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nihilocrat
July 28th, 2006, 05:36 PM
I was recently talking to a computer science graduate from the University of Calgary who is now writing backend Windows applications for Panasonic... and as I was installing Xubuntu beside him using Visual Basic 2005, I had to ask him: "Why are you programming for Windows?"... in short, his response was "Because that's where the money is."

He explained to me that most people are running Windows and even Windows backends such as Windows Server 2003, and even if they are Unix or Novell finatics, someone has Windows Server 2003 lying around to run his DBMSes.

He says that UNIX programmers had made a OS that was as good if not better then Windows XP TEN years ago ("they were light years ahead" he claims)... the only thing is, it's a marketing game, and Microsoft is winning.

Lastly, the Senior Consultant for a multi-national programming company says that we loves the Windows API and finds it extremely easy to program with.

I know Linux distros have something along these lines, but until they have a SDK that you can run on any distro, and easily program C or C++ with it, then Linux will be closer to the mainstream...

This is the single most scariest thing for me. I need to be able to get a job out of college and I don't want to get a job I hate in retail or food service like the majority of my graduated friends. I will have two years of professional experience by then in Linux system administration (specifically managing LAMP stacks), but 80% of the job offers out there are asking for experience in WAIM (Windows ASP.NET IIS MSSQL) types of setups. I figure I'm already familiar with all the underlying principles and would simply need to learn The Microsoft Way of doing things, but it's something I couldn't put on a resume. It just really, really, REALLY bothers me that most of the IT industry still buys into Microsoft FUD while any sort of *NIX is going to provide a cheaper, easier-to-manage, more efficient, more secure, and more stable solution in almost every service. I can see how Windows is more solid for directory services and other things that need central administration, but for just about anything else (I'm thinking mainly of web services, web apps, DBs, virtualization, file servers, etc.) it's easy to avoid Microsoft stupidity.

The Microsoft insistence on ease-of-use and standards avoidance shouldn't be carried over to the server realm. Since Windows concentrates a lot on making it easy for an administrator to set things up with no prior experience, it encourages incompetence in the long run. *NIX usually expects the user to subject themselves to a steeper initial learning curve but reward them with an OS which is more customizable and easier to operate as an expert.

aysiu
July 28th, 2006, 05:38 PM
Look for jobs in Portland, Oregon (http://portland.craigslist.org/cgi-bin/search?areaID=9&subAreaID=0&query=linux&catAbbreviation=jjj) (current home of Linus Torvalds)--plenty of Linux admin stuff.

nihilocrat
July 28th, 2006, 05:47 PM
Look for jobs in Portland, Oregon (http://portland.craigslist.org/cgi-bin/search?areaID=9&subAreaID=0&query=linux&catAbbreviation=jjj) (current home of Linus Torvalds)--plenty of Linux admin stuff.

Thanks for the tip. I want to move to the west coast, but I need to save up money first. I figure my best bet is to weasel my way into a job through word-of-mouth and knowing people ("networking") for the interim. That's the way I got this job, but things might be harder seeing as how I'm not going to be a student anymore.

Lord Illidan
July 28th, 2006, 05:50 PM
You mean like say... PowerPoint? Maybe Vista? Dreamweaver? Maya? Google?!? None of those are really descriptive as to what they do - the difference is that they have marketing groups behind them pushing the names of those products in the media. A touch harder to do that with open source software and a marketing budget of 0. But lo and behold, look how much Firefox has started gaining popularity after marketing campaigns - yet it has nothing to do with barbecuing small furry animals. ;)

The difference is that everyone already knows about them, while hardly anybody outside of the linux community knows about xmms and the like. Also, Google is a search engine, not an application. Firefox required the marketing campaigns and the zealotry of spreadfirefox.org to become famous. Before, very little people knew about it, too. And its cool name doesn't hurt.

True, we have a marketing budget of 0. But it doesn't require a lot of budget to make some more descriptive names.


Coincidentally...

GIMP - GNU Image Manipulation Program
VLC - Video Lan Client
XMMS - X MultiMedia System

I know that they are acronymns. But in the menus, they don't appear like that, don't they? What about VI? Most acroymns are designed as injokes, with little or no regard about the end users.



I personally think the reason why Linux isn't more mainstream though is that most people who aren't computer enthusiasts just don't care what OS they're using. And the vast majority of computer owners I know just aren't the computer enthusiast variety. When you start seeing Linux distros that don't require you to be a computer geek to keep them running, and more commercial applications/games for Linux - then I think you'll see an increase in popularity. SLED 10 seems to be a step in that direction too, by the way - but it's mostly aimed at enterprise desktop users.

I agree with you here on this point. Userfriendliness is a big deal. And we also have to work hard to improve Linux's image.

About commercial apps, and games, I agree too. However, it is interesting that although even Mac OSX doesn't have that many games, people still revere it. Perhaps it is Job's reality distorting bubble...or the fact that games don't matter that much...or the perception that the Mac is not a suitable games machine, and will never be. (Ok, perhaps...it might be in the future)

aysiu
July 28th, 2006, 05:59 PM
However, it is interesting that although even Mac OSX doesn't have that many games, people still revere it. Perhaps it is Job's reality distorting bubble...or the fact that games don't matter that much... I'm in total agreement. People on these forums are far more likely to be PC gamers, but the truth is that has nothing to do with Linux hitting the mainstream, as most mainstream people game on consoles (Gamecube, PS2, XBox)... or don't game at all.

Many of the criticisms of Linux's "readiness for the desktop" can also be leveled at Mac, and few people contest Mac OS X's readiness.

These are things Mac has that Linux doesn't:

1. Self-installing binaries without dependency worries.
2. Preinstalled operating system.
3. Commercial support (some hardware, some software)
4. Marketing

egon spengler
July 28th, 2006, 07:08 PM
The difference is that everyone already knows about them, while hardly anybody outside of the linux community knows about xmms and the like. Also, Google is a search engine, not an application. Firefox required the marketing campaigns and the zealotry of spreadfirefox.org to become famous. Before, very little people knew about it, too. And its cool name doesn't hurt.

True, we have a marketing budget of 0. But it doesn't require a lot of budget to make some more descriptive names.

That makes no sense at all. People were not born knowing about dreamweaver or maya, they learnt about them and guess what, undescriptive names didn't stop them gaining support. As far as google not being an app that's besides the point, the point is that it is massively successful even with a noon descriptive name. Poor naming (except for perhaps pornviewer) is a red herring, it has little bearing.

You basically admit as much yourself in fact when you cede that the name not being descriptive is no problem, as long as the user knows what it does

aysiu
July 28th, 2006, 07:16 PM
Successful applications with non-descriptive names:
Firefox (web browser)
Excel (spreadsheet)
Quicktime (media player)
AIM (instant messenger)
Skype (voice-over-IP)
Dreamweaver (website design)
Quark Xpress (desktop publishing)
Outlook (email/calendar)

Unsuccessful applications with descriptive names
OpenOffice Calc (spreadsheet)
Scribus (desktop publishing)
KMail (email)
Rhythmbox (music player)
Kolourpaint (paint program)
MPlayer (media player)

prizrak
July 28th, 2006, 09:29 PM
Mplayer is actually pretty well known outside Linux.

aysiu
July 28th, 2006, 09:31 PM
Mplayer is actually pretty well known outside Linux.
Wasn't to me before I started using Linux. I can assure you my in-laws, my parents, and my wife have never heard of MPlayer.

the_one
July 28th, 2006, 10:13 PM
Linux is definitely ready for primetime!

#1 PR...the general public thinks Linux is "only for geeks", "difficult to use", and "has very few useful applications" The Linux Community needs to be as organized about changing public preception as they are about development. Phrases like "the web runs on Apache" need to be everywhere.

#2 Marketing...With Apple now running TV ads, what little market share that Linux has will shrink. It takes BIG Money for marketing...Maybe Novell/Suse or Red Hat can get the ball rolling...maybe a Linux friendly ad agency will step in...May I'm dreaming.[-o<

#3 Development...Novell/Suse (again) is starting to support developers...I don't know if Ubuntu is, but others should follow suit.

#4 Drivers...reverse engineering has been suprisingly fast, but more manufacturers need to be encouraged (nagged, coerced) to support Linux.

#5 Support...While there is huge support for Linux users, most forum postings consist of "me too, I have the same problem", "don't use that app, use this one instead", "RTFM!!", or "post your DMESG, LSPCI, Etc output". Support needs to be better at addressing the user's problem. Distro developers (Debian in particular) should do better at support. I'm surprised that Ubuntu and Knoppix have better support for Debian than Debian. More and more new apps are coming out with little or no documentation.

I started with DOS, and I can see Windows becoming bloated and more expensive with each version. I call Microsoft the "Borg" of of software. I think most commercial software is overpriced and I'm moving to Linux.

I am definitely a Linux fan but these are the issues that I see that keep Linux from making it to mainstream.

Like the Betamax...superior marketing wins over superior technology.

the_one
July 28th, 2006, 10:29 PM
Mplayer is actually pretty well known outside Linux.

That's because there's a Windows version of MPlayer

prizrak
July 29th, 2006, 12:54 AM
Wasn't to me before I started using Linux. I can assure you my in-laws, my parents, and my wife have never heard of MPlayer.
I didn't say universaly known :) Firefox is also not universally known but well known none the less (or is it nonetheless?).


That's because there's a Windows version of MPlayer

Didn't say there wasn't ;)

aysiu
July 29th, 2006, 01:43 AM
My in-laws, parents, and wife all use Firefox. Firefox is far more popular than MPlayer among non-Linux users.

prizrak
July 29th, 2006, 01:58 AM
My in-laws, parents, and wife all use Firefox. Firefox is far more popular than MPlayer among non-Linux users.

No question about it, still not exactly unknown ;)

Tomosaur
July 29th, 2006, 02:12 AM
It's not that Linux isn't ready for the mainstream, it's that the mainstream isn't ready for Linux. I was taught how to use windows in both school and at home from as far back as I can remember. Every office computer I see runs windows. We've been trained to operate a logical machine without using logic - dumbly accepting pre-compiled executables hurling all kinds of superfluous crap at our computers, letting the programs and developers limit us to what we're allowed to do rather than what we want to do, and letting ourselves become lazy and apathetic by relying entirely on a WIMP system which is well known for inhibiting the user.

If people realised how they have very little control over their own computers with windows installed, maybe they'd start to see the benefits of linux.

bobbybobington
July 29th, 2006, 04:37 AM
1. 3rd party software. Linux needs software companies to port or write their programs for linux. this is caused mainly by the dominance of....

2.Microsoft. They invest heavily so developers for software companies write their programs for windows.They also use questionable practices to ensure their OS is the only one preinstalled by...

3.Hardware companies.linux needs to be able to be preinstalled by them so joeuser has to make a conscience effort to go and buy windows instead of just keeping linux which by this time has certainly grown on him.But this is unlikely to happen unless microsoft's power is challenged by...

4.The linux community. Yes were are the main problem, but also the solution. Unless linux vendors and distros unify and challenge hardware companies and really pressure them, Linux cant really go that far in terms of numbers. Once the number of linux users increases due to preinstallation by hardware companies all the other pieces will fall into place.

prizrak
July 29th, 2006, 04:40 AM
It's not that Linux isn't ready for the mainstream, it's that the mainstream isn't ready for Linux. I was taught how to use windows in both school and at home from as far back as I can remember. Every office computer I see runs windows. We've been trained to operate a logical machine without using logic - dumbly accepting pre-compiled executables hurling all kinds of superfluous crap at our computers, letting the programs and developers limit us to what we're allowed to do rather than what we want to do, and letting ourselves become lazy and apathetic by relying entirely on a WIMP system which is well known for inhibiting the user.

If people realised how they have very little control over their own computers with windows installed, maybe they'd start to see the benefits of linux.

Don't tell them it's Linux. I got an anecdote for you on the subject. I got a new laptop and now my mother wants my old one but it has Ubuntu on it and she wants Windows (which won't happen unless she can crack my password and install it herself, would be quite a fit with her being very computer illiterate outside of Office/Web/Email). I told her that it is my laptop and will have Linux on it and if she wants to use it that's fine but I won't change my set up. The following conversation occured after that.

Her: But I just learned how to use Windows I have no clue how to use Linux.
Me: Mom, you've used Linux before...
Her: No I didn't what are you smoking?
Me: Remember that time you needed to find my friend's phone number when my cell's battery was dead and you couldn't reach me? (I know it makes me sound like I'm five, I'm really not she's just well a jewish mother :) )
Her: Yeah?
Me: Well you went into the address book on my laptop and got the number from it w/o a single issue didn't you?
Her: Well yeah it was pretty easy, click on the icon then click address book (mind you she uses Outlook on Windows and I have Thunderbird so the programs aren't the same)
Me: Mom that was on Linux, I haven't had Windows on the laptop for like a year now
Her: Oh?! I didn't know that it didn't seem different.

Reality is that from a user perspective (and I do mean user not someone who does ANY tinkering, people who don't even turn on showing extensions in Windows) there is very little difference. Learning OpenOffice or AbiWord is no different than going from Office XP to 2k3 to 2k7 to w/e MS comes up with. The icons are still there, the list of Windows is there, alot of the same programs are now around for both platforms. There are 2 things holding Linux back (and one is more important then the other)
1) Hardware support (basically boils down to lack of OEM contracts)
2) Knowledge - if people knew about Linux and thought it would be a nice thing to try they might ask their local BestBuy about it and the more people ask the more they would think about pre installing it on their machines. Also there is more chance for people to find out about System76 and the like when they are getting a new system.

Marketing is greater than quality, Linux companies don't seem to realize that.

prizrak
July 29th, 2006, 04:50 AM
2.Microsoft. They invest heavily so developers for software companies write their programs for windows.They also use questionable practices to ensure their OS is the only one preinstalled by...
The also supply interconnected tools. I'm working on a DB Team of a certain huge company (here is a hint, they are the reason you can't have mp3 support by default in Linux) and they mostly use MS SQL. Well the latest version is very nicely integrated with Visual Studio. You can open VS interface straight out of the server interface and wright your code. You can plug procedures into your VS projects seamlessly you can also translate your program code into procedures. All in all it's great for development it makes it a very robust and flexible system. Of course it forces you to use an MS product.
VS is a great product and quite a few developers use it, however if you want non MS SQL server you will have to invest more time and effort into development as opposed to using both products. Vice versa also works. Moreover when you get the SQL 2k5 developer version you get a light version of VS for it.
Personally I would rather develop in Java so that my programs are cross platform w/o the need for recompilation but I must say that MS's tools are very alluring as they do help speed up alot of things and show you how integration can help.

altonbr
July 29th, 2006, 05:41 PM
The also supply interconnected tools. I'm working on a DB Team of a certain huge company (here is a hint, they are the reason you can't have mp3 support by default in Linux) and they mostly use MS SQL. Well the latest version is very nicely integrated with Visual Studio. You can open VS interface straight out of the server interface and wright your code. You can plug procedures into your VS projects seamlessly you can also translate your program code into procedures. All in all it's great for development it makes it a very robust and flexible system. Of course it forces you to use an MS product.
VS is a great product and quite a few developers use it, however if you want non MS SQL server you will have to invest more time and effort into development as opposed to using both products. Vice versa also works. Moreover when you get the SQL 2k5 developer version you get a light version of VS for it.
Personally I would rather develop in Java so that my programs are cross platform w/o the need for recompilation but I must say that MS's tools are very alluring as they do help speed up alot of things and show you how integration can help.

And is that a good thing or a bad thing? I've been troubled by this as well. I wish more and more people would program in Java for cross-platformability (lol) but the best SDK (such as Eclipse) just doesn't even match Visual Studio 2005. So is it Java's fault? No, just a company is helping to get people to write in their proprietary code (C#) rather then a free, more robust platfrom (Java). So I'm stuck, are we the dinosaurs that are going to be extinct because we hold on to old practices and Microsoft is actually doing a good thing, or is this just the Marketing Giant closing it's grip on not just End Users but Developers too.

prizrak
July 29th, 2006, 06:40 PM
And is that a good thing or a bad thing? I've been troubled by this as well. I wish more and more people would program in Java for cross-platformability (lol) but the best SDK (such as Eclipse) just doesn't even match Visual Studio 2005. So is it Java's fault? No, just a company is helping to get people to write in their proprietary code (C#) rather then a free, more robust platfrom (Java). So I'm stuck, are we the dinosaurs that are going to be extinct because we hold on to old practices and Microsoft is actually doing a good thing, or is this just the Marketing Giant closing it's grip on not just End Users but Developers too.

It's not about new or old. One is about integration and another portability. MS tools work extremely well if you just want to use one system but they suck at switching from one to another. Our tools allow us to move programs anywhere we want but we have to spend a little more effort on it. Both paradigms have the right to exist as they both have advantages and disadvantages. The problem with MS is that they are snatching up the developers and happen to be a monopoly. That is my main issue really their OS is horrible the rest of their product line is excellent.

mafitzpatrick
July 30th, 2006, 12:59 AM
Rather than it being a case of "everyone working on the same thing" isn't the point that progress made should be better shared?

Like a previous poster mentions, people re-translating something more than once is a waste of time. Application development time being spent on configuring software for the different directory/config structures across distributions is a waste of time. Writing new software that does exactly the same thing as another bit of software (including on a different desktop) is a waste of time.

Of course, it's peoples spare time and they're entitled to do what they like with it. If something is rubbish, by all means re-do it. But how much is simply down to poor communication?

Could it all simply be solved with an open Linux database? A single place to check "has this been done?" and perhaps "what needs done".

On the KDE/Gnome thing, I really wish they would be interoperable at the application level - in effect making it no different to an app where it is actually running. That is the only way to achieve real real desktop choice instead of counterintuitive GUI mismatch.

"My eyes hurt!" "Yes, thats the searing pain of freedom."

aysiu
July 30th, 2006, 01:45 AM
It's happening, mafitzpatrick:
http://portland.freedesktop.org/wiki/

yaaarrrgg
July 30th, 2006, 04:02 AM
I agree that Unix tends to be a little cryptic. That was one of my biggest hurdles, coming from a Windows background.

A simple compromise would be to ALWAYS make the name a little longer in the drop down menus, like:

NAME Short description

For example:

GIMP Image Editor

That way, people still know it's GIMP, but it becomes more of a brand name.

Also, for the shell, it would be easy to map a simpler (more verbose) alias to important command line tools. For an English example, maybe something like:

move -> mv
delete -> rm
filter -> grep

That way, it might be easier for newbies to use. Of course, this should be able to be disabled, so that it doesn't annoy seasoned users.

egon spengler
July 30th, 2006, 04:08 AM
Like a previous poster mentions, people re-translating something more than once is a waste of time.

Actually what he said was that the translations are near identical, to me that would imply that probably someone took, say, the suse translation and used it to create a knoppix translation just updating here and there where needed. What's wrong with that?


Application development time being spent on configuring software for the different directory/config structures across distributions is a waste of time.

I know there is that one distribution that recreated the directory structure but don't all of the rest have identical structure?



Writing new software that does exactly the same thing as another bit of software (including on a different desktop) is a waste of time

No it isn't. You wouldn't apply that logic to anything else (food, drink, books) so why apply it here. I would bet that you have never once asked "Why do they make so many different types of t-shirts? They all do the same thing"


Of course, it's peoples spare time and they're entitled to do what they like with it.

Well ok then, end of story. What some of you seem to overlook is that the developers of distro x had the oppurtunity to contribute to fedora before they started their own distro, but they didn't want to. So let's say that we make this offical 20 distros or whatever is is that people want. If a developer doesn't want to work as for any of them and would prefer to start his/her own thing do you mean to suggest that he shouldn't be allowed to?

kornelix
July 30th, 2006, 06:01 AM
... What some of you seem to overlook is that the developers of distro x had the oppurtunity to contribute to fedora before they started their own distro, but they didn't want to. So let's say that we make this offical 20 distros or whatever is is that people want. If a developer doesn't want to work as for any of them and would prefer to start his/her own thing do you mean to suggest that he shouldn't be allowed to?

Of course not. But what if the motivation is purely "doing my own thing"? Is that justified? Should I spend time checking out such a product? How do I know which new distro has a useful innovation (from the 500+ now sloshing around)? I have no good answer. I am just making the point that the current Linux situation is ridiculous, 90% of the investment is wasted, and general progress is way too slow.

FooAtari
July 30th, 2006, 09:37 AM
I have had Ubuntu on PC for a few weeks, spent a week trying to get my wireless card to work. Several days trying to figure out how to get write access to XP documents folder and have now spent nearly a week trying to get webcam to work, with all How-to's failing at some point...

I work and have other hobbies and commitments and I really don't have time for this much problems when I have a functioning OS in the shape of Windows. I did expect to spend some time installing and setting up Ubuntu, but this is now taking the p**s!

I had to buy a new Wireless card before I was able to use Wireless and I have a Logiech web cam so it's not like it's a not a big name...

I read that Ubuntu was the linux for the everyone, well so far, in my experience it just isn't. I am a competant windows users and I work in IT support, but I am completely new to Linux and have lost all patience with it, I really do not have time to spend days on end getting my hardware to work, which is a shame as I really wanted to get into this :(

I wouldn't dream of giving this to a non-computer literate person, my mum and dad for example can use windows fairly well, but I think would never be off the phone if I installed this on their PC.

I want delete the partition just yet, but right now im off to Windows.

Titus A Duxass
July 30th, 2006, 09:41 AM
I want delete the partition just yet, but right now im off to Windows. - I think you mean "I won't..."

Well goodbye and have fun.

Lord Illidan
July 30th, 2006, 09:42 AM
Goodbye.

scxtt
July 30th, 2006, 09:57 AM
. . . I really don't have time for this much problems when I have a functioning OS in the shape of Windows.that's why you pay +$100 for it ... if you want to blame 'someone' for these supposed linux shortcomings, blame hardware vendors - but to a larger degree, just blame capitalism ...

actually, don't blame anyone - just stop bitching about something that's free ...

Anduu
July 30th, 2006, 09:58 AM
That is a damn shame....:sad:

Don't blame Linux...until the harware manufacturers get on board and start making the drivers Linux will never be as "friendly" as Windows.

kinematic
July 30th, 2006, 10:04 AM
That is a damn shame....:sad:

Don't blame Linux...until the harware manufacturers get on board and start making the drivers Linux will never be as "friendly" as Windows.

not true for me.
with my hardware i've never had a problem with any distro i've tried.
everthing works out of the box and i find linux to be more user friendly then windows.

ProjectGod
July 30th, 2006, 10:05 AM
unless you get a kick out of using computers and trying new challenging things... i guess linux just isnt for you.

tseliot
July 30th, 2006, 10:12 AM
I read that Ubuntu was the linux for the everyone, well so far, in my experience it just isn't. I am a competant windows users and I work in IT support, but I am completely new to Linux and have lost all patience with it, I really do not have time to spend days on end getting my hardware to work, which is a shame as I really wanted to get into this :(

I wouldn't dream of giving this to a non-computer literate person, my mum and dad for example can use windows fairly well, but I think would never be off the phone if I installed this on their PC.

I want delete the partition just yet, but right now im off to Windows.

Ubuntu is not for everyone. Your webcam might have native drivers only for Windows (mine works out of the box in Ubuntu).

Same thing applies to your Wireless card.

Writing your Windows (NTFS) partition might not be a good idea. At least in Ubuntu. And BTW try writing your Ubuntu partition from Windows.

Puppy Linux now offers write support for NTFS.

Ubuntu is not the only GNU/Linux distro.

You might want to try something easier for you.

Go to:
http://distrowatch.com/

and choose a distro. There's plenty of them.

Goodbye

tseliot
July 30th, 2006, 10:14 AM
I have moved the thread to the Ubuntu Cafe (since it wasn't a support thread)

philippe_carlo
July 30th, 2006, 10:19 AM
I've seen windows fail horribly too. And actually my most horrible desaster scenarios in terms of crashing and data loss have 'MS Windows' written all over them.

Getting to 'know' Linux may be a little harder and you may need to adjust your hardware a little towards it, but if you spend enough time around computers, you certainly would learn to appreciate the reliability of Linux.

Anduu
July 30th, 2006, 10:19 AM
not true for me.
with my hardware i've never had a problem with any distro i've tried.
everthing works out of the box and i find linux to be more user friendly then windows.

Niether have I...that just means that the hardware we are using works in Linux in general.

What most poeple don't realise is that when they buy a Windows box all the configuring has been done for them...just take a look at any Windows support forum and you will see almost as many poeple like us trying to install Windows and having the same kinds of harware issues.

Lord Illidan
July 30th, 2006, 10:31 AM
Niether have I...that just means that the hardware we are using works in Linux in general.

What most poeple don't realise is that when they buy a Windows box all the configuring has been done for them...just take a look at any Windows support forum and you will see almost as many poeple like us trying to install Windows and having the same kinds of harware issues.

Very true... And anyway, configuring in Linux is more fun than in Windows..

KFASheldon
July 30th, 2006, 10:52 AM
Well on my laptop Sony Vaio GRT715M 2.8Ghz P4, everything works well in Linux only have to config wireless and NDLS wrapper takes care of that quite well. With XP I have to install drivers for sound, graphics, modem, network card and power managment and a few more to work 100% - HMMM I'l stick with Linux

On my desktop, Athlon XP 3000, Nvidia, everything works, save my sony webcam (but then you try finding drivers for it on XP - just don't exist without original disk it would never work) In windows I need to install sound, graphics and ide drivers for my Promise Ultra 100 (2nd ide pci card) along with some others.

On my MAC iMAC DV SE 512Mb ram, hmm XP will not install and MAC OSX - newest version is getting slow on this machine, Ubuntu installed fine, after a little tweak with xorg.conf (bad default settings from live CD - does need fixing), all works well, shame no accelorated drivers for ATI ppc cards though.

And after a few litte tweaks and very good How To's on this forumn I have full NTFS R/W (ntfs-3g) on my extranal 200Gb drive full of data. Accelorated 'Visa' pounding desktop (xgl/compiz) and fully working scanner and printer, MP3 player, wireless and house network towindows and xbox machines.

Big benifit - never crashed once in three weeks, easy to use, lots of software for free, can't find a thing I can't do.

I Love Ubuntu - Linux for real people.

FooAtari
July 30th, 2006, 10:54 AM
Hi tselliot, Documents on a shared FAT32 partition :D

I was in a bad mood when writing that earlier...

I know it's free, but it doesnt make things any less annoying when my hardware doesnt work. I know it's not all Linux's fault, and I also know it's not for everyone.

But when I was standing in the newsagents yesterday I saw at least three magazines with Ubuntu all over the covers, stating that it was the linux for everyone and legitimate replacement for windows (not that I beleived that anyway, it requires a little know how to use any distro)

I do get a kick out of using computers (I wouldnt work with them and use them everyday if I didnt!) and usually like trying new challenging things, but spending a week getting hardware to work seems like a bit of a waste of time to me :(

In saying that it is only the web cam that is not working now, but since trying to get to work my system has started freezing frequently. But I have requested some help in the sound and video forum, hopefully I can get it going (im still using Ubuntu right now anyway)

kriding
July 30th, 2006, 11:00 AM
It's a shame your leaving but you have to do that you have to do.I've also found that linux can be frustrating...until you know what your doing..same as windows!

More vendors do need to get on board and support more hardware, and until they do, linux will always be a little more 'fun' to figure out, but on the whole it's a good OS and offers so much more then windows ever could..not to mention, the extra control Linux offers, means that it is actually easier to fix then windows

I switched from GNOME to KDE and I found my Linux experience improved a great deal, even installing and repairing hardware drivers...windows can't do that....

Virogenesis
July 30th, 2006, 11:05 AM
Blame yourself for buying a unsupported crap wireless card....

darrenrxm
July 30th, 2006, 11:07 AM
I am a competant windows users and I work in IT support

I am a high school dropout and I have gotten Ubuntu working fine for me. Working in IT your going to have to deal with linux sooner or later . Why not now?

Derek Djons
July 30th, 2006, 11:08 AM
unfortunately things aren't working out for you. Don't mind some of the reactions here. Though Ubuntu Linux is a free OS, it doesn't means you may not talk about it's pros and cons. Only talking can make it a better distribution in the future.

As some other posted before me, why not try to find an other distribution which might suit you more? I still often install an other (new) distribution to check it out... it's in my nature. I like exploring things. But I can understand when you're having commitments and matters which must be addressed Linux isn't the right hobby.

Whether with an other distribution, OR Mac OS X or back to Microsoft Windows, good luck!

mips
July 30th, 2006, 11:08 AM
The press and linux zealots sometimes do more harm than good with their Linux/Ubuntu evangelism by creating unrealistic expectations within people.

GeneralZod
July 30th, 2006, 11:14 AM
The press and linux zealots sometimes do more harm than good with their Linux/Ubuntu evangelism by creating unrealistic expectations within people.

Hear hear. Inflated expectations from a horde of Linux zealots very nearly put me off Linux for life.

sharkboy
July 30th, 2006, 11:21 AM
I work and have other hobbies and commitments and I really don't have time for this much problems when I have a functioning OS in the shape of Windows.

Ok. Bye.

tomplast
July 30th, 2006, 11:36 AM
I have had Ubuntu on PC for a few weeks, spent a week trying to get my wireless card to work. Several days trying to figure out how to get write access to XP documents folder and have now spent nearly a week trying to get webcam to work, with all How-to's failing at some point...

I work and have other hobbies and commitments and I really don't have time for this much problems when I have a functioning OS in the shape of Windows. I did expect to spend some time installing and setting up Ubuntu, but this is now taking the p**s!

I had to buy a new Wireless card before I was able to use Wireless and I have a Logiech web cam so it's not like it's a not a big name...

I read that Ubuntu was the linux for the everyone, well so far, in my experience it just isn't. I am a competant windows users and I work in IT support, but I am completely new to Linux and have lost all patience with it, I really do not have time to spend days on end getting my hardware to work, which is a shame as I really wanted to get into this :(

I wouldn't dream of giving this to a non-computer literate person, my mum and dad for example can use windows fairly well, but I think would never be off the phone if I installed this on their PC.

I want delete the partition just yet, but right now im off to Windows.

I'm sorry to hear about you're unfortunate luck with Ubuntu so far. I do must tell you (as many allready has) that not all companies are willing to create drivers for Linux due to laziness and Microsoft tyranny. My Windows is totally nuts when it comes to drivers and the fact is that some of my stuff doesn't work in Ubuntu (like my webcam (common problem)) and installing drivers in Ubuntu is different from Windows it's actually most times more easy in Ubuntu then in Windows.

Day after day you can read about new technologies and improvements for Linux under developement, those little useful tools are coming more and more and Linux is getting more user-friendly for every day that passes by.

Most times it's possible to get your hardware working so I would suggest that you try to ask again and see if anyone can help you solve your problems.

FooAtari
July 30th, 2006, 11:51 AM
Hmmm, I said I was just a bit annoyed when I wrote the original post and have since said I have posted request for help with the web cam and I'm sticking with Ubuntu for a bit longer.

Still some posts saying nothing but bye, some freindly people around here ;) Seems a few people took this pretty personally...

As for the comment about buying a crap unsupported card, I bought it before trying deciding to trying linux, so dont judge me please.

And *** for having to deal with linux sooner or later in IT, I work in large local authority and we have two unix servers, which we have specialist adminstrators who look after them, so maybe, maybe not :) Most of out techs are windows only

Dinerty
July 30th, 2006, 11:55 AM
Something which I have learnt with linux is, "Not one distro suits all", just because Ubuntu has had a few problems with hardwarea and so forth does not mean every other linux distroy will either.

I tried Mepis 6 (http://www.mepis.org/node/1462) which could not detect my wireless or correct screen resolution, whereas Ubuntu found absolutely everything.

Try Mepis 6 live CD and see how that goes

Adamant1988
July 30th, 2006, 12:05 PM
How can you *honestly* expect Linux to work on everything, it just can't, and won't, unless you buy known friendly hardware. IF you're not willing to spend the money on parts for this 'free' operating system, you should probably stick with spending money on the OS (and parts) for the non-free one (Windows), ALSO just because Ubuntu has problems detecting your hardware correctly doesn't mean every single distro will... Linspire is known for having excellent hardware detection and configuration.

Just because Linux is aiming to be compatible with as much as possible doesn't mean it actually is... look at mac os X, I don't see anyone installing it on PC's... because it's just not compatible with the hardware... yet no one questions mac os X's readiness as an OS.

On a side note, I'm sick of people attacking linux because you have a bad experience with something... Have you checked the forums? YES Linux has poor wireless support, but I had mine up and running in under one hour after I bought the appropriate hardware (and I'm not the only one). Please stop with the "linux isn't ready" technique for getting support/causing drama.

So, in short, try something that is known to be compatible, or stop complaining =\

Johnsie
July 30th, 2006, 12:55 PM
If you don't like Linux then just go back to Windows. I bet those "Unix Specialists" get paid more though :-p

There are things in Linux that do need to be improved. Let's not shy away from that. If hardware manufacturers wont help us out then we need to help ourselves and make more of our own drivers. Compatibility issues are the main reason why people are afraid of Linux and that's why we need to address them. We can't make other people/companies do that for us, we have to do it ourselves.

When Linux becomes more popular then the comanies will start to follow suit but we can't make Linux popular if it has too many compatibility issues.

FooAtari
July 30th, 2006, 01:33 PM
I bet they get paid more as well :D

I got the webcam working i think. Like I said, I was just annoyed this morning, I think I got out of the wrong of the bed, I was in a crappy mood before trying to get the camera going, and that just p***ed me off even more.

So it's all good just now. Next, the mp3 support!

Adamant1988
July 30th, 2006, 01:50 PM
save yourself some time when it comes to multimedia... just use easyubuntu or Automatix.

PatrickMay16
July 30th, 2006, 01:56 PM
I like Ubuntu and Linux a lot. But we have all got to admit that there are some plain ridiculous things, like software mixing of sound. Man, if you haven't got hardware mixing, you're in for an annoy--
/body/hands: device or resource busy

Vorian
July 30th, 2006, 02:03 PM
save yourself some time when it comes to multimedia... just use easyubuntu or Automatix and break your computer!

:confused:

Footissimo
July 30th, 2006, 02:07 PM
I disagree with the comments made about increased publicity being bad. Sure, we'll get some bad stories of people getting mad because some hardware doesn't work, there's no equivalent of XYZ software, things don't work like Windows , but on the flipside there will also be people who enjoy Ubuntu / Linux and people who don't have problems...and the more people using, the more hardware and software support.

Not that hardware support is that bad anyway...try any other non-MS, non-Linux OS on a white box PC and see how well things go..

Adamant1988
July 30th, 2006, 02:21 PM
I've used easyubuntu on 4 computers and not a one of them is broken... hrmmmm....

aeto
July 30th, 2006, 02:31 PM
personally i feel linux should b restricted to those who are interested to learn more about computers/networking. To hell with the term user-friendly. Actually Linux itself indirectly tells u "try me at ur own risk" hahah..

prizrak
July 30th, 2006, 03:40 PM
I agree that Unix tends to be a little cryptic. That was one of my biggest hurdles, coming from a Windows background.

A simple compromise would be to ALWAYS make the name a little longer in the drop down menus, like:

NAME Short description

For example:

GIMP Image Editor

That way, people still know it's GIMP, but it becomes more of a brand name.

Also, for the shell, it would be easy to map a simpler (more verbose) alias to important command line tools. For an English example, maybe something like:

move -> mv
delete -> rm
filter -> grep

That way, it might be easier for newbies to use. Of course, this should be able to be disabled, so that it doesn't annoy seasoned users.
Your first point makes sense, or it could be just called GNU Image Manipulation Programm (GIMP).
The second one is fairly useless, newbies wouldn't be playing with the CLI unless they want to learn it and in that case it's easy enough to pick up a book.

AndyCooll
July 30th, 2006, 03:50 PM
I'm glad that you stuck at it and things are now sorting themselves out.

I want to take issue with you on one point however. It is true that saying that Linux is for everyone is misleading. However, to say that it is for non-computer literate people only is just as misleading.

On my box for instance to install Ubuntu a new user would need to know the following:
- how to install the OS itself (the Ubuntu installer guides you through this)
- how to add a password to access my wireless network (my wirelesws network card was found on install)
- how to install and use EasyUbuntu/or Automatix

To use Windows they'd need to know:
- how to install the OS itself (again the installer takes you through this)
- how to install the driver and set up the wireless network card (my wireless network card wasn't found)
- how to install the driver and setup the webcam
- how to install the Office software
- how to install some codecs for watching certain movie files
- how to install etc etc

Now ...exactly how is Ubuntu so much more difficult? I'm not saying Ubuntu is a doddle to install simply, that to say Windows is for the "non-computer literate" people is equally wide of the mark. From an equal non-installed start Windows can be just as problematic to install.

When you write about the issues you are having (which we are all very happy to try and help you resolve) please try to be a bit more constructive in what you say and a bit more accurate about the statements you make. Just because you had quite a few problems doesn't necessarily mean everyone will, and doesn't suddenly make it an impossible OS for new users. It is no more the case than the fact that my install was painless means everyone can install it!

:cool:

fuscia
July 30th, 2006, 04:06 PM
my neighbors had a computer with windows98 on it. one of their cousins put xp-pro on it and it ran incredibly slow, wouldn't boot half the time and they ended up with a bunch of viruses on it. then, one of my neighbor's students cleaned it up and installed debian on it and it now works just fine for them, even though my neighbor is hardly a geek (he's still baffled by the idea that one must install a program and not just download it, before it will work). xp is definitely not for everyone, either.

jonrkc
July 30th, 2006, 04:14 PM
I'll make it brief: sound problems.

I spent a solid hour getting sound to work in order to view a DVD the other day. I spent I don't know how long trying to get Web sound to work at all on a friend's computer--a friend who wants to see if he can switch from MS Windows(R) to Linux. He won't, at this rate.

I spent an hour this morning trying to get Web sound to work on my own computer.

This has happened with every new release of both distros I've used extensively--both very popular ones: Mandriva and Ubuntu.

I have installed Helix Player. I have installed Real Player 10. I have installed (reluctantly) mozilla-mplayer. I have fiddled with esd. I have fiddled with alsactl and with restarting alsa-utils over and over.

The result is always Real Player telling me that sound "may be" in use by another application.

I will never use MS Windows(R) again. But I have little hope of persuading anybody else to use Linux when something that works out of the box and unfailingly under Windows(R) won't work without enormous labor, if at all, under Linux.

I didn't make this as brief as I wished. But I expressed a small part of the frustration--and anger--that I feel about this issue. I would like to see the whole world embrace Linux or another *nix based system. But it simply cannot happen when conflicting standards and lack of cohesive planning--unfortunately a necessary situation in the open-source programming environment--makes a simple function something that the ordinary user cannot cope with.

It's so sad I don't have words for it.

(Oh, and by the way, Web sound still won't work. It did, sometimes, under Hoary.)

ajgreeny
July 30th, 2006, 04:29 PM
I'm surprised you've been having such problems and I think there must be a good reason for this as I've had no problems with sound on my install of dapper once I made sure I had all the win32 codecs and other restricted format requirements installed.

I didn't use it but give Easyubuntu a look-see as I suspect it may answer some of your problems with a few clicks.
http://easyubuntu.freecontrib.org/

mips
July 30th, 2006, 04:45 PM
Overall I find Linux easier to install and faster to install than XP. I love apt-get or whatever gui frontend you use to install apps.

I have to admit that somethings like WiFi and GfX drivers 'might' be a bit harder depending on your hardware. Some hardware you will never have luck with unfortunately but that is the manufaturers fault and not Linux.

The thing is the manufacturers don't even have to provide a driver. They just need to open up the specs of their hardware and possibly open source the code for their existing win/osx drivers and someone in the community will write the driver for them. Broadcom is one horrible company I can think of right now.

garba
July 30th, 2006, 04:47 PM
I have had Ubuntu on PC for a few weeks, spent a week trying to get my wireless card to work. Several days trying to figure out how to get write access to XP documents folder and have now spent nearly a week trying to get webcam to work, with all How-to's failing at some point...

I work and have other hobbies and commitments and I really don't have time for this much problems when I have a functioning OS in the shape of Windows. I did expect to spend some time installing and setting up Ubuntu, but this is now taking the p**s!

I had to buy a new Wireless card before I was able to use Wireless and I have a Logiech web cam so it's not like it's a not a big name...

I read that Ubuntu was the linux for the everyone, well so far, in my experience it just isn't. I am a competant windows users and I work in IT support, but I am completely new to Linux and have lost all patience with it, I really do not have time to spend days on end getting my hardware to work, which is a shame as I really wanted to get into this :(

I wouldn't dream of giving this to a non-computer literate person, my mum and dad for example can use windows fairly well, but I think would never be off the phone if I installed this on their PC.

I want delete the partition just yet, but right now im off to Windows.


alright, somebody please copy and paste the "missing hardware support is not linux's own fault" story from one of the zillion "linux sucks cause my $5 webcam doesn't work" posts out there

yaaarrrgg
July 30th, 2006, 04:51 PM
The second one is fairly useless, newbies wouldn't be playing with the CLI unless they want to learn it and in that case it's easy enough to pick up a book.

It's hard to get perpective on the problem if you used UNIX for years, but suppose you were required to remember the function of hundreds of new tools like: sd, ji, yt, rewm, lkj, ... I had the experience because I got a different job, as I switched from a Microsoft shop to a Unix shop.

The books would be much easier to learn, if the names of command line tools actually made some sense. I doubt this will ever happen though, since the people capable of fixing the problem eventually decide it's not a big problem (myself included) :)

It's kinda like the English language. English has arbitrary, terrible spelling rules, but no one wants to improve it after investing a monumental effort learning the existing system.

Stormy Eyes
July 30th, 2006, 04:52 PM
alright, somebody please copy and paste the "missing hardware support is not linux's own fault" story from one of the zillion "linux sucks cause my $5 webcam doesn't work" posts out there

Why bother? He won't listen to facts, because he's already made up his mind. What we have here is another Windows user who assumed that because his gear worked with Windows it would also work with Linux. If you don't do your research prior to installing, then expect no sympathy when things don't work because your gear isn't compatible.

BigDave708
July 30th, 2006, 04:58 PM
I had to buy a new Wireless card before I was able to use Wireless and I have a Logiech web cam so it's not like it's a not a big name...

Why do people always blame Ubuntu when they can't get a piece of hardware to work? Blame the manufacturer; it's their fault for not supporting Linux and eventually if (or more like when) we accumulate enough Linux users, their lack of support for Linux will come back to haunt them.


I am a competant windows users and I work in IT support

Pity you're not a competent speller! http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l282/bigdave708/duck.gif

FooAtari
July 30th, 2006, 05:35 PM
Your right, I'm a crap speller, there is a reason for it...

I regret posting this now...

As I have said twice since then, I was just annoyed in a bad mood and ranted before thinking about it. As I have since said I have kept Ubuntu on my system and I now have everything working, mostly. It just took a lot of effort! I never said it was the fault of Linux, just that for whatever reason it has some problems to iron out before it becomes mainstream, if it ever does.


If you don't do your research prior to installing, then expect no sympathy when things don't work because your gear isn't compatible.

I didn't expect any sympathy, I was just having a rant. And the webcam cost more than a fiver as well!

Some people here have some serious chips on their shoulders, I spoke out against Linux, so what? I put on ubuntu to find out what it was like, and to find out IF it would work, I still have XP installed so it wasn't a risk, didn't really need to research anything. I even used the Live version from DVD to try it first. You would be great for encouraging people to try it out...

I take it back, it's mostly working and I haven't been on Windows all day, will need to do so soon to go play GT Legends though ;)

So, one more time. I was hacked off and had a rant, came back on later and sorted out my problem and a few others, it all just seemed to come together lol. So far Ubuntu works great, despite a few teething issues.

So can we all just get along now? :)

Adamant1988
July 30th, 2006, 05:58 PM
I never said it was the fault of Linux, just that for whatever reason it has some problems to iron out before it becomes mainstream, if it ever does.

The words in the title "Linux has a long way to go" would imply that you believe this is a Linux problem. You attitude that "Linux should support everything I bought because I don't feel like buying something compatible" would imply that you believe this is a Linux problem.

sharkboy
July 30th, 2006, 06:41 PM
Still some posts saying nothing but bye, some freindly people around here ;) Seems a few people took this pretty personally...

http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=58017&highlight=anatomy+troll

23meg
July 30th, 2006, 06:44 PM
I read that Ubuntu was the linux for the everyone, Who said this in the first place?

win_zik
July 30th, 2006, 06:51 PM
Jesus people, give the poor guy a break.

He was frustrated and posted a rant.
Subsequently he explained what happened and that should be it, shouldn't it?

Anduu
July 30th, 2006, 07:08 PM
Jesus people, give the poor guy a break.

He was frustrated and posted a rant.
Subsequently he explained what happened and that should be it, shouldn't it?

Amen!

blastus
July 30th, 2006, 07:18 PM
FooAtari:
Do some research and get hardware that is compatible with Linux. Don't expect to learn everything overnight. Most of the knowledge and expertise you have in Windows is irrelevant on Linux and you must learn how to do things differently. If you really want to migrate to Linux you can, but you'll need some patience and persistence.

Take a few steps back and learn some of the basic concepts first like; the Linux file system standard, mounting/unmounting file systems, the command line and some basic commands, GRUB and configuring the boot process, drivers and kernel modules, apt package management system, multimedia support on Linux, desktop environments GNOME, KDE etc...


The words in the title "Linux has a long way to go" would imply that you believe this is a Linux problem. You attitude that "Linux should support everything I bought because I don't feel like buying something compatible" would imply that you believe this is a Linux problem.

It implies no such thing and even if it does, it is not exactly an understatement to say that Linux still has a long way to go regarding installing and configuring hardware.

cstudent
July 30th, 2006, 07:28 PM
I regret posting this now...

As I have said twice since then, I was just annoyed in a bad mood and ranted before thinking about it. As I have since said I have kept Ubuntu on my system and I now have everything working, mostly. It just took a lot of effort! I never said it was the fault of Linux, just that for whatever reason it has some problems to iron out before it becomes mainstream, if it ever does.



Don't feel bad. I had over 20 years experience in Windows before trying Linux. The first few weeks I was ready to throw up my hands and quit. But I have this thing about not being a quitter and so I kept on trying. I've been using Linux for about 2 years now and I've become quite comfortable with it. I believe when I first started using Windows I had a lot of things to learn then too, but I learned them and became comfortable with using it. I also believe that if I had switched from Windows to OSX I would had to have learned a lot of stuff too. They are different operating systems and therefore do not work the same. Hardware problems are an issue with Linux and I hope that this will change more and more in the future. Personally, I would like to see someone like Mark Shuttleworth get into the business of not only developing Ubuntu, but also get into the hardware business. Make some printers and modems, etc that work with Ubuntu and not have to rely on third-party manufactures to support Ubuntu with drivers. I'm sure some third-party companies like Nvidia and HP would probably be willing to come on board with product right away.

But, anyway, hang in there. Keep trying. Make a dual boot system and keep Windows around for what you need to do. My main desktop is still set up as dual boot although I very seldom boot into the Windows drive. You eventually get through the rough part and then I'm sure you'll start to like Linux as much as the rest of us.


cstudent

BigDave708
July 30th, 2006, 07:32 PM
As I have said twice since then, I was just annoyed in a bad mood and ranted before thinking about it.

We all have a brainfart every once in a while.


Some people here have some serious chips on their shoulders, I spoke out against Linux, so what?

People only got annoyed because you spoke out against Linux under the illusion that it was Linux's fault, when actually it was because you didn't spend enough time trying to even sort out the problem . . . you told us that you had been using Ubuntu for a few weeks and couldn't get anything to work, but the second you got a lot of pressure in this thread, you managed to sort the problem out.


So can we all just get along now? :)

If we must :D . . .

egon spengler
July 30th, 2006, 10:40 PM
Still some posts saying nothing but bye, some freindly people around here ;) Seems a few people took this pretty personally...

Realistically, what is it that you expect from people? You think for some reason people might beg you to please not give up on ubuntu?

23meg
July 30th, 2006, 10:44 PM
Realistically, what is it that you expect from people? You think for some reason people might beg you to please not give up on ubuntu?
Right, when you start a thread to say "bye", you should expect "bye" in return, it sounds perfectly logical to me.

(Not meant for this particular case, but) a simple "goodbye" is the best answer to give to people who don't ask for help and just bash Ubuntu / Linux on their way out. I've also seen many people who started very polite threads saying "bye" but had their problems solved on those very threads they started to say "bye", and decided to stay. I've seen this happen many times.

newagelink
July 30th, 2006, 11:19 PM
I have had Ubuntu on PC for a few weeks, spent a week trying to get my wireless card to work. Several days trying to figure out how to get write access to XP documents folder and have now spent nearly a week trying to get webcam to work, with all How-to's failing at some point...

I work and have other hobbies and commitments and I really don't have time for this much problems when I have a functioning OS in the shape of Windows. I did expect to spend some time installing and setting up Ubuntu, but this is now taking the p**s!I sympathize with you, sir. Mandrivalinux was just as miserable an experience for me, and with school creeping up on me I had to give it up and use Windows the rest of the semester.

Now I'm not worrying about it so much. With Ubuntu I still can't use iTunes or IE or my Logitech webcam, or write to my Windows NTFS partition, but I'm not going to mess with it -- I'll just restart in Windows when I want to use them, and if I have free time, then I'll try to work with Linux, read about it, try to get it working ...

It is very frustrating, and I'm surprised to see so many negative responses.

egon spengler
July 30th, 2006, 11:22 PM
Aaah, this is all just a joke post. I know that you can't seriously mean to suggest people should not be allowed to maintain a distro because it may inconvenience kornelix. I hope there's an appropriate forum for you to vent on for the day you venture down to your local library and discover just how many books there are to baffle you. And you'll be saddened to learn that people write new books every day.

slushy77
July 30th, 2006, 11:25 PM
I've been using linux in various forms for a number of years, and I would say that it has come a long way already. Out of the box installation, usb support, automatic booting to a desktop environment without having to muck around with run levels and configs, and decent documentation are all features that weren't available in earlier versions of linux.
Hardware issues can usually be solved by doing some research, as there are bound to be people who have encountered similar problems and published their solutions.
As for the problems with windows partitions, they're mounted read only by default so as valuable data isn't trashed

Bezmotivnik
July 30th, 2006, 11:26 PM
Blame yourself for buying a unsupported crap wireless card....

There effectively is no such thing as a Linux supported wireless card, if you intend to use the prevailing, current wireless features and expect to be able to do so painlessly on multiple networks.

Linux wireless is absolutely dismal, and it's not just Ubuntu, nor is it just one card.

Never mind that there are factory Linux drivers for these devices which support the features you want (WPA2, AES etc.), they still don't easily work in Linux with modern features because they haven't been integrated into any worthwhile front end. Maybe the GTK project will fix that, but at the moment Linux wireless support is about three years behind XP in terms of transparently functioning with the features and facility a user has a right to expect in 2006.

Beyond the glaring problems with wireless, I don't think that anyone here would dispute the fact that in general, setting up desktop Linux is relatively labor-intensive and has a steep learning curve when compared to XP.

Lord Illidan
July 30th, 2006, 11:31 PM
Aaah, this is all just a joke post. I know that you can't seriously mean to suggest people should not be allowed to maintain a distro because it may inconvenience kornelix. I hope there's an appropriate forum for you to vent on for the day you venture down to your local library and discover just how many books there are to baffle you. And you'll be saddened to learn that people write new books every day.

LOL!!!

Lord Illidan
July 30th, 2006, 11:41 PM
There effectively is no such thing as a Linux supported wireless card, if you intend to use the prevailing, current wireless features and expect to be able to do so painlessly on multiple networks.

Linux wireless is absolutely dismal, and it's not just Ubuntu, nor is it just one card.

Never mind that there are factory Linux drivers for these devices which support the features you want (WPA2, AES etc.), they still don't easily work in Linux with modern features because they haven't been integrated into any worthwhile front end. Maybe the GTK project will fix that, but at the moment Linux wireless support is about three years behind XP in terms of transparently functioning with the features and facility a user has a right to expect in 2006.

Beyond the glaring problems with wireless, I don't think that anyone here would dispute the fact that in general, setting up desktop Linux is relatively labor-intensive and has a steep learning curve when compared to XP.

I agree wth you here. By far the main problem on linux forums are the wireless drivers or lack of them.

BigDave708
July 30th, 2006, 11:41 PM
a simple "goodbye" is the best answer to give to people who don't ask for help and just bash Ubuntu / Linux on their way out

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l282/bigdave708/tick.gif

My personal favorite is "don't let the door hit you on the way out", though :mrgreen:

BigDave708
July 30th, 2006, 11:45 PM
There effectively is no such thing as a Linux supported wireless card, if you intend to use the prevailing, current wireless features and expect to be able to do so painlessly on multiple networks.

Linux wireless is absolutely dismal, and it's not just Ubuntu, nor is it just one card.

Never mind that there are factory Linux drivers for these devices which support the features you want (WPA2, AES etc.), they still don't easily work in Linux with modern features because they haven't been integrated into any worthwhile front end. Maybe the GTK project will fix that, but at the moment Linux wireless support is about three years behind XP in terms of transparently functioning with the features and facility a user has a right to expect in 2006.

Beyond the glaring problems with wireless, I don't think that anyone here would dispute the fact that in general, setting up desktop Linux is relatively labor-intensive and has a steep learning curve when compared to XP.


I agree wth you here. By far the main problem on linux forums are the wireless drivers or lack of them.

I'm still amazed that I was able to get my wireless card working on my laptop without even having to start a thread here :rolleyes: . . .

Lord Illidan
July 30th, 2006, 11:47 PM
I'm still amazed that I was able to get my wireless card working on my laptop without even having to start a thread here :rolleyes: . . .

It's almost like winning the lottery, isn't it?

The day when linux will rule the desktop is when we are no longer amazed when things just work.

prizrak
July 30th, 2006, 11:48 PM
It's hard to get perpective on the problem if you used UNIX for years, but suppose you were required to remember the function of hundreds of new tools like: sd, ji, yt, rewm, lkj, ... I had the experience because I got a different job, as I switched from a Microsoft shop to a Unix shop.

The books would be much easier to learn, if the names of command line tools actually made some sense. I doubt this will ever happen though, since the people capable of fixing the problem eventually decide it's not a big problem (myself included) :)

It's kinda like the English language. English has arbitrary, terrible spelling rules, but no one wants to improve it after investing a monumental effort learning the existing system.

HAHA YES I very much agree with you on the English part (and sorta CLI part) I had to learn English as a second language and I started pretty early so had little problem but I do have the following conversation with my mom (who has alot more trouble than me).
Her: How do you spell <insert word here>?
Me: Like this <lengthy explanation>.
Her: Why?
Me: No clue that's how they do it :)

scxtt
July 30th, 2006, 11:50 PM
honestly, what "just works" in windows? -- not much ... i have to install drivers for audio and video (generally from a CD {that i PAID for as part of the purchase price of the hardware} or d/l them from the net) - if i had wireless (no need) i'm sure i'd need a disk for that as well ... and if i remember correctly, when i installed XP on a friends laptop she didn't have wireless till i used the D-LINK disk that came w/ the PCMCIA card (older IBM thinkpad)...

the ONLY reason things appear to "just work" in windows is cause you pay for them to work -- plain and simple ...

Lord Illidan
July 31st, 2006, 12:06 AM
honestly, what "just works" in windows? -- not much ... i have to install drivers for audio and video (generally from a CD {that i PAID for as part of the purchase price of the hardware} or d/l them from the net) - if i had wireless (no need) i'm sure i'd need a disk for that as well ... and if i remember correctly, when i installed XP on a friends laptop she didn't have wireless till i used the D-LINK disk that came w/ the PCMCIA card (older IBM thinkpad)...

the ONLY reason things appear to "just work" in windows is cause you pay for them to work -- plain and simple ...

Good point.

But it's easier to pop in a cd, click a file and have the drivers installed for you, than trawl through hundreds of howtos, trying to get everything working.

scxtt
July 31st, 2006, 12:13 AM
right, but i'm not talking about how it's easier, i'm talking about why it's easier ... because H/W vendors see $$$ in having immediate driver access to a pay-to-play OS like windows ... i'm sure if any linux OS devs wanted to pay H/W vendors to write drivers for their OS, we'd see Linux drivers packaged w/ that OS - and almost assuredly w/ a pricetag as well ...

as i said to begin w/ -- blame capitalism if you want to blame any{one/thing} ...

FooAtari
July 31st, 2006, 12:41 AM
Is this thread still going... ok



The words in the title "Linux has a long way to go" would imply that you believe this is a Linux problem. You attitude that "Linux should support everything I bought because I don't feel like buying something compatible" would imply that you believe this is a Linux problem.

It was just a general comment, that before linux can be used by anyone and everyone it has long way to go, wether it be due to lack of support, or improvements to linux itself. It was a general statement.

And I bought the hardware before trying linux, as I have said already...

@Sharkboy I have already posted here requesting assistance several times and had most of hardware working. I wasn't saying linux is totally useless and noboddy should use it, i'll say it again, I was just letting of steam and having a rant


Jesus people, give the poor guy a break.

He was frustrated and posted a rant.
Subsequently he explained what happened and that should be it, shouldn't it?

Thanks! :D


Do some research and get hardware that is compatible with Linux.

Ho hum :) See above. As for basic concepts, I covered some Unix in college, so I do know the basic and a few commands lol


But, anyway, hang in there. Keep trying. Make a dual boot system and keep Windows around for what you need to do. My main desktop is still set up as dual boot although I very seldom boot into the Windows drive. You eventually get through the rough part and then I'm sure you'll start to like Linux as much as the rest of us.

System has been dual boot since putting Ubuntu on :) I never actually said I didn't like Linux. I actually quite like the GUI and the concept I was just annoyed that my webcam didnt work, but this was after great difficulty getting the wireless card to work and installing video card drivers.


you told us that you had been using Ubuntu for a few weeks and couldn't get anything to work, but the second you got a lot of pressure in this thread, you managed to sort the problem out.

I said in the first post that I wasnt giving up totally on Linux, I didnt fix it because of pressure in this thread, I fixed it because I hate when something beats me :mad:


Right, when you start a thread to say "bye"

I didnt say bye! When I said I was going back to Windows, I simply meant I was going to reboot the PC and do what I needed to in Windows...

Thanks newagelink :)



the ONLY reason things appear to "just work" in windows is cause you pay for them to work -- plain and simple ...

I pay the same amount for my hardware weather I use it under Windows or Linux... I know I know this is the hardware vendors fault.


I think that covers everything. Although I seem to be repeating myself a bit, I guess people are just going to hate on me straight away for having a rant, oh well, sorry.

While I seem to be getting a lot of attention here, how can I remove drivers for a webcam, any way of going back to the old ones that I think were installed with Ubuntu?

scxtt
July 31st, 2006, 12:46 AM
FooAtari --

i'm not really speaking to you directly, i can understand your rant - it happens :p ...

speaking to you directly, tho - you pay more only cause of the windows aspect - i'm sure it's very rare to have unix/linux drivers packaged on a CD, but in those cases things are a bit more leveled ...

in the end, H/W vendors need to realize that stable, usable Unix/Linux drivers can actually sell more hardware ...

BigDave708
July 31st, 2006, 12:58 AM
I said in the first post that I wasnt giving up totally on Linux, I didnt fix it because of pressure in this thread, I fixed it because I hate when something beats me :mad:

You never said that bit first time round . . .

koshari
July 31st, 2006, 01:12 AM
"Linux has a long way to go..."

you betcha it has a long way to go, ind iam fairly confident it will keep progressing in that direction rapidly.

IMHO the constant comparisons to windows (and rightly so as they are the market leader) quite often show that in many areas linux is miles ahead.

While we are talking about hardware support mainly in this post, take a minute to google the names of "andrew tridgell", "chris pascoe", "Andrew Barbaccia" and even "tseliot" of this forum for a few of many names that come to mind, All these people are constantly contributing their time, knowledge and findings so as there are easier paths for others to follow,

i wonder how many of the staff at microsoft are that generous?

hell i couldnt even get any support of MS to get there broken NetDDE application to talk to our PLC server and we pay a very substatual fee to them for licencing and "support"!.

No nothing is perfect but with the attitude of a lot of the people i have came across in my dealings with linux it goes give me a warm inner feeling that not everyone has sold out.

23meg
July 31st, 2006, 01:27 AM
I didnt say bye! When I said I was going back to Windows, I simply meant I was going to reboot the PC and do what I needed to in Windows...Your thread title and the tone of your post storngly suggest otherwise. Anyway, it's been a while since this thread served its purpose. Shall we all stop posting please?

PatrickMay16
July 31st, 2006, 01:32 AM
I agree. I'm lucky to have a soundcard with hardware mixing, but for most other soundcards a lot of the time you'll experience annoying junk like this. MacOS and Windows have had good software sound mixing for at least a decade. Why not linux?

23meg
July 31st, 2006, 01:38 AM
MacOS and Windows have had good software sound mixing for at least a decade. Why not linux?Because of manufacturers who don't care enough about Linux users to provide open specs or drivers, period. Things you can do:

- Buy compatible hardware

- Get organized with others to put pressure on manufacturers to provide Linux support

- Donate money to developers who go to great pains to make open source drivers for hardware without open specs when they're under no obligation to do so

- Spend years learning computer science, mathematics and programming and reach a skill level where you can write a driver or help other programmers write one

- Quit using Linux

Simple as that, no other solutions.

PatrickMay16
July 31st, 2006, 01:43 AM
Because of manufacturers who don't care enough about Linux users to provide open specs or drivers, period. Things you can do:

- Buy compatible hardware

- Get organized with others to put pressure on manufacturers to provide Linux support

- Donate money to developers who go to great pains to make open source drivers for hardware without open specs when they're under no obligation to do so

- Spend years learning computer science, mathematics and programming and reach a skill level where you can write a driver or help other programmers write one

- Quit using Linux

Simple as that, no other solutions.

Nonono, that's not the problem in this case. The problem here is if you have a sound card which does not do hardware mixing, you're likely at some point to be annoyed by a "device or resource busy" error when you try to use the soundcard with some application; something which you are MUCH less likely to experience on Windows or MacOS, if at all.

23meg
July 31st, 2006, 02:23 AM
when you try to use the soundcard with some applicationYou mean more than one application? There are workarounds for that which you can find with a forum search. Devices without hardware mixing (such as mine, an M-Audio Quattro, with which I haven't had such a problem) need ALSA enabled software and an appropriate ALSA config to rely on ALSA software mixing. If manufacturers of cheap consumer cards without hardware mixing cared enough and actually knew what ALSA was, it would be simple for them to release a two kilobyte ALSA config file along with drivers to make the card work as supposed. The problem is that they don't, and users and developers need to figure things out on their own. The good thing is, they usually do.

jonrkc: Did you post a thread describing your problem? If so, please post a link to it so that others who read your problem only on this thread can help you in the thread you opened before.

kopinux
July 31st, 2006, 02:58 AM
you can try MEPIS.

3rdalbum
July 31st, 2006, 03:11 AM
All operating systems have their shortcomings... I went from Ubuntu-Mac dual-boot to Ubuntu-Windows dual-boot, and the problems I had with Windows were so frustrating! And I still haven't got it all licked, either, despite the computer being preloaded with Windows.

Webcam and wireless support are problematic on Linux due to lack of drivers. Go lobby someone about it.

You wouldn't give someone a computer with unconfigured Linux any more than you'd give someone a computer with unconfigured Windows.

Ubuntu never claimed to be for everyone, so don't worry that you might be subnormal or anything.

adamkane
July 31st, 2006, 03:22 AM
Half-working OS installations isn't a problem specific to Ubuntu. The average Windows user doesn't have everything installed either.

kornelix
July 31st, 2006, 05:15 AM
Childish. You should address the problem instead of making personal attacks.

aysiu
July 31st, 2006, 05:37 AM
While we are talking about hardware support mainly in this post, take a minute to google the names of "andrew tridgell", "chris pascoe", "Andrew Barbaccia" and even "tseliot" of this forum for a few of many names that come to mind, All these people are constantly contributing their time, knowledge and findings so as there are easier paths for others to follow,

i wonder how many of the staff at microsoft are that generous? By the way, all the staff and members of these forums are volunteers, not employed by Canonical or Ubuntu.


Is this thread still going... ok Any thread that appears to insult Linux or say it's somehow deficient in a way that Windows isn't will keep going and going.

If you don't believe me, check out this list (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=1276564) (to which I've added the current thread).

adamkane
July 31st, 2006, 06:22 AM
Linux is in a wonderful state of choas.

The only reason for so many distros is that many people need a specific in-house solution, but they are also willing to share their work with everyone else.

Many distros have hundreds of thousands of users. Most only have a few users, because those few users need a specific distro for their purposes.

RAV TUX
July 31st, 2006, 06:38 AM
Sounds like a good case for Control, agent 99.

adamkane
July 31st, 2006, 06:48 AM
Generation gap alert!:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Get_Smart

sharkboy
July 31st, 2006, 08:54 AM
I think that covers everything. Although I seem to be repeating myself a bit, I guess people are just going to hate on me straight away for having a rant, oh well, sorry.

While I seem to be getting a lot of attention here, how can I remove drivers for a webcam, any way of going back to the old ones that I think were installed with Ubuntu?

I think the hardest part for you to learn about GNU/Linux won't be the technical aspects but the ideological ones. You could start with this page:

http://wiki.debian.org/WhyDebian

To me, and I suspect to many others, your initial post was very typical: a self proclaimed computer (windows) expert swears he gave GNU/Linux his best shot and found it lacking. This is a very common and hurtful type of FUD. And it needs to be fought and not just buried, because you're a windows support person and will talk to a lot of potential GNU/Linux users. You need to *really* know that you've been a bad, bad boy, so that you don't do it again :). While you get bashed here, any technical problem you might have will most likely be solved. I don't own a webcam and so I can't help you there.

Drivers can always be removed. Do 'man dpkg' and 'man apt-get'. If you compiled the drivers into your kernel, the worst thing that can happen is that you have to recompile/reinstall your kernel. Do 'man make-kpkg'.

FooAtari
July 31st, 2006, 09:05 AM
You never said that bit first time round . . .

Yeah I did... "I want (oops, wont) delete the partition just yet, but right now im off to Windows."


Your thread title and the tone of your post storngly suggest otherwise.

It suggested I was annoyed and was going back into windows for a while, or it was meant to anyway. Perhaps you jumped on it a bit to quickly as being a total hate post. I would have thought the part that I wasnt going to delete linux showed I hadnt given up on it.


To me, and I suspect to many others, your initial post was very typical: a self proclaimed computer (windows) expert swears he gave GNU/Linux his best shot and found it lacking. This is a very common and hurtful type of FUD. And it needs to be fought and not just buried, because you're a windows support person and will talk to a lot of potential GNU/Linux users. You need to *really* know that you've been a bad, bad boy, so that you don't do it again . While you get bashed here, any technical problem you might have will most likely be solved. I don't own a webcam and so I can't help you there.

Who said expert? :) And I didnt say I had given it my best shop, I had done as much as I was prepared to at that point in time, because I was annoyed. And that's it really. I was just p***ed off and let my fingers run riot.

I'll check that link, and that thread, aysiu.

FooAtari
July 31st, 2006, 11:27 AM
@aysiu

I read some of that thread you linked to, and some of the threads it in turn linked to. And I am, to be honest, quite ashamed...

I never had myself down as that sort of person, I know Linux is not Windows, I know I have to learn new things and basically go back to basics. Yet this seemed to go out the window when I came across a few problems because I become quickly annoyed and frustrated that I couldnt do something I can do in windows with my eyes closed.

The issue is this, it took several months/years before I became a competant user, but when I first started using Windows, I was also new to PC's so didnt know what I know now, so there were no issues when I couldnt do things, if that makes sense. I didn't know then the capabilties of a PC, I was happy when I bought it, it worked for games and that's all I wanted when I was 14. It wasnt until things started go wrong and I looked into upgrading that I slowly started to learn.

But I now know how to do many things, and it's frustrating when I can't apply my current knowledge to solve problems, it took a long time to become a competant (advanced?) Windows user, and it's hard to accept that I can turn on a PC with a Linux OS and have little clue how to use it!

I guess to most people, if they cant use their current knowledge and they have problems in Linux, they then think Windows works fine, why should I learn this when I can already do everything in Windows and know my way around it? Which is a fair point I guess.

For me, it's so that I dont have to use Windows, it has a monopoly, and monoplys are not healthy, also it's more secure and FREE.

When thinking about this, something else also occured to me. Recently my Granda bought a PC, and it was a hard 6 months or so teaching him how to do the most basic things, and it occured to me what a dautining task it would be to teach him everything I know, there is so much when you actually think about it. Things that now seem simple and second nature are very difficult for a complete Novice to understand and remember, just making him understand simple concepts was difficult.

Now if I was good enough with Linux, and picked up an easy to use distro I could have taught my granda how to do the basic things, Internet, email, photos etc etc, and it would have been no more easy or difficult for him than it was to learn Windows.

It's not Linux that is hard to use, it is because people are brought up with Windows in schools, in the office or with the PC they bought and they get into a way of doing things and get habbits, it's hard to let them go, also it's so well supported over the phone, on web sites and on the CD's provided my manufacturers. Especially for an advanced user, to go from doing everything to nothing and having to learn so much so quickly (it was a gradual process when I first got a PC and windows) to get to where you are with Windows it is very annoying and so easy to blame someone/something else and bin the whole idea, going back to the comfort Windows.

It's not the fault of Linux or the user to an extent, it's the way things are in the computing world at the moment. Windows rules all and for most people their first experience of computing is with Windows, and you learn how to use that, and it's only after you have developed a real interest for computing that you hear about this thing called Linux, but for many people it's already to late ;)

richbarna
July 31st, 2006, 11:53 AM
[QUOTE]There effectively is no such thing as a Linux supported wireless card, if you intend to use the prevailing, current wireless features and expect to be able to do so painlessly on multiple networks.

Linux wireless is absolutely dismal, and it's not just Ubuntu, nor is it just one card.

Never mind that there are factory Linux drivers for these devices which support the features you want (WPA2, AES etc.), they still don't easily work in Linux with modern features because they haven't been integrated into any worthwhile front end. Maybe the GTK project will fix that, but at the moment Linux wireless support is about three years behind XP in terms of transparently functioning with the features and facility a user has a right to expect in 2006.

True, but MadWifi (http://madwifi.org/wiki/Compatibility) is helping this problem, and Ndiswrapper (http://ndiswrapper.sourceforge.net/mediawiki/index.php/List#List_.28alphabetically.29).


Beyond the glaring problems with wireless, I don't think that anyone here would dispute the fact that in general, setting up desktop Linux is relatively labor-intensive and has a steep learning curve when compared to XP.

That depends on the user, the hardware and if people are prepared to readup first.
http://www.linuxcompatible.org/
http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntu/index.php

Everu OS has it's problems, it's just that after a long time of using the same OS we forget the bad stuff.

mostwanted
July 31st, 2006, 12:30 PM
It's not the fault of Linux or the user to an extent, it's the way things are in the computing world at the moment. Windows rules all and for most people their first experience of computing is with Windows, and you learn how to use that, and it's only after you have developed a real interest for computing that you hear about this thing called Linux, but for many people it's already to late ;)

That is one hell of a great turn-around you've done during this topic, and now you're even reflecting on the whole thing and writing great opinion pieces like you were aysiu or something, hehe :)

My applauses.

BigDave708
July 31st, 2006, 01:39 PM
Yeah I did... "I want (oops, wont) delete the partition just yet, but right now im off to Windows."

But you did say this:


I work and have other hobbies and commitments and I really don't have time for this much problems when I have a functioning OS in the shape of Windows. I did expect to spend some time installing and setting up Ubuntu, but this is now taking the p**s!

And this:


I think i give up - Linux has a long way to go...

That implies that you aren't coming back any time soon. To argue that it doesn't is just semantics . . .

RawMustard
July 31st, 2006, 01:40 PM
@FooAtari

Ignore the zealots, the Linux community is rife with them, but then so is the windows community - err wait there is no windows community :P

Anyway, give Linux more than a fair chance and you'll wonder why you ever used windows, it's far from perfect and a lot in it sucks major butt, but then it's like your own pad, you can do what you like with it and when you really get to know it, you'll just smile and laugh at all the nonsense posted on this and similar boards :)

FooAtari
July 31st, 2006, 02:14 PM
That implies that you aren't coming back any time soon. To argue that it doesn't is just semantics . . .

Fair enough, I can't really argue. I didn't mean that, like I have said, was just annoyed at the time of posting. And while the thought did cross my mind at that point I had every intention in going back to it for the most part.


That is one hell of a great turn-around you've done during this topic, and now you're even reflecting on the whole thing and writing great opinion pieces like you were aysiu or something, hehe

My applauses.

Thank aysiu for that, the thread he linked to made me realise a few things :) I have seen the error of my ways. Linux still isn't for everyone, but problems with lack of support from hardware vendors etc is not the fualt of linux, and if you really want to use it, like most things you need to put some effort into learning it :) It's not windows, so it does thing differently, as does every OS. I just needed to be reminded of that lol.

@RawMustard. Being an avid gamer that regular posts on related forums I'm all to used to fanboys and zealots ;)

Just for the record, my original post was not a pro-windows, was never meant to be, nor an anti-linux post. Just a post of what I thought, at that exact moment, of the problems linux had. Even though a couple of those problems still exist, it is not the fault of the linux community!

And I have found this forum to be very helpful for the most part when getting Ubuntu going :D

kornelix
July 31st, 2006, 02:43 PM
Linux is in a wonderful state of choas.
...
I guess you and many other technical wizards like it this way. The world as a whole will continue to run away from this chaos, and prefer (highly standardized) Windows instead, no matter how bad it is.

s_h_a_d_o_w_s
July 31st, 2006, 06:11 PM
Patience is required. But seriously, why must you tell us you're leaving? If you have a problem, explain it and we can help. that's why we're here. And ubuntu is free, you can't really complain.

jonrkc
July 31st, 2006, 06:25 PM
jonrkc: Did you post a thread describing your problem? If so, please post a link to it so that others who read your problem only on this thread can help you in the thread you opened before.
23meg, no; I deliberately didn't post a thread about the problem because there are hundreds--actually thousands--of threads on forums such as this and others about the same problem, and there's no point in my posting yet another.

I am interested in the suggestion about a sound card that does hardware mixing. I may invest in one. I am tired to death of messing with ALSA, esd, ARTSD, OSS, and who knows what else just to get a simple function to work.

I do understand about the money problem; it's part of why I say Linux can never--not may never, not might never, but CAN never--become popular as a replacement for MS Windows.

As for the suggestion to quit using Linux, I would, except that under no circumstances will I go back to MS Windows; I will junk my computer first. This is no exaggeration. It's a vow I made in January 2003 and I'm pretty good about sticking to vows. I will have nothing voluntarily to do with Microsoft.

I MIGHT go to Apple if I were wealthy enough. But that's another corporation. I am anti-corporation--at least as corporations exist in this insane world today. The "freedom" meaning of Open Source--and Linux--is dear to my heart. That's why I'm genuinely pained to see how difficult it is for ordinary folks to change to Linux, or any other *nix variant.

It's like wishing for universal peace. It just ain't going to happen.

And that's a crying shame. It also says a lot about human nature.

Thanks for the good posts, everybody. I was afraid to look here till this morning, for fear of what I'd find. You've been merciful--and helpful. And reasonable. That is the spirit of Ubuntu forums.

Two quick edits: 1. Curious if the live CD would furnish sound, I loaded it a few minutes ago and yes, I had sound without any fiddling. I looked at the processes open: one is "soundcore." There is NO alsa-utils, NO esd running from the live CD. This seems very curious to me. Why does the desktop installation have trouble that the live CD of the same distro doesn't?

2. If anybody can recommend a good moderately priced soundcard with hardware mixing, please send me a private message about it. I'd really appreciate it. I don't want to suggest naming them here, as it might look like advertising, and it's also just a bit off-topic. :)

FooAtari
July 31st, 2006, 07:10 PM
Sorry, but do people actually read the entire thread before posting? ;)

aysiu
July 31st, 2006, 07:29 PM
Sorry, but do people actually read the entire thread before posting? ;)
In an 8-page thread--I'd say no.

egon spengler
July 31st, 2006, 08:13 PM
So before trying ubuntu you carefully weighed the pros and cons of each distro? Of course you didn't, you probably considered 3-5 distros, 10 at the most. There already is a self selecting top 20-30 distros which are popular and widely used. Then of that 20-30 not all are intended to be used by those new to Linux (gentoo, arch and it's derivatives, slackware and it's derivatives) and so there's probaby 10-20 distros likely to get recommended to a new user. Keep talking about this "problem" of 500 distros all that you like but you probably can't name 50 off the head. It's a complete non issue.

Here's a question for you kornelix, should the people that don't want to contribute to a big distro like debian (plus of course don't forget debian has high standards, they may not be up to par to make the debian team) not be allowed to make their own distro if they so wish?

aysiu
July 31st, 2006, 08:21 PM
These two links should take care of any confusion about which distros to try and narrow it down for you:
http://www.zegeniestudios.net/ldc/
http://distrowatch.com/

mafitzpatrick
July 31st, 2006, 08:26 PM
Aaah, this is all just a joke post. I know that you can't seriously mean to suggest people should not be allowed to maintain a distro because it may inconvenience kornelix. I hope there's an appropriate forum for you to vent on for the day you venture down to your local library and discover just how many books there are to baffle you. And you'll be saddened to learn that people write new books every day.

That comparison is funny but incorrect. You are comparing a change in content with a change in design. The concern over wasted resources is when new distributions "reinvent the wheel" (to use another analogy) each time despite working examples being readily available. Sometimes this appears to be solely for the sake of being different.

The equivalent in book-land would be for writers (or publishers) to spend time repeatedly reinventing the method they use to distribute the media. Backwards text, books made of steel, or indeed 5hours spent designing exactly what we have now may satisfy the need to originality. Unfortunately it is not likely to sell, be useful, or indeed end up in any libraries.

Well-defined experimentation is a valuable thing. Poorly defined it can be a terrible waste of time. Each to their own. I'd rather have a smaller number of more competent distributions/developments than a million pieces of tat.

aysiu
July 31st, 2006, 08:30 PM
An equal amount of staffing/quality of programming doesn't go into every single distro, and all distros do not suit the same needs. And people do actually share code, believe it or not. The "wheel" isn't reinvented every time a new distro is created.

mafitzpatrick
July 31st, 2006, 08:51 PM
An equal amount of staffing/quality of programming doesn't go into every single distro, and all distros do not suit the same needs. And people do actually share code, believe it or not. The "wheel" isn't reinvented every time a new distro is created.

It's alright, I realise that a lot of distributions are actually just undertaking repackaging and testing work. There are also always going to be niche areas where new distributions are needed and I think this is "a good thing"TM In fact I firmly believe that one of the strengths of Linux is this can get into everywhere attitude.

My concerns with weaknesses are mostly in the desktop & application area. When I first got started with Linux I had some difficulty tracking down help (Redhat help did not equal SuSE help for example). Certainly as far as code recycling and interoperability are concerned there are some problems, but that's already been addressed way up the thread & it seems to be getting better. Ubuntu has gone a long way to improving on this situation of course.

egon spengler
August 1st, 2006, 12:33 PM
That comparison is funny but incorrect. You are comparing a change in content with a change in design. The concern over wasted resources is when new distributions "reinvent the wheel" (to use another analogy) each time despite working examples being readily available. Sometimes this appears to be solely for the sake of being different.

The equivalent in book-land would be for writers (or publishers) to spend time repeatedly reinventing the method they use to distribute the media. Backwards text, books made of steel, or indeed 5hours spent designing exactly what we have now may satisfy the need to originality. Unfortunately it is not likely to sell, be useful, or indeed end up in any libraries.

Not really, a common complaint (perhaps even voiced in this thread, I can't be bothered to check) is "there are too many text editors". This surfeit of text editors is on occasion held up as symptomatic of people needlessly reinventing the wheel "You can already write text in gedit, why waste time developing magnum?".

If it can be said that there are too many text editors then it can also be said that there are too many crime novels, "Pelecanos already wrote a book about crime, why waste time developing layercake?". We have our definitive text editor/crime novel and everyone else should stop wasting their time re-creating something that already exists

The concern over wasted resources is when new distributions "reinvent the wheel" (to use another analogy) each time despite working examples being readily available. Sometimes this appears to be solely for the sake of being different.

Like, say, making a new sci fi film when people who want to watch films about sci-fi could just go watch Blade Runner?

HanZo
August 1st, 2006, 01:09 PM
chaos is a very positive thing... it creates space for creativity... and there is some creativity in linux, that on the other hand is what makes it chaotic, it's a circular system.
Nontheless, chaos is best when it is used in a controlled, aimed way... you have to surf the waves of chaos on let yourself be washed away by it... right now the linux world has a lot of uncontrolled chaos, which is not good, or at least not optimal. Having 500 distros, 20 similar programs to do a task but not one that's really working... that's what is not good about chaos.
How many time have you been searching for an app, let's say an ftp client... how many are there that really work, 1... none? what if all those people out there coding ftp clients would join in, not one... but maybe 5 projects (instead of 20) and make some apps that work, with all the features a program like that needs to have!

I don't like KDE but I think it's ok to have the choice between 2 different desktops... I wish Windows had that choice. There are basically 4 full desktop environments at them moment KDE, Gnome, XFCF and Enlightment (or did I miss something) plus several windowmanagers... but I would not count them. In my opinion that has a sense... because they are focused on different targets, but it's 4 not 20... that's the point. the problem is having 20 distros that are more or less the same, why? what for?

Personally I think the article had a point. There should be something like 20 distros, each focusing on a precise target and business model. What the market needs is a desktop distro for home use (ubuntu?), an enterpise distro for med to large enterprises (novell?), a distro for the server market, and then some specialized distros: for making music (like studio to go), for graphics, for science, for schools and so on. there may be of course more than one distro for every field... since competition surely is important.

If you think in the www (the wild windows world) there is just one solution for everything basically you just have a server version and a desktop one. the desktop one has a cheaper stripped down edition... but that's another pair of shoes, so basically you always end up having an os that's not made for your needs... it's a general purpose thing... it's like having to wear a uniform, like having one pair of shoes to dance ballet and to work in a mine...

so... IMHO the best solution would lie, as often, right in the middle...

mafitzpatrick
August 1st, 2006, 04:18 PM
Not really, a common complaint (perhaps even voiced in this thread, I can't be bothered to check) is "there are too many text editors". This surfeit of text editors is on occasion held up as symptomatic of people needlessly reinventing the wheel "You can already write text in gedit, why waste time developing magnum?".

That argument holds fine: if there is no sharing of code. Can there really be that many ways of storing text internally in a program and manipulating it? That many new valuable programming developments which text editing needs to benefit from? No. Often what is being developed is a new UI for a new job. Of course, if those text editors still exist they are doing something right.

Unfortunately what you end up with is lots of text editors which do some things you want but not others, because the underlying functionality is being re-written. That is not "freedom".

What I am arguing for is not for people to stop writing multiple UI's or to stop inventing new functionality. It is to start sharing code, in a more modular form, so we all benefit more quickly from functionality that is created - regardless of what we work with.


If it can be said that there are too many text editors then it can also be said that there are too many crime novels, "Pelecanos already wrote a book about crime, why waste time developing layercake?". We have our definitive text editor/crime novel and everyone else should stop wasting their time re-creating something that already exists

Again, the analogy does not work. A book is entertainment, a piece of software is a tool. Learning new tools is an inconvenience. An individual will read multiple crime novels because they enjoy them. I am yet to meet anyone who has a burning desire to use multiple text editors, although I'll admit I haven't checked.


Like, say, making a new sci fi film when people who want to watch films about sci-fi could just go watch Blade Runner?

You might have won the argument if you'd said Alien vs Predator (="http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0370263/") :D

aysiu
August 1st, 2006, 04:23 PM
Cars are tools, but people like having a wide variety of cars to choose from.

mafitzpatrick
August 1st, 2006, 04:52 PM
Cars are tools, but people like having a wide variety of cars to choose from.

People like having a wide variety of designs to choose from. As a general rule people want the most functionality that they can possibly get for their money. No buyer would answer "no" to "do you want ABS?" other than for reasons of cost.

Linux is free.

Is it me or are the analogies not really helping?

Thanol
August 1st, 2006, 05:29 PM
I agree, a lot of stuff is hard to get working under Linux; heck half the battle is finding instructions that actually apply to you. Thank god I got a Linux compatible wifi adapter, the last one I had was a PITA to use with ndiswrapper.

jonrkc
August 1st, 2006, 06:45 PM
I agree, a lot of stuff is hard to get working under Linux; heck half the battle is finding instructions that actually apply to you. Thank god I got a Linux compatible wifi adapter, the last one I had was a PITA to use with ndiswrapper.I've often experienced this: I find via Google or a forum search a post that seems to solve a problem I'm having, only to discover that the information is out of date and no longer applies. On a forum it's usually easy to see how old the post is and decide if it's worth following up on; if it's over two years old and not pertaining to something really basic, I'll often ignore it. On other Web pages, it's more often than not impossible to tell the date. I've looked at page sources trying to find the date in a non-displaying header; can't remember ever succeeding this way. When I write HTML, I almost always date every page. I guess that's not fashionable. Many HTML editors will automatically re-date ever page update--which may or may not be useful to somebody else, depending on what was changed on the page....

I do wish Google would show the retrieval date of every result. That would help weed out stuff that's clearly no longer useful. Something written in 1999 about a sound problem is not apt to have much bearing on today's setups.

I may purchase a sound card today; have always been operating with motherboard sound chips since 1989. Yesterday sound worked part of the time and in more than one app at once; today it works in some apps and not in others, when it works at all. I did not change the system overnight.

I expect the sound card not to work, but I'll give it a try, I guess. I'd switch distros but very fortunately I tried others before settling on Ubuntu, which despite all seems to have fewer problems for normal everyday users than any other I've tried out. So I have no intention of abandoning Ubuntu. It's better than nothing.

kabus
August 1st, 2006, 06:52 PM
Why is this thread in Fridge Discussions?

jonrkc
August 1st, 2006, 07:04 PM
Why is this thread in Fridge Discussions?
I thought this was a general discussion area; and this deals with a general problem which apparently has no specific solution. The problem is that sound is very difficult or impossible to get working. There can be so many reasons for this, that no general solution is forthcoming.

Sorry if I should have put it somewhere else... I certainly don't mind if a moderator chooses to move it or delete it entirely. That's what moderators are for.

w_r_cromwell
August 1st, 2006, 07:51 PM
Hi There,

I think all those distributions and variations are one the strong points...not a weak link. As for versions and chaos...ever hear of dll hell? Ever work in an environment with lots of different versions of Windows on the same network? That isn't any prettier.

If Microsoft would allow us to customize and recompile our own kernel so we could get rid of the problems we have with Windows then MS Windows would have as many if not more variations.

Corporations and MBA types want to make people, systems, and the universe all simple so they don't have to do any real work to manage it (as if they really could). We would be cookie cutter identical in their perfect world. Apparently the source of this little blurb is one of those corporate rags. I'll take my linux in the flavor of my own choice...even if that changes daily.

Bill

egon spengler
August 2nd, 2006, 10:07 AM
Again, the analogy does not work. A book is entertainment, a piece of software is a tool. Learning new tools is an inconvenience. An individual will read multiple crime novels because they enjoy them. I am yet to meet anyone who has a burning desire to use multiple text editors, although I'll admit I haven't checked.

The point is that the 50+ text editors available give people choice as to functionality. The differences are deeper than just the GUI. I prefer to use gvim, some like vim, some emacs others like kate, gedit, scite, kwrite, nano, pico or magnum. It's an absolute fact that gedit can't do what (g)vim can but nonetheless for various perfectly legitimate reasons many people would prefer to use gedit. If you want to take the strict line of "Gedit can write text, why would you possibly need another text editor?" then I think that you CAN equally say "Blade runner is a sci-fi/cyberpunk/Harrison Ford film, why would you possibly need another sci-fi/cyberpunk/Harrison Ford film?"

The key distinction that you are missing is much like Event Horizon vs. Blade Runner, nano vs. jedit offers a completely different experience

This applies to aysiu's car analogy as well, people very often buy cars to serve a specific functionality. Farmers may well have a range rover. People with four kids likely won't have a two seat triumph. There's more to it than just red car or blue car

cantormath
August 2nd, 2006, 10:10 AM
regarding the distribution concern, there are several different distros, but there is one linux, linux is the kernel. Regardless of the distro differences, they can all work together, if you know what todo.
On the other hand, windows intentionally makes it hard working with anything other then windows.

mattheweast
August 2nd, 2006, 10:24 AM
Yes, this is in the wrong forum - perhaps move it to Ubuntu Cafe?

Matt

mafitzpatrick
August 2nd, 2006, 10:40 AM
The point is that the 50+ text editors available give people choice as to functionality. The differences are deeper than just the GUI. It's an absolute fact that gedit can't do what (g)vim can but nonetheless for various perfectly legitimate reasons many people would prefer to use gedit.

Take vim vs. emacs. There is no real difference in functionality, but rather in the means you use to get to that fucntionality. This is the UI.

Can you name one function in vim that is not available in emacs? Can you name one that cannot or should not be added for valid technical reasons?


The key distinction that you are missing is much like Event Horizon vs. Blade Runner, nano vs. jedit offers a completely different experience

Through the UI.

There is no sensible reason to exclude (relevant) functionality from a program. There may be legitimate reasons to exclude it from the UI.

The point is, at heart, every text editor does the same thing. Every graphics package does the same thing. While creating different ways of interacting with the software (GUI/UI) is valid, rewriting existing function in seperate software is not.


This applies to aysiu's car analogy as well, people very often buy cars to serve a specific functionality. Farmers may well have a range rover. People with four kids likely won't have a two seat triumph. There's more to it than just red car or blue car

Technological limitation. As far as I'm aware people would, given the choice, like to have a single car which suited all needs. If I could get a vehicle which transformed into 4x4 when needed, extended to provide extra seats, and adjusted it's engine power to my needs, I'd take it. People compromise because of what is not possible.

There is no similar technological limitation in software.

AllenGG
August 2nd, 2006, 04:17 PM
The thread starter had a simple problem, he couldn't get his sound card to work. Had that problems many times when shipping a system out the door with MS Windows. Old problem, New Solution: go through the "FORUMS" first.

tageiru
August 2nd, 2006, 04:42 PM
Because of manufacturers who don't care enough about Linux users to provide open specs or drivers, period. Things you can do:

- Buy compatible hardware

- Get organized with others to put pressure on manufacturers to provide Linux support

- Donate money to developers who go to great pains to make open source drivers for hardware without open specs when they're under no obligation to do so

- Spend years learning computer science, mathematics and programming and reach a skill level where you can write a driver or help other programmers write one

- Quit using Linux

Simple as that, no other solutions.
What a load of ********!

This problem has nothing to do with closed drivers, it is poor support for software mixing in Linux. Fortunately the situation is looking better these days. The software mixer dmix gives us proper software mixing in ALSA, altough some problems still remain with older OSS-based software.

kabus
August 2nd, 2006, 04:54 PM
The thread starter had a simple problem, he couldn't get his sound card to work. Had that problems many times when shipping a system out the door with MS Windows. Old problem, New Solution: go through the "FORUMS" first.

Having to configure ALSA isn't exactly a simple problem, it's rather messy and forums don't always help.
That some other OS might have sound problems too is beside the point.

jonrkc
August 2nd, 2006, 05:10 PM
Yes, this is in the wrong forum - perhaps move it to Ubuntu Cafe?

Matt
Sounds good to me.

Its proper place would be wherever threads belong from those who love Linux but are angered and exasperated because of its unsurmountable shortcomings for average users, like a good parent seeing a bright and talented child throwing away his or her life.

Sorry I confused this venue with the Cafe. The distinctions here are not quite as clear to me as on other forum sites. I'll get better. :) Even if sound, under Linux, doesn't. :(

jonrkc
August 2nd, 2006, 05:11 PM
Having to configure ALSA isn't exactly a simple problem, it's rather messy and forums don't always help.
That some other OS might have sound problems too is beside the point.

For the record, I have spent literally hundreds of hours over the past three years searching forums, out-of-date websites (including official ones) and other material found via Google, in a vain attempt to make sense of the chaotic Linux sound situation.

jonrkc
August 2nd, 2006, 05:12 PM
The thread starter had a simple problem, he couldn't get his sound card to work. Had that problems many times when shipping a system out the door with MS Windows. Old problem, New Solution: go through the "FORUMS" first.
Please see response to Kabus, below.

I have spent hundreds of hours searching for a solution. I have tried, and I know better what I've tried than a third party does. There is no need to be judgmental here or anywhere else.

bonzodog
August 2nd, 2006, 05:54 PM
I have to admit, when I got my machine I deliberately specced it so it would be primarily used in Linux, And thus got hardware that Just Worked. My Soundcard is an nvidia on board card using the realtek chipset, and was loaded from the word go.

One thing a lot of people do not appreciate is that the drivers for a lot of hardware on linux are actually the result of many hours of reverse engineering, which is illegal in certain places on the planet.

The advantage open source reverse engineering has is that it is almost impossible to find or track the developers, and most of the time, the manufacturers turn a blind eye as it saves them developing for a "minor" platform.

aysiu
August 2nd, 2006, 06:33 PM
The problems in this thread are legitimate, but the thread title is sensationalist BS. Fuscia (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=191984) and NewLinux (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=215690) have had no such sound problems on their System76 laptops. The "main reason" never has anything to do with installing and configuring an operating system (Windows, Linux, or otherwise).

Does Dell give you a blank computer and Windows XP CD and say, "Here, install this yourself. Find the drivers yourself. Good luck"? What a crock of s**t.

Be honest with yourself and just title your thread "My sound problems in Ubuntu. I'm frustrated."

kornelix
August 2nd, 2006, 07:45 PM
So before trying ubuntu you carefully weighed the pros and cons of each distro? Of course you didn't, you probably considered 3-5 distros, 10 at the most. There already is a self selecting top 20-30 distros which are popular and widely used. Then of that 20-30 not all are intended to be used by those new to Linux (gentoo, arch and it's derivatives, slackware and it's derivatives) and so there's probaby 10-20 distros likely to get recommended to a new user. Keep talking about this "problem" of 500 distros all that you like but you probably can't name 50 off the head. It's a complete non issue.

Here's a question for you kornelix, should the people that don't want to contribute to a big distro like debian (plus of course don't forget debian has high standards, they may not be up to par to make the debian team) not be allowed to make their own distro if they so wish?

I don't believe you are prepared to listen to anyone griping about Linux, so this is likely a waste of time. However, I just stumbled on something that should get your attention. It is on a web site of a software company trying to produce software for Linux (and other OS's). You likely are a user of this software, as am I (cdrecord, mkisofs, growisofs, and the many Linux CD and DVD recorder programs that are based on these packages). Enjoy.

WARNING: Do not use 'mc' to extract the tar file!
All mc versions before 4.0.14 cannot extract symbolic links correctly.

Linux is the most self incompatible OS I know. If you have any problem,
first carefully read this file.

Linux includes the gnu make program by default but it is called 'make' on linux.
You will definitely need the shell script Gmake.linux to use gmake
on a linux system.

Install it as /usr/bin/Gmake with:

cp Gmake.linux /usr/bin/Gmake

Then compile the system by calling:

/usr/bin/Gmake
or ./Gmake.linux

NOTE for all Linux 2.5.x versions and all Linux versions before 2.6.8:

Linux did ship with defective kernel include files starting
with 2.5.x. These defective kernel include files did prevent
compilation. If you have problems compiling software and see
error messages related to include/scsi/scsi.h & include/scsi/sg.h
either upgrade to Linux-2.6.8 or newer or remove /usr/src/linux

NOTE for all Linux versions using libc.so.6:

Libc.so.6 is definitely a big problem in binary compatibility.
First you should note that Linux is not a OS but only a kernel.

Creating a OS from kernel, libraries and applications is done
by various companies that create "Linux distributions". It seems
that these companies (e.g. SuSE and Red Hat) are fighting wars
against each other.

There is no guarantee that a binary that has been compiled
on one Linux distribution will run correctly on a different
release of the same vendor or on a distribution from a different
vendor. You cannot copy binaries between different Linux
versions, always compile the sources by yourself.

We should consider that the name libc.so.6 is burned out for
these incompatibility reasons. But stop: Don't be too fast.
The dynamic linker on Linux does not work correctly. It has
been derived from the SunOS 4.x linker (which worked correctly)
but the Linux version does not even warn if it could not
find a library with the right major version number. Until
this is fixed it makes no sense to switch to libc.so.7

See below for more information.


NOTES for S.u.S.E distributions: If the "make" run aborts with strange messages,
then you need to unset an environment variable called PROMPT_COMMAND
It contains illegal values for a make file system.

I M P O R T A N T

please carefully read all notes:

Newer Linux kernels (from 2.3.51) moved SVSv shared memory into a filesystem.
If you get messages with error code EINVAL related to shared memory, you
most likely installed a newer kernel on an old system that does not mount
the new shared memory filesystem.
For information on this filesystem please read README.linux-shm

If you have any problems to access a device on the SCSI bus, check your
/dev/sg devices first. Your system should either only have /dev/sga...
or /dev/sg0... The newer Linux kernel use /dev/sg0... so the actual
SCSI transport code checks for /dev/sg0... first. Many Linux installations
have too few /dev/sg* device nodes. This is because of the funny device
mapping. It may be possible that one SCSI device eats up 8 /dev/sg* entries.
I recommend to have at least 20 /dev/sg* device nodes.

In any case: first read the man page for hints how to specify the device.
If nothing helps, first run e.g. cdrecord -scanbus. If this does not find
your device, the problem is in your kernel or system installation.
If scanning the bus finds the device, you are using the wrong device name.
If nothing help try to call e.g. strace cdrecord

Linux ATAPI hints:

Read README.ATAPI to learn how to use ATAPI drives with the SCSI transport
library.

Linux SCSI hints:

If you want to use the user SCSI library on a target that is connected
to a SCSI hostadapter which is not the first, you need to apply a patch
to your Linux kernel code. This patch is located in the file

Linux.scsi-patch

Please chdir to /usr/src, call
patch < Linux.scsi-patch
and re-compile and re-install your kernel.

Linux kernels past 2.0.30 will probably already have this patch included.

I recommend to use Linux 2.0.35 or later or Linux 2.1.115 or later.
These versions of Linux will include ATAPI support in a way needed by cdrecord.
Linux 2.1.115 or newer will in addition support the Parallel Port / ATAPI
adapters found in some CD-R or CD-RW drives.

IMPORTANT:

- Linux driver design oddities ******************************************
Although cdrecord supports to use dev=/dev/sgc, it is not recommended
and it is unsupported.

The /dev/sg* device mapping in Linux is not stable! Using dev=/dev/sgc
in a shell script may fail after a reboot because the device you want
to talk to has moved to /dev/sgd. For the proper and OS independent
dev=<bus>,<tgt>,<lun> syntax read the man page of cdrecord.

- Linux Kernel bug ************************************************** ****
In some architectures (at least on sparc / alpha / ppc) kernels prior
to 2.0.32 are not usable because the call to mlockall() kills cdrecord.

- You configured you kernel the wrong way *******************************
If you get a message like:

cdrecord: Function not implemented. shmget failed

You need to look for three possible reasons:

- You are using a Linux Kernel 2.3.51 or newer.
Read README.linux-shm

- You removed SVSv IPC from your kernel. You need to enable it again.
Run a Linux kernel config and recompile with SYSv IPC.

- The allowed amount of shared memory in the kernel is
not sufficient. See next main point for a solution:

- Linux kernel oddities *************************************************
You may need to edit /usr/src/linux/include/asm*/shmparam.h to allow at least
4 MB of shared memory for your architecture by modifying SHMMAX
and re-compile/re-install Linux !
(note that Linux for Intel by default allows 16 MB)

Do this by e.g. changing the #define for SHMMAX to:

#define SHMMAX 0x1000000 /* max shared seg size (bytes) */

This will allow 16 MB for shared memory.

- Linux kernel memory management ****************************************
If you get the message: "Cannot allocate memory. Cannot send SCSI cmd via ioctl"
Your kernel/include files are inconsistent.

This seems to be the case with most actual Linux kernels!!!!!!

Make sure, that the include file /usr/src/linux/include/scsi/sg.h
reflects the actual kernel. Usually, the files /usr/include/scsi/sg.h
and /usr/src/linux/include/scsi/sg.h should be identical.

**** Never change the content of /usr/src/linux/include/scsi/sg.h without
properly recompiling the kernel. Cdrecord depends on the fact that
the value of the define SG_BIG_BUFF uses the same value as the actual
kernel. Use cdrecord -scanbus -debug to get the value of SG_BIG_BUFF
with cdrecord has been compiled. An output of:

scsi_getbuf: 32768 bytes

indicates that cdrecord has been compiled with 32k SG_BIG_BUF

The Linux 'sg' driver is the worst driver design, I've ever seen.

- Linux Binary incompatibility *****************************************
If any of the options that take a equal sign ('=') in the middle does
not work correctly (e.g. dev= or if=) you are using a binary that
does not work correctly on your current OS distribution.

If dev=0,0,0 does not work but -dev=0,0,0 works you found this
incompatibility. This problem is caused by an incompatibility
in ctype.h and it seems that there are other compatibility problems
e.g. with reading /etc/default/cdrecord.

You cannot copy binaries between different Linux versions,
always compile the sources by yourself.

If a hint from a user is correct then even a RPM binary built for
RH-6.2 did not work on RH-6.2 because of these binary incompatibilities.


Joerg

zxee
August 3rd, 2006, 04:47 AM
What a great thread!! I've read almost all of what was posted and was struck by the diversity of thoughts-ideas. Maybe the OP doesn't like having what he presented challenged but he's still to be congratulated for opening this up.
As I was reading all of the comments I though how interesting and even unique we are. Everyone has skills abilities and ideas to share. I'm very sincre about this I was moved-I laughed was impressed-the gamut.
But as this idea of efficency was forwarded would it not be a better use of our time if we all sort of faced the same direction and thought, worked and put our energies into a focused centralized goal?
It wouldn't be efficency we would be thinking most about most then. I suspect most of us would be trying to escape from such a circumstance. The lofty ideal of efficency pales when you actually consider what you have to give up to produce it.

kornelix
August 3rd, 2006, 06:27 AM
... The lofty ideal of efficency pales when you actually consider what you have to give up to produce it.
I am not sure I understand your point. My cynical opinion: we should give up some freedom to be prolific and creative (feeding our egos) in order to be more productive for the universe of users. The problem is that the gurus of Linux love the chaos, or at least are not concerned. Their creative freedom is what is important. We users get to sort it out (or run back to that sorry Windows where the options are limited but it usually works.).

H.E. Pennypacker
August 3rd, 2006, 06:29 AM
I know people like me are in the minority, and that alone is a great shame. If people like me were in the majority, Linux would be on top of many tall buildings, and available almost everywhere.

What kind of a person am I? The complete opposite of people like aysiu. I am a supporter of standardizations, and adopting a common goal...one path for Linux instead of hundreds of small distros, one large distro to represent GNU/Linux. I would allow not give users the option between desktop environments: just one DE. If you don't force people to use one thing, they'll go on to do what they want to do. Choice is a curse in many cases.

zxee
August 3rd, 2006, 04:49 PM
I am not sure I understand your point. My cynical opinion: we should give up some freedom to be prolific and creative (feeding our egos) in order to be more productive for the universe of users. The problem is that the gurus of Linux love the chaos, or at least are not concerned. Their creative freedom is what is important. We users get to sort it out (or run back to that sorry Windows where the options are limited but it usually works.).
IMO what you and H.E Pennypacker want is a perfectly controlled world where everything functions according to some inorganic ideal. In trying to achieve that you will kill off creativity along with many other things. The results of that won't be one super linux distro. It will be no linux at all.
Take a look at the captialist business model as it actually functions in the world. Do consumers get what they want or even need. I believe that they don't-and I worked for a huge multinational corporation most of my life. Consumers get want the corporation finds most easy to produce and distribute. And the efficency argument is a screen for eliminating small business that won't adhere to the ruthless philosophy of said corporations.

kornelix
August 3rd, 2006, 06:08 PM
IMO what you and H.E Pennypacker want is a perfectly controlled world where everything functions according to some inorganic ideal. In trying to achieve that you will kill off creativity along with many other things. The results of that won't be one super linux distro. It will be no linux at all.
Take a look at the captialist business model as it actually functions in the world. Do consumers get what they want or even need. I believe that they don't-and I worked for a huge multinational corporation most of my life. Consumers get want the corporation finds most easy to produce and distribute. And the efficency argument is a screen for eliminating small business that won't adhere to the ruthless philosophy of said corporations.

Huh? You are way off the track. For the most part, consumers dictate what is produced and corporations compete viciously for customers. The fastest way to mass poverty is to abandon free market capitalism for socialism. History has proven this adequately.

There are exceptions, like Microsoft, who won the market with unethical monopolistic business arrangements, like "install windows on 100% of your computers or else you will have to pay a high price for windows." Please don't call this capitalism. It is an abuse of fair play that should have been stopped (it has been curtailed in some cases, but too little, too late).

There is an important exception to the "consumers rule" rule: free software can ignore what consumers want since it is serving the producers more than the consumers, and is not driven by money from consumers.

There has to be a balance between total freedom (chaos) and total dictatorship (stifling innovation). Consumers in a free market also make this choice, and today they are choosing Windows instead of Linux. There are many reasons, but one of them is lack of standardization in Linux and the development and support costs this causes.

zxee
August 3rd, 2006, 06:17 PM
Huh? You are way off the track. For the most part, consumers dictate what is produced and corporations compete viciously for customers. The fastest way to mass poverty is to abandon free market capitalism for socialism. History has proven this adequately.

There are exceptions, like Microsoft, who won the market with unethical monopolistic business arrangements, like "install windows on 100% of your computers or else you will have to pay a high price for windows." Please don't call this capitalism. It is an abuse of fair play that should have been stopped (it has been curtailed in some cases, but too little, too late).

There is an important exception to the "consumers rule" rule: free software can ignore what consumers want since it is serving the producers more than the consumers, and is not driven by money from consumers.

There has to be a balance between total freedom (chaos) and total dictatorship (stifling innovation). Consumers in a free market also make this choice, and today they are choosing Windows instead of Linux. There are many reasons, but one of them is lack of standardization in Linux and the development and support costs this causes.

You're not reading what I'm posting e.g how capitalism ACTUALLY works in the world. But I suspect you never will, maybe we're both too locked into our own views. I have seen many products and competitors that were ploughed under by the corporation that I was an employee of. Those products/competitors were not inferior to those we produced they just were not capable of sustaining market share against a ruthless business with deep deep pockets.
I simply don't agree with your views or IMO misplaced idealism.
Oh, and your first paragraph is exactly the belief those corporations are always spouting ( a definate meme ) you're suppose to believe that. LOL

cantormath
August 3rd, 2006, 06:29 PM
The Biggest problem is that john doe cant get a free copy of linux and install it on a machine without some kind of hardware issue. This is not linux's fault, its the hardware companies who are afraid of everyday people using linux instead of windows. So they don't write the drivers, or provide the support for linux, a job that could easily be accomplished. Why is that, well one reason is that if those everyday people were able to use linux, they would not have to buy new hardware every 3 years, or in the case of vista, every six. They could keep there hardware more like 7-10 years.

Linux, together with BSD, owns the server world. And thats the way its gonna stay. It has become this way with the linux/unix community defining how they should be on there own, the way it is now. In my opinion, the Linux communitee gets along fine with the BSD community; as long as it *nix, it's all good.

Now Linux is really emerging, no pun intended, into the desktop market, with the help of companies like Canonical, Novell, Redhat and IBM. With this, there are lot of opinion of the "problems" of linux. I believe linux has problems, nothing is perfect, but that article did not hit it on the head, it didn't even swing.

aysiu
August 3rd, 2006, 06:34 PM
If people want to keep rehashing the same arguments over and over again because it entertains you, be my guest. In the meantime, I've added this thread to my list (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=219243), so you can read the many archives of these arguments repeated numerous times. Have a nice day.

H.E. Pennypacker
August 3rd, 2006, 08:09 PM
Let's not turn this discussion into Capitalism VS. Socialism.

mojacks
August 4th, 2006, 02:38 AM
I find nothing wrong with the thread title, I feel it's sadly accurate. I've been a long OpenBSD user, which BSD gets even less support than Linux. I like Ubuntu, it runs great, it runs the servers I've set up like a champ, but from day 1 I have had sound problems. I finally got Ubuntu to play sound by typing a few commands before logging in, I didn't like it but it did the job. Today I did an update from whatever the Ubuntu updates service is called and those same commands that used to give me sound throw me errors as the system no longer sees my card.

So, I think it's a great OS, best non-MS I've used to date, but being my main computer I won't put up without having sound for much longer.

What cards do hardware mixing and work with Ubuntu?

DoktorSeven
August 4th, 2006, 06:57 AM
I got lucky and had a sound card that supported hardware mixing in ALSA (Turtle Beach Santa Cruz, which uses snd-cs46xx), but I've seen other systems that do not have hardware mixing support that really have issues getting sound to work consistently in Linux.

I just hope that dmix (or something similar) can eventually make mixing sound on unsupported cards a trivial matter -- from what I have read, it takes a bit of configuration to get it working now.

adamkane
August 4th, 2006, 09:37 AM
Linux and its chaotic state represent an alternate worldview. It isn't socialism, but there's is an analogy to draw.

The thread started out with a complaint that Linux wasn't more like Windows, and there are very important reasons why this is so.

joflow
August 4th, 2006, 01:25 PM
I still can't get Ubuntu to work with my Audigy 2. Stereo sound is fine and I get all 5 of my speakers to output sound. However, I can't get true surround in movies and such.

I'm thinking of building a HTPC. I wanted to go with MythTV but because of my hardware, I'm probably going to end up using MCE.

Redcard
August 4th, 2006, 01:36 PM
Ayisu mentioned Dell as an example in this:

As someone who attempted to install a Server based OS on what Dell deemed their "workstation" line.. let me tell you that it is almost impossible.

First, Dell has rebranded all their cards to read "Dell this" or "Dell that." That means you have to find the drivers. Simple, you say, go on Dell's site! Wrong. Dell doesn't have drivers for Server OSes in their workstation packages. At all. No Drivers. When I contacted Dell, they said "That machine is not classed for Servers" and .. get this.. "You're not ALLOWED to run server OS'es on it." I was told that.

So.. anyway, I pop in Ubuntu, which of course autodetects everything, and I find out the models and drivers Ubuntu uses. I backtrack and find THOSE drivers off the original card manufacturers site, and then I install them with a forced workaround the driver signing.

Yay. Now I can actually access the DISK on the machine to do my 2003 install.

This process was repeated for the network. The sound card. The USB Bridge. The REAL drivers for video card. And the second network card.

So the next time someone tells me that Dell's just work and Ubuntu doesn't.. if I were tasked with putting linux on this box, it would have taken 30 minutes. Windows took me the better part of a day because Dell doesn't want you running Server OS'es on Workstation machines.. and they rebrand ALL their cards to lock you into that.

And that is exactly what the sound card people are doing as well. We have control over certain things, and we lose control on certain things. Badly coded drivers are something we've got NO control over.

And by the way, the person going with the Media CEnter Edition? Good luck with that. I bet it doesn't work either. The sound system on every MCE I've seen, regardless of sound card, has been 2.1.

egon spengler
August 4th, 2006, 03:27 PM
Take vim vs. emacs. There is no real difference in functionality, but rather in the means you use to get to that fucntionality. This is the UI.

Can you name one function in vim that is not available in emacs? Can you name one that cannot or should not be added for valid technical reasons?



Through the UI.

There is no sensible reason to exclude (relevant) functionality from a program. There may be legitimate reasons to exclude it from the UI.

Well of the top of the head one way in which jedit differs from pico is pico has no incremental search. I'm sure that as you can see what you're searching for you'll pass that off as *just* a UI thing. The thing you're overlooking is that people like variety in things, that's why we all dress in different styles and listen to different music. That is why it's legitimate for someone to create gedit to cater for those who prefer to edit text in that manner of environment even though vi and pico were already long established. I'm sure that any example of variance between different text editors you'll dismiss as nothing but UI.

I really doubt that in every aspect of your life you reduce an object down to it's basest functionality then deride all similar endeavours as wastefull reinvention "bah, look at the cheeseburger, it's nothing but a hamburger with cheese. That energy would have been better spent collaborating on hamburgers"


I don't believe you are prepared to listen to anyone griping about Linux, so this is likely a waste of time.

Possibly the most annoying thing of the many annoying things that crop up on these forums is the multitude of posters who start a thread then take offence when someone dares to not share their opinion. If you take offence to me disagreeing with you then perhaps in future you should add a disclaimer "Please don't post in this thread unless it is to pat me on the back and tell me how smart I am to figure this all out"

scaryjones
August 4th, 2006, 05:32 PM
Obviously I'm not human as I can't figure out how to use this software.

A little background info might help explain the level of frustration Ubuntu has pushed me to.

I'm a long time Windows user who grew up on DOS and has used each version of Windows right up to XP Pro which is my current OS. I read about Ubuntu and its philosophy of presenting a pleasant interface for people who would like an easy intro to the world of linux. So I thought I'd download it and try it out.

I got the ISO, burned it without a problem, put it into my PC and booted from it. All worked well. The ubuntu logo appeared and asked me if I'd like to install / start Ubuntu. 'How user-friendly' I thought, this is an impressive product.

I chose 'install/start' and waited while the CD drive went wild doing the install. A few mins later and I was navigating the linux desktop and marvelling at how painless the install process was. My previous install of Windows was seemingly removed and all was well. So I rebooted. Win XP reappeared....weird...thought I'd copied over you with the Ubuntu install. No worries, I'll boot the CD again. Same process, I arrive at the linux desktop and think that maybe I'm using a kind of 'preview' mode, read a little online and this appeared to be the truth.

Then noticed an 'Install' icon on the desktop and assumed that this meant 'Click me to install Ubuntu properly'. So I clicked it. Three hours (no exaggeration) later I finally get fed up of seeing a completely blank screen and hearing my CD drive accessing constantly. Something was happening alright but would linux be friendly enough to actually tell me what was going on? No. I was forced to turn off the PC and try again.

Get to the Ubuntu desktop...click Install again. 1 hour later (as I type this) the other PC is still doing SOMETHING, what exactly that something is I have no idea. Nothing is changing on the screen, no indication of any progress is being given but the damn CD drive is very active. So something somewhere is happening but I don't have time to second guess when this process might actually complete, so I'm going to turn off the PC again.

I realise this isn't windows, I realise Ubuntu will require quite a lot of tech-savvyness compared to Windows and I'm willing to try, as long as the damn software will let me. A basic install would be nice.

So I try these forums (which have a really annoying mouse-over CSS error in IE on the PC) and find NOTHING. No step-by-step guide to installing Ubuntu, no clues as to what might be going on, nothing at all for the casual user to read to explain why the hell their PC is going mad trying to install something that by all indications will take a week to produce the first intro screen. Is three hours normal for an install? I thought this was supposed to be a lighter install than Windows. What's going on?

In case anyone reads this far and would like to help me discover how to install this software then here's my situation. I have an old PC (sufficient to run the software though) with Win XP on it. I have Ubuntu Dapper install CD. I want XP off my machine and Ubuntu on it.

That simple. That easy. You'd think it would be easy. It's not so if anyone can help me become a 'human being' so that I can use Ubuntu, that would be great.

cstudent
August 4th, 2006, 05:42 PM
When you popped in your Ubuntu CD the first time and booted up your computer that booted you up on the live CD. Ubuntu was not installed. It was running from the CD. When you finally clicked the install icon you where then trying to install Ubuntu to your hard drive. Sounds to me, and hopefully for you, the CD may have some defects. There is an option when you start to boot from the CD that will allow you to check it for problems. Try that and see if it gives you an error. Hopefully, your Windows is still in tact at this point.

evil_elman
August 4th, 2006, 05:44 PM
Something seems to be wrong with the live CD... When I installed (and I've done a couple of times by now) I've never been in the situation of not being informed of what's going on during installation.

When you insert the CD again, could you check if there's an option to 'Check CD for errors' or similar to see if there's anything wrong with it, perhaps...?

[EDIT] Beat me to it... :---)

derouge
August 4th, 2006, 05:44 PM
When you say you downloaded the ISO .. was it the full installation image or the LiveCD image? I've used the LiveCD as well as have done a full install. During the full installation it was not as simple as click install and go. That sounds more like the live CD.

derouge
August 4th, 2006, 05:45 PM
Ahh .. so many replies just as I posted! Hehe. Check out the Installation Help page, too: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation It may shed some light on a future install, as well as give you a few alternative methods.

MaximB
August 4th, 2006, 05:47 PM
after you download the iso
you need to burn it as ISO
not data or somthing alse...

Arisna
August 4th, 2006, 05:48 PM
When you say you downloaded the ISO .. was it the full installation image or the LiveCD image? I've used the LiveCD as well as have done a full install. During the full installation it was not as simple as click install and go. That sounds more like the live CD.

That's how it works on Dapper... are you perhaps thinking of an earlier release?

Tomosaur
August 4th, 2006, 05:48 PM
Seems like you've had a pretty unfortunate (but very rare) experience. The reason there's not much in the way of an installation howto is that you should be able to see whatever it is the installer is doing. I would suggest you re-download and re-burn your ISO, then try it out. I don't really trust a CD which can check itself for defects :/

derouge
August 4th, 2006, 05:53 PM
Oh, you're right Arisna. I installed Breezy Badger and then upgraded to Dapper when it came out (using the Update Manager). With the installation method as it is now, chances are that the CD was faulty. Reburn it and try that. If it doesn't work either try:

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/FromKnoppix Knoppix Install - "If the Ubuntu installer lets you down"

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/FromWindows No CD Needed - "Installing Ubuntu from Windows without using floppies, a CD, or any other removeable media"

stanz
August 4th, 2006, 06:44 PM
That's what using m$ does to people, expect this & that, leaving them empty minded. It's what it is..
Now, we're gonna learn how to use our pc, with a different 'mindset', and we'll stamp our feet less & less, each day!
I can't believe you found NOTHING, in these fine forums...One newbie to another ~ Don't stop reading or searching!
The Search Bar up top, works well, try different input methods.
Here's a link, to a page, with pictures - about the Graphical Install, WITH Instructions...Click Here. (https://help.ubuntu.com/community/GraphicalInstall)
Also, I believe when the install disk brings up its first Graphic Interface, we have the choice:
"Start or Install Ubuntu". Which is only the first step.
And make sure the cd drive your using IS able to do this.
My CD Burner worked the install process, even tho my DVD brought up the program, it wasn't able to install it![?]
And yes ~ check CD for Errors...downloads over the net - are not perfect, so hold back on flaming the os! :-&

T700
August 4th, 2006, 06:57 PM
Obviously I'm not human as I can't figure out how to use this software.

Read the forum. Use there search function. Use Google. Ask questions. Don't whine.

There is plenty of information here and LOTS of people, myself included, who volunteer our time to help. We want to help. We will help you. However, you must be willing to work to help yourself.

Paul

aysiu
August 4th, 2006, 07:11 PM
It's interesting how it never occurred to you that your experience might be the exception, not the rule.

Ask questions, and you'll get answers.

Complain, and you'll get nothing.

Lord Illidan
August 4th, 2006, 07:12 PM
It's interesting how it never occurred to you that your experience might be the exception, not the rule.

Ask questions, and you'll get answers.

Complain, and you'll get nothing.

*Applauds.*

P.S. Aysiu, can I add your homepage (psychocats) to my blog?

_simon_
August 4th, 2006, 07:16 PM
No one seems to have suggested it yet but re-burn the CD at a slower speed e.g. 4x and give it another go.

The installation takes about 15 mins give or take.

IYY
August 4th, 2006, 07:20 PM
Sometimes (it's rare and never happened to me, but I heard stories), the LiveCD installer has problems. If you download the Alternate CD (a non-GUI installer), you may very well have better luck.

Danny Boy
August 4th, 2006, 07:23 PM
The installation takes about 15 mins give or take.

On a decently powered system. My desktop takes about 20 mintues to install. I just installed on my sister's laptop and it took well over an hour for partition and install procedure.

To the original poster: Don't get frusterated as others have said you could've gotten a bad download. It happens. Download the ISO again, and re-burn it at the slowest possible speed this way you have less chance of a burn error.

vm_yap
August 4th, 2006, 07:24 PM
same situation I have when I first time installed ubuntu on a laptop, I think 5.10 was the version but after a day changed it back to winxp. for some reason I'm having a hard time adjusting to ubuntu environment but since i'm open to new stuff, im now back to linux well mostly.. I'm still using winxp as my primary OS because its easier for me and most softwares i use runs on wndows..

I actually had a hard time installing linux because of the partitons i have.. but thankfully this forum exist and I actually got it running.

1 thing I hate about it is that after installing linux it will actually download more files on the net which will take another day, plus you have be awake when doing so because it requires you to actually type the root password to install or run some updates. I know theres a command to actually automate this. Maybe in some time most update files can be included in the installer hehe, so that you can use linux out of the box.

btw has anyone here knows how do I be able to mount my sata 2 drive (it work as sata 1 since it is installed on sata 1 board). I tried the ones i found on the net and its still says its mounted or busy... even the partion on my pata that has ntfs filesystem cant be access anyone knows a solution.

another is the internet speed on Ubuntu really slow? cause when i downloaded some updates it take much longer than on windows?

ty..

FenrisAbraxas
August 4th, 2006, 07:25 PM
Sometimes (it's rare and never happened to me, but I heard stories), the LiveCD installer has problems. If you download the Alternate CD (a non-GUI installer), you may very well have better luck.

Well if you ever tried to install Gentoo you will say that the alternate cd install has a GUI :P. j/k

You can try to reburn the iso at a lower speed as suggested before and if that doesn't work try the alternate CD it's not as pretty as the live CD installer but works great :) if you need some help learn to take note of the errors that might appear and try to tell what happened where and when :).

Neobuntu
August 4th, 2006, 07:31 PM
Don't forget:

You could ask a Ubuntu friend to do it for you.

No one said one has to delete Windows. I just suggest people stop buying it. Use your old paid for copy to run old programs, for comparison (on same hardware) and to preserve your files.

Backup things you can't live without, FIRST.

Order a new Kubuntu CD if you're having homemade CD problems.

If you are an optomist, never have there been anything overall better. If you are a pessimist, Ubuntu (I like Kubuntu) is the LEAST of evils.

aysiu
August 4th, 2006, 07:34 PM
*Applauds.*

P.S. Aysiu, can I add your homepage (psychocats) to my blog? Do you have to ask for permission to link to pages? If so, I'm in trouble! No, go ahead and add it to your blog.


Sometimes (it's rare and never happened to me, but I heard stories), the LiveCD installer has problems. If you download the Alternate CD (a non-GUI installer), you may very well have better luck. I prefer to refer to it as a text-based graphical installer. You can get a good walkthrough on it here:
http://users.bigpond.net.au/hermanzone

If you want a walkthrough on the Desktop CD, go here:
http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntu/installing.html


No one seems to have suggested it yet but re-burn the CD at a slower speed e.g. 4x and give it another go.

The installation takes about 15 mins give or take. Instructions for burning an ISO properly (speed/integrity check): http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntu/iso.html

Neobuntu
August 4th, 2006, 07:51 PM
OK, I'm going to assume you are truly frustrated and that's where the negative attitude is coming from. It is frustrating when things hang. I hate it when a computer wastes my time. I have some new glitch in my XP pro install that might be Yahoo messenger related; where everything locks up cold. As I like to dual boot for comparison on same hardware, I can tell it's probably software because unlike you, my hardware is working flawlessly with Kubuntu.

So, perhaps it's possible your graphics works during the live run but NOT during/after install due to the specific chipset?

Did the install reboot your system?

Also, perhaps the network is hanging. Sometimes the new; out of the gate reverse engineered wireless driver(module) hangs and one is better off using the old XP driver; via ndiswrapper. This requires blacklisting (putting the name in the right text file) and adding ndiswrapper (once pointed to the XP drivers) to start instead. I've had this lock up systems until fixed.

Another thought is, have you recently checked all hardware while in Windows? Could your hard drive have errors?

Describe your hardware in detail as this is likely where something has either gone bad or is unpopular.

What LAN adapters do you have? It's preferrable to be hard-connected (ethernet cat5 cable from broadband and router attached) during install; for auto updates. Then (after install) one can even install the GUI for ndiswrapper "ndis-gtk."

What graphics chip do you have?

Do you have another computer you can test?

Steggy
August 5th, 2006, 08:40 AM
I can feel your frustration. I had a similar (if not the exact same) problem when I tried to install Dapper. Believe me, if I hadn't been running Breezy for a few months previous with no problems, I would have quit then and moved on to another distro--problems during the most basic parts of the OS is the reason I use Ubuntu now after trying Debian.

If your problem is the same as the one I had (and, by your description, it seems to be), it's not the disc or how it was burned--it's simply that the Dapper graphical installer won't work correctly on your computer, for whatever reason. Download and burn the alternate install disc (go here (http://www.ubuntu.com/download), select the location closest to you, then scroll down to the "Alternate install CD", then click the correct link for your computer [since you're running windows, I'm guessing that's the "PC (Intel x86) alternate install CD"]. Alternatively, you can scroll down further to find the .torrent for the correct CD and download it that way.)

That disc does not have the prettiness of the graphic installer, but it does the job fine--it's no more difficult than installing Windows XP. I certainly prefer it--both to the WinXP installer and the Dapper graphical installer.

And please, don't get too frustrated. I know when you're trying something new, you want it to go smoothly. I know I did, and as I said before, that's the reason I'm using Ubuntu now. However, Ubuntu is a great and user-friendly OS. A lot of the community will be very willing to help--you just have to ignore that segment that will attack you whenever your complain about anything to do with Linux, Ubuntu or OSS. Do that, you will have a pleasant--if not always easy--experience.

basilwatson
August 5th, 2006, 09:10 AM
Sorry but that same thing happened to me, burnt iso, and tried to install ubuntu
One day later ( I left it overnite~ ) and it still hadnt installed, so I tried Xubuntu , a touch difficult to get on but it worked

Though 2 weeks later

I still havent got everything working ,please have a look at my threads

You can see my level of frustration, and I see it in a lot of new posts about the same things

its a wireless router at the moment

I personally want to make this work as it is a nice layout , but I cant afford to spend another wekk trying to get something simple to work, Im

seriously thinking of switching back to window , it may be crap , but its usable by Noobs like me




Stephen

Neobuntu
August 7th, 2006, 08:31 AM
Dear Basil,
If you go back to crappy Windows, you will not likely save any more time. By the way, I recomend dual booting with your old Windows before Kubuntu. Just stop feeding cash to Microsoft. That just slows overall systems progress for everyone.

Your router is not likey to be the slightest bit different.

Great rewards await the newbie who fights through initial setup and if you have an unpopular and/or crappy device that hasn't sucessfully been already reverse engineered then just replace it with (known to automagically work) inexpensive hardware. Most people have no trouble at all with their hardware but they not only don't complain, they don't sing praises either because their just using their systems and that's the (mostly and amazingly attained) way it should be.

scaryjones
August 8th, 2006, 09:07 AM
Well, thanks for all replies. It was out of genuine frustration that I posted here in the first place, not just for the same of flaming etc.

Anyway, I re-burned the install disc at 4X and tried a re-install. I got a little further, a screen asking for my geographical location appeared but the machine never let me choose anywhere. It just continually accessed the drive and acted like it was installing something (which it wasn't). So I gave up after getting to that screen two or three times. I'll try the non-graphical installation as a last resort. It's a real pity as Ubuntu looks very nicely done.

Thanks again for all replies.

Ludwig7666
August 8th, 2006, 09:42 AM
Obviously I'm not human as I can't figure out how to use this software.

A little background info might help explain the level of frustration Ubuntu has pushed me to.

I'm a long time Windows user who grew up on DOS and has used each version of Windows right up to XP Pro which is my current OS. I read about Ubuntu and its philosophy of presenting a pleasant interface for people who would like an easy intro to the world of linux. So I thought I'd download it and try it out.

I got the ISO, burned it without a problem, put it into my PC and booted from it. All worked well. The ubuntu logo appeared and asked me if I'd like to install / start Ubuntu. 'How user-friendly' I thought, this is an impressive product.

I chose 'install/start' and waited while the CD drive went wild doing the install. A few mins later and I was navigating the linux desktop and marvelling at how painless the install process was. My previous install of Windows was seemingly removed and all was well. So I rebooted. Win XP reappeared....weird...thought I'd copied over you with the Ubuntu install. No worries, I'll boot the CD again. Same process, I arrive at the linux desktop and think that maybe I'm using a kind of 'preview' mode, read a little online and this appeared to be the truth.

Then noticed an 'Install' icon on the desktop and assumed that this meant 'Click me to install Ubuntu properly'. So I clicked it. Three hours (no exaggeration) later I finally get fed up of seeing a completely blank screen and hearing my CD drive accessing constantly. Something was happening alright but would linux be friendly enough to actually tell me what was going on? No. I was forced to turn off the PC and try again.

Get to the Ubuntu desktop...click Install again. 1 hour later (as I type this) the other PC is still doing SOMETHING, what exactly that something is I have no idea. Nothing is changing on the screen, no indication of any progress is being given but the damn CD drive is very active. So something somewhere is happening but I don't have time to second guess when this process might actually complete, so I'm going to turn off the PC again.

I realise this isn't windows, I realise Ubuntu will require quite a lot of tech-savvyness compared to Windows and I'm willing to try, as long as the damn software will let me. A basic install would be nice.

So I try these forums (which have a really annoying mouse-over CSS error in IE on the PC) and find NOTHING. No step-by-step guide to installing Ubuntu, no clues as to what might be going on, nothing at all for the casual user to read to explain why the hell their PC is going mad trying to install something that by all indications will take a week to produce the first intro screen. Is three hours normal for an install? I thought this was supposed to be a lighter install than Windows. What's going on?

In case anyone reads this far and would like to help me discover how to install this software then here's my situation. I have an old PC (sufficient to run the software though) with Win XP on it. I have Ubuntu Dapper install CD. I want XP off my machine and Ubuntu on it.

That simple. That easy. You'd think it would be easy. It's not so if anyone can help me become a 'human being' so that I can use Ubuntu, that would be great.

Nice post. I liked it, good sence of humar. I also had the same problem you had/have (I think). but I figured it out the third time around. Hehee I must of goten lucky. You gotta partition the HDD before you can actually install Ubuntu. Well that worked for me. Think of it, now you don't need any anti-virus programs or to worry about the annoying ad-ware or spy-ware I do believe. It took me a week and I'm still not use to of not worring about spyware and viruses. lol. I start useing linux a week ago. I'm finding it abit easier now as I learn more of it.

Ludwig7666
August 8th, 2006, 09:53 AM
oops almost forgot. use the ubuntu liveCD to do just that. It's kinda like how windows uses it's install thingy to partition before the install. I do believe it came from windows for the partitioning. Humm wherever that program is on Ubuntu again. lol I'll go looking for it.

mafitzpatrick
August 8th, 2006, 10:58 AM
Well of the top of the head one way in which jedit differs from pico is pico has no incremental search. I'm sure that as you can see what you're searching for you'll pass that off as *just* a UI thing. The thing you're overlooking is that people like variety in things, that's why we all dress in different styles and listen to different music.

The difference you mention is core code - one provides a functionality and the other doesn't. The next question I asked was whether there is any legitimate reason for that function not to be included in pico? There isn't.

I think you've misunderstood me I am not arguing for the removal of choice, individuality or novel software development. I am arguing that where possible core-code should be unified to reduce development waste.

There are of course a multitude of reasons for different UI's to exist. I need a very different set of tools when programming to when I'm writing a shopping list. If these UIs look like vi/pico/gedit then that's great, they work.


That is why it's legitimate for someone to create gedit to cater for those who prefer to edit text in that manner of environment even though vi and pico were already long established.

Perhaps I like pico's UI but I need incremental search, where is my freedom then? "Those who prefer to edit text in that manner of environment" is exactly what I'm arguing for. Seperation of core code & UI allows for freedom in using existing tools for a new task without redundant code development.

All said & done, I think we've got a bit off-topic for this thread.


"bah, look at the cheeseburger, it's nothing but a hamburger with cheese. That energy would have been better spent collaborating on hamburgers"

Is this one of those challenges where you try and get as many analogies into a thread as possible?

I think you're winning :)

natrixgli
August 8th, 2006, 11:47 AM
You know, if M$ was smart, they'd release a window manager under the GPL. That way they could benefit from having the OSS community make their UI into something that doesn't make me want to shove large rusty spikes in my eyes, and still maintain the cloak & dagger bit with their OS.... Though it would still suck. See, I've never had to install drivers for a PCI lan card in ANY distro before, and yet today I spent hours running around my offices with a thumb drive installing device drivers to make LAN & Sound cards work with XP Pro. So I'm kind of upset with the evil empire right now.

And the 4,849,217 flavors of linux are why I personally <3 using linux so much - In just my house alone I have 3 distros humming away right now, and at work I have 2 varieties of Ubuntu, as well as CentOS, Mepis, DSL, and Slax. Different distros have different strengths & weaknesses - it's nice to have options.

-n8

zvacet
August 8th, 2006, 12:16 PM
Try alternate CD.

xpod
August 8th, 2006, 04:43 PM
Alternate cd is the way to go.
I installed unbunto on slave then after realising i liked the idea i then tried to install on older pc.all to no avail

So i then tried X and Kbunto cd`s which worked fine on here but just would not install on older sys(192ram 6ghd)
After many many many attempts i too was directed to the alternate versions.

Installed Kbunto without a hitch.Even a good newer system might encounter probs with the main version though SO go with the alternate versions

You get a lot more options and if a pc noob like me can do it then ANYBODY can

conanm4
August 8th, 2006, 07:25 PM
I'm tired of getting out of Ubuntu to play my games, which run dog slow under Wine. They also run slow with windows through vmware. I'm tired of logging out of Ubuntu to go use Premiere Pro. I'm tired of my Surround Sound not working. I'm tired of feeling stuck with a bunch of half assed bunch of applications in Ubuntu. Some are well done, Firefox, Audacity, but come on compare iTunes to gtkpod. No contest. I think Ubuntu will be ready for me, just not now. I am going to seed Ubuntu and Kubuntu Dapper on bittorent, but that's all the support I can offer. With that said good bye Ubuntu, but I will check back when my problems are resolved.

christhemonkey
August 8th, 2006, 07:27 PM
Tata for now then.

Brunellus
August 8th, 2006, 07:52 PM
threads merged. One valedictory post will suffice.

Adamant1988
August 8th, 2006, 07:57 PM
Ubuntu is NOT for everyone, maybe it will never be for you, who knows.

You've told us what you're not willing to put up with in Ubuntu, but tell us, what ARE You willing to put up with in Windows?

Viruses? Spyware? Updates that break parts of the system? WGA? DRM?
Reinstalling the OS every 6 to 9 months because the damage to the registry is so extensive that is irrepairable?

I honestly don't know if you've weighed your decisions correctly.

You've already said that you need to play your computer games... Buy a console... Consoles are going to offer a MUCH more innovative and intuitive gaming experience than the computer wil, look at the Nintendo wii. And in all the extra money you spend buying the next latest and greatest graphics card for your computer (that will be a pain in the butt set up) you'll already be forced into upgrading to a better one.

as for Premier pro, have you tried Crossover? maybe it offers some compatibility?

I'm not saying you're making the wrong choice, sometimes I feel like going crawling back to windows too, but once I give it some though... Ubuntu meets my needs anything else I can get elsewhere.

Either way, don't expect a lot of pity and "we'll miss you"'s the community isn't overly fond of these threads.

Tomosaur
August 8th, 2006, 08:08 PM
Kthxbai :D

conanm4
August 8th, 2006, 08:10 PM
I've never had a virus on this computer yet, going 2 years strong, never had to re-install and spyware has been a very little problem. I however had to re-install Ubuntu several times because I had to enable 3d acceleration and messed up my xorg.conf file, honestly 3d drivers should be much easier. Crossover Office is a joke, windows applications running on it are a lot less stable than running them in windows. Never had a problem with WGA, I've actually haven't had many problems with windows at all. I have had problems with linux, say what you want, but when I ran kde it was much less stable than Windows, in my experiences anyways. Honestly, until Ubuntu or another linux distro can do everything Windows can, and be more stable and secure I probably won't switch. My next computer however will be a sub300 one that I'll run Ubuntu. I tried getting my brother to install Ubuntu and told him what he'd have to give up and it was quite a bit. 1. Flash 9 games. 2. Kids games they purchased for their daughter. 3. MSN's official client which they like. 4. Ares, a p2p file transfer program 5. Ulead Video Studio, which they like for video editing. He responded saying "what do I get out of it?" I said no viruses and spyware. He said it wasn't a problem for him for the most part.

Iandefor
August 8th, 2006, 08:14 PM
If Windows works for you, and Linux doesn't, the choice is obvious. Have fun!

But first, let me recommend giving Edgy a go once it hits stable.

23meg
August 8th, 2006, 08:15 PM
Goodbye.

Brunellus
August 8th, 2006, 08:19 PM
I've never had a virus on this computer yet, going 2 years strong, never had to re-install and spyware has been a very little problem. I however had to re-install Ubuntu several times because I had to enable 3d acceleration and messed up my xorg.conf file, honestly 3d drivers should be much easier. Crossover Office is a joke, windows applications running on it are a lot less stable than running them in windows. Never had a problem with WGA, I've actually haven't had many problems with windows at all. I have had problems with linux, say what you want, but when I ran kde it was much less stable than Windows, in my experiences anyways. Honestly, until Ubuntu or another linux distro can do everything Windows can, and be more stable and secure I probably won't switch. My next computer however will be a sub300 one that I'll run Ubuntu. I tried getting my brother to install Ubuntu and told him what he'd have to give up and it was quite a bit. 1. Flash 9 games. 2. Kids games they purchased for their daughter. 3. MSN's official client which they like. 4. Ares, a p2p file transfer program 5. Ulead Video Studio, which they like for video editing. He responded saying "what do I get out of it?" I said no viruses and spyware. He said it wasn't a problem for him for the most part.
you are a Windows user, and Windows-dependent, which is not in itself a bad thing.

The remarkable thing is that you decided to install ubuntu *at all*.

BigDave708
August 8th, 2006, 08:20 PM
Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

carontis
August 8th, 2006, 08:22 PM
:shock: Decision will be yours, but I'm coming from windows and believe me if I say you are making a mistake. After 12 years of windows, I finally found Ubuntu (before it I've used Debian, but on a to old pc) and now only problems I can have is for compatible parts, but as I don't have such a last model of pc, everything it's Ok, and I don't mind for some little error... in windows eveytime I have to start the antivirus, Ad-Aware and others. Do you know how much spending time?
Welcome to Ubuntu and all Linux distros! Many friends of mine after seen it, asked to have it and I installed it for them. Don't use you pc for games, it's native as "calculating machine"; games are better played on XBOX, PS2 etc (things I don't use).

Have a beer and think very well!

conanm4
August 8th, 2006, 08:42 PM
:shock: Decision will be yours, but I'm coming from windows and believe me if I say you are making a mistake. After 12 years of windows, I finally found Ubuntu (before it I've used Debian, but on a to old pc) and now only problems I can have is for compatible parts, but as I don't have such a last model of pc, everything it's Ok, and I don't mind for some little error... in windows eveytime I have to start the antivirus, Ad-Aware and others. Do you know how much spending time?
Welcome to Ubuntu and all Linux distros! Many friends of mine after seen it, asked to have it and I installed it for them. Don't use you pc for games, it's native as "calculating machine"; games are better played on XBOX, PS2 etc (things I don't use).

Have a beer and think very well!

In that sense I shouldn't use it to type up documents either, I'll use a type writer. Funny thing is 2 minutes before posting this I received my shipit discs and I am impressed with the packaging. I'll admit I'm getting tempted again. This would be so much better if I had a cheap second pc.

PatrickMay16
August 8th, 2006, 08:51 PM
I'm tired of getting out of Ubuntu to play my games, which run dog slow under Wine. They also run slow with windows through vmware. I'm tired of logging out of Ubuntu to go use Premiere Pro. I'm tired of my Surround Sound not working. I'm tired of feeling stuck with a bunch of half assed bunch of applications in Ubuntu. Some are well done, Firefox, Audacity, but come on compare iTunes to gtkpod. No contest. I think Ubuntu will be ready for me, just not now. I am going to seed Ubuntu and Kubuntu Dapper on bittorent, but that's all the support I can offer. With that said good bye Ubuntu, but I will check back when my problems are resolved.
Whoa whoa whoa, oh boy. If you wanna leeeave, baby, I won't beg you to stay... aaay. And if you wanna goooo, darlin'... maybe it's better that way.
I'm gonna be strong, I'm gonna be fine, don't worry about this heart of mine. Walk out the door, see if I care, but why not go now?
But don't turn around! 'Cause you're gonna see my heart breakin'.
Don't turn around! I don't want you seein' me cryin'.
Just walk away! It's tearin' me apart that you're leavin'. I'm lettin' you goooo, ooh ooh. And I won't let you knooow... baby. I won't let you knooow, oh.

aysiu
August 8th, 2006, 09:04 PM
Which analogy do you like better?

gaming on console:gaming on pc::word processing on typewriter:word processing on pc

gaming on console:gaming on pc::word processing on ubuntu:word processing on Windows

Oh, and if see me walking by and the tears are in my eyes, look away.

conanm4
August 8th, 2006, 09:09 PM
using speakers on pc:playing games and using better software on pc::.........:using a limited amount of open source software on Ubuntu

MetalMusicAddict
August 8th, 2006, 09:22 PM
It seems as though windows is better suited for you. Thats cool.

I can just never get why people post about leaving. What does it serve?

carlosqueso
August 8th, 2006, 09:23 PM
Vaya con dios!

And if those shipit discs ever tempt you back into Ubuntu, know that we'll be here to help as best we can!

Brunellus
August 8th, 2006, 09:23 PM
It seems as though windows is better suited for you. Thats cool.

I can just never get why people post about leaving. What does it serve?
webforums are well-known drama incubators. Usually, the "I'm leaving" post is a last cry for help.

tkay
August 8th, 2006, 10:00 PM
Hehee, Windows beats linux 100-0 when doing something extremely professional with it (like audio editing, sequencing, photo editing etc.). But then, of course, Windows is not free. Linux is.
Then again, only 1 of 10 of us does those professional duties with computers so it's only them who have to stay with windows. For me the only reason to check out linux (i actually still think that Windows is the best possible OS around) was the fact that i was running a pirated version of XP in my laptop and i thought that it might be possible to run a laptop that's used mainly on surfing also on Linux that is totally free of charge. Yes, there's a lot of work (still a bit too much for masses) to get it up running nicely and to be a full working member of my LAN (with a legal XP this time) but with a little fiddling i've managed to get it to behave quite well (even the wlan setup succeeded quite well). And yes, it cost's nothing..

If you have to leave linux/ubuntu now, it's ok. It's just not ready for you yet. Check back later because one day it will be.

Artificial Intelligence
August 8th, 2006, 10:11 PM
Just a remember to people replying to this thread. Please play nice.

Thanks.

carontis
August 8th, 2006, 11:07 PM
Mmmmhh, tkay: I don't really think windows (and I come from it) it's better than Linux. I have a friend working on Unix machine, and believe me: he can do everything, but are about 20 years of experience!
I think that Linux, coming from Unix, should be better and for make it better we all should slow down a little. In this way it's possible having care of inside software (the OS in itself) and find more bugs to correct.

Klaidas
August 8th, 2006, 11:21 PM
I'm tired of getting out of Ubuntu to play my games, which run dog slow under Wine. They also run slow with windows through vmware. I'm tired of logging out of Ubuntu to go use Premiere Pro. I'm tired of my Surround Sound not working. I'm tired of feeling stuck with a bunch of half assed bunch of applications in Ubuntu. Some are well done, Firefox, Audacity, but come on compare iTunes to gtkpod. No contest. I think Ubuntu will be ready for me, just not now. I am going to seed Ubuntu and Kubuntu Dapper on bittorent, but that's all the support I can offer. With that said good bye Ubuntu, but I will check back when my problems are resolved.

There's a thing called dual booting.

Biltong (Dee)
August 8th, 2006, 11:24 PM
There's a thing called dual booting.

There is indeed. The best of both worlds in one box. :p

Donshyoku
August 8th, 2006, 11:32 PM
If you want to leave Ubuntu, that is fine. If you aren't willing to have your problems worked out, then why the public message?

Freud would be really excited to take on this case! :p

nalmeth
August 9th, 2006, 01:37 AM
GTKpod isn't supposed to be a replacement for itunes. It's supposed to be used to sync your Ipod. :confused:

Happy Trails

forrestcupp
August 9th, 2006, 02:12 AM
see you in a month or two

Tarvok
August 9th, 2006, 03:08 AM
I agree that the desktop environments available to Linux users are easily comparable to those available to users of other operating systems.

The issue of Linux, really, is specialty software. Between the ease of install for most hardware, the reams of excelent free software, and the community spirit of users (particularly for Ubuntu :D ), for the average joe, Linux is not only as good, but quite superior for home use. However, Average Joe with a Desk Job is going to want to use the same thing at home that he uses at work. Given there is more user friendly specialty software available for Windows than Linux these days, that is usually going to be Windows, unless he's a server admin, which would make him someone other than Average Joe.

Furthermore, Average Joe has a kid, who is named Average Little Joey, who wants to play all the newest games on his computer. Outside the realm of true geeks who are willing to tinker endlessly to get a game to so much as run (people other than Average Joey), let alone perform (Average Joey will tinker for that), that also means Windows.

Installed userbase is growing for this platform, however. It's only a matter of time before Microsoft's lead in gaming is limited to the XBox franchise, Windows getting only the occasional port (like the Mac), while Linux becomes the premier games platform. Maybe specialty productivity software (all those little business apps with client bases measurable in the thousands, ie. those other than office suites) will get there first. Who knows. But it seems that there is nothing Microsoft can do that the Linux Community (both independend open-sourcers and commercial dev houses combined) can't do better, so the future is bright.

Outside the network value (which is growing for Linux in general), is there any reason to go with Microsoft's latest offering over Linux?

BarfBag
August 9th, 2006, 03:10 AM
Don't let the door hit you on your way out.

blastus
August 9th, 2006, 03:38 AM
I'm tired of getting out of Ubuntu to play my games, which run dog slow under Wine. They also run slow with windows through vmware. I'm tired of logging out of Ubuntu to go use Premiere Pro. I'm tired of my Surround Sound not working. I'm tired of feeling stuck with a bunch of half assed bunch of applications in Ubuntu. Some are well done, Firefox, Audacity, but come on compare iTunes to gtkpod. No contest. I think Ubuntu will be ready for me, just not now. I am going to seed Ubuntu and Kubuntu Dapper on bittorent, but that's all the support I can offer. With that said good bye Ubuntu, but I will check back when my problems are resolved.

If you want to migrate to Linux, you have to be willing to change. If you don't want to change your ways and aren't willing to multi-boot (say for games and the odd stubborn Windows application that you aren't willing to dump or can't because you need it for work) then Linux isn't for you. For that matter nothing but Windows will ever *work* for you.

The first step is to wean yourself off of Windows-only applications. Depending on your requirements (you must make a fine line between your wants and your needs), you may have to make some sacrifices. This is where most people fail because not only are they not willing to change, but they expect Linux applications to have the exact same functionality and behave in exactly the same way as Windows applications. It simply doesn't work that way.

jimrz
August 9th, 2006, 03:59 AM
bueno bye

djsroknrol
August 9th, 2006, 04:15 AM
So sorry it didn't work out, but to each his own...good luck...

Christmas
August 9th, 2006, 04:49 AM
Maybe the guy was reffering to applications, not how the interface looks like. And if it is so, he's kind of right because both GNOME and KDE still need improvements in apps and more GUI apps. Also more support from hardware companies. The article looks pretty objective from what I could observe.

prizrak
August 9th, 2006, 02:19 PM
Outside the network value (which is growing for Linux in general), is there any reason to go with Microsoft's latest offering over Linux?

If I went for Windows on this computer I would have a button that blinks everytime I get e-mail. That's pretty damn significant to me ;)
Seriously tho, out of the box Tablet support sux on Ubuntu.

PapaWiskas
August 9th, 2006, 04:03 PM
I was a die hard windows addict, hardcore, always on my PC, either playing games or fixing it because it was windows.

I have been using Ubuntu since December after I put a new hard drive in my laptop, Ubuntu and only Ubuntu.

I had to learn to adapt, spend countless hours reading and tinkering, finding all the programs or I should say finding replacement programs in Ubuntu that I used to use in Windows.

It took awhile, but I was determined not to go back, and yes it has taken some time, and I am still learning what I can and cant do yet. But I know new things are on the horizon, new programs come out everyday, new fixes and patches. One of the most interesting things that has happened in my household is my wife has quietly watched me go about all this Linux/Ubuntu business thinking that it would not work out, that I would be limited or not able to do all the things I used to do. She now sees 8 months later, it does work. And since we are close to buying a new PC, she wants to drop windows and run Kubuntu ( I am an XFCE/Fluxbox/Ubuntu person, but hey I love her ).

Making constructive posts about what didnt work or suggestions on how to make Linux more "user friendly" would be well received by me. To each his own I guess, choice is beautiful, but to be honest with you all, I am really sick of the "Good-Bye" posts, it's pointless and lame, and nothing more than a plea for attention.

graabein
August 9th, 2006, 04:06 PM
Au revoir!



Edit: Why is everyone (two people) singing in this thread? Is it Walk On By by Isaac Hayes? Good song. Had to put it on now.


If you see me walking down the street
And I start to cry each time we meet
Walk on by, walk on by
Make believe that you don't see the tears
Oh just let me grieve
In private 'cause each time I see you
I break down and cry
Oh baby, walk on by

Mmm
I just can't get over losing you
So if I seem broken in two
Please walk on by, walk on by
Foolish pride is all that I have left
So let me hide
The tears and the sadness you gave me
You put the hurt on

DoctorMO
August 9th, 2006, 04:28 PM
Missing programs:

Please deposit 300k in my bank account in the south seas and I will arrange for a development team to come by your house and develop a movie editing application around your very computer.

No? don't have several thousand pounds to spare? Then you better get good at getting in with the developers of the projects most likly to become the next big windows replacement application.

If you don't help then you don't really deserve to complain. and I have no sympathy.

aysiu
August 9th, 2006, 04:35 PM
Making constructive posts about what didnt work or suggestions on how to make Linux more "user friendly" would be well received by me. I agree: What's better than whining on the forums? ... making a difference (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=78741)
To each his own I guess, choice is beautiful, but to be honest with you all, I am really sick of the "Good-Bye" posts, it's pointless and lame, and nothing more than a plea for attention. Well, the plea works. Threads like these get plenty of views and replies.

Brunellus
August 9th, 2006, 04:39 PM
Well, the plea works. Threads like these get plenty of views and replies.

I think every one of these threads becomes a chance for the community to hang together a little bit.

Biltong (Dee)
August 9th, 2006, 05:08 PM
...or hang the poster?

conanm4
August 9th, 2006, 05:43 PM
If you want to leave Ubuntu, that is fine. If you aren't willing to have your problems worked out, then why the public message?

Freud would be really excited to take on this case! :p

As I was saying my main problem is a hardware problem if no one can help me getting 5.1 surround sound to work i'm not going to use Ubuntu.

tagra123
August 9th, 2006, 06:04 PM
You'll be back. There had to be a reason you installed it in the first place.

I do agree that games do run better in Windows - because they were made to be run in Windows.

More developers will catch on that linux is growing.:D As a programmer windows is locking down their systems to a point where programming for windows is becomming more difficult. I still develop software for windows because that is where the market is but you better believe that my programming is now geared in the direction of portibility.

Stability:

My ubuntu desktop has been up for 13 weeks straight without being rebooted - thanks to the backup power during outages, but I never get more than 2 to 3 days from any windows version without a reboot. For that matter the longest I was ever able to keep windows up without starting fron scratch was about 8 months ( the complete reinstall).:confused:

Some thing about linux are difficult but once working it doesn't automatically break. It would be nice if a graphic card could be changed without having to manually reconfigure XORG but I imagine something automatic is in development.

When I read through the forums about others problem and questions asked. Even when given step-by-step instructions --some people just choose not to follow them.:?:

conanm4
August 9th, 2006, 06:15 PM
You'll be back. There had to be a reason you installed it in the first place.

I do agree that games do run better in Windows - because they were made to be run in Windows.

More developers will catch on that linux is growing.:D As a programmer windows is locking down their systems to a point where programming for windows is becomming more difficult. I still develop software for windows because that is where the market is but you better believe that my programming is now geared in the direction of portibility.

Stability:

My ubuntu desktop has been up for 13 weeks straight without being rebooted - thanks to the backup power during outages, but I never get more than 2 to 3 days from any windows version without a reboot. For that matter the longest I was ever able to keep windows up without starting fron scratch was about 8 months ( the complete reinstall).:confused:

Some thing about linux are difficult but once working it doesn't automatically break. It would be nice if a graphic card could be changed without having to manually reconfigure XORG but I imagine something automatic is in development.

When I read through the forums about others problem and questions asked. Even when given step-by-step instructions --some people just choose not to follow them.:?:

Alright I guess you can't read, i'm not using Ubuntu until I can get all my speakers working. I didn't use Ubuntu because I don't like Windows, I used it because I unlike most people like learning new things. Now if the product I am trying to learn isn't going to be able to suit my needs or I should say my hardware i'm not going to use it. Everyone says oh it's not ubuntu's fault the driver isn't available blah blah blah. If my hardware won't work i'm not going to use Ubuntu then.

mojoman
August 9th, 2006, 06:17 PM
My ubuntu desktop has been up for 13 weeks straight without being rebooted - thanks to the backup power during outages, but I never get more than 2 to 3 days from any windows version without a reboot.

Hear hear! I istalled Ubuntu on a server I have at home after getting tired on rebooting my windows server. I figured that all the fixing and tweaking would make me learn Linux and as I could use the GUI to help me out in the beginning I choose the desktop variant.

Well, that didn't work at all! The damned thing was so stable that I didn't have to reboot it or even look ever! It ran like clockwork. After two months without as much as a glitch I decided to install Ubuntu on my laptop as well, figuring that the only possibility to learn Linux is to have it on a machine I work with regularly. (And the problems I've been having with my laptop graphic card has taught me ample but that's another story...)

Tomosaur
August 9th, 2006, 06:19 PM
Alright I guess you can't read, i'm not using Ubuntu until I can get all my speakers working. I didn't use Ubuntu because I don't like Windows, I used it because I unlike most people like learning new things. Now if the product I am trying to learn isn't going to be able to suit my needs or I should say my hardware i'm not going to use it. Everyone says oh it's not ubuntu's fault the driver isn't available blah blah blah. If my hardware won't work i'm not going to use Ubuntu then.

What exactly is the issue with your speakers? I assume this is a surround sound issue?

conanm4
August 9th, 2006, 06:22 PM
What exactly is the issue with your speakers? I assume this is a surround sound issue?

Only 2 of my speakers are working. I asked already in this forum and was responded with "sorry, no fix yet."

Artificial Intelligence
August 9th, 2006, 07:14 PM
Only 2 of my speakers are working. I asked already in this forum and was responded with "sorry, no fix yet."

Well if there's no fix yet. You might check future release to see if it's fixed. (or perhaps another distro).
What it's important is that you use what works for you :KS

chadk
August 9th, 2006, 07:28 PM
Man, does anyone have a link to that article about why forums suck? He basically sums up EVERY single kind of post possible and why they're pointless. Even this one. There's the troll, know-it-all, intellectual, farewell post, etc It was a good read.

Dragonbite
August 9th, 2006, 07:59 PM
Funny how instead of just dissappearing, somebody has to announce "Hey, I'm leaving?!!" and then stick around and read people's replies.

If you want something that walks like a duck, swims like a duck and quack like a duck then get a duck! Don't try to make a swan into a duck.

Sweet Spot
August 9th, 2006, 08:34 PM
As a total newb to this forum and to Linux Ubuntu etc, I think I can understand why the OP has been seen as being desperate for attention with the "good bye" thread. It definitely is out of despair, but for a reason which no one has mentioned, I think. It's in my belief, that he's hoping that this will encourage "someone", with the right answers, to come in and save the day.

Almost as if no one has bothered to answer his questions with answers and solutions that he's been looking for, purposely, and this will all of a sudden produce the results that he was looking for all along. This isn't meant as any offense to the OP, it's just that I sometimes know how he feels, as trying to get things to work in Kubuntu is a big pain in the ***, compared to how things just work as was intended, in Windows.

The thing that aggitates me a bit about Ubuntu in general, is how so many options are presented, or different programs rather, which make you feel that if so many are available, they should automatically work without having to manipulate or configure things which you've never seen before. Ubuntu being my first foray into the world of Linux (besides trying distros years ago of RH and such), is actually quite understandable and friendly to me, but it's not yet up to the level of my really amateur expectations.

I guess I was hoping for more of a tidy ship, which it almost is, and I am willing to work for my end results, but sometimes it's just a bit intimidating when all you're really trying to do, is boot up and work, but you can't because you have to keep up with all the loose ends. I've been trying to tie up loose ends since day 1 :-k

But a general solution of dual booting is extremely wise IMO. I've got my Win partition should I really need it. I've really tried to not go back to Win, and have been successful, but mostly becuase I haven't solved how to do everything I know I CAN, in Kubuntu. Once I get totally comfortable in Kububtu, I'll simply be using Win to produce and edit music.

My 2 pence.

forrestcupp
August 9th, 2006, 08:44 PM
If you wanted answers, why didn't you ask, instead of threatening to leave? That's not how you are going to get people to help you; we don't care if you leave or not. It's your right to do whatever you want with your computer.

conanm4
August 9th, 2006, 09:09 PM
Actually I am probably gonna still leave I just find it funny how people made false accusations of how I supposedly hate Windows. Other claims of me not wanting to learn, i'm sorry but if the hardware won't work i'm not going to use it. Another thing is I expected everyone to be like "that's cool see you when it gets better" but no had to respond in negative ways. Honestly this forum blows, if I do go back to linux i'm heading to linuxquestions.org. When I asked for help people tried to help within the hour, here I waited 3 days to get a "i'm having the same problem, no fix yet." Atleast on linuxquestions they attempted to help. With that said good bye for real.

aysiu
August 9th, 2006, 09:18 PM
Honestly this forum blows, if I do go back to linux i'm heading to linuxquestions.org. No offense, but you won't be missed.

Iandefor
August 9th, 2006, 09:20 PM
*Waves*

Byeeeee!

cstudent
August 9th, 2006, 09:22 PM
You believe in long goodbyes.


Later dude.