Boycott Novell, DO NOT Buy, Use or Redistribute SUSE

[unipal]

Boycott Novell

11.27.06
DO NOT Buy, Use or Redistribute SUSE

Posted in Boycott Novell, Microsoft, Novell, Opensuse, FUD, Intellectual Property, GPL, Action, Patent Covenant at 12:40 pm by Shane Coyle

As RMS and others have been pointing out, the loophole for Novell in this deal is that MS is giving their patent offer to Novell’s customers (the actual wording is those copies for which Novell has received revenue, with a definition to include upgrades). So, as a Novell Customer you enjoy the benefits of the MS Patent Pledge as a result of Novell’s deal with Microsoft. Great for you, but one problem: you may not be able to redistribute GPL code now.

Think about it, if Section 7 doesn’t apply to Novell since they are not receiving the patent covenant - but the customers who are receiving it. By supporting Novell, you accept these new conditions imposed by Microsoft, you may not be able to simultaneously adhere to the MS Patent Pledge and the conditions of the GPL, since any distribution outside of giving back to OpenSUSE.org is disallowed by the MS Patent Pledge.

Novell customers may have to thank Novell for entering into this agreement with Microsoft on their behalf, their little loophole for attempting to circumvent the GPL. Eben Moglen says that not Novell but its customers may be violating the GPL if they redistribute the software:

[If] the patent license Microsoft has granted to Novell customers only extends to Novell customers, then Novell customers cannot redistribute the software freely. According to Moglen, this may violate the terms of the license.

The community needs to turn its back on Novell and SUSE, DO NOT USE, BUY, REDISTRIBUTE or HOST NOVELL or SUSE. Boycott Novell.

Please, as I have stated before, do not think that I have any animous towards the folks in the OpenSUSE community, just get a new name and website (you can keep the code, it’s GPL).

http://boycottnovell.com/2006/11/27/do-not-buy-use-or-redistribute-suse/

[darksong]

I don't see why people have such a negative view on the deal that they have made with microsoft. What better way to make your product more viable and useable to everyone than making it more compatible with the MOST popular os at the current time.

So what they used a few loop holes in the GNU in order to do this. But think of what this could bring to the OpenSuSe distrobution and hopefully other distro. We could be seing things like MS office and Windows Media player in Linux.

[tombott]

Everybody is entitled to their own opinion, but I happen to think this is kind of sad and pathetic.

Novell have been F**ked over by Microsoft so much it's a miracle that they still exist.

Anybody who has used Novell Netware from 3 - 6.5 will know what a fantastic Network OS it was and still is.

Novell are trying to make it easier to integrate Netware, Linux and Microsoft platforms! Is this really such a bad thing?

Novell pay to develop SuSe, and then you or anybody else can download it for free! So why boycott them! Bite the hand that feeds you or what?

[karellen]

who cares what RMS and other zealots say? certainly not me...

[Lord Illidan]

who cares what RMS says? certainly not me...

Um, RMS didn't boycott SUSE, Shane Coyle did...at least that's what I am gathering here.

And...we do have Novell to thank for XGL, for maintaining beagle, and other gnome projects...I think we are a bit too hard on them.

[floke]

I don't see why people have such a negative view on the deal that they have made with microsoft....think of what this could bring to the OpenSuSe distrobution and hopefully other distro. We could be seing things like MS office and Windows Media player in Linux.

:lolflag: :lolflag:

We need a smilie for overly sarastic use of the :lolflag:

If anyone thinks this is a good deal they need to get their head out of their backsides. You do know why MS added the patent clause (at the last minute, incidentally) don't you? You do know what Balmy Ballmer has been going around saying about Linux and IP infringements now, don't you? You have seen the way they press this FUD in their attacks on Linux (eg Get the Crap campaign) haven't you? You have read the MS internal strategy documents from the Berlin meeting in which it was noted that the only attacks on Linux that weren't counterproductive were ones based on IP infringement, haven't you? You do know that if MS were really concerned about interoperability then they would have abided by (from numerous examples) the legally binding ruling of the European Commission on information disclosure, don't you?

Or is endangering the future of Linux ok because you get Beagle?

[Rhapsody]

I was going to post a message similar to what Steve.K posted, but couldn't think of a good way to put it. Glad to see I'm not needed.

I will say that the first two posters seem to be focusing on the interoperability part of the Novell-Microsoft agreement, then wondering why people are angry. If that interoperability bit was the only significant part, then no one would be angry. That bit is fine, and can be quite productive.

The problem is that the deal also includes a patent agreement, whereby Novell (by agreeing to it) have given Microsoft free licence to make claims about patent infringements in Linux. Understandably, Novell has taken an absolute hammering in regards to this, and Microsoft's attempt at creating a chilling effect in Linux development has failed quite spectacularly (it seems nothing short of a patent lawsuit will stop Linux development, and we all know Microsoft is bluffing).

[old_geekster]

Give M$ an inch and we will all be using "Winlin".

You can laugh if you want to, but M$ has billions setting there with nothing to do, but protect its interests.

[darksong]

:lolflag: :lolflag:

We need a smilie for overly sarastic use of the :lolflag:

If anyone thinks this is a good deal they need to get their head out of their backsides. You do know why MS added the patent clause (at the last minute, incidentally) don't you? You do know what Balmy Ballmer has been going around saying about Linux and IP infringements now, don't you? You have seen the way they press this FUD in their attacks on Linux (eg Get the Crap campaign) haven't you? You have read the MS internal strategy documents from the Berlin meeting in which it was noted that the only attacks on Linux that weren't counterproductive were ones based on IP infringement, haven't you? You do know that if MS were really concerned about interoperability then they would have abided by (from numerous examples) the legally binding ruling of the European Commission on information disclosure, don't you?

Or is endangering the future of Linux ok because you get Beagle?

A uncalled for flame and the attitude of that post is terrible. I am glad there are more open minded people on this forum.

[floke]

Is someone 'open minded' only if they agree with you?

I've examined the agreement and I've examined Microsoft's relationship/strategy towards Linux in general, then arrived at my own conclusion. That seems to be fairly 'open-minded' to me.

Can you say the same?

[karellen]

I like the freedom to choose whatever product suits my needs better, wheter it's ubuntu, opensuse, windows or mac os x. and I want no silly boycott over a company that has done many good things and improvements for linux

[Tomosaur]

A uncalled for flame and the attitude of that post is terrible. I am glad there are more open minded people on this forum.

I don't see how it's a 'flame'. A little sarcastic maybe, but it's hardly offensive. In any case, he's right. The MS/Novell deal is a very grave thing for Linux, and Novell should be ashamed of themselves for ever entering into such a deal. Yes, interoperability is a fine thing to have, but if anyone suggests for a minute that MS really care about interoperability, then they don't know a thing about MS. Let's look at the facts, shall we?

1) Linux has always strived to be a network OS. It was designed with networking in mind, and it has maintained this goal. There are areas which can be improved, yes, but the general consensus is that interoperability is good, and we should strive to achieve it.

2) Windows was designed for a single user. Over time, bits have been added on here and there to make it more of a multi-user system, but the simple fact is that it was designed wrong from the beginning, and MS have paid the price through endless security holes and general sloppiness.

3) Windows is the least interoperable platform on the planet. It doesn't even like living on the same machine as a different OS, for crying out loud. It's bootloader refuses to recognise anything other than Windows, and everything is locked away to protect MS' 'intellectual property'. Frankly, you're lucky anyone can develop anything which works with Windows.

4) Windows' latest outing - Vista, is the least friendly operating system ever created. There are so many restrictions and vendor protective measures in place that it's amazing anything works on it at all. You HAVE to buy certain hardware, you are extremely limited in what you can do with your own media and software (never mind the OS itself), and you are generally tied down and restricted from the moment you accept the EULA.

5) Microsoft regularly ignore established standards, refuse to adequately document their own internal standards so that development is possible outside of Microsoft, and actively refuse co-operation with third party developers who want to implement interoperability. They use their monopoly and their vast wealth to bully competitors into submission, and threaten competitors who try to improve interoperability.

So, do you still believe Microsoft care one bit about interoperability? They care about Windows to Windows interoperability, sure, but MS refuse to recognise the right of any other OS to simply exist. They continuously get in the way of the people who try to improve the situation, and then have the audacity to claim that their pact with Novell is anything other than a sneaky, backstabbing attempt at stopping Linux' growth.

[floke]

=D>

I like the freedom to choose whatever product suits my needs better, wheter it's ubuntu, opensuse, windows or mac os x. and I want no silly boycott over a company that has done many good things and improvements for linux

No-one's forcing you to do anything; although MS think you should pay them for using Linux. I don't think you'll find many supporters of that view around here, but as you say, you're free to choose.

[kaz5209]

hey guys,

i really don't understand the issue here and i am not defending anyone, just so we r clear.

i am all with the Linux good , M$ bad thing , i have been defending Open source for years now in a region where you won't find many that have heard about Open Source, or can even imagine life beyond Windows

i understand that Novell payed M$ so they wont sue them if they ever sue Linux users for IP rights

but what makes this dangerous to other linux users

and why is the GPL being changed over it, if someone can plz give an explanation

[rocknrolf77]

I don't like the deal but Novell has done more good for linux than bad. If we start bashing eachother how can we take over any of the market? The parody commercials they made is really good : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LAXg_UmzTY&mode=related&search= :)

[nocturn]

Um, RMS didn't boycott SUSE, Shane Coyle did...at least that's what I am gathering here.

And...we do have Novell to thank for XGL, for maintaining beagle, and other gnome projects...I think we are a bit too hard on them.

No, we are not. A company is not a person. The people that decided to give use XGL etc are not automaticly the same as the ones making this deal.

The deal goes against the principles of Free Software as well as the spirit of the GPL. It's a shame a company with such a good reputation formerly had to engage in such behavior.

I'm glad the GPLv3 will be updated to stop this abuse.

[nocturn]

Is someone 'open minded' only if they agree with you?

I've examined the agreement and I've examined Microsoft's relationship/strategy towards Linux in general, then arrived at my own conclusion. That seems to be fairly 'open-minded' to me.

Can you say the same?

Steve, I don't disagree with what you are saying, but keep the discussion friendly please.

[dbbolton]

i think i'll go ahead any buy, with my own money, whatever i please at all times.

[nocturn]

i think i'll go ahead any buy, with my own money, whatever i please at all times.

Nobody can or tries to stop you from doing that. A boycott is a legitimate way to tell a company that you do not agree with what it is doing, be it something you find illegal or immoral.

The call for a boycott leaves you free to join or ignore it.

Now, all Free Software developers out there on the other hand are also free to license their software however they want and those who do not like this deal can choose the GPLv3 when it is released.

If enough important projects do this, Novell might have a very hard time building a distribution.

[nocturn]

I like the freedom to choose whatever product suits my needs better, wheter it's ubuntu, opensuse, windows or mac os x. and I want no silly boycott over a company that has done many good things and improvements for linux

They gave Microsoft munition to use in their patent extortion business. Thanks Novell.

[karellen]

they (Novell) probably thought it worth all the bashing they knew it will come, the advantages of interoperability stuff and so on...I'm really looking forward to see openoffice reading .docx office 2007 documents. that is the part of the deal I'm concerned of. not idealism :). I USE an os, not make from it a metaphysical thing

[nocturn]

they (Novell) probably thought it worth all the bashing they knew it will come, the advantages of interoperability stuff and so on...I'm really looking forward to see openoffice reading .docx office 2007 documents. that is the part of the deal I'm concerned of. not idealism :). I USE an os, not make from it a metaphysical thing

Nice, but as the site referenced by the OP points out, they are forking OpenOffice into an incompatible product (partially). So, you may use OO on SLED and create a document Ubuntu OO users cannot open.

To be clear, OO allows this forking, but most GPL'ed software doesn't.

What Novell is doing is splitting the Linux community granting more rights to one part of it. This violates the spirit of the GPL in any version and will be explicitly dealt with in v3. So Novell might want to take a close look at a BSD variant to base it's system on because their agreements locks them out of all GPLv3 software.

[karellen]

well, we'll wait and see what happens. good or bad. gpl 3 has stiil some way to go...and novell the same, they had losses in the last months if I'm not wrong

[Shay Stephens]

I have grown to suspect anything Microsoft does. I do not trust that the deal with Novell is anything other than a trap of some kind. The burden to prove that wrong is on them. Until then, I treat it as I treat other untrusted sources. So I guess you could say I have instituted my own own boycott of sorts, but it's more like waiting to see if it is a trap or not. Until I can tell one way or the other, it's hands off for me.

[nocturn]

well, we'll wait and see what happens. good or bad. gpl 3 has stiil some way to go...and novell the same, they had losses in the last months if I'm not wrong

The GPLv3 should be finalized last month and I read today that even Torvalds sees merrits in the latest revision. It will take some time before the massive uptakes happens, but you can be sure that the GNU utilities will use it very soon, which are very much needed to make a distro work.

Novell did take some losses and it will remain to be seen if their allianation from the community will be worth the added sales.

I'm joining the boycott in any case.

[Adamant1988]

well, we'll wait and see what happens. good or bad. gpl 3 has stiil some way to go...and novell the same, they had losses in the last months if I'm not wrong

Actually a quick look at Google's stock quotes feature suggests that Novell (NOVL) has been seeing some growth lately. I will not use or support the use of openSuSE/SLED until I see the the aftermath of the GPL v3 and see how Novell responds to the community's response.

[karellen]

momentarily I'm much into ubuntu to use any other linux distro. at least for the next months. edgy, then feisty fawn (besides xp) and nothing more

[Yossarian]

It makes sense that Microsoft is interested in interoperation between Windows and Linux. Its pretty clear at this point that Linux on the server isn't going away, and their Windows server software isn't so popular that they can just ignore Linux.

In the past MS has been interested in standards when they didn't have a clear monopoly. Its only after crushing the competition that they turn to lock-in.

EDIT: I'd just like to add that I installed opensuse 10.2 with gnome on my new pc and I'm very pleased with it. They've put alot of thought and hard work into developing a good system GUI, but you stil have the bash shell if you prefer to do things a little faster. I'll stick with this until the next update for suse comes out.

[floke]

If you read the Halloween memos it's clear that closed standards and formats are also seen as a way of crushing the opposition in the first place.

Things are never simple :(

[Adamant1988]

Honestly, I don't think Novell's pact with Microsoft presents much of a threat to open-source, but I *do* think it's an underhanded and sleazy way to try to get one-up on Red Hat. A crying shame too, I think.

[dca]

Guys, it's all about virtualization. That's the future. Ballmer knew MS is out when it comes to virtualizing Windows through a Linux box. It's the other way around. Nobody really cares about the ideologies of the single home user even if they are running Bill Gates' OS... The enterprise customers are where it's at. Heck, at least Ubuntu hasn't decided to create an openUBUNTU which doesn't work, is unstable, etc and let the user(s) test that out, fix the bugs so a couple months down the road Ubuntu Desktop vX can be released for $80 per seat...

I was really impressed w/ openSuSE 10.2, though. Very sleek and polished but we're talking about a crap-shoot a' la openSuSE 10.1... Some of their six month freebies are good, some stink until the SLED or SLES eds are released....

[cantormath]

Boycott Novell

11.27.06
DO NOT Buy, Use or Redistribute SUSE

http://boycottnovell.com/2006/11/27/do-not-buy-use-or-redistribute-suse/

boycott linux.......no. Boycott microsoft........yes! :)

I have suse on a box and it rox.......fast as hell...

[Adamant1988]

Source Article (http://www.novell.com/prblogs/?p=315)

We’ve consistently argued that customers should not avoid Linux because of intellectual property concerns. At the same time, we’ve provided a level of comfort (via indemnification, our patent policy and, now, with the Microsoft agreement) to those customers who do have concerns about the issue. We certainly aren’t out in the market telling customers to use our Linux because it has patent protection from Microsoft. We’re out there telling them to use SUSE Linux Enterprise because it’s a strong distribution that will integrate well into their mixed environments.

I suggest you read the whole article but I feel this is worth noting. Two sides to every story.

[rai4shu2]

A boycott is probably unwise right at the moment. However, if they hesitate to adopt GPL v3 or continue to make PR blunders, I will definitely not support the use of Novell products here.

[goumples]

I still fail to see why Novell went for this in the first place... They would've been much better served by telling microsoft to piss off.

[ThinkBuntu]

I would've tried openSUSE were it not for this Microsoft BS. Making some small pact to give Microsoft a contact in the open source community is one thing. But I feel that the deal could jeopardize open source software, specifically Linux systems, on the enterprise level in the US. Of course, people like us could still use it on our desktops or on small servers because mirrors from overseas will always make it available.

[Adamant1988]

I would've tried openSUSE were it not for this Microsoft BS. Making some small pact to give Microsoft a contact in the open source community is one thing. But I feel that the deal could jeopardize open source software, specifically Linux systems, on the enterprise level in the US. Of course, people like us could still use it on our desktops or on small servers because mirrors from overseas will always make it available.

Ok, how exactly do you feel the deal jeopardizes us? Look at it this way:

If Microsoft owns 'intellectual property' that the Linux kernel, or even Novell's own innovations depend on to work properly, they can sue all of us. Right? Right.

Ok, now assuming that the above is true, Novell's deal protects a small fraction of the greater Linux community from lawsuits, provided that they're customers and not free-loaders using openSuSE (free version). It's also noteworthy that even Canonical has made moves that give the users of Ubuntu some IP protection.

Perennial favorites: innovation and economic growth (http://www.novell.com/prblogs/?p=321)

So, how exactly does this deal threaten us as everyday users? I have to say I'm REALLY interested.

[nocturn]

Source Article (http://www.novell.com/prblogs/?p=315)



I suggest you read the whole article but I feel this is worth noting. Two sides to every story.

Yes, but despite Novell claiming this has nothing to do with Linux actually violating MS patents, the ink on the agreement didn't have time to dry before Balmer was publicly saying that it shows that Linux violates their IP and that distros need to come into MS compliance...

That means extortion money from all to MS. Thank you Novell for providing them with this ammo.

[nocturn]

A boycott is probably unwise right at the moment. However, if they hesitate to adopt GPL v3 or continue to make PR blunders, I will definitely not support the use of Novell products here.

They cannot adopt GPLv3 unless they change or undo this agreement. It's a clear violation of two sections in it.

[nocturn]

Ok, how exactly do you feel the deal jeopardizes us? Look at it this way:

If Microsoft owns 'intellectual property' that the Linux kernel, or even Novell's own innovations depend on to work properly, they can sue all of us. Right? Right.

Ok, now assuming that the above is true, Novell's deal protects a small fraction of the greater Linux community from lawsuits, provided that they're customers and not free-loaders using openSuSE (free version). It's also noteworthy that even Canonical has made moves that give the users of Ubuntu some IP protection.

Perennial favorites: innovation and economic growth (http://www.novell.com/prblogs/?p=321)

So, how exactly does this deal threaten us as everyday users? I have to say I'm REALLY interested.

This deal creates two classes of Linux users. Does with protection from the patent scam and those without, which is against the very principles of the Free Software movement.

It also turns Free Software into proprietary software as you no longer have the freedoms set out by the Free software principles (the right to redistribute with the same rights granted to you). That is the problem.

Patents are the very reason the GPLv3 was needed to protect the freedoms v2 set out to protect.

[Pobega]

Count me in on this boycott, being a huge FLOSS supporter myself I can't use anything that goes against the GPL without feeling like I'm restricting my computer.

Even if they fork OOo, do you think that will actually raise their percentage of the market enough to pass RedHat? .doc compatability isn't enough to bring drones of users to your operating system.

I'd love to see them get locked out of Linux development with the arrival of the GPLv3; I can see it now, "OpenSuSE BSD".

[Adamant1988]

Count me in on this boycott, being a huge FLOSS supporter myself I can't use anything that goes against the GPL without feeling like I'm restricting my computer.

Even if they fork OOo, do you think that will actually raise their percentage of the market enough to pass RedHat? .doc compatability isn't enough to bring drones of users to your operating system.

I'd love to see them get locked out of Linux development with the arrival of the GPLv3; I can see it now, "OpenSuSE BSD".

Ok, firstly:

Novell HAS NOT violated the GPL. That is FUD.
Novell HAS NOT / WILL NOT fork Open Office. The only thing they've done is add features to theirs that aren't currently in vanilla open office. Again FUD.
As the GPL v3 is drawn up right now, they are still legally allowed to distribute. So all this stuff about them being unable to distribute is FUD. If adjustments to their deal with Microsoft need to take place, they'll do that, but they're committed to protecting their customers.

Please read a little before you judge the company, the Ubuntu Forums are a terrible place for accurate information nine times out of ten. This forum acts as a FUD incubator sometimes.

[RedDwarf]

Yes, but despite Novell claiming this has nothing to do with Linux actually violating MS patents, the ink on the agreement didn't have time to dry before Balmer was publicly saying that it shows that Linux violates their IP and that distros need to come into MS compliance...

That means extortion money from all to MS. Thank you Novell for providing them with this ammo.
First: Linux infringes patents. In a world where the double click is patented you can not expect a project of the size of Linux (and other projects that form a distribution) to no infringe some patents. Not only from Microsoft, but from a lot of companies.
But anyway, Ballmer doesn't needs an agreement with Novell to say such a think: http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/exec/steve/2005/07-10WWPC.mspx.
Now, you could say is it more difficult to have to kind of understand a world with intellectual property, the answer is yes. And the open-source guys don't know what to do, they don't know how to license patents that they violate. Rumor is Linux violates about 274 patents, about 35 of ours, according to the press reports. I don't know these numbers off the top of my head, but this is what the press says. (Laughter.) And they too will have to innovate. They have to find a way to bring their inventions to market, appropriately packaged with licenses to patents from important inventors. We do that. When somebody says, you know, your browser isolates Eolas's patents, we have to go license the patent rights. We licensed patent rights from Sun last year. That was a major thing.
That's from "July 10, 2005", *before* the agreement.

They cannot adopt GPLv3 unless they change or undo this agreement. It's a clear violation of two sections in it.
Knowing exactly what two sections would be good for this discussion...
Anyway, GPL3 doesn't exists yet. There is no point in discussing it. But if you want to discuss the last draft (from March 28 ) I should note that the FAQ says ( http://gplv3.fsf.org/dd3-faq ):
Second, in the fifth paragraph, the draft says that you are prohibited from distributing software under GPLv3 if you make an agreement like the Microsoft-Novell deal. This will prevent other distributors from trying to make other deals like it in the future.
There is some bracketed text at the end of that paragraph which would let companies distribute GPLv3 software even if they have made such an arrangement, as long as the deal was made before March 28.
and that the Novell agreement was made before March 28.

But if the final GPL3 version is a probblem, Novell has already said ( http://www.novell.com/prblogs/?p=310 ):
If the final version of the GPL3 does potentially impact the agreement we have with Microsoft, we’ll address that with Microsoft.
If the agreement is incompatible with GPL3 Novell will change it to make it GPL3 compatible, yes. Where is the problem?

The agreement isn't violating GPL2 neither ( http://fsfeurope.org/projects/gplv3/tokyo-rms-transcript ):
What has happened is, Microsoft has not given Novell a patent licence, and thus, section 7 of GPL version 2 does not come into play.


What we need is a http://boycott-boycottnovell.com/, so we will stop seeing stupid/false news like the one about sub-pixel antialiasing.

[Adamant1988]

First: Linux infringes patents. In a world where the double click is patented you can not expect a project of the size of Linux (and other projects that form a distribution) to no infringe some patents. Not only from Microsoft, but from a lot of companies.
But anyway, Ballmer doesn't needs an agreement with Novell to say such a think: http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/exec/steve/2005/07-10WWPC.mspx.

That's from "July 10, 2005", *before* the agreement.


Knowing exactly what two sections would be good for this discussion...
Anyway, GPL3 doesn't exists yet. There is no point in discussing it. But if you want to discuss the last draft (from March 28 ) I should note that the FAQ says ( http://gplv3.fsf.org/dd3-faq ):

and that the Novell agreement was made before March 28.

But if the final GPL3 version is a probblem, Novell has already said ( http://www.novell.com/prblogs/?p=310 ):

If the agreement is incompatible with GPL3 Novell will change it to make it GPL3 compatible, yes. Where is the problem?

The agreement isn't violating GPL2 neither ( http://fsfeurope.org/projects/gplv3/tokyo-rms-transcript ):



What we need is a http://boycott-boycottnovell.com/, so we will stop seeing stupid/false news like the one about sub-pixel antialiasing.

I love you.

[deanlinkous]

Sorry no MS products for me....that includes suse!

[triberunner]

Knowing how MS feels and what they have publicly said about open source software and intellectual property it's very difficult not to be weary about the deal. Novell and MS working on a common business goals is perfectly fine. The patent agreements and "protection" after claiming linux and the open source community infringe on no less than 235 patents makes this deal smell rotten. This is definitely a case of keeping you friends close and your enemies closer. The linux/MS chess match just got a whole lot more interesting.

[tolgayucel]

I have migrated to Ubuntu after trying different types of Linux on my XP with VMware. Thanks to Ubuntu and Open Source Society, now I have the freedom to switch between any operating system I want. Today small companies and firms who use Open Source on their servers and PC's can switch between OS without the "monopoly" of MS. This enables them to cut costs and survive, retaining their competitive ability over bigger rivals, therefore ensuring better products and services for the consumer.
Although I do still use XP (partly) I have learned so many things with Ubuntu and about the open source community that I think now why did I not earlier used an OS other than Windows earlier. Because Linux has steep learning curve compared to Windows, but I have the freedom over the software and can use my brain to overcome problems regarding networking and installing.
I don't want to see MS Office nor MS Player on LINUX! Therefore I am for the "boycott of novell".
There is another hook about Microsoft, which is "DRM" (Digital Rights Management). The aim of DRM is building a huge "Cartell" and eliminating "fair competition". MS claims it will stop "copyright" breeches???
Open Source, Open Society is the future, which ensures bringing better ideas, invention to life and any collaboration with MS is a danger to the whole society. Therefore it is imperative to warn everyone about this collaboration between "novell-MS".
Let's run MS on Linux with VMware only if we need to:)

[RedDwarf]

I don't want to see MS Office nor MS Player on LINUX! Therefore I am for the "boycott of novell".
Can you, please, point us to a link where Novell says that they will port MS Office or WMP to Linux?
There is another hook about Microsoft, which is "DRM" (Digital Rights Management). The aim of DRM is building a huge "Cartell" and eliminating "fair competition". MS claims it will stop "copyright" breeches???
If you want DRM to dissapear ask to the music/movie industry, no to Microsoft. Microsoft plays music files with DRM, but is the music industry who put the DRM on those files in first place. And anyway, what has DRM to do with the Novell/Microsoft agreement?
Open Source, Open Society is the future, which ensures bringing better ideas, invention to life and any collaboration with MS is a danger to the whole society. Therefore it is imperative to warn everyone about this collaboration between "novell-MS"
Can I understand that so any collaboration with opensource enterprises is good to the whole society? And so is good that Microsoft collaborates with Novell (or any other opensource enterprise), correct?

[justin whitaker]

As Adamant and Red Dwarf have pointed out, nothing prevents Novel/SUSE from making deals, distributing GPLv2 or v3 code, or forking anything if they so chose.

Now, on a pragmatic level, we can't get bogged down in a patent war with Microsoft, even if they wanted to exert their patents: noone in the Open Source community, outside of IBM, really has the warchest to go toe to toe with Microsoft for the next 10 years in court.

The fact is: Microsoft's offerings in the server space and in virtualization are lacking. They know this, and they are looking to remedy it. So, they talk interoperability, which is not bad, since we all could benefit from that.

Also, they know that Vista, and the production model that spawned it, cannot work going forward. I really wouldn't be surprised if Linspire ended up as the next Windows Home desktop...sort of a way to keep home users from injuring themselves on the internet. That's the paternal take they are taking with Vista, and I see them extending that. They could offer Windows Linux Basic and still comply with the GPL, either version. They probably wouldn't have to, since they made this Novell deal prior to the deadline.

So, they are doing what they always do: cozying up to players with the knowledge, and stealing everything that they can along the way. It's what they do.

Freedom is a blade that cuts both ways, methinks, and every effort to close the loophole that Microsoft has figured out looks reactionary...FSF basically got back doored by some very clever Microsoft attorneys.

[misconfiguration]

I'm not saying no, I manage lots of RedHat boxes and we're currently thinking about switching to SuSE, one thing these distro's have is an actually support model that makes large corporations feel 'safe'. I see nothing wrong with the merger personally.

[Liquid Punk]

People somehow seem to forget everything that Novell has done for the Linux Community and for the Linux Desktop, both GNOME and KDE. Novell develops many important parts and extensions of GNOME, they set the ball rolling on compositing effects with XGL and Compiz; SUSE has always been involved heavily with KDE and Novell funds the KDE project and employs KDE developers. Not to mention that Novell is the largest contibutor to OpenOffice outside of Sun. Earlier endeavors of SUSE are still great assets to the distribution and largely unmatched by other distributions, YaST and SaX are pretty much unparalelled in ease of use. People say that the deal aims to shut out other distributors but the OpenSUSE Build Service is the only server software of its kind to support multiple distros such as Fedora, Debian, Mandriva and Ubuntu.

Personally, I think this deal with eventually crumble legally under pressures on both sides from the GPLv3 and crumble in substance from being almost meaningless anyway; Novell's reputation in the Linux Community has been damaged by stigma over the issue, but remember, Microsoft paid them; not the other way around. Novell is hardly bending over to Microsoft IMO. That said, I don't like the way de Icaza is taking the distribution, he seems to use it as his personal plaything and ignores endeavors, like KDE in general and is forever critising open solutions like Python and Java in favour of his own copy of a proprietry framework.

[Erunno]

Don't bother. People have been exposed to their own hyperbole for far too long to recognize that Novell is not malicious entity that they everybody wants to see in it. I guess it's easier to think in terms of black and white.

[purdy hate machine]

Don't bother. People have been exposed to their own hyperbole for far too long to recognize that Novell is not malicious entity that they everybody wants to see in it. I guess it's easier to think in terms of black and white.

Indeed.
Of all these people who have “boycotted” Novell, I wonder exactly how many actually owned or intended to purchase a Novell product?

[igknighted]

Indeed.
Of all these people who have “boycotted” Novell, I wonder exactly how many actually owned or intended to purchase a Novell product?

Or even use their OpenSource products! Anyone using Evolution? Thank Novell. Any Mono apps (beagle, etc.)? Thank Novell. XGL/Compiz (not directly beryl, but it wouldn't exist without compiz, so throw that in there too)? Thank novell. Want to use the new silverlight plugin that MS conveniently didn't release for linux? Once again, thank Novell. I could keep going on if you want. The fact is that Novell has been one of the top (if not the top) corporate sponser for linux and open source in general. So while its "scary" that they signed a big boy deal with microsoft, lets give them the benefit of the doubt. They deserve it after all they have done for us.

[Note360]

I suggest we spell Novel as Nov€l from now on. just like M$

but seriously I am not sure if it actually matters. I would just suggest not buying SUSE linux, but all other open source products from Novel are fair game. I dont think M$ can have any control over Novels open source programs (or even Mono) so they are safe.

[igknighted]

I suggest we spell Novel as Nov€l from now on. just like M$

but seriously I am not sure if it actually matters. I would just suggest not buying SUSE linux, but all other open source products from Novel are fair game. I dont think M$ can have any control over Novels open source programs (or even Mono) so they are safe.

???

How about, MICROSOFT HAS NO CONTROL OVER NOVELL. Think back to the Cold War. Did the US admit to the USSR (or vice versa) that the other was stronger by signing agreements not to nuke each other? Did anyone assume that since these agreements were in place that either side could nuke neutral parties without repercussions? Hell no. The fact is this is basically a mutually assured destruction deal. Both companies are admitting that they hold a lot of patents that could damage the other, and are saying, "OK, we could both damage each other a lot. Lets agree to not sue (nuke) each other and try to work together in some areas that will benefit both of us". This is just like the warming periods of the cold war (the nixon/ford years IIRC?). So lets get what we can for it. Even if they don't have the nukes (patents) they claim they do, we aren't planning on suing them anyways and we get stuff out of the deal (money, interoperability, etc.)... how is this bad, and in WHAT way does that lead to MS controling Novell or any other linux group? It doesn't.

[leeward]

At first, I was upset about it. Mostly because I don't like MS's tactics and various shady business practices and I think there whole patent thing is pretty stupid.But, lately I've been thinking about it. I don't see anything wrong with what Novell did. Novell was not started by people like who hated MS or propriety software, and, from what I understand, didn't buy out SuSE because of some sort of RMS-like dedication to open FOSS or anything like that. Novell is a company, and, as pointed out before, has struggled to survive despite having very good products (I learned everything I know about networking on NetWare years ago). They did something to protect themselves, and actually will make sure that SuSE (and Linux in general) keeps growing and can more easily be adopted by companies (both those who want better interoperability and those who are actually concerned with MS's patent claims). I don't believe that the MS/Novell deal, in any way, undermines Linux, SuSE or FOSS.Novell merely made a good business move. A move that can, I think, help get SuSE and Linux adopted more.One problem I have always had with RMS and GNU in general, is the mindset they've gotten. No longer do they seem to promote freedom for users as much as they seem to just want to stick it to the man as much as they can. They talk about how they're pro-freedom, but it only extends to the freedom to use the GPL and FOSS. If you want to use a different license or do something they don't like, well, that kind of freedom, they don't support (i.e. I think FOSS is the best way to go, any anything I write will be FOSS, but if you want to close your source, I think that's your decision...your free to do so and people are free to use it, but RMS has different ideas). Something further proven with GPL v.3.

Anyway, my point is merely that The MS/Novell deal is not bad, in of itself. What Novell does with that will become a different story. The main point is Novell is a company that needs to do what they believe is in there best interest to survive. Of course, I would've been happier if that deal had never been made, but it was made, and I'm not going to boycott Novell or stop using SuSE because of it. Other venerable computer companies have made deals with MS, and nobody will stop using them. Think about it, most hardware companies (including the IBM) have made deals with MS, and so have a lot of software companies, but nobody stops buying from them. Novell was a company long before they bought SuSE, we can't expect them to do things the same way they would if they were a Linux company first and had a hatred/dislike for MS or a absolute love for Linux and FOSS. For instance, if it was Red Hat, then that would be different.

Just my two cents.

[Migs]

I think it's just funny to see how everybody has an opinion on the subject but does not even have a damn clue what the deal is about. Nobody knows exacty what the deal is about and like stated before in times where a "simple double click button action" is patetend it's wise Novell took this decision.

Novell is a business company not a community thing, they are a real target for other company's like microsoft when it comes on legal actions. For an example how could microsoft sue debian or gentoo? It's a shame that people here are completly blind and plain stupid not to understand how the real world works.

OpenSuse is a great distro and people should try it, i'm pretty sure its more polished then ubuntu at this moment. Take for an example how yast configures the xorg.conf file, ubuntu makes a complete mess of it. Check and compare especially the input sections mouse, touchpad and keyboard. You will be surprised what yast does and what ubuntu doesn't.
Nvidia driver installation is another example how easy Suse handles this. Adding the offical nvidia repository and select your disered nvidia driver and your set. How many people here in these forums cry why their ubuntu+nvidia drivers don't work? A lot and the problem is very simple; because most have to do with wrong a kernel-module! Most of the time Synaptic has marked an old kernel-module while their is beinig installed a newer nvidia driver. Otherwise an another known problem is the well known change "nv" to "nvidia" oops. None of this happens in Suse, how could this be?