"We're all going to be upgrading to Vista anyway"

[FoolsGold]

I read this quote more or less on any tech site (particularly gaming sites) I visit. Whenever there's a thread talking about Vista, even those who are reluctant to move to Vista argue that no-one really has any choice. They assume that ultimately we'll ALL have to upgrade to Vista whether we like it or not.

The thing that annoys me is that people don't seem to believe that they have a choice. Most of these people are aware of things like Linux, but don't believe it's worth the effort for whatever reason. People, techy people at least, know of the alternatives, but it's always the gaming that keeps them on Windows for some reason. I understand that, but you can game on Linux too, just not the latest and greatest I suppose. Why do people just completely lock-out any alternatives though? Are people really that close minded? Does Linux need more commercial games, or do people need a different mindset?

Some background of my own: prior to converting to Ubuntu, I was a gamer. A fairly big one. I still like my games, but I do more with my time these days and so gaming isn't as much of an issue as it was. There are things I can play in Linux, like Uplink, Urban Terror, Wolf ET and many more. Still, I believed the quality of an OS should outweigh the trivial things like games (and ultimately they are trivial compared to what computers can do), hence the move to Ubuntu.

We're going to have trouble furthering the ranks of Linux users if people are stuck in the mindset of "oh well, we don't really have a choice. We HAVE to upgrade to the next version of Windows, and despite the lack of control I have about it, I'll blissfully go along with it." People DO have control, they just need to act on it.

I find it scary if people think they have no control anymore. Lack of control is a more serious issue than playing a computer game, isn't it?

[jackmc]

it all depends on the user. I am not into games, so I switched. If you want to play a certain game that linux does not offer, and that is what you use a computer for, it would not make sense to switch. For gamers, I would say there is very little choice. Eventually, games will require Vista. I guess the alternative is to get a console instead..

I couldn't be happier with Linux though (I'm a new user). I think if people saw it in action a lot more users would at least try it out..

[DJ_Peng]

I make a point of letting people know they have a choice in their OS whenever I get the chance. A number of people I know won't be able to run Vista on their present comps, and some that can won't get all the bells and whistles they're expecting. One thing I did to help spread Ubuntu is when I requested my Feisty disk from ShipIt I got two extras specifically for evangelism.

Yes, I have a couple of things I could do under Windows that I'm having problems with, even with Wine, but I'm not a gamer and I have the freedom to not need those programs that often in the first place. One thing I want to do for some friends is see if the new LOTRO works under Wine, but I need to make some room on my drives before I can even try it. If it works, I already have a friend who's considering dumping Windows after seeing me use Ubuntu.

[wanchai]

I switched my machines to Ubuntu step by step over quite a long period of time. But I haven't eliminated Windows, it's now running under VMWare. Windows is still there because my company's products don't run on anything else. Then there are applications for which Linux doesn't have very good replacements: Photoshop, Illustrator, Visio. I know there is The Gimp, but that's another transition...

And then there's MS Office. Open Office is great and I use it for my own stuff, but all my co-workers send me MS Office documents and they expect the same formats back. Converting every single document back and forth doesn't make much sense, for more complex documents it's not perfect and in case of MS Excel with macros, it doesn't even work. So, instead of bothering with constant conversions, I stick with MS Office, and since running it in Wine is a crutch, I leave it in a virtual Windows box (using 2k Prof, never bothered with XP, didn't see a good reason to switch).

During this switch from Windows to Ubuntu I wondered many times why am I doing that. I was wondering what I can actually do in Linux that I couldn't do in Windows. Recompiling the whole damn thing was the only one that came to my mind. I'm not particularly interested in that. I need my computers to work, to browse the web, to email, to create and edit documents that other people need to be able to read and update. All the advantages that the Linuxes have seem to be under the hood (security) or religious (open source). From a pure user's point of view, I don't see any real advantage, on the contrary, Ubuntu can't use the serial port on my laptop (filed a bug, no response), switching external monitors doesn't work (filed in Launchpad, no response), and when I move back to Company HQ and have to connect to an Exchange server, then my pretty email setup becomes useless as well...

Still, I believe that Open Source is the way to go, Ubuntu was relatively easy to install and it's running very well. So, I'll stick with it.

[aysiu]

Well, if you hang out on gaming forums, that makes sense.

PC gaming leaves you dependent on Windows. Fortunately, most people console game.

http://www.psychocats.net/essays/gamingperspective

[DJ_Peng]

@wanchai:
The security issues was what sent me away from Windows. I simply got sick and tired of having to wonder how long it was going to take Microsoft to address the newest vulnerability, and with so many zero day attacks in the news I decided it was simply time. I still have a dual-boot system set up for XP, but once I get a couple issues straightened out for the 'net radio station I work with I look forward to killing my XP partition completely and just making it a /home partition.

I. Can't. Wait.

[FoolsGold]

Well, if you hang out on gaming forums, that makes sense.

PC gaming leaves you dependent on Windows. Fortunately, most people console game.

http://www.psychocats.net/essays/gamingperspective

Yes indeed, I read your writeup Mr. Cat... thing, and I agreed with it completely. It is also true that as far as the market is concerned, consoles rule. That's the reason why I think people shouldn't just assume they have to move to Windows just because of games. If you really have a problem with Vista, don't take it at face value, try something else and see if you can live if it. I could, and I was as big a gamer as any of these other folks. I still don't own a console, and don't need too because there's enough on Linux to keep me happy.

Not sure why I still hang out on gaming forums though. Habit I guess.

[Quillz]

That comment is more or less true to Windows users. Sure, there are still the rare few who may use Win95 or Win98, but then again, how many Ubuntu users do you think are still using 4.10? Wouldn't it be a safe bet to say that eventually, the majority of Ubuntu users will all be using 7.04 anyway? It's the same with any other OS. As technology progresses, eventually most all Windows users will be on Vista, just like most OS X users will be on Leopard.

[FoolsGold]

That comment is more or less true to Windows users. Sure, there are still the rare few who may use Win95 or Win98, but then again, how many Ubuntu users do you think are still using 4.10? Wouldn't it be a safe bet to say that eventually, the majority of Ubuntu users will all be using 7.04 anyway? It's the same with any other OS. As technology progresses, eventually most all Windows users will be on Vista, just like most OS X users will be on Leopard.

There is a difference though. Moving from an older version of Ubuntu to the latest is a fairly pleasant experience. The system requirements will be similar, maybe a little bit higher but nothing drastic, there will be plenty of improvements and few (if any) actual disadvantages with the newer versions.

With Windows, an update will force you to take the good with the bad, and you can't easily rip out the bad components if you do not want/like them. If Vista didn't have any real disadvantages and was truly an improvement over XP (and at a fair price), then the upgrade probably wouldn't be an issue. But it does, and it is. I don't see people whining about the idea of upgrading to Feisty, they're looking FOWARD to it. Vista has been much more split in opinion.

[Quillz]

There is a difference though. Moving from an older version of Ubuntu to the latest is a fairly pleasant experience. The system requirements will be similar, maybe a little bit higher but nothing drastic, there will be plenty of improvements and few (if any) actual disadvantages with the newer versions.

With Windows, an update will force you to take the good with the bad, and you can't easily rip out the bad components if you do not want/like them. If Vista didn't have any real disadvantages and was truly an improvement over XP (and at a fair price), then the upgrade probably wouldn't be an issue. But it does, and it is. I don't see people whining about the idea of upgrading to Feisty, they're looking FOWARD to it. Vista has been much more split in opinion.
But look at the big picture. Those who are complaining about Vista are the ones who know enough to make blogs, videos, etc. The majority of consumers will be indifferent towards Vista, and simply upgrade once they get their next computer.

It's no surprise that most Linux users tend to be a bit more technologically literate, so they know the pros and cons of upgrading.

[koshari]

well i just ordered a new notebook, and it will be coming with vista installed,

why ?. basically its practically impassable to get a notebook without windows installed, and all the OEMs are offering vista instead ox XP now its out.

[H.E. Pennypacker]

I don't understand gamers. There are lots of fun computer games that are simple. What's the deal with all those huge and sophisticated games like Halo? Just play Tetris. It's just as fun as Halo (I've never played Halo).

[Hex_Mandos]

Quiltz: Linux users upgrade, but they might change distros if they disagree with their current one's philosophy. Not all Ubuntu users upgrade to Ubuntu.

[Quillz]

well i just ordered a new notebook, and it will be coming with vista installed,

why ?. basically its practically impassable to get a notebook without windows installed, and all the OEMs are offering vista instead ox XP now its out.
As they should, in my opinion. XP is outdated technology, Vista is current. As the months progress, more and more applications will start to become exclusive to XP and Vista.

[Quillz]

Quiltz: Linux users upgrade, but they might change distros if they disagree with their current one's philosophy. Not all Ubuntu users upgrade to Ubuntu.
Yes, I've done that myself. I've gone from Ubuntu to Gentoo to openSUSE and back to Kubuntu.

[jiminycricket]

During this switch from Windows to Ubuntu I wondered many times why am I doing that. I was wondering what I can actually do in Linux that I couldn't do in Windows. Recompiling the whole damn thing was the only one that came to my mind. I'm not particularly interested in that. I need my computers to work, to browse the web, to email, to create and edit documents that other people need to be able to read and update. All the advantages that the Linuxes have seem to be under the hood (security) or religious (open source). From a pure user's point of view, I don't see any real advantage, on the contrary, Ubuntu can't use the serial port on my laptop (filed a bug, no response), switching external monitors doesn't work (filed in Launchpad, no response), and when I move back to Company HQ and have to connect to an Exchange server, then my pretty email setup becomes useless as well...

Still, I believe that Open Source is the way to go, Ubuntu was relatively easy to install and it's running very well. So, I'll stick with it.

Just a general comment: Exchange and MS's other protocols like CIFS and Active Directory are highly obfuscated, which makes it hard for competitors like Samba to even start to rival MS integration. It's best to switch to a platform agnostic or at least not MS groupware program, but I know that's not feasible for most companies who have licenses already.

Anyways, the external monitor situation should be fixed with X.org 7.3, check out the new Fedora live cds that have have XRandr1.2 or you can even try to install the .debs some people made of it on Ubuntu Feisty Fawn.

[wanchai]

Reply to jiminycricket

I'm not blaming Linux for not being able to 100% understand all MS formats and protocols. I just mentioned this as a reason why we're not really free to choose. As long as I'm just looking at my home computing, I can use whatever I want. For work, on the other hand, we have to follow the majority. Even if my company would decide to switch to Open Source, then it just shifts the problem to another level because our customers still want MS-Office documents. So, it's a long way to go. I think once more and more governments start insisting on Open Source formats, then we'll get there because this will force MS to ditch their proprietary formats.

Thanks for the hint regarding Xorg. I'll look into that.

[macogw]

Yes, I've done that myself. I've gone from Ubuntu to Gentoo to openSUSE and back to Kubuntu.

XP has at least some semblance of stability, though. Compare Debian Stable to Feisty-2-months-ago. That's XP v. Vista. And, Vista is ridiculous on resource hogging. Seriously, it can't run a screensaver, but I can use Beryl? WHAT?

[karellen]

"Why do people just completely lock-out any alternatives though? Are people really that close minded?"
yes they are, more than you can imagine...

[donkyhotay]

"Why do people just completely lock-out any alternatives though? Are people really that close minded?"
yes they are, more than you can imagine...

You have no idea... My dad got an older computer with winXP on it (this was his first PC by the way) and despite my recommendations he kept winXP on it because it must be easier to learn since everyone else uses it (thinking that linux is only easy for geeks like me). After trying to learn XP for a few months he grew frustrated with all the "help" that winXP tried to give him. That combined with continually running into BSOD (he doesn't have internet so no patches for him) he finally gave in and let me install ubuntu on his system. He's still happily running dapper to this day (no internet to update with but he really doesn't need to). The main thing he appreciates about linux is as he puts it "my computer now does what I tell it to do, not what it wants to do".

[gjohn2]

I have converted my partner and one of my friends. I am
working on my parents next. Muhahaha!

[zoetrope666]

Then there are applications for which Linux doesn't have very good replacements: Photoshop, Illustrator, Visio. I know there is The Gimp, but that's another transition...

I don't get this fear that people who use Photoshop seem to have of Gimp. Gimp is pretty much identical to Photoshop - it has equivalents to the majority of things Photoshop does, as far as I can see. Indeed, after becoming utterly confused with Photoshop a few years back, using Gimp seemed easy. Maybe I'm weird, but I find it more user friendly.

And then there's MS Office. Open Office is great and I use it for my own stuff, but all my co-workers send me MS Office documents and they expect the same formats back. Converting every single document back and forth doesn't make much sense, for more complex documents it's not perfect and in case of MS Excel with macros, it doesn't even work. So, instead of bothering with constant conversions, I stick with MS Office, and since running it in Wine is a crutch, I leave it in a virtual Windows box (using 2k Prof, never bothered with XP, didn't see a good reason to switch).

I've had the same problem with this. The solution is I use Cross Over Office on Ubuntu Dapper, and run XPWord in this.. I actually find that XPWord runs better in this than it does in XP, strangely enough!

I hate that everyone is getting sucked in to Vista - my family has, already. It angers me so much - I know that they're going to spend a lot of money and just have the same problems, and be phoning me up asking for solutions. I'm proud to say I'll be simply responding with: "I don't do Windows" now - I'm clearing XP off my system in early June (when I change jobs) and fully migrating to Ubuntu. :-)

[prizrak]

It is true for the most part. I mean while Dell might pre install Linux I am not a fan of their hardware mostly due to the quality issues. System76 doesn't have any non widescreen models which makes me not want to get it. Desktop are of course self built in our circles. The point is basically that when I will be getting a new laptop I will most likely be getting one with Vista on it. Unless of course ASUS, Lenovo or Acer start offering Linux on their machines.

[zoetrope666]

There is a difference though. Moving from an older version of Ubuntu to the latest is a fairly pleasant experience. The system requirements will be similar, maybe a little bit higher but nothing drastic, there will be plenty of improvements and few (if any) actual disadvantages with the newer versions.

With Windows, an update will force you to take the good with the bad, and you can't easily rip out the bad components if you do not want/like them. If Vista didn't have any real disadvantages and was truly an improvement over XP (and at a fair price), then the upgrade probably wouldn't be an issue. But it does, and it is. I don't see people whining about the idea of upgrading to Feisty, they're looking FOWARD to it. Vista has been much more split in opinion.

I think, too, that the difference is that with Ubuntu, additional upgrades of the OS don't cost you anything, and in many cases you don't have to upgrade your hardware, either. With Vista, we're talking about a total system upgrade for most people - not only the OS, but the hardware too. This already happened for most people when they made the change to 2000, and then XP. I think heaps of people saw XP as 'the' system to have, and so made the move when that came out - probably mostly because it had eye candy that 2000 didn't have.

Vista means that pretty much all people are going to have to upgrade their PCs *and* OS's yet again - which is just so excessive.

I think, too, that a major problem with Windows is that all that seems to change is the eye candy and the amount of resources the OS takes up because of this - the core stuff you get with the system, the way it operates, and the problems you experience with it almost always recur. Yes, there has been better driver support with each Windows release, but I would go as far as to asser that the difference stops there.

Ubuntu doesn't demand anywhere near the resources required to run Vista. I agree, too, with the statement here that every new version appears to go some way to addressing the problems experienced by users when using previous versions of the distro. It's not flawless, but it's a hell of a lot easier to use compared to Windows - far less time consuming in terms of virus checks, spyware, etc.

And yes, some might say 'well, are we simplifying the system too much because we're geeks.. are we overestimating the novice computer user?' Well, I'm somewhat sad to say it, but I'd call myself a pretty novice computer user - I know practically nothing about code and the like compared with most on these forums. And I find that I can sort out most issues on Ubuntu.

The thing is, the only real difference between the system in terms of functionality that I can see is that Ubuntu doesn't come preinstalled for people. Windows does.

Ask a load of Windoze people how to install Windows on a PC, and I bet they wouldn't have a clue. It came on their computer when they bought it in most cases. I know it did on our first computers.

If Ubuntu came preinstalled, and people were briefly shown how to use the alternative office and email, etc, suites that come on it (or were given something like Wine or Cross Over Office so they could just use the WIn apps they're used to) then I don't really think such a fuss would be made.

[diskotek]

i really love to use computer after installing linux. now i really enjoy using computer... so kiss goodbye to vsta

[old_geekster]

My plan is to use Windows to game until my rig won't run the latest and greatest. Then, I will purchase a console for gaming and use Ubuntu as my default OS forever and ever, Amen!!;-)

[prizrak]

As far as external monitor stuff goes. If you are using nVidia card the nvidia-settings GUI has a very nice and easy way of configuring dual head including cloning to an external monitor. I've used it myself and it may screw up your X but you can always get back to the workable config ;)

[jerrylamos]

Only way I see getting Vista is if it happens to be on a computer I buy. That's not likely to be real soon now, this is a 1 gHz Celeron 512 mb running Feisty with nice sharp quick response especially the 2048x1024 screen scroll.

I've got a significantly faster 2 gHz Pentium 4 sitting next to it which I have (mostly) restored XP after Feisty fdisk wiped out the partition table. When (if) "persistent" mode is revived on Feisty or Gutsy I might try that on the P4 with caution i.e. no partitioning or formatting even of USB.

I do use XP for things Linux has chosen not to do, for example videos on major news stations like ABC which uses Microsoft specific proprietary ActiveX and Windows Media Player. Another key is Epson printer utilities like cleaning heads and changing cartridges which run on XP and Win98 but not Linux. I have a note that Wine has no intention of supporting such printer utilities.

And of course I like the Ubuntu community; I'm particularly interested in how many people are experiencing bugs I found on the Alpha and Beta which weren't fixed for the release. Some get help from workarounds that Ubuntu developers designed.

And I do try various other competing Linux packages like Knoppix and Simpy Mepix and Puppy and ZenWalk and Mandriva and (not Suse which I consider tainted with Microsoft, and not Red Hat after a couple years of burises). Puppy's got really superior "persistent" mode and USB live support too, I do keep coming back to Ubuntu either Feisty or Dapper (which runs better on my Thinkpad R31). Example Kubuntu Konqueror doesn't do AOL Mail, and Xubuntu doesn't do LAN workgroup browsing that I've found.

Cheers, Jerry

[prizrak]

If Ubuntu came preinstalled, and people were briefly shown how to use the alternative office and email, etc, suites that come on it (or were given something like Wine or Cross Over Office so they could just use the WIn apps they're used to) then I don't really think such a fuss would be made.
Not even as complicated as that. Most people use a web based e-mail client anyway. Open Office is about as different from Office 2003 as 2007 is so there isn't a whole lot of case to be made for using something that people already know. 2007 actually got rid of some very useful functionalities that I was used to.

[apureevil1]

I have to use windoz for my job but I am slowly converting over to ubuntu. I have built 2 new machines for my home and my wife and kids are using them for their daily use machines..both are running 6.10 (edgy) they have no complaints, so far everything they used to use with windoz works with ubuntu..I am almost completely sold..I am just going around in circles with my wireless but that is really minor in the broad scope of things..... I am not going to give up on this, Heck having to do a complete rebuild is still less painful with ubuntu than windoz. I tried vista beta and was not wowwed..it really is a resource hog,,

[Slackpacker]

I can understand the allure of a highly proprietary, locked-down, copy-protected, resource-intensive shiny gaming system.

I just don't expect to be able to check my email on my PS2.

[slimdog360]

I've been Windows free for a few months now and I have no need to go back to it. I'm actually really suprised by this.

[C-A]

No upgrade here. No dual boot. No windows. Life is good.

[jcs_double]

well i dual- boot (ubuntu, xp) and i hope soon to tri boot with vista and then slowly move all my xp stuff to vista and possably phase out xp.

i like windows for my gaming rig it may be recource hungery but its what i like to do

[Carrots171]

I read this quote more or less on any tech site (particularly gaming sites) I visit. Whenever there's a thread talking about Vista, even those who are reluctant to move to Vista argue that no-one really has any choice. They assume that ultimately we'll ALL have to upgrade to Vista whether we like it or not.

Pretty much everyone is going to upgrade to Vista whether they like it or not. Sooner or later, people are going to buy new computers. And guess what is on the vast majority of new computers? Windows Vista.

The thing that annoys me is that people don't seem to believe that they have a choice. Most of these people are aware of things like Linux, but don't believe it's worth the effort for whatever reason.

Most people don't think it's worth the effort to install and configure an operating system. Many people also use hardware/software that's only compatible with Microsoft. Often they need this software or hardware. They have no other choice but to use Microsoft products. In a few years, I'll bet that there will be quite a few pieces of hardware or software that are only compatible with Vista. People will be forced to upgrade if they need those pieces of hardware/software.

[lakersforce]

I don't understand gamers. There are lots of fun computer games that are simple. What's the deal with all those huge and sophisticated games like Halo? Just play Tetris. It's just as fun as Halo (I've never played Halo).

If the film makers thought that way, we would still be watching black and white movies with no sound.

[lakersforce]

I've had the same problem with this. The solution is I use Cross Over Office on Ubuntu Dapper, and run XPWord in this.. I actually find that XPWord runs better in this than it does in XP, strangely enough!

Ditching one proprietary system to use another seems odd.

[M$LOL]

Pretty much everyone is going to upgrade to Vista whether they like it or not. Sooner or later, people are going to buy new computers. And guess what is on the vast majority of new computers? Windows Vista.

Pretty much everyone... other than people who know the reasons not to upgrade to Vista, and that would include the whole Linux/Unix userbase plus people who are knowledgeable in computers, including Windows users. Most people who will upgrade to Vista of their own choice will only do it because it's new or has nice eye candy, not because they have any good reason to do so.

[Marc_UK]

well i just ordered a new notebook, and it will be coming with vista installed,

why ?. basically its practically impassable to get a notebook without windows installed, and all the OEMs are offering vista instead ox XP now its out.

Clickety Click to the Dell website, people have specifically requested they want XP on their computers!

[Ram Crammer]

I can understand the allure of a highly proprietary, locked-down, copy-protected, resource-intensive shiny gaming system.

I just don't expect to be able to check my email on my PS2.

There is a whole community devoted to running Linux on Play Station 2. They've been doing email on Play Station 2 for years.
http://playstation2-linux.com
The cover story in a recent issue of Linux Journal is about installing Linux on Play Station 3. The author was then easily able to do email and surf the net from his easy chair, instead of his desk, and could switch back to gaming whenever he wanted. The distro he installed was Yellow Dog. The article ran about 2 months ago, but being the feature article, sadly, it isn't included in the on-line magazine, only in the hardcopy edition.

Linux (or one of the Unices) runs on nearly every platform around. If you develop code for one platform, it's very easy to port it to another. Try installing Windoze on a Play Station. LOL.

Linux may not be a gamers' OS, but it is hardly flattering to MS that games is their only real claim to fame. It just shows that Windoze is just an OS for kids (or youthful minded adults). There's nothing wrong with that. Let the kids have their fun, and the rest of us can enjoy Linux and experience the exhilaration of freedom. No MGA, no spyware, no "single user/single machine" licensing issues, no multiple reboots during installation. Do computing your way, without the OS holding you back. For anyone who doesn't need to use Widows for work, and doesn't care about games, choosing Linux is a no-brainer. In time, the gamers will be installing Linux as their main system, and double booting Windows to play their games. When Windows breaks, they can boot Linux to fix it. That's what I do, whenever my wife's Windoze box breaks. Linux makes maintaining Windows much easier.

[the8thstar]

A couple of thoughts here...

The upgrade to Vista is inevitable, as many of you stated, since Vista comes pre-installed on most new computers. It bears DirectX 10 technology, the new Holy Grail for PC gamers.

The fact that Vista is chowing heavily on resources is not going to make any manufacturer cry. On the contrary, it stimulates sales and competition. The end user (customer) is the loser of course, but the inertia of the market and the preemption of Microsoft are such that 95% of recent buyers of PC with XP installed will resign to the idea of upgrading no matter what. Some will discover that their hardware is not strong enough and the OS is lagging, but that's another story.

Then, let's face it, most users have no clue what's going on in their computers. And they don't give a damn anyway, because that's not what they bought their computers for in the first place. A lot of users lack the knowledge to properly maintain and update their software/hardware; a lot of users are just too lazy or scared too. There's nothing we can do to prevent that. That's human nature for you. That's a reason why Microsoft makes so much money: most of its products are easy because they do all the work for you. That's reassuring enough for a majority of people.

Finally, Vista is a very good product too. It looks good and is more reliable and secure than its predecessors. That alone would be a good reason to upgrade and save yourself the hassle of spyware, wouldn't it?

Generally speaking, Vista is for people who want it easy and Ubuntu 7.04 is for people who are naturally curious.

[Iceni]

"Generally speaking, Vista is for people who want it easy and Ubuntu 7.04 is for people who are naturally curious."

Yes, exactly. And herein lies the "problem". Not a real one, because most people don't give a rat's *** about the microsoft monopoly, the available alternatives or the fact that Sony finds it fit to install a rootkit on their computer. On this day and in this age, where more families (in the western world at least) have computers that not. Most of these users have their computer for use and fun, not for understanding them. Compare them with new cars. Most new cars have a plate under the hood covering the engine, with small holes for fluid refills. You can't even change the lightbulb yourself on many new cars.

It's the same with computers. People don't care, and really, why would they? A computer is simply a tool to create digital media or gather information. It can be used to play media or other variants of entertainment, like gaming. It can do mathematics.

I bet most of you have computer illiterate friends. You know, those guys who have an XP install, using Internet Explorer with Norton security suite and perhaps windows defender running. They have at least 2 toolbars in their browser, a bunch of spyware and the ad-infested version of limewire. Perharps some slightly less illiterate friend or "expert" visitor showed them the world of bittorrent, but they rarely use it because it is really slow - no open ports. They have msn with 5-6 addon packs of fun smileys, all who came with their own fun virus. They call you, their "geek" friend, when they can't get Counter-Strike to work anymore. Or they buy a new computer when everything slows to a crawl.

I bet that sounds familiar. The ironic thing is that the biggest part of the problem is themselves. Unfortunately you can't really blame them for not being interrested in computers, it's pretty much the same as you not giving a rat's *** about Tiger Wood's latest miracle put or the fact that double F1 world champion Fernando Alonso is being beated by his rookie team mate. The even better irony is that this is the majority or computer users, and the biggest os supplier in the world doesn't seem to realize that these are their main customer base. People like us will eventually find our way to linux or alternatives, perhaps with a pirated copy of windows for our gaming needs. We want the control the majority don't need or want. We want the freedom to chose everything ourself. We are facinated by the ability to copile programs for our exact computer.

Either the train goes on and ms keeps their iron grip, but I really hope apple will realise their chance and cut prices on macs. With mac being associated with a trendy lifestyle and this being a winner nowadays people will jump to get their mac home and installed. Heck, I want one myself. It looks pretty and it can do the things I want. Actually, what I really want is a computer looking like a mac, sporting beryl, a pretty skin and a linux distro with elements from KDE and gnome. Now that would sell computers.

So after ranting for a while, I guess I agree. Vista is ineviable:)

[fistfullofroses]

Sorry man, but most people just do not care. You will never convince them. This is not a war of operating systems. This is just the freedom of choice. I do not hate Windows. I think it is inferior, but that is just my opinion. I like Haiku, I like Solaris, I like Nexenta, I like MacOSX, I like *BSD, I like Menuet, etc... The only reason I use Linux over any other operating system is this : it is unix-like thus I know it, and it is the largest and most supported of all non-windows operating systems. Do not worry about everyone else. Let them make their own decisions, and/or mistakes.

[brechtvb]

that's downgrading

[Annigma]

Wow, I love the way some of you guys write. That's a huge plus for me on the wobbly road to Linux.. ;)
I'm sooo used to:
hi how r u m8
gr8 u?
i can't rite 4 the life of me but who cares i can pwn u anydayz
lol

I tell you what's making the transition a little difficult for me though. Many of YOU actually know what you're doing, which is great. HOWEVER, some of you forget that there are people who are 'naturally curious' *grin* and would like to also move from *spits*MS*spits* but barely understand what the heck you're talking about when you offer your 'help'.

This is in no way meant to be insulting, since this seems like a nice community. It's just a shame that you waste your breath sometimes by assuming that the poor little newbie asking you dumb questions CAN'T take your advice, because they don't understand it: not without looking up a chunk of what you're saying anyway :P

I'm currently browsing around trying to find out how to get a couple of games (Planeshift and Guild Wars) working on Feisty. I installed Wine (0.9.33) from the repository (GW needs it, I believe, though PS doesn't :) ), then realised that there's a much newer version (0.9.36).. now I'm trying to work out whether I can upgrade or whether I need to uninstall, find the latest from a 'decent' source, then reinstall. Then, of course I have to figure out what the heck to do with the darn thing once it's installed! :D Each 'help' link I follow confuses me further.. :(

Oh and Vista.. pfft.. Well, not an option at the moment, as I built this machine about four years ago, so I think it would just laugh at me for even considering it!

^..^

[Steve H]

For the most part, the people I talk to about Ubuntu, still see Linux as being "Geeky" or "complicated". Also a lot of people want an OOTB experience, which Linux is not seen to deliver in general, yet. People always seem to feel more secure with the responsibilty of "making something work" being somelse's problem. Also the growth of PC's in general is seen to be intrinsically linked with Windows, to the point where some people cannot differentiate between windoze and PC hardware. They think they are one and the same thing.

I hate to say it, but until Linux can make most (preferably ALL) hardware work OOTB then most people will not see it as a viable alternative.

I do however think that forums such as this one, and forums for other distros&projects, will close the gap over time. Why pay for you tech support when you have millions of people waiting to answer your questions on any of the major distro forums.

[cprofitt]

Windows Vista runs fine on a proper machine with the correct hardware.

Ubuntu runs fine on a proper machine with the correct hardware.

Both Windows and Ubuntu will crash if you use the incorrect hardware or low quality crap hardware.

The real difference is that almost every piece of hardware available at the big box stores has windows drivers and will work with Windows while the same is not always true of Ubuntu or other distros of Linux.

[starcraft.man]

Windows Vista runs fine on a proper machine with the correct hardware.

Ubuntu runs fine on a proper machine with the correct hardware.

Both Windows and Ubuntu will crash if you use the incorrect hardware or low quality crap hardware.

The real difference is that almost every piece of hardware available at the big box stores has windows drivers and will work with Windows while the same is not always true of Ubuntu or other distros of Linux.

Uh, I think you forgot the gab in minimum requirements is enormous from Ubuntu to Vista... I mean I can run (and by run I mean smooth and with lots of open apps) Beryl/Gnome on my old p4 with just a (1) GB or regular ram and my dated 6800 GT... If I popped Vista on it, I'd like to see Aero run properly with more than an app open >.>.

Anyway, I firmly believe I won't ever be touching Vista, and I do happen to be a gamer as well. How is this you ask? FallingLeaf, (http://www.fallingleafsystems.com/) like in the autumn... I'm not gonna be forced to buy something thats crap just cuz gave devs won't code for opengl/Linux...

It seems a sad day to me though when people believe they "have to" buy an OS to do something... very sad indeed.

[kamaboko]

@wanchai:
The security issues was what sent me away from Windows. I simply got sick and tired of having to wonder how long it was going to take Microsoft to address the newest vulnerability, and with so many zero day attacks in the news I decided it was simply time.

I. Can't. Wait.

God, I'm so tired of this broken record excuse. "Ewww....ewwww....there are so many viruses attacking me...ewwww..ewwww...i can't handle the security issues...ewww". I've been using MS products since DOS 1.0 and have NEVER been hit with a virus, worm, trojan...you name it. A week doesn't go by without getting a security update for Ubuntu. Funny no one talks about that. What the hell do you think those updates are for? Let me help you with the answer: Security issues.

[BoyOfDestiny]

God, I'm so tired of this broken record excuse. "Ewww....ewwww....there are so many viruses attacking me...ewwww..ewwww...i can't handle the security issues...ewww". I've been using MS products since DOS 1.0 and have NEVER been hit with a virus, worm, trojan...you name it. A week doesn't go by without getting a security update for Ubuntu. Funny no one talks about that. What the hell do you think those updates are for? Let me help you with the answer: Security issues.

You are likely an exception. Or you use these machines without a net connection. Anyway, Ubuntu security updates come often. Good. Security updates are good, if you keep your machine up to date. I rather not wait until Tuesday, which I think what the poster you replied to was going for.
Not to mention that user installed apps are likely to need manual updates for security updates. Not really Windows fault, it's just something it doesn't do. As more apps offer their own update mechanism, assuming it's secure, is a good thing (i.e. firefox updates)

That said, for the most part I agree. You can keep Windows secure and clean (although I'd argue a hardware firewall is needed to really lock it down and its backdoors)
But the average user (i.e. grabbing freeware apps from who knows where, surfing sites with internet explorer will at least pick up some tracking cookies, open ports without firewall or hardware firewall (which some routers have) are likely to get something.

In the end it comes down to the user. Do you have to be savvy to keep Ubuntu clean? That may change if there are random .debs being downloaded. As of now I'm of the opinion users don't need to install a firewall config tool (no open ports by default), or anti-virus.

[starcraft.man]

God, I'm so tired of this broken record excuse. "Ewww....ewwww....there are so many viruses attacking me...ewwww..ewwww...i can't handle the security issues...ewww". I've been using MS products since DOS 1.0 and have NEVER been hit with a virus, worm, trojan...you name it. A week doesn't go by without getting a security update for Ubuntu. Funny no one talks about that. What the hell do you think those updates are for? Let me help you with the answer: Security issues.

WOW! (That deserves a WOW, not Vista :p) Ok, well to you not getting any malware on your MS Box (for all that time), I must congratulate you. You are either A) NOT telling the truth or B) The Luckiest/Smartest Windows/MS user on the planet, I don't know which. I can only say in my experience, every windows user (I know a LOT) I know has been hit by at least one bit of spyware, virus, trojan, worm or other associated malware in their lifetime that has caused them grief . I know I've been using MS since the DOS 4.x days right to end of XP, you don't wanna hear my war stories from all of em, and I tend to think me and my dad kept a tight ship on security.

As for patches in Ubuntu, more the merrier. More security fixes = less holes = less likely to ever see wild virus for Linux.

Oh and if patching is what your judging an OS, how about MS and the ANSI hole in Windows XP and Vista they sat on for months (6+ if I remember right).

Edit: Darn it, Destiny Boy beat me to post :p.

[shijirou]

You would also have to consider local culture. Here in the Philippines which is a Microsoft Product dominated country, "colonial mentality" has dictated that Filipinos use Windows. The IT sector is beginning to boom but they're still blinded into thinking that Windows is everything.

Every now and then when I'm at coffee shops that have wifi, people are often curious and amazed at what I was doing with Beryl. You tell them its Linux, they say, "Li... wha???" I've been doing a personal survey to see if anyone is using linux. Sad to say, only 1 out of 50 personally use Linux. Even in offices, Microsoft is the way to go and a select few (who run servers in offices) use linux.

I guess this is one more factor to deal with.

[wolfen69]

God, I'm so tired of this broken record excuse. "Ewww....ewwww....there are so many viruses attacking me...ewwww..ewwww...i can't handle the security issues...ewww". I've been using MS products since DOS 1.0 and have NEVER been hit with a virus, worm, trojan...you name it. A week doesn't go by without getting a security update for Ubuntu. Funny no one talks about that. What the hell do you think those updates are for? Let me help you with the answer: Security issues.

there may be some people out there that have gotten viruses, and decided to switch. a personal choice. i really dont think the majority of linux users switched because of viruses.
i myself, switched for other reasons.

btw, i'm really happy for you that you never got a virus. move along and have a nice day.

[diatribe]

Its hard to upgrade an OS you don't have. I've hated windows since 3.11, and I remember trying to install slackware off 4 cds about 10 years ago. That experience kind of helped me stay with windows; at the time I had a winmodem which meant no internet. In that time things have progressed, though, and I would never use another windows machine again unless made to.

[kenthomson799]

I loved my games absolutely. FPS, RTS, Simulation you name it! I was on all of them. A significant part of my life was devoted to gaming, but that is what my life is for--pursue whatever i find most enjoying. But than came a google video.RMS, then more of RMS. That fellow literally brain-washed me. So i searched for distros, and than Ubuntu. I am having Ubuntu since about a year now. And all the ubuntu's bug reports, errors, trouble-shooting, reading documentation, reading Read-me's, online HowTos has left no time for me to game. But still that has left a bitter taste in my mouth, my love for "freedom" let me to give up one of my enjoyments. Still once in a while i see a fabulous FPS and am really lured back into windows, i think after i have had "enough" of Ubuntu--the perpetual lure of games on a windows PC would pull me back. If only i can convince myself that all those jaw-dropping high-res action is evil.

[KiwiNZ]

All we are talking about is an Operating system.

Some like Ubuntu
Some like Tiger
Some like Windows

This OS best suits me
This OS best suits you
This OS suits the guy next door

Its just an Operating System THATS ALL

This endless my one is better than your one is old , very old .Lets move on from it please

[Stew2]

Agreed, check my sig. :D

[init1]

Upgrade? I would consider it a downgrade, personally. I have better things to do with my money

[mech7]

Upgrade? I would consider it a downgrade, personally. I have better things to do with my money

It barely costs anything with a new pc :)

[acm79]

vista? sorry but not me...i have 60gb hard drive on my laptop, i'm not gonna waste about 15gb to have that. i've wasted almost 5gb space for xp and it's definetely too much coz i don't use it :)

[starcraft.man]

It barely costs anything with a new pc :)

costs even less if you build your own machine and buy from the right places (and of course don't pay for Vista) ;)

[mech7]

costs even less if you build your own machine and buy from the right places (and of course don't pay for Vista) ;)

Depends i like to configure my own system but some of the times it is not cheaper at all because offcourse the large companies can save allot on production :)

[Lord Illidan]

A colleague of mine - a computer engineer and a fan of Linux is also upgrading to Vista. He loves HL2 and it needs DX 10. So, you have that from a linux fan and an expert in his field.

As for myself, maybe in the future I will. Right now I don't need it.

[DJ Wings]

We are at war with Linux. We have always been at war with Linux. Apple is our ally against Linux.
2+2=5! Big Ballmer is watching you!

[Quillz]

Uh, I think you forgot the gab in minimum requirements is enormous from Ubuntu to Vista... I mean I can run (and by run I mean smooth and with lots of open apps) Beryl/Gnome on my old p4 with just a (1) GB or regular ram and my dated 6800 GT... If I popped Vista on it, I'd like to see Aero run properly with more than an app open >.>.

Anyway, I firmly believe I won't ever be touching Vista, and I do happen to be a gamer as well. How is this you ask? FallingLeaf, (http://www.fallingleafsystems.com/) like in the autumn... I'm not gonna be forced to buy something thats crap just cuz gave devs won't code for opengl/Linux...

It seems a sad day to me though when people believe they "have to" buy an OS to do something... very sad indeed.
I have Vista installed on my laptop with 1 GB of RAM, and I can easily run 20+ apps at any given time with no slowdown in Aero Glass. Have you actually bothered to use Vista? No, you haven't, as you said in the same post. Don't senselessly bash the OS just because you dislike it.

[STREETURCHINE]

I read this quote more or less on any tech site (particularly gaming sites) I visit. Whenever there's a thread talking about Vista, even those who are reluctant to move to Vista argue that no-one really has any choice. They assume that ultimately we'll ALL have to upgrade to Vista whether we like it or not.

The thing that annoys me is that people don't seem to believe that they have a choice. Most of these people are aware of things like Linux, but don't believe it's worth the effort for whatever reason. People, techy people at least, know of the alternatives, but it's always the gaming that keeps them on Windows for some reason. I understand that, but you can game on Linux too, just not the latest and greatest I suppose. Why do people just completely lock-out any alternatives though? Are people really that close minded? Does Linux need more commercial games, or do people need a different mindset?

Some background of my own: prior to converting to Ubuntu, I was a gamer. A fairly big one. I still like my games, but I do more with my time these days and so gaming isn't as much of an issue as it was. There are things I can play in Linux, like Uplink, Urban Terror, Wolf ET and many more. Still, I believed the quality of an OS should outweigh the trivial things like games (and ultimately they are trivial compared to what computers can do), hence the move to Ubuntu.

We're going to have trouble furthering the ranks of Linux users if people are stuck in the mindset of "oh well, we don't really have a choice. We HAVE to upgrade to the next version of Windows, and despite the lack of control I have about it, I'll blissfully go along with it." People DO have control, they just need to act on it.

I find it scary if people think they have no control anymore. Lack of control is a more serious issue than playing a computer game, isn't it?

not this black duck i have several flavours of linux installed on two computers and also have xp on each of these. and there aint a hope in hell of vista getting on any of them .
xp is there to stay,it still has its uses.

[smoker]

I read this quote more or less on any tech site (particularly gaming sites) I visit. Whenever there's a thread talking about Vista, even those who are reluctant to move to Vista argue that no-one really has any choice. They assume that ultimately we'll ALL have to upgrade to Vista whether we like it or not.

i've tried vista twice out of curiousity, home premium and ultimate (no, i didn't pay for it!), and personally, i don't see what all the fuss is about, it isn't a patch on xp, is even more full of unwanted crud than xp, and is still a magnet for all the malicious crap on the internet. it is now no longer polluting my hard drive, and i doubt if it ever will again. i would feel ripped off if i paid $1 for a pirate copy, never mind what they 'legally' charge for it:(

microsoft should get back to basics, and stick to what they used to be good at, producing OS's, instead of trying to trap everyone into endless drm folly...

[Quillz]

i've tried vista twice out of curiousity, home premium and ultimate (no, i didn't pay for it!), and personally, i don't see what all the fuss is about, it isn't a patch on xp, is even more full of unwanted crud than xp, and is still a magnet for all the malicious crap on the internet. it is now no longer polluting my hard drive, and i doubt if it ever will again. i would feel ripped off if i paid $1 for a pirate copy, never mind what they 'legally' charge for it:(

microsoft should get back to basics, and stick to what they used to be good at, producing OS's, instead of trying to trap everyone into endless drm folly...
Well, then, based on your own comments, you've obviously not tried Vista at all. It does not have any DRM, if that was the case, no one in the world would be able to play any pirated music at all, which is simply wrong. Not to mention that Windows has never, and never will, come with any trialware. Vista includes no more default applications that XP, and actually includes far less than Ubuntu does.

[smoker]

Well, then, based on your own comments, you've obviously not tried Vista at all. It does not have any DRM, if that was the case, no one in the world would be able to play any pirated music at all, which is simply wrong. Not to mention that Windows has never, and never will, come with any trialware. Vista includes no more default applications that XP, and actually includes far less than Ubuntu does.

you've obviously not lived in the real world. type 'vista drm' in google, or here's a link to start with:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/12/27/windows_drm_monstered/

i didn't mention anything about trialware, so i don't know where you are coming from there! there is enough bloated crap in vista without adding more through trialware.

[Quillz]

you've obviously not lived in the real world. type 'vista drm' in google, or here's a link to start with:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/12/27/windows_drm_monstered/

i didn't mention anything about trialware, so i don't know where you are coming from there! there is enough bloated crap in vista without adding more through trialware.
What bloated crap are you referring to? What is bloated to you may not be bloated to someone else. Personally, I dislike OpenOffice in Ubuntu, to me, it's bloatware, since I have to get rid of it and use KOffice or AbiWord instead.

[smiggs]

i've tried vista twice out of curiousity, home premium and ultimate (no, i didn't pay for it!), and personally, i don't see what all the fuss is about, it isn't a patch on xp, is even more full of unwanted crud than xp, and is still a magnet for all the malicious crap on the internet. it is now no longer polluting my hard drive, and i doubt if it ever will again. i would feel ripped off if i paid $1 for a pirate copy, never mind what they 'legally' charge for it:(

microsoft should get back to basics, and stick to what they used to be good at, producing OS's, instead of trying to trap everyone into endless drm folly...

I fail to see what xp has that vista doesn't apart from application support and perhaps being a little lighter resource wise. But these are always going to be a problem for any OS that is essentially an upgrade of a 5 year old product, I'm sure you'd struggle with similar issues if you took a Linux distribution from five years ago and tried to upgrade to one something current.

The DRM content in Vista is for playing DRM enabled content not destroying the content you already have, I've not had any problems using my ogg music collection and pretty much anything else I throw at it. I've not had any degradation of video or music or problems with drivers, in fact I'm currently using 'unsigned' drivers for my soundcard without problems.

However most of Vista's improvements are cosmetic and rather disappointing considering how much you might be expected to spend on an upgrade. It's emergence should not hinder the growth of Linux and perhaps presents an opportunity if hardware and software compatibility are a long term barrier to upgrade for some users. Without doubt though it is not a dead duck and those who predict Microsoft's demise on the back of it's release are gravely mistaken.

[smoker]

What bloated crap are you referring to? What is bloated to you may not be bloated to someone else. Personally, I dislike OpenOffice in Ubuntu, to me, it's bloatware, since I have to get rid of it and use KOffice or AbiWord instead.

i'm not talking about applications, i'm talking about the operating system, the size of it, the amount of space it needs to install, the unneeded and unwanted services, the hardware it needs to run without a crawl. there are some clever people who have reduced the size of a working xp install to just over 200mb by removing non-essential stuff, and reduced the size of a vista install to fit it on a CD. obviously, although available, they would be illegal to obtain, and download and try, so i am not going to post any links, even if i knew:D but, i daresay, anyone seeking info could find what they are looking for easily enough.

i'm sure vista is alright for some people, and good luck to them, me, i will stay well away.

[kamaboko]

i'm not talking about applications, i'm talking about the operating system, the size of it, the amount of space it needs to install, the unneeded and unwanted services, the hardware it needs to run without a crawl. there are some clever people who have reduced the size of a working xp install to just over 200mb by removing non-essential stuff, and reduced the size of a vista install to fit it on a CD. obviously, although available, they would be illegal to obtain, and download and try, so i am not going to post any links, even if i knew:D but, i daresay, anyone seeking info could find what they are looking for easily enough.

i'm sure vista is alright for some people, and good luck to them, me, i will stay well away.

Here's a thought. Hold on though, it might just blow you away. Some people use these services. Furthermore, some people, including me, have a job and can afford to drop $60 for a GB of memory so our machines don't run slow as sh_t.

[burt_57]

I am not going to go Vista anytime soon.
Why?
Because I am tired of one OS having it all.
Like to see Linux improve on gaming.
I have been on Windows Xp pro only twice since I install Ubuntu.
Now I am working with the Ubuntu UlTIMATE from CD. ;)
Anyway XP will be running with upgrade till the year 2011.
I never had problem with the XP , because I know how to make it run safe.
Ubuntu is a challege for me and I like it.

[juxtaposed]

It does not have any DRM

...

I have Vista installed on my laptop with 1 GB of RAM, and I can easily run 20+ apps at any given time with no slowdown in Aero Glass.

If an OS runs really bad on 512MB RAM (like people who use it, and like it, though they had alot more RAM said) then there is something wrong with it.

there are some clever people who have reduced the size of a working xp install to just over 200mb by removing non-essential stuff, and reduced the size of a vista install to fit it on a CD. obviously, although available, they would be illegal to obtain, and download and try, so i am not going to post any links, even if i knew but, i daresay, anyone seeking info could find what they are looking for easily enough.

Anyone can make their own instead of downloading it.

nLite (www.nliteos.com) & vLite (http://www.vlite.net/)

[smoker]

Anyone can make their own instead of downloading it.

nLite (www.nliteos.com) & vLite (http://www.vlite.net/)

thanks for the links,

cheers:D