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Knome_fan
June 9th, 2005, 10:25 PM
Disclaimer:
I don't know if this post falls in the "unwanted threads" category one is not supposed to start here, whatever these may be. If it does, I'm sure you'll simply delete it and I offer my appologies for bothering you preemptively.

But as this seems to be essentially the one part of the forum where users can give feedback about the forum, this seems to be the right place to post my grievences.

Anyway, here it goes.
I'm about to stop attending this forum. (Yes, I know, this isn't really world shattering. in fact, noone but me will and should care and I'm well aware of this). But as I really think that this forum is great in many ways and I really appreciate the work you people do here, I thought it would maybe be a good idea to post the reasons why I am leaving, so that you can decide if either I'm simply a total jerk, or if maybe somethings could improve in the future.

Basicly I have been very annoyed by the way some moderators act in this forum. (Now talk about something new here, users complaining about moderators...)

As an example that really annoyed me, let me point out a thread about the release of debian sarge:
http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=39837

Now some people made negative comments about debian in this thread, which lead to the following reaction by azz:


To anyone complaining about Debian and what It cannot do: Become a Debian Developer and improve it or shut up!

Debian is a general-purpose distribution. It does not meet the same needs as Ubuntu. (although, it can) If you do not understand this and continue to insult debian, I will lock this thread.

I'm sorry, but telling people to shut up certainly isn't the way to behave for a moderator. On top of that, I really feel that this kind of reaction was totally unwaranted.
Be that as it may, azz informed me that distro bashing is not tolerated on this forum whatsoever.

So far so good (or not), but now take a look at the following thread:
http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=40046
which turned predictably into a gentoo bashing with users posting funny photos showing lego figures drilling the behinds of other lego figures, all with the caption:
Gentoo Linux - Build your own excitement - Piece. By. Piece

Now don't get me wrong, even though I'm a long time gentoo user, I found this very funny, however, I have a very hard time to reconcile this with the no tolerance for distro bashing policy azz mentioned.
However, posting pictures like this and bashing gentoo didn't bother some moderators the least, on the contrary, they happily participated in it.

Then finally I posted a thread about a funny photo I found on Jeff Waughs blog (that can also be found on planet.gnome.org and planet.ubuntu.com btw.). Now this thread isn't in anyway important or anything, but it was simply annoying to see it being deleted and not even getting a message about what had happened.

Anyway, curious as I am, I contacted a moderator to ask what exactly had happened and I got the reply that it had been deleted for being inapropriate and I should consider myself warned now. (Why you first have to contact a moderator yourself to be warned is beyond me, btw.)

Just to clear this up a little bit I informed the moderator about who had posted the picture in the first place and that it even could be found on planet.gnome.org, only to recieve an answer that explained that planet.gnome.org and planet.ubuntu.com are only private blogs, whereas this forum is an official extension of Ubuntu/Canonical and has professional policies and procedures.

Now this holier than thou and we are so important attitude really is annoying and rediculous in and of itself, but combined with the gentoo bashing thread mentioned before, which really drips of professional policies and procedures, to say the least, this has really shown to me that staying active on this forum will inevitably lead to being annoyed again and again and isn't really worth it in the end.

So, that's it.
It has become more of a rant than I intended, but rest assured, I really appreciate the work you guys put in this forum and I know that it isn't always easy to deal with users, but I think at least some moderators should also look critical at the way they behave and perhaps all of you should be clearer about the rules, that actually apply in this forum, so as to avoid things like the ones I mentioned from happening constantly and annoying people.

rjstevens3
June 9th, 2005, 10:31 PM
I'm sorry that you're upset, but people suck. its just a fact of life. when ever i post or read a post, i expect 80% of people to be retarded... most people are dumb in real life, but the internet just makes it worse.

good luck finding a better forum, let us know if you find one. there is a lot of info here, even not everyone is respectful and professional

kvidell
June 9th, 2005, 10:39 PM
I half agree with your synopsis on Azz's reaction to the debian thread...
Yes, some people were being brash, but it's what you're to expect.
I was actually highly offended by what Azz said there, as I'm not a developer and shouldn't have to be to make a distro work. There are developers who do that, and if they're failing in their job, it's not my fault.
I'm a sysadmin. My job function is to try to make work what is already available to me, and if a distrobution is deemed unusable by me, I simply find another one. Simple as pie (Or easy breezy ;) hehehe)
However I also understand that Azz has been on this forum a LOT longer than I have, and his fuse may just be EXTREMELY short with what he may deem as "distro bashing", so I didn't pay it much mind at the time, and just passed it off as understood.

I'm sorry such things have persuaded you to leave. I've had a thread or two of mine locked or deleted, it doesn't phase me.
I just assume I did something wrong and move on.
Even if some of their posts are less than encouraging, having been a moderator of multiple types of services in the past and knowing the kind of people who help run the OSS community and it's "extensions", I have faith that they wont take drastic actions such as those unless truly warranted.

And you can just ignore certain posts by skipping over them if you think they're going to upset you :)
I have a few people ignored on this forum, but I read all of their posts, but only once. It's nicer that way when I'm recapping a thread, I can then VERY easily skip posts that I don't care about.

Sorry to see you go, and kudos for the avatar :)
- Kev

az
June 10th, 2005, 12:29 AM
My job is to make sure that the forums respect certain rules. It was decided that distro bashing was a problem and we do not tolerate it.

The thread in question was interesting, but was quickly turning into a bash-fest. I said what I needed to say to get the thread back on track. The other options would be to lock the thread or to tolerate distibution-bashing.

If you do not like what I say, tell me. Knome-fan messaged me to tell me this and I answered basically what I answered here. I also invited him to get more closely involved in the forums through other projects.

panickedthumb
June 10th, 2005, 12:32 AM
I won't say anything qualitative about the situation, because azz covered it well, but imagine if everyone involved in open-source projects just left when they had a disagreement with someone. Imagine if that happened in government or in companies.

You can't just leave because you get upset over something.

Well, you can, but you're only hurting the situation.

If you want to leave, then nobody's stopping you. We'll hold the door open for you and wave a friendly goodbye. But you have to ask yourself-- what is the good in leaving?

I wanted to move to Canada for the longest time because of George W Bush, but then I realized that if I left because I didn't agree with the policies, and everyone who felt the same as me left, then the country would go to crap much quicker. Someone has to stay and be the voice of the other side.

I'm not saying you're right, I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying that if you leave it doesn't matter, because you're simply giving up.

kvidell
June 10th, 2005, 12:33 AM
My job is to make sure that the forums respect certain rules. It was decided that distro bashing was a problem and we do not tolerate it.

The thread in question was interesting, but was quickly turning into a bash-fest. I said what I needed to say to get the thread back on track. The other options would be to lock the thread or to tolerate distibution-bashing.

If you do not like what I say, tell me. Knome-fan messaged me to tell me this and I answered basically what I answered here. I also invited him to get more closely involved in the forums through other projects.
well, like I said, it offended me but I also understood other posibilities so I took it with a grain of salt and continued on my merry way.

I only take matters to the level of private discussion if I think it's going to affect my want to interact in the community, and that didn't.

All's well by me :) You did what you had to do and I respect your actions.
- Kev

gil-galad
June 10th, 2005, 12:56 AM
It sounds like you just had a brush with a moderator and took it personally. Remember moderators are people too and make mistakes. Just punch them in the face and move on.

bored2k
June 10th, 2005, 12:58 AM
You should have really not taken any clash with one of us personally.


WE ASK THE USERS ON THE UBUNTUFORUMS TO PLEASE FOLLOW THE UBUNTU CODE OF CONDUCT (http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/conduct) and....

1. Be polite. This is a end user forum community, moderated by ubuntu users.

2. The administrators will often ask for general input on forum changes, please respect their choices. Moderators will often edit posts as they see fit please respect their choices.

az
June 10th, 2005, 01:25 AM
I posted earlier when I only had a second....

The thing people are on about is that ubuntuforums moderators are holier-than-thou. What you have to remember is that we must abide by the Ubuntu code of conduct which is quite strict. It seems to be much stricter than other forums.

The whole point of ubuntu is to appeal to all humans. That means that you have to be very conservative in what you say (and show). It is wonderful that Ubuntu can appeal to and satisfy a great span of diverse people. For example, in some cultures, the ubuntu-monthly calendar is taboo. The great thing about Ubuntu is that things like that are not installed by default, but still available.

Canonical can distribute it and get away with not offending the different culteres since it is installed by the user, of the user's choice.

Since this is a public forum, users are not given as vast a choice. We must keep things bland and neutral.

It has been brought up among moderators the need for a "Rated-R' thread. A pub, if you will. A forum where users who are not offended by more colorful language or conversations can have some fun with their Ubuntu. It currently is problematic to authenticate people by age and we cannot yet proceed with such a forum.

Knome-fan was dedicated to these forums. Long before he was Knome-fan, he was passionate enough about Ubuntu to make many contributions to the forums. Thanks. We hope you reconsider leaving. I meant it when I said that you can buy me a beer and we can talk about politics....:)

I am dissapointed than you are leaving.

WildTangent
June 10th, 2005, 02:48 AM
im pretty used to iron-fisted moderation on other forums on im (not saying thats how you guys operate, just illustrating that i deal with worse), so being told to shut up by a mod doesnt faze me at all :) one thought i do have about:

"It currently is problematic to authenticate people by age and we cannot yet proceed with such a forum."

i personally disagree with such things, if you say youre 18 or older when you sign up, and youre really 15, and then see something you dont like, you cant complain, because YOU said you were 18 or over. the way i see it, you guys are covered as long as you ask in the first place

-Wild

crane
June 10th, 2005, 03:31 AM
I think the mods do a fine job. Sometimes I may not agree with theway they do something but still understand why they did it.





I'm sorry that you're upset, but people suck. its just a fact of life. when ever i post or read a post, i expect 80% of people to be retarded... most people are dumb in real life, but the internet just makes it worse.

good luck finding a better forum, let us know if you find one. there is a lot of info here, even not everyone is respectful and professional

:x
you fall under your own discription
not everyone is respectful and professional :mad:

weekend warrior
June 10th, 2005, 08:35 AM
I feel obligated to respond as my posting was referred to here. I posted the Gentoo Linux Lego photo. First off, please note I did offer an apology right before the photo. However of more import is understanding the reasoning why this wasn't considered "bashing" but rather simply poking fun, or having a laugh. You see those are the key words - "fun", "laugh" and I would add for everyone.

There's a fine line between laughing at someone and laughing with someone. As you yourself said Knome_fan, you (as a "long time Gentoo user") in your own words "found this very funny". That's the difference. It's about the spirit of how it's done. My intention, with winky smileys et all could only with great difficulty be seen as intending to bash or harm. It was simply having a laugh, nothing more.

The Debian Sarge thread by contrast wasn't going down that path at all. It was a continuing litany of insults. Though I do agree azz's wording "shut up" was too close to "STFU". It was poorly phrased.

I didn't see the photo you posted Knome_fan but I'm fairly certain I know the blog photo in question. This is clearly different from my Gentoo Lego posting as a Lego montage is obviously not the same as posting a real photo of three nude women on all fours with their buttocks satirizing Canonical/ubuntu's logo!! If indeed this is the photo in question, I'm stunned you're even trying to draw a parallel. This isn't even a question of a fine line to be followed! Rather, it's just common sense.

Whether or not one has followed that line or simple common sense can be judged by the response. You'll note that Gentoo users (former and/or current) weren't up in arms over the Lego photo. Nor was it followed by negative posts which might lead to back and forth insults. The spirit in which I posted was clearly tongue in cheek with winky winks placed for good measure and well within acceptable decorum for these forums.

I hope this helps clear things up at least as concerns to my post.

bored2k
June 10th, 2005, 08:47 AM
If indeed this is the photo in question, I'm stunned you're even trying to draw a parallel. This isn't even a question of a fine line to be followed! Rather, it's just common sense.
It was indeed that picture, wich is why I (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/member.php?u=8743) deleted the thread. It was completely [-X inappropiate to our forums. These type of images will never be allowed here.

Once again I post,

Moderators will often edit posts as they see fit please respect their choices.

poofyhairguy
June 10th, 2005, 10:29 AM
Now don't get me wrong, even though I'm a long time gentoo user, I found this very funny, however, I have a very hard time to reconcile this with the no tolerance for distro bashing policy azz mentioned.
However, posting pictures like this and bashing gentoo didn't bother some moderators the least, on the contrary, they happily participated in it.

We have a no tolerance rule for hate filled distro bashing. The Gentoo picture is very funny and is in good humor. I also added a funny lego pic (that at worst was off-topic). Iif the original would have been something perverted or hateful, it would have be terminated. Thats the line- a blurry one. Just like a lot of other times in life.

No tolerance policies that fail to take into account context are only good for machines and narcs. Since people need to blow off steam anyway, its better that they do it in a good natured manner. I will never have a problem with that.

kvidell
June 10th, 2005, 10:49 AM
I will never have a problem with that.How could you with Brian as your avatar? ^.^;

On the topic of an "R Rated" area, I think istead of "verifying" people's ages, since this is an international community hosted on private servers, the most you'd have to do is put up a simple disclaimer (Something more than a sticky, like one of those announcements that are used to note the donation status).

Not much anyone could say at that point, is there?
Ubuntu-Geek does run the server personally, ya? All that's needed next to it being an international network/community of people. Can't enforce US laws in Sweden...

Just a thought,
- Kev

az
June 10th, 2005, 04:21 PM
How could you with Brian as your avatar? ^.^;

On the topic of an "R Rated" area, I think istead of "verifying" people's ages, since this is an international community hosted on private servers, the most you'd have to do is put up a simple disclaimer (Something more than a sticky, like one of those announcements that are used to note the donation status).

Not much anyone could say at that point, is there?
Ubuntu-Geek does run the server personally, ya? All that's needed next to it being an international network/community of people. Can't enforce US laws in Sweden...

Just a thought,
- Kev


If it were that simple, it would already be done. It is not about enforcing US laws, but respecting the standards imposed by Canonical.