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jbonll05
September 11th, 2006, 02:04 AM
quote about using IE from 1st post: "No, I use IE because mostly everyone else uses it. I need to make sure my websites function correctly in what most people use.It's not necessarily a personal decision, but a necessary one."
?Doesn't IE, Firefox, Opera, et.al. read and send HTML? I did not know that you could tell one from the other. One local ITC, website and network professional runs his website with Debian and it works well, IE is not exclude, since most people use it.
I agree with the above reply and hope you do continue to "play" with Ubuntu. I am using it because of neceM$ity.
JB; exclusive Linux user since 12/05,Ubuntu since Oct05

MrLeN
September 11th, 2006, 02:13 AM
Browsers read HTML differently. Methods that had been developed and established by Microsoft in the 90's were undermined by an evil empire called W3C. Then a heap of so called "compliant" browsers were invented, which adhered to W3C's 20/20 hindight standards -- and FireFox is a modern browser owing its functionality to that lineage.

Now, instead of W3C just accepting what Microsoft had already invented, they reinvented the wheel after the fact and labeled IE (the browser of choice, with standards used and accepted by about 90% of people at the time) as "not compliant". All this did was cause mass of confusion; and hundreds of thousands of webmasters to battle between two different sets of standards. It's a long story, but the short reply is that no -- browsers are not the same.

MrLeN

Cynical
September 11th, 2006, 02:29 AM
therefore, any OS that does not seek at least a minimum level of compatibility barely deserves the title of "Operating System"

Operating Systems are not designed to be compatible with one another...And under your logic, Linux is more deserving of the title "Operating System" than Windows is. Since at least linux has wine/crossover. There is NO way to run linux programs on windows (without emulation)


Now, instead of W3C just accepting what Microsoft had already invented, they reinvented the wheel after the fact and labeled IE (the browser of choice, with standards used and accepted by about 90% of people at the time) as "not compliant". All this did was cause mass of confusion; and hundreds of thousands of webmasters to battle between two different sets of standards. It's a long story, but the short reply is that no -- browsers are not the same.

lol I thought that was sarcasm the first time I read it. Why do you think W3C defined those standards? Maybe because not everyone thinks having a proprietary software pushing corporation defining how to surf the internet is a good idea.

You may want to read some background info on W3C before you call them an evil empire :P


In October 1994, Sir Tim Berners-Lee, inventor of the World Wide Web, left the European Organization for Nuclear Research (CERN) and founded the World Wide Web Consortium (W3C) at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology Laboratory for Computer Science (MIT/LCS) with support from the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA), which had pioneered the Internet, and the European Commission.

The consortium was created to ensure compatibility and agreement among industry members in the adoption of new standards. Prior to its creation, incompatible versions of HTML were offered by different vendors, increasing the potential for inconsistency between web pages. The consortium was created to get all those vendors to agree on a set of core principles and components which would be supported by everyone.


But anyway, all that aside. Could you state the fundamental things you cannot live without? Maybe we can help you. (You say you cannot live without IE, can you show me a website that you use which cannot be rendered properly in firefox?)

Grey
September 11th, 2006, 02:35 AM
I read through about 80% of your first post in this thread, and haven't read much else other than that. (Sorry, but it's really long, and I can anticipate the response).

I am a web developer myself, and Ubuntu is my primary dev environment. I use gedit for a text editor, and apache2/mysql for a backend. I primarily use Firefox for testing/development. My basic idea is that I write the backend easily enough in Linux, and write the initial frontend tailored for Firefox. When it comes time to fix IE bugs, I have the option of installing it in Wine, but I've never had the heart to contaminate such a wonderful OS. So I find a Windows box for IE bug fixing.

But it sounds to me like this doesn't work for you. You have a very specific set of software that you want to use, including anti-spyware, and REGISTRY CLEANERS (!). The problem (IMO) is that you want Ubuntu to BE Windows. In that case, I would suggest you continue using Windows. If it does the job for you, then why bother?

I migrated to Linux because I was sick of the constant reformats, I was sick of the instability, and I was sick of the boneheaded design decisions present in Windows. I already mostly used OSS software in Windows, so migrating for me was a piece of cake. Windows programs I really liked (Trillian, Winamp, and a few others) were replaced with rough linux equivalents, and they've really grown on me. The thing was that I didn't want a free version of Windows. I wanted Linux.

PS: Microsoft is a member of the W3C.

KoRnholio
September 11th, 2006, 02:45 AM
I'm surprised this hasn't been mentioned yet (unless I missed it) -

There's a collection of scripts called IE4Linux (http://www.tatanka.com.br/ies4linux/index-en.html) to install three different versions of IE on a Linux box, for the very purposes of testing browser compatiblity for webpages.

Furthermore, if the Linux version of HTML-Kit (not sure if its different from the Windows version), or NVU don't live up to your expectations, Bluefish and Scream are two of the other popular web scripting IDEs available for Linux. Both are in the Ubuntu repositories.

MrLeN
September 11th, 2006, 03:16 AM
Cynical,


Operating Systems are not designed to be compatible with one another...And under your logic, Linux is more deserving of the title "Operating System" than Windows is. Since at least linux has wine/crossover. There is NO way to run linux programs on windows (without emulation)

Because windows already has enough of its own software, and doesn't need to. That's like saying that a lawn mower will hold a 454 (with a few brackets and stuff) but a Chevy wont move with a lawn mower engine in it. Why would you want it to?



lol I thought that was sarcasm the first time I read it. Why do you think W3C defined those standards? Maybe because not everyone thinks having a proprietary software pushing corporation defining how to surf the internet is a good idea.

While I agree that we should have web standards, I am totally against undermining already established standards that the majority of people are already using. Microsoft standards are more intelligent than W3C standards. It has become a "cleche" online to say that anyone who complains about W3C standards is just stuck on Microsoft and is unable to learn new methods. I take exception to that, because assuredly I am capable of learning -- and furthermore, I know both Microsoft and W3C standards off by heart and can code either set right off the top of my head. I am adamant that Microsoft's standards are more intelligent, and that W3C standards were created with the absolute intention to undermine standards that Microsoft had developed. Just because you invent the Internet, it doesn't mean you have first dibs on everything else that happens afterwards, and it doesn't give you a license to try and dictate how it will be used. W3C is merely a pain in the rear end in my opinion, and its standards have caused SO many headaches for developers for so many years that there should be a law. If W3C had've just accepted the standards that millions of people were already using, instead of purposefully changing them -- even to a lesser quality, I'd be all for them! I'd be MrW3C! -- But I am a mortal enemy of W3C. I have earned that -- after almost a decade of being pulled between a very small minority standard and a majority standard, and having to waste HOURS of my days catering to both -- I have every right to be annoyed, and there's no way anyone will ever convince me otherwise. None of it had to be that way. W3C should have merely listed standards that "work" -- standards that Microsoft had spend Millions developing, by "highly intelligent" programmers.


You may want to read some background info on W3C before you call them an evil empire :PBut anyway, all that aside. Could you state the fundamental things you cannot live without? Maybe we can help you. (You say you cannot live without IE, can you show me a website that you use which cannot be rendered properly in firefox?)

Just believe me. There are many W3C standards that, when established caused me to cry myself to sleep at night. Of course -- I am "multi-standarded" these days, but that's not due to a lack of nightmares. I will admit though -- that thanks to Microsoft abandoning the standards that they created first, and hundreds of thousands of web developers used for half a decade, that the standards issue is becoming more tolerable. I can also tell you the future -- As IE and FireFox standards become merged, the majority of people will still stick with Microsoft -- except hundreds of thousands of webmasters wont be crying themselves to sleep every night. What a disaster the W3C caused -- and if anyone wants to argue with me on this issue, I'll keep typing until 2020, because I KNOW the code, and I know the standards and I have daily experience for a decade, and I'd even go as far to say that there wouldn't be too many people online as well versed in standards and which belong to whom as myself.

Due to the above, I am well versed with who the W3C are and how they came about -- and I have earned the right to say everything I have stated due to countless hours of my life being affected by this (and I'll say it again) evil empire. I hate to say it, but I have to let my frustration out. There was NO need for this war. It was just senseless. Just as I see the countless hours I see people placing into Microsoft independent projects. I am certainly not a fan of Microsoft, and if some organization with the resources had the brains to realize that "compatibility" is the only way to win -- then the online world would become a better place almost overnight.

I might sound like someone who just wants to attack anyone who goes against Microsoft -- but that's not because I am a Microsoft lover. It's because it's absolutely, completely and utterly POINTLESS. FireFox is as popular as it's every going to get -- and the MYRIAD of other browsers on the FireFox lineage have all died. Even AOL's browser can't stand up to IE.. which was an attempt to try and take some of the market share, and they had a LOT of money to help, but even they failed. The ONLY way to pull down the giant is to start thinking compatibility -- any project that does not will never be more than a toy; and all the while so much talent and so many hours are being spent for nothing.

Grey,


I am a web developer myself, and Ubuntu is my primary dev environment. I use gedit for a text editor, and apache2/mysql for a backend. I primarily use Firefox for testing/development. My basic idea is that I write the backend easily enough in Linux, and write the initial frontend tailored for Firefox. When it comes time to fix IE bugs, I have the option of installing it in Wine, but I've never had the heart to contaminate such a wonderful OS. So I find a Windows box for IE bug fixing.

It amazes me that this new generation of developers call stuff that wont work in IE, "an IE Bug". Soon, I am going to create a website on this issue, and let people know the truth, because very few people understand. I must ad though, I am not for Microsoft and I am not for W3C, I am just for logic. Just the term "IE Bug", and the fact that it was stated in this thread is the fault of W3C.


But it sounds to me like this doesn't work for you. You have a very specific set of software that you want to use, including anti-spyware, and REGISTRY CLEANERS (!). The problem (IMO) is that you want Ubuntu to BE Windows. In that case, I would suggest you continue using Windows. If it does the job for you, then why bother?

I don't want Ubuntu to be Windows. What I would like is for someone to start creating Linux environments that allow the world to utilize the tens of billions of dollars worth of fantastic software that has been developed. I am NOT a fan if reinventing the wheel. I feel that cooperation and compatibility is the only way forward. The fact of the matter is that the world is full of software that no one is going to stop using, and as long as the nomadic tribes of the Internet keep trying to reinvent alternatives, none of it is ever going to be of any real use to anyone. W3C is a perfect example of that. Apple is another perfect example. FireFox has seen its glory -- what a waste of time.

MrLeN

blx_286
September 11th, 2006, 03:22 AM
Mr. Len, the subtle art of trolling is all you. You are the man.

MrLeN
September 11th, 2006, 03:28 AM
Mr. Len, the subtle art of trolling is all you. You are the man.

Don't know what you're talking about -- I am merely sharing my logical thoughts.

MrLeN

bigbearomaha
September 11th, 2006, 04:39 AM
Sorry, I entered this in this thread in error, I have reposted as a new thread. My apologies.

Big Bear

MarkSheely
September 11th, 2006, 04:52 AM
Right then,

Opposing viewpoints discussions are good and fun, but, seeing as how this is the support-for-beginners section of the forum, perhaps this discussion should be moved elsewhere...

These types of discussion, well intentioned or not, really don't belong in this part of the forum.

Iandefor
September 11th, 2006, 05:01 AM
This belongs in the Ubuntu Cafe- and has been relocated to it's new home there.

Grey
September 11th, 2006, 05:16 AM
It amazes me that this new generation of developers call stuff that wont work in IE, "an IE Bug". Soon, I am going to create a website on this issue, and let people know the truth, because very few people understand. I must ad though, I am not for Microsoft and I am not for W3C, I am just for logic. Just the term "IE Bug", and the fact that it was stated in this thread is the fault of W3C.

I'm still shaking my head upon reading that. Make no mistake here. I might be among the new generation of developers, but web programming is EASY, and I spent a year of my life doing it for a full time job and I learn fast. I know most of the W3C spec off the top of my head, and a fair amount of Microsoft's.

Microsoft is a member of the W3C, and it's expected that their browser adhere to the very specs that they helped to create. Not supporting the entire spec is entirely forgivable, and I would assume that's the argument that you are trying to project. However, it's entirely unforgivable to drop in unfinished features as being compliant with the spec. You might know that one of the cornerstones to the W3C specs is that if a browser does not support a given feature, it must gracefully fail, by not rendering the feature at all. Microsoft does NOT do this, which causes endless problems to those of us who do this for a living.

Here's a few of my favourite Microsoft bugs:

1) Exceptionally poor support for PNGs.
2) <select> boxes that are always drawn on top and may not be styled (Win2k, IE6 corporate)
3) float:left. Need I say more?
4) relative positioning.
5) IE's broken box model.

Here's a bunch more:
http://www.positioniseverything.net/explorer.html

And a couple more IE bugs:
http://www.cssplay.co.uk/layouts/fixed.html

That second link is interesting, as I found an entirely different solution on my own. I forget the exact method, as I haven't coded much for IE recently (thank god), but I embedded some JS in the CSS using an IE-only tag (evaluate?), and set the background to be a dummy picture that was set to fixed. We discovered that this crashed the browser though when using ASP.NET's feature that scrolled to the last place you were on the page when using a postback. :(

If you don't think that these are IE Bugs, you are insane. If you need clarification on my short list, let me know, and I'll try to find some samples for you. But they are buggy enough that I am forced not to use those features, even though IE claims to support them. I actually had to write a Javascript class to EMULATE a <select> box in IE. THAT is a waste of time.


I don't want Ubuntu to be Windows. What I would like is for someone to start creating Linux environments that allow the world to utilize the tens of billions of dollars worth of fantastic software that has been developed. I am NOT a fan if reinventing the wheel. I feel that cooperation and compatibility is the only way forward. The fact of the matter is that the world is full of software that no one is going to stop using, and as long as the nomadic tribes of the Internet keep trying to reinvent alternatives, none of it is ever going to be of any real use to anyone. W3C is a perfect example of that. Apple is another perfect example. FireFox has seen its glory -- what a waste of time.

By your logic, everyone should be coding in Java. Fact of the matter is that Linux and Windows have EXTREMELY different architectures. Windows is becoming more linux-like as time goes on as they realize their mistakes, but they are still nothing alike. Windows APIs are different, and their design decisions often reflect pure unadultered madness.

I mean, what you are suggesting is just insane. Even Windows XP does not run software written for Windows 3.1, and has very finicky support for Windows 9x software. I even recall one time where my roommate was completely unable to install C&C: Red Alert 2 on his WinXP box, while I was able to install it without issue on my Linux box. Word has it that compatibility is going to be further broken with Vista, and Wine might actually be more compatible with older software than Windows itself.

If even Windows cannot maintain compatibility with itself, then why do you expect Linux to? I think that Linux has done a remarkable job as it stands, in that the Windows software I MUST have, generally runs fine via Wine. And for the record, UNIX came before Windows. If anything, you should be scolding Microsoft for making such a strange OS.

cwaldbieser
September 11th, 2006, 06:12 AM
Browsers read HTML differently. Methods that had been developed and established by Microsoft in the 90's were undermined by an evil empire called W3C. Then a heap of so called "compliant" browsers were invented, which adhered to W3C's 20/20 hindight standards -- and FireFox is a modern browser owing its functionality to that lineage.

Now, instead of W3C just accepting what Microsoft had already invented, they reinvented the wheel after the fact and labeled IE (the browser of choice, with standards used and accepted by about 90% of people at the time) as "not compliant". All this did was cause mass of confusion; and hundreds of thousands of webmasters to battle between two different sets of standards. It's a long story, but the short reply is that no -- browsers are not the same.

MrLeN
I don't actually recall it going down quite like that. Also, I think it is important to note that Microsoft is actually a member of W3C: http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Member/List

It is not exactly like they had no input of their own to add to the standards.

I work in a Windows shop that makes web-based software for my day job. We all used to have workstation class operating systems (W2k, W2k3, etc.), but with the advent of cheap virtualization, our IT staff is rolling out WinXP PCs with images for whatever machines we need to test on. virtualization and emulation (e.g. Cygwin) seem to be a popular way for a lot of Windows shops to get their feet wet in the *NIX world.

At the end of the day, though, if your buisness depends on targeting a particular OS, you obviously need to have that OS. Ubuntu is not meant to be a migration path away from Windows-- it is an alternative. There are certain kinds of data you can take with you-- documents, images, multimedia, especially formats with open standards. There are also lots of things you can't take with you-- applications that target a single OS API, proprietary data formats for those apps, etc. These are fairly reasonable expectations.

I would suggest that if your primary workstation for your business is overtaxed, it may be worth investing in additional hardware. I am not sure what the exact nature of your problems are since I was not able to glean exactly what kinds of tasks your workstation is performing.

Kindred
September 11th, 2006, 06:24 AM
Amusing thread, well done MrLeN. If, by small chance this is a serious thread, I would really recommend that you stay with XP and stop looking at our toy OS as a possible alternative. You would only end up disappointed.

aysiu
September 11th, 2006, 06:26 AM
I don't understand what the big deal is.

You say you need Windows for your business.

You also say you have a spare PC to learn Ubuntu on.

What's the problem?

DoctorMO
September 11th, 2006, 10:34 AM
Hey you!

Data formats are extreamly important and laying down your freedom to the de-facto standard of the time just because it's used by exerybody is _NOT_ the way of good business.

Why create W3C HTML? Because we don't want undocumented de-facto standard comming out of Microsoft with the aim to prevent compatability.

Why create PNG when GIF was already so widely used? because GIFs patents didn't run out until 2001 (when linux got gif support built in) because GIF doesn't support alpha masks and luminosity control.

Why spend all that time creating ODF when Microsoft DOC/XLS/PPT is used by all and sundry? because some people don't like their data to be controled by one company.

Why create Ogg Vorbis when MP3 has complete control? The mpeg3 format is _not_ free to use in the USA, I can use it in Europe because software patents arn't allowed. but thats hardly fair on Americans that everybody is _forcing_ them to use a format which isn't free.

What about Ogg Theora? isn't WMV, RM or QT good enough? hell no! it's not free, it's not a standard and it isn't good enough.

I want to see free de-jour standard everywhere; Down with de-facto propritory standards of all kinds, regardless of quality. trying to control markets with content formating is just immoral and I won't support it.

linuxa
September 11th, 2006, 10:55 AM
Okey dokey pig in a pokey...

On a different laptop, Hi-Grade Notino R5400, 40GB Drive, Savage video, ethernet card and wireless, about 3-4 years old??

Ubuntu LiveCD:

Hung at bootup saying loading vesa

Ubuntu Alternate CD:

Hung at install packages 86%

Kubuntu Alternate CD:

Immediate install resulting in functional OS.


Weird, considering that the only difference between the two is the desktop component. Kernel and driver detection should be identical. Anyone else thinks that Ubuntu softened his laptop for Kubuntu? Just kidding :D



Problems encountered:

Unable to configure wireless adaptor as Kubuntu cannot detect it? The option K Menu -> Internet -> Wireless Assistant automatically closes as no adaptor detected.

Now I don't know for sure if it is a harware failure issue or not as this laptop has not been used for some time and for some reason I am unable to access the BIOS as when I press DEL to enter setup it simply continues to boot ignoring the keystroke!

Mmmmmmm.................?

This goes back to the various mentions of driver support lacking for Linux, you are going to need to use something like:

ndiswrapper (http://ndiswrapper.sourceforge.net/)

It's never easy starting out, but hang in there man. I'm of similar background to you, and with Linux I eventually found a sense of simply "right" in the way the Operating Sytem works, and the freedom that it gives me (though I still keep Windows around for Games and the unforeseen contingencies).

Good luck.

ago
September 11th, 2006, 11:54 AM
Hung at install packages 86%

Try burning the ISO at low speed and/or with other media.

Tomosaur
September 11th, 2006, 02:54 PM
I too take exception to MrLen's W3C bashing. The simple fact of the matter is this: IE is broken. You can huff and puff all day long about how many people use it, but you have to understand that the reason for this is Microsofts FUD tactics, and Netscape's spectacular failure at providing a good alternative to IE. IE has caused me no end of pain in my short dabblings with web-design. I'm not a web-designer, and I admit to not knowing all of the standards inside out, but when I come across a compatibility issue, I take a look at the W3C standard, and then Microsoft's 'standard'. Guess which one looks more like a hack than a sensible piece of code? I don't even design for the web much at all. At most, my dabblings in HTML, CSS, Javascript, SQL etc are just experiments. I expect things to break, that is par for the course, but I do not expect a browser to point-blank refuse to work, and I'm sick of having to code if-statements and hacks just to get something working in IE, a browser I don't even use - ever. I hate the little yellow drop down thing from SP2, and I hate the refusal to render images properly. I hate the endless security alerts which only exist because Windows and IE are about as solid as a sieve, and I hate the 'hotfixes'. 'Most people use it' is not an excuse for complying to dodgy standards and forcing yourself to write hackish code. 'Most people' don't know **** about web-design, coding, how a website works. All they know is that the browser they got with their computer lets them get online. When they come across a website that doesn't work, it's deemed to be the fault of the designer. Well, it's not really, is it? Isn't it because Microsoft have time and again released broken software and then relied on the gullibility of it's customers to just accept that 'that's how the internet works'? I can understand your frustration at the W3C, but I don't think it is worse than Microsoft's own standards. The W3C standards allow for a greater choice of which product to use, while Microsoft's standards let you use....wait...IE. No thankee sir.

Brunellus
September 11th, 2006, 02:59 PM
let's summarize:

1) User wants Windows apps.

2) User refuses to consider migration to Linux alternatives and/or replacements.

RECOMMENDATION

User should stay with Windows. Do what you can, or suffer as you must.

3rdalbum
September 11th, 2006, 04:10 PM
Just run Ubuntu on that second computer of yours. If you want Internet Explorer 6 so you can test out websites, there's a script available that installs it into WINE. It can also install IE 5.5 and IE 5 at the same time, as it's designed specifically for your purpose.

As you're already a techincal person, you will probably like Ubuntu, as long as you give its programs a chance.

ago
September 11th, 2006, 04:44 PM
let's summarize:

1) User wants Windows apps.

2) User refuses to consider migration to Linux alternatives and/or replacements.

RECOMMENDATION

User should stay with Windows. Do what you can, or suffer as you must.

In fact it is slightly more annoying

1) User asks for long list of equivalent products
2) Ubuntuers reply with pretty exhaustive list covering him up fairly well, including IE on Linux
3) User says windows is better for him, before even trying any of the suggestions

I think at the very least he should try Linux on the other machine, experiment with suggested programs for a little bit, then complain. And I do not even want to comment on the confused post about defacto-standards vs open-standards.

maniacmusician
September 11th, 2006, 05:20 PM
lol this has grown to be quite an amusing thread.

like aysiu said, why're we still bickering? he decided he was going to try ubuntu on his second pc, so let's let him be and let him have his experience of linux, and he'll decide what to do next.

it's not like he said he wasn't going to try linux.

/end arguments

mostwanted
September 11th, 2006, 07:54 PM
I would like to elaborate a little on the W3C vs. MS side topic.

The W3C (or at least the HTML standards themselves) existed right from the beginning. It wasn't MS who started creating proprietary extensions to HTML, it was Netscape. Back then, Netscape was the main browser, not IE. The CSS and HTML 4 standards were an attempt to reunite the Netscape and IE rendering and the two browsers did try live up to the standards, in fact IE probably had the best support for contemporary web standards of any browser back then.

Then IE got the majority marketshare and after Microsoft released IE 5, they ceased to develop their rendering engine (even IE 6 had no rendering engine updates, it has only recently been resumed in IE 7). This is why IE has so abysmal support for the "latest" standards and media (like PNG images), it's not really because of an evil intent to lock in people to proprietary MS standards (even though they do exist!).

I test my sites in IE 6 in Linux, using the IEs4Linux script which installs IE 6 using WINE.

maniacmusician
September 11th, 2006, 08:09 PM
just wondering, is a script in the making to install IE7? I don't use it personally, but i know a lot of people that love their IE.

on a super side note, i just converted my mother to kubuntu. But i told her IE didn't exist in linux, haha...so she's using firefox and/or konqueror. and she likes them both a lot.

B0rsuk
September 11th, 2006, 08:12 PM
My Conclusion of Ubuntu as a User Candidate

No, I use IE because mostly everyone else uses it. I need to make sure my websites function correctly in what most people use. It's not necessarily a personal decision, but a necessary one.


I stopped reading at that point.

MrLeN
September 11th, 2006, 08:30 PM
Ok, I should have just kept with the topic, instead of also adding my own viewpoints on unrelated things, because all that did was upset everyone and cause you to think I am complaining about Ubuntu -- which I am not. I am merely trying to ascertain what the advantages are. No point in getting upset if I point out things that I will miss. If you do that to all your interested parties, they'll just run off. But, I accept responsibility for the thread turning on it's side for offering my opinions -- sorry. I'll try to just stick with questions.

So -- back to what I came here for (before this thread turns into a beating -- I had to duck several times while going through the latest responses - heh) -- I am in the process of trying to install Ubuntu. I said from the start that I am interested and that I am going to give it a go. I do realize however, that it is not possible for me to use it full time, and there's no malice intended in stating that.

If I weren't interested, I wouldn't be here typing. I am currently having a bit of trouble trying to take the burner out of my old computer and installing it into this one, so that I can burn the iso. However, as soon as I have done that -- I'll likely come back here asking questions.

MrLeN

maniacmusician
September 11th, 2006, 08:33 PM
Ok, I should have just kept with the topic, instead of also adding my own viewpoints on unrelated things, because all that did was upset everyone and cause you to think I am complaining about Ubuntu -- which I am not. I am merely trying to ascertain what the advantages are. No point in getting upset if I point out things that I will miss. If you do that to all your interested parties, they'll just run off. But, I accept responsibility for the thread turning on it's side for offering my opinion -- sorry. I'll try to just stick with questions.

So -- back to what I came here for (before this threat turns into a beating -- I had to duck several times while going through the latest responses - heh) -- I am in the process of trying to install Ubuntu. I said from the start that I am interested and that I am going to give it a go. I do realize however, that it is not possible for me to use it full time, and there's no malice intended in stating that.

If I weren't interested, I wouldn't be here typing. I am currently having a bit of trouble trying to take the burner out of my old computer and installing it into this one, so that I can burn the iso. However, as soon as I have done that -- I'll likely come back here asking questions.

MrLeN
sounds like a plan. good luck with your linux installation, and we'll always be here to help you out if you get stuck somewhere

UbuntuniX
September 11th, 2006, 08:36 PM
The easiest way is just to install ubuntu and find your way around from there..

And if I understand what you mean by "search & replace" then yes, there is :)

Brunellus
September 11th, 2006, 08:45 PM
Ok, I should have just kept with the topic, instead of also adding my own viewpoints on unrelated things, because all that did was upset everyone and cause you to think I am complaining about Ubuntu -- which I am not. I am merely trying to ascertain what the advantages are. No point in getting upset if I point out things that I will miss. If you do that to all your interested parties, they'll just run off. But, I accept responsibility for the thread turning on it's side for offering my opinions -- sorry. I'll try to just stick with questions.

So -- back to what I came here for (before this thread turns into a beating -- I had to duck several times while going through the latest responses - heh) -- I am in the process of trying to install Ubuntu. I said from the start that I am interested and that I am going to give it a go. I do realize however, that it is not possible for me to use it full time, and there's no malice intended in stating that.

If I weren't interested, I wouldn't be here typing. I am currently having a bit of trouble trying to take the burner out of my old computer and installing it into this one, so that I can burn the iso. However, as soon as I have done that -- I'll likely come back here asking questions.

MrLeN
You assiduously tried to shoot down every alternative offered to you. Your reasons may be sufficient and well-founded in your own mind. You are entitled to your own opinion.

But please understand: peremptorily REFUSING to even try things that are known to work for much of the community is going to try our patience.

I wish you all the luck in the world in your new Ubuntu install. But remember: it's an Ubuntu install, and of necessity things *will* be a little different from what you're used to. If you want Windows, you'll know where to find it.

MrLeN
September 11th, 2006, 08:48 PM
Chill. I didn't refuse anything.

MrLeN

KingBahamut
September 11th, 2006, 08:59 PM
MrLeN, dont like it. Dont Use it.

Ultimately its not our job to validate your experience, but only help you improve it.

If your so hinged on using windows applications , install Qemu. Thats still quite better than running a pure windows install.

Do try to keep the bad comments to a dull roar though.

prizrak
September 11th, 2006, 09:15 PM
MrLen,

After reading this thread I honestly don't think you will like Ubuntu. You want Windows w/o the problems not a different OS. You would even hate a Mac as it is different.

There is no need for Linux to emulate Windows in order to be successful it is already getting widely adopted in countries that can't afford Windows and would rather not violate copyright laws.

On your "I can't see anyone using Ubuntu as a full time OS", you might not but it is done by many members of this forum. Up until I got a tablet Ubuntu was my only OS, unfortunately there are certain tablet specific things that Ubuntu lacks at the moment. My desktop however is running Ubuntu just fine. My old laptop was fully Ubuntu and I have more than a few friends who use Linux exclusively (not all of them techie). As aysiu put it before Linux is good for two type of users.
1) Web/e-mail/silly games, as it will not have any significant difference from Windows if someone sets it up for them.
2) IT professionals who like to and know how to learn.

Middle of the road users (or so-called Windows power users) as you seem to be won't like Linux. They have invested the time and effort into learning Windows and know quite a bit about the OS itself and the software that was made for it. They don't want to go back to knowing absolutely nothing and get frustrated when previous knowledge doesn't apply. Those are also the people who won't like Ubuntu's 6 month release cycle, which means that the software that comes with the system gets nothing but security updates.

It is good that your expectations are pretty low and that you are using a spare PC to learn instead of risking screwing up your current config. However please do not call Linux a toy OS. It is a professional grade OS that alot of enterprises use, in fact Google uses a customized Ubuntu as their desktop OS.

To whoever was talking about Ubuntu needing a Media Center type program that Windows has. Two things:
1) There is one, it is called MythTV and it is by far better than MS's current MCE 2005 R1 (I think that's the latest release).

2) Unlike MythTV there is no way to load the Media Center onto a Windows machine w/o installing XP MCE as the OS. I have tried and it is not possible.

As far as not having to look for codecs is concerned, you have no idea how much time I spent getting the damn thing to work. I even had the K-lite codec pack installed and my movies would play in WMP but the MCE interface would fail to play them. Make no mistake codecs on Windows are as much of a nightmare as they are on Linux due to the sheer number of them.

DoctorMO
September 11th, 2006, 09:19 PM
I think silver has tried our nerves a bit, appologies MrLeN.

Please try the software, get as much worth out of it as you can. I use Linux because I won't use windows. I don't care if Linux doesn't even boot up, I'd simply go with out a computer. but thats how strongly I feel about Microsoft.

Not that this should bare on you a great deal, but it should explain the attitude a bit. some people will simple say 'I don't care if it doesn't work for you, you should use it anyway to get away from _them_' me for one.

facefur
September 11th, 2006, 09:26 PM
I suppose this will add nothing new except my personal experiences. I have two computers at home, both dual boot, using Windows and Ubuntu. I work with computer systems, and do some programming but very little and of small scale.

My Windows experience started with DOS, then Win95, progressing through Win98, 98SE, and now XP Home Edition. For the most part, installing Windows is pretty straightforward. Of course, if you need to do some partitioning, as I did for dual booting, you need some minimal familiarity with the hardware/software interfaces. Most manufacturers have Windows drivers for things like printers, scanners, and specialized hardware that pretty much self-installs. Windows, at least early versions, has some software management issues, and, being the most used OS, has been the largest target of virus and trojan writers. The software available for Windows is extensive, fairly well written (although often huge), and for the most part, works. The Desktop interface and mouse-based operation suits the average non-computer-science major for personal use.

My Linux experience started about four years ago with Red Hat, moved to Mandrake, and now with Ubuntu. Early versions were plagued with a lack of drivers for basic stuff (like printers), but as development progressed, has been much more compatible with modern hardware. It took me until Ubunutu Breezy to find a working driver for my HP DJ100 printer; my Canon scanner still won't work. I'm more affected by the lack of software to replace my Windows programs. On the whole, the community has stepped up to the task, but I still have a few missing pieces. Installation, at least with Breezy and Dapper, has been easy, although the starting instructions could handle partitioning much better than they do now. Beyond that pretty critical piece of configuration, installations have been largely automatic and flawless. Once I discovered Automatix, doing the specialized upgrades is equally easy.

I'd be curious as to why the original poster has had so much difficulty with basic installation, and would be happy to lend a hand getting him past the starting point.

aysiu
September 11th, 2006, 09:28 PM
What I "want to use" is an OS that offers all the options, but doesn't attract 200,000 IDIOTS (cyber terrorists) that want to write viruses and trojans for. Also I am sick and tired of having to reinstall Windows after 6-12 months because it has become so unstable and sluggish that I literally want to set my hair on fire and punch myself in the face. Maybe such an OS will never happen; the closes things is probably Mac -- which I do sincerely admire. I think you should use a Mac. Ubuntu is not Windows without problems.

maniacmusician
September 11th, 2006, 09:31 PM
geez, just let the guy try it first, won't you?

why are we harassing him anyways? he's in the process of trying for himself, and he'll discover in due time whether its for him or not. if he's smart he'll ask lots of questions.

btw, MrLen, just out of curiosity, which flavor do you plan on using?

aysiu
September 11th, 2006, 09:35 PM
geez, just let the guy try it first, won't you?

why are we harassing him anyways? he's in the process of trying for himself, and he'll discover in due time whether its for him or not. if he's smart he'll ask lots of questions.

btw, MrLen, just out of curiosity, which flavor do you plan on using?
Trying not to waste people's time. If someone tells me outright (in real life, on the forums, wherever), "I want Windows but without the hassle. I was thinking about trying Ubuntu..." why would I say, "Go for it! Try Ubuntu!"? What a waste of time and energy only to have to say later, "Yeah, Ubuntu isn't really Windows without the hassle."

It's much better to just tell someone up front, "Don't waste your time."

maniacmusician
September 11th, 2006, 09:37 PM
Trying not to waste people's time. If someone tells me outright (in real life, on the forums, wherever), "I want Windows but without the hassle. I was thinking about trying Ubuntu..." why would I say, "Go for it! Try Ubuntu!"? What a waste of time and energy only to have to say later, "Yeah, Ubuntu isn't really Windows without the hassle."

It's much better to just tell someone up front, "Don't waste your time."
but even so, he's actually interested in trying it, without anyone forcing him. so he might as well.

K.Mandla
September 11th, 2006, 09:44 PM
I'd have to agree with Brunellus. If you need Windows applications, and you want Windows applications, and you're willing to pay for them, then by all means stick with them.

The best reason to switch to Ubuntu (or any other distro -- or any other OS) is because you prefer it. Install it on a spare machine, poke around with it, and if you find yourself coming back to it, then you should think about switching.

Cheers! :)

ago
September 11th, 2006, 09:48 PM
No point in getting upset if I point out things that I will miss.
I do not think anybody is getting upset here, but how can you even know you will miss something if you haven't tried the alternatives at all? If you try things first and then complain about missing features, that is PERFECTLY FINE, in fact it is even useful for the community, since we can take notice and fill the gaps. But blind complaints (aka prejudice) are not that helpful. That said, I am sure you are in good faith, and I probably understand what you mean. But you also need to have some confidence in the persons that kindly spent their time to answer your questions.

aysiu
September 11th, 2006, 09:48 PM
but even so, he's actually interested in trying it, without anyone forcing him. so he might as well.
I think the OP has been sending mixed messages, though. On the one hand, MrLeN has said he (I'm assuming he because of the Mr) doesn't intend to switch to Ubuntu and has a spare computer to install it on. On the other hand, he's asked about very specific equivalents to all the Windows applications he uses.

If you're not trying to replace your productivity OS (Windows), why do you need all the Ubuntu equivalents for Windows software?

If MrLeN is now taking the attitude, "Oh, screw the equivalent applications. I just want to have fun and toy around with a new OS," then I will say, "Go for it! You have an extra PC. Have fun. Go play."

If, however, his computer is his money-maker, and he doesn't have time to waste on a hobby OS, I will say, "Don't waste your time. Clearly Ubuntu won't suit your needs." To MrLeN, Ubuntu probably won't end up being more than a curiosity item.

For me--and for a lot of other users--Ubuntu is how we get stuff done.

maniacmusician
September 11th, 2006, 09:54 PM
sure, but a lot of users just check out ubuntu and then keep on moving. maybe back to windows, maybe to other distros.

and besides, he doesn't know what he's talking about yet. he can say that he knows linux will not satisfy his needs, but he's never used it. so i'm just saying, maybe he'll try it and discover there's not as much lacking as he thought. that's certainly how I felt when I first switched to Linux.

basically, it's just a coin toss. he may find the functionality he wants, he may not, but either way he still wants to try it

aysiu
September 11th, 2006, 10:00 PM
If MrLeN says, "Hey I want to give it an honest shot. I don't think it'll suit my needs, but I do have some extra time to play around, and I do have an extra PC," then I agree with you.

Based on what MrLeN has said (indicative of attitude and software needs), I would say it's probably a waste of time.

The only real question is whether MrLeN has time to waste or not...

Brunellus
September 11th, 2006, 10:06 PM
sure, but a lot of users just check out ubuntu and then keep on moving. maybe back to windows, maybe to other distros.

and besides, he doesn't know what he's talking about yet. he can say that he knows linux will not satisfy his needs, but he's never used it. so i'm just saying, maybe he'll try it and discover there's not as much lacking as he thought. that's certainly how I felt when I first switched to Linux.

basically, it's just a coin toss. he may find the functionality he wants, he may not, but either way he still wants to try it
It's very hard to react positively to "OK, well, I'm going to try it, but I'm sure It's going to suck anyway."

maniacmusician
September 11th, 2006, 10:20 PM
It's very hard to react positively to "OK, well, I'm going to try it, but I'm sure It's going to suck anyway."
regardless of how hard it may be, stereotypes are still painfully prominent...but to successfully overcome it, we educate people against stereotypes, not get mad at them for having biased thoughts.

we have a reputation for being a caring and helpful community, so let's not deviate from that. regardless of what he said before he tried the OS, it's what he says after he tries it that really matters. and he is going to try it. so i don't see a problem....

maniacmusician
September 11th, 2006, 10:22 PM
If MrLeN says, "Hey I want to give it an honest shot. I don't think it'll suit my needs, but I do have some extra time to play around, and I do have an extra PC," then I agree with you.

Based on what MrLeN has said (indicative of attitude and software needs), I would say it's probably a waste of time.

The only real question is whether MrLeN has time to waste or not...
I suppose that's true enough.

I guess we'll find out.

DoctorMO
September 11th, 2006, 10:36 PM
I think I need a cup of tea.

aside: Do you think I should use Soya Milk? I mean I want Real Milk right, but with out all of the risks of lactos induced farting; I'm just worried that it won't be real milk.

MrLeN
September 11th, 2006, 10:42 PM
wow -- why is everyone being so defensive? I am only stating what I am thinking; and what I am thinking is that once I install Ububtu on my other computer, it will likely never become more than a toy to me (and I hope I am wrong). Furthermore, several people have already stated that I should install it and "play" with it. Such comments in themselves helped me to view Ubuntu as a likely toy. I certainly don't think "Linux" is a "toy", because I have Linux servers and 25% of servers on the Internet are Linux. So for me to say that would be ridiculous. But a Linux "Desktop OS" is -- and I'll say it again, as far as I can ascertain, just that: a toy. At least for now. That doesn't mean it doesn't have potential.

Also, just because I have stated that I feel that a Desktop OS should try to aim towards running windows software -- that's just an opinion. There's no need to get all upset. 90% of software is made for windows. If a Linux "Desktop OS" could utilize the "tens of billions" of dollars (maybe hundreds of billions) of software that has already been created, then would that not be a good thing? As far as I can see, I am only speaking logic. Anyone who takes exception to my statement is being overly defensive, imho. If what I said is so ridiculous, then why are there so many applications that attempt to run and emulate Windows software and environments?

I need access to Windows programs and windows environments. I asked which programs would run, and from what I can gather (while taking into account that I have not yet tried Ubuntu) is that if I want to run Ubuntu and be able to run Windows programs -- I'm heading for a pretty rocky road. I am starting to get a bit upset that I am stating perfectly logical things, as well as my requirements, and I am being made out as a person that has basically just shown up to blast holes in Ubuntu -- which I most certainly have not. I am genuinely trying to give it a go -- but if I am going to do that, I want to know what's going on. I want to know as much as I can. If my opinions and replies to your replies are wrong -- just say so, and I'll likely accept it. No need to start growling.

Just the fact that I am trying to install it is evidence enough that I am genuinely giving it a go. If I go back and read over the previous comments, I'll find at least several statements saying that I should just not use it. I am being told that I want a free Windows. I am being told that I want a bug free Windows. My interest in Ubuntu has caused some of you to cast me in a poor light -- and I think this is unfair. I already stated that I don't mind paying fort Windows (look back).. so I am NOT looking for a free Windows. All I am doing is considering investigating Ubuntu, to see what I can get out of it.

Who knows, I might install it and find that I can do everything that I need to do one way or another. I have not made any conclusive judgments at this stage -- and even if it turns out to HATE it -- I have no good reason to start bagging Ubuntu, as has already been suggested. Why would I? For what purpose. If it turns out that I don't like it, I'll just delete it and go on my way. I probably wont state why I decided against it here, because I can already see my fate.

I have only made comments on what I am thinking so far. I think some of you guys should just take a chill pill, step back and let people who are genuinely interested in giving Ubuntu a go, to give it a go. Not once did I say Ubuntu sucks, or that I think it will suck! Give me a break! Not Once did I say one negative thing, other than (and maybe in an emphatic way) that I just cannot live without certain applications -- and I can't. But I understand that Ubuntu has some replacements, and for all I know I might love them!

At the end of the day, I am trying it out. No crime there. I have stated that my expectations are low; isn't that safe? I read an article explaining how to "convert people to Ubuntu" and one of the things it says is not to overstate the usefulness of it. I read over what I have stated to see what caused everyone to start ranting at me, but if I had a chance to make the posts again -- I'd type the exact same thing (except I think the W3C thing got a few people not linking me much).

So, considering that I am trying to give it a go -- and I have asked VERY specific questions, and that I am doing my utmost best to understand what Ubuntu can and can't do, even as I state what my reaction to those revelations are -- I think you should get off my back and let me give it a go.

MrLeN

aysiu
September 11th, 2006, 10:43 PM
As far as I can see, I am only speaking logic. Anyone who takes exception to my statement is being overly defensive, imho. I guess the discussion ends there, then...

Brunellus
September 11th, 2006, 10:53 PM
We are trying to save you--and us--time, money, and aggravation.

You are not the only person to come into the forums asserting, a priori that Linux is not ready for the desktop. Aysiu keeps a handy list of all such threads. If we seem weary, it's because we have to deal with the same set of excuses over and over and over again.

The easiest solution: if you don't want trouble, don't seek it out. If you MUST have those Windows applications--and cannot possibly use any others, for any number of valid reasons--then don't bother not using Windows. Un-windows (Linux, BSD, OSX, Solaris, QNX, whatever) won't suit your needs. Surf smart, use the necessary anti-virus and anti-spyware, keep a close eye on your machine, and prosper.

There are no big red buttons in ubuntu except the one that turns it off.

ago
September 11th, 2006, 10:53 PM
it will likely never become more than a toy to me
Now I am sure you are a troll. People simply tried to explain that you should talk only after you have at least a few minutes of experience behind you back. But sadly you keep talking...


because I have Linux servers and 25% of servers on the Internet are Linux.
25%? That looks more like the windows market share to me... Apache alone is about 65% last time I checked...


I have not made any conclusive judgments at this stage
Yes you did... More than once.

MrLeN
September 11th, 2006, 10:55 PM
Pah! I give up -- I am going to reserve the rest of my responses to direct questions.

MrLeN

ago
September 11th, 2006, 11:21 PM
I want to run Ubuntu and be able to run Windows programs

"a Desktop OS should try to aim towards running windows software"

+

"I need access to Windows programs and windows environments."

=

"But a Linux 'Desktop OS' is -- and I'll say it again, as far as I can ascertain, just that: a toy"


Never mind that several people explained that the aim of Linux is NOT to run windows aps, never mind that several people explained that you do not need to use windows apps since there are adequate substitutes... Never mind you have not even tried linux yet and do not know what you are talking about... You are still singing the "toy story"...

I gave you the benefit of the doubt. Now I take it back. I really do not think you genuinely want to try another OS. You already wasted enough people time.

MrLeN
September 11th, 2006, 11:34 PM
geez, just let the guy try it first, won't you?

why are we harassing him anyways? he's in the process of trying for himself, and he'll discover in due time whether its for him or not. if he's smart he'll ask lots of questions.

btw, MrLen, just out of curiosity, which flavor do you plan on using?

The ISO that I am downloading is:

http://mirrors.uwa.edu.au/ubuntu-releases/6.06/ubuntu-6.06.1-desktop-i386.iso

I have my burner installed now, and I have downloaded CDBurner XP Pro -- Except I don't know how to use it :confused:

Unfortunately, I have never burned anything before. I have had this burner for ages, but never used it. So I have to figure it out.

I am really looking forward to installing Ubuntu onto my second computer, which from memory it's a 1.8GHZ AMD with 1024MB of ram.

Once I have the ISO burned onto a the CD, what's the best way for me to install it onto my other computer? Should I just reformat it and boot the computer with CD support?

MrLeN

aysiu
September 11th, 2006, 11:39 PM
Try this:
http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntu/iso

MrLeN
September 11th, 2006, 11:41 PM
Thanks mate :)

aysiu
September 11th, 2006, 11:46 PM
Since it's a spare second computer, you can just choose to erase the entire hard drive--a lot less complicated than dual-booting.

maniacmusician
September 11th, 2006, 11:54 PM
indeed. you don't have to do it in advance or anything, it's part of the linux installer. just choose "Erase entire hard drive" and it will make all the necessary partitions and whatnot.

MrLeN
September 11th, 2006, 11:58 PM
I seem to have hit a bit of a problem. CDBurner XP Pro is telling me that my disk is not empty. As far as I know I have never used these CD's.

They are: CD-R 80MIN/700MB 52x

I have been following the directions on the page provided:

http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntu/iso

I am up to the part where I click write. Then it says:


The loaded disk is not empty. Please insert an empty disk and try again.

MrLeN

aysiu
September 11th, 2006, 11:58 PM
indeed. you don't have to do it in advance or anything, it's part of the linux installer. just choose "Erase entire hard drive" and it will make all the necessary partitions and whatnot.
This is what the option looks like.

MrLeN
September 12th, 2006, 12:01 AM
indeed. you don't have to do it in advance or anything, it's part of the linux installer. just choose "Erase entire hard drive" and it will make all the necessary partitions and whatnot.

Great, that's what I was just about to ask. Sounds easy..

MrLeN

maniacmusician
September 12th, 2006, 12:01 AM
phew! you go above and beyond, aysiu. nice post. if we had "karma" on this board, you'd get a +1.

elpuerco
September 12th, 2006, 12:02 AM
The original poster, me, concludes that the Ubuntu setup is naff!

However the Kubuntu alternate i386 and AMD64 are very good.

Basis of these statements?

Ubuntu LiveCD attempts:

1 Numerous which failed each time without any error meesage to say why?

2 Attempted same on another laptop, stalled at loading/checking VESA?

3 Attempted again on another laptop same spec as 1 above and
used got as far as writing partition information ext3 at 4% then hung.

Ubuntu Alternate CD

on laptop 2 above got as far as 80% or there abouts (so many attempts can't remember) on installing packages

Kubuntu Alternate CD

On laptop 1 above, complete trouble free install fully working OS =D>

On laptop 2 above, complete trouble free install, no wireless network but suspect external problem rather than OS fault =D>

On laptop 3 above, complete trouble free install fully working OS =D>

On very old laptopm, complete trouble free install fully working OS =D>
Kubuntu Alternate AMD64 CD

Installed OK only problems are with HP printer to be resolved with stuff I have found on this site (I hope) and problem with Netgear WG111T which others are experiencing too and I am still working on.

I speak as I find, Kubuntu installs a dream, for me on numerous machins Ubuntu did not.

I am chuffed to bits with Kubuntu as is my colleague as will be my brother once I suss out his teething problems.

My install is 100% working as I want, so I am very happy =D>

maniacmusician
September 12th, 2006, 12:04 AM
I seem to have hit a bit of a problem. CDBurner XP Pro is telling me that my disk is not empty. As far as I know I have never used these CD's.

They are: CD-R 80MIN/700MB 52x

I have been following the directions on the page provided:

http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntu/iso

I am up to the part where I click write. Then it says:


The loaded disk is not empty. Please insert an empty disk and try again.

MrLeN
perhaps its the program you're using...i've never heard of it. does the CD appear empty in windows explorer/my computer?

also, it could be that your blank CDs are defective and/or do not like your CD burner

aysiu
September 12th, 2006, 12:04 AM
I seem to have hit a bit of a problem. CDBurner XP Pro is telling me that my disk is not empty. As far as I know I have never used these CD's.

They are: CD-R 80MIN/700MB 52x

I have been following the directions on the page provided:

http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntu/iso

I am up to the part where I click write. Then it says:


The loaded disk is not empty. Please insert an empty disk and try again.

MrLeN I've had that happen to me before in both Windows and Ubuntu. Sometimes if you load in the CD too fast, whatever burning program you're using decides too early that there isn't a blank disk in there. Try ejecting the CD and then putting it back in again.


Great, that's what I was just about to ask. Sounds easy..

MrLeN This tutorial should walk you through the whole thing--as you can see, very straightforward questions. It should also go without a hitch if you have 1 GB of RAM (no freezing up or anything). http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntu/installing

MrLeN
September 12th, 2006, 12:08 AM
perhaps its the program you're using...i've never heard of it. does the CD appear empty in windows explorer/my computer?

also, it could be that your blank CDs are defective and/or do not like your CD burner

Hmm.. I have about 8 CD's that I have not used. I gave 2 of them to a friend a while back. I checked them in explorer and they appear empty.

When I click properties it says:

File System RAW
Used Space: 0MB
Free Space: 702MB

I have only just installed the burner, so I put a CD which I know has stuff on it (My modem driver disk), and it loaded up fine.

I tried all 8 disks, and all of them do the same thing.

Hmm.. What to do..

MrLeN

MrLeN
September 12th, 2006, 12:14 AM
NEVER MIND! I am mental..

I selected save disk as ISO File instead of write disk from ISO file.

back to business...

MrLeN

maniacmusician
September 12th, 2006, 12:14 AM
you could try another program, I suppose. I don't remember totally, but I think Daeman (sp) tools has the ability to burn ISO's.

aysiu
September 12th, 2006, 12:15 AM
Well, you don't really need to use CDBurnerXP, actually. I suggested that in my tutorial only because it's free, so I know anyone can download it.

If you have Nero or even Easy CD Creator, you can burn the ISO as a disk image, too.

Here's a HowTo on burning a disk image in Nero (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=111589&highlight=howto+nero)

DoctorMO
September 12th, 2006, 12:15 AM
You could install a different tool, maybe even cdrecord for windows (I know it exists)

because cdrecord will allow you to use the command line! :-)

otherwise try getting nero or toast.

maniacmusician
September 12th, 2006, 12:16 AM
you could try another program. I don't really remember any good ones in windows. I always used either Ashampoo (have to buy it) or Alcohol 120 (the same) to burn ISOs

maniacmusician
September 12th, 2006, 12:17 AM
lol. we're all so wonderfully synchronized

aysiu
September 12th, 2006, 12:18 AM
NEVER MIND! I am mental..

I selected save disk as ISO File instead of write disk from ISO file.

back to business...

MrLeN
We all have those moments at one point or another. Let us know if you run into any other obstacles.

Brunellus
September 12th, 2006, 12:21 AM
NEVER MIND! I am mental..

I selected save disk as ISO File instead of write disk from ISO file.

back to business...

MrLeN
yeah I did the same, the first time I tried to install ubuntu.

MrLeN
September 12th, 2006, 01:33 AM
The file got to 36% and then an error occurred, now that disk can't be used. So now I am doing it again at 1x speed. So far it has done 44%. So far so good.

While I am waiting -- is it possible for me to link my XP computer with the Linux computer on a network? I have a parallel cable. Can I use that?

If I could, that would be fantastic.

MrLeN

maniacmusician
September 12th, 2006, 01:39 AM
a parallel cable? I think you'd need to set up a network. All you need is a network hub and some of them networking cables.

to communicate with windows, linux uses the Samba protocol. The newest implementation is in the cifs transfer protocol. There's a thread on it somewhere around here, lemme dig it up

maniacmusician
September 12th, 2006, 01:41 AM
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=128873&highlight=cifs

there you go. it might be a little confusing for a new user, I don't know. post if you need help

first you gotta get the cd burned though hehe.

MrLeN
September 12th, 2006, 01:46 AM
lol -- ok.. I am just thinking of stuff, because I can't do anything until the CD is done. So -- another question: Is Ubuntu similar to Mepis?

MrLeN

prizrak
September 12th, 2006, 01:49 AM
lol -- ok.. I am just thinking of stuff, because I can't do anything until the CD is done. So -- another question: Is Ubuntu similar to Mepis?

MrLeN
MEPIS is based on Ubuntu right now. That's about as much as I know :)

Also I would be very interested to hear your opinions after you have tried Ubuntu alternatives to your Windows programs. The reason we all sorta jumped on you was because you were making judgements before trying it out. Once you try it we wanna know what you think.

P.S. If the CD fails again try downloading it over bittorrent as BT actually has built in error checking.

nalmeth
September 12th, 2006, 01:50 AM
Yes, it is similar, because Mepis forked ubuntu's code for their current release. The difference is Mepis includes non-free software in the distribution.

maniacmusician
September 12th, 2006, 01:54 AM
no idea. the only other one i've ever tried is suse. ubuntu (or rather, Xubuntu) was my first succesful distro where everything "clicked" for me and I understood linux. I used to be a windows power user such as yourself and so it was kind of hard for me at first, but easy once i got the hang of it. now i learn new stuff everyday, try to help other people, etc. Personally, for your first distro, I would have recommended Kubuntu instead of Ubuntu, because it's apps are mroe functional and in depth. Ubuntu is pretty good as well though. but these are all personal choices, you really have to dabble and figure out what you like.

for instance, last time i tried KDE (on SUSE), i didnt like it. But i just installed Kubuntu on my mother's laptop, and I liked it quite a bit. I think i'll install it on my computer as well.

I think you might like to take a look at this: http://ubuntuguide.org/wiki/Dapper

not ALL the apps it recommends are the best, but most of them are decent. and it has links to screencasts and whatnot.

jimmygoon
September 12th, 2006, 02:03 AM
No offense but with that first post and your complete inability to try something new and/or adapt then I'm just gonna say it: ubuntu isn't for you.

If it had every program that windows had, and acted just like windows... then it would BE windows... not linux...

you are looking for the wrong thing ;)

toasted
September 12th, 2006, 02:09 AM
Ubuntu and Mepis are both Debian based. What that gives you is repositories chocked full of software. Free for the asking along with lots of support.

There are a few different ways of installing software in Ubuntu. Look at Synaptic, Automatix, Easy Ubuntu, GDebi Package Installer, and always the install from source code. Automatix is an easy way to get your codecs installed for internet travel so you can see flash, java etc. These things are non-free and are not included with Ubuntu by design. Its up to you if you want to install them.

maniacmusician
September 12th, 2006, 02:13 AM
yup everyone summed it up pretty well. unless you have abnormal hardware, automatix will be one of your best friends. (though it would be best to not use automatix if you really want to *learn* the system...but then of course you will have more problems that you will have to deal with. that, my friend, is the learning experience.) but yeah also check out that site i posted. even i found some software on there that I didnt know about.

MrLeN
September 12th, 2006, 02:56 AM
Guess what? I am making this post from Ubuntu! wow -- It's pretty nice at a glance. The first thing I notice is that the task bar is at the top and the document tab bar is at the bottom. That's an immediate improvement over what I'm used to. I can't STAND it when I have 50 things open and they're all squished up in tabs.

Secondly, I can change the transparency and the height percentage. That's the very first thing I did because the text was so small, I could hardly see it. But now I can see it.

The screen resolution is very high though. I can hardly even see what I am typing now. My guess is that the default resolution is much higher than the 1024 that I usually use. I'll have a look at that situation in a minute.

I tried viewing Ubuntu on my other computer, but there's something wrong with the mongerel thing. I think I'll have to take it to get looked at. So, I threw the CD in this one, turned the computer on and next thing I know I am looking at the desktop. It took a while to load, but I guess that's because it's only running on RAM and can't utilize disk space.

The first thing I wanted to know was whether it picked up my hardware. So I went to the examples folder and watched the movie. Sound works fine. No hassle! Then I thought - hmm, I wonder if I have to set my Internet connection or something. So I opened FireFox, typed: http://www.ubuntu.com and hit enter -- and you know what happened from there.

I am very impressed. It looks fantastic so far. I am going to have a bit of a play around and see how I like it. I think I am going to have to have a dual boot system -- because my other computer seems to be working slow or something -- plus I don't have an internet connection for it and I don't have a router or a hub.

Anyway -- so far things look cool. But just looking cool isn't going to cut it. Now I am going to go see if it is actually useful. But like I said.. so far I am quite imprerssed. Looks great.

So there you go -- I said nice things. So y'all can get off my back about my opinion that it should run (or aspire to run) windows software, ok? :p

MrLeN

maniacmusician
September 12th, 2006, 03:01 AM
Guess what? I am making this post from Ubuntu! wow -- It's pretty nice at a glance. The first thing I notice is that the task bar is at the top and the document tab bar is at the bottom. That's an immediate improvement over what I'm used to. I can't STAND it when I have 50 things open and they're all squished up in tabs.

Secondly, I can change the transparency and the height percentage. That's the very first thing I did because the text was so small, I could hardly see it. But now I can see it.

The screen resolution is very high though. I can hardly even see what I am typing now. My guess is that the default resolution is much higher than the 1024 that I usually use. I'll have a look at that situation in a minute.

I tried viewing Ubuntu on my other computer, but there's something wrong with the mongerel thing. I think I'll have to take it to get looked at. So, I threw the CD in this one, turned the computer on and next thing I know I am looking at the desktop. It took a while to load, but I guess that's because it's only running on RAM and can't utilize disk space.

The first thing I wanted to know was whether it picked up my hardware. So I went to the examples folder and watched the movie. Sound works fine. No hassle! Then I thought - hmm, I wonder if I have to set my Internet connection or something. So I opened FireFox, typed: http://www.ubuntu.com and hit enter -- and you know what happened from there.

I am very impressed. It looks fantastic so far. I am going to have a bit of a play around and see how I like it. I think I am going to have to have a dual boot system -- because my other computer seems to be working slow or something -- plus I don't have an internet connection for it and I don't have a router or a hub.

Anyway -- so far things look cool. But just looking cool isn't going to cut it. Now I am going to go see if it is actually useful. But like I said.. so far I am quite imprerssed. Looks great.

So there you go -- I said nice things. So y'all can get off my back about my opinion that it should run (or aspire to run) windows software, ok? :p

MrLeN

haha as long as you mean it ;) it's true, many people got defensive....but you basically called our operating system of choice a mere "toy" so you have to understand it can be offensive.

I hope you grow to like it. once you get more familiar, try the other desktop environments (Kubuntu, Xubuntu). ask lots of questions, use the forums a lot...tons of good info on here.

good luck

nalmeth
September 12th, 2006, 03:11 AM
So there you go -- I said nice things. So y'all can get off my back about my opinion that it should run (or aspire to run) windows software, ok? :p Thank you for obliging ;)

Seriously though, glad to see you testing it out, and I'm glad to see you like the gnome interface. It is not my prefered DE, but there it is. From a lot of your comments, I toyed with the thought you might prefer KDE (used in Kubuntu for example).

If it hasn't been suggested already (yawn, this is a long thread :p), you should check out the excellent community documentation. My favorite homebase for docs is the Ubuntu Document Storage Facility:
http://doc.gwos.org/

As for aspiring to run windows apps, this completely absurd from where I stand, but your opinions are your own, and we can leave it there..

If you have specific questions, or are looking for suggestions, you know where to ask.

Quick tips:
Have a lot of multimedia with proprietary codecs? Check here for why they can't play on a fresh install:
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RestrictedFormats
Got a lot of photos? Try out f-spot

PatrickMay16
September 12th, 2006, 04:01 AM
In response to the original poster of this thread...

MrLeN, you have a lot of windows only software that you really want to/must use which you payed a lot of money for, you want to do things the windows way (like wanting anti virus, and registry cleaning stuff; stuff which is absolutely useless on anything other than windows), and you had an experience with Apple computers which you described:


As with Apple -- I actually prefer an Apple computer, but I am tired of not being able to use this or that, so It's not worth using. I don't like having to wait for an "Apple" version of stuff. It's a pity, because it's better than Windows, but on the other hand I want options and I can't be bothered -- nor do I have the time for stuff that wont work. I also really don't like waiting for releases.


Well if you had those problems with Apple, you're guaranteed to have a worse time with Ubuntu/Linux.

So I conclude that Ubuntu/Linux is not useful for you. That's fine... right tool for the right job. But please don't go and say stuff like "I see Ubuntu as being more of a toy than something that can be used for, and in conjunction with business purposes", because that is just not true. Linux is used on servers and workstations, embedded applications, super computers... it's up to the job. Just because you can't run "PC tools registry cleaner" doesn't mean that it's not useful.

Brunellus
September 12th, 2006, 05:05 AM
Guess what? I am making this post from Ubuntu! wow -- It's pretty nice at a glance. The first thing I notice is that the task bar is at the top and the document tab bar is at the bottom. That's an immediate improvement over what I'm used to. I can't STAND it when I have 50 things open and they're all squished up in tabs.

Secondly, I can change the transparency and the height percentage. That's the very first thing I did because the text was so small, I could hardly see it. But now I can see it.

The screen resolution is very high though. I can hardly even see what I am typing now. My guess is that the default resolution is much higher than the 1024 that I usually use. I'll have a look at that situation in a minute.

I tried viewing Ubuntu on my other computer, but there's something wrong with the mongerel thing. I think I'll have to take it to get looked at. So, I threw the CD in this one, turned the computer on and next thing I know I am looking at the desktop. It took a while to load, but I guess that's because it's only running on RAM and can't utilize disk space.

The first thing I wanted to know was whether it picked up my hardware. So I went to the examples folder and watched the movie. Sound works fine. No hassle! Then I thought - hmm, I wonder if I have to set my Internet connection or something. So I opened FireFox, typed: http://www.ubuntu.com and hit enter -- and you know what happened from there.

I am very impressed. It looks fantastic so far. I am going to have a bit of a play around and see how I like it. I think I am going to have to have a dual boot system -- because my other computer seems to be working slow or something -- plus I don't have an internet connection for it and I don't have a router or a hub.

Anyway -- so far things look cool. But just looking cool isn't going to cut it. Now I am going to go see if it is actually useful. But like I said.. so far I am quite imprerssed. Looks great.

So there you go -- I said nice things. So y'all can get off my back about my opinion that it should run (or aspire to run) windows software, ok? :p

MrLeN
Welcome to your new toy OS. Feel free to flame now that you've actually tried it.

The fact that you're cranked up to a very high resolution is a good thing, believe it or not: it means that Ubuntu has correctly recognized your graphics card/driver/display combination and auto-configured the correct 'native' resolution.... out of the box.

I would instead change the default font sizes, rather than messing with resolutions. Trust me, it's a lot better that way; easier to have LOTS of space for putting windows in, rather than being squeezed for space just for the sake of reading text. It is also possible to zoom text 'on the fly' with browsers and so forth, which is what I do.

In fairness: you will have a devil of a time getting a good ubuntu system going without an internet connection. ubuntu really gets its strength from the online repository system, and cut off from that, it's really quite a struggle (I find) to keep a system up to date.

prizrak
September 12th, 2006, 02:36 PM
MrLen,

You should very much invest in a router, preferably a wireless one. They are fairly cheap right now ($40 will get you a decent one). It's a good investment if you want to run more than one machine and also getting a wireless one would be nice if you are planning on getting a laptop at all.

Brunellus
September 12th, 2006, 02:39 PM
MrLen,

You should very much invest in a router, preferably a wireless one. They are fairly cheap right now ($40 will get you a decent one). It's a good investment if you want to run more than one machine and also getting a wireless one would be nice if you are planning on getting a laptop at all.
get a router with real ethernet. USB for networking is not ready for the desktop; even Windows users have reported problems with flaky drivers.

toasted
September 12th, 2006, 03:35 PM
While wireless is very nice for a laptop or 2, I prefer wired networks both for speed and security. No worry of war-drivers ;)

jethro10
September 12th, 2006, 04:47 PM
Guess the older the dog the more new tricks they need to learn, and perhaps just can't be bothered?

Are there really any tasks that actually cannot be accomplished with a Linux PC?
Or just that the tasks can't be done in a familiar way with familiar software by well practised individuals who just haven't got the time or the motivation to learn changed ways?

Personally my motivation for starting Linux is not wanting to have to pay for another Microsoft OS when my current one is no longer supported.
Careful Boyo. I'm 45 and have started 6 months ago on Ubuntu just so I can learn new tricks.....
Admitedly a few of those are joining together a few choice swear words now and then. :o

J

MrLeN
September 12th, 2006, 05:34 PM
PatrickMay16


MrLeN, you have a lot of windows only software that you really want to/must use which you payed a lot of money for, you want to do things the windows way (like wanting anti virus, and registry cleaning stuff; stuff which is absolutely useless on anything other than windows), and you had an experience with Apple computers which you described:

I merely listed the programs that I use each day, regardless of whether I had paid for them or not. If it turns out that some of those programs are not necessary on Ubuntu, then all you have to do is say: "Hey, great! You don't even NEED some of those programs".. that would be better than getting annoyed with me for even listing them.


So I conclude that Ubuntu/Linux is not useful for you.

I think you're right -- but I am impressed with it enough to begin recommending it to computer users who don't have a whole lot of money to spend, and all they want to do is muck around online -- communicate with their friends, chat, send and receive some emails and surf the web. In all honesty, from what I can see such things are about as much as Ubuntu can provide before the user starts hitting constraints and technical difficulties.


That's fine... right tool for the right job. But please don't go and say stuff like "I see Ubuntu as being more of a toy than something that can be used for, and in conjunction with business purposes", because that is just not true.

We'll just have to leave it there and accept that we have differing opinions, because my opinion of Ubuntu is still that it's more of a toy, compared to commercial desktop operating systems.


Linux is used on servers and workstations, embedded applications, super computers... it's up to the job.

I have already stated as such, more than once. In previous posts in this thread, I have stated that 25% of online servers are Linux -- and that I do not view "Linux" as a toy. I even stated that to say such a thing would be ridiculous, and that even my own servers run Linux. Do not get confused between my views of Linux and Ubuntu. The Internet is thriving on Linux servers and open source software, and I believe that it will keep going that way. But I do not see a bright future for Linux desktop OS's unless they can run windows software.

Having said the above, I fully understand that Linux is not Windows. I understand that Linux does not intend to be Windows. Nevertheless, at the end of the day -- and as I have already stated, which is totally logical; considering that most people use software that was written for Windows, it is projects like what I have come to know as "WINE" that will boost Linux OS's into the cyber-stratosphere. Not continual assertions that Linux is not Windows, which is so blatantly obvious it amazes me why anyone even utters the words.


Just because you can't run "PC tools registry cleaner" doesn't mean that it's not useful.

Oh, you got me. My whole problem with Ubuntu is that I can't run PC Tools registry cleaner.

Brunellus,


Welcome to your new toy OS.

Thanks mate -- and looking good. I am actually quite impressed. I am glad I tried it, and as a result, my HDD is now dual booted, and I plan to continually load Ubuntu and explore the software that can be utilized. The main reason for this is that I want to give an honest shot at bridging any gaps between what I have become accustomed to with Windows, and what I cannot do with Ubuntu. I am especially receptive to replacement software. I am familiar with Gimp -- it's not bad software. Open Office is great too. I am not overly impressed with Evolution, to be frank -- but I haven't used it much. Maybe there are some nice plugins that will give me the functionality that I had with Outlook Express. At the end of the day, my mission is to find the best combinations of software that I can use with Ubuntu and suck as much "use" from it as I can. I feel that I'll be certainly recommending it to friends. Oh and I downloaded Skype -- works ok too.


Feel free to flame now that you've actually tried it.

I never flamed Ubuntu in the first place -- I was merely cast in a light which made me out to be flaming Ubuntu, which started to irritate me. I think that this community has a bit of a chip on its shoulder. Maybe as I read more posts, I will become more aware of people flaming Ubuntu and running off or something, and then maybe I'll understand what all the commotion from this thread was about. But I think that some people around here need to take a step back and realize that if someone is making incorrect assumptions, then it is a fantastic opportunity to politely correct them -- not practically just start growling. The more absurd the statements and assumptions are, the more dramatic this community can be in their approach, saying things like: "You'll have very happy! You wont have that problem". Or, "Ubuntu is great in that respect - Those tools aren't necessary". But from what I can see -- this forum has a lynch mob complete with bandanas and baseball bats, and as soon as someone says something about windows -- it's stacks on.


In fairness: you will have a devil of a time getting a good Ubuntu system going without an internet connection. Ubuntu really gets its strength from the online repository system, and cut off from that, it's really quite a struggle (I find) to keep a system up to date.

Yeah, I noticed that it has an update balloon at the top. That's another fantastic feature.

Prizrak,


You should very much invest in a router, preferably a wireless one. They are fairly cheap right now ($40 will get you a decent one). It's a good investment if you want to run more than one machine and also getting a wireless one would be nice if you are planning on getting a laptop at all.

Yea, I think I will. I need to invest in more ram too. I want to make sure both my computers are loaded. I think I'll be paying a visit to eBay later today.

To everyone,

All in all -- I really am quite impressed. So, there's really no need for you to be so defensive. I have only good things to say about Ubuntu, and if I have opinions about where I think the Linux desktop OS community should be heading in regards to running Windows apps; hey, it's just an opinion. If you don't agree - fine. But some of you have actually started to be real smart asses, which is sad.

You should not assume that everyone new to the forums and new to Ubuntu is here to beat up on Ubuntu. I have been called a Troll. I have had to put up with highly sarcastic comments, made from out of context quotes. I have been informed of things which I have already previously stated to be true MYSELF. So at the very least, to some of you, if you're going to be a smart *** to people who are just here to try it out and ask questions (regardless of what misconceptions you feel that the person may or may not have), then you should at the VERY least read the post in full, and not accuse the poster of views which he has already demonstrated a supportive opinion on.

This thread has been a bit of a battle -- it never had to be, that's all I'm saying. But also -- I can't just end my post by complaining like that. I'd also like to thank those of you that helped. Very much appreciated. I particularly found those mini installation tutorials very useful. I found installation to be VERY easy -- which is one misconception I had; that installing Linux would be hard. Well,, that's because I've tried it in the past and I ended up giving up due to the technical aspects that I didn't have time to learn. As for ease of installation and USE, I MUST give Ubuntu a 10/10. I honestly had not a single problem.

MrLeN

Edit Also, the decision to move this thread from where I originally posted it was an erroneous one, imho. The thread could have served as a perfect example for the community to constructively combat new user objections and perceived misconceptions. New users who read such a threads as this can get a heap of questions answered right away. There's no use blowing it and ruining the thread with defensive comments, sarcasm and accusations. I literally had to chew my eyebrows to keep calm here. I think in future -- you should always respond to new community members objectively and thoughtfully -- unless they're outright being nasty and offensive, which I certainly have not been (although some of you almost got it -- but that would made me out to be the loser, so I refrained). Take a leaf from maniacmusicman's book. He's the only one that had the sense to tell you to chill.

Tomosaur
September 12th, 2006, 06:03 PM
I think the problem is your (somewhat misinformed) statements about Linux/Ubuntu having 'constraints'. The fact of the matter is this: so long as you're not trying to play games, there's very little you can't do on Linux. People (including you) have this preconception that there's not much people can do on Linux aside from surfing the net. Well, put it this way: I have been using Windows for years, as a gamer, hobbyist developer (both web and software), media consumer, web surfer, communicator, artist, animator, modeller, writer, scientist, and basically everything even remotely to do with using a computer. Guess what the only thing I can't do on Linux is? Play Half-Life 2. That is the only thing I want Windows for. I choose to do any development and personal work on linux. I record music using linux, I write on linux, I do everything I used to do on Windows, on Linux. Except:
Scanning for viruses.
Defragging.
Banging my head against the desk in frustration.

Linux is 10 billion times easier than Windows to use once you get the hang of its structure. It's far more intuitive, and it's easier to navigate around. There's a wealth of tools for me to use, no matter what I choose to do, and game support is getting better all the time. This misconception that there's nothing to do in Linux is just plain wrong.

DoctorMO
September 12th, 2006, 06:03 PM
MrLeN, Thank you for your considered posts. I'm sorry if any of my posts came off as sarcastic or flame grilled. I did attempt to cool the thread a bit.

On the Toy note, I consider Windows to be a Toy not really worthy of real effective desktop solutions. but I don't go round to windows forums stating such because it's just not fair. toy is such an flame worthy word don't you think?

As for windows execution, I will barge in as a programmer who has worked with wine and in windows development. I don't think native support for windows executables is a good idea, not only does windows come with an api the size of jupiter but it's sort of prone to attack as you know. wine is a stop gap measure while software companies realise their error, it wouldn't cost them very much to compile adobe photoshop for instance to linux/gtk.

The problems don't just stem from a technical aspect either; there is a chance that Microsoft could target linux distrobutions that include the windows apis with patent, copyright, trade mark and goodness knows what else. the threat of legal action requires the windows compatability to remain outside of standard distrobution. this is why wmv codecs are not included too.

maniacmusician
September 12th, 2006, 06:10 PM
[looks at everyone else] don't kill me, i was only being nice

Mr.LeN:

You said some things that made sense, and some dubious sounding ones. Firstly, i'm glad you had such a great time with ubuntu; i hope you'll grow to use it enough to find a way to make it your primary OS.

I agree with you on the front that some of us have been defensive, even a little pompous...but upon saying that, you must also regard your own posts and some of the things that you said. I understand that it's just your opinion, but you can't call Ubuntu "just a toy" without expecting us to get riled up. It's a bit like being politically incorrect. Would you walk into a gay bar and say "Geez, people are only gay because they have self esteem problems and were abused as kids."? It's incorrect to say that, it's presumptuous, and its quite insulting. Instead, you could have said to us "Ubuntu looks to be a great OS, but I don't know if it will fit my needs (instead of saying I know it wont fit my needs)." It is not so much a matter of it being just your opionion as much as the fact that your word choice was not very good. Everyone that posted in this thread said some things that weren't right, and I bet there will be a flurry of negative responses again, because you onec again called Ubuntu a toy and whatnot.

But on that note, you have to realize that this argument was the fault of both the instigator and the people who responded. When you're in a community, you must be conscious to the feelings of that community and act accordingly...I guess it's just etiquette issues. It's all relative anyways.

I hope there isn't too much more argument, because i'm getting f*cking sick of it, no matter who's starting it.

But Mr.Len, I welcome you to continue posting and ask questions...at least try to find replacements for your windows products, so perhaps you move away from windows onto a stable system. As per your IE issues, I can suggest (if it hasnt already been suggested) a script called IE4Linux http://www.tatanka.com.br/ies4linux/index-en.html. hope that works for you.

MrLeN
September 12th, 2006, 06:33 PM
Ok, I wont call it a toy anymore -- *PROMISE*. I'll say that it's a great free OS that has a bright future. But can I hold on to my view that I think it will become more mainstream once it has a big red button saying "Launch Windows Environment".. which will allow users to use (any of) the billions of dollars of software they've purchased; and require for their courses, eCommerce, flawless and limitless communications (and options) with "Windows friends" and work, etc?

I know that such an aspiration is blaspheme for one eyed, hardcore Linux bandits; but can someone at least agree with me that it's a logical route that will help to boost the prominence of Linux as a desktop OS?

Legal issues pending, wouldn't it be smart to offer a way for Ubuntu users to "delete that partition" that I have already noticed so many threads and posts about?

MrLeN

Brunellus
September 12th, 2006, 06:44 PM
Ok, I wont call it a toy anymore -- *PROMISE*. I'll say that it's a great free OS that has a bright future. But can I hold on to my view that I think it will become more mainstream once it has a big red button saying "Launch Windows Environment".. which will allow users to use (any of) the billions of dollars of software they've purchased; and require for their courses, eCommerce, flawless and limitless communications (and options) with "Windows friends" and work, etc?

I know that such an aspiration is blaspheme for one eyed, hardcore Linux bandits; but can someone at least agree with me that it's a logical route that will help to boost the prominence of Linux as a desktop OS?

Legal issues pending, wouldn't it be smart to offer a way for Ubuntu users to "delete that partition" that I have already noticed so many threads and posts about?

MrLeN
The two projects you're banking on are WINE (http://winehq.org), which is a compatibility layer for windows programs in Linux, and Alky (http://www.alkyproject.com/), which is intended to permit windows executables to be converted into Linux exectuables.

There are enough of us in this community who won't spend billions of dollars to use software. We use the software available to us. Thus, we have fewer migration headaches than some other users. I am not heavily OS-committed, and am moving most of my data into formats that are themselves open, so that I could, if I wanted to, freely shift from one environment to the next without much disruption. This is admittedly possible because I don't have to 'retool' to the same degree. But it is possible.

I'm tired of hearing "Linux is not ready for the desktop" particularly "...because it doesn't run windows." Windows is, frankly, not necessary for *every* desktop; many will run fine without it.

You'll find that many in this community remember computers before all-pervasive, inescapable Windows; so by moving to a world without Windows, we don't find that we've lost anything. Users who never knew any other computing/competitive environment, on the other hand, tend to suffer.

maniacmusician
September 12th, 2006, 06:44 PM
"Launch Windows Environment" is indeed possible with VMWare. it's quite easy to set up. I used EasyVMX.com to make my image, found a tutorial on these forums on how to set up VMWare Server, and I was in business. It's true that there are a lot of windows applications. Some of them can be used through an abstraction layer like wine, some can't. For those, VMWare is fine. So you see, everything needed to "Launch Windows Environment" is here already.

I think it is a boon we have even put this much effort into compromising with windows. We have lots of other important things to consider in terms of advancing our own OS. Pretty much all of the options you mentioned in the first paragraph are accomodated in ubuntu, and lots more , bar gaming. But it really isn't our fault that companies havn't yet started to produce for linux. But see, by winning over users like this, we're spreading it, and hopefully, market share will soon be large enough for commercial companies to take notice.

Despite all these restrictions, I think we're doing fine. and for yourself, i can't emphasize enough; if you want to truly enjoy Ubuntu, make sure you use these forums.

ciao

toasted
September 12th, 2006, 07:34 PM
Ok, I wont call it a toy anymore -- *PROMISE*.

Ya know, everyone has told you that they are tired of this kind of talk. I really dont care what you say but I do wish that if you are going to continue along these lines that you say it somewhere else. Thats just me. I along with many others tried to be courteous to you even though you took an aggressive offensive stance. Thats it for me.


I'll say that it's a great free OS that has a bright future. But can I hold on to my view that I think it will become more mainstream once it has a big red button saying "Launch Windows Environment".. which will allow users to use (any of) the billions of dollars of software they've purchased; and require for their courses, eCommerce, flawless and limitless communications (and options) with "Windows friends" and work, etc?
Nope not that either. You dont have any idea the capability of Linux. Until you do you should not speak. You are simply making a fool of yourself.


I know that such an aspiration is blaspheme for one eyed, hardcore Linux bandits; but can someone at least agree with me that it's a logical route that will help to boost the prominence of Linux as a desktop OS?

Never because you are dead wrong


Legal issues pending, wouldn't it be smart to offer a way for Ubuntu users to "delete that partition" that I have already noticed so many threads and posts about?
MrLeN
See you really don't know the first thing about Linux... there is more proof.

maniacmusician
September 12th, 2006, 07:43 PM
aarrgh! [grabs head in pain] so....close...we went about 5 posts without big F*** you signs.

DoctorMO
September 12th, 2006, 08:08 PM
Thread well and truly toasted.

prizrak
September 12th, 2006, 08:36 PM
Ok, I wont call it a toy anymore -- *PROMISE*. I'll say that it's a great free OS that has a bright future. But can I hold on to my view that I think it will become more mainstream once it has a big red button saying "Launch Windows Environment".. which will allow users to use (any of) the billions of dollars of software they've purchased; and require for their courses, eCommerce, flawless and limitless communications (and options) with "Windows friends" and work, etc?

I know that such an aspiration is blaspheme for one eyed, hardcore Linux bandits; but can someone at least agree with me that it's a logical route that will help to boost the prominence of Linux as a desktop OS?

Legal issues pending, wouldn't it be smart to offer a way for Ubuntu users to "delete that partition" that I have already noticed so many threads and posts about?

MrLeN
The thing about the big red button is that it's not actually necessary. Linux isn't competing on the desktop with Windows users who have been there for years. That is both pointless and stupid. You cannot expect someone to change an OS and all of the programs they have. Linux (Ubuntu in particular) is geared towards either developing nations that are being introduced into the computing environment or organizations who need stable and secure workstations and are willing to invest some time into user training.

You should also try looking at the issue from the other side. Windows users should realize start taking a look outside of their cage and find www.sourceforge.net, www.openoffice.org and so on. Most of Linux applications have Windows ports, in fact just about any open source application will be ported to both platforms if it is useful enough. It was extremely easy for me to switch to Linux because I was already using all the software.

One of the biggest reasons Linux has no need to write Windows software is because any mainstream Windows product will have a Linux clone that is similar enough for 90% of the users. If you know ins and outs of MS Word and have a crapload of macros and templates you will have a very hard time switching over to Open Office if you are like my g/f who types up papers and resumes you will not have a single issue (she didn't).

People not being able to use the software they bought [that has a FOSS alternative] just means that they wasted their money on it. Also I don't think it's as much of a problem as you might think. After all you have to buy a new A/V subscription every year and for every PC (cept for Windows One Care Live it gives you 3 licenses) but you don't see people complaining that they already paid for it they just fork over the money.

Anyways this turned out to be a rant. I don't mean to disparage your views/opinions I juat think that you are wrong :)

aysiu
September 12th, 2006, 09:07 PM
The logical route to help boost the prominence of Linux as a desktop OS is preinstalled Linux computers like System76 (http://www.system76.com).

The MrLeNs may be the most likely to try Ubuntu (the technical know-how for downloading and burning ISOs, setting the BIOS to boot from CD-ROM, figuring out partitioning), but they're also the least likely to switch (too many Windows-only applications, too much Windows desktop experience).

Buy a Ubuntu desktop or laptop and you don't have to figure out wireless, video, audio, partitioning, installation, etc. Just start using it. That's what Windows users do with their Dell.

I do agree with MrLeN that for him desktop Linux (or Ubuntu specifically, in this case) will probably remain a toy.

But there are many people for whom Ubuntu and other desktop Linux distros could be far more than a toy. I, for example, use Ubuntu for all my computing needs: email, web browsing, web design, FTP, music listening (ripping, renaming, organizing), photo imports and manipulation, CD burning, files and settings backups, and word processing.

I don't think I'm alone in having those "basic" needs.

The real problem is that people who do have those (or fewer) needs tend not to want to try new things. They don't want to try something different. They want to use what "works" for them already. My mom, for example, would be a perfect candidate for Ubuntu, except that she freaks out if you so much as move an icon over to another part of the taskbar in Windows. Change for her is not good.

If I needed to use commercial computer games, AutoCAD, Photoshop (meaning the features Photoshop has that GIMP doesn't) and Flash (creator, not viewer), then I would probably consider Ubuntu a toy... or not consider Ubuntu at all.

I don't see why it's so complicated--assess your needs, then decide the appropriate OS for you. No need to make grandiose statements about how Ubuntu "needs" a big red Windows programs button just because you think you need one. Plenty of us have done just fine without a big red Windows programs button--including my wife, who uses Mac OS X.

maniacmusician
September 12th, 2006, 09:08 PM
prizrak, thanks for behaving :)

you make some pretty logical points. I'd like to add that even though we dont have to provide windows compatibility, we still have wine and vmware. does windows have anything like that?

quite frankly, a lot of linux programs are superior to windows alternatives. Some examples (from my POV are k3b, F-Spot, Tomboy, and a bunch others. and YES, there are windows programs that are better as well. But my view is that we should build Linux programs that can do it better, instead of porting them. but that's just my view. you think we should support windows compatibility; thats fine too.

Grey
September 12th, 2006, 10:14 PM
MrLen, I will write just one more post in this thread. This one.

Yes, it is your misinformed opinion that Linux should strive to support Windows software. But this is like the PSP striving to support GBA software. Yes, it's been done, but it doesn't make the handheld any more appealing on its own. If you are just going to be using it to play games for another system, then why not just buy the other system?

Fact of the matter is that Linux is a match for Windows in many areas.
K3B > Nero
Firefox > IE
OpenOffice.org > MS Office
XMMS == Winamp
Gaim > MSN/Y!/ICQ/AIM
PostgreSQL > SQL Server
Apache > IIS
Gedit > Notepad
VLC > WMP
bash > cmd


What I'm trying to say is that the software I use on a day to day basis is just as good as, or better than their windows equivalents. I get frustrated when I use Windows these days as it offers me no power. I can't customize my taskbars, middle click emulation doesn't work, and the software is subpar. The OS is unstable, and likes to do strange things.

In fact, I don't really miss any Windows software, other than my games. That's the ONLY reason I dual boot. And the only reason I use Wine... aside from a few exceptions. The short list?

-DVDShrink. (MythTV has a rather nice script that's nicer though).
-Firefox. (Flash 9 is required every now and then).
-TileStudio. (It's slow and unwieldy, but it's OSS, and does the job. I'm just too lazy to port it to Linux).

I don't use any of those programs very frequently. But they work when I need them to, which is important. As for the games I regularly play via Wine?

-Homeworld (works perfectly)
-Starcraft (Minor issues, but works fine)
-Red Alert 2 (Works perfectly)
-Alien vs Predator (Works fine (Better than Windows))

jacrider
September 12th, 2006, 11:56 PM
In the past week, I have had to do two OS installs.

On the weekend, I built a new Ubuntu machine for myself (have retired a Win2K machine). When selecting the components, I was concsious of staying in the mainstream: nVidia, SATA drives, Sony DVD burner, onboard Intel LAN, onboard Intel Sound. My install was very fast ... 30 minutes or so. That included installing OpenOffice and the other software that was included with the basic install. Add perhaps 10 - 15 minutes to allow Ubuntu to do all the required updates. Then in installed Automatix and added Skype, nvidia drivers, codecs, players, Flash, etc - say another 15 - 20 minutes. I don't remember having to reboot after the initial OS install. All in all very easy - about an hour and my machine is complete, up and running.

Last night I returned home to find my daughter's XP computer was blue-screening, slow and generally not behaving. It is a current computer (Pent IV 2.4Ghz), so this was not acceptable.

I have tried in the past to use XP's repair facilities with little success, so I did a reinstall of the OS. This took about 2 hours, including a HD format. Then windows updates of about 20 minutes. Then I had to start installing software: OpenOffice, Skype, DVD burner, DVD viewer, Anti-Virus, Anti-Spam, Firefox, Gaim, etc, etc. About 3.5 hours later with several reboots required, my daughter was back up and running. Now I admit that my Ubuntu box is constructed of very standard parts, so I didn't need any (other than updated nvidia) hardware support that didn't install automatically. On my daughter's PC, which is less standard, I needed the original CD that came with the machine to reinstall many drivers: USB, wireless, video, audio, etc. Very few were picked up in XP automatically.

Just my experience, but Ubuntu was much easier and faster.

prizrak
September 13th, 2006, 12:24 AM
you make some pretty logical points. I'd like to add that even though we dont have to provide windows compatibility, we still have wine and vmware. does windows have anything like that?

VMWare is available for all 3 big players.
Wine for Windows is cygwin.

jimmygoon
September 13th, 2006, 02:13 AM
"Linux still has a way to go"

"Windows still has a way to go"
"Mac OS X still has a way to go"

etc

Easterly Wind
September 13th, 2006, 04:40 AM
Here is my story how I got into Linux.

It all started back in 2000, when I had P133mmx at work - yes! all I needed it for was email and word processing, and it did it ok on Win98. I then tried to intsall Caldera Linux on that poor PC. I remember I was greatly impressed with the look of KDE but it stopped there. I could not get any work done. Everything was so alien and so painstaking, it took me days to get my PC online. And on top of everything else, it had no Cyrillic support. I'm Ukrainian, you see, now living in the UK. So tempering with linux then stopped completely as CD drive on that PC died.

My second approach to Linux happened couple years later. I tried to get any distro on my Compaq nx9005 laptop. I wanted Linux and wanted it badly. And I got unlimited DSL. Well, what else would I need? So I got down to work and tried RH, SuSE, Mandrake, all with various degree of disappointment, frustration and failure. RH refused to cooperate outrightly with a kernel panic. I later discovered a guide to get it set up but it involved too much of tinkering. SuSE was probably the most successful yet still unworkable. It was incredibly slow, and lots of minor (taken individually) things were wrong. Such as no wireless support, HSF modem didn't work, no support for side buttons, no hibernation, no decent word processing, no easy usb stick mounting. Combined all together, no anything basically.

And then it happened. A couple of months ago I discovered Ubuntu. I downloaded Breezy Live CD, and instantly liked it. Shame I had to download another 700 or so Meg for installation. But that was ok, that was Linux, wasn't it. Breezy was like a dawn of light. My wireless card based on rt2500 worked out of the box. Miracle? Well, not something too short of. I later discovered that rt2500 has a decent support in Linux, so getting cheap Cable&Wireless PCMCIA card was a good twist of luck. What was the most important thing, I managed to do my usual stuff with Breezy, I didn't use it just in 'demo' mode. Yes, Breezy had its own isues. I had to write my own ppd for my printer. Laptop still didn't hibernate. That's why I left Breezy for Dapper. And I think Dapper will be my main working OS for now.

What made me switch to Ubuntu? XP was getting more sluggish by day. Microsoft Antispyware thought it was the centre of the universe and didn't seem to be doing anything useful. IE would crash when I opened a link to RealPlayer media. And I wanted a decent PIM, so Evolution was the obviuos choice. I know Evolution is heavily criticised but for me it's better than Outlook or Thunderbird. Outlook is so slow and far too many options to think about when I want say a quick new task. Thunderbird and lightning - getting there, though addressbook seems pathetically limited.

What is missing in Ubuntu for me? OCR and fax. Linux has no good OCR software, the only one it has is literally Optical Text Recognition, forget any lay-out. I'm used to FineReader on XP, you see. HSF drivers are not free and won't work upon hibernation, so no fax for now. That is why I'm intending to stay dual-boot. Oh, and games. I'm not a heavy gamer at all, but I got into Half-Life 2 very much and doubt it'll work on Dapper.

All in all, I believe things look better now than ever for Linux. Ubuntu is a stable reliable easy fun distro. Thank you very much guys. MS has started really pissing people off. Yes, Linux is different to MS and it does take some (much) re-learning. Nothing horrible though. I've heard of 10 by 10 for Gnome, that is 10% Desktop share for 2010. I think it's achievable.

I guess people don't like to be constantly reminded that they are tied to one thing. That what MS does through genuine advantage, MSN etc. Especially when this thing is not that good and there is a viable alternative. Hardware support is a problem though. I guess the way forward is to find out what all those bits work with Linux and let people know, so they buy their hardware to work with their soft, not the other way round. The spec will not be 'cutting edge' but I believe that PC will still be stable reliable and, most importantly, adequate for home use. Turning to the bigger picture, what stops sourcing components from some obscure places in emerging markets, like China. Their brands are desperate to penetrate the West. I know there are lots of issues but let me give you an example. 2 years ago some unknown generics manufacture from abroad was offering exclusively on ebay dead cheap and simple mp3 players. Now these mp3 players are available at any major retailer.

Perception of MS is changing. I was taught at my professional education institution not to use ie but use Firefox instead because it is more secure. Universities hate to pay money for IT. A top British Uni uses pine on telnet for emailing and Mulburry when on-campus. I think Unies is the ideal environment for Ubuntu. The impact of first contact has been mentioned here many times. If a student is accustomed to OpenOffice and Firefox, good chances are the allegiance will be kept even though MS can be used for gaming.

Another thing is the countries with still 'relaxed' copyright protection. The laws have been enforced heavier and when MS Office becomes too costly guessed what people choose instead.

MrLeN
September 13th, 2006, 05:18 AM
I have been messing around with Ubuntu for almost a full day now, and I have to say that I am quite impressed. Right now, I am typing this message into the forums through WINE/IE6 -- which is great. The browser itself is slightly tacky -- and it doesn't add favorites properly. Nor does anything install, such as Google toolbar or Java -- but the installation comes with Flash (which as far as I can tell FireFox doesn't have). So, I have one huge requirement that I needed. I need an IE6 environment -- and now I have it, great.

I have been messing around with Evolution, and I have found it to be ok. I have also got about 5 email addresses running, including gmail, my ISP address, and a couple of private server addresses. I have used message filters to sort them into folders. So far so good. It kinda sucks that I can't get Hotmail running though, because I have no less than 200 different accounts with different places that I've signed up at with Hotmail over the years. BUT! Considering that Hotmail is annoying me more and more each day, I am going to use this project of exploration as an excuse to convert to gmail and spend a whole day (in the very near future) tracking down all my accounts and changing all the email addreses over. Not only is gmail better, and it has spam filters, but it can also be used through a clients. Hotmail is blowing their own foot off there. I use Hotmail in Outlook Express on Windows, but I should be able to use it where ever I want -- and if I can't do that, well frankly -- it sucks. I think what I will do is redirect all my emails to gmail, let gmail do the spam filtering and have them forwarded to Evolution. This is pretty much what I do with Hotmail now anyway; plus I have Cloudmark.

Oh, why am I so concerned about spam? I have many dozens of email addresses and many of them are years old and attract quite a bit of spam from being present on the Internet for so long. I can't live without a GOOD spam filter Cloudmark for Windows is a FANTASTIC program and worth every cent of the few bucks I pay for the monthly subscription. As far as I can tell, there's no good spam filtering plugin for Evolution. I do not consider spam assassin "good". I need accuracy.

I have installed Skype. As far as I can tell, it's doing the job. I also added my AIM, Yahoo and MSN messenger accounts to Gaim and had a little bit of a play with it. It's ok I suppose -- but there's nothing like the genuine releases though. Not that I really need all the functions, because all I use messengers for is for textual communication. However, it gets a bit annoying when users try to use certain functions of the proper application, and I can't receive them. On windows, I have all the genuine releases, and when someone wants to talk to me I just turn the appropriate one on.

I have installed a few of the Add/Remove programs that I found on the applications menu. I installed all the programming ones -- and, well --they're ok. The HTML editors don't even come close to HTML-Kit, which I used for the most part of every day online. I know that some people feel that you can just use notepad and any text editor will do, but a person that's hand coding almost all day every day -- you need more than just a text editor. You need options -- and HEAPS of them. So, unless there's some better editors for Linux, I'm going to remain a bit disappointed there.

However, all in all I have to say that I am absolutely impressed. Ubuntu has exceeded all of my expectations; far and beyond. The only real trouble I've had so far was getting my mic working -- but I finally got that sorted. Oh, and the first time I installed Ubuntu, it picked up my external USB drive. Now it wont pick it up, so I'll have to look into that to see what's going on. But apart from that, the installation was very easy.

I find Ubuntu to be remarkably fast. I have tried loading a HEAP of programs to see how much it could take before slowing down, and I have to say -- it beats Windows in that department, hands down. I have had this computer running for (gee, must) 10 hours now and it hasn't shown any sign of slowing down or bogging up, which is another great benefit over Windows. The layout and location of everything is very nice and quite intuitive.

I really like a heap of "right click" options -- and in general, the OS is lacking a few useful things that I want and use. Mainly properties tabs, locations and such.

All in all -- I am still on my mission to get my installation running with as MUCH software and as MANY options as I can possible search for and find. I am genuinely giving Ubunto a REAL, calculated and proper go. Why? Because as much as I've been accused of everything the the contrary, I really WANT to find and discover that I can use it.

I'll say that the way I have it set up so far -- in less than 24 hours is quite impressive. If my Windows partition died right now, I feel safe in saying that I'd "get by". But there are still dozens of applications that I haven't found a replacement for and many of the ones I have so far are rather lacking. But all in all, if I ever said that Ubuntu is just a toy -- it's a pretty bloody impressive one.

Oh, and I installed Google Toolbar. Works great.

MrLeN

3rdalbum
September 13th, 2006, 06:08 AM
If you like Ubuntu's speed already, find a HOWTO about running Prelink, and install the Preload package (the latter slows your startup a little).

1.2 gigs of RAM, prelinked and preloaded, and she flies on an entry-level processor! Have you tried your HTML editors on WINE yet?

MrLeN
September 13th, 2006, 06:43 AM
Actually, at the moment I haven't slept for 24 hours and I am in a state of shck from information overload. I don't even know how I got Wine working -- I just used the force I guess. Literally 1 day ago, I didn't know the first thing about a Linux desktop OS. So I am just trying to learn as much about it as I can in as little amount of time as I can. I have absolutely no idea how to get other programs working in wine. My brain is starting to fizzle out..

MrLeN

DoctorMO
September 13th, 2006, 06:49 AM
http://www.htmlkit.com/support/docs/pages/h000134.html

It looks like it's been running through wine for a while, and I thought someone said there was a linux version?

You can install flash into Firefox,

Wine works simply by creating a 'C' drive in ~/.wine/drive_c/ that is where you will find all your 'installed' windows files. and to run any windows executable run `wine myexe.exe`

elpuerco
September 13th, 2006, 08:34 AM
OK as it was me that started this thread I would like to undo it if that is possible?

As far as I am concerned now Linux floats my boat. I have managed to install Kubuntu on 4 computers myself and know of another one completed by someone else.

Therefore for me Kubuntu is tops and I am using it all the time at home.

My original statement 'Linux still has a way to go' is out of date!

I'm happy with Kubuntu :D :D :D

Zieher
September 13th, 2006, 09:51 AM
I actually read most of the posts in this threads, nodded a lot, shook my head a few times and eventually came to the same conclusion as the initiator:
Ubuntu rocks:
I have using M$ since 1988 and was finally happy with XP SP2, when consecutive performance-curtailing updates and the annoying account management castration of XP home drove me away.
A good friend (FreeBSD vet) pointed me to Ubuntu and I must say, I managed to install on three different machines in no time. The John Doe user can do it easily (to a plain vanilla install to mail and surf). My wife doesn't care as long as she gets her mails and firefox works. It is ppl like me, who want to sync the phone with the Jornada and the calendar via the single USB bt mouse cradle, that run into problems :D
Yes, Linux still has a way to go. But after a few days of playing around and customizing, I actually feel more comfortable with Ubuntu than I've ever felt with XP. (I still have my XP partitions on two machines, until total functionality is established - my CATIA workstation still runs XP, but is strictly offline). I have installed Ubuntu from LiveCD and Xubuntu from alternate (on a small, old laptop) and it has gone flawlessly. It was much easier than I thought, thanks to many how-to's the more special steps were also taken. Sometimes ppl just forget, that switching an OS is a big bite to take, and you'll need weeks if not months to attain the same proficiency as with the old OS.

Thanks to those already here, my steps have been brisk with few detours.

maniacmusician
September 13th, 2006, 01:49 PM
I think if you use the links to the scripts that i provided on the previous page, you'll probably get better results with IE.

Also, like I said, if you want to take the easy way around installing some "troublesome" things, you should consider Automatix (www.getautomatix.com)...it'll install java, multimedia codecs, flash (including plugin for FF), mplayer (including plugin for FF) and loads of helpful applications that I use everyday. it's marvelous. you can do all that yourself, of course, but it'll be harder. but i suppose you'll learn more.

AIM and Yahoo have their own clients for Linux...you can download and install those if you so please. MSN of course doesn't, so you'll have to live with a "clone" for that one. Or you can continue using gaim or kopete for all of those together.

It looks as if you're having a pretty good time with this. Dont hesitate to post if you need help,

have fun!

Tomosaur
September 13th, 2006, 01:59 PM
Also MrLen, I agree with you on the lack of right-click stuff. However, you can customise the right click menu very easily if you know anything about scripting. All you need to do is write a script which does what you want, then pop it into the nautilus_scripts directory (/home/you/.gnome2/nautilus_scripts/). Nautilus (your desktop/file manager) will automatically recognise your script and will add it to a 'Scripts' menu when you right click on your desktop.

prizrak
September 13th, 2006, 02:31 PM
The HTML editors don't even come close to HTML-Kit, which I used for the most part of every day online.
This seems to be the Linux version of it http://www.chami.com/html-kit/tools/linux/ I could be wrong. You can try Bluefish or Emacs the latter is a very powerful text editor with more options than your average OS and might be a pain in the *** to learn. Also someone else said there was a Linux version so if you look through the thread you might be able to find another link to it.

toasted
September 13th, 2006, 03:21 PM
Did you try Nvu?

Here's something else that might interest you
http://www.tatanka.com.br/ies4linux/index-en.html

Brunellus
September 13th, 2006, 03:25 PM
This seems to be the Linux version of it http://www.chami.com/html-kit/tools/linux/ I could be wrong. You can try Bluefish or Emacs the latter is a very powerful text editor with more options than your average OS and might be a pain in the *** to learn. Also someone else said there was a Linux version so if you look through the thread you might be able to find another link to it.
user is moving from Windows to Linux and complaining at every stage...therefore emacs is NOT, repeat NOT indicated. Nvu and Bluefish are probably the best bets here. Kate/Gedit are tied at a distant second.

MrLeN
September 13th, 2006, 03:44 PM
user is moving from Windows to Linux and complaining at every stage...therefore emacs is NOT, repeat NOT indicated. Nvu and Bluefish are probably the best bets here. Kate/Gedit are tied at a distant second.

Excuse me. I am certainly not complaining every step of the way. I am being as objective as I can possibly be. I really need people around here to give me a break. Comments like this are really starting to get on my nerves. I have praised Ubuntu heavily, but if I also state things that I do not like or wish for -- you can hardly say I am complaining the whole time. It's really unfair.

MrLeN

Brunellus
September 13th, 2006, 04:12 PM
Excuse me. I am certainly not complaining every step of the way. I am being as objective as I can possibly be. I really need people around here to give me a break. Comments like this are really starting to get on my nerves. I have praised Ubuntu heavily, but if I also state things that I do not like or wish for -- you can hardly say I am complaining the whole time. It's really unfair.

MrLeN
It would seem that we mutually unnerve each other, then. Your stated preferences are for Windows programs. You seem to indicate that running Windows programs, or running programs that are identical to Windows programs--are necessary conditions of your using the OS. You dismiss already existing alternatives out of hand as "inadequate" for vague reasons.

Given that you've established yourself on this thread as a more or less "hostile witness", it's very hard to be helpful!

hauling this back on topic: Text editors in linux and unix are non-trivial pieces of software. Even "basic" editors like Gedit (GNOME's text editor) have "lots of features" that are simply not found in something like, say, notepad--syntax highlighting comes immediately to mind. There also exist two larger integrated development environments for web design in Linux: nvu and Bluefish, both of which are quite well-regarded.

Another commenter suggested emacs. I would stay away from that for now if I were you. emacs is everything you're prepared to hate about Linux: obscure, keyboard-driven, and extensible to the point of incomprehensibility. Into the bargain, you get the fact that using/knowing emacs is an article of faith among many diehard free software junkies with itchy trigger fingers on their digital flamethrowers.

Trust me, you don't want that.

prizrak
September 13th, 2006, 04:48 PM
It would seem that we mutually unnerve each other, then. Your stated preferences are for Windows programs. You seem to indicate that running Windows programs, or running programs that are identical to Windows programs--are necessary conditions of your using the OS. You dismiss already existing alternatives out of hand as "inadequate" for vague reasons.

Given that you've established yourself on this thread as a more or less "hostile witness", it's very hard to be helpful!

hauling this back on topic: Text editors in linux and unix are non-trivial pieces of software. Even "basic" editors like Gedit (GNOME's text editor) have "lots of features" that are simply not found in something like, say, notepad--syntax highlighting comes immediately to mind. There also exist two larger integrated development environments for web design in Linux: nvu and Bluefish, both of which are quite well-regarded.

Another commenter suggested emacs. I would stay away from that for now if I were you. emacs is everything you're prepared to hate about Linux: obscure, keyboard-driven, and extensible to the point of incomprehensibility. Into the bargain, you get the fact that using/knowing emacs is an article of faith among many diehard free software junkies with itchy trigger fingers on their digital flamethrowers.

Trust me, you don't want that.

But pressing ctrl+alt+super+fn+f6+g+f12+d to move to the next line is so much fun :)

Lord Illidan
September 13th, 2006, 05:20 PM
I don't know. I am intrigued, so I'll give it a go. I really don't see any use for it personally, as anything else but a toy. But admittedly, my "life" revolves around online activity, and I work from home. So I am a tough customer. On the other hand, I don't think it would be a bad tool for an Internet beginner that just wants to view web pages and chat with their friends -- which must be what most people who use it are doing. I sincerely can't imagine anyone using Ubuntu as a standalone OS, while being able to do even half the things that their windows friends are doing without getting extremely frustrated.
MrLeN
I'm glad to see you are getting along well with Ubuntu, MrLen..

I take issue with this. I can do more things that my windows friends can do with Linux...and in comparison, they get extremely frustrated trying to do the things I can do.

1. Games - I play Quake 3, Tremulous, and a number of free games... They do too.
2. 3D Desktop - XGL/Compiz. They cannot do this.
3. No Defragmenting
4. Ability to have 40 windows open in the same time, with loads of processes running in the background, and using a cool expose` function to chose the one I need.
5.I program Turbo Pascal. Yes, they do this too..
6.I have learned more about computing by reading sourcecode and stuff than they ever will from reading windows source code...if they could.

Actually...Windows is a toy in my case...a toy because I sometimes use it to play some games which cannot run in Linux.

MrLeN
September 13th, 2006, 06:04 PM
Lord Illidan,


I'm glad to see you are getting along well with Ubuntu, MrLen..

I am getting along with Ubuntu just fine -- but this community is a whole other story.


I take issue with this. I can do more things that my windows friends can do with Linux...and in comparison, they get extremely frustrated trying to do the things I can do.

I am sure that's a factual statement.


1. Games - I play Quake 3, Tremulous, and a number of free games... They do too.

Great.


2. 3D Desktop - XGL/Compiz. They cannot do this.

Fantastic.


3. No Defragmenting

This is fantastic also -- I can't stand fragmentation issues caused by long hours of computer use.


4. Ability to have 40 windows open in the same time, with loads of processes running in the background, and using a cool expose` function to chose the one I need.

I noticed this also, and I LOVE that fact. It's a refreshing releif.


5.I program Turbo Pascal. Yes, they do this too..

Great


6.I have learned more about computing by reading sourcecode and stuff than they ever will from reading windows source code...if they could.

A great benefit.


Actually...Windows is a toy in my case...a toy because I sometimes use it to play some games which cannot run in Linux.

A valid point, if you only use Windows to play games and don't use the billions of dollars of software that 90% of online users use and communicate with each other with.

Now, I am just throwing this up in the air -- but would I be right to assume that you are defending Linux in comparison with Windows? This forum has confused me to the point where I think I have a couple of smoldering wires in my circuitry now, so I MAY be merely disillusioned, but am I correct I assuming that you feel that I am comparing Windows with Ubuntu, or that I have stated that Windows is better than Ubuntu?

Now, the above is just a guess (and I may be wrong), but if I am correct in my assumption, I'd like you to go back through all of my posts and try to find where I have stated that Windows is a better operating system than Ubuntu. As far as my memory serves me (and in the state of confusion that I am in right now, again, I may be disillusioned) but I think you'll find comments like:

- I can't stand Windows crashing.
- I can't stand Windows fragmentation issues
- I WISH that I could use Linux full time
- I am HOPING (and trying) that I can get enough stuff running on Ubuntu that I can at least consider a conversion
- I use Linux servers
- 25% of the Internet use Linux servers
- I am a fan of Linux
- I can't stand Windows crashing
- I stated in my first post that unless I can use Windows software, or at least a decent replacement then Ubuntu will be more of a toy (to me).
- Note that I have repeatedly stated that I do NOT view "Linux" to be a toy, as it is very popular and BILLIONS of dollars are being made from it online.
- I spend 24 hours yesterday giving Ubuntu an honest go

I think that responses to my threads have become responses of sentiments caused by a few on this community who have taken exception to a handful of my statements (fueled by previous arguments that I am not even aware of), even though I have posted many, many good things about Ubuntu.

I am indeed being objective. I am defending myself against things which I did not say and against views that I do not even hold. This is giving my posts a larger negative sentiment and no matter what I say; the more I post, the more it seems as though I am reiterating negative things about Ubuntu. Why can't you all just leave me alone and let me try Ubuntu?

MrLeN

aysiu
September 13th, 2006, 06:22 PM
Maybe if you hadn't...

* provided your "conclusion of Ubuntu as a user candidate" before even installing it

* insisted that Ubuntu is a toy (yes, I know you've since regretted that statement--but you did state it more than once)

* insisted that Ubuntu needs to run Windows software to succeed

* gone on and on about how much money you've spent on your Windows software

... then people wouldn't have told you Ubuntu is probably not for you, gotten the impression you think Windows is better than Ubuntu, and become defensive in the first place.

I truly believe you are sincere and believe yourself to be unbiased, but I also think you went about this the wrong way.

It makes a lot more sense to not make judgments before you install Ubuntu and later on say you're "impressed." Ask a lot of questions and reserve your judgments until later.

This would have been (of course, in hindsight) a much more appropriate thread title:
Still considering Ubuntu and then a more appropriate post
I really want to try Ubuntu just for fun. I have a second PC I can install it on. I need Windows software, and I've already paid money for it, but if, for some reason, I find Ubuntu suits my needs, I might start using it more often. I'm downloading the ISO right now. I'll let you know if I have questions. Then your thread wouldn't have been as long, there wouldn't have been any arguments or people getting defensive. You would have gotten a lot of responses like
It's a great thing to have a spare computer or
Sounds like a plan! Just let us know what problems you encounter, and we'll try to help

MrLeN
September 13th, 2006, 06:46 PM
* provided your "conclusion of Ubuntu as a user candidate" before even installing it

I think you have a problem with the English language. I did not title the post:

"My Conclusion of Ubuntu as an Operating System"

I titled my thread:

"My conclusion of Ubuntu as a USER CANDIDATE"

Now if you don't get the difference, let me explain that the title is to say that the post is in regards to my conclusion of Ubuntu from what I had learned at that time, from investigating Ubuntu shortly after installation. Note, that the word candidate clearly indicates that I was not posting in a light where I had conclusively finished investigating Ubuntu. Therefore, any reader who can understand English could only come to the logical conclusion that any comments I made at that point where those of a "User Candidate" who was in the process of trying Ubuntu. The comments I made in my post were made in that light, and from what I had learned about Ubuntu to that point.

I have always intended to make a third post titled:

"My Conclusion of Ubuntu as an Operating System"

..and the way things are going, I am starting to doubt whether I am going to make it that far.



* insisted that Ubuntu is a toy (yes, I know you've since regretted that statement--but you did state it more than once)

Look, to be perfectly honest, I don't regret that statement. I merely apologized for it because it upset a "few" people, and the uproar was ruining my posts and turning it into a flame thread -- which I have taken great pains to try not to fall into.


* insisted that Ubuntu needs to run Windows software to succeed

I still absolutely hold that view. Ubuntu will not become a mainstream OS (at least inside the next decade), if it cannot run the software that has already been developed in the world (aside from the fact that it's "Windows" software); the software that 90% of people use and have purchased. And as much as people around here try to insist that there are replacements, there is an ABYSS between Linux OS software and Windows. I have purposefully tried not to enter that argument, because this thread is messed up enough as it is, but I could easily write a 35 paragraph post on why Windows is more useful than Ubuntu, exclusively because if the sheer amount of commercial (and free) software available for it. But that's just common sense. It's certainly nothing worth "defending" or getting upset over. It's just plain fact. Simple as that.


* gone on and on about how much money you've spent on your Windows software

This is just a lie. I mentioned once in my first post that I have purchased software. I certainly have not gone on and on about it. I have (though) insisted that while the world has invested billions of dollars into Windows software, that very few people are going to start using a Linux OS unless they can use their software. People around here can argue with me on that issue until their toenails go green -- but nevertheless, it's an irrefutable fact.


... then people wouldn't have told you Ubuntu is probably not for you, gotten the impression you think Windows is better than Ubuntu, and become defensive in the first place.

This is where people around here are tripping. I am shaking my head.

MrLeN

monktbd
September 13th, 2006, 07:05 PM
but I could easily write a 35 paragraph post on why Windows is more useful than Ubuntu, exclusively because if the sheer amount of commercial (and free) software available for it. But that's just common sense. It's certainly nothing worth "defending" or getting upset over. It's just plain fact. Simple as that.

maybe this is true for a majority of people who use computers.
but this is not true for me personally thinking about my home desktop machine. that is also a plain fact and very simple.

mark shuttleworth has the goal to compete with ubuntu against windows (to get let's say 15-30% of the desktops using some sort of linux). i really doubt he will succeed in the near or middle future with this goal.
i personally dont mind at all. i am happy with the operating system i can use at home but at the same time understand that there are people who cannot switch because they are dependant on some applications, dont want to switch because they like windows or cannot/dont want/are afraid of switching because of lack of knowledge and interest and maybe time.

prizrak
September 13th, 2006, 07:26 PM
This is just a lie. I mentioned once in my first post that I have purchased software. I certainly have not gone on and on about it. I have (though) insisted that while the world has invested billions of dollars into Windows software, that very few people are going to start using a Linux OS unless they can use their software. People around here can argue with me on that issue until their toenails go green -- but nevertheless, it's an irrefutable fact.


I still absolutely hold that view. Ubuntu will not become a mainstream OS (at least inside the next decade), if it cannot run the software that has already been developed in the world (aside from the fact that it's "Windows" software); the software that 90% of people use and have purchased. And as much as people around here try to insist that there are replacements, there is an ABYSS between Linux OS software and Windows. I have purposefully tried not to enter that argument, because this thread is messed up enough as it is, but I could easily write a 35 paragraph post on why Windows is more useful than Ubuntu, exclusively because if the sheer amount of commercial (and free) software available for it. But that's just common sense. It's certainly nothing worth "defending" or getting upset over. It's just plain fact. Simple as that.
That is YOUR opinion. There are millions of people who would disagree with you.

There is a question for you. Would you consider OS X to be nothing but a toy? Would you say that OS X needs to have Windows software to succeed and be accepted? Or would you say that if Apple dropped the prices for their systems to the level of PC's and introduced a tablet/convertible power/ibook they could win over quite a few Windows users? If you say 'Yes' to the latter then why would you say that Linux couldn't do it?

Also you are stuck in Westerncentric (yes I made it up) frame of mind. In the EU, US, Australia and Canada Windows is the OS of choice simply because of how long it has been around. People got used to the interface (which has been changed drastically in Vista) and the software. In India, China, Africa and other developing regions + Japan Linux is a very strong force. FOSS nature of it allows for quick and easy localization, the low cost of the software (most of it is free as in beer) and the fact that it is freely redistrubuteable makes it a viable choice for countries that are not as well off as the West. (Japan is a different beast alltogether, they are just trying to break free from US's grip on their economy). Those people don't have any applications they are used and they haven't gotten used to seeing Windows everywhere.

To add to the point of software, there is no question that alot of software is made for Windows and that both sides have excellent and crappy software alike. However Firefox showed that people do try alternatives. FF is used by over 10% of the users, all those users can switch over to Ubuntu right now and not have to miss their web browser. Also the 90% of users that you are talking about most likely do not use any specialized software, they are likely to be using w/e came with Windows.

As a case in point my mother (complete computer retard can't even use the search feature in Outlook) used my old laptop without realizing it had Ubuntu on it or that my e-mail program was Thunderbird. Also you have to remember that up until 10 years ago an average computer user used DOS and didn't seem to have a problem :)

aysiu
September 13th, 2006, 07:26 PM
And you get upset when people call you a troll...

Brunellus
September 13th, 2006, 07:32 PM
If you want to be pedantic about the grammar and syntax, then a valid objection can be raised to the use of the word "conclusion" in the thread title. Nothing in its substance is conclusory: at the point of its writing, the statement was wholly speculative.

The mere fact that software exists that runs on Windows does not inevitably bind users to that software any more than users are bound to any single web browser, text editor, word processor, music player, or any other form of software. NCSA Mosaic was overtaken by Netscape Navigator, which itself was overtaken by Microsoft Internet Explorer; users migrated from one browser to another without any problem.

I think the main point of disagreement between you and us, Mr. LeN, is that you understand the problem to be merely the running of specific *software.* We understand the problem to be that of achieving certain *tasks*, which may or may not use or require identical software.

In the server room, this is already well-understood. Of COURSE, there is a perfectly good web server that Microsoft puts out to run on Windows. It's called IIS. Following your logic, it would be impossible for server administrators to switch their web servers from Windows servers runnign IIS, since IIS cannot run on any other OS. But the plain fact is that server administrators have been moving, increasingly, to non-Windows operating systems running Apache--a program that is not idetnical to IIS, but accomplishes the same thing.

So obviously Linux is ready for the server. But is Linux Ready For The Desktop (TM)? The answer is "it depends what you mean by 'ready'."

For most of us, it is not only ready, but present. The tasks that we perform are adequately (or better) performed in a Linux environment without Windows. That's a fact.

For you, it isn't--or at least, not ready for "prime time." You have consistently maintained your need for windows-only applications, even in the face of posts suggesting alternatives and replacements. In your "conclusions" (which, I repeat once again, are properly speculative, not conclusory), you set the bar of acceptability very high, expecting nearly-complete compatibility. This is a fact; do not take this as mere spleen or rancor directed at you.

LuisC-SM
September 13th, 2006, 08:02 PM
Hi.
To: The original Poster

Firstoff, wellcome to one of the best and friendly distros all over the planet.

Like you, I had a very similar work until I dropped it and started a new one.

According to your job, there is no way you can move frome MS window$ to ubuntu. That's a fact!!! You will not find an all-feature kind of replacement for Dreamweaver or Flash. (Some people who don't really know about dreamweaver think that NVU is quite alike, but that's not truth. NVU does not handle PHP and they have no intentiions to do so, just to mention one difference).

I do not use window$ anymore cause I really don't need it. Even when I still have a valid licence for Macromedia Studio 2004, Adobe Photoshop CS, and Adobe Premier 1.5, etc., as I said before, I had to move to a new and different job to be able to mantain my family specs of life.

I started to use Linux as a hobby in 2004 (just like u right now), although I complain everyday about crashes, virus, malware, etc., that was my way of life. One day I had a major virus problem, lost money with a client and that day was the last day of my life using window$.

In my home, my wife uses Xandros, my eldest daughter uses Linspire 5.0 and my 2 smaller children use Kunbuntu 5.10 and Edubuntu 5.10. I personally use Ubuntu 6.06 and we all are happy ever since.

What I wanted to tell u about my story is that; in my particular case, there is no need to use any MS OS'cause we do not need it anymore, but u sure need it and don't see why u should stop using it if, as u said, linux is still very young and there are still not enough tools to make the final move.

I really hope u start someday playing with linux (no matter which distro) just for the fun of it. Sooner or later u will discover a new nice and different world.

Kind Regards

Luis C. Suárez

PS. I strongly suggest u use ubuntu server to store your files just in case someday u have a virus attack which derives in lost or corruption of your files.

MrLeN
September 13th, 2006, 09:06 PM
monktdb,


maybe this is true for a majority of people who use computers.
but this is not true for me personally thinking about my home desktop machine. that is also a plain fact and very simple.

I don't have a problem with that comment.


mark shuttleworth has the goal to compete with ubuntu against windows (to get let's say 15-30% of the desktops using some sort of linux). i really doubt he will succeed in the near or middle future with this goal.

He will if Linux OS's can run Windows applications -- or, if he is a fantastic marketer and can start getting companies to develop commercial software for Linux. It's a sad fact that the world is greedy and revolves around money. As long as commercial enterprise is largely ignoring Linux as an OS -- then unfortunately, it just wont ever become a mainstream OS in the near future -- or as you said: even the middle future.

prizrak,


That is YOUR opinion. There are millions of people who would disagree with you.

Of course.


There is a question for you. Would you consider OS X to be nothing but a toy? Would you say that OS X needs to have Windows software to succeed and be accepted? Or would you say that if Apple dropped the prices for their systems to the level of PC's and introduced a tablet/convertible power/ibook they could win over quite a few Windows users?

I have already mentioned this in a previous post. I have explained why Microsoft is doing better than Apple. Apple has its benefits, and to my knowledge has superior graphics ability to Windows. Apple also has the iPod which has boosted sales.

However, if you want my opinion on why Apple is less popular than Windows, it's because commercial enterprise builds software for Windows. Plus, they got a head start -- they partnered with IBM and stated the Internet revolution, which left Apple in the dust. But Apple is a more innovative company than Microsoft in the way of hardware. Microsoft is not a hardware company. It's a software company. Therefore, they are really not even the same thing. Microsoft is winning the battle because of business decisions, not because they are better. Personally, I'd rather see a world full of Apples -- but as long as the mainstream is using Windows and that's where all the opportunity and growth is, and as long as almost everybody online communicates and associates with each other via software that has been developed fro Windows, and if I want to tap into that, I need to run Windows. Because of the differences between Apple and Microsoft, I can't see Apple going anywhere. I just hope they keep up their innovative approach and develop more technology which will give them a larger market share.

Brunellus,


If you want to be pedantic about the grammar and syntax, then a valid objection can be raised to the use of the word "conclusion" in the thread title. Nothing in its substance is conclusory: at the point of its writing, the statement was wholly speculative.

I was not being pedantic. I was defending myself from being cast into a light that's contradictory to what I have actually stated.


The mere fact that software exists that runs on Windows does not inevitably bind users to that software any more than users are bound to any single web browser, text editor, word processor, music player, or any other form of software. NCSA Mosaic was overtaken by Netscape Navigator, which itself was overtaken by Microsoft Internet Explorer; users migrated from one browser to another without any problem.

I can't make sense of the above paragraph. I can't see the correlation.


I think the main point of disagreement between you and us, Mr. LeN, is that you understand the problem to be merely the running of specific *software.* We understand the problem to be that of achieving certain *tasks*, which may or may not use or require identical software.

Yes, I believe that the mainstream, OS will be the one that's having all the software developed for it. As long as Linux software is being developed by a relatively small community of OS'ers, and as long as Windows software is having billions of dollars pumped into it, very few will want to "migrate".


In the server room, this is already well-understood. Of COURSE, there is a perfectly good web server that Microsoft puts out to run on Windows. It's called IIS. Following your logic, it would be impossible for server administrators to switch their web servers from Windows servers runnign IIS, since IIS cannot run on any other OS. But the plain fact is that server administrators have been moving, increasingly, to non-Windows operating systems running Apache--a program that is not idetnical to IIS, but accomplishes the same thing.

I don't know why you decided to lecture me on the usefulness of Linux as a server. I have literally lost count of the amount of statements that I've made that support what you're trying to tell me. Why do I have to constantly assert that I agree? I am sure than in 2 pages from now, someone is going to say: MrLeN There are heaps of servers running Linux. Hey, I know. I have Linux servers myself. I know that they are growing, and I wholeheartedly believe that the Linux server will keep growing, as it has already entered mainstream use.

Nevertheless, it is not impossible for server administrators to move from Windows to Linux, but if they do so, they're going to need Linux software -- and there's HEAPS of Linux server software, and in my opinion it's a whole lot better (and easier to use) that Windows server software -- plus it's mostly free. The Linux server revolution is well underway, there's no doubt about that. But to move from a windows server to a Linux server requires that the software can at the very least be converted (which it sometimes can), or at worse can't be used at all -- and alternative software needs to be used.


So obviously Linux is ready for the server. But is Linux Ready For The Desktop (TM)? The answer is "it depends what you mean by 'ready'."

Linux is obviously ready for the Desktop. I have it running on my desktop, and it is running absolutely fine. I have enjoyed the experience, and it was impressively easy to install. But I am not one of those "Linux is not ready for the Desktop" people that you seem to be making me out to be (nor did I even realize that such people exist -- I was oblivious until I was accused). Just because I said that it would be a benefit for Linux desktops to be able to utilize Windows software, it doesn't mean you should start treating me as some sort of Pro Windows Advocate cross Linux basher. It was a statement, and I still believe the statement to be true, so why can't you just leave it at that?


For most of us, it is not only ready, but present.

Most of you? You mean most Linux users? I don't agree. As far as I can tell, most if you also use Windows as well. Or do you mean most people? I really don't think you mean most people, so I'll just stop here.


The tasks that we perform are adequately (or better) performed in a Linux environment without Windows. That's a fact.

I don't dispute that at all. As a matter of fact I agree. I have found that Ubuntu runs extremely fast, and allows me to have HEAPS of processes running at once and it does not slow down. It's remarkable. But if I am disheartened by the fact that one world has an endless array of software, much of which is utilized by commercial industry and one world has a comparatively limited array of software, much of which will not work properly with the software that the rest of the Internet is using -- or just plain doesn't exist, then does that make me a target for abuse?


For you, it isn't--or at least, not ready for "prime time."

Yes, that's my view.


You have consistently maintained your need for windows-only applications,

Actually, no. I just motioned it. What I really wanted to do was just post about my experiences (which were mostly praises), but many people here decided to dedicate the last 10 pages arguing about what I said on the first page -- and have spent very little time responding to anything else that I've said or tried to asset, including praise for Ubuntu.


even in the face of posts suggesting alternatives and replacements.

Look, I am going to be blunt. Most of the "replacements" leave a LOT to be desired. Sure, they do the job, but in many cases that's about it. It's just a fact that the sheer amount of options aren't there, compared to Windows. It's all well and good to say: "Well for ME it is good, and for ME it does the job and for ME I don't need anything more, but unfortunately the rest of the known world has far superior options and choice because of commercial software.

But this is just fact. I do not understand why people want to argue with me about it. Do you want to beat me into a pulp until I submit and say: "Ok ok, Linux software will do", "And I feel dirty for wishing that Ubuntu had the amount of software options that Windows does". I am just plain not going to say that. But that doesn't mean I am not willing to try. It doesn't mean I will not investigate. Why do people around here get so defensive when I merely state facts? What, should we all just rant on about how useful Ubuntu is, and how it is so ready for prime time and that it has everything you need? Well, I can't because it's just plain not true. I am not unhappy about that. I am not trying to dwell on that. but For saying it I have had to spend 10 pages defending myself against statements like: "You have consistently maintained your need for windows-only applications, even in the face of posts suggesting alternatives and replacements." No I have NOT. It is a few in the community (mainly you) that is "consistently maintaining" this argument.


In your "conclusions" (which, I repeat once again, are properly speculative, not conclusory), you set the bar of acceptability very high, expecting nearly-complete compatibility. This is a fact; do not take this as mere spleen or rancor directed at you.

I absolutely not once anywhere said that I expect near complete compatibility. What I said is that the only way Linux as an OS will achieve mainstream success is VIA compatibility. Let there be no confusion. I fully understand that Linux is not Windows, but just because I said I would like to be able to launch Windows applications, it doesn't mean I should have to defend myself for 10 pages, while just trying to discuss Ubuntu.

LuisC-SM,


Firstoff, wellcome to one of the best and friendly distros all over the planet.

Thanks.


According to your job, there is no way you can move frome MS window$ to ubuntu. That's a fact!!! You will not find an all-feature kind of replacement for Dreamweaver or Flash. (Some people who don't really know about dreamweaver think that NVU is quite alike, but that's not truth. NVU does not handle PHP and they have no intentiions to do so, just to mention one difference).

I think that some people around here just don't understand how much eCommerce is driven by windows software. As far as I can see, Bantu will allow users to do pretty much all standard things, but if you want to do anything at all relating to commerce -- forget it. Therefore, Ubuntu is not really an option for anyone who wants to interact with the Internet financially -- and if you're not interacting financially, you're playing. I'm sure that many users do some pretty useful stuff like online banking, creating websites, and programming (I'd think mostly programming).. but I can't imagine any company employees or online Entrepreneurs using Ubuntu for the development of their website (apart from the programming/coding aspect of it). I can't use MSN, I can't use iTunes, I can't use some very important toolbars that were written only for ie, I can't use any high end software that really allows me to power through the Internet. I spent at least 2-3 hours yesterday researching software, and I have to say -- unless I was looking in all the wrong places, options are extremely limited. But I am not complaining about that. I merely mentioned that as someone who relies on Internet eCommerce for a living, then Ubuntu wouldn't be useful to me as anything but a toy. But somehow, people are pushing me until I feel like just saying "ARCH!" and dedicating an entire day to pointing out every disadvantage, since I am constantly being told that there is vary little disadvantage. I don't WANT to do that, but I feel backed into that corner. It is not my purpose to come here and complain, but I am starting to thing that the only way to get people off my back with their constant statements that I am wrong wrong wrong, is to pull out some massive cannons and blow the whole lot of them into tomorrow with facts.


PS. I strongly suggest u use ubuntu server to store your files just in case someday u have a virus attack which derives in lost or corruption of your files.

I already have my external HDD, where I store important files. That way I can access my files when Windows is loaded, as well as when Ubuntu is loaded. Except for some reason, it's not working in Ubuntu. It was -- but has since stopped. I need to try and find a way to get Ubuntu to recognize the drive again.

MrLeN

DoctorMO
September 13th, 2006, 09:20 PM
Ah well I don't believe in propritory software development, all those billions are wasted in my eyes because I don't have access to the source code they might as well be phantom pounds. such is life, money is only an idea anyway nothing to really attribute much value to either.

now toolbars, yes I think you will have luck finding features available as firefox plugins, you might find a lot of nice feature in Konqueror.

eCommerce... yes, I'm a developer for Venda and I've never had a windows machine in work or home for the past 5 years. yes eCommerce is quite easy with Ubuntu really. development of graphics and design with inkscape, html creating in gedit because I _like_ editing html. using auto refresh in konquorer to see the changes and developing the back end on the local machine with MySQL/Postgres and Perl/Ruby. it just all seems to fit together nicly.

But then in some instances such as inkscape, it's not going to beat Illerstrator on functionality. but because illerstrator isn't even avilable for my platform to me it's not even an option and the feature that are in inkscapre are the only ones that really exist. selective featurism I know, but it gets me to sleep at night.

Brunellus
September 13th, 2006, 09:23 PM
Most "active" forum members run Linux as their primary OS on computers they control.


As for me, personally: I am obliged by my employer to use Windows at the computer on my desk at work, since I don't have control of that computer. I also maintain a Windows partition on my home computer, which I use (very) infrequently to use applications that I can't yet use in Linux. None of those applications are critical to my day-to-day computing existence.



Look, I am going to be blunt. Most of the "replacements" leave a LOT to be desired. Sure, they do the job, but in many cases that's about it. It's just a fact that the sheer amount of options aren't there, compared to Windows. It's all well and good to say: "Well for ME it is good, and for ME it does the job and for ME I don't need anything more, but unfortunately the rest of the known world has far superior options and choice because of commercial software.

You have once again dismissed a large and varied group of applications and projects--each of which varies in terms of its usefulness, maturity, and so forth--with a blanket statement of inadequacy. It isn't "this OS sucks!" by any means--we'll get a lot of those posts soon enough--but it's pretty darn close: "all your apps suck!"

We are perfectly willing to debate and discuss *individual* failngs of *individual* software packages with respect to their equivalents in other operating systems: Apple users, for instance, like to point out that their Safari browser is a technically superior browser to Mozilla Firefox for a number of specific reasons. Likewise, there are good, technical reasons to prefer PhotoShop to the GIMP.

But it is quite another thing to say, without reference to anything, that the "replacements" are ALL inadequate. A categorical statement which cannot be logically proven and/or is not self-evident, and/or has no concrete facts on which it relies for support is NOT a "fact." It is an opinion.

jfl
September 13th, 2006, 09:28 PM
A few months ago I was in the same situation ...
I ran quite a few OS in the past 3 decades or so
It is only with Windows 2000 that I finally gave up on OS/2.
Win 2K is a pretty stable OS (for windows) but I have something against Micro$oft ...
We have 4 computers in the office.
One of them is mostly for apartment managment; for us it is a "critical" mission. I switched it to Ubuntu (Breezy) and used the OpenOffice suite for which I have no real complaints (coming from Lotus SmartSuite).
Of course it is not always easy; our CPA insists in getting the data in Quickbooks floppy. I didn't try it with Wine ... yet.
I do a lot of (simple) photo editing; I have been using Paint Shop Pro since it was Shareware, I know it like the back of my hand !!! It is going to take time to learn a new application ...

But Ubuntu is growing on me; I like the concept, I love the support and the safety is priceless. I will probably be 75% Linux by next summer.
I started to work on computers many years before IBM launched the first PC and I must have a DOS v1.0 in my library !!!
So, changing my ways is not something new and I actually enjoy learning new stuff.
BTW, I have not had a problem moving my files between my Windoze (NTFS)and Ubuntu machines, so I am pretty happy with this setup, for now.
My experience in life is that the perfect (OS, job, friend, wife) does not exist, it is always a compromise; how much or how little is different for everybody, but considering you seem to make a bona fide research, my opinion is: give it a try with low expectations, you'll have a pleasant surprise ...
Good luck.

MrLeN
September 13th, 2006, 09:34 PM
DoctorMO,


Ah well I don't believe in propritory software development, all those billions are wasted in my eyes because I don't have access to the source code they might as well be phantom pounds. such is life, money is only an idea anyway nothing to really attribute much value to either.

I'm not much of a fan of the way this world system runs either. Nevertheless, if I want to be a part of the world, I have to go with the flow. Personally, I am against capitalism, but that's a whole new topic -- and one which I have debated online for days, and boy I got a "REAL" beating over that. Some people just don't get it.


now toolbars, yes I think you will have luck finding features available as firefox plugins, you might find a lot of nice feature in Konqueror.

I found Google toolbar, but I also want to use Trellian Toobar. Some people may not know who Trellian are, but suffice to say that in the near future, you all will -- especially if you run a website and need to concern yourself with SEO.


eCommerce... yes, I'm a developer for Venda

I stated that I can see already that Ubuntu should be fine for programming and coding.


and I've never had a windows machine in work or home for the past 5 years. yes eCommerce is quite easy with Ubuntu really. development of graphics and design with inkscape, html creating in gedit because I _like_ editing html. using auto refresh in konquorer to see the changes and developing the back end on the local machine with MySQL/Postgres and Perl/Ruby. it just all seems to fit together nicly.

Developing a website is not eCommerce. The development of a website is a grain of sand on the beach in relation to eCommerce. As long as the commercial world is building software for Windows, Linux users will always view in awe of programs like iTunes. It's not just browsers and websites online, and it's not just every day document software, email clients and standard file types. The Internet is FULL if impressive software that costs companies millions of dollars to develop, and are maintained on server clusters and networks that cost millions to run. There's no way a free OS is every going to be able to plug into that unless it can plug into the commercial world. The best way I see that happening is to get Windows programs running in Linux -- Wine is a great start, and such developments are only hope for the mainstream Linux as a desktop OS.

MrLeN

Brunellus
September 13th, 2006, 09:41 PM
Developing a website is not eCommerce. The development of a website is a grain of sand on the beach in relation to eCommerce. As long as the commercial world is building software for Windows, Linux users will always view in awe of programs like iTunes. It's not just browsers and websites online, and it's not just every day document software, email clients and standard file types. The Internet is FULL if impressive software that costs companies millions of dollars to develop, and are maintained on server clusters and networks that cost millions to run. There's no way a free OS is every going to be able to plug into that unless it can plug into the commercial world. The best way I see that happening is to get Windows programs running in Linux -- Wine is a great start, and such developments are only hope for the mainstream Linux as a desktop OS.


I think you're really off-base here.

Linux development is not all free of charge, volunteer, or ad-hoc. Folks wake up in the morning and get paid to do work on Linux and other Free Software. RedHat and Novell spend quite a bit of money paying developers to write Free Software. Not big enough? IBM has staked its corporate future on Linux adoption in the enterprise; we have developers in the employ of Big Blue to thank for a lot of contributions to the kernel lately.

The target audience for desktop conversions is NOT the individual, atomized home user. No OS will be ready for them, really. The target audience for desktop Linux is the medium to large scale corporation, which stands to gain considerably from a migration to Linux.

Linux is more plugged into commerce and industry than you seem to be willing to admit. Did you use a search engine today? If it was Yahoo or Google, you used Linux. Shocked?

DoctorMO
September 13th, 2006, 09:50 PM
Developing a website is not eCommerce. The development of a website is a grain of sand on the beach in relation to eCommerce.

No I must disagree, do you think iTunes uses a windows network to host it's music? as for the application i don't see the power. the real power in iTunes is that it's managed to bang the heads of the busic biz together in order to pull off an impresive collection of content.

I don't see much windows development for eCommerce, not apps. I see the odd small project been done in .Net but they have real trouble dealing with their production staff because the templating is unclean and non trivial when the site gets big.

As for applications, I hardly know any that pull in money the way websites currently do. and we in the Linux biz are currently fighting hard and long all the content companies that think locking their content is the right way to go when in fact it hurts everyones pocket.

According to recent polls the number of developers currently employed around the world in Linux and Windows show that Linux has taken the lead. which would sujest that while there arn't so many developers working on Linux it's self from the big corps such as Adobe there are develoeprs working on it as a platform.

There are also lots of comercial applications in Linux not not many people know of; Music and Video apps mostly but there are a few html and other interesting applications. mostly developed by SMEs too.

graigsmith
September 13th, 2006, 09:56 PM
Ubuntu needs somthing like the .exe file, where all u have to do is run it and the program installs instead of having to go through command line installing individual pieces. I know it has a package manager but if the app isnt in the package manager it is a serious pain to install.

this is the biggest security flaw ever, and you want to include it in an already secure os?

brickhead20
September 13th, 2006, 10:06 PM
The difference between Linux (as with all open source) is in the philosophy that drives it. It is true that there are regular problems with hardware (nods menacingly at ATI and various WiFi card manufacturers), but these can be fixed, and these forums make it a little less painful. Whilst you may suffer with driver problems, you enjoy software in the true spirit of cooperation, and without proprietary limitations.

If you use windows, you feed the giant coorporate machine that destroys all essences of freedom and cooperation amongst people, prefering the limitation of knowledge and cooporate greed to feed its own dead end machine that can never gow beyond its own pocket, and will forever totally miss the point of a socialist enlightened understanding. It is true that problems are sourced from companies that refuse to cooperate properly with linux communities, especially communitees based aorund ubuntu, where all core software is strictly open source. I choose linux on that core political belief. And also, coz its cool. So choose windows if you must, but at the core linux is pure.

MrLeN
September 13th, 2006, 10:24 PM
Brunellus,


Linux development is not all free of charge, volunteer, or ad-hoc.

It is mostly. It stared as a university project for good marks, did it not? I have already stated that 25% of the Internet is running Linux servers and that billions of dollars are being made in Linux environments. Therefore, it's only natural that with that profit, wages will be paid.


Folks wake up in the morning and get paid to do work on Linux and other Free Software. RedHat and Novell spend quite a bit of money paying developers to write Free Software. Not big enough? IBM has staked its corporate future on Linux adoption in the enterprise; we have developers in the employ of Big Blue to thank for a lot of contributions to the kernel lately.

I know that not every single person who sets their eyes on Linux code is not doing it for free.


The target audience for desktop conversions is NOT the individual, atomized home user. No OS will be ready for them, really. The target audience for desktop Linux is the medium to large scale corporation, which stands to gain considerably from a migration to Linux.

Says who? As far as I can see, programs like Ubuntu are aimed at the home user. If you're speaking of Debian, then yes I agree.

Also, doesn't practically every IT advancement (with financial gains attached) start in industry? Because that's where the money is. If Linux as a desktop OS can take of in industry, and as dollars are pumped into it, I can see that it will enter household desktops soon afterwards. But as far as I can see, 90% most commercial desktops run Windows (and many Mac's; more than the home).


Linux is more plugged into commerce and industry than you seem to be willing to admit. Did you use a search engine today? If it was Yahoo or Google, you used Linux. Shocked?

Not at all. I have already stated that Linux has entered mainstream use for servers and that I think it will keep growing.

DoctorMO,


No I must disagree, do you think iTunes uses a windows network to host it's music? as for the application i don't see the power. the real power in iTunes is that it's managed to bang the heads of the busic biz together in order to pull off an impresive collection of content.

I listen to radio stations and purchase music from a Windows based iTunes client. I can't see myself being able to do that on Ubuntu in the near future. The reason I pointed out iTunes was not iTunes in itself, but the representation. There are heaps of multimillion dollar and billion dollar companies creating excellent clients and software that runs in Windows (and then Mac), and as technology progresses (and it's progressing faster and faster each day), that software is going to become increasingly spectacular and harder for the Linux community to keep up with, unless commercial enterprises start coding for Linux desktops.


I don't see much windows development for eCommerce, not apps. I see the odd small project been done in .Net but they have real trouble dealing with their production staff because the templating is unclean and non trivial when the site gets big.

Are you asking for a lecture? Is that an invitation?


According to recent polls the number of developers currently employed around the world in Linux and Windows show that Linux has taken the lead. which would sujest that while there arn't so many developers working on Linux it's self from the big corps such as Adobe there are develoeprs working on it as a platform.

Servers.


There are also lots of comercial applications in Linux not not many people know of; Music and Video apps mostly but there are a few html and other interesting applications. mostly developed by SMEs too.

Good, where are they? I am keenly interested (really).

MrLeN

Brunellus
September 13th, 2006, 10:37 PM
http://www.canonical.com/support

Canonical's main aim in providing ubuntu is selling support to large firms which might decide to adopt it. That ubuntu is usable by home users is a happy consequence. The principal market for IBM's original Model 5150 Personal Computer was NOT home users by any stretch, but the corporate world. That it was "cheap enough" and "usable enough" by the standards of the day also made it usable by home users...but only after it had been adopted in large numbers by business and industry.

Going after atomized home users is a futile strategy, from a business perspective. Apple has tried it since 1984, and continues to fail to make any meaningful dent in total OS marketshare. The whole world went to IBM/Intel/Microsoft because that's what they were also using at the office. Any mass migration to Linux would probably come from that direction.

Is it very likely? Who knows? You're quite fond of pointing out the outstanding software migration issues. There have also been some rather rather sobering analyses (http://osdir.com/Article3992.phtml) about the financial and technical difficulties invovled in such a move. On the other hand, the potential benefits might prompt a reevaluation.

In the end, the whole problem of which OS the *client* system is running may become increasingly irrelevant. What happens if a large organization embraces a Thin Client model, with stateless or minimally-capable thin clients accessing resources from a central server? The operating system ceases to be relevant to the user in that case, and the advantages could be compelling: lower energy costs, greater flexibility, data security, and so forth.

Adamant1988
September 13th, 2006, 10:42 PM
Yeah, I have skimmed this thread a little, just to get the gist of it.

All I have to say is this, do people complain about this stuff on Apple's forums? Honestly, I want to see what would happen if anyone went on a prominent Mac OS X forum demanding that a button be added to "launch windows".

Should Linux have self installing packages? I agree that those make things easier, the repos can't have everything, but IMO the repo system is better and much more secure.

I don't expect Linux to run my windows programs and anyone who has that expectation should really seriously have researced the differences in the operating systems before they even made the jump. Yes, it's nice if you can get WINE or Crossover to run a windows program that you like, but you shouldn't expect it. That's like going to a sea-food place and expecting hamburgers and other fast food items to be more prominent on the menu than fish. =\

Lord Illidan
September 13th, 2006, 11:03 PM
Look MrLen... I agree with you up to a few points.

We do need better applications for certain tasks. That's right, we lack professional image editing tools like Photoshop (GIMP is a bit behind), but for most of the applications you mention, the linux equivalents are better. It may be more worthwhile learning to use them.

Does Linux need better software to advance? To take over Windows? Yes, definitely...but it is not the main aim. Our aim is not to overtake Windows and crush Microsoft.

Is Linux easier to use? Depends on your point of view. IMHO, it is easier..I don't have to format, like I needed to do with XP.

Right now, you may be thinking we are very unfriendly guys, and I agree that we jumped on you a bit. So let me make a proposal to you. Everyone leaves you alone from now on...leaving you to use Ubuntu in peace, and after 1 week, see if your perception of Linux has changed.

Accept?

As for the toy thing, I am willing to drop it, it has gone on long enough.

awakatanka
September 13th, 2006, 11:06 PM
Should Linux have self installing packages? I agree that those make things easier, the repos can't have everything, but IMO the repo system is better and much more secure.


He can choose to use http://klik.atekon.de/our other projects that are trying to fill that gap.


Why would a linux dev trying to get a windows made prg to run on linux? If MS change there api that windows made prg get a new version and it doesn't work anymore on linux, the linux dev needs to reverse engineering that api again to get the windows made prg working again under linux.

The linux dev will always be onestep behind this way and will never win ground on MS. OP needs to try to convert the dev of his favorite prgs that run windows only to make a linux version.

Good thread to read had the same feeling to 1 year ago, but i have adjust myself and use other prg's even if the offer a little less.

DoctorMO
September 13th, 2006, 11:09 PM
Are you asking for a lecture? Is that an invitation?

Don't tell me you code in .Net; just when we were getting to be friends ;-) nah one of my good friends is a .Net programmer and trying to convince him of the Freedom of speach in FLOSS systems is grueling. but life would be boring without good friends regardless of their technical nemisesy.

I'm just not impressed with the technoledgy that is propritory solutions. I mean some of them are good and all but all the real innervation has always come from kids in basements, college undergrads and open source programmers.

iTunes - Why should I care as programmer about supporting propritory eCommerce? DRM? no thanks prefare to do without it and stick to CC Music and Video. anyone who wants those worlds doesn't want Linux because it'll never be able to offer them and we'll end up with those with Linux/CC-Content and those with Windows or MacOSX/Disney style read only content.

I'm betting on GPL and CC being better for business and my own ability to earn and enjoy content than if I bought into the 'everything must be controled and made in a company' mentality.

Brunellus
September 13th, 2006, 11:10 PM
He can choose to use http://klik.atekon.de/our other projects that are trying to fill that gap.


Why would a linux dev trying to get a windows made prg to run on linux? If MS change there api that windows made prg get a new version and it doesn't work anymore on linux, the linux dev needs to reverse engineering that api again to get the windows made prg working again under linux.

The linux dev will always be onestep behind this way and will never win ground on MS. OP needs to try to convert the dev of his favorite prgs that run windows only to make a linux version.

Good thread to read had the same feeling to 1 year ago, but i have adjust myself and use other prg's even if the offer a little less.
The Alky project aims to make windows executables runnable in linux. It is still in its early stages, and Not Ready For Prime Time. But it is under heavy development.

oh, and off-topic: awakatanka, the Latin you want in your .sig is "SI VIS PACEM PARA BELLUM."

Lord Illidan
September 13th, 2006, 11:10 PM
He can choose to use http://klik.atekon.de/our other projects that are trying to fill that gap.


Autopackage is also good. .deb fills in .exe and what about apps distributed as static binaries?

awakatanka
September 13th, 2006, 11:22 PM
The Alky project aims to make windows executables runnable in linux. It is still in its early stages, and Not Ready For Prime Time. But it is under heavy development.

oh, and off-topic: awakatanka, the Latin you want in your .sig is "SI VIS PACEM PARA BELLUM."
Interesting read in google cache, didn't know that this was around. New things to read thxs. ( no access to main link :( )

Quidquid discis, tibi discis.

MrLeN
September 13th, 2006, 11:41 PM
Canonical's main aim in providing ubuntu is selling support to large firms which might decide to adopt it.

Canonical is merely a sponsor, right? Nevertheless, it is fantastic that Ubuntu is receiving commercial support, because as I have reiterated again and again, until I was blue in the face, that's the only way a Linux desktop can ever hope to reach mainstream success. I to realize however, that (as with IBM) industry will need to be the first stop on the list.



That ubuntu is usable by home users is a happy consequence.

So, Canonical was involved from the start? And Ubuntu came about because Canonical wanted to promote the system to industry? Which was developed first? The Desktop Platform or the server? I know that Debian was first, but I mean Ubuntu as a desktop platform.


The principal market for IBM's original Model 5150 Personal Computer was NOT home users by any stretch, but the corporate world. That it was "cheap enough" and "usable enough" by the standards of the day also made it usable by home users...but only after it had been adopted in large numbers by business and industry.

Agreed, as I previously stated.


Going after atomized home users is a futile strategy, from a business perspective. Apple has tried it since 1984, and continues to fail to make any meaningful dent in total OS marketshare. The whole world went to IBM/Intel/Microsoft because that's what they were also using at the office. Any mass migration to Linux would probably come from that direction.

Agreed, as I previously stated.


Is it very likely? Who knows? You're quite fond of pointing out the outstanding software migration issues. There have also been some rather rather sobering analyses about the financial and technical difficulties invovled in such a move. On the other hand, the potential benefits might prompt a reevaluation.

So, you're agreeing with me that the only way Ubuntu is going to get onto desktops is via commercial support? Why didn't you do that 10 pages ago?


In the end, the whole problem of which OS the *client* system is running may become increasingly irrelevant. What happens if a large organization embraces a Thin Client model, with stateless or minimally-capable thin clients accessing resources from a central server? The operating system ceases to be relevant to the user in that case, and the advantages could be compelling: lower energy costs, greater flexibility, data security, and so forth.

I tend to agree here. I said five years ago that the PC will become less of a "computer" and more of a "portal" into servers. I said that soon enough, the basic PC will hold nothing truly different to another basic PC and that the differences will rest in what that PC (or portal) has access to on a server. But I got laughed at and victimized. I was scorned and made fun of. Nevertheless, I still hold that view -- and I know that eventually, in the not TOO distant future, the Internet will actually become "alive" for lack of a better term, and the world of PC's will become mere looking portals (apart from some basic stuff).

Here's some stuff I found on Canocical:


Ubuntu has been deployed on home computers and in government deployments of over 100,000 machines.

wow -- pretty useful "toy" huh?



Ubuntu users around the world tell us that support and administration expertise are critical in ensuring the success of their Ubuntu deployments. In addition to community support and partner support, Canonical, the company behind this Debian-based GNU/Linux distribution, offers enterprise-class support.

I agree with this, and I sincerely hope that Ubuntu is a success story.

Regarding my view that I wish I could load Windows programs. I have to reiterate that it's not because I want "Windows" programs -- I just want "more" programs and more options. But as far as I can see Ubuntu is fantastic -- don't get me wrong, please, it really is and I am extremely impressed as I have stated time and time again. With commercial support and propagation Ubuntu has a chance of moving forward. Without that support, I see little hope. But as far as I can tell, Canonical is merely offering a support service for Ubuntu in an attempt to profit from that support. Therefore it is in their best interest to promote and distribute the software. But that's one step on the right direction. If Canonical can snag enough enterprises, software WILL start to be developed on a commercial level. But then again, I highly doubt that such software would be made available for free.



Adamant1988,


Yeah, I have skimmed this thread a little, just to get the gist of it.

All I have to say is this, do people complain about this stuff on Apple's forums? Honestly, I want to see what would happen if anyone went on a prominent Mac OS X forum demanding that a button be added to "launch windows".

Why do you think I am complaining? I am not here to complain. I came here to try out Ubuntu -- and I have open mindedly given it a real shot. I have invested 99% of my time trying Ubuntu and using it, and I have commented on what I think so far, but all anyone ever wants to say is that I am complaining -- from comments that took me about 0.01% of my time to type. Yes, I said that I believe that added compatibility with Windows programs would help to boost desktops like Ubuntu, but I HARDLY complained about it. I do not want to "launch windows" per se, I am merely suggesting that if programs such as wine got more attention and were more advanced, it would simply cover a lot of ground in regards to attracting new users.


Should Linux have self installing packages? I agree that those make things easier, the repos can't have everything, but IMO the repo system is better and much more secure.

I found Ubuntu a breeze to install, and admittedly that was highly unexpected. I also find that adding new programs is an absolute breeze as well. 10/10.


I don't expect Linux to run my windows programs and anyone who has that expectation should really seriously have researced the differences in the operating systems before they even made the jump.

I haven't made any jumps. I am merely investigating the possibility -- and I am giving Ubuntu EVERY chance to convince me to make use of it. I am trying dozens of programs, and I am sincerely spending quite a bit of my personal time investigating, which is kind of why I am getting upset from all these comments. I am here with an open mind, really giving Ubuntu a go, and I am giving it every chance and I am sincerely HOPING and wishing that I CAN use it -- but all anyone around here sees is that I am complaining, because I am displaying my thoughts. My thoughts are my thoughts -- I am just being honest and as many times as people say I am not, I AM being UTTERLY objective. Some people around here can't take even a word of criticism, but it's not like I have burst on here ranting and raving. I have been as professional and thoughtful as I can, even while some people around here started making that difficult.


Yes, it's nice if you can get WINE or Crossover to run a windows program that you like, but you shouldn't expect it.

Even yourself, you say it is nice. So where do you sit? On the fence? I submit that if WINE allowed users to run any Windows program with ease (and I must say, I know it's hard, with legal issues etc), then it would only serve to gibe programs like Ubuntu more of Microsoft's market share, because it would be one less objection for people to have. I really don't see why that's a problem.


That's like going to a sea-food place and expecting hamburgers and other fast food items to be more prominent on the menu than fish. =\

Another person that has just jumped in and added any old statements. I think that this thread is so long now that the end sentiment will be that this guy MrLeN just showed up and blasted holes in Ubuntu, and he complained and bashed it and says it should be Windows etc etc. If this whole situation wasn't making me so frustrated, I'd probably be laughing.



Lord Illidan,


We do need better applications for certain tasks. That's right, we lack professional image editing tools like Photoshop (GIMP is a bit behind), but for most of the applications you mention, the linux equivalents are better. It may be more worthwhile learning to use them.

The software that I have used on Ubuntu is really nice -- seriously. It loads, it works I haven't seen a single bug. But my only assertion is that I wish there were more software -- that's all. Also, I am concerned not just with the amount of software, but also about communicating with the rest of the Internet. There just aren't enough commercial exivallents. But I am not even complaing about that. I realise that Ubuntu is not a program that has $50,000,000,000 under its belt, and as far as it has come it is absolutely fantastic. I will continue trying out software. I am enjoying my searching, and I do not ahve a problem with the software itself. It's attractive, it works, it's cleran, intuitive -- no problem. I just wish there were more and I wish there were more commercial versions. Is that such a crime?


Does Linux need better software to advance? To take over Windows? Yes, definitely...but it is not the main aim. Our aim is not to overtake Windows and crush Microsoft.

But you need commercial parties to start including Linux, and you need to do what ever it takes to make that happen. It;s not just standalone software that is lacking, but even more importantly the ENDLESS array of commercial clients. That's the big issue.




Right now, you may be thinking we are very unfriendly guys, and I agree that we jumped on you a bit. So let me make a proposal to you. Everyone leaves you alone from now on...leaving you to use Ubuntu in peace, and after 1 week, see if your perception of Linux has changed.

Accept?

Of course -- that's all I am trying to do. Accepted (and originally intended).

MrLeN

MrLeN
September 14th, 2006, 02:36 AM
Hey check this out...

Bye Bye iTunes, nice knowing ya! (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=1496223)

That's one problem out of the way - HAHA! Great!

MrLeN \\:D/

P.S. If you can't be bothered clicking the link, I found out how to save songs into my home folder. All the songs I listen to in StreamTuner get saved one after the other, automatically. Why didn't someone tell me? Seeeesh! lol

maniacmusician
September 14th, 2006, 03:05 AM
cool...i have that installed, but haven't really gotten around to using it. So many things to do, you know? hopefully this weekend, I will get to try it. Thanks.

LuisC-SM
September 14th, 2006, 03:21 AM
Hey check this out...

Bye Bye iTunes, nice knowing ya! (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=1496223)

That's one problem out of the way - HAHA! Great!

MrLeN \\:D/

P.S. If you can't be bothered clicking the link, I found out how to save songs into my home folder. All the songs I listen to in StreamTuner get saved one after the other, automatically. Why didn't someone tell me? Seeeesh! lol

Well... it seems like you r starting to have fun with ubuntu :D.... wait until you have 2 or 3 months man, U'll never leave it !!!! :rolleyes:

Regards

Luis C. Suárez

monktbd
September 14th, 2006, 06:03 AM
great you get around Ubuntu a little bit more and dig up things and solutions that werent visible from the start :).
there is soo much to explore without need for commercial or shareware software, so much to customize to ones needs that it takes ages to get to know.
this can be and actually is tedious at times but it is great to learn something new every day.
and that is one of the reasons why i use linux on the desktop. i am having fun doing exploring the OS and learning new things about it.



So, Canonical was involved from the start? And Ubuntu came about because Canonical wanted to promote the system to industry? Which was developed first? The Desktop Platform or the server? I know that Debian was first, but I mean Ubuntu as a desktop platform.


in my eyes you push too much in a direction of ubuntu vs. windows. this is probably a correct way when one looks at the goals of mark shuttleworth.
but to me ubuntu is just a flavour of linux, something that is much bigger than just ubuntu. ubunutu just hapens to be the distribution of choice for me right now.
the following image gives a great overview of the most important linux distributions over the years.
http://www.kde-look.org/content/files/44218-linuxdistrotimeline-6.8.2.png
and before that there was gnu.simply said gnu is the organisation that we owe having free open source software. a lot of the programs used in linux existed already before linux started in 1991, they existed for unix.
gnu / linux is a lot about ideology and the way one thinks how software should be released and distributed.

avc302000
September 14th, 2006, 12:57 PM
Hi!
I've been a Widoze user since 95, and until 98 i've never even heard of mac, for one, and that Linux sucked at that time.
In 98 a new passion for me was mac due to its simplicity and ease of use.
Now, from 3 years ago, i've tried also Linux (basically Fedora).
Today i have at home windoze in a desktop (for windoze fanatic wife) and Ubuntu on a Asus laptop (for me). At work i have a mac (X 10.4).

On the three systems, by far the Ubuntu is the one on witch i feel less "expert" but is my intention to put it in my top priority (i'm thinking installing it in my mac at work).

In my simple opinion, 90% of PC users, only use windoze becomes it comes with their machines and friends also used it. Just for that. It is like the snow ball effect.
In terms of installing stuff, either hard or software i have to say that mac systems rules! For me they are the easiest. The downside is high price compared with regular PCs.

For what i've seen, Linux has a problem to Joe Average... If he wants Linux, witch distro to use? Since there are what, 20 different distros?, the problem resides on choice... and if a bad choice is made, whom to fault? Linux!

In the past year and half i've stay tuned on Ubuntu cause it seems the distro that presents the best quality/useability/stability distro.

My vote today is to Ubuntu.

maniacmusician
September 14th, 2006, 01:49 PM
holy crap lol, nice timeline! that's really cool.

LuisC-SM
September 14th, 2006, 02:50 PM
great you get around Ubuntu a little bit more and dig up things and solutions that werent visible from the start :).
there is soo much to explore without need for commercial or shareware software, so much to customize to ones needs that it takes ages to get to know.
this can be and actually is tedious at times but it is great to learn something new every day.
and that is one of the reasons why i use linux on the desktop. i am having fun doing exploring the OS and learning new things about it.

............


in my eyes you push too much in a direction of ubuntu vs. windows. this is probably a correct way when one looks at the goals of mark shuttleworth.
but to me ubuntu is just a flavour of linux, something that is much bigger than just ubuntu. ubunutu just hapens to be the distribution of choice for me right now.
the following image gives a great overview of the most important linux distributions over the years.
http://www.kde-look.org/content/files/44218-linuxdistrotimeline-6.8.2.png
and before that there was gnu.simply said gnu is the organisation that we owe having free open source software. a lot of the programs used in linux existed already before linux started in 1991, they existed for unix.
gnu / linux is a lot about ideology and the way one thinks how software should be released and distributed.

Hey man.

Tnx for this timeline. This is something I was looking for and never found an answear.

How rich and valuable is this forum that even talking about a different matter brings up things like this.

Kind Regards.

Luis C. Suárez

prizrak
September 14th, 2006, 03:13 PM
Mr. Len,

Glad to see you are enjoying the OS. Your statement about wanting more choice in programs I agree with. Your statement that we need to run Windows programs I don't agree with :)

Ubuntu's goal was always organization/gov't adoption. It was (and still is) geared towards people completely new to computers. It is hard to switch people from what they know that might be one of the problems you are encountering. Although I'm sure that some of the software doesn't have all the features you want.

But hey, have fun with Ubuntu, don't take what we say too heart too much some of us are too passionate about FOSS :) (not the worst thing I think)

Brunellus
September 14th, 2006, 03:33 PM
Canonical is merely a sponsor, right? Nevertheless, it is fantastic that Ubuntu is receiving commercial support, because as I have reiterated again and again, until I was blue in the face, that's the only way a Linux desktop can ever hope to reach mainstream success. I to realize however, that (as with IBM) industry will need to be the first stop on the list.

*****

So, Canonical was involved from the start? And Ubuntu came about because Canonical wanted to promote the system to industry? Which was developed first? The Desktop Platform or the server? I know that Debian was first, but I mean Ubuntu as a desktop platform.


In the beginning, there was the GNU (GNU's Not Unix) project: the Free Software Foundation's effort to create a UNIX-like operating system licensed on the GNU General Public License terms. By 1991, the project was mostly complete, but lacking a key component: a kernel. Then there was the Linux kernel. The Linux kernel, plus the GNU userspace tools == every Linux distribution now existing. Pedants will insist on the GNU/Linux nomenclature for this reason.

The goal, remember, was not to wipe out Microsoft or any of the other major players in operating systems (HP, IBM, Sun Microsystems, and so on). The goal was to have a Free (as in Freedom, not as in cost) operating system.

Debian is one such Free operating system. The main goal of the Debian project is, once again, a Free operating system. That it happens to be extremely useful in the server space is a happy coincidence.

Ubuntu is a project derived from (and still related to) the Debian project. It was instigated by Mark Shuttleworth and his company Canonical Ltd., as a means of accelerating Linux development with a view towards selling Linux services to the public. Many of the core developers for Ubuntu are paid by Canonical. Many of them are also, simultaneously, "upstream" developers and maintainers of Debian.

Because of the nature of the GPL, all changes in the source code eventually migrate upstream. Any additions that Ubuntu makes to GPL software (like, say, the Linux kernel, or various applications running on it) are avaialble at the source level for all users.

How can this be good, you wonder? Isn't this giving away the store? No, not really. In a Free Software model, the software is free; anyone can build it and use it, much in the same way that anyone can take bricks and build his own house to his liking. You are free to build as you wish--but do you really want to do it yourself? Free software vendors are the services that will do things for you: everything from architects to masons to plumbers and interior decorators to repairmen. The bricks--and the ability to build the house with them--are just the basis of a larger economic ecosystem. Some firms do extremely well on such a model. Red Hat is a corporation built on Linux and Free Software services in this way, and has had considerable marketplace success.

In such an environment, improvements added by any of the participants potentially greatly increases the size of the total market available. While firms are still in competition with each other (for service delivery), a general growth of the market means there's just more business for everybody--just as, say, easy credit makes the homebuilding industry more profitable for all homebuilders. Everybody wins.



So, you're agreeing with me that the only way Ubuntu is going to get onto desktops is via commercial support? Why didn't you do that 10 pages ago?


A difference in scope.

I continue to maintain that Ubuntu is ready for the INDIVIDUAL desktop--if you're willing to do it. For the commercial desktop, again, transition issues are a little less trivial. Most users really don't *need* Windows or most Windows applications--as you're discovering, Ubuntu and its GNU/Linux bretheren are more than capable of performing common computing tasks without resorting to Windows at all.

Or to put it another way: Linux is ready for MY desktop, because I don't have 3,000 machines and 5,000 users to turn around. I just have my machine, my data, and my own training. The retooling cost, as it were, is negligible.

Would I like Linux on the Desktop to hit the big time? Heck, yeah! But is Linux on the Desktop hitting the big time a NECESSARY CONDITION for its suitability for each individual user? Not at all. Ubuntu Bug # 1 (https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+bug/1) is Critical, yes, and it is certainly still an open, unfixed bug--but there are workarounds.

mafitzpatrick
September 14th, 2006, 04:16 PM
Ubuntu LiveCD attempts:
1 Numerous which failed each time without any error meesage to say why?
2 Attempted same on another laptop, stalled at loading/checking VESA?
3 Attempted again on another laptop same spec as 1 above and
used got as far as writing partition information ext3 at 4% then hung.

Ubuntu Alternate CD
on laptop 2 above got as far as 80% or there abouts (so many attempts can't remember) on installing packages

Kubuntu Alternate CD
On laptop 1 above, complete trouble free install fully working OS =D>


Just wondering. Is there any chance the install CD's themselves were naff? I would think it would be unusual for the Ubuntu CD to hang so early on, but the Kubuntu one not to. Apart from KDE they're essentially the same right?

I had problems with self-burnt CDs for install (very slow, "appearing" to hang (try waiting half an hour)) but once I had a quality CD it was without a hitch.

Glad to hear you've got it working :)

panickedthumb
September 14th, 2006, 05:01 PM
Mr Len, I think your idea of commercial support and others idea is different. You think of it as supporting commercial apps that are built for windows, what many people here are saying is providing support and getting adoption in commercial industry. That's part of the communication problem I think.

EdThaSlayer
September 14th, 2006, 05:43 PM
I just have to tell you something.

Ubuntu Linux is not Microsoft Xp

It is very different(and much better in my opinion) than any of the Microsoft products out there.

Brunellus
September 14th, 2006, 06:44 PM
http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/09/14/1446212&from=rss

and TFA, from the Sydney Morning Herald:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/technology/linux-wins-over-new-fans/2006/09/04/1157222061911.html



Linux is shedding its hard-core techie image in a bid to woo ordinary human beings seeking an easy-to-use operating system that can be downloaded for free.

While it is hard to estimate how many everyday users have defected from Windows or Apple software to join the open-source movement, Ubuntu (pronounced oo-boon-too) has emerged as one of the Linux desktop packages of choice for those looking for a basic desktop alternative.

detgar
September 14th, 2006, 07:14 PM
Splendid! Now all we have to do is get the desktop human-ready, then things will really start rocking.

(Getting humans desktop-ready works too.)

Klaidas
September 14th, 2006, 07:15 PM
Umm... For whose desktop?
A heavy gamer's desktop?
A graphics artist desktop?..

greenwom
September 14th, 2006, 07:35 PM
I'vemade the switch and things like shockwave are other formats are important but I can do without.

When it comes to a windows box, trojans, viruses, and malware I found it easy to avoid.

three easy steps
1. Reinstall XP
2. Setup security, antivirus software.
3. Stop looking at porn and gambling online!!!!

the first thing I do to every computer I "fix" for friends or family is look at thier IE history. There's always some questionable website(s). and the viruses are always XXX.exe or the like.

Windows users would be more happy if they stop looking at porn.

/// just my thoughts :)
www.christianubuntu.com (I'm not involved in this project but I think it's great)

DoctorMO
September 14th, 2006, 07:43 PM
heavy game developers desktop.
heavy graphical application developers desktop.
heavy animation studio desktop (no wait they already have good open source apps thanks to hollywood)

It all depends, where there are good aplications that can capture the market open source does very well, you can see this in the suprising amount of 3D animation packages and redering engines. this isn't a flook it's because studios needed 3D animation and they hired developers to improve the existing stock of programs in the open source world intead of making in house tools which are more expensive and limited life.

Reshin
September 14th, 2006, 08:06 PM
It's not that you can't do desktop with it, it's the setting it up to do it.

Klaidas
September 14th, 2006, 08:12 PM
Well, again, it's the application that matters, not the source state (closed/open/free/paid).

Firefox == goodness
IE = badness

But...

Nero = goodness
GnomeBaker = wannabee

</personal opinion>

Yet again, I'd like to state that I'm not 100% on one side or 100% on the other. I like the app, not the state of code.

maniacmusician
September 14th, 2006, 08:50 PM
I just have to tell you something.

Ubuntu Linux is not Microsoft Xp

It is very different(and much better in my opinion) than any of the Microsoft products out there.
do you read any of the threads you post to? we've gone over it a million times and its been done to death.

you did the same thing in beamerboy's thread. try reading at least some of the thread so you know what's going on before posting.

chaosgeisterchen
September 14th, 2006, 09:09 PM
What about K3B in your comparison :)

Brunellus
September 14th, 2006, 09:15 PM
What about K3B in your comparison :)
Kompletely out of the Kuestion.

bastiegast
September 14th, 2006, 09:16 PM
It's not that you can't do desktop with it, it's the setting it up to do it.

So true! This is crucial. Anyone can run linux its really easy, but configuring it can be a pain for noobs, you just need someone to set it up for you.
Just imagine your grandmother decided to go ubuntu. Now she wants to view a wmv file in FF. What the...? It wont work, and FF cont find me no plugin. She calls for your help. And you tell her: oh thats really easy, just apt-get mplayer adn mplayer-mozilla. Then go to the mplayer website (which is definatly not designed for noobs) and download the w32codecs. extract them, you know the deal; tar -xvzf w32codecs.tar.gz, then copy them to /usr/local/lib/codecs/ and there you go! Wmv playback in FF. Oh almost forgot: you have to sudo to copy the codecs, cuz you dont have the rights you know.
Hope you see my point
Distro's like Linspire has a few advantages in this point.

chaosgeisterchen
September 14th, 2006, 09:19 PM
Hmh. Heard of ssh already :)


sudo aptitude install mozilla-mplayer mozplugger w32codecs
## I dunnot know whether mozplugger is crucial..

Should work like a charm. Using the Penguin Liberation Front-repository.

bastiegast
September 14th, 2006, 09:22 PM
Hmh. Heard of ssh already :)


sudo aptitude install mozilla-mplayer mozplugger w32codecs

Should work like a charm. Using the Penguin Liberation Front-repository.

Alright alright, didnt knew about getting w32 codecs through apt-get :p , but still, even I didnt know (im NOT average computer user), anyway it might be easy but i hope you still see my point.

Donshyoku
September 14th, 2006, 09:24 PM
I was really upset. I thought this would finally be Flash 9 for Linux. Guess that's still a few years away! =D> to you Adobe.

Brunellus
September 14th, 2006, 09:24 PM
Alright alright, didnt knew about getting w32 codecs through apt-get :p , but still, even I didnt know (im NOT average computer user), anyway it might be easy but i hope you still see my point.
the average computer user doesn't isntall operating systems, and hasn't done since maybe the mid '80s.

The prize isn't the average, individual desktop--it's the corporate desktop environment.

Brunellus
September 14th, 2006, 09:25 PM
I was really upset. I thought this would finally be Flash 9 for Linux. Guess that's still a few years away! =D> to you Adobe.
haha...nope. sorry to ruin your day. The old wire-service teletype headers don't mean anything to anyone anymore, eh.

maniacmusician
September 14th, 2006, 09:27 PM
hehe that's what I thought too, and my heart skipped a beat. but it wasnt to be.

still, nice post.

Brunellus
September 14th, 2006, 09:27 PM
hehe that's what I thought too, and my heart skipped a beat. but it wasnt to be.

still, nice post.
it takes longer for Adobe to release things for "First class" platforms.

chaosgeisterchen
September 14th, 2006, 09:28 PM
Hmh.. you're right. And I do see your point.

If you take e.g. Firefox and have this missing plugin, there should be a mechanic to pop up a window with a button 'install necessary updates' with, on the one hand, a button to silently install these things in the background and on the other hand some button for description of what is missing for handling the file format.

For those who want to install it manually (so would I - I prefer full control with command line :) ).

This could be possible I assume. And it would push Linux to another Level of possible simplicity for the end-user.

Microsoft provides this solution. Linux can do this as well.

MetalMusicAddict
September 14th, 2006, 09:28 PM
I was really upset. I thought this would finally be Flash 9 for Linux. Guess that's still a few years away! =D> to you Adobe.


haha...nope. sorry to ruin your day. The old wire-service teletype headers don't mean anything to anyone anymore, eh.

I took it the same way as Donshyoku at first. :)

DirtDawg
September 14th, 2006, 09:49 PM
There's an ongoing "joke" in the comics community here in America that reminds me of this.

For years, we would run across this headline in various incarnations: "Biff! Whiz! Pow! Comics aren't just for kids anymore!"
Like this was some kind of revelation.

Meanwhile, those of us who actually read comics had figured that out at some point in the sixties (before I was around).

Welcome to the club, Linux!

aysiu
September 14th, 2006, 10:47 PM
There's an ongoing "joke" in the comics community here in America that reminds me of this.

For years, we would run across this headline in various incarnations: "Biff! Whiz! Pow! Comics aren't just for kids anymore!"
Like this was some kind of revelation.

Meanwhile, those of us who actually read comics had figured that out at some point in the sixties (before I was around). So true! I'm a big comics fan, and I've been reading that headline ever since Watchmen and Dark Knight Returns in 1986 and Sandman in the early 1990s, and so on. Of course, you could argue it was even earlier than that--underground comix in the 1970s and Cerebus. Well, in any case, wonderful analogy--hadn't even thought of that.

MetalMusicAddict
September 15th, 2006, 01:11 AM
There's an ongoing "joke" in the comics community here in America that reminds me of this.

For years, we would run across this headline in various incarnations: "Biff! Whiz! Pow! Comics aren't just for kids anymore!"
Like this was some kind of revelation.

Meanwhile, those of us who actually read comics had figured that out at some point in the sixties (before I was around).

Welcome to the club, Linux!

Ive noticed this with cartoons as well. Ive gotten back into some in my old age. (30) Theres some really good ones out there now. Im into Avatar lately. Good stories. ;)

MrLeN
September 15th, 2006, 01:20 AM
Nice title huh?

A continuation of:

1). I am considering Ubuntu (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=254252)
2). My Conclusion of Ubuntu as a User Candidate (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=254928)

Ok, I've been playing around a bit more. Since I made my first two threads. And since those threads have become exceedingly long, and many of the new comments are being made without having read the previous responses, I have decided to wrap up the thoughts and topics that have been discussed during those threads. I think that it's best to have all the branches of the conversation displayed in an initial post, so that new readers of the thread know exactly what it is that I do think, which will save me time from asserting that I do not hold certain views.

I'll list the stuff (for what my list is worth) that I have an issue with -- but in fairness, I'll also list the things that I am happy with and like. I intend to give posters in this thread a clear indication of exactly what it is that I "do" think, regardless whether it be good or bad, positive or negative, a personal opinion or otherwise. But I have absolutely no intention of just bashing Ubuntu. Also, I also fully understand that Linux is not Windows. Why do I want to say what I think? Why not -- this is a discussion forum, is it not?

Also, keep in mind that I have no intention (at this stage) of "migrating". I have already ascertained that my life and income rely far to heavily on Windows software. I could even make a lengthy post on why, but I don't think that post would be received very well. So, suffice to say, I really just plain can't "migrate". Nevertheless, I believe that it may be possible in future, and I am impressed enough with Ubuntu to start using it part time, in an effort to learn exactly how it works and what the best options/programs are. The only way I am going to truly know "what" I can get out of Ubuntu, and what I am talking about is to "know" it and "try" it -- and rest assured, no one really had to tell me that. I know full well, which is why I am trying Ubuntu -- and I am indeed giving it a good go, with a totally open (and even hopeful) mind.

The Ubuntu distribution was absolutely simple to install. I have never burned an iso before and I have never installed Linux from a CD before, and I did have to ask the odd question -- but by no means was I even remotely confused. I think I only scratched my head twice. I am absolutely impressed that the core program can be run from a CD. This, in itself, demonstrates the sheer power of Linux. If it can run on only ram (wow), then it must run extremely fast once it's on the hard drive. I already figured as much before I installed it to the hard drive, and once I did -- it was confirmed. Ubuntu runs extremely fast. I have has dozens and dozens of programs running all at once, and honestly experienced no noticeable slow down. But back just a bit, to the installation. I am also impressed by the way that the CD allows me to partition my hard drive. Again, I had not ever done this before. But I found it relatively intuitive and split my hard drive into two. Now I have a dual boot system. I can emphasize how impressed I was up to this stage. Now, when I turn my computer on, I get a prompt asking me if I want to load Ubuntu or Windows. I kind of wish Windows was the default though -- as I'll be using Windows on a daily basis for work, and Ubuntu in my spare time.

Once I got to using Ubuntu, I loved the desktop. I like how it has a top bar and a bottom bar. I especially love how I can have 4 desktops, and I am impressed with how I can have a dozen things running in each desktop environment and the system does NOT slow down. On Windows, once I've filled up one task bar, I get noticeable system speed loss. My computer isn't the newest you can get, but it's hardly an old 486 either. I have an AMD 1.8GHZ with 1024RAM -- plus GeForce Graphics with heaps of its own ram. I expect Windows to run on this just fine. But I can say that Linux is much much faster and less frustrating -- even with a stack of programs running. Admittedly, my Windows was faster when I first installed it -- but now it has difficulty running the programs I need and this causes quite a bit of frustration. Plus, Windows was harder to install and more troublesome. But, back to Ubuntu.

I have all my emails set up on Ubuntu, in Evolution. I haven't been able to find a suitable spam filter at this stage. I am used to using Cloudmark on Windows, which is almost totally accurate. It is remarkable software, which I can't praise enough. It is an Outlook Express plugin and has served me well for years. If I did migrate to Ubuntu, I would absolutely HAVE to have almost totally accurate spam filtering, because I have too many email accounts, too many subscriptions with different paces and I also get too much spam (from having so many email addresses). But I found Evolution to be a great program. I can check my spelling, and use mail filters. It all works fine -- no problem. Very happy.

When I am working with Windows, I like to install all the official messengers; merely because I always have a contact trying to use some function. I have tried many all in one Windows messengers, but in all honestly, the lack of functionality between messenger to messenger is irritating. So, I prefer to install all the official messengers, and just load the ones I want to use when I want to use them, depending on who I want to talk to. I have two running all the time -- MSN Messenger and Skype. I use voice chat on all of the messengers quite often. So I have them all installed, because friends have different preferences. I have MSN, AIM, Yahoo, ICQ and Skype. So, I don't like the fact that I can't download these programs on Ubuntu. I have installed Gaim, which is about as good as the average Windows all in one messenger -- but I just don't like all in one messengers. I want the official messengers -- I "need" the official messengers so that I can communicate with my friends. So that situation leaves a bit to be desired.

I must say that I am not overly impressed with FireFox. I can't run flash and I can't run Java. That is not a good thing. While I am on the subject, is there a better browser for Linux? I am going to try Amaya. Is that any good? I don't really like how the web pages are displayed. I don't like the default fonts. The text looks fat, and I notice that there are no common fonts that I use such as Verdana, Arial and Tahoma. All in all, the browser works fine. It renders the HTML fine. But I really don't like the whole look and feel of the browser. However, one toolbar that I absolutely must have is the Google toolbar. I am pleased to say that I was able to download that toolbar and it works fine. I haven't tried to any other toolbars yet, but the only one I "must" have is Google. Others that I use are for trivial reasons and I usually have them toggled off so that I can see the web pages.

I installed Skype. Like the browser, it's a bit on the ugly side. It looks kind of bulky and well, kinda 90's. Nevertheless, the important thing is whether it works or not. I have encountered a couple of problems. Firstly, when I put myself in invisible and then restart Skype, it shows me as online again. That's no good, because then my "cover" gets blown if I ever need to reboot the computer, or restart the app. I have also noticed a couple of call difficulties. I haven't spent much more time playing with it because of those reasons. I wanted to move on. However, the instant messenger part works fine. I need to play with Skype a bit more -- maybe the issues I've faced can be resolved, but up to this point I am only barely impressed. I am not overly concerned with the "look", but the functionality has to be there.

Another software that I use each and ever day on Windows, is iTunes. I have my headset on and listen to my favorite stations (softly) as I work. When a good song comes up, I crank it up and bludge for a few minutes. When I hear a song that I like, I go and buy it. It's very simple to use -- it's effective and I don't mind paying $1.69 per song, considering I only purchase a handful each month. So, one of the first things I did was to try and find some sort of replacement. Now I have something called Streamtuner set up. It allows me to listen to live feeds from Live 365, Google, Shoutcast and some others (sorry, I am in Windows right now so I am having difficulty remembering the names of all this stuff). I can record the feed that I am listening to. One feature that I found is that when I record, each song gets saved into my home directory. As each song finishes, it cuts the file -- saves it and starts ripping the next one. I think that is fantastic. The only problem I have with it is that each song that gets saved is missing the first couple of seconds and has a couple of seconds of the next song at the end of the previously saved song. But at the end of the day, I get 99% of the song, and it doesn't cost anything -- so no complaints. However, I am more than willing to pay -- and if iTunes "were" available on Linux, I would surely download it.

I also tried most of the software available in the add remove programs. To be quite honest, I am not overly impressed with most of it (in the way of functionality). I mean, it all works fine. I didn't encounter any bugs, freezes or crashes. But the programs are more like "bare essential" programs. The 2 HTML editors are not usable for me. I mean, if I "had" to use them, I could -- but they just don't have the options that I need. I have been told to try them out and "learn how to use them", but I can see right away that they do not provide what I need. I know that anyone here could go load them up and thing: "This is fantastic!".. but from the perspective of someone who codes every day, they're not acceptable. If anyone has ever used (and knows how to use) HTML-Kit in Windows, you'll know what I am talking about. I don't need any high end software like FrontPage or Dreamweaver, because I don't even use them on Windows. All I need is an editor which allows me to hand code. But that editor needs to be a bloody good one, like HTML-Kit is. I must say, that a Linux version of HTML-Kit has been pointed out to me, and that I could try running HTML-Kit in WINE but I haven't tried either option yet. But I will say that if I can use them, and if they're good like in the Windows version, then that would be an absolute plus, and would be regarded highly towards an possible "migration".

Then there's graphics programs like PhotoShop and PaintShop. There can be no substitute for these programs. They are just too far advanced. From what I see the Linux graphics tools such as Gimp will let you do the basics, but if you want to do more, then you'll have trouble trying to find a graphics program. I did try to look for one, but didn't come up with much. Correct me if I am wrong, but PhotoShop and PaintShop would have to work in WINE before I could ever migrate -- OR there's have to be a bloody good replacement, which as far as I can tell, at this stage there is not.

Ok, this paragraph is for a long winded rant, so get ready -- Another issue I have is that because commercial enterprise (at this stage) pretty much leaves Linux (as a desktop OS) out of the picture, if I did migrate, I'd sorely miss the myriad of options that are available for Windows. iTunes is one example. Then there's Trellian software, which is only made for Windows. I use those tools to and me with SEO and online marketing, and I just can't do without them. Then there are many websites that I like to mess around on which have plugins that are made for windows, such as Bluxxon. I would definitely miss Cloudmark for my email client spam filtering. Web CEO is a program that falls in the same category as Trellian's software. It is used for website submissions and SEO, etc. I couldn't live without it. I only use about 10% of its functions, but the functions that I do use, I must have. And again, the fact that I can't run Flash or Java in FireFox makes me a bit grumpy. Games -- I don't really care. I can just load Windows for them. But If I ever decided to migrate "fully", then I'd have to forget online gaming to a large extent. Hmm, I didn't try RealPlayer; can I use RealPlayer? I don't use it all that often, my I do have it installed and use it from time to time. There are a growing amount of commercial enterprises that offer services (and they're usually multimedia), such as iTunes and RealPlayer, where if you want to use their services -- you "need their client". I can see that being a huge issue for me, considering that I don't mind paying for good quality services and products -- and I realize that these services and products cost a lot of money to maintain and there are many services that simply can't be offered for free, because of "high maintentence overheads". However, I do see that if Linux became more popular as a desktop OS, then those enterprises may very well start creating Linux clients. The day THAT happens is the day that I think I'd be able to "migrate".

As for web development environments -- and I haven't looked into it much at this stage (I think I'll do that next) -- but I have stated in my previous posts that I run Linux servers. I am highly interested to know whether I can install PHP, Apache and mySQL into my desktop and launch my websites through "localhost". If I can do THAT, then I can foresee a high possibility of me spending much more time in Ubuntu -- especially if I can get HTML-Kit running. Most of my time (in a Windows environment) I am using HTML-Kit, easyPHP and WinSCP. That reminds me, I also need a decent FTP like SSH program. Now, (and you can probably blame Windows for this) but I am not a command like type of guy. I just hate command lines. I'd rather click stuff, so I am very interested to see if there is a SSH client for Linux where I can control it via dropdown menu's and clicking etc. I have so many different websites, that I like to save all the sessions into a folder etc. I can't remember all the different passwords and IP's and URL's and I'd have to type these things into command lines all day. I just plain couldn't do it. So, back to web development -- If I can get a Linux server environment, HTML-Kit and a decent (clickable) SSH client running, I can envision myself spending a lot more time in Ubuntu -- because those are the three things I use most. That would give me more experience with Ubuntu and more time to learn about other benefits.

I'd likely work in Ubuntu, simply because I like the Ubuntu environment. I actually prefer it to Windows. The time I have spent playing around with programs and software in Ubuntu has been really refreshing. It's almost been like therapy for me. I click something and -- LOW AND BEHOLD -- It OPENS! Now in 10 seconds, not later this afternoon. Not after a blue screen. Not after system failure and a reboot, but it opens, smiles at me and says: "Hi! Now what?". THAT is what I like about Ubuntu. I love the speed. I love how I can run everything all at once. I just plain love the environment. Therefore, I am totally willing and even wanting to spend as much of my time in the Ubuntu environment while I am working. The change is really nice. But unless I can get my work done, and unless I can find software to allow me to easy do what I want to do, I am just going to have to put up with Windows; and I mean "put up with". Windows drives me NUTS on a daily basis. I have literally smashed keyboards in half. I have unplugged mice, taken them outside and obliterated them into concrete walls. I have developed a habit of speaking to myself and answering myself back. I even punched myself in the forehead once -- all while working with Windows. This is why I am SO interested in Ubuntu, and it is why I am trying SO hard to believe that I could possibly make use of it, even if I spend my time now learning, and I migrate later, once there are more options and software and more commercial support and commercial clients.

However, in Windows defense, if people would just stop writing bugs, trojans, worms and other nasties, 95% of the problems would just cease to exist. I don't totally blame Windows for "being" Windows. There are also commercial enterprises tugging at each other, and pulling Windows around like a rag doll, adding things to their software that make them the default program, they install things onto your computer without your knowledge, etc -- all in the aid of making more money, spying or just plain out ruining people's days. I don't blame Windows for the fact that once a computer has been running for a year or so, that it has SO many background processes running, and competing software's it's any wonder that Windows starts having coronaries. Microsoft has to try and make their OS safe against hundreds of thousands of NUT bags, all doing everything and anything they can do to make money, crash Windows, install back doors, etc. Then you've got to run several "safety" mechanisms such as antivirus, trojan detectors, spyware detectors etc. The whole situation is a JOKE and it is really not all Windows fault. I understand that. Nevertheless, If I can get away from that torturous environment -- even for a few hours each day, then I'd be happy to. A change is as good as a holiday. Ever heard that? So that's pretty much where I stand with Ubuntu right now. It's a refreshing change.

I will say though, that if Linux ever becomes as popular as Windows -- say popular enough to take at least 25% of the market like Linux servers have, then the very same things WILL start happening on Linux environments -- one way or the other. Even if Linux is more secure and stable, and even if it's harder to write trojans and viruses -- Linux will still have to put up with an endless array of NUT bags trying to take over people's systems to make easy money. That's just life.

Regarding my assertions that I wish Linux could just run all Windows programs -- I realize that it's beside the point of Linux in the first place. I realize that Linux is not Windows. I realize that Linux doesn't attempt to be a free Windows. I realize that Linux is not an attempt at a virus and bug free Windows. Some have told me that Linux does not intend to "take down" Microsoft, but I only said that the only way Linux can do that is by compatibility -- because if Linux wants to grow, it needs to offer a "compatibility bridge". No one is going to switch from Linux to Windows cold turkey. I did not make those assertions because I think that Linux is trying to take Microsoft down or that I think Linux should be trying to kill Microsoft. I made them, because I believe that if Linux takes more of Microsoft's market, then it will have more of a chance of growing. I did not mean to say that I think Linux should take Microsoft down. I do realize also, that Linux is also investing in attracting "new users"; users that aren't already accustomed to Windows -- and I believe that this is a good strategy. Nevertheless, I still believe that it would be beneficial if the Linux community found a way to make practically any software (that was written for Windows) to run in Linux. It doesn't mean that Linux has to use "Windows code". All it means is that (I believe) Linux needs to simulate a Windows environment. There's next to nothing Windows can do in that case. Software developers do not write software "for Windows", they write it for "the mainstream" and it's only coincidently that the software is written for a Windows environment. Therefore, if Linux can start emulating that environment, people WILL start MASS MIGRATING to Linux almost overnight!

Some people have said that it is absurd of me to insist that Linux should run Windows software -- but such people have me all wrong and don't get my point. It's not "Windows" software that I want. It's "more software" -- "more options". It's not a "free Windows" that I want. It's a better OS with options that I want, regardless of cost. I will take these ideas with me to the grave, and I will never be convinced otherwise or change my mind, because what I am saying is merely and purely utter logic. Plus, another advantage of making Linux capable of running practically any Windows software is that it would make it 1000% easier for the commercial developers to make slightly modified versions, which will be able to save to Linux directories etc. In my understanding, (and I may be wrong), but it is not overly difficult for developers to convert Windows software for a Mac, which is why most software online has a Mac version. But If this were not the case, Mac would have faded out years ago. I am adamant -- Linux needs to be able to emulate a Windows environment for software purposes. I have absolutely no doubt in my mind -- nor will I change my mind. I am NOT saying that Linux should start running like Windows. I am saying that Linux should keep running as it should, but should have modules added which will allow Windows software to run. I am sure that this is logic.

Conclusion.

Gee, I don't know if I should use the above word. It may cause a huge problem - lol. So let me specify. The word conclusion above is referring to the conclusion of this post -- and by no means do I imply a conclusive opinion of Ubuntu in regards to what I think of it as a new and learning user. So, there's 5 pages of arguing saved - lol. Now, the conclusion:

For "my" purposes, I am simply unable to "migrate" from Windows to Ubuntu, fully. That's not because I wouldn't love to. I just can't -- and the fact of the matter is, that there just aren't enough replacements in the way of software. Nevertheless, I DO love Ubuntu. I really do, and what I intend to do is start spending at least a few hours a week, working in the Ubuntu environment. It would even be nice if I could spend a couple of hours per day using Ubuntu -- Even if it's just for a change. I am quite sure that as I get to know Ubuntu better, and as I find more software and workarounds for things, and as new software is developed, then I'll start spending more and more of my time in the Linux environment -- especially, as mentioned above, if I can at LEAST get a suitable work environment running, with: HTML-Kit (or a suitable replacement), a decent FTP like SSH program and a Linux server environment (as I have running on Windows with easyPHP). I sincerely hope that in future, programs like WINE will become more advanced and let me run just about anything that Windows can run. I mean, why not take advantage of the billions of dollars of software that has been developed? It wasn't made "BY" Microsoft, and it wasn't made under contract -- it was made by 3rd party entities for the mainstream, and it just so happens that the mainstream uses Windows. Therefore, Linux has every right to want to tap into that resource. If a company makes radio's, and a car manufacturer uses those car radio's in their cars, does that mean that a second manufacture can't design their dashboard so that radio can fit? It's exactly the same thing.

All in all, to this point, I am extremely impressed with Ubuntu. I will be using it in the future, and I hope that (even though I can't now) I can migrate to Linux in the future; hopefully as near as possible.

MrLeN

MrLeN
September 15th, 2006, 01:21 AM
This thread can probably be closed now.

Partly because this thread is covering too many things and is too long, and new readers are making comments without reading previous posts -- I have branched off onto a third thread:

3). A Report on Ubuntu -- From a New User Perspective (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=1500321)

MrLeN

Mr. Picklesworth
September 15th, 2006, 01:25 AM
A bit late here, but...

Like Outlook -- I want iTunes. That's my choice.I prefer Epiphany as a web browser, but I doubt I'll be seeing a Windows version any time soon.

maniacmusician
September 15th, 2006, 01:38 AM
This thread can probably be closed now.

Partly because this thread is covering too many things and is too long, and new readers are making comments without reading previous posts -- I have branched off onto a third thread:

3). A Report on Ubuntu -- From a New User Perspective (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=1500321)

MrLeN
ditto. close it up, please.

Shay Stephens
September 15th, 2006, 01:43 AM
I face similar situtation as a photographer. Currently, there is no substitute for Photoshop CS2. I can't use a thermal cd printer. And a handful of other things that force me to dual boot into windows just to get my work done.

However, I don't see a future in windows. So I do everything I can in linux and only dual boot into windows when the need arises. I keep testing programs and researching alternatives. I keep trying out new methods, that while different, might work just as well or better.

So while agree with your reasons for not being able to kick windows cold turkey right now, I would recommend you keep working at it. Look at things with an open mind. Some things we think we can't live without, we can, or there is an alternative out there. So don't give up. We are in this together ;-)

I am guessing my release from windows is within 2 years from now. I will keep working hard to see that day come :-)

p.s. I can get photoshop 7 to run in wine, but I need CS2 for the raw workflow. And for code, I used to use homesite 4.something in windows, but I like bluefish in linux. I have not tried to see if homesite runs in wine because bluefish gets it done for me.

maniacmusician
September 15th, 2006, 01:53 AM
Firstly, I must say, you're brave for making this thread; I don't mean that in a bad way. I respect that after getting beat on, you're still standing. It's awesome.

Now I can't really reply to your entire post...but a few things off the top of my head...if you have to get flash and Java in FF right now, then just use Automatix. It's a "quick fix" solution, the only downside is that you learn less about the linux system. But it will install useful firefox plugins for you, and a huge crapload of other useful software. (www.getautomatix.com). As for an ftp client with ssh capability, i'd recommend gFTP. it's pretty decent. works for me at least. (Automatix has that too). I think there's also a KDE FTP client, but i don't remember its name.

I get what you're saying about being able to run windows software, i really do...but it's simply not that easy. Often times, the resulting "translated" version is buggy, and it looks plain ugly, which affects its usability sometimes. I mean, we try, but ultimately, it's up to the developers to be translate their software; they have all that code at their disposal, we don't. For people that absolutely must have this; use vmware. it's a good solution. I use it whenever i need windows.

Having said all that, I hope you find appropriate replacements for your products in linux (we're trying, really...we come out with new stuff at a really fast rate). I encourage you to go ahead and try the linux HTML-kit, or use it in wine; at least then people won't get stupid and start accusing you of not trying again.

But I wish you all the best, and hope your relationship with Ubuntu works out. Good luck!

maniacmusician

nalmeth
September 15th, 2006, 02:03 AM
:shock:
wow

Are you writing a book, and posting here to make drafts? I did actually read (sometimes skim) through the whole thing, but jeez, it's too much to take in at once. :)


For "my" purposes, I am simply unable to "migrate" from Windows to Ubuntu, fully. That's not because I wouldn't love to. I just can't
This is 100%, completely, and totally fine! I mean really, thats totally understandable. I think you're trying to disclaim alot, because you got a lot of unexpected reaction to your initial threads.

Honestly, your experience panned out better than I expected, and I congratulate you for your openmindedness and willingness.

If you're willing to stick around, and use ubuntu as your secondary OS, we are all more than glad to help find solutions to problems you might have.

With most of the friction out of the way, I think a lot of your difficulties come simply from adapting to a new paradigm. There are a lot of people who whose the GIMP for professional (more than general and playful) work, for example.

These tools were designed with different goals and aspirations, and once you're really over this initial learning curve, things will really come easy.

About the repository software, yes, sometimes you don't find what you're looking for there. Or what you find is oddly out-dated. It's not a regular thing, but you should study the process of how and why certain applications are added, and you'll understand why everything can't be there at all times.

Let us help you go outside the repositories, and find the real killer apps you're looking for.

Before we go any further, what do you mean you can't use flash or java in firefox?

maniacmusician
September 15th, 2006, 02:07 AM
Before we go any further, what do you mean you can't use flash or java in firefox?

I think he means by default...

btw, MrLeN, a downside of linux; we only have Flash 7 :( because the Flash developers are neglecting us. we're supposed to get Flash 9, and we're really hoping for that to happen....t'would be wonderful.

nalmeth
September 15th, 2006, 03:11 AM
Change Boot Order:
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/GrubHowto/ChangeDefaultOS

Fonts:
install the msttcorefonts package for the missing fonts you might be used to

Firefox:

But I really don't like the whole look and feel of the browser.
https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/themes/
You should make an extended effort to get to know firefox. Some of the extensions and extra abilities (AdBlock, Video Downloader, NoScript) will change the way you browse. Or maybe you would prefer opera?


Then there's graphics programs like PhotoShop and PaintShop. There can be no substitute for these programs.
I think this is a matter of habits and conventions, but if there can be no substitute, CrossOver Office is what you'd need.

Itunes:
Is your focus narrowed down to streaming and downloading music? Or are there specifics about the application that you desire in a linux app?


I think he means by default...

btw, MrLeN, a downside of linux; we only have Flash 7 :sad: because the Flash developers are neglecting us. we're supposed to get Flash 9, and we're really hoping for that to happen....t'would be wonderful.
We can still use flash 8 and 9 through wine, however

These are just things that stuck out, I'm sure there's a lot more you need.

MrLeN
September 15th, 2006, 03:35 AM
ARGH! You're all crazy! I am sick of this place! I do NOT think that Linux should be a free Windows -- I never said, NOT EVEN ONCE that... oh, sorry wrong thread.. (hehe)

Thanks peoples. Very useful responses.

maniacmusicman,


Firstly, I must say, you're brave for making this thread; I don't mean that in a bad way. I respect that after getting beat on, you're still standing. It's awesome.

I almost lost the plot a couple of times, lol.


Now I can't really reply to your entire post...but a few things off the top of my head...if you have to get flash and Java in FF right now, then just use Automatix. It's a "quick fix" solution, the only downside is that you learn less about the linux system. But it will install useful firefox plugins for you, and a huge crapload of other useful software. (www.getautomatix.com). As for an ftp client with ssh capability, i'd recommend gFTP. it's pretty decent. works for me at least. (Automatix has that too). I think there's also a KDE FTP client, but i don't remember its name.



Okies, I'll check it out -- thanks.

nalmeth,


Are you writing a book, and posting here to make drafts? I did actually read (sometimes skim) through the whole thing, but jeez, it's too much to take in at once.

Ok, you got me. This is really Bill Gates. Yes, I am writing a new book called: "How to create a Desktop OS".


Honestly, your experience panned out better than I expected, and I congratulate you for your openmindedness and willingness.

Yeah, I am more impressed with Ubuntu than I thought I'd be. It's fantastic, really.


Let us help you go outside the repositories, and find the real killer apps you're looking for.

Yeah, that's what I'll be doing -- finding all the best stuff. If I can at the very least get a useful "work environment" happening, I'll be cheering. Especially if I can get a localhost running. And thanks for all the stuff you posted about the fonts, boot order (phew, that's great), etc..

It seems that there are a lot of workarounds for things. Before I had found out as much as I know now, my opinion would have been something like: "yeah, if I have to buggerize around all day with workarounds for this and workarounds for that, I'd rather just stick with Windows -- I can't be bothered", etc. But really, there's one good thing about leaning stuff; (unless you have an atrocious memory) you usually only have to learn once. So I think that it may very well be worth the investment in time and learning to figure out how to get the most out of Ubuntu because 1). It would be great of I really could use it often, 2). Once I've learned how to get what I want, take-2 will be 50 times faster for me 3). I am sure Ubuntu will keep growing and improving, so I am probably starting out with Ubuntu at "JUST" the right time.

MrLeN

P.S. Anyone got any info for how I can set up a localhost with php, Apache and mySQL? That would be great.

PatrickMay16
September 15th, 2006, 03:45 AM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/dusthillguy/monsquazlowcolor.png

MrLeN
September 15th, 2006, 03:47 AM
Did I miss something?

MrLeN

maniacmusician
September 15th, 2006, 03:50 AM
lol, i think we all did. bedtime....good night ubuntu users!

Brunellus
September 15th, 2006, 03:59 AM
Now we're getting back into the realm of the more typical "new user" complaints. Bring 'em on.

**Flash, Codecs, and Java.**

The law is an a*s. But it's still the law: ubuntu isn't allowed to redistribute certain codecs world-wide for a number of reasons. There are ways of working around this--consult:

http://wiki.ubuntu.com/RestrictedFormats

No real easy solution there, Ubuntu-wise. You could have gone with another distribution that includes them, either legally (Linspire, for money) or with a wink and a nod (Blag, Mepis)

Alternatively, there's also EasyUbuntu and Automatix. Either will get you where your'e going.

Adobe allegedly considers Linux a "first class" platform which means of course that we get treated like sh*t in practice.

Java is a little better.

** Full Migration **


*Personally:*

This is really up to you.

My advice would be to start operating with both operating systems in mind. Choose new software that is cross-platform, wherever possible. Likewise file formats.

If you think that a total migration might be a goal that you'd want to get to eventually, I would declare a DAY ZERO and begin saving new content in formats that are Linux-friendly, limiting sharply the creation of Windows only files. You will slowly begin to transition to a point of indifference, where either platform will suit most of your needs.

Personally, as I said elsewhere, I retain a Windows partition, but I very seldom use it. My next computer will be entirely Windows-free. Transition management requires a combination of will (the desire to stick to the new environment) and prudence (knowing what stuff can't be moved).

*Societal*

Work on the WINE and Alky projects will continue apace, as will work on Linux-compatible programs that can interoperate with Windows programs. This is going to be extremely difficult, since in many cases the compatibility layers are having to be reverse-engineered. This is expensive, time-consuming, and error-prone.

That said, I don't think, again, that total and transparent interoperability is absolutely a necessary condition for mass desktop adoption. Build a good enough alternative, and people will move to it on its own merits, just as they've done with the Apache webserver.

Remember, "linux" will want nothing. The Linux kernel and its dependent applications are simply outgrowths of several different communities and constituencies, each working to its own ends. The goal is not necessarily to overthrow Microsoft--the goal is to build an operating system and applications.

**RESOURCES**

These forums, of course, as well as the official ubuntu wiki (http://wiki.ubuntu.com) are great resources.

Also check out irc chat at irc.freenode.net tech help is at #ubuntu, #ubuntuforums is the 'social' hub most associated with these forums.

Might be useful to get yourself a book as well. I recommend "How Linux Works," on No Starch Press...but that's for the 'enthusiastic newbie' or advanced beginner. Others will likely chime in with books for other purposes.

aysiu
September 15th, 2006, 04:14 AM
Legal issues are only part of the equation:
Ubuntu's commitment to only include completely free software by default means that proprietary media formats aren't set up 'out of the box'. This page will show you how to enable support for the most popular non-free media formats. Mepis, PCLinuxOS, and Linspire include a lot of these popular non-free codecs "out of the box."

Dr. C
September 15th, 2006, 04:53 AM
One suggestion for a user that needs particular Windows applications is to consider VMWare. You can run any version of Windows from DOS / Windows 3.1 to Windows XP on VMWare Server. Also other Linux distros etc. VMWare Server by the way is a free download.

Wolki
September 15th, 2006, 04:59 AM
P.S. Anyone got any info for how I can set up a localhost with php, Apache and mySQL? That would be great.

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ApacheMySQLPHP

Seems very detailed amd in-depth, you shouldn't have problems doing it (and if you do, there's lots of people here willing to help you)

As for the ssh stuff: Both ubuntu's and kubuntu's default filemanager can do filetransfer via ssh and various other protocols, and for recurring tasks you could learn a tiny amount of bash and write a little script. You can even integrate these into the filemanager later, for clicky-mousey fun.

And if both don't satify you, there are some additional programs that can do that, just take a look in synaptic or Add/Remove Applications.

Flash and Java are in Add/Remove Applications, too, If you can't find them, make sure you have the little boxes with "Show community supported applications" and "Show commercial applications" checked, the amount of software you can install will greatly improve.

As for the HTML editiong stuff, I'm not too familiar with it. But there are more than two web editors in the repositories, and many other text editors have web developing plugins/modes; sometimes such things can be quite hidden. Plus, a large number of them are scriptable, so you can add some small features yourself (ar ask around whether someone will do it for you/help you, the community tends to be quite helpful)
I'd recommend asking more specific questions about features and "How can I do ...?", instead of comparing it with an editor quite a number of people have likely never used.

And browsers, there are several; most of them are based on Gecko (Mozilla's rendering engine) though, meaning thing should in general look like firefox, but with a different user interface/feature set. Then there's Opera and Konqueror, the KDE File/Web-browser, which uses KHTML (what Safari is based on)

Gecko-based browsers include Firefox, Seamonkey, Epiphany (the GNOME default), Galeon, Kazehakaze and probably more...

wvslkr
September 15th, 2006, 05:26 AM
http://mondaybynoon.com/2006/09/11/linux-and-web-development-part-2/

A link to another developer that is trying to transition and what he has
found useful. Don't know if it will help but welcome and have fun.O:)

arsenic23
September 15th, 2006, 05:26 AM
Did you know that Photoshop 7 will run nearly flawlessly under wine? It's a little old but -shrug-.

I still boot into windows for Photoshop, html, and games so I get were your coming from. But I also think that, personally, some of the things you want are silly. If you were my chum, I'd laugh at you for some of it. But everyone uses their computer differently so who am I to criticize.

Lemme see if I can roll out a few random suggestions for you:

If you don't like Firefox but don't have a coherent reason, you may want to try Epiphany or Opera. I've never liked firefox, though I've not been able to put my finger on exactly way, but I simply adore both of these browsers. As for Java and Flash, they're really easy to set up if you use a half decent tutorial, I think there is already a link to one in this thread.

I'm not familiar with the html editor your talking about, but I've always used Dreamweaver for it's auto-complete feature. You may wish to try out Screem, it's my favorite GNU html editor so far.

I really don't like Gaim, and haven't used it much, but Kopete seems like the best IM client I've ever lay'd paws on. It's most certainly more feature rich then the windows all in one clients I've tried. But I'm not sure about all the features, I'm the kinda guy that turns stuff like that off or ignores it alltogether.

hmmm, I think I was going to go on about some of your windows vs linux generalizations... But, really, I guess that's just pointless.

panzer21st
September 15th, 2006, 10:14 AM
Browsers are something I have to try out, all the time. Part of the job. I prefered Firefox, over all, in Windows, but everyone has certain wants. (I am currently testing how many extensions I can get to work at the same time, in windows.) I agree with arsenic23, Opera is a great browser too. And it should have even more out for it soon.

Oh, I am a brand new user of Linux. Before I found easyubuntu, I installed a few of the items myself. Java.com, has great instructions for installing java. I guess it depends on how much work you want to do, to add toys to your Linux. That's how I look at Linux. If I am going to 'trick out my ride', I have to do some work, or pay someone else to do it. 'Out of the box' isn't unique.

I use Photoshop in Windows. My preference too. And I do play some games in there still. Although I'm combing the gaming forums to figure out how to port everything over.

Looking over what I wrote, it may not be a lot of help to you. Though, it's not a giant head either. ;)

Kateikyoushi
September 15th, 2006, 11:01 AM
Is there something in the Windows installer that says, "This is an Ext3 partition and cannot be used"?

Yes it complained to me about my reiserfs partition.

About your sig.
I wonder why is it neceserry to run a full antivirus check after installing windows.

Kateikyoushi
September 15th, 2006, 11:44 AM
Do you realize how much harder it is to reverse engineer these drivers than it is for the manufacturer to make them? The community doesnt have all the info to easily whip together some drivers, if we did they would be made by now.

I do not think they would benefit much from releasing open source drivers.


Things in windows dont instantly work either. Do a fresh install of windows and tell me everything just works.

Well it usually works out of the box, because most systems come with win preinstalled. I had to do nothing with my notebook.
I installed last two versions of vista and except for my wireless adapter which i had to choose from the list it worked.


Or even buy a preloaded windows box, use it for a year and tell me everything just works.
Windows gets bogged down by spyware and viruses, and if it doesnt it gets bogged down by the multitude of programs preventing the mass take-over of the system by malicious software.

Well few boxes around me.
Toshiba noti from 99 win98 no service packs got 1 virus in the 7 years still runs first install.
Vaio desktop runs with first install 5 years old
2 other notebooks installed 2 years ago.

I run Vista RC1 on my X505 1,8" HDD 512Mb ram Pentium M slowed down to 600Mhz runs antivirus antispyware it is far from being slow or bogged down.


Drivers have to be installed and configured in windows too, and ubuntu comes with a lot more than windows does by default.

Drivers have to be configured ?
Why ? I did not configure anything except choosing the wireless network and entered the key.

This weekend I give the ubuntu live cd a try on the same system, I am quite curious. Especially because on my other rig the live cd would not even mount any of my partitions.
Ntfs does not work um ok, fat32 can't mount it what ? why ??
XFS can't be mounted either... oookay...

It is a major turn off for me when I find people come up with exaggerated stories etc it really undermines the whole credibility of linux being oh so much better.:frown:

Lord Illidan
September 15th, 2006, 12:33 PM
Glad to see you are getting on.

I can also recommend Amarok as a music player, and Last.FM as a music streaming service. Amarok has last.fm support built in...I am just not sure how to save songs.

Regarding photoshop and flash 7, send an e-mail to adobe...we all would like better linux versions.

Regarding msn...have you tried amsn messenger?

maniacmusician
September 15th, 2006, 01:59 PM
Glad to see you are getting on.

I can also recommend Amarok as a music player, and Last.FM as a music streaming service. Amarok has last.fm support built in...I am just not sure how to save songs.

Regarding photoshop and flash 7, send an e-mail to adobe...we all would like better linux versions.

Regarding msn...have you tried amsn messenger?
amsn is a pretty ugly piece of software. I mean, personally i've never liked it. but maybe the one in the repos is kinda old.

sonixau
September 15th, 2006, 02:49 PM
80% + of people get their Windows installed drivers and al when they buy the machine (Microsoft OEM Program, does it ring a bell for all of us that buy from computer shops, yes i think it does.


linux is an alternative OS..

prizrak
September 15th, 2006, 03:05 PM
MrLen, try FileZilla for Linux AFAIK it does SSH as well as FTP.

DLWood
September 15th, 2006, 04:22 PM
One suggestion for a user that needs particular Windows applications is to consider VMWare. You can run any version of Windows from DOS / Windows 3.1 to Windows XP on VMWare Server. Also other Linux distros etc. VMWare Server by the way is a free download.
I'm doing just that, but running Ubuntu as the "guest" inside the Windows XP "host". Things are going pretty well, and you can go back and forth from one OS to the other w/o having to reboot, which is really nice. I've been running Ubuntu this way for about 2 weeks w/o any major trouble. There's a learning curve to Ubuntu/Linux as well as VMware Server, and I don't have everything worked out yet.

I can't seem to get Evolution and Gaim to send/receive though. I've disabled the IPv6 already (globally in Ubuntu), which allows Firefox to communicate with the outside world. Neither Evolution nor Gaim will "connect" to login or send/receive. Anyone have any suggestions for Evolution and Gaim?

iamah
September 15th, 2006, 04:29 PM
Ntfs does not work um ok, fat32 can't mount it what ? why ??
I wonder why too... I always had 2 partitions auto-recognized and default auto-mounted in my desktop... One FAT32 and one NTFS(this one read-only by default)

I found Ubuntu easier to set up than windows... No serials, no urgent updates, no antivirus-firewall-msn install, no need to reinstall unless my HD dies... Ubuntu updates are $money$!

I never had compatibility problems since I left my 56k modems... I think hardware companies now have the responsability of giving a free software choice for its costumers. Many already are doing it.

I'm very optimistic about Linux, I saw what happened in past years and I hope this is the future... :-\"

Brunellus
September 15th, 2006, 04:30 PM
I'm doing just that, but running Ubuntu as the "guest" inside the Windows XP "host". Things are going pretty well, and you can go back and forth from one OS to the other w/o having to reboot, which is really nice. I've been running Ubuntu this way for about 2 weeks w/o any major trouble. There's a learning curve to Ubuntu/Linux as well as VMware Server, and I don't have everything worked out yet.

I can't seem to get Evolution and Gaim to send/receive though. I've disabled the IPv6 already (globally in Ubuntu), which allows Firefox to communicate with the outside world. Neither Evolution nor Gaim will "connect" to login or send/receive. Anyone have any suggestions for Evolution and Gaim?
I'd ask in a more relevant topic and thread.

Kateikyoushi
September 15th, 2006, 04:46 PM
80% + of people get their Windows installed drivers and al when they buy the machine (Microsoft OEM Program, does it ring a bell for all of us that buy from computer shops, yes i think it does.


linux is an alternative OS..

If you add the pirated OSes which is also better for MS than if you use linux that number on desktops rises even higher.

I do not think it is really an alternative.
I can't really tell someone who fell in love with a 12" 1kg notebook to buy that 14" 2kg one because that comes with a free linux.

Currently only el cheapo boxes are preinstalled with linux.
Which eventually might take over MS in the future as cheaper and even cheaper PCs appear unless MS will drastically change, like moving to adware os or something.

prizrak
September 15th, 2006, 04:48 PM
MrLen,
On clients.
RealPlayer - has a Linux port.
AIM - has a Linux port.
ICQ - no port of the client but will connect from AIM.
Y! - has a Linux port.
MSN - has aMSN which is probably the closest you can get to the official one.
The rest would have to be in GAIM I think.

panickedthumb
September 15th, 2006, 04:49 PM
and the official port for AIM is terrible, you're much better off with gaim.

Brunellus
September 15th, 2006, 04:56 PM
and the official port for AIM is terrible, you're much better off with gaim.
the official port is abandonware as far as I can tell.

Kateikyoushi
September 15th, 2006, 05:01 PM
Ntfs does not work um ok, fat32 can't mount it what ? why ??
I wonder why too... I always had 2 partitions auto-recognized and default auto-mounted in my desktop... One FAT32 and one NTFS(this one read-only by default)

After installation I could mount them, but from the live disc no.
Does not really concern me just mentioned it.


I found Ubuntu easier to set up than windows... No serials, no urgent updates, no antivirus-firewall-msn install, no need to reinstall unless my HD dies... Ubuntu updates are $money$!

Vista and ubuntu install looks pretty much the same.
Enter serial ? These days machines come with system restore discs no need to enter serials.


I never had compatibility problems since I left my 56k modems... I think hardware companies now have the responsability of giving a free software choice for its costumers. Many already are doing it.

I'm very optimistic about Linux, I saw what happened in past years and I hope this is the future... :-\"

It pretty much depends on your config. I guess my card reader or the BD drive would cause problems.

Last time I tried desktop linux distro was in 2000 I am not really impressed not even with the marketshare and MS did not even come out with anything new in the past few years.

panickedthumb
September 15th, 2006, 05:02 PM
the official port is abandonware as far as I can tell.
yes, I remember installing the same version that is currently out on Redhat 8, way back in the day.

bobbybobington
September 15th, 2006, 05:42 PM
I really hope the codecs and plugins will be alot more easy and legal, if the ability to buy codecs was included in synaptic. Hopefully that part (just the codec buying part, not the whole cnr service)could be included in synaptic, once linspires cnr is opensourced.

Brunellus
September 15th, 2006, 05:45 PM
I really hope the codecs and plugins will be alot more easy and legal, if the ability to buy codecs was included in synaptic. Hopefully that part (just the codec buying part, not the whole cnr service)could be included in synaptic, once linspires cnr is opensourced.
I wouldn't hold my breath.

panickedthumb
September 15th, 2006, 06:18 PM
I really hope the codecs and plugins will be alot more easy and legal, if the ability to buy codecs was included in synaptic. Hopefully that part (just the codec buying part, not the whole cnr service)could be included in synaptic, once linspires cnr is opensourced.
well, the real solution isn't finding a way to get these proprietary codecs legally, the solution is ending the need for them by promoting open formats.

This will take years, but I know for a fact that ogg vorbis has been growing steadily for years now, and ogg theora is starting to catch on. Unfortunately, we need mp3 players and dvd players that support ogg. Here I am talking about how we need to stop using these proprietary codecs, when I use mp3 on a daily basis because my mp3 player only supports mp3 and wma (and I sure as hell am NOT going to use wma).

aysiu
September 15th, 2006, 06:22 PM
I understand about Ogg, but is there an open source alternative to Flash that's viable? What's Gnash looking like these days?

You can hardly expect people to ditch proprietary formats if there aren't viable open source alternatives.

panickedthumb
September 15th, 2006, 06:27 PM
I understand about Ogg, but is there an open source alternative to Flash that's viable? What's Gnash looking like these days?

You can hardly expect people to ditch proprietary formats if there aren't viable open source alternatives.
agreed, yes. Gnash is still not that great... but there's a lot that can be done with XML/SVG that matches Flash from what I understand. Haven't learned much about it.

xpod
September 15th, 2006, 07:33 PM
can i join in:biggrin:

3 weeks ago i did`nt have any OS cd`s......No xp and no ubunto.

So i go to a website and can feely download whatever linux version i want...shop around even and get the right one for my pc...and even try another if that dont work or another and another!

To install my choice of ubunto all i really had to do was learn how to burn an ISO and learn a little about partitioning so i could understand what the automated process was really going to be doing.....30 minutes later i have a perfect OS in need of nothing bar the flash and java thing sorted out.(thats until I get my hands ON it of course)

So a week later i kill the dualboot and need to reinstall BOTH..
Ubunto....again NO real problems..XP though.

You aint going to tell THIS complete pc newcommer that installing xp with nothing but a copy of the "i386" directory i luckily copied to a cd and a 98 bootdisk was a simple thing to do...and THATS after i learn how to use "fdisk"..#-o

I realise you mean all the lucky people WITH proper XP cd`s when you talk of it`s simplicity BUT what then does a new user do about drivers for that fresh xp install...regardless of HOW he installed.

I had to learn how to get "everest" on to the thing just to discover the
bloody name of the stuff inside it..i.e..ethernet,chipset,multimedia.

And STILL xp wanted MORE of my blood....etc etc etc.

Thankfully a forum member helped me out with my own xp BUT i still had to do the above mentioned nonsense on the mother in laws dead xp and will again on this WHEN i next kill it.

30mins OR 3-4 hours...IF you have a decent burn of your i386..:-({|=

Give me ubunto everytime.........I dont mind THAT sort of learning:biggrin:

EDIT:WOW....i just noticed the comments in the quote below.Dont that just mean that the pc you tred to put ubunto on is naff?I have 2 pcs here and ubunto goes on the better one and kubunto goes on the "naff" one.

LordMerlin
September 15th, 2006, 08:05 PM
The original poster, me, concludes that the Ubuntu setup is naff!

However the Kubuntu alternate i386 and AMD64 are very good.

Basis of these statements?

Ubuntu LiveCD attempts:

1 Numerous which failed each time without any error meesage to say why?

2 Attempted same on another laptop, stalled at loading/checking VESA?

3 Attempted again on another laptop same spec as 1 above and
used got as far as writing partition information ext3 at 4% then hung.

Ubuntu Alternate CD

on laptop 2 above got as far as 80% or there abouts (so many attempts can't remember) on installing packages

Kubuntu Alternate CD

On laptop 1 above, complete trouble free install fully working OS =D>

On laptop 2 above, complete trouble free install, no wireless network but suspect external problem rather than OS fault =D>

On laptop 3 above, complete trouble free install fully working OS =D>

On very old laptopm, complete trouble free install fully working OS =D>
Kubuntu Alternate AMD64 CD

Installed OK only problems are with HP printer to be resolved with stuff I have found on this site (I hope) and problem with Netgear WG111T which others are experiencing too and I am still working on.

I speak as I find, Kubuntu installs a dream, for me on numerous machins Ubuntu did not.

I am chuffed to bits with Kubuntu as is my colleague as will be my brother once I suss out his teething problems.

My install is 100% working as I want, so I am very happy =D>


How did you get your Netgear WG111T USB wireless adapter to work?

prizrak
September 15th, 2006, 09:17 PM
agreed, yes. Gnash is still not that great... but there's a lot that can be done with XML/SVG that matches Flash from what I understand. Haven't learned much about it.

Not really, as far as making things pretty there is no real need for Flash. For games however it is either that or Java. The open source alternatives might be fine for the end user but not necessarily to the provider.

Someone posted on the forum (and I observed myself) that .ogg is more CPU intensive than .mp3. While almost no difference for a PC there is alot for a portable player, since one the things that people look at is battery life. Also as far as I understand it is impossible to DRM .ogg, which makes it a bad choice for online music stores like iTunes. We can hate on the DRM all we want but RIAA wants it and will keep putting it into their "products".

.ogg support is also kinda iffy, I have an iRiver player that supports it but only if it is constant bit rate it won't play VBR for w/e reason.

DoctorMO
September 15th, 2006, 09:57 PM
Ah well, I believe DRM will fail because going against the public interest has always anoyed people and thus people will learn what it means and learn to hate it.

this might take some time.

.t.
September 15th, 2006, 10:23 PM
Remember everyone: GNU/Linux is free software (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Software). Do not take that for granted. Support this movement and do try to install/use as few closed programs/formats as possible!

See my essays in my sig!

rick_1010
September 16th, 2006, 11:28 PM
Anyone who claims that Windows is the best operating system does not know the first thing about real computing technology. If Linux (and I am assuming this would include similar operating systems such as Unix and those based off BSD) were just toys then why would companies that together are worth billions, if not trillions of dollars (worldwide) rely on these operating systems to run their business processes?

Windows will never be on top as far as the use of large corporations and I think nowadays smaller businesses are starting to take notice of this too and realize that for a truly functional IT system a non-Windows OS is necessary.

Something to always remember is that its only been in the last 10-15 years that computing technology has really come into the mainstream, therefore the majority of people who are rich and have done well in their lives financially have done this most likely in something completely non related to computer technology. Just think to yourself that Linux and other non-Windows OSes are going to always be used by large and increasingly smaller businesses and that just because people that are rich now do not know much about computing technology doesn't mean this will be so in 20, 30 years from now. I personally have trouble imagining a future world in which someone could do very well in most businesses without a firm grasp on what technology offers and how to best use it, there are just too many smart people out there who would compete with you that do know how to effectively use computer technology.

Bree
September 16th, 2006, 11:37 PM
pfft, toy. Whatever, it's my favorite toy :p

AlphaMack
September 17th, 2006, 10:35 AM
If there is anything more ridiculous than calling Linux a 'toy,' it's a bunch of Maccies accusing KDE of ripping off OS X and calling Linux users a 'niche market.'

http://forums.macnn.com/90/mac-os-x/309900/another-mac-os-x-rip-off/

bgedan
September 17th, 2006, 11:21 AM
yeah, well amazing news =D>

There exist people who believe that computers by itselfs are toys. The funny thing about it, is that Windows itself made this image with it's playful and oversimplified interface and it's mainstream appeal.

By the way, i belive where are more sciencetific applications avaible for *nix as games for windows :lol: However many industrial and commercial applications insist on Windows operating systems (e.g. financial businesses, PCB-layout systems, process control engineering, wordprocessing, groupware etc. pp.)

starscalling
September 17th, 2006, 12:08 PM
I understand about Ogg, but is there an open source alternative to Flash that's viable? What's Gnash looking like these days?

You can hardly expect people to ditch proprietary formats if there aren't viable open source alternatives.

ogg is a crap format

.t.
September 17th, 2006, 01:25 PM
Evidence. Please don't post useless information without citations.

Lord Illidan
September 17th, 2006, 01:37 PM
ogg is a crap format

Troll... It might interest you to know that even games are moving towards ogg..and a fair portion of them are Windows only games...

UT 2004, Praetorians, Battle Engine Aquila...those are the games I played which use .ogg and I am sure that there are more...I don't have that many games.

nalmeth
September 17th, 2006, 03:05 PM
ogg is a crap format
I'll take it over wma anyday.

Back to topic, how are things coming Mr.Len?

prizrak
September 17th, 2006, 04:31 PM
Anyone who claims that Windows is the best operating system does not know the first thing about real computing technology. If Linux (and I am assuming this would include similar operating systems such as Unix and those based off BSD) were just toys then why would companies that together are worth billions, if not trillions of dollars (worldwide) rely on these operating systems to run their business processes?

Anyone who says there is a best OS should be used for organ donation. Windows does things that Linux doesn't and vice versa. There are loads of things that both OS's get right and both get wrong. There are also BSD's and such that have different uses as well. OpenBSD is by far the most stable and secure general purpose OS available, it sux as a desktop OS though (from my own experience).


Windows will never be on top as far as the use of large corporations and I think nowadays smaller businesses are starting to take notice of this too and realize that for a truly functional IT system a non-Windows OS is necessary.

Just an FYI.
Linux has a server market share of 25% and a desktop market share or 3-5%. Windows has a server market share of 49% and a desktop market share of 90-95%.

slavik
September 17th, 2006, 07:02 PM
For me, Linux is a development environment. Later on it will become my main environment (if Wine gets things right), because as it is, Windows has nothing to offer to me (besides the games) and I am guessing that the engineer has not heard of Blender? Or that 384 computers running Linux were used to render Final Fantasy the movie, or that IBM's new Blue Genie super computers run Linux, or that Google runs Linux, or even that Microsoft had trouble migrating their hotmail servers (after they bought hotmail) from FreeBSD to Windows 2000?

Tell him to stop living under a rock.

PS: In Ubuntu, I installed UT2k4 and set all settings on high at the resolution of 1280x1024 and had at least 30fps average during 1 round of an assault match. I am pretty sure windows would score similarly.

Brunellus
September 18th, 2006, 03:18 PM
If there is anything more ridiculous than calling Linux a 'toy,' it's a bunch of Maccies accusing KDE of ripping off OS X and calling Linux users a 'niche market.'

http://forums.macnn.com/90/mac-os-x/309900/another-mac-os-x-rip-off/
calls for cross-forum flame jihad are not cool.

Macolytes are entitled to their own flames on their own forums/newsgroups/irc channels/trendy cafes, whatever.

mikesown
September 23rd, 2006, 12:34 AM
I've been using windows for a while. I've dabbled in linux here and there, but I haven't stuck with Linux. I recently decided to give Ubuntu linux a try, and my experience was so-so.

Ubuntu has done a fantastic job in transforming Linux into a usable desktop operating system, however, there is a lack of integration in all of linux. This is not Ubuntu's fault; it's a fault of the open source model. While people may think that it is great to have a ton of options, the truth is that it is not so. It is better to have a single option for packages. For example, in Ubuntu, my sound works in VLC using ALSA, but some apps can't use it, and the volume control in Ubuntu doesn't even work. Why is there both ALSA and OSS? The answer is: because people felt like making another application.

Mac OSX is a perfect example to me of something Ubuntu should be like, albeit open source. Mac OSX "just works." No matter how much you hate macs, you have to admit that it works well. Plug in a device, and it's installed. Hard drives are auto-mounted and put up on the desktop. Put in a CD-ROM or DVD-RW, and it shows up on the desktop. Integrated buring with the shell. System Preferences work with a single type of driver, and never have problems. This is what Ubuntu should be like.

As I mentioned before, the problem is the lack of consistancy between packages. I think that developers need to work together to make a single app to fit each category. Having duplicate applications is more than a nusience for the user-- it's a waste of development power. What's the point of having Konquerer and Firefox when all the developers could be focusing on one project? The answer "because we can" is nothing more than an ignorant answer.

Other than the lack of consistancy between applications, I feel that configuration files are a big problem. Sure, I can go through and edit my X config to add accelerated drivers and my monitors supported resolutions-- but I don't WANT to, and most Windows users don't even know how to edit a configuration file. Ubuntu only gave me the options of 1024x768 when my monitor and graphics card support 1600x1200. I had to edit my X config file to add this resolution. Config files are nothing more than a nusence, and are a perfect example of how non-user-friendly linux is. Developers shouldn't expect that all linux users should have to deal with config files. There need to be well integrated GUIs for configuring each app that are supported by the project and always work.

Driver inconsistancy is also a big problem, in my mind. There need to be standards for linux-- a keyboard driver standard, a sound card driver standard, a video card driver standard, and so on and so forth. A SINGLE driver type should be used, not multiple drivers like ALSA and OSS. It should be the responsibility of the driver writer to conform to the Operating System requirements, not the responsibility of the operating system developers to accomadate different products. Documentation needs to be written for each type of driver, as with Apple.

In conclusion, Linux is lacking a feeling of unification. This is mostly due to duplicate projects and/or drivers existing to do (almost) the same thing. As I said previously, this is nothing more than a waste of development power. Developers need to stop being arrogant, and decide on a single standard that pleases everyone, for the good of Linux.

kpkeerthi
September 23rd, 2006, 01:01 AM
There need to be standards for linux-- a keyboard driver standard, a sound card driver standard, a video card driver standard, and so on and so forth. A SINGLE driver type should be used, not multiple drivers like ALSA and OSS.


Well said.

Cynical
September 23rd, 2006, 01:15 AM
ogg is a crap format

Ogg is a container format, vorbis is the audio codec. People don't seem to be keeping that straight here. And if you are saying that mp3 is better than vorbis, I'd disagree (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vorbis#Codec_comparisons)

croak77
September 23rd, 2006, 01:18 AM
Well you can't really compare Apple with GNU/Linux since Apple controls their hardware. GNU/Linux does not. OSS was around first, then ALSA came along. OSS is only needed if ALSA does not work or if you want to release a driver on other Unix OS's like BSD.

As far as applications goes, not everyone likes Firefox. I know I don't. I'd much rather use Konqueror but I know some prefer Firefox, or even Epiphany. Choice is good. You shouldn't be forced to use one app. You should choose the one the fits your needs. And not everyone has the same needs.

For X, you can use a GUI if you want. Just type sudo dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg but I prefer to manually edit my xorg.conf instead.

croak77
September 23rd, 2006, 01:36 AM
Depends on what 'crap' means. If 'crap' means not widely supported by popular portable mp3 players, then yes it could be considered 'crap'. But then again it's not Xiph's fault that Creative, Apple and others don't support ogg out of the box.