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Fittersman
May 7th, 2007, 03:59 PM
I just been wondering what other users have found that windows is able to do that linux (more specifically ubuntu) cant do...

so far the only thing i have found that i cant do anymore is gaming and a few online videos dont work sometimes

also, add anything to the list that makes one better or worse than the other, such as linux being practically virus free

Arathorn
May 7th, 2007, 04:10 PM
I think gaming is the most important for a lot of people. Also a lot of professionals miss Photoshop.

DoctorMO
May 7th, 2007, 04:11 PM
those videos you should copy the addresses for them and use mplayer at the command prompt, it's more likely to tell you what the problem is, more than not a missing dll or problematic codec.


I think gaming is the most important for a lot of people. Also a lot of professionals miss Photoshop.

I don't think gaming is that important to most people, only the very loud and the early adopters. once we're past this phase you'll find most new users don't play games or find the games available in Linux to be superior in the types of games they play (puzzle games etc)

Praill
May 7th, 2007, 04:15 PM
Ya, with the mplayer-mozilla plugin and flash-mozilla plugin you should be able to stream all videos on any page.

Gaming is def a big issue. The people at wine and crossover make some of the larger titles and older games available, but its by no means a reasonable alternative... yet.


The only thing i've found to date is my modem. Winmodems simply wont work with linux, end of story. Some people have had limited success with linuxants drivers but they didnt work for me.

Photoshop? Nah theres gimp.


Another thing.. there might be some scanners that wont work with ubuntu. But I think feistys support is better in this department.

Fittersman
May 7th, 2007, 04:18 PM
Ya, with the mplayer-mozilla plugin and flash-mozilla plugin you should be able to stream all videos on any page.

Gaming is def a big issue. The people at wine and crossover make some of the larger titles and older games available, but its by no means a reasonable alternative... yet.


The only thing i've found to date is my modem. Winmodems simply wont work with linux, end of story. Some people have had limited success with linuxants drivers but they didnt work for me.

Photoshop? Nah theres gimp.


Another thing.. there might be some scanners that wont work with ubuntu. But I think feistys support is better in this department.

o yeah, i forgot about the winmodems, i tried so hard to get mine to work on here with no avail, thankfully my dad got sick of us being on the internet all the time (he couldnt use the phone) so he got highspeed :D

and about the videos, there are only a few that dont work, the major sites like youtube and stuff like that all work, its just some of the lesser known sites (cant recall any at the moment, like i said, very few) that have videos that dont work.

Arathorn
May 7th, 2007, 04:21 PM
or find the games available in Linux to be superior in the types of games they play (puzzle games etc)
Most people will prefer shooters and racing games to puzzle games. ;)
And ask an professional about The Gimp, I doubt you'll hear many positive reactions (off course it works perfectly well for what I and most users do with their graphics software).

Hardware has never been a problem for me with Linux, in fact, I like the way Kubuntu deals with hardware a lot better then Windows XP.

happy-and-lost
May 7th, 2007, 04:22 PM
It's not that it can't do certain things, it's just that those certain things weren't written to be run under the Linux kernel, they were written specifically for Win32.

Fittersman
May 7th, 2007, 04:25 PM
It's not that it can't do certain things, it's just that those certain things weren't written to be run under the Linux kernel, they were written specifically for Win32.

ok, they what things werent written to work under the linux kernel? :D

DoctorMO
May 7th, 2007, 04:33 PM
Most people will prefer shooters and racing games to puzzle games.

No they don't. unless your definition of 'most people' is 'most white, male, under 25 and over 13s' which mine isn't and most PEOPLE I know of all kinds like to play puzzle, platform, logic, and various other games and don't like to play either racing or shoot 'em ups.

aysiu
May 7th, 2007, 04:34 PM
Most people will prefer shooters and racing games to puzzle games. ;) I beg to differ:
http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntucat/gaining-perspective-on-pc-gaming/

Praill
May 7th, 2007, 04:35 PM
... And ask an professional about The Gimp...
I cant professionally speak on this because Im not a professional. The general consensus I get from those who are is this:
"Anything you can do with Photoshop, you can do with GIMP. But like all things in the linux world, its more difficult"
That always makes me laugh.

I think most graphics people are probably frustrated with gimp because its hard to configure and install in windows. I've tried it and its a nightmare compared to photoshops give-me-1000s-of-dollars-and-it-will-just-work thing theyve got going on.

If it WAS a pro, I would deal with gimp though, and save my money.

OffHand
May 7th, 2007, 04:52 PM
those videos you should copy the addresses for them and use mplayer at the command prompt, it's more likely to tell you what the problem is, more than not a missing dll or problematic codec.



I don't think gaming is that important to most people, only the very loud and the early adopters. once we're past this phase you'll find most new users don't play games or find the games available in Linux to be superior in the types of games they play (puzzle games etc)

Which planet are you from?

tiakun
May 7th, 2007, 04:53 PM
Pretty much nothing IMHO.
However, you'll have some headache trying to make some specific thing working on GNU/Linux.
There should be GUI for everything on Linux because GUI describe itself clearly, while command-line is hard to understand and follow.

OffHand
May 7th, 2007, 04:53 PM
I cant professionally speak on this because Im not a professional. The general consensus I get from those who are is this:
"Anything you can do with Photoshop, you can do with GIMP. But like all things in the linux world, its more difficult"
That always makes me laugh.

I think most graphics people are probably frustrated with gimp because its hard to configure and install in windows. I've tried it and its a nightmare compared to photoshops give-me-1000s-of-dollars-and-it-will-just-work thing theyve got going on.

If it WAS a pro, I would deal with gimp though, and save my money.

If you were a pro you would have bought and used Photoshop.

slimdog360
May 7th, 2007, 04:57 PM
I beg to differ:
http://www.psychocats.net/essays/gamingperspective

No offense asyiu but Im sure I am a much bigger geek then you and i can tell you as a fact that more gaming people would rather play a fps or a racing game then a puzzle game. I wouldn't count the mums and dads out there who play solitaire every now and again as gamers.

Praill
May 7th, 2007, 04:58 PM
If you were a pro you would have bought and used Photoshop.
Ya probably while I was going through school and what-not, youre right.
But GIMP would def interest me.

phidia
May 7th, 2007, 05:00 PM
fragment your drive.

aysiu
May 7th, 2007, 05:00 PM
No offense asyiu but Im sure I am a much bigger geek then you and i can tell you as a fact that more gaming people would rather play a fps or a racing game then a puzzle game. I wouldn't count the mums and dads out there who play solitaire every now and again as gamers.
I was responding to this statement:
Most people will prefer shooters and racing games to puzzle games. not this one
Most gamers will prefer shooters and racing games to puzzle games.

DoctorMO
May 7th, 2007, 05:08 PM
Which planet are you from?

the planet with 97% of all the other 'non gamers' who I'd rather spend time making software for. as a programmer I'd rather build a nice puzzle game that 3 million people enjoy than a shoot em up that 3 thousand could enjoy. please read aysiu's link, we ain't making this up your just wrong about gamers and games in general.

nodorizzi
May 7th, 2007, 05:11 PM
print to my lexmark printer.

Praill
May 7th, 2007, 05:11 PM
the planet with 97% of all the other 'non gamers' who I'd rather spend time making software for. as a programmer I'd rather build a nice puzzle game that 3 million people enjoy than a shoot em up that 3 thousand could enjoy. please read aysiu's link, we ain't making this up your just wrong about gamers and games in general.

How about WoW? 9 million subscribers and counting. Its loosely supported with wine so it might not be pertinent. But I think the gaming community is much bigger than you credit.

jcconnor
May 7th, 2007, 05:13 PM
Here's my list in no particular order:

1) Viruses - well, not techincally true, I know, but significantly less
2) Pre-installed non-fully functioning bloatware on new machines (as opposed to the fully functioning bloatware)
3) Spyware - see #1, I know, I know
4) Really well designed and functioning video editing - Sony Vegas, etc. Heck, I would even settle for a package like Pinnacle Studio. And I'm talking fully functioning - fully functioning and more than a wipe and fade transitions, integrated title cards and scrolling titles, somewhat familiar interface
5) Pseudo-clean installation program - ./configure, make, make install (or checkinstall) is not it.

I'll stop there.

Wiebelhaus
May 7th, 2007, 05:16 PM
I think gaming is the most important for a lot of people. Also a lot of professionals miss Photoshop.

/agree.

b0ng0
May 7th, 2007, 05:18 PM
Use my midi keyboard with Reason and use Sonicstage to put music on my walkman. These are the main reasons I still use Windows, otherwise I just use ubuntu for day to day stuff.

beercz
May 7th, 2007, 05:22 PM
To answer the OP's question:

AutoCAD;
Create Flash animations;
Voice/web cam chat over Instant Messaging applications & Skype;
Use specialist written commercial software only available in Windows (e.g. engineering software that civil/structural engineering staff use at work - we use it a lot)
Business Accounting software;

And I would bet there are loads of other examples too. These are ones I have come across in my experience.

deanlinkous
May 7th, 2007, 05:25 PM
Who cares....If I wanted to do windows *things* I would use windows. As it is, I only care to do Linux things and the number of things linux can do that windows cannot is a better discussion IMO.

Windows can suck a lot harder than linux - that is one. :D

tikal26
May 7th, 2007, 05:27 PM
to me is no that windows can do more is jut that it can run more porgrams (Rhino, Modo, AutoCAD, Photoshop) but for the average users I would say that linux is better

beercz
May 7th, 2007, 05:28 PM
Who cares....
I do, I have to support those infernal machines that run Windows only applications!!!

If I was able, I would have all the machines running ubuntu.

Fittersman
May 7th, 2007, 05:28 PM
Who cares....If I wanted to do windows *things* I would use windows. As it is, I only care to do Linux things and the number of things linux can do that windows cannot is a better discussion IMO.

Windows can suck a lot harder than linux - that is one. :D

well, the reason for this is when i tell someone they should just use ubuntu (because they are complaining about viruses or something) they always ask "well, if i switch what wont i be able to do?", so im trying to get any answers that i dont already know, and so far ive gotten quite a few :D

aysiu
May 7th, 2007, 05:35 PM
How about WoW? 9 million subscribers and counting. Its loosely supported with wine so it might not be pertinent. But I think the gaming community is much bigger than you credit.
Read the link I posted earlier.

mech7
May 7th, 2007, 05:40 PM
Windows can run much more software which linux can't

WinterWeaver
May 7th, 2007, 05:49 PM
Mentally enslave millions of people into thinking there is only one way to be connected to Information etc.

However, even Linux distributions could be capable of this, although it will be quite difficult with such an awesome and free thinking community.

YaY Ubuntu!

deanlinkous
May 7th, 2007, 05:51 PM
well, the reason for this is when i tell someone they should just use ubuntu (because they are complaining about viruses or something) they always ask "well, if i switch what wont i be able to do?", so im trying to get any answers that i dont already know, and so far ive gotten quite a few :D
Man, don't get those people to switch. I make a good living *fixing* those systems so they can *break* them again when they get home. Save the Dean - keep people using windows. :D

Fittersman
May 7th, 2007, 05:58 PM
Man, don't get those people to switch. I make a good living *fixing* those systems so they can *break* them again when they get home. Save the Dean - keep people using windows. :D

lol, sounds like you give your customers good customer support there, let em keep breaking the machine instead of giving a solution ;)

Henry Rayker
May 7th, 2007, 06:03 PM
How about WoW? 9 million subscribers and counting. Its loosely supported with wine so it might not be pertinent. But I think the gaming community is much bigger than you credit.

By that figure, roughly 1/1000 people plays WoW...(really, 1.5/1000 or about .15%); if we restrict that to the number of people who use the internet, you can raise that to about .9%...the statements have been that 3% of the population are gamers...it sounds about accurate..

Your statistics are incredibly flawed.
No offense asyiu but Im sure I am a much bigger geek then you and i can tell you as a fact that more gaming people would rather play a fps or a racing game then a puzzle game. I wouldn't count the mums and dads out there who play solitaire every now and again as gamers. You're just flubbing your numbers there. You are excluding a LARGE portion of the people who play games; of all people who play games (yes, even mums and dads) the number of dedicated fps/racing games is pretty low. Given that the number of people who play games in general are fairly low, you're pretty much screwed.

On topic, though, One major thing Windows can do that linux can't is get away with screwing up. If M$ just stops booting, most people will say, "Hey, guess I should say 'screw my data!' it's time to reformat!!" but if a linux installation goes bust the day it's installed, the forums will be plagued with "ZOMG WTF ur operating systemz borkd my compy! I cant us da intarwebxz! Despite the fact that I obviously installed this consciously and of my own will, you are all to blame for the fact that I didn't RTFM"

OffHand
May 7th, 2007, 06:05 PM
Read the link I posted earlier.

Your text and numbers didn't convince me and you conclusion lacked objectivity imo.

(note: I am no die hard gaming freak - I hardly even play games anymore, but the people I know that do play games do not fit your gamers profile)

Check the best selling games - October 2006 (according IGN): http://pc.ign.com/articles/746/746038p1.html

EdThaSlayer
May 7th, 2007, 06:09 PM
Windows can play games using directx 9 really well. Also, with Windows your ATI graphics card actually DOES something!

aysiu
May 7th, 2007, 06:11 PM
Your text and numbers didn't convince me and you conclusion lacked objectivity imo.

(note: I am no die hard gaming freak - I hardly even play games anymore, but the people I know that do play games do not fit your gamers profile)
And I used real studies, and you didn't. I think the one lacking objectivity here is you.

Please cite exactly what I got wrong and dissect it logically. If you just say "You're wrong" or "you didn't convince me" then I have nothing to worry about when you doubt my credibility.

OffHand
May 7th, 2007, 06:17 PM
And I used real studies, and you didn't. I think the one lacking objectivity here is you.

Please cite exactly what I got wrong and dissect it logically. If you just say "You're wrong" or "you didn't convince me" then I have nothing to worry about when you doubt my credibility.

I posted a link to the best selling games of October 2006 (sorry, I edited my post to put that in). I can probably find or compose a list of whole 2006 too, but I don't think we need that. I actually think that sales numbers say a lot more than 'studies'.

aysiu
May 7th, 2007, 06:17 PM
Your text and numbers didn't convince me and you conclusion lacked objectivity imo. And what does your opinion matter in this situation? We're talking about numbers. And I didn't pull those numbers out of nowhere. They're from real studies.


(note: I am no die hard gaming freak - I hardly even play games anymore, but the people I know that do play games do not fit your gamers profile) The key phrase here is the people I know that do play games. Most people don't play the kinds of games you're talking about.


Check the best selling games - October 2006 (according IGN): http://pc.ign.com/articles/746/746038p1.html I'm sorry but what's the point of that link? You're listing the top selling PC games. So what? How does that compare to the number of console games? How does that compare to the number of people playing Solitaire or Tetris?

I'm comparing PC gaming to console gaming and silly built-in games. You're comparing PC games to other PC games. What does that prove?

OffHand
May 7th, 2007, 06:26 PM
And what does your opinion matter in this situation? We're talking about numbers. And I didn't pull those numbers out of nowhere. They're from real studies.
I didn't either: I didn't even compose the list.


The key phrase here is the people I know that do play games. Most people don't play the kinds of games you're talking about.
I am 29, I have a very busy social and working life. I meet a lot of different people. I value my own experience.


I'm sorry but what's the point of that link? You're listing the top selling PC games. So what? How does that compare to the number of console games?
I did not take console games into consideration. Hence the OP's question: "What can Windows do that Linux can't"


I'm comparing PC gaming to console gaming and silly built-in games. You're comparing PC games to other PC games. What does that prove? See my previous comment.

Fittersman
May 7th, 2007, 06:28 PM
Windows can play games using directx 9 really well. Also, with Windows your ATI graphics card actually DOES something!

i got my ATI card to work... finally :D (well except it wont clearly output to the tv, unless by upgrading to 7.04 they fixed that, havent checked yet)

deanlinkous
May 7th, 2007, 06:28 PM
lol, sounds like you give your customers good customer support there, let em keep breaking the machine instead of giving a solution ;)
A clean system is free of any problems. If the problem is actually THEM and they swear they didn't do it...well then it must of been magic and that will be $40, thank you, have a nice day, and come again...next month! :)

Linux isn't a solution for these people, they will break it somehow too, just in a different way. Or they will blame me for talking them into linux.

Fittersman
May 7th, 2007, 06:31 PM
A clean system is free of any problems. If the problem is actually THEM and they swear they didn't do it...well then it must of been magic and that will be $40, thank you, have a nice day, and come again...next month! :)

Linux isn't a solution for these people, they will break it somehow too, just in a different way. Or they will blame me for talking them into linux.

lol, that is very true

$40? thats pretty good, my dad paid these guys in the city $90 x3 because they didnt fix it the first time, or the second time... then i decided to fix it my self one day (he didnt trust me to fix it for some reason...), now hes happy that i fixed it and i hope he learned his lesson, lol

Praill
May 7th, 2007, 06:33 PM
Im pretty sure I read somewhere that video games have surpased (or come close to) other media formats such as music or movies. And they werent talking about millions lining up for the newest solitare.
I dont have the exact citation but youre welcome to come over and scour my stack of newspapers :)

Have you seen the mass hysteria over the new Wii? Or Halo 2?
Granted those are console games, and were talking PC... but most console games are avial on the PC.

I realize more people might play little puzzle games and whatever. But the point is that serious gaming is a huge industry and is growing every day. Furthermore, the point is that a LARGE number of people suffer choosing to use linux in this regard. And more importantly, a larger number of people turn away from linux because of it.

forrestcupp
May 7th, 2007, 06:34 PM
Ok. So maybe gaming isn't important to a lot of people. And the people that it isn't important to are pretty vocal about the fact that it shouldn't be important. But the fact is that gaming is important to a lot of people (maybe not most). So just because certain people don't care about gaming, does that mean that it shouldn't be important at all. I personally don't give a squat about samba. Does that mean that no one should put any effort into samba? No, because there are people that it matters to. I'm sure a lot more of the 93% base of Windows users would switch to Linux if there were better game support.

About the Gimp. The Gimp is awesome. But sometimes a professional can't just cope with it. The cruddy user interface isn't the only obstacle. The lack of cmyk support is a major one for pros. I haven't tried it, but maybe Cinepaint would be a good option.

ticopelp
May 7th, 2007, 06:42 PM
On topic, though, One major thing Windows can do that linux can't is get away with screwing up. If M$ just stops booting, most people will say, "Hey, guess I should say 'screw my data!' it's time to reformat!!" but if a linux installation goes bust the day it's installed, the forums will be plagued with "ZOMG WTF ur operating systemz borkd my compy! I cant us da intarwebxz! Despite the fact that I obviously installed this consciously and of my own will, you are all to blame for the fact that I didn't RTFM"

Heh, quoted for truth.

WinterWeaver
May 7th, 2007, 06:44 PM
I posted a link to the best selling games of October 2006 (sorry, I edited my post to put that in). I can probably find or compose a list of whole 2006 too, but I don't think we need that. I actually think that sales numbers say a lot more than 'studies'.

Sorry, but I do not agree. You cannot compare game sales to people that play games, not to mention that there are hundreds of little extra games which is released on all these systems, not to mention all the Flash Games, which can be played online for free.


did not take console games into consideration. Hence the OP's question: "What can Windows do that Linux can't"

Lets humor you and suppose that games only exist on a PC platform, again... these are only the top Selling Games... Find a list of the Most Played games, and even most downloaded games, and we can continue the debate. At the moment you are grasping at the air trying to prove your point.

mech7
May 7th, 2007, 06:45 PM
About the Gimp. The Gimp is awesome. But sometimes a professional can't just cope with it. The cruddy user interface isn't the only obstacle. The lack of cmyk support is a major one for pros. I haven't tried it, but maybe Cinepaint would be a good option.

Although cinepaint has some nice features and is used in large productions with movies, it has basically the same crummy interface that the gimp has.

deanlinkous
May 7th, 2007, 06:49 PM
On topic, though, One major thing Windows can do that linux can't is get away with screwing up. If M$ just stops booting, most people will say, "Hey, guess I should say 'screw my data!' it's time to reformat!!" but if a linux installation goes bust the day it's installed, the forums will be plagued with "ZOMG WTF ur operating systemz borkd my compy! I cant us da intarwebxz! Despite the fact that I obviously installed this consciously and of my own will, you are all to blame for the fact that I didn't RTFM"
Exactly! If people do not have a choice but are stuck with one OS selection then you have to live with what it does or doesn't do. They have to settle for it. They **** and moan but have to realize they do not have a choice. But when you introduce a choice then people automatically go into "grass is always greener" mode, always thinking that one is better than the other in some way or another and they cant be happy because there are pros/cons to both but all they can ever see is the cons of whichever they are using.

DoctorMO
May 7th, 2007, 07:00 PM
I realize more people might play little puzzle games and whatever. But the point is that serious gaming is a huge industry and is growing every day. Furthermore, the point is that a LARGE number of people suffer choosing to use linux in this regard. And more importantly, a larger number of people turn away from linux because of it.

It seems that serious gamers are more likely to hear about and try linux than normal people, thus it might be more important for early adopters such as yourself but for the bulk of people this simply isn't true. there is also nothing we can do about it so if you want windows games, go buy windows and stop bothering these forums; such futile arguments are counter-productive since I don't know a single programmer that has read one of these daft threads and been inspired to write the next big linux game shoot em up.

karellen
May 7th, 2007, 07:05 PM
I don't care so much about gaming, I haven't played a game for ages (except some chess - chessmaster and gnuchess is just fine in linux for this). for me the things that windows (in fact not windows but the software ecosystem build around it) can do and linux (still) can't are:
* large file transfer - as yahoo mess can;
* webcam support;
* all the nice formatting/features and presentations/spreadsheets of office;
* the ability to upload pictures from picasa directly to the web album;
* google talk with voice support;
* google desktop/yahoo widgets;
that's what first came into my mind...
these are most of the reasons I dual-boot. maybe are childish, maybe are not relevant for someone else, I don't care. just my own little opinion :)

Praill
May 7th, 2007, 07:08 PM
It seems that serious gamers are more likely to hear about and try linux than normal people, thus it might be more important for early adopters such as yourself but for the bulk of people this simply isn't true. there is also nothing we can do about it so if you want windows games, go buy windows and stop bothering these forums; such futile arguments are counter-productive since I don't know a single programmer that has read one of these daft threads and been inspired to write the next big linux game shoot em up.

The point of my argument wasnt to inspire programmers to write games... it was to dispute the statement that most people dont care about computer gaming so it's unimportant. The computer gaming industry is enormous. And it will be/is one of microsofts last legs they have to stand on. Older folks will dissagree, but people like me (having ceom from the nintendo generation) know how big it is. I dont know that I could think of half a dozen people (my age) that dont occassionally play some sort of video game. Whether it be weekly bf1942 lan-parties or my little ponies pretty adventure.

aysiu
May 7th, 2007, 07:15 PM
The point of my argument wasnt to inspire programmers to write games... it was to dispute the statement that most people dont care about computer gaming. The computer gaming industry is enormous. Those two statements are both true, though.

Most people do not care about computer gaming, and the computer gaming industry is enormous. Why do you think those are mutually exclusive statements?

Praill
May 7th, 2007, 07:17 PM
Poor choice of words. I appended it to more clearly demonstrate what I think you know I was trying to say anyways.

Alex N
May 7th, 2007, 07:31 PM
"Anything you can do with Photoshop, you can do with GIMP. But like all things in the linux world, its more difficult"


It is completely wrong. In fact, it is vice-versa. There is at least one thing you can do in PS but not
in GIMP. It is 16-bit processing. Period. No need to do any more comparison. There is Cinepaint that
can do 16-bit and more, but it is not really usable now.
On the oter side, GIMP is simple and straightforward. When I needed to do some very special processing
of BW scans, I found the way in Gimp almost at once. Not so in PS.



I think most graphics people are probably frustrated with gimp because its hard to configure and install in windows.

O, please! Gimp JUST WORKS. Never had any problems with installation either on win or on Lin.
It has several ugly features, and it looks like they'll be there forever, but it works.

Other things that do not exist in Linux world :

* Non-linear video editing
* good NC clone
* full-featured programming IDE
* anything close to MSDN
* well, games...

Nikron
May 7th, 2007, 07:33 PM
* full-featured programming IDE


It's called vim =P

Praill
May 7th, 2007, 07:36 PM
O, please! Gimp JUST WORKS. Never had any problems with installation either on win or on Lin.
It has several ugly features, and it looks like they'll be there forever, but it works.

Really? Ive only installed gimp once in windows but it definently wasnt as easy as PS. I had to install GTK, and 2 other things i think. Then i had to include gtk's bin directory in my system path.
Not an overly complicated install, but certainly not the standard next-->next-->i agree-->next-->c:\program files\photoshop-->next-->finish that most people would be used to.

veratyr
May 7th, 2007, 07:39 PM
Lots of games...though wine does seem to keep improving.

support for my line 6 toneport and gearbox software. DAMN YOU LINE 6!

:guitar:

forrestcupp
May 7th, 2007, 08:19 PM
It seems that serious gamers are more likely to hear about and try linux than normal people, thus it might be more important for early adopters such as yourself but for the bulk of people this simply isn't true. there is also nothing we can do about it so if you want windows games, go buy windows and stop bothering these forums; such futile arguments are counter-productive since I don't know a single programmer that has read one of these daft threads and been inspired to write the next big linux game shoot em up.

Maybe you need to quit whining about people that care about gaming. All of the statistics in this forum don't prove that there aren't a lot of people who care about gaming. If there is such a small number of Linux users that care about gaming, there wouldn't be a commercial business called TransGaming that makes their money selling Cedega to get games to work in Linux. While it may not be important to the majority, it is important to a lot of people. In effect, you are calling all of those people unimportant. Thank you.

Some people only play puzzle games in Linux because they don't know how to get other types of games working.

Anyway, the original question is, "What can Windows do that Linux can't?" and gaming is a legitimate answer to a certain extent.

aysiu
May 7th, 2007, 08:23 PM
All of the statistics in this forum don't prove that there aren't a lot of people who care about gaming. Nobody has said there aren't a lot of people.

Let's say I start selling a product, and 1% of people in the world use it. There are about 6 billion people in the world. That would be 60 million users--a lot of users. If I charged each of them $100 for use of my product, that'd be $6,000,000,000 of gross revenue... a pretty sizable income. While that would warrant me saying a lot of people use my product, it would not warrant me saying most people use my product, since only 1% of people use it.

most is not the same as a lot

timpino
May 7th, 2007, 08:27 PM
Games, iTunes, Office suit that doesn't suck, Photoshop. that's pretty much what's left until it's worthy in the homes IMO :)

Linux that is

forrestcupp
May 7th, 2007, 08:37 PM
Nobody has said there aren't a lot of people.

Let's say I start selling a product, and 1% of people in the world use it. There are about 6 billion people in the world. That would be 60 million users--a lot of users. If I charged each of them $100 for use of my product, that'd be $6,000,000,000 of gross revenue... a pretty sizable income. While that would warrant me saying a lot of people use my product, it would not warrant me saying most people use my product, since only 1% of people use it.

most is not the same as a lot

That is very true. I just don't like the attitude that a certain group of people are unimportant and don't matter, so they should just leave.

johann_p
May 7th, 2007, 08:43 PM
I think the question was really what one can do *under* Windows that one cannot do under Linux: for this the answer is: a lot.

For example, there are probably hundreds of devices that come with proprietary software that will only run under Windows and maybe with some luck under OS X, but nothing else. One example: the software that comes with my Garmin GPS system which is also necessary to install map data I have bought on a DVD to that device. Many consumer devices like camcorders, mp3 players, cameras come with software that will not work under Linux and where there is no replacement. Example: My Canon Powershot camera comes with a Windows program that can remotely control the camera and e.g. do timed shots. Nothing of that sort exists for Linux.

Another category of things that you cannot do with Linux are programs made for certain professions: dentists, GMs, often *have* to use Windows because there are not alternatives for Linux on the market.

Many hardware devices do not work or only work in a very limited way: ink printers produce far inferior output with Linux drivers if they work at all. Some combo hardware devices do not work at all or only work in a very limited way.

There are far less games available for Linux.

There is practically no software for kids, especially multimedia and educational software available that runs under Linux.

Many special interest software programs (architecture, furnish your hous, design your garden, manage your stamp collection) are only available for Windows.

High quality programs like AutoCAD or graphical design programs or musical score editors or professional musical mixing and effects software is only available for Windows.

That is only some of the things I *know* of ... there is probably a lot more when it comes to things like labaratory device control, document archiving and management solutions for libraries and government organizations etc.

Nearly never is this the actual *fault* of Linux: most of these things *could* exist, they just don't for several reasons.

However, one area where Linux could help to make the situation better is by giving up its fixation that everything must be free and open source. There should be a place for closed, proprietary device drivers or proprietary software that will manage media and highly sensitive data (e.g. the maps I want to download to my GPS device -- it is clear that Garmin wants to protect that data by using some closed source proprietary encryption scheme).

I am using Linux exclusively for work now for several years (and other *NIX OSs before) and I am using Linux nearly exclusively for private purposes -- so most of these things do not matter most of the time to me. But for others, things that Linux lacks might be more important.

Bashing Windows and fighting a holy war is not the right and most productive way to make these people switch eventually.

aysiu
May 7th, 2007, 08:47 PM
That is very true. I just don't like the attitude that a certain group of people are unimportant and don't matter, so they should just leave.
That we can agree on. Gamers should not be dismissed simply because they are a minority. Most users are the minority in some way or another. For example, I use Firefox, which has at most (in Europe) 25% of the browser market. Should I then be dismissed because most people use IE? Nope.

Kobin
May 7th, 2007, 08:58 PM
Since MOST people use Windows, they are also using the MSN messenger...
Maybee you will disagree, but I think this is a very big problem for people wanting to use linux...
If you have family or boy/girl-friend, or share your computer with others, they will most often want to use MSN messenger, because their friends are using it. The will want to receive and send the same kind of smileys and animations lilke their friends, and be able to use the audio-chat function...

I know that maybe gaming is a big issue, but I think that if you want a large number of "normal" people to switch to linux this is one of the biggest issues. (even though it could seem like a small thing)

karellen
May 7th, 2007, 09:02 PM
I think the question was really what one can do *under* Windows that one cannot do under Linux: for this the answer is: a lot.

For example, there are probably hundreds of devices that come with proprietary software that will only run under Windows and maybe with some luck under OS X, but nothing else. One example: the software that comes with my Garmin GPS system which is also necessary to install map data I have bought on a DVD to that device. Many consumer devices like camcorders, mp3 players, cameras come with software that will not work under Linux and where there is no replacement. Example: My Canon Powershot camera comes with a Windows program that can remotely control the camera and e.g. do timed shots. Nothing of that sort exists for Linux.

Another category of things that you cannot do with Linux are programs made for certain professions: dentists, GMs, often *have* to use Windows because there are not alternatives for Linux on the market.

Many hardware devices do not work or only work in a very limited way: ink printers produce far inferior output with Linux drivers if they work at all. Some combo hardware devices do not work at all or only work in a very limited way.

There are far less games available for Linux.

There is practically no software for kids, especially multimedia and educational software available that runs under Linux.

Many special interest software programs (architecture, furnish your hous, design your garden, manage your stamp collection) are only available for Windows.

High quality programs like AutoCAD or graphical design programs or musical score editors or professional musical mixing and effects software is only available for Windows.

That is only some of the things I *know* of ... there is probably a lot more when it comes to things like labaratory device control, document archiving and management solutions for libraries and government organizations etc.

Nearly never is this the actual *fault* of Linux: most of these things *could* exist, they just don't for several reasons.

However, one area where Linux could help to make the situation better is by giving up its fixation that everything must be free and open source. There should be a place for closed, proprietary device drivers or proprietary software that will manage media and highly sensitive data (e.g. the maps I want to download to my GPS device -- it is clear that Garmin wants to protect that data by using some closed source proprietary encryption scheme).

I am using Linux exclusively for work now for several years (and other *NIX OSs before) and I am using Linux nearly exclusively for private purposes -- so most of these things do not matter most of the time to me. But for others, things that Linux lacks might be more important.

Bashing Windows and fighting a holy war is not the right and most productive way to make these people switch eventually.

seems to me that you summed up pretty well all the relevant things concerning linux and windows...:)

z0idberg
May 7th, 2007, 09:03 PM
That is very true. I just don't like the attitude that a certain group of people are unimportant and don't matter, so they should just leave.
I don't think anyone said that.

They're only trying to make the point that puzzle games are played more than huge titles like HL2 and WoW. While the amount of WoW-players may be impressive, most people don't play WoW. The same goes for any of the best-selling games that you would normally think of when anyone mentions "games". Most people don't play them, and while most people might not play puzzle games either, the userbase for those games is much larger, because they are played by people who have no interest in computers whatsoever.

Edit: At least, that's what I think :).

aysiu
May 7th, 2007, 09:07 PM
However, one area where Linux could help to make the situation better is by giving up its fixation that everything must be free and open source. There should be a place for closed, proprietary device drivers or proprietary software that will manage media and highly sensitive data (e.g. the maps I want to download to my GPS device -- it is clear that Garmin wants to protect that data by using some closed source proprietary encryption scheme). I don't see what the problem is. Sure, some vocal parts of the community are against closed source software, but that doesn't prevent companies from making Linux versions of proprietary software. They do it all the time, actually! FirstClass Client, Opera, Nvidia drivers, Acrobat Reader, Flash Player...

The real reason is money.

Companies don't think it's worth the money to make Linux ports, and so they don't. And most of the time they're right. Just take a look at any threads proposing Apple port iTunes to Linux.

PartisanEntity
May 7th, 2007, 09:11 PM
Windows can keep you up to date with antivirus and firewall software as well as developments in these fields, Linux can't.

jerrylamos
May 7th, 2007, 09:15 PM
Ya, with the mplayer-mozilla plugin and flash-mozilla plugin you should be able to stream all videos on any page.
......


I don't get ABC News Videos on anything else but a Windoze product. I've tried what you have and it doesn't work for me; has anyone else had any luck with ABC News Videos? It usually complains about ActiveX and some other Microsoft dependencies. CNN videos are spotty, sometimes yes and sometimes no. AOL Music videos also spotty. BBC news videos O.K. as are ABC Australia and NY Times.

What Linux can't do is the utility that cleans the heads on my Epson Stylus printer, and changes the cartridges. I dual boot for that, because Wine won't do the utility either.

Cheers, Jerry

hsweet
May 7th, 2007, 09:26 PM
No decent CAD easily yet except maybe pro-engineer.

forrestcupp
May 7th, 2007, 09:41 PM
That is very true. I just don't like the attitude that a certain group of people are unimportant and don't matter, so they should just leave.


I don't think anyone said that.



there is also nothing we can do about it so if you want windows games, go buy windows and stop bothering these forums; such futile arguments are counter-productive since I don't know a single programmer that has read one of these daft threads and been inspired to write the next big linux game shoot em up.


On a different note:



There is practically no software for kids, especially multimedia and educational software available that runs under Linux.
That's not entirely true. I have found that there is plenty of quality educational children's software. Gcompris and Childsplay are two great packages for kids.

xpod
May 7th, 2007, 09:52 PM
What Linux can't do is the utility that cleans the heads on my Epson Stylus printer, and changes the cartridges. I dual boot for that, because Wine won't do the utility either.

Would`nt "mtink" be any good

sabrewolf2006
May 7th, 2007, 10:15 PM
print to my lexmark printer.

It used to be able to be done.. :S
I have a lexmark z515 and went looking around the lexmark website..
They have a PDDK (PrinterDriverDevelopmentKit) on there packaged in an .rpm.. I just used alien to turn to a .deb and installed..
It worked a treat for me.. although I haven't tried it in a while.. I'll have another look see how it goes..

Update: http://www.lexmark.com/lexmark/sequentialem/home/0,6959,204816596_659668523_676599624_en,00.html
Update:Just generated a new deb using new driver.. just testing with printer now
Update:it doesn't work *sigh* g++ keeps throwing up errors that I can't solve

Gargamella
May 7th, 2007, 10:23 PM
Linux is good for an average user, but it still doesn't rule between teenagers because of gaming and I really agree with aysiu.

In fact an average user may not play at all, but there are many users playing a bit and many others playing a lot...but gaming is too much important to be so ignored in my vision.

z0idberg
May 7th, 2007, 10:23 PM
forrestcupp: You're right, I'm sorry. But my point is still valid.

kelvin spratt
May 7th, 2007, 10:25 PM
collect every virus adware and phone home to ms every 10 seconds and then decide it does not want to play any more

amphet
May 7th, 2007, 10:29 PM
Someone needs to write a Router Simulator then I wont need windows for anything.

50words
May 7th, 2007, 10:31 PM
Easy document scanning. There is no good application to pull scans straight to a file with a push of my scanner's button. This is really more of a hardware manufacturer problem than a problem with Linux, but without this, I can't switch to Linux. It is kind of a shame that what very well may be the "next-generation" OS still isn't compatible with a paperless office.

sabrewolf2006
May 7th, 2007, 10:35 PM
Easy document scanning. There is no good application to pull scans straight to a file with a push of my scanner's button. This is really more of a hardware manufacturer problem than a problem with Linux, but without this, I can't switch to Linux. It is kind of a shame that what very well may be the "next-generation" OS still isn't compatible with a paperless office.

Doesn't HPLIP cater for that? (I don't have a HP printer myself so I can't test)

regomodo
May 7th, 2007, 10:49 PM
I'm finding this discussion about gaming not that big based on "that link" a little annoying.

A survey based on 3000 Americans? Come on. That's hardly a survey.

What can't i do in Linux?

- Engineering Software - CAD, Xilinx, Modelsim, Multisim, Solidworks
-Use my Epson 4180
-Convert a selection of mp3's from a large collection for an mp3 player in a simple to use manner i.e artist/album. Not folder name
-Decent graphics gaming
-Foobar2000
-Virtualdubmod(at least the last time i checked)
-Winrar(someone please recommend a decent substitute)
-have that most loved blue screen

ticopelp
May 7th, 2007, 10:51 PM
No one's contending whether or not gaming is big, for crying out loud.

karellen
May 7th, 2007, 10:54 PM
a device not working with linux (digital camera, scanner, laser printer and so) seems to be like a very good reason not do erase windows from your hard drive

aysiu
May 7th, 2007, 11:01 PM
I'm finding this discussion about gaming not that big based on "that link" a little annoying. And I'm finding "refutations" (with no evidence of any kind) of "that link" a little annoying. I tried my best to find reputable sources... or any sources. It's not as if I found a study of 3,000,000 Americans and chose to shirk that in favor of a smaller sample size.

If you find me a study with more participants and drastically different results in favor of PC gaming, let me know. Otherwise, intellectually speaking, you don't have a right to be annoyed. Of course, you can, emotionally speaking, do whatever you want, and you probably will.

JerseyShoreComputer
May 7th, 2007, 11:02 PM
Just a few things:

1. Quickbooks
2. Adobe Creative Suite
3. Use my Labelwriter
4. Sony Vegas, Acid Pro, ect... (We'll see when Ubuntu Studio is out what happens)
5. Quark

Adamant1988
May 7th, 2007, 11:07 PM
I think gaming is the most important for a lot of people. Also a lot of professionals miss Photoshop.

A lot of *pirates* miss photoshop. Most pros are using a Mac anyway, they excel at graphics work.


Anyway, Windows is better than Linux with it's GUI config tools. If Microsoft did anything right with Windows it was those GUI tools. Past that, there are simply a lot of applications that do not work on any GNU/Linux distribution non-trivially, such as games. Tax-software is a big deal too. But there are added benefits to using a distribution of GNU/Linux over Windows, it's give and take.

regomodo
May 7th, 2007, 11:12 PM
And I'm finding "refutations" (with no evidence of any kind) of "that link" a little annoying. I tried my best to find reputable sources... or any sources. It's not as if I found a study of 3,000,000 Americans and chose to shirk that in favor of a smaller sample size.

If you find me a study with more participants and drastically different results in favor of PC gaming, let me know. Otherwise, intellectually speaking, you don't have a right to be annoyed. Of course, you can, emotionally speaking, do whatever you want, and you probably will.

Yeah, sorry. I couldn't think of a better word a the time. I was going to say tenuous but didn't think that was right either.

Henry Rayker
May 7th, 2007, 11:12 PM
I'm finding this discussion about gaming not that big based on "that link" a little annoying.

A survey based on 3000 Americans? Come on. That's hardly a survey.

I find the fact that the other side can't even come up with a survey more annoying. Gaming isn't the enormous market that it is due to the amount of people who take part; gaming is big due to the amount of time and money the gamers (or their parents, in terms of money) are willing to put into it. I personally love games, but I can accept the fact that most people who use computers don't use their computer solely (or even mostly) for games. Other functionality is much more important.

aysiu
May 7th, 2007, 11:25 PM
I find the fact that the other side can't even come up with a survey more annoying. Contrary to what some people in this thread have posited, I am not biased in this issue. What happened is people kept saying PC gaming is this big thing that "everyone" does, and I started to question myself, "Am I crazy? Why don't I know more PC gaming people? All the gamers I know console game. Maybe I should check this out..." and I tried my best to do some net research (it isn't as easy as you might think) on any studies related to what kinds of games people play.

You'd be surprised--there aren't that many.

The statistics seemed to support the idea that PC gaming is big... but not as big as some people on Linux forums seem to think it is. That's why I wrote up "that link." In the link (if you read it), I actually acknowledge the PC gaming as quite large and profitable, just not all-encompassing.

I know 3,000 doesn't seem like a lot of people to poll, but if most people were really PC gaming, then you'd have to do some serious biased sampling (find the Amish in Pennsylvania, maybe) in order to find 3,000 people to throw that statistic off.

And, as I said before, I couldn't find studies with more participants. If anyone finds them, please let me know, and I'll include them in "that link."

regomodo
May 7th, 2007, 11:36 PM
Again, i apologise of i did come off rude. ATM i can't tell i'm getting flamed for either my largish list of things i can't do in Linux or for my badly worded opinion.

I'm not complaining about anything and i except the limitations that come with linux. I am also not a gamer, i've never owned console and only have one game, BF2. Did try AA and it's a great for the price, but not for me.

I did actually read that link and, despite his/her research i found the wide sweeping statements a little hard to swallow. I'm not from the US so he's probably right, but in my experience gaming is substantial, but as you say not as big people sometimes make out (yes, another opinion).

Hopefully that's worded slightly better.

aysiu
May 7th, 2007, 11:38 PM
in my experience gaming is substantial, but as you say not as big people sometimes make out (yes, another opinion). I think that's something we can all agree on.

Henry Rayker
May 8th, 2007, 12:13 AM
I wasn't taking any offense from you, regomodo, and I wasn't trying to flame either. I have seen, many times, people suggesting that the lack of game support is the single most important thing holding linux based OSes from being mainstream and this attitude drives me bonkers. (This attitude isn't unique to gamers, though)

raymac46
May 8th, 2007, 12:16 AM
I've found I can't do my (Canadian) income tax with QuickTax unless I want to use an online version. Plus there's no really elegant password manager in Linux that's as good as Roboform.
Also I use a superb audio program called Wave Repair to get rid of noise in old vinyl recordings. I don't think anything like that exists in Linux. ( I may be wrong.)
That's it for me, although I do prefer Photoshop Elements and ACDSee photo manager to their Linux equivalents.

pirothezero
May 8th, 2007, 12:21 AM
those videos you should copy the addresses for them and use mplayer at the command prompt, it's more likely to tell you what the problem is, more than not a missing dll or problematic codec.

Whats the easiest way to get the link if they have javascript and all that junk in the hyperlink?

BuffaloX
May 8th, 2007, 12:33 AM
I beg to differ:
http://www.psychocats.net/essays/gamingperspective

I read it, and I firmly disagree.

The importance of gaming was discussed recently in another thread, my response was:
http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=2570916&postcount=9

Talking about sales figures for games is not representative of usage because such things as:
1: borrowed
2: pirated
3: second hand
4: free
5: internet purchase/downloads.
6: Old/repackaged games ( cheap and works on older systems, are almost never on any statistics. )

The importance of games for a platform goes way beyond the actual hardcore gamers.
There are many psychological factors in play, like with whom do I identify myself.
Who helps me with my computer, Games may not be important, but I want as many options available as possible. Games should be available to other members of the family.

Many of these factors are very hard to integrate in a questionnaire in a "neutral way", and it will easily become more misleading than informative.

Saying that hardcore gaming isn't important for most may be true on the surface.
But in reality only shows lack of knowledge of the home computer industry.

konungursvia
May 8th, 2007, 12:37 AM
I love Linux (I use it 75% of the time, and win xp 25%), but it won't....

* display fonts cleanly and readably in a way I can use for hours at a time on academic research
* run my Dlink airplus wireless card with full encryption
* run any good FTP clients with PGP encryption, which my university server requires
* run my Opera 9.2 any more
* install my World of Warcraft
* I/O data with my HP Scanjet 3500
* run my WordPerfect 11 with French/ English dictionary and active thesaurus
* run my Photoshop 7 with all the beautiful artistic filters (gimp is good, but has half the cool filters)
* run Java Webstart runtime environment in the same way Firefox for Windows does (strange differences)
* run my Adobe Acrobat Professional with very pro PDF editing and proofing tools

That's all I can think of right now, I really love some of my tools written for win32. Hope linux gets OSX quality overall soon.

MikeDX
May 8th, 2007, 12:46 AM
-Winrar(someone please recommend a decent substitute)


Winrar runs perfectly under wine, except for some minor visuals..

MikeDX
May 8th, 2007, 12:47 AM
Whats the easiest way to get the link if they have javascript and all that junk in the hyperlink?

adblock plugin for firefox works a treat for that, and failint that, one of those javascript debugging plugins works too.

forrestcupp
May 8th, 2007, 02:33 AM
I have seen, many times, people suggesting that the lack of game support is the single most important thing holding linux based OSes from being mainstream and this attitude drives me bonkers. (This attitude isn't unique to gamers, though)

I think it's just that most things besides games have decent alternatives. Gaming is the one thing that you really can't just make an alternative for. For instance, Half-Life 2 is a cool FPS game with lots of work put into the levels, modeling, animation, acting, rendering, etc. Sauerbraten is a good FPS that runs natively on Linux, but it can't really be an alternative to HL2. The beauty of HL2 isn't that it is a FPS, but rather the content and atmosphere of the game.

deanlinkous
May 8th, 2007, 02:36 AM
Saying that hardcore gaming isn't important for most may be true on the surface.
But in reality only shows lack of knowledge of the home computer industry.
No really.... When you are into something, and hang around others that are into something and you seek out those sort of things - you start to assume it is *everyone* or at least a large portion of others when in actuality you are simply seeking those out. There is actually a term that describes something similar, about groups and majority and how someone thinks it is the majority because they are a part of it - just cant think of it.

Fittersman
May 8th, 2007, 02:43 AM
I'm finding this discussion about gaming not that big based on "that link" a little annoying.

A survey based on 3000 Americans? Come on. That's hardly a survey.

What can't i do in Linux?

- Engineering Software - CAD, Xilinx, Modelsim, Multisim, Solidworks
-Use my Epson 4180
-Convert a selection of mp3's from a large collection for an mp3 player in a simple to use manner i.e artist/album. Not folder name
-Decent graphics gaming
-Foobar2000
-Virtualdubmod(at least the last time i checked)
-Winrar(someone please recommend a decent substitute)
-have that most loved blue screen

if by that mp3 comment you mean that you want to bulk rename them, try "audio tag tool"
for the winrar substitute, you could use ARK, i find it works well, and i was lookin in add or remove and i fould another one, i think its called RAR (well named, lol)

those applications are all in add or remove, so give em a shot :D

Praill
May 8th, 2007, 03:36 AM
I wasn't taking any offense from you, regomodo, and I wasn't trying to flame either. I have seen, many times, people suggesting that the lack of game support is the single most important thing holding linux based OSes from being mainstream and this attitude drives me bonkers. (This attitude isn't unique to gamers, though)

I dont think anyone could credit it as being the SINGLE most thing. But in my experience at least its a huge issue with the people ive tried to convert.

All I have to tell them is the 3d games they like to play MAY not work in linux and if they do it will take serious work and "tinkering". Immediately after hearing this they decide to not even try it, and I dont blame them.
If you are buying and playing new video games on your computer even 10% of the time you use it why switch? Especially if youre not a hobbiest and that "tinkering" required is annoying to you.
ALOT of teenagers and 20-somethings play games and have for the last 10-20 years. Most of them really dont care about the ideology behind what theyre doing... they just want it to work, and be affordable.
Blizz is making online games a world-wide sensation, and theres no indication of that trend going anywhere but up.

All I'm saying is that in MY experience, it is a big issue with most people IVE met.

However, I doubt its a governing factor. If linux wants to become mainstream they need to target big business. After all, thats how microsoft did it.
I think Shuttleworth understands this and his goal is to make a self-sustaining core that varying parties can take over and develop. All it will take is companies like Dell to start distributing *nix systems at a LOWER cost (very important). Then the key is companies like Novell that are actually willing to market their product and provide professional SUPPORT. This is the biggest reason businesses choose microsoft. When something goes wrong, they at least have someone to hold accountable.

BLTicklemonster
May 8th, 2007, 05:43 AM
In Windows, I can edit maps in unreal editor. I can't in linux. Hardly can in vmware in linux. My mouse goes all wierd.

slimdog360
May 8th, 2007, 06:07 AM
I was responding to this statement: not this one

I still retain my statement

Henry Rayker
May 8th, 2007, 09:42 AM
If you are buying and playing new video games on your computer even 10% of the time you use it why switch? Especially if youre not a hobbiest and that "tinkering" required is annoying to you.

For me, that's the beauty of a dual boot...because the Linux based OS experience is so much greater (for me, at least), I prefer to stay there as often as I can...however, sometimes, I just NEED my game fix; it's really not worth it to me to try to get them working with wine (I've never heard of a single success story with GunZ:The Duel, and I don't even want to try it due to the fact that the server joining requires IE) Of course, there is the small amount of time spent in rebooting, selecting the OS and then rebooting back out, but that small time overhead is, typically, much less than I spent updating anti-virus, rebooting after said updates etc. (So, before mentioning any other benefits, I'm already in the black)

Granted, I'm not such a huge (PC) gamer--for quite some time, I haven't even purchased a new game. It's as if the gaming industry and I have grown apart. I can't see the point behind paying $50 for a game, then paying a subscription fee just to play the game; it's fine if I need to pay the subscription to play --some-- of the game, but for it to become a useless coaster after the subscription is over is senseless to me. As far as consoles go, I'm really more into the modification aspect. I love my emulators on my xbox.

regomodo
May 8th, 2007, 10:29 AM
if by that mp3 comment you mean that you want to bulk rename them, try "audio tag tool"
for the winrar substitute, you could use ARK, i find it works well, and i was lookin in add or remove and i fould another one, i think its called RAR (well named, lol)

those applications are all in add or remove, so give em a shot :D


RAR. Are you sure that's in the add/remove? I found it in synaptic and it's command line based

I wasn't looking for a bulk renamer. Just something that can scan my mp3 collection for Artists/Albums and then allow me to browse that created list so that i can reencode them for my little mp3 player. 320Kbps ogg/mp3/wma and flac will either it up my mp3 player or just not work. Something like "Sound Juicer" (i think. not in Ubuntu ATM) but with a media library browser

nami
May 8th, 2007, 10:31 AM
The Visual Studio IDE's for microsoft windows are amazing.

Enverex
May 8th, 2007, 10:34 AM
I don't think gaming is that important to most people, only the very loud and the early adopters. once we're past this phase you'll find most new users don't play games or find the games available in Linux to be superior in the types of games they play (puzzle games etc)

Been using Linux for 7 years or so now and games are still the biggest issue for me and the reason why I still have to dual boot. I'd buy a console but I prefer M+K and console game prices are just horrid.

Shin_Gouki2501
May 8th, 2007, 10:36 AM
yes i havew to agree with that! Visual Studio is a great IDE and piece of software.

Windows is also able to enable the user to use wireless network without touching the command line :)

nami
May 8th, 2007, 10:38 AM
yes i havew to agree with that! Visual Studio is a great IDE and piece of software.

it's the only reason why i still use windows. even though its through ubuntu + vmware. ;)

robenroute
May 8th, 2007, 10:44 AM
My biggest issue would be Linux' inability to run software that updates firmware:

- a Linksys VOIP router a have needed a new firmware version, hence, I had to go to a friend with a Windows machine....
- my mp3 player (Trekstor Vibez) needs Windows to get its firmware updated
- my Samsung DVD rewriter can't do without Windows if it wants to run the latest firmware that is

Need I carry on? (I'm not even talking about things like fixing mp3 headers or rewriting mp3 streams which foobar2000 is good at)

Henry Rayker
May 8th, 2007, 11:40 AM
Windows is also able to enable the user to use wireless network without touching the command line :)

I use wireless without touching the command line...


My biggest issue would be Linux' inability to run software that updates firmware:

- a Linksys VOIP router a have needed a new firmware version, hence, I had to go to a friend with a Windows machine....
- my mp3 player (Trekstor Vibez) needs Windows to get its firmware updated
- my Samsung DVD rewriter can't do without Windows if it wants to run the latest firmware that is

I don't know that the problem here is inherently Linux'...I don't know of anything that prohibits the act of firmware aside from the fact that the device manufacturer doesn't make the app for non-M$ OSes (and it seems more common these days to also support OSX) While I know that doesn't help you, I felt it was rather important to point out that your problem is more on the lines of "Linux can't run software designed to be run on Windows"

jethro10
May 8th, 2007, 12:22 PM
Backup & sync my WM5 smartphone.

J

forrestcupp
May 8th, 2007, 01:12 PM
I can sync my pocketpc, but I can't install most software onto it from Linux. I can install cab files onto it, but most pocketpc software comes as an exe, not a cab.

Hallvor
May 8th, 2007, 02:04 PM
Give you a bsod.

robenroute
May 8th, 2007, 02:09 PM
I use wireless without touching the command line...



I don't know that the problem here is inherently Linux'...I don't know of anything that prohibits the act of firmware aside from the fact that the device manufacturer doesn't make the app for non-M$ OSes (and it seems more common these days to also support OSX) While I know that doesn't help you, I felt it was rather important to point out that your problem is more on the lines of "Linux can't run software designed to be run on Windows"

I realize it's not Linux' inability (poor choice of words on my side; sorry), rather the manufacturer's shortcomings. In that light, I regularly send e-mails to manufacturers explaining the situation and asking for a solution. I have yet to find a manufacturer that is willing to engage in a constructive discussion, let alone offer a solution.

We all should send e-mails to manufacturers in order to give 'em a wake-up call!

BuffaloX
May 8th, 2007, 05:08 PM
No really.... When you are into something, and hang around others that are into something and you seek out those sort of things - you start to assume it is *everyone* or at least a large portion of others when in actuality you are simply seeking those out. There is actually a term that describes something similar, about groups and majority and how someone thinks it is the majority because they are a part of it - just cant think of it.

Yes I see what you mean.
I'm not claiming gamers are a majority,
But that gamers have an influence beyond their own sphere.
And that availability of games has influence beyond the perceived "need" for games.

Turtlecatpurrz
May 8th, 2007, 07:11 PM
I am very, very new here, but from what I have seen thus far the things that Linux is presently unable to do comes mostly from the unwillingness of publishers to work with the Linux community. For example, PC games are almost never ported to Linux, or Mac for that matter. Same with the software and firmware updates that hardware companies use.

It seems to me that the biggest things slowing Linux right now are that it is still a fringe market, and publishers don't want to take it seriously.

It seems that to get most of our problems resolved, we are going to have to make sure that there are enough of us to be heard. That is going to take us helping others taste the goodness of Linux, and hoping, at least a little bit that Windows hamstrings itself with DRM and its popularity with the adware community.

Just my thoughts on the state of things.

jcconnor
May 8th, 2007, 08:32 PM
* the ability to upload pictures from picasa directly to the web album;


Actually that works. Once you install the Linux version (it's the Windows version running under Wine with some mods from Google) you can then install the new version and be able to upload your pictures. I've done in with Edgy (haven't upgrade yet, so YMMV under Feisty).

John

cotcot
May 8th, 2007, 08:42 PM
Unfortunately there is a better chance to get printers and scanners working in MS Windows because vendors supply the drivers for it. So check the availability of open source drivers and linux support carefully before you buy one.

blazercist
May 8th, 2007, 09:25 PM
you are all underestimating the multi billion dollar windows gaming industry, example: steam alone has millions of users that love windows based 3d games such as counter strike source etc. In my experience even counter strike source which is rated gold on winehq.org is problematic under wine at best. Gamers appreciate eye candy and beryl is appealing to them as is not having to run all that antivrus/antispyware bloatware but without their favorite games they are unwilling to convert.

WoW for example is the single most popular online game in the world with over 4 million registered users i havent played wow under wine but if you could convert even 1% of the wow users thats 40,000 people, just think about it.

aysiu
May 8th, 2007, 10:37 PM
you are all underestimating the multi billion dollar windows gaming industry No, you're overestimating it:
The NPD Group tracks computer and video game sales in the United States. It reported that as of 2004:

* Console and portable software sales: $6.2 billion, up 8% from 2003[2]
* Console and portable hardware and accessory sales: $3.7 billion, down 35% from 2003[2]
* PC game sales: $1.1 billion, down 2% from 2003[3] PC games are big. I don't know if you consider 1.1 "multi-billion," but okay... console and portable software sales were 6.2, more than five times as much.

Here's a more recent press release about the NPD groups' 2006 findings (http://www.npd.com/press/releases/press_070119.html):
PORT WASHINGTON, NY, January 19, 2007 – According to leading marketing information provider, The NPD Group, U.S. retail sales of video games, which includes portable and console hardware, software and accessories, generated revenues of close to $12.5 billion, exceeding the previous record of $10.5 billion set in 2005.

Retail sales in the PC game software industry showed signs of growth, with revenues up one percent, exceeding $970 million in 2006, bringing the total console, portable and PC game industry close to $13.5 billion, an 18 percent increase over the previous year, and a 15% increase over the previous record achieved in 2002. So, no, as of 2006, PC gaming was a multi-million-, not multi-billion-dollar industry.

Znupi
May 8th, 2007, 10:47 PM
There's two things I'm missing:
1) Yahoo! Messenger -- with GAIM I can't receive files and I can't chat with Windows Live! users. :( --if there's an alternative besides Yahoo!'s webmessenger please let me know...
2) Paint.NET (http://getpaint.net). I just can't handle Gimp, I loved Paint.NET, but now it's gone :(. Is there any chance of installing the .NET framework with wine? lol...

Fittersman
May 9th, 2007, 02:47 AM
RAR. Are you sure that's in the add/remove? I found it in synaptic and it's command line based

I wasn't looking for a bulk renamer. Just something that can scan my mp3 collection for Artists/Albums and then allow me to browse that created list so that i can reencode them for my little mp3 player. 320Kbps ogg/mp3/wma and flac will either it up my mp3 player or just not work. Something like "Sound Juicer" (i think. not in Ubuntu ATM) but with a media library browser

in add or remove do you have "all available applications" selected in the top right corner?

B. Gates
May 9th, 2007, 02:48 AM
What can Windows do that Linux can't?
Pay my salary.

robtg
May 9th, 2007, 02:57 AM
You can go to any software store and buy just about any Windows application software you need. That's what's going to make Linux shine: applications. The Linux community needs to get commercial software developers excited about Linux.

There may be bazillions of open-source applications available, but if they were as good as corresponding Windows applications, nobody would be running Windows. For me, it's something as stupid as Turbo Tax. If I don't have a copy of Windows lying around the house, I can't run Turbo Tax, and I'm not going to buy a copy of Turbo Tax and "hope" that Wine will run it. If I have Windows, I know my favorite applications will run. That's why you have a PC...to run applications, not to run an operating system.

Fittersman
May 9th, 2007, 03:03 AM
Pay my salary.

...you made that account just for a joke in this thread didnt you?

BLTicklemonster
May 9th, 2007, 04:22 AM
ATI cards, yes.
And scan on a Lexmark.
And one button click ripping of a dvd. ripit4me is awesome.


But, Unreal Tournament absolutely kicks butt in linux as compared to in windows. And that right there is enough to keep me in ubuntu!

Jageye
May 9th, 2007, 06:20 AM
@aysiu

I dont know if you realise this but those figures are just American retail sales, its doesnt count the rest of the world, im sure if you took korea (the bigest pc gaming country in the world) into account that would push the figures up a bit, not to mention the rest of the world, then theres online sales, and pirating, i would put money on it that theres more pc gamers than linux users.

karellen
May 9th, 2007, 06:50 AM
There's two things I'm missing:
1) Yahoo! Messenger -- with GAIM I can't receive files and I can't chat with Windows Live! users. :( --if there's an alternative besides Yahoo!'s webmessenger please let me know...
2) Paint.NET (http://getpaint.net). I just can't handle Gimp, I loved Paint.NET, but now it's gone :(. Is there any chance of installing the .NET framework with wine? lol...

I know what you mean, these 2 complains are on my "top ten" too...
paint.NET is great and comes for free :D

Henry Rayker
May 9th, 2007, 07:33 AM
@aysiu

I dont know if you realise this but those figures are just American retail sales, its doesnt count the rest of the world, im sure if you took korea (the bigest pc gaming country in the world) into account that would push the figures up a bit, not to mention the rest of the world, then theres online sales, and pirating, i would put money on it that theres more pc gamers than linux users.

I don't understand what is with the "gamer" argument. We get that there is a lot of money involved; that is irrelevant, to be honest. The points that have been refuted are 1) Gamers do not make up a majority, 2) (perhaps incorrectly) aysiu was arguing that PC gaming isn't a multi-billion dollar industry.

As far as your bet that there are more pc gamers than linux users, I'm a little curious about that one. Although the spec is disputed, 3.5% is the market share attributed to Linux...a couple nice numbers are WoW (quite possibly the most popular game right now) has, what, 4 million users over the span of how long? Fedora, upon releasing FC6 had 1 million unique connections to yum for updates within 74 days...and that's just one distro (and not even the most popular), within the first 3 months of its release (given that there is still a pretty strong following for Dapper here, I think it's probably safe to assume that lots of people were hesitant to upgrade from FC5 to FC6 within the first 3 months too)

As a little end-note: I'm not trying to belittle the gaming industry in any way. I understand that it does have driving forces in many other sectors (hollywood, hardware design, marketing etc. etc.) but to try to suggest that, were the linux community to focus on getting games to work, the market share would jump by leaps and bounds is not only laughable, but just plain unjustified by any sort of fact. Even if the gaming community is 10% of the overall computer-using population, do you honestly think you will have a 100% switch-over rate? In reality, even if the gaming community is larger than the linux community, it isn't going to be by a whole lot; and still, there will be cross-overs like myself (and all you "gamer" argument folks as well) who are already on this side of the fence.

The point we're all trying to get at is (or at least the point I'm trying to drive), while gaming really is a nice sector of the market, the gaming industry is so deeply entrenched in the M$ way of doing things, it will take a disproportionate amount of work to get compatibility vs. the amount of people who would end up converting. Until the gaming industry decides to start producing cross-compatible games, there isn't a whole lot we can do about it. Of course, we could always work on playing the perpetual game of catch-up, but if you have to wait an additional couple months while Wine/Cedega/whoever the hell else works on getting the game to run, are you going to actually wait, or are you just going to switch over to Windows and fire up the game?

aysiu
May 9th, 2007, 08:34 AM
I'm sorry. Being an American, I tend to be overly self-centered. Apologies on that.

As Henry Rayker points out, though, the point still stands. Multi-billion, multi-million... no matter how "huge" it is, it's still the minority.

seshomaru samma
May 9th, 2007, 08:34 AM
Winodws has a lot of superior applications for the Chinese language
For example there is no Linux equivilant (as far as I know) for Windows's Sugou input system which can learn your choices of Chinese characters and remember them. Ziguang pinyin is also pretty good.
Word, which I think is superior to OO can write Chinese top to bottom , I don't think OO can do that.
Video in Skype....

dspari1
May 9th, 2007, 08:40 AM
I beg to differ:
http://www.psychocats.net/essays/gamingperspective

It's funny how it pointed out:

Most average home PC users do not go out and buy the latest World of Warcraft or Doom. Seriously.

Both of those work great under Linux. Seriously. :popcorn:

aysiu
May 9th, 2007, 08:51 AM
That's funny. I was just trying to pull names of popular PC games off the top of my head. Since I don't PC game, and no one I know well PC games, I just thought of whatever I could think of.

dspari1
May 9th, 2007, 09:19 AM
That's funny. I was just trying to pull names of popular PC games off the top of my head. Since I don't PC game, and no one I know well PC games, I just thought of whatever I could think of.

I understood your point, but I just had to mention it because WoW is pretty much the only game I play these days, and my copy of CrossOver has of yet to even give me a minor graphical glitch. It just works.

I should probably give Cedega a try, but I'm good for now.

OffHand
May 9th, 2007, 12:08 PM
I don't understand what is with the "gamer" argument. We get that there is a lot of money involved; that is irrelevant, to be honest. The points that have been refuted are 1) Gamers do not make up a majority, 2) (perhaps incorrectly) aysiu was arguing that PC gaming isn't a multi-billion dollar industry.

....

As a little end-note: I'm not trying to belittle the gaming industry in any way. I understand that it does have driving forces in many other sectors (hollywood, hardware design, marketing etc. etc.) but to try to suggest that, were the linux community to focus on getting games to work, the market share would jump by leaps and bounds is not only laughable, but just plain unjustified by any sort of fact. Even if the gaming community is 10% of the overall computer-using population, do you honestly think you will have a 100% switch-over rate?

You seem to forget to take into consideration that gamers are usually young tweakers - the kind of people that manage the computers of friends and family. If they are not gonna switch, their families and friends won't either. In others words - 1 gamer does not equal 1 computer/person.

forrestcupp
May 9th, 2007, 02:37 PM
Here are some interesting facts about gaming that can be found from The Entertainment Software Association's website ( http://www.theesa.com/ ). There are more stats, but here are a few:

* 69% of American heads of household play computer or video games

* The average game player's age is 33

* In 2005, 25% of gamers were over the age of 50

* Top 3 computer game genres (not console) - Strategy(30.8%), Family & Children(19.8%), Shooter(14.4%)

This also includes console gamers, but last year PC game sales alone were almost $1Billion. According to the Tech Report article here ( http://techreport.com/onearticle.x/12318 ), it appears that PC game sales are having a major rebound this year, and it is not just a fluke.

I'm not a major gamer like I used to be, but I still see the importance of gaming. Don't just dismiss it because you think you're above gaming. I probably don't care about some of the software that is important to you, but I'm not crying about it.

aysiu
May 9th, 2007, 02:45 PM
You seem to forget to take into consideration that gamers are usually young tweakers - the kind of people that manage the computers of friends and family. If they are not gonna switch, their families and friends won't either. In others words - 1 gamer does not equal 1 computer/person.
So a gamer who has non-gaming friends and family won't switch the non-gaming friends and family to desktop Linux because the gamer can't play all the games she wants... even though the friends and family would be all too happy using desktop Linux?

I don't buy that argument at all.

And, P.S., that's not the argument that the "gaming is huge" people have been making up to this point in the thread. If you want to twist it to be a "trickle down" effect, that's a new position.

OffHand
May 9th, 2007, 02:53 PM
So a gamer who has non-gaming friends and family won't switch the non-gaming friends and family to desktop Linux because the gamer can't play all the games she wants... even though the friends and family would be all too happy using desktop Linux?

I don't buy that argument at all.

Buy it or not but that's the way it is.... They will not install Linux if they are using Windows themselfs... they probably wouldn't even know how to install it.

Hendrixski
May 9th, 2007, 03:12 PM
I beg to differ:
http://www.psychocats.net/essays/gamingperspective

Very informational article.

Open Source is a democratic kind of thing. if there are very few games developed it's because there is very little demand for games.


BTW. I think that the only thing that Windows has that Linux doesn't is the Blue Screen. I use Linux exclusively in my office, and everything seems to work, and works well at that.

MOS95B
May 9th, 2007, 03:17 PM
I'll jump into this one, what the heck. Gamers are not a majority of users. But for those users, it is the reason they would not switch. It's one of the reasons I didn't for so long.

And when people ask me, that's the first thing I bring up. "Do you like to play a lot of games?" If yes, then stay with Windows. If not, give Ubuntu a try. You'll likely find an program that will do what you want

For me personally, the only thing I've found that windows will do that Linux won't is run a program called Pepakura . So, that's installed on my Windows box.

So, even though the user-base might be small compared to overall users, I'd still have to put high-tech gaming as an important consideration as to what Linux can't do.

Here's an interesting read... http://www.seopher.com/articles/xp_over_ubuntu_over_vista Judging by this one article, I would call the author at least a power user (MSDN Sub). Raises the question, how many people play games, but don't consider themselves gamers when it comes survey time

Hendrixski
May 9th, 2007, 03:37 PM
Buy it or not but that's the way it is.... They will not install Linux if they are using Windows themselfs... they probably wouldn't even know how to install it.

Then someone else will.

Those people don't install Linux, they just talk about how their daddy bought them a new computer. The people who do install linux talk about business, about ethics, about avoiding vendor-lock-in, about technological autonomy and so on.

1 gamer = 10 computers?? 20 maybe?? 30 at most??
* Peugot Citroen = 20,000 desktop computers .... that are switching to Novell Linux
* France = government offices are switching several thousand computers to Linux
* Cuba & Brazil swithing to Linux = millions of computer
* OLPC = millions of computers
* etc. etc.

Those people couldn't give a flying _______ about gaming, and they equal many many more computers than a few lamers.

aysiu
May 9th, 2007, 03:40 PM
Buy it or not but that's the way it is.... They will not install Linux if they are using Windows themselfs... they probably wouldn't even know how to install it.
Well, there are plenty of gamers on this forum who use Linux, so I don't think that's a problem. There are also plenty of non-gamers here.

Would gaining more gamers help? Certainly. But so would gaining the CEO of a business, a school superintended, a government official, a Hollywood movie star, or a graphic designer.

The vast majority of desktop Linux users (gamers or not) are early adopters and will have influence on family and friends.


This also includes console gamers, but last year PC game sales alone were almost $1Billion. According to the Tech Report article here ( http://techreport.com/onearticle.x/12318 ), it appears that PC game sales are having a major rebound this year, and it is not just a fluke.

I'm not a major gamer like I used to be, but I still see the importance of gaming. Don't just dismiss it because you think you're above gaming. I probably don't care about some of the software that is important to you, but I'm not crying about it. No one is dismissing gaming. I'm just trying to put it in perspective.

2006 US PC gaming software sales - $970 million
2006 US console gaming software sales - $6.43 billion (http://www.npd.com/press/releases/press_070119.html)
2007 first quarter revenue for Vista and Office 2007 - $14.4 billion

Gaming is big. I'm not dismissing it. Other things are much, much bigger. You know most people and businesses at this point are still using Windows 2000 or XP and an earlier version of Microsoft Office, and Microsoft is still raking in $14.4 billion in the first quarter alone for Vista and Office 2007. (http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070427-vista-office-2007-drive-record-profits-for-microsoft.html)

You could also think about it this way: there are 300 million people in the US, and most games cost about $50. So either 1 out of 15 people is buying one game each... or it's even less than 1 out of 15 who are buying more than one game each. 1 out of 15 is significant, but it's not as big as you think. I won't dismiss it, but I won't say it's the biggest thing holding back the Linux desktop either.

MOS95B
May 9th, 2007, 03:44 PM
Actually, the original question had nothing to do with "What do users want" it was...

I just been wondering what other users have found that windows is able to do that linux (more specifically ubuntu) cant do...

so far the only thing i have found that i cant do anymore is gaming and a few online videos dont work sometimes

also, add anything to the list that makes one better or worse than the other, such as linux being practically virus free

So, how many people play games, who installs *nix and why, who recommends *nix and why, etc have nothing to do with the question. Ubuntu, and *nix in general doesn't like to play games.

Henry Rayker
May 9th, 2007, 03:49 PM
I'll jump into this one, what the heck. Gamers are not a majority of users. But for those users, it is the reason they would not switch. It's one of the reasons I didn't for so long.

And when people ask me, that's the first thing I bring up. "Do you like to play a lot of games?" If yes, then stay with Windows. If not, give Ubuntu a try. You'll likely find an program that will do what you want

For me personally, the only thing I've found that windows will do that Linux won't is run a program called Pepakura . So, that's installed on my Windows box.

So, even though the user-base might be small compared to overall users, I'd still have to put high-tech gaming as an important consideration as to what Linux can't do.

Here's an interesting read... http://www.seopher.com/articles/xp_over_ubuntu_over_vista Judging by this one article, I would call the author at least a power user (MSDN Sub). Raises the question, how many people play games, but don't consider themselves gamers when it comes survey time

Honestly, I just don't see what is so wrong about advocating a dual boot situation for the gamers. The fault, in my opinion, lies with the gaming industry who, in their multi-billion dollar wisdom don't realize that so many of their users would much rather run on a linux based OS. It makes loads of sense, to me, to put just about every other option ahead of better game support(better wireless support, MUCH needed improvements in laptop support, X not breaking itself on kernel updates or whatever other stuff people have problems with) Until the industry is willing to meet us halfway, I say we shouldn't budge at all... When you are playing games, at most, you may be using an instant messaging client and possibly listening to music via WinAmp or similar, but for a large number of gamers, you are just gaming. I don't see a problem with rebooting to get your gaming fix, then booting back into a reasonable OS for anything else.

The argument that gamers hold the power over more computers than their own is a valid one, but nothing the linux community can fix (aside from, possibly, more strongly advocating the dual boot situation). Honestly, because I am the resident "tweaker" I want MORE of my friends/family to use Ubuntu (or more likely Fedora) because it makes my life MUCH easier. I hate spending an hour rebooting a machine over and over to get updates up-to-date and installing anti-virus, anti-spyware, anti-malware etc (I swear that, as soon as I leave, they uninstall it) just to fix these stupid kinds of issues. Even if I still used Windows 90% of the time, I would prefer that they be on a more stable system.

All this being said, I don't game nearly as often as I used to. My Windows box, for one reason or another, decides it wants to reboot every 15 or 20 minutes...sometimes it'll stay up for an hour or more, but that's rare.

RudolfMDLT
May 9th, 2007, 03:57 PM
1) Sync with Nokia, Sony Ericson and Imate phones
2) Direct X 10
3) Keep hardware sales positive :)

Josh1
May 9th, 2007, 03:59 PM
Bsod? :d

rockhoppr
May 9th, 2007, 04:29 PM
Honestly, I just don't see what is so wrong about advocating a dual boot situation for the gamers.

The problem, I think, is that most people would say..."If I have to run Windows anyway, why not just run that?"


To earlier points, I don't think it makes much sense to debate the actual dollar spent on PC games to determine whether it's important or not. Many PC games are pirated. Many people don't BUY a lot of games in a year but PLAY the ones they have a lot.

And, as someone mentioned, many people play games but are not considered "gamers". Case in point, if my brother-in-law can't play whatever golf game he has on his laptop there's no way he'd ever even consider Linux (or any other platform). This issue affects people's OS decision more than a lot of you give credence to.

EDIT: I'll add my answer to the "what can Windows do....." question: it can garner universal industry support (which kinda covers all the other issues)

aysiu
May 9th, 2007, 04:31 PM
Of course dollars matter. The money made is what drives the industry.

Besides, the piracy argument doesn't hold water because people pirate console games and Microsoft Office as well. It's not only gamers who pirate software.

Josh1
May 9th, 2007, 04:35 PM
Honestly, I just don't see what is so wrong about advocating a dual boot situation for the gamers. The fault, in my opinion, lies with the gaming industry who, in their multi-billion dollar wisdom don't realize that so many of their users would much rather run on a linux based OS.

Because most games run on directx AND they also do not want to spend 3/4 of their time helping Linux users installing their software because they might have tested it on FC, Ubuntu, Debian, whatever but someone might have issues then they have to give a refund since it "doesn't work for my distro of linux".

reya276
May 9th, 2007, 04:36 PM
Yeah the only thing so far that I miss would be using photoshop and dreamwaver CS3. I know that you can probably run these on WINE but will have to wait until they get it working. Also the whole gaming thing is a big part, my brother introduced me to the Fiesty OS because I'm a Web developer/Designer so it's better and more stable for this, but due to the fact that he can't play his Wincrap PC games on this OS he opt not to install it. But he loves Ubuntu and so do I. I'm trying to get my boss to switch all the windows PC's to Ubuntu but he won't budge. I even gave him a cost comparison to switching.

aysiu
May 9th, 2007, 04:37 PM
they also do not want to spend 3/4 of their time helping Linux users installing their software because they might have tested it on FC, Ubuntu, Debian, whatever but someone might have issues then they have to give a refund since it "doesn't work for my distro of linux". That may be their reasoning, but it's just an excuse. If game developers tested their games on Ubuntu only (or any one distro), Linux users and developers would find a way to make that game work on other distros, too. It's the same sorry excuse Michael Dell used to give for not installing Linux (too many distros... which one do I pick?) before making a deal with Mark Shuttleworth to put Ubuntu on.

The DirectX thing is an entirely different story, though.

MOS95B
May 9th, 2007, 04:40 PM
Honestly, I just don't see what is so wrong about advocating a dual boot situation for the gamers.
In my case, greed. Not money greed, but hard drive greed. Why set up a new OS, taking up valuable HD space, when my current setup will do what I need, and let me and the kids play games. Now that I have multiple computers, I have the MS machine for proprietary stuff, and the Ubuntu machine for the other.

That, and I don't know many people that I would trust with a dual boot setup. I don't run with a very high tech crowd, so I tend to recommend what I think would be easiest for them.

aysiu
May 9th, 2007, 04:43 PM
I've spent a lot of time in this thread refuting the idea that gaming is the number one obstacle to Linux desktop adoption and the idea that most people or "everyone" plays PC games.

That said, I do believe that the gaming industry should make an effort to support its Linux users. PC gaming may not be that big (relatively speaking, anyway) in the "real world," but in the Linux world, it is pretty big. In fact, I'd wager to guess that more than 50% of active forum members here PC game.

Josh1
May 9th, 2007, 04:50 PM
That may be their reasoning, but it's just an excuse. If game developers tested their games on Ubuntu only (or any one distro), Linux users and developers would find a way to make that game work on other distros, too. It's the same sorry excuse Michael Dell used to give for not installing Linux (too many distros... which one do I pick?) before making a deal with Mark Shuttleworth to put Ubuntu on.

The DirectX thing is an entirely different story, though.

Very true.

Just throwing numbers around, there is something like 8.5 million (last time blizzard made an announcement) gamers who play World of Warcraft.
One of the most popular topics in the gaming section is getting WoW to work.. and if they did make a linux port, they would probably make more money then Office would in the longer term (Office 2007 for example is a one time payment, where WoW is a one time payment then $20 AUD per month).


But on the other side you have families. One of the major attractions that Microsoft was trying to sell Vista was the security where a parent could limit when their child could use the computer, what they could access and Net Nanny software.
If parents knew that there was an alternative to Windows, and then installed Linux and found out what a great product it was, they would probably tell THEIR friends.. I'm sure that this would spread quickly and attract home users to Ubuntu due to the ease of use (they can even try a live cd without installing anything).

dodgePT
May 9th, 2007, 04:52 PM
I been having some trouble working with subtitles (*.srt/*.sub format), i miss the old windows "subtitle workshop" UI. Tryed several linux softwares, but they seem too much basic for me (subtitle editor for example).

Is there some other software more subtitle workshop look alike?

aysiu
May 9th, 2007, 04:54 PM
I haven't ever used these, but you can try ksubtitle (available in the repositories) or Subtitle Editor (http://kitone.free.fr/subtitleeditor/).

BLTicklemonster
May 9th, 2007, 04:59 PM
It just occurred to me that this thread basically states loudly and clearly exactly what is wrong with hardware and software developers the world over. It's not as much a problem with linux, it's a problem with hardware and software developers not seeing the reality of things.

dodgePT
May 9th, 2007, 05:05 PM
Thanks, i'll try ksubtitle (i already tried subtitle editor, but find it a bit basic and featureless) ;)

Anyway, what i miss most in Windows is vga drivers support (i own an ATI Radeon 9600XT). It's unbelievable how ATI/AMD don't give a *uck about us, linux users. Thanks to the ****** device drivers i have to restart and watch movies in my 42" LCD with windows XP (i had, as most ATI users, great problems in configuring Feisty with beryl and movie playback).
If not for that, i'd erase NTFS partitions and leave Windows XP for good :)
I guess we'll just have to wait for better support :(

Outrunner
May 9th, 2007, 05:10 PM
Well, I can tell you from first hand experience that Windows can multitask a bunch a viruses at once. Dunno if any linux distro can do that!

EDIT: by the way, I was serious about that, you know...

OffHand
May 9th, 2007, 05:15 PM
Well, there are plenty of gamers on this forum who use Linux, so I don't think that's a problem. There are also plenty of non-gamers here.

Would gaining more gamers help? Certainly. But so would gaining the CEO of a business, a school superintended, a government official, a Hollywood movie star, or a graphic designer.

The vast majority of desktop Linux users (gamers or not) are early adopters and will have influence on family and friends.

No one is dismissing gaming. I'm just trying to put it in perspective.

2006 US PC gaming software sales - $970 million
2006 US console gaming software sales - $6.43 billion (http://www.npd.com/press/releases/press_070119.html)
2007 first quarter revenue for Vista and Office 2007 - $14.4 billion

Gaming is big. I'm not dismissing it. Other things are much, much bigger. You know most people and businesses at this point are still using Windows 2000 or XP and an earlier version of Microsoft Office, and Microsoft is still raking in $14.4 billion in the first quarter alone for Vista and Office 2007. (http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070427-vista-office-2007-drive-record-profits-for-microsoft.html)

You could also think about it this way: there are 300 million people in the US, and most games cost about $50. So either 1 out of 15 people is buying one game each... or it's even less than 1 out of 15 who are buying more than one game each. 1 out of 15 is significant, but it's not as big as you think. I won't dismiss it, but I won't say it's the biggest thing holding back the Linux desktop either.

Yeah we know that. You are starting to repeat yourself. Lets put it this way: you think what you like to think and I'll do the same. Then both of us will be happy campers :)

aysiu
May 9th, 2007, 05:15 PM
Thanks, i'll try ksubtitle (i already tried subtitle editor, but find it a bit basic and featureless) ;) If you do find a good subtitle editor, please let us know. That way anyone else searching for one might stumble upon this thread and know what's good.


It just occurred to me that this thread basically states loudly and clearly exactly what is wrong with hardware and software developers the world over. It's not as much a problem with linux, it's a problem with hardware and software developers not seeing the reality of things. Well, Linux is a lot like a stage actor on Broadway. She may be renowned in the stage world (have won Tony awards, etc.) and may be a brilliant actor, but "no one" will have heard of her. They'll all have heard of Keanu Reeves and Tori Spelling, though, who both get better "third-party support" than unknown-stage-actor-famous-in-the-theater-world.

It doesn't mean Keanu and Tori are better actors, but they get more exposure, more "support," more money, and more opportunities.

rockhoppr
May 9th, 2007, 05:35 PM
Of course dollars matter. The money made is what drives the industry.

Besides, the piracy argument doesn't hold water because people pirate console games and Microsoft Office as well. It's not only gamers who pirate software.

I think you misunderstood my point. Earlier posts were debating exactly how many thousands, millions, billions, trillions of dollars were at play with the PC video game industry. I think that's somewhat irrelevant when you discuss WHY people use their computers.

It's not how much that people spend that matters....it's what they use.

I may have only bought one $40 game last year but if I can't play that on Linux then it's a deal-killer.

forrestcupp
May 9th, 2007, 05:49 PM
I think you misunderstood my point. Earlier posts were debating exactly how many thousands, millions, billions, trillions of dollars were at play with the PC video game industry. I think that's somewhat irrelevant when you discuss WHY people use their computers.

It's not how much that people spend that matters....it's what they use.

I may have only bought one $40 game last year but if I can't play that on Linux then it's a deal-killer.

That's a good point. I haven't bought a game in a few years, but I still would like to be able to play the games that I have. Just because my dollars are not included in the statistics does not mean that I am not included in the company of people who would like to be able to play my games in Linux.

It doesn't seem like it would be too hard to create games that are compatible, especially if they were written for opengl. Just look at all of the Loki installers that have been made to make certain games run natively. The binaries would need to be ported, but the content wouldn't need to be changed. If companies wanted to, they could spend a little extra time up front for cross compatibility, then it would be a breeze to compile. Just look at some of the open source game engines, such as Ogre. You write one code, and that same code can be compiled on Windows or Linux. So it could be possible with a small amount of effort. Some companies like ID realize the importance and make it easier.

stchman
May 9th, 2007, 07:33 PM
Besides gaming (FPS, RTS, RPG, etc.) I find nothing WIndows can do Ubuntu cannot do as well.

Since my switch over to Ubuntu I am always surprised at all the cool software from the repositories.

Things I used to so in XP that I now do in Ubuntu.

- Rip CDs to MP3s
- Rip DVDs (the ones I bought)
- Surf Internet
- Check email
- Burn CDs and DVDs (audio CD, video DVD, data both)
- Programming is WAY better with Ubuntu as all the compilers are included, text editors w/syntax highlighting and debugger
- Update my website
- Play DVDs
- Create PDF files
- Run office apps
- Torrent downloads


What windows is better at than Ubuntu
- Games
- Getting viruses and spyware
- Crappy lite shareware apps
- Bloated installs
- Winmodems (who uses dialup anyway?)
- Soaking money out of you

There may be some things that windows is better at like ipod management and the disc manager with XP is pretty good. I also think Flash works better with XP.

As far as printers I stick with HP printer that have a good postscript functionality.

stchman
May 9th, 2007, 07:42 PM
I'm finding this discussion about gaming not that big based on "that link" a little annoying.

A survey based on 3000 Americans? Come on. That's hardly a survey.

What can't i do in Linux?

- Engineering Software - CAD, Xilinx, Modelsim, Multisim, Solidworks
-Use my Epson 4180
-Convert a selection of mp3's from a large collection for an mp3 player in a simple to use manner i.e artist/album. Not folder name
-Decent graphics gaming
-Foobar2000
-Virtualdubmod(at least the last time i checked)
-Winrar(someone please recommend a decent substitute)
-have that most loved blue screen

I will give you the gaming

Rar files File Roller has a rar plugin to unpack rar files. Rar is retarded, just use .zip or .tar for compression.

VLC will sort your mp3s by folder, title, artist, etc.

As far as your scanner, blame Epson for not making a Linux driver.

There are a lot of free video editors for Linux (Kino is one of them)

There are a multitude of media players for Ubuntu (VLC, Totem, Rythmbox, Gxine, Mplayer, etc.). Remember the open source community invented .ogg and .flac.

stchman
May 9th, 2007, 07:49 PM
RAR. Are you sure that's in the add/remove? I found it in synaptic and it's command line based

I wasn't looking for a bulk renamer. Just something that can scan my mp3 collection for Artists/Albums and then allow me to browse that created list so that i can reencode them for my little mp3 player. 320Kbps ogg/mp3/wma and flac will either it up my mp3 player or just not work. Something like "Sound Juicer" (i think. not in Ubuntu ATM) but with a media library browser

There is a .rar plugin for File Roller and Ark. Go to Synaptic and use the search function. Rar files are silly.

stchman
May 9th, 2007, 07:52 PM
My biggest issue would be Linux' inability to run software that updates firmware:

- a Linksys VOIP router a have needed a new firmware version, hence, I had to go to a friend with a Windows machine....
- my mp3 player (Trekstor Vibez) needs Windows to get its firmware updated
- my Samsung DVD rewriter can't do without Windows if it wants to run the latest firmware that is

Need I carry on? (I'm not even talking about things like fixing mp3 headers or rewriting mp3 streams which foobar2000 is good at)

I have a Packet8 VOIP adapter and Linksys router that I updated the firmware using Linux. Most companies have a .bin file that you can use.

As far as your mp3 player needing windows what if you had a Mac?

forrestcupp
May 9th, 2007, 08:00 PM
Rar files File Roller has a rar plugin to unpack rar files. Rar is retarded, just use .zip or .tar for compression.

All well and good, unless you need to uncompress a file that was compressed with RAR.


There are a lot of free video editors for Linux (Kino is one of them)
Kino is pretty lame, and so are most of the other offerings. Cinelerra is the only halfway decent choice and they won't put it in the repos for some reason.


There are a multitude of media players for Ubuntu (VLC, Totem, Rythmbox, Gxine, Mplayer, etc.). Remember the open source community invented .ogg and .flac.
These are all great until you come across a website that requires Windows Media Player to play their media.

stchman
May 9th, 2007, 08:03 PM
Thanks, i'll try ksubtitle (i already tried subtitle editor, but find it a bit basic and featureless) ;)

Anyway, what i miss most in Windows is vga drivers support (i own an ATI Radeon 9600XT). It's unbelievable how ATI/AMD don't give a *uck about us, linux users. Thanks to the ****** device drivers i have to restart and watch movies in my 42" LCD with windows XP (i had, as most ATI users, great problems in configuring Feisty with beryl and movie playback).
If not for that, i'd erase NTFS partitions and leave Windows XP for good :)
I guess we'll just have to wait for better support :(

ATI has drivers for there video cards for linux.

BuffaloX
May 9th, 2007, 08:05 PM
So a gamer who has non-gaming friends and family won't switch the non-gaming friends and family to desktop Linux because the gamer can't play all the games she wants... even though the friends and family would be all too happy using desktop Linux?

I don't buy that argument at all.

And, P.S., that's not the argument that the "gaming is huge" people have been making up to this point in the thread. If you want to twist it to be a "trickle down" effect, that's a new position.

I also made that point, but maybe you missed that...
You don't buy it...
But I maintain computers for 4 persons and I'm a gamer.
They go with what I recommend.
You do the math on that.

Many Computer "trend-setters" are gamers in my experience.
My brother in law has used Linux for some time, because he used it at the University
But he was totally unconvincing about how cool Linux really is.
Hes skills are superior, but he is no trend-setter.

BTW even Stallman has realized the importance of gaming in Linux.

stchman
May 9th, 2007, 08:31 PM
You guys are talking if gaming is the most IMPORTANT aspect of PC OSs!!!! I like to game, but it is less than 10% of my time on a PC.

That is why I dual boot between Edgy/XP.

FWIW, XP is always going to be king of gaming. I can't see M$ porting DX9/10 over to *ix. M$ knows they have a foothold on gaming.

As far as other apps, if you want to spend a lot of $$$$$$$$$ the M$ Windows versions are a better and more polished. Let me see, I could get Windows XP Pro ($140) + Office 2007($350) and Photoshop ($900) or have Ubuntu ($0), Openoffice ($0), and The GIMP ($0). Lets see ~$1400 or $0, not a huge decision.

Not to mention all the other software that costs $$$$ that a lot of people pirate.

DJ_Max
May 9th, 2007, 09:08 PM
You guys are talking if gaming is the most IMPORTANT aspect of PC OSs!!!! I like to game, but it is less than 10% of my time on a PC.



As statistics show, most people chose a PC according to how well the next version of Half-Life will look on it. Just because you don't like to game (neither do I) doesn't mean that the rest of people don't like to dabble in a industry that's second only to the movie Industry.

I would say gaming and media.

As far as the GIMP over photoshop comment, how many schools you know teach GIMP as opposed to schools that use Adobe projects. Same with Microsoft Office over OpenOffice.

aysiu
May 9th, 2007, 09:38 PM
As far as the GIMP over photoshop comment, how many schools you know teach GIMP as opposed to schools that use Adobe projects. Same with Microsoft Office over OpenOffice. And how many programs you learn in school are the same ones you end up using twenty years later? For me, none.

DJ_Max
May 9th, 2007, 09:41 PM
And how many programs you learn in school are the same ones you end up using twenty years later? For me, none.

My mistake, I should have restricted it to college. When you go for a major in web design, they don't teach you anything opensource, it's usually Adobe. When you go for drafting they don't teach Qcad, they teach AutoCad or Microstation.

I'm referring to careers where these applications are in use. May I ask what was your major in college?

aysiu
May 9th, 2007, 09:54 PM
I majored in English. My papers were all typed in whatever word processing program was on the Mac Classic (I forget what it was, but it wasn't Microsoft Office).

DJ_Max
May 9th, 2007, 10:02 PM
Probably Appleworks if you're talking OS 8 & 9. But MacWrite if you're going way back, 6 & 7.

But I was talking more on the technical side, where there are standard tools in doing your particular job. Which is why I use AutoCAD (Microstation for one project) instead of any Linux compatible application. You would also have a hard time finding a University whose Art department uses a Linux compatible program, it's either OS X or Windows. Heck, the secretaries, and accountants in my office all use programs they were trained on, MS stuff.

Also, did they teach you the program you used, or was it simply your choice to use that program?

aysiu
May 9th, 2007, 10:13 PM
It was OS 8 or 9, so it was probably Appleworks. That sounds right. (Random side note: I played a lot of Risk on that computer--loved that game. My wife and I tried to load Risk on to her Mac OS X Powerbook, but it didn't work for some reason...)

No, I wasn't trained on any programs while in college. English majors generally aren't trained on anything technical (only abstract "critical thinking" skills). I think I just figured out Appleworks by myself more or less.

As for art, I know what you're talking about. My wife just finished her graphic design studies, and she needed to use Flash and CS2 for most of her classes. Having GIMP, Scribus, Inkscape, and F4L would not have cut it. But those are special situations (art, architecture, web design). There are a lot of college majors that'd be fine with Ubuntu's offerings.

DJ_Max
May 9th, 2007, 10:24 PM
It was OS 8 or 9, so it was probably Appleworks. That sounds right. (Random side note: I played a lot of Risk on that computer--loved that game. My wife and I tried to load Risk on to her Mac OS X Powerbook, but it didn't work for some reason...)

No, I wasn't trained on any programs while in college. English majors generally aren't trained on anything technical (only abstract "critical thinking" skills). I think I just figured out Appleworks by myself more or less.

As for art, I know what you're talking about. My wife just finished her graphic design studies, and she needed to use Flash and CS2 for most of her classes. Having GIMP, Scribus, Inkscape, and F4L would not have cut it. But those are special situations (art, architecture, web design). There are a lot of college majors that'd be fine with Ubuntu's offerings.

Yeah, that's what I was referring to, a lot of software that only runs on Windows or OS X are industry standard.

I've never played Risk but playing older games on newer software can be a task, but I'm sure it's possible.

<Joke>
Oh, and your wife had to learn Flash, how did your marriage cope? </Joke>

aysiu
May 9th, 2007, 10:27 PM
Certainly, Ubuntu can't fill every single niche. All I know is that more people could be using it (and be happy with it) than are currently use it.

Our marriage was actually fine, but for a while... my wife wasn't. Learning Flash was tough, but she's actually grown to love Flash and Actionscript. I... still hate Flash. I will probably use HTML and CSS until they've become deprecated to the point of not being supported by any major browser.

awakatanka
May 9th, 2007, 10:37 PM
Buy all kind of pc hardware, install the drivers and software and work, if it doesn't work under your windows you can get help on a helpdesk/store our can get a refund if its really doesn't work.

DoctorMO
May 9th, 2007, 11:03 PM
a lot of software that only runs on Windows or OS X are industry standard

The industry is wrong.

Fittersman
May 10th, 2007, 02:11 AM
All well and good, unless you need to uncompress a file that was compressed with RAR.

Kino is pretty lame, and so are most of the other offerings. Cinelerra is the only halfway decent choice and they won't put it in the repos for some reason.

These are all great until you come across a website that requires Windows Media Player to play their media.

uncompress a RAR archive with ARK

Quillz
May 10th, 2007, 03:09 AM
The industry is wrong.
That might be so, but when Photoshop only runs on Windows and OS X natively, it's going to be hard to convince the industry of their error in judgment.

jerrylamos
May 10th, 2007, 03:24 AM
I see the opposite, tons of stuff that runs on Linux that isn't available for Windows. For starters, can you run CD Live Windows? Can you run Windows with a CD and a USB pen drive for permanent files? Take the same portable CD & USB setup to different computers (there's 5 computers on this LAN, plus my daughter's house has 3, etc.) I've a system that's quad booted with four different systems, would that work well with Vista + XP + whatever?

Also, this one here's a 1 ghz Pentium 3 with 512 mb of memory, a 1280x1024 LCD which runs nice and fast, instant screen response, internet videos just fine (I do applications, not games). Care to try Vista on this machine?

Cheers, Jerry:)

DoctorMO
May 10th, 2007, 04:12 AM
That might be so, but when Photoshop only runs on Windows and OS X natively, it's going to be hard to convince the industry of their error in judgment.

Don't really have to, they will change their hearts and their strategies when the changes overwhelm them. unlike most I consider free software adoption to be a foregone conclusion; adobe would be foolish if it isn't working on linux versions or doesn't keep linux versions already.

Just because adobe isn't selling photoshop for linux , doesn't mean it doesn't exist. we're just waiting for the day when adobe can make enough money to make selling it worthwhile.

"Until that day, I guess we stay, doing what we do, screwin' who we screw..."

BuffaloX
May 10th, 2007, 09:06 AM
You guys are talking if gaming is the most IMPORTANT aspect of PC OSs!!!! I like to game, but it is less than 10% of my time on a PC.

That is why I dual boot between Edgy/XP.

FWIW, XP is always going to be king of gaming. I can't see M$ porting DX9/10 over to *ix. M$ knows they have a foothold on gaming.

As far as other apps, if you want to spend a lot of $$$$$$$$$ the M$ Windows versions are a better and more polished. Let me see, I could get Windows XP Pro ($140) + Office 2007($350) and Photoshop ($900) or have Ubuntu ($0), Openoffice ($0), and The GIMP ($0). Lets see ~$1400 or $0, not a huge decision.

Not to mention all the other software that costs $$$$ that a lot of people pirate.

You dual boot to play games, which means games are important to you too...

Gaming is not the most important thing, I think that would be Internet and office functions.
Those work great for me. The only thing that prevents me from removing Windows entirely, are a couple of games I like.
Gaming is what is most lacking in Linux, I know for some it is other stuff.
I suppose many of us "Old Windows users" have some app we miss in Linux, and my guess is that the most common reason to dual boot is games.

This is from another thread, which was mainly about the feasibility of a Linux games console.


Microsoft thinks gaming is important.
Thats why they made DirectX, even back when Windows didn't have a proper standard for scanners. They concentrated more on gaming than an API for scanners.
The attempt to lock gamers into Vista with DirectX 10 is also an example.

The console industry is at least 30 years old, so I wouldn't consider it exactly young.
But it has always been a very dynamic industry, the margin for error is small, because it's an expensive industry to enter.

A more interesting question IMO, would be if it's possible to make an impact in the console market with Linux, and what would it take.
Maybe the OLPC could serve as a model for what's possible.

Lenovo could make a modified OLPC, with better specs, and launch it as a gaming console.
But they would need some gaming companies to launch games at the release date, to make it have any chance at all.

On the Importance of gaming:

Sorry to generalize like this.
But all those that say games doesn't matter, don't know the consumer industry.

There has never been a really successful personal computer without good games.
The market is changing, so maybe this situation will also change.
The Internet and multimedia may have moved games as a priority down a notch.

Below is an estimate for a generalized priority list, of what a computer should be able to do.
If any of these fails to work, the system will by most users be considered incomplete or defunct.
Individuals may have different priorities, but this is an average.

Percieved list:

1: Internet: Home banking ( java ), you-tube TV/Radio ( flash and Media codecs ), e-mail, shopping, ordinary browsing.
2: Home Office: printers, scanners, word processing, spreadsheets, databases, calendars, taxes,
3: Hobby activities, could be whatever and the importance vary hugely.
4: M&M Music & Movies: codecs, drivers, surround sound, media players, TV connections, remote controls.
5: Gaming: 3D sound, fast graphics, game controls.

The interesting thing is, that consumer behavior is inconsistent between what the consumer think he/she need/want, and the actual use of the computer.
Most buyers of a new PC do NOT consider gaming very important.
But in actual use it is.

Marketing psychology explains this as an ordinary behavioral pattern.
The user/customer will attempt to rationalize in a way that validates it the most.

If we pretend the above list is fact, and put games as the 5th most important thing for an OS,
We realize that the other four points are handled very well.
Games are the least important, but the most lacking.
Most people want ALL options,

Lack of games = lack of options = simply lacking.

Henry Rayker
May 10th, 2007, 10:10 AM
My mistake, I should have restricted it to college. When you go for a major in web design, they don't teach you anything opensource, it's usually Adobe. When you go for drafting they don't teach Qcad, they teach AutoCad or Microstation.

I'm referring to careers where these applications are in use. May I ask what was your major in college?

I major in Computer Engineering. Every single app we've used in my upper level classes has been in Linux. gcc compiler for our work in C; Cadence for CAD work; HSPICE for simulations etc. etc. etc. The only things we've used in my college career that were linux only were 1) Some stupid Lego robotics app in the very first lab my very first semester, I guess to give some people an intro to WAY-dumbed down programming 2) the CodeWarrior IDE (but the kicker is that it was for the Motorolla 6812 microcontroller) However, aside from those two, everything has been Linux only, or at very least, Linux-available (like suggesting Eclipse for Java development -- although, I just stuck with nano and the command line)

MarkX
May 10th, 2007, 11:05 AM
Linux distros don't seem to do a basic tour for noobs (I think) who are using a computer for the first time.
Am I right in thinking that any puter noob who gets an Ubuntu box from Dell won't have ANY instructions as to how to actually use it?

mrgnash
May 10th, 2007, 12:41 PM
o yeah, i forgot about the winmodems, i tried so hard to get mine to work on here with no avail, thankfully my dad got sick of us being on the internet all the time (he couldnt use the phone) so he got highspeed :D

and about the videos, there are only a few that dont work, the major sites like youtube and stuff like that all work, its just some of the lesser known sites (cant recall any at the moment, like i said, very few) that have videos that dont work.

stage6.divx.com seems to be one of the ones that doesn't work.

Shibby73
May 10th, 2007, 12:54 PM
I just been wondering what other users have found that windows is able to do that linux (more specifically ubuntu) cant do...

so far the only thing i have found that i cant do anymore is gaming and a few online videos dont work sometimes

also, add anything to the list that makes one better or worse than the other, such as linux being practically virus free

How about get my Sprint Pantech 500 EVDO aircard to work.
If I had that then I'd reformat my harddrive on my laptop and reinstall for a dual boot win (for work) and linux (for anything else). Also haven't seen much multimedia stuff, although your comparing windows to linux I think we should also compare to macintosh. While very expensive they do come with some impressive out of the box software (each can be upgraded to professional versions as well).

If I was made of money I'd buy a Mac and triple boot. I am not so I am working with my 2yr old laptop and tinkering with Linux a little (but it is easy to mess up linux when tinkering just as windows is easy to mess up when doing the same kind of powerful tweeks and installs).

Overall if you want free you must settle for less.

hatstand
May 10th, 2007, 02:11 PM
Skype video
MSN messenger Video

I don't care if there are linux or Open Source alternatives: you try getting my 60 year old mum to install them.

Football website streaming videos. I'm an ex-pat and need to see my team on the superwebhighwaynet, but get this message from the website: "You MUST have Windows and Windows Media Player, you twit: who do you think you are trying to escape the greasy mitts of corporate greed and monopoly abuse?"

I did write to complain, asking for at least Mozilla support, but they replied with "**** Off, commie"

Extreme Coder
May 10th, 2007, 02:35 PM
@hatstand:
Why didn't you use browser identification to fool them? Works for me on such nasty sites.

Extreme Coder

thommango
May 10th, 2007, 02:40 PM
It can work out of the box with a wider variety of hardware. That's the deal breaker for many users. Just finding a wireless card with linux drivers is difficult. video drivers - same problem. I know that people say that vista has more problems, but we all know that vendors are motivated to solve those ones.

It's a chicken and egg problem. You can't get the community if you don't have the hardware, and you can't get the hardware drivers if there's no community. It will be solved, but it will take a lot of time. I myself, have just switched back to XP because I've got too many peripherals that Linux doesn't support without many hours of learning and a lot of luck.

Best of luck. I'm out until another release or two passes by.

hatstand
May 10th, 2007, 02:44 PM
@hatstand:
Why didn't you use browser identification to fool them? Works for me on such nasty sites.

Extreme Coder

Do tell more. A thread link would be handy, though I am searching now as well.

Never found browser identification in Firefox.

brim4brim
May 10th, 2007, 02:49 PM
I cant professionally speak on this because Im not a professional. The general consensus I get from those who are is this:
"Anything you can do with Photoshop, you can do with GIMP. But like all things in the linux world, its more difficult"
That always makes me laugh.

I think most graphics people are probably frustrated with gimp because its hard to configure and install in windows. I've tried it and its a nightmare compared to photoshops give-me-1000s-of-dollars-and-it-will-just-work thing theyve got going on.

If it WAS a pro, I would deal with gimp though, and save my money.

Any argument I've seen from people who don't like Gimp can generally be brought back to I used photoshop first so I'm used to it and too stubborn to change.

hatstand
May 10th, 2007, 02:53 PM
@hatstand:
Why didn't you use browser identification to fool them? Works for me on such nasty sites.

Extreme Coder

http://chrispederick.com/work/useragentswitcher/

Thanks. That's another on reason off the list for keeping a windows partition.

jcconnor
May 10th, 2007, 07:14 PM
I've been following this thread for a while and it looks like it's coming down to this - Linux can't play Windows games very well if at all and that is stopping widespread adoption of Linux. But couldn't the question - what can't Macs/OS X do? be answered with the same thing - Macs/OS X can't play Windows games very well if at all and that is slowing down the widespread adoption of Macs.

I don't think anyone would say that they aren't buying a Mac because they can't play WoW or Screaming Meemies or Thundercrash Killer Cats or whatever Windows based game is out there that they want to play. I think most folks that don't switch to Macs do so because they have an invested learning curve in XP or the cost of ownership is higher rather than "my game won't play".

I know that for myself the initial cost of ownership has stopped me from adopting Mac/OS X. The initial learning curve stopped me from adopting Linux until now. Ubuntu and these forums decreased somewhat the cost of that learning curve (time is money).

The vast majority of folks probably fall into one of those camps - the cost in terms of time or money is higher than their inertia - not the fact that they can't play Hellborne Acid Fracture Squad.

John

aysiu
May 10th, 2007, 07:29 PM
Linux can't play Windows games very well if at all and that is stopping widespread adoption of Linux. No one has provided any facts to back up that assertion.

robcarr2
May 10th, 2007, 07:47 PM
I do quite a lot of recording and unfortunately free tools dont tend to do the job for me (e.g. audacity), I like doing a bit of gaming too, but that is about all I use Windows for.

robcarr2
May 10th, 2007, 07:52 PM
Any argument I've seen from people who don't like Gimp can generally be brought back to I used photoshop first so I'm used to it and too stubborn to change.

I'd say that sums up my feelings on GIMP.

Only joking, I do find GIMP more difficult to get around though due to me being so used to Photoshop, there isn't much GIMP cant do though compared to Photoshop, you just gotta know your way around it. Unfortunately, I dont :(

BuffaloX
May 10th, 2007, 10:07 PM
No one has provided any facts to back up that assertion.

Depends on what you call facts.
Some facts I've stated, I consider so obvious I do not believe people would actually disagree, if needed I can back them all up.

Here is a short list of some of my previous statements, does anyone really disagree with this:

Facts:

0: There are many great "casual" games for Linux, but almost none for intermediate to advanced gamers.

1: MS consider gaming important, I'm pretty sure they have more research than anybody else to back that up.

2: Gaming industry is multi b/m-illion $ . ( $1.4 billion in US alone in 2005 )
I couldn't find reliable numbers for 2006, the same source, put them at just below 2005, but at the same time claimed it was an increase compared to 2005. I guess online sales (like Wild Tangent) was not included.
The number is far less than for consoles, but some people must be buying PC games.

http://www.physorg.com/news67831276.html

3: PC Games are NOT console games. Using Linux and buying a console will not replace PC games.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/23/technology/23gaming.html?ex=1178942400&en=f49edfd9691adaec&ei=5070

4: Macs has had enormous problems getting a solid foothold. Even when they were superior to windows in things like Graphics and music, and they offered cheap models, they have never gotten anywhere near Windows popularity, on the brink of bankruptcy, they were rescued by MS. The Mac was always and is still a niche product, a fiasco compared to Apple II. It has never reached sufficient success to be recognized by the majority of the industry, both hardware and software.

5: If people have to change their OS, ditch their old programs and learn lots of new stuff,they want more, not less. Linux offer more in some areas but also less in others, like games.

6: The typical PC hardcore gamer delve deeply into the system, to get the most out of their games.
They follow hardware trends closely, often build their own systems, and generally know what's hot, and what's not, in the PC scene. This experience often make them the preferred consultant for the rest of the family and friends.

Interpretation of the facts:
1: Lack of gaming is slowing Linux adoption ( not stopping it ), the degree is hard to determine exactly.
2: Games are not thee most important thing (obviously), but is still crucial if Linux aims to become "mainstream", and especially to fix bug #1.

godssiren
May 10th, 2007, 11:01 PM
I don't think gaming is that important to most people, only the very loud and the early adopters. once we're past this phase you'll find most new users don't play games or find the games available in Linux to be superior in the types of games they play (puzzle games etc)

I have to disagree with this one. I don't know what you mean by loud(though volume seems irrelevant), and I am fairly new to Linux, so I don't think that I would be considered an early adopter, but there is a significant number of computer users out there (especially in the newer generations) who are primarily turning away from Linux since it won't support many games out there. Granted, this is usually a bigger issue for people who are 35 and under, however, that is the generation that is going to end up using Linux and carrying it into the next century. Using Open Office and other applications through Linux are great and help us be productive (everyone has to make a living somehow), but all computers started out as assistants to our work before the world of gaming became as big as it is, and I think this is a direction any OS has to travel eventually in order to compete on a home user level.

I know that Wine(i think that's it) and other programs are supposed to be able to run many windows programs, but for someone who has 6-7 gaming platforms in her home(me) from the last 20 yrs, I can tell you that although it's not a life's necessity, it's a lot of fun and I would miss it a lot. I chose to dual boot because of it. (Among the people I know who game, this is also a deterrent from going to Apple)

As for Linux having many games like puzzle games, that's great, but what if I want to play something a little more complex than a puzzle game or solitaire? I am still learning about Linux, but I would love to learn enough so that I could help Linux distributions change this. In part, this also lies on the companies that make the games. If Linux keeps growing at the rate it is now, eventually it will be a big enough competitor, that either the current game companies will add it as a compatible format for their games, or new companies will form to create similar gaming experiences for Linux.

godssiren
May 10th, 2007, 11:15 PM
I don't think anyone would say that they aren't buying a Mac because they can't play WoW or Screaming Meemies or Thundercrash Killer Cats or whatever Windows based game is out there that they want to play. I think most folks that don't switch to Macs do so because they have an invested learning curve in XP or the cost of ownership is higher rather than "my game won't play".
John

I happen to be a bit of a geek gamer-wise, and thus, have a lot of friends who are the same. and although price is always a factor in one way or another. Most of them come to the same conclusion... if they could buy a mac or a PC for the same price, they still couldn't run their games on a Mac, so they wouldn't get one. But when it comes down to it, since a Mac and a PC can do almost anything else the same, word processing, email, spreadsheets, (Mac does have a better system for graphics, but less choices for software)... so what stands it apart? ...Mac's cost more, PCs have more/better games available.
... sad... I need to learn more linux so I can write new games for it! ^_^

robenroute
May 11th, 2007, 07:33 AM
I have a Packet8 VOIP adapter and Linksys router that I updated the firmware using Linux. Most companies have a .bin file that you can use.

As far as your mp3 player needing windows what if you had a Mac?

Excuse my ignorance, but how would a .bin file work? And, as far as the Mac goes.... sure, that would work (but not for me wallet!) ;)

steven8
May 11th, 2007, 07:49 AM
I love Linux and gave up Windows because I do not agree with the path Microsoft has taken. However, much as I would like to, we can't convert everyone to the Linux way of doing things. We should accept them in, help them where needed and hope they decide to shake off the Microsoft shackles.

However:

We can't make people change. If they want to play games based on the Windows system, then let them. It's okay. The whole concept the Ubuntu community is not to tell people to change, but to accept people for what they are - at least the way I see the concept. If a person likes Linux for some things, and Windows for others, then they can dual boot. Nothing wrong with that.

Hendrixski
May 11th, 2007, 03:31 PM
Depends on what you call facts.

1: MS consider gaming important, I'm pretty sure they have more research than anybody else to back that up.

2: Gaming industry is multi b/m-illion $ . ( $1.4 billion in US alone in 2005 )


Those facts were covered earlier in the thread, and aysui is correct in asserting that they do not back up the notion that gaming is important to Linux adoption.

$1.4 billion is a barely noticeable number compared to the amount that businesses spend on software. It's a drop in the bucket compared to the total market share of database software, or Business Intelligence software. The future of Linux adoption is not in greasy teenagers who play games, it's in big businesses that switch to Linux a few thousand computers at a time.

Somehow I can't imagine a fortune 500 CEO being excited about shooting alien zombies. But if he learns that he can save his company millions of dollars by switching from Windows to Linux, he'll be VERY excited.

stchman
May 11th, 2007, 10:02 PM
All well and good, unless you need to uncompress a file that was compressed with RAR.

Kino is pretty lame, and so are most of the other offerings. Cinelerra is the only halfway decent choice and they won't put it in the repos for some reason.

These are all great until you come across a website that requires Windows Media Player to play their media.

I said the rar plugin for File Roller and ARK allows you to UNCOMPRESS the rar file. I guess we got mixed up on unpack vs. uncompress. I have several .rar files that I can unpack using Linux. BTW, WinRAR is not a free program as the folks that make it want money.

I have no experience with Kino except the few reviews I have read.

I have yet to come across a website that specifically states "Windows Media Player required". What would a person that owned a Mac do? Please give me a URL to these sites. I do know that Flash works better under Windows than Linux, but that is improving.

stchman
May 11th, 2007, 10:09 PM
As statistics show, most people chose a PC according to how well the next version of Half-Life will look on it. Just because you don't like to game (neither do I) doesn't mean that the rest of people don't like to dabble in a industry that's second only to the movie Industry.

I would say gaming and media.

As far as the GIMP over photoshop comment, how many schools you know teach GIMP as opposed to schools that use Adobe projects. Same with Microsoft Office over OpenOffice.

You use the word MOST. Define MOST. I define that to be around 80% or more. So you say that 80%+ of the PC buying folks are VERY concerned with how their systems will game? I very much disagree with your statement.

As far as media playing I find that Ubuntu is as good if not better at playing multimedia than Windows.

You have heard of GIMPshop? That rearranges the menus to duplicate the Photoshop menus. The menus are what throw people off of using The GIMP. I do find the menus of The GIMP confusing at first but I am used to them.

stchman
May 11th, 2007, 10:12 PM
uncompress a RAR archive with ARK

Yes, only after the rar plugin gotten from Synaptic for both Ark and File Roller.

stchman
May 11th, 2007, 10:15 PM
You dual boot to play games, which means games are important to you too...

Gaming is not the most important thing, I think that would be Internet and office functions.
Those work great for me. The only thing that prevents me from removing Windows entirely, are a couple of games I like.
Gaming is what is most lacking in Linux, I know for some it is other stuff.
I suppose many of us "Old Windows users" have some app we miss in Linux, and my guess is that the most common reason to dual boot is games.

This is from another thread, which was mainly about the feasibility of a Linux games console.



If we pretend the above list is fact, and put games as the 5th most important thing for an OS,
We realize that the other four points are handled very well.
Games are the least important, but the most lacking.
Most people want ALL options,

Lack of games = lack of options = simply lacking.

I do like a few games. I would say that they are somewhat important to me. The only reason I go back to windows is to play a game. EVERYTHING else I use Ubuntu for.

stchman
May 11th, 2007, 10:22 PM
Linux distros don't seem to do a basic tour for noobs (I think) who are using a computer for the first time.
Am I right in thinking that any puter noob who gets an Ubuntu box from Dell won't have ANY instructions as to how to actually use it?

Every computer I have ever had that had windows pre-installed did not come with a comprehensive windows tutorial included. They had a quickie fold out sheet and a couple of crappy CDs (recovery and misc BS). When you buy a computer you are in charge of figuring it out.

ragadanga63
May 12th, 2007, 03:13 AM
1. High-end gaming. (most gaming shops/net cafe's use windows because of this)
2. Better printing support. (though my epson printer is capable of printing 2800 dpi in windows, i could only manage 1200 dpi on Linux)
3. Photoshop. (Gimp has no CMYK and color separation support- really necessary features if you are into printing business).
4. die on you when you are in the middle of something really important (*#@$remember the blue screen of death?)
5. get viruses and adwares no matter how careful you are (cough out a hundred bucks to protect your system)


Here's one thing that Linux can do that Windows can't: boot from a LIVECD!!!

stchman
May 12th, 2007, 08:18 AM
1. High-end gaming. (most gaming shops/net cafe's use windows because of this)
2. Better printing support. (though my epson printer is capable of printing 2800 dpi in windows, i could only manage 1200 dpi on Linux)
3. Photoshop. (Gimp has no CMYK and color separation support- really necessary features if you are into printing business).
4. die on you when you are in the middle of something really important (*#@$remember the blue screen of death?)
5. get viruses and adwares no matter how careful you are (cough out a hundred bucks to protect your system)


Here's one thing that Linux can do that Windows can't: boot from a LIVECD!!!

Unlikely you will be able to visually tell the difference in 2800 dpi and 1200dpi on an inkjet on paper. My 1200dpi laser looks better than any inkjet unless the inkjet uses uber expensive paper.

steven8
May 12th, 2007, 09:13 AM
Windows give me the warm fuzzy feeling that I am stuffing more money into the pockets of Bill Gates and other corporate hogs who are trying to hold the world hostage by vendor locking them into only a few very narrow pathways.

I just don't get that with Linux.

beast2k
May 12th, 2007, 01:06 PM
Just gaming, in paticular the games based on directx and there is nothing we can do about that. Lets turn your question around, what can linux do that windows xp can't ? Ultimately I believe that peoples choice of windows or linux will come down to money not what each os can or can not do. The people I introduce to linux are not interested in it untill I tell them it's free then all of a sudden their very interested, what it cant do and can do does not really enter the picture.

beast2k
May 12th, 2007, 01:24 PM
I've spent a lot of time in this thread refuting the idea that gaming is the number one obstacle to Linux desktop adoption...
.

Sorry about posting twice but after reading this post I really got to thinking ..what is the holdup with linux being more widely used? fact is nobody even knows it exists, ask the average windows pc user and odds are they don't even know what linux is. The answer to faster adoption of linux on the desktop is advertising, to make people aware that they have a choice and to let them know what it is and perhaps where they can get it.

aysiu
May 12th, 2007, 03:22 PM
The people I introduce to linux are not interested in it untill I tell them it's free then all of a sudden their very interested, what it cant do and can do does not really enter the picture. That's funny. The people I know are very skeptical of anything free. I just introduced Jamendo to a co-worker the other day. She loved it! But then she tempered her enthusiasm a bit: "It's free music, but is it... legal?" I had to assure her it was 100% legal and explain a bit about the licenses the songs were released under by the artists.

For a lot of people "free" means either "spyware" or "pirated."

ebozzz
May 13th, 2007, 06:26 AM
How about get my Sprint Pantech 500 EVDO aircard to work.
If I had that then I'd reformat my harddrive on my laptop and reinstall for a dual boot win (for work) and linux (for anything else). Also haven't seen much multimedia stuff, although your comparing windows to linux I think we should also compare to macintosh. While very expensive they do come with some impressive out of the box software (each can be upgraded to professional versions as well).

If I was made of money I'd buy a Mac and triple boot. I am not so I am working with my 2yr old laptop and tinkering with Linux a little (but it is easy to mess up linux when tinkering just as windows is easy to mess up when doing the same kind of powerful tweeks and installs).

Overall if you want free you must settle for less.

Stop the press.There's a great guide on the Sprint site that is actually based on Ubuntu.

http://www4.sprint.com/pcsbusiness/support/downloads/index.jsp?internalId=downloads

Select Linux and get the PDF file.

mailbox
May 13th, 2007, 08:10 AM
Gaming is my #1 (and only, really) issue. It's a huge one, too. I /really/ don't want to have to dual-boot just to use Hammer or play Episode One.

Shibby73
May 13th, 2007, 09:03 PM
Stop the press.There's a great guide on the Sprint site that is actually based on Ubuntu.

http://www4.sprint.com/pcsbusiness/support/downloads/index.jsp?internalId=downloads

Select Linux and get the PDF file.


It must be my birthday early this year!!!!

This looks awesome, will definitely use it.
Now I just have to download that Ubuntustudio that JUST came out too!

Anyone know how to wipe a HDD partition clean so I can install for dual booting, I messed up a prior ubuntu install trying to tweak it and am over my head when I can't get to the GUI desktop.

Thanks,

Steve (Shibby73)
smorrea@stansgnosticus.net
:guitar:

beast2k
May 14th, 2007, 02:36 AM
That's funny. The people I know are very skeptical of anything free. I just introduced Jamendo to a co-worker the other day. She loved it! But then she tempered her enthusiasm a bit: "It's free music, but is it... legal?" I had to assure her it was 100% legal and explain a bit about the licenses the songs were released under by the artists.

For a lot of people "free" means either "spyware" or "pirated."

Yes the pirate question does come up but most I talk to assume linux can do what windows can, I think it's because they are thinking along the lines of a mac. Also they are thinking windows does everything I want so why change now. The "if it aint broke dont fix it" mindset is hard to overcome when trying to convert others. One thing that does help in trying to convert others is live cd's, people are more likely now to try linux if they know it will not touch their windows install.

B. Gates
May 14th, 2007, 02:46 AM
The "if it aint broke dont fix it" mindset is hard to overcome when trying to convert others.
If you want to save yourself a lot of wasted time, don't bother converting people to Linux just for the sake of it, particularly if their system is working fine. Instead, try to convert people who's Windows systems ARE broken, because then you CAN fix it by providing an alternative. The more terminal the situation, the more appealing a Linux distro can sound. Otherwise, the alternative won't appear practical.

Rice_slayer
May 15th, 2007, 02:04 PM
I have to say that windows can play games and surround sound, thats about it. If Linux had those 2 abilities, i would ditch XP off my bigger harddrive and move linux over from the 40gb one.

fiftynine
May 15th, 2007, 03:06 PM
Hmm what keeps me dualbooting xp and kubuntu is mostly games, as I used to play a lot with computers.. Nowadays however Im playing most of the time with xbox 360, so.. second biggest reason is my firedtv-tv-box, which apparently doesnt work with linux.

If Cedega wouldnt be closed source, I'd probably be more willing to drop xp off my bootmenu.

ezrollers
May 15th, 2007, 03:08 PM
If you want to save yourself a lot of wasted time, don't bother converting people to Linux just for the sake of it, particularly if their system is working fine. Instead, try to convert people who's Windows systems ARE broken, because then you CAN fix it by providing an alternative. The more terminal the situation, the more appealing a Linux distro can sound. Otherwise, the alternative won't appear practical.

you've got that right

Especially considering the difference in ease of use btw windows and linux.

Rice_slayer
May 15th, 2007, 03:41 PM
Same here, Gaming on PCs is only going to start getting better when new games like Crysis come out, for now my PS3 is satisfying all my gaming needs, only thing besides games, is surround sound. It wont configure even after editting a few settings and selecting all of my surround outputs.

dodgePT
May 15th, 2007, 03:46 PM
If you do find a good subtitle editor, please let us know. That way anyone else searching for one might stumble upon this thread and know what's good.

I take back what i said, i tried and tested several softwares and finally found one that works just the way i wanted, with nice interface and embedded video preview, GNome Subtitles (http://gnome-subtitles.sourceforge.net/screenshots).

I'm not sure if it's in the ubuntu repositories, but it sure deserves to be ;)

edit: here's the download link for those interested http://www.getdeb.net/getdeb.php?file=gnome-subtitles_0.0.3-1getdeb1_i386.deb

raffytaffy
May 15th, 2007, 03:54 PM
crash for no apparent reason. gosh i wish my linux could do that:(:(

Kuoi
May 15th, 2007, 04:09 PM
I have to dual boot for my Minidisc needs.

Otherwise , My sound editing tasks I do in xp , and converting vhs tapes to dvd is also a xp task.

All others are for Ubuntu ( Ubuntu Studio since this night ) , and I'm happy.
You have to admit that using any Linux distro for surfing the internet , -mailing , and downloading stuff is the safest way if we're talking about viruses and spyware !

But Windows users need "msn messenger" because of the wistles and bells... oops , sorry "life messenger"
Not to forget their Hotmail Browser... they can't live without it.

I don't want to install any Linux on any of my friends pc's just because I know they would call me any half an hour , "how do i do this ?" ... "where is that ?"
They and their kids don't have time to search this forum ( or the Dutch forum , because I know they don't want to search in English ) , just because they have to chat , and look for "funny stuff" sites.

I am a happy Ubuntu user since about 6 months , and learning every day.
I enjoy it every time that the hole time i run Ubuntu , it keeps running fine ( O.K. , a few times not included ) .
And because I'm a guy who likes to configure much in xp , I like it that I don't have to do it here.
And if I do , and can't boot anymore or have a big error , it's fixed within minutes thanks to this forum.

If you have a big error in xp , it won't be the same never again.

Imo , most windows users just like the wistles and bells , and don't know about Linux.
Surfing the internet using Firefox in Linux or Windows is the same for me , isn't ?
No , it isn't , ... it is MUCH safer doing it in Linux !

Kuoi

BatsotO
May 17th, 2007, 11:47 PM
Maybe it wouldnt be fair to demand linux to fit everyones needs. But many here keeps windows for games sake.

Im not so good at counting, so i cant present some good statistic.
Gaming maybe not so important bussines in US,although most of the games are made in america it is not fair to do the statistic only for american, come on.. the world is not just America. In other part of the world, Korean DO game ( http://archive.gamespy.com/gdc2003/korean/ ), and it's not console game or flash game, its massive multiplayer online game ( http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17175353/ ). Starcraft player in korea get sponsored, just like US proskater, Ragnarog was (maybe still) a big hit, WoW tournament held regurally.
Korea IS the capital of game in asia, ( the biggest, most crowded continent on the face of the planet ) so situation spreads all across asia, at least some of it, like here in Indonesia.
When american youth go to pubs, here in asia they go to game centers. they spent their money on games, spent hours, get sore eyes. It's so adictive to the level of lethal, some really dead from gaming over dose.

So IMHO while gaming is fun, it's also serious.

mwacky
May 19th, 2007, 08:03 PM
When I first starting using Ubuntu I had a heck of a time getting my ATI graphics card and Broadcom wireless to work on my laptop. Even with the upgrade to Feisty I had problems with the ATI card, but was able to fix it. This can be a huge barrier for those trying to switch.

Ub1476
May 19th, 2007, 08:06 PM
That's not Linux/Ubuntu's fault, but your ATI's:)

Adamant1988
May 19th, 2007, 08:12 PM
I think the one thing that Windows does better than Linux is acting as a platform. Linux is too rapidly moving to be a platform, and so is Ubuntu. Yes, 5 years is WAY too long for the release of an OS, but in that same breath, Windows does the platform game VERY well.

Applications are written for Windows and you don't need to upgrade your system every 6 months to get those new applications. It's easier for developers to write an application for Ubuntu Feisty Fawn, and then have it 'just work' on future releases. I think that's what needs to be made in Linux... a platform. Something that can be written for for 3 years, etc.

nami
May 19th, 2007, 08:29 PM
I agree fully, every six months important applications breaking because of an upgrade to make use of new features...

I think linux distros should maybe think about giving time to the major repository developers to update their applications before releasing the next linux upgrade to ensure smooth upgrades.

rsambuca
May 19th, 2007, 08:51 PM
I don't quite agree with the last two posts here. I mean, with Windows, if you want to upgrade a program, you usually have to buy another one (I assume we are not talking about small updates). Most Windows users never do that. They just use what they have until they get a new computer.

So the ubuntu world is no different, if you want LTS, then you can use the programs for quite a while, and they usually do their job quite well. If you want, you always can install the newer versions of these programs, which is equivalent of going out and buying a new program for Windows and installing it.

I don't see the difference here. You two see to be thinking that just because you CAN upgrade, that everyone should. Not necessarily so.

Adamant1988
May 19th, 2007, 09:02 PM
I don't quite agree with the last two posts here. I mean, with Windows, if you want to upgrade a program, you usually have to buy another one (I assume we are not talking about small updates). Most Windows users never do that. They just use what they have until they get a new computer.

So the ubuntu world is no different, if you want LTS, then you can use the programs for quite a while, and they usually do their job quite well. If you want, you always can install the newer versions of these programs, which is equivalent of going out and buying a new program for Windows and installing it.

I don't see the difference here. You two see to be thinking that just because you CAN upgrade, that everyone should. Not necessarily so.

This is never true for much used software. Look at ANY instant Messenger, or ANY video game, or ANY Web Browser that sees new releases and updates. Just have a gander at how many time AIM was updated during XP's life cycle, and what happened with Firefox and Opera. I didn't pay for any of those softwares, but on my Windows machine you better have believed that I absolutely did keep them up to date.

Considering that most of the software in Ubuntu is free software, we can assume that there are even MORE applications that I would want to update at the nearest possibility. "OH MAN, Open Office has some KILLER new features in this release". You see where this is going. ]

Now, take Dapper and add in an inclusive packaging format that allows me to keep updated apps without destabilizing my system, and I'll be happy. I'm not saying I never bought new software for a system, but most of what I did actually buy was games and game updates (expansion packs).

Many times the new versions of software bring in new features, bug fixes, improved performance, etc. It is usually highly desirable to be able to upgrade on a whim, rather than have to wait for my operating system to release a new version. Now, if applications started releasing in sync with Ubuntu's updates that would be a different story, but since they don't I'm still calling it as a flaw.

rsambuca
May 20th, 2007, 12:48 AM
This is never true for much used software. Look at ANY instant Messenger, or ANY video game, or ANY Web Browser that sees new releases and updates. Just have a gander at how many time AIM was updated during XP's life cycle, and what happened with Firefox and Opera. I didn't pay for any of those softwares, but on my Windows machine you better have believed that I absolutely did keep them up to date.

Considering that most of the software in Ubuntu is free software, we can assume that there are even MORE applications that I would want to update at the nearest possibility. "OH MAN, Open Office has some KILLER new features in this release". You see where this is going. ]

Now, take Dapper and add in an inclusive packaging format that allows me to keep updated apps without destabilizing my system, and I'll be happy. I'm not saying I never bought new software for a system, but most of what I did actually buy was games and game updates (expansion packs).

Many times the new versions of software bring in new features, bug fixes, improved performance, etc. It is usually highly desirable to be able to upgrade on a whim, rather than have to wait for my operating system to release a new version. Now, if applications started releasing in sync with Ubuntu's updates that would be a different story, but since they don't I'm still calling it as a flaw.

I guess we have different definitions of updates and upgrades! I know a lot of people that have purchased Photoshop CS1, and then CS2, and are going to be getting CS3. Office 2007 is actually a fantastic program and again, I know many people who will be purchasing it as well, eventhough they already have an older version of Office. That is the stuff to which I was referring to. Not a new emoticon update to your IM client.

Having said that though, I think most people don't ever upgrade anything, unless it is an automatic update. The people (like myself) who have this strange compulsion to upgrade to every new release of a program eventhough they will probably never use the new features are in the minority.

Adamant1988
May 20th, 2007, 12:58 AM
I guess we have different definitions of updates and upgrades! I know a lot of people that have purchased Photoshop CS1, and then CS2, and are going to be getting CS3. Office 2007 is actually a fantastic program and again, I know many people who will be purchasing it as well, eventhough they already have an older version of Office. That is the stuff to which I was referring to. Not a new emoticon update to your IM client.

Having said that though, I think most people don't ever upgrade anything, unless it is an automatic update. The people (like myself) who have this strange compulsion to upgrade to every new release of a program eventhough they will probably never use the new features are in the minority.

The space should be big enough for both camps of people, right now it's not.

b1nary_w01f
May 20th, 2007, 01:57 AM
so far I've run all my games on wine and they worked fine. i haven't worked with Photoshop on wine yet, but thats next on my to-do list. and all my video streaming works fine. the only thing I've found that windows can do that Linux can't is annoy users into an early grave.

Enverex
May 20th, 2007, 02:02 AM
the only thing I've found that windows can do that Linux can't is annoy users into an early grave.

Hah, give it time and you'll change your mind on that ;)

rsambuca
May 20th, 2007, 02:04 AM
The space should be big enough for both camps of people, right now it's not.

I dunno, I kinda think that the space IS big enough already. If you don't need to upgrade and don't need the hassles, just go from one LTS to another, similar to going from XP to Vista.

If you like to upgrade, then every six months you can go to the new version. If you can't wait a whole six months, then you can always download a new program and install it manually.

Adamant1988
May 20th, 2007, 02:14 AM
I dunno, I kinda think that the space IS big enough already. If you don't need to upgrade and don't need the hassles, just go from one LTS to another, similar to going from XP to Vista.

If you like to upgrade, then every six months you can go to the new version. If you can't wait a whole six months, then you can always download a new program and install it manually.

Which again brings me to my point... for the typical Windows user (I am not talking about granny, joe six pack, what have you) who is comfortable enough with Windows to preform basic tasks like finding and installing software, the 6 month release schedule is not practical. For OEM machines, the 6 month release schedule is not practical.

Why is it not practical for the consumer? Your average windows user knows how to preform those basic functions I mentioned above, and it's almost a trained reflex. When AIM releases a new messenger that person WILL hear about it, and they WILL want it, but incompatibilities with the libraries currently stored in the system will force the user to either wait 6 months and upgrade, or install the application from source/3rd party repo and risk ruining their system on the attempted upgrade.

Why is it not practical for the OEM?
Imagine having to re-certify your entire line-up of hardware every 6 months so that you can offer the latest software to your users.

I'm going to argue that the average consumer is better served by a platform style release and an inclusive packaging format that removes dependency woes from the equation.

rsambuca
May 20th, 2007, 02:46 AM
Which again brings me to my point... for the typical Windows user (I am not talking about granny, joe six pack, what have you) who is comfortable enough with Windows to preform basic tasks like finding and installing software, the 6 month release schedule is not practical. For OEM machines, the 6 month release schedule is not practical.

Why is it not practical for the consumer? Your average windows user knows how to preform those basic functions I mentioned above, and it's almost a trained reflex. When AIM releases a new messenger that person WILL hear about it, and they WILL want it, but incompatibilities with the libraries currently stored in the system will force the user to either wait 6 months and upgrade, or install the application from source/3rd party repo and risk ruining their system on the attempted upgrade.

Why is it not practical for the OEM?
Imagine having to re-certify your entire line-up of hardware every 6 months so that you can offer the latest software to your users.

I'm going to argue that the average consumer is better served by a platform style release and an inclusive packaging format that removes dependency woes from the equation.
Nope, I am afraid you are incorrect here. Windows is installed on 90+ of all desktop PC's in the world, and I can assure you that the majority of these users do NOT know how to find and install software.

I am sure most of the users in your younger generation can do these things, but the majority of PC users can not. Except for the odd geek like me, most 'old' guys my age don't have a clue how to do anything close to what you are talking about.

Thus if they had an LTS installed they would be perfectly happy.

With respect to your last point about inclusive packaging, that is the reason linux users complain about windows and how it bloats your system! Linux by design is much sleeker in nature and more efficient with system resources, partly because you don't have multiple copies of libraries floating around on your system.

pentax
June 1st, 2007, 08:07 AM
Download spyware and worms, until your CPU crawls?

Quillz
June 1st, 2007, 08:40 AM
Download spyware and worms, until your CPU crawls?
Maybe for novice users, but any person who is even somewhat technologically literate will be smart enough to have at least some anti-virus and anti-spyware services running, preventing most (but not all) spyware and worms. Really, as long as you are smart about what you do and download on the Internet, you needn't worry so much about system-killing viruses.

aysiu
June 1st, 2007, 08:45 AM
Maybe for novice users, but any person who is even somewhat technologically literate will be smart enough to have at least some anti-virus and anti-spyware services running, preventing most (but not all) spyware and worms. Really, as long as you are smart about what you do and download on the Internet, you needn't worry so much about system-killing viruses.
So I guess Windows isn't "ready for the desktop," at least not for the mythical "Joe Sixpack."

nu2this
June 1st, 2007, 09:02 AM
I have a "joe six pack" neighbor he doesn't use the PC his kid does Windows only though it's a school lappy.
The "joe" works on his car & house he,"don't understand that computer s*@T!"
So in his case I think it can be safely said he's not ready for the desktop.
Staying within the thread I also know of some games that just can't be played in Linux even with wine. However hope springs eternal more so now with Dell & Ubuntu.