireless.

In my other life I'm a network admin in a Windows environment, so although a total linux noob I have some idea what I'm doing when it comes to general computer issues. I'm fed up with Windows secretly doing this and that, with bloatware programs sneaking into the system tray (hello Adobe, QT) and the spyware, AV and all the usual yada yada associated with Windoze. As I occasionally use SQL Analyser on the laptop I decided a dual boot with XP would be the best way to go. So off I went...

1. Ubuntu (Dapper Drake) CD failed to partition the 60GB drive (no partitions on it as it came out the factory). Nevermind, back into XP and shrunk Windows back into a 40Gb partition leaving about 20Gb for linux.

2. Installed fine, although took ages. Have since read about a noapic command to speed things up.

3. Very very slow desktop. Looks like its running with no graphics drivers (ATI X300). Downloaded the ATI propietry linux driver set, no idea how to run it. It would start to run and then just stop and I'd be back at the desktop. Many times I would click on an icon (say Firefox from the panel bar) and the little hourglass thing would run and then nothing - just stop.

4. CPU 100% - another issue that just didn't seem to want to fix itself. Have trawled through these forums trying to get them both sorted out to no avail.

So I hadn't even got the laptop into a workable state to try and tackle the main forseeable problem of the wireless connection. And I couldn't fix these issues despite some seemingly well written answers on the forums.

So now I have pclinuxos running and it seems to be ok, although itís nowhere near as slick as ubuntu, and that is very disappointing. I guess the point is, I don't think desktop linux is anywhere near competing with windows as although a fresh install of XP might not have all the drivers required for the laptop it wouldn't take very long to get it working. Maybe windows users aren't what the linux community wants, but I dunno - I'm really annoyed as I've spent a long time trying to make this work and I really wanted it to work ! :(

Incidentally, I did have the old laptop HDD in the new laptop for a bit with only ubuntu on it - is there anyway I can get ubuntu back on that one with instlux from USB or something like that.

Cheers
fatneck

lazyart
November 1st, 2006, 05:20 PM
How sad... your first post isn't one to ask of assistance, but is instead to give a laundry list of issues and reasons why you are giving up.

Sorry we couldnt be of help... but you never asked.

raqball
November 1st, 2006, 05:26 PM
Searching the forums is a good start but why not post specific questions to your problems. I have always found most here to be very helpful and eager to assist. If you want to give up then that is your choice but I think if your problems were resolved you'd be loving you some Ubuntu.

raqball
November 1st, 2006, 05:32 PM
Ok I will start here with a few issues you are having but feel free to post other issues as stand alone posts.

Are you using the live CD to install? On and old PC that might not be the best option. Try downloading and use the alternate cd. I think you will find it to work better..

PriceChild
November 1st, 2006, 05:32 PM
Sorry that you feel ubuntu isn't for you.

If you can be swayed... here is one solution that i can quicky give you...
Very very slow desktop. Looks like its running with no graphics drivers (ATI X300). Downloaded the ATI propietry linux driver set, no idea how to run it. It would start to run and then just stop and I'd be back at the desktop. Many times I would click on an icon (say Firefox from the panel bar) and the little hourglass thing would run and then nothing - just stop.http://doc.gwos.org/index.php/Install_ATI_drive

However we'd need more information from you to help fix most of the other issues.

raqball
November 1st, 2006, 05:33 PM
HAve you tried configuring X?

missmoondog
November 1st, 2006, 05:38 PM
yeah, even though the frustration level can get quite high, ask and you shall receive around here. ubuntu shouldn't run to bad on that machine. i've had ubuntu/kubuntu/xubuntu all on 2 hp systems with 600+mhz cpu's in them, that ran dapper just fine. i have learned enough with the MAJOR help here, in the one year or so that i've been playing with linux (ubuntu flavor mostly) that i now have linux on all 7 machines in the house! unfortunately, i have since moved to zenwalk 3.0 (http://users.zenwalk.org/) just for the fact that even with 7 machines, the fastest is only a 2.1ghz (slow by todays standards) and zenwalk simply blows and ubuntu derivative away, speed wise, default installed "extra" packages and everything else!

podunk
November 1st, 2006, 06:00 PM
I don't really think Linux is in competition with anyone. If it were there are several ways to "compete".

In 1995 I decided to start my business. I had 2 choices. Choice one was to spend a ton of money and try to go head to head with my competitor's. Choice 2 was to take some time to examine my market, find a niche that wasn't really being addressed and go from there.

I chose option 2. I don't have the market share the big boys have - but I make a good living and have a lot of fun doing it. :) I think Linux chose method 2 also.

One of your major problems here is ATI, in their quest for volume they've made the decision to neglect the niche markets completely. Every ATI card on the market has "Microsoft Windows Version ???/???/???" as part of it's system requirements.

There are work arounds - and you've already found one Linux solution in another distribution which likely installs a different set of default drivers or implements them differently than Ubuntu.

I'm thinking back to my first computer experience. It was a CNC controller for a machine. I spent 2 weeks at the manufactures school. I bought several books. It took many months to get comfortable and productive. I made some *very* expensive mistakes along the way.

When I got my first PC, realistically it took 3 versions of MS DOS before I got to the point that I was really proficient in the OS, and shortly after I bought DOS 6.22 (which was a repair for the mistakes made in 6.0) they dropped DOS for Windows. :-)

It took me 2 months to get a good stable set up in Ubuntu. I still get browned off from time to time at the documentation (and by golly I'm going to fix that problem myself!) but I don't regret for a second the time I invested to get to this point.

I now have a very stable, very fast and highly productive computer network. I get far more work done in less time than before now - which gives me a lot more time to have fun. :-)

If you've got a Linux distribution that works with your hardware I'd encourage you to spend the time it takes to learn the new OS.

fatneck
November 1st, 2006, 06:24 PM
Ok, I feel like I've been gently scolded...!!!

Thanks people - I'll give it another go as this pclinuxos just isn't good enough. I'll install again tomorrow and then I'll re-post with some specific questions.

BTW the link to the ATI help page has no text on it :-)

Back from giving up and back into Ubuntu...! Looked at that zen malarky but looks far too complicated already.

Cheers

jkvv_1973
November 1st, 2006, 06:36 PM
the windows architecture as you already know is on a downtrend...you see major companies making their electronics linux based...to cut it short...youll be back;)

podunk
November 1st, 2006, 06:51 PM
2 very gentle suggestions.

Don't start with the latest and greatest of everything at the start. I'm not going to upgrade to Edgy until I know more for instance, I'll stick with Dapper and Long Term Support. It's very stable and has commitment from Ubuntu for bug and security fixes for 3 years.

HP provides more Linux support than most. Why don't you drop tech support an email and ask them about Linux drivers for your product.

sloggerkhan
November 1st, 2006, 06:59 PM
when it came to installing ati driver, I'm guessing you dled from ati website ? Did you try to install them without sudo?

Also, my experience is the fglrx from the default repos is more compatable than the latest installer.

Anyhow, there are A LOT of threads on ATI cards.

lazyart
November 1st, 2006, 06:59 PM
Mistake in the link... add an "r": http://doc.gwos.org/index.php/Install_ATI_driver

You now qualify for DejaVunbutu. :)

aysiu
November 1st, 2006, 08:02 PM
I've added this thread to the pile (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=219243) and moved it to the Cafe.

If you have a support question, ask a question. Otherwise, I'm considering this discussion (and one that's already taken place many times in almost this exact same form).

xpod
November 1st, 2006, 08:21 PM
Im sorry to hear your woes m8 but as has already been mentioned mabey if you had put aside your years of computer(win) experience,swallowed your pride possibly and started a few threads with your individual problems then you`d probably have been up and running by now..;)

There`s no shame in having to ask for help m8...wether you`ve used computers for only a few months like myself,OR even if you`ve been hammering away at them for years like you have..

Close them windows and open your mind;)
Good luck

mips
November 1st, 2006, 09:30 PM
Try something lighter like Fluxbox for a desktop to start of with, will feel like it flies.

garethc
November 3rd, 2006, 07:00 AM
Well,

After trying for 4 days to get access to proper screen resolutions on my Inspiron 6400 (GMA 950), I deleted my Linux partition (Ubuntu 6.10) and went back to Windows XP. A disappointment to be sure, but also a necessity.

I posted about 8 times on community forums and unfortunately no-one was able to help me, although I am sure this is because no one had any new ideas for me - I had exhausted the approaches listed in every blog, guide and thread I could find. I cannot wait until Ubuntu has really solid hardware support - then it will be a fantastic alternative to Vista's oppressiveness (high hardware requirements, unreasonable expense and DRM overloading)!

I sincerely hope that by the time Microsoft decides to stop supporting Windows XP, Linux will have matured into a truly alternative desktop operating system. I think Linux is superior to Windows XP (and Vista) in many ways, but is a victim of hardware manufacturers being tied to Windows products - spending time perfecting their drivers for Windows XP (the dominant op. system) rather than also dedicating time to open-source driver development.

I'll be keeping a close eye on Ubuntu's development and will definitely try the next version!

...acid
November 3rd, 2006, 07:04 AM
I'm hoping I won't have to do the same. ubuntu is great thus far.

aysiu
November 3rd, 2006, 07:06 AM
I'll be keeping a close eye on Ubuntu's development and will definitely try the next version! How about just making your next laptop a System 76? (http://www.system76.com)

I guarantee you won't have to fiddle with screen resolution settings.

If anyone wants to help garethc, the thread in question is here. (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=289640)

H.E. Pennypacker
November 3rd, 2006, 07:08 AM
It is unbelievable so many people are willing to provide uneducated comments about Linux when most of these people have only tried one or two distributions, and not only that, don't make a real comparison between Linux and Windows. These people never take into account the number of times Susie down the block lost her files because Windows crashed, Bob from work couldn't get something to work, and how grandma wasn't able to do anything because her Windows system froze every thirty seconds.

Why do we never hear about this, and why is Windows not nearly criticised as much as Linux is? The answer lies in psychology and sociology. The most likely answer is that we have a perception of Linux that is different from reality (probably we are to blame for this perception), and Windows not being good enough of an operating system has become much too tolerated to the point that we don't realize its deficiencies as much. Notice how, when our Windows system acts up, we say "The computer is acting up again," but when a Linux system is acting up, it is always "Linux needs to get its act together."

Psychologists and sociologists really need to look into this.

aysiu
November 3rd, 2006, 07:13 AM
I think that's certainly a factor, but I'd say preinstallation accounts for a lot of the lack of complaints for Windows... that, and laptop vendors necessarily making Windows drivers for video cards.

K.Mandla
November 3rd, 2006, 07:18 AM
If it's not friendly on the end-user level, it simply won't be more than a pet os of geeks.
My mom (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=156175)says you're wrong.

bobpur
November 3rd, 2006, 07:58 AM
I apologize for the tone of this post. I don't mean to come acoss this way. But...
This thread seems to show up every once in a while. Oh, not from this individual, but someone else who has a bad time with Ubuntu. It's never the equipment (Isn't there a hardware compatibility listing around here somewhere?)or the person themselves.
In defense of Ubuntu and Linux in general, I have three Ubuntu computers in my house. My two daughters do their school work on them and are happy. If they break something in the OS, I can save their work, troubleshoot the machine, re-install and be up and running again in about an hour. Try that with Windows.
This IS NOT a personal attack on Garethc. This persons post was more courteous than most. His (I assume it's a he) post just brought to mind some of the other nastygrams flaming Ubuntu when, in reality, the person had crappy equipment or was a newbie (I'm not picking on newbies either, I'm one myself.) with no perseverance.
I get frustrated too,but I don't trash the OS.
If you're contemplating a new computer or laptop do the research before you make your purchase.
I've been fooling around with Ubuntu and Linux for about a year now. What I don't know increases exponentially with what I do learn.
Garethc, Good Luck and to the forums in general;Thanks for letting me rant.

garethc
November 3rd, 2006, 08:25 AM
In response to Pennypacker's post, I understand your frustration at my comment, but it is nonetheless my experience. I did give it a try, and a good try, but I just couldn't persevere. Maybe that's my problem, but it would also be a problem of many other users that get freaked out at hacking an OS, right? Not everyone is a born hacker, so I think my comment is a fair one.

Also, you neglected to note the overall positive tone of my post. I maintain that Linux is a great operating system, and the distros just keep getting better and better. My point was simply this: I would love to see Linux gain market share against Windows - it would be a victory for open-source software development and would hopefully bring about some positive changes in the way the software barons regard open-source development.

I tried Breezy a while ago, and Edgy was definitely a better experience. I know that the next release will be an even better experience - it will probably even work on my current laptop (which does feature some very "new" hardware) without any need for hacking. I think that will be a great thing! I know we all dislike newbies and their perceived laziness and lack of perserverance, but we must also acknowledge that many people's lives do not revolve around their computers - these people need easier solutions than Linux currently offers.

I acknowledge that Windows XP, for example, is not perfect. But I haven't had many problems with it at all over the past 5 or so years I've used it, so I don't think it's that bad of an operating system. After all, as a reasoning individual I would not have gone back to Windows XP if it was as bad as you and other forum users think it is. Yes, user experiences vary, and that's exactly my point.

Ultimately, the point is this - we all cannot wait until Microsoft and Apple are dealt a solid blow in their dominance of the OS industry. I think open-source is the future, and so far it seems that the future is Linux :-)

PilotJLR
November 5th, 2006, 09:04 PM
My whole night went for search for commands (tons of dependencies, libraries, and for 90% I had to use the command line... in 2006??)

Anyone who isn't currently exposed to some form of command line is not working with enterprise computing. It's a common misconception from end users that everything new or advanced is a point-and-click deal.

In reality, most devices can be configured easier and faster through a CLI... of course, the drawback is that one must learn the syntax.
With a CLI, problems can be more easily debugged, remote administration is faster and requires less bandwidth, scripts are easily made, and tutorials are more clear and easier to follow.

The GUI tools included in Ubuntu are great learning aids, but to really use the OS to its capacity, you have to learn CLI... it's arduous at first, but it pays off in the end!!

Bigbluecat
November 5th, 2006, 09:40 PM
I'll wade in with an opinion and a caveat.

I have not read all the posts on here so maybe someone has already said what I am about to express.

Linux is ready for the desktop. Without stating the bleeding obvious there are many people here using Linux on Desktops.

I don't, however, think that Linux is ready for mass market. Okauy this is based on a very limited experience so I should say that Ubuntu is not ready for mass market.

Now. Then you get into the very nebulous area of what is mass market. Well. Those are the people that buy windows and Mac. They don't want to touch or learn anything. A PC is a tool to them. And that is perfectly OK. They pay money so that they don't have to know anything.

I chose to learn about Linux and Open Source. I'm investing time in it.

I choose not to invest time in learning plumbing. I pay someone to do it:rolleyes:

Maybe not the best analogy and I'm not going into the reasons why I want to invest time in Linux.

Of course there are other ditros that may be more mass market friendly but I have not tried them and cannot therefore comment.

Mellowdrone
November 5th, 2006, 09:53 PM
Anyone who isn't currently exposed to some form of command line is not working with enterprise computing. It's a common misconception from end users that everything new or advanced is a point-and-click deal.

Then the question obviously becomes "Who is Linux intended for?" as opposed to "Is linux ready for the desktop?" By your statement here, if what you say is ultimately true (and I know from using several distros that it most certainly is), then Linux will never be an operating system for those who can only stand point and click.

Of course, I'm not saying this is right either. I think Linux should be just as equally used as Windows or Mac or any other operating system in the mix, but until the question 'Who is Linux intended for?' becomes solved definitely, then Linux will continue growing without an ultimatum on who it's ultimately growing for.

aysiu
November 5th, 2006, 09:58 PM
Before you go into this whole debate all over again, you may want to read this:
http://www.psychocats.net/essays/linuxdesktopmyth

husseinabbas
November 6th, 2006, 09:44 AM
hello all

I've read alot of articals about "Unix - Linux- open Source" many people said or wrote its freedom, you do can alot of things you can't do on Microsoft windows.

You are free
open source nothing stop you.
easy friendly, in the end do anything you want no one will stop you and leave the MS windows its full of bugs and all of this is a rumor.

I've installed many Linux OS, Redhat, fedora, slackware, Mandriva, Xandros, Suse, Gento, almost most of the Linux operating system

and now I'm using linux and using Microsoft windows

to be honest with you MS windows much better than Linux

with all respect Linux is not friendly not easy no one have the good experince with Linux only the who's linux programmer. linux not for me and not for you.
MS windows much easier
anything u want to install just double click and u don't need to suffer.
any game msn messenger it doesn't take u 1 minute. if u want to install amsn you need to kiss @$$ to get some help to install it, I'm not crying to ask for help also if someone will try to help you with installing a software on linux he/she not expert they no nothing they just act as if they are fine with their linux but believe me they know nothing

I advice you if your not linux professional I meant don't use linux or you will spend your life kissing @$$ to get some help and u have better option. which is MS Windows

why I'm Saying because I'm Stupid, maybe I shouldn't use computer, maybe i should go somewhere gambling and play slots thats better for me

Well after i though that Mr" Linux" will be easir than windows i really i though why not to learn something new and move to linux and learn new things. Man believe me More than 6 months I'm using linux myself and trying to install software. or any application for example

amsn
rar
codec to play movies
I couldn't
I search and read most of the fourms and alot of help i swear no one has post the healthy answer
i got experince with writing only the commands but all commands doesn't work lol thats so stupid and now I'm using linux "Ubuntu" and i will delete it because i have no clue with it, i want to be free i want to be with windows xp. i can listen music, clips, movies, create dvd, cd, msn messenger, yahoo messenge. everything

well I dont hate linux and who create it and I don't belong to microsoft I'm someone like u who wanted to switch to linux and found that linux its not as they said its just a stubborn software restrict you control u instead u control it

Please Admin if you Don't like my message Delete it and if I bothered you go ahead and ban me from your fourm and if someone dare to reply go ahead freedom everywhere

aysiu
November 6th, 2006, 09:58 AM
Please Admin if you Don't like my message Delete it and if I bothered you go ahead and ban me from your fourm and if someone dare to reply go ahead freedom everywhere No reason to delete your message. I've just moved it to a more appropriate place.

Max_Might
November 6th, 2006, 10:07 AM
IMHO Linux is good for everyday use but still not enough ... :( There are still a lot of things to be done in order to become user friendly ... which I`m sute it will be one day :) The linux community is growing everyday :)

xyz
November 6th, 2006, 10:28 AM
Hello husseinabbas,
I respect your opinion but I don't agree. Of course, at first, it is all confusing but, after a few months, I simply can't understand why you can't, for instance, listen to music or watch DVD's.

However, I think that if you can't stop thinking "like Windows", you'll never get it. So I assume!

This debate is really getting old...

bhuot
November 6th, 2006, 07:55 PM
I know there are a million different stories along these lines, but this is the definitive one to follow for Linux to be successful.

http://fedoranews.org/cms/node/1500

Kindred
November 6th, 2006, 08:05 PM
"53% of web servers around the world are using Linux"

Pretty successful by my standards.. not that popularity or usage is really a measure of much. ;)

.t.
November 6th, 2006, 08:24 PM
I think it's more than that...

kuja
November 6th, 2006, 08:39 PM
I'm not sure on the numbers for using Linux, but I doubt it's far off of the number of webservers using apache - which is more like 62%. http://news.netcraft.com/archives/web_server_survey.html

Anyhow, I'd be interested in seeing a global comprehensive survey with hard numbers on os usage on the desktop. I really don't believe that linux is seeing < 2% usage.

bhuot
November 6th, 2006, 08:54 PM
I forgot to mention on the Desktop. Linux is probably the dominant by far force in server now a days. I use servers for my websites, but they are done by someone else and all I care is that they use some sort of UNIX server. My current host uses some version of Linux - probably Redhat as they have cPanel for configurations.

As a web master, I am always looking to make my website more user friendly and accessible and so it helps to see how much of a market share Linux has. You can go by website statistics to a certain degree, but that can be thrown off by being more accessible to a particular platform or who links to you for the given period in which you are measuring.

chickengirl
November 6th, 2006, 09:35 PM
I think the author of that article needs to read this (http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm).

aysiu
November 6th, 2006, 09:36 PM
I've merged this with the other "Linux desktop" thread.


I know there are a million different stories along these lines, but this is the definitive one to follow for Linux to be successful.

http://fedoranews.org/cms/node/1500
Another "Linux is not ready for the desktop" article?

Unsurprisingly, this one says nothing original.

Read this:
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CriticismFAQ

or this:
http://www.psychocats.net/essays/linuxdesktopmyth

chaosgeisterchen
November 6th, 2006, 10:16 PM
I know there are a million different stories along these lines, but this is the definitive one to follow for Linux to be successful.

http://fedoranews.org/cms/node/1500

Wonderful article. I can second his words, the missing unification leads Linux right towards nowhere. We will end up where we started - bound to the geek image we ever had.

I would like to see, for example, Fedora and Ubuntu merged or even more distributions merged to enforce the Linux community to create one standard, an emphasis upon which we start the die-hard conviction.

bhuot
November 7th, 2006, 01:07 AM
Yes, I can relate with Chicken Girl that it is nice to be able to do things the "Linux Way", but I believe Linux can do things the Mac way and the Linux way. I believe that it would be great to get more users freed from Microsoft. For everybody saying the Windows way whenever someone says they want a graphical interface for anything or have any need for something other than a text editor, then I see they have a Windows bias. The graphical way was popularized by the Mac and even UNIX before Windows/DOS did any graphics. To a Mac user, saying you want it to be like Windows means that you don't want the program to work properly. The Mac is a great example of how you can have an easy to use interface and yet still do LaTeX or code a web page by hand or use open source software of almost any kind and have excellent security and reliability. I guess if Ubuntu users really want to be that elitest I will stop trying to maker sure my website works on Ubuntu. I know Linspire users will appreciate my effort to make thing more accessible. I wasn't going to use Flash to design the interface of my website to make it easier for Open Source users to view, but maybe they don't want to ever see a picture or even see anything beyond the command lines. I guess they already know everything and don't care about any others opinions if they think they are so much better than other users and they don't care about the Windows users frustration and bringing open formats to the masses.

chaosgeisterchen
November 7th, 2006, 07:25 AM
What is our target? Shattering the Microsoft monopoly?

If this is right it will be obligate to create a straight force to enforce our target.

PatrickMay16
November 7th, 2006, 07:29 AM
People here are always saying "LINUX IS NOT WINDOWS!!!" when others say that linux is difficult to use. But if this is so, why are so many distributions (ubuntu included!) trying to make themselves easy to use for users who might be migrating from windows/mac?

chaosgeisterchen
November 7th, 2006, 07:41 AM
These people are regarding Linux in a different way.

I find the attitude to say 'Linux is not Windows. Change your habits or go dying' rather rude and it does not fit to a community which wants people to change their main operating system.

aysiu
November 7th, 2006, 07:45 AM
"Easy to use" is not the same as "exactly like Windows."

chaosgeisterchen
November 7th, 2006, 07:49 AM
But I can show understanding for people wanting to shape their ubuntu just after their working habits. It ought to be included in the freedom of usage.

3rdalbum
November 7th, 2006, 11:27 AM
I'm sick of most of the arguments for "Linux isn't ready for the desktop". I've started compiling a document of "If Linux supposedly isn't ready for the desktop, why is Mac OS X?". Here's what I've got so far:

1. Linux doesn't come with all the codecs installed for industry-standard video formats like Windows Media Video!

Neither does OS X; it comes with support for its own proprietry standard, and Linux comes with support for an open standard. Maybe Windows and OS X are the ones which are "not ready for the desktop", as they don't come with support for Vorbis and Theora?

2. Parts of my computer hardware don't work with Linux! It should get better hardware compatibility, like Windows!

OS X doesn't run on ANY part of your computer. Funnily enough, people who want to switch to OS X seem to have no problems with buying a whole new computer (at a premium, too!). And you're so averse to the suggestion that you buy a new wireless card?

3. Most of my existing programs/games don't run on Linux!

None would on OS X. Zero, zip, nada.

4. Nobody except super-nerds will want to use a command-line, even occasionally! That's why people will always use Windows.

Hmm, funny. Windows 3.1 and 95 relied on the command-line, especially for installing software, and yet more people used it than the command-lineless Mac OS. In fact, more people used DOS than used Mac OS.

5. Some programs don't automatically add themselves to the menu!

OS X doesn't even have a menu for programs to add themselves to, and no programs automatically add themselves to the Dock.

6. It takes too much time for me to figure out the new operating system. The interface should be just like Windows, so I don't have to retrain myself.

I'm sure OS X users say the same thing about Windows. At least with Linux, unlike OS X, you can run KDE and install a Windows-lookalike theme. Heck, you could even download a picture of a BSOD and put it in your Cron tab, to give you that special homely feeling.


EDIT: PM me if you have ideas for me to add

frup
November 7th, 2006, 12:10 PM
I think its because linux is too similar that people think its not ready. If it was more different they wouldn't feel the need to compare