Linux Desktop Readiness Thread

[Immortal_one]

Obviously dabble is the correct word everything you mentioned which works on a Mac but doesn't work in Linix does.

There is no one applicaion that fits all, everyone's needs and preferences are different; in the world you live in there would only be one brand. =)

There are tools that help with configuring just about anything that works with Linux; even something as complex as Samba!

I have used MS products since DOS 3.3 and I can tell you there are issues you run into with Windows also. Drivers are not that easy to install on Windows at times there are issues. If you are a beginner your not installing hardware on computer which calls for new drivers anyway.

I respect your choice of Windows, like I said every has their own preferences. Have fun with Vista! =)

[teet]

In my experience, Ubuntu has pretty much "just worked".

As croak77 mentioned, you can't really compare OSX with linux since OSX only has to work on a VERY limited amount of hardware, whereas linux will run on virtually anything that could be considered a computer.

Mac OSX is a perfect example to me of something Ubuntu should be like, albeit open source. Mac OSX "just works." No matter how much you hate macs, you have to admit that it works well. Plug in a device, and it's installed. Hard drives are auto-mounted and put up on the desktop. Put in a CD-ROM or DVD-RW, and it shows up on the desktop. Integrated buring with the shell. System Preferences work with a single type of driver, and never have problems. This is what Ubuntu should be like.

The few devices I have plugged into ubuntu have been auto installed (printer, camera, gamepad). CD's and DVD's show up on my desktop when I put them in. Nautilus can burn files (it's not a very powerful burner, but it's fine for data files when I'm in a hurry). With that said, I will admit that all of this could use some "polish".

I agree with the ALSA/OSS thing (although I've never actually ran into a problem with it), but most users like the choice. I will agree with you to some extent...I think it can really slow down progress when you get 3+ projects going that are essentially doing the same thing. For example, do we really need 5 different GTK music player projects? (Banshee, Listen, Exaile, Rhythmbox, Quod Libet, and a few others I probably forgot).

-teet

[mikesown]

Windows does have it's flaws, I'll be the first to admit that. However, it is generally much easier to install a driver under Windows than it is under linux. On windows, you just open up the device manager, click update driver, then find the location of the .inf. Windows copies the files, and takes care of everything.

On Linux, this varies tremendously. Installing a driver can be as simple as an apt-get install <driver name> or as complicated as editing 3 or 4 config files. None of this is standard.

croak77: I respect your thoughts, but I have to question what konqueror can do that firefox can't. I don't mean to start a flame war/debate over the specifics, but generally speaking, don't they both do web browsing, and do it with approximately the same degree of efficency and usability? While one may have a few extra features, is it really worth maintaining a seperate application for these?

I realize the mentality of the open source mind- "choice is good" as croak77 said. However, it is NOT good from a users standpoint. All it does is create confusion. MS Office is a perfect example. When someone says "I want to type up documents, edit spreadsheets, and create presentations on a windows machine," most people will recommend Microsoft Office(maybe OpenOffice.org, but chances are more towards Office). This created a de facto (proprietary) file standard, which has made it significantly easier for users to communicate. While you could make the argument that it is a proprietary file format, the fact remains that is has been a convienence to users, not a burdon.

Having one choice is not a bad thing. I'm NOT saying that people should be prohibited from creating their own projects. I AM saying that people should really take a moment to consider if their projects differs enough from the next one to be worth any of the developers' times.

Linux can be a more than usable operating system, but the developers need to work together to make it so.

[croak77]

croak77: I respect your thoughts, but I have to question what konqueror can do that firefox can't. I don't mean to start a flame war/debate over the specifics, but generally speaking, don't they both do web browsing, and do it with approximately the same degree of efficency and usability? While one may have a few extra features, is it really worth maintaining a seperate application for these?

I understand where you are coming from but I do think it a good thing that there is choice. As far as konqueror is concerned, I use KDE, it's fits in well, it intergrate with other KDE apps (kget,aggregator) better then firefox does, uses less memory, and all the firefox extensions I use (adblock, allinone tab) are built in.

There is just as much choice on Windows. Why firefox over Internet Explorer? Thunderbird over Outlook. Itunes over WMP?

[skirkpatrick]

I realize the mentality of the open source mind- "choice is good" as croak77 said. However, it is NOT good from a users standpoint. All it does is create confusion. MS Office is a perfect example. When someone says "I want to type up documents, edit spreadsheets, and create presentations on a windows machine," most people will recommend Microsoft Office(maybe OpenOffice.org, but chances are more towards Office). This created a de facto (proprietary) file standard, which has made it significantly easier for users to communicate. While you could make the argument that it is a proprietary file format, the fact remains that is has been a convienence to users, not a burdon.


You must have forgotten about earlier word processors (WordPro, WordPerfect) and spreadsheets (ever heard of Lotus 123?). Microsoft pushing those applications out of business is why Office is the de facto standard, not because of the file format.

[jISh]

Ok. This is not an attack on you, but I really have to say my piece here.

Mac OSX is a perfect example to me of something Ubuntu should be like, albeit open source. Mac OSX "just works." No matter how much you hate macs, you have to admit that it works well. Plug in a device, and it's installed. Hard drives are auto-mounted and put up on the desktop. Put in a CD-ROM or DVD-RW, and it shows up on the desktop. Integrated buring with the shell. System Preferences work with a single type of driver, and never have problems. This is what Ubuntu should be like.

Ubuntu is exactly like that. With a much broader range of hardware support than macs.

As I mentioned before, the problem is the lack of consistancy between packages. I think that developers need to work together to make a single app to fit each category. Having duplicate applications is more than a nusience for the user-- it's a waste of development power. What's the point of having Konquerer and Firefox when all the developers could be focusing on one project? The answer "because we can" is nothing more than an ignorant answer.

Konqueror is the KDE file manager. You don't HAVE to use it as your web browser. Why does Windows come with Internet Explorer, when you can install Firefox? It's become an integrated part of the OS. How often do you type out URLS in your Explorer windows?

Firefox is included because it's what most users will default to using. There's a whole boatload of other browsers you could install, isn't choice a GOOD thing?

The only way I can agree with you on this is that you should be given a choice during the LiveCD install to choose your packages, say an "Advanced Setup" so newbies stay away from it but users with a general idea of what they are doing can choose.

Other than the lack of consistancy between applications, I feel that configuration files are a big problem. Sure, I can go through and edit my X config to add accelerated drivers and my monitors supported resolutions-- but I don't WANT to, and most Windows users don't even know how to edit a configuration file. Ubuntu only gave me the options of 1024x768 when my monitor and graphics card support 1600x1200. I had to edit my X config file to add this resolution. Config files are nothing more than a nusence, and are a perfect example of how non-user-friendly linux is. Developers shouldn't expect that all linux users should have to deal with config files. There need to be well integrated GUIs for configuring each app that are supported by the project and always work.

Config files are a nuiscence? They are a backbone of Linux, you will never achieve total control over your system with GUIs. When you accept to install Ubuntu, you accept the fact there is going to be a learning curve. Ubuntu tries to shorten this curve as much as possible, but it's not finished yet. New versions constantly come out with more and more improvements, but it's going to be a long time before config editing or command-line use becomes second-hand.

Now that I've got experience with Linux, you can give me a config file or few lines to write in the command line over a GUI anyday (except for that bloody iptables firewall!).

Driver inconsistancy is also a big problem, in my mind. There need to be standards for linux-- a keyboard driver standard, a sound card driver standard, a video card driver standard, and so on and so forth. A SINGLE driver type should be used, not multiple drivers like ALSA and OSS. It should be the responsibility of the driver writer to conform to the Operating System requirements, not the responsibility of the operating system developers to accomadate different products. Documentation needs to be written for each type of driver, as with Apple.

In conclusion, Linux is lacking a feeling of unification. This is mostly due to duplicate projects and/or drivers existing to do (almost) the same thing. As I said previously, this is nothing more than a waste of development power. Developers need to stop being arrogant, and decide on a single standard that pleases everyone, for the good of Linux.



Is there a standard for Windows? Mac? No. There are many different pieces of hardware out there, you can't have one "standard" accept them all. Especially between rivalling companies who use completely different chipsets in their products?

Rather, one should embrace the fact that Ubuntu tries to incoporate them all. It provides execellent coverage of hardware already and there are always new drivers coming out.


Your "conclusion" is surmised from random dabbling in Linux?

Developers are arrogant?

This is not anything a corporate monopoly. This is a group of people working together to bring the best experience possible to new and advanced Linux users. They don't have to "rush products into the market to get sales at peak seaons" or have any reason to put their effort into this other than willpower and the rise of FLOSS.

I'm not totally disagreeing on you, from a Windows' user standpoint a couple of your points are quite valid. But developers need support, and feedback from the community, not being accused of arrogance or forcing things upon users. It's easy to fire up Synaptic and remove what you don't like.

[Josh1]

Well you say that for Mac, you just plug in a device and it works? Well for Ubuntu, EVERYTHING I have tried hardware wise has worked perfectly!
And the choice thing, too many choices? For one, I LOVE firefox. I can't part with it. I hate using IE, and other browsers as well (Opera etc).
Sure there may be quite a few app's that do the same thing, but thats good, without choice we would all be clones, and wheres the fun in that ;).

[mikesown]

Ok. This is not an attack on you, but I really have to say my piece here.



Ubuntu is exactly like that. With a much broader range of hardware support than macs.



Konqueror is the KDE file manager. You don't HAVE to use it as your web browser. Why does Windows come with Internet Explorer, when you can install Firefox? It's become an integrated part of the OS. How often do you type out URLS in your Explorer windows?

Firefox is included because it's what most users will default to using. There's a whole boatload of other browsers you could install, isn't choice a GOOD thing?
Once again, let me reiderate that choice is not a good thing if it creates confusion. Having 10 programs to do the same thing is pointless. While an advanced user may be able to differentiate between 'OpenOffice.org' and 'Abiword,' can you really expect a newbie to do so?

The only way I can agree with you on this is that you should be given a choice during the LiveCD install to choose your packages, say an "Advanced Setup" so newbies stay away from it but users with a general idea of what they are doing can choose.



Config files are a nuiscence? They are a backbone of Linux, you will never achieve total control over your system with GUIs. When you accept to install Ubuntu, you accept the fact there is going to be a learning curve. Ubuntu tries to shorten this curve as much as possible, but it's not finished yet. New versions constantly come out with more and more improvements, but it's going to be a long time before config editing or command-line use becomes second-hand.
This is the point I'm trying to make. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the idea of Ubuntu to bring Linux to the common user. If I'm not mistaken the tagline of Ubuntu is "Linux for everybody." My point is that Linux needs to make the transition to having integrated GUIs in place of configuration files. I'm not saying this is easy, but it needs to be done. Do you really expect the average joe windows user to edit config files to get his sound or video card working?


Now that I've got experience with Linux, you can give me a config file or few lines to write in the command line over a GUI anyday (except for that bloody iptables firewall!).
Again, do you really expect the average user to do this? Most windows users don't even know what a config file is, let alone how to edit one. While it may be easy for you to do so, most people don't care, and don't want to learn about config files.


Is there a standard for Windows? Mac? No. There are many different pieces of hardware out there, you can't have one "standard" accept them all. Especially between rivalling companies who use completely different chipsets in their products?

Mac is a perfect example. Apple has set standards. Core Audio is a perfect example of this. When I got my Mackie Mixer with a firewire card(A HIGHLY specialized product), I plugged it in, and all 18 channels of audio showed up within a second or two without me hitting a button. Apple dictates the standard for other companies to follow. I'm not saying Linux has to take this stance, but it needs to have better plug-and-play compatibility.


Rather, one should embrace the fact that Ubuntu tries to incoporate them all. It provides execellent coverage of hardware already and there are always new drivers coming out.

This is not always true. My friend has an old micron computer that runs Windows just fine without any external drivers, but come ubuntu, he can't format his drives because Ubuntu doesn't work with the IDE controller on his motherboard.

Your "conclusion" is surmised from random dabbling in Linux?

Maybe I should define this a bit better. I've used linux for about 2-3 months at a time, so I know what the whole experience is like from start to finish.

Developers are arrogant?

Not all developers are arrogant, but I've talked to a few and asked them "Why do you do this project when xyz does the same thing?" and I've gotten the general response of "Because I wanted to make a new app, because I didn't like xyz." Maybe arrogant is a bit of a strong word, but developers should, instead of making a project to do the same thing, work with the existing developers of the old project to make it better.

This is not anything a corporate monopoly. This is a group of people working together to bring the best experience possible to new and advanced Linux users. They don't have to "rush products into the market to get sales at peak seaons" or have any reason to put their effort into this other than willpower and the rise of FLOSS.

I agree with you here. Don't get me wrong; I apppriciate the time and effort developers put into making applications for Linux. I know it's not easy, and very time consuming. I'm just writing this to express what makes it hard for the average computer user to use Linux.

I'm not totally disagreeing on you, from a Windows' user standpoint a couple of your points are quite valid. But developers need support, and feedback from the community, not being accused of arrogance or forcing things upon users. It's easy to fire up Synaptic and remove what you don't like.
As I said before, arrogance is a strong word that I probably should not have used.

By writing all of this I want to make a point: Ubuntu needs to become more integrated. While it may be easy for an advanced user to go in and edit configuration files, the average user does not want to do so. Nor does the average user want to have to deal with the problems like recompiling a kernel.

The good things about Windows and Mac OSX are that they HIDE the nitty gritty config files from the users. They don't expect that users will go in and edit configuration files. Instead, both provide frontends for everything(e.x. Control Panel and System Preferences). While Ubuntu has similar features, these are not well integrated, again, because Linux was based on configuration files. Linux needs to make a shift to become more user friendly. Ubuntu has gone a long way in this direction, but there is still a lot of ground to cover.

[mstrat]

************************************************** ********
I realize the mentality of the open source mind- "choice is good" as croak77 said. However, it is NOT good from a users standpoint. All it does is create confusion. MS Office is a perfect example. When someone says "I want to type up documents, edit spreadsheets, and create presentations on a windows machine," most people will recommend Microsoft Office(maybe OpenOffice.org, but chances are more towards Office). This created a de facto (proprietary) file standard, which has made it significantly easier for users to communicate. While you could make the argument that it is a proprietary file format, the fact remains that is has been a convienence to users, not a burdon.

************************************************** ********

People only recommend Microsoft Office because they are not aware of OpenOffice or any others. Ever hear of the term Marketing? That is what Microsoft is truly a master of. If you told the average user that they can either pay $200 for Microsoft Office OR they can pay nothing and download OpenOffice and do the same things...which do you think they are going to do??? As a member of the not so rich that I can throw my money away club, I choose the later. I'm sure that there are some features on "office" applications that you may have to use Microsoft, I haven't found one for my purposes...have you???

[No Whammies]

I think going with a completely graphical and "more user friendly' user interface would be a HUGE mistake. Besides making a huge fundamental change to Linux that isn't necessary, some things simply become more complicated with a graphical frontend and can be taken care of with a simple command or at most, a little copy/paste action.

Now, if you were suggesting setting things up so the user could choose which user interface works best for them (GUI, Command Line or anything in-between) that could work well, but it'd probably be more trouble than it's worth to try.

[Shay Stephens]

Depends on what 'crap' means. If 'crap' means not widely supported by popular portable mp3 players, then yes it could be considered 'crap'. But then again it's not Xiph's fault that Creative, Apple and others don't support ogg out of the box.

Samsung does, I have a pocket-size samsung mp3/ogg player that works just fine :-)

You have to support the companies that are doing the right thing :-)

[nalmeth]

Mac OSX is a perfect example to me of something Ubuntu should be like, albeit open source. Mac OSX "just works." No matter how much you hate macs, you have to admit that it works well. Plug in a device, and it's installed. Hard drives are auto-mounted and put up on the desktop. Put in a CD-ROM or DVD-RW, and it shows up on the desktop. Integrated buring with the shell. System Preferences work with a single type of driver, and never have problems. This is what Ubuntu should be like.
Ubuntu doesn't aim to be like Mac. If you are looking for a free-mac or free-windows you'll be disappointed.

What's the point of having Konquerer and Firefox when all the developers could be focusing on one project? The answer "because we can" is nothing more than an ignorant answer.
What default install of Ubuntu includes firefox and konqueror? If you look at the default install of Ubuntu, you have just that, one application for every category.
Asking konqueror developers to give up on konqueror to work on firefox is nothing more than an ignorant question. As stated, konqueror is a file-manager, and web-browser. It's not the same idea as firefox.

Other than the lack of consistancy between applications, I feel that configuration files are a big problem. Sure, I can go through and edit my X config to add accelerated drivers and my monitors supported resolutions-- but I don't WANT to, and most Windows users don't even know how to edit a configuration file. Ubuntu only gave me the options of 1024x768 when my monitor and graphics card support 1600x1200.
When I plugged in my new monitor, I was given the proper resolution automatically. When I plugged in my camera, it was mounted automatically on the desktop, and I could manipulate the photos. When I change a CD/DVD drive, it's automatically configured, including DMA.

I had to edit my X config file to add this resolution. Config files are nothing more than a nusence, and are a perfect example of how non-user-friendly linux is. Developers shouldn't expect that all linux users should have to deal with config files. There need to be well integrated GUIs for configuring each app that are supported by the project and always work.
sudo dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg
I know, but it's what works best. Really, what more do you expect from volunteer developers? Maybe you should get in and start working if you have ideas.

Driver inconsistancy is also a big problem, in my mind. There need to be standards for linux-- a keyboard driver standard, a sound card driver standard, a video card driver standard, and so on and so forth. A SINGLE driver type should be used, not multiple drivers like ALSA and OSS. It should be the responsibility of the driver writer to conform to the Operating System requirements, not the responsibility of the operating system developers to accomadate different products.
That would be a godsend, but no hardware manufacturer's take this stance with GNU/Linux, so until they do, things will continue as they are.
GNU/Linux does things differently. The linux kernel is module based, even though drivers can be wrapper over it.
In conclusion, Linux is lacking a feeling of unification. This is mostly due to duplicate projects and/or drivers existing to do (almost) the same thing.
Though I partially agree, it's because it's developed by a community, not by a single vendor.

As I said previously, this is nothing more than a waste of development power. Developers need to stop being arrogant, and decide on a single standard that pleases everyone, for the good of Linux.
Hmm, quite the demand. Here are way's it's already happening though:
http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/hig/
http://developer.kde.org/documentation/standards/kde/style/basics/

Once again, let me reiderate that choice is not a good thing if it creates confusion. Having 10 programs to do the same thing is pointless. While an advanced user may be able to differentiate between 'OpenOffice.org' and 'Abiword,' can you really expect a newbie to do so?
Yes! A new user won't run into the confusion on a fresh install anyway, unless they've installed Xubuntu, in which case they will have only abiword.

This is the point I'm trying to make. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the idea of Ubuntu to bring Linux to the common user. If I'm not mistaken the tagline of Ubuntu is "Linux for everybody." My point is that Linux needs to make the transition to having integrated GUIs in place of configuration files. I'm not saying this is easy, but it needs to be done. Do you really expect the average joe windows user to edit config files to get his sound or video card working?
No, and I didn't have to either. Luck of the draw I guess.

Mac is a perfect example. Apple has set standards. Core Audio is a perfect example of this. When I got my Mackie Mixer with a firewire card(A HIGHLY specialized product), I plugged it in, and all 18 channels of audio showed up within a second or two without me hitting a button. Apple dictates the standard for other companies to follow. I'm not saying Linux has to take this stance, but it needs to have better plug-and-play compatibility.
Linux can't take this stance. No one listens to us :p

By writing all of this I want to make a point: Ubuntu needs to become more integrated. While it may be easy for an advanced user to go in and edit configuration files, the average user does not want to do so. Nor does the average user want to have to deal with the problems like recompiling a kernel.
I think it is quite integrated actually. The openness of the system makes it easier to fix and audit problems, and makes future GUI development easier for everyone.
Ubuntu is FAR more integrated than most distro's out there.

The good things about Windows and Mac OSX are that they HIDE the nitty gritty config files from the users. They don't expect that users will go in and edit configuration files. Instead, both provide frontends for everything(e.x. Control Panel and System Preferences).
I don't think this is a necessarily good thing, though I agree it would be nice to have the option of the config editor and text editor. Many distro's already do this, even free distro's like Ubuntu. For more extensive GUI editing, you should look into non-free distros like Xandros or Linspire, they may be more what you're looking for, or what you think new users might be looking for.

I will stick with Ubuntu, I think it's doing the right things. For me, GNU/LINUX is more about openness and freedom than pleasing users of other operating systems.

[Minyaliel]

What Linux really needs, is publicity. I know people who had never heard the word "Linux" before I booted up my laptop in the auditorium to take notes in class. I know because they asked me how I'd made my Windows look as pretty as that. *sigh*

[prizrak]

Samsung does, I have a pocket-size samsung mp3/ogg player that works just fine :-)

You have to support the companies that are doing the right thing :-)

Only if they release a product that fits my needs. I and most other people will spend money on something that does what they want first and care about ideology second.

[bobbybobington]

Getting rid of congig files in ubuntu would be a mistake but... Making gui apps that configure them for you, would be a move in the right direction.

For normal users use and solutions to problems need to be obvious. and obvious for normal users mean gui.

I've said it before and ill say it again. Gui for everything needs to be default. The inner workings will always be there for advanced users, and they will have no problem disabling the defaults if they want to.

[jdq997]

I suspect the user installed Kubuntu, which unfortunately does tend to "confuse" with several choices for things like browsers, package managers, etc. His complaints do not really make any sense if he is refering to the standard Ubuntu Gnome install because in that there is only one choice for each type of program.

- Jason

[awakatanka]

Only if they release a product that fits my needs. I and most other people will spend money on something that does what they want first and care about ideology second.Amen to that. I'm not fighting a holy war.

As far as i read OP he needs atleast voice in the messengers and none of the all in one in linux support that. I need voice and cam and none give me this option. The native version are nice but aren't the same as the windows versions. They still missing options that windows versions have.

What i try is to adept and convert my windows people to use a messenger that can do all on both sides. Wengophone can give me voice and cam in linux and windows only need to convert people to it.

[Shay Stephens]

Only if they release a product that fits my needs. I and most other people will spend money on something that does what they want first and care about ideology second.

Well if you want (need?) a product that plays drm'd music, then you are building your own musical jail ;-) I don't envy your quest.

The ideology of not supporting drm leads directly to avoiding the problem of "how in the world do I play it". Without drm encumbered media you just don't face that problem. And that is what I want first and forefmost :-)

So I don't buy drm, I support products and companies that support freedom. Yes, I may sacrifice a few things along the way, but I sacrice less than I would by embracing drm. I value freedom more than I value conveneince.

So I have to rip my own CD's, I have to buy drm-less songs on the internet, but I get to play them anytime and anywhere I like. I like that :-)

One of the cool side effects of this is I have been searching music away from the mainstream record labels that have sold their soul to drm and been looking at those that offer drm-less media. Discovering new music is kind of cool and exciting. And it's win/win, I get what I want and support those who provide it. What's not to love? Oh darn, no Ashley Simpson or Kevin Federline music?!?! Whatever will we do?!?! hehehe

Recent finds for me have been Adrina Thorpe and Stephen Ashbrook as well as rediscovering Colin Hay (of Men at Work fame). Maybe not everyones cup of tea, but the point is there is music out there to enjoy without having to resort to drm...ever.

[prizrak]

Well if you want (need?) a product that plays drm'd music, then you are building your own musical jail ;-) I don't envy your quest.

The ideology of not supporting drm leads directly to avoiding the problem of "how in the world do I play it". Without drm encumbered media you just don't face that problem. And that is what I want first and forefmost :-)

So I don't buy drm, I support products and companies that support freedom. Yes, I may sacrifice a few things along the way, but I sacrice less than I would by embracing drm. I value freedom more than I value conveneince.

So I have to rip my own CD's, I have to buy drm-less songs on the internet, but I get to play them anytime and anywhere I like. I like that :-)

One of the cool side effects of this is I have been searching music away from the mainstream record labels that have sold their soul to drm and been looking at those that offer drm-less media. Discovering new music is kind of cool and exciting. And it's win/win, I get what I want and support those who provide it. What's not to love? Oh darn, no Ashley Simpson or Kevin Federline music?!?! Whatever will we do?!?! hehehe

Recent finds for me have been Adrina Thorpe and Stephen Ashbrook as well as rediscovering Colin Hay (of Men at Work fame). Maybe not everyones cup of tea, but the point is there is music out there to enjoy without having to resort to drm...ever.
I don't remember saying anything about DRM. I use a SanDisk Sansa e270 that does have DRM support but plays my non DRM media just fine. It doesn't support .ogg however. The point I was making is that I wouldn't sacrifice functionality to ideology. The PMD I got was probably the best value for money as it is about the size of the Nano with more functionality than the video iPod. Point here was that while ideology is good and if at all possible I would like to support it if I have to make sacrifices I plain won't do it.

Back on topic, one thing that Ubuntu in particular and Linux in general sux at is tablet functionality. While the drivers are there, there is no good handwriting recognition program (if someone says xstroke I WILL hunt you down and make you use it) or a decent on screen keyboard that XP Tablet uses (can be opened by clicking on a small icon that pops up when you point to a text entry box). There is also no easy way to calibrate the tablet and with nVidia drivers the screen cannot be rotated (well nVidia's fault but still).

[Shay Stephens]

(if someone says xstroke I WILL hunt you down and make you use it)
hahahaha, I feel the same way when people recommend kino for general video editing ;)

[3rdalbum]

I got a feeling of deja vu while reading this thread. I think exactly the same things have been said before.

One problem Linux distros used to have is that they included multiple programs that did the same thing. Ubuntu includes one program for each task; if a new user doesn't understand the difference between Abiword and Openoffice, they will use Openoffice since it's the only one that comes with the system.

But choice is good. On my main computer I use OOo for word processing. On my old computer I have Abiword. Firefox is good, but Konqueror is a "do-it-all" program (it's a file manager, web browser, FTP client, and unarchiver) with great integration into the rest of KDE. Since you're a Mac user, you've probably tried dragging and dropping between KDE programs, so you know what it's like.

GUI frontends for configuration are a MUST. I'm not afraid of the command-line, but sometimes I'd like to use a GUI. Note that there are many frontends available for many programs, but a couple of essential ones should be included with Ubuntu. This is not a new complaint.

I don't like the Linux sound systems, but then the Windows one isn't really anything to write home about (I'm a Mac user, so I know a good sound system when I see one). To be honest though, sound problems tend to occur only with "legacy" programs, and those that are designed by halfwits (Flash 7, anyone?).

The Linux desktop experience, in my opinion, is almost as integrated as it needs to be. If Glipper/Klipper were included by default, and if drag and drop was standardised between all programs, I'd be very happy. The Portland project will hopefully get around to fixing d'n'd, but until then at least I can drag files from Nautilus to K3B :-)

The last thing I want is over-integration like Windows, where it becomes possible for hackers to take control of your whole system by connecting to your office suite. Other than that, Windows only feels as integrated as KDE. Open up an Explorer window and the MS-DOS prompt, look at the title bars, and feel the integration...

[Jiraiya_sama]

you need to work a little harder on linux mr.windows user.

you've still got a learning curve to work on, but those config files won't seem so scary any more after you get used to fiddling around with them.;)

[DoctorMO]

prizrak, you sound like the kind of normal person who would polute the world just so he could drive 200 yards. your lack of forethought is a shame although not suprising.

[Brunellus]

prizrak, you sound like the kind of normal person who would polute the world just so he could drive 200 yards. your lack of forethought is a shame although not suprising.
let's keep this technical, on-topic, and civil please.

[DoctorMO]

Sorry Brunellus, I'll try and keep the topic about the morality and short sightness of technical solutions pragmatic in such a way that it doesn't point to anyone specific.

Sorry prizrak, personal attacks arn't nice.

[prizrak]

Sorry prizrak, personal attacks arn't nice.
No offense taken, I took it as a misjudgement of my character :) While driving 200 yards is generally idiotic there are reasons for it from time to time. Also if you drive a hydrogen car there won't be a whole lot of impact on the environment. My whole point here is that there is a certain balance. If I listen to the radio as much as mp3's I might want a device that has a radio built in. If only devices that do that don't support .ogg then there is no reason for me to get the device. If on the other hand I would like to listen to the radio once in a while but it's pretty low on my list all things being equal I would go for something that will play .ogg's.

Aside from that DRM is something that companies implement and if you happen to like Snoop (which I do) and don't want to infringe on the copyright (pirating sounds way too cool for what it really is) then you have to deal with DRM (also under the DMCA circumventing DRM is illegal, in case I want to pop the CD in my Ubuntu computer and rip it). Even if companies embrace formats such as Vorbis that are patent unencumbent DRM will not go away and will still be used. In case it is impossible to use DRM with Vorbis and other libre formats companies will not move to it as it is obvious that they like DRM very much. When it comes to legal non DRM music it matters very little what format to choose. Also I would like to point out that MP3 is patented not copyrighted and patents have a limited life, in the case of MP3 it should be running out pretty soon unless they changed the laws.

[Shay Stephens]

If I listen to the radio as much as mp3's I might want a device that has a radio built in. If only devices that do that don't support .ogg then there is no reason for me to get the device.
The samsung player I have (YP-C1) has an FM radio ;-) and still plays ogg! Plus voice recorder, 1gb, replacable AA battery, etc.

[DoctorMO]

Aside from that DRM is something that companies implement and if you happen to like Snoop (which I do) and don't want to infringe on the copyright (pirating sounds way too cool for what it really is) then you have to deal with DRM. Even if companies embrace formats such as Vorbis that are patent unencumbent DRM will not go away and will still be used. In case it is impossible to use DRM with Vorbis and other libre formats companies will not move to it as it is obvious that they like DRM very much.

It's really down to the people, these companies wish to hinder and criple their functionality of their devices to such a point as to make it clear that they don't care about the consumer. thus it will fail simply because of the mind set behind DRM does not understand the people it is selling to.

Also I would like to point out that MP3 is patented not copyrighted and patents have a limited life, in the case of MP3 it should be running out pretty soon unless they changed the laws.

The Patent on _parts_ of the mp3 format run out in 2015 or there abouts, and arn't applicable to the EU.

Also under the DMCA circumventing DRM is illegal, in case I want to pop the CD in my Ubuntu computer and rip it.

I'm not a big fan of DMCA, all laws attempt to define a balance between the rights of the indervidual againt the rights of the socity. The DMCA is the inderviduals rights railroading socity; there is no balance, no fair use. the socity might as well take a run and jump.

If I was to craft DMCA2 laws I would go about it like this: 1) Only formats which have open specifications will be protected; 2) Formats will be documented in the required standards body see 4; 3) Formats will be open beond patent law or where no patent applies to the format (which should be technicaly imposible since patents are about processes not results, hay-ho) 4) Documented will also be a set of rules which must be followed in order to comply with the format; 5) failure to comply fully with the format rules will results in breaking the law under DMCA2; 6) Modifying and Redistrobuting software which breaks the format rules results in breaking the law under DMCA2.

Thus have cake and eat. those who want unrealistic restrictions get to craft or have formats crafted which impose the full force of law behind their breaking. those who code get full specs and thus linux can distrobute complient software. o'course the reason we have DMCA in it's current form is that technoledgy companies like to dictate how much money they should be given for no work.

[prizrak]

The samsung player I have (YP-C1) has an FM radio and still plays ogg! Plus voice recorder, 1gb, replacable AA battery, etc.
Radio was just an example, I don't much care for it though for me the storage capacity of your player wouldn't be enough. I'm sure you understand the point I was trying to make though. Another problem is that I already have mp3's and recoding files is pretty pointless as the quality becomes worse.

[prizrak]

It's really down to the people, these companies wish to hinder and criple their functionality of their devices to such a point as to make it clear that they don't care about the consumer. thus it will fail simply because of the mind set behind DRM does not understand the people it is selling to.

Hopefully, people do seem to just take it though. Or the companies will realise that the current scheme isn't working and will come up with less restrictive DRM.
The Patent on _parts_ of the mp3 format run out in 2015 or there abouts, and arn't applicable to the EU.

Thanks for the deadline clarification. US patents are enforceable in the EU and vice versa. It is all part of international IP protection that those countries agreed to.
I'm not a big fan of DMCA, all laws attempt to define a balance between the rights of the indervidual againt the rights of the socity. The DMCA is the inderviduals rights railroading socity; there is no balance, no fair use. the socity might as well take a run and jump.

No consumer is a big fan of the DMCA.

[DoctorMO]

US patents are enforceable in the EU and vice versa. It is all part of international IP protection that those countries agreed to.

Nope, the EU agrees to extend protection for valid patents, software patents arn't valid and if as an american you took me to court (since I'm in the UK) you would be forced to take me to a uk court. the uk court would thow it out because the patent protection only extends to valid patents.

If you think the EU would allow the USA to dictate such a wide sweaping IP protection agreement then you have a very low opinion of those chaps in brussels.

[Brunellus]

OK. This thread has long since given up any pretense of being on-topic. The original poster has abandoned it. We are talking, once again, about:

1) codecs

2) media players

and

3) US/EU IP legislation

Topics which usually have threads of their own.

I'm closing this thread.

[katiad]

I've been using Ubuntu as my main desktop for a year now. (Wow, has it really been that long?!) I still have an XP box for a few tasks (games, photoshop [too lazy to learn gimp], dreamweaver (can't give it up), itunes, money...) but really, 98% of the time, it's just in use as a glorified boom box, and that's just because I'm lazy and it oughta be used for /something/. Everything else I do on Ubuntu.

I won't say that Ubuntu, or Linux, does everything perfect. Frankly, I had few problems with XP - less than I've had with ubuntu. But the reason I use Ubuntu is this: It's free, in every way. It's free, it's good, it's secure, it does most things I want, and it's got CHOICE.

Perhaps you see choice as a bad thing. But I can't live without it. You wonder why multiple programs that do the same thing are needed - but I can't imagine being forced to live with only one application. For example, I'm STILL searching for the perfect email app. For ages I used Outlook Express. Then T-bird. T-bird was near to perfect, except... I have close to a hundred thousand messages archived in a certain way. And T-bird can't handle it without slowing to a halt on both Windows and Ubuntu. I currently use Sylpheed (thank god for it), but it lacks native html/image support, and a few other minor features that I'd appreciate. I'm still hoping for "the perfect one" to come along. It hasn't yet, but I'm sure someday it will. But a lot of people swear by T-bird. Or Evolution. Or Kmail. They all function differently - for a reason. You can't put every single feature in the world into one program. After all, some cancel each other out.

Newbies who would be confused about, say, Open Office vs. Abiword... well, most of the newbies I come across don't /care/. They find one program, and use it, religiously. They never look at any others. Even if they're installed, and in plain sight. They don't go: "oh gosh, they're both word processors! What do I do?" My friend is a perfect example of the "confused newbie". There's loads of stuff on the computer she uses, but she never even looks at it. She doesn't know what most of it is, and so she just flat out ignores it's there. Simple as that. If it doesn't suit her perfectly, she isn't the sort to look for something better. It never even crosses her mind.

An installation like a stock Ubuntu install minimizes this anyway - there aren't many things installed in the first place. One, maybe two apps for each goal. For people like my friend, and any other confused newbies, this is perfect. But even those with loads of stuff installed generally aren't /confused/. They just select the first thing to catch their eye and ignore everything else.

Sorry you had issues with your sound card, resolution. I had resolution problems, too. But I didn't have to edit config files to solve them. A quick search on the forums revealed a brief command that solved everything for me. I have learned to edit config files. But that's because I'm interested in more than your typical newbie - I want to do more than just install Ubuntu on a single partition and use it like one would use OSX or XP. If I wanted to do that, I would be hard pressed except in rare cases to find the need for a lot of config file editing. Frankly, I've had to do some major messing around on Windows to get it to do simple things like installing drivers as well. I cannot count the number of times I've installed my printer drivers in Windows - like... every time I unplug it. Then it's a 40-50 minute job. It worked plug and play in Linux.

I still have issues with sound. The Alsa/oss thing drives me nuts. I'll give you that. Heck, sound in linux kind of drives me nuts. But as I said, not everything is perfect.

But not everything is perfect in Windows, either.

Nor in OSX. I worked as a university help desk tech in a lab containing Win2000, OSX, OS7, and Red Hat Linux on it. I've seen bizarre problems on all four OSes. They all have good points and bad. But isn't it good that you have the choice to choose which one suits you best?

According to your standards about choice, what's the point in even having multiple operating systems? Shouldn't everyone just get together and contribute to The One to make it better?

They all have different aims. Same with smaller programs. Not every media player/office suite/whatever has the same user base and goals in mind. And wouldn't it suck if the only one available was the one that just didn't work FOR YOU?

[cunawarit]

According to your standards about choice, what's the point in even having multiple operating systems? Shouldn't everyone just get together and contribute to The One to make it better?

They all have different aims. Same with smaller programs. Not every media player/office suite/whatever has the same user base and goals in mind. And wouldn't it suck if the only one available was the one that just didn't work FOR YOU?

I agree 100%! I'm new to the whole Linux thing and I am here to stay, I am enjoying it LOTS! Plus I do like the ideals of the Open Source movement.

However, I have been slightly surprised at the level of aggression towards commercial software. My main bugbear is just what you mentioned, all that talk of choice whilst refusing to accept that Windows and Mac OS X are also valid choices that might actually be the best, most economical, solution to someone.

[kerry_s]

It's not that linux is not ready for you, it's your not ready for linux! Linux gives you complete control over everything about your computer setup. Is it linux's fault that there are some unsupported hardware? NO! Can you make a gui to do this and that? Sure, why not learn how things work and pitch in. If you think things just work, you should use windows or mac, they are designed for people like you. There are many of us who are taking the time to learn how a OS works just because we can. For those who just want to jump on the web and not know anything about the tool they use to do it there's windows and mac to make another zombie out of you.

[kerry_s]

Here's a good read-> http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm

[bobbybobington]

It's not that linux is not ready for you, it's your not ready for linux! why not learn how things work and pitch in. If you think things just work, you should use windows or mac, they are designed for people like you.

Hmmm... that kind of thinking wont help fix bug #1 (https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+bug/1).

[Giggity]

Here's a good read-> http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm
Thanks for posting that little link. I'm guilty of a fair amount of bitching on the subject of Linux vs. Windows on this board, and reading through that document really put a few things into perspective!

I'm still a little frustrated about things like VMWare not working perfectly on my Ubuntu box, and DVD's not burning at full speed if I'm doing anything else on the computer (yes, DMA is installed)... but addressing the first problem would be an off-mission tangent for Ubuntu given its FLOSS modus operandi, and the second problem is probably being worked on, but I'll just have to wait since I paid just as much as everyone else did for Ubuntu, and can't expect my problems to be worked out first!

If you're a geek who wants to be introduced to the world of open-source software with it's incredible customization potential, and have the time to learn how, Ubuntu is great for you. Linux is "by geeks, for geeks". However, if you're a businessman who needs the ability to call someone up with a problem and get help immediately without having to pay extra on top of your up-front cost, Windows is probably better for you. If you need to be able to hire someone and expect him/her to know how to use your software without training him, then Windows is right for you, given all the MS classes out there.

I'll add that it's pretty f'ed up, though, that state high schools and colleges provide tax-subsidized training for Microsoft products. It perpetuates Windows/MSO dominance. Add to that the fact that Microsoft is paid $100+ (some directly out of the pockets of Linux/other developers) for every state computer with Windows/MSO installed, and the competition really doesn't have a chance! It's millions of dollars, even at bulk academic rates.

I mean, when one company (MS) is involuntarily paid millions of dollars per year by people who largely don't even end up using their products, while another community (Linux developers) isn't paid by the people who actually do use theirs... guess who's going to dominate! End MS Subsidies!

Now that I've rambled entirely off-topic, I'll be leaving for now... I have to get my fat *** to the gym anyway.

[sgbeamer]

I put Ubuntu on my mom's machine. She's 65 and completely computer illiterate. She does Yahoo mail and plays freecell. The only problems I have had is when one of her friends tries to help her. I can administer her computer remotely via ssh and I end up being the tech support line. It's been a good experiment but she's not ready to fly on her own yet. I have her now using Thunderbird to do her Yahoo mail, Skype to talk to the family, I bought her a USB phone that works with Skype and the 3 min install took 1.5 hours over the phone trying to talk her friend through it. Possibly the Linspire folks have it right. I think Ubuntu and others are now to the point where they are as easy to use as Windows but there's still nobody you can turn to for help in the neighborhood.

[pregoeater]

I would say that windows is a much better os then unbuntu for a new user. but you have to think about why. if we were still using DOS would it be as hard? I miss DOS i love typing in command strings. But microsoft makes is so easy that for most people typing in a simple command is just to confusing for them.
ive been using unbuntu for 2 days. unbuntu does everything i need so im keeping it. i will still need xp for somethings but for the most part im switched over. i will NOT be paying 300.00 for VISTA i can tell you that. I think that Microsft make dumb computer users even dumber.

[Nonno Bassotto]

I agree that sometimes there is a lack of gui to configure this and that. Writing more guis is certainly a way to go. But the fact that in the end you always have a text file is reaaaaally good. Text file are human-readable. Maybe not at first sight, but you can understand something. Registry entries are not human readable.

In windows I had to modify the registry to make IE show the protection area "local computer". I had to, otherwise it wouldn't open my djvu files for security reasons. It was really far from obvious that this was what I needed to do. How to actually do it was even less obvious. I wish I had some text file to modify then.

[mikesown]

Linux is "by geeks, for geeks".
I thought Ubuntu was trying to change this. As I mentioned before, the Ubuntu tagline is "Linux for everybody." Geeks do not constitute the majority of computer users.

I've noticed a lot of people in this thread saying "Well, I just went to the forums and found a quick fix." Well, this really isn't an acceptable solution for the average joe. Most people are not going to want to have to consult a forum every time they install a new device. Ubuntu should have everything working by default. Drivers should be included for all devices from the start. This means ATI and NVidia drivers(assuming that the companies consented to this) should be included on the Ubuntu CD. Everything should work out of the box. There should be no configuration necesary once you hit the "install" button. Ubuntu can really have an edge here, even over windows, since Ubuntu has the ability to add in drivers at a fairly regular interval of a few months.

If drivers can't be included on a CD, there should be an integrated(fully!) program to fetch and (fully) install the drivers including configuration files. This is something that even microsoft has failed to do(with the exception of a barely functional windows update for drivers). Ubuntu could become EASIER to use than linux if things like this are done. Imagine never having to worry about drivers again. Ubuntu could take care of everything for you. Even the proprietary drivers!

Developers in general need to get into the midnset of the user. The user doesn't want to have ANYTHING to do with configuration files nor forums nor any install guide. The user wants everything to just work. Even changing a single line of a configuration file is too much for a user who doesn't know anything about the linux file structure. While it may be easy for us geeks to do so, it is NOT easy for the average joe to do.

The one thing that M$ does right is eliminate the need for the command prompt. I'm not saying that a functional command prompt is a bad thing, but the GUI should be just as functional as the command line, if not more functional. When do you have to open a command prompt or edit a config file in windows? Never. Sure, you may have to go into the device manager to install a driver, but you NEVER have to touch a configuration file or a command prompt to do so.

The same holds true in Mac OSX, except that you have more options with the command line. However, you can do EVERYTHING inthe GUI. Installing a printer, connecting to shares, setting your resolution, changing your mouse click speed, it's all GUI based.

In summary, Linux is lacking when it comes to GUIs and Driver configuration. I'm not saying these are easy problems to address, but Linux has to become more integrated than it is for the average joe user. If Ubuntu is for the geek, it's fine now. It does everything. However, if Ubuntu is for everyone, it has to be based around the GUI. The command line should almost be an afterthought for developers. If Ubuntu becomes integrated, and is able to update drivers automatically without user intervention, I am confident that Ubuntu will trump windows easily.

[SirShaggy]

MIKESOWN "Most people are not going to want to have to consult a forum every time they install a new device."

You are correct, most windows users don/won't do this. Microsoft doesn't give them a chance to. That is why I am here, 3 months now.

I've read through this, Here's my take. I AM brand new to Linux. My first install was in June, around the first. I installed ubuntu 6.06 and was not confused. I in turn put edubuntu on both of my kids computers. Old junkers that can't run windows anymore. One of them is 5 the other is 3. They are brand new users too. Sure they don't type, use office and such. My son does use firefox to get to a kids game website on his own now, he can launch his email to see pictures from Grandma and with help, type a short letter. Anyway, my point is, we all are able to use Ubuntu Linux and love the choice. We do not get confused by what software is available and prefer having the options. I had always used Windows at home, Solaris at work. I tried Linux distro's in the past and was unable to make them work. Just not enough time to devote. Ubuntu required little devotion to get started, and just a little to make things work. The forums have always helped me with a problem and everything I connect just works. My sisters Macbook Pro has had a problem with one of her external hard drives and even her Zen mp3 player at times! What I am saying, nothing is perfect and Windows is far from it too. I crashed XP twice trying to install a video driver and had to do a reinstall. Microsoft gave me permission the first time, the second time, they fought me, hard! I dumped the disk in the trash and moved on. This is where I am now. Ubuntu 6.06/Fedora Core5/Suse 10.1 on my desktop, Ubuntu 6.06 on my old lappie and Windows XP/Ubuntu 6.06 on my new laptop. Windows goes away as soon as Fedora Core 6 is out. I want to try it. See, I love choices, Ubuntu is my home though!
SirShaggy

[izalac]

Mikesown, Ubuntu's tagline is not "Linux for everybody", it's "Linux for human beings". It is not Linux for average Joe. There are distros out there with better hardware support than Ubuntu and easier installation, plus you get all codecs you might need out-of-the-box, like Linspire, Xandros etc.

Ubuntu comes as close to user-friendly level as it is currently possible using fully free software for start. Extending it to fit one's needs is usually a very simple process, and it has awesome documentation and community. These are its main "selling points". It's about humanity, not simplicity.

Ubuntu is however well suited and quite usable for new users, even though it's a step up from beginner's distro label. It is flexible enough for even the more hardcore in Linux community to use it. As a distro, it probably has the broadest range of appeal amongst existing Linux users.

Ubuntu's direction is quite simple. It's not an OS that targets new users. It's not an OS that targets hardcore users. It's an OS primarily for everyone who wants it. It's authors don't presume to know what you want better than yourself. Quite simple in fact. You can try Ubuntu, and use it if you like it and if it works for you, no matter which computer user demographics group you belong to.

[mikesown]

izalac: I think that the definition of Ubuntu you have created is too broad. It's impossible to meet the needs of everyone. And, moreover, what differentiates Ubuntu from Redhat or Mandrake? Nothing, if you say it is made "for everyone who uses it." What determines the direction that the distro will go in? What determines what applications should be included? If Ubuntu has no clear idea about what it is, then how is it supposed to be different? I think Ubuntu should go the route of providing linux for the average joe, but I'm not a developer, so I pretty much have no say in the matter. I can only express my opinion.

SirShaggy: You may have had a good experience with Linux and a bad one with Windows/OSX, but I dobut this is the case for the majority of users(at least for the bad experiences in Windows/OSX). A LOT of things have required tweaking like:
- Editing a configuration file to get audio output working in firefox
- Native graphics driver installs
- Compiling and running Tor
- Getting OO to work(It still doesn't work when launched from the Gnome menu!)

It's things like this that are quite frankly, from a windows point of view, inexcusable. I'm not accusing developers of doing a bad job; I know it's hard to create an OS. I'm just saying that none of those things are a problem in Win32/OSX. Having had these problems, I can't say I would recommend Ubuntu to any of my non tech savvy friends. It's just too darn complicated to operate. My point remains that developers should not expect the user to compile anything, modify any configuration files, or do anything in the command line. Until these things are overcome, Linux will never become usable for the average joe.

[DoctorMO]

It's things like this that are quite frankly, from a windows point of view, inexcusable.

To right! and my good friend mikesown has been fixing all these issues right mikesown? Oh... you haven't? well what are you complaining about? the responsibility is with YOU so stop trying to blame everyone else because your not bothered enough to hire a developer to fix your personal pet pives.

I hate it when people treat volenteers like their some how responsible for gnu/linux; it's just rude. and then to presume to know what everybody wants it's quite arragant.

And don't tell me thats not what you meant either mikesown, I'm quite disapointed in your attitude.

[Koori23]

Not to detract from the current conversation here.. I would like to make one point that may have escaped some new users. In Windows, you have an almost complete lack of command line tools to configure a PC, when you ask for help you are almost forced to say things like "Click here, scroll down here, click OK, then go down till you see X." Linux is the complete opposite, and besides that, the command line is almost the easiest, most fool-proof method to help someone get from point A to point B simply because all of the variables are taken out.

Secondly, Linux is like opening a book that has abosolutely no words in it, just leatherbound covers. You have the control to write what you want into it.. Anything.. You've got a basic structure.. You have so many pages, the pages are only so wide.. But besides that, you're free to roam.

I call that rant growing pains.. Yeah, things aren't perfect.. Maybe you have to research something before you can work with it. To me, that's the beauty of it.. I guess some just find the fact you must get your hands dirty sometimes to be too much of a chore.

[Old Pink]

You can either put in no effort, and get nothing in return; or, put in a little effort and get a whole lot in return.

I'll let you decide with is Windows, and which is Linux. ;)

[mikesown]

To right! and my good friend mikesown has been fixing all these issues right mikesown? Oh... you haven't? well what are you complaining about? the responsibility is with YOU so stop trying to blame everyone else because your not bothered enough to hire a developer to fix your personal pet pives.

I hate it when people treat volenteers like their some how responsible for gnu/linux; it's just rude. and then to presume to know what everybody wants it's quite arragant.

And don't tell me thats not what you meant either mikesown, I'm quite disapointed in your attitude.

You epitomize EXACTLY what the problem is. None of the developers want to tailor their application for their userbase, because, quite frankly, they have no incentive to do so. Whereas a company like microsoft or apple might say "OK, we need to make our apps more user friendly so people will buy them," or "we need to fix these 50 bugs by next month," most developers could care less. I'm not quite sure what the solution to this is, but this is a big problem.

For criticizing how developers don't fix bugs, I get flamed because I'm "blaming developers" for not fixing bugs. I'm writing all this from a standpoint of the average joe user. I'm saying what should be done. You can flame me all you want, and say that I'm being rude to developers by instructing them what to do, but I still hold firm on my point.

All of this stems from OSS to begin with. There is no incentive for interoperability. Who cares if something doesn't work right in Ubuntu? Nobody will fix it, unless they feel it would be beneficial to them. In a corporation, the problem would get fixed simply because it would cause a loss in sales if it wasn't.

Basically, I'm saying that developers should be more aware of these things. I'm not telling developers to fix my problems because they bother me, I'm saying that developers should fix these interoperability issues for the sake of OSS software.

Also, I'm not presuming what "everyone" wants. I'm stating what the average windows user wants. If anyone feels that the average windows user would object to any of my suggestions, feel free to say so.

I'm trying to analyze these problems from a standpoint of a windows user. You can call me biased, or whatever you want, but the fact remains that there are problems that I have heavily elaborated on. The issue as to if developers will fix the problems is another matter entirely. I'm not flaming developers, I'm just analyzing the situation, and giving my opinion as to what needs to be done. I'm not ordering developers around, just offering suggestions for a better linux experience for the average joe user.

I'm aware that it takes time and money to improve software to this level. I'm aware that development is not free. I'm merely offering suggestions for a better Ubuntu experience.

[mikesown]

Not to detract from the current conversation here.. I would like to make one point that may have escaped some new users. In Windows, you have an almost complete lack of command line tools to configure a PC, when you ask for help you are almost forced to say things like "Click here, scroll down here, click OK, then go down till you see X." Linux is the complete opposite, and besides that, the command line is almost the easiest, most fool-proof method to help someone get from point A to point B simply because all of the variables are taken out.
I would argue quite the opposite of what you are saying. Having a GUI makes everything much easier from a beginner's standpoint. In a GUI (usually) most apps are grouped together in one place. Rather than remembering oowriter, oocalc, abiword, gnumeric, vlc, firefox, I can just go to one place to find them all. For one, users are not forced to remember the exact name of an application to launch it. Second of all, a GUI (usually) provides a control panel. This is probably the most important thing a GUI does. Rather than remember 100s of commands to change settings, you can just open up a SINGLE window which has ALL of the settings in it, without remembering a single command. Third of all, a GUI provides an easy way to work with files. Just drag and drop to move. Search for a file, then once you find it, move it to the desktop. It's as easy as point and click. The terminal is very clunky in cases like this, especially when the paths are extremly long.

A GUI provides an integrated experience for the user, with everything in an easy to use place. While a computer enthusiast who has been using linux for 10 years may know the commands to do all of this right off the top of their head, most users don't know them and don't want to know them. Why do you think windows expanded the number of people who used computers? Because it had an easy(relatively speaking) way to do everything. DOS didn't spread nearly as fast, due to users having to read extremly long and heavy manuals(I still have some!) to simply operate the computer. Having a GUI makes the learning curve much easier for a beginner.

Secondly, Linux is like opening a book that has abosolutely no words in it, just leatherbound covers. You have the control to write what you want into it.. Anything.. You've got a basic structure.. You have so many pages, the pages are only so wide.. But besides that, you're free to roam.

Not to argue, but what practical things can you do in Linux that you can't do in windows?

I call that rant growing pains.. Yeah, things aren't perfect.. Maybe you have to research something before you can work with it. To me, that's the beauty of it.. I guess some just find the fact you must get your hands dirty sometimes to be too much of a chore.
Most users don't feel this way. While you may find it fun to hunt down the cause of the problem, most users want everything to work off the bat. Most Windows/OSX users expect things to just work. When's the last time you heard of a Windows user hunting down the cause of why their sound didn't work under IE while it worked in other apps? When's the last time you heard of an OSX user figuring out why flash fonts wouldn't display at all? I've never heard of either. Windows and OSX both provide an integrated experience that doesn't require you to "get your hands dirty." Most users don't want to dig in and recompile the kernel to get sound working. Most users don't want to think about anything. They just want something that works.

[Jiraiya_sama]

from mikesown
- Editing a configuration file to get audio output working in firefox
- Native graphics driver installs
- Compiling and running Tor
- Getting OO to work(It still doesn't work when launched from the Gnome menu!)

problem #1 - audio works in firefox automatically on most installs since it uses alsa or esd. i have never had any problems getting sound to run from it. what you most likely are referring to is sound in flashplayer. this is none of the firefox or ubuntu devs fault. flash is programmed to use oss without giving a choice to use alsa or esd; the problem with this is oss is an ancient sound server that doesn't allow more than one app to access the sound system at a time and as such, you can't hear sound because the standard sound system for gnome is already active (esd). thus it is not the fault of the firefox team or the ubuntu team, but rather the crappy adobe (used to be macromedia) devs.

problem #2 - are you talking about nvidia and ati proprietary driver installs? if so there is nvidia-glx and and xorg-driver-fglrx.

problem #3 - why did you not use the ubuntu packages from the tor site? compiling is the realm of gentoo users and other masochists.


Problem #4 - this is the only seemingly valid problem you've posted. time to file a bug at the launchpad. the devs can't fix it if they don't know its happening/what's causing it.

by the way, what version of ubuntu are you using?

[geekchic9]

Not to argue, but what practical things can you do in Linux that you can't do in windows?



Develop Free Software (free as in freedom). That's awfully hard to do with proprietary software in Windows. When you install the proprietary software, you agree to certain terms that makes the resulting software you develop non-Free. Free Software is immensely practical and also happens to benefit the community at large. Ubuntu embraces that freedom in its philosophy (http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/philosophy).

Mikesown, you seem to want a Windows that happens to be free (as in price.) GNU/Linux is simply not that. It was developed for different reasons, and its users have a different mentality. Some GNU/Linux users, as you have seen, are willing to get their hands dirty. I'm not. I'm not a programmer; I'm an administrative assistant for a non-profit organization. I have made Ubuntu work for me with very little effort and with no editing of configuration files. I can count on my fingers how many times I've had to intentionally open a terminal to type in a command using this distribution. Ubuntu really is easier to use than most GNU/Linux distributions.

Why do I say "GNU/Linux"? In short, it's because I believe in the freedom of ideas and information. I'm a member in good standing of the Free Software Foundation after I read this article (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html), which really opened my eyes to what's going on in the computer industry today, and how it threatens to take away freedom of speech. The article is rather short; let me know what you think of it.

[aysiu]

Well, there are things you can do in Linux you can not do in Windows, and then there are things you can do easily in Linux that you cannot do as easily in Windows.

Can't be done in Windows:

Centralized package management - one-stop shopping for spyware-free, cost-free applications that install with one click and are tightly integrated with the system. No need to open a web browser or buy a CD. The package manager handles it all.

A powerful command-line - If I have a problem, I know I can always diagnose the output by running the command through the terminal. I cannot run every Windows command in MS-DOS to find out what's going wrong. If I get a cryptic command in Windows, I cannot even highlight the text to Google it--I have to retype the text. With Linux, I can install ten or twenty software packages with a single command. I cannot do that in Windows.

License freedom - In Windows I have to purchase a license (or break the law) every time I want to install Windows on another computer. With Ubuntu, I can install it as many times as I want, and I don't have to report back to the mother ship. I don't have to keep track of activation keys or CD-ROMs. If I lose my CD of Ubuntu, I can easily download and burn another one. If I lose my Windows restore CD... I'm screwed.

Can't be done easily in Windows:

Lynx - I know it's random, but I like Lynx, and I can't for the life of me figure out how to install it in Windows. Yes, they make a Windows version, but it's not a simple double-click .exe file. In Ubuntu, however, I just sudo aptitude update && sudo aptitude install lynx and I'm ready to go. That goes for a lot of things, actually. OpenOffice makes a Windows version, but it takes forever to download (it's huge). GIMP has a Windows port, but you also have to install the GTK runtime environment first. A lot of open source applications I happen to like are a bit more complicated in Windows. God knows I've tried to figure out cygwin, to no avail.

Customization - I tried Windowblinds, and I thought it was ugly and didn't like the nagware to upgrade and pay for it. I tried LiteStep, but it took me a while to find a working link to the download, and even after I downloaded it, I couldn't figure out how to get a working theme. I'm not an idiot, but LiteStep was just a bit beyond me. Someone linked me to a hack that allows you to install unverified themes in Windows, and I used that for a while at work, but then I noticed a few applications became unstable because of that. In Ubuntu, I can just go to http://www.gnome-look.org and drag and drop a .tar.gz to the Theme Manager window and I have a new theme. If I want to replace an icon, I just find the icon and replace it. Replacing the Windows Start Menu button is quite a bit trickier.

When I first started using Linux (April 2005), I was coming at everything with a Windows mentality: "I used to do this in Windows. Why doesn't it work this way in Linux?"

Now that I've been using Linux for over a year, it's quite the other way around. I go into my Windows computer at work, and I try to Linux it up as much as possible. I have OpenOffice, Notepad++, GIMP, Windows Grep, Firefox, Thunderbird, and as many keyboard shortcuts as I can get (another thing that's not as easily customizable in Windows).

I get annoyed that in Windows I can't queue my songs in iTunes. I finally found a helper plugin for iTunes that lets me use global keyboard shortcuts to change songs or lower the volume. I even tried to implement a kind of sudo by creating two accounts--a limited user and an administrator. Unfortunately, some things in Windows (like everything in the Control Panel) cannot be run as a different user. Windows Updates appear to be able to use the Run as... command, but the updates don't install correctly unless you're logged in as the administrator.

Does that answer your question?

[cunawarit]

Lynx - I know it's random, but I like Lynx, and I can't for the life of me figure out how to install it in Windows.

It is dead siple, follow these instructions:

http://home.pacific.net.sg/~kennethkwok/lynx/installing.html

You need to create your own batch file, mine looks like:

@ECHO OFF
set home=C:\Lynx
set temp=C:\Lynx\temp
set lynx_cfg=C:\Lynx\lynx.cfg
set user=cuna
set term=vt100
set www_home=http://www.google.com
C:\Lynx\lynx.exe %1%2%3

That's it.... Once you create your own batch file just run that and it'll work.

[aysiu]

What's a batch file? Do I paste those commands in MS-DOS? I'm confused.

[DoctorMO]

.bat files are dos executables that are similar to bash scripts but without the ability to do conditionals, loops and the lack of tools makes them redundent for most jobs.

[aysiu]

So if I just type those commands one by one in DOS, that's the same as excecuting a .bat file?

[dolphinsonar]

Part of the appeal of Ubuntu is that you are participating in something groundbreaking and new that defies the status quo. If you aren't feeling that, its probably not worth the work (which is very little).

Load ubuntu, delete windows, run easyubuntu. DoNE.

[cunawarit]

.bat files are dos executables that are similar to bash scripts but without the ability to do conditionals, loops and the lack of tools makes them redundent for most jobs.

Example of a never ending loop with a conditional:

:1
ECHO HELLO WORLD!!!
IF TRUE==TRUE GOTO 1:

You can do FOR loops too, subroutines, etc... Here is a good tutorial on batch files: http://www.robvanderwoude.com/index.html

[DoctorMO]

cunawarit out of all the things I really wanted to learn... batch files was the last.

I was playing with them when I was 8 on my old 486 DX66 (spiffy for the time) and I find them to be jerky compared to perl, python, bash or awk. great for someone whos not got windows and is getting sick of Lemmings EGA but hardly a tool comparable to linux.

[cunawarit]

I know batch files don't compare to Bash, however, I wanted to point that that your assertion wasn't entirely correct. Yes, batch files are nowhere near as powerful as shell scripts, but they are not as lame as you made them sound.

[mikesown]

Can be bring this discussion back on track? First we're talking about the advantages of Linux/Windows, and now we're talking about what batch files are.

[geekchic9]

mikesown,

Did you read my link?

[Seiti]

Why are there so many ice cream flavors? It would be so simple to have only one flavor.

It's to complicated, and a time wasting, to choose the right flavor, so we all need no more than just one.

If the ice cream makers stopped to create new flavors, the only one flavor ice cream would be perfected!

Wait..
Thinking again, it would be simpler to have only one type of dessert... hmmm.. :)

[argie]

Haha Seiti.

mikesown:
The funny concept of "waste of developer manpower". If I were a developer on an OSS who's not getting paid (I think the vast majority be like this), then I'm not going to work on some other project other than what I like.

It's not like you can say, "Hey Epiphany devs! I've decided Epiphany is redundant. we have firefox! Work on firefox! " or some such.

[DoctorMO]

Thats the funny thing about OSS, nothing is wasted, some things become unused , some things become used again in the future. but nothing is wasted.

[IYY]

You are, of course, right. It doesn't make sense to have both OSS and ALSA. It doesn't make sense to have Gnome and KDE. But... What do you propose we do about it? As long as there are users who wish to keep using this software, and as long as there are developers wishing to develop it, who is to say what they are allowed or not allowed to do? For instance, I think that KDE and QT should be abandoned and GTK and Gnome should be embraced instead. However, another user may think that Gnome should be abandoned!

This is about choice and about Freedom, even if it does cause problems. Even with these problems, GNU/Linux is an excellent OS (better than all others, in my opinion) and there is no need to try and fix them with force.

I suspect that as time goes by, the ``market'' will choose and a winner will be determined by the users themselves.

[mikesown]

You are, of course, right. It doesn't make sense to have both OSS and ALSA. It doesn't make sense to have Gnome and KDE. But... What do you propose we do about it? As long as there are users who wish to keep using this software, and as long as there are developers wishing to develop it, who is to say what they are allowed or not allowed to do? For instance, I think that KDE and QT should be abandoned and GTK and Gnome should be embraced instead. However, another user may think that Gnome should be abandoned!

This is about choice and about Freedom, even if it does cause problems. Even with these problems, GNU/Linux is an excellent OS (better than all others, in my opinion) and there is no need to try and fix them with force.

I suspect that as time goes by, the ``market'' will choose and a winner will be determined by the users themselves.

I'm not quite sure what the best route to fixing this problem would be. I agree that we can't force anyone to work on projects, and we can't force anyone to stop working on projects. The only people who can fix this problem is the developers. KDE and Gnome developers should get together and think about how to merge the two projects together, or incorperate features from one into the other so we wouldn't have duplicate projects. Drivers for OSS should be ported to ALSA so that OSS can be totally abandoned. I guess the key to all of this is communication between developers. If developers can't reach compromises, then there is no solution to this problem. Developers really need to think about the people that are using their software, and need to compromise on these issues for the good of Linux as a desktop OS. Unless developers agree to work together to eliminate duplicate projects, this problem will persist for as long as Linux exists.

[aysiu]

I thought the Gnome and KDE developers are already getting together:
http://www.desktoplinux.com/news/NS7768863113.html

[mikesown]

I thought the Gnome and KDE developers are already getting together:
http://www.desktoplinux.com/news/NS7768863113.html

That article says that the developers are working together towards compatibility, not towards merging the projects together. I am saying that there should be one de facto standard for window managers, not that the two should be "compatible."

[aysiu]

That article says that the developers are working together towards compatibility, not towards merging the projects together. I am saying that there should be one de facto standard for window managers, not that the two should be "compatible."
That's about as likely as McDonald's and Burger King merging. In fact, it's less likely. Conceivably, McDonald's could become so large as to buy out Burger King. Gnome could not "buy out" KDE or vice versa.

I'll tell you not only is it not going to happen, but it would alienate many users. If KDE became Gnome, KDE users would be really upset. If Gnome became KDE, Gnome users would be really upset. Why can't people just use the desktop environment they want?

I don't ask Gouda cheesemakers to merge their project with Jarlsberg cheesemakers. The two are separate, and the best we can hope for is compatibility.

[mikesown]

That's about as likely as McDonald's and Burger King merging. In fact, it's less likely. Conceivably, McDonald's could become so large as to buy out Burger King. Gnome could not "buy out" KDE or vice versa.

I'll tell you not only is it not going to happen, but it would alienate many users. If KDE became Gnome, KDE users would be really upset. If Gnome became KDE, Gnome users would be really upset. Why can't people just use the desktop environment they want?

I don't ask Gouda cheesemakers to merge their project with Jarlsberg cheesemakers. The two are separate, and the best we can hope for is compatibility.

If you want to continue with the analogy, you can say that Burger King is doing relatively poorly compared to McDonalds. McDonalds exists in almost every country, and they have a lot of locations. By comparison, Burger King has far fewer locations and is not doing as well.

In the real world, the market chooses the winner. In the OSS world, both products coexist. This is the problem.

It's hard to say this while keeping the OSS mentality, but there shouldn't be two desktop enviornments. There is NO reason for KDE and Gnome to exist seperately. NO REASON at all. They both do almost exactly the same thing. It is ignorant not to realize this, and childish to become upset if the window manager you use is deemed obsolete.

The developers need to make the switch. They need to disreguard the mentality of defeat by stopping development of their current project. The developers need to realize that they can accomplish much more by working together instead of working on seperate projects with almost the same goals. Is this eliminating freedom of choice? Sure, but it's for the good of the Linux community.

[aysiu]

On the contrary, the market chooses the winner in the OSS world as well, and the market has chosen both KDE and Gnome.

There's actually no reason to merge the two. As with a "real world" merger, you won't get increased productivity and double the employees. You'll get layoffs.

If KDE and Gnome were to merge, you'd probably have the same number of developers and a bunch of other disgruntled developers not working on the project who... guess what... would start yet another desktop environment.

And they do not serve the same purpose any more than salt and pepper do. Yes, salt and pepper are both granular and add flavoring to your food, but they serve different needs. KDE and Gnome have very different philosophies--Gnome favoring simplicity and KDE favoring graphical configurability.

Those two options appeal to two different types of users. It's like saying there should be only one web browser. Who knows? Maybe you think that, but I don't see anything wrong with there being Opera, Firefox, Epiphany, Konqueror, Galeon, Dillo, Lynx, etc.

[Seiti]

In the real world, the market chooses the winner. In the OSS world, both products coexist. This is the problem.

In fact, it is the solution to different types of users, who have different needs.

There is NO reason for KDE and Gnome to exist seperately. NO REASON at all. They both do almost exactly the same thing. It is ignorant not to realize this, and childish to become upset if the window manager you use is deemed obsolete.

Taking this a little bit further, then there's no reason at all to two or more types of OS to coexist. They all serve to the same purpose.

Is this eliminating freedom of choice? Sure, but it's for the good of the Linux community.

If you say that forking a project *can* be a bad move, I understand. But I do not understand how taking away the freedom of choice can be of any good to the OSS comunity. ](*,)

[saintj0n]

Mac lacks the power and sophistication of Linux. Every distro is definitely different and there are some linux distros I will never touch again (Mandriva) but you cant compare the two. A mac is a simple device meant for people who are looking for a turnkey system. Linux is not meant to be an out of the box solution. It would not be customizable that way and that is the whole point. I dont dislike mac, I just find that I have outgrown the need for a machine that does my thinking for me.

[Seine]

And they do not serve the same purpose any more than salt and pepper do. Yes, salt and pepper are both granular and add flavoring to your food, but they serve different needs.

Another superb analogy! ;) (I preferred the cheese one though).

[mikesown]

Mac lacks the power and sophistication of Linux. Every distro is definitely different and there are some linux distros I will never touch again (Mandriva) but you cant compare the two. A mac is a simple device meant for people who are looking for a turnkey system. Linux is not meant to be an out of the box solution. It would not be customizable that way and that is the whole point. I dont dislike mac, I just find that I have outgrown the need for a machine that does my thinking for me.

Maybe I've misunderstood the whole point of Ubuntu. I've spent 7 pages talking about how Ubuntu is for the average user looking for an easy to use free OS. Is this not the goal of Ubuntu? I personally think that the best direction for Ubuntu is to create a "turnkey solution" that any user can easily install and use without so much as a thought of a configuration file.

I know most people on this board are willing, able, and wanting to dig into the nitty gritty stuff in an OS, but this isn't what the average joe wants. I'm NOT saying that Ubuntu should be less configurable/customizable, but I think it should be more appealing from an end user standpoint. If Ubuntu is "for everyone," then shouldn't the average joe feel at home, too?

[aysiu]

I don't think the average joe feels at home in Windows, but he may feel that's his only "choice."

I deal with Windows users every day who spend hours at their computers at work being inefficient, frustrated, and confused by their Windows computers. They do not feel "at home" with Windows. They feel trapped.

And it doesn't matter how "user friendly" Ubuntu becomes. Once people become used to Windows, anything different will feel unfriendly.

... not to mention the fact that Ubuntu doesn't come preinstalled on Dell computers.

[der_joachim]

If you want to continue with the analogy, you can say that Burger King is doing relatively poorly compared to McDonalds. McDonalds exists in almost every country, and they have a lot of locations. By comparison, Burger King has far fewer locations and is not doing as well.

In the real world, the market chooses the winner. In the OSS world, both products coexist. This is the problem.

Although McD is clearly the bigger franchise, most people I know prefer a Whopper over a Big Mac. "The market" does not necessarily reflect its consumers' choice.
Furthermore, McD and BK are coexisting as far as I can see. Sure, there is a lot of competition between them, but they have both a more or less comfortable position in the same market. And in the US, there are literally dozens more fast food chains. If you drive on the interstate, many exits have clusters of fast food chains. They huddle together. They coexist.

an easy to use free OS

How about this: five months ago I bought a new motherboard with processor. I had just installed Dapper (most of which worked out of the box, I might add) on my old rig when the motherboard died. Bummer! I have a dual boot system. I use windows for two things: Guild Wars and Ventrilo. After replacing the motherboard, I switched on my computer. It happily started booting up the Linux kernel, and it needed a whopping 30 seconds to detect every new piece of hardware. Afterward it booted and all my old settings and tweaks worked as I wanted them to.
XP on the other hand refused to boot. I had to reformat my C partition, I lost all my old settings (of which I was not able to make a backup. How do you backup your registry and import it to a newer PC?). Then I had to install every single piece of software imaginable (firewall, virus scanner, etc). Ah yes, and I had to download a driver for my network card, which is very hard to do without a network card (okay, I could have used the driver CD, but why use an older, buggier version?). It took me several hours (yes, HOURS) to have a more or less workable windows box.

My point: linux is not by definition harder to configure than windows.

[aysiu]

In the news, there are basically two kinds of articles about the Linux desktop:

1. It's ready for the desktop this year. This is the year! This is the year! It's now easy! Anyone can do it!

2. It's not ready for the desktop. It'll never be ready for the desktop. It's over. You people are delusional.

Here's a #2 (http://www.ofb.biz/safari/article/403.html) I just saw and my favorite bit from the article: Sure, GNU/Linux worked fine for me, but it never seems to reach the state that the average novice can sit down in front of an untweaked copy of a major distribution and do everything he or she wants. I'd really love to have the author site an "average novice" in front of an untweaked copy of Windows and play DVDs or word process.

Every "average novice" needs the operating system tweaked, of course. That's what makes average novices... novices.

Oh, well. Add another to the pile...

[ComplexNumber]

there was a usability study in 2003 that even showed kde being easy to use for long time windows users. that was 3 years ago, and 3 years is a long time in the world of open source. things have come on significantly since then.
http://www.linux-usability.de/download/summary_linux_usability.pdf

[aysiu]

Thanks for the link, ComplexNumber.

[justin whitaker]

Heh. My wife sat down in front of Dapper, and figured it out just fine.

She thinks "Linux is ugly" though. :mrgreen:

[aysiu]

Heh. My wife sat down in front of Dapper, and figured it out just fine.

She thinks "Linux is ugly" though. :mrgreen:
Same here. In fact, I've had several guests sit themselves down at my Ubuntu computer and not even know they weren't using Windows. They just clicked on the Firefox icon and started checking their email, even opening Word attachments in OpenOffice. No complaints, no need for guidance.

My wife likes the looks of OS X much better. Plus, she needs its applications (Adobe CS2, Flash).

I have to say I'm an Aqua-phile, too, but I just can't stand OS X's user interface. It looks nice, but I don't like the way it functions. My #1 pet peeve is minimized windows not restoring when you Cmd-Tab to them.

Behavior is more important to me than looks.

[John.Michael.Kane]

Not this again.....

Will this stuff ever end or atleast be writen in a perspective that does not ring of linux is not this or that or sucks..



For most endusers there will never be a one size fits all cookie cutter OS..

[aysiu]

I tried to write one that was a bit different. It's long, though:
http://www.psychocats.net/essays/linuxdesktopmyth

[msimon1960]

I found this to be an interesting thread -- I'm a complete noob on Linux/Ubunto but I'm finding it intriguing enough to explore it a bit.

I've tried every major desktop OS since my first Sinclair in the late seventies. I've had major frustrations with Microsoft on every point raised here and yet, despite them, and despite the cost I've persevered because it generally works and has applications that do the things I need to do.

The real issue here is simply: What keeps Windows users from adopting Linux? The answer is fairly simple -- it's too difficult to switch. For example --

1. Instructions are sketchy and scattered -- just a documentation exercise -- it took quite a bit of searching to chase down basic info like version (Warty vs. Dapper) to help me understand what software I'm actually using. If the Ubunto community would be willing to put in a tiny fraction of the time spent on developing code into writing a fairly complete installation and desktop manual it would be a godsend. The existing manual is an exercise in stripped minimalism.

2. Driver installation -- ndiswrappers and .deb files and .rpm files. A standard for installing hardware with a nice little GUI would be nice -- I think this needs to be priority for all the distributions.

I think item #1 is something that could be done quickly and easily by a small group in the Ubunto community that are committed to making it easy to switch from Windows to Ubunto.

Item #2 is a little more challenging as it would require everyone to act like grown-ups and adopt a common standard that hardware developers could economically support. I can only imagine the horror of supporting linux with dozens of different distributions each wanting their own driver installation protocols.

Just some thoughts...

Matthew.

[aysiu]

Preinstallation would pretty much take care of #2. I'm not sure what you mean about .deb and .rpm files. Package management couldn't be an easier than it is--it's already a lot easier than setup.exe files in Windows.

#1 surprises me, actually. I came to Ubuntu specifically because of the good documentation on sites like http://www.ubuntuguide.org and http://doc.gwos.org

I even wrote a site that's about as basic as it can get (screenshots-galore!):
http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntu

For installing software via point-and-click, it doesn't get much better than this:
http://www.monkeyblog.org/ubuntu/installing

Why the official documentation is so poor in general (with a few notable exceptions)... I don't know.

[John.Michael.Kane]

aysiu very well thought out article you wrote. I like how it was broken downinto sections.Each section having clear explanations,and reason's given.

I would have thought that your article would have been looked at before anyone made the jump to linux.

Though one could say that only way to learn linux is to use linux,and I'm not talking about a day or two.

[aysiu]

If I didn't break it down into sections, no one would read it!

People don't need to read it before making the jump to Linux, but they should read it before deciding to write stupid articles like the one I linked to in the first post.

[dasunst3r]

I don't know if I should consider myself lucky, but Linux "just worked" for me. Sure, I had to install a few of those "illegal" codec packages and stuff to satisfy my embracing of civil disobedience, but I can do all my tasks in Linux except for video editing.

[Rackerz]

I don't know if I should consider myself lucky, but Linux "just worked" for me. Sure, I had to install a few of those "illegal" codec packages and stuff to satisfy my embracing of civil disobedience, but I can do all my tasks in Linux except for video editing.

That's a large problem, there isn't any codecs in the OS to begin with and because there illegal it scares some users away.

[DoctorMO]

The media is controlled by people who don't want users to have freedoms. we should try and get people to use free and open formats and stop grumbeling about codecs.

200 emails to the bbc and they'll start looking into ogg theora instead of real media and wmv.

[Rumor]

Here's a #2 (http://www.ofb.biz/safari/article/403.html) I just saw and my favorite bit from the article:

Sure, GNU/Linux worked fine for me, but it never seems to reach the state that the average novice can sit down in front of an untweaked copy of a major distribution and do everything he or she wants.


I'd really love to have the author site an "average novice" in front of an untweaked copy of Windows and play DVDs or word process.


I think that would be a very interesting experiment. Take, say, 50 people who have never sat down in front of a computer before with 50 identically configured systems; 25 with an out of the box install of Windows XP and 25 with an out of the box install of one of the more "newbie friendly" distros, Mepis or Freespire or PCLinuxOS. Give them a few days to use the machines and see what they can accomplish, what do they like or dislike, how productive were they able to be? Word processing, playing DVDs or MP3s or even managing a web-games website or a video site. And I mean out of the box untweaked, un-updated, no installation of missing drivers, codecs, flash, quicktime, whatever. Just right off the CD and then sit down and see what they can do with it as it is.

It would be interesting to see where Windows got high marks and where Linux got high marks.

But, even if such an experiment were feasible and the results published, you know they'd be thrashed by the Windows community as an unfair comparison, and they'd probably be right. (See, I am assuming Windows would come out on the short end of the deal).

In the meantime, however, I doubt you will ever see an end to those types of articles. As you pointed out in a post some time back, there are too many "well intentioned trolls" out there to ever let it die.

[John.Michael.Kane]

Some linux users have taken the Improvise, Adapt and Overcome way of doing things when it comes to their (insert your Distro here).

Almost every problem that one could come up with in reguards to linux has some solution.

The question is are the linux endusers willing to use whatever means given them to get their system/s to run how they want even if it means using the commandline or mixing diffrent software.

[carlgm]

200 emails to the bbc and they'll start looking into ogg theora instead of real media and wmv.

Install Helix or Real Player like you would to play Real Media on Windows.

It's fine to provide information on advantages of ogg, but it's not fine to "educate" people in the reason why real media or wmv are the root of all evil and cannot be used.

The road to hell is paved with good intension's and fanatical FOSS clerics.

[finalbeta]

Linux for human beings, so what am I? Or else put, how to convert my 1200€ PC into a 600€ one.

I've been using Ubuntu for several months now. Part of me really likes it and want to keep using it. The other part likes using his scanner, webcam, 5.1 sound, or proper TV card sound, remote control or firewire hard disks, wireless.

None of the above hardware components worked when I installed Ubuntu, some of them I could hack into Ubuntu, Like 5.1 sound, but at loss of quality or control. Some people have been able to get the scanner I use running, but I failed on that.

Stuff that does work out of the box has serious disadvantages when running it in Linux. Like graphics, sound, Wireless.

When looking at the specs pages on launchpad, I see several nice features that might get implemented. But why implement if the basics don't properly work?
I realize this sounds as me being very negative. And I know all of the above has a very good reason. But the result is me being forced back on windows.

How does the future look for hardware support in Linux? (I know this is a broad question). If Ubuntu wants to be the OS for the Desktop, should focus not be with hardware?

[PriceChild]

If ubuntu didn't work for me... i would go try another distrobution.

Just because ubuntu doesn't detect all your hardware doesn't mean Debian won't for example.

[Roger Mudd]

Just because ubuntu doesn't detect all your hardware doesn't mean Debian won't for example.

Why is that? Not trying to be a smart-***. Just curious.

[aysiu]

1. No OS works or claims to work automatically with all hardware.

2. Some people have been a lot luckier than you. Your experience isn't typical.

3. If you want to take the guesswork out of hardware detection, do research on Linux-compatible hardware or buy a computer with Ubuntu preinstalled.

4. Why do different distros detect hardware differently? (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=170434)

[DoctorMO]

How does the future look for hardware support in Linux? (I know this is a broad question). If Ubuntu wants to be the OS for the Desktop, should focus not be with hardware?

Hardware support is developed by the people who own that hardware; if you have hardware that isn't supported is means that no developer has that hardware. so you have to either 1) petition a developer _and_ the hardware maker so the developer can develop the floss support. 2) learn how to develop and write the drivers or 3) buy new hardware.

unfortunatly Ubuntu does not have the support of hardware makers and thus it's not ubuntu's fault but the hardware makers for not making the information available to develop support.

[cunawarit]

But the result is me being forced back on windows.

As DoctorMo says, it really isn't Ubuntu's fault that more hardware isn't supported.

However, you are right, it would be frustrating if had only one computer and I could not do certain things. That's why I have three :) My half decent machine is running Windows, even though in all honesty using Windows on a day to day basis is not the most fun of endeavors, I need it for work. The other two are oldies, but at least one of them runs Debian Etch nicely.

There are other options to a second PC, you could go the dual boot route and use Windows when need be. Or you could just be very very careful with the hardware you buy... I personally haven't had many problems, but then again I don't have much fancy new hardware.

[Brunellus]

Linux for human beings, so what am I? Or else put, how to convert my 1200€ PC into a 600€ one.

I've been using Ubuntu for several months now. Part of me really likes it and want to keep using it. The other part likes using his scanner, webcam, 5.1 sound, or proper TV card sound, remote control or firewire hard disks, wireless.

None of the above hardware components worked when I installed Ubuntu, some of them I could hack into Ubuntu, Like 5.1 sound, but at loss of quality or control. Some people have been able to get the scanner I use running, but I failed on that.

Stuff that does work out of the box has serious disadvantages when running it in Linux. Like graphics, sound, Wireless.

When looking at the specs pages on launchpad, I see several nice features that might get implemented. But why implement if the basics don't properly work?
I realize this sounds as me being very negative. And I know all of the above has a very good reason. But the result is me being forced back on windows.

How does the future look for hardware support in Linux? (I know this is a broad question). If Ubuntu wants to be the OS for the Desktop, should focus not be with hardware?
The focus can't be on the hardware if device manufacturers do not release specifications for their devices which enable Free Software developers to write good drivers for them.

Linux users get tarred with the red brush too much, but we do have one thing in common with the Soviets: we have to reverse-engineer almost everything, because the relevant hardware specs are secret.

This is not easy. It is the difference between building a car using proper blueprints and building it by disassembling a running car and cutting exact replicas of every individual part.

So no, hardware incompatibilities are, at a fundamental level, not really Linux's fault.

If Linux didn't work for you today, take your 1200 euro machine and run an operating system that does work for you. By all means be happy. Linux didn't work for a lot of people five years ago. It works for more of them now.

[aysiu]

I thought reverse engineering was more like tasting a good dish at a restaurant and then having to construct a recipe out of it.

[Brunellus]

I thought reverse engineering was more like tasting a good dish at a restaurant and then having to construct a recipe out of it.
once again, aysiu, you make things clearer. Yes, that's more like it.

Except that, to shield themselves from legal liability, Free Software engineers have to do "clean room" reverse-engineer things. One developer has to examine the device to be reverse-engineered and write a detailed specification. Then another team reverse-engineers using that specification. This prevents any possibility that the reverse engineering team can be held liable for "copied" code.

So to stick with your example, this would be like having somebody else go to the restaurant, taste the dish, write a detailed report, and then your having to recreate it for a wider public using only a secondhand report.

[aysiu]

I don't know how they do it.

[JAPrufrock]

How does the future look for hardware support in Linux? (I know this is a broad question). If Ubuntu wants to be the OS for the Desktop, should focus not be with hardware?

Yeah, the hardware support issue is a real problem. I managed to get most of my stuff working, except a Lexmark printer (it only cost me $100 and Lexmark's a disgusting Co. anyway, so I'm gonna buy an HP). It seems to be a chicken and egg problem (which comes first?). Although the number of Linux users is growing, it still represents a small share of the market for a lot of hardware vendors, so there is no great incentive to provide drivers, code, etc., for Linux. So the more Linux users there are, the more incentive there will be for vendors to provide software, and the more supported hardware there will be. Unfortunately, most potential users don't want to make the switch to Linux unless most of their already purchased hardware is immediately functional. As previously mentioned possible solutions would be to have more than one computer, or have a dual-boot system, and then promise to never, ever purchase another MS product in the future. And when you do buy new hardware, check to see what works well with the particular distro that you have. I have a dual-boot system (XP and Ubuntu), but once I buy a printer and figure out how to download images from my digital camera, I'll be MS free. A noble and glorious goal!!

[aysiu]

Unfortunately, most potential users don't want to make the switch to Linux unless most of their already purchased hardware is immediately functional. As previously mentioned possible solutions would be to have more than one computer, or have a dual-boot system, and then promise to never, ever purchase another MS product in the future. And when you do buy new hardware, check to see what works well with the particular distro that you have. One solution Poofyhairyguy has used himself and proposed to others to use is selling your old (non-compatible) hardware on eBay and using that money to buy new (compatible) hardware.

Edit: Just spotted this story...
Linux desktop driver woes: Laying blame, lobbying, coping (http://searchopensource.techtarget.com/columnItem/0,294698,sid39_gci1225136,00.html)

[kvonb]

The one thing that impressed me about Ubuntu the very first time I ran it, was the fact that it detected and setup ALL my hardware on the first boot!

Never have I seen Linux so useful, and I have never gone back.

The icing on the cake came when I plugged in my usb cannon scanner, expecting disappointment, it actually worked!

I've used Linux in various guises since 1998, and Ubuntu is the best I've ever used.

I've come to change my way of thinking about the differences, ie hardware and software, if I can't get it to work, and nobody on these forums can help; I either accept it the way it is, or drop it and find some other way of doing it, or change hardware (if or when I can afford it).

It has been a paradigm shift in my computer usage habits, less arrogant and demanding, more communal and flexible. I want to keep Ubuntu, so I change and adapt rather than run straight back to the "drug dealer".

I believe it is worth this extra effort because I feel good that I am not supporting (or pirating) a world dominating operating system, although I have nothing against Microsoft or Mr Gates, in fact I admire him for putting his time and money into helping others with his charity work.

Sadly in todays world political and social (or rather lack of) climate, this seems to be a dying part of humanity.
(end rant)

Regards,

Kev :)

[jdodson]

To answer the title to this post, because it is funny.

You are a human. Unless you are actually a non-human with the abilty to write cohesively on a computer for other humans to understand.

Though, no one said Ubuntu was dead simple with no prior experience.

Then again, neither is any other OS, but some are moreso than Ubuntu.

[Bezmotivnik]

2. Some people have been a lot luckier than you. Your experience isn't typical.
I think it probably is; anyone with a multi-function home desktop setup with various peripherals and devices is probably going to have something that won't work under Linux/Ubuntu.

3. If you want to take the guesswork out of hardware detection, do research on Linux-compatible hardware or buy a computer with Ubuntu preinstalled.
"Detection," "Linux-supported" and soforth does not mean that the actual device will work on any one particular computer with Ubuntu or any other Linux without additional fiddling, if at all. There are no guarantees here. There will always be lots of "guesswork."

The tech discussions here are full of examples. I personally have lots of "Linux-supported" stuff that is recognized and installed by Ubuntu (or other distros) -- it just doesn't function. :-k

Blaming the victims doesn't help.

[3rdalbum]

Just to clarify:

Dirty-room reverse engineering is where you disassemble software or just study its works, and use it to develop your own implementation. This is generally illegal.

Clean-room reverse engineering is where you look at specifications that others have written, and develop your implementation through those alone.

Clean-room-dirty-room is where you have two teams: One to develop from specifications, the other to write specifications from studying the program's functionality. The teams must only communicate through an intermediary. The clean-room team can request that the dirty-room team creates a specifications document, but that document is inspected for possible disassembled code or other things that the clean team must not view.

Open-source reverse engineering is usually done completely clean-room.

[DoctorMO]

er not quite 3rdalbum, clean room reverse engeneering can take the form of getting a protocall or file format and figuring out how _that_ works because it isn't code and not under copyright (except to the person who created the file perhaps)

[ago]

The other part likes using his scanner, webcam, 5.1 sound, or proper TV card sound, remote control or firewire hard disks, wireless.

If you want hardware support, you need to give incentives to hardware manufacturers. The best incentive known to man is to refuse to buy incompatible hardware. For each piece of hardware there are several alternatives that work well with Linux, buy those. If you already have the hardware, sell it and buy new one. But if you keep buying incompatible hardware, do not complain about lack of support, you are the first one to blame, since with your actions you give the wrong signals to manufacturers...

[Brunellus]

I think it probably is; anyone with a multi-function home desktop setup with various peripherals and devices is probably going to have something that won't work under Linux/Ubuntu.


"Detection," "Linux-supported" and soforth does not mean that the actual device will work on any one particular computer with Ubuntu or any other Linux without additional fiddling, if at all. There are no guarantees here. There will always be lots of "guesswork."

The tech discussions here are full of examples. I personally have lots of "Linux-supported" stuff that is recognized and installed by Ubuntu (or other distros) -- it just doesn't function. :-k

Blaming the victims doesn't help.
The "victim" is not under any threat or coercion to run Linux or any other operating system, to the extent that we're aware.

Personally, I am very conservative in my equipment purchases, and try (to the degree possible) to buy only those things which are known to work or can be made to work in my preferred operating system. It's an old habit from back in the MS-DOS days I haven't lost.

If I were *compelled* to install Linux on systems whose hardware was not under my control, then I'd have to do it with the caveat that certain things will not be supported. If this is unacceptable, run another operating system. It's really that simple.

Do what works. If you're committed to Linux (as I am), buy from vendors which support you (or at least from those that don't actively hinder you). Otherwise, go to another OS that fits your needs. This one will be here when you need it again.

[finalbeta]

Personally, I am very conservative in my equipment purchases, and try (to the degree possible) to buy only those things which are known to work or can be made to work in my preferred operating system.

Yes, we know all that. But it doesn't change the fact that it makes it hard for new users to adopt Linux. And I do believe that is one of the marks for Ubuntu right? Looking at bug #1...

So now It's my fault that I can't run Linux, and people here suggest I should just run the other OS. While that does make sense, it doesn't help the cause. One day, long ago I did in fact buy these PC's, they came with MS Windows pre-installed. In an ideal world I would have bought a PC that supported windows. But you can't very well expect all your users to sell there hardware, or you can... But good luck with that.

I'm inclined to sell the scanner (alto it should be supported but can't get it to work) and the web cam. But the 5.1 audio is part of the motherboard. Selling that would make my Linux desktop more expensive then buying vista. Perhaps I'll give that a try.

[red_Marvin]

What kind of scanner do you have, and what error message do you get when you run xsane?

[aysiu]

If anyone imagines an OS, any OS, will automatically support/detect/work with (whatever term you want to use) every piece of hardware available, she's living in a dream world.

Ubuntu will not take care of bug #1 by being able to support everything out there. Nor will it be able to support everything out there until it's taken care of bug #1. There are not billions of Windows users out there just itching to install Ubuntu once they can be assured it'll detect all their hardware perfectly.

Most computer users do not install operating systems themselves. They use whatever came installed on the computers they've bought.

Read more here:
http://www.psychocats.net/essays/linuxdesktopmyth

[finalbeta]

@red_Marvin: I have an Lifetec LT9385 , Model seems supported when I look on this page : http://www.sane-project.org/sane-backends.html

Altho I don't get the same codes from "sane-find-scanner" like they do.
found USB scanner (vendor=0x0461, product=0x037b [USB Scanner]) at libusb:005:004
Those codes take me to this:
http://www.sane-project.org/unsupported/medion-md6190.html
Which is not supported. Someone claimed to be writing a driver for that one, but never did, his site is offline, I reported it to their bugtracker.

Forging the id's in gt68xx.conf to make it look like:
# Medion/Lifetec/Tevion/Cytron MD/LT 9385:
usb 0x0461 0x037b
override "artec-ultima-2000"
#firmware "/usr/share/sane/gt68xx/gt680xfw.usb"
vendor "Medion"
model "MD/LT 9385"
so the model would be recognised:
finalbeta@finalbeta-desktop:~$ scanimage -L
device `gt68xx:libusb:005:004' is a Medion MD/LT 9385 flatbed scanner
results in "failed to open device ... invalid argument" when starting xsane.

Conclusion, The model of scanner is claimed supported by sane, but just my bad luck, I got some other chipset?
How do I get the information for "Chipset" like they show on this http://www.sane-project.org/unsupported/medion-md6190.html page?


PS Also used: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Lifetec9385Config

[hkgonra]

Hardware support is developed by the people who own that hardware; if you have hardware that isn't supported is means that no developer has that hardware. so you have to either 1) petition a developer _and_ the hardware maker so the developer can develop the floss support. 2) learn how to develop and write the drivers or 3) buy new hardware.

unfortunatly Ubuntu does not have the support of hardware makers and thus it's not ubuntu's fault but the hardware makers for not making the information available to develop support.

Does that mean drivers will be written and put in the kernel if a dev has that hardware ? [-o< I have a raid card that I would love to see supported. In fact I have three of them, I wonder if I could send it to a dev for a few months and get the drivers included in the distro ? I would be more than willing.

[Overcast32]

Hardware support is developed by the people who own that hardware; if you have hardware that isn't supported is means that no developer has that hardware. so you have to either 1) petition a developer _and_ the hardware maker so the developer can develop the floss support. 2) learn how to develop and write the drivers or 3) buy new hardware.

unfortunatly Ubuntu does not have the support of hardware makers and thus it's not ubuntu's fault but the hardware makers for not making the information available to develop support.


Yeah - sadly enough. but when one version of Linux eventually overcomes this wall - watch out other OS's :)

And consider with Vista - you can only change it twice anyway, lol. So - which is worse? hmmmm

I'm not a Linux 'fanboi' by the way. But Microsoft's EULA has me pretty psyched to get this working.

[Bezmotivnik]

The "victim" is not under any threat or coercion to run Linux...

Compulsion is not the grievance; dishonesty is.

Just because you aren't "coercing" new users doesn't give you a free pass to lie to them.

That's what fanboys can never get their heads around. A lie is still bad even when it's supporting your holy cause. It's getting dangerously close to the old Bolshevik axiom that all statements are the truth if they further The Revolution.

Seem a little too familiar?

Being willfully deceived by another does make you a victim.

What lies? OK, stay with me here:

First of all, there's the sort of soft untruth implicit in that "For Human Beings" puffery that started this thread, and the more wild-eyed evangelism of the aggressive Ubuntu CD distributors. The clear, if implicit, message is that Ubuntu has solved all the problems that kept the public away from desktop Linux and now Linux is for everyone, at least all human beings. That's not true. It's better, it's an improvement...but only incrementally compared to the manifold remaining obstacles that Linux still presents to the new user. It may even work less well than another distribution for some people and their equipment. If one has seriously tried major desktop Linux distributions recently and has experienced numerous problems, he'll probably have most of them with Ubuntu as well.

So, we get threads like this -- every day it seems. People trying Ubuntu in good faith have been misled by this hype, and hype is exactly what it is.

Secondly, when confronted with this, the fanboys go into defense with the untruth that the victim is an unusual case, a freak, a non-human, a moron, or at least an unfortunate, because having these problems is not typical (that's already come up in this thread). That's beyond a soft untruth, and beyond being a further lie to obfuscate the more general lie contained in the hype -- it's an insult added to injury. It's blaming the victim.

Thirdly, there's the more specific "Linux-supported" hardware lie and its sisters, the "installed" or "recognized" lies. Just because a device is supported, installed or recognized by Ubuntu does not guarantee that it's going to work at that point. It may work, it may work with a little (or a lot) more fiddling or it may never work on your machine. Read the tech discussions.

None of this is the least bit in question. Even the most deluded fanboys admit it eventually in discussions among themselves. They just won't admit it in discussions with irate suckers who've been burned by the hype.

Am I bashing Ubuntu? No. Am I bashing Linux? No. Ubuntu is what it is, namely just another desktop Linux distribution, which means that it's essentially experimental, with all the practical uncertainty that entails, and that's OK.

I'm bashing liars, because they deserve it, and much worse.

"Ubuntu: A nice, well-intentioned example of an experimental work in progress that we like a lot and might more or less work OK for you with a bit of geek-fiddling -- or not."

Admittedly, it doesn't have that ad-agency ring to it as a persuasive slogan. On the other hand, it would probably lessen the weekly number of these irate flames occasioned by misleading new users. ;)

[msimon1960]

I'm beginning to find the sites you are referring to -- it looks like there are mountains of it out there. My observation is that it would be great if it were consolidated somewhere by the Ubuntu Community -- as you've noted the official documentation is very, very sketchy.

The package stuff for the Ubuntu software is very slick as you've noted. Where it seems to get messy is when I'm trying to install software from other vendors -- for instance -- I have Lexmark E232 Laser Printer. They have at least 6 different packages for different distros/versions of linux/unix. If the core product is the same why not have one installation procedure for all? It would sure make it easier for the hardware vendors to support.

I'm fine with the do-it-your-way philosophy of the various linux distros but surely everyone just wants a hardware installation routine that just works?! Seems like a core function to me.

[aysiu]

Where it seems to get messy is when I'm trying to install software from other vendors -- for instance -- I have Lexmark E232 Laser Printer. They have at least 6 different packages for different distros/versions of linux/unix. If the core product is the same why not have one installation procedure for all? It would sure make it easier for the hardware vendors to support.

I'm fine with the do-it-your-way philosophy of the various linux distros but surely everyone just wants a hardware installation routine that just works?! Seems like a core function to me. I think the natural impulse of the new user (having been one myself only last year) is to think that better hardware support is a means to achieving the goal of more widespread adoption.

It's quite the reverse, actually. Once you get widespread adoption, you will achieve the goal of better hardware support. If Ubuntu ever gets to 10% of the desktop market, Lexmark and other vendors will bend of backwards to make sure they have a driver .deb file you can double-click to install in Ubuntu.

For more on the social aspects of desktop Linux, read this essay (warning: it's long):
http://www.psychocats.net/essays/linuxdesktopmyth

[DoctorMO]

Driver installation -- ndiswrappers and .deb files and .rpm files. A standard for installing hardware with a nice little GUI would be nice -- I think this needs to be priority for all the distributions.

There is: 1) Kernel Level Drivers (support almost everything out of the box) 2) libusb, support external drivers 3) project based development (i.e. gutten-print or sane)

So lexmark for instance _should_ be working with gutten_print in order to get all their printers working in open source code. that way ubuntu can have the support by default and you shouldn't need to install anything. or at the very most gutten_print which is a one stop shop for printers.

[red_Marvin]

Sorry for the late reply...
To get my scanner working I had to copy a file (possibly the firmware) from the scanner install cd (windows).
I can't say what name your file would have, but mine was called Snape50.bin (Agfa snapscan e50)
-so search for something like "gt680xfw.bin" or alike bu keep your mind open.
If you find it put it in the folder that #firmware spcifies (= /etc/sane...etcetera)
and uncomment the line (remove the '#' in the beginning of the line)

You probably have to run sane-find-scanner and scanimage -L again.

[Gargamella]

i understand what you say...but you have to know that linux is having a great development in these years, and you don't have to give up.
Some of my hardware is not simple to set in ubuntu... but i understood that unix is my home...not windows.

If you can go towards these problems...buying for example a system76 pc for example or another really compatible pc, i think that your expirience would be great.

I saw that linux in these years has passed from an utopy or a thing for genius to an accessible and simpler software.
So don't let these thing bring you down and walk on...trying others distros for example.

[DoctorMO]

Does that mean drivers will be written and put in the kernel if a dev has that hardware ? I have a raid card that I would love to see supported. In fact I have three of them, I wonder if I could send it to a dev for a few months and get the drivers included in the distro ? I would be more than willing.

You'll have to ask them, I know of a number of times this has been done and worked out well. it's normal to ask give a little donation too once the driver works.

To get my scanner working I had to copy a file (possibly the firmware) from the scanner install cd (windows).
I can't say what name your file would have, but mine was called Snape50.bin (Agfa snapscan e50)
-so search for something like "gt680xfw.bin" or alike bu keep your mind open.
If you find it put it in the folder that #firmware spcifies (= /etc/sane...etcetera)
and uncomment the line (remove the '#' in the beginning of the line)

Man I have to write that damn script once Dohickey is finished that gets the correct firmware off the windows driver cds and puts it in the right place when you click on 'set up this hardware' because scanner firmware is starting to irate me.

[hkgonra]

You'll have to ask them, I know of a number of times this has been done and worked out well. it's normal to ask give a little donation too once the driver works.





How do I got about contacting them ?

[Henry Rayker]

I never really took the "Ubuntu: Linux for human beings" slogan to mean, "Ubuntu: Linux that will work for you perfectly out of the box, given you have the proper genome configuration"

When I saw the slogan, I took it as, "Ubuntu: Linux backed by an accessable socially supportive community, as opposed to a cold corporation." The "human beings" part, to me, just said that it's not a silly machine running the show.

When certain parts of my laptop didn't work under Ubuntu immediately, I didn't feel lied to; I felt like I had a little work to do. Now that I can troubleshoot most problems that have arisen with my laptop, I feel comfortable spreading it to my desktop, as well as my girlfriend's desktop.

[DoctorMO]

How do I got about contacting them ?

For kernel related drivers read this: http://www.tux.org/lkml/ and then ask a question on the lists.

For Scanners go to sane, for printers go to guten-print.

[.t.]

It's good to see a moan that hasn't immediately turned into a flame-fest. So, I think it'll be longer than usual (which I feel is a bad thing to be saying) until this thread gets on aysiu's list of "All my favorite Linux desktop readiness threads...".

Even if all your hardware doesn't work first time, I definintely recommend to persevere. I have been using Linux on and off for a while, but only since about a year now have I been using it full time. All my hardware wasn't supported 5 years ago when I started dabbling, but over time, support did indeed grow to perfection. I don't have any complaints now. So, if it doesn't work out this time, remember we will all be here in furture, and will gladly welcome you back!

[alinioanovici]

This is the story of a Windows user’s reencounter with Linux via the Ubuntu distribution.

The first time I came into contact with Linux was back in 1996. It was the operating system on our high school server and we used it only from Windows via Telnet for email with pine and nasty pictures download with lynx :)

This went one until 1999. Since then I’ve used Linux only twice. I’ve installed it, took a look and uninstalled it after 15 minutes. The reasons for that are the obvious and well known, but there are also reasons just as obvious, but much less known and admitted as problems by the Linux development community.

Very recent I saw somewhere the text “Linux for human beings”. I’ve clicked on immediately and read the story. Some dude made 500 mil by selling his company, went to space and came back to start a 10 mil company to finally build the Linux that all of us are waiting for: a true operating system that doesn’t require to much operating on itself from the normal, average, beginner even, Windows accustomed user. The distribution name? It’s kind of funny really, it’s “Ubuntu”.

All sounds perfect! That’s what open-source needs! It needs money and smart open minded leadership. It looks like Ubuntu has that. At this time a smile appears on my face as I begin to wonder. Did the free much waited alternative to Windows finally arrived? May Ubuntu be the Linux for users other than admins and programmers? O my God!!! What am I waiting for? Download, download!!!

However even at this early stage of my Ubuntu encounter I’m a little disappointed of the main Ubuntu color (brown) and the fact that the site looks a little to slim for what I wishfully think the OS will be. Hey, but I surly can change the color after install so that’s not something to worry about no?

So I quickly download the iso, burn it, make place with PartitionMagic, insert the cd and reboot.

At this point all I’m wishing for, is not to see a text mode startup screen. But the text mode appears. Luckily it’s just for 1 second or less so I quickly turn back to my optimistic full of excitement mood especially after a very cool graphic screen immediately appears followed not very shortly by the desktop. I’m even more surprised to see that the brown/orange theme looks actually nice. Immediately I take a look at the menu icons. Hmm… They look kind of nice but don’t have that feel of being a part of a single system. They are just to different from each other.

I might be exaggerating with the importance I give to looks. However, I believe that looks are just as important as the speed and that looks are crucial to the functionality and ergonomics of a software product. But hey, we’re not talking Vista or MacOS but the looks of Ubuntu are acceptable.
I then install the system on my drive and am surprised to see that Ubuntu even has a PartionMagic like embedded app with resize capabilities and all. Is that cool or what? I used PartionMagic first, but how could have I known?

After installation the first thing I do in Windows is to change the screen resolution. So I find the place to do just that in Ubuntu when… the first major problem appears!!! I don’t have the option to take the res to 1280. The maximum res is 1024 and the maximum refresh is 60. Why? The first thought was to seek the equivalent of the Device Manager in Windows. Surly it must be my old video card. The installer surly doesn’t have the drivers for it… But what do you know? It’s not the video card it’s the monitor!! Is that stupid or what? Why can’t I have the option equivalent to dechecking the “Hide modes that this monitor cannot display” option in Windows? Why man? Why? At this point I realize that I cannot work the problem just by clicking buttons and checking combo boxes. After reading some Ubuntu forum posts I manage to change some stupid config file for XWindows and I now have Ubuntu on 1280 res with 75 Hz refresh rate. But now, the smile on my face is kind of gone.

Since I first seen the screenshots of Wine in action, Photoshop on Linux, Word on Linux, I wanted to test this amazing technology by myself. Now it’s the time. My first program install under Linux. But how stupid of me to hope that it will be a “Next, next, …, routine” like in Windows? I manage to install it anyway, only to see that Photoshop doesn’t work, Visio doesn’t work, even Winamp doesn’t work. However Wine it’s not at a final version. I’m not at all troubled especially when I see that some .exe do work. Even Total Commanger works. OMG! A Windows program executed under Linux without an emulator? This is big stuff I know!

But why don’t I have a new smile on my face? Why am I not happy? Why did my experience with Linux after many years left a bad taste in my mouth. Hey, after many years I managed to configure a XWindows server and did the undreamed-of thing of running a Windows executable under Linux even if I’m not a “Linux geek”. That must be something no? Well it’s not.

What about the users who are less familiar with computers? Command line??? Text file configs??? Come on!!!

It was all just a dream. A “Linux for human beings” has not yet arrived. The sad part is that I don’t see it coming any time soon :(

Why and what needs to be done with Linux to achieve that dreamed-of status it will be the subject of a future post.

The conclusion? I soon have to make place on my hard drive for that 3GB monster named Vista :(

[cunawarit]

I disagree entirely.

I use Windows at home and work, in fact, I work as a .NET developer. My expertize with Windows is much greater than Linux in general. However, in nearly every way Ubuntu is easier to maintain than Windows.

Windows strength comes from the amount of support it gets. Not only in terms of proprietary and OS software available for it, but also hardware. You just know that any cellphone, printer, scanner, new community website, etc, etc, etc... will work with it.

However, Ubuntu has many advantages over Windows. The average user couldn't dream of administering a Windows system anywhere near as painlessly as they can with Ubuntu. APT is INCREDIBLY powerful! User are always near bleeding edge with Ubuntu packages because of its 6 month release cycle, and they don't have to worry about viruses either.

Yes, sometimes in Ubuntu and Linux in general you will have to tinker with text based setup files. But is this more painful than installing Windows and hunting for drivers online with a machine that is running in 640x480 in 4 bit colour? I'd argue that overall Ubuntu is much easier to install.

Linux is NOT like Windows. In some ways it is much easier to use than Windows, and in others it isn't. Overall, I think Ubuntu is much a easier system to administer than Windows.

And if you think I am biased, read some of my posts here. I am definitely pro-Windows and anti-Linux-zealotism (if that is a word).

[skymt]

Yes, video configuration is a problem on out-of-the-box Ubuntu. It's almost as big a problem in out-of-the-box Windows. It's just that you never notice that, since Windows comes pre-installed and pre-configured on most computers.

The only way to make a fair comparison between the hardware support in Windows and Ubuntu is to compare with either:

* Identical computers, one with Windows pre-installed, the other with Ubuntu pre-installed (like from System76 (http://system76.com/)).

or

* One computer, installing retail Windows (not OEM-customized) and default Ubuntu, one at a time.


Compatibility with Windows applications is also a big problem. Just a few years ago, any Linux user would think the current state of Wine was impossible. Windows applications running without Windows? Impossible! But no, Wine really works for many applications. It isn't perfect, but it's amazingly close considering the gigantic job the Wine developers have. They're reverse-engineering and re-implementing an operating system. That's huge, and it's amazing that it even almost works.

If you want "next, next, next" installs of Windows applications on Linux, you may want to look at Crossover Office (http://www.codeweavers.com/). It's a commercial application based on Wine, that makes installing certain popular applications (including Microsoft Office) almost as easy as in Windows. It's not without problems, but it's still surprisingly good.


One question you should ask yourself is "whose desktop?" I use Linux exclusively as my desktop OS, since it meets my needs better than Windows. It even syncs with my iPod and Palm. If you need tight integration with a Microsoft system for work, then Linux probably isn't the best choice (yet).

Linux is getting better at an amazing rate, and if corporations would cooperate (opening driver sources, porting applications), it would already be the obvious choice over Windows. The main advantage Windows has over Linux is the difference in market share (and associated issues), and Ubuntu is trying to change that (https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+bug/1).

[alinioanovici]

Easy? Maybe for you and maybe even for me. But trust me that the average user will run scared. There are so many things wrong with Linux that I really need to take my time in putting them down.

For example I don't even agree with the filesystem structure of Unix. Why not separate from the root the users data, the system files, and the system preferences/custom options?

Everything has to be rethinked from scratch in terms of user interface and in terms of a users point of view. It has to be a USER’S TOOL. It just has to be perfect in all the ways if it’s to mach Windows.

[sloggerkhan]

Why did you bother downloading if you just wanted to use commercial windows programs? I will admit that configuring a graphics card can be a pain.

But seriously.... the first thing you did was try to run your Windows apps in wine? HELLO??? OPEN SOURCE?

You will find that almost nobody has any desire to run those programs under linux. The vast majority of Ubuntu users (IMO) use OpenOffice or Evolution or Gimp or Inkscape or Gaim, or whatever free alternative they can install with add/remove programs, the package manager, or, in some cases, scripts like automatix, and and don't think twice about running windows programs. There's just not much of a point.

I've messed with wine once or twice as a curiosity, but somehow I don't think that an average first time user would immediately try to run their favorite windows apps under wine, and it seems a weird basis to condemn the entire OS.

[MetalMusicAddict]

Easy? Maybe for you and maybe even for me. But trust me that the average user will run scared. There are so many things wrong with Linux that I really need to take my time in putting them down.

For example I don't even agree with the filesystem structure of Unix. Why not separate from the root the users data, the system files, and the system preferences/custom options?

Everything has to be rethinked from scratch in terms of user interface and in terms of a users point of view. It has to be a USER’S TOOL. It just has to be perfect in all the ways if it’s to mach Windows.

Well. Sounds like you have alot of work to do. :)

[Artificial Intelligence]

Alot of troubles you'll also ran into if you install Windows. It's not so easy as you think (sure it's easy for you and me, but someone who havn't done it before). If I install windows on my system, it will be in 800x600 16 bit res. I use 1600x1200 32bit which ubuntu detects. The problem is that companies wont release the driver codes for their hardware, so people have to build the drivers and release them to the public (only some few companies offer open source drivers).

There's a world to diffrent between linux and windows, this is the essence new users shall be aware off.


By the way resolution is normally easy to solve.

It still seems you think linux should be a second windows or a clone.

[alinioanovici]

OMG!!!
I didn't want to use Ubuntu for windows commercial products. You have it all wrong. That is not the problem. I am amazed by what Wine achieved.

And by the way, don't try to convince me of anything. Ubuntu showed me all I need 2 know. I cannot be convinced by words. I want to be convinced by Ubuntu the next time I’ll install it.
Look at me as the user that Linux and Ubuntu failed to convince. I ask a little more from Linux than others but that is a good thing in terms of what I want to achieve by entering this forum.
I care about Linux. That's why I started this post. I want to help. My criticism is hard to take, I know, but it could turn out to be a great thing if the right people listen.
That’s the reaction I want MetalMusicAddict. That is how Linux will grow. Defending it from criticism really doesn’t help Linux at all.

[Artificial Intelligence]

Well, if you want to change the things, you have to play the game instead of screaming from the sideline ;)
There's always room for more coders and programmers.

[alinioanovici]

I don't think linux should be a second windows or a clone.

I think Linux has to take the good ideeas from Windows. Windows has more good things than bad things if look from the users point
of view.

[Artificial Intelligence]

You have to be more concrete what you have in mind, alinioanovici. So far you havn't given a specific thing/issue about the subject. Then it can be discussed.

[alinioanovici]

Trust me! You don't want my code :))
I have other abilities. I have vision. I have experience in marketing. I can think like the beginner/average user. I have visions about computer-human interface that Windows and MS cannot even dream of.

[rfruth]

>> Windows strength comes from the amount of support it gets.

That's a mouthful, problem is some of the stuff that runs are things that we would rather not (Malware, keyloggers etc)

[jdq997]

Stop being a drama queen.

- Jason

[alinioanovici]

Stop being a drama queen.

- Jason

lol. what do YOU want Jason from Linux, from life etc.?
Do you know?

[jdq997]

:) Well, Linux is a great, very versatile operating system and it has come to the point now where it is very useful and user friendly for an above average user who is willing to take a few days to get a feel for it. This Ubuntu distribution is particularly good.

There are a lot of things that I would like out of life and out of my operating system, but for someone like me who uses a few core applications (Web, email, office, IM, music, movies) I can be pretty content with Ubuntu. It is very fast, doesn't crash, doesn't get viruses and spyware (something that I always seem to get when I use windows -- bad luck possibly). It is also different, and I have always enjoyed being different. So Linux on the desktop is a daily reality for me. Wasn't too hard to install either. Just upgraded to edgy on the desktop and the laptop with only a couple of easy to fix problems.

- Jason

[janbockaert]

Looks like you are making a lot of beginner-mistakes while switching to linux. i can know, i made the same mistakes when i first start looking at linux. I have had a lot of false starts, and just like you, i used to believe Linux was not ready for the desktop. Boy was i wrong.

First thing you should do is install a couple of multi platform os programs in windows, and start using them. i'm talking, firefox, thunderbird, openoffice, gimp, ... Before i made the switch, 80% of the time i spend in xp, i spend with open source programs. Forget about wine and running .exe files. It works, but never better than native linux programs. Wine is only if you have no alternatives. (but even then, i prefer running xp in an virtual machine)

When you are comfortable running opensource programs (take your time) Pick a distro to dual boot with. But don't pick ubuntu. I know everyone thinks ubuntu is beginner friendly, but it is not. Like you have noticed, there is a lot of comand line and config-files involved with ubuntu. With a distro like opensuse, you will not need the command line once. (ok, maybe once, if you have to install a propretary video driver)

Take your time to learn the distro you picked (i strongly suggest opensuse) 15 minutes is not enough to get to know a new operation system. I spend more than a month dual booting, with xp as my first boot option. Only when you are really comfortable with your linux distro, start using it as your main boot (move your docs and e-mails).

And at last, buy a new pc, one you know that supports linux.

I switched almost a year ago. I am not a computer pro at all. I have not programmed one line of code in my life. i'm just a ordinary "human being", and ubuntu absolutely is my linux. All i did was take my time to switch.

[aysiu]

Moved to the Cafe and added to the pile (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=1276564).

[MetalMusicAddict]

I love the pile. http://ubuntuforums.org/images/icons/icon13.gif

http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/8384/paperpilecq6.jpg

[Brunellus]

Desktops are not ready for users.

To answer the OP's questions:

1) What needs to be done.

Non-Windows operating systems must be pre-installed on new computers for new computer users. This is not the case.


2) Why?

In the '80s, it was possible (normal?) to buy personal computers without software. No OS, no applications, no internet access, no BonziBuddy, nothing. Just bare hardware--your 5.25 inch floppies with (PC-DOS | MS-DOS | CP/M | DR-DOS | Xenix) came separately.

With the proliferation of hard drives, then there was the question of what OS you would get *installed*. This was initially MS-DOS. MS-DOS's dominance became Windows' dominance. This has not changed.

Proper OEM preinstallation would get rid of most "new user" complaints, especially as far as drivers and so forth ar concerned--it would become the OEMs' responsibility to supply and support these, same as it is for OEMs who preinstall Windows. When was the last time you called Microsoft for a driver disc?

A further note: "regular users" don't install operating systems. Most regular users don't even install applications software (at least not consciously).

[aysiu]

Read this. It'll explain everything you need to know about all this "Linux desktop" discussion:
http://www.psychocats.net/essays/linuxdesktopmyth

[tubasoldier]

Stop being a ***** (o) Just go back to windows with your viruses, spyware, and malware. Make sure you defrag your hard drive and run your scandisk weekly. Next, Next, Next, works really well for spyware. OH, and dont forget that we dont want users like you. Open Source is for those who are appreciative that they have just gotten a FREE operating system and loads of software to use with it. Take out your pocketbook and go buy all the stuff you need for windows. Oh, BTW, Vista is not a 3gb monster. Its a 14gb waste of space.

[mostwanted]

Stop being a ***** (o) Just go back to windows with your viruses, spyware, and malware. Make sure you defrag your hard drive and run your scandisk weekly. Next, Next, Next, works really well for spyware. OH, and dont forget that we dont want users like you. Open Source is for those who are appreciative that they have just gotten a FREE operating system and loads of software to use with it. Take out your pocketbook and go buy all the stuff you need for windows. Oh, BTW, Vista is not a 3gb monster. Its a 14gb waste of space.

You can argue a point without being aggressive. That is not a nice tone at all, we try to do without that on this forum.

[cunawarit]

Moved to the Cafe and added to the pile (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=1276564).

lol! that's great :)

I seriously don't understand why people don't give things a chance. How can someone complain about the file structure? How is the file structure in Linux any worse than in Windows, they are just different.

Also, I'll never understand what the issue is with text config files. If every setting involved changing a text file, then fine. But that's not really the case. Also all you need is a text editor, how is that any worse than the Windows registry?

[raul_]

I don't have the time to read all the posts. I just want to say that (no offense here) Linux doesn't really need u. I say this because many guys say "Hey Linux isn't ready for the Desktop, it will never have a big share in the market, blablabla, blebleble"

Well guess what...Linux doesn't want a big piece of the market. Linux doesn't care if some user didn't like it, it's not like u're paying for it.

If i were one of those guys i'd ask for a refund

[aysiu]

tubasoldier, you're right, of course, but I think it all comes down to expectations. The OP had unreasonable expectations, and those weren't (unsurprisingly) met. To each her own.

[cunawarit]

Make sure you defrag your hard drive and run your scandisk weekly.

This is exactly the sort of comment that does no favors to anyone. Some people need to stop pretending that Windows isn't a usable OS, it clearly is. Despite its problems it is an easy to use, fully featured, stable OS.

Who will you convince by an argument like this? Windows users know that there is no need to defrag and run scandisk every week. Nobody will be convinced by such an argument because it is clearly born out of bias and/or ignorance

[Lord Illidan]

Easy? Maybe for you and maybe even for me. But trust me that the average user will run scared. There are so many things wrong with Linux that I really need to take my time in putting them down.

For example I don't even agree with the filesystem structure of Unix. Why not separate from the root the users data, the system files, and the system preferences/custom options?

Everything has to be rethinked from scratch in terms of user interface and in terms of a users point of view. It has to be a USER’S TOOL. It just has to be perfect in all the ways if it’s to mach Windows.

You've only used Ubuntu for a few hours and you are already thinking that you know more than the developers themselves. come on mate. Why use Winamp when there is Amarok? As for the brown theme, that is Ubuntu specific and very easy to change....and there are far more themes than you will find with Windows. Same goes for icons.

As for your resolution, etc, I accept your point. X.org needs to be more userfriendly in that area, but that will soon be solved, Elektra probably will take care of it.
Try and use Ubuntu seriously before coming up and spouting out your fancy ideas.

[aysiu]

Windows users know that there is no need to defrag and run scandisk every week. Not the Windows users I know...

[Brunellus]

You've only used Ubuntu for a few hours and you are already thinking that you know more than the developers themselves. come on mate. Why use Winamp when there is Amarok? As for the brown theme, that is Ubuntu specific and very easy to change....and there are far more themes than you will find with Windows. Same goes for icons.

As for your resolution, etc, I accept your point. X.org needs to be more userfriendly in that area, but that will soon be solved, Elektra probably will take care of it.
Try and use Ubuntu seriously before coming up and spouting out your fancy ideas.
Users of this sort don't want grubby alternatives. They want their Windows programs. No amount of convincing loosens their grip on Windows programs.

Conversely, some of the most enthusiastic Linux adopters were already using Free software on Windows. I, for instance, was already using the GIMP and Firefox on Windows. When a Windows box crashed and was unbootable, Linux was a viable option--and I haven't looked back.

[cunawarit]

Not the Windows users I know...

Perhaps I should have said "Windows users that have a clue"... I think you get clueless users everywhere, sadly Windows gets the most because Windows itself is nearly unavoidable... Just about any PC you buy will have Windows installed.

[aysiu]

Perhaps I should have said "Windows users that have a clue"... I think you get clueless users everywhere, sadly Windows gets the most because Windows itself is nearly unavoidable... Just about any PC you buy will have Windows installed.
I guess I was a Windows user without a clue, then, and so was my wife.

Now, of course, we're not Windows users...

[cunawarit]

Conversely, some of the most enthusiastic Linux adopters were already using Free software on Windows. I, for instance, was already using the GIMP and Firefox on Windows. When a Windows box crashed and was unbootable, Linux was a viable option--and I haven't looked back.

I think you hit the nail on the head there, I am loving my newly adopted OS. And I am one of those Windows users that love open source, I use GIMP, Firefox, ClamWin, CygWin, etc...

[fuscia]

yup, you definitely hit the thumb on the nail. i, also, was using firefox, thunderbird, gimp (dumped photoshop for it), etc. and just moved onto linux. i'm not a technical person and i never read any of the documentation thoroughly and i've done fine.

[cunawarit]

I guess I was a Windows user without a clue, then, and so was my wife.

I didn't mean to cause offense, sorry if I did.

I simply meant that unless you are doing some sort of serious disc usage your disc is not going to be very fragmented a week later, and unless the disc is dying you shouldn't have to run scandisk every week.

[aysiu]

You're right. You don't have to defragment.

I'm just saying that many Windows users (even power users) operate under the impression that they do have to. Otherwise, why would people ask how to defragment in Ubuntu (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/search.php?searchid=9103825)?

In the end, it doesn't really matter. The OP should definitely go back to Windows, whether or not defragmentation is involved...

[Henry Rayker]

Am I the only one who found Windows more difficult to set up? Granted, I really like to have my system set up a specific way, but Windows requires me to open a whole buttload of setup dialogs (show hidden files, show file extensions, things of that nature). On my ubuntu system, I don't show hidden files because I just do a ls -a in terminal to see the hidden files (usually it's to edit a configuration file...yes, Windows does use those, from time to time).

I prefer editing text files to configuration windows. That way you can actually back it up and restore, if need-be.

Additionally, by installing a retail version of Windows, my systems start out much more "broken". My laptop, without my OEM cd, doesn't have ethernet OR USB capabilities. Those have to be enabled by a driver. When I installed windows and found I had no net-capabilities, I installed Ubuntu, expecting the same...but figured I'd fix my windows installation, then fix Ubuntu; to my surprise, my Ubuntu install had USB and ethernet right from the start.

I think the best way to sum up these threads is: The posters usually have zero experience from installing a system from scratch. I think they may have used OEM cds, because that's what came with their systems, but other than that, nothing.

[aysiu]

Am I the only one who found Windows more difficult to set up? No, but the vast majority of Windows users buy Windows preinstalled, so they don't set up Windows--it's a moot point.

[dca]

It's fine if you want to bash it or post rah-rahs about Ubuntu. Personally, I take it all the comparisons of what works vs what doesn't with a grain of salt. However, I would never take criticism about it from someone who at least doesn't have as much knowledge of Windows as they do Linux. There's no common frame of reference. Too much one-sided-ness... Okay, you know how to use Windows. Great!

[matt_risi]

Guys.

This isn't the way to go about this.

The guy doesn't like ubuntu, so he posts and explains why, and he gets flamed. This isn't the community I joined when I did my first install back in the summer.

Open source isn't just about software, it's a philosophy. The guy gave his opinion and got annihilated by people who told him he was wrong. He wasn't asking for help, he wasn't outwardly insulting any one of you guys.

In a way, people like this are needed, so we don't lose sight of what this is all about. We're building an operating system for the USER. This guy, even for 15 minutes, was a USER. I agree with him that you shouldn't have to edit text-based config files to get your system up, and it was a pain to get my laptop working fine. In fact, I still don't have my resolution up to par.

So take what he wrote seriously, he's not just another jackass flamer, he's valuable for insight as to what could be done better.

[alinioanovici]

I started this topic as a disappointed Ubuntu user to show that not anyone is in love with Ubuntu.
As I sad, I don’t need to be convinced of anything with words. I know why I’m not going to switch to Ubuntu or any other distribution of Linux or BSD. I have good, clear, undisputable reasons for this. I want to be sure I got it all down before I start to enumerate them.
If the authors of Ubuntu are smart they will analyze everyone of my reasons in detail. If they will see me just like another crazy windows addict they are the one who will lose much more than me.
I’m sure that when I will switch to Ubuntu it will be a great day for Ubuntu :)
raul_ and tubasoldier what can I say? Hmmm… just this. Linux needs me. It’s users like you it doesn’t need. Users like you harm Linux more than anything. Users who just feel special and superior cause they use Linux instead of Windows are... well you wont understand so why lose time explain it? If I was more mature I would have ignored you, buy I’m not :). You are good ppl I’m sure though :) Peace :P
matt_risi and others like you, what can I say? You are hope giving.
It’s time for me to go home, grow back my ntfs partition :)) and get some sleep
I’ll be back with all the technical stuff tomorrow. If someone from Ubuntu will use it, it’s fine. If not? It’s not fine.

[aysiu]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I've found that for power users, Linux has reached the "ready for the desktop" phase. For average users, it will never reach that point until it's preinstalled.

But if you have the savvy to download and burn an ISO, you could probably get Ubuntu up and running pretty easily. Otherwise, I wouldn't be here. Honestly, I link tinkering with some things (playing around with themes and icon sets), but I'm not one of those people who like to torture themselves.

For example, I thought about installing Gentoo, but when I looked at the documentation, my reaction was "Yeah, no way in hell!" In most cases, unless you're really unlucky (and, you know what--the live CD before you install gives you a pretty good idea what troubles you're going to run into), only one or two things won't work (maybe screen resolution or wireless). Edit a config file or two or install an extra driver, and you'll be all set.

There's a lot of auto-configuring. Is it possible for Ubuntu to work on every single piece of hardware in existence? Well, if that's your expectation, you're bound to be disappointed. You can't even have that expectation of Windows.

I had to adjust, sure, but it really isn't that difficult to install and use once you get used to it. I've been using Ubuntu a year and a half, and I'd used Windows since 3.1 and MS-DOS before that, so you can hardly argue that it's my years of experience with Ubuntu that makes me favor it over Windows for usability.

It's very simple:

If you're a power user, come with an open mind, and you'll be fine. Ask questions. If you don't come with an open mind, don't bother.

If you're an average user, make a Linux guru friend, or wait until desktops/laptops come preinstalled on Dells.

What's the big hubbub?

[Artificial Intelligence]

to matt_risi:

Not where I'm standing. It looks more like well-camoflage bashing. You can't judge an OS for 15 min. of use that's what I think people are getting upset about. If he want to contribute/make some fair judgement(s) at least he should try to use it in minimum a half year and then pointing out the error(s)/what could be improved.
Same things can be said of all distros/OSs.


A.I. Dude

[d3v1ant_0n3]

Moved to the Cafe and added to the pile (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=1276564).


I actually sat and read ALL of those threads last night. Quite entertaining....but somewhat repetetive.

[Wight_Rhino]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I've found that for power users, Linux has reached the "ready for the desktop" phase. For average users, it will never reach that point until it's preinstalled.

Thanks, Aysiu. That's my belief in a Nutshell.

[Henry Rayker]

I wasn't trying to flame the OP. I want the text based configuration files to stick around. Very least, I want them to be available so that I don't have to weave my way through a tangle of configuration GUIs. Not only the tangle, but the ability to back your settings up completely and reset them (in case you change something you don't like or something).

I'm not saying GUIs are bad for everything...setting up dynamic objects (network connections and the like) for example. However, I would prefer these GUIs just provide a front-end for modifying the underlying files. (Which is how at least most of the GUIs behave now).

I didn't go to open source software to embrace and satisfy everyone and try to spread. I moved to open source software because I don't like the marketing model M$ uses; I don't like Apple's model either. Both leave a nasty taste in my mouth.

[alinioanovici]

I feel i need to remind ppl that I used Ubuntu for 1 hole hour :) with plenty of wishful thinking and open mind. I sincerely wanted to dump Windows and prepared myself for some degree of sacrifice. I know too well what Windows problems are. However Linux has biggest problems than Windows. And it’s not because of market shares, money or experience. I expected too much. That’s all.

[aysiu]

It's not because of the market share? That's a good laugh!

You think Dell preinstalls Windows because it thinks Windows is the best-quality operating system and not because they'd go bankrupt installing an operating system with a 1% or less market share? Do you think commercial software companies create Windows binaries because Windows is a superior operating system and not because of its dominant market share? You think hardware manufacturers are sure to include a CD-ROM with Windows drivers because of anything other than market share?

Your credibility has gone out the window. Sorry. And the only practical suggestion you've offered is to change brown to something else.

[varvar]

Guys.
So take what he wrote seriously, he's not just another jackass flamer, he's valuable for insight as to what could be done better.

^ ^ This man has mind to see what it looks to be a very constructive/helpful topic!

NOW MY PROBLEM:

I’m Windows user, and also used MacOS, I never used Linux! Lately I started to think about alternatives for Windows! I hate Windows, because of his problems, and because the intruding style of Microsoft! They are violating our privacy; they want to catch us in their web! Ok… I want to get rid of it!

Next Step!
I am a graphic artist / professional, working for years in graphic arts industry, very familiar with many standards! So my first concerns were to find the professional tools for my work: equivalents for Photoshop / Illustrator & Corel Family (Draw & Painter)!
I found GIMP & INKSCAPE as best quoted! Great I said! I downloaded Windows versions of both, installed them! …

OMG… when I saw GIMP I just got scared & uninstalled it!!!
OMG… when I saw INKSCAPE … same!

This applications are SCARY JOKES !!! I’m sorry to say this! But are way too far from reality…

WELL… I’m ready to suffer because an “unpolished” OS, but please give me the professional tools for my work! Now I’m captive in the Windows or MacOS world because no competitive alternatives on Linux!

Now Linux is an empty box! Without professional apps to work with!

[Henry Rayker]

Gimp isn't as pretty as Photoshop, but I've found it to be no more intimidating (from a new user's POV) The problem you have, varvar, is that it doesn't look like PS, so you got scared...(that's what I could pull from what you said, at least).

If someone got started initially using Gimp, then looked at PS, they would have a reaction similar to yours.

[aysiu]

I'm a bit sad my Is Ubuntu for You? (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=63315) thread got unstickied. I feel it really would have helped stem a lot of unrealistic expectations. It certainly would have saved varvar from thinking GIMP and Inkscape were professional graphic design applications.

[Brunellus]

^ ^ This man has mind to see what it looks to be a very constructive/helpful topic!

NOW MY PROBLEM:

I’m Windows user, and also used MacOS, I never used Linux! Lately I started to think about alternatives for Windows! I hate Windows, because of his problems, and because the intruding style of Microsoft! They are violating our privacy; they want to catch us in their web! Ok… I want to get rid of it!

Next Step!
I am a graphic artist / professional, working for years in graphic arts industry, very familiar with many standards! So my first concerns were to find the professional tools for my work: equivalents for Photoshop / Illustrator & Corel Family (Draw & Painter)!
I found GIMP & INKSCAPE as best quoted! Great I said! I downloaded Windows versions of both, installed them! …

OMG… when I saw GIMP I just got scared & uninstalled it!!!
OMG… when I saw INKSCAPE … same!

This applications are SCARY JOKES !!! I’m sorry to say this! But are way too far from reality…

WELL… I’m ready to suffer because an “unpolished” OS, but please give me the professional tools for my work! Now I’m captive in the Windows or MacOS world because no competitive alternatives on Linux!

Now Linux is an empty box! Without professional apps to work with!
use what makes you happy. Flame us on their forums.

[aysiu]

Gimp isn't as pretty as Photoshop, but I've found it to be no more intimidating (from a new user's POV) The problem you have, varvar, is that it doesn't look like PS, so you got scared...(that's what I could pull from what you said, at least).

If someone got started initially using Gimp, then looked at PS, they would have a reaction similar to yours.
There's some truth to what you're saying, but there are some features Photoshop has that GIMP does not.

Last I heard, GIMP didn't have CMYK support, there's this CMYK plugin (http://www.blackfiveservices.co.uk/separate.shtml), but its creator even says This plug-in goes some small way towards rectifying the situation, using a trick with layers to fake CMYK support.

[alinioanovici]

aysiu i'm sad now. i have no credibility?
i think this is a case of blaming others for our unsucces. even if that is true that's not very constructive.

even if someone cheats in a game, is't not the solution too cry and point fingers. it's more constructive to be twice as good and still beat the cheater. no?

[alinioanovici]

going home now...

[Nonno Bassotto]

I cannot be convinced by words.

Why did you start a discussion, then? ](*,)

[Nonno Bassotto]

I feel i need to remind ppl that I used Ubuntu for 1 hole hour :) with plenty of wishful thinking and open mind.

You've been using Windows for years. Sure you know how it works!!! And then you try Ubuntu for 1 HOUR!?!?!??! I start thinking you are an experienced linux user and you're trying to make fun of us simulating the most common "What? Isn't Linux identical to Windows?!!?" user

[Brunellus]

You've been using Windows for years. Sure you know how it works!!! And then you try Ubuntu for 1 HOUR!?!?!??! I start thinking you are an experienced linux user and you're trying to make fun of us simulating the most common "What? Isn't Linux identical to Windows?!!?" user
I, personally, continue to be angry that Windows is not the same as MS-DOS.

[alinioanovici]

Sorry Nonno Bassotto but I started quite a while ago. Tomorrow I’ll be back with concrete and complete complains. Didn’t think ppl will answer that much that quickly.
Really gone now :)...

[Artificial Intelligence]

I, personally, continue to be angry that Windows is not the same as MS-DOS.

Hehehe. I miss my C64.

[Brunellus]

Sorry Nonno Bassotto but I started quite a while ago. Tomorrow I’ll be back with concrete and complete complains. Didn’t think ppl will answer that much that quickly.
Really gone now :)...
Keep your complaints. If you have technical problems, please post them to the appropriate technical sub-forums. We can be pretty quick at those, too.

Also, please consult the extensive collection of similar "complaint" threads (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=219243)--your "issues" have already been dealt with and discussed. Endlessly.

Let me explain why we're so mad. Say you've lived in one city for 12 years, then pick up and move to a new town. You arrive, spend an hour unpacking, and then march out to the park. You find a gathering of townsmen and berate them as to how crappy their town is, based on your experience (one hour).


The townsmen--some of whom have been living there their whole LIVES--react to you in ways that are not exactly welcoming. Some dispute your assertions with facts. Others tell you to spend a few more days, and then come back with your impressions. Still others might offer advice on which of your many orifices might be the most appropriate place to put your complaints.

This is what you've done here. Don't be a menace to ubuntu while drinking your juice n da hood.

[Lord Illidan]

Users of this sort don't want grubby alternatives. They want their Windows programs. No amount of convincing loosens their grip on Windows programs. Change is hard.. ut has to happen gradually, while on Windows.. I remember myself first using Firefox, then I started playing with OOffice and GIMP and Thunderbird, then I jumped to Linux.


I feel i need to remind ppl that I used Ubuntu for 1 hole hour :smile: with plenty of wishful thinking and open mind. I sincerely wanted to dump Windows and prepared myself for some degree of sacrifice. I know too well what Windows problems are. However Linux has biggest problems than Windows. And it’s not because of market shares, money or experience. I expected too much. That’s all.


1 hour is not enough, sry. In one hour, I'd barely had time to install Windows, install all my drivers, and download what I need to use it. Try Ubuntu well for at least a week, then we are talking. Users who give up at the first hint of a problem have problems themselves, imho. I remember a time when Linux was much harder, now it has become as easy as Windows. Give open source a chance.

And, yes, don't expect too much.

I am a graphic artist / professional, working for years in graphic arts industry, very familiar with many standards! So my first concerns were to find the professional tools for my work: equivalents for Photoshop / Illustrator & Corel Family (Draw & Painter)!
I found GIMP & INKSCAPE as best quoted! Great I said! I downloaded Windows versions of both, installed them! …

OMG… when I saw GIMP I just got scared & uninstalled it!!!
OMG… when I saw INKSCAPE … same!

This applications are SCARY JOKES !!! I’m sorry to say this! But are way too far from reality…

Same thing here, you just glanced at GIMP and uninstalled it? WTF? So you don't even try and use it? Well, good luck to you...

If you want a cheap windows alternative, then pirate windows...yes, I am telling you to do so, it is illegal, but it might suit you more. It comes with all the problems that Windows has, but God knows, you are so experienced that you can solve them immediately.

[Henry Rayker]

ayisu:

I stand corrected. I know it's not an absolute clone, but I think the absence of a couple of features hardly makes it a joke of an application.

alinioanovici: I believe the reason ayisu believes you have a lack of credibility is due to the fact that you believe market share has nothing to do with the problems you listed.

I will list your problems explicitly (as I read them) and want to be corrected/added to, if I miss something or mess something up.

1) the default color (but you mentioned it can easily be rectified by the user)
2) hardware isn't detected correctly out of the box
3) configuration files as opposed to 100% GUI configuration

1 and 3 are matter of opinion. I actually agreed with 3 at first, but I like the files better now. I hope Linux NEVER goes away from them. I don't care if they expand the GUI front-end that they have now, but I want direct file editing.

2 is a matter of money/market share. Because Linux has such a small marketshare in the desktop, hardware manufacturers don't care if their hardware actually works with linux. Additionally, they don't care who they piss off when they only release binary drivers (we are talking about 1% of the market...you can't please everyone). If we constituted a larger market share (it'd probably help if we all had a common driver injection mechanism... .deb or rpm or something across all distros) we would start to see more results. That we have any open sourced drivers at all is amazing to me.

[mdsmedia]

I installed Ubuntu almost exactly a year ago. Because of what Windows seemed to be doing to my then 6 month old notebook.

I wouldn't call myself a power user....any survey which asks I call myself "intermediate", but now I'm starting to wonder if maybe I AM a power user, because for all its quirks and differences, I love Ubuntu and Linux. And I still hate Windows.

I've been using Windows since the days of DOS. I remember reading about OS/2 thinking how wonderful it would be to have this multitasking OS when I was battling with batch files and command line. I remember when Windows brought out '95 and I struggled to get used to the differences from 3.1.

I came to Ubuntu with an open mind. I knew it "WASN'T WINDOWS". I didn't expect to be able to run Windows-based programs in Linux. I looked for alternatives from the get-go and discovered Wine. I haven't spent much time with Wine because it's a bit "greek" to me (no greek isn't my first language :) ).

The OP says he came in with an open mind....and used Ubuntu for "ONE WHOLE HOUR" and in that hour he managed to get his first problem solved by editing a config file. Other than that he had little success trying to run several Windows based programs. An OPEN MIND???

[Lord Illidan]

1) the default color (but you mentioned it can easily be rectified by the user)
2) hardware isn't detected correctly out of the box
3) configuration files as opposed to 100% GUI configuration

1 and 3 are matter of opinion. I actually agreed with 3 at first, but I like the files better now. I hope Linux NEVER goes away from them. I don't care if they expand the GUI front-end that they have now, but I want direct file editing.

2 is a matter of money/market share. Because Linux has such a small marketshare in the desktop, hardware manufacturers don't care if their hardware actually works with linux. Additionally, they don't care who they piss off when they only release binary drivers (we are talking about 1% of the market...you can't please everyone). If we constituted a larger market share (it'd probably help if we all had a common driver injection mechanism... .deb or rpm or something across all distros) we would start to see more results. That we have any open sourced drivers at all is amazing to me.

1. The colour is there because Mark Shuttleworth and his team want it to be so. It differentiates Ubuntu from the other Gnome desktops, and personally, I like it, and so do many others. If the OP wants a different default colour, he is free to use SUSE, Fedora, whatever. He could even use Kubuntu, Blubuntu or Xubuntu. Or else, just download something from Gnomelook. As such, it makes no sense whatsoever to deride an OS for the theme colour...as Windows XP's fisher price theme is no godsend neither.

2. This depends a lot on the hardware. My hardware has been correctly detected for quite some time in Ubuntu..while in some other distros it might not work. So a swap and change might be in order..get another distro, etc.

Also, as per device manufacturers, the situation is slowly improving, but yes, it is a vicious circle. Linux needs more market share, but needs better device drivers to improve its market share, which need better market share in order to be produced. And it is most often the funky little gadgets which give the most problems, like webcams etc. Sometimes it is the graphics card.

As for driver injection mechanism, .deb and .rpm are just packaging systems, the manufacturer just releases the binary file, the distro takes care of the packaging.

3. I'd like both, if possible. Text based config files are great for recovering a system from the terminal or even from a live cd..while it is nice to have a GUI frontend to manage, too. I hope that in future, dynamic websites could take care of this, or Elektra.

[Lord Illidan]

I came to Ubuntu with an open mind. I knew it "WASN'T WINDOWS". I didn't expect to be able to run Windows-based programs in Linux. I looked for alternatives from the get-go and discovered Wine. I haven't spent much time with Wine because it's a bit "greek" to me (no greek isn't my first language :) ).

The OP says he came in with an open mind....and used Ubuntu for "ONE WHOLE HOUR" and in that hour he managed to get his first problem solved by editing a config file. Other than that he had little success trying to run several Windows based programs. An OPEN MIND???

Exactly. From the definition of openminded : Having or showing receptiveness to new and different ideas or the opinions of others.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/open-minded

The OP is demonstrating EXACTLY the opposite. If he was openminded he would have tried to run the open source programs, some of which beat their windows counterpart by miles (Amarok, Firefox). If he was openminded he would have spent at least a day, not 1 hour. It is a whole new OS, not a fancy skin, some problems are to be expected. it is a credit to the OP that he managed to solve it, but a discredit that he gave up so quickly.

[varvar]

Gimp isn't as pretty as Photoshop, but I've found it to be no more intimidating (from a new user's POV) The problem you have, varvar, is that it doesn't look like PS, so you got scared...(that's what I could pull from what you said, at least).

If someone got started initially using Gimp, then looked at PS, they would have a reaction similar to yours.

The look is the smallest problem! It’s all about functionality! GIMP is far from being a professional app! Is like a software for… how to say it… enthusiasts(!) bu not Professionals… is an equivalent for Photoshop Elements! Not Photoshop CS !

use what makes you happy. Flame us on their forums.

Sorry, I realy want & need PRO apps on Linux! Saying that GIMP & INKSCAPE are far from PRO status, underlines the fact that a lot of work is to do!

NEXT… The big problem is the psychological base of any design approach! A designer have to look first at the psychological profile of the target market! UBUNTU wants to be for human beings! Well then I tell u that till now the most human OS is MacOS ! as user-friendly quality! HUMANS want simple things, humans want “that machine feeling” to disappear! They don’t want to see what happens behind!

NOW on the OS market competition is = 0 ! Apple is neutral or even play together with the Devil as they implemented Intel CPSs but they blocked MacOS to work on other x86 desktops! The only alternative is to build a competition from Linux, & I think Ubuntu is “on the wave”. The PRO software industry don build apps for Linux exactly because don want to support Linux! MAKE UBUNTU USERFRIENDLY learning from Apple’s experience, & grow Pro Apps to give a sense for his existence !

This is not flame, this is just an advise from somebody with marketing experience!
Why? Because the world need this good UBUNTU!

[Brunellus]

The look is the smallest problem! It’s all about functionality! GIMP is far from being a professional app! Is like a software for… how to say it… enthusiasts(!) bu not Professionals… is an equivalent for Photoshop Elements! Not Photoshop CS !!!



Sorry, I realy want & need PRO apps on Linux! Saying that GIMP & INKSCAPE are far from PRO status, underlines the fact that a lot of work is to do!

NEXT… The big problem is the psychological base of any design approach! A designer have to look first at the psychological profile of the target market! UBUNTU wants to be for human beings! Well then I tell u that till now the most human OS is MacOS !!! as user-friendly quality! HUMANS want simple things, humans want “that machine feeling” to disappear! They don’t want to see what happens behind!

NOW on the OS market competition is = 0 !!! Apple is neutral or even play together with the Devil as they implemented Intel CPSs but they blocked MacOS to work on other x86 desktops! The only alternative is to build a competition from Linux, & I think Ubuntu is “on the wave”. The PRO software industry don build apps for Linux exactly because don want to support Linux! MAKE UBUNTU USERFRIENDLY learning from Apple’s experience, & grow Pro Apps to give a sense for his existence !!!

This is not flame, this is just an advise from somebody with marketing experience!
Why? Because the world need this good UBUNTU!

then you either

1) Pay for the development of the apps you want

or

2) develop the apps you want

or

3) use the apps you want.

If 3) means that you must use non-free apps on non-free platforms, well, that's life. You need to make a living as a professional: if you need pre-press CMYK, the GIMP is *not* going to do it for you.

Otherwise, keep your street-corner preaching about psychological profiling to an appropriate street corner and let the rest of us get on with using the software of our choice.

[Artificial Intelligence]

If you want some pro paint application and want to pay $32 (and close source) you can get Pixel 32. The demo sux, but the real version is quiet good. Though it's still in the beta phase, but very promissing.

[Lord Illidan]

The look is the smallest problem! It’s all about functionality! GIMP is far from being a professional app! Is like a software for… how to say it… enthusiasts(!) bu not Professionals… is an equivalent for Photoshop Elements! Not Photoshop CS !!!



Sorry, I realy want & need PRO apps on Linux! Saying that GIMP & INKSCAPE are far from PRO status, underlines the fact that a lot of work is to do!

NEXT… The big problem is the psychological base of any design approach! A designer have to look first at the psychological profile of the target market! UBUNTU wants to be for human beings! Well then I tell u that till now the most human OS is MacOS !!! as user-friendly quality! HUMANS want simple things, humans want “that machine feeling” to disappear! They don’t want to see what happens behind!

NOW on the OS market competition is = 0 !!! Apple is neutral or even play together with the Devil as they implemented Intel CPSs but they blocked MacOS to work on other x86 desktops! The only alternative is to build a competition from Linux, & I think Ubuntu is “on the wave”. The PRO software industry don build apps for Linux exactly because don want to support Linux! MAKE UBUNTU USERFRIENDLY learning from Apple’s experience, & grow Pro Apps to give a sense for his existence !!!

This is not flame, this is just an advise from somebody with marketing experience!
Why? Because the world need this good UBUNTU!


Calm down. The GIMP is not on the level of Photoshop CS, I agree. Personally, i don't use either of them because I don't do graphics work But if you are so passionate, stop whining, and do something to help. It's better to light a candle than curse the dark. The PRO Software industry doesn't support linux because of market share...and also because of it's image..however, it can all change in the next few years.

[aysiu]

This thread actually serving to improve Ubuntu = wishful thinking

Donations, code contributions, documentation, and bug reports serving to improve Ubuntu = practical thinking

[Lord Illidan]

This thread actually serving to improve Ubuntu = wishful thinking

Donations, code contributions, documentation, and bug reports serving to improve Ubuntu = practical thinking

finally, something I agree with!:D

[Henry Rayker]

The look is the smallest problem! It’s all about functionality! GIMP is far from being a professional app! Is like a software for… how to say it… enthusiasts(!) bu not Professionals… is an equivalent for Photoshop Elements! Not Photoshop CS !



Sorry, I realy want & need PRO apps on Linux! Saying that GIMP & INKSCAPE are far from PRO status, underlines the fact that a lot of work is to do!

NEXT… The big problem is the psychological base of any design approach! A designer have to look first at the psychological profile of the target market! UBUNTU wants to be for human beings! Well then I tell u that till now the most human OS is MacOS ! as user-friendly quality! HUMANS want simple things, humans want “that machine feeling” to disappear! They don’t want to see what happens behind!

NOW on the OS market competition is = 0 ! Apple is neutral or even play together with the Devil as they implemented Intel CPSs but they blocked MacOS to work on other x86 desktops! The only alternative is to build a competition from Linux, & I think Ubuntu is “on the wave”. The PRO software industry don build apps for Linux exactly because don want to support Linux! MAKE UBUNTU USERFRIENDLY learning from Apple’s experience, & grow Pro Apps to give a sense for his existence !

This is not flame, this is just an advise from somebody with marketing experience!
Why? Because the world need this good UBUNTU!


First, I think Ubuntu IS user friendly. My girlfriend feels the same way. Every person I've actually come into contact with who has given it a reasonable shot has felt that it was user friendly.

As for these "PRO" apps, I want to know what makes one application professional and one not so much. I don't use PS or Gimp very often, so I'm not terribly aware of the differences between them. CMYK what-have-you is the only feature I know of, for sure, that is lacking. If you want to be constructive, explain what makes an application professional and what doesn't.

For the record, I find OSX to have a machine-like quality.

[Lord Illidan]

As for these "PRO" apps, I want to know what makes one application professional and one not so much. I don't use PS or Gimp very often, so I'm not terribly aware of the differences between them. CMYK what-have-you is the only feature I know of, for sure, that is lacking. If you want to be constructive, explain what makes an application professional and what doesn't.

For the record, I find OSX to have a machine-like quality.

Features and such differentiate between Pro apps and non-pro. I've seen CS2 in action, and I respect it's capabilities...GIMP has some way to go, but remember that it does not have a fraction of the resources that Adobe has.
CMYK is a very important feature, although a plugin can now take care of it.

[BLTicklemonster]

It was all just a dream. A “Linux for human beings” has not yet arrived. The sad part is that I don’t see it coming any time soon :(



We monsters get it working fine. I haven't booted to xp since oct 2.

Linux for Monsters has arrived!!!

Okay, I just read a little more, and it sounds to me like the dude just didn't like what he saw, therefore Ubuntu isn't ready for the desktop. Therefore, we all need to return our disks and uninstall until he gives the go ahead. I expect all this to be done by morning.

](*,)

[cunawarit]

I feel i need to remind ppl that I used Ubuntu for 1 hole hour :) with plenty of wishful thinking and open mind.

OK, before I started using Linux regularly I had the following experience:
1) I had used Linux on occasion several times.
2) I had also tried Fedora for a while.
3) As well as a SUN workstation in the mid 90s, I think I can count that as experience too.

How did I approach me taking up Linux for home? I first read a Linux book from cover to cover. Then I tried several distributions, I tried Damn Small Linux, Knoppix, Ubuntu, Puppy, and Debian.

I eventually settled for Debian after reading lots about it on the Debian site, after got it running nicely on my old Pentium II 300. Then I got a second machine on Ebay, a Celeron 700 with half a GB or RAM and installed Debian on that.

Because my starter machine was very old and slow I was using fluxbox to start with, I had to learn how to mount my USB drive and used the shell plenty. I have been using Debian for several hours daily, and every day I learn a little bit more.

Had I just used Fedora for an hour and not bothered to sit down and learn, I would too have concluded that Linux sucks as a desktop. You didn't learn to use Windows in a day, why do you think you can learn to use Ubuntu in an hour?

[varvar]

then you either

1) Pay for the development of the apps you want

or

2) develop the apps you want

or

3) use the apps you want.

If 3) means that you must use non-free apps on non-free platforms, well, that's life. You need to make a living as a professional: if you need pre-press CMYK, the GIMP is *not* going to do it for you.

Otherwise, keep your street-corner preaching about psychological profiling to an appropriate street corner and let the rest of us get on with using the software of our choice.

I don’t get something, somebody underlines some problems, and u pick first rock hunting the speaker! This is far from I expected from the Ubuntu community! I always use any piece of information to improve my works!

As supporting the Ubuntu Community:

1. I live in a country where unfortunately is hard to live, so if I want now to pay, I can’t!
2. I’m not developer, so I can’t do the work!
3. I use the apps I’m forced by the market to use !!! not what I like! I appreciate PS for it’s achievements, but anytime I’m ready to turn my working environment to a Linux based one!

What I say here is something like:
“Hey ppl, here on earth, we are some people who need u, need u to make a great job! Need u to save us from corporatist hypocrisy!” As the American constitution starts with “We the people…” (something forgotten by America’s governors)…

NOW we the people speak! The fact that I invest time speaking here: that means that I care about what’s going on! Pushing away people who think and come with ideas is just “u working against u”

The biggest problem globally is the fact that Windows is one of the tools for tacking-over our lives. If u don’t move who will ???

:confused:

[aysiu]

Here's a fun little read.

It's an essay I wrote back in November 2004 declaring Linux not ready for the desktop. Then I responded to myself almost a year later. Original thoughts in plain type; new thoughts in bold.

http://www.psychocats.net/essays/linuxvwindows

[Lord Illidan]

I don’t get something, somebody underlines some problems, and u pick first rock hunting the speaker! This is far from I expected from the Ubuntu community! I always use any piece of information to improve my works!

As supporting the Ubuntu Community:

1. I live in a country where unfortunately is hard to live, so if I want now to pay, I can’t!
2. I’m not developer, so I can’t do the work!
3. I use the apps I’m forced by the market to use !!! not what I like! I appreciate PS for it’s achievements, but anytime I’m ready to turn my working environment to a Linux based one!

What I say here is something like:
“Hey ppl, here on earth, we are some people who need u, need u to make a great job! Need u to save us from corporatist hypocrisy!” As the American constitution starts with “We the people…” (something forgotten by America’s governors)…

NOW we the people speak! The fact that I invest time speaking here: that means that I care about what’s going on! Pushing away people who think and come with ideas is just “u working against u”

The biggest problem globally is the fact that Windows is one of the tools for tacking-over our lives. If u don’t move who will ???

:confused:

The thing is, it's not just you speaking up, varvar... thousands of people have similar issues...but the GIMP/Inkscape etc.. developers are not gods, they are mortals, and with little resources. They are trying to do the best they can. So, basically, until then, ease off the pressure and let them do their job.

[DoctorMO]

*pant* *pant* *wheeze* Jeeze guys give a dislexic a break! you've been posting faster than I can read!

Wishful Thinking

Only stupid people wish, the smart ones will do something about it.

Sorry, I realy want & need PRO apps on Linux! Saying that GIMP & INKSCAPE are far from PRO status, underlines the fact that a lot of work is to do!

Have a read of The gimp and inkscapes home pages; where the hell on there does it say that they are aiming for the PRO market? nowhere!

As for all you whiners; You don't do anything about the state of modern computing. no complaining even making valid critism doesn't count. we want to see results not words. (especialy when you post about the problems to a USERS forum instead of a developers list as your suposed to, so you might as well be talking to the sheep about the wolf anyway)

[varvar]

Leave Gimp & Inkscape, is the overall problem I speak about!

[Lord Illidan]

We monsters get it working fine. I haven't booted to xp since oct 2.

Linux for Monsters has arrived!!!

Okay, I just read a little more, and it sounds to me like the dude just didn't like what he saw, therefore Ubuntu isn't ready for the desktop. Therefore, we all need to return our disks and uninstall until he gives the go ahead. I expect all this to be done by morning.

](*,)

Yes, sir...

[aysiu]

The thing is, it's not just you speaking up, varvar... thousands of people have similar issues...but the GIMP/Inkscape etc.. developers are not gods, they are mortals, and with little resources. They are trying to do the best they can. So, basically, until then, ease off the pressure and let them do their job. You don't have to ease the pressure off, but donating some money might help.

[varvar]

You don't have to ease the pressure off, but donating some money might help.

When I can I'll donate, till then:
JUST LOOK AT THIS:

Vista (http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvista/)
Mac OS X (http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/index.html)
Ubuntu (http://www.ubuntu.com)

Compare! Do U see the difference? Well I think I can help in this area!

[raul_]

I still think he should get a refund for that...he got ripped off!!

[aysiu]

I'm not sure what you mean. Are you going to redesign Ubuntu's website or something?

I don't think they're looking for a web designer right now.
http://www.ubuntu.com/employment

[varvar]

I'm not sure what you mean. Are you going to redesign Ubuntu's website or something?

I don't think they're looking for a web designer right now.
http://www.ubuntu.com/employment

LOL! I don need employment! I said I can help! Help means donation! I can help improveing Ubuntu website!

[DoctorMO]

it is still volenteer work right?

Perhaps we could convince Linus to take back linux.org (it _is_ his trade mark after all) and design something really nice for the community there?

[aysiu]

Perhaps we could convince Linus to take back linux.org (it _is_ his trade mark after all) and design something really nice for the community there? Interesting thread related to that: Is linux.org hurting linux? (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=251025&highlight=linux.org+hurting)

[AlphaMack]

And here is my contribution to this thread if it hasn't been posted already:

Linux is NOT Windows (http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm)

[Ludwin]

The simple fact that this slogan requires so many explanations suggests that it would be better to change it. Just say "Easy Linux for everyone", for instance.

But why must there be a slogan? On http://www.slackware.com/ , you'll read: "The slackwqare Linux project." Isn't that enough?

[Esben Kramer]

I'm a little torn on this matter. I agree, that Ubuntu has some downsides to the normal user. There really SHOULD be a GUI for easy configuring the Xorg, because that is one of the things that new users need first. I never had any problems with hardware, because it seems that everything was fully supported - very nice! I used to have no hassle installing Windows, untill I had to do it after trying Ubuntu. I almost exploded.

I installed Kubuntu on my neighbours labtop, and got it running with minimal effort. She doesn't know ANYTHING about computers. In her own words she "never really used one". Go figure. Well, she never had any problems with it, and still uses it happily, so don't tell me that (K)Ubuntu isn't ready for normal users, because they don't come more normal than her.

Granted, I had to set it up for her, but the only thing I really did, was run Automatix.

[janbockaert]

As for all you whiners; You don't do anything about the state of modern computing. no complaining even making valid critism doesn't count. we want to see results not words. (especialy when you post about the problems to a USERS forum instead of a developers list as your suposed to, so you might as well be talking to the sheep about the wolf anyway)

This is not the way to react to people who want to learn about linux. I think the problems they "whine" about, are very tipical for new linux users; I 've been whining myself about stupid things like no itunes on linux, no 'windows-style' installers, use of the comandline etc. it takes some time to understand that the linux -way can be supperior to the way you have been computing all your life;

The problem with this thread, is that there are two types of linux users; You have the traditional linux-user: the it-pro, who needs/wants an operating system he can tweek himself. And than there is te 'early adopter' who got frustrated or bored with his windows, and is looking for a better alternative. Both have little to do with each other, and the second type of users (like me, and the guy who started this post) can be very frustrating for the linux-pro's.

They should'nt get frustrated. I think it is a very good sign there are a lot of stupid threads from people who don't understand the ins and outs of linux. It is proof that linux has grown outside the tech labs. And a lot of 'human beings' are starting to pay attention to this MS-alternative. People say the year of desktop linux will never happen. But if you see the pile of non techs looking for an win xp alternative, i guess, the decade of desktop-linux has already begun.

So instead of getting frustrated. Stay polite, and show them where they are wrong. Tell them to be patient and ask them to give linux another change. More users means more marketshare, and more market share means more (hardware) support, what could mean more users...

[mrgnash]

I'm sick of posts like this. Why do people interpret 'Linux for human beings' as being 'Linux for Windows users'? Why do they consider an advertising slogan to be a sufficient demonstration of Ubuntu's minimal learning curve during OS migration?

Before partitioning their hard-drive, hell, even before burning an .iso, would it kill them to do a little research and read a few distro reviews? If they did, they would probably realize that if they want a desktop environment that is similar to Windows they'd be better off with something like Lin/Freespire.

However, expecting all your Windows applications to run under the aforementioned distros, especially in a 'next next next' fashion, is still outrageous. Firstly, if you want to use the same software you've always been using, then stick with Windows! If you're genuinely looking for a new experience, and are receptive to FLOSS philosophy and development, then Linux is for you; if not, then stick with Windows! I can't understand why people want to migrate in the first place if they're only after a duplicate experience -- is it just the Spyware you're looking to be rid of? Well, learn how to secure your system, stop visiting all those porn sites with IE, and stick with Windows!

For those of us who either choose the right distro to suit our needs/abilities, and/or don't fall into a quivering heap the first time we have to manually edit a configuration file, 'Linux for Desktop' is not 'wishful thinking' but practical reality.

[maniacmusician]

nah, the beauty of it is that it has so many explanations. It makes a great marketing device. Easy Linux for Everyone can't even compare. the slogan exists because they're good for marketing; Ubuntu intends to stomp out windows. Slackware doesn't.

Whatever the phrase means, it's very lovable. People argue about it all the time, and twist it to whine about how it doesn't work for them, but eh. for every complainer, there are a couple of linux advocates. I can live with it.

[aysiu]

I'm in more of the early adopter category, and these threads frustrate me as much as they do the IT pros. Whining doesn't get you results.

As I said before, donate money, contribute code, file bug reports, and write documentation. For more details, read What's better than whining on the forums? Making a difference. (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=78741)

[DoctorMO]

and more market share means more (hardware) support

History teaches us that the kind of support your likly to get is not the kind of support we really want. nVidia or Flash support perhaps? no we need documentation and floss implimentations.

This is not the way to react to people who want to learn about linux. I think the problems they "whine" about, are very tipical for new linux users; I 've been whining myself about stupid things like no itunes on linux, no 'windows-style' installers, use of the comandline etc. it takes some time to understand that the linux -way can be supperior to the way you have been computing all your life;

I think they come to Linux expecting a free ride, this isn't no free lunch.

[Brunellus]

nah, the beauty of it is that it has so many explanations. It makes a great marketing device. Easy Linux for Everyone can't even compare. the slogan exists because they're good for marketing; Ubuntu intends to stomp out windows. Slackware doesn't.

Whatever the phrase means, it's very lovable. People argue about it all the time, and twist it to whine about how it doesn't work for them, but eh. for every complainer, there are a couple of linux advocates. I can live with it.
I can tolerate it.

but people coming in and whining "ZOMGZ, MY COMPUTER IS B0RK3N, UBUNTU IS INHUMAN" really get on my nerves.

[janbockaert]

History teaches us that the kind of support your likly to get is not the kind of support we really want. nVidia or Flash support perhaps? no we need documentation and floss implimentations.



I think they come to Linux expecting a free ride, this isn't no free lunch.

I think there you are wrong. Linux is getting a free lunch. The time that everyone who used linux also contributed to linux is over. There is a new kind of users who are not looking for a system they can tweak, they are looking for a ms-alternative. And these days, a lot of linux distro's are better desktops than win xp.

And you should not be sad about that. With more users, you may get the support intell is giving these days. (you remember the time you couldn't use a centrino chipset - I do, that was the second time i started whining that linux wasn't ready) Or the opensourcing xara Lx is giving, or you get government demanding that their docs are saved in an open standard.

Really, the fact that linux and Ubuntu are getting more popular is a good thing.:-D

[DoctorMO]

I think there you are wrong. Linux is getting a free lunch. The time that everyone who used linux also contributed to linux is over. There is a new kind of users who are not looking for a system they can tweak, they are looking for a ms-alternative. And these days, a lot of linux distro's are better desktops than win xp.

No it isn't, people here are demanding changes; what is already in existance is null because with software the cost to repoduce is almost nothing. but demanding that I (as a programmer) be on the beck and call for their specific features, problems and request is not what FLOSS is about. if you don't like something you either roll your sleves up or open your wallet not your mouth.

[varvar]

(...) I think the problems they "whine" about, are very tipical for new linux users; I 've been whining myself about stupid things like no itunes on linux, no 'windows-style' installers, use of the comandline etc. it takes some time to understand that the linux -way can be supperior to the way you have been computing all your life;

The problem with this thread, is that there are two types of linux users; You have the traditional linux-user: the it-pro, who needs/wants an operating system he can tweek himself. And than there is te 'early adopter' who got frustrated or bored with his windows, and is looking for a better alternative. Both have little to do with each other, and the second type of users (like me, and the guy who started this post) can be very frustrating for the linux-pro's.

They should'nt get frustrated. I think it is a very good sign there are a lot of stupid threads from people who don't understand the ins and outs of linux. It is proof that linux has grown outside the tech labs. And a lot of 'human beings' are starting to pay attention to this MS-alternative. People say the year of desktop linux will never happen. But if you see the pile of non techs looking for an win xp alternative, i guess, the decade of desktop-linux has already begun.

So instead of getting frustrated. Stay polite, and show them where they are wrong. Tell them to be patient and ask them to give linux another change. More users means more marketshare, and more market share means more (hardware) support, what could mean more users...

I appreciate that finally somebody sees what all is about!
This topic is a signal to the fact that a competitive Linux demand is growing!

I don’t believe that Ubuntu’s purpose is to be an elite-reserved OS only for ITpros!

A good OS for anybody must be extremely user-friendly; a kid should handle operating, also providing full advanced usability for advanced users!
I remind about MacOS X success as user-friendly OS! Why MacOS is so beloved by its users? I believe Ubuntu must learn from there!

[maniacmusician]

meh I just ignore them. once in a while I tell them they might actually get help if they posted what they needed help with...or tell them to call canonical and pay for real tech support.

but mostly I just ignore them.

[.t.]

Woah! That was revived after a long time!

[BLTicklemonster]

Hey Varvar, check out xara if you want something that blows gimp and ink out of the water: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=183907&highlight=xara

[Brunellus]

it's an undead thread.

[janbockaert]

No it isn't, people here are demanding changes; what is already in existance is null because with software the cost to repoduce is almost nothing. but demanding that I (as a programmer) be on the beck and call for their specific features, problems and request is not what FLOSS is about. if you don't like something you either roll your sleves up or open your wallet not your mouth.

Ok, i get your point. i completely agree that it is stupid to ask for changes when you don't even want to take the time to learn to work with the programs that already exist.

The main problem is, these new users do not understand yet what oss is. They just arrive here from a windows world, and it takes time to get used to linux. My stand is, give them time to learn about linux, don't hunt them back to MS. In the long run, it is a good thing that Linux is getting picked up by 'human beings' .

I really do understand your frustration. And i really don't think (anymore) that linux should be more windowish. But i also know (so well) how frustrating it can be to make a switch from ms to linux. And i do not get upset when those switchers start asking strange/stupid questions.

[varvar]

Hey Varvar, check out xara if you want something that blows gimp and ink out of the water: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=183907&highlight=xara

I saw “what can xara Xtreme on Linux do now?” and looks interesting! Thanks!
One of the problems in this area are the compatibility issues with classic apps like Illustrator(they are working on this) & Corel, as clients demand as final products formats like AI, PSD, CDR, EPS, PDF, TIFF! I know, there are solutions for few of them, but the biggest problems are not solved! (I don want to detail this here…!) Anyway thanks again, I’ll look more after’ it!

[Brunellus]

Ok, i get your point. i completely agree that it is stupid to ask for changes when you don't even want to take the time to learn to work with the programs that already exist.

The main problem is, these new users do not understand yet what oss is. They just arrive here from a windows world, and it takes time to get used to linux. My stand is, give them time to learn about linux, don't hunt them back to MS. In the long run, it is a good thing that Linux is getting picked up by 'human beings' .

I really do understand your frustration. And i really don't think (anymore) that linux should be more windowish. But i also know (so well) how frustrating it can be to make a switch from ms to linux. And i do not get upset when those switchers start asking strange/stupid questions.
We are not in this instance upset that the OP has asked strange/stupid questions.

What is irritating is that the OP, after a mere hour's worth of experience, has returned with a set of (rather arrogant) demands about how things SHOULD be run.

There is a world of difference between asking "How do I do this?" or "I used to do things this way, how do I do this here?" and declaring "I tried to do things the old way, and they didn't work, your OS sucks!"

[varvar]

Questions:

Is MacOS windowish ? (I think no…)
Do I see command lines &/or textmode configs in MacOS? (NO)
Is MacOS UserFriendly! (YES)

How is possible ?
(Don’t tell me it’s because developers are payed...)

I tell u why/how is possible! Because they want it like this!
First step is wanting / next is brainstorming on how doing'it!

[qamelian]

Easy? Maybe for you and maybe even for me. But trust me that the average user will run scared.
No, the average user will do the same thing they do when they don't understand something in Windows: they'll ask for help from someone they expect knows the answer. This happens a lot more than some folks realize. If it didn't, I'd be unemployed.

[GameManK]

(Didn't read the thread, I'm sure I'm repeating things that were already said.)

Your screen wasn't detected correctly? File a bug: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+bugs

And I think "sudo aptitude install wine" or even using Synaptic and clicking one package is less tedious than "the next,next,next routine."

[Virogenesis]

Questions:

Is MacOS windowish ? (I think no…)
Do I see command lines &/or textmode configs in MacOS? (NO)
Is MacOS UserFriendly! (YES)

How is possible ?
(Don’t tell me it’s because developers are payed...)

I tell u why/how is possible! Because they want it like this!
First step is wanting / next is brainstorming on how doing'it!

Is mac designed for certain hardware I think so,
Can the mac os gui be changed to suit the users need if wanted to.

[janbockaert]

We are not in this instance upset that the OP has asked strange/stupid questions.

What is irritating is that the OP, after a mere hour's worth of experience, has returned with a set of (rather arrogant) demands about how things SHOULD be run.

There is a world of difference between asking "How do I do this?" or "I used to do things this way, how do I do this here?" and declaring "I tried to do things the old way, and they didn't work, your OS sucks!"

There was a time i believed linux should have installers, so you could go to a webpage, download a zip-file, unzip it, run the installer, click next, next, next, clean up your desktop, and run your programs. I really believed that that was the best way to install programs :-D

Off-course, that would be a horrible way to install programs, (or drivers). But new linux users have these stupid ideas about operating systems. Yes, they are arrogant and irritating. But all I know, is that after some months strugeling with linux, i gradually started to understand that is was MS that was doing things wrong, and that linux should NOT imitate redmond.

I do understand your frustration. But i would like you to understand that every new linux user will be dissapointed at first, that linux does not reacts the way windows does. And that it does takes time for every new linux user, to get to know his distro. I really think you have to give a windows user time to learn to know linux. Don't hunt him back to ms, if he only spend an hour with ubuntu, challange him instead to give linux another trie, and another trie.

[midwinter]

OMG… when I saw GIMP I just got scared & uninstalled it!!!
OMG… when I saw INKSCAPE … same!

This applications are SCARY JOKES !!! I’m sorry to say this! But are way too far from reality…


Out of interest, what's wrong with Inkscape? It looks and works the same as any similar app i've ever used, though no doubt it's missing some functionality you require. It's a beautifully made application though.

[mdsmedia]

Ok, i get your point. i completely agree that it is stupid to ask for changes when you don't even want to take the time to learn to work with the programs that already exist.

The main problem is, these new users do not understand yet what oss is. They just arrive here from a windows world, and it takes time to get used to linux. My stand is, give them time to learn about linux, don't hunt them back to MS. In the long run, it is a good thing that Linux is getting picked up by 'human beings' .

I really do understand your frustration. And i really don't think (anymore) that linux should be more windowish. But i also know (so well) how frustrating it can be to make a switch from ms to linux. And i do not get upset when those switchers start asking strange/stupid questions.If they'd come at it asking strange/stupid questions that would be a different matter. Jumping to the conclusion that Linux for Desktop = Wishful Thinking, after using it to try to run Windows apps for an hour, or complaining that Linux won't make it until they make Gimp as good as Photoshop, is not asking any sort of question. It's a whine about their new free OS not running the apps MADE to run on Windows.

But I do agree. Setting them straight rather than just herding them back to Windows is a much better reaction. Be the start of the learning process, not the continuation of the perception that Linux forums are not helpful.

[mdsmedia]

There was a time i believed linux should have installers, so you could go to a webpage, download a zip-file, unzip it, run the installer, click next, next, next, clean up your desktop, and run your programs. I really believed that that was the best way to install programs :-D

Off-course, that would be a horrible way to install programs, (or drivers). But new linux users have these stupid ideas about operating systems. Yes, they are arrogant and irritating. But all I know, is that after some months strugeling with linux, i gradually started to understand that is was MS that was doing things wrong, and that linux should NOT imitate redmond.

I do understand your frustration. But i would like you to understand that every new linux user will be dissapointed at first, that linux does not reacts the way windows does. And that it does takes time for every new linux user, to get to know his distro. I really think you have to give a windows user time to learn to know linux. Don't hunt him back to ms, if he only spend an hour with ubuntu, challange him instead to give linux another trie, and another trie.First, I am/was a new Linux user, and I wasn't at all disppointed. He didn't take time to get to know the distro. He told us how it should run. He didn't ask questions, he made demands. All after an hour of trying to run Windows apps in Linux.

[mrgnash]

Questions:

Is MacOS windowish ? (I think no…)
Do I see command lines &/or textmode configs in MacOS? (NO)
Is MacOS UserFriendly! (YES)

How is possible ?
(Don’t tell me it’s because developers are payed...)

I tell u why/how is possible! Because they want it like this!
First step is wanting / next is brainstorming on how doing'it!

Ah, OSX does have a CLI. After all, it is based on a modified version of BSD called 'Darwin.' (See below)

The reason that a lot of Linux distros still rely heavily on using the CLI is because there's no getting around the fact that it is far more efficient than a GUI for performing a wide array of different tasks -- and it is much easier to explain communicate solutions by reference to command input, than a GUI. However, if you prefer doing everything the point-and-click way there are distros like Freespire around.

[Opsidian]

Granted setting up a Linux system can be a pain sometimes but look what happens when you install Ubuntu, everything the "average" user needs is preinstalled. I don't have to install Office, Firefox, a instant messanger or a few other things, it's in the basic install. Why is this important to me? Well not to long ago I installed Edubuntu on 10 machines for the local non profit I volunteer at, the cost was great and besides some hardware failures not associated with the OS everything went perfect.
Now once you have a system setup I have found that Window and Mac users don't really have a issue with it all it takes is a brief introduction about it and why it is not MS or Apple. There are some hardcore people out there that don't want to accept the switch for one reason or another but most people come at it with a open mind.
If Linux isn't for you then go back to what you are comfortable with but remember that the first time you used your favorite operating system everything was foreign to you then as well. All it takes is a little time and things start making allot more sense.